**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Aug 26 02:59:57 2010
Aug 26 04:14:00 <altroute> is the opennfc the NFC stack for meego?
Aug 26 04:21:34 <altroute> is there a list of all the packages that make up a meego dist? e.g. what goes in the netbook edition vs mobile edition?
Aug 26 04:34:11 <dcthang> altroute: there is :)
Aug 26 04:34:26 <dcthang> check this out might help u: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.80.16.20100824.1/
Aug 26 04:34:52 <altroute> dcthang: jackpot! thanks!
Aug 26 04:35:20 <dcthang> welcome altroute
Aug 26 06:56:57 <qgilN900> good evening stskeeps
Aug 26 06:57:02 <Stskeeps> evening qgil
Aug 26 06:57:10 <qgilN900> :)
Aug 26 06:57:11 <thiago_home> hi quim
Aug 26 06:57:11 <johnx> evenin' qgilN900 :)
Aug 26 06:57:35 <qgilN900> I was wondering why there hasn't been any answers to http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001514.html
Aug 26 06:57:48 <qgilN900> when this was supposed to be a hot topic
Aug 26 06:58:12 <qgilN900> lbt here?
Aug 26 06:58:15 <thiago_home> I guess you're preaching to the choir
Aug 26 06:58:25 <qgilN900> ???
Aug 26 06:58:52 <Stskeeps> qgilN900: i think the fact we're heading for feature freeze in meego takes energy out of people a bit :)
Aug 26 06:59:14 <Stskeeps> qgilN900: but if you're wondering if it is possible to do what you're proposing, yes, that should be possible without closed bits
Aug 26 06:59:31 <qgilN900> fair enough, but then let's not put this topic for the CO meeting next week
Aug 26 06:59:57 <qgilN900> (that was what I was wondering, among other things)
Aug 26 07:01:23 <qgilN900> ... and btw stskeeps I lended an N900 with micro-sd card to romaxa
Aug 26 07:01:28 <Stskeeps> qgilN900: excellent :)
Aug 26 07:01:46 * thiago_home wonders if PR1.3 will make it easier to boot MeeGo
Aug 26 07:01:57 <Stskeeps> hopefully we should have the meego n900 on qemu images ready soon as wel
Aug 26 07:01:58 <Stskeeps> l
Aug 26 07:03:05 <qgilN900> midnight here & it's been a very long day
Aug 26 07:03:22 <Stskeeps> i'll make a response to the mail so we can continue the discussion
Aug 26 07:03:24 <johnx> qgilN900, midnight? you hanging out in my part of the world? :)
Aug 26 07:03:29 <qgilN900> thank you stskeeps for letting me know that my proposal was not a technical absurdity  :)
Aug 26 07:03:42 <qgilN900> we can talk about the rest when suits you best
Aug 26 07:04:05 <Stskeeps> qgilN900: not absurd, but we might need to drag in some API people from nokia to discuss what the implications are
Aug 26 07:04:14 <qgilN900> johnx, SF Bay Area is my home now
Aug 26 07:04:16 <Stskeeps> but i;ll answer and take it from there
Aug 26 07:04:34 <qgilN900> ok
Aug 26 07:05:07 <johnx> qgilN900, still a bit far to come visit, but if you're in Seattle stop by and I'll buy you a beer
Aug 26 07:05:39 <qgilN900>  maybe jumping on parachute in one of the visits to Portland...
Aug 26 07:05:54 <qgilN900> or trying to sell MeeGo to MS?  ;)
Aug 26 07:05:59 <qgilN900> who knows
Aug 26 07:06:24 <qgilN900> as you see, is time to sleep for my brain  :P  tomorrow more!
Aug 26 08:02:29 <vlj> hi
Aug 26 08:04:35 <amjad> hi
Aug 26 08:06:18 <vlj> ali1234: does dkms requires some patch in kernel in order to work ?
Aug 26 08:08:45 <thiago> no
Aug 26 08:08:49 <thiago> dkms is about creating modules
Aug 26 08:09:01 <thiago> it's just a set of scripts for managing the sources, builds and binaries
Aug 26 08:09:14 <vlj> but how it can "rebuild" a module when changing kernel ?
Aug 26 08:09:33 <vlj> I mean, how is it "aware" that the user has installed another kernel ?
Aug 26 08:09:44 <thiago> there's an /etc/init.d that "starts" dkms
Aug 26 08:09:55 <thiago> then it checks if all the installed dkms sources have their binaries compiled
Aug 26 08:09:59 <thiago> if they don't, then it compiles and installs
Aug 26 08:10:23 <vlj> that mean you have to reboot in order for dkms to rebuild any kernel module ?
Aug 26 08:10:29 <Bostik> vlj: dkms checks from running kernel version if the module is found; if not, the sources are built and module appears in /lib/modules/`uname -r`/...
Aug 26 08:10:31 <thiago> you have to reboot to start a new kernel
Aug 26 08:10:37 <johnx> or hooks in your package management system can handle it
Aug 26 08:10:56 <thiago> if you're installing a new dkms package, it should compile & install the module
Aug 26 08:10:57 <vlj> so the module are not loaded at the first start of a new module right ?
Aug 26 08:11:01 <thiago> if it doesn't, then use the dkms script to do it
Aug 26 08:11:25 <vlj> s/module/kernel
Aug 26 08:11:38 <thiago> dkms build -m packagename -v packageversion -k `uname -r`
Aug 26 08:11:42 <thiago> then repeat with install
Aug 26 08:12:03 <thiago> right, the kernel boots without the new packages
Aug 26 08:12:18 <vlj> so you need to reboot twice to get working kernel module ?
Aug 26 08:12:21 <thiago> no
Aug 26 08:12:33 <thiago> are you trying to replace a module that exists in the kernel? one that might be already loaded?
Aug 26 08:12:51 <vlj> it's for the nvidia kernel module
Aug 26 08:13:01 <vlj> it does not exist in the kernel ;)
Aug 26 08:13:10 <thiago> as long as the nvidia module is built & installed before X starts, no problem
Aug 26 08:13:17 <vlj> ok
Aug 26 08:13:22 <vlj> and for other module ?
Aug 26 08:13:23 * thiago has used dkms for the nvidia kernel for 3 years
Aug 26 08:13:29 <vlj> for instance wifi module
Aug 26 08:13:34 <thiago> same thing, unless you're replacing a module
Aug 26 08:13:51 <thiago> you just either need to ensure that the older module doesn't get loaded, or that you can unload it and reload the new
Aug 26 08:13:57 <vlj> ok
Aug 26 08:14:00 <thiago> or, you can also build the modules before rebooting into the kernel
Aug 26 08:14:03 <thiago> see the dkms command
Aug 26 08:14:46 <vlj> what is the command to "remove" a previous version of a kernel module ?
Aug 26 08:15:02 <vlj> I saw a "make" and a "clean" command in dkms config files
Aug 26 08:15:10 <vlj> but nothing to remove old kernel module
Aug 26 08:15:57 <johnx> you might want to boot your old kernel ...
Aug 26 08:16:00 <thiago> dkms remove
Aug 26 08:16:11 <johnx> ah, sorry. missed context
Aug 26 08:16:15 * vlj would like dkms to enter meego
Aug 26 08:16:33 <vlj> dkms remove is automaticaly done when installing a new kernel ?
Aug 26 08:16:58 <johnx> vlj, "Have to call you back. Recompiling the drivers for my cell phone."
Aug 26 08:17:08 <thiago> I think dkms remove is automatic when removing a kernel
Aug 26 08:17:26 <vlj> nvidia kernel module does not like to see older version of itself in a running system :)
Aug 26 08:17:45 <thiago> I've done upgrades of the nvidia kernel module
Aug 26 08:17:49 <thiago> it requires shutting down X
Aug 26 08:17:57 <thiago> but I usually postpone upgrading until I'm about to reboot
Aug 26 08:18:12 <thiago> I rebooted last week to upgrade to 2.6.35 and then took the opportunity to upgrade to 256.44
Aug 26 08:18:31 <vlj> johnx: I meant, for netbook version. It would allow easier management of non free kernel module
Aug 26 08:18:33 <vlj> ok
Aug 26 08:18:44 <johnx> vlj, :) I know. I just liked the mental image
Aug 26 08:18:49 <vlj> :p
Aug 26 08:18:57 <johnx> (not least because I've done things like that)
Aug 26 08:24:25 <arfoll> Anyone have any idea what could be wrong with my package? Community OBS is giving me this but the package seems extremely similar to my other ones and I definately have an rpm_build_root
Aug 26 08:24:26 <arfoll> http://pastebin.org/774222
Aug 26 08:26:26 <vlj> arfoll: there is no error msg
Aug 26 08:28:29 <Stskeeps> morning dneary
Aug 26 08:30:19 <dneary> Hi Stskeeps
Aug 26 08:31:08 <Stskeeps> dneary: was there a gnome conference recently where the hildon discussion was taken?
Aug 26 08:33:11 <arfoll> vlj, there is right at the end there is pipe closed
Aug 26 08:33:20 <arfoll> that basically makes my build fail completely
Aug 26 08:33:42 <vlj> arfoll: which line ?
Aug 26 08:33:50 <dneary> Stskeeps, There was a GNOME conference
Aug 26 08:33:59 <dneary> No specific discussion of Hildon that I'm aware of
Aug 26 08:34:09 <Stskeeps> hrm, ok
Aug 26 08:34:19 <dneary> The board did talk about it, but I am not privy to their discussions
Aug 26 08:34:28 <Stskeeps> they had discussed a session or something on gnome-mobile
Aug 26 08:34:45 <Stskeeps> i guess it'll probably end up being lost on the floor from gnome pov then :/
Aug 26 08:35:00 <dneary> Stskeeps, The situation is the same though - we still need a good idea of what changes would be needed to GTK+ to allow Hildon to be a 3rd party library shipping on top of a stock GTK+
Aug 26 08:35:25 <Stskeeps> dneary: i did do a proof of concept building hildon on top of stock gtk+ though, on meego
Aug 26 08:35:49 <dneary> Stskeeps, I recall
Aug 26 08:36:01 <dneary> Stskeeps, I also rememer seeing a shortish list of stuff that didn't work?
Aug 26 08:36:17 <Stskeeps> dneary: the problem is actually the apps, which write against maemo gtk..
Aug 26 08:36:29 <dneary> OK
Aug 26 08:36:57 <dneary> And can we do a diff from maemo gtk+ and hildon gtk+, and maybe integrate some of the Maemo specific stuff back into Hildon?
Aug 26 08:37:31 <Stskeeps> not impossible
Aug 26 08:38:17 <Stskeeps> the issue is also that there is many widget-specific changes, i believe
Aug 26 08:38:26 <vlj> arfoll ?
Aug 26 08:39:32 <Stskeeps> dneary: my biggest worry is that there's not sufficient push for it and that many app developers would resort to recoding in qt instead of rewriting for 'meego-hildon'
Aug 26 08:40:05 <dneary> Stskeeps, If we can make a shim layer (-compat) that makes it a simple recompile, we should mitigate that
Aug 26 08:40:29 <Stskeeps> mm
Aug 26 08:42:19 <Stskeeps> i'll take a glance at the maemo gtk+ diff
Aug 26 08:42:45 <arfoll> vlj, sorry stupid pastebin trunkated it
Aug 26 08:44:03 <arfoll> vlj, ok it's here (i cut the top bit off a little) - http://pastebin.org/774404
Aug 26 08:44:50 <Stecchino> The ideal MeeGo dev environment appears to be one with intel graphics. I there anyone here that is using a recent thinkpad with intel and would recommend it?
Aug 26 08:45:39 <vlj> Stecchino: Meego works on nvidia hardware too :p
Aug 26 08:46:03 <Stecchino> There are more reasons to avoid nvidia though
Aug 26 08:46:18 <arfoll> Stecchino, there are loads to avoid intel too...
Aug 26 08:46:21 <vlj> arfoll: it is probably a but within nvidia
Aug 26 08:46:35 <vlj> err
Aug 26 08:46:36 <vlj> obs
Aug 26 08:46:38 <vlj> not nvidia
Aug 26 08:46:42 <vlj> bug
Aug 26 08:46:56 <vlj> well the right phrase is "it is probably a bug within obs"
Aug 26 08:47:13 <vlj> when launching the check-buildroot script
Aug 26 08:47:14 <Stecchino> I'm pretty happy with my thinkpad R500 intel gfx. If the machine was just a bit thinner and lighter
Aug 26 08:47:29 <arfoll> vlj, lol that's what I was thinking but most of my other packages that are basically the same (I reuse the same spec file for the libs I have). I tried rebuilding a few and they seemed ok
Aug 26 08:47:34 <arfoll> I guess I'll wait
Aug 26 08:48:23 <arfoll> Stecchino, just stay away from GMA500/600 and you'll be ok with intel gfx
Aug 26 08:48:33 <vlj> I agree with that
Aug 26 08:48:59 <Stecchino> I'll see what I can get
Aug 26 08:49:06 <Stecchino> thanks for the help
Aug 26 08:49:31 <vlj> gma 500 is the crappiest gfx chipset I ever have
Aug 26 08:50:06 <vlj> on windows it can't even run properly opengl
Aug 26 08:50:16 <vlj> on linux it can't even run properly at all
Aug 26 08:51:12 <vlj> I'm wondering why intel is pushing moorestown in Meego if they can't even ship the driver for it
Aug 26 08:51:27 <arfoll> vlj, actually it can run very well - they just have 3 different drivers
Aug 26 08:51:48 <arfoll> none of which are fully featured
Aug 26 08:51:55 <dneary> Stskeeps, Speak of the devil...
Aug 26 08:52:04 <Stskeeps> mm?
Aug 26 08:52:06 <dneary> I just got an email of the minutes of the July 25 board meeting
Aug 26 08:52:49 <vlj> arfoll: and none of them works on meego atm ;)
Aug 26 08:52:50 <FunkyPenguin> is it possible to have both googlegadgets-meego & googlegadgets-gtk together?
Aug 26 08:52:51 <dneary> Stskeeps, http://pastebin.ca/1925741
Aug 26 08:54:10 <Stskeeps> dneary: 'With Maemo 6 and Moblin neither Qt nor GTK+ apps just work.' sounds a bit misinformed
Aug 26 08:54:41 <dneary> Stskeeps, It sounds like a secretary's summary of a more involved discussion to me
Aug 26 08:54:48 <dneary> But hey...
Aug 26 08:54:48 <Stskeeps> mm
Aug 26 08:55:30 <vlj> arfoll: did you put a #norootbuild at the top of your spec file ?
Aug 26 08:55:51 <arfoll> vlj, nope
Aug 26 08:56:10 <vlj> well, you should
Aug 26 08:56:17 <Stskeeps> my personal view on it is that it's a hell lot of work.. i was looking at maemopad dependancies yesterday
Aug 26 08:56:21 <Stskeeps> (the example hildon app)
Aug 26 08:56:55 <Stskeeps> most of those apis it required are either dead or need severe modification to fit with meego dbus
Aug 26 08:56:58 <Stskeeps> apis
Aug 26 08:56:59 <arfoll> vlj, just #norootbuild at the top?
Aug 26 08:58:35 <vlj> arfoll: # norootforbuild to be exact
Aug 26 08:58:49 <vlj> it might work. or not.
Aug 26 08:59:16 <arfoll> well it's worth a shot
Aug 26 09:00:14 <vlj> can I have a look at your spec file ?
Aug 26 09:00:20 <dneary> Stskeeps, For example?
Aug 26 09:01:51 <Stskeeps> dneary: let's start with libosso, modest, bluetooth connection dialogs..
Aug 26 09:02:15 <dneary> maemopad depends on modest???
Aug 26 09:02:17 <Stskeeps> from Mer i know the only way for those to work well is by having it in a maemo desktop setting
Aug 26 09:02:23 <Stskeeps> yeah, send mail :)
Aug 26 09:02:32 <arfoll> vlj, it's not better - http://pastebin.org/774566 and the spec is here - http://pastebin.org/774579
Aug 26 09:02:41 <Stskeeps> there has been a lot of nasty coupling in maemo architecture
Aug 26 09:02:59 <arfoll> it only got further this time because I tried disabling some of the checks
Aug 26 09:03:22 <vlj> arfoll: remove -%(%{__id_u} -n) at the end of BuildRoot:
Aug 26 09:03:29 <X-Fade> Stskeeps: I guess it would be worthwhile to try to setup free M5 target to see how this works out.
Aug 26 09:03:44 <Stskeeps> X-Fade: at least we'd see the pain points early on
Aug 26 09:03:46 <arfoll> vlj, that makes no difference that was just me copying from one of my other specs
Aug 26 09:03:47 <vlj> and remove %{?dist} at the end of Release too ;)
Aug 26 09:04:19 <vlj> and remove rm -rf %{buildroot} in the %install spec
Aug 26 09:04:56 <arfoll> vlj, ok
Aug 26 09:05:05 <X-Fade> Stskeeps: Yeah, I guess I'll can take a look at it.
Aug 26 09:05:23 <vlj> rm in %install is a security flaw according to obs faq
Aug 26 09:05:37 <vlj> and %{?dist} is not defined in obs too
Aug 26 09:06:34 <vlj> arfoll: you're running it in local obs ?
Aug 26 09:06:46 <arfoll> vlj, I should fix that in my libmicrohttpd spec then - I was just copying it from there
Aug 26 09:07:08 <arfoll> vlj, no this is on the community OBS - and the changes made no difference I still get a broken pipe error
Aug 26 09:08:31 <vlj> well it may be a bug of obs
Aug 26 09:08:35 <vlj> :/
Aug 26 09:08:43 <vlj> I have no clue what is the issue otherwise
Aug 26 09:09:49 <nazgee> is anyone experiencing problems with UX fonts on beagleboard? Most of the words/menus look totally messed - there is no way to read these. If it helps - I am using beagleboard clone (igep0020), and beagle's handset kickstart file.
Aug 26 09:09:53 <arfoll> vlj, too bad, thanks for the help anyways
Aug 26 09:10:06 <Stskeeps> nazgee: think harbaum has same issue
Aug 26 09:10:11 <vlj> arfoll: what is you nickname in obs ?
Aug 26 09:10:16 <Stskeeps> nazgee: could you screenshot/take a photo?
Aug 26 09:10:16 <arfoll> arfoll
Aug 26 09:10:29 <vlj> thx
Aug 26 09:10:52 <nazgee> Stskeeps: ok, not a ptoblem
Aug 26 09:12:34 <arfoll> vlj, ok it's looks like a community OBS problem because my rpm builds in my private OBS
Aug 26 09:12:42 <vlj> ok
Aug 26 09:12:57 <vlj> maybe a bad worker
Aug 26 09:13:04 <vlj> or a bug in rpm
Aug 26 09:13:09 <vlj> report it to lbt
Aug 26 09:13:27 <arfoll> ok i'll do that
Aug 26 09:14:23 <lbt> arfoll: here is good
Aug 26 09:14:37 <lbt> X-Fade may see it too :)
Aug 26 09:14:48 <arfoll> lbt, ok - well my package (imlib2) is in home:arfoll
Aug 26 09:15:01 <arfoll> it builds fine in my OBS, but fails with a weird pipe error
Aug 26 09:19:42 <nazgee> Stskeeps: here is a photo of broken fonts: http://wgrajfoto.pl/pokazfoto/img0810/dsc00132ab4b.jpg
Aug 26 09:19:52 <nazgee> any help would be really appreciated ;]
Aug 26 09:20:15 <lbt> arfoll:  http://lmgtfy.com/?q=getOutputFrom%28%29%3A+Broken+pipe
Aug 26 09:20:40 <nazgee> i wonder if I did something wrong, or there is a problem with e.g. TI's opengl libraries
Aug 26 09:20:47 <arfoll> lbt, i've search for ages on the problem
Aug 26 09:21:06 <lbt> but it seems to be an rpm/spec issue - yes?
Aug 26 09:21:14 <Stskeeps> nazgee: that looks a bit funky indeed
Aug 26 09:21:22 <Stskeeps> nazgee: what version of sgx libs?
Aug 26 09:21:22 <arfoll> lbt, no because it builds fine in my local OBS
Aug 26 09:21:36 <X-Fade> Might be a prjconf issue.
Aug 26 09:21:50 <arfoll> X-Fade, I have no custom prjconf
Aug 26 09:21:52 <nazgee> Stskeeps: i had tried on 07 and 06
Aug 26 09:22:18 <lbt> clarify "local OBS" .... we have people doing a local build and calling it "local OBS" and people with a full OBS install...
Aug 26 09:22:29 <arfoll> lbt, full OBS install
Aug 26 09:22:37 <nazgee> specifically: GFX_3_01_00_07_libs and GFX_3_01_00_06_libs
Aug 26 09:22:44 <Stskeeps> nazgee: hm, odd
Aug 26 09:23:58 <nazgee> the only problem I had found so far is: AIGLX error: dlopen of /usr/lib/dri/swrast_dri.so failed (/usr/lib/dri/swrast_dri.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory)
Aug 26 09:24:15 <nazgee> I havent' correct it yet, though
Aug 26 09:24:37 <lbt> arfoll: and what's the difference between your OBS and this one?
Aug 26 09:24:59 <lbt> you should be able to see the prjconf etc for all projects for both
Aug 26 09:25:13 <arfoll> lbt, mine has rpmlint disabled
Aug 26 09:25:29 <lbt> and if you disable it here...
Aug 26 09:25:45 <arfoll> I could try but I figured the problem was before rpmlint
Aug 26 09:27:05 <lbt> OK. so it's not an OBS sysadmin issue... ie diskspace etc
Aug 26 09:27:18 <lbt> so we need to figure out where it comes from
Aug 26 09:27:32 <lbt> project configuration; prj version
Aug 26 09:27:34 <Stskeeps> if its the pipe issue, this happens on meego.com obs too..
Aug 26 09:27:44 <lbt> Stskeeps: sporadic?
Aug 26 09:27:53 <Stskeeps> mm
Aug 26 09:28:00 <lbt> the : getOutputFrom(): Broken pipe
Aug 26 09:28:26 <Stskeeps> yes
Aug 26 09:28:29 <lbt> is it something people hit randomly ... or is it more an FAQ
Aug 26 09:28:42 <arfoll> lbt, it doesn't help to disable rpmlint
Aug 26 09:28:43 <Stskeeps> hits randomly
Aug 26 09:28:58 <arfoll> Stskeeps, but it only happens on this package and all the time
Aug 26 09:29:05 <Stskeeps> excellent, reproducable
Aug 26 09:29:06 <Stskeeps> :)
Aug 26 09:29:09 <lbt> OK .. so maybe #obs arfoll
Aug 26 09:29:30 <vlj> lbt it works by me
Aug 26 09:29:52 <vlj> local build of his package
Aug 26 09:30:14 <vlj> but see
Aug 26 09:30:18 <vlj> https://build.obs.maemo.org/package/live_build_log?arch=i586&package=imlib2&project=home:vljn:branches:home:arfoll&repository=MeeGo_1.0_Core
Aug 26 09:30:22 <vlj> I branched his package
Aug 26 09:30:34 <vlj> I have the same error, but not at the same stage
Aug 26 09:30:53 <vlj> so it is an issue with remote obs
Aug 26 09:31:25 <vlj> err sorry it is at the same stage
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Aug 26 09:33:23 2010
Aug 26 09:35:27 <nazgee> is there a way to neable mouse cursor easily? I am using LCD display instaead of touchscreen, and using it w/o cursor is a bit... tricky ;] I can see it when using pure X, but not when mcompositor session is used...
Aug 26 09:45:49 <lbt> hi tekojo
Aug 26 09:46:01 <tekojo> hola!
Aug 26 09:47:13 <lbt> have you seen the latest thread on "Building apps which require proprietary code on the MeeGo OBS" http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001507.html
Aug 26 09:48:22 <lbt> Stskeeps: I'd missed your post
Aug 26 09:48:34 <Guest90120> hi
Aug 26 09:48:52 <Guest90120> ummmm is anyone there?
Aug 26 09:49:07 <Guest90120> look i know you're all busy and stuff but hello?
Aug 26 09:52:53 <tekojo> lbt sure I saw it
Aug 26 09:54:57 <Stskeeps> lbt: ah, you missed my post before sending yours?
Aug 26 09:55:04 <lbt> yes
Aug 26 09:55:31 <lbt> I think this is more a community/social issue though
Aug 26 09:56:28 <Stskeeps> it is a difficult one as you (likely) wouldn't want to build your gtk apps against m6 or meego, but what would peak your interest would be building qt apps for all three
Aug 26 09:56:42 <lbt> yes
Aug 26 09:56:58 <lbt> and the fact that after 6 months of building gtk apps on OBS for fremantle
Aug 26 09:57:13 <lbt> it's a "click" to upload a "lets see about meego then" test
Aug 26 09:57:26 <lbt> versus a complete learning experience
Aug 26 09:57:37 <Stskeeps> so, hrm
Aug 26 09:57:51 <Stskeeps> it is possible to make a m5 compatible target without the closed source..
Aug 26 09:58:18 <lbt> who cares... I really don't see the problem anymore? No one is actually complaining
Aug 26 09:58:29 <lbt> it's all "someone might"
Aug 26 09:58:51 <lbt> well, we've shouted about it now... we've raised it to the CO
Aug 26 09:58:58 <Stskeeps> are we speaking about the closed source or some other item? :P
Aug 26 09:59:04 <lbt> closed bits
Aug 26 09:59:06 <Kamyk_^> hello all :)
Aug 26 09:59:33 <Kamyk_^> I have one question - Did somebody install MeeGo on webdt DT-366 Tablet?
Aug 26 09:59:33 <Stskeeps> lo Kamyk_^
Aug 26 09:59:40 <Stskeeps> Kamyk_^: what kind of processor is it?
Aug 26 09:59:50 <Kamyk_^> AMD Geode™ GX 533
Aug 26 09:59:51 <lbt> Stskeeps: my point is... we seem to be holding back because of what might happen...
Aug 26 10:00:03 <Kamyk_^> it could be so old?
Aug 26 10:00:15 <arfoll> lbt, isn't that why people always hold back?
Aug 26 10:00:27 <Stskeeps> Kamyk_^: amd geode doesn't have SSSE3 so it won't work :/
Aug 26 10:00:29 <lbt> arfoll: heh
Aug 26 10:00:51 <Kamyk_^> Stskeeps: MeeGo need SSSE3?
Aug 26 10:00:55 <Stskeeps> Kamyk_^: right
Aug 26 10:00:56 <lbt> arfoll: we can now say "we asked for objections"
Aug 26 10:01:28 <Kamyk_^> Stskeeps: Do you know some Tables with SSSE3?
Aug 26 10:01:48 <arfoll> lbt, I'm pretty sure pure Free Software people have allready run away from the Intel/Nokia Meego
Aug 26 10:02:00 <Stskeeps> lbt: the question is also if this is meant to replace maemo.org extras or not..
Aug 26 10:02:11 <lbt> I'd say we now discuss it at CO level and propose to the TSG that we have done due-dilligence to identigy objections and now we "JFDI"
Aug 26 10:02:13 <lbt> Stskeeps: yes
Aug 26 10:02:31 <lbt> for harmattan - certainly
Aug 26 10:03:29 <lbt> and so it makes sense to migrate extras too... but we can't plan that until we know if this is an option
Aug 26 10:04:06 <Kamyk_^> I found page with: MeeGo on nonSSSE3 x86 Hardware
Aug 26 10:04:52 <Kamyk_^> It could be in future?
Aug 26 10:05:06 <Stskeeps> my personal opinion: show that with double packaging you can triple-compile your meego api app for m5, m6 -- cos that was the benefit we wanted to show by putting these things together, wasn't it? and to ease migration/differences between platforms
Aug 26 10:05:51 <Stskeeps> m5 users win as they get new programs that would ordinarily only have gone for meego/m6
Aug 26 10:06:14 <timeless> is there an url describing this double packaging?
Aug 26 10:06:29 <Jaffa> timeless: Presumably it's a .spec file for RPM and a debian/ dir for DEB
Aug 26 10:07:09 <timeless> how does one maintain this?
Aug 26 10:07:21 <Stskeeps> timeless: ideally qt sdk would write it
Aug 26 10:07:25 <timeless> does something magically convert one way or the other?
Aug 26 10:07:41 <Stskeeps> if done right, there shouldn't be much difference
Aug 26 10:07:55 <timeless> have you spoken to them?
Aug 26 10:07:56 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: i.e. from Qt SDK's .pro file or whatevrer?
Aug 26 10:08:06 <Stskeeps> Jaffa: for example
Aug 26 10:08:25 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: I doubt it does at the moment, though. And I bet it doesn't handle XSBC-Bugtracker, XB-Maemo-Icon-26 etc. Or exciting things like triggers.
Aug 26 10:08:52 <Kamyk_^> lbt: can you tell me somethings about install MeeGo on non intel hardware?
Aug 26 10:09:14 <Stskeeps> Jaffa: noone says that can't be added. i mean, spectacle retains changes in .spec across re-spectacle's for example
Aug 26 10:11:28 <lbt> Kamyk_^: not in general terms. The wiki is a good place to start. There is lots there
Aug 26 10:12:40 <Kamyk_^> lbt: oki thx
Aug 26 10:13:30 <Stskeeps> lbt: besides that, we have a load of packages in Mer that's very usable for our free-fremantle-api
Aug 26 10:13:58 <lbt> yeah... but this is about semi-official support for Fremantle
Aug 26 10:14:15 <lbt> I think the answer to "freedom" is MeeGo
Aug 26 10:14:20 <timeless> have you guys spoken to the MADE people?
Aug 26 10:14:24 <lbt> not "lets hack at fremantle some more"
Aug 26 10:14:47 <lbt> timeless: do they hang about on the official meego chan?
Aug 26 10:14:55 <timeless> dunno
Aug 26 10:14:59 <lbt> heh
Aug 26 10:15:07 <timeless> i've only really done f2f talks
Aug 26 10:15:20 <Stskeeps> lbt: they do, and publish minutes of meetings
Aug 26 10:16:06 * timeless gave them a todo list
Aug 26 10:16:30 <timeless> they watched as i struggled through most of their product
Aug 26 10:16:39 <timeless> and we took notes :)
Aug 26 10:18:16 <lbt> Stskeeps: OK ... I don't hear much about it other than the meetings
Aug 26 10:18:35 <Stskeeps> lbt: #meego-sdk, was advertised in the toolchain meeting
Aug 26 10:19:33 <timeless> stskeeps: do they have easy to find wiki pages?
Aug 26 10:19:39 <Stskeeps> timeless: /SDK
Aug 26 10:19:53 <lbt> bbl8r
Aug 26 10:22:32 <sivu> gnnhnh
Aug 26 10:22:42 <sivu> how can i make obs to publish rpms in :full
Aug 26 10:23:08 <X-Fade> sivu: Tick the 'publish' box on your project?
Aug 26 10:23:37 <sivu> x-fade, i mean the rpm files not build by the obs but existing in :full for dependency resolving
Aug 26 10:24:11 <sivu> if i symlink those to the published directory, they get removed after obs publishes next self built rpm
Aug 26 10:24:13 <X-Fade> sivu: bs_admin --rescan-repositor
Aug 26 10:24:19 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: The moment the dev has to touch packaging for the target OS'es conventions (e.g. icons, bug trackers & homepages), the cross-platform promise of Qt is lost.
Aug 26 10:24:20 <sivu> rescan doesnt do it
Aug 26 10:24:30 <X-Fade> sivu: Ah, don't export to that repo.
Aug 26 10:24:43 <X-Fade> sivu: Use the binary import repo as target.
Aug 26 10:25:14 <X-Fade> sivu: You can even make it a subproject?
Aug 26 10:25:57 <sivu> ah, yes
Aug 26 11:02:27 <messerting> Hi, in MicroB, is there any shortcut key to jump to the end of an internett page? Like "ctrl-end" or somehing? maemo/N900.
Aug 26 11:58:51 <creebefu> Hi
Aug 26 11:58:57 <Stskeeps> hi
Aug 26 11:59:13 <creebefu> I don't know if anyone can help me... I'm trying to install Meego on my Asus Eee.
Aug 26 11:59:45 <creebefu> I've put the image file on a USB Stick using unetbootin, which has worked fine.
Aug 26 12:00:05 <zs> use dd for that
Aug 26 12:00:16 <creebefu> It boots into it fine,  loads the relevant files, then gives me options to boot, install etc.
Aug 26 12:00:22 <creebefu> Whichever option I use, this comes up..
Aug 26 12:00:30 <creebefu> warning: cannot find root file system
Aug 26 12:00:41 <niala> hello,
Aug 26 12:00:49 <creebefu> create symlink /dev/root and then exit this shell to continue the boot sequence
Aug 26 12:00:51 <creebefu> hi
Aug 26 12:00:54 <creebefu> what's dd?
Aug 26 12:01:13 <zs> creebefu: dd if=/meego_image of=/your/device bs=4096
Aug 26 12:01:57 <creebefu> where do I type this ?
Aug 26 12:02:16 <zs> in terminal
Aug 26 12:02:46 <zs> what distro do you have?
Aug 26 12:03:00 <creebefu> I'm currently running ubuntu netbook edition
Aug 26 12:03:33 <zs> so open gnome-terminal or xterm :P
Aug 26 12:04:15 <creebefu> what do I put in place of /meego_image ?
Aug 26 12:04:24 <creebefu> and /your/device ?
Aug 26 12:04:37 <creebefu> I do apologise, I'm a n00b :d
Aug 26 12:05:41 <niala> maybe you can type 'mount' in your term if your usbkey is already mounted to see what device
Aug 26 12:06:07 <zs> creebefu: type fdisk -l
Aug 26 12:06:28 <Bostik> have any of you tried to override shlibs versions in OBS builds (for debian package) by using debian/shlibs.local ?
Aug 26 12:07:14 <Bostik> because either I'm doing it wrong or OBS worker somehow ignores the file; the thing does work as intended in normal builds
Aug 26 12:09:33 <niala> creebefu, meego_image must be replace by image you have downoaded
Aug 26 12:11:45 <creebefu> ok thank you
Aug 26 12:13:21 <creebefu> should my usb drive be formatted as fat32 or something else?
Aug 26 12:13:42 <zs> dont bother just use this command :)
Aug 26 12:16:30 <niala> why that's don't work?: find . -name 'gpk-*' -exec rename 's/./gpk-/a/' {} \;
Aug 26 12:17:42 <niala> i ll also try " instead of ' but that do nothing
Aug 26 12:19:20 <creebefu> it can't open the image file
Aug 26 12:19:30 <creebefu> do i have to put the img file somewhere specifically?
Aug 26 12:19:44 <zs> creebefu: where is your image
Aug 26 12:19:47 <creebefu> desktop
Aug 26 12:19:50 <niala> are you in good repertory ?
Aug 26 12:20:01 <creebefu> i've just called it meego.img
Aug 26 12:20:09 <zs> right but what is your username?
Aug 26 12:20:16 <creebefu> creebefu
Aug 26 12:20:36 <niala> may be you must be root
Aug 26 12:20:57 <zs> dd if=/home/your_username/Desktop/meego.img of=/dev/sdb bs=4096 <-- it could be something like this
Aug 26 12:21:38 <niala> be care if it's not sdb
Aug 26 12:21:52 <creebefu> yea it is sbd1
Aug 26 12:21:59 <zs> that's why I asked him for fdisk -l
Aug 26 12:22:01 <creebefu> right, now it says permission denied
Aug 26 12:22:10 <zs> be root then
Aug 26 12:22:14 <zs> sudo su -
Aug 26 12:25:03 <creebefu> fs, now it says no space left on device..., which is not true, as the device is 8GB
Aug 26 12:25:08 <creebefu> gr
Aug 26 12:25:14 <creebefu> well it's copied something, imma try it
Aug 26 12:28:35 <zs> use sbd instead of sbd1
Aug 26 12:28:59 <creebefu> ah ok
Aug 26 12:30:00 <spyro> hey folks,
Aug 26 12:30:12 <spyro> does anyone know if it is possible to get a session proposal modified ?
Aug 26 12:30:21 <spyro> (for the meego conf)
Aug 26 12:31:41 <creebefu> zs: still says no space left on device and has only copied 516 mb when the img file is 800mb
Aug 26 12:31:53 <Stskeeps> spyro: yes, you have until tomorrow sometime
Aug 26 12:31:55 <Stskeeps> i thnk
Aug 26 12:32:00 <Stskeeps> oh
Aug 26 12:32:01 <Stskeeps> modified
Aug 26 12:32:01 <Stskeeps> hrm
Aug 26 12:32:09 <Stskeeps> is there an 'edit' button?
Aug 26 12:32:09 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 26 12:32:15 <spyro> Stskeeps: I didnt submit it, and the person who did seems to be having trouble modifying it
Aug 26 12:32:17 <zs> creebefu: pm me fdisk -l
Aug 26 12:47:36 <niala> why taht don't work?  find . -name 'gpk-*' -exec rename 's/./gpk-/a/' {} \;
Aug 26 12:52:25 <jgaret> hello, i am trying meego on a touch only device (archos 9) I've successfully built an image thanks to this source (http://www.openaos.org/archives/508). The only thing missing is a touch keyboard (better if it opens automatically in any text fields, like with handsets)
Aug 26 12:54:12 <jgaret> is there something like that in meego ? I guess it might be in handset UX but I hardly find documentation on what is needed to have the handset UI working (other than using an already built img for Aava device (which won't work in my case)
Aug 26 12:58:37 <pavlix> jgaret: you could probably build an image for handet, just as you built the image you have
Aug 26 13:00:33 <jgaret> pavlix, do you know where is the documentation on the binary packages for handset ? (to know their names)
Aug 26 13:03:08 <jgaret> or some kind of debian tasks to install all needed packages
Aug 26 13:05:32 <jgaret> sorry, found them in patterns.xml in the repo
Aug 26 13:18:33 <spyro> does anyone know if it is possible to get a session proposal modified ?
Aug 26 13:18:39 <Stskeeps> file a bug
Aug 26 13:19:02 <X-Fade> Doesn't seem possible, no.
Aug 26 13:22:59 <pavlix> jgaret: fine, I don't know much yet, anyway :)
Aug 26 13:25:17 <jgaret> pavlix: that's ok for me, I'm not really used to rpm package (more using deb) but I'm giving my first try, time to build the image with handset infos and I'll try to boot it ;-)
Aug 26 13:26:33 <jgaret> what's the current version of meego ? 1.0.80 or 1.0 ?
Aug 26 13:28:06 <Stskeeps> .80
Aug 26 13:30:36 <jgaret> Stskeeps : thanks
Aug 26 13:30:42 <pavlix> jgaret: rpm packaging is very easy
Aug 26 14:30:56 <jniq> hi people! Should there be a zypp/er talk at the next meego conference, what would those of you comming there like it to be about? Any special subjects?
Aug 26 14:31:27 <Stskeeps> i'd like to hear about zypper at least, cos i don't know much about it
Aug 26 14:31:39 <Stskeeps> including scriptability and other things
Aug 26 14:34:33 <jniq> Stskeeps: alright, that would be an overview with i bit of focus on scriptability, great! any other ideas?
Aug 26 14:35:33 <Stskeeps> well, api and why it's better than yum or apt-get, naturally ;p
Aug 26 14:36:09 <RST38h> It is better than yum or apt-get because its authors did not like yum or apt-get, of course
Aug 26 14:36:21 <jniq> heh :O)
Aug 26 14:36:42 <Stskeeps> RST38h: currently, we have both yum and zypper
Aug 26 14:36:47 <Stskeeps> why exactly this is, i have no idea.
Aug 26 14:36:53 <RST38h> Stskeeps: yes, I know
Aug 26 14:36:54 <nazgee> This was asked here once (and received some feedback) but it actually led me to nowhere... Is anyone experiencing some problems with fonts dislplay on beagleboard? It looks like this: http://wgrajfoto.pl/pokazfoto/img0810/dsc00132ab4b.jpg
Aug 26 14:37:04 <Stskeeps> nazgee: there's a bug report about thi
Aug 26 14:37:07 <Stskeeps> search for garbled
Aug 26 14:37:08 <nazgee> and I have no idea what is causing this behavior
Aug 26 14:37:18 <nazgee> Stskeeps: thx
Aug 26 14:37:27 <RST38h> Stskeeps: You should also include yast and yast2 for completeness
Aug 26 14:37:27 <jniq> Stskeeps: http://www.listware.net/201006/meego-dev/68116-meego-dev-package-management-in-meego.html
Aug 26 14:37:34 * Ronksu needs to find a display to start playing with beagleboard
Aug 26 14:37:58 <Stskeeps> ah
Aug 26 14:38:19 <Stskeeps> nazgee: initial reaction is SGX core differences to the SDK you're using, maybe
Aug 26 14:38:36 <Stskeeps> nazgee: out of curiousity, where in .pl are you from?
Aug 26 14:41:57 <Stskeeps> jniq: you might know this.. if a package requires: foo.so, and at same time provides it itself, will zypper/yum figure this out
Aug 26 14:42:00 <Stskeeps> ?
Aug 26 14:42:13 <nazgee> Wroclaw
Aug 26 14:42:18 <Stskeeps> k
Aug 26 14:42:39 <Stskeeps> from warsaw here, living in poland, but originally from .dk :P
Aug 26 14:43:12 <kristian_m> all the download on http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Emulator_QEMU seem to be brocken. where can i get a working qemu? - or does any qemu do?
Aug 26 14:44:00 <RST38h> the message at this page says "Note: This page is under construction. Most links point to internal servers until July 31, 2010"
Aug 26 14:44:17 <RST38h> Which appears to be pretty explanatory
Aug 26 14:44:42 <Stskeeps> i think they're on a different package now
Aug 26 14:44:44 <Stskeeps> page
Aug 26 14:44:47 <RST38h> Nobody updated it AT LEAST since July 31
Aug 26 14:45:28 <Stskeeps> http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_with_QEMU
Aug 26 14:45:47 <jniq> Stskeeps: it's a bit unusual (why would you want it), but i guess zypper would not mind it :O) I/you can ask mls@suse.de to be sure - he's the author of the sat solver zypp uses.
Aug 26 14:46:18 <Stskeeps> jniq: someone screwing up somewhere in history so we need some odd packaging :P
Aug 26 14:46:48 <jniq> i see :O)
Aug 26 14:47:00 <jniq> Don't know about yum at all though...
Aug 26 14:47:23 <Stskeeps> well, i'll know tomorrow when everything catches fire ;)
Aug 26 14:48:38 <nazgee> Stskeeps: I am using OMAP3530- would you suggest manually rebuilding SGX libraries (against my kernel), then manually installing it on rootfs, and finally trying again? Or should I wait for bug being investigated?
Aug 26 14:49:10 <nazgee> btw- warsaw is not a place where I'd like to live ;]
Aug 26 14:50:25 <Stskeeps> hehe. i'm fine here ;) nearby airport, easy to escape
Aug 26 14:50:50 <Stskeeps> nazgee: doubt you can rebuild them unless you have some hard-to-buy source access :) does the SDK match with OMAP3530 ?
Aug 26 14:52:27 <nazgee> Stskeeps: I believe that it does
Aug 26 14:53:18 <nazgee> Stskeeps: I am near the airport too, but there is nowhere to go. They are everywhere ;]
Aug 26 14:53:21 <Stskeeps> hehe
Aug 26 15:05:24 <th3hate> Stskeeps, is it worth getting class 10 mmc for meego?
Aug 26 15:05:36 <Stskeeps> th3hate: not sure, i'm thinking to get it myself..
Aug 26 15:05:41 <Stskeeps> just to see the impact
Aug 26 15:06:04 <X-Fade> Class 6 over class 4 made quite a difference for me.
Aug 26 15:07:14 <X-Fade> If the step to class 10 is even greater, then it would be really nice.
Aug 26 15:07:25 <th3hate> the difference is significant nitdroid, it also eliminates heating issues
Aug 26 15:07:35 <th3hate> in nitdroid*
Aug 26 15:08:37 <th3hate> Stskeeps, you think it would be possible to boot meego's image from eMMC in the future?
Aug 26 15:10:44 <MohammadAG51> rsync to eMMC then boot
Aug 26 15:10:59 <MohammadAG51> can't see a reason it can't be done
Aug 26 15:12:13 <th3hate> MohammadAG51, it wont touch maemo?
Aug 26 15:12:21 <th3hate> no need to partition the emmc?
Aug 26 15:12:35 <MohammadAG51> you have to partition the eMMC
Aug 26 15:12:56 <th3hate> there's always a risk of losing the files on it
Aug 26 15:15:23 <th3hate> if class is not written on mmc it's probably class 2 ?
Aug 26 15:15:54 <Duckboot> th3hate: Probs - yes.
Aug 26 15:19:04 <th3hate> Duckboot, Nokia 2 GB microSD MU-37
Aug 26 15:19:07 <th3hate> any idea what class?
Aug 26 15:22:03 <Stskeeps> i wonder if i can even buy class 6/10 here..
Aug 26 15:22:53 <RST38h> Stskeeps: probably can, at twice the price :)
Aug 26 15:23:56 <th3hate> eMMC is class 16 afaik
Aug 26 15:24:11 <RST38h> eh?
Aug 26 15:28:42 <Stskeeps> th3hate: figure out if we can do root=LABEL=root without having a initrd
Aug 26 15:28:42 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 26 15:29:40 <th3hate> in grub.conf ?
Aug 26 15:29:51 <Stskeeps> no
Aug 26 15:30:01 <Stskeeps> this is a kernel command line :)
Aug 26 15:31:28 <th3hate> Stskeeps, you tell me.. can we :P?
Aug 26 15:31:41 <Stskeeps> dunno
Aug 26 15:31:41 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 26 15:33:12 <odin_> found a hotel for Nov under the shadow of Aviva for 61EUR/night, 9.99EUR/breakfast, 3EUR/hour parking while outside of your reservation www.grandcanalhotel.ie
Aug 26 15:33:41 <Stskeeps> 'grand' usually is a bad sign ;)
Aug 26 15:34:00 <odin_> hehe... photos on website look good enough for meh
Aug 26 15:34:35 <odin_> the 61EUR/night/room is using a 3day 25% discount scheme
Aug 26 15:36:52 <odin_> just deciding if I should get a car for 80EUR for the 3 days, I bet 2 taxi fares to airport would be over half that
Aug 26 15:43:04 <odin_> skip the car, 7.5mil from airport, just hope I can fight my way past football supporters on Wed 17th to get to airport 2h25m after planned closing time
Aug 26 15:53:35 <chakie> driving in dublin is not too much fun
Aug 26 15:56:29 <odin_> canned the driving idea did not seem much cost/convenience in it, is RyanAir much fun ?  I wonder.... seems to have the monopoly for me, ah well all booked now
Aug 26 15:56:56 <Stskeeps> it's about as fun as travelling in a packed van with geese
Aug 26 15:57:05 <Stskeeps> cheap, but it goes thereafter
Aug 26 15:57:05 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 26 15:58:43 <odin_> well this shall be my first lepricon flight with the infamous budget airline, hope I get a seat with that  (yes he is promoting standing room only flights to the regulators!)
Aug 26 16:00:30 <Termana> odin_: to be sure to be sure
Aug 26 16:01:34 <odin_> what was that ?   "take my own seat", I hear ?  I didn't see the seat in the surcharges so I guess I must lols
Aug 26 16:03:59 <odin_> can't complain the price is right, think my luggage is getting a window seat though (it has a more expensive ticket)
Aug 26 16:11:50 <CosmoHill> hey lcuk
Aug 26 16:53:50 <devmod> Hello, I am trying to run meego for netbooks on linux with an nvidia card, it keeps on crashing after the gray screen on a GLX error (BadMatch (Invalid parameter attributes) Any ideas how to get this working? The handset version works just fine on the same machine
Aug 26 16:54:04 <devmod> (Qemu approach)
Aug 26 16:54:23 <CosmoHill> I don\t think meego supports nvidia yet
Aug 26 16:55:00 <devmod> Not natively but for developers apparently it should work. The same release for handset works on Qemu on thje same machine
Aug 26 16:57:02 <lbt> woo!! conversation on the MeeGo/Maemo apps building \o/
Aug 26 16:59:26 <DawnFoster> lbt: :)
Aug 26 16:59:38 <DawnFoster> lbt: I really am trying to get an answer for you
Aug 26 17:00:35 <lbt> DawnFoster: I know... thank you :)
Aug 26 17:02:11 <lbt> I'm hoping we can get to the point where we say "look, this makes sense. No one minds. Lets recommend it as a JFDI to the TSG."
Aug 26 17:03:13 <DawnFoster> I'm hoping that we can just resolve it without taking it to the TSG
Aug 26 17:03:35 <DawnFoster> I emailed Imad / Valtteri to see whether they need to see it at the TSG or not
Aug 26 17:04:44 <lbt> DawnFoster: that'll do. A general comment at some kind of "community representation body" would be good though.
Aug 26 17:05:23 <lbt> I'm happy for it to be the "CO"
Aug 26 17:05:49 <Stskeeps> lbt: i think the problem of that might be that IT doesn't seem to be under CO anymore (i think?)
Aug 26 17:05:50 <lbt> Jaffa: you know about community representation...
Aug 26 17:06:18 <Jaffa> lbt: Which community? :-/
Aug 26 17:06:22 <lbt> Stskeeps: I would be OK for this to be a "the community, as represented by the CO, doesn't mind"
Aug 26 17:06:29 <lbt> Jaffa: MeeGo
Aug 26 17:06:37 <Stskeeps> either way
Aug 26 17:06:46 <Stskeeps> the question just has to be answered somehow and rubberstamped
Aug 26 17:06:47 <Jaffa> lbt: In the absence of any other body to represent the MeeGo community it either has to be the CO, or the TSG.
Aug 26 17:06:57 <DawnFoster> stskeeps: but it really isn't an IT issue as much as a policy issue
Aug 26 17:07:03 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: ah, true
Aug 26 17:07:05 <Jaffa> lbt: The TSG will have it go on an agenda and then go "oh, we don't understand, can we discuss it again later"
Aug 26 17:07:13 <lbt> Jaffa: exactly
Aug 26 17:07:15 <Jaffa> </cynic>
Aug 26 17:07:21 <lbt> so I want the CO to say "Say yes"
Aug 26 17:07:33 <lbt> and have prepared some material
Aug 26 17:07:48 <lbt> say "it's done the rounds twice with no serious dissent"
Aug 26 17:07:51 <Jaffa> lbt: So, for day-to-day representations of the community, the CO is what we've got. If it has to go to the TSG, the CO should represent the community opinion. And so far, no one in the community has raised any objections AFAICS
Aug 26 17:07:53 <lbt> "in our opinion"
Aug 26 17:08:10 <DawnFoster> to be clear, I've contacted Imad, Valtteri, Ibrahim and Quim to see if there are any objections
Aug 26 17:08:26 <DawnFoster> and asked if it should be handled by CO or TSG
Aug 26 17:08:39 <Jaffa> So if the CO isn't - or doesn't feel empowered to make the call - it can make represent the views of the community.
Aug 26 17:08:44 <Stskeeps> :nod: let's wait on the indication from there then
Aug 26 17:08:45 <DawnFoster> if there aren't any objections and it doesn't need to go to the TSG, we'll approve it
Aug 26 17:09:00 <lbt> excellent
Aug 26 17:09:11 <DawnFoster> if there are objections, then it will probably be escalated to TSG
Aug 26 17:09:12 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: Coool.
Aug 26 17:09:16 <Jaffa> -o
Aug 26 17:09:17 <lbt> then we can actually start to plan Maemo->MeeGo migrations
Aug 26 17:09:58 <DawnFoster> personally, I'm OK with it, but my email was designed to make sure that people really understood the implications of the decisions.
Aug 26 17:10:08 <Jaffa> Interestingly, this seems to highlight again the need for a body to condense the community opinion, as the CO - from what you've said (DawnFoster) - is just saying "this is an issue, what do you think?"; rather than "this is an issue, the community thinks X; what do you think?"
Aug 26 17:10:16 <lbt> it was a good summary DawnFoster
Aug 26 17:10:31 <Jaffa> (Maybe not "highlight again", just plain "highlights [for the first time]"
Aug 26 17:10:58 <lbt> ie "we need a council"
Aug 26 17:11:28 * Stskeeps doesn't personally see the need for a council, except maybe a 'union' of non-company-affiliated contributors
Aug 26 17:11:32 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 26 17:12:02 <j-b> Is OpenMax IL available on MeeGo?
Aug 26 17:12:22 <lbt> Stskeeps: what does it do in maemo?
Aug 26 17:12:29 <Stskeeps> lbt: what does what do?
Aug 26 17:12:33 <lbt> council
Aug 26 17:12:41 <devmod> \
Aug 26 17:12:50 <Stskeeps> lbt: not the best person to get to answer that question..
Aug 26 17:13:22 <lbt> heh... well, your description isn't *that* far off.
Aug 26 17:13:33 <lbt> though a tad ... coloured
Aug 26 17:14:23 <lbt> I think MeeGo still needs some way to channel input from "the masses" if it is to be more than a corporate coalition
Aug 26 17:15:17 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: one thing i wondered the other day (and what we're a bit guilty of ourselves even in meego n900) - outside l10n, co, do we have any people who are officially part of any teams/wgs/whatever and not paid/in some linked contractual relationship with either intel or nokia?
Aug 26 17:15:57 <Stskeeps> like, in the actual meego product
Aug 26 17:16:04 <lbt> but... I'm off to gym... l8r and thanks for the ml comments
Aug 26 17:16:09 <Stskeeps> lbt: enjoy
Aug 26 17:16:12 <DawnFoster> not sure: I have a hard time figuring out who Nokia is paying :)
Aug 26 17:16:18 <DawnFoster> my guess is not yet
Aug 26 17:16:43 <DawnFoster> we do have a lot of people contributing who aren't at Intel / Nokia
Aug 26 17:17:00 <DawnFoster> Greg-kh and others from Novell for example.
Aug 26 17:17:09 <Stskeeps> yeah, novell counts i guess
Aug 26 17:17:11 <DawnFoster> and some patches from people like timeless
Aug 26 17:17:21 <DawnFoster> (outside of his day job - for fun)
Aug 26 17:18:04 <DawnFoster> once people start contributing more significantly, we can start nominating more people to named roles
Aug 26 17:18:27 <Stskeeps> i hope the obs upgrade coming up will help to some degree, as people can do anonymous viewing of the project
Aug 26 17:18:35 <DawnFoster> that's why I've been spending so much time putting together contribution guidelines and trying to help people find out how to contribute
Aug 26 17:18:36 <Stskeeps> and perhaps easier submit requests/patches and such
Aug 26 17:18:48 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: yeah - really been a good job by you :)
Aug 26 17:18:48 <DawnFoster> http://meego.com/about/contribution-guidelines
Aug 26 17:18:59 <DawnFoster> I've added an escalation process (as you know) :)
Aug 26 17:19:09 <DawnFoster> thanks!
Aug 26 17:19:10 <Stskeeps> even though it seems like the memo about signed-off-by didn't get around to everybody ;)
Aug 26 17:19:30 <DawnFoster> I think he was distracted or in need of coffee :)
Aug 26 17:19:35 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: lbt is right - that's basically a definition of the council: a way of abstracting and forming a view of the masses so it can be represented in one go to "someone else"
Aug 26 17:20:03 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: yeah, same with me on mondays :)
Aug 26 17:20:04 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: For example, if the CO were to make a recommendation to the TSG of "what the community thinks", how long will DawnFoster wait for replies on the issue? :-)
Aug 26 17:20:39 * Jaffa 's never entirely been able to work out who Nokia's paying to work on maemo*.org*, and that's supposed to be under the council's purview
Aug 26 17:21:08 <Stskeeps> Jaffa: if dawn's fairly the same kind of character as quim as a community manager, issues don't just disappear into a black box without reminders :P
Aug 26 17:21:54 <DawnFoster> I just don't see "the community" as something separate that needs a council
Aug 26 17:22:01 <DawnFoster> we are all part of the community
Aug 26 17:22:08 <DawnFoster> it seems redundant
Aug 26 17:22:15 <DawnFoster> I understand it for Maemo
Aug 26 17:22:26 <DawnFoster> but don't see how it really applies to MeeGo
Aug 26 17:22:45 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: So _will_ the CO make recommendations?
Aug 26 17:22:54 <DawnFoster> we've set up a more robust governance model with working groups, the Linux Foundation and more
Aug 26 17:23:11 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: ...and Quim found the council useful for gathering "what the community thinks"
Aug 26 17:23:46 <DawnFoster> Jaffa: if we are all part of the community, we see it first hand and don't need for it to be gathered.
Aug 26 17:24:01 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: I keep hearing LF mentioned as part of the solution; how does the LF umbrella help represent developer issues with the community OBS; or packaging requirements or ...
Aug 26 17:24:02 <DawnFoster> Jaffa: depends on the request
Aug 26 17:24:29 <DawnFoster> Jaffa: the LF owns all of the infrastructure for example. Server purchases, hosting, etc.
Aug 26 17:24:45 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: qgil's part of the Maemo community but doesn't do day-to-day development on Maemo, so doesn't feel the impact of the issues of the decisions taken around, say, maemo.org Extras
Aug 26 17:25:12 <DawnFoster> Jaffa: that's where it's different. The people doing day to day development are in the community
Aug 26 17:25:19 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: As they are in Maemo
Aug 26 17:25:30 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: I'm talking about people writing third party apps for the platform
Aug 26 17:25:57 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: Whether there are similar issues for people developing the platform is not something we know yet
Aug 26 17:28:25 <DawnFoster> if the development is happening in the open, and everyone is participating in the same community, the "community" isn't really something separate.
Aug 26 17:28:28 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: i think it's a historic thing.. even in maemo.org nokians were part of community and there was a seperation between those that had commit (and company affiliation) and not.. there was literally no people without affiliation that had commit to anything, and those that contributed got hired ;) so i think the black box of development is what many people fear again..
Aug 26 17:28:45 <DawnFoster> yeah, and that isn't the way we are set up
Aug 26 17:29:14 <DawnFoster> that's why I think the council made sense for Maemo, but I think that MeeGo is different
Aug 26 17:29:55 <Stskeeps> it is, once we get to the point of discussions being properly in the open, hence my point about the union of unaffiliated to push the issues they see as blockers for this goal :P
Aug 26 17:30:31 <Stskeeps> but thinking about that..
Aug 26 17:30:37 <Stskeeps> openness metabug is a better way to do that
Aug 26 17:31:57 <GeneralAntilles> I still think there's validity in a body that's elected and not beholden to managers.
Aug 26 17:32:29 <GeneralAntilles> Frankly, there's a lot of talk, but we'll see how it actually works out in practice.
Aug 26 17:35:44 <Stskeeps> on the other hand, a well voted bug on a issue seems more representative to me, than people speaking on my behalf..
Aug 26 17:36:03 <Stskeeps> often more indicative of hot topics
Aug 26 17:36:33 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: Perhaps
Aug 26 17:36:45 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: You might be right, it might be that we don't need a council for MeeGo in the future.
Aug 26 17:37:14 <Jaffa> However, we're not in that position now.
Aug 26 17:37:45 <Jaffa> (Not that I'm suggesting a council to act as a transition until that open collaborative community exists)
Aug 26 17:37:54 <DawnFoster> I'd rather work to fix any issues than put something temporary in place that will need to be disbanded later
Aug 26 17:38:03 <Jaffa> Of course
Aug 26 17:39:03 <GAN900> I see a need for a body outside of the likely cronyism of meritocracy and as somebody to represent unaffiliated contributors (beyond just devs)
Aug 26 17:39:23 <DawnFoster> I'd rather have people escalate any tangible issues - I tried to contribute x and couldn't because of y
Aug 26 17:40:12 <GAN900> But my focus isn't in platform or application development
Aug 26 17:40:50 <DawnFoster> what have you tried to contribute and what was the issue (I need specifics to fix things)
Aug 26 17:41:07 <Stskeeps> GAN900: well, that's where i would feel CO steps in to some degree, kinda like how quim manages the openness metabug - pokes people to do the right thing
Aug 26 17:42:20 <Stskeeps> if something's being slowed due to it's a corporate hot potato, it reflects badly on the project and is a press disaster, so it would probably not happen :P
Aug 26 17:42:51 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: Riiiight.
Aug 26 17:43:02 <Jaffa> :-/
Aug 26 17:43:24 <Stskeeps> Jaffa: something's = a openness metabug
Aug 26 17:43:24 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 26 17:43:28 <GAN900> DawnFoster, experience and expertise based on the 5 years I've been involved in maemo.org - the issues have been a general lack of response, stonewalling and an overall feeling of frustration and impotence.
Aug 26 17:43:31 <DawnFoster> I spend a lot of my time poking people to make sure that things happen
Aug 26 17:43:37 <GAN900> Perhaps that's a personal problem, though. ;)
Aug 26 17:44:01 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: There are other things corporate overlords can do which reflect badly on the project which won't trouble Nokia or Intel's PR machine.
Aug 26 17:44:45 <DawnFoster> example: I escalated timeless' requests on the mxr.meego.com to get it taken care of before his vacation
Aug 26 17:44:58 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: Takes a lot of pissed off developers to make it into the Financial Times (especially for a niche, catch-up platform)
Aug 26 17:45:09 <GAN900> I think the fact that most of the Maemo community's major core contributors are burntout and disaffected (unless they're paid) is an indicator of problems.
Aug 26 17:45:41 <Stskeeps> GAN900: well, we did have quite a brain drain of people contributing => finding a job
Aug 26 17:45:42 <Jaffa> Saying "we won't have those problems" can seem a little... optimistic.
Aug 26 17:45:54 <Jaffa> Actually, that's unfair. I'm sure we'll have whole new problems.
Aug 26 17:46:12 <Stskeeps> and now we get to feel the fun of a feature freeze..
Aug 26 17:46:15 <Jaffa> Which might be avoidable; so we constantly have to question practices and assumptions.
Aug 26 17:46:44 <DawnFoster> but look at it from my perspective. I can continue to make improvements to make things better as a whole, but I can't solve years of frustration coming over from Maemo
Aug 26 17:47:06 <GAN900> DawnFoster, you can, perhaps, avoid contributing to it, however. :)
Aug 26 17:47:09 <DawnFoster> I can work on specific issues, make improvements to processes and escalate things
Aug 26 17:47:13 <Stskeeps> yeah, we need professional psych help for those years :P
Aug 26 17:47:44 <Stskeeps> after getting MeeGo onto ARM i've learnt to assume oversight instead of malice though when getting really odd pushback :P
Aug 26 17:48:01 <Stskeeps> everything's not always a corporate agenda
Aug 26 17:48:14 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: Of course
Aug 26 17:48:35 <DawnFoster> GAN900: that isn't really fair (and I think you know that)
Aug 26 17:49:36 <Jaffa> I think it'll be interesting to imagine (and see) the day when there are at least two unaffiliated people on the CO; and how they got there; and how the "community" (and it's still not clear whether that'll extend as far as it does in Maemo, rather than fragmented, vendor-specific areas)
Aug 26 17:50:30 <GAN900> DawnFoster, when the kneejerk response to people wanting to test MeeGo on their Nvidia devices is "Why should Intel have to support its competitors?!" there's a problem.
Aug 26 17:51:16 <Stskeeps> GAN900: people did actually get meego running on nvidia instead of discussing it first
Aug 26 17:51:19 <Stskeeps> :P
Aug 26 17:51:29 <GAN900> DawnFoster, so there's a specific issue you can work on. Tempering the response of your devs.
Aug 26 17:51:58 <ali1234> Stskeeps: largely one guy... not much point to discuss with himself :)
Aug 26 17:51:59 <GAN900> Because an environment like that doesn't exactly bring in contributors by the dozens.
Aug 26 17:52:19 <Stskeeps> GAN900: that does also relate to doubt and uncertainty of how things are actually cooked up to be included in meego, though
Aug 26 17:52:20 * GAN900 switching to GPRS.
Aug 26 17:52:35 <Stskeeps> which is an issue that's improving
Aug 26 17:52:49 <DawnFoster> and do you think that I don't talk to developer privately when they say something they shouldn't?
Aug 26 17:52:53 <DawnFoster> I do this all the time
Aug 26 17:53:10 <DawnFoster> the reality is that what hundreds of developers say is out of my control
Aug 26 17:53:17 <DawnFoster> I can (and do) provide coaching
Aug 26 17:53:57 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: thanks for doing that - us developers can get really riled up at times about issues
Aug 26 17:54:33 <GAN900> back
Aug 26 17:55:07 <GAN900> Stskeeps, resend last highlight?
Aug 26 17:56:06 <Stskeeps> http://pastebin.com/QL74VBTc
Aug 26 17:59:44 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: One thing which would definitely help in those circumstances is someone else clarifying that that's not the position of X, Y and the project. In a diplomatic way, of course.
Aug 26 18:05:59 <GAN900> Stskeeps, thanks.
Aug 26 18:06:08 <GAN900> DawnFoster, well, good to know, thanks.
Aug 26 18:06:49 <GAN900> But perhaps it's also an opportunity to a nice blog post about how to go about getting things contributed that you want supported.
Aug 26 18:07:36 <DawnFoster> I did just put this together http://meego.com/about/contribution-guidelines
Aug 26 18:07:50 <DawnFoster> and we had a discussion about it in meego-dev
Aug 26 18:07:57 <DawnFoster> a blog post would be good, too
Aug 26 18:08:08 <DawnFoster> maybe next week
Aug 26 18:08:20 <DawnFoster> I'm plotting some other changes to add more mailing lists
Aug 26 18:08:34 <DawnFoster> http://wiki.meego.com/Community_communication
Aug 26 18:08:37 <GAN900> Things I can summarize on mwkn.net are helpful.
Aug 26 18:08:48 <DawnFoster> I'm planning to send it out to meego-dev today
Aug 26 18:09:05 <DawnFoster> and I need to work on some other documentation to go with it
Aug 26 18:12:14 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: we should probably have some irc guidelines, or just basic generic ones at some point
Aug 26 18:12:23 <DawnFoster> yep
Aug 26 18:12:28 <DawnFoster> and mailing list guidelines
Aug 26 18:12:34 <DawnFoster> good point
Aug 26 18:14:54 <Stskeeps> there was one topic that was up the other week, which was regarding discussions of leaks from companies involved in meego, how that lessens the ability of people to engage in what's essentially their workplace here..
Aug 26 18:16:26 <DawnFoster> yeah, that's a tricky one.
Aug 26 18:16:48 <DawnFoster> on the one hand, we don't want to be too control freaky about what people can talk about
Aug 26 18:17:08 <DawnFoster> but your point is really valid
Aug 26 18:17:27 <DawnFoster> I think he was surprised that the whole channel went silent when we started talking about it :)
Aug 26 18:18:46 <GAN900> Just send them to ##meego.
Aug 26 18:19:42 <GAN900> DawnFoster, anyway, I just hope you're aware of the perception problems MeeGo has in the Maemo Community and the frustrations many of those contributors are facing.
Aug 26 18:20:01 <GAN900> Whether or not you can do anything about it, I at least hope you keep them in mind.
Aug 26 18:20:18 <DawnFoster> GAN900: I am aware of it, but I can only do so much
Aug 26 18:20:46 * Stskeeps is seeing people slowly migrating though
Aug 26 18:20:48 <DawnFoster> and I think Quim is more focused on the Maemo / MeeGo transition
Aug 26 18:20:53 <Stskeeps> i mean, RST38h is looking at qt :)
Aug 26 18:21:11 <ali1234> Stskeeps: yeah 6 months ago he was all "i'll never use a gui toolkit!!"
Aug 26 18:21:23 <Stskeeps> so change is happening
Aug 26 18:22:07 <Stskeeps> and with the weekly n900 images, more people are poking about and trying it out, seeing it grow
Aug 26 18:22:08 <timoph> people are getting qobject_casted
Aug 26 18:22:53 <GAN900> I'm worried we've already lost a huge potention contribution base, though.
Aug 26 18:23:19 <Stskeeps> GAN900: in app development, maybe, in system development, i think we've gained
Aug 26 18:23:28 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: If I've got to learn a new API, why not go to Android; which still has better developer tooling (though Nokia have, finally, been massively investing in that)
Aug 26 18:23:42 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: No-one runs a system because it's a nice system though (except lkml readers)
Aug 26 18:23:46 <Jaffa> And RMS
Aug 26 18:24:03 <Stskeeps> Jaffa: it's over a year ago since it was said that maemo was turning to qt and gtk+ would be community supported..
Aug 26 18:24:34 <ali1234> why the false dichotomy? anyone sensible is interested in supporting as many different platforms as possible
Aug 26 18:25:03 <Stskeeps> it's not like it comes as a surprise that things may change, especially with the summit saying harmattan platform was -very- cleaned up :P
Aug 26 18:35:04 <GAN900> ali1234, from whose perspective.
Aug 26 18:35:39 <ali1234> mine. who elses?
Aug 26 18:35:47 <GAN900> As an individual contributor, I'm not interested in doing anything for a platform I'm not involved in.
Aug 26 18:36:08 <GAN900> Why would I do things for MeeGo if I own an Android device?
Aug 26 18:36:16 <GAN900> Only so much free time. ;)
Aug 26 18:36:19 <ali1234> oh, i see. i meant fromthe point of view of someone writing applications
Aug 26 18:37:35 <ali1234> the default position for someone like that is going to be android or ios, or more likely both. there is absolutely no chance of meego "poaching" them. the best you can hope for is that they *also* target meego.
Aug 26 18:39:36 <thiago_home> if the Atoms are 64-bit, why are we building MeeGo in 32-bit mode?
Aug 26 18:40:01 <ali1234> thiago_home: only a handful are 64 bit
Aug 26 18:40:08 <ali1234> just like only a handful support vx
Aug 26 18:40:09 <thiago_home> so not all?
Aug 26 18:40:13 <thiago_home> I see
Aug 26 18:40:25 <thiago_home> ali1234: well, we want to capture you for MeeGo by bribing you with Symbian
Aug 26 18:40:37 <thiago_home> you know, 120 million devices
Aug 26 18:40:52 <ali1234> symbian, yeah. no gtk on symbian... that's good enough reason to use Qt over gtk imo
Aug 26 18:41:13 <thiago_home> and by the segments where Android and iOS don't compete
Aug 26 18:41:25 <thiago_home> IVI, STB, netbook
Aug 26 18:41:49 <ali1234> at the end of the day "segments" don't mean anything, i just want my (hypothetical) app in as many app stores as possible
Aug 26 18:42:17 <thiago_home> if that's the case, then you want to do the least amount of development possible
Aug 26 18:42:22 <ali1234> correct
Aug 26 18:42:46 <thiago_home> http://cutehacks.com/2010/08/23/the-mobile-market-and-qt-featured-on-slideshare-net/
Aug 26 18:43:20 <ali1234> as long as the effort required is not greater than what i stand to gain from it, then i would port to any appstore going, no matter what segment it was aimed at
Aug 26 18:43:39 <ali1234> imo the effort required for maemo was way to high
Aug 26 18:44:08 <ali1234> but like you said, Qt brings symbian support, that means the potential rewards are much higher
Aug 26 18:44:55 <ali1234> but i am not going to pick one specific platform and pour all my effort into it
Aug 26 18:45:08 <ali1234> "don't put all your eggs in one basket" as they say
Aug 26 18:45:18 <thiago_home> yeah
Aug 26 18:45:41 <ScottishDuck> I'll put my egg wherever I want
Aug 26 18:45:44 <ScottishDuck> it's a free country
Aug 26 18:46:03 <ali1234> i see what you did there...
Aug 26 18:46:42 <ScottishDuck> also, I don't like the system having gtk and qt at the same time
Aug 26 18:47:29 <thiago_home> there isn't much more with gtk in the non-netbook segments
Aug 26 18:47:46 <thiago_home> even moblin was phasing gtk out in favour of clutter-based apps
Aug 26 18:47:48 <ali1234> i don't "like" it but i don't dislike it either, and if i one had to go, well, that's a no brainer...
Aug 26 18:48:41 * thiago_home doesn't have anything against gtk
Aug 26 18:48:52 <thiago_home> I just have more in favour of Qt, but all the success to gtk too
Aug 26 18:48:56 <ScottishDuck> I like gtk for desktop
Aug 26 18:49:11 <ScottishDuck> but if you're on a mobile platform, stick to only QT
Aug 26 19:23:31 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: The definitions of "community supported" for Qt & Hildon seem to be very different; and qgil's comments on the thread about community OBS & "supported" APIs leads me to question Hildon's viability (not discounting your excellent work at getting it working on vanilla Gtk+)
Aug 26 19:24:14 <merbot> Jaffa: i'm already questioning viability of hildon in a meego context
Aug 26 19:24:50 <Stskeeps> er..
Aug 26 19:24:55 <Stskeeps> yes, what merbot said
Aug 26 19:28:36 <Stskeeps> foo
Aug 26 19:31:08 <jeremiah> bar
Aug 26 20:03:00 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: i have some problems with my logger bot for some of the other #meego* channels, will be down for tonight while i work on a solution, should be back up tomorrow hopefully.
Aug 26 20:03:04 <Stskeeps> (just fyi)
Aug 26 20:03:26 <DawnFoster> ok, as long as no one say anything interesting, we should be fine :)
Aug 26 20:05:47 <tyan_> Just tried latest Meego coderop on N900 but it will not boot kickstart file sudo flasher-3.5 -l -b -k meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.16.20100824.1.ks
Aug 26 20:05:47 <tyan_>  
Aug 26 20:07:58 <Stskeeps> mikecomputing: you're trying to boot a text file :) you'll want to boot the vmlinuz after dd'ing the image (bunzip it first!) to the microsd card
Aug 26 20:08:59 <mikecomputing> arggh
Aug 26 20:09:52 <Stskeeps> don't worry, you're not the first
Aug 26 20:11:42 <GAN900> Is it worth bothering with yet?
Aug 26 20:11:47 <vlj> hi
Aug 26 20:11:56 <ScottishDuck> I remember my first attempt at linux was gentoo
Aug 26 20:11:59 <ScottishDuck> didn't end well
Aug 26 20:12:14 <Stskeeps> GAN900: go watch one of the videos and make your own conclusions
Aug 26 20:12:26 <GAN900> So, no?
Aug 26 20:12:27 <vlj> what is the best driver for keyboard and the best one for mouse ?
Aug 26 20:12:33 <vlj> I use evdev for both
Aug 26 20:12:42 <vlj> but I think it is not that great
Aug 26 20:12:51 <vlj> (alt+tab switch to vt for instance)
Aug 26 20:13:25 <Stskeeps> GAN900: didn't say no, :) i mean, thp made gpodder run on it, so it's not -horribly- uninteresting
Aug 26 20:22:36 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: But ohnoes, it's Gtk+! ;-)
Aug 26 20:23:04 <Stskeeps> yes, but not hildon, which is another can of worms
Aug 26 20:23:53 <ScottishDuck> Invited to Sweden courtesy of PPSE :)
Aug 26 20:24:00 <ScottishDuck> woo holiday
Aug 26 20:24:55 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: I don't think thp would claim the plain Gtk+ version was usuable in a handset UX.
Aug 26 20:28:17 <vgrade> about time, http://edc.intel.com/Software/Downloads/EMGD/
Aug 26 20:28:25 <vlj> !!
Aug 26 20:28:39 <vlj> am I dreaming ?
Aug 26 20:28:43 <vlj> there are there ?
Aug 26 20:28:47 <vlj> at last !!!!!!!!!!!
Aug 26 20:29:11 <ScottishDuck> >release date: january 7
Aug 26 20:29:23 <vlj> release date : 01 08 2010
Aug 26 20:29:30 <vlj> 07*
Aug 26 20:29:38 <vlj> ScottishDuck: 7 July actually
Aug 26 20:30:02 <vlj> hope they won't suck as much as IEGD ones did
Aug 26 20:31:14 <ali1234> why are all the downloads .exe files?
Aug 26 20:31:33 <vlj> because IEGD ones were
Aug 26 20:31:36 <ali1234> and why is it 1006.3 MB for a video card driver?
Aug 26 20:31:42 <ali1234> *106.3 MB
Aug 26 20:31:55 <vlj> because you have xp and linux version
Aug 26 20:32:11 <vlj> among other thing
Aug 26 20:32:29 <vlj> IEGD shipped with binaries for Xorg from 1.4 to 1.6
Aug 26 20:32:32 <ali1234> why is there a box to select operating system... which gives you the same huge exe file no matter what you select?
Aug 26 20:33:46 <vlj> you're asking too much question :p
Aug 26 20:34:25 <vlj> vgrade: you are making a .ks file for these ones ?
Aug 26 20:35:48 <vgrade> sec
Aug 26 20:37:11 <ali1234> actually there are two downloads, one for windows, one for linux
Aug 26 20:37:44 <vlj> this is the same file ?
Aug 26 20:37:51 <ali1234> no
Aug 26 20:38:12 <ali1234> it's different size
Aug 26 20:38:22 <ali1234> they are both windows exes though
Aug 26 20:38:29 <ali1234> what am i supposed to even do with that?
Aug 26 20:39:12 <vlj> well
Aug 26 20:39:24 <vlj> I have used IEGD drivers in the past
Aug 26 20:39:26 <ScottishDuck> All PCs have windows on them, obviously
Aug 26 20:39:34 <vlj> so I can tell you what you should unofficially do
Aug 26 20:39:38 <vlj> use wine
Aug 26 20:39:48 <vlj> install all the craps that come with the drivers
Aug 26 20:39:56 <ali1234> this isn't IEGD, this is EMGD
Aug 26 20:40:00 <vlj> then go in org.something.....drivers
Aug 26 20:40:03 <ali1234> apparently it is different
Aug 26 20:40:10 <vlj> well not that much I think
Aug 26 20:40:36 <ali1234> well i can't be bothered to unpack this
Aug 26 20:40:53 <ali1234> but from the FAQ it looks like they still didn't even bother to make a wrapper layer
Aug 26 20:41:25 <ScottishDuck> most intel stuff is made for intel, rather than the unwashed masses
Aug 26 20:41:39 <ScottishDuck> or at least thats the impression you get
Aug 26 20:41:40 <ali1234> lol, this exe contains JRE
Aug 26 20:41:45 <ScottishDuck> ...
Aug 26 20:41:49 <vlj> yup
Aug 26 20:41:55 <ali1234> brilliant
Aug 26 20:41:56 <vlj> for eclipse compatibility
Aug 26 20:42:36 <vlj> even if eclipse has no utility for this
Aug 26 20:43:08 <ScottishDuck> couldn't they have used CDT...
Aug 26 20:44:06 <ali1234> i don't even understand what this is supposed to be
Aug 26 20:44:20 <ali1234> what is all this eclipse stuff for?
Aug 26 20:44:35 <vlj> dunno
Aug 26 20:44:40 <ali1234> given that it doesn't have the source code for the driver, what do i need eclipse for in relation to this stuff?
Aug 26 20:47:16 <ali1234> i think the idea is that it can build driver packages
Aug 26 20:47:30 <ali1234> but only for supported OS
Aug 26 20:48:03 <ali1234> so basically all that crap is needed so that OEMs can make signed driver cabs for windows... and that's about it
Aug 26 20:48:55 <ali1234> well, except the windows stuff is in a different package
Aug 26 21:12:38 <slaine> evening all
Aug 26 21:12:50 <CosmoHill> hey
Aug 26 21:34:59 <vgrade> vlj, for IEGD we created a tgz of the required files which was placed in the ks directory and we added post scripts to the ks to copy the files into the filesystem along with a new xorg.conf.
Aug 26 21:35:53 <vgrade> I'm not sure if the legality of that approach as the tgz file was created from the IEGD exe driver
Aug 26 21:36:35 <vgrade> I would need to read the license to see what we can redistribute the EMGD files
Aug 26 21:37:23 <vgrade> If we can then the best way will be to build a rpm with the required files on the community OBS
Aug 26 21:37:59 <slaine> as far as I know the drivers aren't actually released yet and only available by signing an nda (hence why they where pulled from the repo)
Aug 26 21:38:16 <slaine> so that would make redist impossible
Aug 26 21:39:04 <slaine> unless you managed to get the pre section to ask the person to agree to the nda from the server and then downloaded the file directly and then used the post to process it
Aug 26 21:39:12 <vgrade> slaine, you missed , http://edc.intel.com/Software/Downloads/EMGD/
Aug 26 21:40:19 <slaine> clearly
Aug 26 21:40:32 <slaine> ah, still xorg 1.6 required
Aug 26 21:40:44 <slaine> so it's just a new version of the moblin driver
Aug 26 21:42:25 <vgrade> slaine, from the pdf, it supports Meego Linux (1.7.99 kernel 2.6.33-rc2)
Aug 26 21:43:07 <vgrade> http://pastebin.com/5FZWf1sM, end user license
Aug 26 21:43:18 <slaine> so it dies
Aug 26 21:43:21 <slaine> does even
Aug 26 21:43:26 <slaine> lol
Aug 26 21:44:34 <vgrade> which is disappointing as Meego has moved on somewhat since 2.6.33.  I'm not sure but there may have been changes in 2.6.35 in DRI
Aug 26 21:44:53 <vgrade> anyway, must not complain
Aug 26 21:44:59 <vgrade> this is progress
Aug 26 21:45:20 <slaine> it's glacial though
Aug 26 21:46:09 <slaine> I've had to turn away hardware suppliers 'cause they'd built their hardware around that chipset and there was no guarantee that we'd get driver support for our Fedora 12/13 based OS
Aug 26 21:49:20 <alt-route_> Hi, I thought that meego would use telepathy-ring, but it seems that the meego-handset-dialer uses ofono directly..
Aug 26 21:49:56 <alt-route_> I am a bit confused.. would telepathy ring continue to be used for managing calls?
Aug 26 21:50:10 <vgrade> I agree, you would not want to base a business on GMA500 but there is a lot of potential MeeGo recruits using it
Aug 26 21:52:39 <slaine> indeed
Aug 26 21:53:07 <slaine> as mentioned before, the sad thing is that it's a very capable setup, just hamstrung by all this IP crap
Aug 26 21:59:01 <vgrade> looking at the license it seems that a derivative work (ie tgz of relevant files) can be transfered to anyone 'provided such recipient agrees to be fully bound by the terms hereof'
Aug 26 22:00:18 <slaine> Then I'd suggest getting the pre section of the rpm to display that and exit if they don't accept it
Aug 26 22:01:36 <slaine> might make a buggery of a mic2 build though if the rpm is hanging there waiting for input, especially anything automated around mic2
Aug 26 22:35:32 <vgrade> Does this mean I can now distribute images (derivative works) as long as I get the downloaded to agree to the the license before download?
Aug 26 22:35:46 <vgrade> downloader
Aug 26 22:41:28 <CosmoHill> vgrade: like when you download the meego image for chrome on?
Aug 26 22:45:25 <vgrade> yes, but can I redistribute, how do I prove the downloder has accepted the EULA
Aug 26 22:46:32 <CosmoHill> they read the EULA
Aug 26 22:46:42 <CosmoHill> at the bottom they have "Accept" or "don't accept"
Aug 26 22:46:48 <CosmoHill> first takes you do a secure download
Aug 26 22:46:53 <CosmoHill> 2nd takes you to the home page
Aug 26 22:55:52 <CosmoHill> it's how Nvidia do it for their drivers
Aug 26 22:58:14 <vgrade> when I downloaded the emgd drivers no questions were asked
Aug 26 22:59:20 <CosmoHill> I'm watching people argue between XP and 7 in a linux channel :/
Aug 26 23:01:52 <vgrade> so I'm wondering if I could distribute a MeeGo image for GMA500 netbooks which would only run after the EULA was accepted
Aug 26 23:02:50 <CosmoHill> how would the chrome meego image know if I've accepted the EULA?
Aug 26 23:06:23 <vgrade> on booting the image, the EULA would be displayed and require an accept to continue the boot
Aug 26 23:07:05 <vgrade> I have downloded the emgd driver but cannot extract it until i accept the eula
Aug 26 23:08:20 <CosmoHill> ah
Aug 26 23:15:07 <devmod> Is there any sort of virtual keyboard for meego on netbooks?
Aug 27 00:07:09 <CosmoHill> night night
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Aug 27 02:59:57 2010