**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Sep 18 02:59:57 2010 Sep 18 04:22:47 morning Sep 18 09:16:44 once more unto the breach... Sep 18 09:17:14 mm? Sep 18 09:17:42 Mark sent a new email Sep 18 09:17:51 I feel we're getting much closer Sep 18 09:17:59 i think the mailing lists are FUBAR atm Sep 18 09:18:35 yes... I heard something Sep 18 09:18:46 bad time for it Sep 18 09:19:26 or good, depending on perspective ;) Sep 18 09:20:28 I nearly said that Sep 18 09:21:37 lbt: could you link me to the maemo request queue again? can't seem to find it Sep 18 09:22:04 dawn wants to know some details about it Sep 18 09:22:18 which Mark? Sep 18 09:22:39 http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Developer_Device_Queue Sep 18 09:22:46 thiago_home: Skarpness Sep 18 09:22:49 thank you, sir Sep 18 09:25:41 sjokkis: you're zeigeist right? Sep 18 09:25:43 If your talking about the spec thread on the mailing list - seems like an issue with its resolution potentially needing to be made by the technical steering committee Sep 18 09:25:47 +t Sep 18 09:26:40 lbt: yeah Sep 18 09:27:10 TermanaDesire: i think both sides have problems in their arguments by now Sep 18 09:27:20 hopefully it'll end up in a good solution that works Sep 18 09:27:34 TermanaDesire: I may have "inadvertantly" raised/flagged it in a big way at the last TSG point 5b : http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-09-15-19.01.html Sep 18 09:29:51 Hopefully it can be resolved without the tsg, nut we'll see what happens I guess. It would be better if a solution that suits everybody could be made. Sep 18 09:29:57 But* Sep 18 09:30:27 I'm a bit miffed that I've raised a concrete wording proposal that's been totally ignored Sep 18 09:31:23 well, i don't think so much it's the wording but principles behind Sep 18 09:31:33 * permit the open-source development model to work for compliant applications Sep 18 09:31:42 what's wrong with that? Sep 18 09:31:52 I *DID NOT* say Sep 18 09:31:53 "permit open-source compliant applications" Sep 18 09:32:01 a random guy in china isn't going to understand what you mean exactly Sep 18 09:32:09 arjan's phrasing of what the meaning was, was better Sep 18 09:32:40 let me dig.... or quote? Sep 18 09:33:57 It's about a componentized application with cross app shared components. Sep 18 09:34:04 Out of interest, who is the assigned responsible person for this? Isn't it Ibrahim (spelling?) from LF? Sep 18 09:34:18 I haven't seen him post once :p Sep 18 09:34:35 Stskeeps: you mean "It's about forbidding a componentized application with cross app shared components" Sep 18 09:35:07 well, no, it was about using the term open-source development model :P Sep 18 09:35:16 well bullcrap Sep 18 09:35:22 i mean, CORBA>.. Sep 18 09:35:23 :P Sep 18 09:35:23 that is the oss model Sep 18 09:35:34 well, no Sep 18 09:35:41 it just acts in same way Sep 18 09:35:44 Open source apps *tend* to have external dependencies. Sep 18 09:35:45 Closed source apps *tend* not to. Sep 18 09:35:50 i beg to differ Sep 18 09:35:59 take a look at activex and dll-hell on windows Sep 18 09:36:23 vs Debian ? Sep 18 09:36:26 do i need to remind you of VB runtime? :) Sep 18 09:36:36 errr.... and this would be my point... Sep 18 09:36:43 the model proposed is MS like Sep 18 09:36:52 each app ships a set of dlls Sep 18 09:37:00 same ones in multile apps Sep 18 09:37:06 well, no Sep 18 09:37:09 .NET Framework, for instance Sep 18 09:37:19 installable, people download it externally Sep 18 09:37:29 I'm way out of my knowledge zone I'm afraid Sep 18 09:37:40 i've tried to download ATI drivers at some point Sep 18 09:37:45 and was asked to pull down .NET Framework first Sep 18 09:37:48 ~300mb download Sep 18 09:37:51 .net framework is also shipped with some apps :p but anyway... Sep 18 09:37:52 :) Sep 18 09:39:00 so I'm not seeing the mapping clearly enough to jump to your meaning Sep 18 09:39:12 that closed source apps has just as many insane dependancies as open Sep 18 09:39:12 :P Sep 18 09:39:30 it's code reuse Sep 18 09:39:45 so the ati drivers should be 302 Mb download Sep 18 09:39:57 which is the core of oss, the 90's of product development, etc.. Sep 18 09:39:57 :P Sep 18 09:40:02 and the .Net desktop widget too Sep 18 09:40:20 is this Intel's play to sell flash chips? Sep 18 09:40:33 (joke) Sep 18 09:40:41 ok, so, let's reiterate Sep 18 09:40:59 we'd like to make a promise that when a application is deemed meego compliant, it will install on all meego devices Sep 18 09:41:05 I was wondering why there is no dbus notification from packagekit if there are updates available. Sep 18 09:41:05 no Sep 18 09:41:12 I disagree right there Sep 18 09:41:21 see my last email Sep 18 09:41:25 and i mean application, not package Sep 18 09:41:28 what is your view then? Sep 18 09:41:31 i don't see emails atm Sep 18 09:41:42 I think it is: "If you _install_ a compliant app then it will work?" Sep 18 09:41:49 Or is there a promise and expectation that *any* compliant app a user can "get hold off" will install and work? This sounds unlikely. Sep 18 09:42:04 Install on all devices that allow it at least. As much as I hate manufactures that will lock down Sep 18 09:42:19 this goes to policy based stuff Sep 18 09:42:44 lbt: ok, so, 'if you install a compliant app, then it will work', that works for me Sep 18 09:42:44 Stskeeps: that is easy to insure by only having one meego device produced Sep 18 09:43:00 that concept is *REALLY* important Sep 18 09:43:08 since dependency can manage it Sep 18 09:43:21 lbt: ok, so, install can mean two things: Sep 18 09:43:33 And then you can release a Meego2 device, and then Meego3...Well, you know Sep 18 09:43:45 * install from an installation source, a repository: it's dependancies must be solved within this installation source Sep 18 09:43:57 * install from a rpm package: it's dependancies must be solved by the meego core/ux Sep 18 09:44:00 I mean it to say "yum succeeds" Sep 18 09:44:08 right Sep 18 09:44:17 so that's a 3rd Sep 18 09:44:30 since your first had a caveat of "the same" Sep 18 09:44:36 rpm package situation we can pretty much agree on: only way that this can work is if we check it only has meego core/ux dependancies, right? Sep 18 09:44:39 no other way Sep 18 09:44:48 no Sep 18 09:44:51 And what kind of packages are supposed to be in the repository? Sep 18 09:44:52 disagree Sep 18 09:45:05 if I throw an rpm with "external deps" at yum Sep 18 09:45:05 Are they rpms or something else? Sep 18 09:45:14 it looks in my repo list and tries Sep 18 09:45:21 RST38h: rpms Sep 18 09:45:34 Ok, so there are 2 kinds of rpms now? Sep 18 09:45:39 lbt: ok, let's be practical here - my point is there's two cases, repositories, and wget rpm scenario Sep 18 09:45:45 the wget rpm scenario i would like to talk about Sep 18 09:45:48 Repository-sourced rpms and package rpms? Sep 18 09:45:55 I'd forbid " rpm -i " Sep 18 09:46:00 Ditto Sep 18 09:46:04 that's a total unresolved hack Sep 18 09:46:19 Stskeeps: so wget rpm.... yes Sep 18 09:46:48 wget rpm is one that doesn't exist in a repository, and the only way to check compliance is by checking it only uses meego core/ux dependancies, right? Sep 18 09:46:51 i mean, on a technical level Sep 18 09:47:10 ah.... Sep 18 09:47:26 This is about validating compliance Sep 18 09:47:41 we have to be able to -test- compliance, otherwise it gets mighty subjective Sep 18 09:47:42 lets bench that6 Sep 18 09:47:44 second Sep 18 09:48:00 lets start by assuming the app is compliant Sep 18 09:48:01 You also have to insure that your compliance test actually means something Sep 18 09:48:18 please Sep 18 09:48:32 Because the way you define compliance now (not-dependant-on-anything-but-core) does not mean that the pacage will work on any meego device Sep 18 09:48:35 I agree we need to revisit the test question Sep 18 09:48:39 ok Sep 18 09:48:43 so i think we need to work backwards Sep 18 09:48:59 we start at the user: he wants to install an app. two installation sources: repositories, or rpm's straight from web Sep 18 09:49:04 yes Sep 18 09:49:21 but conceptually the same Sep 18 09:49:23 an rpm Sep 18 09:49:34 rpm straight from web is obvious: we can only test for this case by verifying he only uses meego core/ux dependancies, right? Sep 18 09:49:50 hold on... are we doing "test" Sep 18 09:49:51 it does not make sense to ask a guy to add X,Y,Z repository for his dependancies to resolve Sep 18 09:49:52 Stskeeps: How do you know which UX to test for? Sep 18 09:49:54 or install Sep 18 09:49:57 woah... Sep 18 09:50:04 scope please Sep 18 09:50:05 ok Sep 18 09:50:19 so, compliance is very closely linked to testing Sep 18 09:50:24 agreed... Sep 18 09:50:33 but you're making a major assumption Sep 18 09:50:38 which is? Sep 18 09:50:41 and it's so far unstated Sep 18 09:50:55 that the apps compliance is tested at install time Sep 18 09:51:04 not labelled by the developer Sep 18 09:51:07 no no.. Sep 18 09:51:09 what? Sep 18 09:51:10 :P Sep 18 09:51:39 i'm just saying that this is how a test on 'if i install a compliant app, it would work' principle would start Sep 18 09:51:47 will compliance take into account anything beyond dependency compliance? (for instance, an opengl game that looks great on some devices, but others lack the power to make it usable) Sep 18 09:51:49 it would start at exactly that Sep 18 09:51:52 OK ... but can we skip this Stskeeps Sep 18 09:52:03 and go to "assume the rpm is complliant" Sep 18 09:52:12 and how it would work Sep 18 09:52:22 no, because i think it's important to understand why some of the wording/angles by people are the way they are :P Sep 18 09:52:24 in various scenarios given various depends Sep 18 09:52:35 mmm Sep 18 09:52:36 ieatlint, that's why MeeGo compliance as a whole has minimum hardware requirements. Sep 18 09:52:36 .. we need a whiteboard Sep 18 09:52:40 yeah Sep 18 09:52:49 There are online whiteboards... Sep 18 09:53:00 for collaboration Sep 18 09:53:01 lbt: we agree on the core that compliance => i'm able to install it and it would work, right? Sep 18 09:53:12 that is the goal Sep 18 09:53:14 ok Sep 18 09:53:22 etherpad? Sep 18 09:53:29 Termana: restricting applications so that they are forced to work on the lowest hardware settings possible seems pretty stupid Sep 18 09:53:33 linky? Sep 18 09:53:56 "The EtherPad.com servers have now been shut down" Sep 18 09:54:13 ieatlint, no I mean, for a device to be MeeGo compliant it needs a minimum set of hardware Sep 18 09:54:25 try http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/Y7CitEEIga Sep 18 09:54:25 lbt: http://www.ietherpad.com/ Sep 18 09:54:38 But I'd contend that an etherpad isn't the same as a whiteboard Sep 18 09:54:49 it isnt Sep 18 09:54:52 ah, yes, this i understand, but a game that runs on a netbook may be simply unrealistic to run on a handset is my point Sep 18 09:55:01 Are specific buttons included into the hardware definition? Sep 18 09:55:28 I.e. if device A has a MENU button and application AA is written to rely on it, will AA work on a device B lacking MENU button? Sep 18 09:55:49 how about screen dimensions and color resolution? Sep 18 09:55:55 RST38h, I don't think thats really been discussed yet Sep 18 09:56:03 how about supported audio rates? Sep 18 09:56:15 Termana: Well, it better be Sep 18 09:56:22 Termana: Because... SYMBIAN! Sep 18 09:56:28 sucks Sep 18 09:56:37 Oh I'm sorry, that's not what you were saying? :P Sep 18 09:56:38 For exactly this reason,among the others. Sep 18 09:57:32 I am saying that in spite of extensive standartization and compliance testing, it was a royal pain to insure that the same Symbian app could work across different devices. Especially UIQ devices. Sep 18 09:58:18 Based on that, I am saying that the current compliance-as-function-of-dependencies discussion is somewhat pointless because such compliance does not insure that your app will work across all meego devices. Sep 18 09:59:02 Everyone else has gone quiet? Are yous searching for an online whiteboard or something? :P Sep 18 09:59:06 Also, it is fairly easy to install a missing package, but it is not possible to add missing hardware :) Sep 18 09:59:37 i think it's going to have to be assumed that there will be no way to ensure that a device has even a single button for use, and the way to force compatibility is to require that no application exclusively rely on a button being present Sep 18 09:59:57 What will be the point of having those buttons then? Sep 18 10:00:25 Also, given that we do not know what screen resolutions will be, should applications stop relying on having a screen? :) Sep 18 10:00:41 allowing an application to use the button for ease would allow it -- i just mean forcing that there be a touch-based alternative for the functionality Sep 18 10:00:57 ah ok Sep 18 10:01:34 perhaps with the ability to detect which buttons are present, and allow for the removal of the touchscreen functionality Sep 18 10:01:44 But, as a developer, I would really like that to be added at the core UI level Sep 18 10:02:10 i.e. something like a pullable tray that the developers can add virtual buttons to Sep 18 10:02:48 Something like the tray found in Maemo XTerm, just more generic Sep 18 10:03:20 BTW, lack/presense of hw buttons is only one issue of many Sep 18 10:03:41 the detection ability would have to be built in to MeeGo. Wouldn't want apps all having to write the detection code and potentially doing it differently. Sep 18 10:03:44 Screen sizes,color resolutions,audio specifics Sep 18 10:03:49 this is why apple restricts so much :P Sep 18 10:04:02 Android seems to have done fine Sep 18 10:04:23 Termana: Application should be able to say WantHWButton(KeyCode) Sep 18 10:04:30 audio specifics can be queried i know Sep 18 10:04:40 Termana: That's all application should really care about Sep 18 10:05:13 ieatlint: Same as screen size and pixel format. Yet, making an app that supports all possible combinations is damn difficult Sep 18 10:05:30 Personally, I would rather have buttons and make the buttons a requirement for compliance Sep 18 10:05:34 But that's just me :P Sep 18 10:05:37 yeah, scaling a UI is not always easy, heh Sep 18 10:25:36 RST38h, indeed, though some layouts can happily transpose themselves and it depends how the component groups handle it elegantly Sep 18 13:55:29 are there any mirrors of download3.meego.com ? this goes max. 15kb/s Sep 18 14:12:48 gemidjy: theres a meego chrome image available via torrents Sep 18 14:13:23 there's one on the front page too Sep 18 14:38:16 missing large chunks of the meego spec thread Sep 18 14:38:20 What a pain Sep 18 14:42:17 Hi everybody ... can i install meego on my iphone ? Sep 18 14:42:56 If you have an iPhone 2G or iPhone 3G and are smart enough to port MeeGo to it, yes Sep 18 14:43:10 and if you have the tools necessary to flash it Sep 18 14:43:15 do you have iPhone flashing tools? Sep 18 14:43:37 btw, isn't the iPhone 3G an OMAP3? Sep 18 14:43:53 thiago: it's jailbreaked ... but i don't have that tool ... Sep 18 14:43:54 thiago_home, iPhone 3GS is, 3G isn't Sep 18 14:44:42 Termana: i have iphone 3gs ... but i using ubuntu (Linux) ... i see some reviews for android on iphone Sep 18 14:44:43 jailbroken means that the iPhone OS inside has been hacked Sep 18 14:44:51 No Sep 18 14:44:52 that's a long way from being able to install a new OS on it Sep 18 14:45:03 TI does not make iPhone parts Sep 18 14:45:04 Bersam, 3GS won't work Sep 18 14:45:14 They're all Samsung Sep 18 14:45:25 It's only the 2G or 3G that has the ability to boot Linux Sep 18 14:45:30 Even A4 is basically Samsung Sep 18 14:45:45 Termana: what hardware are they? Sep 18 14:45:53 Booting Linux on iPhone is a desecration of a religious symbol Sep 18 14:45:57 Termana: oh ... also i have another device ... ipod touch 3G ... Sep 18 14:46:03 Samsung ARM11 Sep 18 14:46:05 thiago_home, some Samsung ARM11 stuff. GLESv1 only Sep 18 14:46:10 1.1* Sep 18 14:46:17 that's also a dealbreaker Sep 18 14:46:20 MeeGo requires GLESv2 Sep 18 14:46:25 Well, not really Sep 18 14:46:36 officially, at least Sep 18 14:46:37 But, its better to tell people that Sep 18 14:47:07 in any case, if it's ARM11 you need the ARMv5 build, the one that is turned off Sep 18 14:48:09 temporarily Sep 18 14:48:31 Is there any ARMv5 devices with GLESv2 though? :P Sep 18 14:49:01 I don't know Sep 18 14:49:11 to be frank, I don't know why we do have an ARMv5 build Sep 18 14:49:40 Because someone may just want to run meego on an ARMv5 device? Sep 18 14:49:43 thiago_home: my ipodtouch cpu is this 3rd generation: ARM Cortex-A8 833 MHz (underclocked to 600 MHz) Sep 18 14:49:49 v6 makes more sense Sep 18 14:49:49 thiago_home: not ARM11 Sep 18 14:50:14 that's ARMv7 Sep 18 14:50:20 thiago_home: historical thing, we bootsttrapped off fedora arm Sep 18 14:50:21 Bersam, your ipod touch won't work either Sep 18 14:50:48 Unless you have the skills necessary to find a boot exploit in it AND port the linux kernel to it Sep 18 14:51:28 Termana: so there is a known exploit for the first two generations? Sep 18 14:51:38 Termana: oh ... can i run it on virtual machine on my PC ? or an emulator ? Sep 18 14:53:00 Termana: i don't want that netbook edition ... i want to have MeeGo (mobile edition (like n900)) on my PC or any other devices :) Sep 18 14:53:04 thiago_home, right, the iPhone 2G and 3G have bootrom exploits, and I believe a limited amount of 3GS' do as well. iPod Touches, I believe is only the 1G ipod touch, possibly the 2G ipod touch. Sep 18 14:53:28 And then its only the 2G, 3G and 1G ipod touch that the idroid project has ported the linux kernel to Sep 18 14:54:00 To my knowledge, at least. Things might have changed since I last looked, but I don't think so. Sep 18 14:55:13 Bersam: you can run the handset edition Sep 18 15:22:56 damn, I'd like to have semantic extensions in the wiki... Sep 18 15:46:10 hellooo0oo meego fans Sep 18 15:46:27 any news on it comming out official? Sep 18 15:46:47 1.0 was released Sep 18 15:47:12 what are you looking for? Sep 18 15:48:01 meego on N900, Sep 18 15:48:23 it works, it's not usable just yet Sep 18 15:48:37 alright, thanks mate Sep 18 15:49:59 hello! while on the topic, may I ask something? As long as there is no other "official" device yet, will the N900 be the reference device for MeeGo Handset UX? Sep 18 15:50:35 or phrased alternatively, how long can we (or I :) hope/expect MeeGo Handset UX to work on the N900? Sep 18 15:50:42 hey sofar Sep 18 15:50:49 Jucato, the N900 is a reference device period. Sep 18 15:51:40 Termana: thank you Sep 18 15:52:04 There is no intentions to at some point remove it as a reference device, but I expect it will happen eventually especially as minimum hardware specs go up for compliance purposes. Sep 18 15:52:12 point to remove* Sep 18 15:53:12 I see. hopefully that's not gonna happen yet very soon (like next month?) :) Sep 18 15:53:43 Jucato, no, not soon. Sep 18 15:54:30 You'll definitely see the N900 as a reference device for the 1.1 release and most likely the 1.2 release. 1.3 is anybody's guess at this stage, since its not planned for/on the roadmap. Sep 18 15:55:13 awesome Sep 18 15:57:37 http://wiki.meego.com/images/Nexus3.jpg Sep 18 16:00:47 vgrade: what evil have you done now Sep 18 16:00:54 lol Sep 18 16:01:00 that looks nice Sep 18 16:01:09 hahaha Sep 18 16:01:19 hi Termana Sep 18 16:01:20 sweet, vgrade Sep 18 16:01:45 I didnt like it Sep 18 16:02:27 As soon as he uploads his rootfs, I can take out the Nexus One specific bits and put in the HTC Desire bits :P Sep 18 16:03:14 vgrade: what camera do you have? Sep 18 16:03:16 does it take long time? Sep 18 16:04:20 lolloo, for you, yes, it takes longer than you'll live. Sep 18 16:04:28 hahahaha Sep 18 16:04:41 you are immortal Termana Sep 18 16:06:34 vgrade: oo that's sneezy, if I don't zoom in it looks like that info is on the screen but you've added it with paint Sep 18 16:10:09 OMH unspeakable, Meego on a Nexus! At this rate, you will end up installing it to iPhone ;) Sep 18 16:11:01 mmm, usable bluetooth on the iphone Sep 18 16:11:13 it does somewhat address something I've always been wondering about: I always see talk about running Android on the N900, but wonder why there's very little about running MeeGo on Android phones Sep 18 16:11:14 only apple can cock up bluetooth Sep 18 16:11:45 vgrade: obvious question about the video, does it have the requisite hardware support? Sep 18 16:12:29 wmarone, at the moment, its running with software rendering Sep 18 16:13:07 ok Sep 18 16:13:49 that is impressive though Sep 18 16:14:08 CosmoHill 300D Sep 18 16:15:15 wmarone, basic msm fb at the moment but working on the aurora driver Sep 18 16:17:10 hey thiago_- Sep 18 16:35:07 lbt: who was it that suggested compliant repos instead of packages? Sep 18 16:35:46 not sure ... Sep 18 16:36:55 i've been brewing a bit on it and i've come to the conclusion that the only way to deal with this issue is a meego.com 'surrounds' that contains APIs for potential inclusion in MeeGo and has same mandatory maintaince as meego features Sep 18 16:37:08 where does things like open office etc lie in all this packaging stuff btw Sep 18 16:37:40 we have been concentrating on the specific uplift from maemo specific packages, but what about the general OSS favorite toys for the netbook Sep 18 16:37:48 they have same kind of problem I assume Sep 18 16:38:05 can I get gimp on appup? Sep 18 16:38:47 hi all. Stskeeps, are you here? Sep 18 16:39:07 lcuk: I don't think we*'ve been concentrating on Maemo packages, except where using them as examples. Sep 18 16:39:42 is it just me or does the "preferred" method of packaging applications described in the thread strike anyone else like Mac OS X software's tendency to drag along separate copies of commonly used 3rd party libraries? Sep 18 16:39:45 does anybody boots from n810 meego image? Sep 18 16:39:58 jaffa sure Sep 18 16:40:31 and we have the maemo community stuff as a really good available set of examples :) Sep 18 16:40:43 lcuk: Not good enough, it'd seem Sep 18 16:40:58 lcuk: liq* plugins wouldn't be compliant. Sep 18 16:41:20 Actually, there's another point - no plugin system can be compliant. Sep 18 16:41:38 Massive swathes of possible functionality wiped out Sep 18 16:41:39 hell_: yes? Sep 18 16:41:57 hell_: meego n810 is on hold as armv5 builds were disabled Sep 18 16:42:09 jaffa this was said initially Sep 18 16:42:17 things like angry birds level addon packs Sep 18 16:42:40 fall into the plugins category Sep 18 16:42:44 lcuk: Ah, I missed that initial point Sep 18 16:42:48 lcuk: indeed Sep 18 16:43:13 Stskeeps: i try to boot from mmc, flashed by your prepared image. but initfs failed to boot( Sep 18 16:43:30 hell_: initfs shouldn't boot at all Sep 18 16:43:39 kernel boots straight to mmc Sep 18 16:44:00 jaffa, since you need angry birds to get the level packs Sep 18 16:44:06 they need to have a way of doing it Sep 18 16:44:27 Stskeeps: so, i need boot a kernel by flasher, then kernel run init from ext mmc? Sep 18 16:44:40 right Sep 18 16:44:54 Jaffa: plugins are non-compliant ? so no Qt-Sql support then, those are all plugins ? Sep 18 16:47:39 berndhs: A plugin, by definition, depends on something else. If that "something" else isn't in the corep the plugin cannot be MeeGo Compliant with the intention behind the draft spec Sep 18 16:48:52 tsg meeting where this was announced, the angry birds issue was raised Sep 18 16:48:55 berndhs: I don't know how Qt-Sql works, but since Qt is in the core, Qt-Sql could be packaged as a compliant pkg. However, nothing could depend on Qt-Sql and then be compliant itself, but that's the argument for shared libraries Sep 18 16:49:22 lcuk: Ah, I tend to miss TSG meetings due to travelling and limited sense of value. Sep 18 16:49:25 vgrade: kudos btw for your work Sep 18 16:49:38 it does) Sep 18 16:49:39 Qt-Sql drivers are all plugins, Qt-Sql by itself supports nothing Sep 18 16:49:41 ahh well tho Sep 18 16:49:46 to nice blak screen Sep 18 16:50:11 aaaahh, it loading. Sep 18 16:50:12 hell_: wait a while Sep 18 16:50:26 yeah, i see Sep 18 16:50:29 but Qt-Sql is going to be in the core, so that's not an issue Sep 18 16:50:54 however, the repo system doesn't check presence or absense of plugins Sep 18 16:51:56 so installing an app that depends even on a qualified plugin doesn't guarantee that it will work Sep 18 16:52:31 this qualified-apps-will-work-everywhere idea is so full of holes, it's not even funny Sep 18 16:52:54 Stskeeps: as i understand, it hold in state without nokia internal drivers for keyb, charger, etc? Sep 18 16:53:08 Jaffa, individual liq* modules are standalone you recall :) Sep 18 16:53:16 its not really anything to do with plugins Sep 18 16:53:35 and what are you mean under "build in disabled", obs builds? Sep 18 16:53:39 just when it finds the other components on the same system it will use them :) Sep 18 16:54:32 but any kind of library is going to have problem for practically any app Sep 18 16:54:50 * lcuk ponders looking at something Sep 18 16:55:02 number of pure qt apps vs qt apps with extra dependencies Sep 18 16:55:27 * lcuk bets most will use the extra dependencies Sep 18 16:56:06 hell_: basically Sep 18 16:56:16 hell_: keyboard is there but not configured, i think Sep 18 16:57:19 Jaffa, since clutter is on the netbook image Sep 18 16:57:26 can it be depended upon for meego in general? Sep 18 16:57:41 i hear, that somebody has it's own obs. Does it really possible, to create separate obs for n8x0 meego? Sep 18 16:58:30 lcuk: no, there will probably not be clutter in handset images Sep 18 16:58:41 but but but, its in core! Sep 18 16:59:04 hell_: yes, but we would probably do a ARMv6+VFP one instead Sep 18 16:59:27 so an app certified for meego netbook usage (since it complies) will not run on meego handset Sep 18 17:03:01 Stskeeps: i thnk, that 2420 is already v6, it can run v5 code for compatibility? Sep 18 17:03:08 certification does not exist, only compliance Sep 18 17:03:34 reasonable enough Sep 18 17:03:38 second, netbook app compliance would have to be MTF based Sep 18 17:03:50 so its not app compliance Sep 18 17:04:03 the fact that parts of the current netbook UX use clutter doesn't mean that apps are Sep 18 17:04:24 netbook apps should be MTF Sep 18 17:04:30 so MTF works on netbook? Sep 18 17:04:46 i know people are porting it to ubuntu Sep 18 17:04:57 so, armv6 will break 770 support of meego? i think, 770 is too old for it) Sep 18 17:05:01 at work I have it running on several netbook sized machines Sep 18 17:05:17 hell_: perhaps #meego-arm is more suitable for that discussion Sep 18 17:05:37 but, could be quiet in there atm :) Sep 18 17:05:44 sofar, which OS are you running those on? Sep 18 17:05:54 and did you submit your patches back Sep 18 17:06:07 lcuk: I do all my meego development ON meego Sep 18 17:06:30 :) good to hear at least one person is Sep 18 17:06:37 okay) Sep 18 17:06:38 and, since I'm paid to work on MeeGo, you betcha I commit my code ;) Sep 18 17:06:58 sofar, initially people did not run the qt ide on meego itself Sep 18 17:07:09 so you code on netbook? Sep 18 17:07:32 no, but I test it Sep 18 17:07:42 hrm Sep 18 17:07:44 I maintain large parts of the MeeGo base OS Sep 18 17:07:51 can RPM packages be signed? Sep 18 17:07:52 so do you use the sdk, or have installed the -dev packages onto netbook Sep 18 17:07:59 Stskeeps: sure, yes Sep 18 17:08:05 well, as in, within-format Sep 18 17:08:26 Stskeeps: yes Sep 18 17:08:29 hrm Sep 18 17:08:32 that's how rpm signing works Sep 18 17:08:34 i'll have to google for that Sep 18 17:08:58 I'm not 100% sure on the details, but the signature is embedded afaik Sep 18 17:09:25 sofar, just for clarity you said you test on netbook Sep 18 17:09:28 lcuk: I haven't had a need to install the UX sdk parts yet, my work is all below X Sep 18 17:09:32 where do you actuall compile stuff? Sep 18 17:09:36 on the netbook or in a VM? Sep 18 17:09:52 sofar: thanks Sep 18 17:09:52 I test on netbook, handset CDK's, and my main dev system are a laptop and a i7 desktop Sep 18 17:10:03 I do not ever work in VMs Sep 18 17:10:07 VMs waste my time Sep 18 17:10:11 ok, so you do not actually have -dev libraries on your device for compiling Sep 18 17:10:22 I do on my netbooks and laptop Sep 18 17:10:33 and your netbooks and laptop are running meego natively? Sep 18 17:10:37 yes Sep 18 17:10:42 photos? Sep 18 17:10:43 :D Sep 18 17:10:49 sofar, why don't you just use OBS to compile your packages? Sep 18 17:10:50 and patches :P Sep 18 17:11:07 arfoll: local git compilation development process is a lot faster Sep 18 17:11:10 sofar, what spec machines are they Sep 18 17:11:13 especially on my laptop Sep 18 17:11:21 sofar, depends on the OBS.. Sep 18 17:11:22 lenovo t400 all-intel HW, with SSD Sep 18 17:11:47 it's about equal to OBS, unless OBS is busy Sep 18 17:11:49 then I win Sep 18 17:12:04 that's meego's main OBS Sep 18 17:12:18 sofar, how do you find the panels system for organising your workflow? Sep 18 17:12:22 of course, I'm inside the Intel corporate network so OBS access is slightly slow Sep 18 17:12:29 does the qt ide work well on it? Sep 18 17:12:47 or do you cheat and use console/vi? Sep 18 17:12:53 like I said, I have no current need to work with the SDK/Qt IDE Sep 18 17:13:16 I work on things like uxlaunch, sysvinit, dbus etc Sep 18 17:13:22 but you have the low level full complete sdk installed? Sep 18 17:13:30 I can Sep 18 17:13:38 you can, or you do? Sep 18 17:13:40 on my laptop I have almost every pattern installed Sep 18 17:14:23 its important, because until you just spoke, everyone said they use an external vm/cross compiling setup to do development work Sep 18 17:14:32 you are the first who I have heard doing it on the live OS Sep 18 17:15:00 and its obviously interesting because if I could pickup a netbook with full sdk it can be hacked on Sep 18 17:15:04 golcuk: Arajan always says he works on meego directly Sep 18 17:15:06 just like people do with ubuntu etc Sep 18 17:15:29 arjan and me have been advertising "eat your own dogfood" for a long time now Sep 18 17:15:38 arjan works on meego too Sep 18 17:15:52 sofar, you obviously don't use your phones then ;-) Sep 18 17:15:53 sofar: i tried to type that, my fingers are cold Sep 18 17:16:02 * lcuk checks backlog at some point Sep 18 17:16:03 arfoll: I do not have a mobile phone Sep 18 17:16:16 lol - not surprised Sep 18 17:16:26 sofar: would you use a meego mobile phone? Sep 18 17:16:28 sofar, i spent the longest time doing full building entirely on n810 and then n900 Sep 18 17:16:39 i had windows and no happy scratchbox setup Sep 18 17:16:45 Stskeeps: probably :) Sep 18 17:16:45 so I had to find a system which worked Sep 18 17:19:52 hmmm meego default media player uses mono Sep 18 17:20:04 the dependency is being pulled in specifically for that package Sep 18 17:20:18 yes, it's the other most-common-flamewar in meego ;) Sep 18 17:20:42 well that kinda makes it a mockery since the same media player might be wanted on handset! Sep 18 17:20:53 and shock the package has dependencies Sep 18 17:20:56 :O Sep 18 17:22:54 ugh banshee is my bane Sep 18 17:23:21 not to mention we used to have a upnp enabled player on netbook Sep 18 17:27:07 Stskeeps: they just started this spec thread so people stop fighting about deb and mono Sep 18 17:27:48 hrmwill qt sdk be on appup store? Sep 18 17:27:54 or ovi Sep 18 17:37:33 * Stskeeps sends off a proposal for the gordian knot and hides behind a rock Sep 18 17:39:46 lcuk: why would the sdk be in the store? O_o Sep 18 18:22:35 Stskeeps: I'm still confused by the "...these dependencies can only be from the set of binary packages being built as part of the applications' source package." Sep 18 18:22:58 right Sep 18 18:23:28 as in, the only other dependancies you can pull in from the installation source is packages generated by the same source package you come from Sep 18 18:23:43 so, let's say we have pulseaudio, which has pulseaudio (daemon) and -modules Sep 18 18:23:56 at installation time this would pull in both Sep 18 18:23:58 Right, so it is the situation I described, albeit with s/.tar.gz/.srpm/ Sep 18 18:23:59 ? Sep 18 18:24:31 * Stskeeps ponders how to show it with an actual example Sep 18 18:25:02 ok, first off, we have a plain meego application: this would only use dependancies from meego core Sep 18 18:25:04 how does that effect good scientific study work like fcamera? Sep 18 18:25:29 does that have to have its root dependencies in qt Sep 18 18:25:29 however, given traditional packaging, we might want to split our application into multiple subpackages Sep 18 18:25:36 and these having dependancies between eachother Sep 18 18:25:41 or can it be based on v4l2 or get or whatever it uses Sep 18 18:25:54 gst Sep 18 18:26:04 we don't want to allow let's say "just because SDL is in the 'installation source', we can depend on it" Sep 18 18:26:25 Stskeeps: That's exactly what some of us do want. Sep 18 18:26:40 yes, i know - but how do you handle the scenario where there's multiple SDL versions and variants? Sep 18 18:26:42 Stskeeps: So that we don't have to do work about porting, packaging and maintaining SDL if someone else already has. Sep 18 18:26:55 i agree with that, but in this, i would put it in Staging Sep 18 18:27:29 and indicate "this guy is maintaining it" Sep 18 18:29:20 ideally we wouldn't have any other dependancies than our 'own' application packages and meego core + profile + staging Sep 18 18:30:29 the alternative is chaos Sep 18 18:31:54 there's merit to both 'sides''s positions, and this is a middle way Sep 18 18:35:00 how does it work with openoffice? Sep 18 18:35:03 or gimp? Sep 18 18:35:31 there's a problem with plugins, i agree with that Sep 18 18:35:31 two massive applications people think of with linux and expect to be available Sep 18 18:35:47 lcuk: put them in the 'meego community appstore' Sep 18 18:37:20 is there a meego mall? Sep 18 18:37:26 where I can go to get all the apps I want? Sep 18 18:37:46 there will be many different Sep 18 18:37:56 I think meego calls that "garage" not "mall" Sep 18 18:38:25 well, Community Application Support at last name.. garage is sometimes used though Sep 18 18:38:27 I always said I would make an app-store-store one day Sep 18 18:38:37 looks like it will be needed Sep 18 18:39:22 so to get the meego community store Sep 18 18:39:33 it would need to be an app available from the other stores Sep 18 18:39:35 to add the icon Sep 18 18:39:52 or will the meego community store be available ? Sep 18 18:39:58 dunno, do we have any apps yet? ;) Sep 18 18:40:08 moblin had this sort of thing Sep 18 18:40:10 sure there are Sep 18 18:40:18 meego reference ones are community Sep 18 18:40:18 dunno why it didn't move over Sep 18 18:40:22 the whole infrastructure was there Sep 18 18:40:23 just wait until people start forking them Sep 18 18:40:41 arjan, the maemo one had 10million downloads last month Sep 18 18:40:52 arjan: i think it's still there with the open collaboration services and so on Sep 18 18:40:57 just in a different form Sep 18 18:40:57 if anything its getting stronger Sep 18 18:41:25 arjan: at least i see people here discussing it often Sep 18 18:41:40 isnt gitorious the meego version of garage Sep 18 18:41:52 nope Sep 18 18:41:59 lcuk: term confusion - garage in moblin was for downloading applications Sep 18 18:41:59 gitorious is git for developers Sep 18 18:42:05 lol Sep 18 18:42:06 in maemo it was for application development Sep 18 18:42:13 arjan: mornin' Sep 18 18:42:20 mogge Sep 18 18:42:31 (garage.maemo.org for reference..) Sep 18 18:42:54 we used to code on git.moblin.org for moblin, and just decided to go to a public place with the source code Sep 18 18:42:55 sofar: the systemd discussion is .. interesting Sep 18 18:43:09 systemd? Sep 18 18:43:17 haven't read the lists in 3 days Sep 18 18:43:22 feeling a bit better though Sep 18 18:43:25 sofar: i wouldn't start if you'd like a quiet weekend :) Sep 18 18:43:26 it seems people don't realize that, yes, JIT is a good paradigm (as shown in manufacturing).. but it means *done* just in time, not *start* when needed Sep 18 18:43:59 systemd is inside out in that sense... and somehow people drink its coolaid anyway and don't see the big architectural gap in it Sep 18 18:44:32 my personal worry is that i wouldn't want several important system daemons maintained by the same person, as there will always end up with less maintainer time for each daemon.. Sep 18 18:44:42 * Jaffa foods. Sep 18 18:45:45 well Sep 18 18:45:57 * sofar thinks Sep 18 18:46:10 the idea of having things done just in time is nice Sep 18 18:46:17 but it needs to be *finished* just in time. Sep 18 18:46:21 not *start* right when you need it Sep 18 18:46:29 because then you are guaranteed to stall .. which is bad Sep 18 18:46:35 kinda a worst case Sep 18 18:47:48 up until now we can get away with sysvinit extremely well because we're a very specific distribution Sep 18 18:47:54 that's not going to change soon Sep 18 18:48:02 I'm not saying it's an easy problem ;) Sep 18 18:48:21 but making a solution that is architectually completely guaranteed worst case is also not good ;) Sep 18 18:48:23 arjan: isn't d-bus activation kinda like that too? Sep 18 18:48:29 it is Sep 18 18:48:41 dbus activation for things you KNOW you need is thus a disaster Sep 18 18:48:56 dbus activation for things you almost never need is just fine and an acceptable tradeoff Sep 18 18:49:02 but for things you always need... not so much Sep 18 18:49:03 hence uxlaunch becoming a platform for desktop startup much more than it already was Sep 18 18:49:11 hey arjan Sep 18 18:51:00 heh, didn't know systemd got punted to fc15 either Sep 18 18:51:06 I get sick 2 days and miss all that :) Sep 18 18:51:28 arjan, will the qt sdk be compatible with the rules for applications? how about plugins for it (do they exist) Sep 18 18:51:39 ie, can I install the IDE itself Sep 18 18:51:49 on netbook Sep 18 18:51:55 should be yes Sep 18 18:52:11 assuming the netbook OS you use is meego compliant ;-) Sep 18 18:52:14 sofar: that's the replacement for init right? Sep 18 18:52:28 arjan, thinking meego Sep 18 18:52:34 CosmoHill: sysvinit/upstart/systemd/etc yes Sep 18 18:52:45 ah interesting Sep 18 18:52:58 I only have experience with sysvinit Sep 18 18:53:10 arjan, how will the stores know they are being contacted by a compliant OS? Sep 18 18:53:28 i want to create a meego mythtv package. mythtv requires the qt-sql-driver /usr/lib/qt4/plugibs/sqldrivers/libqsqlmysql.so which is not privided by any meego package. is it a bug? i forced the system to install the fedora 11 qt-mysql package but this cant be a solution Sep 18 18:53:33 lcuk: the person deploying the OS also deploys the store... Sep 18 18:53:39 nitro424: not a bug Sep 18 18:53:40 ahhh Sep 18 18:53:46 sofar: what does meego use? Sep 18 18:53:47 speaking of stores, are they linked or are they all independent? Sep 18 18:53:54 arjan, so the stores are physical apps run on the device itself :) Sep 18 18:53:54 nitro424: we don't have mysql in meego atm Sep 18 18:54:00 lcuk: assume device model..not computer deployment model Sep 18 18:54:05 nitro424: hence, qt won't have mysql bindings Sep 18 18:54:06 lcuk: generally yes Sep 18 18:54:19 nitro424: using fedora packages on meego..not generally a good idea Sep 18 18:54:19 it works with the fedora package Sep 18 18:54:23 but its dirty Sep 18 18:54:23 arjan, I try not to make ssumptions Sep 18 18:54:24 a Sep 18 18:54:34 CosmoHill: sysvinit with heavy modifications to bypass certain slow parts of a traditional sysvinit setup Sep 18 18:54:43 well Sep 18 18:54:49 even the qt4 sql demo browser works with it :) Sep 18 18:54:50 our init is from sysvinit Sep 18 18:54:52 bypass *all* parts needed really :) Sep 18 18:54:57 the actual bootflow is not Sep 18 18:55:12 meego is fully sysvinit compatible but doesn't itself use much of it Sep 18 18:55:14 is it planed to include mysql into meego? Sep 18 18:55:26 its not yoursql Sep 18 18:55:29 nitro424: no, not on the roadmap Sep 18 18:55:31 sofar: ah I remember reading about that in the link you gave me about the 5 second boot Sep 18 18:55:59 nitro424: bugs.meego.com , search for [FEA] Sep 18 18:56:02 why would a netbook need mysql? Sep 18 18:56:04 basically meego removes every init.d script that distro's usually have and provides a fast path for getting those services up Sep 18 18:56:18 i will do that Sep 18 18:56:21 CosmoHill: to run mythtv lol Sep 18 18:56:27 CosmoHill: mythtv uses it extensively Sep 18 18:56:37 i use the netbook in the bathrottm for watching tv Sep 18 18:56:41 it would need at least a client to run mythfrontend on a meego netbook etc Sep 18 18:56:50 CosmoHill, mysql is invaluable for small scale fast database uses Sep 18 18:56:51 there are a lot of reasons i think Sep 18 18:56:52 * CosmoHill reframes from commenting on that Sep 18 18:56:59 sofar: we run into that often and we're not as skilled in the meego way.. do we have some docs on recommended ways to use instead of init.d? Sep 18 18:57:03 it would be needed at very least for firefox Sep 18 18:57:04 I'm not sure if we can package or have at least the mysqlclient code Sep 18 18:57:11 cos some of the database stuff inside it is? Sep 18 18:57:20 sofar: i'm getting rather cautious over the amount of init.d's we have on n900, hence my question Sep 18 18:57:25 Stskeeps: short answer: ask me to do it - I own that part of meego Sep 18 18:57:41 absolutely, we need to poke at all of those Sep 18 18:57:55 nitro424: do you need live streaming? cos you can do everything else with mythweb... Sep 18 18:57:57 sofar: :nod: putting it on my todo - thanks Sep 18 18:57:57 but if we learn we can do it for ourselfs Sep 18 18:58:00 i want to build a client but it really needs mysql Sep 18 18:58:09 lcuk, Firefox uses sqlite Sep 18 18:58:14 or upnp players now for that matter Sep 18 18:58:22 bef0rd, ahhh ahhhh fair enough Sep 18 18:58:28 * lcuk mixed them up! Sep 18 18:58:29 CosmoHill: problem with me explaining everything to everyone is that people start hacking it to shreds and there goes the fast boot ;) Sep 18 18:58:30 hmm i have an easy mythtv installation without mythweb and stuff Sep 18 18:58:33 thanks for clarification Sep 18 18:58:42 will sqlite be available? Sep 18 18:58:43 :D Sep 18 18:58:48 bef0rd: mythtv only works with mysql afaik Sep 18 18:58:53 sqlite is supported Sep 18 18:58:53 sqlite is available Sep 18 18:58:57 yes Sep 18 18:59:00 dependable? Sep 18 18:59:05 as in "core" Sep 18 18:59:07 yes Sep 18 18:59:10 yes, mythtv needs to talk to the database running on backend, so it needs a network capable DB Sep 18 18:59:11 afaik sqlite ends up in the architectural set Sep 18 18:59:14 what if it has a security update! Sep 18 18:59:17 several key base components need sqlite Sep 18 18:59:22 or version problems? Sep 18 18:59:30 multiple versions etc Sep 18 18:59:32 file a bug Sep 18 18:59:32 mythtv compiles without problems. i could use it locally but i have a server/client arch Sep 18 18:59:37 all the bumf given about other packages Sep 18 19:00:14 seriously, a bug would be interestign against sqlite to see if we've covered sqlite db upgrades etc. Sep 18 19:00:25 arjan: by the way, we had a booting to ux btrfs image on n900 using mic2 Sep 18 19:00:31 Stskeeps, I notice from logs earlier btw, you once said you had calling from n900 on mer Sep 18 19:00:37 lcuk: no, i didn't Sep 18 19:00:38 Stskeeps: nice Sep 18 19:00:44 Stskeeps: good Sep 18 19:00:54 lol Sep 18 19:00:54 we need to verify nothing breaks, but it actually seemed more performing.. Sep 18 19:01:04 Stskeeps: I would think btrfs is nice for n900 because it can make 1 fs over the two storage blocks Sep 18 19:01:19 i think it's nice because we don't have to cp big buck bunny on first boot, too Sep 18 19:01:20 :P Sep 18 19:01:43 (thanks sofar) Sep 18 19:01:50 Stskeeps: kudos Sep 18 19:02:05 Stskeeps arjan: we made a ofono dialing on Mer on n900, shouldn't be that far off :) Sep 18 19:02:11 actually Stskeeps, you did Sep 18 19:02:17 lcuk: got terms messed up Sep 18 19:02:21 i meant meego Sep 18 19:02:34 there is already a feature request for mysql. i dont have to do that :) Sep 18 19:02:35 that was feb 18th Sep 18 19:02:42 Stskeeps: haha Sep 18 19:02:50 and we didnt have meego then Sep 18 19:03:08 can you recall which version of mer it was? Sep 18 19:03:09 well at least mic2 makes btrfs images now Sep 18 19:04:01 lcuk: oh, dialing.. yes - 7 months off ;) Sep 18 19:04:15 I can start looking at cool features using it :) Sep 18 19:04:58 i'm probably going to enjoy snapshots for development Sep 18 19:05:15 I run automated snapshots on most my systems now Sep 18 19:05:21 best rm -rf guard ever Sep 18 19:05:24 hehe Sep 18 19:05:43 but, there are a ton cool things we can do with it: Sep 18 19:05:49 - factory reset a device Sep 18 19:05:58 - OS upgrades, or downgrades! Sep 18 19:06:56 for some reason I was about to ask if sofar used VS2010 :/ Sep 18 19:07:29 imagine this: with extlinux, you can boot any number of linux operating systems from -the-same-btrfs-partition- Sep 18 19:07:58 CosmoHill: lol! last time I used VS was .... *counts* back in 1999 or so :) Sep 18 19:08:16 dude I wasn't even in highschool in 1999 Sep 18 19:08:48 the only reason I have VS2010 is so I can import my code and get an instant UML class diagram Sep 18 19:09:28 and you obviously NEED UMLclassdiagrams? Sep 18 19:09:38 I might give systemd a go on my next LFS build Sep 18 19:09:41 i think we also need some discussion on directory setup on handset and such.. and if people will want to have their documents / home directory exported over USB and so on Sep 18 19:09:54 RST38h: is got us extra points in our assignment Sep 18 19:10:02 in maemo we have this 'MyDocs' setup which is a bit ugly but gets the job done.. Sep 18 19:10:07 Oh, your assignment... Sep 18 19:10:23 RST38h: yes, i've a full time student Sep 18 19:10:25 But for all practical purposes...? Sep 18 19:10:48 this was my C++ assignment I've been talking about in the channel a fair bit at the time Sep 18 19:11:01 Stskeeps: that's an ongoing debate - I'd like to keep xdg compliance but the user's home could live on vfat for USB connectivity purposes Sep 18 19:12:06 sofar: i'm wondering how badly things would react to anything in /home/meego being inaccessible.. Sep 18 19:12:12 anything/everything Sep 18 19:12:23 Stskeeps: it's prolly gonna splode all over :) Sep 18 19:12:58 could we make it xdg compliant by having let's say, /home/meego/MyDocs/Documents, etc? i mean, xdg-user-dirs are there for a reason.. Sep 18 19:12:59 but, the vfat would be on the same storage as the rest of the image Sep 18 19:13:16 (not only l10n) Sep 18 19:13:22 we could Sep 18 19:13:48 still a can of worms though.. Sep 18 19:13:59 or we'd move other stuff out of /home/meego Sep 18 19:14:02 as we'd have to signal to apps they can't access these parts of system Sep 18 19:14:17 yup Sep 18 19:14:30 still an unsolved problem Sep 18 19:14:43 * CosmoHill gets a cup of tea to read the systemd post Sep 18 19:16:22 forget things not existing at one point Sep 18 19:16:24 or take the easy way out and lock screen and show 'usb mass storage mode in progress' ;) Sep 18 19:16:28 its people vaping stuff from windows Sep 18 19:16:37 thats funner Sep 18 19:40:54 Hi, without starting a flame war... What is/are the plans for using/including mono for apps other than banshee? Sep 18 19:41:26 as long as you can embed the whole thing inside your application, you are good to go Sep 18 19:41:48 I'll work hard to get mono *out* of all MeeGo builds Sep 18 19:42:03 why? Sep 18 19:42:06 why is that? Sep 18 19:42:40 cuz I just flipped a coin and it came up heads Sep 18 19:42:48 lol Sep 18 19:42:55 I believe him :) Sep 18 19:43:06 seriously, mono shouldn't be in MeeGo in the first place Sep 18 19:43:19 good reason why not? Sep 18 19:43:41 * smithna guesses *heads* is as good as any Sep 18 19:43:52 well, It gives me the legal creeps Sep 18 19:44:09 is mono compatible with .NET 4? Sep 18 19:44:20 haha and questions like that Sep 18 19:44:28 sofar, what about official .net? Sep 18 19:44:43 supposing a build was made from microsoft Sep 18 19:44:46 would you fight as hard? Sep 18 19:44:53 anything that smells of microsoft is probably better avoided for an open source distribution Sep 18 19:44:59 hahaha Sep 18 19:45:07 lcuk: in official meego? Sep 18 19:45:22 I could see a vendor deciding to include it on their own device, but... Sep 18 19:45:24 my daddy told me to not walk around with a sign saying "drop bomb here" on my t-shirt Sep 18 19:45:26 sofar, openness extends beyond code. Sep 18 19:45:41 lcuk: openness has to be both sides Sep 18 19:45:44 i can run mono on other open source linux distributions Sep 18 19:45:55 whether I like to isnt down to me Sep 18 19:46:08 I'll wait for MS to start dropping vague threats regarding mono against MeeGo using OEMs ;) Sep 18 19:46:23 or anything, really Sep 18 19:47:21 wmarone, you do know that mono will be used in the default meego media player Sep 18 19:47:31 I'm aware of that Sep 18 19:47:36 I don't like it Sep 18 19:47:39 only for netbook Sep 18 19:48:11 you make it sound like netbook isn't meego Sep 18 19:48:25 if its good enough for the core os to use Sep 18 19:48:42 then it should be good enough for applications? Sep 18 19:48:44 netbook has an odd history, and not all the components are what they should be Sep 18 19:48:58 unfortunately, there's nobody working on an MTF-based netbook UX Sep 18 19:49:05 yes, its more open and flexible from what I see and hear Sep 18 19:49:07 well, it's not good enough for *core* (mono packages aren't included in that part) Sep 18 19:49:09 which would be the preferable solution Sep 18 19:49:20 well there is in a way Sep 18 19:49:29 libmeegotouch is being compiled for ubuntu Sep 18 19:49:37 someone was in hte other night playing Sep 18 19:49:47 so all the meegotouch goodness will be usable on everything :D Sep 18 19:49:47 sure, MTF works on a netbook Sep 18 19:49:57 it doesn't actually make a compelling netbook UX Sep 18 19:50:20 yeah cos theres little in the way of touchability Sep 18 19:50:31 * lcuk understands this better than you imagine Sep 18 19:51:10 ah, that's very good news Sep 18 19:51:26 johnx, did you ever rebuild mer on wii? Sep 18 19:51:31 nope Sep 18 19:51:43 but that is the first thing I thought of ;) Sep 18 19:51:44 will be meego now Sep 18 19:51:46 talking touchability... I asked about mono because of a frontend for carpcs' that is using it. I wanted to see how/if that would integrate with the IVI plans Sep 18 19:51:50 yeah Sep 18 19:52:10 shouldnt IVI be on the same compliancy path? Sep 18 19:53:40 IVI seems to be lagging behind the other parts of meego, and I haven't seen much discussion about it Sep 18 19:53:58 well it was a big part of last weeks tsg Sep 18 19:54:14 sorry, IVI? Sep 18 19:54:48 in vehicle infotainment i believe Sep 18 19:54:52 or somesuch Sep 18 19:55:01 http://meego.com/downloads/releases/1.0/meego-v1.0-in-vehicle-infotainment-ivi Sep 18 19:55:30 smithna: a lot of political discussion i think Sep 18 19:55:37 smithna: same with tablet market Sep 18 19:55:39 hey the quemu image dont have X? Sep 18 19:55:55 and the keyb dont work? Sep 18 19:56:01 qemu* Sep 18 19:56:08 and hello :) Sep 18 19:56:30 aah, thanks Sep 18 19:56:57 MeeGo's UX is totally different Sep 18 19:57:07 IVI generally isn't touch-focused Sep 18 19:57:28 and the professional vendors behind that work on their own UX's Sep 18 19:57:46 What I've been struggling to figure out is if meego will be a viable solution for carpc hobbiest (those of us wanting to use linux, that is) Sep 18 19:57:50 IVI does have a reference Qt-based UX Sep 18 19:58:48 * smithna has the IVI release running on his carpc Sep 18 19:59:11 speaking of cars Sep 18 19:59:21 modern ones now are mostly computerised? Sep 18 19:59:38 can something be plugged in and actually have access to all the switches and knob settings? Sep 18 19:59:46 pretty much Sep 18 19:59:50 ie for fan control or even stereo? Sep 18 19:59:54 indicators etc Sep 18 20:00:03 Look at the CAN bus Sep 18 20:00:10 its a general question Sep 18 20:00:11 depends on the design, but, theoretically, yes Sep 18 20:00:16 i will accept your first answer :) Sep 18 20:00:30 awesome then Sep 18 20:00:49 so no need to replace the good solid valuable real interface with a new one Sep 18 20:00:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller_area_network Sep 18 20:00:54 lcuk: fuel mix yes, stereo control no Sep 18 20:01:06 ali1234, thats engine management Sep 18 20:01:10 yes Sep 18 20:01:14 i was thinking dashboard interaction Sep 18 20:01:18 that's what CAN bus is for Sep 18 20:01:36 oh dear, i just signed one of my mails as 'Carstem Unk' Sep 18 20:01:41 * Stskeeps ponders if it's time to sleep Sep 18 20:01:42 dashboard interaction... not so much Sep 18 20:02:03 lcuk: you might be interested in nokia.com/terminalmode though Sep 18 20:02:13 lcuk: you're forgetting the case where we have two SDLs and one of them has ogg disabled for patent fear reasons Sep 18 20:02:15 not that any cars have it yet Sep 18 20:02:25 Stskeeps, 2 different versions Sep 18 20:02:30 its not forgetting anything Sep 18 20:02:33 lcuk: this has actually been seen in extras Sep 18 20:02:38 and you have repository priority for that anyway Sep 18 20:02:52 yes, but repository priority is hard for the wild west :) Sep 18 20:03:00 there is no wild west Sep 18 20:03:15 Core -> profile -> Store -> Item Sep 18 20:03:21 how can you prioritise app repo 1 vs app repo 2? Sep 18 20:03:24 and I like the Profile term Sep 18 20:03:31 it embodies that middle grey part Sep 18 20:03:33 ali1234: there are ways to interact with a car stereo (depending on the brand) Sep 18 20:03:45 Stskeeps, I am buying an app from Tesco app store Sep 18 20:03:55 the dependencies cannot say to use Asda in that case Sep 18 20:04:07 who says the SDL from Tesco doesn't conflict with the one from Nokia? Sep 18 20:04:09 but it can pickup stuff from tesco shelves happily Sep 18 20:04:12 in case you buy one from there Sep 18 20:04:15 versions Sep 18 20:04:23 and the App store running on specific devices Sep 18 20:04:25 version's don't mean shit in this regard.. Sep 18 20:04:26 smithna: sure, but i figure lcuk wants something more like controlling his phone with the steering wheel (not while in motion though i hope) Sep 18 20:04:28 chumps even nokia! Sep 18 20:04:38 since nokia may not be the vendor Sep 18 20:04:41 if it's the same source package but different ./configure .. Sep 18 20:04:50 then it's darn hard to tell the difference, and it'd be only temporal Sep 18 20:04:56 so Sep 18 20:05:00 dependency chains Sep 18 20:05:07 you are making a problem out of nothingness Sep 18 20:05:18 this was solved long ago in every distro Sep 18 20:05:44 if its temporal then it really doesnt matter does it since the code is the same Sep 18 20:05:51 versions doesn't solve if provider A and provider B provides different actual code/implementation Sep 18 20:06:00 So, where can I read about the long term plans for meego? Sep 18 20:06:06 specifically IVI Sep 18 20:06:21 same source tarball, just different configure flags Sep 18 20:06:42 then the first installed one wins for same version number Sep 18 20:06:43 cmon Sep 18 20:06:53 lcuk: this often affects ABI too Sep 18 20:07:00 and now suddenly my game can't play ogg Sep 18 20:07:07 => unsatified user Sep 18 20:07:14 ABI or behaviour, for that matter Sep 18 20:07:35 why is a package offering different binaries given the same version ? Sep 18 20:07:40 changes are changes Sep 18 20:07:44 and require new versions Sep 18 20:07:55 that was learnt in class 101 develment Sep 18 20:08:00 development even Sep 18 20:08:06 * lcuk missed 101 in spelling today Sep 18 20:08:29 it's very likely that if they make same increment in versions, the problem still exists. Sep 18 20:08:35 thing is Sep 18 20:08:36 not really Sep 18 20:08:38 they shouldn't both provide it! Sep 18 20:09:02 that problem is the compliancy thing Sep 18 20:09:10 and the later one that wants to break one already there Sep 18 20:09:16 should be the one that doesnt get to the store Sep 18 20:09:28 the only perspective I can offer is from the debuntu world, and Stskeeps knows just as much about that as I do Sep 18 20:10:15 lcuk, yup. generally that's the way things go when happening inside of one repository Sep 18 20:10:29 -one- Sep 18 20:10:37 except we're going to have a large bunch of app stores Sep 18 20:10:46 exactly Sep 18 20:10:50 we have to regulate anarchy => compliance testing Sep 18 20:11:12 s/regulate anarchy/herd cats/ Sep 18 20:12:01 and we start at the case where the user has to install a package, and it has to be done succesfully Sep 18 20:12:23 we cannot guarantee this without proper regulation Sep 18 20:12:56 so ANY package in ANY store MUST be installable on ANY device with ANY other number of packages installed? Sep 18 20:12:56 sigh Sep 18 20:13:17 i believe thats the idea johnx Sep 18 20:13:41 just a gut reaction here, but that sounds like some other problems that are NP complete ... Sep 18 20:14:07 johnx: well, more specifically: any meego compliant package for a certain architecture and profile must install on that architecture and profile Sep 18 20:14:13 johnx: which is a rather fair assumption Sep 18 20:14:27 johnx: and subsequent compliant package installs should not break Sep 18 20:14:31 'profile' as in IVI, handset, tablet? Sep 18 20:14:34 for instance Sep 18 20:14:37 if it uses those APIs Sep 18 20:14:51 there can be 'meego x86' which just uses plain qt or libmeegotouch, for instance Sep 18 20:15:04 (profile not required) Sep 18 20:15:11 what happens when differences between versions happens across the profiles Sep 18 20:15:20 a version of sqlite thats core Sep 18 20:15:31 has to be tweaked in its configure part Sep 18 20:15:33 ;) Sep 18 20:15:36 * johnx cracks open a spreadsheet Sep 18 20:15:37 doesn't happen Sep 18 20:15:45 bullshit! Sep 18 20:15:52 theres differences between packages all over Sep 18 20:15:59 profiles build on top of core and doesn't replace core packages Sep 18 20:16:38 so everything on core builds on both x86 and arm Sep 18 20:16:38 ? Sep 18 20:16:49 and the api across them is identical? Sep 18 20:16:54 basically Sep 18 20:16:56 lcuk, it better Sep 18 20:17:08 otherwise that's not a very sane cross-platform distro Sep 18 20:18:25 ok, so meego netbook, would mono be inside the profile? Sep 18 20:18:32 johnx: my premise is that we can only solve this problem by requiring dependancies to be fullfilled only by meego core, the specific meego profile, the package's own subpackages and an area that contains well-regulated APIs (with people responsible to maintain them) Sep 18 20:18:58 I think that sounds reasonable Sep 18 20:19:10 lcuk: for example, not sure where it's at atm Sep 18 20:19:29 all those areas would have to be totally cross-platform, cross-profile and be version specific I think Sep 18 20:19:34 johnx: :nod: Sep 18 20:20:21 well-regulated APIs could technically be SDL and everything else - if you want to share your API with the world, take responsibility for it Sep 18 20:20:24 :P Sep 18 20:20:26 version-specific as in meego 1.1 should pull from one set, and meego 1.2 should pull from another Sep 18 20:20:39 ok Stskeeps understandable actually Sep 18 20:21:10 the thing is, everything else we can't test for, as we can't possibly know every combination of repos and packages Sep 18 20:21:13 I gather staging would need its own pre staging repositories (similar to maemo?) Sep 18 20:21:39 lcuk: right, there's a possibility for an entire sub-project in itself in it Sep 18 20:21:40 not for normal users - similar in manner to the -devel -testing etc Sep 18 20:21:50 agreed Sep 18 20:21:53 soo, what does 'sub-packages' mean. is that just things built out of the same source package? Sep 18 20:21:57 johnx: yeah Sep 18 20:22:15 its where (for instance) a set of hildon interfaces could sit? Sep 18 20:22:20 lcuk: for instance Sep 18 20:22:38 thats reasonable Sep 18 20:22:52 johnx: i could extend it to be 'any packages not shared with other repositories' but that is largely untestable Sep 18 20:22:59 since it will also solve the issue of where the developers pool themselves towards Sep 18 20:23:09 ok, so I'm joe-app developer now. I need SDL as a dependency. I don't want to maintain it for ARM, just use it on X86, so I pile their source into my source package as well, make a build script to build them both and now I've installed /usr/lib/libSDL.so Sep 18 20:23:23 what happens when we get a 'real' libSDL into the 'contrib' area later? Sep 18 20:23:41 sdl apps would have to wait for some knowledable sdl maintainer to work on the packageset Sep 18 20:23:59 johnx: well, we actually require packages to install into /opt/packagename or something.. Sep 18 20:24:04 this strikes me as a lot of extra effort and wasted space Sep 18 20:24:21 Stskeeps, very MacOS X of you :) I like it :D Sep 18 20:24:23 johnx: the hope is with the staging repo to discourage this Sep 18 20:24:23 wmarone, the staging area actually does sound reasonable Sep 18 20:24:38 sofar: I'm reading about systemd and it looks like there would be none to minimal benifit for my distro Sep 18 20:24:42 because it will draw those interested in sdl together to make sure it works "on meego" Sep 18 20:24:51 without worrying about which flavour it is Sep 18 20:24:57 they are concerned with all Sep 18 20:25:03 lcuk: they'll be required to, otherwise it wouldn't make it into staging Sep 18 20:25:13 that makes sense Sep 18 20:25:19 ie, show interest, maintainers, people you can call.. Sep 18 20:25:26 perhaps even an agreement to sign.. Sep 18 20:25:26 :P Sep 18 20:26:09 * lcuk sighs @ more paperwork Sep 18 20:26:19 we were playing with liqbase on x64 last night Sep 18 20:26:19 :) Sep 18 20:26:22 ugh @ paperwork Sep 18 20:26:42 i was learning about all the pointer to int differences :) Sep 18 20:26:46 though, gathering public keys is a nice way to go for signatures ;) Sep 18 20:26:52 Stskeeps, ok Sep 18 20:27:32 the downside is that we need to get an organisation up doing this Staging thing and i doubt we'll have it for 1.1 Sep 18 20:28:03 bbl sleep Sep 18 20:28:04 we have technical staging now - the maemo way of doing it works for arm at least Sep 18 20:28:16 'night Stskeeps Sep 18 20:28:25 * johnx wonders what part of the world Stskeeps is in ... Sep 18 20:28:34 and we could just get any maintainers interested to just start building their libraries on x86 and trying it ;) Sep 18 20:28:38 Stskeeps, gnite Sep 18 20:28:43 ah, nm. forgot how late in the day it was Sep 18 20:30:09 johnx, can we get meego running on wii please :P Sep 18 20:30:13 I think the 'contributed packages' area could easily become bigger and have more complicated inter-dependencies than core+profile given a bit of time Sep 18 20:30:18 i want to use n900 as a remote control Sep 18 20:30:31 lcuk, AFAIK, meego doesn't target PPC at all Sep 18 20:30:35 no, thats where it can be cleansed Sep 18 20:30:50 targeting PPC in this day is kind of a lost cause I think Sep 18 20:30:58 core is the super tight system where the cleanest bits go Sep 18 20:31:27 fine, just run n900 onto tvout Sep 18 20:31:54 or get a wiimote working with a normal machine ;) Sep 18 20:32:02 urg Sep 18 20:32:11 * johnx looks up at the 'wii sensor bar' taped on top of his monitor :) Sep 18 20:32:16 haha Sep 18 20:32:32 i have a triangle of LEDs on a cardboard cutout and some wires above my mouse Sep 18 20:32:57 Jaffa: have you seen Mark's latest response. Sep 18 20:33:02 i am itching to change the colour of them to green and actually try using my n900 as a mouse Sep 18 20:37:28 hi, i installed the latest meego, however, the nvidia graphics card is not supported Sep 18 20:37:55 as expected... Sep 18 20:37:57 would like to get to command line, somehow, to add the repo from vljn Sep 18 20:38:12 what's vjn? Sep 18 20:38:25 http://wiki.meego.com/User:Vljn Sep 18 20:38:38 basically, he compiles the x driver in the kickstart Sep 18 20:38:54 when the machine comes up, i see it's working, but ssh is not enabled Sep 18 20:39:05 i just need to somehow get into the machine Sep 18 20:39:29 i am looking for a suggestion to get into the machine Sep 18 20:39:35 so that i can install the drivers Sep 18 20:39:40 lookin for advice Sep 18 20:40:07 yum is installed by default (I believe) so just edit/add a repo to /etc/yum.repo.d/ Sep 18 20:40:08 looking* Sep 18 20:40:29 at the moment, i see the machine coming up (it requests dhcp) Sep 18 20:40:43 but the screen is all blue and white Sep 18 20:41:12 http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/linux-tutorials-howtos-reference-material/19652-how-create-yum-repos-fc3.html Sep 18 20:41:47 to get to command line just do ctrl-alt-f1 Sep 18 20:42:11 smithna: hmm. i tried that, but it did not work Sep 18 20:42:12 that works with the IVI, haven't tried with others Sep 18 20:42:26 i think the gfx is hosed by now Sep 18 20:42:37 maybe i can try change the image from outside Sep 18 20:44:07 what drivers are you using now, to boot up? Sep 18 20:44:35 whatever the default install uses Sep 18 20:44:48 i just installed and ran once Sep 18 20:44:58 I would ensure it's using the VESA driver Sep 18 20:44:59 boots up ok otherwise Sep 18 20:45:10 i will mount it from outside Sep 18 20:45:24 is there a key to press to give the kernel boot options? Sep 18 20:45:30 i rather work natively if i can Sep 18 20:46:07 The boot loader is grub, which has some way to do that -- I just don't recall Sep 18 20:46:48 aha. i got into grub Sep 18 20:49:02 cpg: zypper install openssh-server Sep 18 20:49:15 at boot, add '3' to the kernel command line Sep 18 20:49:29 shift, tab should work Sep 18 20:49:41 nice, sofar Sep 18 20:51:34 putting 3 does not seem to help. the grub image sits there ... and i see the system booting , seemingly, from the dhcp request and the hard drive light Sep 18 20:51:38 getting close :) Sep 18 20:51:58 pressing the power button shuts it down cleanly, which is nice Sep 18 20:52:01 the '3' tells it to boot to runlevel 3 Sep 18 20:52:05 basically not starting X Sep 18 20:52:36 at that point you can login as root and muck about Sep 18 20:53:35 great! worked by removing the vga=current! Sep 18 20:53:46 thanks sofar, smithna ! Sep 18 20:53:56 sofar: using init 3 meego mostly works on non-SSSE3 computers Sep 18 20:54:30 well yeah, most of the optimizations are used in UX applications calculating floats for screen positions Sep 18 20:54:43 rpm works but yum and zypper doesn't >.< Sep 18 20:55:04 what's the problem with zypper? Sep 18 20:55:15 both have "illegal instruction" error Sep 18 20:55:19 oh Sep 18 20:55:28 good, nothing that needs to be fixed then Sep 18 20:55:50 http://black-flag.co.uk/files/meego-on-p4.jpg Sep 18 20:57:06 hehe Sep 18 21:00:14 who's Mr. Norman? :) Sep 18 21:00:53 eep Sep 18 21:01:22 someone who has a muffin Sep 18 21:10:55 is zypper a meego thing? like a wrapper around yum? Sep 18 21:11:15 it's a RPM package manager like yum Sep 18 21:11:41 I think zypper will replace yum at some point i meego but for now we have both Sep 18 21:11:55 k Sep 18 21:12:33 i am trying to get the nvidia stuff compiled. however, the kernel this system is running is 2.6.33.3-11.1-netbook Sep 18 21:12:42 and the kernel devel is 2.6.33.5-24.1-netbook Sep 18 21:12:48 goof luck with that Sep 18 21:12:59 there are no updates for these, though Sep 18 21:13:03 run zypper update or zypper upgrade Sep 18 21:13:46 no kernel updates, near as i can tell from the list Sep 18 21:18:46 there will only be zypper from 1.1 on Sep 18 21:18:55 all test/daily images are already without yum Sep 18 21:19:12 zypper is opensuse's replacement for yum Sep 18 21:20:31 yay I was right Sep 18 21:23:00 sofar: so where/how do you add repo to zypper? I guess I need to move my repos over... Sep 18 21:23:17 /etc/zypp/repo.d/ Sep 18 21:23:31 * CosmoHill offers sofar a muffin Sep 18 21:23:47 reminds me I need to work out a way to do debuginfo-install with zypper Sep 18 21:24:03 what is meego? Sep 18 21:24:08 awesome Sep 18 21:24:19 an open source linux distribution targeting mobile devices Sep 18 21:24:24 for more information go to meego.com Sep 18 21:24:27 created by merging maemo and moblin Sep 18 21:24:48 do we have a bot for this stuff? Sep 18 21:24:51 !meego Sep 18 21:24:57 !help Sep 18 21:24:57 would you like sploosh? Sep 18 21:25:06 I wonder if it would be helpful Sep 18 21:25:19 I know there are a few bots in here but no idea who controls them Sep 18 21:25:34 huh Sep 18 21:25:36 sofar: actually to be honest not many people come in here asking what meego is Sep 18 21:25:40 so it's like an OS for mobile devises Sep 18 21:25:50 mode14: yes Sep 18 21:26:00 mode14: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeeGo Sep 18 21:26:16 ok Sep 18 21:26:19 u guys are neat! Sep 18 21:26:20 you wouldn't happen to be 14 years old btw? Sep 18 21:26:27 lol Sep 18 21:26:33 nope Sep 18 21:26:37 96? Sep 18 21:26:39 he's 12 Sep 18 21:26:43 ;) Sep 18 21:27:13 just kidding Sep 18 21:27:17 * johnx has been told he has the attention span and maturity of a 12 year old Sep 18 21:27:21 I had an 11 year old quiz me to prove I was the real cosmo because I had to reconnect Sep 18 21:27:23 mode14 was old BBS i started back when i was 14 Sep 18 21:27:36 hah Sep 18 21:27:40 you just admitted to be old Sep 18 21:27:43 you said "BBS" Sep 18 21:27:44 the fact that I ghosted my nick and became op wasn't classed as proof Sep 18 21:28:07 Be Back Soon? Sep 18 21:28:24 BBS's where pretty cool in the day Sep 18 21:28:27 CosmoHill: you must be a noob for not knowing that :P Sep 18 21:29:31 :o Sep 18 21:29:38 I miss .QWK Sep 18 21:29:45 stop making things up Sep 18 21:30:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWK_%28file_format%29 Sep 18 21:31:03 tbh I never used BBS's myself. I had a friend though who overloaded his dad's phone bill for my purposes without problems though :) Sep 18 21:31:52 * johnx started using computers a bit later than most geeks Sep 18 21:33:28 I got my first computer two years after sofar stop using VS Sep 18 21:33:39 hahaha Sep 18 21:33:54 first time I used a computer was in '84 Sep 18 21:33:54 bought one of the first sub-$1000 dollar desktops available in the US Sep 18 21:34:09 your first computer is older than me Sep 18 21:34:11 my school was the first elementary school with a computer in the country Sep 18 21:35:23 my first computer was a VIC-20 Sep 18 21:35:44 PRESS PLAY ON TAPE_ Sep 18 21:35:51 mum's first computer is in the loft Sep 18 21:36:11 it's actually strange. they had me making LOGO 'programs' on an Apple ][ in 3rd and 4th grade (circa 93/94, but I never really got back into computers until '99 or so Sep 18 21:36:11 all I remeber was that it was green on black on the screen and I wasn't allow to touch it Sep 18 21:36:25 an apple II in 1994? Sep 18 21:36:38 that is one impoverished school Sep 18 21:37:22 kfx, they had a couple newer 386/486-type machines, but yeah, it was a Catholic school. it also might have been a newer Apple machine, but it was definitely non-macintosh, and definitely had a separate floppy drive Sep 18 21:37:48 the Apple IIgs was the last decent product apple produced Sep 18 21:39:01 matter of opinion :) Sep 18 21:39:05 * CosmoHill is a computer scavanger Sep 18 21:39:26 CosmoHill, oh yes, been there, done that. Just be careful not to become a parts-hoarder Sep 18 21:39:27 johnx: it's been hypercard ever since. Sep 18 21:39:39 bit to late Sep 18 21:39:53 I have a "collection" of powermac G4s, none of which I had to buy Sep 18 21:40:21 Hi, where can I find sshd and samba server for meego? Sep 18 21:40:26 I couldn't find them in the repositories. Sep 18 21:40:34 someone gave me a few dual-proc powermac g5s Sep 18 21:40:41 I wasted a lot of time trying to make them useful Sep 18 21:40:43 Blice: zypper search sshd Sep 18 21:41:05 my friend has car parts in his G5 :/ Sep 18 21:41:22 oh wait, the cooling was made by a car company and that was why it leaked Sep 18 21:41:27 horrible machines Sep 18 21:41:30 kfx, the other computer on my desk is actually a G5 imac. works well enough. I have ports installed and it's generally non-annoying Sep 18 21:41:51 it runs *really* hot though Sep 18 21:41:55 most of the uselessness is because the crippled OFW Sep 18 21:41:59 yeah those things are space heaters Sep 18 21:42:18 crippled OFW? dunno, it boots from USB so I'm happy Sep 18 21:42:28 and you can't even put a real OS on them because Apple can't code Forth worth a crap Sep 18 21:42:39 Blice: zypper install openssh-server Sep 18 21:42:46 Blice: there's no smb/cifs server in meego Sep 18 21:43:10 johnx: original G5 Powermacs couldn't boot from usb because the OFW reset the USB connection mid-boot. It was firewire or nothing. Sep 18 21:43:12 hey, u guys are great! i really like this channel Sep 18 21:43:14 it feels like home Sep 18 21:43:17 but i gotta run Sep 18 21:43:26 'later mode14 Sep 18 21:43:34 laterz Sep 18 21:43:47 kfx, yeah. the OFW varies pretty impressively between different Macs Sep 18 21:43:56 I was really lucky with the powerbook G4 I have Sep 18 21:44:07 those were almost really good machines Sep 18 21:44:15 runs debian great Sep 18 21:44:21 if they would have had some quality control they could have been great Sep 18 21:44:23 the power socket is *&#$#ing awful though Sep 18 21:44:38 I've tried to get one one in the past but most of the ones floating around now have hosed motherboards Sep 18 21:44:47 ah, I had the last gen of 15" powerbook made. I think they must have worked out most of the problems by then Sep 18 21:44:51 * CosmoHill will return once he's helped someone with binutils Sep 18 21:47:20 really strangely, it's one of the best linux-running laptops I've come across Sep 18 21:48:22 nobody can be wrong all the time! :) Sep 18 21:48:29 suspend-resume has never crashed it, and fan/thermal management seems to work just fine Sep 18 21:48:49 yeah, it's just I usually don't manage to scavenge *working* stuff Sep 18 21:48:58 all the thermal stuff should be handled by the mainboard in power systems, I think Sep 18 21:49:08 fan control? Sep 18 21:49:11 yeah Sep 18 21:49:18 the firmware will manage it ... kinda Sep 18 21:49:27 but if you expose it to the linux kernel it'll work a lot better Sep 18 21:49:32 I mean, I'm sure it's exposed for manual control, but power systems (even servers) generally handle that on their own Sep 18 21:49:44 anyone wanna help me help someone with binutils? Sep 18 21:50:03 *crickets* Sep 18 21:50:17 thermal control has bitten apple in the ass at other times, too. macbook airs will disable a processor core at a certain threshhold, then the system loses all stability Sep 18 21:50:24 ah, Mr Tumble Weed, You up for a challenge? Sep 18 21:50:41 CosmoHill, what problem/error do they see? Sep 18 21:50:48 http://pastebin.com/aGMVQxrC. Sep 18 21:50:49 http://pastebin.com/aGMVQxrC Sep 18 21:51:17 ahahaha. LFS Sep 18 21:51:21 nope. no help from me Sep 18 21:51:35 autotools screwing up? no possible way Sep 18 21:51:41 I'm impressed you reconised that by an error Sep 18 21:51:49 /mnt/lfs ? :P Sep 18 21:51:54 hush you Sep 18 21:52:10 the whole point of LFS is to learn the whole system inside and out Sep 18 21:52:23 if someone else gives you answers it becomes *completely* pointless Sep 18 21:52:34 do you know my biggest problem with LFS? Sep 18 21:52:48 unhelpful people named johnx? :D Sep 18 21:52:50 autotools? Sep 18 21:52:51 I compile it without any issues Sep 18 21:53:02 kfx: there is no autotools in there Sep 18 21:53:30 you wrote a ./configure script from scratch? Sep 18 21:53:47 it comes with binutils Sep 18 21:54:06 oh you mean automake and autoconf? kk Sep 18 21:54:07 and is part of autotools Sep 18 21:54:41 something is wrong with that configure script. find out what it's doing to test that int8_t thing and fix the test program Sep 18 21:55:34 hmm Sep 18 21:55:48 check config.log or such Sep 18 21:58:21 http://pastebin.com/DuJYsMG0 Sep 18 22:02:44 lbt: The "don't agree that [...] supporting componentised applications is an objective we should take for the near term" one? Sep 18 22:02:59 hi, how can i seelect the kernel that boots? there does not seem to be a grub.conf or menu.conf Sep 18 22:03:01 CosmoHill: looks like you're either a) missing libc for the target architecture or b) have an outdated gcc (cf. http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=45084 ) Sep 18 22:03:02 yea Sep 18 22:03:11 stubs.h is missing Sep 18 22:03:20 lbt: yes. Sep 18 22:03:53 I dunno what I feel about that Sep 18 22:04:34 lbt: seen it's become one of the election issues? Sep 18 22:04:53 I gues the MeeGo Inside sticker is more important than the principles Sep 18 22:05:01 no... url? Sep 18 22:05:26 lbt Sep 18 22:05:33 lcuk Sep 18 22:06:06 lbt: Well, it's got overshadowed by w00t_ this evening. Damn him ;-) Sep 18 22:06:07 lbt: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=819883#post819883 Sep 18 22:07:23 heh... Sep 18 22:07:27 9:20pm uk time in here, i think I understand carstens idea about the meego staging area for cross platform libraries to be held and maintained Sep 18 22:08:08 lcuk, is 'staging' the name that people are going with? Sep 18 22:08:21 I've decided to rest my brain for the night so I'm playing with ldap's cn=config and kerberos instead ;) Sep 18 22:08:32 lbt, fun times :D Sep 18 22:08:38 sounds very restful Sep 18 22:09:05 johnx: heh... it was a year+5days ago today that I started on this -- you recall? Sep 18 22:09:11 johnx: my biggest problem with LFS is that the people in the support channel can cock up LFS in amazing ways you can't even imagine Sep 18 22:09:17 My self signed cert expired ;) Sep 18 22:09:40 you'll have to email yourself a new csr Sep 18 22:10:02 CosmoHill, by suggesting you do totally weird things? Sep 18 22:10:24 lbt, ahaha. I was going to guess that you were still working on it a year later :) Sep 18 22:10:28 no I do LFS perfectly without any issues which is what makes it hard for me to help people Sep 18 22:10:46 johnx: no... I'm setting up Meego.com ldap now... Sep 18 22:10:54 actually my debian 'testing' install 'upgraded' itself from config-on-disk to cn=config the other day. remarkably it all came up working Sep 18 22:10:59 you all need krb5 bwahahhaha Sep 18 22:11:17 lbt: what witch craft is this that you speak of? Sep 18 22:11:24 * kfx issues a ticket-granting-ticket Sep 18 22:11:32 lbt, I played with krb5 for a while then decided it wasn't worth the hassle. I can see it being a good idea for a big single sign-on type thing though Sep 18 22:11:41 * lbt explains to revd Kathy how to get a kerberos ticket Sep 18 22:11:50 krb5 is super awesome once you get it set up Sep 18 22:12:08 I've used to to set up shared roaming homedirs in windows and linux Sep 18 22:12:15 yeah, krb5 is like falling down a flight of stairs to find a pot of gold Sep 18 22:12:16 johnx: yeah... my desktop has it... it's a pita if it expires since $HOME is on kerberised nfs... Sep 18 22:12:23 spend enough time with krb5 and you can look like a magician Sep 18 22:12:26 including the grey hair Sep 18 22:12:40 and the random arcane murmuring Sep 18 22:12:50 and the weird robes Sep 18 22:12:53 -L10d Sep 18 22:14:07 johnx, seems ok for now Sep 18 22:14:38 staging just implies that after it sits here for a while it will go somewhere else Sep 18 22:14:47 yes it does Sep 18 22:14:55 'contributed libraries' makes a lot more sense, but I guess I should get on the mailing list and duke it out Sep 18 22:15:16 wait, so it will go somewhere else after a while? maybe I don't understand the proposal... Sep 18 22:15:25 I thought Surrounds was gaining a foothold :) Sep 18 22:15:41 I propose suburbs! Sep 18 22:15:44 freedom medway :) Sep 18 22:15:58 Staging implies a definite intent to move to Core Sep 18 22:16:03 aaaah, the meego shantytown! Sep 18 22:16:09 and I don't think that's true Sep 18 22:16:14 lbt++ Sep 18 22:16:16 is there really a problem with distributing a package that installs an additional package repository? Sep 18 22:16:16 Suburbs is nice Sep 18 22:16:22 kfx: no Sep 18 22:16:28 but calling it compliant is the issue Sep 18 22:16:30 there may be no intent to enter the core Sep 18 22:16:37 which is a branding problem Sep 18 22:16:52 well, it's a user experience problem that can be avoided with some planning Sep 18 22:16:59 lbt: you sell a compliant device, and a savvy user installes meego-extras if she so desires. problem avoided Sep 18 22:17:00 yon typical OSS application won't be allowed to be labelled "compliant" Sep 18 22:17:14 its not always convenient to just change everything because the application may have a strong foothold on other platforms with the toolkits available there Sep 18 22:17:19 so yon typical OSS application will be forever 2nd class Sep 18 22:17:27 and basically we can improve user experience and developer experience with some pre-planning Sep 18 22:17:37 yon typical OSS app can statically link if they want 1st class stuff Sep 18 22:17:38 sorry to butt-in -- can someone provide me with a pointer to select what kernel gets run at boot time, i don't even see grub installed Sep 18 22:17:39 you won't be able to "port" things to meego Sep 18 22:17:53 lbt huh? Sep 18 22:17:55 kfx: yes... making the barrier to port that much higher Sep 18 22:17:56 of course you can Sep 18 22:18:02 cpg, is this on meego-arm? meego netbook? ... ? Sep 18 22:18:07 but let's face it, yon typical OSS app is second class right now and always has been Sep 18 22:18:09 netbook Sep 18 22:18:09 cpg: /etc/extlinux/extlinux.conf if it's netbook Sep 18 22:18:09 lcuk: not and label them comliant Sep 18 22:18:12 Is it true that wayland might be going into meego? Sep 18 22:18:15 that's not meego's fault Sep 18 22:18:19 kfx, and we have a chance *right now* to try and fix that Sep 18 22:18:22 ScottishDuck: *might* ? Sep 18 22:18:28 kfx: and this keeps them that way Sep 18 22:18:29 ScottishDuck: anything might Sep 18 22:18:46 johnx: indeed Sep 18 22:18:57 in media, there's a dropdown and autofilled in it is "Music", I drop it down and the only options are Playlist and Music- where is video? Is there a way for me to add things to this dropdown? Sep 18 22:18:59 sofar: no /etc/extlinux Sep 18 22:19:09 speak now or forever hold your piece ;) Sep 18 22:19:09 whoops /boot/extlinux Sep 18 22:19:10 sorry Sep 18 22:19:39 ScottishDuck: wayland isn't stable or particularly useful atm Sep 18 22:19:48 I seriously doubt anyone at all will ship wayland Sep 18 22:19:52 Blice: gb/2 futaba Sep 18 22:20:10 wayland is very very far away Sep 18 22:20:12 ScottishDuck: using meego as my media center atm Sep 18 22:20:40 I'd rather have awesome OSS apps treated as second class by marketing drones than hose up the normal development process by injecting random demands from marketing drones Sep 18 22:20:43 ScottishDuck: I might just install one of those other linux media center softwares ontop of futaba instead, if I can't get the quirks out of meego Sep 18 22:21:02 kfx: then prepared to be forever excluded because you aren't bringing in money Sep 18 22:21:13 kfx: there are solutions Sep 18 22:21:18 and consider yourself a fool for helping those who are treaing you poorly Sep 18 22:21:22 but there is no will to explore them Sep 18 22:21:37 kfx, uhm, it's not a one or the other type deal, AFAICT. it's about making an opportunity to get your deps closer to core so other people can take advantage of them *if you want* Sep 18 22:21:38 haha the usual depressed opinions are out Sep 18 22:21:41 wmarone: I don't understand what you're saying, but fortunately, I don't care Sep 18 22:22:07 kfx, did you see Stskeeps' thoughts further up in the scrollback? Sep 18 22:22:09 kfx: helping meego along, only to be told by people "oh your stuff is going to be treated as second class" is a fool's errand Sep 18 22:22:18 lbt, once a developer gets to a stage where he has an app built on one platform Sep 18 22:22:19 johnx: I understand that, but it sounds like someone is going to have to explain automatic dependency resolution to some extremely non-technical people Sep 18 22:22:28 as open source Sep 18 22:22:28 hey Sep 18 22:22:36 i just got an n900 Sep 18 22:22:47 enjoy Sep 18 22:22:48 any one can tell me if i cacn install meego in it ? Sep 18 22:22:59 thanjs sofar Sep 18 22:23:00 sure you can, but do you want to? Sep 18 22:23:05 it doesn't make calls yet Sep 18 22:23:11 is that bad yet ? Sep 18 22:23:16 kfx, yes, Stskeeps will be the person who has to do that I think. Luckily he's in the right place to do it Sep 18 22:23:23 thanks sofar Sep 18 22:23:27 hahhaha Sep 18 22:23:45 haave any ideia when it might be ready ? Sep 18 22:23:59 sfrique_, when other people pitch in and help, maybe? Sep 18 22:24:10 questions containing the word "when" can't be answered by the people who know Sep 18 22:24:10 either that or just sign up for the mailing list and wait for announcements Sep 18 22:24:12 kfx: Our senior managers understand Ivy (JAR dependency management) as much as they need to in reducing the complexity of building our complex enterprise software. That's why I get paid the big architectural bucks *cough*: to be able to explain such deeply technical concepts as a "directed ordered graph" Sep 18 22:24:42 thanks so far Sep 18 22:24:57 Jaffa: who do you work for actually? Sep 18 22:25:11 Jaffa: yeah, I just work for people who understand computers. :) but I know such a privilege is very rare Sep 18 22:25:17 johnx how can i help ? hahah Sep 18 22:25:49 sfrique_, http://meego.com/developers is a good start Sep 18 22:26:04 sofar: thanks again Sep 18 22:26:04 i am not a developer Sep 18 22:26:15 just wondoring if i can do anything to help Sep 18 22:26:15 but let me read Sep 18 22:26:27 there's a ton to do if you can help Sep 18 22:26:36 one of the best things to do is test & file bugs Sep 18 22:27:00 how coulld i test ? Sep 18 22:27:03 so, anyone know how to edit what all folders the media tab will look through? Sep 18 22:27:04 is there an virtual image ? Sep 18 22:27:18 do the meego core devs actually read the bug tracker? Sep 18 22:27:21 that would be fantastic Sep 18 22:27:32 lbt, then you know what we do Sep 18 22:27:35 kfx: I do Sep 18 22:27:50 awesome Sep 18 22:28:04 not every bug but I try to browse incoming bugs regularly Sep 18 22:28:10 lbt, we put out as much info about what to check for for the meego crossplatformy ness needed Sep 18 22:28:15 in case you see an unattended bug I can escalate Sep 18 22:28:24 I was just curious Sep 18 22:28:28 stskeeps is very reactive too Sep 18 22:28:33 pro-active even Sep 18 22:28:37 Take lost od "MeeGo Complaint" stickers to the conference? Sep 18 22:28:39 i have been playing with my maemo packages on ubuntu at the moment Sep 18 22:28:40 maemo bugs were handled ...strangely Sep 18 22:28:54 it would be good to get some hw that can run it on Sep 18 22:29:34 I hate to say it but getting a cheap netbook that runs meego is one of the better ways of help testing Sep 18 22:29:43 "Shopper, a MeeGo Complaint application" Sep 18 22:29:50 * lbt likes that :) Sep 18 22:29:53 i hate not being able to touch and draw on my code Sep 18 22:29:55 easy to install, etc. most hardware supported Sep 18 22:30:00 i have been using a4 pad again recently Sep 18 22:30:13 lcuk: fortunately there's a few multitouch capable machines Sep 18 22:30:17 but it must accept a stylus or pen of some sort !! Sep 18 22:30:23 wacom Sep 18 22:30:24 arrandale graphics aren't supported in meego yet Sep 18 22:30:29 sofar, multitouch is a bonus Sep 18 22:30:34 dual mode ones exist Sep 18 22:30:43 stylus only slows me down when coding Sep 18 22:30:44 best one out there is lenovo s10-3t Sep 18 22:30:53 I think HP is coming out with something soon, not sure Sep 18 22:30:54 i have to hold stylus and type at same time its drustrating Sep 18 22:31:05 frustrating Sep 18 22:31:47 I'd personally be interested in a cheap arm-based test platform Sep 18 22:31:52 but I haven't found one yet Sep 18 22:31:55 mmm, so I guess we're getting a samsung galaxy tab in at work. hope I'll be able to drag it home for a weekend and see if can get it booting a non-android kernel Sep 18 22:32:04 my lenovo x41 was almost perfect Sep 18 22:32:11 but for lacking multitouch ontop Sep 18 22:32:11 sofar, arm-based netbook-type? or arm-based tablet-type? Sep 18 22:32:19 johnx: either Sep 18 22:32:30 efika mx netbook Sep 18 22:32:40 mtouch? Sep 18 22:32:40 haven't used it, but looks like a reasonable thing Sep 18 22:32:48 nope. not touchscreen Sep 18 22:32:54 aaah, didn't realize that's what you meant Sep 18 22:33:07 yeah for handset UX, kinda need mtouch Sep 18 22:33:45 johnx, liqflow on this x201, i can run it with 25000 particles instead of the n900 version which uses 200-1000 ;) Sep 18 22:34:04 yeah. the core i3/i5 is serious hardware :) Sep 18 22:34:23 errr its x200s Sep 18 22:34:45 johnx: i3/i5 is great for running meego, except no multitouch platforms yet Sep 18 22:35:59 johnx, i found out though, running it on a desktop, to do scrolling it needs mousewheel support :O Sep 18 22:36:08 kids can play in the i5 pool, I'll be over here with my i7 Sep 18 22:36:30 i7 also runs meego fine, obviously :) Sep 18 22:37:06 ScottishDuck, over here in AMD-land, sitting on the fat part of the price/performance curve :) Sep 18 22:37:25 wow Sep 18 22:37:26 http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/18/intel-wants-to-charge-50-to-unlock-stuff-your-cpu-can-already-d/ Sep 18 22:37:40 wmarone, aaaawesome Sep 18 22:37:48 Can't see you from the top of the performance mountain, johnx :P Sep 18 22:37:49 that's why competition is good :) Sep 18 22:38:07 ScottishDuck, the foothills are nice and comfy, and a lot easier to get to :D Sep 18 22:38:13 indeed, AMD needs to pick it up Sep 18 22:38:45 sofar: http://www.chpconsulting.com/ Sep 18 22:41:19 I might get some AMD computers soon :) Sep 18 22:41:43 Jaffa: spiffy website :) Sep 18 22:42:47 sofar: Got redone a few months ago. Sep 18 22:42:50 I can see grading :o Sep 18 22:43:20 sofar: Old version had an announcement when I was hired. That was nice :-) Sep 18 22:43:36 sofar: New version doesn't go back to 2005 :-( Sep 18 22:45:55 sofar: Shows up in http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CC4QxQEwBg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fviewer%3Fa%3Dv%26q%3Dcache%3Asab3gejlJzkJ%3Awww.robinson-toms.com%2Fdownloads%2FLeasing%252520Life%252520recruitment%252520article%252520Robinson%252520Toms%252520Recruitment%252520March%25252005.pdf%2Bchp%2Bconsulting%2B%2522andrew%2Bflegg%2522%26hl%3Den%26pid%3Dbl%26srcid%3DADGEESiZIhb3eODIfqEWHleUNSVAgzDgiOaxKQB7ggqm2oSaP3lamef Sep 18 22:46:03 Eugh Sep 18 22:46:17 ouch Sep 18 22:47:05 Yay; http://web.archive.org/web/20050316152247/www.chp.co.uk/press_releases/PR_AndrewFlegg_Feb05.html Sep 18 22:49:32 I want my own press release ... >_< Sep 18 22:50:42 Being quoted on the BBC and in the NY Times is quite nice too (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3666660.stm & http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/21/technology/circuits/21next.html) - but now I'm just showing off. Sep 18 22:50:49 Well, actually, that's it :-( Sep 18 22:51:43 why is the bbc using a picute of mac OS 9? Sep 18 22:52:20 CosmoHill: Sep 18 22:52:28 you're James Bell? Sep 18 22:52:32 ... Sep 18 22:52:59 CosmoHill: No, he worked for me ;-) Sep 18 22:53:20 * CosmoHill throws away the joke he had planned Sep 18 22:55:23 CosmoHill, wasteful to throw them away. Save them and recycle them :D Sep 18 22:55:42 who knows, james bell might run along in here Sep 18 22:55:51 if you were James Bell I was gonna say "ever thought of working for Bell Labs and pretending you own the company?" Sep 18 22:56:03 heh Sep 18 22:56:20 CosmoHill: I suspect that joke might be like a fine wine. Sep 18 22:56:20 I had a colleage at my former group at intel. his name was Andrew Grover Sep 18 22:56:44 CosmoHill: It may need some time to... get better ;-) Sep 18 23:00:05 * CosmoHill sticks on a shelf in tesco Sep 18 23:05:22 * CosmoHill is starting to think about jobs Sep 18 23:05:52 MSR is within a 2 miles from the cambridge campus. I go to the other campus 50 miles away >.< Sep 18 23:06:50 so, can i install meego on me iphone ? Sep 18 23:07:01 you can certainly try Sep 18 23:07:09 can you install anything on an iphone? Sep 18 23:07:18 just bootstrap it Sep 18 23:07:36 it's a full os or what ? Sep 18 23:08:00 are you familiar with google? Sep 18 23:08:06 my troll sense is tingling Sep 18 23:08:22 yes Sep 18 23:08:25 i've used google Sep 18 23:08:41 mode14, yeah. just get linux going on the iphone, then add the meego bits Sep 18 23:08:55 so, it's not an os ? Sep 18 23:09:04 it's a linux distro Sep 18 23:09:04 just an application of some kind ? Sep 18 23:09:12 oooo Sep 18 23:09:15 ok my bad Sep 18 23:09:16 you're actions don't enforce your answer Sep 18 23:09:31 s/you're/your/ Sep 18 23:09:31 CosmoHill meant: your actions don't enforce your answer Sep 18 23:09:53 * mode14 slaps infobot around a bit with a large trout Sep 18 23:10:04 what is it with americans and trout? Sep 18 23:10:08 lol Sep 18 23:10:12 u don't like trout? Sep 18 23:10:22 I don't like fish in general Sep 18 23:10:26 me neither Sep 18 23:10:33 that's why i smack peeps with em Sep 18 23:10:56 CosmoHill: I blame Khaled Mardam-Bey Sep 18 23:11:05 * CosmoHill smiles and nods Sep 18 23:11:28 heh Sep 18 23:11:36 think khaled ever made any $ on mirc? Sep 18 23:11:43 oh yes Sep 18 23:12:24 I really should go to bed Sep 18 23:12:30 ok, good night! Sep 18 23:12:32 I have to be up at 8am!....on Monday Sep 18 23:12:47 mode14: there are two kinds of things: things I do and things I should be doing Sep 18 23:12:55 don't worry i'll hold down the chan for u Sep 18 23:12:56 ;) Sep 18 23:13:09 ahh Sep 18 23:13:09 ic Sep 18 23:13:30 and I'll let the kids watch the bently whilst I'm out Sep 18 23:13:45 (if it moves they're to shoot it) Sep 18 23:14:22 so Sep 18 23:14:24 just to recap Sep 18 23:14:31 meego is not a phone OS ? Sep 18 23:14:49 meego is a few things Sep 18 23:15:07 car pc, netbook / nettop/ handset and bugger what was the last one Sep 18 23:15:09 tablet! Sep 18 23:15:17 meego is a linux distro. there is a version of meego for phones, commonly called 'meego handset' Sep 18 23:15:33 what phone would it run on ? Sep 18 23:15:37 mode14, do you know what we mean by linux distro? Sep 18 23:15:38 droid ? Sep 18 23:15:40 N900 Sep 18 23:15:46 yessir Sep 18 23:15:51 ubuntu Sep 18 23:15:52 arch Sep 18 23:15:55 lbt, the giants causeway has many pillars who could make this union of openness visual Sep 18 23:15:55 and a load of us are going near there in a few weeks ;) Sep 18 23:15:55 would be great to flood that with media and spool it together Sep 18 23:15:57 redhat Sep 18 23:16:04 mode14: you can stop now Sep 18 23:16:11 N900 is one of the reference platforms. Nokia's N9 is rumored to be the first handset to ship with meego Sep 18 23:16:26 pretty cool Sep 18 23:16:26 aavid is a dev phone for meego Sep 18 23:16:39 so, can u, say run mysql+apache on it? Sep 18 23:16:44 no Sep 18 23:16:56 if you really wanted to, you could probably package mysql and apache for it Sep 18 23:16:59 ssh into ur phone from ur desk .. check ur missed calls Sep 18 23:17:02 someone already asked about that today and there is no mysql for meego yet Sep 18 23:17:10 also you don't need apache on a netbook Sep 18 23:17:20 says you Sep 18 23:17:22 ;P Sep 18 23:17:35 says me with apache, mysql and php on my laptop Sep 18 23:17:38 hrmm Sep 18 23:17:44 so it comes with vim ? Sep 18 23:17:56 you have to install vim via zyppper Sep 18 23:18:22 how about python ? Sep 18 23:18:27 probably Sep 18 23:18:30 python on my phone would be pretty cool Sep 18 23:18:49 python is easy :) Sep 18 23:18:55 New intel platform leaked: http://i.imgur.com/em7PX.jpg Sep 18 23:19:01 wmarone: wouldn't lighttpd be better? Sep 18 23:19:19 xginx Sep 18 23:19:24 CosmoHill: sure, it's available in the maemo repos :) Sep 18 23:19:34 cool Sep 18 23:19:46 ok Sep 18 23:20:06 so, when can I expect to see a meego product on the shelf in Texas? Sep 18 23:20:18 i mean goto best buy, and buy a phone, comes with meego Sep 18 23:20:20 or tablet Sep 18 23:20:21 no oen here can tell you Sep 18 23:20:23 one* Sep 18 23:20:28 no Sep 18 23:20:32 secret ? Sep 18 23:20:34 meego people hate texas Sep 18 23:20:36 i won't tell Sep 18 23:20:39 no, -we don't know- Sep 18 23:20:43 lol Sep 18 23:20:47 nobody knows why but they just don't want meego in texas Sep 18 23:20:50 i heard meego people hate texas Sep 18 23:20:56 so it is true! Sep 18 23:20:58 yeah you heard it from me Sep 18 23:21:01 man Sep 18 23:21:03 that is wrong Sep 18 23:21:03 if (question_contains("when")) { cant_tell(); } Sep 18 23:21:24 if 'when' in question: Sep 18 23:21:31 cant_tell() Sep 18 23:21:35 ? Sep 18 23:21:46 meego will run on sony tvs, nokias and small yappy dogs Sep 18 23:21:55 o ya Sep 18 23:21:59 sony tv's running linux? Sep 18 23:22:01 pretty cool Sep 18 23:22:23 basically, people who know planned dates for stuff can not tell that information to you. Sep 18 23:22:24 with mysql/postgre + apache + python/php ? Sep 18 23:22:35 ssh into my tv Sep 18 23:22:35 not by default Sep 18 23:22:39 so, you won't get an answer to "when" questions Sep 18 23:22:44 tail syslog on my tv Sep 18 23:22:45 yes they come bundled with web servers on the off change someoen wants apache on the train Sep 18 23:23:15 irsii ? Sep 18 23:23:31 xchat for windows Sep 18 23:23:33 via wine Sep 18 23:23:43 bundled Sep 18 23:23:45 ? Sep 18 23:23:53 ok Sep 18 23:23:55 nm Sep 18 23:23:59 i dont use irsii Sep 18 23:24:11 ok Sep 18 23:24:13 just to recap Sep 18 23:24:30 meego = linux distro for netbooks/tablets/phones/wrist watches Sep 18 23:24:31 ? Sep 18 23:24:38 and TVs Sep 18 23:24:42 yup Sep 18 23:24:44 my bad Sep 18 23:24:45 tv's Sep 18 23:24:45 and small yappy dogs Sep 18 23:24:50 maybe cable boxes too ? Sep 18 23:24:54 sure Sep 18 23:24:57 no, satalite only Sep 18 23:25:02 ok Sep 18 23:25:03 how about Sep 18 23:25:06 no Sep 18 23:25:08 just no Sep 18 23:25:08 refrigerators ? Sep 18 23:25:12 no Sep 18 23:25:19 right Sep 18 23:25:23 that would be silly Sep 18 23:25:24 refrigerators are run by real embedded OS's Sep 18 23:25:24 are you fridgist? Sep 18 23:25:26 unless it has a HP-PA 7100 processor Sep 18 23:25:41 MeeGo is "general purpose" Sep 18 23:25:41 how about, Cars ? Sep 18 23:25:44 bmw's ? Sep 18 23:25:45 mode14 as long as your fridge has an ARMv7 or above processor and suitable display/input hardware, I don't see why not Sep 18 23:25:47 meego will run on cars Sep 18 23:25:50 IVI Sep 18 23:25:55 is what it's called Sep 18 23:25:59 john, i've seen some fridges running windows ... Sep 18 23:26:11 so, meego is really the future.. huh? Sep 18 23:26:12 mode14: that's cold Sep 18 23:26:17 johnx: the milk is the mouse pointer Sep 18 23:26:18 lol, for real Sep 18 23:26:22 they are hot right now Sep 18 23:26:32 so you can run browser on the fridge, and leave notes, and shopping lists, etc... Sep 18 23:26:46 made by LG i believe Sep 18 23:26:52 they sell em at Fry's Sep 18 23:27:09 so, what are u guys doing here? u are meego developers ? Sep 18 23:27:13 or using it right now ? Sep 18 23:27:27 on a tablet ? Sep 18 23:27:31 or small yappy dog Sep 18 23:27:37 or a dead badget Sep 18 23:27:41 *badger Sep 18 23:27:48 hrmm Sep 18 23:27:49 i think i could have meego in a mouse Sep 18 23:27:49 *sign Sep 18 23:27:52 now i am confused Sep 18 23:27:55 and like it Sep 18 23:28:08 gas pumps ? Sep 18 23:28:19 why? Sep 18 23:28:20 I came in here looking for fruit but they wouldn't let me leave Sep 18 23:28:28 your handheld would know you were at the pump Sep 18 23:28:42 but, the pump could run on meego Sep 18 23:28:51 also, the ATM Sep 18 23:28:57 the console UX Sep 18 23:28:58 :D Sep 18 23:29:18 nite all, sweet dreams Sep 18 23:29:24 bye trem Sep 18 23:29:25 laterz! Sep 18 23:29:29 nite trem \o Sep 18 23:29:41 so Sep 18 23:29:43 just to recap Sep 18 23:29:55 meego is a mini linux distro Sep 18 23:30:01 designed for embedded systems Sep 18 23:30:08 like a phone, watch, or small yappy dog Sep 18 23:30:09 ? Sep 18 23:30:17 yes Sep 18 23:30:29 so Sep 18 23:30:32 can i download an iso Sep 18 23:30:38 no Sep 18 23:30:40 and run it on my netbook Sep 18 23:30:40 ? Sep 18 23:30:49 go to meego.com Sep 18 23:31:14 the image is on the front page, best of luck Sep 18 23:31:23 wow Sep 18 23:31:24 Intel Atom-based in-vehicle Sep 18 23:31:30 u guys didn't tell me Sep 18 23:31:33 about vehicle Sep 18 23:31:57 holding out with the good stuff, huh? Sep 18 23:32:05 you are gonna shit your pants when you see the fighter jet UX Sep 18 23:32:11 no Sep 18 23:32:12 ! Sep 18 23:32:16 mode14: some of us are paid to work on MeeGo (like me), some are just groupies (like cosmo) Sep 18 23:32:21 especially if you're british Sep 18 23:32:28 damn US guidance system Sep 18 23:32:36 now Sep 18 23:32:41 to recap Sep 18 23:32:49 meego even runs fighter jets Sep 18 23:32:55 but, *only british Sep 18 23:33:03 do the brits even have fighter jets ? Sep 18 23:33:09 plenty Sep 18 23:33:15 the brits make their own Sep 18 23:33:19 harrier for instance Sep 18 23:33:21 hrmm Sep 18 23:33:23 harrier yea Sep 18 23:33:27 isn't that a dead deal ? Sep 18 23:33:37 no we went to Iraq with a large ammount of A4 paper Sep 18 23:33:46 hey Sep 18 23:33:50 good question Sep 18 23:33:55 does meego run in Iraq ? Sep 18 23:33:58 if it's dead, tell the US they're buying dead machines :) Sep 18 23:33:58 or Iran ? Sep 18 23:34:14 how about Meego in Afghanistan? that would be something else Sep 18 23:34:20 rapidly approaching off-topic here ... lol Sep 18 23:34:26 mode14: would you be willing to go there to find out? Sep 18 23:34:30 yessir Sep 18 23:34:33 mode14: we don't know. what's the interest? Sep 18 23:34:36 i am already making plans Sep 18 23:34:36 then go, be free Sep 18 23:34:44 maybe Sep 18 23:34:53 in-flight entertainment will run on Meego ? Sep 18 23:34:59 possibly Sep 18 23:35:08 possibly, or likely ? Sep 18 23:35:17 how about this irc server Sep 18 23:35:25 unlikely Sep 18 23:35:25 meego come with ircd ? Sep 18 23:35:29 no Sep 18 23:35:32 that would be pretty cool Sep 18 23:35:39 ircd on my wrist-watch Sep 18 23:35:39 it wouldn't Sep 18 23:35:43 or ircd on a fighter jet Sep 18 23:35:55 even, ircd on my refrigerator Sep 18 23:36:06 sounds useless to me, to be honest. Sep 18 23:36:11 hrmm Sep 18 23:36:12 *sign Sep 18 23:36:15 ok then Sep 18 23:36:20 let's recap once more Sep 18 23:36:35 meego can possibly power Barack Obama Sep 18 23:36:36 ? Sep 18 23:36:39 o nevermind Sep 18 23:36:44 he is useless Sep 18 23:36:58 Warning: approaching off-topic limits Sep 18 23:37:03 is the 14 in your nickname your age? Sep 18 23:37:03 ok ok Sep 18 23:37:04 i c Sep 18 23:37:07 lol Sep 18 23:37:09 no sir Sep 18 23:37:14 ahf: mental Sep 18 23:37:17 * mode14 slaps ahf around a bit with a large trout Sep 18 23:37:23 CosmoHill: yeah. Sep 18 23:37:25 now Sep 18 23:37:29 let's all behave here Sep 18 23:37:41 i don't like to get my trout out Sep 18 23:37:45 lets try and keep the discussion open and neutral please Sep 18 23:37:50 yessir Sep 18 23:37:52 will do. Sep 18 23:38:21 ok, so... meego will or won't come with open office Sep 18 23:38:22 ? Sep 18 23:38:45 will it even run X ? Sep 18 23:38:50 probably not out of the box, but you'll likely be able to install it (garage/app) etc Sep 18 23:38:56 yes, MeeGo runs X Sep 18 23:39:02 yea? really? Sep 18 23:39:08 that's pretty cool Sep 18 23:39:09 already does, yes Sep 18 23:39:18 X on a phone.. Sep 18 23:39:22 or even a small yappy dog Sep 18 23:39:26 MeeGo supports OpenGL / GLES Sep 18 23:39:32 dam Sep 18 23:39:36 there are plenty of phones that run X Sep 18 23:39:38 u guys aren't playing around huh Sep 18 23:39:45 o ya ? Sep 18 23:39:52 * rwhitby suspects mode14 is baiting people here, cause just about every question asked so far is explained on meego.com .... Sep 18 23:39:54 n900/maemo does Sep 18 23:40:12 can i hack my iphone to run meego ? Sep 18 23:40:24 ok Sep 18 23:40:25 look Sep 18 23:40:28 * mode14 slaps rwhitby around a bit with a large trout Sep 18 23:40:31 i'm out of here Sep 18 23:40:36 i'm tired of the disrespect Sep 18 23:40:37 ! Sep 18 23:40:51 hm. Sep 18 23:41:17 Good morning Sep 18 23:41:25 'oatse. Sep 18 23:41:58 really should have just ignored him from the start Sep 18 23:43:11 he was about 1 minute away of getting moderated by me Sep 18 23:43:29 I have banned people for annoying the regulars Sep 18 23:43:48 I can take quite a bit more but it's no longer productive at a certain point Sep 18 23:44:03 stupidity too > http://black-flag.co.uk/files/banned.txt Sep 18 23:48:24 I allow people to talk off topic but you must help someone if they ask for it Sep 19 00:06:06 sofar: so much quieter in here :) Sep 19 00:06:48 as soon as someone goes on a irc chat spree red flags appear Sep 19 00:07:08 china? Sep 19 00:07:17 s/china/chinesse/ Sep 19 00:07:17 CosmoHill meant: chinesse? Sep 19 00:10:52 this is by far the biggest channel I hang out in and trolls are relativly new to me Sep 19 00:11:56 most I have to put up with are hyper active kids and people who give you step by step commentary of what they are doing (apart from the bits they do wrong) Sep 19 00:12:38 that's nothing.. since I work for Intel I get to put up with all the flame attempts :) Sep 19 00:13:46 I decided not to mention you're from intel or a ninja in front of him Sep 19 00:14:05 I have no problems disclosing my employment Sep 19 00:14:20 it keeps things honest Sep 19 00:14:57 I'd reframe from mentioning it if it meant that person might take some flack as a result Sep 19 00:16:23 I have to wake up at 8am...on monday >.< Sep 19 00:16:50 I have no choice but to wake up at random times... when my 5month old son wakes up :) Sep 19 00:17:01 awww Sep 19 00:17:37 Soon he'll learn his first bash command Sep 19 00:17:40 congrats on the kid btw Sep 19 00:19:05 nothing says "good morning" like a lecture on parallel programming Sep 19 00:19:23 maybe you should learn to parallel your life Sep 19 00:20:01 string theory makes it possible Sep 19 00:20:23 damn hard to model if you have a cat tho Sep 19 00:20:43 just use two cats instead Sep 19 00:20:49 2cat Sep 19 00:20:58 Noone will get the reference Sep 19 00:21:31 unless someone here plays dwarf fortress Sep 19 00:21:33 (2cat || !2cat) = question Sep 19 00:22:06 oh god I just wrote shakespear in code >.< Sep 19 00:22:25 nobody point out that you can't start variables with numbers Sep 19 00:22:29 I think shakespear used Haskell Sep 19 00:26:23 (2b) ? suffer(slings, arrows) : sleep(*dream); Sep 19 00:27:18 $misfortunate = array(slings, arrows); Sep 19 00:27:53 * sofar slaps everyone with Perl::Poetry Sep 19 00:29:25 I recently upgraded perl so that's broken Sep 19 00:29:57 cyas **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Sep 19 02:59:56 2010