**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 11 02:59:57 2010
Nov 11 03:20:26 <Alison_Chaiken> Lots of questions about MeeGo at today's Nokia-sponsored Symbian event.    Seems like a good sign for MeeGo.
Nov 11 03:30:25 <ShadowJK> any good questions or just the old usual?
Nov 11 03:37:46 <berndhs> alison_chaiken: a good sign for MeeGo, or a bad sign for Symbian? perhaps both :)
Nov 11 03:37:51 <Alison_Chaiken> ShadowJK, questions ranged from the usual (When will the N9 ship?) to good ones (How does MeeGo Qt differ from Symbian? Is MeeGo hiring?)
Nov 11 03:38:07 <Termana> morning
Nov 11 03:38:46 <Alison_Chaiken> berndhs, both I would say.    I'm heartened that the developers who showed up for a Symbian event have heard of MeeGo.   A couple of the independent devs I spoke to their had impressive track records.
Nov 11 03:39:38 <chriadam> With the development platform being the same for both platforms (Qt) maybe it's a good thing for both platforms.
Nov 11 05:10:35 <Alison_Chaiken> "Korean Giants Struggle to Crack Smartphone Market": http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/business/global/11iht-sk-phone.html    Remind anyone of other companies?   Hmm, can't think of any.
Nov 11 05:27:52 <ramkrsna> Anyone  here who are right now at the Meego Devel  show hosted by Intel in Pune
Nov 11 06:32:31 <Alison_Chaiken> Nahdaan huomenna y'all.
Nov 11 07:44:13 <wazd> Stskeeps: ping? :)
Nov 11 07:45:40 <Stskeeps> pong
Nov 11 07:46:20 <wazd> Stskeeps: maybe you've beaten me in karmawhoring, but I've beaten you in arrival time to Dublin :D
Nov 11 07:46:41 <Stskeeps> wazd: you have visa sorted out?
Nov 11 07:46:58 <wazd> Stskeeps: I really hope that I'll get it today :D
Nov 11 07:47:18 <wazd> Stskeeps: actually I'm calling them right now
Nov 11 07:47:21 <Stskeeps> wazd: ah - let's group up for cab
Nov 11 07:48:23 <Stskeeps> or something else
Nov 11 07:49:08 <Stskeeps> since we're landing so closely togetherr
Nov 11 07:49:29 <wazd> Stskeeps: yeah, that would be great
Nov 11 07:49:39 <Stskeeps> what hotel are you on? or were you staying with a friend
Nov 11 07:50:01 <wazd> Stskeeps: nope, I'm in D4 ballsbridge inn
Nov 11 07:50:25 <Stskeeps> wazd: ok, same here i think, at least we're going same place :P
Nov 11 07:50:27 <wazd> Stskeeps: staying with Frank Karlitschek :)
Nov 11 07:53:32 <wazd> Stskeeps: maybe we can pick up Andre too :)
Nov 11 07:54:04 <wazd> let's have a "Karma 1000+" prty :D
Nov 11 07:54:14 <Stskeeps> hehe
Nov 11 07:54:27 <Stskeeps> 3 hours waiting at airport sounds bad ;)
Nov 11 07:55:06 <wazd> Stskeeps: oh crap, i'm looking at the departure table :D
Nov 11 07:55:11 <wazd> Stskeeps: sorry :)
Nov 11 07:55:18 <Stskeeps> you don't have me beat in departure, however
Nov 11 07:56:25 <wazd> Stskeeps: 7:20 - you're obviously cheating :D
Nov 11 07:58:05 <Stskeeps> it seems i'll be partying all night with vdvsx :P
Nov 11 07:58:54 <wazd> Stskeeps: well, I have Vlad to wake me up and take to the airport, so sign me in too :D
Nov 11 08:29:39 <Myrtti> sivang: of course I have nice warm slipper boots that are pink
Nov 11 08:30:48 <Myrtti> sivang: http://www.bedroomathletics.com/view/collection/womensslippers/boots/detail/20/ ♥
Nov 11 08:31:56 <lbt> bedroomathletics.... is that sfw ?
Nov 11 08:32:01 <Myrtti> yes
Nov 11 08:32:03 <Myrtti> very
Nov 11 08:32:30 <Myrtti> lbt: by default everything I paste is, I've not managed to shake the Ubuntu Code of Conduct from me yet
Nov 11 08:32:30 <lbt> Waaaat.... you clearly don't work in a male dominated environment...!
Nov 11 08:32:32 <hhurtta> ew, i found that very disturbing!
Nov 11 08:32:43 * lbt closes browser quickly
Nov 11 08:32:44 <Myrtti> lbt: well, you do know where I work at.
Nov 11 08:32:52 <Myrtti> kinda
Nov 11 08:32:52 <lbt> ;)
Nov 11 08:33:18 <lbt> Denise would approve
Nov 11 08:35:08 <Myrtti> my legs get achy when my ankles get too cold, so those slipper boots are a must
Nov 11 08:37:16 <Myrtti> of course the situation is different in the cold hellhole known as "my UK home", where I can't scamper around in t-shirt and pyjama bottoms and slippers, I need to be fully dressed with one normal and one woolly pair of socks and better insulated slippers
Nov 11 08:37:57 <lbt> rofl... whereas helsinki is *sooo* warm
Nov 11 08:38:15 <Stskeeps> generally they appreciate heating in finland
Nov 11 08:39:09 <Myrtti> lbt: timer on a gas boiler that leaves the house cold half of the time and the conservatory making the kitchen cold as a bloody tomb so that I'm afraid that my toes will stick freeze on the floor...
Nov 11 08:39:13 <Myrtti> well... yes.
Nov 11 08:40:01 <Myrtti> apartments in Finland tend to be warm in comparison to UK ;-)
Nov 11 08:40:29 <lbt> :)
Nov 11 08:40:33 <adeus> that reminds me of this http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/11/2000-year-old-roman-multi-tool/
Nov 11 08:40:35 <lbt> anyhoo..... ->
Nov 11 08:40:39 <lbt> bbl8r
Nov 11 08:40:42 <adeus> "they brought with them central heating and civilization, two things that England lacked back then. "
Nov 11 08:40:50 <adeus> laughed at the "back then"
Nov 11 08:41:21 <Myrtti> that is hilarious.
Nov 11 08:42:22 <iekku> in finland there's also only one water pipe, giving hot and cold water, not 2
Nov 11 08:42:30 <adeus> "double glazing" whats that
Nov 11 08:43:16 <RST38h> Moo, all
Nov 11 08:43:23 <Myrtti> adeus: it's the thing that most apartments have, but because the walls are so thin and the Britons are cheapskates with the gas, it makes no difference
Nov 11 08:44:03 * RST38h read adeus' last sentence as "cathedral heating and civilization"
Nov 11 08:44:14 <iekku> hah
Nov 11 09:24:51 <Mat_Matan> hi
Nov 11 09:44:33 <MannyNS> #join #meego-mips
Nov 11 09:45:50 <VivekG> Hello all, what is the support for qt mobility apis on meego handset profile ?
Nov 11 09:47:48 <X-Fade> VivekG: Afaik there is qtm 1.02 in there.
Nov 11 09:49:45 <VivekG> oh great... so any more details about whether all the features of 1.0.2 are available on meego handset profile ?
Nov 11 09:49:49 <Jaffa> Morning, all
Nov 11 09:50:07 <VivekG> @X-fade:
Nov 11 09:50:21 <Stskeeps> morning MannyNS
Nov 11 09:50:53 <X-Fade> VivekG: I don't know the specifics, sorry. Just saw the packages when I imported them in OBS.
Nov 11 09:51:25 <Purti> does anyone know if the latest meego handset image is booting with qemugl ?
Nov 11 09:52:04 <lcuk> VivekG, in general, if version X of something is there, generally all features of version X are available.  whether there are any bugs in those features is a different question.  check bugs.meego.com for any specifics or file new ones if you notice
Nov 11 09:54:41 <VivekG> lcuk: X-fade: hey thank you guys that was very helpful... have a great day..
Nov 11 09:56:17 <timeless_mbp> X-Fade: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/847464
Nov 11 09:56:53 <lcuk> morning folks btw \o
Nov 11 09:58:16 <timeless_mbp> oops, wrong window :)
Nov 11 09:58:43 <slaine> morning folks
Nov 11 09:58:49 <Stskeeps> morn slaine
Nov 11 09:59:00 * slaine does a little stretch
Nov 11 10:02:54 <MannyNS> good morning Stskeeps
Nov 11 10:06:38 <lbt_> Jaffa: when are you arriving ?
Nov 11 10:07:00 <lcuk> http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Conference_2010/Flight_Information
Nov 11 10:07:49 <lbt> thanks lcuk ... been too busy to keep up... I barely know what the schedule is :)
Nov 11 10:08:14 <lcuk> indeed, thats helpful to know when everyone is arriving
Nov 11 10:09:10 <timeless_mbp> oh wow
Nov 11 10:09:15 <timeless_mbp> someone did a nice job on that
Nov 11 10:09:19 <timeless_mbp> now i know when i depart!
Nov 11 10:10:50 <lcuk> more importantly, you know when to get out of bed :P
Nov 11 10:12:19 <timeless_mbp> hrm
Nov 11 10:36:43 <Stskeeps> wb wazd
Nov 11 10:50:47 <wazd> Stskeeps:  visa is still on hold, they requested some additional waste paper
Nov 11 10:50:57 <timeless_mbp> wazd: again?
Nov 11 10:50:59 <Stskeeps> wazd: eep, not good
Nov 11 10:51:15 <wazd> Stskeeps: I suppose I have to donate about 1kg of it to get it :D
Nov 11 10:52:02 <wazd> Stskeeps: but they've sweared to god that they will give it to me tomorrow if I'll send all stuff tody
Nov 11 10:52:19 <wazd> timeless_mbp: don't even ask :D
Nov 11 10:52:38 <Stskeeps> hehe, and tomorrow they'll say 'it got lost in the mail, god doesn't cover postage losses'
Nov 11 10:52:47 <wazd> Stskeeps: e-mail :)
Nov 11 10:52:51 <Stskeeps> ah, better
Nov 11 10:52:54 <wazd> Stskeeps: god covers e-mails :D
Nov 11 10:52:55 <Stskeeps> "our mail server was down"
Nov 11 10:53:38 <wazd> Stskeeps: No.1 question of the month "Why exactly Nokia has chosen you to participate in the conference?"
Nov 11 10:54:06 <Stskeeps> wazd: that's part of the info they'd like to know?
Nov 11 10:54:13 <wazd> I really wanted to have printed facepalm.jpg  with me
Nov 11 10:54:25 <wazd> Stskeeps: yeah, I was surprised too
Nov 11 10:55:22 <wazd> Stskeeps: I even wrote 2 pages descriving community, meego, maemo, open-source, karma-whoring, summits and stuff
Nov 11 10:55:23 <Stskeeps> "I have been involved in the maemo.org community for X amount of years regarding design in open source applications and I have been selected as one out of 64 talks where up to 130 other talks got declined"
Nov 11 10:55:33 <Stskeeps> "including many by nokia employees"
Nov 11 10:55:49 <Stskeeps> heh
Nov 11 10:56:22 <wazd> Stskeeps: btw, printed BlueMaemo UI looks gorgeous :)
Nov 11 11:03:19 <lcuk> wazd, do emails have pages? :P
Nov 11 11:03:49 <lcuk> and you should simply reply "why wouldn't they want me"
Nov 11 11:03:50 <wazd> lcuk: sure, if you have .pdf file attached :)
Nov 11 11:04:34 <wazd> lcuk: I really wanted to reply that :)
Nov 11 11:04:55 <lcuk> he
Nov 11 11:04:56 <wazd> lcuk: "Because they can" :D
Nov 11 11:04:58 <lcuk> h
Nov 11 11:05:41 <lcuk> do you already have flight arranged?  if so, add self to the http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Conference_2010/Flight_Information
Nov 11 11:06:10 <wazd> lcuk: I'm comming right in front of Stskeeps :P
Nov 11 11:06:32 <lcuk> :D excellent
Nov 11 11:06:58 <wazd> and right behind RevdKathy :)
Nov 11 11:07:08 <lcuk> eek, CDG
Nov 11 11:07:15 <wazd> yeah, don't ask :D
Nov 11 11:07:41 <lcuk> i recall having to run at full speed through from one terminal to the other
Nov 11 11:07:44 <wazd> is it really that bad? :)
Nov 11 11:07:46 <lcuk> i nearly passed out
Nov 11 11:07:57 <lcuk> depends on where to where you need to be and how long you have
Nov 11 11:08:03 <lcuk> but its notorious for it
Nov 11 11:08:29 <lcuk> the airport is lovely
Nov 11 11:08:33 <lcuk> it was a bit of a blur tho
Nov 11 11:08:49 <wazd> lcuk: well, I have about 2 houts for the transfer
Nov 11 11:08:54 <wazd> hours*
Nov 11 11:09:18 <dm8tbr> and then your first flight is delayed by 1h50min
Nov 11 11:09:24 <lcuk> haha
Nov 11 11:09:30 <wazd> eek
Nov 11 11:09:30 <dm8tbr> btdt
Nov 11 11:12:56 <wazd> it's so much simplier to travel by train :)
Nov 11 11:13:07 <wazd> check in, get wasted :D
Nov 11 11:14:20 <lcuk> wazd, at least with a plane, when it lands you know its done
Nov 11 11:14:29 <lcuk> on a train its easy to miss your stop and end up in another country :P
Nov 11 11:14:50 <wazd> or Syberia :D
Nov 11 11:15:25 <wazd> so cool to live in Europe I guess, took a nap in a train - ended up in Spain :D
Nov 11 11:18:19 <leinir> wazd: *laughs!* What, seriously?! :)
Nov 11 11:18:29 <lcuk> wazd, easily done lol
Nov 11 11:18:49 <Stskeeps> wazd: take nap in train - get robbed, your clothes taken from you and dropped out a train door, you mean
Nov 11 11:18:52 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 11 11:19:25 <lcuk> Stskeeps, speaking from experience?
Nov 11 11:19:40 <lcuk> or do you have a new set of clothes :P
Nov 11 11:19:41 <wazd> lcuk: he was the robber :D
Nov 11 11:20:44 <wazd> It takes about 7 days to travvel from Moscow to Vladivostok. I think you can marry your roommate after that :D
Nov 11 11:44:37 <dneary> Hi all
Nov 11 11:44:44 <Stskeeps> afternoon
Nov 11 11:44:46 <dneary> Any coders with a few minutes on their hands about?
Nov 11 11:44:53 <Stskeeps> shoot
Nov 11 11:45:02 <dneary> I need a few example programs to show off some features of gdb & valgrind
Nov 11 11:45:15 <Shadikka> Example programs?
Nov 11 11:45:20 <dneary> 1. Getting a stack trace from a core dump
Nov 11 11:45:49 <dneary> 2. An off-by-one error that we're going to fix by setting a watch on a variable
Nov 11 11:46:15 <dneary> 3. An infinite loop that we're going to discover by setting a break point & single stepping through a function
Nov 11 11:46:33 <dneary> All these things should look plausible but the fix should be obvious in the debugger
Nov 11 11:46:45 <dneary> And for Valgrind:
Nov 11 11:47:15 <dneary> 1. A nice memory leak (I have one for this - linked list implementation where the delete node function doesn't free a data pointer in the structure)
Nov 11 11:48:29 <dneary> 2. A nice performance problem (something that works fine, reads its input from a file, and when you put in a file with over 100 lines of input it slows down dramatically - a nice O(n³) algorithm :)
Nov 11 11:51:48 <dneary> Something like: a complex comparison function for different elements of a structure that we read from a CSV, combined with an inefficient sort mechanism & an inappropriate data structure
Nov 11 11:53:01 <dneary> Say, reading address book data (surname, first name, phone number) into a linked list, and sorting it by traversing the list each time, calling the sort function for every comparison.
Nov 11 11:53:42 <dneary> Just something which will show a function that is both called a lot, and takes a lot of time
Nov 11 11:54:40 <dneary> Shadikka, Do you feel up to helping with one of these? https://github.com/dneary/linux-devel-tools-tutorial
Nov 11 11:57:31 <Shadikka> dneary: I cannot at the moment, but I'll try to check on them later today
Nov 11 11:57:32 <RST38h> dneary: Just use Modest.
Nov 11 11:57:42 <dneary> RST38h, Now now
Nov 11 11:57:49 <RST38h> dneary: You should be able to demonstrate all the cases listed above =)
Nov 11 11:57:53 <dneary> I want these for a "using Linux tools" tutorial
Nov 11 11:57:55 <Shadikka> hehe :)
Nov 11 11:58:12 <dneary> So simple, with very straightforward results
Nov 11 11:58:49 <RST38h> dneary: Ok, a Ruby interpreter
Nov 11 11:59:34 <dneary> As in, we want meaningful memory leak results from Valgrind (not false positives a la Debian) and meaningful profiling data from Kcachegrind
Nov 11 11:59:39 <dneary> Or oprofile
Nov 11 11:59:43 <dneary> Or sysprof
Nov 11 12:01:17 <dneary> RST38h, Try to be helpful, please
Nov 11 12:01:31 <rauli> dneary: obviously    char* help_message(void) { char* message = malloc(100); message = "test message!"; return message; }
Nov 11 12:01:46 <RST38h> dneary: I am deadly serious
Nov 11 12:01:56 <dneary> rauli, Nice, I like it
Nov 11 12:02:06 <RST38h> dneary: But ok, let us concoct something awful here
Nov 11 12:02:18 <dneary> RST38h, You may be serious, but you're not being helpful, which is what I'm hoping for
Nov 11 12:02:51 <dneary> I'm not going to have people debug a performance problem in a Ruby interpreter with Kcachegrind in a small part of one 3h tutorial
Nov 11 12:03:10 <RST38h> char **Pigeons[256]; int J; for(J=0;J<256;++J) Pigeons[J]=malloc(J+1);
Nov 11 12:03:40 <RST38h> for(J=0;J<256;J+=2) free(Pigeons[J]);
Nov 11 12:04:02 <dneary> The stuff about GDB I want to show off: analysing cores, getting backtraces, watching variables, setting breakpoints, listing source code, printing variable values, and that is pretty much all she wrote
Nov 11 12:04:16 <dneary> The idea is not to just show the stuff off, it's to apply the tools to a real problem
Nov 11 12:04:17 <RST38h> for(J=0;J<128;++J) memcpy(Pigeons[255-J],Pigeons[J],256);
Nov 11 12:04:22 <RST38h> Done
Nov 11 12:04:52 <RST38h> dneary: Will this example be sufficiently awful?
Nov 11 12:04:55 <dneary> RST38h, Let me figure out what you're getting at...
Nov 11 12:05:29 <RST38h> ok, one more loop:
Nov 11 12:05:30 <dneary> pigeons[0] gets malloced 1 byte
Nov 11 12:05:35 <rauli> RST38h: maybe J<255 or J<=256 on the second line instead of J+=2 (much more common typos)
Nov 11 12:05:38 <wazd> RST38h: I've bought ъъъъ.рф domain :D
Nov 11 12:05:48 <RST38h> for(J=0;J<128;++J) free(Pigeons[J]);
Nov 11 12:05:53 <RST38h> Now you have got real horror
Nov 11 12:06:00 <rauli> :)
Nov 11 12:06:04 <RST38h> rauli: No.
Nov 11 12:06:08 <dneary> Shouldn't it be malloc ((J+1)*sizeeof char *);?
Nov 11 12:06:14 <RST38h> dneary: No.
Nov 11 12:06:33 <lcuk> rauli, eek that looks simple enough to be evil.  however its also a broken example.   { char *msg = strdup("test message"); return msg; }   would have better effect
Nov 11 12:06:46 <dneary> RST38h, I honestly don't see what that is supposed to do, sorry
Nov 11 12:06:49 <RST38h> dneary: remove one * from Pigeons declaration, I erred
Nov 11 12:06:50 <rauli> lcuk: yeah
Nov 11 12:06:59 <RST38h> dneary: ok, a walkthrough then
Nov 11 12:07:13 <RST38h> dneary: first loop will allocate 256 variable size buffers
Nov 11 12:07:20 <dneary> lcuk, You missed the "I'm looking for plausible memory leak bugs for a Valgrind tutorial"?
Nov 11 12:07:28 <lcuk> dneary, yeah
Nov 11 12:07:33 <RST38h> dneary: second loop will free half of them BUT leave pointers in the array (invalid now)
Nov 11 12:07:37 <lcuk> and every time you call that function it will return a newly allocated string
Nov 11 12:07:41 <lcuk> ;)
Nov 11 12:08:04 <RST38h> dneary: third loop will cross copy data between buffers, sometimes writing outside of allocated boundaries OR writing to a freed buffer
Nov 11 12:08:20 <RST38h> dneary: Finally, the fourth loop will try to free some of those buffers for the second time
Nov 11 12:08:36 <RST38h> dneary: Are you sufficiently satisfied with the example? =)
Nov 11 12:09:07 <RST38h> Or maybe we should add another loop after the first free() loopp that will allocate buffers for the second time, corrupting heap and causing memory leaks?
Nov 11 12:09:21 <dneary> RST38h, I mean, it doesn't look plausible - it just looks like you want to write a bunch of data to someplace you can't. I would guess that would segfault at J=0 in the third loop
Nov 11 12:09:41 <dneary> RST38h, So it's not so much a memory leak, as accessing freed memory
Nov 11 12:09:44 <RST38h> dneary: It may, although I can almost bet it will not
Nov 11 12:09:49 <dneary> I guess Valgrind would show it up, though
Nov 11 12:09:55 <villev> dneary: be sure to have some bad memory access examples as well
Nov 11 12:10:04 <RST38h> dneary: Well, if it does not, then it is not a worthy tool
Nov 11 12:10:18 <RST38h> dneary: But the example shows all the common problems
Nov 11 12:10:18 <dneary> villev, Care to come up with one & send me a short code snippet? ;)
Nov 11 12:10:32 <villev> dneary: delete + poke
Nov 11 12:10:34 <lcuk> dneary, shouldnt these be c++/qt?
Nov 11 12:10:50 <RST38h> dneary: 1) freeing stuff twice 2) writing into memory you are not supposed to write, but still in the same data page (so, no core dump) 3) corrupting malloc heap tages
Nov 11 12:10:59 <RST38h> dneary; and with the fifth loop you get 4) memory leaks
Nov 11 12:11:32 <RST38h> But anyways, if you do not like the example, don't use it, I do not care.
Nov 11 12:11:38 <villev> dneary: delete + pokenz
Nov 11 12:11:41 <villev> sry
Nov 11 12:11:59 <villev> RST38h: problem with your example - it looks like a computer science textbook excercise :)
Nov 11 12:12:04 <villev> with C
Nov 11 12:12:12 <villev> people get headache from those
Nov 11 12:12:28 <RST38h> villev: I also suggested using Ruby interpreter but dneary did not like that.
Nov 11 12:12:33 <villev> lol
Nov 11 12:13:00 <dneary> villev, I want a plausible looking program with bugs, rather than a concocted example
Nov 11 12:14:00 <dneary> Lunch
Nov 11 12:15:30 <lcuk> dneary, how many monkeys and keyboards will you have?   i am sure we can point them towards some apps that need bugs fixing :D
Nov 11 12:15:51 <RST38h> lcuk: No, he wants you to write a buggy application specifically for him to pick at :)
Nov 11 12:16:07 * lcuk does not write buggy apps :P
Nov 11 12:22:51 <dneary> lcuk, It's a tutorial - expecting between 10 & 30 attendees, I guess, since it's Saturday afternoon
Nov 11 12:27:59 <Jaffa> lbt: Sorry - was in meeting at 10am. Flight lands at 13:25, so according to the page about 3 hours after you
Nov 11 12:31:10 <lbt> :)
Nov 11 12:32:12 * Jaffa looking forward to some time off work
Nov 11 12:32:25 <lbt> heh ...
Nov 11 12:32:47 <lbt> quite the oposite here
Nov 11 12:33:05 <Stskeeps> i'm just looking forward to some work that's not on the sofa
Nov 11 12:33:31 * lbt is looking forward to seeing MeeGo working
Nov 11 12:33:44 <Stskeeps> should see the n900 talk
Nov 11 12:33:44 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 11 12:34:01 <lbt> I think I might attend
Nov 11 12:34:21 <lbt> keep a seat for me ;)
Nov 11 12:34:23 <Stskeeps> hehe
Nov 11 12:34:43 <lbt> I remember Amsterdam...
Nov 11 12:41:48 <Jaffa> lbt: Some busy talks
Nov 11 12:42:14 * Jaffa looks forward to seeing MeeGo running "in production". Didn't stay on my netbook for long and seeing it in use properly on a netbook and some of the other devices would be cool.
Nov 11 12:42:23 <Jaffa> And to drink beer with new and old friends.
Nov 11 12:42:29 <Jaffa> And a collaborative MWKN hackathon
Nov 11 12:44:15 <RST38h> Especially on "some other devices" =)
Nov 11 12:44:18 <lbt> I think it'll be interesting to see how the community side of MeeGo gets going
Nov 11 12:44:40 <lbt> certainly needs some work
Nov 11 12:44:43 <Stskeeps> i think what this community needs the most is to sit down and have some beers with the people we usually argue with
Nov 11 12:44:46 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 11 12:45:14 <lbt> yep... agreed
Nov 11 12:45:16 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: +1
Nov 11 12:45:36 <RST38h> Stskeeps: Who are the people you usually argue with?
Nov 11 12:45:47 <lbt> pink elephants mostly
Nov 11 12:45:56 <Termana> You guys are just in it for the beers, be honest.
Nov 11 12:45:58 <Termana> :P
Nov 11 12:46:12 <niala> hello hello Dublin'ers
Nov 11 12:47:59 <villev> I think what we should have after meegoconf is some software becoming available
Nov 11 12:48:14 <villev> like, someone announcing they just compiled the whole debian for meego or something
Nov 11 12:48:36 <lbt> well.... we got the OBS finished... but we're low on workers
Nov 11 12:49:01 <villev> lbt: so OBS is go for community to start uploading now?
Nov 11 12:49:06 <lbt> yes
Nov 11 12:49:14 <Stskeeps> even the account import issue?
Nov 11 12:49:14 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 11 12:49:19 <lbt> yes
Nov 11 12:49:24 <Stskeeps> wow, miracles happen
Nov 11 12:49:30 <lbt> I have an account dump from 21 Oct
Nov 11 12:49:34 <Stskeeps> well
Nov 11 12:49:36 <lbt> and now we have hourly syncs
Nov 11 12:49:36 <timoph> lbt: cool. Where do i sign in?
Nov 11 12:49:50 <lbt> ask me tonight ... I can't hit the LDAP right now
Nov 11 12:49:53 <lbt> sorry
Nov 11 12:50:00 <lbt> mmm
Nov 11 12:50:20 <lbt> actually... mail me : david@dgreaves.com ... I won't be online all night
Nov 11 12:50:32 <lbt> just need a meego account name
Nov 11 12:50:43 <timoph> ack
Nov 11 12:50:47 <villev> does it use open id or...?
Nov 11 12:50:54 <lbt> not yet
Nov 11 12:51:03 <lbt> meego.com password -> ldap
Nov 11 12:51:16 <lbt> eventually we'll sort out the openid for meego.com sso
Nov 11 12:51:33 <lbt> and by "we" I mean someone else :)
Nov 11 12:51:50 <Stskeeps> lbt: so right now you need a manual flagging to be allowed in?
Nov 11 12:52:08 <lbt> Stskeeps: yes... and I think we'll keep it that way for a while
Nov 11 12:52:25 <Stskeeps> out of curiousity, why?
Nov 11 12:52:31 <Diablal> Hello, does someone know how to launch an application a the beginning of the session ? thx
Nov 11 12:52:40 <villev> and I guess there is a meeting at dublin to admit select few to the cabal? \-)
Nov 11 12:52:50 <lbt> we're not finished on the deployment and I want to keep an eye on who's asking
Nov 11 12:52:54 <Stskeeps> ok
Nov 11 12:52:55 <lbt> keep the human touch
Nov 11 12:53:15 <tybollt> what is the status of meego now?
Nov 11 12:53:28 <Stskeeps> tybollt: party time, naturally
Nov 11 12:53:30 <Stskeeps> conference in dublin
Nov 11 12:53:31 <Stskeeps> ;)
Nov 11 12:53:32 <timoph> :)
Nov 11 12:53:33 <lbt> also we don't have much in the way of monitoring yet
Nov 11 12:53:36 <tybollt> all the big graphics issues been sorted yet (as in, are the fixes in snaps?)
Nov 11 12:54:04 <tybollt> Stskeeps: I see a lot of "beer" in scrollback so no wonder there :)
Nov 11 12:54:29 <maitrey_> mikhailz, are you the maintainer of qtcontacts in meego?
Nov 11 12:56:14 <Diablal> Sorry for insisting but nobody knows how to start an app automatically ?
Nov 11 12:58:48 <sivang> tybollt: I hope beer is going to be a big part of ti
Nov 11 12:59:06 * sivang should email the lists for participant of his talk to get some beer before.
Nov 11 12:59:10 <tybollt> is beer going to be a big part of the latest snapshot?
Nov 11 12:59:24 <mikhailz> maitrey_: not really. Do you mean the Qt Mobility API component, or the Tracker backend?
Nov 11 12:59:25 <tybollt> or is beer a big part in fixing the graphics issues in the latest snapshots?
Nov 11 12:59:34 <maitrey_> tracker bakend
Nov 11 12:59:37 <maitrey_> *backend
Nov 11 13:00:18 <mikhailz> maitrey_: so, qtcontacts-tracker. What's up with it?
Nov 11 13:00:34 <alterego> How much will the Nokia Qt cert be at the conference next week.
Nov 11 13:00:51 <alterego> Hrm, that was a question ^.^
Nov 11 13:03:21 <maitrey_> I updated tracker to 0.9.26. And we got  new bug in meego : 9873
Nov 11 13:03:28 <maitrey_> http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9873
Nov 11 13:03:33 <maitrey_> mikhailz, ^^
Nov 11 13:04:09 <sivang> I think I've seen something about it, but do we have a python policy?
Nov 11 13:04:13 <lbt> alterego: ask thiago
Nov 11 13:04:21 <sivang> and an official python build for meego?
Nov 11 13:04:30 <lbt> there's no official build
Nov 11 13:04:33 <lbt> it's not in core
Nov 11 13:04:34 <sivang> that said, if I have a package that uses python-support from debian- what do I do?
Nov 11 13:04:52 <mikhailz> maitrey_: is it not fixed as bug 9676?
Nov 11 13:04:55 <_MeeGoBot_> Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9676 is not accessible
Nov 11 13:06:29 <maitrey_> Anyways mikhailz adrien bustany said he will update qtcontacts-tracker.
Nov 11 13:07:08 <mikhailz> good
Nov 11 13:10:37 <sivang> ah , private bug
Nov 11 13:11:01 <sivang> bug 9873
Nov 11 13:11:04 <_MeeGoBot_> Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9873 is not accessible
Nov 11 13:13:12 <lcuk> sivang, file a bug then :)
Nov 11 13:14:26 <sivang> lcuk: hehe
Nov 11 13:15:21 <lcuk> sivang, theres a ML thread about it on -dev
Nov 11 13:15:31 <lcuk> but it might actually be better as a bug report
Nov 11 13:15:39 <lcuk> then the closed bugs can be linked together?
Nov 11 13:17:15 <sivang> lcuk: hae a link to the -dev thread?
Nov 11 13:18:05 <lcuk> sure sivang http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.meego.devel/6471
Nov 11 13:21:00 <sivang> odd that a bug in the acceptance of the public meego buid is private, or does it make sense?
Nov 11 13:21:03 <sivang> lcuk: ^
Nov 11 13:21:23 <lcuk> sivang, that was why i queried it.
Nov 11 13:21:32 <Stskeeps> sivang: there's a bad policy atm where some bugs gets accidentially closed
Nov 11 13:21:37 <sivang> lcuk: and you did not create a bug report? do we have a list of all the private ones?
Nov 11 13:21:38 <lcuk> i can understand the rational behind having them
Nov 11 13:21:45 <lcuk> but that specific case did not make sense
Nov 11 13:21:58 <sivang> lcuk: sure, but not if they are on a public build acceptance test no?
Nov 11 13:23:02 <lcuk> sivang, meego.com is public and built using public components, it does not make sense that private bugs should be getting in the way at this stage.
Nov 11 13:23:08 <sivang> lcuk: unles the bug report contians vendor specific data, but it should not I guess if it is the meego public and not vendor build
Nov 11 13:23:30 <sivang> lcuk: isn't quim already taking care of the openness bugs? :)
Nov 11 13:23:56 <sivang> lcuk: maybe we just need to add this to his long bug trail about openness
Nov 11 13:24:23 <lcuk> sivang, sure, i just made a remark on the ml :)
Nov 11 13:25:11 <sivang> lcuk: k, good. I don't have I'll have time to note this in that bug trail, if I do find some spare minutes I'll try to add this there.
Nov 11 13:25:50 <lcuk> \o
Nov 11 13:41:42 <sivang> lcuk: actually, Idid not want to let it off my hands before dealing with it - http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4898
Nov 11 13:42:36 <sivang> andre: oops sorry, can you please move it to 9943 for me? :)
Nov 11 13:43:22 <andre> andre__: ^ ?
Nov 11 13:47:45 <andre__> sivang, move what?
Nov 11 13:55:12 <CosmoHill> hey ali1234
Nov 11 13:55:22 <ali1234> hi :)
Nov 11 14:09:29 <blafasel> Hi. I am confused about the sensors support (accelerometer, ...) in Meego. There is the sensor portion of Qt Mobility and there is meego-middleware-sensorfw. I am wondering why sensorfw does not use Qt Mobility internally.
Nov 11 14:11:24 <pupnik> blafasel: qt just recently got support for sensors
Nov 11 14:11:44 <lcuk> blafasel, potentially historical parallel class creation and will be ironed out in the wash
Nov 11 14:14:44 <blafasel> lcuk: Ironed out in the wash in which sense? Qt Mobility sensor parts will not be part of Meego? What about pure Qt application and systems where you don't want sensord?
Nov 11 14:15:13 <ali1234> Qt mobility is supposed to get rolled into Qt eventually anyway
Nov 11 14:17:32 <blafasel> ali1234: That means inside of Nokia two sensor APIs will be developed. The MeeGo one with sensord and the Qt one from the mobility parts, which might run on other platforms using Qt as well.
Nov 11 14:23:16 <Ronksu> blafasel: Qt Mobility uses sensorfw as the source of data on meego. (http://conference2010.meego.com/session/sensor-framework-walkthrough)
Nov 11 14:30:11 <blafasel> Ronksu: Thanks for the hint. But there is no sensor plugin for Qt Mobility yet that uses sensorfw, right? (I just looked at the Git tree as of today, but want to cross-check) I just see generic, dummy, maemo6, n900, s60_sensor_api, simulator and symbian.
Nov 11 14:39:08 <Ronksu> blafasel: maemo6 uses sensorfw.
Nov 11 15:13:35 <blafasel> Ronksu: Thanks! Now I got it.
Nov 11 15:46:47 <sivang> andre__: regarding private bugs reported on the meta bug
Nov 11 15:48:27 <andre__> sivang, and move what?
Nov 11 16:50:43 <CosmoHill> specing up macs are depressing
Nov 11 16:51:04 <CosmoHill> s/are/is/
Nov 11 16:51:04 <infobot> CosmoHill meant: specing up macs is depressing
Nov 11 17:03:08 <sivang> andre__: move them to the bug about private bugs, you stated on the meta bug that it'd be best to keep them somewhere sle?
Nov 11 17:03:28 <andre__> comments cannot be "moved" and I'm not an admin
Nov 11 17:03:48 <andre__> admins could hide your comment that is about hiding bug reports if you wanted though :-P
Nov 11 17:04:03 <andre__> feel free to add your comment to the other bug
Nov 11 17:04:32 * lcuk giggles
Nov 11 17:06:00 <sivang> adeus: ijat :)
Nov 11 17:06:02 <sivang> luck: ?
Nov 11 17:06:07 <sivang> oops
Nov 11 17:06:10 <sivang> andre__: :)
Nov 11 17:07:54 <g00fy> hi there
Nov 11 17:08:03 <g00fy> any1 got some help 4 me?
Nov 11 17:08:06 <g00fy> plz
Nov 11 17:08:56 <g00fy> i'm currently sittin at a tcom hotspot, unable to access any pages... wifi is connected, but the browser won't load the page
Nov 11 17:09:02 <g00fy> any suggestions???
Nov 11 17:09:43 <slonopotamus> g00fy: ping 8.8.4.4
Nov 11 17:10:10 <g00fy> gonna try this... brb
Nov 11 17:10:21 <g00fy> first have to switch back 2 wifi connection  ^^
Nov 11 17:10:28 <slonopotamus> :/
Nov 11 17:11:50 <skibur> so is meego a go for the n800.
Nov 11 17:12:19 <slonopotamus> nope
Nov 11 17:12:37 <skibur> ok
Nov 11 17:12:51 <slonopotamus> meego doesn't work with n8x0 kernel (afaik) and n8x0 cannot charge with meego kernel
Nov 11 17:13:58 <g00fy> re
Nov 11 17:14:04 <CosmoHill> er
Nov 11 17:14:38 <g00fy> tried to ping 8.8.4.4
Nov 11 17:14:39 <g00fy> no respond
Nov 11 17:14:54 <g00fy> but I'm able to ping the start page of the hotspot
Nov 11 17:15:14 <g00fy> chromium reports "Establishing secure connection..."
Nov 11 17:15:17 <slonopotamus> g00fy: maybe you need to pay it some bucks? :)
Nov 11 17:15:24 <g00fy> lol
Nov 11 17:15:37 <g00fy> before paying i have to access the start page  xD
Nov 11 17:15:53 <g00fy> but after some time of waiting i only get a timeout message  -__-
Nov 11 17:16:20 <g00fy> it was already quite annoying to reactivate the wifi ability of my netbook  (eeepc 1000h
Nov 11 17:17:16 <pupnik> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVAwoFZKUSQ  what do you think of my 'happy happy' song - written in 1997 or so
Nov 11 17:24:06 <g00fy> no ideas?
Nov 11 17:24:09 <g00fy> o_O
Nov 11 17:28:35 <DawnFoster> I'm working on my State of the MeeGo community presentation for the conference - what do you guys think are the biggest issues in the community right now?
Nov 11 17:29:37 <DawnFoster> seriously, no one has an opinion :)
Nov 11 17:29:54 <Chani> DawnFoster: I haven't figured out where the community is yet :)
Nov 11 17:30:05 <RST38h> How many peoplewho are not employees of Intel or Nokia are in the community?
Nov 11 17:30:07 <Chani> but I'm sure it needs more hugs.
Nov 11 17:30:13 <leinir> DawnFoster: Employees in various companies who don't have a "hang in #meego" clause in their employment contract ;9
Nov 11 17:30:19 <Chani> everyone needs more hugs. :)
Nov 11 17:30:24 <leinir> Chani: Yup! :)
Nov 11 17:30:40 <DawnFoster> well, we have the conference coming up - hugs in person :)
Nov 11 17:30:45 <Chani> yay! :)
Nov 11 17:30:45 <leinir> Indeed :)
Nov 11 17:30:50 <javispedro> hug unconference!
Nov 11 17:30:55 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: information flow
Nov 11 17:30:56 <Chani> oh frack, still need to print my boarding passes
Nov 11 17:31:05 <Alison_Chaiken> Here in the SF Bay Area, companies besides Intel and Nokia are starting to hire for MeeGo.  For example, Nvidia and Wind River.
Nov 11 17:31:08 <javispedro> sivang: there?
Nov 11 17:31:15 <leinir> javispedro: i approve of this! Time to get some MeeGo styled Free Hugs t-shirts made up ;)
Nov 11 17:31:15 <Chani> remind me not to use ryanair any more :P they were okay before this $40 printing BS
Nov 11 17:31:28 <RST38h> WindRiver is a part of Intel
Nov 11 17:31:37 <Stskeeps> Alison_Chaiken: nvidia? thats curious
Nov 11 17:31:42 <Stskeeps> url?
Nov 11 17:31:49 <ShadowJK> $40 printing bs? is that when you check in at airport instead of online?
Nov 11 17:32:00 <Alison_Chaiken> Ah, RST38h, you're right about Wind River, I forgot.
Nov 11 17:32:01 <Chani> d'you guys think there'll be a printer available at the conf, for printing my return boarding pass?
Nov 11 17:32:25 <Alison_Chaiken> Stskeeps, Nvidia has plans regarding IVI.   My info comes from Nvidia employees.
Nov 11 17:32:25 <Chani> ShadowJK: yep. if you check in online and can't get to a printter, they charge 40 euros
Nov 11 17:32:27 <lcuk> Chani, yes
Nov 11 17:32:33 <lcuk> but only from meego devices :P
Nov 11 17:32:43 * Chani even saw it happen to some poor girl at the airport last time I flew :/
Nov 11 17:32:48 <lcuk> in reality i dont know
Nov 11 17:32:53 <CosmoHill> would the dell mini 10 run meego?
Nov 11 17:33:06 <RST38h> Cosmo:If you make it, it will
Nov 11 17:33:10 <ShadowJK> I usually check in for both ways a week before flight leaves (printing out stuff too)
Nov 11 17:33:29 <wmarone> Alison_Chaiken: any idea if nvidia is gonna play nice?
Nov 11 17:33:31 * Chani has been waffling on whether to buy a checked bag
Nov 11 17:34:00 <ShadowJK> as nice as "TI" probably
Nov 11 17:34:26 <Stskeeps> ti's playing extremely nice
Nov 11 17:34:33 <Alison_Chaiken> wmarone, Nvidia has a consistent track record of working well with their partners.   They are good at listening and don't want to compete with their suppliers.   Whether they are going to be upstreaming source code, we'll see!
Nov 11 17:34:41 <DawnFoster> I'm still working on gathering that list of community issues for my presentation :)
Nov 11 17:34:48 <DawnFoster> some things I have now ...
Nov 11 17:34:51 <CosmoHill> hey Alison_Chaiken and DawnFoster
Nov 11 17:34:55 <DawnFoster> Openness & information flow
Nov 11 17:34:58 <Alison_Chaiken> Hey CosmoHill.
Nov 11 17:35:01 <DawnFoster> Difficult for people outside of Intel / Nokia to get involved
Nov 11 17:35:12 <RST38h> DawnFoster: You can consider my revious question an issue :)
Nov 11 17:35:16 <DawnFoster> Hard to make progress with few devices in the market
Nov 11 17:35:33 <DawnFoster> RST38h: I summarized that one as "Difficult for people outside of Intel / Nokia to get involved" fair?
Nov 11 17:35:36 <RST38h> DawnFoster: Not just difficult, but also not enough incentives to get involved
Nov 11 17:35:46 <DawnFoster> Need to get application developers interested
Nov 11 17:35:51 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: i think process documentation is important too
Nov 11 17:36:10 <Stskeeps> cant understand what is going on without knowing how the process works
Nov 11 17:36:32 <ShadowJK> re nvidia, their Tegra has no neon, and then people that do have Neon cpus probably would want to actually use Neon to boost performance, i just wonder how realistic it's to have a single arm arch is :/
Nov 11 17:37:07 <DawnFoster> RST38h: how about "People outside of Intel / Nokia need better ways to get involved and more incentives"
Nov 11 17:37:10 <javispedro> there's going to be two now, doesn't it?
Nov 11 17:37:12 <Alison_Chaiken> DawnFoster, my personal frustration has been an inability to get bootloaders to run the various MeeGo spins (handset, IVI) under the qemu emulator.    Other developers who are interested in trying code on IVI, for example, may give up and turn away.    The barrier to entry is too high even if there are workarounds for all the problems.    At the very least, we need better docs on how to use these images.
Nov 11 17:37:12 <javispedro> (re arm arches)
Nov 11 17:37:15 <javispedro> softfp and hardfp
Nov 11 17:37:19 <DawnFoster> RST38h: suggestions for other incentives?
Nov 11 17:37:23 <javispedro> softfp could get its requeriments lowered
Nov 11 17:37:33 <DawnFoster> Stskeeps: any specific suggestions on process docs?
Nov 11 17:38:13 <RST38h> DawnFoster: Afraid, I am a bit pessimistic at this point: can'texpect application people to get interested until there are actual devices
Nov 11 17:39:00 <RST38h> DawnFoster: How about putting more emphasis on IVI? There should be enough Atom-based car PCs on the market right nowto justify IVI porting
Nov 11 17:39:06 <CosmoHill> I think the latest mini 10 (1018) can run meego, it's £270 GBP with 3 year warranty and case (student discount)
Nov 11 17:39:28 <DawnFoster> Alison_Chaiken: something like this - "Need a much better experience for application developers and make our SDK easier to use" ?
Nov 11 17:39:50 * javispedro wishes sivang was here
Nov 11 17:39:59 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: requirements process, qa process (and involvement).. hmm.. well, and program office process
Nov 11 17:40:20 <RST38h> DawnFoster: Oh, wait, you need application SDK to be portable AT LEAST between Linux distros
Nov 11 17:40:25 <wmarone> CosmoHill: I think the primary concern at this point is ARM-based handset/tablet hardware
Nov 11 17:40:33 <RST38h> The topic cameup a while ago
Nov 11 17:40:37 <DawnFoster> Stskeeps: oh, you mean the processes that don't exist yet that need better documentation :)
Nov 11 17:40:41 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: a lot of meego process is documented a fair bit, of course
Nov 11 17:40:47 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: exactly ;)
Nov 11 17:40:57 <wmarone> x86-64 bit support too
Nov 11 17:41:33 <Stskeeps> difficult to tell difference between no process and undocumented process
Nov 11 17:41:43 <DawnFoster> Stskeeps: exactly.
Nov 11 17:41:45 <RST38h> DawnFoster: I.e. if I am using Ubuntu on my development machine, I should still be able to install and use application SDK
Nov 11 17:42:07 <Stskeeps> documented process allows 'outsiders' to participate, i guess
Nov 11 17:42:23 <DawnFoster> RST38h: yeah, the SDK still needs a lot of work - release yesterday is a step in the right direction, but lots of work left
Nov 11 17:42:53 <Alison_Chaiken> DawnFoster, "Make SDK more accessible to developers who don't possess a complete suite of devices." Or sump'n like that.
Nov 11 17:44:22 <DawnFoster> Alison_Chaiken:  better, thanks!
Nov 11 17:44:53 <lcuk> can anybody name their favourite outstanding feature on their little bit of meego?  which part are you proud of making and that you put energy towards adding awesome into?
Nov 11 17:44:55 <DawnFoster> I also have something about the difficulties in merging the maemo & meego communities - different audiences, etc.
Nov 11 17:45:26 <townxelliot> Alison_Chaiken: have you filed bugs for the issues you're having (either against SDK or docs)? the SDK docs for 1.1 have been working well for me, providing I stick to the MADDE runtimes
Nov 11 17:46:28 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: Is it clear who the community is *intended* to be? There were lots of discussions a few months ago that your average maemo.org power user with a device in their hand would be better served somewhere other than meego.com
Nov 11 17:46:58 <CosmoHill> wmarone: I currently don't have a computer that can run meego
Nov 11 17:47:09 <DawnFoster> Jaffa: I think we've always said that the power users would be a good fit for meego.com
Nov 11 17:47:13 <CosmoHill> I can run meego core at level 3 on any pc I own tho :)
Nov 11 17:47:22 <javispedro> level 3?
Nov 11 17:47:29 <CosmoHill> init level
Nov 11 17:47:33 <DawnFoster> average joe user wanting support for a specific device should probably go to the manufacturer for support
Nov 11 17:47:34 <RST38h> Jaffa: I think this first requires some analysis of who current maemo.org members are
Nov 11 17:47:34 <javispedro> aa
Nov 11 17:47:46 <RST38h> Jaffa: Things...changed over the last year or two
Nov 11 17:47:48 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: Hmm, I'm sure I remember suggestions that people would go to a "Nokia" community site, for example.
Nov 11 17:47:51 <DawnFoster> we just don't want meego.com to provide basic user support for hundreds of devices
Nov 11 17:47:53 <CosmoHill> for example I used meego on a P4 to do some work :)
Nov 11 17:48:05 <Jaffa> RST38h: True
Nov 11 17:48:14 <DawnFoster> Jaffa: for joe user needing support on device
Nov 11 17:48:20 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: So discussions about vendor-specific UIs or APIs are on-topic for meego.com?
Nov 11 17:48:47 <lcuk> CosmoHill, would matlab style apps work on a little netbook?  people like lardman always have a use for a big calculator
Nov 11 17:49:00 <RST38h> Jaffa,DawnFoster: Why not carefully analyze the groups of people frequenting maemo.org and try to provide something useful for each group?Not necessarily via www.meego.com of course
Nov 11 17:49:04 <CosmoHill> I've never used matlab, the students the year after us did tho
Nov 11 17:49:06 <lcuk> are there any geared towards touch?
Nov 11 17:49:19 <RST38h> You know, you can have subdomains, like users.meego.com :)
Nov 11 17:49:21 <lcuk> playing with equations and warping them :D
Nov 11 17:50:19 <DawnFoster> Jaffa: obviously that's a huge topic :)
Nov 11 17:50:21 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: There also seems to be a feeling that the TSG aren't prepared for TSG meetings, that's a community issue
Nov 11 17:51:18 <lcuk> jaffa i think thats just like some people dont know how to handle telco meetings
Nov 11 17:51:42 <Alison_Chaiken> townxelliot, I don't believe that the difficulties I'm referring to are bugs.   For example, the fact that you need an IMEI to download the bootloader that you need to build a handset image is vexing to me, but is not a bug!   Use of the IVI image presents similar problems.   As we extend MeeGo to more and more devices, we want independent developers to be able to easily test their code on *all* the devices and we can't expec
Nov 11 17:51:42 <Alison_Chaiken> t them to own all of them.    Since bootloaders, etc. can be proprietary, I understand why the problem can be difficult.
Nov 11 17:53:55 <Jaffa> lcuk: Which "people" are you describing there? If it's the TSG, it's still a problem; if you're suggesting it's only a *perceived* problem, we can explore that ;-)
Nov 11 17:54:17 <CosmoHill> oh crap, was there a TSG meeting yesterday that I missed?
Nov 11 17:54:29 <lcuk> jaffa i think its a bit of both, you only grow more comfortable in an environment as you use it
Nov 11 17:54:46 <lcuk> its just as daunting to some people to handle a room of 20 devs as it is to stand infront of hundreds
Nov 11 17:55:01 <ShadowJK> It's kinda hard to define joe user, I don't think anyone has a clear grip on it. we have fairly basic joe users on talk.maemo.org needing help with pretty advanced and complicated stuff. wifi tethering, reverse role bt dun/pan, and getting their bluetooth keyboards working comes to mind :-) It's partly a disconnect between user expectations and what users want to do, and what's easily supported out of box
Nov 11 17:55:03 <lcuk> s/room/irc chan/
Nov 11 17:55:03 <infobot> lcuk meant: its just as daunting to some people to handle a irc chan of 20 devs as it is to stand infront of hundreds
Nov 11 17:55:31 <RST38h> ShadowJK: You can break users into groups, still
Nov 11 17:56:25 <RST38h> ShadowJK: like 1) linux core hackers 2) application developers 3) maemo/meego power users with linux experience 4) smartphone powerusers (generally with android/symbian/ios experience)
Nov 11 17:56:32 <RST38h> and 5) complete newbees
Nov 11 17:56:49 <RST38h> Notice the difference between 3 and 4
Nov 11 17:57:08 <RST38h> #3 generally treat their device as a tablet or a computer and constantly say that "it is not a phone"
Nov 11 17:57:26 <CosmoHill> lcuk: there was someone who game in here, said the channel was bigger than he expected then left
Nov 11 17:57:30 <RST38h> #4 are folks who usually come from some other smartphone forums, after buying a maemo/meego device
Nov 11 17:57:39 <ShadowJK> so in my example there was group 5 needing help with getting custom kernel + modules and a few scripts installed ;)
Nov 11 17:57:41 * javispedro tries to classify itself in RST38h's breakdown
Nov 11 17:57:54 <RST38h> ShadowJK: Actually, they do not
Nov 11 17:58:04 <RST38h> javispedro: #2->#1.
Nov 11 17:58:18 <RST38h> ShadowJK: They need to be told NOT TO
Nov 11 17:58:20 <CosmoHill> I'd be 1 or 3
Nov 11 17:58:31 * smithna doens't fit RST38h breakdown
Nov 11 17:58:40 <wmarone> RST38h: told not to what, install a custom kernel?
Nov 11 17:58:48 <lcuk> RST38h, where do visual basic developers sit?  *grin*
Nov 11 17:58:49 <RST38h> wmarone: Yes.
Nov 11 17:58:51 <CosmoHill> RST38h: 5: Hello, I can't find the start button
Nov 11 17:59:05 <RST38h> wmarone: It usually ends up in a brick, and YOU will be balmed for it.
Nov 11 17:59:12 <CosmoHill> lcuk: outside in the cold and rain?
Nov 11 17:59:18 <lcuk> :D
Nov 11 17:59:24 <RST38h> Cosmo: BTW, if you let them just talk to each other in some forum, they can help each other just fine
Nov 11 17:59:24 <wmarone> RST38h: well you could just do the motorola thing and lock it down, but I have no respect for vendors that act like that
Nov 11 17:59:28 * CosmoHill hides his VS2010
Nov 11 17:59:38 <RST38h> wmarone:No, no
Nov 11 17:59:47 <RST38h> wmarone: This is not a policy thing. This is a social thing.
Nov 11 18:00:01 <wmarone> they're going to do it no matter what
Nov 11 18:00:03 <ShadowJK> wmarone, sure, then we need a forum for unlocking/rooting instructions :D
Nov 11 18:00:04 <CosmoHill> I've noticed that in my channel, the ones that are a little bit ahead help the others a little behind
Nov 11 18:00:09 <wmarone> whether following you, or someone else
Nov 11 18:00:12 <RST38h> wmarone: Let us say, I drop by the car shop and ask mechanics to QUICKLY show me how to replace engine in my Honda
Nov 11 18:00:17 <RST38h> wmarone: Guess their response.
Nov 11 18:00:42 <CosmoHill> "this is a bmw dealership"
Nov 11 18:00:42 <lcuk> RST38h, they will offer you a quote.
Nov 11 18:00:51 <sofar> "Here's the address of the school I went to"
Nov 11 18:01:04 <RST38h> lcuk: Good
Nov 11 18:01:19 <RST38h> lcuk: Then I will offer the first newbee asking me about kernel replacement a quote.
Nov 11 18:01:26 <javispedro> or a hammer.
Nov 11 18:01:36 <lcuk> indeed RST38h
Nov 11 18:01:41 <RST38h> javispedro: You *offer* a quote, but you *apply* a hammer =)
Nov 11 18:01:50 <ShadowJK> they dont ask for kernel replacement, of course, they ask for "tethering" :)
Nov 11 18:01:51 <wmarone> perhaps a "so you want to replace your kernel..." page is in order
Nov 11 18:01:53 <javispedro> actually, I'd tell the user. And not warn them about getting gas out of the car first.
Nov 11 18:01:58 <merge> hi! unconvential question here: Is is possible to buy MeeGo t-shirts anywhere? thanks! :)
Nov 11 18:02:01 <RST38h> ShadowJK: "Here is a wiki page, follow it"
Nov 11 18:02:03 <arjan> few people want to really replace their kernel
Nov 11 18:02:08 <arjan> they just want to add stuff on top :)
Nov 11 18:02:15 <Jaffa> arjan: You've not read talk.maemo.org, have you?
Nov 11 18:02:17 <ShadowJK> or ask "my keyboard doesn't work"
Nov 11 18:02:24 <javispedro> the "red pill" syndrome
Nov 11 18:02:26 <wmarone> arjan: sure, but there's legions of people doing it on the N900 who really shouldn't be
Nov 11 18:02:27 <RST38h> arjan: You obviously have not been following Maemo :)
Nov 11 18:02:28 <Jaffa> arjan: USB hostmode, overclocking, ...
Nov 11 18:02:29 <arjan> Jaffa: I know many people THINK \theyu want.
Nov 11 18:02:38 <sofar> ext4
Nov 11 18:02:39 <Jaffa> arjan: Well, I don't disagree there.
Nov 11 18:02:39 <CosmoHill> merge: I think you can only get them in person
Nov 11 18:02:40 <sofar> lol
Nov 11 18:02:47 <arjan> at least on x86 you don't need to replace the kernel for overclocking
Nov 11 18:02:48 <Stskeeps> sofar: ntfs support!
Nov 11 18:02:50 <arjan> you can do that from userland
Nov 11 18:02:55 <sofar> tee hee
Nov 11 18:02:55 <RST38h> ShadowJK: You may have noticed that once you let these guys chat to each other in some thread, they CAN help each other
Nov 11 18:03:03 <Jaffa> javispedro: Indeed. Anyone who wants something but doesn't know why should, henceforth, be called a red-piller
Nov 11 18:03:04 <lcuk> youngsters
Nov 11 18:03:05 <CosmoHill> ShadowJK: "Keyboard not found. Press F11 to continue"
Nov 11 18:03:12 <javispedro> Jaffa++
Nov 11 18:03:13 <lcuk> i remember when overclocking needed a pencil :P
Nov 11 18:03:20 <RST38h> ShadowJK: Yes, it does look like a bunch of monkeys having weird rituals, but they end up satisfied and that is ALL that is required
Nov 11 18:03:21 <arjan> CosmoHill: I had my n900 do kinda like that the other day
Nov 11 18:03:24 <arjan> had to take the battery out
Nov 11 18:03:26 <arjan> to fix it
Nov 11 18:03:47 <arjan> it had this dialog "this webpage has some other thing open. press cancel to continue or abort to exit." and then it had a "yes" and "no" button
Nov 11 18:03:55 <arjan> which didn't do anything because it was not cancel or exit
Nov 11 18:04:01 <arjan> and no way out of that modal dialog as a result
Nov 11 18:04:04 <arjan> -> time to remove the battery
Nov 11 18:04:11 <RST38h> arjan: Maemo5 kernel has unsafe CPU clocks artifically disabled
Nov 11 18:04:13 <thiago> hold the power button
Nov 11 18:04:14 <Stskeeps> arjan: ah, ran into that one too
Nov 11 18:04:20 <RST38h> arjan: To prevent users from melting that OMAP3 down
Nov 11 18:04:23 * arjan is not very happy with the latest n900 update
Nov 11 18:04:23 <thiago> the power button has "kill task"
Nov 11 18:04:39 <arjan> my 'you have a text message' blinky led also stopped working
Nov 11 18:04:40 <CosmoHill> Jaffa: what's a red-pillar?
Nov 11 18:04:42 <RST38h> arjan: That is why a new kernel is needed for overclocking
Nov 11 18:04:43 <arjan> as did the keyboard backlight
Nov 11 18:04:53 <arjan> RST38h: on x86 you can just read/write MSRs from userspace
Nov 11 18:04:58 <ShadowJK> I suspect wanting to do something that ends up needing iptables is the number one reason people end up in the situation where they need/want to replac kernel on n900
Nov 11 18:05:14 <RST38h> arjan: You can probably do the same with OMAP3 platform registers
Nov 11 18:05:15 <arjan> disabling iptables is evil.. I'll not argue against that ;)
Nov 11 18:05:19 <thiago> arjan: my blue blinking is still working
Nov 11 18:05:25 <javispedro> ShadowJK: #1 is still overclocking by far, in my experience outside tmo
Nov 11 18:05:25 <thiago> arjan: keyboard backlight too
Nov 11 18:05:31 <thiago> including R&D mode keyboard blinking
Nov 11 18:05:37 <RST38h> arjan: But then, how can you be sure that your friends Snapdragon-based pdevice has the same registers?
Nov 11 18:06:04 <ShadowJK> you don't know that on x86 either, do you?
Nov 11 18:06:15 <Stskeeps> javispedro: i'm wondering when i'll get some kind of complaint over the uboot catastrophe people brought upon themselves..
Nov 11 18:06:25 <RST38h> arjan: Or, for that matter, an x86 based device? Linux provides the clock frequency control abstraction just for this reason
Nov 11 18:06:49 <ShadowJK> uh
Nov 11 18:07:20 <Purti> does anyone tried to boot qemugl qith latest meego handset images?
Nov 11 18:08:20 <Purti> When i try to boot with qemugl and latest meego handset images with GL support enabled ..it freezes on booot..
Nov 11 18:08:49 <Purti> any one has any insight on this ?
Nov 11 18:09:15 <javispedro> Stskeeps: you're already the "evil" Stskeeps for not giving them flash ;)
Nov 11 18:09:34 <Stskeeps> javispedro: at least i go out with a bang!
Nov 11 18:11:00 <ShadowJK> so I guess my point was that if someone had checked what the most downloaded symbian app was before pondering whether to disable iptables or not, there'd been a lot less newbies trying to flash kernels :)
Nov 11 18:11:08 <RST38h> Stskeeps: Now we know the real reason why you left tmo :)
Nov 11 18:11:18 <Stskeeps> RST38h: i haven't left yet
Nov 11 18:11:25 <ShadowJK> although no single appstore would've made it hard :)
Nov 11 18:11:40 <RST38h> Uboot, Stskeeps. They will come for you, carrying pitchforks...
Nov 11 18:11:57 <CosmoHill> where is Stskeeps leaving?
Nov 11 18:12:10 <Stskeeps> here, naturally :P
Nov 11 18:12:27 <sivang> javispedro: yeah, 'sup?
Nov 11 18:12:39 * sivang was just about the head home in the furious heat
Nov 11 18:12:41 <javispedro> sivang: heya, read the backlog, around where I first pinged you
Nov 11 18:12:57 <ShadowJK> and repeating those kind of things will probably result in explosion of device-specific support issues :)
Nov 11 18:12:59 <sivang> javispedro: oh, more backlog reading- will do it at home
Nov 11 18:13:14 <sivang> javispedro: be back in an hour or so, is that okay?
Nov 11 18:14:41 <javispedro> sivang: yeah, no problem, will give you link.
Nov 11 18:16:35 <javispedro> btw
Nov 11 18:16:37 * javispedro is unaware
Nov 11 18:16:41 <javispedro> what's the problem with uboot?
Nov 11 18:17:20 <Stskeeps> javispedro: someone processed the meego guide for dual boot through 2-3 different origins of the guide and ended up removing the warning "DONT USE THIS WITH ANYTHING ELSE THAN PR1.3 KERNEL"
Nov 11 18:17:36 <Stskeeps> and a large bunch of, to be honest, lemmings, went ahead and installed kernel-power and then uboot-pr13..
Nov 11 18:17:46 <ShadowJK> lol
Nov 11 18:18:00 <javispedro> yes. lol :)
Nov 11 18:18:26 <RST38h> instant win!
Nov 11 18:18:31 * javispedro is used to this
Nov 11 18:18:47 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: once you have a quiet moment, it'd be a good idea to study the (talk.)maemo.org community a bit, to prepare a bit for any kind of potential on-rush we can have once meego 1.2 goes out and people really start productizing..
Nov 11 18:18:51 <ShadowJK> I think powerkernel has been updated with all 1.3 patches now, except for the usb bug/features
Nov 11 18:18:59 <RST38h> javispedro: I stopped responding to "how do I switch to full screen" after 5th or 6th question
Nov 11 18:19:08 <RST38h> javispedro: They do not read, just write mostly.
Nov 11 18:19:25 <javispedro> I've been careful enough to write appropiate number of "exit" commands in all instrucions I gave them, but those third-party sites then to remove them, so the lemmings blindly proceed to run everything as root
Nov 11 18:19:38 <javispedro> until they crap their rootfs by chowning /home/user or some other shit.
Nov 11 18:19:44 <ShadowJK> Stskeeps, if by "study" you mean getting thrown into a septic tank of undead lemmings?
Nov 11 18:19:59 <Stskeeps> ShadowJK: observing
Nov 11 18:20:37 <ShadowJK> it's probably still very harmful
Nov 11 18:20:41 <dm8tbr> full biosuit recommended
Nov 11 18:20:55 * ShadowJK wishes there was a fix
Nov 11 18:21:02 <smoku> huh... I see this kind of stuff everyday in Streak community. There are 3+ different radio images, and several customized system images floating around. and you have to have a matching radio and radio library in system. if not - you end up with non booting device. :)  half the threads on streak related forums are "my device is bootlooping! help!"
Nov 11 18:21:25 <RST38h> ShadowJK: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5017271902_20f880e58f.jpg
Nov 11 18:21:32 <RST38h> ShadowJK: "Undead lemmings"
Nov 11 18:21:34 <javispedro> lesson to be learned here -> everything that does not instantly fail horribly or has no BIG LETTERS feedback is ignored by lemmings
Nov 11 18:21:44 <RST38h> But, seriously, they are people too. And they also need a community.
Nov 11 18:21:53 <Stskeeps> smoku: ow
Nov 11 18:22:09 <RST38h> So, as long as you provide them with a community where they can feel at home, they will be happy
Nov 11 18:22:13 <Stskeeps> smoku: those kind of things almost make me want to believe in locked down devices..
Nov 11 18:22:25 <smoku> javispedro, this does not work.  BIG RED LETTERS work like advertisement box.  to-be-skipped
Nov 11 18:22:31 * javispedro realizes the truth behind Steve Jobs: he worked at tech support!
Nov 11 18:22:38 <Stskeeps> smoku: goatse.cx on each page might work
Nov 11 18:23:14 <RST38h> Stskeeps: There are much easier ways to do this
Nov 11 18:23:19 <ShadowJK> Stskeeps, ideally things should "just work" so that nobody even needs/wants to get involved in risky replacing of stuff :-)
Nov 11 18:23:22 <sivang> so without reading the complete backlog, but at least half ot it
Nov 11 18:23:23 <sivang> of it
Nov 11 18:23:27 <smoku> Stskeeps, not really. this is the case of not that much people making a lot of noise can skew the perception of reality.
Nov 11 18:23:34 <ShadowJK> but making things "just work" is damn hard :/
Nov 11 18:23:36 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: once you have a quiet moment, it'd be a good idea to study the (talk.)maemo.org community a bit, to prepare a bit for any kind of potential on-rush we can have once meego 1.2 goes out and people really start productizing.. we didn't prepare properly and it'd be good if we could here :P
Nov 11 18:23:42 <javispedro> smoku: and the "fail horribly" part might also not work, as a recent user in tmo ignored a failing "cd /dir" error message, then proceeded to run rm -rf *, which instead of erasing contents of /dir erased contents of /
Nov 11 18:23:44 <RST38h> Stskeeps: When asked a question, answer with a link to the appropriate wiki page. At that page, at the very top, show a huge red warning, flashing if you will
Nov 11 18:23:44 <sivang> DawnFoster: Looks like you will want to use the end result of me and timeless's talk
Nov 11 18:23:58 <Stskeeps> RST38h: <blink> was deprecated
Nov 11 18:24:00 <smoku> Stskeeps, the real problem was when O2 distributed OTA an image that bricked ~10% of devices :D
Nov 11 18:24:03 <lcuk> ShadowJK, of course.  and a lot of very skilled people are working damned hard as evidenced every single day
Nov 11 18:24:08 <DawnFoster> sivang - well, I am on right after the keynotes, so that isn't an option :)
Nov 11 18:24:13 <RST38h> Stskeeps: Do not get agitated, do not goatse them, do not try to help them individually. Just give a link to the wiki
Nov 11 18:24:20 <sivang> DawnFoster: oh no :) not for the conf :)
Nov 11 18:24:25 <RST38h> Stskeeps: But still working, hehe ;)
Nov 11 18:24:29 <DawnFoster> Stskeeps: agreed - now to just find that "quiet moment"
Nov 11 18:24:48 <sivang> DawnFoster: for actually helping us to remove the "leak hunger", "sarcasm" and "discontent" factors that we excavated in #maemo
Nov 11 18:24:52 <sivang> DawnFoster: :)
Nov 11 18:25:08 <DawnFoster> sivang: ah, sorry - too many parallel conversations - thought you were answering my questions about my conference talk
Nov 11 18:25:10 <sivang> DawnFoster: we are actually doing this research, me in the more general process and community sense, timeless in the more down the details
Nov 11 18:25:12 <DawnFoster> cool
Nov 11 18:25:17 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: yeah.. i'm currently planning for christmas to be my quiet moment, where i leave my n900 in the hands of my wife or something so i can't use it ;)
Nov 11 18:25:29 <DawnFoster> sivang: I would be very interested in seeing it after the conference
Nov 11 18:25:35 <DawnFoster> I'm swamped until them
Nov 11 18:25:55 <sivang> DawnFoster: I was wondering who'd be our point of contact once we come up with our findings
Nov 11 18:26:00 <javispedro> sivang: that's what I wanted you to notice btw ;)
Nov 11 18:26:01 * Stskeeps votes for someone sponsoring dawn a paid assistant or two
Nov 11 18:26:12 <javispedro> sivang: (in the backlog I mean)
Nov 11 18:26:16 <sivang> DawnFoster: if that's you, since you started asking what the commuhity is happy/unhappy with - great
Nov 11 18:26:21 <DawnFoster> I'm hiring another community manager :)
Nov 11 18:26:31 <DawnFoster> to get me off of things like Yocto, for example
Nov 11 18:26:37 <sivang> Yocto?
Nov 11 18:26:44 <sivang> DawnFoster: nice, off the community, off maemo?
Nov 11 18:26:45 <DawnFoster> not really meego focused, but I might be able to use them for some things
Nov 11 18:26:46 <Stskeeps> :nod: should help matters a bit
Nov 11 18:27:04 <DawnFoster> http://www.yoctoproject.org/
Nov 11 18:27:17 <sivang> DawnFoster: ideally the community manager should be someone who cannot get to sleep at night if some feature request was not filed being communicated out of frustration of a community emmeber
Nov 11 18:27:28 <javispedro> a zombie!
Nov 11 18:27:30 <DawnFoster> right now I am the only community manager in the open source group at intel and we have dozens of projects
Nov 11 18:27:36 <Stskeeps> sivang: trust me, you'd want a community manager that gets proper sleep..
Nov 11 18:27:45 <DawnFoster> sivang: I don't sleep much right now
Nov 11 18:27:58 <DawnFoster> ok, I have to get off of irc to finish my presentation :)
Nov 11 18:28:02 <Stskeeps> have fun!
Nov 11 18:28:08 <sivang> DawnFoster: sure, talk laters
Nov 11 18:28:08 <javispedro> hehe
Nov 11 18:28:14 <javispedro> waiting to hear it :)
Nov 11 18:28:31 <smoku> javispedro, I liked what Stskeeps did once. you have an app, plug in the device with USB and it takes care of everything. no place for error. if you have a non-booting device - try again. JustWorks(TM)
Nov 11 18:29:02 <sivang> DawnFoster: as a general note:  we need contacts in specs design and in more aspects of the project, not just a "community manager", so people can communicate things directly to not create bottlencks
Nov 11 18:29:12 <sivang> the bottleneck effect has some dangerous consequences :)
Nov 11 18:29:13 <sivang> anywa
Nov 11 18:29:21 <sivang> DawnFoster: have fun, talk later
Nov 11 18:29:36 <smoku> javispedro, this is how firmware upgrades for HTC WinMo devices work. the app reboots the device in service mode, has total control over the devicea and MakesYouGood(TM)
Nov 11 18:29:53 <DawnFoster> BTW, I should never be the bottleneck - people should be contacting others (governance pages, mailing lists, irc, etc.)
Nov 11 18:30:10 <sivang> DawnFoster: true, we need a "who does what" page with emails and responsibilities
Nov 11 18:30:14 <DawnFoster> Things should never go through me unless they need to be escalated for some reason
Nov 11 18:30:22 <javispedro> smoku: pretty much what I'd expect the Nokia windows-based upgrade to do..... and still...
Nov 11 18:30:24 <DawnFoster> http://meego.com/about/governance
Nov 11 18:30:36 <DawnFoster> all the links in the sidebar have tons of details
Nov 11 18:30:42 <DawnFoster> we still have some gaps
Nov 11 18:30:46 <DawnFoster> but we're getting there
Nov 11 18:30:55 <RST38h> smoku:What if I somehow leave it in the service mode and hack it there?
Nov 11 18:31:18 <smoku> RST38h, this is how we flashed custom roms :)
Nov 11 18:31:27 <javispedro> smoku: recently I've seen a XDA guy (android though, not winmo) that unpacked a firmware .img, replaced the rootfs with some other device's rootfs, and tried to flash the resulting .img
Nov 11 18:31:36 <RST38h> smoku: No, it will never become the iPhone :)
Nov 11 18:31:36 <javispedro> of course, the net result was instant crap
Nov 11 18:31:56 <smoku> javispedro, i did it once for the sake of experiment :)
Nov 11 18:32:09 <javispedro> but I guess you knew how to recover :)
Nov 11 18:32:15 <javispedro> and that it would most probably fail.
Nov 11 18:32:44 <smoku> sure. nevertheless the error messages provided valuable information :D
Nov 11 18:32:48 <sivang> DawnFoster: whom do I talk to about the compliance spec? about other details that must be met to get a "meego" stamp, out of quality aspects?
Nov 11 18:33:01 <Stskeeps> sivang: mats wichmann (mwichmann here) and mark skarpeness
Nov 11 18:33:04 <Stskeeps> they're active on mailing lsit
Nov 11 18:33:05 <lcuk> sivang, are you coming to  the conf
Nov 11 18:33:10 <DawnFoster> mark skarpness is listed on the governance page for compliance
Nov 11 18:33:11 <sivang> lcuk: I am.
Nov 11 18:33:19 <thiago> sivang: install meego core :-)
Nov 11 18:33:25 <javispedro> smoku: well, poor guy here just started crying "my device is now BRICKED!!! waaaah!!"
Nov 11 18:33:27 <lcuk> theres a talk about it that we could go to
Nov 11 18:33:34 <DawnFoster> mwichmann is a good choice too, but these should go through the mailing list
Nov 11 18:33:41 <sivang> thiago: I have a class 4 SD card :-/
Nov 11 18:33:49 <sivang> thiago: you mean, on the laptop?
Nov 11 18:34:01 <thiago> sivang: oh, quality?
Nov 11 18:34:03 <thiago> no idea then
Nov 11 18:34:14 <smoku> javispedro, the question is did he learn something from it. :)
Nov 11 18:34:33 <lcuk> cyas later anyway \o
Nov 11 18:34:47 <sivang> this is what I get for compliance:
Nov 11 18:34:49 <sivang> http://meego.com/about/compliance-program
Nov 11 18:34:56 <sivang> am I blind or not looking at the right place?
Nov 11 18:35:00 <Stskeeps> about -> governance
Nov 11 18:35:00 <smoku> javispedro, unfortunately the usual approach is "i did something stupid, now YOU fix it!"
Nov 11 18:35:04 <Stskeeps> , sivang
Nov 11 18:35:34 <javispedro> smoku: exactly. (I couldn't btw, not an android guy...)
Nov 11 18:35:48 <sivang> Stskeeps: wait ,m I'm checking :) I'm web navigation challanged today :)
Nov 11 18:35:57 <DawnFoster> http://meego.com/about/governance/quality-assurance
Nov 11 18:36:24 <DawnFoster> If you go to governance and click on all of the sidebar links, you see everyone in a named role
Nov 11 18:40:05 <mwichmann> sorry guys didn't see my name mentioned
Nov 11 18:40:16 <sivang> DawnFoster: okay, I'm at - http://meego.com/about/governance/ , but under governance there's no mention for the compliance program, only in a higher level of the navigation bar
Nov 11 18:40:29 <mwichmann> we've had compliance questions on meego-dev so people see them, as DawnFoster said
Nov 11 18:40:31 <Stskeeps> sivang: click 'quality assurance'
Nov 11 18:41:15 <mwichmann> the "program" still needs to be defined, tbh
Nov 11 18:41:17 <sivang> Stskeeps: oh, no I want to see the people responsible to the compliance spec for example , does this go through quality?
Nov 11 18:41:23 * sivang clicks
Nov 11 18:41:27 <Stskeeps> sivang: at the moment, i suppose
Nov 11 18:41:42 <Stskeeps> sivang: i'm not entirely sure why n900 work happens under release engineering either, but for now, it's the best place :)
Nov 11 18:41:47 <sivang> ah!
Nov 11 18:42:05 <sivang> Stskeeps: thank you! found it
Nov 11 18:42:36 <sivang> I would love to see the compliance spec better visible there, not just under "quality" since it essnetially defines the core features of the os
Nov 11 18:42:41 <sivang> mwichmann: ^
Nov 11 18:42:57 <sivang> or at least, of the core os that would get a meego stamp, holding to more criteria ofcouse
Nov 11 18:42:59 <Stskeeps> sivang: well, organisational model is the problem really
Nov 11 18:43:16 <Stskeeps> sivang: the compliance stuff is at wiki.meego.com/Quality/Compliance ,  i think
Nov 11 18:43:28 <mwichmann> yes right
Nov 11 18:44:04 <mwichmann> at the moment a more accurate term than "defines" is "captures", since def'n is coming out of architects
Nov 11 18:44:51 <mwichmann> however... the place it is now is the answer to "where should we hang it for now", expect it to move someday
Nov 11 18:45:43 <sivang> the spec or its draft can safely go in http://meego.com/about/compliance-program , if we note strongly enough this is ging to be only part of the conditions for compliance
Nov 11 18:45:47 <sivang> but I need to run now
Nov 11 18:46:01 <sivang> I should have gone an hour ago, but javispedro made me stay :-)
Nov 11 18:46:06 <sivang> and I'm happy for that, thank you javispedro
Nov 11 18:46:21 <javispedro> heh
Nov 11 18:46:30 <sivang> mwichmann: then have somewhere on the main site "compliance spec is looking for feedback" not just on the wiki, but maybe it doesn't make sense.
Nov 11 18:46:34 <sivang> anywa-
Nov 11 18:46:36 <sivang> bbl
Nov 11 18:47:09 <Stskeeps> mwichmann: i wonder if it'd be an interesting way to maintain compliance specs in for example gitorious, and allow people to submit changes to it/having reviews in that tool..
Nov 11 18:47:20 <Stskeeps> a way to bring the compliance work into the open, as such
Nov 11 18:47:26 <sivang> (and already we target power users and above to meego.com)
Nov 11 18:47:31 <sivang> Stskeeps: +1
Nov 11 18:47:34 <sivang> and I'm outnow, really
Nov 11 18:48:33 <javispedro> cya sivang
Nov 11 18:48:44 <javispedro> hm... gitorious democracy! :)
Nov 11 18:49:07 <mwichmann> I've considered converting it to docbook (from horrid Word :( ) to make it easier for people to do patches
Nov 11 18:49:17 <Stskeeps> mwichmann: LaTeX, make it difficult ;)
Nov 11 18:49:20 <mwichmann> I think *cough* some people dislike that idea though
Nov 11 18:49:42 <Stskeeps> (in honesty, latex isn't a half bad idea, easily patchable..)
Nov 11 18:50:12 <mwichmann> on the usual model, I've done lots of docbook and much less tex so guess which way I'd lean :)
Nov 11 18:50:32 <sivang> mwichmann: regardless of the medium, you said only minor stuff taken to imrpvoe out of past experience, I would like to extend this greatly.
Nov 11 18:50:35 <mwichmann> but anyway, for me I'd like to see the sources accessible and patchable
Nov 11 18:50:52 <sivang> mwichmann: why not use wiki to edit it with a amster version secured?
Nov 11 18:50:57 <sivang> edits
Nov 11 18:51:06 <mwichmann> well, I don't have the Nokia experience to draw on
Nov 11 18:51:19 <sivang> mwichmann: I don't have the moblin one
Nov 11 18:51:20 <sivang> :)
Nov 11 18:51:25 <mwichmann> I've drawn on what I've been through, but *ahem* some of that got tossed earlier
Nov 11 18:51:33 <sivang> oh
Nov 11 18:51:38 <mwichmann> "that's too complicated"
Nov 11 18:51:53 <sivang> that'd is prpboably a good target for community discussions
Nov 11 18:52:00 <mwichmann> I think we need to make a bunch of our own mistakes
Nov 11 18:52:02 <Stskeeps> mwichmann: if you'd like a brainstorm on making a compliance 'open' process at some point, feel free to poke me
Nov 11 18:52:02 <sivang> because as we have learnd with Maemo,
Nov 11 18:52:12 <sivang> the devil is in the dettails.
Nov 11 18:52:18 <mwichmann> yup
Nov 11 18:52:25 <sivang> timeless_mbp: >
Nov 11 18:52:46 <Stskeeps> mwichmann: if we can show a open compliance process we're already a lot better than other mobile OS'es ;)
Nov 11 18:52:56 <Stskeeps> (we already can, thanks to your drafts)
Nov 11 18:53:23 <sivang> timeless_mbp: sorry, see backlog when you have time
Nov 11 18:53:37 <sivang> anyway- now without lying, my home calls me
Nov 11 18:53:54 <mwichmann> stay in touch, guys
Nov 11 18:54:12 <timeless_mbp> mwichmann: making our own mistakes isn't worth it
Nov 11 18:54:35 <mwichmann> that's perhaps a private discussion for someday
Nov 11 18:54:41 <timeless_mbp> we look like the sum of two groups, so we are expected not to repeat the mistakes of either
Nov 11 18:54:44 <mwichmann> for now let's say I worded that carelessly
Nov 11 18:54:59 <sivang> and a lot were already made and created and contribute to the special atmosphere in #maemo
Nov 11 18:55:10 <Stskeeps> sivang: go!
Nov 11 18:55:10 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 11 18:55:13 <sivang> Stskeeps: :
Nov 11 18:55:15 <sivang> Stskeeps: :)
Nov 11 18:55:38 <sivang> Stskeeps: finished now, headed out. laters!
Nov 11 18:55:47 <sivang> Stskeeps: (sorry)
Nov 11 18:56:23 <mwichmann> <sivang> mwichmann: why not use wiki to edit it with a amster version secured?
Nov 11 18:56:45 <mwichmann> as an experiment, the Handset profile is this way, pulled out of spec and now on wiki for editing
Nov 11 18:57:11 <Stskeeps> ah, didn't know that
Nov 11 18:57:17 <Stskeeps> URL?
Nov 11 18:58:32 <mwichmann> it's linked off that compliance page, hold on
Nov 11 18:59:01 <Stskeeps> btw, for good measure, stskeeps == carsten munk, the one who keeps on commenting the compliance specs :P just to put a name to the nick
Nov 11 18:59:48 <mwichmann> http://wiki.meego.com/Quality/Compliance/HandsetProfile
Nov 11 18:59:56 <Stskeeps> thanks
Nov 11 18:59:58 <mwichmann> it doesn't highlight very much on the page, I notice
Nov 11 19:00:08 <Stskeeps> i guess we can use Talk: pages for discussion and have notifications for changes
Nov 11 19:01:06 <mwichmann> that would be fine
Nov 11 19:01:20 <Stskeeps> some procedure piece in header of page might be good
Nov 11 19:02:53 <Stskeeps> "Discussion will be conducted on Talk:Quality/Compliance/HandsetProfile , larger discussion on meego-dev@, please don't change document until approved by X, Y, Z in talk pages/discussion"
Nov 11 19:02:57 <Stskeeps> or something
Nov 11 19:06:21 <Myrtti> TEA DAMNIT
Nov 11 19:06:24 <mwichmann> as good a proposal as I've heard, you want to drop that in?
Nov 11 19:06:48 <Stskeeps> can do
Nov 11 19:06:55 <Stskeeps> who's the initial approvers?
Nov 11 19:07:28 <lcuk> it is possible to "subscribe" to individual wiki pages is it not?
Nov 11 19:07:39 <lcuk> so that when they are modified you can be informed
Nov 11 19:07:59 <lcuk> this will be important for people who care about the content
Nov 11 19:08:16 <Stskeeps> lcuk: yeah
Nov 11 19:08:27 <mwichmann> I used to do that with moinmoin wikis, dunno if mediawiki has that feature tho
Nov 11 19:08:45 <mwichmann> it's got a "watch" button so I guess so
Nov 11 19:09:07 <lcuk> perhaps in the meta information pages and guidelines
Nov 11 19:09:46 <lcuk> it could be described, so that as with this important document, it can be monitored and maintained easily
Nov 11 19:14:59 <smithna> Does anyone know what the package "audio manager" does or where I can read up on it?  (Google turned up nada)
Nov 11 19:16:46 <Stskeeps> mwichmann: refresh wiki and check out new text + talk page
Nov 11 19:18:46 <mwichmann> excellent, thanks
Nov 11 19:18:50 <Stskeeps> np
Nov 11 19:20:50 <Stskeeps> and thanks for experimenting with this form of collab in this area :)
Nov 11 19:21:24 <lbt> mwichmann: hi
Nov 11 19:22:12 <Myrtti> I can haz tea ♥
Nov 11 19:22:36 * lbt bought ground coffee for Dublin
Nov 11 19:22:43 <javispedro> no kthxbye
Nov 11 19:22:50 <lbt> and is taking his 1-cup filter .... mmmm
Nov 11 19:23:01 <mwichmann> hi  (distracted, in "irc conference" elsewhere)
Nov 11 19:23:06 <lbt> np
Nov 11 19:23:07 <tekojo> lbt: have you visited Finland once too often?
Nov 11 19:23:16 <lbt> once?
Nov 11 19:23:20 <lbt> mwichmann: I just wanted to follow up from the question in the TSG
Nov 11 19:23:31 <tekojo> taking your coffee everywhere
Nov 11 19:23:32 <lbt> wondered how it could get some chat around it
Nov 11 19:23:38 <lbt> tekojo: yeah....
Nov 11 19:23:48 <lbt> as long as there's a kettle
Nov 11 19:24:01 <Myrtti> as long as there's good italian roast and a moka pot...
Nov 11 19:24:09 <Myrtti> nice earl gray is a bonus
Nov 11 19:24:37 * lbt has never smoked moka pot
Nov 11 19:25:56 <mwichmann> earl gray, sigh, tastes good but the added stuff kind of obscures the tea itself
Nov 11 19:26:06 <sivang> back
Nov 11 19:26:09 <mwichmann> anyway... lbt - which question?
Nov 11 19:26:22 <sivang> what did I miss? :)
Nov 11 19:26:23 <thiago_home> tea, earl grey, hot
Nov 11 19:26:29 <sivang> thiago_home: ahhh
Nov 11 19:26:32 <lbt> mwichmann: MeeGo Application compliance re-position
Nov 11 19:26:47 <mwichmann> ah yes, that one
Nov 11 19:26:50 <lbt> trying to provide a compliance for appsa
Nov 11 19:26:55 <lbt> and at the same time
Nov 11 19:27:05 <sivang> tekojo: once too often? there can be no such thing.
Nov 11 19:27:07 <mwichmann> honestly I don't know where best to conduct that
Nov 11 19:27:26 <lbt> Graham Cobb suggested it's a marketing issue
Nov 11 19:27:30 <Myrtti> mwichmann: I'll take any Earl Gray over Lipton Yellow Label
Nov 11 19:27:41 <lbt> conceptually the compliance is well scoped
Nov 11 19:27:59 <lbt> "works anywhere... includes any deps"
Nov 11 19:28:08 <mwichmann> Myrtti: yes, but over a nice nilgiri unpolluted by bergamot?
Nov 11 19:28:33 <lbt> but it is positioned to imply that anything else is *non* compliant with MeeGo.... not that limited scope
Nov 11 19:28:37 <Myrtti> mwichmann: unfortunately such choices aren't given often... atleast in Finland.
Nov 11 19:28:39 <mwichmann> calling it a marketing issue is sort of correct
Nov 11 19:28:51 <mwichmann> an appstore doesn't grok dependencies well
Nov 11 19:28:58 <sivang> mwichmann: important note: some of the community people including me fear we might not get more chances to do mistakes (yes mistakes are going to be made no matter what) but there's a lot of data and knowledge out there already that cane help us reduce the error rate. THis is why we kind of feel passionate about it, we love what was achieved so far and think it is already better than any other alternative, but want to see it prospoer ang gain more adopti
Nov 11 19:29:04 <lbt> it's MeeGoappinabox compliant
Nov 11 19:29:05 <Stskeeps> sivang: you got cut off
Nov 11 19:29:12 <sivang> Stskeeps: ah..
Nov 11 19:29:16 <mwichmann> indeed, when I look for android apps and one lists a dep I tend to skip it
Nov 11 19:29:17 * sivang repastes
Nov 11 19:29:28 <Myrtti> sivang: you'll get cut off again
Nov 11 19:29:35 <sivang> oh
Nov 11 19:29:39 <sivang> Myrtti: how come?
Nov 11 19:29:40 <Myrtti> sivang: start from "gain more adopti"
Nov 11 19:29:42 <mwichmann> sivang: thought you went home?
Nov 11 19:29:48 <dneary> Hi
Nov 11 19:29:48 <Myrtti> sivang: character limit of IRC
Nov 11 19:29:49 <sivang> mwichmann: I reached home :-)
Nov 11 19:29:53 <lbt> mwichmann: that's OK ... but by labelling apps with deps as non-compliant with *meego* then you encorage their elimination from any app store
Nov 11 19:29:58 <dneary> Isn't oFono GObject based?
Nov 11 19:30:06 <dneary> Or am I mistaken?
Nov 11 19:30:15 <sivang> mwichmann: gain more adoption and developers  rather the other way around.
Nov 11 19:30:20 <mwichmann> lbt: yes, I really want to avoid the "stigma" - everything works but you can't be compliant
Nov 11 19:30:21 <lbt> instead they are non-compliant with the 'lowest common denominator'
Nov 11 19:30:26 <lbt> *nod*
Nov 11 19:30:27 <mwichmann> unless there's some other category
Nov 11 19:30:32 <sivang> mwichmann: that said, your work is immensly appreciated and personally I thikn the direction is very good
Nov 11 19:30:33 <lbt> anyhow... gotta go... wife is glaring
Nov 11 19:30:37 <lbt> back later ;)
Nov 11 19:34:13 <dneary> Ah, looks at first glance like I'm mistaken
Nov 11 19:34:19 <dneary> Uses glib, but not GObject
Nov 11 19:34:30 <dneary> How about ConnMan? Same deal, I suppose?
Nov 11 19:34:39 <mwichmann> so I'll reapeat the question that's sort of floated around
Nov 11 19:34:44 <javispedro> dneary: same deal
Nov 11 19:35:12 <mwichmann> what's the best way to tap into our collective knowledge over compliance "pitfalls"
Nov 11 19:35:16 <javispedro> ... at least according to some blogs random rant about connman I recently read
Nov 11 19:35:22 <mwichmann> so it's a somewhat-persistent discussion
Nov 11 19:35:43 <mwichmann> it's not really here (I already forgot stuff from yesterday :( )
Nov 11 19:35:50 <mwichmann> and I'm not sure it's meego-dev
Nov 11 19:37:26 <Stskeeps> mwichmann: well, setting up a work group of people from different fields and having monthly reports on compliance work might do the trick
Nov 11 19:38:31 <Stskeeps> then there's a focused set of changes that people can react to, etc
Nov 11 19:38:39 * timeless_ sighs
Nov 11 19:38:53 <timeless_> mwichmann: come to our presentation
Nov 11 19:38:55 <sivang> http://conference2010.meego.com/session/creating-first-choice-open-source-mobile-platform-learning-mistakes-past-and-beyond
Nov 11 19:38:59 <sivang> err
Nov 11 19:39:00 <sivang> mwichmann: http://conference2010.meego.com/session/creating-first-choice-open-source-mobile-platform-learning-mistakes-past-and-beyond
Nov 11 19:39:00 <timeless_> take notes, or watch the video :)
Nov 11 19:39:11 <sivang> mwichmann: we hope this is a start
Nov 11 19:39:35 * timeless_mbp should work on slides
Nov 11 19:40:32 <sivang> mwichmann: this is somethign set by the communty for the community (and vendors and verticals would benefit) to do exactly this, with the hope of coming up with basis for specs, brainstroming, decisions etc. the abstract actually explains just taht.
Nov 11 19:41:28 <Noobmonk3y> lcuk , MohammadAG , Kathy's Knitting application almost done -> just need to get the save and load working, then figure out how to package!!
Nov 11 19:41:54 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, this ain't #maemo :P
Nov 11 19:42:16 <Noobmonk3y> hehehe, but it will work on meego
Nov 11 19:42:20 <Noobmonk3y> if it uses qt
Nov 11 19:42:25 <Noobmonk3y> planning ahead you see ;)
Nov 11 19:42:31 <Noobmonk3y> all meego users need a knitting counter
Nov 11 19:42:41 <Noobmonk3y> http://bit.ly/cJWdVo
Nov 11 19:43:12 <mwichmann> sivang, timeless_: okay I see it, wish I could be there
Nov 11 19:43:24 <mwichmann> didn't get to come this time
Nov 11 19:44:01 <lcuk> good stuff Noobmonk3y :)
Nov 11 19:45:56 <Noobmonk3y> :) - so, easiest way to package on a windows 7 pc without scratchbox? ;)
Nov 11 19:46:11 <Myrtti> sun must be freezing
Nov 11 19:46:35 <lcuk> Noobmonk3y, scratchbox not required.
Nov 11 19:46:37 <timeless_mbp> mwichmann: we've asked for them to record it
Nov 11 19:46:38 <MohammadAG> Noobmonk3y, upload to git and let someone else package it :P
Nov 11 19:46:41 <timeless_mbp> and slides will definitely go up
Nov 11 19:46:43 <Noobmonk3y> Moh lol
Nov 11 19:47:02 <Noobmonk3y> it packages into a deb on the device i assume, meh will go googley
Nov 11 19:47:45 <mwichmann> slides will be something, not like being there tho (sigh)
Nov 11 19:49:13 <vgrade> is going to miss the conf due to day job commitments :(
Nov 11 19:49:18 <timeless_mbp> mwichmann: it took me lots of work to be able to go
Nov 11 19:49:32 <Noobmonk3y> lcuk: assuming this is right? http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging_Qt_Creator_Apps_for_Maemo_Extras
Nov 11 19:49:42 <vgrade> unchecked the days on my conf account, is that all i need to do the cancel my reg
Nov 11 19:50:09 <Stskeeps> vgrade: there's an option for 'attending' or not, afaik
Nov 11 19:52:50 <vgrade> Stskeeps, thanks I'll have another look
Nov 11 19:54:27 <vgrade> ah, you have to click on register panel which then gives you the option to cancel
Nov 11 19:54:49 <sivang> timeless_mbp: I've just emailed again to see status of audio/video as we did not get a response yet.
Nov 11 19:54:50 <vgrade> rather like clicking on the start button to shutdown windows
Nov 11 19:55:56 <andre41> what electricity sockets does Ireland have? same as UK? wondering whether I need an adapter
Nov 11 19:57:46 <javispedro> uk, yes
Nov 11 19:58:10 <javispedro> then again I think most hotels will sell adapters to you, or even have "universal wall plugs" (i've actually seen one of it today)
Nov 11 19:58:13 <andre41> thx
Nov 11 19:59:23 <lcuk> javispedro, bring on the nuclear powered personal generators.
Nov 11 20:00:25 <javispedro> the N900 -- now with more atoms!
Nov 11 20:00:46 <RST38h> javispedro: In the very worst case, some store at the airport will have overpriced adapters
Nov 11 20:02:09 <sivang> LHR has a shop where they sell universal adaptors, very cool
Nov 11 20:02:12 <lcuk> is there some wizard around who could download/convert_to_png/reupload the photos in this wiki page: http://wiki.maemo.org/VideoEditor
Nov 11 20:02:25 <lcuk> some of the ideas might be useful to the people doing the early bird sessions
Nov 11 20:03:05 <lcuk> its layouts for a video editor we did during one of the conceptual design sessions http://www.forum.nokia.com/Design/Design_process/Getting_started/Conceptual_design.xhtml
Nov 11 20:05:46 <sivang> luck: you work for FN?
Nov 11 20:06:28 <sivang> andre41: I might bring some more adaptors with me, so catch me up if you see me and ask if you don't get one until we're there
Nov 11 20:06:48 <lcuk> sivang, no.  these were sessions during the Maemo Barcelona long weekend.
Nov 11 20:07:23 <andre41> I still have a UK adapter from earlier UK conferences, but thanks :)
Nov 11 20:08:28 <wazd> http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/11/this-is-the-nexus-s/
Nov 11 20:08:37 <fiferboy> Hey wazd!
Nov 11 20:08:43 <wazd> samsunginized n900 :)
Nov 11 20:08:47 <wazd> fiferboy: heya :)
Nov 11 20:09:11 <RST38h> wazd: Indeed, has become all round...
Nov 11 20:09:49 <wazd> RST38h: looks cheap, as all samsung stuff
Nov 11 20:10:01 <fiferboy> wazd: I'll be getting into Dublin an hour before you
Nov 11 20:10:08 <wazd> fiferboy: hehe :)
Nov 11 20:10:19 <RST38h> wazd: Well, it sells...
Nov 11 20:10:34 <wazd> fiferboy: Lets wish not a year before me :)
Nov 11 20:10:51 <fiferboy> wazd: Everything going smoothly?
Nov 11 20:11:07 <wazd> fiferboy: not quite, visa is *still* pending
Nov 11 20:11:22 <fiferboy> wazd: Fingers crossed!
Nov 11 20:11:53 <wazd> fiferboy: well, the wait will be over tommorow at 12:00 :) I will either get it or not :)
Nov 11 20:14:05 * javispedro idly toys with his eu->uk adaptor
Nov 11 20:14:38 <javispedro> man, those uk plugs are big
Nov 11 20:14:53 <javispedro> the uk iphone box must be like, double the size.
Nov 11 20:15:39 <leinir> Nah, there bit you can take off has a UK plug on it... but yeah, it's about the size of the rest of the thing again ;)
Nov 11 20:29:26 <bambule> hi guys, i am a developer coming from an buildroot/openembedded background. to me this whole approach with OBS feels somehow alien. as an embedded developer i would feel much better with a local buildsystem that is creating the whole image from scratch (including the toolchain).  this easily allows me to tweak every aspect of the system. how do you feel about OBS. Can you "sell" it to me?
Nov 11 20:29:54 * javispedro raises his ear
Nov 11 20:31:23 <timeless_mbp> bambule: install OBS locally?
Nov 11 20:31:55 <bambule> yes, i know that i can do this. but on a first glance it doesn't look so straight forward
Nov 11 20:32:37 <timeless_mbp> can i sell you scratchbox instead?
Nov 11 20:32:40 <timeless_mbp> it's worse :)
Nov 11 20:32:50 <bambule> much more complicated then "bitbake poky-image-sato"
Nov 11 20:33:15 <bambule> timeless_mbp: ?
Nov 11 20:33:31 <bambule> timeless_mbp: i know what scratchbox is
Nov 11 20:33:45 <javispedro> and what do you think of it?
Nov 11 20:34:18 <bambule> timeless_mbp: hmm, the nice thing is that it actually prevents the "host from leaking into the target"
Nov 11 20:34:39 <bambule> timeless_mbp: i've spent quite some time adding cross compile targets to buildroot...
Nov 11 20:34:42 <timeless_mbp> which "it"?
Nov 11 20:34:56 <bambule> timeless_mbp: scratchbox
Nov 11 20:35:37 <bambule> timeless_mbp: ahhh, meant to say "cross compile open source packages for buildroot/ARM"
Nov 11 20:35:39 <timeless_mbp> bambule: ok, any other "nice things" about it?
Nov 11 20:36:03 <bambule> timeles_mbp: wasn't it you who wanted to sell it?   ;-)
Nov 11 20:36:09 <timeless_mbp> um
Nov 11 20:36:17 <timeless_mbp> i offer two things for sale
Nov 11 20:36:26 <timeless_mbp> bridges (brooklyn, golden gate)
Nov 11 20:36:33 <timeless_mbp> HELl holes
Nov 11 20:36:51 <timeless_mbp> scratchbox does not usually fall into the first category
Nov 11 20:37:14 <bambule> timeless_mbp: sorry, i've lost me
Nov 11 20:37:37 <timeless_mbp> bambule: some things are amazing, and worth reaching for
Nov 11 20:37:44 <timeless_mbp> some are terrible and worth running away from
Nov 11 20:37:56 <timeless_mbp> both are helpful for putting things in perspective
Nov 11 20:38:50 <timeless_mbp> there's a sizable group of people who come to meego having spent roughly 5 years working with scratchbox
Nov 11 20:38:55 <timeless_mbp> most of them have learned to hate it
Nov 11 20:39:06 <timeless_mbp> some have just found ways to deal w/ its quirks
Nov 11 20:39:12 <timeless_mbp> others just accept the pain
Nov 11 20:39:24 <javispedro> and then there's javispedro, who even likes it to some degree.
Nov 11 20:39:45 <timeless_mbp> some went off in search of something better... and found OBS
Nov 11 20:39:55 <timeless_mbp> some went off and tried to reduce scratchbox to virtually nothing
Nov 11 20:40:07 <timeless_mbp> either in the form of sb2, or in the form of zero devkits
Nov 11 20:40:37 <timeless_mbp> there's even a group which spent time trying to get scratchbox to do a reasonable job doing distributed compilation to deal w/ speed issues
Nov 11 20:42:06 <timeless_mbp> anyway, i don't have much experience w/ OBS
Nov 11 20:42:20 <timeless_mbp> or any real experience w/ buildroot
Nov 11 20:42:31 <bambule> timeless_mbp: ok, so scratchbox has fallen in popularity and people started to use OBS at some point.
Nov 11 20:42:34 <timeless_mbp> i've done basic cross compiles of things (gcc, gdb, mozilla)
Nov 11 20:43:03 <timeless_mbp> there are lots of ways of doing things
Nov 11 20:43:13 <timeless_mbp> and using more than one in a project leads to disasters
Nov 11 20:43:21 <timeless_mbp> (i wonder if my slides will cover that, i'll have to try to)
Nov 11 20:43:31 <timeless_mbp> you have to settle on one solution
Nov 11 20:43:44 <timeless_mbp> and you can't spend lots of times arguing over water under the bridge
Nov 11 20:43:45 <bambule> timeless_mbp: still it doesn't feel good to me that i can't just compile the whole shebang. but i guess thats just me
Nov 11 20:43:53 * timeless_mbp ponders
Nov 11 20:44:05 <timeless_mbp> perhaps you want gentoo or bsd?
Nov 11 20:44:05 <bambule> timeless_mbp: thank you for the long explanation btw
Nov 11 20:44:23 <bambule> timeless_mbp: no i am not that kind of guy  :-)
Nov 11 20:44:29 <timeless_mbp> building mozilla used to take me 4 hours
Nov 11 20:44:38 <timeless_mbp> building openoffice was supposed to be 24+hours
Nov 11 20:44:49 <timeless_mbp> i can't speak for today because i rarely do full builds
Nov 11 20:45:01 <timeless_mbp> building the entire world isn't fast
Nov 11 20:45:03 <timeless_mbp> and isn't useful
Nov 11 20:45:14 <bambule> timeless_mbp: sure but who is doing open office builds for his handset?
Nov 11 20:45:19 <timeless_mbp> um
Nov 11 20:45:26 <timeless_mbp> we include some portion of koffice iirc
Nov 11 20:45:32 <timeless_mbp> sure it isn't openoffice, but it's close
Nov 11 20:45:47 <timeless_mbp> heck, historically building Qt alone was painfully slow
Nov 11 20:45:55 <timeless_mbp> i didn't mind building mozilla from scratch daily
Nov 11 20:46:01 <timeless_mbp> or gtk from scratch daily (as a prereq)
Nov 11 20:46:08 <timeless_mbp> but building Qt was so slow that i had to cache it
Nov 11 20:46:26 <timeless_mbp> (This was Qt2, around 1999 on Sparcs fwiw)
Nov 11 20:46:28 <javispedro> building all of qt takes more than openoffice here
Nov 11 20:46:41 * timeless_mbp thanks javispedro for the reference point
Nov 11 20:47:10 <javispedro> (due to webkit mostly... )
Nov 11 20:47:37 <timeless_mbp> unsuprisingly :)
Nov 11 20:47:42 <achipa> timeless_mbp: was ? It still takes quite some time (in fact, am compiling 4.7 for Diablo as we speak under virtualbox, just to reexplore the sense of the word patience) :)
Nov 11 20:47:59 <timeless_mbp> achipa: oh, i qualified in case i was wrong
Nov 11 20:48:04 <timeless_mbp> i didn't expect to be wrong about today :)
Nov 11 20:48:06 <bambule> timeless_mbp: i guess i know what the different mindset is coming from. i've developed several commercial devices with a buildroot based system. these devices have a defined set of software packages (QT was part of it btw. so i know about the compile times). to do a full compile it took 3-4 hours but you only need to do this every few weeks. later in the development never. you think more along the line of a full distribution
Nov 11 20:49:21 <achipa> timeless_mbp: and since nowadays you will want to include QtM, MTF, components, whatever, in the end if becomes a very formidable build load :)
Nov 11 20:49:33 <timeless_mbp> achipa: yep yep
Nov 11 20:49:51 <timeless_mbp> bambule: so, the reality is that people including yourself don't build everything all the time
Nov 11 20:51:46 <bambule> timeless_mbp: yes, but i remember that we had to switch the compiler versions, add some parameters to tweak performance on a certain CPU, we also needed to replace some very basic packages. to do this we just had to recompile (as opposed to creating an OBS instance).
Nov 11 20:52:04 * timeless_mbp shrugs
Nov 11 20:52:08 <timeless_mbp> very little difference really
Nov 11 20:52:32 <bambule> timeless_mbp: OK, so i will try to setup on OBS over the weekend   :-)
Nov 11 20:52:39 <bambule> lets see how much pain it is
Nov 11 20:52:50 <Stskeeps> bambule: grab an account on build.opensuse.org and look around
Nov 11 20:53:24 <bambule> Stskeeps: not sure that its what i want. i want to run a full meego compile.
Nov 11 20:53:49 <Stskeeps> bambule: it is
Nov 11 20:53:56 <Stskeeps> bambule: what for?
Nov 11 20:54:25 <bambule> Stskeeps: just for the sake of it
Nov 11 20:54:47 <bambule> Stskeeps: well not just for the sake of it
Nov 11 20:55:40 <bambule> Stskeeps: for an embedded environment its important and not so uncommon to have a new platform that requires a recompile. and i want to know how much pain this is
Nov 11 20:55:49 <bambule> with OBS/meego
Nov 11 20:59:25 <Stskeeps> bambule: have to get on laptop but will explain afterwards. in short: easy. bootstrapping (meego to mips first time, meego to sh4), hard. recompiling with various flags, bloody easy.
Nov 11 21:00:10 <bambule> ok, sweet. i'll play a bit with build.opensuse.org
Nov 11 21:01:05 <Stskeeps> i just rebuilt for armv6 plus vfp in a week, with next to none involvement with the process
Nov 11 21:01:14 <Stskeeps> on a crap server
Nov 11 21:03:19 <GAN900> If anybody still hasn't put their info here: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Conference_2010/Flight_Information
Nov 11 21:04:31 <Stskeeps> bambule: so, i presume you understand the source and binary package approach - build once, install many?
Nov 11 21:04:36 <Stskeeps> rpm/apt/yum/zypper etc
Nov 11 21:04:41 * timeless_mbp grumbles
Nov 11 21:05:26 <bambule> Stskeeps: i've build RPM by hand before and know that you can have source and binary packages
Nov 11 21:06:12 <Stskeeps> bambule: right, so, in essense, OBS is a builder - you input source packages, it builds them depending on project configuration and dependancies within build targets
Nov 11 21:06:54 <Stskeeps> bambule: these project configurations can provide optimization flags, and when you make a global configuration change, it'll notice and recompile the whole bunch of patches in right order
Nov 11 21:06:59 <Stskeeps> err, packages, not patches
Nov 11 21:07:09 <bambule> Stskeeps: ok, understood
Nov 11 21:07:44 <bambule> Stskeeps: sounds good
Nov 11 21:08:50 <Stskeeps> it's possible to set up your own OBS as well, where you import src rpms and binary rpms to do your own rebuilds - or simply to build your own application packages against it
Nov 11 21:09:08 <Stskeeps> what it in essense is doing is constructing a build chroot where things get built within
Nov 11 21:09:43 <Stskeeps> on ARM, it dumps in the native arm packages, but also cross compilers built for x86, and provides a 'native build' kind of feeling. except it's not bloody slow.
Nov 11 21:09:52 <Cosmo[PB]> anyone on pay as you go vodafone uk?
Nov 11 21:10:01 <bambule> Stskeeps: but its always a chroot. so if i am cross compiling i have to take care that the host is not leaking in, right?
Nov 11 21:10:28 <Stskeeps> bambule: always a chroot - the cross compilation actually happens within the chroot
Nov 11 21:10:42 <Stskeeps> x86 binaries are entered and accelerated certain parts, bash, gcc, etc
Nov 11 21:10:53 <bambule> Stskeeps: sure but its a cross compile
Nov 11 21:11:02 <Stskeeps> it is, except not the traditional kind :)
Nov 11 21:11:15 <Stskeeps> let me grab a build log as an exmaple
Nov 11 21:11:37 <timeless_mbp> Cosmo[PB]: i have PAYG O2 UK
Nov 11 21:11:44 <bambule> Stskeeps: an example would be a good thing   :-)
Nov 11 21:12:21 <Cosmo[PB]> omfg
Nov 11 21:12:26 <Cosmo[PB]> oh sorry, wrong channel
Nov 11 21:12:49 <Stskeeps> bambule: http://pastie.org/1290975 - it constructs the chroot, installs packages into it. but it also installs these 'x86' packages. the x86 glibc is put in /emul-ia32 and the cross compiler is installed as is in /usr/bin/gcc for instance, the bash-x86 replaces /bin/bash, etc..
Nov 11 21:13:07 <Stskeeps> it then chroots into the build root (with arm binaries and some x86 binaries) and launches the build
Nov 11 21:13:19 <Stskeeps> qemu-arm binary emulation is good enough for building, these days
Nov 11 21:13:25 <Cosmo[PB]> timeless_mbp: cool but it's a vodafone specific question
Nov 11 21:14:12 <Stskeeps> bambule: means no need for changes to source, just packaging, and it feels like a 'fast' ARM build machine
Nov 11 21:18:21 <Stskeeps> sigh
Nov 11 21:18:33 <Stskeeps> why do people ping out when i explain things to them
Nov 11 21:20:09 <CosmoHill> because you're that kinda guy
Nov 11 21:20:49 <thiago_home> Stskeeps: big brother is watching
Nov 11 21:21:07 <Stskeeps> i should start charging instead, maybe they'd stay..
Nov 11 21:21:08 <CosmoHill> just tell them to read the logs
Nov 11 21:21:08 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 11 21:21:38 <CosmoHill> (you missed the first speaking, it will be $5 to hear this information again)
Nov 11 21:32:08 <newjor> hello.the os of my host machine is fedora 14.can install the sdk1.1 in it?
Nov 11 21:34:07 <newjor> hello.the os of my host machine is fedora 14.can install the sdk1.1 in it?
Nov 11 21:34:23 <thiago_home> what does the wiki page say about fedora 14?
Nov 11 21:34:28 <thiago_home> and why did you repeat?
Nov 11 21:35:39 <Stskeeps> bambule: check channel logs in topic for my explanation until you pinged out :)
Nov 11 21:36:17 <newjor> well,i haven't seen any about fedora 14 in wiki,please give me URL.
Nov 11 21:37:13 <thiago_home> newjor: the announcement page has it
Nov 11 21:37:20 <thiago_home> newjor: I don't know the URL by heart
Nov 11 21:47:10 <bambule> Stskeeps: ok
Nov 11 21:48:34 <newjor> thiago_home:sorry,i still can't find any about fedora 14,can you tell me whether fedora 13 is the top release for sdk1.1? thanks.
Nov 11 21:48:45 <thiago_home> newjor: no, I can't
Nov 11 21:48:54 <thiago_home> I looked at the list of supported distros and mine isn't there
Nov 11 21:49:00 <thiago_home> so I promptly forgot the list
Nov 11 21:50:02 <bambule> Stskeeps: thanks btw
Nov 11 21:53:05 <Stskeeps> np
Nov 11 21:53:08 <Stskeeps> sleep time
Nov 11 22:23:09 <CosmoHill> never mind the buzzcocks is so funny night, lbt you should watch it
Nov 11 22:23:51 <lbt> CosmoHill: channel
Nov 11 22:23:53 <lbt> ?
Nov 11 22:23:55 <CosmoHill> bbc2
Nov 11 22:24:00 <lbt> got it
Nov 11 22:24:06 <CosmoHill> you just missed james blunt riding phil
Nov 11 22:31:16 <lbt> good call :)
Nov 11 22:35:49 <timeless_mbp> lbt / GAN900 / Stskeeps / sivang : hey, got time?
Nov 11 22:36:57 <GAN900> timeless_mbp, depends.
Nov 11 22:37:42 <CosmoHill> lbt: and now to bbc3
Nov 11 22:38:07 <lbt> indeed
Nov 11 22:38:20 <lbt> myth's got it already
Nov 11 22:39:01 <lbt> CosmoHill: now to iplayer to get the 1st half...
Nov 11 22:39:13 <CosmoHill> :)
Nov 11 22:42:08 <CosmoHill> BDick: your name just reminds me of "Carry on Dick"
Nov 11 23:07:47 <GAN900> Forgot Ireland isn't an EU plug.
Nov 11 23:07:51 <CosmoHill> lbt: I've been thinking of making a combined mythtv box and home server
Nov 11 23:07:57 <GAN900> Hooray for universal adaptors.
Nov 11 23:08:25 <CosmoHill> http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.images.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Duk%2Bplug%26b%3D21%26ni%3D20%26ei%3DUTF-8%26xargs%3D0%26pstart%3D1%26fr%3Dmoz35%26fr2%3Dtab-web&w=600&h=480&imgurl=www.thebookyard.com%2Fimages%2Fukpsuplug.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thebookyard.com%2Fproduct_reviews.php%3Fproducts_id%3D441&size=16k&name=ukpsuplug+jpg&p=uk+plug&oid=b7c0e477dc399bc8&fr2=tab-web&no=39&tt=103078&
Nov 11 23:08:25 <CosmoHill> b=21&ni=20&sigr=11ummbhum&sigi=118vn296k&sigb=13jbtqgn7&.crumb=NIRLb.0Y5fc
Nov 11 23:08:30 <CosmoHill> damn you
Nov 11 23:08:34 <wmarone> URL SMASH
Nov 11 23:08:36 <CosmoHill> http://www.thebookyard.com/images/ukpsuplug.jpg
Nov 11 23:09:23 <CosmoHill> on a side note, those little apple plugs aren't earthed where as the leads are
Nov 11 23:09:27 <Myrtti> HULK SMASH BAD URL
Nov 11 23:09:54 <CosmoHill> I thought it was Mongo who smashed
Nov 11 23:11:55 <Myrtti> *shrug*
Nov 11 23:12:33 <GAN900> Both clearly have anger management issues.
Nov 11 23:15:27 <Myrtti> I don't know, I just follow @feministhulk in Twitter for fun
Nov 11 23:17:07 <Myrtti> http://twitter.com/#!/feministhulk/status/28522499273 ♥
Nov 11 23:18:13 <Myrtti> *giggle*
Nov 12 00:33:14 <mrcerulean> Hello, everyone. Any ideas on getting the Google Video and Voice Chat plugin installed on 1.1?
Nov 12 00:38:11 <Myrtti> mrcerulean: which UX?
Nov 12 00:38:43 <mrcerulean> Hmmm... I downloaded the Netbook Chrome version.
Nov 12 00:39:19 <mrcerulean> When I try to install, libcrypto is listed as a missing dependency.
Nov 12 00:42:02 <Myrtti> good grief it's almost three o'clock
Nov 12 00:42:05 <Myrtti> bed -->
Nov 12 01:47:49 <mvax> sup
Nov 12 01:51:08 <lolloo> hey!
Nov 12 01:51:47 <mvax> someone answer me sincerly
Nov 12 01:52:01 <mvax> is meego actualy better than maemo?
Nov 12 01:52:17 <lolloo> they share same kernel
Nov 12 01:52:31 <lolloo> meego has xterm like maemo does
Nov 12 01:53:29 <lolloo> still along way ahead for meego to be released though
Nov 12 01:55:17 <movax> hmmm
Nov 12 01:55:20 <movax> interesting
Nov 12 01:55:35 <mvax> i never used meego
Nov 12 01:55:48 <lolloo> its not out yet
Nov 12 01:55:58 <lolloo> if it is i will use it
Nov 12 01:56:06 <lolloo> and I mean the offcial
Nov 12 01:56:18 <mvax> what i was about to say
Nov 12 01:56:24 <mvax> i found some images to download
Nov 12 01:56:38 <lolloo> I can duel-boot with maemo
Nov 12 01:56:43 <lolloo> on my N900
Nov 12 02:31:17 <mvax> is it able to use every n900 resources in meego?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 12 02:59:57 2010