**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Oct 19 02:59:57 2010 Oct 19 03:00:21 Does anybody knows that the differences between MCT and MNT? Oct 19 03:00:59 are they all test tools or test case repository? Oct 19 03:01:51 who can answer my question, this will be a huge help Oct 19 03:09:37 Hi guys. How's it goin? Oct 19 03:10:01 what do you mean? Oct 19 03:10:35 How are you... :p Oct 19 03:10:52 Have read the requirements page on the website and just curious... will Meego run on older hardware or only on Atom based CPU's? Oct 19 03:11:14 ie.. if I have an old laptop with an Intel Pentium CPU etc Oct 19 03:17:07 DEMNVT: i don't know for certain, but I believe at the moment it only supports Atom based CPUs (or ARM for the handset image). I could be wrong. Oct 19 03:20:12 DEMNVT, MeeGo supports CPU's that are SSSE3 compatible for x86 and armv7 for ARM. An old pentium would not fit these requirements. Oct 19 03:22:22 ok.. no worries. Oct 19 03:22:34 Thought that would be the case. Oct 19 03:23:37 Was just curious to see whether it would be a good replacement for the Windows XP install on the laptop at the moment as it's frightfully slow. Might just have to bight the bullet and buy wifey a new netbook :p Oct 19 03:41:59 hi Oct 19 05:17:57 would not it be better to write a mail to him ? Oct 19 05:45:27 moin Oct 19 08:50:29 Hi everyone, just wanted to ask, does MeeGo support Nvidia cards? Oct 19 08:51:55 not at current state but once someone takes responsibility of the patches needed.. Oct 19 08:52:12 Guys, I have an NVIDIA GeForce 9500 GT and Intel Core 2 Quad Q8400. Will meego run on my machine?? Help anyone. Oct 19 08:55:05 maitraya, hi, check this, maybe this helps : http://wiki.meego.com/User:Vljn#Meego_with_NVIDIA_hardware Oct 19 08:55:40 Thanks Oct 19 08:56:41 maitraya: NVidia is supported if someone makes it supported Oct 19 08:58:04 Thanks everyone for your help. Oct 19 09:11:17 thiago, Your offer is tempting... "We don't want to invest any more in maintaining this, so you do it"... Oct 19 09:11:33 dneary: we want to invest time in the proper solution Oct 19 09:11:50 not in a hack that is dead-end Oct 19 09:12:01 thiago, I can certainly understand if there's frustration with the transparency of module selection. For me too. Oct 19 09:12:14 thiago, I do wonder how effective your messaging will be, thoughh Oct 19 09:12:21 you don't understand the frustration in this whole multi-point touch thing... Oct 19 09:12:26 we've been at it for 2 years Oct 19 09:12:34 fork Xorg? Oct 19 09:12:35 ;p Oct 19 09:12:37 we've been waiting for x.org to support it for 2 years Oct 19 09:13:04 Good indication that it won't. Oct 19 09:13:04 we've already written a hackish, temporary solution not once, but twice Oct 19 09:13:27 I don't want to invest time in the current dead-end solution because I know it will only make the proper solution be even more delayed Oct 19 09:13:54 thiago: so what specific things in xorg is being waited on? Oct 19 09:14:31 the input driver that delivers XInput 2.1 events Oct 19 09:14:39 does patches exist already? Oct 19 09:14:50 the XInput 2.1 spec is still in draft because the discussions are dragging along Oct 19 09:15:00 ah, that kind of problem.. Oct 19 09:15:02 the one person who could work on this says he'll only have time next year Oct 19 09:15:21 which is fair enough, but I'm pretty sure both Intel and Nokia have x.org developers who could take the lead Oct 19 09:15:43 worst case scenario: ask TSG for an exception to the upstream-first rule for Xorg to get the work n Oct 19 09:15:46 in Oct 19 09:16:25 there's no "upstream-first" solution right now Oct 19 09:16:38 exactly, hence patching meego xorg with a proper soluton Oct 19 09:16:39 :P Oct 19 09:16:43 so if MeeGo 1.2 wants touch support, it will need a patch somewhere Oct 19 09:16:50 I'm simply asking that we work towards XInput 2.1, not 2.0 Oct 19 09:18:07 if the mail continues to be ignored, drag in the four horsemen (architects) to get a solution on the road Oct 19 09:18:21 next week I'm meeting with Canonical people who also want touch support Oct 19 09:18:35 they are working in X.org Oct 19 09:18:40 thiago, Escalate to TSG Oct 19 09:18:47 so that's actually three companies that can do X.org development Oct 19 09:18:56 (I actually have a fourth, but not at liberty to discuss) Oct 19 09:19:06 given enough push it should be possible.. Oct 19 09:19:08 thiago, The architects are supposed to discuss & decide on things like this. Isn't there a Nokian architect? Oct 19 09:19:15 my worry is that we'll be called upon to maintain that XInput 2.0 branch, while Canonical goes ahead and implements XInput 2.1 Oct 19 09:19:22 without our input (no pun intended) Oct 19 09:19:38 then X.org 1.10 is out and doesn't work for our needs Oct 19 09:19:52 dneary: there is a nokian architect. He's coming to Oslo tomorrow. Oct 19 09:20:18 well, two - sakari and mikko Oct 19 09:20:24 (core and handset) Oct 19 09:20:29 sakari is coming Oct 19 09:20:39 :nod: Oct 19 09:20:39 this is one of the subjects on the table for discussion Oct 19 09:20:51 should be productive then Oct 19 09:20:59 It'd be cool if that kind of discussion could happen on meego-dev Oct 19 09:21:17 and then the in-person meetings could just be about resolving final differences Oct 19 09:21:27 dneary: as with anything, sometimes face to face meetings are the only way to make things move :/ Oct 19 09:21:32 most of the discussion we'll have isn't about the meego releases, but about how the two entities inside Nokia cooperate to improve MeeGo Oct 19 09:22:00 Qt and MeeGo join in the organisational hierarchy at the CTO level only Oct 19 09:22:16 so this is not public discussion, it's internal organisation Oct 19 09:22:39 but whatever comes out of the touch discussion I'll try to post Oct 19 09:23:25 well i guess the prime thing is that 'would xorg accept patches for xinput 1.2 if they come from someone else that can work on it this year' Oct 19 09:32:56 Stskeeps, I'm happy to have F2F meetings when you have a difference of opinion that needs to be hashed out & decided Oct 19 09:33:03 But not to expose reasoning Oct 19 09:33:24 Explain your position in public, resolve differences in person if necessary Oct 19 09:33:56 Stskeeps, I looked at that Xorg release plan Oct 19 09:34:06 Note that Xorg isn't the most reliable project... Oct 19 09:34:19 And there's no guarantee that the XInput patches will go in to 1.10 Oct 19 09:34:30 And 1.10 isn't planned on being released until 02-11 Oct 19 09:34:51 So, to my untrained, uninformed eye, that looks like a major risk to a February release plan Oct 19 09:34:58 which is the problem Oct 19 09:35:17 but if the patches are accepted into X.org, we can backport them to 1.9, which is what we're using Oct 19 09:35:33 OK Oct 19 09:35:46 So there are patches in the proposal pipeline for 1.10? Oct 19 09:36:10 at this point, I'm trying to get developers for writing the patch Oct 19 09:36:29 I'm not able to execute qmake under debian ia32 inside the scratchbox 2, anyone with the same problem? Oct 19 09:36:31 given that mtev exists and that we have 4 companies that want this "yesterday", we can find one devel to write Oct 19 09:36:53 piotr: we don't use sb2 in meego Oct 19 09:36:55 or sb Oct 19 09:37:12 true, my problem is with maemo, sorry Oct 19 09:37:25 I've been trying to get this developer for 2 months now Oct 19 09:37:29 so time is making the decision for me Oct 19 09:39:10 thiago, Sounds like that should be the starting point for me, no? Oct 19 09:39:21 dneary: sorry? Oct 19 09:39:46 Proposing a patch to Xorg that does things "the right way" for touch Oct 19 09:39:53 yes Oct 19 09:41:03 Having now jumped in to your defense (see list), I'm wondering what your proposed ideal plan of attack would be Oct 19 09:41:39 Write a patch to support XInput 1.2 draft spec touch events, propose it for Xorg 1.10, get it accepted, have MeeGo 1.2 use Xorg 1.10? Oct 19 09:41:45 2.1, not 1.2 Oct 19 09:42:03 write a patch that we can work with Oct 19 09:42:15 we still need to develop the Qt counterpart to those touch events Oct 19 09:42:27 I have two developers who can work on this, but there's nothing to test against Oct 19 09:43:07 give me until tomorrow after the meeting with sakari Oct 19 09:43:18 I think I can work with that fourth company to provide us the developer Oct 19 09:44:00 ok Oct 19 10:20:37 Hi. I'd like to try a recent MeeGo release on my N900. Now I'm confused which version I should try. What is the difference between 1.1.80.2.20101015.1 (the latest version I could find) and 1.0.99.2.20101015 (other people on the forum are referring to)? Oct 19 10:20:51 1.0.99 is what you should go for, 1.1.80 is 1.2 release track Oct 19 10:20:55 1.0.99 is 1.1 release track Oct 19 10:21:47 Stskeeps: Thanks. Is there a Wiki page about the different goals of the 1.1 and 1.2 tracks? Oct 19 10:23:39 1.1 is getting released soon, 1.2 is the next version Oct 19 10:27:10 and getting released not-so-soon Oct 19 10:36:02 hmm, 500 students and staff members but only 550 parking spaces, thank god I cycle Oct 19 10:36:13 s/500/5000/ Oct 19 10:36:13 CosmoHill meant: hmm, 5000 students and staff members but only 550 parking spaces, thank god I cycle Oct 19 10:37:31 hello friends, Oct 19 10:37:31 i'd like to ask: would meego run on samsung galaxy tab or olivepad or notion ink adam? Oct 19 10:38:33 they all run android Oct 19 10:38:48 if you can figure out how to boot meego and if it means the hardware requirements I don't see why not Oct 19 10:40:04 CosmoHill: is there usually a method to boot another os? Oct 19 10:41:41 I'm not familiar with tablet devices and I don't know what boot loader they use Oct 19 10:42:01 if they support USB boot that would be a good starting place Oct 19 10:50:30 CosmoHill: as long as they have uboot that can read a kernel image from µSD and boot that, I'm game Oct 19 11:01:14 Bostik: CosmoHill: i thank you both. i'll check with that projects Oct 19 11:12:39 how hard is it to get qml working in n900 running meego? Oct 19 11:13:26 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35194 Oct 19 11:13:57 and you can find a lot of videos on youtube about it, even kdepim. Oct 19 11:14:59 Tormis: give it a try.. at leat glesv2 should be there Oct 19 11:14:59 i m unable to download the mic code grom git.. has anyone been successful in doing so? has the paths changed? Oct 19 11:17:06 http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-developer-tools/image-creator -> I do not think so. Oct 19 11:17:12 do you behind a proxy ? Oct 19 11:17:22 no Oct 19 11:17:39 did you try the http protocol ? Oct 19 11:18:32 djszapi: i am following this http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Creating_ARM_image_using_MeeGo_Image_Creator documentation Oct 19 11:18:43 i have tried .. but let me try again Oct 19 11:22:38 djszapi: this command worked 'git clone git://meebo.gitorious.org/meego-developer-tools/image-creator.git' Oct 19 11:22:41 :) Oct 19 11:23:06 k, good :) Oct 19 11:23:32 that is mentioned on the repo site. Oct 19 11:24:29 meebo ? Oct 19 11:24:55 I hope that is just a typo :) Oct 19 11:25:44 yes Oct 19 11:26:11 iubuntu@ubuntu:~$ git clone git://meebo.gitorious.org/meego-developer-tools/image-creator.git Initialized empty Git repository in /home/ubuntu/image-creator/.git/ remote: Counting objects: 3893, done. remote: Compressing objects: 100% (2030/2030), done. remote: Total 3893 (delta 2829), reused 2548 (delta 1800) Receiving ob Oct 19 11:27:11 lawl, you should notify them then..I am not sure it is the expected url name :P Oct 19 11:29:03 ya .. Oct 19 11:29:21 :P Oct 19 11:38:42 hey lcuk, did you hear that tomorrow CO meeting has been cancelled? Oct 19 11:40:48 yes CosmoHill Oct 19 11:41:48 the usb port in n900 is on the wrong side of the phone :/ Oct 19 11:47:57 hi Oct 19 11:47:58 so who Oct 19 11:48:06 's coming to Tampere meetup today? Oct 19 11:49:04 i might be coming Oct 19 11:49:33 cool Oct 19 11:54:26 djszapi, Stskeeps: looks like a quite big job.. Oct 19 11:54:57 where should one find all these files from? http://bit.ly/aZS903 i couldnt find even half of them :P Oct 19 11:54:59 uh, I didn't remember the meetup Oct 19 11:55:01 Jukka_: I am, of course Oct 19 11:55:13 please please please RSVP at the meetup Oct 19 11:55:32 so Riussi_ etc. know how much drink and food they need to get Oct 19 11:55:44 Jukka_, where that meeting is? Oct 19 11:56:07 http://www.meetup.com/Tampere-MeeGo-Network/calendar/14695050/ Oct 19 11:56:17 we've prepared for ~30 participants currently Oct 19 11:56:20 good I brough it up then :) Oct 19 11:56:22 but still time to adjust Oct 19 11:56:31 i'm getting the stuff at 5 p.m. Oct 19 11:58:12 anybody know where to get class 10 SDHC card? Oct 19 11:58:24 Jukka: Froogle? Oct 19 11:59:22 where's that meetup held or do i need to finally sign up there to see it? :) Oct 19 12:02:52 Myrtti, Riussi: OK to tell to pvuorela? :) Oct 19 12:03:01 Jukka_: sure Oct 19 12:03:05 Protomo(Demola) Väinö Linnan aukio 15 Tampere Oct 19 12:03:15 but, please get into meetup.com also Oct 19 12:03:36 yeah, I've paid for it :-D Oct 19 12:03:47 such an awful waste of moneys :-P Oct 19 12:04:13 RST38h, thanks looks like class 6 is best I can get from verkkokauppa etc. Oct 19 12:08:16 i'll try to. there were just all kinds of difficult questions, like who i am, that provided an excuse to postpone it :) Oct 19 12:08:46 :) Oct 19 12:08:55 pvuorela: I'm a geek with an interest Oct 19 12:09:11 BTW, anybody able and willing to build a kernel and rootfs for beagle for me? Oct 19 12:09:16 pvuorela: they're not mandatory questions, you can leave them blank or fill them with information that you deem important Oct 19 12:09:28 I have a tablet I'd like to get Meego on Oct 19 12:09:39 http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Meego_on_Beagleboard_from_scratch Oct 19 12:09:46 I have a phone I wish someone would flash with latest Android... *cough* Oct 19 12:09:52 lol Oct 19 12:10:17 I don't mix and match... android devices as android devices and meego ones with meego Oct 19 12:10:31 not that I have anything with meego, for that matter Oct 19 12:11:52 I'm taking my FlipCam with, btw Oct 19 12:12:08 so I can record stuff if there's presentations Oct 19 12:12:21 hehe Oct 19 12:12:57 my tablet doesn't have a preferred OS Oct 19 12:13:22 Jukka_: if you need the card right away then no idea but atleast: http://www.jimmspc.fi/tuote/SDC10%2F16GB?t=false Oct 19 12:13:44 dolp, yea I find it in verkkokauppa Oct 19 12:13:51 30€.. Oct 19 12:14:10 for previews of stuff I've recorded in the past: http://myrtti.blip.tv/ Oct 19 12:14:34 if I end up in intermets, I won't come Oct 19 12:14:39 internets.. Oct 19 12:15:37 well I'm pretty easy to spot, I'll point out where I'm leaving the camera, IF I end up recording anything Oct 19 12:15:49 so you know where the camera is and can avoid it if you so wish Oct 19 12:16:44 and you can enjoy my first class English accent. Oct 19 12:17:48 * sx0n enrolled Oct 19 12:18:22 finns are born to speak fluent english Oct 19 12:18:37 too bad very few use the opportunity then Oct 19 12:18:54 and I've been mistaken for a native speaker during the past three years so many times I've lost count. Oct 19 12:19:00 even by native speakers. Oct 19 12:20:20 anyway, I can't decide should I leave for city center yet... Oct 19 12:27:16 right Oct 19 12:27:55 one thing I've noticed when working at Nokia, I don't even notice anymore when I speak english Oct 19 12:28:03 and I don't care how bad it sounds Oct 19 12:29:30 Jukka_, verkkokauppa have some cool toys Oct 19 12:29:46 * lcuk saw amazingly cool big tvs Oct 19 12:30:00 yes they do, if I go there I probably end up buying a helicopter etc... Oct 19 12:30:09 * lcuk did last week Oct 19 12:30:09 and forget what I really needed Oct 19 12:30:23 oh, I checked out the stuff I wanted to too :P Oct 19 12:30:36 * lcuk gave each multitouch computer the boobie test Oct 19 12:30:43 only 1 passed :) Oct 19 12:30:51 tell me more :) Oct 19 12:32:08 Jukka_, there are now quite a few different multitouch computers on sale (most running win7 at POS) Oct 19 12:32:28 the technology on the allinones appears to be the same no matter the distributor Oct 19 12:32:42 what I've seen win7 sucks at multitouch Oct 19 12:32:44 I have a 20" Packard Bell allinone here at home Oct 19 12:32:56 though haven't really tried latest ones Oct 19 12:33:06 yeah well thats why I went round looking Oct 19 12:33:22 some kind of allinone would work nicely at home, kids could play and watch stuff from internet Oct 19 12:33:25 to see if 6 months after I found boobie test failures whether any changes had been made Oct 19 12:33:40 Jukka_, yeah, my eldest now has a cool computer Oct 19 12:33:52 so tell me how do I do the boobie test, please Oct 19 12:33:56 hes very impressed with DVR functions and everything it does, but that detracts Oct 19 12:34:00 http://liqbase.net/liq.packard.bell.multitouch.boobies.fail.20100402_003.mp4 Oct 19 12:34:03 see that video Oct 19 12:34:23 if a computer fails the boobie test then multitouch is not working correctly :) Oct 19 12:35:09 (microsoft surface games are geared towards having players on different halves of the screen and fail/glitch when the problem occurs :) Oct 19 12:37:13 oh, that sucks Oct 19 12:37:47 incase you are interested, the one that passed was a HP 12" slate, that as well as having multitouch which seemed to work also had a stylus/pen :) Oct 19 12:38:04 ok, cool Oct 19 12:42:44 lcuk, boobie test doesn't go down too well on an N8 :| Oct 19 12:43:18 :) Oct 19 12:44:57 Jukka_, try this one also Oct 19 12:44:58 http://liqbase.net/liq.packard.bell.confused.multitouch.20100329_006.mp4 Oct 19 12:45:28 (this was the precursor to boobie test, when I had to hold camera with one hand ;) Oct 19 12:49:11 * CosmoHill head bangs his desk Oct 19 12:50:47 lcuk: argh Oct 19 12:51:24 Jukka_, yes I said the same when I realised Oct 19 12:51:33 I almost returned the computer because of it Oct 19 12:51:49 but then I discovered most in that class had same issue Oct 19 12:52:19 so just let my son have it (and now I am best dad in world for giving him an uber computer) Oct 19 12:52:27 :) Oct 19 12:52:53 its the same with most phones aswell Oct 19 12:52:57 running android etc Oct 19 12:58:09 lbt_away, when you get back ping me Oct 19 13:00:10 * lcuk went round a fabric shop yesterday and closed eyes whilst feeling way across the racks of different materials. Oct 19 13:00:26 was wonderful sensation and surprising to see the ones which felt nicest Oct 19 13:07:04 anyone knows anything about meego on Set Top Boxes? Oct 19 13:07:38 Lalloso: ask your question instead of asking for someone Oct 19 13:07:59 I know that MeeGo is supposed to run on STBs. Whether that's enough, we'll know only after you ask your question. Oct 19 13:08:11 well that's my question really Oct 19 13:08:29 i was interesting in what's the state of the art about this Oct 19 13:08:36 since i found very little information on the internet Oct 19 13:08:49 could you point me in the right direction? Oct 19 13:09:18 all i've found is about amino + intel Oct 19 13:10:42 that's the direction Oct 19 13:11:19 I see Oct 19 13:11:46 and how meego would compete against for exemple google tv? Oct 19 13:12:08 what are technological or theoretical advantages/disadvantages? Oct 19 13:12:22 by selling devices Oct 19 13:12:28 Lalloso: real linux :P Oct 19 13:12:39 if your cable TV gives you a MeeGo device and tells you that's what you have to use, why would you go and use something different? Oct 19 13:12:52 Cable providers usually don't let you use other devices on their networks Oct 19 13:13:31 Lalloso, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63743 Oct 19 13:15:11 my VDSL provider gave me a Linux-based router to use on their network. Why would I go and use something different? Oct 19 13:15:17 thiago but why cable providers should choose meego instead of anything else? Oct 19 13:15:33 well, because STB manufacturers choose MeeGo and deliver the device Oct 19 13:15:39 thiago: for example to have better features, performances or freedom Oct 19 13:15:41 because of the app ecosystem (whatever an STB app is) Oct 19 13:16:03 the STB manufacturer could also have the ability to customise the look-and-feel of the box Oct 19 13:16:05 mmm and meego is expected to attract more developers than google tv? Oct 19 13:16:14 we certainly expect to Oct 19 13:16:18 i mean user apps are based on QT developers Oct 19 13:16:27 are there so many of them? Oct 19 13:16:37 put together not just STB, but handset, netbook, IVI Oct 19 13:16:58 one big ecosystem of pure Linux, without Google control and with native apps Oct 19 13:17:12 one big problem with Google TV and Android is Google Oct 19 13:17:42 what do you mean? isn't Android open sourced? Oct 19 13:17:54 it is Oct 19 13:17:56 open source != open control Oct 19 13:18:04 meego isn't also purely community driven as far as i've understood Oct 19 13:18:10 Solaris is open source. But see if anyone has a say in that. Oct 19 13:18:33 companies don't want to depend on Google making all the decisions Oct 19 13:18:44 then port android to linux Oct 19 13:18:55 if they are given a technically-equivalent solution where they have more say, they'll jump on it Oct 19 13:19:12 i guess that when you say companies in this case Oct 19 13:19:19 and individuals Oct 19 13:19:25 you mean hw suppliers Oct 19 13:19:37 well individual developer usually develop for what give them more $$ Oct 19 13:19:46 I mean all of them: ODMs as well as integrators Oct 19 13:20:09 you're thinking of app developers. Yes, that is true there. To get those developers, we need to give them $$ but also better tools, easier tools and more future. Oct 19 13:20:11 i don't understand meego in the end will have to compete with apple store and android market place of if those are completely different models as far as applications are concerned Oct 19 13:20:39 I was thinking of system developers. Most of the people in this channel have no affiliation to Intel or Nokia. They are here because it's something they want to work on. Oct 19 13:20:54 they're not making money by selling apps Oct 19 13:21:08 thiago please don't consider my sentences as an offence, I once played with Nokia 770 with maemo and now have discovered meego I just want to understand what makes it different :) Oct 19 13:21:12 they are influencing the platform, developing it Oct 19 13:21:24 I'm not considering as offence, don't worry Oct 19 13:21:27 ok :) Oct 19 13:21:30 and the 770 is 5 years old... Oct 19 13:21:45 I know but it was fun for that time Oct 19 13:21:52 yeah, I had an N800 Oct 19 13:21:59 still do, it's on my desk right now Oct 19 13:22:21 decoration though. The N900 is in use, and something else. Oct 19 13:22:33 anyway, the point is that meego is trying to be more open than android Oct 19 13:22:45 in terms of licensing? Oct 19 13:22:48 android is open source, but if you want to see where it's going, you need to go talk to google and a closed club Oct 19 13:23:04 no, in terms of control and openness Oct 19 13:23:21 meego is (supposed to be) developed in the open, everyone can see where it's going, anyone can join the development Oct 19 13:23:35 Lalloso: usually the development tree of next-android-version is closed except to the closed club Oct 19 13:23:41 I see Oct 19 13:23:57 and well, if you want to see meego, repo.meego.com and gitorious Oct 19 13:23:58 :P Oct 19 13:24:04 and what is the main difference against linux then? Oct 19 13:24:17 MeeGo *is* LInux Oct 19 13:24:20 Linux Oct 19 13:24:30 is a linux distro like openwrt? Oct 19 13:24:33 yes Oct 19 13:24:43 same model and same middleware as other Linux distributions, from desktops to laptops to servers Oct 19 13:24:57 unlike Android, which is only the Linux kernel, with a completely different middleware Oct 19 13:25:30 and what do you consider the benefits of meego against competing linux distros? Oct 19 13:25:57 I don't consider anything there because it's not competition Oct 19 13:26:10 there aren't many linux distros of relevance going to the markets where meego is going Oct 19 13:26:21 Lalloso: basically desktop and laptop distros are horrible on handsets and other restricted-amount-of-power devices.. Oct 19 13:26:36 another is the UI: it's being specially designed for those form-factors Oct 19 13:26:48 touch-based, OpenGL-accelerated Oct 19 13:27:12 DawnFoster, Ping? Oct 19 13:27:21 DawnFoster, I happened onto a QA team meeting today Oct 19 13:27:55 qa tools Oct 19 13:28:00 I see Oct 19 13:28:02 it's not on the schedule? they meet weeky and announce it and all Oct 19 13:28:09 (at least on irc) Oct 19 13:28:17 therefore it's a matter of rendering and coupling the distro with the hardware Oct 19 13:28:19 DawnFoster, And I had a word about the wiki. timoph, timakima and asinnela have committed to helping improve the situation Oct 19 13:28:33 Lalloso: yes, in the broad sense Oct 19 13:28:54 but the target is still standard hardware like eg x86 or each device will have it's own target like in openwrt? Oct 19 13:30:07 netbooks have standard hw Oct 19 13:30:24 outside of netbooks, it's rather different. Devices usually use SoC packages. Oct 19 13:30:38 even x86-based handsets and STBs are quite different. Oct 19 13:30:41 no BIOS, for starters. Oct 19 13:30:58 ARM-based netbooks, I have no clue what they have. Oct 19 13:31:12 well they boot with uboot Oct 19 13:31:22 the N900 has nolo Oct 19 13:32:00 but I mean will meego have all the drivers for the different SoCs ? Oct 19 13:32:15 that's up to the ODM Oct 19 13:32:22 are the HW suppliers of the SoCs going to develop those kernel module by themselves or? Oct 19 13:32:24 MeeGo has a few reference HW Oct 19 13:32:39 Lalloso: i think the target is stuff like meego-handset-omap3 etc Oct 19 13:32:58 those are what the MeeGo project work on. Right now, it's the N900 (a TI OMAP3430), the Aava device (a Moorestown-based handset), plus standard netbook stuff Oct 19 13:33:10 the ODMs will have to adapt to their hardware where they differ Oct 19 13:33:30 hopefully, those modifications will make their way upstream, so they benefit all MeeGo users Oct 19 13:33:57 mmm I'm trying to understand how all the pieces fit into place Oct 19 13:34:06 on the ARM side, Linaro is working to produce a common baseline, MeeGo benefits from that. Oct 19 13:34:07 are those open hw like arduino? Oct 19 13:34:17 never heard of arduino Oct 19 13:34:41 if you're an ODM or an integrator, you're buying HW from someone Oct 19 13:34:55 either you develop the modifications, or your supplier does for you, or you won't use that HW Oct 19 13:35:14 but that's true also nowadays Oct 19 13:35:21 yes Oct 19 13:35:35 MeeGo will be sure to work with a few representative cases Oct 19 13:35:39 it's the same as with openwrt either i buy a supported target with all the necessary modules already developed somewhere or... Oct 19 13:35:48 plus Linaro's help plus the upstreaming, it should work well in a good variety of devices Oct 19 13:36:22 the MeeGo community cannot force HW makers to upstream their mods Oct 19 13:36:31 thiago: but we sure try ;) Oct 19 13:36:33 yes Oct 19 13:36:43 this is something that ODMs force by not buying that platform Oct 19 13:36:49 and users by not buying those devices Oct 19 13:37:39 suppose you're a handset maker and you want to use MeeGo Handset. You get this nice offer from an ARM supplier, with very low prices on volume. Oct 19 13:38:02 then you want to run MeeGo on it and it doesn't work. Your supplier gives you an incompatible Linux sysroot. Oct 19 13:38:26 you ask your supplier for MeeGo and they say "no" Oct 19 13:38:40 you have two choices: you make MeeGo work ($$ you invest), or you can simply tell them "ok, we'll go talk to TI now" Oct 19 13:38:51 or ST-E Oct 19 13:39:20 I know TI has MeeGo running on OMAP4 (or want to, at least). They're coming to the MeeGo Conference to talk about OMAP4. Oct 19 13:40:08 is meego something comparable to mobilnux montavista? Oct 19 13:40:26 this has happened to Android too. The ARM chip makers have invested development to make Android work on their chips. Oct 19 13:41:48 Lalloso: in a nutshell meego's a standard linux os at core that's optimized for power-saving environments.. on top of that there's a lean and mean qt architecture + qt mobility stack and then on top of that, UX'es suited for various purposes Oct 19 13:41:53 Lalloso: for atom and armv7 Oct 19 13:42:22 so i could go and download the development environment for atom? Oct 19 13:42:57 right - sdk's still in works but it would be qt creator centric Oct 19 13:42:59 app sdk, that is Oct 19 13:43:00 or maybe for the promising CE 4100 Intel? Oct 19 13:43:39 if i've understood well if Intel won't finalize the "middleware development" for such a platform Oct 19 13:43:55 there would be no purpose to use the APP sdk QT based on top of it right? Oct 19 13:44:18 such a platform being STB? Oct 19 13:44:31 or anything else? I mean this is a sort or atom based SOC Oct 19 13:44:40 http://www.intelconsumerelectronics.com/Smart-TV/CE4100-Announcement.aspx Oct 19 13:44:50 don't want to spam, just to provide a real example Oct 19 13:44:58 that likely runs mego Oct 19 13:45:00 meego Oct 19 13:45:29 or can, that is Oct 19 13:46:03 and with the power of qt and so on you can build your own ux too Oct 19 13:46:31 okay Oct 19 13:46:56 and what are then those UX'es already available out of the boxes? a bunch of QT applications? Oct 19 13:47:08 thiago: how did you build KDE on your meego netbook, from source ? Oct 19 13:47:12 or a recompilation of e.g. VLC? Oct 19 13:47:27 Lalloso: IVI is a desktop based upon qt, handset is built upon the meego touch framework (a qt framework) Oct 19 13:48:05 * shadeslayer is looking forward to seeing thiago @ UDS Oct 19 13:48:26 Lalloso: netbook's the exception as that's clutter/mutter and gtk based Oct 19 13:49:24 I'm going to be a bit late from the meetup today Oct 19 13:50:05 I'm almost double booked, but the travel time will make me 5-10 minutes late Oct 19 13:51:56 it'll be interesting to see what happens in TV/setbox space as many of them are already arm/linux based (all sony and samsung ones at least) and getting something like meego there wouldn't be that costly apart from extra flash and memory Oct 19 13:53:08 Stskeeps: concerning CE4100 do you mean that all the drivers and middleware is already available in the meego distribution? or is that something which I can see if I only buy the hw platform? Oct 19 13:53:18 Lalloso: that's a good question Oct 19 13:53:42 Lalloso: i don't know, actually - i know it is for gfx on many devices, that is Oct 19 13:53:46 at least Oct 19 13:54:18 middleware probably would have to be redesigned to be usable with remote Oct 19 13:54:50 oops meant ux Oct 19 13:55:58 Lalloso: i'm personally on the meego ARM side of things, so i don't know much about atom side :) Oct 19 14:00:35 and how does it work on the ARM side? can i buy for example a seagate dockstar and runs meego on it how of the box? or should meego comes from seagate? :) Oct 19 14:01:25 Lalloso: still a developing area but generally what we try to go towards is that we have platform ports, so we would have a base kickstart for meego-handset-armv7l-omap3 Oct 19 14:01:44 and that would include the needed bits for the SoC or you can buy/license additional parts from the soc vendor Oct 19 14:02:38 mmm but after i've bought the additional part from the soc vendor for let's say an FXS port of an access gateway Oct 19 14:02:54 would that driver fall into baseline and will be available for all? Oct 19 14:03:26 well, that's of course up to the soc vendor but i think anything needs to be in upstream.. Oct 19 14:03:36 i think there's many areas of business not explored yet :) Oct 19 14:03:59 djszapi: from source Oct 19 14:04:08 djszapi: I actually built it on my Mandriva workstation then rsync'ed the build Oct 19 14:05:14 Lalloso: Stskeeps re the STB stuff, those intel CE 4100 SoC's are looking impressive Oct 19 14:05:39 I saw a MeeGo powered OTT box at IBC Oct 19 14:06:33 in fact they seem good hw to me but I'm wondering how things are supposed to be Oct 19 14:06:43 if every driver is already developed by Intel Oct 19 14:06:56 but it's not in meego upstream Oct 19 14:07:10 I would face the problem of updates and keeping in sync with latest git Oct 19 14:07:20 as it is today with openwrt and similar hw Oct 19 14:07:41 I'm downloading meego-netbook-ia32-1.0.80.12.20100727.1-sdk-pre0901.raw.tar.bz2 Oct 19 14:07:52 that's an old one Oct 19 14:08:29 hey slaine Oct 19 14:08:31 1.0.99 is the imminent 1.1 release. Oct 19 14:08:37 CosmoHill: hey buddy, how's it going Oct 19 14:08:43 up and down Oct 19 14:08:54 well that's what in the "getting started wiht meego" Oct 19 14:09:11 at the moment I'm doing some alorthigm work for uni which requires a lot of processing power Oct 19 14:16:39 thiago: lawl Oct 19 14:24:49 * lcuk struggles to collate and present multiple sourced digital information into a nice travel report Oct 19 14:25:08 * lcuk seeks automation Oct 19 14:26:25 isn;t there a wish list of meego apps? Oct 19 14:26:26 lcuk <-- needs a secretary Oct 19 14:26:44 RST38h, !!! yes Oct 19 14:27:24 fandeli: Did that new kernel work for you? Oct 19 14:30:40 CosmoHill, theres one app i have wanted to write for a while which would be nice to see, i have all the digital media for it too, but my fingers are tired nowadays Oct 19 14:30:48 wheres the wishlist page and I might start making notes about it Oct 19 14:30:59 on the wiki somewhere Oct 19 14:31:02 ask Myrtti Oct 19 14:47:01 awayfar: yet doing the copying to SD :P Oct 19 14:51:50 awayfar: I had to create new FS again, I had commented some packages for X11 Oct 19 15:57:10 dneary: hi, about your email with concerns on the architecture process: http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7323 Oct 19 15:58:01 qgil, Thanks for the pointer. Oct 19 15:58:42 qgil, In fact, I was talking to Thiago earlier, and he mentioned that the Nokia architects will be visiting Qt this week, and this issue is on the agenda. In fact, that's what set off alarm bells. Oct 19 15:58:48 dneary: one vote is not much but if you can vote... btw I'm not getting more answer than you :) Oct 19 15:59:20 qgil, Still haven't gotten into the hbit of voting for bugs Oct 19 15:59:25 But you have my vote Oct 19 15:59:46 qgil, I'll also point to Thiago's email in the archives as evidence :) Oct 19 16:00:04 Having talked about it with him afterwards, there's no easy solution to the problem either Oct 19 16:00:09 dneary: honestly I don't know what is stopping Arjan, Sakari etc moving to open work - even if keeping all the calls and face to face discussions they have to run faster Oct 19 16:00:24 Xorg 1.10 won't be out until February, which is (IMHO) too late to be included in MeeGo 1.2 Oct 19 16:00:50 dneary: I'm not talking about the Xorg problem (I have nothing to say about architecture decisions) but about the process itself Oct 19 16:01:39 the MeeGo architecture is quite consolidated now and we can avoid the rpm/deb kind of discussions of the first days Oct 19 16:02:59 is there a meego sdk in the repos as a yum package? Oct 19 16:03:03 * thiago hears his name Oct 19 16:03:21 dneary: I meant that the ASF and MeeGo Computers discussion is on the table Oct 19 16:03:35 it has little to do with the external MeeGo work Oct 19 16:04:20 and Sakari has now answered on the X.org thing Oct 19 16:04:59 if we're stuck with X.org 1.9, now I need to figure out if the XInput 2.1 work can be backported Oct 19 16:05:11 ok, i guess it was a stupid question, sorry :) Oct 19 16:05:21 hena: not yet, i think Oct 19 16:06:05 allrighty Oct 19 16:06:39 would like to dev with my meego netbook, i guess i'll make a package out of it too, then Oct 19 16:06:53 thiago, Just saw Sakari's answer Oct 19 16:07:35 That said, I really don't hold out much hope that your "this is a hack, we don't want to maintain it, someone else take care of it" invitation will be accepted by anyone without them being forced to take it on :) Oct 19 16:08:55 someone will have to maintain it Oct 19 16:09:13 we don't want to because we've been asking for a proper, upstream X.org implementation for 2 years now Oct 19 16:15:39 dneary: sakari has probably posted that reply from the Helsinki airport or from Oslo already Oct 19 16:16:06 thiago, :) Oct 19 16:16:27 I understand you don't want to maintain it. But it's code going on devices, and if there are bugs in it, someone will have to fix it Oct 19 16:16:45 I just don't think you're going to see a stream of unpaid volunteers stepping up to the plate Oct 19 16:16:51 that's exactly the problem Oct 19 16:16:56 I know this is going to come back to us Oct 19 16:17:22 I'm trying to get people to move to the proper solution that we will need to support anyway Oct 19 16:18:39 thiago: doesn't this mean there is nothing commercial for at least a year ? so no target platforms, other than hobbyist stuff ? Oct 19 16:19:00 berndhs: no Oct 19 16:19:10 that means we're going to be forced to support the hack for a year Oct 19 16:19:13 commercially Oct 19 16:19:16 ah Oct 19 16:19:32 yuck Oct 19 16:19:42 so from "let's do multi-point touch support for Maemo" to "we have a solution released", it will be close to 3 years Oct 19 16:19:53 forward-porting any "new" or "own" stuff in a year would be just awful Oct 19 16:20:41 add the standard inertia + red tape -> "can't be bothered" -> two years down the line the problem is only magnified :/ Oct 19 16:25:24 Robot101: ping Oct 19 16:42:00 so the rule is that the app is qt, or it wont see daylight? Oct 19 16:44:17 hena: yes Oct 19 16:44:20 :P Oct 19 16:45:53 i think GTK is also supported but don't quote me on that Oct 19 16:46:24 don't count on it being present Oct 19 16:46:29 on handset etc. it won't Oct 19 16:47:11 morn auke Oct 19 16:47:26 sigh... :) Oct 19 16:47:39 of course it makes sense, just really dislike qt :D Oct 19 16:48:00 thiago: pong Oct 19 16:54:15 umm, what's up with the :'s in url/file names? :) Oct 19 16:54:44 cyas Oct 19 16:57:15 auke: will pull 128kb fix from 1.2 in the morning Oct 19 16:58:25 auke: wouldn't be supported on Harmattan? Oct 19 16:58:56 auke: for backward compatilibyt with Gtk apps? Oct 19 16:59:03 legacy of Maemo.. Oct 19 17:00:51 hena: starting with : ? Oct 19 17:01:02 ending Oct 19 17:01:14 hena: ending in : ? Oct 19 17:01:19 * thiago_home has never seen that Oct 19 17:01:20 like download.meego.com/live/devel:/tools:/... Oct 19 17:01:28 * lcuk noticed :s in use in obs and shuddered Oct 19 17:01:28 hena: obs related Oct 19 17:01:34 ah, in OBS Oct 19 17:01:45 thiago_home, they end up on the filesystem though afaik Oct 19 17:02:09 Adrian or Cornelius may have wanted to make it impossible to use on Windows when they designed OBS :-) Oct 19 17:02:13 * lcuk considers colons in filenames like spaces in sql field names ;) Oct 19 17:02:26 yeah, that's quite horrid Oct 19 17:03:06 it seemed like there was alternatives without them, but still Oct 19 17:13:46 sivang: harmattan != meego Oct 19 17:13:52 I now nothing about harmattan Oct 19 18:43:34 I'm trying to build a basic meego touch app using madde Oct 19 18:43:45 I'm getting mmoc not found error, anyone know what's up? Oct 19 18:46:44 Oh, well that worked :D Oct 19 19:07:51 lolwhat Oct 19 19:08:59 who manages the meego netbook kernel? Oct 19 19:44:26 rittk: arjan, why? Oct 19 19:57:18 wasn't there a wikipage listing the logo guidelines, having the logo as svg, and all these cute little colorful people everywhere? Oct 19 19:57:24 sure, sec Oct 19 19:57:40 http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Style_Guide Oct 19 19:58:04 yay, damn it. just when asking after searching for 10min I also found it, grumble Oct 19 19:58:07 thanks anyway :) Oct 19 19:58:17 don't tell me those square midgets are a requirement Oct 19 19:58:47 oh, right, november is coming up.. Oct 19 19:59:08 infobot: style is See http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Style_Guide, a guide about using the MeeGo style in the right way. Oct 19 19:59:08 ...but style is already something else... Oct 19 19:59:53 Stskeeps: Yupp, and as I withdrew my talk withdrawal I now even have to prepare something, but I have an evil idea. ;-) Oct 19 20:00:02 OMG they are a requirement... Oct 19 20:00:47 andre__: 'bugmonkey wanting to be bugmaster', with a monkey and a wizard clipart? Oct 19 20:00:47 :P Oct 19 20:01:25 cliparts! now I got an idea... :-P Oct 19 20:02:33 auke: want to ask related question/help with fine-tuning Oct 19 20:02:43 *wanted Oct 19 20:03:10 ~style Oct 19 20:03:11 it has been said that style is what QT has, see themes Oct 19 20:03:41 infobot: logostyle is See http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Style_Guide, a guide about using the MeeGo style in the right way. Oct 19 20:03:41 okay, auke Oct 19 20:04:07 rittk: anything specific? what fine-tuning do you need? Oct 19 20:11:28 auke: for example, why the Pentium-M is selected as expected processor type while meego supports atom-based processors (afair) Oct 19 20:12:30 that just optimizes the right way for atom/core2 Oct 19 20:13:36 isn't Atom is a better option there? Oct 19 20:13:43 *Intel Atom Oct 19 20:14:11 argh. -is Oct 19 20:14:17 I think they're mostly the same anyway, but sure, perhaps that's better Oct 19 20:14:29 care to send a patch/bugzilla? Oct 19 20:15:33 MR ? Oct 19 20:16:08 MR? Oct 19 20:16:16 merge request Oct 19 20:16:21 patch is probably best for kernel, MR and SR's are routinely rejected Oct 19 20:16:32 SR? Oct 19 20:16:41 either that or bugzilla will work Oct 19 20:16:42 thiago_home: submitreq Oct 19 20:16:50 and to meego-kernel, lists.meego.com has a page for meego-kernel contribution guidelines Oct 19 20:16:57 thiago_home: .. you really need a OBS account one day :) Oct 19 20:17:02 hehe Oct 19 20:17:13 Stskeeps: I wouldn't know what to do with it Oct 19 20:17:31 thiago_home: it's a way to indicate you'd like a package to be sent to a new project, like Trunk:Testing, or patches to a package Oct 19 20:17:45 grour Oct 19 20:18:18 http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-commits/2010-October/date.html , SR#7985 would mean the 'commit' in question Oct 19 20:18:59 give me a link to the meego-kernel contribution guidelines plz Oct 19 20:19:24 auke: who's responsible for Mobility at Intel? Oct 19 20:19:25 rittk: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_kernel_documentation_for_contributors Oct 19 20:20:06 infobot, meego-kernel-contrib is http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_kernel_documentation_for_contributors Oct 19 20:20:06 Stskeeps: okay Oct 19 20:20:39 thiago_home: Mobility? Oct 19 20:20:50 Qt Mobility Oct 19 20:21:00 oh Oct 19 20:21:07 XXI century Oct 19 20:21:14 patches via mailing lists Oct 19 20:21:15 * thiago_home sent an email to hillarie yesterday to get a meeting organised but hasn't got a reply Oct 19 20:21:22 rittk: trying to get that for Qt too Oct 19 20:21:24 thiago_home: talk to kaitlin in #meego-dev Oct 19 20:21:37 depending on what you need she can help I bet Oct 19 20:21:48 thanks Oct 19 20:22:00 * thiago_home sees kaitlin_ here and in #qt too Oct 19 20:22:03 rittk: yeah, finally things are they way they should be Oct 19 20:22:57 well, another one: why debug is turned on as well as some tracers ? Oct 19 20:22:58 I guess I should do something with the videos I shot today at the meetup Oct 19 20:23:04 but I'm so tiiiiired Oct 19 20:23:43 rittk: needed for several tools critical for making MeeGo a success Oct 19 20:24:04 as a temporary solution? Oct 19 20:24:53 brb Oct 19 20:24:57 until we deem it no longer necessary. However it's likely that ftrace will remain enabled in the long run. Oct 19 20:25:54 auke: is sysstat (http://sebastien.godard.pagesperso-orange.fr/features.html ) packaged anywhere? Oct 19 20:26:32 no Oct 19 20:26:41 sysprof we have Oct 19 20:26:51 k Oct 19 20:27:03 which we need to port to arm i seem to recall.. Oct 19 20:27:13 for sar? Oct 19 20:27:30 no, in general, there's a compile error with sysprof Oct 19 20:27:45 bugzilla? Oct 19 20:28:03 none yet Oct 19 20:28:13 hehe Oct 19 20:28:17 i was looking at the problem at some point but not finding any conclusions Oct 19 20:29:02 i think it's a pretty nice thing that we can honestly say there's only 3 packages that FTBFS for arm in meego 1.1 Oct 19 20:29:05 (core) Oct 19 20:29:10 opencv, samba and sysprof Oct 19 20:47:20 auke: I see Oct 19 20:48:39 what about meegotouch contribution model? should I use some mailinglist to contribute to it? Oct 19 20:49:06 rittk: they take MR's i think Oct 19 21:29:11 * niala is surprised that meego does not read ext4 Oct 19 21:35:32 ntfs-3g Oct 19 21:35:38 woops sorry Oct 19 21:44:13 i think there are bugs open for both of them Oct 19 21:44:27 (one day I'll be sure of something) Oct 19 21:46:25 bug on ext4 ? I think is more an option they have forgot in kernel Oct 19 21:47:37 CosmoHill: you can add in your faq the issue about ntfs ext4 . I haven't try reiserfs etc... Oct 19 21:48:16 I'd imagine that isn't there either Oct 19 21:50:28 added Oct 19 21:51:47 that's regratable for external disk Oct 19 21:52:02 regretable? (it's a correct word in english?) Oct 19 21:52:34 that's sad .. Oct 19 21:52:34 I'm not sure Oct 19 21:52:35 regrettable Oct 19 21:52:56 file a bugzilla Oct 19 21:53:13 ok Oct 19 21:53:52 but is not really a bug, only an option and for ntfs-3g maybe somes issues about licenses Oct 19 21:54:03 auke: Oct 19 21:54:10 not for ext4 Oct 19 21:54:43 may be it's me I'm on preview from sunday Oct 19 21:54:49 Got this question: Do you know where I can find a matrix of exact APIs included in Qt Mobility on MeeGo ? Oct 19 22:09:14 qgil: you mean that http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qtmobility-1.1.0-beta2/ ? Oct 19 22:09:51 niala: thanks - if that is what is included in MeeGo then yes Oct 19 22:11:11 is not meegotouch ... I m confused with all meego-version qt and different libs for qt Oct 19 22:15:05 niala: meegotouch has nothing to do here? in the page you linked there is a matrix but doesn't include MeeGo (it does include Harmattan, interesting) Oct 19 22:19:21 qgil: qt-mobility is not everywhere the same? like qt is everywhere the same or any libs Oct 19 22:21:12 niala: see the page you linked :) Qt Mobility is the same, but those APIs might or might not be integrated in the underlying platform - this is why the matrix with different colors is interesting Oct 19 22:51:11 I'm getting more questions about "how MeeGo will avoid the fragmentation problems Android is having?" Oct 19 22:53:13 heh Oct 19 22:53:37 what are they actually worried about? Oct 19 22:54:52 auke: well, with a new version every 6 months and several UX categories, how are ODMs, app developers and users deal with all this? Oct 19 22:56:06 auke: apps in Ovi not found in AppUp or viceversa can also be seen as fragmentation Oct 19 22:56:44 qgil: I think that the problem is a real one, and its not really related to the 6month/multiple-UX part. Its more to do with the fact that ODMs will be doing the last mile of development (to take an analogy from networking...). Oct 19 22:57:01 Ubuntu has 6month/multiple UIs and no fragmentation. Oct 19 22:57:09 auke: I guess the central piece is the Qt / Qt Mobility API and its management across releases Oct 19 22:57:17 Android has a single UI (or two) and has fragmentation Oct 19 22:57:27 csdb: "last mile"? Oct 19 22:58:07 well, if you take Ubuntu (RedHat/etc), everyone already gets the complete set, they only potentially add apps on top Oct 19 22:58:10 csdb: but Android's fragmentation comes from what? big jumps between releases avilable in the market? Oct 19 22:58:45 But with Android/Meego, the ODMs are in charge of the finalized product - they will have added/modified a lot more than just some apps on top Oct 19 22:59:03 enforce that all essential qtmobility-* packages are available on all meego incarnations and that will go a long way Oct 19 22:59:04 new kernel, new drivers, new libs Oct 19 22:59:09 csdb: if they are MeeGo compliance the MeeGo API will be there Oct 19 22:59:44 yes, but that's not to say that the apps they run will be built on that api solely. Isn't that the value add for them ? Oct 19 23:00:20 Its hard for companies to differentiate yet remain the same... Oct 19 23:00:41 csdb: but why you need to come up with own apis to differentiate? Oct 19 23:01:01 I don't think you *need* to, but we both know that people will Oct 19 23:01:02 compatibility lets you escape ;) Oct 19 23:01:08 csdb: besides, it's the interest of MeeGo vendors to have a big catalog of apps Oct 19 23:01:43 jarkkom: so the point is indeed on the Qt API Oct 19 23:01:55 when does meego 1.1 get out? Oct 19 23:02:02 fragmentation is different than compatibility. Afaik most/all Android phones can run most/all Android apps, can't they? Oct 19 23:02:48 were any new APIs introduced with 2.(0|1|2)? Oct 19 23:02:49 csdb: I'm finding out difficult to define what is exactly this "Android fragmentation", tbh Oct 19 23:03:19 mostly os release features and screen resolution I guess Oct 19 23:03:24 I don't know that all vendors will agree with you on the big catalog. Its in their interest to make money. External apps can be seen as helping and/or a hindrance. Oct 19 23:03:40 If they just get support calls but make almost no money -> hindrance. Oct 19 23:03:40 not a big deal if you're a geek like my but for average user it's probably pretty confusing Oct 19 23:03:48 csdb: well, not in the times of iOS and Android Oct 19 23:03:52 If they make money but no support calls -> good :-) Oct 19 23:03:59 Multiple devices running multiple different OS versions Oct 19 23:05:40 I can only guess at Android fragmentation definitions, but one thing you can notice with Android phones is that there is (almost) never an upgrade on HW that is in the field. So app vendors end up having to deal with 6, 7 simultaneous Android versions Oct 19 23:05:46 Xavierdarkness: ok, then easy upgradability for ODMs + "loosing" MeeGo compliance might do it... Still, there will be different version out there - but what real problems does this bring to users' Oct 19 23:06:10 I'd say biggest issue probably will be locationing and maps, that's something that's very vendor speficic but also critical to current crop of apps Oct 19 23:06:18 qgil: my connection's a tad slow, that was in reference to android fragmentation Oct 19 23:06:35 So I think that from app vendors that's a pain. And from users too. Oct 19 23:07:46 "ohh - neat app. But I bought my phone last year. It can no longer run current apps" Oct 19 23:08:01 csdb: It's a pain when it's a pain to have you apps ready for every 6 month release, so binary compatibility is important (but feasible?) and OBS automation should be of big help to app developers? Oct 19 23:08:50 qgil, yes automation helps, but only so much. There's the testing part which is usually the costly one to support multiple versions. Oct 19 23:08:57 separate builds aren't really an issue, it more about major ui paradigm changes changing Oct 19 23:09:19 though this is mostly symbian, not meego issue Oct 19 23:09:47 jarkkom: why not MeeGo user when that developer is dealing with the Hadnset version, the Netbook version, the Tablet version...? Oct 19 23:10:11 qgil, look at: http://developer.android.com/resources/dashboard/platform-versions.html Oct 19 23:10:46 So I think that there 2 aspects to fragmentation: multiple versions (and lack of upgrades to existing phones), and multiple vendors within a version. Oct 19 23:11:07 you have to try to contain both. Oct 19 23:11:53 Apple doesn't have the 2nd problem, and minimizes the 1st IMO by providing platform upgrades to HW in the field. Oct 19 23:12:46 csdb: this might be a commercial incentive for MeeGo vendors offering OS updates to their customers Oct 19 23:12:55 qgil, well I guess most of the time use cases for handsets and netbooks will be bit different and apart from core stuff like browser etc there might not be that much overlap Oct 19 23:13:54 this is just guess but I think future of handset-specific apps would be mostly dealing with location based services Oct 19 23:13:55 qgil, to me that's always been the game-changing thing that Apple did in phones, a lot more than any benefit of their OS. They detached the OS from the HW, to bring their phones to a model kinda like PCs, servers etc... Oct 19 23:14:40 csdb: but again a vendor will go or not ahead with an OS update depending on the cost, and a key part of the cost is defined by the Qt / Qt Mobility APIs Oct 19 23:14:44 all the other phones you get some cool apps that come with them, a few more in the first few months of their existence, and then it goes dry Oct 19 23:15:56 qgil, in an environment like Meego (and Android) the dynamics are different, the HW vendor is interested in pumping out more HW, not providing upgrades to HW that was already sold. So who takes care of that? The network provider? Oct 19 23:16:46 once e.g. Nokia sells a phone, they only see cost in providing upgrades, they have no further revenue stream from it Oct 19 23:17:35 csdb: actually HW vendors know about customer fidelity: they want their customers to buy new hardware, but not from the competitors - so it's not that simple. Oct 19 23:17:54 well that's something nokia wanted to avoid though, though I don't know about what's going on these days Oct 19 23:18:31 being more than just hardware vendor Oct 19 23:18:37 qgil, if their existing phone continues to function, they are not going to buy from anyone :-) I agree that's not a good long term view but it is one that IMO vendors have. Oct 19 23:19:18 When was the last time you saw a phone getting an OS upgrade other than iphones and Nexus One ? Oct 19 23:19:22 the interest of meego is to allow the TV control with his phone or his computer with his phone and that in every way (for me) Oct 19 23:19:28 Only the SW people provide OS upgrades... Oct 19 23:19:54 csdb: lies, lol Oct 19 23:20:11 csdb: if they have the phone on contract they might keep it until the end, or until a rebate is offered - but even if that user is still having that phone, if he is upset and willing to have another one from the competitors in practice it's a lost customer already Oct 19 23:20:14 if people can get a new phone theyll do it Oct 19 23:20:25 csdb, there's no way nokia can do that though, not with their current portfolio of 30+ phones/year :) Oct 19 23:20:36 csdb: also, all of android gets free updates, btw Oct 19 23:21:42 csdb: when was the last time you saw predictable 6 month releases developed openly for ODMs to grab? MeeGo is changuing some things here Oct 19 23:23:05 qgil, yes, if a competitor starts behaving differently then things might change. Competition is only useful if they options look different :-) If all but apple refuse to provide upgradeability (as is mostly the case today) then you're only options are live with it or move to iphone Oct 19 23:24:06 qgil, whoa - I'm not saying there's nothing to Meego. If I thought that I wouldn't bother being in this channel :-) Oct 19 23:24:36 csdb: :) thank you for the discussion Oct 19 23:25:11 jarkkom, agreed. But I sure don't like the fact that the phones I buy start decaying the moment I take them out of the box... Oct 19 23:25:44 qgil, np. opinions are cheap :-) Oct 19 23:26:34 * csdb is waiting for his obs build to finish Oct 19 23:29:19 csdb, they can't solve that so easily though, everyone knows that symbian is just crap but maemo/meego can't run on low/middle end hardware Oct 19 23:29:41 csdb: one element more: having a public roadmap and knowing the baseline months in advance and being able to start testing well ahead of a final release does help ODM organize their plans on OS updates, and even influence them - that can be an advantage for MeeGo over Android Oct 19 23:32:36 jarkkom, if it was easy it would have been solved already :-) But I don't think that at the low there is this expectation of SW longevity, only on the higher end. Oct 19 23:33:03 If I'm going to shell out $400 for a phone, I want it to be useful for more than a few months Oct 19 23:34:21 qgil, I agree that the roadmap is useful - it will hopefully avoid having vendors releasing HW with already-obsolete Meego versions (as happens on Android). As long as you can get the vendors to be interested. Oct 19 23:34:26 csdb: +1 Oct 19 23:35:29 Bottom line is that until both HW vendors and Network providers see this as a problem that needs fixing, it won't be fixed. Because it is costly to fix it (and become more than just a HW pusher/cellphone plan pusher) Oct 19 23:35:43 But if they want a piece of that apple pie... Oct 19 23:37:05 thanks everybody for the discussion - need to digest now :) Oct 19 23:37:09 bye! Oct 19 23:47:30 hi, is the OBS at https://build.meego.com/ open? i.e. can I get an account there? Oct 19 23:47:39 nope Oct 19 23:49:29 what's the status of the community builder? Oct 19 23:50:49 ask lbt_away Oct 19 23:51:14 but, it's being worked on and not ready Oct 19 23:51:41 auke: thanks! Oct 19 23:51:48 lbt_away: any news? Oct 19 23:52:05 ddompe: I haven't seen lbt in a few days now... Oct 19 23:52:12 hi, does anyone know where the "meegite" theme is from? Oct 19 23:53:17 auke, thanks **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Oct 20 02:59:56 2010