**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Sep 06 02:59:57 2010 Sep 06 05:31:33 hi Sep 06 05:31:40 hi Sep 06 05:32:59 i once got meego installed on my phone, and it got to an xterm Sep 06 05:33:04 after that, nothing Sep 06 05:33:06 install a later image Sep 06 05:33:07 what do i do after that? Sep 06 05:33:29 you'll need a microsd card and http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php and http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC Sep 06 05:33:31 from here: http://meegoarena.com/2010/03/meego-now-available-for-download-for-nokia-n900/ ? Sep 06 05:33:38 ok Sep 06 05:33:58 thanks Sep 06 05:33:59 don't use shady news sites for information :) Sep 06 05:34:30 meh Sep 06 05:34:34 i used the main site in the past Sep 06 05:35:46 anyway, do they yet have sweet tools in meego to sync contacts with what's in my google account? Sep 06 05:35:51 nop Sep 06 05:35:55 well, at least not handset Sep 06 05:35:55 dang Sep 06 05:35:57 ah Sep 06 05:36:07 that will be nice if it shows up; my android phone has that Sep 06 05:36:37 yeah, but android phones are usually blessed with google apps ;) Sep 06 05:36:59 yes Sep 06 05:37:08 but should be open protocols, at least i'd think Sep 06 05:37:13 and i guess it will show up once the os shows up :) Sep 06 05:37:13 i don't know about this though Sep 06 05:37:17 yeah Sep 06 05:37:27 doubtful Sep 06 05:37:44 well, yes, google offer syncml, but it's contacts only Sep 06 05:37:44 i just want my n900 to be relevant :) nokia basically screwed up almost immediately with it Sep 06 05:37:50 screwed us* Sep 06 05:37:57 and you would be able to get that working with syncevolution or something Sep 06 05:38:03 ah Sep 06 05:38:03 (probably) Sep 06 05:38:13 but it would take some work. :p Sep 06 05:38:18 yeah Sep 06 05:43:52 hi again Sep 06 05:49:57 waiting to see if i get sponsored for dublin :) Sep 06 05:50:33 still some time to go on that matter Sep 06 05:52:01 I'm waiting to see if I get ordered to go ;) Sep 06 05:52:03 yes, they decision will be made by end of september /beginning of october Sep 06 06:24:57 for non eu citizens, start your visa process now :) Sep 06 06:28:31 process for? Sep 06 06:28:44 dublin immigration :) Sep 06 06:29:10 don't they give you visas on arrival? Sep 06 06:29:14 they did in 2006 when I was there Sep 06 06:29:30 are you an EU citizen or US citizen? Sep 06 06:29:39 no, Brazilian citizen Sep 06 06:29:58 http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Do_I_need_a_Visa Sep 06 06:30:25 i am indian citizen Sep 06 06:30:34 Brazil is a schedule 1 land Sep 06 06:30:59 thiago_home: read the latest email on meego-community regarding sponsorship Sep 06 06:31:07 India does not appear in schedule 1 Sep 06 06:31:25 so you will need a visa before landing in Ireland if you're an India Sep 06 06:31:28 *n Sep 06 06:31:32 i'm a US citizen Sep 06 06:31:37 do i need a visa to stay home? Sep 06 06:31:52 USA is a sched1 country -> no visa needed beforehand to fly to ireland Sep 06 06:31:54 * thiago_home was there in 2006 Sep 06 06:32:00 Gorroth: no but you need a gun permit Sep 06 06:32:05 this order is apparently from 2004 Sep 06 06:32:08 no, you only need a gun permit in 2 states Sep 06 06:32:17 thiago_home: depends on the country AFAIK Sep 06 06:32:27 which i don't see how that's legal, but i will digress from that subject for now Sep 06 06:32:30 Gorroth: depends on what you're doing with it Sep 06 06:32:40 no, it depends on the state Sep 06 06:32:53 Gorroth: also depends on the weapon too Sep 06 06:33:14 no, it doesn't Sep 06 06:33:20 again depends on state Sep 06 06:33:29 -off-topic, self-censoring Sep 06 06:33:49 yes, that's what i tried to say earlier :) Sep 06 06:33:58 achipa: my citizenship hasn't changed since 2006 Sep 06 06:34:11 anyone having doubts about immigration visa, please check the irish immigration website etc. Sep 06 06:34:16 http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Do_I_need_a_Visa Sep 06 06:38:49 this page says differently (yes, it's in Portuguese): http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=71344 Sep 06 06:39:31 LISTA DOS PAÍSES CUJOS CIDADÃOS NÃO NECESSITAM DE VISTO DE ENTRADA: ... Brasil.... Sep 06 06:40:05 that's what I said, no visa needed to enter? Sep 06 06:40:11 the thing is: yes, you need a visa. but you get a visa at the airport Sep 06 06:40:17 well yeah Sep 06 06:40:28 enter without, stay with valid visa :) Sep 06 06:40:39 that's how most countries in the world are Sep 06 06:40:54 it's just a stamp in your passport usually Sep 06 06:40:54 see also this one: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/moving-to-ireland/coming-to-live-in-ireland/visa-requirements-for-entering-ireland Sep 06 06:42:33 india is neither in sched 1 or sched 2 ?? Sep 06 06:43:01 an again: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/travel-and-recreation/travel-to-ireland/visas_for_tourists_visiting_ireland Sep 06 06:43:16 if you're not listed in the "you don't require visa", then you do require a visa Sep 06 06:43:28 correct Sep 06 06:43:33 if you're not listed in the list "you require a transit visa", then you can land in ireland and connect to another flight without a visa Sep 06 06:43:44 so, India is not listed Sep 06 06:44:02 so, people from india can transit, but not enter Ireland without an entry visa Sep 06 06:45:12 contact the embassy or closest consulate Sep 06 06:45:17 that's a question they know well Sep 06 06:45:52 amjad: I suggest that exactly: take your passport to the local irish consulate/embassy Sep 06 06:46:07 I do not know what they require Sep 06 06:46:32 call them first :-) Sep 06 06:46:42 knowing embassies, they want money :) Sep 06 06:46:50 yes, which is why you should call Sep 06 06:47:11 anyway, like I said, I have been to Ireland before Sep 06 06:47:40 the immigration is like the UK: you talk to an officer at the airport, you explain you're coming for a conference, for N days, then you get a stamp Sep 06 06:47:51 ireland might like india because they both start with I, but india is ranked higher in alphabetical listings Sep 06 06:47:58 so they don't let you in Sep 06 06:48:10 lol Sep 06 06:48:20 Gorroth: well, Ireland in Irish starts with E :-) Sep 06 06:48:25 oh Sep 06 06:48:28 pwnd Sep 06 06:48:32 :) Sep 06 06:52:52 then again, it depends on your collation order Sep 06 06:53:10 it's Éire Sep 06 06:54:09 fabo:ping Sep 06 06:54:33 fabo: p Sep 06 06:55:07 john1: pong Sep 06 06:55:27 I'm looking at your packages. Sep 06 06:56:06 There's no pacakge depends on madde? Sep 06 06:57:15 john1: not yet, it's supposed to be pull through meta package Sep 06 06:57:42 is "meego-sdk" the meta package? Sep 06 06:57:52 atm, you need to specify which package you want to install until we polish the meta Sep 06 06:58:10 john1: yes or meego-sdk-x86 Sep 06 07:00:23 OK. I see. Sep 06 07:05:55 thiago_home: cool, but Brazil (IIUC your citizenship) is on the visa-free list. Some of us sadly travel with papers from countries NOT on that list Sep 06 07:06:36 achipa: yup, unfortunately for some people visiting the conference is a lot more work Sep 06 07:06:40 take me, for instance Sep 06 07:07:03 I'm a EU citizen, yet I had to travel 1200km in order to be able to make it there :) Sep 06 07:07:19 that's what you get if you live in the US and you need to renew your passport, lol Sep 06 07:07:31 thiago_home: (just realized my native European country is in the company of Afghanistan, Cuba and similarly exotic places) Sep 06 07:20:43 sofar: can't you renew your passport in a closer embassy or consulate? Sep 06 07:21:00 sofar: or was 1200 km the closest consulate? Sep 06 07:21:02 I would have Sep 06 07:21:03 yes Sep 06 07:21:15 from Portland, the closest is San Francisco Sep 06 07:21:32 otherwise it's Chicago or worse, Washington DC lol Sep 06 07:22:31 that explains Sep 06 07:22:46 the embassy is much closer for me... about 20 tram stops only Sep 06 09:04:16 does anyone here know the difference between an aava EV1 and an EV2 and a DV1? Sep 06 10:25:51 tekojo: ethernet cable again? Sep 06 10:26:19 no, playing with Ubuntu maverick :) Sep 06 10:27:39 "the pen far mighter than the sword he said, then he stabbed his pen into my leg" Sep 06 10:31:42 I'm making a openmpi rpm Sep 06 10:34:48 um is bognor-regis & bickley still being used? Sep 06 10:39:03 * CosmoHill headbangs desk Sep 06 10:39:18 mpi is a protocol so what does it need? ports to be opened Sep 06 10:46:01 mpi ussualy works over ssh Sep 06 10:47:53 i have a linux server, linux vm (same distro), a mac and I'll boot RHEL on my laptop Sep 06 10:48:40 mac is version 0.2 behind linux Sep 06 10:48:56 that might need to be recompiled Sep 06 11:03:10 dotblank: had any success? Sep 06 11:11:07 hmm, crap Sep 06 11:11:24 firewall wouldn't have anything to do with it cos it doesn't filter the LAN Sep 06 11:19:13 Sage: yt? Sep 06 11:20:02 hmm, it is my firewall Sep 06 12:03:58 i guys im trying to install the header files for gstreamer like this: zypper install libgstreamer0.10-dev Sep 06 12:04:09 however it complains it cannot find the package - any ideas? Sep 06 12:04:38 try: zypper search gstreamer Sep 06 12:04:48 thanks CosmoHill will do Sep 06 12:05:26 great thanks it's listed everything i need - much appreciated Sep 06 12:05:47 no problem :) Sep 06 12:14:40 "COMPAQ PRESARIO 2100 MOTHERBOARD IS FAULTY & DEAD - IN VERY GOOD CONDITION" Sep 06 12:14:52 that seems to contradict itself Sep 06 12:15:18 shiny and clean, no dust bunnies or scratches Sep 06 12:15:22 it's faulty & dead, but in very good condition otherwise Sep 06 12:15:25 yeah, like that Sep 06 12:18:10 only reason I'm looking is incase I kill the current motherboard Sep 06 13:59:04 Howdy. Any idea what sort of schedule there is before a meego phone hits the retailers? Sep 06 14:45:38 * CosmoHill returns Sep 06 14:47:04 Stskeeps, I got the meego sdk working but that seems horribly out of date. I also can't make a custom image because of the libc problem with mic Sep 06 14:47:38 could you not run "zypper update" inside the SDK vm? Sep 06 14:47:52 CosmoHill, I could try Sep 06 14:49:28 I'm not familiar with how meego does packaging Sep 06 14:50:18 CosmoHill: That reminds me... should I be using zypper or yum. Sep 06 14:50:30 zypper Sep 06 14:50:35 Thought it was either Sep 06 14:50:40 I think yum will be removed at some point Sep 06 14:50:45 Oh Sep 06 14:50:48 * slaine uses yum Sep 06 14:51:35 CosmoHill: Thanks. Yeah, apt-get didn't work so I had to punt. :-p Sep 06 14:52:39 * gabrbedd just realized that not everyone understands his reference to american football... Sep 06 14:53:40 CosmoHill: So, if I've been using yum... how do I go back to using zypper. Sep 06 14:53:52 CosmoHill: Seems like they don't work well together. Sep 06 14:54:39 probably best to stick with what you're using Sep 06 14:54:58 ok. I'll switch on the next reinstall. Sep 06 14:55:05 you could probably clean your yum cache and then try getting zypper to pull in some fresh data Sep 06 14:55:08 yum clean all Sep 06 14:56:43 from what i can tell they should not have any problem working together (or one after another :O) Sep 06 14:57:21 they shouldn't Sep 06 15:03:33 i like yum :) Sep 06 15:04:21 and it was created by my former company (yellow dog updater) before being developed and stabilized by duke Sep 06 15:04:25 i think it depends where they get there data from Sep 06 15:04:33 they might have different databases Sep 06 15:04:41 you might be able to update one from the other Sep 06 15:05:31 yes, the use their own databases, except the rpm database of installed packages Sep 06 15:05:41 s/the/they/ Sep 06 15:05:42 jniq meant: yes, they use their own databases, except the rpm database of installed packages Sep 06 15:06:40 i just thought of that Sep 06 15:06:54 my server doesn't have yum or zypper Sep 06 15:06:59 I use rpm directly Sep 06 15:08:21 CosmoHill: that's also a way to go, but yum or zypper give you automatic dependency solving, and a lot of other things Sep 06 15:08:49 this is true Sep 06 15:09:12 however my server runs a custom distro which I have to compile everything for :) Sep 06 15:13:34 I run ubuntu and I feel like Ive already compiled from git/bzr/svn half of the system Sep 06 15:13:56 slowly replacing my machone into this odd hybrid computer Sep 06 15:14:02 machine* Sep 06 15:14:39 I've formated my server before and then gone: Sep 06 15:15:00 "oh crap, I had stuff I needed in /home. and I have no idea how I configured this stuff, dammnit" Sep 06 15:17:05 Hee hee... I can't say I've dont /that/ -- but close. Sep 06 15:17:40 I have /home on a separate partition Sep 06 15:18:45 <_Lucretia_> anybody replaced the toolchain in madde? Sep 06 15:19:41 I wonder if anyone (probably kids) think that the intel processor range went: i3, i386, i486, i5, i586, i686, i7 Sep 06 15:20:30 lol intel, I have a hp processor Sep 06 15:20:57 so do I :) Sep 06 15:21:06 HPPA 7100 80Mhz :) Sep 06 15:21:41 is it wrong that my iPod can out perform this computer? Sep 06 15:21:46 Ive got an Aztec Cortex in my phone Sep 06 15:22:23 ipod: 2 x 80Mhz, 64MB RAM, 80GB HDD Sep 06 15:22:33 computer: 1 x 80Mhz, 64MB RAM, 1GB SCSI Sep 06 15:22:49 my phone outpowers my grandfathers computer Sep 06 15:23:12 was he a grandad when he bought it? Sep 06 15:23:14 we got the to moon with a sliderule Sep 06 15:23:14 400mhz with a 700mb hard drive Sep 06 15:23:26 CosmoHill, no Sep 06 15:23:36 was he a father? Sep 06 15:23:43 yes Sep 06 15:23:51 I'm fairly young Sep 06 15:24:38 http://i.imgur.com/9h8HU.jpg Sep 06 15:24:38 is this where you say something older than me? Sep 06 15:24:45 CosmoHill, dotblank ^ Sep 06 15:25:03 lcuk, you browse reddit much? Sep 06 15:25:06 lol Sep 06 15:25:24 twitter at weekend Sep 06 15:25:34 i retweeted and your conversation reminded me :P Sep 06 15:26:35 I wonder if we can port Space Trajectory Analysis to meego/maemo Sep 06 15:26:53 I saw it was based off of qt Sep 06 15:27:43 is that a game? Sep 06 15:28:01 No its used by the ESA and several schools Sep 06 15:28:18 n900fly teaches people about trajectory analysis Sep 06 15:28:27 http://sta.estec.esa.int/Space_Trajectory_Analysis/Home.html Sep 06 15:28:30 lcuk: yep Sep 06 15:28:37 you need to be good at that to beat the records Sep 06 15:28:49 thiago, i wonder how it would work on space station Sep 06 15:29:00 do astronauts taken nokias into space? Sep 06 15:29:19 -n Sep 06 15:29:26 lcuk: hmm... does the accelerometer measure gravity? Sep 06 15:29:28 * thiago tries Sep 06 15:29:53 lcuk, it would only show a change a velocity ie it would only register if you through it really fast or it hit a wall Sep 06 15:30:05 thiago, yes Sep 06 15:30:07 dotblank, 20000mph Sep 06 15:30:07 it does Sep 06 15:30:09 thiago: I think you have to drop your N900 from the 3rd floor to get a good measurement. Sep 06 15:30:31 my on-desk device isn't reporting anything Sep 06 15:30:33 so it would get record supremeness if you fired it in a rocket and orbited a few times Sep 06 15:30:49 so it requires free-fall to measure gravity Sep 06 15:30:52 thing is, would the guy get a 3g signal Sep 06 15:31:11 it takes the second anti-derivative of gravity to determine the fall distance and measures time till zero g Sep 06 15:31:24 cell tower handoffs at 35000feet are tough, 200miles can't be that much worse ;) Sep 06 15:32:09 its simple physics really Sep 06 15:32:11 dotblank: you need to integrate twice Sep 06 15:32:20 thiago, right Sep 06 15:32:25 "all computer problems can be solved by one extra level of indirection" Sep 06 15:32:34 "all physics problems can be solved by one extra integral" Sep 06 15:32:38 thiago: my n900 measures 1G directly down when "at rest" - as it should do Sep 06 15:32:51 ali1234: I have a different device... Sep 06 15:32:56 ali1234, what happens if your on the moon Sep 06 15:33:01 ali1234, speak for yourself. it measures whatever local gravity is around :P Sep 06 15:33:06 /dev/input/accelerometer is quiet with the device at rest Sep 06 15:33:11 ali1234, is there some constant set that determines what the 1g is? Sep 06 15:33:42 dotblank: it would measure 0.16 on the moon Sep 06 15:33:50 mine says "buy me" Sep 06 15:33:55 and yes, the chip can be calibrated Sep 06 15:33:59 what's the name of the repository in which meego-panel resides? Sep 06 15:34:05 so you can make a n900 app determine what planet you are on Sep 06 15:34:19 not really no Sep 06 15:34:31 it doesn't know it is at rest Sep 06 15:34:51 I think it does Sep 06 15:34:58 something like this: http://www.google.com/codesearch/p?hl=pt-BR#owgze1-rCng/include/hardware/sensors.h&q=libhardware package:"git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/hardware/libhardware.git"&sa=N&cd=10&ct=rc ? Sep 06 15:35:06 #define GRAVITY_EARTH (9.80665f) Sep 06 15:35:15 #define GRAVITY_MOON (1.6f) Sep 06 15:35:22 o_O Sep 06 15:35:24 #define GRAVITY_DEATH_STAR_I (0.000000353036145f) Sep 06 15:35:34 haha Sep 06 15:35:45 CosmoHill: lol! Sep 06 15:35:55 Let the world know: We are ready to operate on a death star I Sep 06 15:35:55 I thought the accelerometer would measure gravity? Sep 06 15:36:06 how else would it know? Sep 06 15:36:08 thiago: did you see the Qt app I started? Sep 06 15:36:15 CosmoHill: no, I haven't. Where is it? Sep 06 15:36:37 dotblank: it measures proper acceleration, which is "what you feel when you go in a lift" Sep 06 15:36:39 http://black-flag.co.uk/files/node-selector.png Sep 06 15:37:36 ali1234: the thing that makes me close my eyes and be very very quiet? Sep 06 15:37:40 CosmoHill: interesting. Do we get the hardware that it controls too? :-) Sep 06 15:38:07 you've got enough hardware you could probably vertialise my cluster AND out perform it Sep 06 15:38:26 Why does the n900 accelerometer app show gravity then? Sep 06 15:38:49 * thiago wonders why the magnetometer has 3 axes Sep 06 15:38:49 something to do in long lifts? Sep 06 15:38:52 dotblank: because you're constantly accelerating towards the ground Sep 06 15:39:10 something for the kids to watch on a hilly road? Sep 06 15:39:12 ali1234, right.... and that accel would be different on every planet Sep 06 15:39:20 dotblank: yes Sep 06 15:39:28 thus you can find out what planet you are on by using that app Sep 06 15:39:36 unless you're in freefall Sep 06 15:39:43 then it reads 0 on any planet Sep 06 15:39:51 ali1234, right Sep 06 15:39:53 and so on... Sep 06 15:40:04 * gabrbedd wonders what planet he's on. Sep 06 15:40:10 it only works if the n900 is on the ground Sep 06 15:40:25 or rather, motionless relative to the ground Sep 06 15:40:31 because of the reference frame of the accelerometer Sep 06 15:40:33 given its name, I'd expect an accelerometer to measure the acceleration of gravity Sep 06 15:41:05 9.81m/s/s Sep 06 15:41:10 acceleration due to gravity is just one component of what it measures Sep 06 15:41:22 for a device at rest, I mean Sep 06 15:41:29 yes it could measure other things then just gravity Sep 06 15:41:54 the gravity vector points in one direction only, which may or may not match the accelerometer's axes Sep 06 15:42:01 but it should be constantly measuring it Sep 06 15:42:07 it does Sep 06 15:42:09 the only way not to see it would be to go to another planet Sep 06 15:42:25 or put the accelerometer into freefall Sep 06 15:42:28 you could in thoery integrate position from the accel sensor and determine how far you've traveled in a car Sep 06 15:42:34 then it will read 0 Sep 06 15:42:40 ali1234: that doesn't change the acceleration Sep 06 15:42:45 of course it does Sep 06 15:43:07 it changes the proper acceleration Sep 06 15:43:16 now, an accelerometer that measures the gravity isn't useful. It needs to measure the device's acceleration Sep 06 15:43:23 and if it's at rest, it's not accelerating Sep 06 15:43:39 it depends on the definition of "at rest" Sep 06 15:43:53 the sensor still reads a force acting on it Sep 06 15:44:00 not subjected to external forces Sep 06 15:44:09 net unbalanced external forces Sep 06 15:44:19 "not subject to external forces" is impossible to achieve in the real universe Sep 06 15:44:27 right Sep 06 15:44:34 its actually the net for in relation to the n900 Sep 06 15:44:37 if a device has constant velocity... it is not accelerating. So an accelerometer should read 0. Sep 06 15:44:39 not subjected to net unbanalanced external focrces Sep 06 15:44:40 force Sep 06 15:44:56 the n900 at rest has net force zero Sep 06 15:45:06 if the vector sum of all forces is null, then the accelerometer should zero in all axes Sep 06 15:45:09 which it's doing Sep 06 15:46:25 if the n900 is falling.. the sensor relative to the n900 sees a force of 0 Sep 06 15:46:37 that seems wrong Sep 06 15:46:43 it's also different from the device I'm playing with Sep 06 15:46:46 dotblank: No, if the N900 is in terminal velocity... it sees 0. Sep 06 15:46:59 in fact gravity is the one thing an accelerometer does not measure Sep 06 15:47:01 dotblank: But when you first drop it, it sees 9.81 m/s^2. Sep 06 15:47:24 ali1234: why not? Sep 06 15:47:25 Ok I just installed an app to measure it on my n900 Sep 06 15:47:27 just put it in free-fall Sep 06 15:47:35 I love it when new members join the forums (not meego) and instantly get into a fight with regulars Sep 06 15:47:44 at rest it reads -0.93 on the z axis Sep 06 15:47:57 * thiago doesn't know how to read from /dev/input Sep 06 15:48:03 the 9.8 /1G reading you get when the n900 is sitting on the floor is due to the reaction force exerted by the floor on the n900 which stops the n900 from being sucked to the core of the planet Sep 06 15:48:41 this is a weird physics lesson Sep 06 15:48:41 ali1234, right that makes sense Sep 06 15:48:47 ali1234: the accelerometer shouldn't read anything if it's not being accelerated Sep 06 15:49:10 ali1234, but what direction is the positive z direction relative to the n900? Sep 06 15:49:19 cause I read -0.93 Sep 06 15:49:35 thiago, it's always being accelerated on a planet. Sep 06 15:49:37 dotblank: it's either up or down depending on how you look at it Sep 06 15:49:43 GAN900: no, it's not Sep 06 15:49:49 it's always subjected to gravity, that's different Sep 06 15:49:50 in free fall it's not Sep 06 15:50:00 rkbm: no, in free fall it's being accelerated Sep 06 15:50:04 at rest, it's not accelerating Sep 06 15:50:10 the frame of referance to the n900 and the sensor sees 0 acceleration Sep 06 15:50:30 you can make a device that measures the gravity Sep 06 15:50:33 thiago, in freefall its accelerating relative to the ground Sep 06 15:50:45 thiago, but the n900 can't see that Sep 06 15:50:59 and I can imagine that some accelerometer devices actually report the acceleration of gravity, as if the device were in free fall Sep 06 15:51:50 thiago, right now my n900 is reporting the reactive force of my desk with my n900 which happens to = gravity in the opposite direction Sep 06 15:52:36 imagine the accelerometer is 3-axis spring+load system Sep 06 15:52:47 and the value reported is the extension of the spring Sep 06 15:52:57 the spring parallel to gravity will be reporting acceleration Sep 06 15:52:58 in free fall it reports 0 acceleration Sep 06 15:53:33 if you put that on a space station in orbit it will read 0 Sep 06 15:53:34 but the device isn't being accelerated Sep 06 15:53:35 thiago, but in freefall the device whatever the spring is connected to is also accelerating Sep 06 15:53:49 but if the space station is not affected by gravity, what keeps it in orbit? Sep 06 15:53:49 dotblank: right. That's a construction issue Sep 06 15:54:00 ali1234: the space stations are in constant free-fall Sep 06 15:54:13 exactly. free-fall = weightless = accelerometer reads 0 Sep 06 15:54:39 I think it just depends on the device's construction Sep 06 15:54:43 ali1234, ats actually the centrifugal force acting on the station.. thats why it has to move fast around the earth Sep 06 15:54:58 dotblank: centrifugal force is fictitious Sep 06 15:55:06 centripetal force isn't though Sep 06 15:55:21 I might have gotten 2 of them backwards Sep 06 15:55:26 and the orbit speed does have to be correct to balance everything out Sep 06 15:55:34 ali1234: in the device I described, the accelerometer would read the gravity Sep 06 15:55:38 ali1234: No, free-fall is not weightless. Terminal velocity is. Sep 06 15:55:56 ali1234: but it could be constructed in a way that it measures actual acceleration of the device Sep 06 15:56:04 ali1234: and if it's at rest, it's not being accelerated Sep 06 15:56:31 well I have my n900 right now and when the device is at rest it measures gravity when falling it measures 0 Sep 06 15:56:39 gabrbedd: no. free-fall = weightless. terminal velocity = the max speed due to wind resistance, and since you stop accelerating here, you stop being weightless too Sep 06 15:56:50 think about an INS: it's constantly integrating the acceleration to calculate the position Sep 06 15:56:58 when youre trapped in a box unable to look outside you won't be able to distinguish if any acceleration you feel is caused by gravity or something else (rocket engine etc.). Sep 06 15:57:12 ali1234: Look, acceleration is the time-derivative of velocity. Sep 06 15:57:16 if one axis is measuring acceleration, then the integration will conclude that you have velocity in that direction (and that velocity is changing), and therefore your position is changing Sep 06 15:57:26 ali1234: If your velocity is changing... you are accelerating. Sep 06 15:57:39 ali1234: When your velocity stops changing, acceleration is 0. Sep 06 15:57:55 in referance to the ground Sep 06 15:58:01 no reference Sep 06 15:58:04 gabrbedd: and that has nothing to do with "weightlessness" Sep 06 15:58:05 acceleration doesn't need reference Sep 06 15:58:05 but say some other object falling nexct to you its 0 Sep 06 15:58:18 thiago, ummm..... Sep 06 15:58:27 ali1234: Terminal velocity is when wind resistance is enough to overcome the force of gravity and your accel. goes to 0. Sep 06 15:58:49 that's right Sep 06 15:58:53 ali1234: When your accelleration is 0, then is is an experience like weightlessness. Sep 06 15:58:55 position is relative and it doesn't matter if you take a derivitive of it its still relative Sep 06 15:59:02 so since you are no longer in free fall you are no longer weightless Sep 06 15:59:07 gabrbedd: no, that's the experience of being at rest Sep 06 15:59:37 in fact acceleration HAS to be relative Sep 06 15:59:50 dotblank: no... velocity has to Sep 06 16:00:05 dotblank: speed is relative. Acceleration isn't. Sep 06 16:00:13 thiago, mathematically it doesn't Sep 06 16:00:19 dotblank: physically it is Sep 06 16:00:31 if you're in an accelerating frame of reference, you'll find fictitious forces Sep 06 16:00:45 forces that seemingly violate the Action/Reaction law Sep 06 16:01:00 so what your saying is that acceleration isn't relative? Sep 06 16:01:02 what? Sep 06 16:01:04 yes, I am Sep 06 16:01:10 at least in classical physics Sep 06 16:01:20 to make it non-relative, you need to go to General Relativity Sep 06 16:01:23 um im not so sure of that Sep 06 16:01:26 how can it be Sep 06 16:01:33 * CosmoHill gets itchy trigger fingers Sep 06 16:01:46 that wasn't me Sep 06 16:01:52 dotblank: imagine it like this: you're at the same velocity as your frame of reference Sep 06 16:01:58 k Sep 06 16:01:59 that is, you're inside this train carriage Sep 06 16:02:05 right Sep 06 16:02:06 acceleration is zero for both Sep 06 16:02:12 right Sep 06 16:02:22 now you suddenly accelerate. The train doesn't. Sep 06 16:02:25 you notice it, right? Sep 06 16:02:41 right Sep 06 16:02:45 now imagine the inverse: the train accelerates Sep 06 16:02:57 if you're standing in the middle of the carriage, you notice it, right? Sep 06 16:03:15 right Sep 06 16:03:20 what if you're standing leaning on the bulkhead Sep 06 16:03:21 but thats inertia Sep 06 16:03:28 you'll accelerate with the train, right? Sep 06 16:03:36 if you are leaning on the bulkhead you feel exactly the same thing Sep 06 16:03:42 but you still feel it Sep 06 16:03:42 if you don't move in the train and the train accelerates Sep 06 16:03:43 you still feel the acceleration Sep 06 16:03:57 that's exactly it: inertia Sep 06 16:03:59 * TSCHAKeee2 smiles Sep 06 16:04:05 then technically your acceleration to the train is 0 relative to the train Sep 06 16:04:20 to the ground its differant Sep 06 16:04:30 right, but you felt the acceleration, right? Sep 06 16:04:34 even if you couldn't see outside Sep 06 16:04:35 right Sep 06 16:04:41 FYI: the vomit comet is designed to emulate a 0g environment. The 0g portion is at the top when acceleration is close to 0. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomit_Comet Sep 06 16:04:48 that means you can tell an accelerating frame of reference from an inertial one Sep 06 16:05:10 especially when you're drunk Sep 06 16:05:14 yep Sep 06 16:05:14 *ba-dum-ching* Sep 06 16:05:25 a good example of a non-inertial frame of reference is the surface of the Earth Sep 06 16:05:38 fill a bucket of water and make hole in the bottom Sep 06 16:05:45 see a vortex effect? Sep 06 16:05:55 ;) Sep 06 16:06:04 oh no... Sep 06 16:06:10 thiago, well you may need to scale it slightly larger Sep 06 16:06:24 it's a simple test to verify that you are in a non-inertial frame of reference Sep 06 16:06:47 the coriolis force is fictitious Sep 06 16:07:44 lets say our entire solar system is accelerating towards some black hole.. would you feel it? Sep 06 16:08:04 yes Sep 06 16:08:22 how? Sep 06 16:08:39 by measuring a fictitious force Sep 06 16:08:57 you can't measure an individual force Sep 06 16:09:01 you can Sep 06 16:09:03 you can only measure the sum of them Sep 06 16:09:07 right Sep 06 16:09:16 but if you account for everything else and you still have a non-zero result... Sep 06 16:09:45 so how does your measurement device measure "everything else" in order to subtract it? Sep 06 16:09:58 imagine we're on a spaceship with no windows and we're accelerating towards a black hole Sep 06 16:10:09 ok Sep 06 16:10:11 if you put a ball on a table, it's going to fall, right? Sep 06 16:10:15 no Sep 06 16:10:21 everything in the spaceship will be weightless Sep 06 16:10:22 (suppose we have artificial gravity) Sep 06 16:10:25 you would feel inertial force in opposition to the acceleration towards the black holes Sep 06 16:10:26 yes Sep 06 16:10:32 even if we are outside of gravity Sep 06 16:10:41 the ball will still fall towards one of the bulkheads Sep 06 16:10:47 no, that's incorrect Sep 06 16:10:51 sorry, it is Sep 06 16:10:54 but the question is more on the lines of inertia Sep 06 16:10:59 if you're accel. toward a black hole... you're not actually "weightless" -- you're in a micro-g environment. Sep 06 16:11:43 mass is the measure of interia. acceleration is the rate of change of velocity. Sep 06 16:11:45 inertia resists change in position right? so there must be a way to have absolute position then Sep 06 16:11:50 mass x accelertation = force. Sep 06 16:11:58 dotblank: resists change in velocity Sep 06 16:12:05 inertia is a tendency to resist change. Sep 06 16:12:29 thiago, ah ok Sep 06 16:12:31 you can measure gravity, right? Sep 06 16:12:41 my spring and load system Sep 06 16:12:51 no Sep 06 16:13:20 if you put a load at one end of a spring and hold it upright, you won't notice that the spring is extended? Sep 06 16:13:27 you can measure the normal reactive force against gravity Sep 06 16:13:31 yeah but that isn't measuring gravity Sep 06 16:13:44 it happens to equal gravity soo Sep 06 16:13:48 well, you're measuring the extension of the spring Sep 06 16:13:48 that's measuring proper acceleration Sep 06 16:14:16 from the extension of the spring, you can calculate the force that the load was subjected to Sep 06 16:14:23 if i grab the weight and pull on it, did gravity change? Sep 06 16:14:33 ali1234: that's another good example Sep 06 16:14:33 actually the centripetal force of use spining around earth's axis is subtracting from gravity we experiance Sep 06 16:14:39 us* Sep 06 16:14:39 Measuring gravity with high precision: http://www.earthsci.unimelb.edu.au/ES304/MODULES/GRAV/NOTES/measgrv.html Sep 06 16:14:56 if there were no gravity, the load would stay in constant direction after you ceased pulling on it Sep 06 16:14:59 right? Sep 06 16:15:09 newton's first law Sep 06 16:15:35 I feel like asking #physics Sep 06 16:16:05 let's try this: pick up something, hold it with your arm extended, then open your hand Sep 06 16:16:08 does it fall? Sep 06 16:16:16 thiago, yes Sep 06 16:16:17 * ShadowJK imagines the gravity gradient would let you determine the direction of the sum of all gravity forces you're experiencing, but not the magnitude without observing your acceleration Sep 06 16:16:30 that means the object, which was at rest, was accelerated, right? Sep 06 16:17:03 thiago, right but from the ferefance of the rock the molecules did not change in relation to each other Sep 06 16:17:20 we concluded that from newton's first law Sep 06 16:17:26 the second law says there was a force Sep 06 16:17:35 the third law says there must have been a reaction force Sep 06 16:17:36 where is it? Sep 06 16:17:37 dotblank: Centripetal acceleration is velocity^2 / radius... I've never calculated it for earth... but I'll bet it's small enough for you to ignore it on the N900. :-) Sep 06 16:18:22 just because there was a force and an acceleration does not mean you can measure it Sep 06 16:18:27 gabrbedd, maybe it would affect it by 0.01 m/s^s Sep 06 16:18:39 ali1234: I didn't say you had to measure it Sep 06 16:18:45 ali1234: but the point is that you can see its effects Sep 06 16:18:58 you can see it's effects sure Sep 06 16:19:03 that's what I am saying Sep 06 16:19:15 if you're in a frame of reference subjected to acceleration, you can see its effects Sep 06 16:19:27 and yes, you can measure the net acceleration Sep 06 16:19:31 so how are you going to build an accelerometer that measures "real" acceleration? Sep 06 16:19:37 thiago, not acceleration but the affect of inertia Sep 06 16:20:06 thiago, relative to the train you did not accelerate when the train accelerated Sep 06 16:20:13 hence, going back to the earlier discussion: acceleration is not relative in classical physics Sep 06 16:20:16 but you still felt inertia Sep 06 16:20:28 dotblank: Centripetal accel is about 3.39 cm/s^2... which is about 0.35% the size of earth's gravitational acceleration. http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=186 Sep 06 16:20:30 dotblank: actually, you felt the force that pushed you Sep 06 16:21:12 dotblank: are you sitting down? Sep 06 16:21:15 thiago, and.. if you didn't move you didn't accelerate Sep 06 16:21:27 *relative to the train Sep 06 16:21:35 dotblank: that's the point! Sep 06 16:21:37 so if the channel's dead I just need to ask a physics question? Sep 06 16:21:39 dotblank: you felt a force, didn't you? Sep 06 16:21:47 CosmoHill: you can ask meego questions in #physics :-) Sep 06 16:21:57 yay Sep 06 16:22:00 thiago, right but inertia isn't bound by frame of referance Sep 06 16:22:06 dotblank: inertia isn't Sep 06 16:22:09 but acceleration is Sep 06 16:22:38 dotblank: the point is that if you're in the train, standing with your back to the bulkhead and the train accelerates forward, you do feel a force Sep 06 16:22:43 you're pushed Sep 06 16:22:54 but you didn't move relative to the train, right? Sep 06 16:23:07 so im sitting on train the train goes faster my rate or change of my rate of change of position is not relative? Sep 06 16:23:18 sorry? Sep 06 16:23:26 thiago, I guess the point is inertia isn't relative Sep 06 16:23:32 inertia isn't relative Sep 06 16:23:38 right Sep 06 16:23:48 but my acceleration is relative to the train Sep 06 16:24:06 if you start walking in the train, you had acceleration relative to the train Sep 06 16:24:17 if I don't move when the train accelerates then my accel realtive to the train is still zero Sep 06 16:24:25 correct Sep 06 16:24:28 but you felt the acceleration, right? Sep 06 16:24:34 regardless of inertia Sep 06 16:25:02 did you feel the acceleration? Sep 06 16:25:14 thiago, more accurately you feel inertia not acceleration Sep 06 16:25:24 what you felt was the *proper* acceleration Sep 06 16:25:34 you can't feel inertia. You felt that your body resisted to the acceleration. Sep 06 16:25:38 anyway, you felt something Sep 06 16:25:50 acceleration HAS to be relative Sep 06 16:25:52 doesn't matter what we call it, you felt something. Sep 06 16:26:08 dotblank: Why does it HAVE to be relative? Sep 06 16:26:13 you assume that he can feel and he's not dead Sep 06 16:26:19 we know that acceleration equates to change in velocity Sep 06 16:26:31 but you didn't change position, so your velocity (relative to the train) is zero Sep 06 16:26:35 was zero, continues to be zero Sep 06 16:26:38 right but velocity is relative Sep 06 16:26:39 how do you explain that? Sep 06 16:26:48 because it's relative Sep 06 16:26:51 everything is relative Sep 06 16:27:01 jacekowski: acceleration and the speed of light aren't Sep 06 16:27:43 so we go back to what I said: you *know* the train accelerated Sep 06 16:27:54 that means you don't need an external reference to know that it accelerated Sep 06 16:28:03 therefore, acceleration isn't relative to an external reference Sep 06 16:28:20 no Sep 06 16:28:24 or earth stopped Sep 06 16:28:45 how do you tell the difference between constant acceleration of the train, and the train carriage standing on end? Sep 06 16:28:53 * slonopotamus first thought he joined #physics Sep 06 16:29:10 ali1234: you don't, but that's not the point Sep 06 16:29:16 ali1234: you still feel the acceleration Sep 06 16:29:17 thiago: it's entirely the point Sep 06 16:29:37 you can't separate out the forces to remove reaction due to gravity Sep 06 16:29:43 turns out people who love meego also love physics Sep 06 16:29:52 ali1234: you're back at the accelerometer? Sep 06 16:30:01 so you can't measure the "everything else" component, and therefore you can't measure gravity Sep 06 16:30:03 * thiago was talking about "acceleration is relative" part Sep 06 16:30:19 ali1234: gravity == force Sep 06 16:30:29 yes Sep 06 16:30:31 and you can measure it Sep 06 16:30:37 the dark side = force Sep 06 16:30:40 you can measure it *under controlled conditions* Sep 06 16:30:41 lol Sep 06 16:31:00 CosmoHill: Don't give in to hate! Sep 06 16:31:22 it takes so much effort to hold a grudge Sep 06 16:31:56 ali1234: ok, on the accelerometer: my spring+load accelerometer would find that there is a force in one direction Sep 06 16:32:08 ali1234: and it can't tell if it is the train accelerating or standing on end Sep 06 16:32:29 but back to the original point and from empirical evidance from my n900 the sensor shows zero force in free fall and a reaction force opposing gravity at rest Sep 06 16:32:50 dotblank: cos it is using the "spring+load system" with tiny MEMS springs Sep 06 16:33:09 dotblank: What happens if you turn the N900 on its side? Sep 06 16:33:23 gabrbedd, samething just along a different axis Sep 06 16:33:52 anyway, there must be a way of calibrating the system so that it can compensate for that Sep 06 16:33:53 gabrbedd, but its much harder to read Sep 06 16:34:08 the device isn't accelerating, so the accelerometer shouldn't be giving you an acceleration on one direction Sep 06 16:34:23 I'm not saying that the device that is on the N900 can do it Sep 06 16:34:27 So, it's like ali1234 says... they have a spring or gyro actually measuring the force of gravity... and compensating the accelerometer's readout through software. Sep 06 16:34:35 I'm saying that other types of accelerometers can do it, because these exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system Sep 06 16:34:35 thiago: acceleration == force Sep 06 16:34:42 thiago: and there is downwards force Sep 06 16:34:44 thiago: always Sep 06 16:34:50 jacekowski: there's also an upwards force of the desk Sep 06 16:34:58 no, there is no "compensating" involved Sep 06 16:35:15 jacekowski: and the accelerometer isn't measuring that, yet the device *is* subject to it Sep 06 16:35:31 ali1234: Ok. An accelerometer reporting non-zero when the device is stationary is broken. Sep 06 16:35:36 the upwards force of the desk is what it is measuring Sep 06 16:35:52 ali1234: that's just a change of sign Sep 06 16:36:04 the point is that the accelerometer reports a non-zero acceleration, right? Sep 06 16:36:07 with a spring balance you don['t measure gravity, you measure the force of your hand holding it against gravity Sep 06 16:36:12 yet empirical evidence says it's not accelerating Sep 06 16:36:13 my accelerometer must be broken then Sep 06 16:36:30 ali1234: you don't need a spring for that :-) Sep 06 16:36:32 if you let go of the top the spring returns to rest length, even though it is still under the force of gravity Sep 06 16:36:46 gravity didn't go away Sep 06 16:36:50 im reading -0.93 gs on the z axis on my desk right now Sep 06 16:37:21 dotblank: I was drawing an absurd conclusion based on "there is no 'compensating' involved" Sep 06 16:37:22 gravity is the only thing it *doesn't* measure Sep 06 16:37:35 dotblank: Obviously something is fiddling with the accelerometer's reading. Sep 06 16:38:01 gabrbedd, how its seems very raw and not manipulative to me Sep 06 16:39:03 acceleration = (d/dt)(mv). If m is constant, and v is constant... then acceleration is zero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration Sep 06 16:39:31 So an acceleratometer that reports non-zero when velocity is constant (e.g. 0) has been "tampered with" Sep 06 16:40:16 so its more measuring force Sep 06 16:40:33 it's measuring proper acceleration aka g-force Sep 06 16:41:10 "An accelerometer at rest relative to the Earth's surface will indicate approximately 1 g upwards, because any point on the Earth's surface is accelerating upwards relative to the local inertial frame (the frame of a freely falling object near the surface)." Sep 06 16:41:15 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerometer Sep 06 16:41:51 "The reason for the appearance of a gravitational offset is Einstein's equivalence principle,[2] which states that the effects of gravity on an object are indistinguishable from acceleration. " Sep 06 16:42:00 doh! that formula was hasty... accleration is dv/dt. Sep 06 16:44:04 hi everyone Sep 06 16:44:09 hi anndy Sep 06 16:44:14 there, I'm convinced that an accelerometer will read 1g Sep 06 16:44:34 (at rest, on earth) :) Sep 06 16:44:40 yes Sep 06 16:45:24 i have download the headset image and setup the environment on my ubuntu 1.04 box as per the instruction given on the wiki page Sep 06 16:45:38 if your accelerometer is reading 0 it might be miscalibrated... if you turn it upside down does it read 2? Sep 06 16:46:01 ali1234: I'm probably not reading it right Sep 06 16:46:05 but finally when i run the emulator it is showing a blank screen Sep 06 16:46:23 i have heard of the accelerometer chips randomly recalibrating themselves Sep 06 16:47:20 thiago: Yeah... I'm not sure that article is correct when it says, "An accelerometer at rest relative to the Earth's surface will indicate approximately 1 g upwards, because any point on the Earth's surface is accelerating upwards relative to the local inertial frame (the frame of a freely falling object near the surface)." Sep 06 16:47:23 not able to understand which step i am missing which is causing this problem Sep 06 16:47:23 well the two newies members have been banned Sep 06 16:47:28 ali1234: it reads +/- 1000 on the axis Sep 06 16:47:37 gabrbedd: that passage is weird Sep 06 16:47:46 (from KPC) Sep 06 16:47:55 gabrbedd: I accept that the accelerometer measures it Sep 06 16:48:16 that passage is correct Sep 06 16:48:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimeter Sep 06 16:49:35 thiago: it reads milli gs (at least n900 one does) Sep 06 16:49:45 ali1234: yep Sep 06 16:50:12 ali1234: my complaint is that the accelerometer is reading an acceleration, yet I'm seeing that my device is at rest Sep 06 16:50:30 *proper* acceleration Sep 06 16:50:41 if a=dv/dt, and a != 0, then why isn't v changing? Sep 06 16:50:58 has a flash back to A-level Physics while backreading Sep 06 16:51:02 because *proper* acceleration isn't the same thing as a in that equation Sep 06 16:51:21 understood Sep 06 16:51:39 just like "g-force" isn't the same thing as gravity :) Sep 06 16:52:29 I think this may be what's happening, from the "Accelerometer" article: Modern accelerometers are often small micro electro-mechanical systems (MEMS), and are indeed the simplest MEMS devices possible, consisting of little more than a cantilever beam with a proof mass (also known as seismic mass). Damping results from the residual gas sealed in the device. As long as the Q-factor is not too low, damping does not result in a lower Sep 06 16:52:29 sensitivity. Sep 06 16:53:01 gabrbedd: the same article says that an accelerometer needs to be calibrated to be used as an INS Sep 06 16:53:08 knowledge of the local gravity is necessary Sep 06 16:53:08 In this case, the cantilevered beam will be deflected as a result of gravity. Sep 06 16:53:30 gravity or acceleration Sep 06 16:53:35 you can't tell which it is Sep 06 16:53:48 BTW, cantilever with mass is a spring + mass system. Sep 06 16:54:42 So, it's actually constantly measureing the weights at the ends of the cantilevers... and is translating that to acceleration. Sep 06 16:54:50 yes Sep 06 16:55:14 ali1234: no, you can't Sep 06 16:55:35 i know, that's what i said :) Sep 06 16:55:35 ali1234: but the phone is also under another force, by the desk Sep 06 16:55:41 and that isn't being measured Sep 06 16:55:50 it is Sep 06 16:56:09 the force of the desk is being measured, the for of gravity is not Sep 06 16:56:33 fair enough Sep 06 16:56:39 remove desk -> phone free-falls -> accelerometer reads 0 Sep 06 16:56:42 there's still one force not being measured Sep 06 16:56:48 As a mech. eng... I typically don't think of the "cantilevered beam" system as an accelerometer -- but that's being nit-picky. It can be used as one. Sep 06 16:57:12 ali1234: Which is goofy -- because when the phone falls, it ACCELERATES. Sep 06 16:57:51 gabrbedd: yep Sep 06 16:58:02 gabrbedd: what's happening is that the accelerometer measures acceleration in a non-inertial frame of reference Sep 06 16:58:18 in the frame of reference of an object in free-fall (accelerating in local gravity) Sep 06 16:58:50 yes, the proper acceleration is 0, not the acceleration Sep 06 16:59:05 you can't measure gravity, only it's effect Sep 06 16:59:09 that's why it measures a fictitious force: an object at rest sees one unbalanced force Sep 06 16:59:25 that's why a gravimeter has to be in an extremely controlled environment (like a satellite in space) Sep 06 16:59:39 um... what's the difference between "proper acceleration" and "acceleration" Sep 06 16:59:45 there has to be no other acceleration on it for it to work Sep 06 17:00:19 gabrbedd: from what I can tell, your acceleration relative to your frame of reference Sep 06 17:00:29 gabrbedd: proper acceleration is is the acceleration relative to an object in free-fall in local gravity Sep 06 17:01:00 which is a non-inertial frame of reference Sep 06 17:01:30 Holy Crap!! Sep 06 17:01:35 I've been Nerd Sniped!! Sep 06 17:01:49 http://xkcd.com/356/ Sep 06 17:02:34 I still disagree... but I gotta go. :-) Sep 06 17:02:39 lol Sep 06 17:02:39 Y'all have a great day! Sep 06 17:03:05 proper acceleration is basically defined as "what an accelerometer measures" :) Sep 06 17:03:12 yep Sep 06 17:04:09 thanks gabrbedd that reminds me that I should read today's comics Sep 06 17:04:30 CosmoHill: Any time! Sep 06 17:08:47 anyone on Sep 06 17:09:29 try to build custom image for a device and getting an error - using Fedora 12, any know this process? Sep 06 17:09:51 possomfat, Ive been getting errors too Sep 06 17:09:58 possomfat, what error? Sep 06 17:10:22 THis is what I type and the error I'm getting - sudo mic-image-creator --run-mode=0 --cache=mycachedir --format=raw --arch=armv7l --save-kernel --config=meego-codedrop-arm-n900-2010033116.ks Error: failed to create image : URLGrabber error: [Errno 14] HTTP Error 404 : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/trunk/repo/arm/os/repodata/repomd.xml : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/trunk/repo/arm/os/repodata/repomd.xml Sep 06 17:10:48 ah possomfat you need to install urlgrabber Sep 06 17:11:02 where is it Sep 06 17:11:11 oh wait nvm Sep 06 17:11:16 looks like you have it Sep 06 17:11:24 did you double check the urls Sep 06 17:11:57 those urls are giving me not found Sep 06 17:12:06 I just cut and pasted them from the site. The mic-image-creator did the rest, how would I check them? Sep 06 17:12:30 open it in a web browser Sep 06 17:12:33 the links Sep 06 17:13:38 Do you think these are part of the .ks file I'm using or that the site has an error? Sep 06 17:14:47 dotblank: any ideas? Sep 06 17:19:33 possomfat, the .ks files Sep 06 17:39:55 * thiago finishes reading lots of articles on Wikipedia and regains his respect for physics Sep 06 17:42:15 is there a recently updated image of the meego handset distribution? or just the preview? Sep 06 17:42:25 hhartz: repo.meego.com Sep 06 17:42:37 thiago: thanks :) Sep 06 17:42:46 http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.0.80/1.0.90.1.20100903.1/handset/images/ Sep 06 17:43:39 thiago: I guess I should pick the ava dev one if I want to try getting Qt Quick Components to build? Sep 06 17:43:41 the latest "release" is 20100831 though Sep 06 17:43:46 what is mtf? Sep 06 17:43:50 http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.90.1.20100903.1/handset/images/ Sep 06 17:43:56 that one is just the daily build Sep 06 17:44:07 the aava one will run on any Core2- or Atom-powered device Sep 06 17:44:15 mtf = meegotouch framework Sep 06 17:44:22 gotcha Sep 06 17:44:39 september 3rd Sep 06 17:44:48 yeah, but that's not a release Sep 06 17:44:51 it's a daily build Sep 06 17:44:58 you may want to try the 0831 one to be sure Sep 06 17:45:03 ok Sep 06 17:45:11 http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.0.80/1.0.90.0.20100831.1/core/images/meego-core-armv7l-madde-sysroot/ Sep 06 17:45:19 wait, that's handset Sep 06 17:45:44 oooh, n900 images too Sep 06 17:45:49 yeah Sep 06 17:45:56 it's handset I want Sep 06 17:46:14 what's the current state on Qt opengl stuff? i want to port my dice simulator to meego now after accelerometer discussion :) Sep 06 17:46:16 but I assume http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.0.80/1.0.90.0.20100831.1/core/images/meego-core-ia32-madde-sysroot/ for desktops right? Sep 06 17:46:45 see here for details: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-September/005387.html Sep 06 17:46:59 it's a sysroot for madde for building to ia32 Sep 06 17:46:59 ali1234: Qt OpenGL works just fine... it's more giving you convenience in setting up the context etc. should be a matter of stuffing your code in the virtual updateGL call Sep 06 17:47:06 it will run on ia32 (Atom, Core2) Sep 06 17:47:11 yeah but... gles Sep 06 17:47:18 ali1234: gles works too Sep 06 17:47:42 someone mentioned some utility functions that go some way to replacing the missing things in gles 2.0... Sep 06 17:47:47 like matrix ops etc Sep 06 17:48:03 probably me Sep 06 17:48:14 the math functions and enablers are in 4.7 already, right hhartz ? Sep 06 17:48:26 the rest of the 3d code is in a separate module Sep 06 17:48:28 thiago: yeah Sep 06 17:48:48 thiago: ali1234: I think there's a post by rhys on labs.qt.nokia.com Sep 06 17:50:12 hhartz: note that n900 images replace Maemo5 (though you can simply chroot into it and run the app from there) Sep 06 17:50:27 i have dual boot :) Sep 06 17:50:33 hehe Sep 06 17:50:34 or dual boot, yeah Sep 06 17:50:39 i ported u-boot for this purpose... Sep 06 17:50:46 * thiago wonders if PR1.3 improves dual-boot support Sep 06 17:50:50 don't even need to reflash Sep 06 17:51:07 i don;t use multiboot Sep 06 17:51:13 I could try that, but I need at least one reliable phone Sep 06 17:51:22 so maemo kernel has no effect on boot speed of other OS Sep 06 17:51:24 can't use devel images on *both* of my phones Sep 06 17:51:58 well this dual boot is invisible to maemo :) Sep 06 17:52:07 but is maemo still running? Sep 06 17:52:09 no Sep 06 17:52:12 sounds like something I need Sep 06 17:52:15 that's the problem Sep 06 17:52:21 I need my phone to work :) Sep 06 17:52:27 yeah i see Sep 06 17:52:38 my other phone is already quite unstable Sep 06 17:52:56 my sony still works Sep 06 17:53:01 love when the touchscreen freezes while I'm in a call, so I have to reboot to hang up Sep 06 17:53:11 sure, there's a k800i size dent in my door frame >.> Sep 06 17:53:47 thiago: sounds like the Greenphone Sep 06 17:54:09 does Qt wrap enough of GL that the same program can run on a desktop machine with opengl or a handset with gles? Sep 06 17:54:10 lpotter: yeah, but it's a device much more powerful than the greenphone :-) Sep 06 17:54:25 ali1234: if you stick to what's common between GLES and GL, yes Sep 06 17:54:32 ali1234: especially GL2 and GLES2 Sep 06 17:54:45 ok cool, that's what i'll do then Sep 06 17:54:53 depends on what you're asking Sep 06 17:55:03 Qt will do a lot of GL operations for you, like all of the QPainter primitives Sep 06 17:55:10 i'm asking if i can develop my app on a PC and then just recompile it for meego Sep 06 17:55:13 those will be desktop GL on desktops, and GLES on embedded Sep 06 17:55:29 if you don't write any GL code, your app will be "cross-GL", yet GL-accelerated Sep 06 17:55:42 well i want to draw 3d objects... Sep 06 17:55:42 if you write GL code, then you have to be careful about what you call Sep 06 17:55:58 i don't care how... as long as they are 3d and it is fast Sep 06 17:56:06 for Qt 4.8, one thing we're planning on doing is offering a set of functions that wrap either, so you don't have to care Sep 06 17:56:17 they are like what you know from GL, not Qt API Sep 06 17:56:32 but if you want to do 3D, do take a look at the Qt3D project Sep 06 17:56:33 well i know both so..... Sep 06 17:56:38 especially qml3d :-) Sep 06 17:56:42 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CcfG5uxSOw Sep 06 17:56:46 i want to port this ^ Sep 06 17:56:57 but i want to write it in Qt so it runs anywhere Qt runs Sep 06 17:57:13 let's see Sep 06 17:57:40 sounds like a job for Qt3D Sep 06 17:57:58 ah i found that post now Sep 06 17:57:59 http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-labs/qt3d Sep 06 17:58:03 http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/11/10/qt3d-features-in-qt-46/ Sep 06 17:58:27 that's just the enablers Sep 06 17:58:53 it says enablers includes shader stuff... that's about 99% of the annoying difficult code Sep 06 17:58:54 http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qt3d-snapshot/index.html this is the library Sep 06 17:59:20 QGLCube ... perfect :) Sep 06 17:59:24 see also this: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/11/18/qt3d-brings-qt-style-coding-to-3d/ Sep 06 17:59:26 yes, this is exactly what i need Sep 06 18:00:02 you should be able to write the dice entirely in QML + qml3d Sep 06 18:00:19 i had planned on adding other-than-cube shaped dice Sep 06 18:00:25 and also change the physical engine to bullet Sep 06 18:00:40 I'll let you play with it Sep 06 18:00:49 if you need some help, lpotter can find you the developers to talk to Sep 06 18:01:00 in a couple of hours. lpotter is an early riser. :-) Sep 06 18:02:00 anyone played with multiboot and meego+maemo? Sep 06 18:02:06 hmm so if i want to use this to make programs that run on ubuntu, i'll need to build a newer Qt version? i currently have 4.6.2 Sep 06 18:02:08 * lpotter blinks Sep 06 18:02:49 Duckboot: i have implemented dual boot using u-boot which avoids the whole multiboot mess Sep 06 18:03:05 Duckboot: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/maemo/u-boot/ Sep 06 18:03:36 ali1234: Well - I want to use 1 boot-program, so I can boot Maemo/Meego/NitDroid Sep 06 18:04:06 Duckboot: no reason it can't boot nitdroid too if the developers supply correct kernel and initrd Sep 06 18:04:08 i think it's safe to say that my VM has crashed Sep 06 18:05:32 ali1234: some enablers are in 4.6 Sep 06 18:05:33 ali1234: Latest multiboot makes use of the same principles - Initrd and kernel. Sep 06 18:05:36 ali1234: see the 4.6 documentation Sep 06 18:05:43 ali1234: but qml3d requires Qt 4.7 Sep 06 18:06:19 ali1234: So - Then I have to research a bit on my own then. Sep 06 18:06:54 Duckboot: i tried nitdroid but their kernel doesn't include a mmc driver - it's a module Sep 06 18:07:07 But first - Shop a class 6 or 10 MicroSD Sep 06 18:07:23 Duckboot: and i couldn't find the initrd with the module... it seems to rely on multiboot to mount rootfs before kexec or someweird stuff like that Sep 06 18:07:49 ali1234: Hmm - Kk - Looking into it now Sep 06 18:07:51 Duckboot: so i tried to recompile kernel with MMC built it... but it failed to boot still Sep 06 18:13:09 ali1234: I think there is some "magic" involved there - "If rootfs is on mmc then load proper modules" Sep 06 18:15:09 yes Sep 06 18:15:23 unfortunately multiboot is complicated Sep 06 18:15:32 i didn't have time to figure it out Sep 06 18:15:54 it just needs a proper initrd or to have the kernel built with the right drivers built in, then it will work Sep 06 18:15:55 ali1234: Mmm - Time is a severly limited resource. Sep 06 18:32:41 where do the connman test scripts get installed? Sep 06 18:32:46 hi Sep 06 18:32:50 lbt ping Sep 06 18:32:56 guys why am i getting this error: /usr/lib/gcc/i586-meego-linux/4.5.0/../../../../include/c++/4.5.0/bits/c++0x_warning.h:31: error: #error This file requires compiler and library support for the upcoming ISO C++ standard, C++0x. This support is currently experimental, and must be enabled with the -std=c++0x or -std=gnu++0x compiler options. Sep 06 18:33:24 im using the meego netbook sdk Sep 06 18:33:33 Stskeeps: ping Sep 06 18:34:06 theplic, what are you compiling? Sep 06 18:34:14 tripzero: what is the "this file was included from" ? Sep 06 18:34:14 vlj, Stskeeps is probably sleeping Sep 06 18:34:24 ok Sep 06 18:34:27 tripzero: a demo project in qt creator Sep 06 18:34:38 I mean theplic Sep 06 18:34:44 theplic: what was the #include that triggered that warning? Sep 06 18:34:46 there is nobody that use obs.maemo at the moment ? Sep 06 18:34:54 vlj, i do Sep 06 18:34:58 ok Sep 06 18:35:00 uhm probably #include ? Sep 06 18:35:07 thats the only thing i added Sep 06 18:35:14 do you know if thee is a Meego : update repository ? Sep 06 18:35:35 and do you know where I can found an updated meego src.rpm for xorg-xserver ? Sep 06 18:35:51 theplic: that looks like a C++0x header Sep 06 18:35:56 i think there is a meego update repo Sep 06 18:36:00 theplic: so you have two choices: enable C++0x, or don't include taht header Sep 06 18:36:08 idk about the src.rpm for xorg-xserver Sep 06 18:36:27 =( Sep 06 18:36:34 theplic, QMAKE_CXXFLAGS += --std=c++0x Sep 06 18:36:34 how do i get rand() functions without that header? is there an alternative? Sep 06 18:36:35 iirc Sep 06 18:36:44 theplic: that's not rand() Sep 06 18:36:48 theplic, qrand()? Sep 06 18:36:52 srand Sep 06 18:36:52 ran you get from Sep 06 18:36:57 or use the Qt random functions Sep 06 18:37:02 random also include cstdlib Sep 06 18:37:38 but cstdlib doesn't include random Sep 06 18:37:41 they are not the same thing Sep 06 18:37:42 can you point me to the qt random function class Sep 06 18:37:55 i meant random.h includes cstdlib.h Sep 06 18:38:03 so i get those functions as well Sep 06 18:38:07 qrand Sep 06 18:38:20 http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/qtglobal.html#qrand Sep 06 18:40:39 thiago_home: thanks. but why is QtGlobal not present in the all classes index? Sep 06 18:40:49 because it's not a class Sep 06 18:41:27 oh ok Sep 06 18:42:05 tis a header Sep 06 18:43:37 thanks you. the demo works :) Sep 06 18:43:40 -s Sep 06 18:44:20 * thiago_home loves how the C++ committee thought it was important to let you choose the random distribution's uniformity and PRNG's algorithm Sep 06 18:44:38 but forgot the simple task of "how do I put such a generator in my class" Sep 06 18:45:23 :S Sep 06 18:45:40 by the way Sep 06 18:45:46 * theplic loves how the qt community came in with the help Sep 06 18:45:48 :D Sep 06 18:45:53 well meego/qt anyway Sep 06 18:45:54 when will all c++1x specs be ..."released" ? Sep 06 18:46:04 s/released/finalised Sep 06 18:46:04 vlj: they are in final draft now Sep 06 18:46:12 done by 2011, released in 2012 Sep 06 18:46:21 we're considering turning it on by default in Qt as of 4.8 Sep 06 18:46:23 yup but they were in final draft last year too :p Sep 06 18:46:28 ok Sep 06 18:46:34 you work for qt ? Sep 06 18:46:42 yep Sep 06 18:46:50 awesome Sep 06 18:47:15 do you think you will "discard" some qt threads function in favor of c++ standard ones ? Sep 06 18:47:35 probably not Sep 06 18:47:46 i mean "i hope to [some diety] not Sep 06 18:47:47 " Sep 06 18:48:04 I do prefer c++ standard because, well, it is standard Sep 06 18:48:24 vlj: discard? no Sep 06 18:48:37 it is easier to complain about a bad compiler :p Sep 06 18:48:38 vlj: but if the std::thread class is useful, we may use it instead of pthread or win32 threads Sep 06 18:48:40 iirc the proposed thread stuff won't be in 0x Sep 06 18:48:45 ok Sep 06 18:48:50 especially win32 threads Sep 06 18:49:13 are those functions inlinable ? Sep 06 18:49:22 the Qt API stays. And for the next couple of years, all C++0x functionality will be inline. Sep 06 18:49:29 ok Sep 06 18:49:33 meaning that you can mix and match C++0x Sep 06 18:49:38 Qt with it, your app without Sep 06 18:49:43 Qt without it, your app with it Sep 06 18:49:43 very gooooood new :) Sep 06 18:50:17 if there's a compelling reason, like std::thread being far more useful than the Win32 stuff, we may start requiring C++0x to compile Qt Sep 06 18:50:24 right now, there is no compelling reason Sep 06 18:50:28 ok Sep 06 18:50:40 and what about container ? Sep 06 18:50:44 but still, even if we do that, we won't force you to use it Sep 06 18:50:48 STL containers aren't compatible Sep 06 18:50:52 :/ Sep 06 18:50:57 Qt containers are there to stay Sep 06 18:51:14 what make them incompatible ? Sep 06 18:51:34 STL containers are designed for real-time and low-memory conditions Sep 06 18:51:43 you know exactly if and when it may throw and how it reacts to that Sep 06 18:51:50 you know exactly when it may allocate memory Sep 06 18:52:00 and they follow STL's API Sep 06 18:52:12 well qt container should require low memory conditions if it is designed to run on embedded hardware Sep 06 18:52:12 Qt containers are designed for simplicity and never-out-of-memory conditions Sep 06 18:52:19 but they are designed for low memory overhead too Sep 06 18:52:23 ok Sep 06 18:52:32 they do implicit sharing, which means that a container may suddenly allocate memory Sep 06 18:52:34 and what about QString ? Sep 06 18:52:38 including QString Sep 06 18:52:41 :/ Sep 06 18:53:08 you can convert from one to the other. But Qt's API will continue to use Qt containers. Sep 06 18:53:13 ok Sep 06 18:53:22 and std::string is not a human string. It's simply a byte array. Sep 06 18:53:27 std::wstring is a human string. Sep 06 18:53:50 but both are incompatible with qt ones Sep 06 18:54:00 (even if you can convert them) Sep 06 18:54:01 QString comes closest to C++0x's std::basic_string Sep 06 18:54:11 the data layout is incompatible, sure Sep 06 18:54:28 which means that Qt cannot share the data with the STL container (which STL doesn't do anyway) Sep 06 18:54:31 * CosmoHill looks at his K800i and then looks at James Bond's Sep 06 18:54:42 why can't sony actually make things like that Sep 06 18:54:46 in the specific case of std::string, unless you're on Windows, you also need to perform an encoding conversion Sep 06 18:55:14 like I said, QString is closest to std::basic_string Sep 06 18:55:48 yup but as a developper, having a standard API and a framework specifig one for the same thing is...disturbing Sep 06 18:56:13 (it's not qt's fault, every framework comes with their own string implementation) Sep 06 18:56:17 vlj: just use QString everywhere then :-) Sep 06 18:56:42 the problem with std::string is that it doesn't specify an encoding Sep 06 18:56:48 that's why it's a byte array, not a string Sep 06 18:57:00 well, I would if my compiler would automaticaly transform "..." into QString("...") Sep 06 18:57:10 C++0x allows that Sep 06 18:57:25 you mean, it allows to overload string type ? Sep 06 18:57:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C++0x#User-defined_literals Sep 06 18:58:07 it works with current gcc version ? Sep 06 18:58:28 http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html Sep 06 18:58:34 Extensible literals No Sep 06 18:59:04 visual studio ? ;) Sep 06 18:59:16 I don't know Sep 06 18:59:39 if you find a page with VS2010's C++0x feature list, let me know :-) Sep 06 19:00:13 we'll probably overload something like "q", so you can write: "..."q Sep 06 19:00:14 any release date for QT 4..7 final ? :p Sep 06 19:00:16 and that's a QString Sep 06 19:00:23 4.7.0 any time now Sep 06 19:00:26 ok Sep 06 19:00:36 and it will work with VS 2010 64 bits ? Sep 06 19:00:45 if you apply Microsoft's hotfix, yes Sep 06 19:01:20 you mean, the one available in windows update, or I must search the ms website to find out ? Sep 06 19:01:30 no clue Sep 06 19:01:42 the one that fixes the horrible bug in release mode Sep 06 19:01:56 I had crashes when running debug with qt 4.7 64bits + qtcreator + msvc 64bits Sep 06 19:02:03 if you don't apply this fix, wherever it is, any C++ apps in release mode will crash randomly Sep 06 19:02:11 maybe a wrong combination Sep 06 19:02:14 ok Sep 06 19:02:37 they used an SSE aligned-move instruction on an unaligned address Sep 06 19:02:55 they = MS or qt ? Sep 06 19:03:17 MS Sep 06 19:03:27 ok Sep 06 19:03:37 this was the first nasty compiler bug we've found on MSVC Sep 06 19:03:48 there are others ? ;) Sep 06 19:03:57 small stuff, usually deviations from the standard Sep 06 19:04:04 older versions were worse. They improve. Sep 06 19:04:15 they don't have choice I think Sep 06 19:04:27 with GCC we find a couple of compiler bugs per year Sep 06 19:04:33 2 or 3 Sep 06 19:04:52 qt performs better with msvc or mingw ? Sep 06 19:05:06 I always think that msvc is better for any windows compilation Sep 06 19:05:12 but...I may be wrong Sep 06 19:05:17 vlj: msvc, definitely Sep 06 19:05:33 msvc is the best compiler for windows, and mostly x86 too Sep 06 19:05:44 gcc is catching up, but it has a long way to go Sep 06 19:05:45 thiago, did you hear that gcc4.5 broke libffi (a gcc thing)? :) Sep 06 19:05:52 even against icc ? Sep 06 19:05:57 icc is good, but I can't prove it's better in real-world applications Sep 06 19:06:11 timeless: no, I haven't Sep 06 19:06:17 but it's not worse ...? Sep 06 19:06:39 well, I haven't done extensive benchmarking Sep 06 19:06:44 ok Sep 06 19:06:52 the one I did try showed icc is about the same as gcc, on Linux Sep 06 19:07:04 unless I turn on link-time optimisation, then it performs better Sep 06 19:07:08 but how can msvc be better than gcc ? Sep 06 19:07:21 but then it's only useful for final applications, not libraries Sep 06 19:07:27 I mean, 64bits enforce sse2 for instance Sep 06 19:07:29 it simply generates better code and better error messages Sep 06 19:07:47 and the heuristic behind gcc and msvc must be close Sep 06 19:07:56 I doubt it Sep 06 19:08:05 compiler optimisation algorithms are a closely-guarded secret Sep 06 19:08:09 probably patented too Sep 06 19:08:46 no wonder that ICC isn't open source, even though Intel contributes to gcc Sep 06 19:09:22 I remember one case where the same code performed much faster when compiled with MSVC than with GCC Sep 06 19:09:29 but you have more researcher behind gcc than behind msvc or icc Sep 06 19:09:32 some RGB manipulation algorithm, can't remember what Sep 06 19:09:56 so the engineer took the disassembly of the code generated by MSVC and rewrote it in C++ to match it Sep 06 19:10:00 then GCC was as fast Sep 06 19:10:06 hmm Sep 06 19:10:12 we don't have much behind ICC Sep 06 19:10:28 until MeeGo was announced, we didn't even have a recent version of ICC in our farm Sep 06 19:11:16 I think we've always had a little more in GCC, in part because of Mac too Sep 06 19:11:16 I think it is not as used as gcc or msvc Sep 06 19:11:39 thiago, interesting approach to compiler optimization Sep 06 19:11:41 but now with Symbian and MeeGo focus, it's definitely more Sep 06 19:12:39 I though qt main platform was gcc (because of kde, things like that) Sep 06 19:12:46 you'd think that Sep 06 19:12:53 but most of the commercial customers are actually on Windows Sep 06 19:13:07 ok Sep 06 19:13:22 there's just a huge imbalance between commercial customers and total users (which includes open source users) Sep 06 19:13:33 you can probably see that as as natural, though Sep 06 19:13:41 yes Sep 06 19:14:03 that situation has definitely changed with Nokia, if you count Nokia as a paying customer Sep 06 19:14:12 on the other hand, any users can turn into a commercial customer at some time Sep 06 19:14:14 (Nokia did pay 100 million euros, after all :-) Sep 06 19:14:56 but I'd say 60% of Nokia isn't MSVC or GCC Sep 06 19:14:59 it's actually RVCT Sep 06 19:15:19 that'd the screwy symbian compiler Sep 06 19:15:26 no... that's winscw Sep 06 19:15:27 even gcce ? Sep 06 19:15:34 but Linaro are paying for GCC improvements now :) Sep 06 19:15:34 which is, really, screwy Sep 06 19:15:40 RVCT is the ARM compiler Sep 06 19:15:50 it's not bad, even though ARM had to make lots of fixes for us Sep 06 19:16:08 gcce is bad only because it's old Sep 06 19:16:29 but Qt for Symbian, as well as most of the Symbian software itself, is built with RVCT Sep 06 19:16:41 but it is moreless sync with gcc release or...? Sep 06 19:16:48 RVCT is like MSVC or ICC, except for ARM Sep 06 19:17:04 rvct is not available for free for hobbyist purpose ;) Sep 06 19:17:17 I think it's available for free-as-in-beer Sep 06 19:17:55 RVCT is pretty good at generating *small* code, though Sep 06 19:18:42 unlike GCC, which sometimes does stupid stuff if you read the assembly output Sep 06 19:19:06 is there no x86_64 sdk ? Sep 06 19:19:20 djszapi: the 32-bit SDK is enough for you Sep 06 19:19:39 k then Sep 06 19:20:04 thiago_home: gcc asm output is not the most readable one Sep 06 19:20:14 vlj: most asm output isn't readable Sep 06 19:20:29 but when you find something like these two instructions, one after the other: Sep 06 19:20:35 movne r0, r1 Sep 06 19:20:40 moveq r0, r1 Sep 06 19:21:00 well it's stupid Sep 06 19:21:17 if you can't read ARM assembly: the first executes if the result of the previous comparison was "not equal" Sep 06 19:21:21 the second executes if it was equal Sep 06 19:22:05 arm assembly is told to be clearer than x86 one but it looks very close Sep 06 19:22:19 some things are clearer, some aren't Sep 06 19:22:31 I don't think some of the operands are particularly descriptive Sep 06 19:22:39 like rsb Sep 06 19:23:28 dont know this one Sep 06 19:23:31 reverse sub Sep 06 19:23:47 that's not better ^^ Sep 06 19:23:50 rsb r0, r1, r2 => r0 = r2 - r1 Sep 06 19:23:52 -1/something ? Sep 06 19:23:55 instead of r1 - r2 Sep 06 19:24:13 why having 2 instructions if just the order change ? Sep 06 19:24:19 Need a little guidence - I'm building my first image for the handset on Fedora. I've got it to almost work but I'm error out on the build. Bad Directories. Does anyone know a good .ks file I should use to get a good current build? Sep 06 19:24:20 because of the operand2 encoding Sep 06 19:24:42 you can write: rsb r0, r1, r2 lsl 2 Sep 06 19:24:46 but you can't put the shift on r1 Sep 06 19:24:57 lsl ? Sep 06 19:25:09 left shift 2? Sep 06 19:25:10 logical shift left Sep 06 19:25:12 ok Sep 06 19:25:30 and it does not work if you put it on r1? Sep 06 19:25:31 Here is the error I'm getting - Error: failed to create image : URLGrabber error: [Errno 14] HTTP Error 404 : http://repository.maemo.org/meego/2a5e7de0123d9723051f4f6396a9d4c0/builds/trunk/1.0.80.16.20100824.1/nokia-n900-non-oss/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml : http://repository.maemo.org/meego/2a5e7de0123d9723051f4f6396a9d4c0/builds/trunk/1.0.80.16.20100824.1/nokia-n900-non-oss/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml Sep 06 19:25:41 e.g.: rsb r0, r1, r2 asr 2 => r0 = r2/2 - r1 Sep 06 19:26:00 vlj: you can't put the shifts in the middle operand Sep 06 19:26:04 ok Sep 06 19:26:08 only on the third, the "operand2" Sep 06 19:26:13 neither on the first one I think ? Sep 06 19:26:13 ok Sep 06 19:26:23 the first one is the destination operand Sep 06 19:27:11 like I said, I don't find some of the opcodes particularly readable Sep 06 19:27:11 Anyone know a good .ks? Sep 06 19:27:16 there are worse than rsb Sep 06 19:27:20 well this could mean "do logical shift right after the sub" Sep 06 19:28:19 it would be nice if there was some "nice" arm syntax to convert straight into arm one Sep 06 19:28:28 but Intel has of course surpassed it all with the SSE4.2 instruction pcmpestrm Sep 06 19:28:45 it takes 4 registers and one immediate bitfield as input Sep 06 19:29:03 and it outputs into 4 flags and one (fixed) register Sep 06 19:29:10 for instance r0 moveq r1 Sep 06 19:29:26 vlj: the IA-64 assembly makes use of equal signs Sep 06 19:29:33 pretty readable for me: mov r1 = r0 Sep 06 19:29:41 Can anyone point me to a good kickstart file so that I can build a N900 handset image. Thanks Sep 06 19:29:52 ld4 r1 = [r2] Sep 06 19:30:01 but the processor that runs it are not the most widespread Sep 06 19:30:05 l4d 2 Sep 06 19:30:09 st4 [r2] = r1 Sep 06 19:30:43 and then there are some gems like: br.call.sptk.few rp = #function Sep 06 19:31:31 "branch-call (that is, save the return link), statically predicted to be taken, and load few lines of cache" Sep 06 19:31:54 sad that it didnt make its way into emt 64 Sep 06 19:33:01 or a static IA 64 to emt 64 convertor Sep 06 19:34:15 also the now-useless br.ia instruction, to switch the processor into IA-32 mode Sep 06 19:35:45 possomfat, http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php Sep 06 19:36:01 http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Releases/Daily#Where_to_get_kickstart_-_how_to_build_an_image Sep 06 19:36:15 thanks Sep 06 19:41:39 I would like to be sure: is the MeeGo development closed by Nokia ? Sep 06 19:42:07 MY colleague said me today to install debian since it's closed development and Nokia provides only deb packages. Sep 06 19:42:13 Maemo 6/Harmattan Sep 06 19:43:48 * MeeGo = Harmattan/Maemo_6 Sep 06 19:44:38 err, not really Sep 06 19:44:39 #jSomeone on a less laggy connection than I can correct that. Sep 06 19:44:58 S/#j/djszapi: / Sep 06 19:45:10 1. meego uses rpm not deb Sep 06 19:45:15 true Sep 06 19:45:20 harmattan isn't really meego, it's more ... well, maemo 6 Sep 06 19:45:21 Maemo6/Harmattan uses deb... Sep 06 19:45:32 tripzero: Did what you said, got the latest kickstart from codedrop link - Still getting build error - Error: failed to create image : URLGrabber error: [Errno 14] HTTP Error 404 : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.90.1.20100831.1/core/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.90.1.20100831.1/core/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml Sep 06 19:45:47 tripzero: Any insights? Sep 06 19:45:54 I always thought maemo 6 is meego Sep 06 19:46:05 2. maemo is pretty far from debian now anyway Sep 06 19:46:07 i actually dunno how much of harmattan arch is public knowledge so better not elaborate but it's not meego, that's for sure. Sep 06 19:46:40 ali1234: Harmattan is not... Sep 06 19:47:02 Why am getting all these URLgrabber errors, do I have something configured wrong?? Sep 06 19:47:05 3. why would installing debian help you with "closed" development? Sep 06 19:47:29 ali1234: /me sighs Sep 06 19:47:43 since the source is not available Sep 06 19:47:52 and they only provide deb binaries ?! Sep 06 19:48:02 deb is a package format Sep 06 19:48:11 you are rather clever :) Sep 06 19:48:28 if you take a random deb from ubuntu and install it on debian... guess what... it doesn't work Sep 06 19:48:37 because ubuntu is not debian, despite that they both use debs Sep 06 19:48:59 the Nokia official recommendation is ubuntu, debian, but if you know that better ... Sep 06 19:49:18 the official nokia recommendation of what? Sep 06 19:49:46 which host to use... Sep 06 19:49:50 * djszapi sighs heavily Sep 06 19:49:56 djszapi: to develop for Maemo 6 you would need maemo 6 rootstrap for scratchbox which is not publicly available Sep 06 19:50:07 well, there's a quasi-recommedation in the form of "this is the most thoroughly tested distro" and it's jaunty Sep 06 19:50:19 as far as the sdk stuff is concerned Sep 06 19:50:27 they recommend ubuntu because that's what they tested with, not because it uses deb Sep 06 19:50:29 matrixx: we started working for Nokia Sep 06 19:50:39 djszapi: ok, then it's not a problem :) Sep 06 19:50:39 so our staffs can access to Nokia server ;) Sep 06 19:50:40 the package system used by the host OS is completely and utterly irrelevant Sep 06 19:50:40 although lenny is also very well tested Sep 06 19:50:44 but the question is different Sep 06 19:51:14 it's known that karmic and lucid have probs with the eclipse bits (esbox, pluthon) and possibly scratchbox as well Sep 06 19:51:21 ali1234: no it is not Sep 06 19:51:25 I would suggest ubuntu jaunty Sep 06 19:51:32 just the opposite. Sep 06 19:51:39 mord++ Sep 06 19:51:47 I started setting up lenny in chroot. Sep 06 19:52:26 one thing that I do not understand matrixx Sep 06 19:52:26 djszapi: better and more specific help you would receive on #maemo @ projects.maemo.org server Sep 06 19:52:38 well, believe what you like. the only important thing is what packages the host has installed. it doesn't matter if they came out of a deb or a rpm, they work just the same Sep 06 19:52:39 i'm somewhat involved with the developer platform bits atm (switching to other things soon though) and i'd say go jaunty if you want stuff to just work (tm) Sep 06 19:52:40 is it better to install debian lenny in chroot, or just the scratchbox itself ? Sep 06 19:53:20 you'll run into all sorts of probs with karmic as the sb host at least Sep 06 19:53:26 mord: what's the problem with lenny ? Sep 06 19:53:37 no major probs with lenny afaik Sep 06 19:53:42 matrixx: my colleague has got access, not me yet :P Sep 06 19:53:48 I am newbie in that project. Sep 06 19:53:59 mord: I started setting up lenny Sep 06 19:54:00 djszapi: ok then :) Sep 06 19:54:11 djszapi: you should be fine then Sep 06 19:54:33 mord matrixx I just do not which way is worth to do: 1) Installing lenny in subdirectory on my archlinux / Sep 06 19:54:37 ? Sep 06 19:54:44 or just simply install scratchbox on my archlinux ? Sep 06 19:54:59 since maemo 5 sdk installs some debian handling into the scratchbox. Sep 06 19:55:33 my colleague wanted me to install debian for my host, but I have been using archlinux for a while, thus I would like to keep it. Sep 06 19:55:40 at least as a host Sep 06 19:55:56 djszapi: scratchbox is like a super-chroot with emulation capabilities Sep 06 19:56:07 yes. Sep 06 19:56:20 as long as your host OS is capable of running scratchbox well enough, it does not matter about anythign else Sep 06 19:56:23 my next question will be whether xephyr can support 3d accel. Sep 06 19:56:39 ali1234: it is not true... Sep 06 19:57:00 we do not use the the downloadable scratchbox at the company. Sep 06 19:57:04 that we use a bit different. Sep 06 19:57:20 djszapi: sometimes things get a bit weird if the host has very recent stuff, so i'd say an up-to-date arch is possibly the worst possible host :) Sep 06 19:57:27 and projects.maemo.org and other Nokia accesses provide debian binary packages. Sep 06 19:57:50 mord: there is no obligation to update every day ... Sep 06 19:57:51 uhm, why are people discussing pmo in public? Sep 06 19:58:04 djszapi: I dunno know that much of arch linux that I could tell Sep 06 19:58:22 djszapi: well, running pacman -Syu every day is half the point of having arch, innit though? :) Sep 06 19:58:29 nop ... Sep 06 19:58:30 but at least the modified scratchox packages need a debian host Sep 06 19:58:39 mord: that is why you got troubles. Sep 06 19:58:54 matrixx: that's what I said. Sep 06 19:58:58 yep Sep 06 19:59:06 but not host... Sep 06 19:59:15 bootstrap + debian install into a subdirectory. Sep 06 19:59:19 Stskeeps: no idea. what's the policy on that btw? Sep 06 19:59:24 but i do not know whether it is needed at all Sep 06 19:59:39 or just simply scratchbox installation on the archlinux host Sep 06 19:59:49 * mord honestly has no idea and thus refrains from discussing it at all Sep 06 19:59:56 if you want to use debs provided for a specific host then you should use that host Sep 06 20:00:12 any related to the matter ? Sep 06 20:00:25 the public maemo SDKs provide binary debs that run *inside scratchbox* Sep 06 20:00:42 so it is not necessary to use a specific host OS for the public SDK Sep 06 20:00:48 i do not know anything about anything else Sep 06 20:00:52 OK, using the current N900 kickstart file the following repository directories do not exists - Why anyone ? Error: failed to create image : URLGrabber error: [Errno 14] HTTP Error 404 : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.90.1.20100831.1/core/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.90.1.20100831.1/core/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml Sep 06 20:01:19 Are these repository files broken often?? Sep 06 20:01:36 possomfat: we have a bug where closed repo's didn't get built, and there was also a build id messup on the public repos.. Sep 06 20:01:41 they got changed to 90.0 later Sep 06 20:02:12 So what is the last build for the N900 that builds? Sep 06 20:02:40 does xephyr support 3d accelt ? Sep 06 20:02:45 3 weeks ago, next one will come wednesday provided sanity is OK Sep 06 20:03:01 do you know the kickstart file name? Sep 06 20:04:40 This one meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.15.20100817.1.ks Sep 06 20:04:59 hrmm.. -may- work, either that one or the one before Sep 06 20:05:12 K, thanks Sep 06 20:05:16 we had a messup, basically - sorry about that Sep 06 20:05:54 no worries, just trying to get my first image built so I know what's going on Sep 06 20:22:55 hahahah Sep 06 20:23:11 my netboot loader is working properly :D Sep 06 20:29:50 why did so many people propose talks for the conference... Sep 06 20:29:58 now I have to read each and every one of them... Sep 06 20:31:22 Better than too few. Sep 06 20:33:37 indeed Sep 06 20:43:58 I've just booted ubuntu off the local hard drive using an PXE boot loader :) Sep 06 20:52:01 thiago_home: reminds me of the line from Clerks, "This job would be great if it wasn't for the fucking customers!" Sep 06 20:54:13 any american's in here? Sep 06 20:54:39 is "damn" a strong swear word? (if it is I applogise) Sep 06 21:03:30 CosmoHill, not really, no. Sep 06 21:03:47 CosmoHill, depends on the company, of course, but it's pretty tame. Sep 06 21:05:39 thanks Sep 06 21:05:50 I'll tell my friend he's being prudish Sep 06 21:09:19 CosmoHill, but regional differences factor into that one fairly heavily. Sep 06 21:09:40 Always remember: the US is a very large and varied place. Sep 06 21:10:06 travelled much have you ? Sep 06 21:10:59 I think you have states bigger than our country Sep 06 21:16:59 CosmoHill: Texas is large enough that if you flipped it upside down...the tip would almost reach the middle part of Canada. Sep 06 21:17:52 as if it wasn't backwared enough as it is Sep 06 21:17:56 probably the best think you could do to Texas... Sep 06 21:20:08 * CosmoHill wonders who we've offended Sep 06 21:20:35 TSCHAKeee2: you mean flip it at the north border? Sep 06 21:20:44 TSCHAKeee2: not flip it at the mid-section? Sep 06 21:20:50 yeah Sep 06 21:20:59 not rotate then? Sep 06 21:21:00 just like folding it in Sep 06 21:21:05 hmm Sep 06 21:21:07 wow Sep 06 21:21:10 it's huge Sep 06 21:21:18 Texas is nuts yes... Sep 06 21:21:22 I was born there Sep 06 21:21:24 I don't admit that much Sep 06 21:21:29 I haven't lived there in over a decade Sep 06 21:21:32 but I can tell you... Sep 06 21:21:42 Texas has the highest concentration of women who are 10s in the world. Sep 06 21:21:47 jeebus. Sep 06 21:21:56 California is close second. Sep 06 21:21:58 tens? Sep 06 21:22:02 hot? Sep 06 21:22:09 hot++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sep 06 21:22:14 * thiago_home read as "teens" but it doesn't make sense either Sep 06 21:22:27 hotness scale from 1 to 10 Sep 06 21:22:38 my friend rated me 7.5 :( Sep 06 21:23:24 * CosmoHill is a guy incase you're wondering Sep 06 21:23:47 oh no worries Sep 06 21:23:51 I like guys too Sep 06 21:23:53 ;) Sep 06 21:23:57 ^.^ Sep 06 21:23:59 heheheh Sep 06 21:24:17 yes, I am bi.. in other words... I confuse the shit out of EVERYONE Sep 06 21:24:22 :P Sep 06 21:24:24 one day I'll talk on here without the logbots being in the back of my head Sep 06 21:24:31 and yourself I bet Sep 06 21:24:37 no, not really Sep 06 21:24:42 I am quite secure with what i am. Sep 06 21:25:03 it just severely limits the dating scene a LOT Sep 06 21:25:12 you would think it would double things Sep 06 21:25:17 it doesn't. Sep 06 21:25:39 because you send out both sets of vibes Sep 06 21:26:04 "damn she's hot, her boyfriend ain't half bad either" Sep 06 21:26:05 most women think i'm gay Sep 06 21:26:14 most gay men think i'm not Sep 06 21:27:02 what time is it for you btw? Sep 06 21:27:23 bed I think... been a long day Sep 06 21:27:49 17:24 EST Sep 06 21:27:55 hmm Sep 06 21:28:03 so it's not weird o'clock Sep 06 21:28:16 the time of day where you stop giving a shit about what you say and who;s listening Sep 06 21:28:44 * CosmoHill goes back to writing up grub stuff quickly Sep 06 21:45:14 okay so I have a dual boot computer, windows and ubuntu Sep 06 21:45:44 windows partition is active so it can't boot ubuntu Sep 06 21:46:14 I can PXE boot Grub2 on that computer and it gives me the option of windows, ubuntu or memtest :) Sep 06 21:46:31 now I just need to figure out how to change which one is booted so it's headless Sep 06 21:52:25 TSCHAKeee2: fancy a laugh Sep 06 21:52:32 always Sep 06 21:52:47 just noticed that my pencel has a name on it Sep 06 21:52:52 that name is "katie" Sep 06 21:53:24 * CosmoHill hides Sep 06 21:53:30 * sofar giggles Sep 06 21:53:40 test? Sep 06 21:53:56 messing with you, sorry Sep 06 22:02:20 I swear I have 3 different spellings of Ubuntu on this page Sep 06 22:02:28 it's two sentances >.< Sep 06 22:02:39 sofar: recently promoted? Sep 06 22:02:54 yeah, after the incident this week Sep 06 22:03:14 ? Sep 06 22:03:21 since I'm one of the few Intel devs always on, and have the irc op experience, I figured I'd volunteer Sep 06 22:03:49 there was just someone spamming nonsense in french and linking to other irc servers Sep 06 22:03:56 ah Sep 06 22:04:23 I'll vollentee if you need more people Sep 06 22:04:29 I'm already an op for #xfce and a few other channels, so no biggie Sep 06 22:05:15 i seem to slowly take over the places I go online :/ Sep 06 22:06:04 I've had a busy night on the KPC forums, banned 3 people within about an hour Sep 06 22:06:43 Hey, is the telephone stack already implemented in meego for the n900? Sep 06 22:06:50 no Sep 06 22:07:31 ok, maybe it will be until october Sep 06 22:11:20 it's taken me an hour to get this far with grub Sep 06 22:11:24 that's how focused I am Sep 06 22:11:29 o_O Sep 06 22:11:32 lol Sep 06 22:11:35 grub Sep 06 22:11:42 grub2 Sep 06 22:11:44 setup (hd0,0) Sep 06 22:11:48 oh grub2 Sep 06 22:11:52 is fail ;) Sep 06 22:11:59 sofar: I'm writing up what I've done Sep 06 22:12:12 I write down anything I do with my cluster Sep 06 22:16:09 done :) Sep 06 22:17:57 two pages on configuring grub.cfg for PXE Sep 06 22:32:47 I've been told (indirectly) that I have until friday to move my desk Sep 06 22:34:02 where do I move my desk to? buggered if I know Sep 06 22:35:30 I've got a spot in the corner of my living room if you want Sep 06 22:35:34 how big is the desk? Sep 06 22:36:33 does it have room for 22 computers? Sep 06 22:37:03 http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/cc/desk2.jpg Sep 06 22:38:03 CosmoHill: sweet! Sep 06 22:38:14 ego++ Sep 06 22:38:31 i barely manage 2 PCs + server Sep 06 22:38:37 to keep everything synced Sep 06 22:38:40 Might have room in my house... but, um... it's a long commute. Sep 06 22:39:08 noticed the computers in the background? :) Sep 06 22:40:46 Yeah, looks like a university lab. Sep 06 22:41:00 correct Sep 06 22:42:06 still, how people manage to work on more than 2 computers Sep 06 22:42:19 i need everything in one place Sep 06 22:42:31 jacekowski: laptop is for personal stuff / interweb Sep 06 22:42:44 ssh rulez! Sep 06 22:42:47 because copying stuff is just pita Sep 06 22:42:54 L2R: node, windows, linux Sep 06 22:43:21 well, i do pretty much same stuff for fun and for work Sep 06 22:43:33 so i've got same software on my work laptop and home laptop Sep 06 22:44:00 + sometimes i do home stuff at work and work stuff at home Sep 06 22:44:21 I have a windows laptop for work and stuff Sep 06 22:44:43 mac for everything else Sep 06 22:44:46 + work Sep 06 22:44:50 and by work, i mean uni stuff Sep 06 22:45:23 CosmoHill, actually, I'll just clear out the living room. Bring your stuff and get setup :) Sep 06 22:45:34 you'll share though, right? :D Sep 06 22:45:39 I had a desk in the back of my car today Sep 06 22:45:43 and out the back too Sep 06 22:45:51 scratched my paint :( Sep 06 22:46:23 ahaha...I'd be more worried about scratching my desk with my car than scratching my car with my desk :) Sep 06 22:46:43 next time I need to put a jumper under there Sep 06 22:46:56 ah, and how to handle more than two computers at once? central file server + firefox sync + synergy Sep 06 22:47:21 * johnx lives in a web browser and a terminal Sep 06 22:47:36 the computers are pretty blank Sep 06 22:48:16 I mean they have little personal files and stuff on there Sep 06 22:48:24 lots of configuration cluster stuff Sep 06 22:49:04 http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/cc/computer-corner.jpg Sep 06 22:49:13 you can see the old cluster in the corner Sep 06 22:50:16 white boxes Sep 06 22:50:21 yes Sep 06 22:50:26 that just screams "90s" Sep 06 22:50:27 not the ones on the floor Sep 06 22:50:29 looks like a computer graveyard Sep 06 22:50:34 yes Sep 06 22:50:48 * johnx looks a bit newer than the case I'm going to use for my next build ... Sep 06 22:50:54 thanks to our awesome planning, the two people that turned up to the open day saw that Sep 06 22:51:52 that cluster is P4 1.4Ghz, 512MB and that monitor is damn heavy Sep 06 22:52:21 brought the monitor over to the cluster and thought "gosh you're taller than you look" Sep 06 22:53:10 * johnx used to have an 21" HP UNIX workstation monitor from '89 Sep 06 22:53:33 * johnx doesn't miss CRTs even a little bit Sep 06 22:53:37 I'm 21 from 1989 Sep 06 22:53:43 does that count? Sep 06 22:54:00 I bet you weigh more than the monitor did, but probably only by a little Sep 06 22:54:10 probably Sep 06 22:54:12 how much? Sep 06 22:54:30 somewhere between 100 and 120lbs Sep 06 22:54:34 eep Sep 06 22:54:44 That cluster probably only has a fraction of the power of my current pc :/ Sep 06 22:54:58 It's easy to forget moores law is still in effect Sep 06 22:55:03 jonnx I'm 132 lbs Sep 06 22:55:13 120lbs monitor Sep 06 22:55:14 wat Sep 06 22:55:24 ScottishDuck: hold on, I have the power of that cluster written down Sep 06 22:55:33 anyone, trying to run test QT app on n900 device, cant figure out what hostname is for device? Does anyone know how to figure this out? Sep 06 22:56:17 possomfat, run 'hostname' on the device? Sep 06 22:56:26 k Sep 06 22:57:14 how, can't get a terminal, no prompt when i go into xterm on the device? Sep 06 22:57:52 my cluster will be an estimated 1.5Kw Sep 06 22:58:52 ScottishDuck, let me look up the specs on the monitor. I'm pretty sure it was above 100lbs, but 120lbs would be the high end of that scale Sep 06 22:59:28 how do i ssh into it? I'm new to this:) what is the IP of the device connected to the USB? Sep 06 23:00:24 If you folks are ~130lbs weight you must be pretty short :/ Sep 06 23:02:07 I'm 240lbs and need help:) Maybe this will get me some luv :) Sep 06 23:02:39 I'm 200lbs but average weight Sep 06 23:02:44 * CosmoHill is about 6ft Sep 06 23:02:49 (6' 4") Sep 06 23:02:57 possomfat, what is the IP of the computer's usb interface right now (ifconfig or ipconfig on windows) Sep 06 23:03:28 CosmoHill: that would make you underweight :/ Sep 06 23:03:30 CosmoHill, you're 6" and 132 *lbs* O_o; Sep 06 23:03:34 [mark@dell-e1505 my-N900-Image]$ ifconfig eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:15:C5:C9:CF:51 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:0 (0.0 b) Interrupt:17 lo Link encap:Local Loopback Sep 06 23:04:26 possomfat, errr, I don't think the usb iface is called eth0 Sep 06 23:04:32 I think it's like usb0 or somethijg Sep 06 23:05:01 usb0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 0E:7B:3F:52:20:B0 inet6 addr: fe80::c7b:3fff:fe52:20b0/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1494 Metric:1 RX packets:24 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:10 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:3344 (3.2 KiB) TX bytes:1896 (1.8 KiB) Sep 06 23:05:27 sorry I don't see the IP address for the usb device Sep 06 23:05:31 nonsense! Sep 06 23:06:04 what am i missing? Sep 06 23:07:13 johnx, is there someother device mounted on top of the usb device or something? Sep 06 23:08:11 uhm, what HOWTO are you following? Sep 06 23:08:51 pretty much if the N900 is connected in mass storage mode, it can't do networking Sep 06 23:08:59 can't do USB networking that is Sep 06 23:09:16 was trying this one- http://wiki.meego.com/Hello_World_-_MeeGo_x86_development_on_Linux Sep 06 23:10:31 I've built a meego image and put in on the N900, it is running. Now I'm just trying to put a test QT app on the device? Sep 06 23:11:41 johnx, any advice Sep 06 23:11:53 ah, right, but what guide did you follow to connect to your N900 over usb? Sep 06 23:13:01 johnx, this one - http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC Sep 06 23:13:24 The rootfs piece loads to the device via usb Sep 06 23:14:46 yes...but *after* that, once you're booted into meego, you need to setup usb networking Sep 06 23:14:49 johnx, do you know if the wifi works on the cuurent build? maybe i could try that? thoughts? Sep 06 23:15:07 * CosmoHill bans 4th person today Sep 06 23:15:22 dunno much about meego on the N900, I'm running maemo on the N900 and getting meego onto something else Sep 06 23:15:38 I didn't start usb networking, is their a howto on that? Sep 06 23:16:37 well, I don't know of one. I thought you must have followed one ... Sep 06 23:16:46 it should automatically start up usbnetworking. but http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5031 Sep 06 23:21:50 any ideas on the wifi method, how can i tell what ip address was assigned to the meego-n900 without xterm or much else working? Sep 06 23:22:33 It does say that i'm connected to my wifi network on the n900 Sep 06 23:24:29 plz don't make me sniff my wifi network, this cant be that hard:) Sep 06 23:24:50 if it smells like burnt plastic, you need a new router Sep 06 23:25:59 :)) Sep 06 23:26:16 You never forget the unmistakable smell of burning slilicon Sep 06 23:26:26 it strikes fear into the heart of all tech enthusiasts Sep 06 23:27:08 * gabrbedd remembers the smell of his speak-n-spell... Sep 06 23:28:50 my god, i just looked and under the connectivity->wifi-> there is a magicall advanced button that actually has network details! who would have guessed:0 Sep 06 23:29:10 meego is leading the curve Sep 06 23:29:24 hehe Sep 06 23:31:08 now they're talking about physics in #lfs-support >.< Sep 06 23:36:20 What is the average air speed velocity of an unladen N900? Sep 06 23:36:34 jailbroken or not? Sep 06 23:36:37 gabrbedd, there's an app for that :D Sep 06 23:36:43 gabrbedd: I don't know, but n900fly can tell you ;) Sep 06 23:36:58 I... I don't know... AAaaaaaaaa.... Sep 06 23:40:22 gabrbedd: african or eurpean? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Sep 07 02:59:57 2010