**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Sep 01 02:59:57 2010 Sep 01 03:00:23 is that right ali1234 Sep 01 03:01:52 no Sep 01 03:01:56 you have to turn the phone OFF Sep 01 03:02:02 completely al the way off Sep 01 03:02:24 then press u, then plug in usb Sep 01 03:02:29 it will turn on automatically Sep 01 03:02:29 take out the battery off, or is there a more ellegant way to turn completely off? Sep 01 03:02:45 press the power button then select "turn off" Sep 01 03:04:10 sorry for not being familair with the N900, just got one for this. Where is the power button Sep 01 03:04:35 its the small button in the middle of the top side Sep 01 03:04:37 tinny little sqare button on back long side of phone Sep 01 03:05:21 K, I just held it for about 20 seconds and herd a ding and the light went off, does this mean it is completely off? Sep 01 03:05:34 Appreciate you helping me Sep 01 03:05:37 yeah Sep 01 03:05:40 i think so Sep 01 03:05:49 if you just press it short there is a menu Sep 01 03:06:13 OK, so I think Im all the way off, Openning key board, holding down u key then plugging into USB, my fingers are crossed:) Sep 01 03:07:26 i see nokia on the screen but it is dark, can i let go of u key at this stage? Sep 01 03:07:37 yes Sep 01 03:08:02 OK, now just type what you showed me? Do I need to be in any special directory Sep 01 03:08:15 you need to be in the directory with the kernel Sep 01 03:08:43 what the kernel file name? Sep 01 03:08:51 don't know Sep 01 03:09:07 it will have zImage or vmlinuz in the name Sep 01 03:09:12 and be about 1.5mb Sep 01 03:16:36 can not find the kernel file Sep 01 03:19:24 I see two possible files that I downloaded, don't know if either is it. Image loaded to microSD wasmeego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.16.20100824.1-mmcblk0p.raw Sep 01 03:22:44 I have meego-handset-arm7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.15.20100817.1-vmlinuz-2.6.35-11.2-n900, is this the kernel file? Do I need to unpack it or was it unpacked when I downloaded it? Sep 01 03:23:06 yes that is the kernel Sep 01 03:23:33 it is not packed Sep 01 03:23:34 so in your command line do I need to type this file name or just be in the directory when I type the flash command? Sep 01 03:23:43 put in the file name Sep 01 03:23:46 instead of kernel.img Sep 01 03:23:54 Got it! Sep 01 03:28:08 Ali1234: Got this error - flasher-3.5: command not found Sep 01 03:28:24 guess I need to install it. Do you know where to find it? Sep 01 03:28:34 same place you got the kernel and rootfs Sep 01 03:29:08 just for my understanding is the rootfs file .raw we put on the microSD? Sep 01 03:29:14 yes Sep 01 03:29:33 http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/tools/flasher Sep 01 03:29:50 Gee I feel smarter already Ali1234, I might be starting to understand this a bit:) Sep 01 03:34:12 Ali1234: I went to the link but did not see a Fedora 12 download - a bunch of other Linux flavors. Do you know which one I should use with Fedora? Sep 01 03:34:51 the tar.gz one Sep 01 03:47:03 My Oh My this process is seriously tedious:) Not much has changed in the land of Linux since Berkley times. Every thing requires man manual steps:) Sep 01 03:48:11 possomfat, haha awesome nick Sep 01 03:48:35 possomfat, from WA? Sep 01 03:48:47 Ali1234, I appreciate all your help here getting me up to speed. I know this question will bug you but I'm running out of time. I've downloaded the flash tar ball and expanded it. I see the flash-3.5 file but it is still not command line recognized. What do I need to do in Linux to have it be recognized when I'm in another directory Sep 01 03:49:03 Yes from WA. U? Sep 01 03:49:38 possomfat, yep seattle Sep 01 03:49:50 Kirkland Sep 01 03:49:59 haha niice! i used to work in kirkland Sep 01 03:50:20 i'm on beacon hill at the moment . .about to move to issaquah soon Sep 01 03:50:21 I used to work in Seattle:) Sep 01 03:50:45 I like Issaquah Sep 01 03:51:08 Ali1234: U still there, don't leave me OB1 Sep 01 03:52:13 Ali1234: UR my only Hope:) Sep 01 03:53:15 swc|666: Looks like Ali's gone, do you know how to hook up flash-3.5 so it is recognized by the command line borne shell? I'm using Fedora Sep 01 03:53:30 yeah put it in $PATH Sep 01 03:53:46 no magic huh:) Sep 01 03:53:57 ln -s /path/to/flasher-3.5 /usr/local/bin/ Sep 01 03:54:13 echo $PATH to see where u can put it .. no magic required :) Sep 01 03:54:47 K let me try it Sep 01 04:00:35 so if it is in my home directory i'd type $ ln -s ./maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2/flasher-3.5 /user/local/bin/ - Is this right or do I need to abs the path? Sep 01 04:01:08 /usr/local/bin/ Sep 01 04:01:17 do this Sep 01 04:01:33 possomfat, paste the output of: echo $PATH Sep 01 04:02:20 past it where? Sep 01 04:02:25 here Sep 01 04:03:01 hello - /usr/lib/qt-3.3/bin:/usr/kerberos/sbin:/usr/kerberos/bin:/usr/lib/ccache:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/home/mark/bin Sep 01 04:03:40 like that? Sep 01 04:03:44 yeah Sep 01 04:03:46 so... Sep 01 04:04:03 ln -s ./maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2/flasher-3.5 /usr/local/bin/ Sep 01 04:06:46 I cut and pasted that line and ran it. Said it added it. In another shell I typed it and it still can't find it. Do I need to open a new shell or did I screw something up? Sep 01 04:13:25 swc:666 - tried doing it again still no love here is the output ln: creating symbolic link `/usr/local/bin/flasher-3.5': File exists [mark@dell-e1505 ~]$ flasher-3.5 bash: flasher-3.5: command not found Sep 01 04:13:28 ideas? Sep 01 04:21:41 Just abs pathed it. It worked Meego booting on N900, Hurray, I counted 2,237 steps. Not bad:) Sep 01 04:21:49 Thanks for the help!!! Sep 01 04:25:06 Help, Anyone know why the screen just suddenly locked on the N900 Mego load? Anyone know how to unlock the screen on the Meego N900? Sep 01 04:25:21 Go it Sep 01 04:28:15 possomfat, sorry was afk Sep 01 04:30:26 Got it thanks for the help Ali & SWC Sep 01 04:31:01 swc: what phone are u using N900 or AAVA? Sep 01 04:46:28 possomfat, N900 Sep 01 05:28:48 morn FatalSaint Sep 01 05:36:25 Eve Skeeps Sep 01 05:36:38 I just lost all my data.. not happy :( Sep 01 05:37:24 :( Sep 01 05:37:29 that's why you take backup :P Sep 01 05:37:31 or learn how to Sep 01 05:38:27 Didn't have the space. Finally got a new 1TB drive and setup RAID with my 500GB. Had my data moved to the second of the 1TB drive while I set it up. Manage to lose the data before copying it back over to the new raid. Fail. Sep 01 05:38:39 second half* Sep 01 05:38:49 ah :P Sep 01 05:38:57 ouch Sep 01 05:39:43 yeah. computer locked up while I was resizing the partitions. Now it's lost in neverland. I'm hoping gpart finds it Sep 01 05:40:01 so.. also should have kept a fdisk -l output somewhere too if I was smart Sep 01 05:40:05 http://funnyxd.com/funnystuff/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/did_you_backup.gif Sep 01 05:40:32 rofl Sep 01 05:40:42 thanks.. needed that one. Sep 01 05:40:50 np ;) Sep 01 05:41:05 FatalSaint, the thing you want is testdisk Sep 01 05:41:09 saved my bacon Sep 01 05:41:16 (and my files) Sep 01 05:41:16 yeah .. was going to try that next if gpart fails Sep 01 05:41:30 it's taking so damn long to scan though I'll likely have to go to bed and check it in the morning Sep 01 05:41:55 such is the way with recovery stuff Sep 01 05:43:03 True.. especially with drives this large Sep 01 05:43:42 I'm digging through a totally corrupted HFS+ partition digging up individual files as we speak Sep 01 05:43:45 mind numbing Sep 01 05:45:09 Really not looking forward, if I have to, to making a disc image and parsing through it with autopsy or something.. 300GB+ of data.. just not worth it Sep 01 05:45:41 yeah...apparently what I'm digging for is considered 'business critical' Sep 01 05:45:56 hah.. hope you're getting a pretty penny for it :) Sep 01 05:46:28 part of the sysadmin gig, but hours logged are hours logged. at this rate I won't even go in on friday :> Sep 01 05:46:38 lol Sep 01 05:46:40 comp time ftw Sep 01 06:50:29 hello everyone Sep 01 06:51:19 I'd like to know where is libgnome-control-center-extension exist on major Linux distribution Sep 01 06:51:32 is it MeeGo specific? Sep 01 07:53:15 morning Sep 01 07:59:38 *yawn* Sep 01 07:59:40 moin Sep 01 08:00:05 moin Sep 01 08:01:21 Moo-Myrtti Sep 01 08:01:39 Moo-o Sep 01 08:34:09 HELLO FLORIAN Sep 01 08:34:33 good morning Sep 01 08:34:57 BUT ITS AFTERNOON HERE IN PAKISTAN HAHAHA Sep 01 08:35:08 ISI: please click your caps lock button Sep 01 08:35:41 hello stskeeps Sep 01 08:36:05 how do you do florian Sep 01 08:37:05 heyyyyyyyyyyy Sep 01 08:37:12 ISI: we have ugt here I assume :) Sep 01 08:38:29 from whre you belong florian Sep 01 08:41:42 hello xnt14 Sep 01 09:00:43 morning' Sep 01 09:00:47 morn Sep 01 09:07:37 morn andre__ Sep 01 09:09:58 heja! Sep 01 09:10:07 ehlo andre Sep 01 10:02:22 hi Sep 01 10:02:34 is it possible to get wlan working inside the SDK ? Sep 01 10:02:59 Im having problems in both ways, chroot and qemu Sep 01 11:52:35 in OBS, what is the macro aliasing /etc/init.d/ Sep 01 11:52:47 ? Sep 01 11:57:07 ali1234: did you manage to get a working non sse3 meego ? **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Sep 01 12:36:29 2010 Sep 01 13:20:19 vgrade: ping Sep 01 13:44:06 Is there anybody run n900's meego ux on qemu? Sep 01 13:52:20 * CosmoHill returns Sep 01 13:56:01 Vlj, hi Sep 01 14:03:28 * mutoga ♪ Au café du canal (VOF..Peter p Père hé!! ♪ /!\ Sep 01 14:11:13 vgrade: I've written a little dkms config file for emgd that should build emgd kernel module Sep 01 14:11:53 vgrade: however I don't know where to put all userspace binary blob...do you know where they should go ? Sep 01 14:12:08 (with dkms no need for a specific kernel) Sep 01 15:20:50 Vlj, if you checjoit Sep 01 15:22:08 If you checkout the early joggler ks files on jogglerwiki,there is scrips im the post to copy he files Sep 01 15:22:08 Im on nrx Sep 01 15:22:46 Im on nexus shopping so cant give you an exact link, stskeeps can prob help Sep 01 15:30:16 * peb is gone. Gone since Wed Sep 1 11:44:00 2010 Sep 01 15:31:56 http://gitorious.org/mer/meego-joggler-ks/blobs/master/base-joggler.ks Sep 01 15:38:31 thx Sep 01 15:51:54 DawnFoster: is the TSG tonight still on? Sep 01 15:52:19 stskeeps: I wish I knew the answer to that question :) Sep 01 15:52:32 hehe :) figured as much Sep 01 15:52:37 I've been trying to confirm an agenda with Imad / Valtteri since last week Sep 01 15:52:41 still trying Sep 01 15:52:47 good luck then :) Sep 01 15:52:51 * Stskeeps gets back to food Sep 01 16:14:26 hmmmm i just realised something Sep 01 16:14:35 i can disable atags on u-boot, then it will leave the env alone Sep 01 16:20:47 Hello :) Sep 01 16:27:03 I really need to disable grammar checking on Adium Sep 01 16:27:47 stskeeps: the TSG is on! Sep 01 16:27:50 DawnFoster: yay Sep 01 16:28:01 in 2 and a half hours? Sep 01 16:28:07 yes Sep 01 16:28:09 yay Sep 01 16:28:11 19:00 UTC Sep 01 16:28:28 short agenda: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings#Next_TSG_meeting Sep 01 16:28:48 that is short Sep 01 16:28:58 that's really just one and a half items Sep 01 16:29:04 we had other items, but lots of people are still on vacation Sep 01 16:29:14 none of the presenters were available Sep 01 16:29:34 well, we can always go for a relaxing talk with whoever's available when we're out of time :P Sep 01 16:29:37 with summer about over, the TSG meeting should be more regular & with meaty agendas Sep 01 16:29:55 stskeeps: lots of time for Q&A :) Sep 01 16:40:32 does the netbook image support widgets? Sep 01 17:02:10 stskeeps: well, it's the first of the month and I'm starting to gather my metrics :) Sep 01 17:02:28 DawnFoster: putting up postit to get it done then :) Sep 01 17:02:32 stskeeps: no hurry at all - whenever you get a chance it would be great to have the IRC data :) Sep 01 17:03:54 stskeeps: is your todo list postit based? Sep 01 17:05:10 DawnFoster: i should really return to GTD Sep 01 17:06:17 I use Hiveminder - simple, web-based to do list that I can access from any device Sep 01 17:07:11 i wonder if i should be worried that bugs.meego.com functions as my work todo list at the moment.. Sep 01 17:07:27 and looks like a cool tool (hiveminder) Sep 01 17:07:29 * Stskeeps bookmarks Sep 01 17:09:04 stskeeps: I struggled with finding a task list that was simple but had decent prioritization & tagging. I tried about a dozen before landing in Hiveminder Sep 01 17:10:31 i guess my wife would appreciate the 'share task' feature :P Sep 01 17:13:10 she might appreciate it until you start giving her tasks :) Sep 01 17:13:37 she might like giving you tasks - take out the trash, clean the garage Sep 01 17:13:42 hehe Sep 01 17:14:22 #join #meego-meeting Sep 01 17:36:16 RhymeswAlbert: damn you Sep 01 17:36:27 you made me think the meeting had already started Sep 01 17:50:07 DawnFoster: how many people was it we were hoping for, for meego conference? Sep 01 17:50:14 600 max Sep 01 17:50:18 k Sep 01 17:50:39 we're doing pretty well - 200 people before we've even announced the program content :) Sep 01 17:50:53 * CosmoHill shakes fist at IRC Sep 01 18:33:15 The TSG starts in 30 minutes in #meego-meeting (friendly reminder): http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings Sep 01 19:00:11 hi, has anyone idea how to share internet via joikuspot to laptop which is running on meego? joikuspot access point isn't listed into wlan-list by default... Sep 01 19:11:31 not much for the TSG tonight then? Sep 01 19:11:43 lbt: light agenda Sep 01 19:11:48 I missed the start Sep 01 19:11:57 half the world (including many presenters are still on vacation) Sep 01 19:12:29 DawnFoster: I'm sure you can find something to keep them busy.... Sep 01 19:12:56 lbt: quim's doing most of the work as presenter anyway Sep 01 19:13:07 and we have lots of time for questions at the end Sep 01 19:15:29 so basically "see qgil for T-shirts" :) Sep 01 19:16:06 ;) lbt Sep 01 19:16:16 DawnFoster: you need a swag budget too! .... I'm thinking community ice-cream Sep 01 19:16:56 lbt: you and your ice cream *insert eye roll* Sep 01 19:17:07 * lbt needs pudding... Sep 01 19:18:20 hmmm wondering what the scope of "IT Infrastructure" is... maybe better to ask what lies outside it? Sep 01 19:18:21 * CosmoHill pokes lbt in the stomach Sep 01 19:18:24 no you don't Sep 01 19:20:01 I don\t think I've paid any interest to the meeting so far Sep 01 19:21:23 yay stickers Sep 01 19:21:31 i see lcuk agrees Sep 01 19:21:31 * lbt still doesn't have a T-shirt... :( Sep 01 19:21:41 indeed CosmoHill they are rare Sep 01 19:21:50 we need to get you one quickly lbt, summer is almost over Sep 01 19:21:51 did any actually get shipped over this side lol Sep 01 19:21:56 DawnFoster: can you ship some T-shirts to Hel? Sep 01 19:22:08 via england :) Sep 01 19:22:21 to tampere Sep 01 19:22:37 I have a G.Skillz sticker on my laptop :) Sep 01 19:22:54 it's only a matter of time before it becomes a structural necessity Sep 01 19:23:03 lbt: I think we sent a bunch to helsinki recently Sep 01 19:23:09 wow I spelt necessity first time \o/ Sep 01 19:23:11 also, we'll have one for every conference attendee Sep 01 19:23:31 I'm designing stickers too :D Sep 01 19:23:51 I wonder if I have some sticker paper for the printer Sep 01 19:25:26 Texrat: send some my way :) Sep 01 19:26:41 Texrat, i have a point to make about those i will raise at further questions Sep 01 19:27:50 sure timoph, and ok lcuk Sep 01 19:28:25 currently in addition to custom avatars I am working on charcters for regional meetups, like qgil's SF Bay and my DFW groups Sep 01 19:28:55 thx. my MeeGo netbook is currently only decorated with a kde sticker :) Sep 01 19:28:56 * lbt has his avatar Sep 01 19:31:47 my ultimate goal for characters is a community swag shop where anyone can submit designs... like cafepress, et al Sep 01 19:32:00 for caps, teeshirts, etc Sep 01 19:32:18 * timoph likes the idea Sep 01 19:32:36 Texrat, you could wait and bring this up in a mo :P Sep 01 19:32:45 lcuk ? Sep 01 19:33:13 I rarely ge tto attend these... had to squeeze this in Sep 01 19:33:40 hmmh. I could try to get some posters done when I have the time Sep 01 19:33:50 cool timoph Sep 01 19:34:23 now that we have crossed a hurdle on grassroots campaigns, we can start doing something Sep 01 19:34:37 yep Sep 01 19:38:04 Texrat: you make new meegons? Sep 01 19:40:35 mine is: http://crashdb.meego.com/theme/images/meego-crash-stats.png :) Sep 01 19:40:48 auke: he's my personal favorite Sep 01 19:40:57 yes lbt Sep 01 19:41:11 heh Sep 01 19:41:23 auke: http://en.gravatar.com/userimage/8175163/3570dcab74ec90342795ac542b85c05a.png Sep 01 19:41:26 custom avatars: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=1134 Sep 01 19:41:40 I am also looking into a generator as I said in meeting Sep 01 19:42:00 I'll bet I can code that in asp.net /me ducks from tomatoes Sep 01 19:42:17 Texrat: so... could you do a meegon argentine tango dancer? Sep 01 19:42:25 easily lbt Sep 01 19:42:35 check out the unicycle character I did Sep 01 19:42:50 hehe Sep 01 19:43:16 lol @ wizard Sep 01 19:43:21 nice work Texrat Sep 01 19:43:27 http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=8013&postcount=68 Sep 01 19:43:35 ty pupnik Sep 01 19:43:57 heh :) Sep 01 19:44:06 I will be putting all of them on a wiki page Sep 01 19:44:50 hahah! troll is hilarious Sep 01 19:44:58 :) Sep 01 19:45:04 http://meego.com/sites/all/files/users/u945/watkin5.png Sep 01 19:45:08 I'm just warming up Sep 01 19:46:02 lol no nsfw meegons pls :) Sep 01 19:46:08 why not Sep 01 19:46:53 Texrat: can you redo mine? somehow it looks terrible on the meego website Sep 01 19:47:06 Texrat: http://meego.com/sites/all/files/imagecache/user_pics/user_pics/picture-1562.jpg Sep 01 19:47:43 auke, ahh that looks like jpeg compression Sep 01 19:47:49 yeah Sep 01 19:47:53 I need to get used to hang around here (this is the voice of a former IRC junkie reluctant to approach this peculiar pleasure) Sep 01 19:48:06 qgil_: welcome back to the dark side ;) Sep 01 19:48:17 qgil_: you were an IRC juknie ? Sep 01 19:48:21 resistance is futile Sep 01 19:48:26 heh Sep 01 19:48:42 oh yeah, usual case of productivity affected by chat, long hours at night and all that stuff Sep 01 19:48:48 sure auke, that's the same as for stskeeps! I have that on my agenda Sep 01 19:48:50 qgil_: we should form IA Sep 01 19:49:08 Stskeeps gets forcibly enrolled! Sep 01 19:49:11 I tend to sit down and do these in batches Sep 01 19:49:22 can aybody of the community have a meegon? Sep 01 19:49:28 what, i actually missed a TSG meeting for once to sit and review presentations, i'm in recovery ;) Sep 01 19:49:36 of course sivang Sep 01 19:49:40 nice Sep 01 19:49:43 qgil_, i discovered something completely odd the other day. an irc channel that also has video stream and text to speech conversion. having it on and getting on with other work with just background people talking Sep 01 19:49:57 so maybe you have heard the news about MeeGo marketing & the proposal just approved http://wiki.meego.com/Talk:Community_Office Sep 01 19:50:00 can I please have a pony, hrm a meegon then? :) Sep 01 19:50:01 I guess we have a name for them now :D Sep 01 19:50:02 mind you, its like being at a stephen hawking convention Sep 01 19:50:13 I will make "meegon" the wiki page title Sep 01 19:50:14 Texrat: names are good :D Sep 01 19:50:23 Texrat: i want one! Sep 01 19:50:37 texrat will explode Sep 01 19:50:41 heh Sep 01 19:50:47 perhaps texrat a simple wiki queue would be good Sep 01 19:50:53 with nicknames and current avatars Sep 01 19:50:57 sivang, please use the request theread so I can keep track: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=1134 Sep 01 19:50:58 and then others can make them also Sep 01 19:50:58 ? Sep 01 19:51:00 You see the Marketing section and you see the subsections proposed Sep 01 19:51:05 what's up with all this activity on the channel now? was thre a meeting I missed ? Sep 01 19:51:07 right, lbt, in the plans Sep 01 19:51:14 are they all svg Texrat? Sep 01 19:51:20 yes, svg to png Sep 01 19:51:30 sivang, the meego TSG meeting occurs in #meego-meeting Sep 01 19:51:30 lcuk, all artists welcome! Sep 01 19:51:35 we need to come up with basic goals, strategy, actions and teams to implement it Sep 01 19:51:37 the usual stuff Sep 01 19:51:41 sure Texrat but people are just shouting out names Sep 01 19:51:55 use the thread :p Sep 01 19:52:14 damn IRC and email junkies... heh Sep 01 19:52:27 A stupid question, but what are we marketing, the MeeGo platform, the MeeGo project, or the MeeGo ecosystem? (Or all 3 - world domination is the goal) Sep 01 19:52:27 a pox upon you all Sep 01 19:52:42 qgil_: so do we have some high level statements Sep 01 19:52:45 What are the big marketing sales-pitch points used or potentially useful to sell MeeGo to existing developers? Sep 01 19:52:46 world domination is the goal but we won't do it alone here Sep 01 19:52:49 vision, goal type stuff? Sep 01 19:52:57 lcuk: yes, and normally after there's a bit more chatter than usual in #meego Sep 01 19:53:12 sivang, someone mentioned cute cartoons Sep 01 19:53:32 MeeGo needs to be the clear choice for anybody willing to ship a MeeGo product and anybody willing to buy a mobile product Sep 01 19:53:40 now, we need to see what steps are needed in order to get there Sep 01 19:53:54 see what are the steps that marketing and advocacy can sove directkly Sep 01 19:54:10 here's an example of what I was doing for maemo before qgil put the MeeGo brakes on ;) -- http://tabulacrypticum.wordpress.com/2010/01/09/maemo-community-outreach-dallas-open-source-saturday/ Sep 01 19:54:16 and seeing what are the steps where we marketing and advocate people can help the rest (platform developers, app developers, users, ODMs, etc Sep 01 19:54:22 I think that work can translate to MeeGo Sep 01 19:54:33 ah world domination, this was once ubuntu's goal :) Sep 01 19:55:04 qgil_: so I think we need some yeehaw stuff and some solid reality-level (eye watering) analysis Sep 01 19:55:27 I think having MeeGo as a default candidate for a new mobile product is a feasible goal - we have the elements in place Sep 01 19:55:57 *nod* Sep 01 19:56:05 many things need to happen and plenty of them are not directly related to marketing, but still we can help and have our part of the responsibility of success (or defeat) Sep 01 19:56:20 are other manufacturers being invited to the party? maybe to get some on board? Sep 01 19:56:22 can I suggest we have "a third party perspective" section too? Sep 01 19:56:53 pupnik: providing the elements for a manufacturer for being interested, sell the idea internally and get involved is a big part of the deal Sep 01 19:57:04 pupnik: whichi party? Sep 01 19:57:09 what is the status of the OBS upgrade ? Sep 01 19:57:24 qgil_: I personally feel that we need to discuss/state where we are; where others are and what deltas exist Sep 01 19:57:41 lbt: let's fill the current sections without creating a new one, and then let's spin off whatever efforts from the strong basis we will ave Sep 01 19:57:47 I'm a bit tired of empty structures, honestly Sep 01 19:58:10 ty for mentioning that Sep 01 19:58:15 OK ... but I don't feel I know how we compare to our competition... I don't have time to monitor them Sep 01 19:58:16 I'm even tired of discussing so much about structures, actually ;) Sep 01 19:58:38 so... a "mobile platform landscape" ? Sep 01 19:59:36 "Competitive intelligence"? It's a consequence, not a cause: if we want great marketing we need to know where are we strong and where are our weaknesses Sep 01 19:59:56 agreed Sep 01 20:00:37 first steps we should take within two weeks: your thoughts right now? Sep 01 20:00:48 the TSG wants to see a ToDo list, that's one Sep 01 20:00:54 lbt: I don't know off had what this discussion is around, but could this related? http://conference2010.meego.com/session/creating-first-choice-open-source-mobile-platform-learning-mistakes-past-and-beyond Sep 01 20:00:54 Our weaknesses can be brush over for a while, but to fix them we would need to do some development. Sep 01 20:01:00 do some introspection Sep 01 20:01:32 look at the main things meego has Sep 01 20:01:38 and assess each of them Sep 01 20:01:39 maclaver: of course. Marketing helps development focusing on the stuff that matters and also helps covering the present time with the best we have Sep 01 20:02:17 ie not much point having a "Linux is cool" campaign for meego devs... Sep 01 20:02:25 ok, simpler question: what do you think are the current blockers for good MeeGo marketing? Sep 01 20:02:25 sivang: yes Sep 01 20:02:38 sivang: exactly it Sep 01 20:03:00 qgil many thanks for championing the community marketing so strongly Sep 01 20:03:08 note to self: stop assuming people know basic linux stuff Sep 01 20:03:13 that kept me from giving up on it ;) Sep 01 20:03:14 sivang: this session proposal is interesting Sep 01 20:03:19 * thiago_home realises this was TSG-meeting time Sep 01 20:03:24 N900 didn't ring... Sep 01 20:03:27 timeless_mbp also felt this is very important and joined my proposal, we hope to get some concrete things from it Sep 01 20:03:31 lol thiago_home Sep 01 20:03:32 (because Exchange removed the alarm) Sep 01 20:03:38 qgil_: thanks Sep 01 20:03:41 so I blame Microsoft :-) Sep 01 20:03:51 thiago_home we all do Sep 01 20:04:05 ok, simpler question: what do you think are the current blockers for good MeeGo marketing? [12:59] sivang: yes Sep 01 20:04:06 * timeless_mbp nods Sep 01 20:04:18 qgil_: I've been thinking about this since day 0 of MeeGo, having other things in perspective and learning from past products and servics Sep 01 20:04:31 qgil_: has anything meego marketing related been published? Sep 01 20:04:37 thiago: It's not a bug it's a feature... Sep 01 20:04:37 qgil_: lack of clear messages Sep 01 20:04:43 qgil are you including grassroots in that question? Sep 01 20:04:47 "we're the best" .... uh huh.... Sep 01 20:04:50 timeless_mbp: yes, but your question already points to a problem ;) Sep 01 20:04:57 maclaver: like the Nokia server always giving "Exchange server is down for maintenance" ? Sep 01 20:05:02 qgil_: true Sep 01 20:05:07 qgil_: from my perspective, meego.com is a bit of a problem Sep 01 20:05:07 thiago_home: summery of the meeting: something was said about stickers and t-shirts Sep 01 20:05:09 http://meego.com/ Sep 01 20:05:10 Texrat: sure, grassroots is something that could be strong in MeeGo Sep 01 20:05:18 MeeGo blog Sep 01 20:05:18 Latest news from the team Sep 01 20:05:28 specially when the grassroots ar happy and invest their energies promoting instead of fighting among themselves ;) Sep 01 20:05:29 I've come up with a marketing slogan: "Do You MeeGo?" Sep 01 20:05:30 MeeGo Handset Project Day 1 is Here Sep 01 20:05:33 Submitted by valhalla on 30 June, 2010 - 08:10 Sep 01 20:05:38 qgil_: who are we addressing and, for each who, what's the message? Sep 01 20:05:41 surely something from June 30 isn't the latest news you can have? Sep 01 20:05:44 where are the users in all of this? Sep 01 20:05:47 that's the "above the fold" news Sep 01 20:05:55 * thiago_home has 2 t-shirts already Sep 01 20:05:57 it reminds me of dead content sites Sep 01 20:06:04 * sivang wants a t-shirt as well Sep 01 20:06:37 timeless_mbp: yes, managing the content of meego.com is one of the areas of the marketing team and yes, requires more attention Sep 01 20:06:50 I've been watching this exchange for a few minutes and I just can't stay quite anymore, I want Meego to work:) Sep 01 20:07:02 qgil_: i'd suggest that prime spot be replaced w/ a spot for the meego conference Sep 01 20:07:02 I know the rest of the platforms pretty well Sep 01 20:07:08 i'm aware there's a picture of the conf above Sep 01 20:07:10 but that's content free Sep 01 20:07:12 the web site should have a demo .flv in the center part, demostrating user enablement capability of some sort Sep 01 20:07:14 * timeless_mbp doesn't read pictures Sep 01 20:07:15 possomfat_: useful Sep 01 20:07:17 The biggest challenge that meego has is yacc Sep 01 20:07:28 possomfat_: less useful Sep 01 20:07:35 Yet another c compiler, analogy Sep 01 20:07:48 :) Sep 01 20:07:50 lbt: about target audiences a starting point could be http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html Sep 01 20:08:00 qgil_: but seriously, what have you guys done? Sep 01 20:08:02 Meego has to come up with a clear uniquess and can't just be another device platform Sep 01 20:08:05 qgil_: so this is a marketing discussion ?:) Sep 01 20:08:10 let's pretend i actually did see your marketing (point me to it) Sep 01 20:08:43 oh, and http://wiki.meego.com/Events is taking *forever* to load Sep 01 20:08:45 timeless_mbp: shirts, stickers, articles in magazines, top spots in main conferences... Sep 01 20:08:49 there is way to much momentum for the iphone and android platforms to just be another one Sep 01 20:09:04 this is probably an unwelcome old point, but it's quite a hinderance to getting acquainted with meego to not be able to run the GUI in some kind of fallback mode (e.g. don't do transitions or wipes, but transition in one screen update) Sep 01 20:09:08 qgil_: so please tell someone that they need better web servers for wiki. Sep 01 20:09:22 thus removing opengl2 requirement Sep 01 20:09:32 possomfat_: to a degree... OTOH these things are complex and the market is fluid. Sep 01 20:09:37 Safari can’t open the page “http://wiki.meego.com/Events” because the server where this page is located isn’t responding. Sep 01 20:09:48 qgil_: who are the decision makers in the meego market? Sep 01 20:09:53 pupnik: that's not a marketing thing Sep 01 20:10:03 marketing would offer you a flash video or flash tour of the product Sep 01 20:10:08 which you could run anywhere Sep 01 20:10:17 The marketing focus should be there, what makes meego unique and why do people want to use it? On an end user, hardware provider and carrier basis. Sep 01 20:10:19 you're talking about SDK or something Sep 01 20:10:19 timeless_mbp: don't conflate marketing and advertising Sep 01 20:10:27 tip: don't click to links in webchat mode Sep 01 20:10:35 grin Sep 01 20:10:37 qgil_: ouch Sep 01 20:10:57 lbt: we need to show how the better features (multi tasking and more) make MeeGo superior to other platforms without mentioning names. Sep 01 20:11:03 marketing addresses business and environmental analysis... not glitz Sep 01 20:11:11 guys, this is why we need to set the basics: goals, audiences, priorities Sep 01 20:11:31 qgil_: i'd argue you should start from audiences Sep 01 20:11:36 Yes, the pure linux is a good strength, also need to make easy app development a strength leveraging QT and more Sep 01 20:11:39 OpenGL required yes or not depends on the project strategy and whether this factor contributes to the success of the platform or not Sep 01 20:11:39 then goals, then priorities Sep 01 20:11:44 a decent strategic assesment of platforms for a new device would certainly involve devs looking at code amongst many other things Sep 01 20:11:53 and cost of feature implementation is a biggy Sep 01 20:12:09 lbt: you guys are more thinking bus-dev than marketing imo :) Sep 01 20:12:17 timeless_mbp: we can also do us a favour avoiding discussions about the little detals when there is so much to do :) Sep 01 20:12:27 timeless_mbp: bus-dev is one of our important targets Sep 01 20:12:28 we need basically to iterate and iterate Sep 01 20:12:36 if not the only target! Sep 01 20:12:41 I also think that meego focusing on some unique hard problems that put them ahead of the market is a must. Me too features and capabilities wont get there. Got to have something that is unique and can become a killer first to market feature Sep 01 20:12:42 qgil_: i'm going to vacation vacation vacation :) Sep 01 20:12:47 to be reached by other targets timeless_mbp Sep 01 20:12:52 lbt: first you need users to look at features, before devs Sep 01 20:13:19 sivang: of course... just defending pupnik to a small degree Sep 01 20:13:22 first to market ins't a requirement Sep 01 20:13:25 lbt: :) Sep 01 20:13:27 apple generally doesn't do first to market Sep 01 20:13:30 and it can still win Sep 01 20:13:33 We can start with the goal (world domination?) and audiences, and iterate from there. We could also work on competitive analysis of MeeGo versus other platforms along categories. Sep 01 20:13:38 microsoft also doesn't tend to do first to market Sep 01 20:13:41 and it still wins Sep 01 20:14:00 What, Apple lives on first to market Sep 01 20:14:06 nah Sep 01 20:14:13 maclaver: yeah - for instance a basic question is: how to make MeeGo the default candidate for device manufacturers and operators? Sep 01 20:14:13 timeless_mbp: MS isn't anywhere near winning on the mobile segment Sep 01 20:14:17 apple isn't the first to introduce component X Sep 01 20:14:22 convince them and millions will follow Sep 01 20:14:24 so far, WP7S is vapourware Sep 01 20:14:30 apple tends to be the first to get set of components A, B, C working well Sep 01 20:14:33 thiago_home: winning in other areas,with poor qualit on first to market Sep 01 20:14:34 but that isn't first to market Sep 01 20:14:40 it's first to market w/ a compelling product Sep 01 20:14:47 qgil: Can I add to that, how to MeeGo the default candidate for application developers too? Sep 01 20:14:50 qgil_: agreed ... but which mfgs? Sep 01 20:15:00 one shot chinese devices? Sep 01 20:15:03 Video Chat, a real web browser, visual voice mail ... and the list goes on and on. Yes someone did them first but they did take off until they were done right Sep 01 20:15:03 timeless_mbp++ Sep 01 20:15:29 possomfat_: that'll be the definition of not first to market then? Sep 01 20:15:36 thiago: my point is in general Sep 01 20:15:42 not specifically in mobile Sep 01 20:15:49 first to market is probably nokia Sep 01 20:15:53 and that's a losing winner Sep 01 20:15:55 maclaver: application developers will go for devices that a) sell a lot and b) are used by those developers with pleasure Sep 01 20:16:00 totally useless Sep 01 20:16:02 Get your dev hat off, ask anyone on the street and they will tell you that Apple did it Sep 01 20:16:02 not sure I agree.. Sep 01 20:16:18 and by first to market, i mean first to market 10-15 years ago, not today Sep 01 20:16:18 Nokia wasn't first to market on these new smartphones Sep 01 20:16:24 qgil_: what do the device mfgrs and operators want? I assume they want to brand their own UX Sep 01 20:16:28 no, i'm not talking about new smartphones Sep 01 20:16:31 Nokia was first to market on touch, but didn't capitalise on it Sep 01 20:16:32 i'm talking about ancient phones :) Sep 01 20:16:52 that's ancient history, not really relevant Sep 01 20:16:56 they were still in the "mobile segment" to use your phrase :) Sep 01 20:16:59 these arguments perhaps aren't helping :) Sep 01 20:17:00 unless MeeGo starts catering for feature-phones Sep 01 20:17:20 thiago_home: meego needs to have a quick adoption path downward to cheaper phones Sep 01 20:17:26 my point is that it's useless to just look at a 2 year window in one segment Sep 01 20:17:35 so you have to be able to talk about successes in other market segments Sep 01 20:17:40 pupnik: I can only say that the S40 death has been greatly exaggerated Sep 01 20:17:42 Another thought: even if you have a team within a company that is interested in MeeGo, nowadays that team will need to answer the question "But what is wrong with Android?" because this is the momentum now Sep 01 20:17:47 those guys are nowhere dead Sep 01 20:17:50 so meego is also about set top boxes Sep 01 20:17:53 how to help those guys winning the case inside their companies Sep 01 20:17:54 apple isn't a success *just* because of what it did in the mobile segment Sep 01 20:17:57 and diversity Sep 01 20:18:06 how does that matter here? Sep 01 20:18:11 they ship more phones in a month than Android and iPhone have combined, so far Sep 01 20:18:35 can meego in your car, in your pocket, on your walls make a difference? Sep 01 20:18:41 thiago_home: yes but cheaper and more commoditized is where mobile smartphone is going - meego can either swim with that frontier or be relegated to botique niche Sep 01 20:18:44 yeah, s40 is amazing if you look at unit volume Sep 01 20:18:55 i asked this before but... for the STBs... will there be a UX with EPG type functions, or will that be left up to the vendors? Sep 01 20:18:56 and in your disposable camera Sep 01 20:19:01 OK, we have to get real...look at phone sales market share by demographic. Sep 01 20:19:03 pupnik: MeeGo is currently high-end-only Sep 01 20:19:04 qgil_: market how meego is better in those terms to android, less java for example :) Sep 01 20:19:07 Nokia is nowhere right now Sep 01 20:19:14 This is why we need to get Meego right Sep 01 20:19:19 possomfat_: just the market leader in all segments... Sep 01 20:19:20 sivang: android doesn't have java ™ ;-) Sep 01 20:19:26 hah Sep 01 20:19:31 We have to look at things with an open lens Sep 01 20:19:33 Android is probably the more difficult competitor, more open than Apple, very strong hardward support, good tools, good services, and good application development possibilities. Sep 01 20:19:44 * thiago_home agrees with maclaver Sep 01 20:19:47 (And users can programme with the AppInventor :-) ) Sep 01 20:19:50 Android is the competition Sep 01 20:19:58 another important thing in marketing, and in our work producing MeeGo marketing: say it simple Sep 01 20:19:58 maclaver: right, so we can start by learning from it and seeing where we stand in its context Sep 01 20:20:00 qgil_: that is what I meant by having advocacy to compare us with the competition Sep 01 20:20:00 Nokia, is still the biggest mobile device company in the world but wont be for long if Meego Fails. Sep 01 20:20:07 or iow will i ever be able to replace my mythtv with meego? Sep 01 20:20:19 possomfat_: if MeeGo fails, Symbian fails and whatever S40 is doing fails? Sep 01 20:20:24 for nokia, qt is relevant, especially with symbian as the platform. meego is only a part of the picture. Sep 01 20:20:36 possomfat_: that's nonsense. Sep 01 20:20:36 thiago_home: and android is running on 60 euro tablet devices (worse than a 770 UX, but still) Sep 01 20:20:37 Nokia, can nail it if they realize that the OS and Services matter as much if not more that the physical phone design now Sep 01 20:20:50 possomfat_: sadly that's not how it will work Sep 01 20:20:57 all the little details are interesting and very useful... until the moment you can't sustain a point in simple terms Sep 01 20:21:03 s40 has too much market for nokia to fail as fast as would be good for the world Sep 01 20:21:04 pupnik: right. I agree MeeGo should run on lower devices. But we have to get it right on the high-end first. Sep 01 20:21:08 Nokia has great phone design, by in large, N900 not included in that comment Sep 01 20:21:18 qgil_: too much noise in here IMHO Sep 01 20:21:30 Yes, high end is all that matter for market direction right now Sep 01 20:21:52 Marketing back to meego-meeting? Sep 01 20:21:57 qgil_: so, is your primary audience companies looking for platforms to ship or develop for? Sep 01 20:22:18 timeless_mbp: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html Sep 01 20:22:26 Do you see Intel buying companies as fast as it can. Big shifts are happening and Apple and Android are making them happen. We have to realize this. Sep 01 20:22:52 possomfat_: that is understood Sep 01 20:22:53 Microsoft is not even a player in shaping what is happening in technology right now. Sep 01 20:22:57 possomfat_: that was understood three years ago Sep 01 20:22:58 android is doing things, but apple is actually stagnating. Sep 01 20:23:02 possomfat_: please provide a single sentence useful for the MeeGo project to fight that Sep 01 20:23:06 qgil_: in some ways, i'd suggest ignoring project contributors from a marketing perspective for a month Sep 01 20:23:12 you already have some people trying Sep 01 20:23:13 i dearly hope that it will be possible to disable transition animations and compositing Sep 01 20:23:22 but you don't have a good group of people working to shepherd them in Sep 01 20:23:25 Nokia, has to get this right or they will lose. They can not miss this or disastrous results will happen, a new phone leader will emerge Sep 01 20:23:26 and get basic widget functionality Sep 01 20:23:28 timeless_mbp: allow me to look beyond the next month :) Sep 01 20:23:33 pupnik: right now, no. But for future versions possibly. Sep 01 20:23:33 and until you get your first group of contributors integrated Sep 01 20:23:48 it's a bad idea to recruit people who would quickly become disgruntled Sep 01 20:24:06 thiago_home: you know where i'm going with that? lower-end devices, and meego development/testing in a VM (without opengl2) Sep 01 20:24:10 pupnik why not, Microsoft allows those options ;) Sep 01 20:24:13 * lcuk reads scrollback from what looks like important stuff Sep 01 20:24:21 qgil_: bah, why plan for a month from now when you can plan for this coming month now, and then plan for later later :) Sep 01 20:24:23 pupnik: lower-end devices, sure. But like I said, not now. Sep 01 20:24:31 lcuk: snr is about 0.05 Sep 01 20:24:32 (like after i get back from my vacation ;-) Sep 01 20:24:44 pupnik: and for testing, I'd rather do it outside a VM. Simulator, not emulator. Sep 01 20:24:56 I hope your not referring to me as being disgruntled, I'm a huge meego opportunity fan and am putting resourses toward the objective. This is why I want it to work Sep 01 20:25:07 timeless_mbp: hehe Sep 01 20:25:08 qgil_: for app devs, i think marketing should be mostly around the MADE stuff Sep 01 20:25:19 timeless_mbp: you were talking about reruiting contributors for marketing yes? Sep 01 20:25:21 if possible Sep 01 20:25:34 thiago_home: maybe it should be a priority - to let casual developers and otherwise-pressed-for-time developers quickly try compiling and running their stuff in some meego environment without dedicating a device to it Sep 01 20:25:50 pupnik: SDK yes Sep 01 20:25:52 possomfat_: sorry for picking on you - it's just that we can see already a lot of ongoing discussion about how bad the situation is and etc Sep 01 20:25:55 pupnik: I agree with you that is a priority Sep 01 20:26:05 pupnik: I disagree on the solution: VM Sep 01 20:26:09 ok Sep 01 20:26:10 pupnik: we can do better Sep 01 20:26:11 We need to not have beer goggles on here or blow smoke, huge opportunity and challenges are ahead and we are definately comming from behind. This is why Meego has to get out front. Sep 01 20:26:18 thiago_home: how ? Sep 01 20:26:27 In marketing teams, this is useful (to see people's perceptions) but to an extent it's more productive to come up with actions and results to change those perceptions Sep 01 20:26:28 from memory, none of Apple, MS or Google rely on a VM for their simulators Sep 01 20:26:28 pupnik: why do you need a VM in the first place? Sep 01 20:26:39 timeless_mbp: This depends on the availibility of the MADDE stuff for MeeGo, there are people working on this one - hopefully there will be a early version soon. Sep 01 20:26:40 possomfat_: yes... and the 25th repetition of preaching to the choir adds precisely zero Sep 01 20:26:40 pupnik: the cycle is: develop, test in simluator, continue developing Sep 01 20:26:48 (heck, even Nokia's phone simulators don't seem to be vm's) Sep 01 20:26:52 pupnik: then cross-compile to device, deploy on device and test again Sep 01 20:27:02 maclaver: yeah, sure Sep 01 20:27:14 but it might make more sense to plan to do marketing based on the arrival of that Sep 01 20:27:18 ok run in a chroot/UML type environment, and talk to the host X-server? Sep 01 20:27:23 and hold off on other marketing in the area until it arrives Sep 01 20:27:27 OK, so how do we leverage Intel and Nokia to make Meego win against feirce competition Sep 01 20:27:46 symbian SDKs also used to depend on a simulator, and... well, simulators are not the same thing as emulators, mostly due to differences in architectures Sep 01 20:27:51 qgil_: the situation is not bad, we just need redirection and clear goals *in* context :) Sep 01 20:27:52 timeless_mbp: This is one of the things we would have to consider once we have compared MeeGo with the other platforms. Sep 01 20:27:54 possomfat_: first of all making the success depending of more companies than Intel and Nokia Sep 01 20:27:55 put those little characters everywhere - esp texrat's Sep 01 20:28:00 pupnik: no Sep 01 20:28:12 pupnik: simulator. Compile for native platform and run inside the simulator. Sep 01 20:28:21 MeeGo offers a possibility of involvement and control that no other mobile platform gives: Android, iOS, Windows etc Sep 01 20:28:25 pupnik: there's no need for chroot or emulation of a processor. Sep 01 20:28:29 Yes, I agree but it is a great start Sep 01 20:28:31 well, to start with it'd help if we had some goals. And stopped talking about solutions for about 3 weeks Sep 01 20:28:33 ok i see. sounds good, ty thiago_home Sep 01 20:28:41 You need small companies like mine and many others Sep 01 20:28:42 FFS what has a chroot got to do with marketing? Sep 01 20:28:50 pupnik: it's the solution we're doing for Maemo & Symbian with the Nokia Qt SDK. Sep 01 20:29:04 They have to believe in the vision and we have to make the vision a reality in short order Sep 01 20:29:06 yaay :) Sep 01 20:29:07 lbt: (We could always reverse engineer the goals from the solutoins - it might be surprising) Sep 01 20:29:22 ok, let me try to nail down a starting point. See http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html and tell me if there is a target missing or in the wrong priority Sep 01 20:29:26 maclaver: it'll surprise some people ! Sep 01 20:29:28 thiago_home: as was the old s40 simulators , they were cool :) Sep 01 20:29:43 sivang: there wasn't much to be simulated there :-) Sep 01 20:29:48 thiago_home: hehe Sep 01 20:29:52 * timoph goes to sleep (11:30pm @ .fi) Sep 01 20:30:05 night timoph|away Sep 01 20:30:18 thiago_home, sivang - there are nokia emulators runnable on meego/maemo? Sep 01 20:30:22 lbt, making it easy for developers to jump in to compiling and running their code is something that needs to be achieved, then marketed :) Sep 01 20:30:24 very serious question Sep 01 20:30:36 can I emulate a 3210? Sep 01 20:30:37 lcuk: I don't know of any emulators Sep 01 20:30:40 qgil_: is that list of points ordered? Sep 01 20:30:47 qgil_: I think we need some goals... eg meego on devices. Then identify influencers for that goal Sep 01 20:30:48 i claim point 1 should be after point 2 Sep 01 20:30:48 gqil: I would split the application developers into commercial operations and hobbyists - their goals are sufficiently different. Sep 01 20:30:53 lcuk: if there's anything, it's Symbian Foundation and probably runs on Windows only... Sep 01 20:31:06 thiago_home, - meant to run on device itself Sep 01 20:31:07 timeless_mbp: mmm actually not :) Sep 01 20:31:12 my n900 running a 3210 emulation Sep 01 20:31:24 lcuk: device emulating device? never seen that. Sep 01 20:31:24 qgil: Otherwise this captures the audiences well. Sep 01 20:31:40 qgil_: who are those who are more likely to cause wide spread of the platform? Sep 01 20:31:45 thiago_home, http://liqbase.net/liq.20100830_nokia3210.png Sep 01 20:31:50 lbt I'm just trying to break this endless loop: if I ask about goals then someone aks what is the target Sep 01 20:31:53 a shim front end Sep 01 20:31:59 with an x40 or whatever backing Sep 01 20:32:02 s40 Sep 01 20:32:08 qgil_: are you missing consumers ? Sep 01 20:32:09 (whatever os it had) Sep 01 20:32:11 lbt: I wrote that email already so there is an starting point to iterate next to 'world domination' Sep 01 20:32:17 timeless_mbp, qgil_ : app developers no? Sep 01 20:32:19 *nod* Sep 01 20:32:26 qgil_: apps, apps, apps Sep 01 20:32:48 thiago_home: marketing to an app is easy with gainroot... Sep 01 20:32:51 qgil_: that means SDK, good API, easy to develop for, plenty of features Sep 01 20:32:58 lbt: consumers - I think we should leave the direct marketing to the vendors Sep 01 20:33:06 thiago_home: they are messages to devs Sep 01 20:33:08 very informative post there - everyone check out qgil's link http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html Sep 01 20:33:08 *documentation* Sep 01 20:33:19 thiago_home, get a nokia emulator and allow user to run any old nokia phone they want - there has to be thousands of apps ;) Sep 01 20:33:21 thiago_home: we care about devs because they influence vendors Sep 01 20:33:24 qgil_: and device loan program Sep 01 20:33:30 thiago_home: Application developers appears as one of the 4 primary targets Sep 01 20:33:39 pupnik: is that site paying people kickbacks for referrals? Sep 01 20:33:40 lcuk: of Java apps... Sep 01 20:33:45 all your points "belong" to that segment Sep 01 20:33:46 can even have clipon covers server Sep 01 20:33:48 service Sep 01 20:33:51 seeing the same link once every 25 lines is annoying Sep 01 20:34:01 lcuk: thso phones are *everywhere* Sep 01 20:34:13 qgil_: true... but there is support and consistency of the underlying messages... we want consumer pull too... somehow Sep 01 20:34:22 sivang, where do i download one? Sep 01 20:34:22 qgil_: what are the other segments? Sep 01 20:34:23 timeless_mbp: as annoying as getting the same question every 26 lines ;) Sep 01 20:34:28 qgil_: there's a difference between one of and *the* Sep 01 20:34:29 and that is partly my point Sep 01 20:34:35 app devs should be *the* primary Sep 01 20:34:42 nokia phones are everywhere - why aren't they inside my n900 too! Sep 01 20:34:47 J2ME is hell for developers Sep 01 20:34:47 which is something that i think most of the speakers here agree on Sep 01 20:34:52 thiago_home: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html :) Sep 01 20:34:55 and getting agreement on anything from people here is rare Sep 01 20:34:57 "hey dawg, i heard you like phones...." Sep 01 20:35:14 for the record timeless_mbp, I disagree Sep 01 20:35:15 timeless_mbp++ Sep 01 20:35:19 how much memory would a S60 'emulator' (runtime env) consume? :) Sep 01 20:35:20 one can run microemulator or whatever on N900 for rudimentary J2ME support Sep 01 20:35:22 qgil_: btw, device loaner, I wasn't kidding Sep 01 20:35:33 pupnik, since the devices didnt have much Sep 01 20:35:37 thiago_home: well, the MeeGo project as such has no devices Sep 01 20:35:38 qgil_: we gave lots of N900s at the Maemo Summit last year :-) Sep 01 20:35:40 i would say not a great deal Sep 01 20:35:41 *hint* *hint* Sep 01 20:35:55 lcuk: yeah, kind of tempting -- that idea innit? Sep 01 20:36:02 indeed Sep 01 20:36:11 hence me asking you and RST38h about emulators Sep 01 20:36:21 thiago_home: this is about MeGo marketing - we need to colaborate with companies but not organize the marketing these companies should do Sep 01 20:36:24 not that I need one... Sep 01 20:36:30 anyway, to your segments Sep 01 20:36:43 Project contributors: open project first. Make everyone feel welcome. Sep 01 20:36:48 pupnik, i technically wouldnt mind if it was closed source Sep 01 20:36:51 blogs, good articles Sep 01 20:36:52 *wonders if qgil_ is still happy to be taking the lead on marketing* :) Sep 01 20:37:05 DawnFoster: :D Sep 01 20:37:05 ovi store selling nokia soft phones :P Sep 01 20:37:16 DawnFoster: do we has time still to swith? Sep 01 20:37:21 a healthy and vibrant community attracts people Sep 01 20:37:27 do we have time still to switch I mean DawnFoster Sep 01 20:37:34 ha! Sep 01 20:37:44 oh come on qgil you know you love it Sep 01 20:37:50 device / OS vendors: not so sure. This is more the job of Tom Miller. Sep 01 20:38:02 lcuk: i have found a lot of stuff to like on S60 (e71). i imagine a 'wine' like runtime environment could be a serious product for Nokia Sep 01 20:38:12 I think some people with nice business cards should approach companies with the advantages Sep 01 20:38:19 companies love turn-key solutions Sep 01 20:38:20 pupnik, i am not even considering s60 Sep 01 20:38:23 tom miller is a Nokia guy with not assigned role at the MeeGo project, Intel has similar role, other companies have similar role - we need to help them Sep 01 20:38:24 thiago_home: which are? Sep 01 20:38:27 that has much higher requirements Sep 01 20:38:37 qgil_: we put them together and they do that job Sep 01 20:38:46 but i would not rule it out either Sep 01 20:39:10 I've heard that with Android, LG/Samsung can have a device on the market in 6 months Sep 01 20:39:24 thiago_home: we need to be the "upstream" marketing, and then they "productize" our base adding whatever helps the marketing and business of each company Sep 01 20:39:26 we need a list of things we can do like that, our benefits Sep 01 20:39:34 thiago: i've heard nokia can get a product to market in 4 years :) Sep 01 20:39:39 qgil_: IMHO, these people should be doing the upstream marketing Sep 01 20:39:41 pupnik, and yes, opening up the entire range of back catalogue nokia has by emulating devices would give a kick factor to people - even if its a single fun phone they show to mates Sep 01 20:40:09 thiago_home: and chinese companies with mediatek chipsets do that in, what it was, four to six weeks? Sep 01 20:40:11 thiago_home: this is nice and good in theory, but in practice it's difficult for them to detach their company affiliation and interests Sep 01 20:40:12 "look, this is the first commercial phone nokia ever sold, and it runs" Sep 01 20:40:13 qgil_: for example, the Amino announcement on the blog today. That's not anywhere close to Nokia business. Why should Nokia be involved with Amino? Sep 01 20:40:17 good points lcuk and pupnik Sep 01 20:40:20 it should because it helps MeeGo Sep 01 20:40:48 qgil_: I don't want them to. I want them to come and say "I'm of Nokia, here's my friend from Intel, we're here to show you some interesting opportunities" Sep 01 20:40:57 pupnik, Texrat a couple of quid on ovi store to buy a new phone within a phone Sep 01 20:41:15 "oh, btw, here's the contact of a consulting company for all your needs" Sep 01 20:41:28 thiago_home: of course, but for that to happen in a fair, effective and realistic way you need two things Sep 01 20:41:32 thiago_home: with conservative suits? sounds like mormons :I Sep 01 20:41:41 thiago: hrm, amino should have been in that front page spot on meego.com Sep 01 20:41:48 timeless_mbp: oh yeah Sep 01 20:41:53 1. base MeeGo marketing strategy and materials - produced with the help and involvement with these marketing guys in the companies Sep 01 20:41:56 thiago_home: isn' that what forum nokia does? consulting for development? they met with some isralei mobile startups when they were here last time. Sep 01 20:41:58 anyway, i am going back to #maemo for the evening :p Sep 01 20:42:00 thiago: that i had to find out from you here Sep 01 20:42:02 gnite all \o Sep 01 20:42:03 qgil_: yes Sep 01 20:42:06 and only because you happened to rant about it... Sep 01 20:42:08 that sucks :) Sep 01 20:42:09 and b) a detachment between business negotiation and purely neutral MeeGo project Sep 01 20:42:23 timeless_mbp: pfft. You don't have an RSS reader in one of those Mozilla apps? :-) Sep 01 20:42:36 thiago: rss? Sep 01 20:42:36 otherwise the Intel-Nokia effective commercial team stops being so effective when e.g. the ARM camp suspects that these guys have something that we don't knoe etc etc Sep 01 20:42:41 * timeless_mbp wonders what that is Sep 01 20:42:43 * thiago_home loves people who count 1 and b Sep 01 20:42:45 i use news.google.com Sep 01 20:42:57 if it isn't in news.google.com, it clearly isn't improtant Sep 01 20:43:00 qgil_: true, true Sep 01 20:43:02 s/pro/por/ Sep 01 20:43:02 timeless_mbp meant: if it isn't in news.google.com, it clearly isn't important Sep 01 20:43:15 this is why everybody needs to be able to get equally the basics from MeeGo, and then each company has its activities, alone and with other partners Sep 01 20:43:19 qgil_: but that's why we need to get some of the ARM-camp companies onboard too Sep 01 20:43:26 qgil_: the same way that we need other ODMs Sep 01 20:43:41 thiago_home: what's amino? Sep 01 20:43:48 sivang: google Sep 01 20:43:49 sharing the source is a good way to show that nothing is being coded behind anyone's back Sep 01 20:43:50 thiago_home: DawnFoster just said in the TSG meeting that TI is going to be one of the sponsors of the MeeGo conference Sep 01 20:43:51 +meego Sep 01 20:43:55 * sivang googles Sep 01 20:44:04 in the call for session proposals I saw submissions from other ARM players as well Sep 01 20:44:07 qgil_: good, I didn't know if that was public :-) Sep 01 20:44:09 I think we are in the good track Sep 01 20:44:23 anyway, what can "upstream" do? Prepare presentations. Sep 01 20:44:27 but those companies are also dealing with all the mobile OS around, of course Sep 01 20:44:32 neutral, benefits os meego Sep 01 20:44:48 but don't hide companies who are backing the project Sep 01 20:45:01 exactly Sep 01 20:45:03 big ones and small ones (hey, lots of consultants here) Sep 01 20:45:04 thiago_home: consult for app development :) Sep 01 20:45:33 one thing that the upstream project can't do, but we desperately need are iconic devices Sep 01 20:45:39 this neutrality is crucial for the marketing and project success Sep 01 20:45:42 we need a couple on the market to show the capabilities Sep 01 20:45:56 thiago_home++ Sep 01 20:46:01 and this is why http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4898 (openness metabug) is actually one of the obstacles Sep 01 20:46:13 Aava isn't for everybody and Nokia doesn't support MeeGo on the N900 Sep 01 20:46:21 but N900+MeeGo is the best we have so far Sep 01 20:46:25 well, handset at least Sep 01 20:46:51 Acer shipping a MeeGo-powered netbook would be cool. Amino shipping a MeeGo-powered STB too. Sep 01 20:46:53 can meego in your car, in your pocket, on your walls make a difference? Sep 01 20:47:10 ok, let me go back to http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001554.html - nobody has objected about the 4 targets proposed there Sep 01 20:47:15 IVI is a weird segment though Sep 01 20:47:22 qgil_: looked fine to me Sep 01 20:47:26 I'll take it as a successful second round (nobody objected in meego-community either) Sep 01 20:47:45 qgil_: I'd still like to see consumers Sep 01 20:47:45 lbt sure it can Sep 01 20:47:47 qgil_: I think the targets are pretty much... pardon the pun, on target :-) Sep 01 20:47:50 thiago_home: I think it can allow for good showcase of exotic features Sep 01 20:47:55 even if we don't address them ourselves Sep 01 20:47:55 an open source computing ecosystem... Sep 01 20:48:04 we need to understand their position Sep 01 20:48:07 then let's see if we can polish a bit the goals beyond "world domination" Sep 01 20:48:18 Hi I have booted Meego... whats the default account and password? Sep 01 20:48:24 then we can combine goals and targets and start thinking of strategy and actions Sep 01 20:49:04 qgil_: btw, presentations on MeeGo's benefits (and requirements) is a must Sep 01 20:49:13 we have lots of people running around talking to companies Sep 01 20:49:38 thiago_home: in front of me I have postits with my to do Sep 01 20:49:43 :-) Sep 01 20:49:48 Wingzero: not many tech/devs around at the moment... but "well done" :) Sep 01 20:49:55 1st position is openness metabug amnd 2nd position is MeeGo intro slides published :) Sep 01 20:50:22 qgil those MeeGo intro slides will eb great for the meetups Sep 01 20:50:29 and btw 3rd position is now "MeeGo Developer Experience WG proposal" - if someone wants to help Sep 01 20:50:33 my first scheduled has presentation setup Sep 01 20:50:45 qgil: Count me in on that one. Sep 01 20:50:54 qgil_: me as well Sep 01 20:51:02 * thiago_home is suddenly reminded his Qt Dev Days presentation is Qt on MeeGo and he requires MeeGo intro slides Sep 01 20:51:03 qgil_: where'sthe draft? Sep 01 20:51:15 maclaver had an old one we must revisit Sep 01 20:51:27 I think that will be a lot of us thiago_home ;) Sep 01 20:51:32 and make it good for the current MeeGo structure and reality Sep 01 20:51:46 thiago_home: qt dev days should be utilized to talk about MeeGo app development in a more complete way Sep 01 20:52:02 sivang: Qt Dev Days is more than MeeGo Sep 01 20:52:11 sivang: remember that *most* attendees are developing for Windows exclusively Sep 01 20:52:14 thiago_home: in fact it would be good to have someone senior at the Qt team backing and helping defining this Developer Experience WG proposal Sep 01 20:52:20 thiago_home: you mean, SYmbian? Sep 01 20:52:25 sivang: no, Windows Sep 01 20:52:36 sivang: desktop developers Sep 01 20:52:39 ah right Sep 01 20:52:44 oh i see :( Sep 01 20:52:51 qgil_: can you call it something other than a WG? :) Sep 01 20:52:54 team Sep 01 20:52:54 The dev days here were about Symbian mostly and some Maemo Sep 01 20:53:14 one of our objectives this year is to convince these people to develop for Nokia platforms too Sep 01 20:53:17 DawnFoster: no, because the proposal is precisely about a WG Sep 01 20:53:26 MeeGo preferably, IMHO Sep 01 20:53:39 in the same line as the device UX, since the developer tools have pkenty of UX not addressed by abny WG directly Sep 01 20:54:09 thiago_home: that'd be great to see. Sep 01 20:54:16 thiago_home, "most are developing for windows" - WHY does that matter, in all seriousness Sep 01 20:54:19 qgil_: I really would call it something else Sep 01 20:54:20 especially with the netbook Sep 01 20:54:29 lcuk: it doesn't matter for this channel Sep 01 20:54:42 the WGs have a particular process and way of working and a lot of overhead Sep 01 20:54:51 thiago_home, but is there a difference in how to code if i wanted a qt app on windows and netbook? Sep 01 20:55:00 we are always talking about the importance of app developers, sdk, ditribution channels... yet there is nobody appointed and you can't see the developer offering anywhere at http://meego.com/about/governance Sep 01 20:55:05 lcuk: aside from the more constrained screen size, no Sep 01 20:55:08 i can see difference in handheld for some levels Sep 01 20:55:25 thiago_home: and mobility stuff Sep 01 20:55:25 hmmmm Sep 01 20:55:28 then, dev for windows or meego shouldn't really even be an issue Sep 01 20:55:41 sivang: yes Sep 01 20:55:48 DawnFoster: at least what I'm talking about is a WG: with a coordinator and involvement of the right stakeholders, defining roadmap and requirements to the Program Office Sep 01 20:55:57 can i use mobility libs in a static install - ie on the netbook Sep 01 20:56:02 anyway, let's forget about Windows, it's not relevant here Sep 01 20:56:22 my point was only that I'll be doing MeeGo evangelising and I need some material Sep 01 20:56:27 thiago_home: as a start I propose the forum nokia people come with MeeGo notebooks instead of mac book pros Sep 01 20:56:37 :) Sep 01 20:56:52 lol sivang Sep 01 20:56:54 sivang: no FN people Sep 01 20:57:02 sivang: these are Qt developers coming to talk Sep 01 20:57:09 The WG issue can be decided later, the important thing is to get the marketing work started and rolling (thiago needs the material by October). Sep 01 20:57:09 The Linux Foundation has a whole formal process around WGs Sep 01 20:57:19 second... no OOo in MeeGo Netbook Sep 01 20:57:21 sivang, thats a good point in many cases Sep 01 20:57:24 thiago_home: they were FN, only one was Qt dev Sep 01 20:57:31 call it something else if you want flexibility and to be able get started quickly Sep 01 20:57:33 DawnFoster: sure, the proposal targets precisely that formal process Sep 01 20:57:45 thiago_home: or even present using the phones temselves instead of the mbp's Sep 01 20:57:47 sivang: where? Sep 01 20:57:51 I'm not trying to be difficult, I really am trying to help you meet your goals Sep 01 20:57:51 DawnFoster: it's not about starting quickly, it's about doing the right thing Sep 01 20:57:59 thiago_home, no OOo, does it need heavy work to build it? Sep 01 20:58:06 and make available Sep 01 20:58:15 thiago_home: does it matter? I'd hate to frame good FN people I met :) Sep 01 20:58:16 DawnFoster: now the developer offering is no visible and dismissed, the proof can be seen in the weaknesses we have in the current relese and future plans Sep 01 20:58:32 sivang: anyway, Qt Dev Days isn't an FN event. It's a Qt event. Sep 01 20:58:40 my point is that you can make it something visible and important and call it something else Sep 01 20:58:42 sivang: the presenters are Trolls. With a few guests. Sep 01 20:58:52 sivang: take a look at the bios at the website. Sep 01 20:59:05 qgil_ call it whatever you want, but I think you'll have serious issues if you try to call it a WG Sep 01 20:59:20 you'll notice that the TSG hasn't approved anything called a WG Sep 01 21:00:18 the developer stuff is weak now because we needed to focus on the product to give developers a platform to write on top of. Sep 01 21:00:25 thiago_home: http://www.imaworld.org/?CategoryID=692 Sep 01 21:00:33 thiago_home: are all Trolltechists? Sep 01 21:00:34 DawnFoster: I'm well aware of it, I think they were right with the previous but I think this one makes sense Sep 01 21:00:50 now that we're making good progress on the distribution, we're starting to focus on app dev Sep 01 21:00:56 qgil_: you can try :) Sep 01 21:01:21 DawnFoster: I honestly believe the developer offering is weak because it's common that platform developers working on an OS always think about the SDK afterward - and this is why you need people roadmapping and defining the develoer offering on its own Sep 01 21:01:23 hi Sep 01 21:01:35 there is no mic2 repo for meego ????? Sep 01 21:01:55 there are repo for fedora, ubuntu, opensuse, ... Sep 01 21:01:56 sivang: no, I don't recognise any of the names Sep 01 21:02:07 but no repo for meego itselv Sep 01 21:02:10 f Sep 01 21:02:39 anyway, today I had enough with the Marketing decision :) I'll go do some homework - thank you everybody for the input Sep 01 21:03:13 qgil_: see if you and maclaver can put something on google docs for sharing Sep 01 21:03:19 qgil_: re the proposal of the WG Sep 01 21:03:26 qgil_: and send the link to the ML :) Sep 01 21:03:36 sivang: google docs when we have wiki.meego.com? Sep 01 21:03:41 qgil_: oh right :) Sep 01 21:03:42 sorry Sep 01 21:03:58 qgil_: it was out of habit :-p Sep 01 21:04:00 qgil_: if I manage to get anything done in my Qt on MeeGo presentation, I'll send to you too Sep 01 21:04:34 re app deveopment: we should also try and make python another good offering, or at least market and presentate this offering Sep 01 21:04:40 the pyside team are doing amazing work Sep 01 21:05:03 more options for app developers, even if they are not C++ or qt experienced Sep 01 21:05:05 sivang: the old proposal is http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Development_working_group - now only a possible starting point Sep 01 21:05:10 sivang: yeah Sep 01 21:05:21 qgil_: sorry, going back to the part where you asked for someone from the Qt team Sep 01 21:05:27 Question, has anyone been faced with a issue that Xserver doesn't start? Sep 01 21:05:29 qgil_: could you clarify? It went by and I didn't answer. Sep 01 21:05:32 Okay, I will work with Quim on the proposal but it will be next week before anything concrete can be done.... Sep 01 21:05:50 qgil_: you guys going to cotninue drafting there? Sep 01 21:05:50 I have to go now, thanks for the discussion. Sep 01 21:06:02 cheers maclaver Sep 01 21:06:36 thiago_home: so to get a feel for app development in no time, through python. I need to google about app inventor for andriod Sep 01 21:06:51 thiago_home: I would like to know if the team in charge of the Qt developer tools would see a Developer Experience WG as something useful and needed in the MeeGo project Sep 01 21:07:26 in the lines that we have (well, we will have) Handset UX WG, Netbook UX WG and etc thiago_home Sep 01 21:07:34 qgil_: what would that WG do? Sep 01 21:07:47 qgil_: work on improving the developer experience (meaning tools, releases, etc.) ? Sep 01 21:08:13 thiago_home: own the roadmap of teh MeeGo developer offering and filling the Program Office with features, just like the other WGs do with their own areas Sep 01 21:08:33 for example, "we need a tool to package simple apps" ? Sep 01 21:08:40 thiago_home: now the developer offering roadmap is owned by... who? it's not dependent of any device category Sep 01 21:08:48 "we need an RPC mechanism to submit OSS apps to the distro" ? Sep 01 21:09:25 thiago_home: for example: the official developer toolkits are these, the official tools are that, this feature in the SDK needs to go to the next release Sep 01 21:09:45 ok Sep 01 21:09:46 this is the work the WGs will do for the different UXs, but nobody seems to really handle the planning of the Developer Experience Sep 01 21:09:52 yes, I think they'd be interested in participating Sep 01 21:09:57 and I think they'd see value Sep 01 21:10:10 however, I think the I-program (Harmattan+1) would be even more interested Sep 01 21:10:50 if nothing else, the goals of the MeeGo SDK can't be completely divergent from the Nokia SDK Sep 01 21:10:56 for instance, nowadays... who decides whether QML is the new rock&roll and therefore we need to have everythign ready for it? Not the Handset etc UX groups, the program office can improvise on short term execution but... the TSG directly<' Sep 01 21:10:58 ? Sep 01 21:11:19 I see Sep 01 21:11:38 a) I think there's a lot of value in that WG Sep 01 21:11:50 b) I don't know who with OSS background could be in that team... Sep 01 21:11:55 for you to think about - and again this is beyond Nokia since the same appies to whoever is developing the next generation of netbooks, IVIs, TVs and what not Sep 01 21:12:12 yes, it's definitely beyond Nokia Sep 01 21:12:38 offtopic: i see audi going to use tegra chipset in next cars - is MeeGo a candidate? Sep 01 21:12:43 but it should be aligned with the Nokia offering. Or should I say, the Nokia offering should be aligned with this? (plus Symbian on the side) Sep 01 21:12:59 pupnik: are they Genivi-alliance? Sep 01 21:13:01 people involved in WGs need to have strong background in product management and roadmapping, more than OSS per se, but of course being an OSS insider does help Sep 01 21:13:15 the goals could start with the Nokia SDK and expand Sep 01 21:13:36 dunno thiago_home - just seems like a nice alternative for car apps - all the HW you want is in there... Sep 01 21:13:58 MeeGo is upstream and Nokia productizes - if the Qt team is seruious about governance then Qt & MeeGo go first, then Nokia and other Qt vendors go after that Sep 01 21:14:07 anyway, vendors are supposed to be stakeholders in the WGs Sep 01 21:14:20 they are the ones actually investing and selling those products Sep 01 21:14:38 * thiago_home agrees Sep 01 21:14:42 qgil_ WGs are usually made up almost exclusively of vendors Sep 01 21:14:55 is that what you're intending with this WG? Sep 01 21:15:17 DawnFoster: yes, it's more "jargon" with thiago_home : whoever he thinks of has a Nokia badge anyway, so is a vendor Sep 01 21:15:19 those vendors will have developers with development experience to shape the experience, right? Sep 01 21:15:55 my point is more that if you are looking for a vendor group to define requirements - a WG is a good way to go Sep 01 21:16:15 sivang: of course, they sit in WGs to do real work, and they get the seats there because of concrete involvement in the MeeGo project in the first place Sep 01 21:16:22 if you are looking for lots of participation from a variety of people in the community, you should call it a project or a team Sep 01 21:16:59 DawnFoster: the WG I'm talking about should have people from companies agreeing on what the MeeGo developer offering needs to be now and in the future Sep 01 21:17:50 usually WGs have companies as members - one person leaves and is replaced by another corporate representative Sep 01 21:18:25 if you want individuals participating based on the knowledge in their head, you should go a different route Sep 01 21:18:27 DawnFoster: I want to test bed with the Qt team at Nokia since they of course know about the MeeGo developer tools - if they see this exercise pointless then it is for me pointless to push it Sep 01 21:18:39 personally, I'm not a fan of WGs for community stuff Sep 01 21:19:10 DawnFoster: I'm talking about real roadmapping, WG work Sep 01 21:19:35 qgil_: but we have to make sure we keep contact with the non vendor community eventually, but starting with the qt team is a good shot Sep 01 21:19:46 formal teams and projects chartered with actually getting stuff done with minimal overhead are a better way to go. Sep 01 21:19:46 I don't know if this needs to be a WG or what Sep 01 21:20:07 it needs to be a group of people who can plan features and go to the people who can make those features to convince them Sep 01 21:21:09 thiago_home: this is a simple definition of a working group Sep 01 21:21:13 we should also talk to the SDK team, since they are holding regular meetings and doing a lot of what you guys are talking about starting: http://wiki.meego.com/SDK Sep 01 21:21:32 sounds like the SDK team to me, in fact Sep 01 21:21:36 thiago_home: "The working groups are devoted to strategic discussions in specific areas and are accountable to provide input and guidance about requirements, direction, policies, and conflict resolution, within their area of responsibility." Sep 01 21:21:44 http://meego.com/about/governance Sep 01 21:22:07 nowadays the developer office falls in nobody's land Sep 01 21:22:16 developer experience, I mean :) Sep 01 21:22:56 I can think of a lot of names, but everyone extremely busy... Sep 01 21:23:11 DawnFoster: in that page: "Team lorem ipsum... ", in the governance page there are no mention of SDK either - as you see there is a problem Sep 01 21:23:14 qgil_: what about just havnig a few people of the SDK team to deal with communicating with the "outside" world for requirements and diection? Sep 01 21:23:24 qgil_ look at the meeting minutes Sep 01 21:23:33 well sorry I found mic for meego Sep 01 21:23:36 they are making real progress and meeting every week Sep 01 21:23:48 the governance pages aren't done Sep 01 21:24:06 the real solution is to get SDK/developer experience in the governance structure Sep 01 21:24:14 with someone leading it Sep 01 21:24:31 DawnFoster: of course, and the Program Office is developing a second release without any WG created - still the MeeGo project considers that WG are needed with the responsibilities described in the governance pages Sep 01 21:25:06 Question has anyone here got Meego to boot on a beagleboard? Sep 01 21:25:18 qgil_ as I said, you can try to get another WG approved, but I think your chances are unlikely Sep 01 21:25:40 DawnFoster: someone needs to roadmap the whole developer experience, from the compiler and APIs to the SDK, documentation and distribution channels Sep 01 21:25:57 getting the TSG to recognize the problem would be progress already Sep 01 21:26:34 qgil_: agreed, I'm just saying that it belongs in the main governance structure, just like we have people responsible for release management Sep 01 21:26:50 DawnFoster: but god point, if the meego-sdk people is not convince then there is no point trying to convince anybody else :) Sep 01 21:27:39 pupnik: do you know if it is possible to build a meego image for tegra ? Sep 01 21:28:00 vlj: you need to get the GL drivers from NVidia Sep 01 21:28:11 there are Sep 01 21:28:20 vlj: also check with them if there are any kernel patches and modules that are necessary Sep 01 21:28:30 there are kernel patches necessary :) Sep 01 21:28:32 aside from that, it might just work Sep 01 21:28:36 vlj: I'm asking you. Sep 01 21:28:49 this is rather interesting discussion, but I have one more day of fighting with rsyslog tomorrow, good night Sep 01 21:29:12 what I'm afraid is : does tegra A9 cortex core works with armv7 built meego image ? Sep 01 21:29:23 qgil_: I apologise if I Asked alrady, are you guys gonna draft over that wiki page? Sep 01 21:29:31 qgil_: if so, I'll subscribe Sep 01 21:29:40 vlj: yes. The ARMv7 build is optimised for Cortex-A8. Sep 01 21:29:40 qgil_: re: marketing plan Sep 01 21:29:47 vlj: A9 should be a no problem Sep 01 21:29:58 arm is backward compatible ? Sep 01 21:30:02 yeah Sep 01 21:30:04 ok Sep 01 21:30:24 is there a way to have a X-less meego ? Sep 01 21:30:30 no Sep 01 21:30:34 oh well, never mind, I'll expoect a ML thread when a new draft is out. Sep 01 21:30:39 if you remove X, it's no longer called MeeGo Sep 01 21:30:50 night thiago_home , others. Sep 01 21:30:56 sivang: g'night Sep 01 21:30:57 sivang: I'll update the wiki pages and then send an update to meego-community Sep 01 21:31:02 qgil_: are you already in the US? Sep 01 21:31:11 thiago_home: yep Sep 01 21:31:13 well, just to test if everything works except gl driver Sep 01 21:31:23 qgil_: MountainView? Sep 01 21:31:40 thiago_home: here right now Sep 01 21:33:41 is Meego still meego with a non 2.6.33 kernel ? Sep 01 21:33:55 with a patched kernel Sep 01 21:34:00 vlj: patched is ok Sep 01 21:34:10 not using one of the components, not ok Sep 01 21:34:15 ok Sep 01 21:34:18 using a different version, I don't know Sep 01 21:34:19 how long did it take you guys to share a folder with samba and be able to write to it? Sep 01 21:34:43 CosmoHill: back in 1998 when I installed Samba for the first time, several hours :-) Sep 01 21:34:59 CosmoHill: depends on if you have a windows server or not Sep 01 21:35:13 ubuntu and windows laptop Sep 01 21:35:22 so it's taking a lot of time Sep 01 21:35:22 qgil_: it looks like veli & bspencer already own defining the developer offering Sep 01 21:35:50 * thiago_home points out that veli is a common Finnish first name Sep 01 21:35:51 we should turn this decision over to them & get one of them nominated on the governance page Sep 01 21:35:59 they really should be driving it Sep 01 21:36:23 by the way can I suggest meego developper to include dkms ? :) Sep 01 21:36:30 vlj: you can :-) Sep 01 21:36:31 thiago_home: Kaksonen Sep 01 21:36:36 i think I'm up to two hours with this guy atm Sep 01 21:36:41 because it is usefull Sep 01 21:36:54 vlj: dkms would be useful for things like the broadcom driver Sep 01 21:36:56 for instance for nvidia module, emgd module... Sep 01 21:37:14 I'm already using it on my "customised" Meego Sep 01 21:38:13 there is some "openFATE" equivalent for meego ? Sep 01 21:39:48 I've heard that name, but I don't know what it does Sep 01 21:39:55 isn't it a requirements-tracking system? Sep 01 21:40:01 err Sep 01 21:40:16 it is a "place" to put suggestion from community Sep 01 21:40:21 DawnFoster: I know, but based on what input? The features for 1.1 were not defined by them but by Sami/Hillarie, and based on what input? It's complicated. :) Sep 01 21:40:54 https://features.opensuse.org/ Sep 01 21:40:55 qgil_ My point is that since they own it, they need to define their own process for requirements gathering. Sep 01 21:41:18 qgil_ You can make suggestions for them, but you shouldn't be trying to drive their process Sep 01 21:41:21 vlj: no, only Bugzilla Sep 01 21:41:48 qgil_ Then you should be working with them on marketing, messaging & promotion for what they've defined. Sep 01 21:42:20 DawnFoster: we hit many times this type of stone. it's ok to propose ideas to others even if you are not owning or directing their areas - some ideas fly, some don't Sep 01 21:42:29 ok Sep 01 21:42:53 hi DawnFoster Sep 01 21:43:08 Veli and Ronan actually have been trying to push a developer WG, other think it would be a good idea as well. Having a discussion doesn't harm Sep 01 21:43:42 yes. Veli has proposed an org structure with owners and we are working on people Sep 01 21:43:58 hi bspencer Sep 01 21:44:04 hi qgil_ Sep 01 21:44:40 what I was saying is that the OS and UX development is guided by the steering and roadmapping of the device UX working groups (in the future, when they are created) Sep 01 21:45:04 but the roadmapping of the developer experience seems to fall in nobody's land, while it's critical for everybody Sep 01 21:45:32 an SDK WG is underway. Sep 01 21:45:45 we have the figure of the WG for guidance and requirements, and this is why there is this idea that the developer experience (whicvh includes plenty of UX on its own) would need a WG as well participated by the main corporate stakeholders and experts Sep 01 21:46:08 bspencer: great, then I just need to sync with you and help this idea happening Sep 01 21:46:21 discussions abt the "developer experience" are happening in our weekly online meetings. We just having formalized the WG people. Sep 01 21:46:36 yes, with Veli or me. Sep 01 21:47:24 http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Meetings and http://piratepad.net/thYHTcAtxF for a bit of background Sep 01 21:47:51 we have just recently said "we need a special meeting on the new web structure from ronan along with doc roadmap" Sep 01 21:48:37 bspencer: it would also help to have someone formally appointed to coordinate the whole work Sep 01 21:49:28 qgil_: in general, we need to get the governance structure finalized Sep 01 21:49:40 there are a lot of placeholders and empty spaces Sep 01 21:49:40 qgil_, yes, that is where veli and I are arm wrestling a bit. But we will have that within the week, along with owners for major SDK components Sep 01 21:50:02 bspencer: this sounds like very good progress, thank you Sep 01 21:50:13 not just in SDK - even the netbook PM hasn't been nominated :) Sep 01 21:50:36 DawnFoster: sure sure, but since bspencer is here... :) Sep 01 21:51:40 qgil_: just a reminder that we should be arm wrestling more than just the SDK team :) Sep 01 21:52:01 I'm not sure if SDK should be a working group, or a component of the Core WG Sep 01 21:52:19 perhaps a review of how we want this to work would be helpful Sep 01 21:52:32 (there is no Core WG) Sep 01 21:52:34 we accept requirements from many places, but Core WG is a primary director Sep 01 21:53:10 hm. Well, there is netbook, handheld, etc. Isn't there something driven by Gavin? Sep 01 21:53:22 I expose my ignorance Sep 01 21:53:49 we have a core OS program: http://meego.com/about/governance/program-office/core-os-program Sep 01 21:53:56 it's not called a WG Sep 01 21:54:15 bspencer: see the diagram at http://meego.com/about/governance Sep 01 21:54:28 the WGs set the requirements for the Program Office Sep 01 21:54:30 what is Gavin's role now? Sep 01 21:54:44 the Program Office makes sure the requirements are done where needed Sep 01 21:55:03 "MeeGo Core Product Manager" Sep 01 21:55:07 this means that the Core program gets requirements indirectly, when feature X Y Z needs to be implemented in a UX layer Sep 01 21:55:24 WGs are organized by UX categries, so they look after the UX, good Sep 01 21:55:56 but... who looks at the developer offering? The Core Program is not getting much requirements from UX categories point of view and this means that they need to guess a lot Sep 01 21:55:56 hmmmm Sep 01 21:56:29 qgil_ We probably need a Developer Offering Program Manager Sep 01 21:56:39 it's just not in the structure yet Sep 01 21:56:44 MTF? QML? Qt API? Which GCC? Promotoe platform API... all the rpoblems you bspencer have to deal every day Sep 01 21:57:06 I've received requirements from handheld, tablet, and tv groups, along with intern Intel groups like tools and AppUp. Sep 01 21:57:13 was just talking to Imad - he knows that we still need to get the rest of the roles / nominations finished Sep 01 21:57:17 but these aren't coming through WGs. Perhaps that is what we are trying to fix Sep 01 21:57:28 DawnFoster: just keep me off any list ;) Sep 01 21:57:28 bspencer: not to talk about Ovi? AppUp? White label MeeGo shops? There are no known MeeGo plans about this atm Sep 01 21:57:56 auke: dang, I was going to put you on the list of people who do all of the work :) Sep 01 21:58:51 anyway, my little point has been exposed and it's good to see that bspencer veli etc are working to fix this Sep 01 21:58:54 if SDK becomes a WG will that introduce a lot of new headaches for us? :) Sep 01 21:59:09 if the solution is a WG or else, I actually don't mind as long as the MeeGo developer experience is excellent Sep 01 21:59:30 agree Sep 01 21:59:36 DawnFoster: oh, that's cool. assign all bugs to me Sep 01 21:59:41 bspencer: my point is that WG vs Program Office are defining the usual relationship between product management and R&D Sep 01 21:59:47 bspencer: isn't that what all WGs do? :-P Sep 01 21:59:53 j/k Sep 01 22:00:26 * thiago_home agrees with qgil_ that we need a team who is thinking of the big-picture-SDK Sep 01 22:00:27 thiago_home, dictators always fear democracy Sep 01 22:00:46 it won't be possible to do in the first iteration, but it's a long-team goal Sep 01 22:01:31 it doesn't have to be a lot of people, nor do they have to meet frequently Sep 01 22:01:40 the first year f the MeeGo project has shown that the program office doesn't WGs to have releases, but how good is this for the long term :) Sep 01 22:01:59 anyway, I really need to do some concrete work in my little area now :) Sep 01 22:02:08 thanks for the interestingg discussion Sep 01 22:12:24 I apologize in advance for the cut/paste. Sep 01 22:12:28 Hi guys. [08:03] I have a question about mic-image-creator [08:03] I'm trying to use it to create a .raw image for the N900 using the daily build repo [08:04] I'm using the handset-armv7l-n900.ks file from the meego GIT tree. [08:04] == s1gk1ll [sigkill@cl-188.lis-01.pt.sixxs.net] has joined #meego-arm [08:04] == s1gk1ll [sigkill@cl-188.lis-01.pt.sixxs.net] has left #meego-arm [] [08:04] and Sep 01 22:18:07 then doing disc dump (dd) to get that .raw image to a 4GB Kingston SD card. [08:05] back cover is on [08:05] I run flasher-3.5 to flash the vmlinux kernel that's created. [08:05] and it fails every time to boot the file system [08:05] I've done this over and over. [08:06] I've even used the prebuilt images from http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php [08:06] include every .k Sep 01 22:18:23 the only image that works is the "Closed" raw image [08:06] which only boots to a bash shell on the N900 [08:06] any suggestions would be helpful. Sep 01 22:18:44 that's all of the questions I just posed in #meego-arm Sep 01 22:43:12 nobody home? Sep 01 22:43:26 hey Sep 01 22:43:30 I'm the cleaner Sep 01 22:43:38 haha! Nice. Sep 01 22:43:41 the kid's are doing a performace of snow white at school Sep 01 22:43:50 they'll be home later in the evening Sep 01 22:43:57 thank you, sir. Sep 01 22:45:14 bennry: I'm definately not at home... no couch here, no kids, cats, wife etc. Sep 01 22:45:18 * auke stuck at work Sep 01 22:47:27 sounds like a hoilday Sep 01 22:48:47 smoke em if ya got em Sep 01 22:49:33 auke: you're in america right? Sep 01 22:49:55 (or at least near a coffee machine) Sep 01 22:52:28 Can you guys read my questions above? Sep 01 22:52:48 CosmoHill: US yes, long walk from decent coffee tho Sep 01 22:53:03 that's what robots are for Sep 01 22:53:08 bennry: yep Sep 01 22:53:13 doesn't mean I know the answer tho Sep 01 22:53:41 actually, I'm trying to use flasher-3.5 to flash the kernel on an N900. Is there a way I can get the kernel messages out on the terminal? Sep 01 22:53:51 or are they only in dmesg after boot or on screen wtihout a backlight? Sep 01 22:54:48 is the bootinfo in /var/log somewhere? Sep 01 23:07:59 * CosmoHill pokes DawnFoster Sep 01 23:08:09 what's this I hear about new SSDs tomorrow? Sep 01 23:08:16 new ssd's? Sep 01 23:08:27 http://forums.kustompcs.co.uk/showthread.php?t=49713 Sep 01 23:14:03 interesting Sep 01 23:14:20 I can tell you one thing: Dawn won't be able to answer that :) Sep 01 23:17:07 yeah, what auke said :) Sep 01 23:17:32 anyway, I work in the software side of Intel - I have no idea what they are doing with the hardware Sep 01 23:17:45 * CosmoHill looks at ...where he arjan? Sep 01 23:17:46 damn Sep 01 23:17:47 and if I did, I couldn't tell you :) but I don't Sep 01 23:21:13 if I knew of a new product and people asked me I'd tell them Sep 01 23:21:21 I wouldn't tell them the truth Sep 01 23:21:24 DawnFoster, you are op, you can tell him, but then you would have to kline him afterwards :D Sep 01 23:21:39 make something up ever so slightly different and see who reports what Sep 01 23:21:58 ha! Sep 01 23:22:41 "yeah yeah the SSD drive is amazing. He's a special feature I'm not meant to tell anyone until it's realease Sep 01 23:22:58 "it charges your batteries when the screen saver is on" Sep 01 23:25:34 I'm kinda used to being kicked out of some channels Sep 01 23:26:31 I was banned for the duration of my GCSE study leave Sep 01 23:27:17 bennry: can't help you on your questions, but you might have better luck posting them in 12 hours or so. My guess is that the folks in Finland might be able to better answer them... Sep 01 23:27:56 and they will have had coffee with their lunch so they'll be alert too Sep 01 23:28:00 like meerkats! Sep 01 23:28:47 csdb - unfortunately, I don't look at computers when I'm away from work Sep 01 23:28:56 I'll just wait until tomorrow's meeting :) Sep 01 23:29:05 with you guys aparently. Sep 01 23:29:08 they're a meeting? Sep 01 23:29:15 there's* Sep 01 23:29:17 yeah, I guess 9am there is in 8 hours or so Sep 01 23:29:30 maybe Sep 01 23:30:14 * csdb thinks the world should be flat and without timezones. All bright, then all dark. Rinse and repeat Sep 01 23:30:50 a large rotating disc? Sep 01 23:31:30 if we were a large rotating disc, do you think humans would develop on the other side? Sep 01 23:32:34 i think women would look funny with their boobs off to one side Sep 01 23:32:50 offtopic Sep 01 23:33:23 off balance too Sep 01 23:34:18 ok, people Sep 01 23:35:06 lbt: how was this morning's meeting? Sep 01 23:35:27 CosmoHill, put something on a record player and set it spinning Sep 01 23:35:51 dan le sac va scroobius pip has something groove locked Sep 01 23:35:54 I could put that on Sep 01 23:36:07 humans would develop out in deep space Sep 01 23:36:10 cos we would fly off it Sep 01 23:36:41 depends on what axis it rotated on Sep 01 23:36:43 can I use people's names in real life? Sep 01 23:36:53 you could try Sep 01 23:36:57 johnx - testdisk worked.. thanks man Sep 01 23:36:58 I'm meeting with someone from Nokia tomorrow and wanted to chat possibly offline Sep 01 23:36:59 there are two problems tho Sep 01 23:37:01 don't want to get in trouble. Sep 01 23:37:11 1. they might not like their real names being used Sep 01 23:37:21 2. We probably don't know their real names Sep 01 23:37:36 so we might know who you're talking about but only under their alias Sep 01 23:37:53 ok, I'll leave their names out of the conversation here. Sep 01 23:38:05 they might be online Sep 01 23:38:08 hold on Sep 01 23:38:11 this person is versed in MeeGo + ARM and various platforms Sep 01 23:38:43 bennry, the worst is the opposite Sep 01 23:38:47 when you meet people in reallife Sep 01 23:38:52 and call them by their irc nicknames Sep 01 23:39:12 bennry: http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who Sep 01 23:39:23 I was called Cosmo at one point Sep 01 23:40:04 my problem is I only learn the first 3 or 4 letters of someone' name now, I just use tab complete Sep 01 23:41:01 nice Sep 01 23:41:57 lcuk: also over time you build up a mental image of the person which will probably differ from reality Sep 01 23:41:58 does anybody know what is the status of the OBS upgrade is ? Sep 01 23:43:26 Great, I'm in touch with only one person on that page. Sep 01 23:43:37 will wait until tomorrow...but thanks for the link. Sep 01 23:43:38 :) Sep 01 23:43:45 hopefully I'll be on here for the next few months. Sep 01 23:43:48 but we'll see. Sep 01 23:44:40 odin_: what do you need to know? Sep 01 23:45:45 well I gather that "the public" (i.e. non intel/nokia/committers) can't have read-only access to obs (to download/copypac) sources until obs has been upgraded to 2.x, maybe 2.1.x Sep 01 23:46:07 I hear this is pencilled in for this time, i.e. now to take place Sep 01 23:46:54 should be complete in a few weeks time as I remember Sep 01 23:47:08 there was a minor update a few days back, but not 2.1.x Sep 01 23:47:31 since this access has been waited for; for coming on to 5 months now Sep 01 23:48:09 * CosmoHill makes some changes to the who's who page Sep 01 23:48:25 CosmoHill, you can say that again Sep 01 23:48:37 i have met lots of folks and am constantly surprised Sep 01 23:48:59 reordering who's in the wrong position in the list Sep 01 23:50:30 CosmoHill, the worst part about meeting people when theres so many is remembering names and faces afterwards and connecting the dots back together. i keep taking pictures and making notes as I meet folks now Sep 01 23:50:50 oh that part Sep 01 23:50:58 that makes sense Sep 01 23:51:29 people should wear name tags all the time to avoid confusion :) Sep 01 23:51:46 (I have a terrible memory for names, and it would help me so much!) Sep 01 23:51:47 DawnFoster, i still need to take photos of them Sep 01 23:52:07 and the barcode fad is why i spoke to lardman about decoding after the fact Sep 01 23:52:19 just take pics and collate afterwards from badges Sep 01 23:52:52 done, community list is now in order :) Sep 01 23:53:16 cosmoHill - thanks Sep 01 23:53:29 my first real contribution \o/ Sep 01 23:53:31 CosmoHill: see that meego.com account came in handy Sep 01 23:53:41 ironically I'm dyslexic >.< Sep 01 23:53:43 CosmoHill, you have spent months contributing! Sep 01 23:54:09 yay Sep 01 23:54:17 lcuk: I made him actually sign up for an account last month when he was a top IRC contributor with no account :) Sep 01 23:54:21 lcuk: for synchronizing pulse audio network streams, one could use algorithms similar to echo-cancellation to detect the amount of time-lag between the stream on once device and the local device (using the microphone to monitor the other device's audio speaker output) Sep 01 23:54:24 haha Sep 01 23:54:31 lcuk: on those notes do you also have phonetic pronouciations? Sep 01 23:54:31 I had nothing to link to in my blog post Sep 01 23:54:53 CosmoHill, usually no, i take notes like i used to have my floppy disk collection Sep 01 23:55:02 DawnFoster: "Member since, 3 hours ago" :p Sep 01 23:55:17 a bit of a word or phrase is usually enough to remember convo Sep 01 23:55:41 ok, guys - I'm outta here. Heading to the gym. Sep 01 23:55:42 we also need continuous speech recognition Sep 01 23:55:45 btw, * Valtteri Halla (Nokia) - Benevolent dictator * Imad Sousou/imad (Intel) - Benevolent dictator Sep 01 23:55:47 cyas DawnFoster Sep 01 23:55:49 hilarious Sep 01 23:55:49 enjoy Sep 01 23:55:50 have fun DawnFoster Sep 01 23:55:53 pupnik, hmm different topic Sep 01 23:55:58 happy fitness DawnFoster Sep 01 23:56:08 OpenSoundControl library has network wide time sync stuff afaik Sep 01 23:56:18 interesting lcuk Sep 01 23:56:35 * lcuk watches dawn get in her car, drive to gym, go up the escalator... Sep 01 23:56:39 kids would love to be able to playback synched music from several devices Sep 01 23:57:03 bandwidth pupnik Sep 01 23:57:16 assuming same songs available i would agree Sep 01 23:57:18 lcuk: :) Sep 01 23:57:19 I should have ordered the meego developer's list whilst I was at it Sep 01 23:57:24 and have super surround sound Sep 01 23:57:29 (and I suppose at some point I should add myself) Sep 01 23:57:33 DawnFoster, say it aint so! Sep 01 23:58:16 I had to actually drive to work, so I am driving to the gym :) Sep 01 23:58:23 :D Sep 01 23:58:25 lcuk: the synchronized player could rely upon local stored mp3s as well as other stream sources Sep 01 23:58:30 * lcuk is pulling your leg Sep 01 23:58:31 normally, I work from home and just run up my local mountain Sep 01 23:58:42 yes, I have a local mountain :P Sep 01 23:58:48 wait what? Sep 01 23:58:54 awesome Sep 01 23:58:56 it's an old volcano Sep 01 23:58:58 nice Sep 01 23:59:02 I've been to the highest point in my country Sep 01 23:59:04 I want a local mountian Sep 01 23:59:13 I think I hit 30mph on the way down on my bike Sep 01 23:59:15 well, I guess Twin Peaks (in San Francisco) Sep 01 23:59:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tabor Sep 01 23:59:31 it's not as tall as the other mountains in Oregon Sep 01 23:59:56 and the run up the mountain is painful, but the run down the mountain to get back home is so much fun! Sep 02 00:00:07 oops, wrong mt. tabor Sep 02 00:00:16 yeah that's in irerail Sep 02 00:00:18 DawnFoster, you run to israel? Sep 02 00:00:18 ha! Sep 02 00:00:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tabor,_Portland,_Oregon Sep 02 00:00:22 lol Sep 02 00:00:35 do you run with a bull proof vest on? Sep 02 00:00:36 yes, across the ocean and into Israel every day :) Sep 02 00:00:50 gentle swim does you good Sep 02 00:01:16 CosmoHill, "a bull proof vest" incase a matador chases one down the street at you? Sep 02 00:01:45 would be great for running with the bulls in Spain Sep 02 00:01:58 that's "stab proof" Sep 02 00:02:20 you don't often see software developer impailed on bulls Sep 02 00:02:23 * CosmoHill looks at EA Sep 02 00:02:28 ok, this time I really am going to the gym. Sep 02 00:02:32 bye bye Sep 02 00:02:33 cya DawnFoster \o Sep 02 00:03:41 I'm off too Sep 02 00:03:47 I need that thing called sleep Sep 02 00:03:54 i just noticed that too Sep 02 00:04:04 * lcuk has to be up early, gnite Sep 02 00:04:11 I have to be up in late setember :o Sep 02 00:04:15 night night everyone Sep 02 00:04:27 \o **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Sep 02 02:59:58 2010