**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Dec 08 02:59:57 2010 Dec 08 03:49:42 write application for meego..should i use meegotouch framework or Qt? Dec 08 03:52:31 I believe the prefered is MTF but I am not sure :D Dec 08 03:55:23 But..wiki said we best use The qt...MTF will drop in future.. Dec 08 03:58:29 derpends on when you want your app to start working, and how long it will be used for Dec 08 04:17:34 it seems like MTF like the Orbit , but i still hope it won't be cancel in the future Dec 08 04:23:43 I think everything is moving to Qt now. Tool are better with the QT Meego SDK anyway Dec 08 04:25:55 any new features on Meego Qt? Dec 08 04:26:46 howdy Dec 08 04:28:40 morning Dec 08 04:32:29 Orbit is dead..and i think MTF will dead in the future...All application build for meego will use Qt... am i correct? Dec 08 04:33:47 where does it say that MTF will de dropped firegnu ? Dec 08 04:35:42 http://meego.com/developers/meego-api Dec 08 04:36:03 the platform api section Dec 08 05:10:45 Does anybody build src.rpm packages using rpmbuild in Ubuntu 10.04, Do we have document/web link which describes setup procedure? Dec 08 05:22:48 haro_: I created a "raw" meego image that I use as a chroot... and I build packages there. I don't there's any way around some manner of virtual/chroot environment. Dec 08 06:26:21 hallo Dec 08 06:58:48 something odd going on in meego-sdk mailing list; I seem to get most(?) mails twice, in a span of maybe 5-6 minutes Dec 08 07:57:49 moin Dec 08 08:23:32 Dear all, where can I download the last MeeGo qemu(kvm) image? Dec 08 08:23:46 I can't find it in the main page Dec 08 08:32:23 kermit`: let me know when you find it :) Dec 08 08:32:41 Right now. Dec 08 08:32:56 Is it the netbook img? Dec 08 08:33:19 netbook seems to have some problems with virtualization Dec 08 08:33:45 I didn't manage to get the UX up so far in vbox. abstract3d did though, but it was fumbly. Dec 08 08:34:01 on the qemu Image I tried back then in vbox it was quite straight forward Dec 08 08:34:11 Then which one should I use with kvm. My cpu is i5 core. Dec 08 08:34:29 I heard that can't be used in vbox. Dec 08 08:34:56 you might need to build one using mic2. that always works. Dec 08 08:35:02 does the wiki have anything? Dec 08 08:35:53 Let me review it again. Dec 08 08:36:15 http://wiki.meego.com/Image_Creation mentions building an image for kvm/qemu Dec 08 08:36:45 Oh, thanks Dec 08 08:36:46 question is which kickstart to use to get 1.1 (or in my case preferably some from the 1.2 branch) Dec 08 08:36:46 i've been kind of 'give me a downloadable meego for a VM' please Dec 08 08:36:52 mode Dec 08 08:36:57 since april Dec 08 08:37:02 Hi! Does anyone know how to launch browser in application? Dec 08 08:37:34 ivrubano, using dbus ? Dec 08 08:38:23 ivrubano, maemo did this: dbus-send --session --print-reply --dest=com.nokia.osso_browser /com/nokia/osso_browser/request com.nokia.osso_browser.load_url "string:http://foobar.com" Dec 08 08:38:25 ivrubano, use anything IPC like should do that. Dec 08 08:38:28 ah same page just lower. 'kickstart files' Dec 08 08:38:42 odin_: yes, but how? Dec 08 08:38:44 odin_: great initiative regarding ipv6 btw Dec 08 08:38:47 http://wiki.meego.com/Image_Creation#KickStart_Files_.28configuration_files_used_for_image_creation.29 Dec 08 08:38:56 ooooo, ipv6, where? Dec 08 08:39:01 * dm8tbr is interested! Dec 08 08:39:06 thanks Stskeeps Dec 08 08:39:43 odin_: if you want a proposal, set up a weekly meeting and get a team started Dec 08 08:39:44 Am I rigth when I do QDBusMessage m = QDBusMessage::createMethodCall( "com.nokia.osso_browser", "/com/nokia/osso_browser/request", "com.nokia.osso_browser", "open_new_window"); Dec 08 08:39:52 odin_: and stage things in community obs Dec 08 08:40:09 kermit`: how bout this: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.1.80.9.20101207.1/netbook/images/meego-netbook-ia32-qemu/ Dec 08 08:40:19 ivrubano, looks dbus on freedesktop.org (its an IPC mechanism), but the above was for maemo, I suspect its not correct for MeeGo but someone will know Dec 08 08:40:22 * dm8tbr gets that image :D Dec 08 08:40:39 odin_: ipv6? where? :) Dec 08 08:41:13 odin_: unfortunately it doesn't work for meego Dec 08 08:41:23 yes IPv6 I posted to meego-dev and created bug#10984 Dec 08 08:41:25 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10984 nor, Undecided, 1.2, darryl.miles, NEW, IPv6 Support declaration Dec 08 08:41:37 My obs is just saying 'unresolable' for all builds, I guess this is because I missed some configuration for obs-worker,, can I get any advice?? Dec 08 08:41:44 Let me try, maybe it's just what I wanted. Thanks you, dm8tbr. Dec 08 08:41:58 oh, I read that mail and liked what I saw Dec 08 08:42:35 need to separate out the minimum deliverables for claiming MeeGo IPv6 support (like marketing bullet point) from all the, "would be nice to have features" I have put up there Dec 08 08:45:12 speaking of community OBS how do I see MeeGo core stuff, like kernel source ? as the projects are all empty and buug#615 is not yet resolved Dec 08 08:45:32 ha fooled the bot :) Dec 08 08:51:54 odin_: it seems like the authorative way is (honestly) to extract srpm Dec 08 08:52:01 odin_: the gitorious kernel tree is broken Dec 08 08:59:15 Morning, all Dec 08 08:59:36 bleh Dec 08 09:02:37 odin_: thanks will look at it. ipv6 is one of my private favourites :) Dec 08 09:03:06 morning Jaffa and CosmoHill Dec 08 09:03:36 hi Dec 08 09:03:36 my laptop went to sleep and killed my server connection :( Dec 08 09:06:50 * timeless_webchat grumbles Dec 08 09:06:58 the daily meego repository is a moving target! Dec 08 09:07:03 yes it is, djuh Dec 08 09:07:04 duh Dec 08 09:07:05 :P Dec 08 09:07:16 welcome to open source Dec 08 09:07:27 odin_: err, closed source has this same annoying feature :) Dec 08 09:07:47 timeless_webchat: Welcome to source! Dec 08 09:07:54 phellarv++ Dec 08 09:07:59 we got fun 'n' games? Dec 08 09:08:10 * timeless_webchat prefers faun and games Dec 08 09:08:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faun_%26_Games Dec 08 09:08:38 iirc i have it on my bookshelf behind me Dec 08 09:09:10 DawnFoster: so, one thing about irc stats, you probably want to add support for aliases. some people are silly and collect a bunch Dec 08 09:09:12 e.g. ab[out] Dec 08 09:09:17 or well... me :) Dec 08 09:09:42 like the most lines per month ? ;-) Dec 08 09:09:58 odin_: did you see DawnFoster 's presentation @meego conf? Dec 08 09:10:08 (or have you seen her monthly reports?) Dec 08 09:10:39 I was not there no, but have seen the first couple of reports (from summer time) Dec 08 09:10:45 timeless_webchat: could you file a bug against me on that issue? Dec 08 09:10:53 * Stskeeps has that task in metrics Dec 08 09:11:01 yeah Dec 08 09:11:40 um Dec 08 09:11:41 maybe? Dec 08 09:11:56 * timeless_webchat tries to remember the magic incantation required to be logged into bugs.meego.com Dec 08 09:12:28 ok, i give up, what's the magic incantation? Dec 08 09:12:55 oingy-boingy ? Dec 08 09:13:22 not working! Dec 08 09:13:31 timeless_webchat: should be the same as your meego account Dec 08 09:13:37 sorry just trying to keep my IRC line count up with yours Dec 08 09:13:41 try using your email instead of your username Dec 08 09:14:04 CosmoHill: oh sure, like i know my password ... Dec 08 09:14:24 bugs.meego.com is the same as meego.com for me, so can you do password recovery on either ? Dec 08 09:14:39 * timeless_webchat launches KeyChain Access.app Dec 08 09:14:45 simple, get the password out of the firefox password bank Dec 08 09:14:47 or that Dec 08 09:14:55 grr Dec 08 09:15:12 chrome did know my password, it's just anal about me properly guessing my username first Dec 08 09:15:52 Stskeeps: ok, so um, what product/component is this? Dec 08 09:16:33 meego community infrastructure maybe Dec 08 09:16:34 brb Dec 08 09:17:16 that's a classification Dec 08 09:18:48 Stskeeps: Is there a good page on ARM hardfp for MeeGo on the wiki? Google can't find it, nor where the TSG meeting minutes are. Dec 08 09:19:21 Jaffa: http://wiki.meego.com/SDK/Toolchains/ToolchainChangeProposal Dec 08 09:19:34 it really could need some more elaboration but ask me anything Dec 08 09:19:45 (as i sit with the baseline for that port) Dec 08 09:21:07 Bug 11034 Submitted Dec 08 09:21:07 Stskeeps: Is Harmattan hardfp; or is that based on the MeeGo 1.2 decision? Dec 08 09:21:09 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11034 enh, Undecided, ---, carsten, NEW, irc stats needs to handle users with multiple nicks Dec 08 09:21:23 bug 606 Dec 08 09:21:25 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=606 maj, Medium, 1.0, michael.meeks, VERI FIXED, Pkcon can not resolve package name when using zypp as its back end Dec 08 09:21:31 cool Dec 08 09:21:59 Jaffa: http://marc.info/?l=meego-dev&m=128819047131135 Dec 08 09:22:07 pretty much states harmattan is hardfp, so Dec 08 09:22:39 Yup - that's what I was remembering, but couldn't find that mail. Ta muchly. Dec 08 09:22:49 * timeless_webchat wonders where irc stats lives these days Dec 08 09:23:16 Stskeeps: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=892169#post892169 ta. Dec 08 09:23:46 Jaffa: we have checked however that it's possible to chroot to a hardfp target from softfp, though Dec 08 09:24:10 kernel abi doesn't change, so Dec 08 09:24:14 Stskeeps: ooh, you can do this in time for http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/irc/data/irssistats.nov.html :) Dec 08 09:24:58 Stskeeps: Intriguing. Is there any impact on IPC (e.g. talking to X)? Dec 08 09:25:42 Jaffa: i haven't tried, but i wouldn't think so Dec 08 09:25:51 Jaffa: it's just on procedure call level, afaik Dec 08 09:26:09 ie, pass floating point values in fpu registers instead of integer registers Dec 08 09:26:09 :P Dec 08 09:26:22 jaffa: the change was important enough that the idiots @nokia were willing to leave the browser broken for a month Dec 08 09:26:38 (the browser being one of the few apps that actually worked before the change) Dec 08 09:28:19 hrm, so 5 threads for downloads is a bad idea on this computer Dec 08 09:34:52 Stskeeps: Where did I find the weekly test-reports again? Dec 08 09:35:08 phellarv: qa-reports.meego.com Dec 08 09:35:15 Stskeeps: Thanks Dec 08 09:41:04 wow, that's depressing Dec 08 09:41:07 i have man lsof Dec 08 09:41:10 i don't have lsof Dec 08 09:42:34 Stskeeps: where do bugs about the lack of x-axis ticks in http://qa-reports.meego.com/1.2/Handset/Acceptance/N900 go? Dec 08 09:43:35 ticks? Dec 08 09:44:23 http://www.google.com/search?q=x-axis+ticks Dec 08 09:45:12 * timeless_webchat considers http://bugs.meego.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=MeeGo%20QA%20Test%20Suite Dec 08 09:45:18 morning \o Dec 08 09:46:28 err, why the heck can't i log into qa-reports.m.c using my standard meego credentials? Dec 08 09:50:59 * CosmoHill wonders why his mac won't spool the next print job until the previous one has finished printing Dec 08 09:52:29 CosmoHill: apple driver or third party? Dec 08 09:53:27 guten print Dec 08 09:53:41 the offical canon driver doens't do cups apparantly Dec 08 09:54:23 Bug 11037 has been added to the database Dec 08 09:54:25 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11037 nor, Undecided, ---, jerry.yu, NEW, Please spell MeeGo with a capital G Dec 08 09:54:26 * timeless_webchat shakes head Dec 08 09:54:46 really, that's a bug? Dec 08 09:55:10 I'm assuming he's talking about official pages and documents Dec 08 09:55:32 cos apart from Is, he'll be lucky to get any capitals out of me Dec 08 10:23:17 Stskeeps: ping Dec 08 10:24:23 * timeless_webchat can't remember how this bundle of code worked Dec 08 10:24:44 anyone here familiar w/ src.rpm and have time to hold my hand? :) Dec 08 10:28:50 is it safe to have, Linux Host, Developer Environment inside vbox (example Ubuntu), and qemu running inside ubuntu? Dec 08 10:29:14 hey vgrade_ lardman \o Dec 08 10:29:27 morning Dec 08 10:29:37 abstract3d, define "safe" Dec 08 10:30:14 safe, like... "is it same as running ubuntu as host os"? Dec 08 10:30:17 fully funcinal? Dec 08 10:30:21 vgrade_, did you ever try to do anything to get the nokia booklet running (its got same HW as the joggler afaik) Dec 08 10:30:31 abstract3d: it won't be as fast as metal Dec 08 10:30:43 but it should work Dec 08 10:31:26 abstract3d: some people claim that doesn't work Dec 08 10:31:27 lcuk: so, how's your RPM FU? Dec 08 10:31:56 * timeless_webchat has used vbox w/ mer and maemo scratchbox Dec 08 10:33:32 lcuk, booklet was running at one point with the EMGD drivers which were released by mistake. Should work with the official EMGD drivers on 1.0. 1.1 support is promised for early Q1 11 but we will proably be near 1.2 by then. EMGD needs to be brought into line with MeeGo Xorg Dec 08 10:33:51 timeless_webchat, about as strong as my unicycle riding foo. i can use it to search and install stuff and add repos etc but nothing technical Dec 08 10:34:59 * timeless_webchat sighs Dec 08 10:35:03 * timeless_webchat kicks something Dec 08 10:35:09 roger, thanks vgrade_ - would it be possible to write that up that cleanly and give specific links to download locations? Dec 08 10:37:09 odin_: just a brief check if I misunderstood things: priority 4over6 - what is that supposed to mean? Dec 08 10:37:29 lcuk, I have some notes here, http://wiki.meego.com/User:Vgrade Dec 08 10:37:46 vgrade_, thats a great start, thanks! Dec 08 10:37:48 yes if DNS records are available for both A and AAAA then have applications prefer one over the other Dec 08 10:38:03 lcuk, download locations are a bit of an issue as we cannot redistribute the EMGD Dec 08 10:38:03 hi lcuk Dec 08 10:38:47 vgrade_, thats a different bridge, knowing its at least feasible (with roadblocks) is better than thinking its not at all. Dec 08 10:39:07 this could be simulated via a conman proxy fudge, i.e. query both but only return A to application, or could be some tweak to runtime environment (like Qt network connectivity) Dec 08 10:39:57 it could also be done via ordering the reply data to user-space, gethostbyname() ? Dec 08 10:40:07 anyhows that kind of thing Dec 08 10:40:26 lcuk, if anyone want to donate a booklet to me I will see what we can do with 1.0, 1.1 and trunk by downgrading the xserver Dec 08 10:40:27 odin_: yes, but which one should be preferred in your view Dec 08 10:41:25 let me find out for you vgrade_ :) Dec 08 10:42:05 well that is to be discussed/considered and looked into :P i.e. pros/cons and amount of effort, I prefer the idea of no need to modify an application, it should just do the natural thing and interate the glibc returned data in the order given Dec 08 10:42:39 unless of course, that specific application has been configured in some special way to override (but that is upto application/user arrangement) Dec 08 10:42:58 and therefore outside the scope of "meego system" Dec 08 10:43:02 odin_ =~ s/interate/iterate/ Dec 08 10:43:37 yeah sorry too much programming Dec 08 10:43:53 too much calculus =? Dec 08 10:44:41 nop Dec 08 10:48:20 lardman, belated pong! are you in winddown mode now, semi holidays and all that? :D Dec 08 10:51:13 nah, just thought I'd take a few days off this week as I'm knackered Dec 08 10:51:39 that doesn't sound like a bad idea Dec 08 10:58:47 odin_: I'm asking because preference of ipv4 over ipv6 would be considered broken. if a vendor does that in their own build. their problem. meego as a distribution should not even consider this slippery slope Dec 08 10:59:25 its more a user-set preference to work around broken IPv6 connectivity zones Dec 08 11:02:57 does conman and whatever already do automatic location detection... i.e. from available WLANs, GPS, location services, whatever, to then switch over connectivity profiles? it doesn't seem to lock onto hidden WLAN like Maemo5 N900 does, from my testing so far Dec 08 11:08:13 DawnFoster, ping me later please :) (after you get in work of course) Dec 08 11:12:05 * timeless_webchat sighs Dec 08 11:17:39 xephyr is the way to emulate UI without intel graphics @host & GL accell? Dec 08 11:36:22 wats the i686 reference device used in Intel for Meego ? Dec 08 11:37:03 lbt_away, is {api,build}.opensuse.org due to continue to run off the same IP address ? i.e. can each SSL service not be on a unique IP and also is there a ticket in to fix the reverse IP address ? alternately issue yourself a multi-domain SSL cert with your own CA and public the CA in meego package Dec 08 11:38:40 lokesh, I would hazard the lenovo s10-3t ideapad that was given to meegoconf participants Dec 08 11:38:41 Duh I mean {api,build}.pub.meego.com Dec 08 11:39:08 odin_: You can run build and api on different ips, but why would you want that? Dec 08 11:39:10 lcuk : I am talking about the handset reference device :) Dec 08 11:39:41 the only x86 handset seen has been the aava I believe Dec 08 11:40:32 lcuk : ok Dec 08 11:40:34 X-Fade, so HTTPS works like it should, with Common Name X.509 validation and reverse DNS check Dec 08 11:40:53 odin_: Cert Alternative names work fine? Dec 08 11:41:37 CA = Certificate Authority (you issue your toplevel self-signed X.509 cert, then just get all SDK users to install it as a package where 'osc' will see it) Dec 08 11:42:11 odin_: I don't understand the problem? Which app doesn't accept our SSL cert? Dec 08 11:42:28 X-Fade, the HTTPS service is not setup correctly (IMHO) Dec 08 11:42:43 odin_: Again, which app complains about it :) Dec 08 11:43:08 for me, osc for a start Dec 08 11:43:14 wget Dec 08 11:43:31 odin_: Which os? Dec 08 11:43:48 the defacto standard is 1 unique IP per HTTPS service, with forward and reverse DNS setup to the Common Name in the certificate Dec 08 11:43:57 MeeGo 1.1.1 Dec 08 11:45:20 if you use a godaddy.com cert (and pay someone else) or issue your own CA, that point doesn't matter if the above condition is not met, but can cut down someones costs Dec 08 11:50:35 there are/where moves to allow HTTPS virtual hosts but its like IPv6, no one can be bothered to do it, there are also multi-domain certs for mega-bucks when another IP is cheaper, so the defacto standard above still stands for best interoperability Dec 08 11:50:58 odin_: https vhosting is deployed.. Dec 08 11:51:00 i.e. web-browsers have support but I wouldn't expect the same of HTTPS client libraries for tooling Dec 08 11:51:24 timeless_webchat, yes and IPv6 is :) Dec 08 11:51:42 * timeless_webchat ponders Dec 08 11:51:52 * timeless_webchat thinks vhosting is probably better deployed than ipv6 Dec 08 11:52:14 when a web-browser is your only client I agree, but its not for OBS API webserver Dec 08 11:52:25 file a bug Dec 08 11:53:08 xephyr is the way to emulate UI without intel graphics @host & GL accell? Dec 08 11:56:43 timeless_webchat: @wk? Dec 08 11:57:19 running late Dec 08 11:57:22 you? Dec 08 11:58:09 around kamppi Dec 08 11:58:15 pizza? Dec 08 11:58:19 hrm Dec 08 11:58:23 indian buffet? Dec 08 11:58:29 pizza hut Dec 08 11:58:44 yeah, pizza hut Dec 08 11:58:49 k Dec 08 11:59:09 lardman: this is just in time scheduling =) Dec 08 11:59:40 * sp3000 is there in 3 Dec 08 11:59:42 and it support pizza-preemption Dec 08 11:59:46 in 5 Dec 08 12:00:49 pizza. nature's perfect food. Dec 08 12:01:28 so we had another person crash and burn today trying to get meego running in a VM Dec 08 12:05:55 pupnik: meego is running in VM, but it's a bit slow Dec 08 12:08:27 abstract3d: from what i've seen the performance is adequate for development and testing Dec 08 12:09:43 however a person new to meego, wanting to try it out, currently isn't going to find a nice working downloadable vm image with getting started instructions Dec 08 12:09:59 getting to that point should be a priority Dec 08 12:17:51 odin_: I just checked on my meego netbook. But both wget and osc don't complain about https. Dec 08 12:19:12 wget https://api.pub.meego.com/build/MeeGo:1.1:Core/standard/i586/_repository/rpm ? Dec 08 12:22:05 odin_: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=409938 Dec 08 12:22:33 odin_: That basically is a bug in wget which got fixed. But wget guys don't like doing releases it seems :) Dec 08 12:23:53 Hmm ok but the point being made is why make things harder than things need to be, i.e. if it was a commercial setup I'd not have entertained the use virtual IPs for HTTPS myself, as I would have thought maximum interoperability being a useful goal Dec 08 12:24:25 now we need to go and fix every app, and wait for releases :) yay for open source Dec 08 12:24:26 odin_: Yes, of course. But this is a pretty valid setup. Browsers don't complain for example. Dec 08 12:24:36 odin_: Since 1990 or so :) Dec 08 12:24:49 hmm more like ~2003 I'd say Dec 08 12:25:36 Well yeah, ok.. But anyway. Dec 08 12:41:02 thp: ping Dec 08 13:08:31 Stskeeps, so OBS builds the package from source to binary, then uses that binary and compares it against previous binary to identify if it needs to be built? Dec 08 13:08:49 lcuk: no, if it is different from the previous build Dec 08 13:09:07 Stskeeps, but it has to be built to know if its different Dec 08 13:09:10 surely? Dec 08 13:09:32 yes Dec 08 13:09:34 or just compare source code itself .. which both cases old and new should have macros and not actual dates Dec 08 13:09:52 but the big load is if you have a package and the packages that depend on your packages has to rebuilt Dec 08 13:10:44 hmm... OBS knows when you have made a commit on your package and when one of its dependencies has been built into a new version Dec 08 13:11:16 will the pkg's themselves be in format .rpm? Dec 08 13:11:38 no a collection of arbitrary files, usually at least one *.spec Dec 08 13:12:00 Stskeeps, i understand the point about rebuilding descendent packages if main one changes, but to have to build main one and compare binary seems a bit silly when its the source code changes that matter? Dec 08 13:12:01 but also deb/kiwi and other formats Dec 08 13:12:59 lcuk: your resulting binary can change if the packages you dep on change Dec 08 13:13:21 compare output binaries, I guess that only make sense to work out if there was a real affecting change and to bump the 'build number' (is that the name for is? 1.2.3-X) ? Dec 08 13:13:31 sure, a cascade but the same logic is in place for all of the packages in obs isnt it? Dec 08 13:14:02 a great big dependency tree Dec 08 13:14:53 i fail to see why it has to spend time building the package itself to compare binary to binary Dec 08 13:15:41 bootstrap changes ? stabilising gcc/binutils and such, as well as trying not to bump the revision/build-number unnecessary ? Dec 08 13:15:43 lcuk: it has to check if it's changed, because then it needs to trigger additional rebuilds of other packages Dec 08 13:16:00 odin_, same dependency chain surely? Dec 08 13:16:33 there are 2 issues here... 1) what kicks off a build and 2) what makes that build a new revision 1.2.3-X bump Dec 08 13:16:48 Issue 1: OBS knows when you have made a commit on your package and when one of its dependencies has been built into a new version Dec 08 13:17:11 This sounds similar to what we're doing at work with Ivy, our build system and JAR checksums. Dec 08 13:17:12 Stskeeps, surely OBS does not rebuild (for instance) entire Qt just because I ask it to rebuild my package depending upon it Dec 08 13:17:12 Issue 2: Compare the output binaries to see if the result is different from the last published version Dec 08 13:18:12 lcuk: no, it's reverse Dec 08 13:19:22 Stskeeps, ? Dec 08 13:20:28 actually is it an "output binaries" compare, was in executables or a complete RPM compare (which makes sense, as a documentation change should also bump the version) Dec 08 13:23:03 * Stskeeps submits his idea about alice@meego.com Dec 08 13:23:29 http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-December/002787.html Dec 08 13:23:44 lcuk: But if Qt uses random things inside the binary which change each build; you get a new version number and everything spinning Dec 08 13:25:03 Stskeeps: We had this because Groovy .class files have a random timestamp in them (which Java .class files don't). We ended up making our comparator explicitly ignore them in the structure of a parsed .class file; but it was hacky. Not sure you can do something similar for __DATE__ and __TIME__ *post* build. Dec 08 13:25:19 Jaffa: yeah, that's what i'm worried about.. Dec 08 13:25:58 Stskeeps: Similarly, you can't replace all __DATE__ and __TIME__ usages (or redefine the macros) because there *might*(?) be a valid case which does have a material effect. Dec 08 13:26:30 Stskeeps: Not necessarily optimal code, admittedly; but meaningful in some way. Dec 08 13:26:37 Jaffa: i've seen it used as initial vector for security.. Dec 08 13:26:45 * Jaffa nods. That kind of thing. Dec 08 13:26:59 Not sure it's great, to be honest from a security PoV; but gives some kind of initial value Dec 08 13:27:25 * Jaffa would suggest coding standard which suggests they aren't used and starting to patch away the ones which do so trivially/incorrectly. Dec 08 13:27:40 Jaffa, strictly, comparing build binaries is only necessary if there were no way to have computers track dependency graphs Dec 08 13:28:00 and if computers cannot be used to track trees of things then WTF are we doing here Dec 08 13:28:07 lcuk: No - because you don't want to respin your child projects if there's no material change in the output. Dec 08 13:28:34 lcuk: The point is that there *is* a tracked dependency graph, but you don't want to do unnecessary work (bumps version numbers, takes time, increases risk, uses resources) Dec 08 13:30:23 lcuk: the point of comparing binaries is not to catch changes which are missed by the dependency graphs but to filter out trivial changes which would otherwise cause unnecessary rebuilds Dec 08 13:30:33 What he said. Dec 08 13:31:06 ... unnecessary rebuilds due to version bumps.... with the unnecessary rebuilds being those packages based on this package ? Dec 08 13:31:18 odin_: Correct Dec 08 13:31:20 dependent on, yes Dec 08 13:32:06 odin_: i.e. if someone changes the Qt documentation; that might result in a publishing of a new website, but shouldn't cause a rebuild of myqtapp Dec 08 13:32:06 but a documentation change should also cause a version bump (i.e. the term "compare binaries" sounds too narrow) Dec 08 13:32:32 odin_: Depends on the change Dec 08 13:33:08 odin_: Documentation with an additional fullstop or spelling correction is still valid and hasn't (if the docs are only published on docs.meego.com, say) resulted in any packagaing changes. Dec 08 13:33:39 I'm claiming I don't see why it should, what you a really trying to cut down, is the ripple effect of binary changes (which are most changes seen), maybe it would be a major issue if documentation was generated at built time Dec 08 13:34:01 documentation is just once such example Dec 08 13:34:05 odin_: Indeed, that is the aim. Dec 08 13:34:18 the real question is how do you know which files are used by dependent packages? Dec 08 13:34:34 (AIUI, and is certainly the reason we do it at work) Dec 08 13:34:55 ali1234: What we do is compare the checksum of every file in the JAR - well, we produce a checksum for the JAR contents as a whole Dec 08 13:35:24 Excluding certain things, which is relatively straightforward as we're the upstream and control the set of packages (and structure and build system) Dec 08 13:36:03 ok, but with the Qt example, what if there is a package which uses the documentation in some way, such that it has to be rebuilt if the doc changes? Dec 08 13:36:53 ali1234: Presumably in that case it's depending on libqt-doc or something; and the Qt documentation is a published package in its own right. Dec 08 13:37:05 ali1234: Or it's a "binary artefact" of the build. Dec 08 13:37:16 i.e. in the binary package Dec 08 13:37:55 a better example that docs is eg whitespace cleanup patches Dec 08 13:38:15 that shouldn't affect the output at all and should not trigger rebuilds Dec 08 13:38:29 ali1234: Yes, a perfect example. Dec 08 13:38:54 ali1234: Tidying source formatting in a non-binary affecting way should be encouraged to prevent broken window syndrome Dec 08 14:11:01 anybody knows if aava is being sold? Dec 08 14:11:08 or released, already? Dec 08 14:11:22 I thought it's been out for a considerable time Dec 08 14:11:37 with that ~1700USD pricetag Dec 08 14:12:01 1700USD wow Dec 08 14:13:49 damn Dec 08 14:13:53 that's high Dec 08 14:14:05 is the hw really that open ? :) Dec 08 14:14:17 maybe nokia will open up the n900 wide open Dec 08 14:14:28 so people could actually do something with it Dec 08 14:15:10 what parts of the n900 are still closed? Dec 08 14:16:17 3D chip interface? Dec 08 14:16:26 ali1234: for Maemo or MeeGo? Dec 08 14:17:07 for the hardware Dec 08 14:17:46 ali1234: the graphics chip driver and some firmware are closed, ask Stskeeps for details Dec 08 14:17:56 3d is not nokias to open up Dec 08 14:19:17 true Dec 08 14:19:29 bme, sgx, firmware Dec 08 14:19:34 for bt and wlan Dec 08 14:19:41 There was one more thing, can't remember what it is .. Dec 08 14:19:49 camera? Dec 08 14:19:55 or fmtx? Dec 08 14:19:57 No Dec 08 14:20:02 charging circuitry? Dec 08 14:20:11 Bostik: that's bme Dec 08 14:20:12 bme is the charging management bit. Dec 08 14:20:15 ah, thank you Dec 08 14:20:34 You're better off asking Stskeeps he knows it off by heart :D Dec 08 14:20:35 X-Fade, are all the MeeGo:* projects on cbuild meant to be empty? or is that some ACL thingy ? Dec 08 15:03:56 * odin_ grumbles at the channel churn Dec 08 15:11:06 http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11053 Dec 08 15:11:21 mmm no bot... "Extras and Garage need an agreed name" Dec 08 15:13:56 What's wrong with "Extras"? Dec 08 15:16:54 well, what's wrong with "Garage"? :-P Dec 08 15:17:25 reminds me of garage.maemo.org with it's 90's forge Dec 08 15:17:26 :P Dec 08 15:22:18 What is "Garage" supposed to mean in this context? Dec 08 15:22:33 It brings to mind things that are being worked on and fixed up, but not ready for real use Dec 08 15:22:38 Maybe that is intended? Dec 08 15:29:30 fiferboy: garage music - stuff you knocked up in your shed ;) Dec 08 15:29:42 MeeGo Shed Dec 08 15:29:44 :P Dec 08 15:31:50 Tehee, yeah :) Dec 08 15:32:17 i do kinda like that idea - but it might be a little bit overly English in nature... Dec 08 15:39:26 MeeGo Bikeshed? Dec 08 15:41:27 GAN900, shouldn't it be a cyclehut? Dec 08 15:44:29 lcuk, no, green! Dec 08 15:44:32 MeeGo Den ? Dec 08 15:49:33 lbt, Ping? Dec 08 15:49:44 dneary: pong Dec 08 15:56:06 lbt, help... why is this empty ? https://build.pub.meego.com/project/show?project=MeeGo%3A1.1%3ACore re: http://www.pastie.org/1358931 Dec 08 15:58:24 odin_: binary rpm imports Dec 08 16:00:35 odin_: it's not actually empty Dec 08 16:07:05 lbt: Can I just say "Extras" and move on? ;-) Dec 08 16:07:18 hehe Dec 08 16:09:55 Seriously, though, what's wrong with Extras? Dec 08 16:10:18 lbt: It's "extra" stuff. "Garage" has to be explained and is a legacy of Moblin being a hacker's paradise (AIUI) Dec 08 16:10:54 well, we've got Extras in the OBS currently Dec 08 16:13:03 hey lbt Dec 08 16:13:09 o/ Dec 08 16:13:26 I think if I work hard I should be able to get one assignment done by tonight Dec 08 16:19:52 * timeless_webchat needs help Dec 08 16:19:58 anyone here vaguely familiar w/ IETF? Dec 08 16:39:20 I swear ms word hates me sometimes Dec 08 17:20:25 lbt: halo, a couple days ago I request to join into OBS for "renegonzalezsalinas" account Dec 08 17:20:35 do you have any update? Dec 08 17:21:11 is this the party? Dec 08 17:21:15 done I think Dec 08 17:22:06 well I'm not able to login https://build.pub.meego.com/; Dec 08 17:22:12 hmmm... if lbt is here then it's work, not a party :p Dec 08 17:22:16 lo texrat Dec 08 17:22:25 lo Stskeeps Dec 08 17:22:32 how is it going? Dec 08 17:22:41 didn't feel like goign to work today, still getting over flu Dec 08 17:22:46 Rene_gs: ok ... busy now... ping me in 60m Dec 08 17:22:51 yay party! Dec 08 17:22:56 so working on MeeGo policy and process stuff Dec 08 17:23:20 I'm in now Dec 08 17:23:31 thanks guys, BR. Dec 08 17:23:55 wearing out the wiki today! :D Dec 08 17:24:18 Rene_gs: good :) Dec 08 17:24:19 so, sorry for all the update notices some of you are getting Dec 08 17:24:53 and Ststkeeps: we need to elevate visibility of your best practices page Dec 08 17:25:25 Texrat: feel free to do whatever you want with it Dec 08 17:25:35 Texrat: give me some feedback on my Alice idea in return ;) Dec 08 17:26:10 Stskeeps I am still pondering the alice thing, making sure I fully understand Dec 08 17:26:17 is alice a proxy? Dec 08 17:26:59 Texrat: alice's deep down a mailbox that everyone CC's.. on top of that you layer analysis and allow people to search/subcribe Dec 08 17:27:02 subscribe Dec 08 17:27:09 alice is a special data mining bot Dec 08 17:27:25 ah! thanks berndhs Dec 08 17:27:40 that sums it up well Dec 08 17:27:42 to get stats on who mails to whom (correct my grammar) Dec 08 17:27:44 Texrat: because there will always be discussions away from mailing lists, but how do we make those processes/discussions transparent Dec 08 17:27:57 I agree there's a big need Stskeeps Dec 08 17:28:13 next step: figure out best way of poking people to take action... Dec 08 17:28:22 so I think but adding alice to the CC, you would say " record these connections " or something Dec 08 17:28:36 so many wanting, so few stepping up... Dec 08 17:29:16 Texrat: well, the 'good' thing about alice is that technically, it can start tomorrow provided we have a mail alias saving the things getting sent to it :P Dec 08 17:29:28 but I think one conclusion from meeting brainstorm was dead-on: many just need to know they CAN Dec 08 17:29:40 Stskeeps: alice just keeps the addresses, doesn't do anything with content, is that correct ? Dec 08 17:29:59 berndhs: it could do something about content - note the use cases Dec 08 17:30:12 maybe the name should be alice_bot in case a real Alice wanted that account :D Dec 08 17:30:26 'i'd like to see communication to-from meego architects as that is basically transparency on the architecture process' Dec 08 17:30:54 Stskeeps agreed that architect activity needs to be elevated Dec 08 17:31:00 well, it goes for anything :) Dec 08 17:31:05 yeah Dec 08 17:31:22 hey DawnFoster Dec 08 17:31:34 in addition to that, let's say searches for ARM discussions with toolchain guys and see what was discussed etc.. Dec 08 17:31:40 but I see a lot of comments about architecture needs and questions hitting a dead end Dec 08 17:31:42 basically always being able to be 'in the loop' Dec 08 17:32:08 it could be really useful to just find a group you want to talk to Dec 08 17:32:23 like "how is working on libSlicedBread" Dec 08 17:32:31 s/how/who/ Dec 08 17:32:32 berndhs meant: like "who is working on libSlicedBread" Dec 08 17:32:33 Stskeeps I am 100% behind anything that 1) minimizes noise 2) increases transparency 3) targets necessary stakeholders Dec 08 17:33:38 :nod: Dec 08 17:35:04 so if i understand correctly Stskeeps, if I invoke a targeted keyword in a discussion, and alice is included in cc, then that keyword leverages the communication out to certain interested parties? Dec 08 17:35:29 i thought it was just a catchall to add to conversations Dec 08 17:35:57 maybe...? Dec 08 17:36:05 as lcuk said, it's a catchall helping to archive the Dec 08 17:36:09 more human friendly than transparency_list@meego.com but to same effect Dec 08 17:36:21 oh, ok, just for archival Dec 08 17:36:22 conversations that go on outside mailing lists Dec 08 17:36:26 post processing can be done afterwards Dec 08 17:36:32 I misunderstood, thanks Dec 08 17:36:46 so no spawning additional live emails Dec 08 17:37:00 Stskeeps, well currently would you just start adding meego-dev@ to conversations? Dec 08 17:37:15 Texrat: well, that's the start - on top of that archive you can do interesting things, like, subscribe to conversations with filters like "discussions from-to architects" Dec 08 17:37:19 or the specific account related to conv Dec 08 17:37:38 ok, the subscription aspect sounds interesting Dec 08 17:37:55 Texrat: or start mapping the actual communications going on, such as http://www.jibble.org/shakespeare/images/a_and_c.xml-00000138.png Dec 08 17:38:04 Stskeeps, which server side MTA offers that capability? Dec 08 17:38:13 related question: would adding a link to the archive in email footer be a good idea, or not? Dec 08 17:38:15 lcuk: none, but get me a mailbox in mbox format.. Dec 08 17:38:38 its not you I am worried about! Dec 08 17:39:04 i think most folks here have done mail processing once its in, but its the subscription aspect Dec 08 17:39:07 Stskeeps: is this bot already in existence? Dec 08 17:39:25 sivang: no Dec 08 17:39:42 Stskeeps: and the analysis code? Dec 08 17:39:50 sivang: well, graphing is 'easy' Dec 08 17:40:01 Texrat: the reasoning is that in practice, you can't keep up with all the communications in a project like this.. but you can subscribe to the areas that interest you or 'where you'd like to be in the loop' Dec 08 17:40:15 just start adding the related already existing ML to conversations? Dec 08 17:40:29 understood Stskeeps... do you have a response to my question above? Dec 08 17:40:33 if people are involved in a packaging topic, add the packaging ML? Dec 08 17:41:17 lcuk: well, in truth we'll end up with thousands of topics and occasionally, conversations are a mix of packaging, architecture and maybe community Dec 08 17:41:38 yeah, few conversations are hardwired to a single area Dec 08 17:41:47 there's no strict team boundaries, so Dec 08 17:42:05 Texrat: i thought there was email header thing with archive, but i might be wrong.. Dec 08 17:42:08 I think by looking at who is talking about topics you can find out what topics are related Dec 08 17:42:30 Stskeeps I'll look again... I was focusing on footer Dec 08 17:43:00 i'm trying to compile http://zchydem.enume.net/2010/04/08/my-first-qt-quick-app-quickflickr/ and it has "#include " which is missing. where to find? (i'm using qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.1 because qt from meego-sdk appears to be missing a lot of QML/declarative stuff and results in even more compile errors) Dec 08 17:43:25 Stskeeps no archive link in visible header (for me)... I really think it should be added to footer Dec 08 17:43:39 maybe I'll file a bug Dec 08 17:44:57 Stskeeps speaks out of experience, and I must say trying to follow what's been going together with the existence of forums which don't make it easy, Dec 08 17:45:02 alice is very much needed. Dec 08 17:45:37 in practice you can 'spy' on a couple of people's discussion traffic of your interest and find out what's going on :P Dec 08 17:46:02 Stskeeps: I'm sort'a doing that now, but it is non trivial and consumes time. Dec 08 17:46:18 so I've taught myself to actually look for responses from project drivers first, Dec 08 17:46:23 rather than just reading a full thread. Dec 08 17:46:34 reaading everything is just not possible Dec 08 17:46:55 i had ~200 mails waiting for me after ignoring my mailbox for a day. Dec 08 17:46:56 and I'm also sub'd to everything ML in meego, and watch the new messages when they arrive Dec 08 17:46:59 sivang nor practical ;) Dec 08 17:47:06 and not spam Dec 08 17:47:06 :P Dec 08 17:47:12 but when you are away... Dec 08 17:47:20 there's no practical way to go over the backlog Dec 08 17:47:33 or even wade through to find the responses of the drivers, so forth Dec 08 17:47:40 Stskeeps: yes, exactly Dec 08 17:47:41 "mark all as read", they'll send an email again if its important :) Dec 08 17:48:13 I suggest Alice especially focus on member names invoked in email body... too difficult though? Dec 08 17:48:13 adeus: do that and you become ill informed/ lacking pieces of knowledge etc Dec 08 17:48:32 Texrat: in practice people use first names Dec 08 17:48:50 understood, Stskeeps, just brainstorming out loud Dec 08 17:48:52 which is problematic since finns have very common first names ;) Dec 08 17:48:53 Texrat: true :) Dec 08 17:49:05 Stskeeps, wont the same people who you feel are avoiding ML just continue to avoid alice? Dec 08 17:49:12 Stskeeps: yes, and we've already made some mistakes :) Dec 08 17:49:18 Stskeeps maybe just focus on account names if invoked... Dec 08 17:49:23 Stskeeps, I like it. Dec 08 17:49:31 I like it as well Dec 08 17:49:38 lcuk: i don't think they're doing it out of malice, more out of practicality in order to get stuff done Dec 08 17:49:40 But I hope it doesn't encourage off-list communication TOO much. Dec 08 17:49:40 but no idea how something like that can be implemented Dec 08 17:50:02 GAN900, Stskeeps is trying to do it to capture stuff thats offlist already Dec 08 17:50:03 alice can check if the email was sent to other cc's , including MLs and reject if it was not Dec 08 17:50:12 Stskeeps, and people not encouraging a new way of working. Dec 08 17:50:19 lcuk, I get that. Dec 08 17:50:38 also, if MLs has a lot of noise, you're more likely to 'unintentionally' ignoring it.. Dec 08 17:50:39 lcuk, but I'd rather not see MORE communication go off-list if not needed. Dec 08 17:50:40 I would love it to extract stuff out of the forums as well Dec 08 17:50:47 Stskeeps: true Dec 08 17:50:59 GAN900: how much of it is offlist at the moment? Dec 08 17:51:03 on what areas? Dec 08 17:51:09 sivang, no idea. Dec 08 17:51:13 I thought that most important stuff are on MLs Dec 08 17:51:33 But given what I know about Nokia and what I've experienced with Intel, I think a lot. Dec 08 17:51:43 But it's off-list, so who can guess? Dec 08 17:51:51 right Dec 08 17:52:12 hence me suggesting mapping the world outside mailing lists :) Dec 08 17:52:20 Right Dec 08 17:52:22 I was wrong in understanding the purpose, I was sure this was to enable easy follow up on the MLs Dec 08 17:52:42 but mapping the forums would already be great help, I can't seem to make myself comfortable with them Dec 08 17:52:44 sivang I misunderstood too at first Dec 08 17:52:52 Stskeeps, would the archive be browsable? Dec 08 17:53:03 * timeless_webchat cries Dec 08 17:53:11 i seem to be racing w/ a file system Dec 08 17:53:13 GAN900: why not? Dec 08 17:53:15 * timeless_webchat hates file systems Dec 08 17:53:21 * Texrat throws kleenex box at timeless_webchat Dec 08 17:53:24 * sivang is amazed at how diverse genres of music are on SuomiPOP net radio Dec 08 17:53:37 timeless_webchat: don't cry, we're here for you :) Dec 08 17:53:40 Stskeeps, so you get CCed into a discussion ongoing without alice@ in it Dec 08 17:53:49 are you going to blanket add her to it? Dec 08 17:53:53 * Texrat yells "Jackwagon!" across IRC Dec 08 17:54:00 lcuk: that's my idea Dec 08 17:54:44 lcuk: there is a reason why i talk about things being 'socially acceptable', hence me discussing the idea Dec 08 17:55:05 timeless_webchat: sun's? Dec 08 17:55:06 who is alice? Dec 08 17:55:10 ec2 Dec 08 17:55:12 well I am thinking of the talk of things being multitple topics Dec 08 17:55:17 RST38h: or, who the %$^ is alice :-) Dec 08 17:55:23 timeless_webchat: I stay away from that Dec 08 17:55:27 are you confident enough with yourself that you understand each subject to know it can be made public Dec 08 17:55:30 RST38h: meego-community idea Dec 08 17:55:51 "All the young girls love Alice" -Elton John Dec 08 17:55:55 Sts: You want a bot answering developers requests like "please open source ..."? =) Dec 08 17:56:06 RST38h: no Dec 08 17:56:17 RST38h, would probably be more responsive. ;) Dec 08 17:56:29 lol GAN900 Dec 08 17:56:52 GAN900: I forgot to watch that thread... Dec 08 17:57:12 * sivang tries to bring up the thread Dec 08 17:57:29 sivang, only forum on Talk worth looking at is Community Dec 08 17:57:52 GAN900: so I've seen last nigiht, yes Dec 08 17:58:12 lcuk: well, have to base on meego goals and what we market ourselves with.. meego is default open - so in 95% of cases, there should be no problem.. Dec 08 17:58:15 ack! breakfast attack... Dec 08 17:58:27 and in the other 5%? Dec 08 17:58:31 lcuk: so i would suggest opt-out instead of opt-in Dec 08 17:58:38 programmers don't need any design Dec 08 17:58:59 you can easily saved two days of designing by coding two weks! Dec 08 17:59:02 opt-out 'magic word' ('off-record', etc) in mail would make alice ignore the mail Dec 08 17:59:04 weeks Dec 08 17:59:14 Stskeeps, but if you jump onto a topic half way through Dec 08 17:59:22 after 30 other mails Dec 08 17:59:28 and suddenly open it to alice@ Dec 08 17:59:55 * timeless_webchat wonders what an alice@ is Dec 08 18:00:09 what is the rule for making a new dialog appear on it's own screen rather than overlaying the parent app (Gtk) Dec 08 18:00:12 Alison_Chaiken ? Dec 08 18:00:19 a pseudo address Stskeeps is talking about to make sure "off-list" mails are made public Dec 08 18:00:43 (actually I *want* it to overlay, not be on a "new screen") Dec 08 18:00:50 timeless_webchat: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-December/002787.html Dec 08 18:01:34 timeless_webchat: an imaginary bot that will help us link and track off ml communications. Dec 08 18:02:05 there's really also posts that doesn't lend itself to mailing lists at times Dec 08 18:02:31 but are still part of project process/progress/discussion Dec 08 18:02:40 cute Dec 08 18:02:45 "good luck with that" Dec 08 18:03:03 basically adding alice says "archive this mail thread" Dec 08 18:03:44 if you can remember about Bob from Z company and CC him to keep him in the loop, you can remember alice :) Dec 08 18:03:47 is my thought Dec 08 18:04:21 sorry for the basic question, but what's the default media player for Meego? Dec 08 18:04:27 lardman: what UX? Dec 08 18:04:32 handheld Dec 08 18:04:42 meegotouch-music or something.. Dec 08 18:04:46 reference impl Dec 08 18:04:47 hmm Dec 08 18:04:53 do you know what the backend is? Dec 08 18:05:06 gstreamer, i suppose Dec 08 18:05:07 lardman: the source is in git I think Dec 08 18:05:21 ok, will have a look-see Dec 08 18:05:23 thanks chaps Dec 08 18:05:59 Texrat, since you are around Dec 08 18:06:24 I'm not a round, I'm triangular Dec 08 18:06:47 earlier today, there was a short discussion with vgrade_ about the nokia booket Dec 08 18:06:50 booklet Dec 08 18:07:25 where he said he could attempt to get meego running on it Dec 08 18:07:26 lcuk, if anyone want to donate a booklet to me I will see what we can do with 1.0, 1.1 and trunk by downgrading the xserver Dec 08 18:07:27 CosmoHill, just back from getting coffee. G'morning to you. Dec 08 18:07:34 hello Dec 08 18:07:37 which ties in with the device program somewhat Dec 08 18:07:51 if I work hard I might be able to finish my assignment by tonight :) Dec 08 18:08:32 http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/latest.log.html#t2010-12-08T12:37:21 Dec 08 18:09:24 I was going to talk with DawnFoster and qgil but you seem to be championing this muchly :) Dec 08 18:09:55 championing who and what? Dec 08 18:10:22 qgil, last few lines of my scrollback explains Dec 08 18:10:41 i didn't see you had /joined! Dec 08 18:11:02 lcuk I am not really championing as much as contributing Dec 08 18:11:24 the program had lagged, TI made an offer, so I am just pushing again Dec 08 18:11:41 lcuk: downgrading xserver is easy, just it's not really meego anymore :P Dec 08 18:11:58 On Activities Dawn or Quim is shown as champion for device program-- forget which offhand Dec 08 18:12:30 Ah, it's DawnFoster, lcuk Dec 08 18:12:39 I'm just helping her Dec 08 18:13:00 its a shame because the nokia booklet should be working! it was aapo who mentioned it this morning and so I asked vgrade and got a nice response and that request for device to try and push it forward Dec 08 18:13:18 never say never, lcuk Dec 08 18:13:30 let's find a way to make that happen Dec 08 18:14:18 lcuk: the problem is the (damn) gma500, so until intel release processes (not a team related to meego) sync up with meego release schedule for it, there's no sustainable solution Dec 08 18:14:21 :P Dec 08 18:15:06 Stskeeps, yeah the drivers have been a bit of a facepalm for a long time now Dec 08 18:15:16 are there any specific differences if i put my app into the nokia, or the intel store?? Dec 08 18:15:32 anyway, i am vanishing Dec 08 18:15:35 \o ttyl Dec 08 18:16:44 * Texrat draws on lcuk's face with marker while he sleeps Dec 08 18:17:14 oops, lcuk beard defense fully functional! Dec 08 18:18:48 for those who have not seen, I am moving Meegon request process to wiki, to make it easier to manage Dec 08 18:19:05 but let me finish populating table first :D Dec 08 18:27:54 heheh http://www.google.com/trends?q=wikileaks+ddos Dec 08 18:27:57 mastercard.com STILL down? Dec 08 18:30:08 hey pupnik Dec 08 18:37:31 Is there any good docs on using cbuild? Dec 08 18:41:10 I may just be blind, but is there a list somewhere of the default applications in a given Meego profile? Dec 08 18:42:10 ah, this looks promising http://wiki.meego.com/Handset_Program Dec 08 18:43:11 qgil thanks for feedback on slogan proposal... responded Dec 08 18:43:49 Texrat: thanks for the energies :) Dec 08 18:44:04 qgil well I have to do SOMEthing while I'm off from work sick Dec 08 18:44:13 otherwise I go crazy sitting Dec 08 18:44:15 qgil: good points; I liked the code analogy Dec 08 18:44:27 Texrat: get better! Dec 08 18:44:46 thanks jaffa, already am. Flu vaccine worked wonders this time Dec 08 18:44:59 but my poor youngest son was hit really hard Dec 08 18:45:00 not the bird variety I hope Dec 08 18:45:20 well, lardman, whatever variant, it was fairly mild Dec 08 18:45:28 lardman: there's a complete list of the packages in each of the install images Dec 08 18:45:30 for me... but my son had high fever Dec 08 18:45:48 Their names aren't as informative as the list you found on the wiki though. Dec 08 18:46:31 Jaffa and qgil: as for code analogy, the converse works too-- developing functions for later program use is viable ;) Dec 08 18:46:42 qgil: Also, the name "Apps" worksforme Dec 08 18:46:55 which is the approach I was taking with slogans as a campaign component Dec 08 18:47:01 pixelgeek: it's just finding the list that's the problem Dec 08 18:47:03 guys, I have enough channels of discussion atm ;) Dec 08 18:47:13 Texrat: glad to hear it, get well soon :) Dec 08 18:47:41 back to work then Dec 08 18:47:45 qgil: I'm wondering if my task (Making N900 MeeGo easier) is related to your new one for engaging ideapad owners on the maemo community? Dec 08 18:48:06 lardman: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.1/handset/images/meego-handset-ia32-aava-mtf/meego-handset-ia32-aava-mtf-1.1.packages Dec 08 18:48:17 alterego: no need to have excess in interlinking Dec 08 18:48:49 but you have to know what the packages do.... ;) Dec 08 18:48:50 alterego: I have seen qole's experiments running MeeGo as an app within Maemo 5 - is this what you are thinking or...? Dec 08 18:50:36 qgil: a chroot system would be certiainly more widely adopted. Everyone seems to be saying the same thing, they don't want to move to meego until its' "ready". Dec 08 18:50:47 Which is obviously what we knew already. Dec 08 18:51:10 alterego: to me the secret sauce of new contributor engagement will come through Apps compiled at MeeGo OBS for MeeGo and Maemo 5 (you get those N900 testers still using plain Maemo) + brave users willing to test the same apps in a MeeGo chroot within Maemo 5 Dec 08 18:51:41 alterego: from there, a % will be curious about booting directly from MeeGo in micro-sd, installing in eMMC, etc Dec 08 18:51:48 qgil: I came to the same conclusion Dec 08 18:52:00 alterego: great - you rock ;) Dec 08 18:52:22 I'll probably work on a user friendly eMMC strategy then Dec 08 18:53:41 alterego: also, the chroot version could probably be updated once a month instead of the more demanding weekly cycle. Changes every 4 releases are quite noticeable, and some of those Maemo testers will be really happy feeling the pace of development in exchange of an affordable update every months Dec 08 18:55:39 fregl: pong Dec 08 18:56:16 qgil: yeah, good idea. Dec 08 18:57:04 pixelgeek: thanks Dec 08 18:57:23 pixelgeek: yeah no worries there, I can use Google ;) Dec 08 18:58:19 personally I'd prefer to skip chroot and have a workable MMC image Dec 08 18:58:34 i.e. working phone, sms, phone things Dec 08 18:59:04 * Stskeeps is personally hoping to see some cross platform work cos of the ideapad onto n900.. Dec 08 18:59:29 is the ideapad the thingy from the conf? Dec 08 18:59:32 yea Dec 08 18:59:38 k Dec 08 19:00:42 once there's an image with pm, battery charging and a working phone setup, I'll more than happily dual boot and do work on it Dec 08 19:00:57 and I think we're probably not too far off that Dec 08 19:01:05 well, that's part of what we're doing in 1.2 atm so Dec 08 19:01:10 charging's there, just not wall charger Dec 08 19:01:17 and phone setup will be better when policy is there Dec 08 19:01:43 we can only do so much though, but nothing stops anyone from building something proper using the n900-meego work :P Dec 08 19:02:14 I know, don't get me wrong I understand how hard it is. I'm sorry I don't really have the time to invest in platform work these days Dec 08 19:02:47 at least meego is doing things the right way.. minimal hw adaptation layer and very portable system Dec 08 19:03:04 yep Dec 08 19:03:06 Stskeeps I would be surprised if that ideapad-enabled cross-platform work didn't happen Dec 08 19:03:27 Texrat: especially after the guide of dual netbook and handset.. Dec 08 19:03:33 screen res might be a hinderance though Dec 08 19:03:39 yeah Dec 08 19:04:49 * lardman goes to grab some food Dec 08 19:24:40 any ideas if there's openal packages for meego ? Dec 08 19:25:03 is openGL on MeeGo? Dec 08 19:27:14 lolloo: 99.9% that libmesa is available and hw layer depends on the device. Dec 08 19:27:44 rely on glesv2 instead Dec 08 19:35:41 oh, thank you Ctrl-Shift-T... just saved me from accidental Chrome tab closure Dec 08 19:35:47 jani, what do you mean? Dec 08 19:37:16 lolloo: libmesa provides opengl backend in case there is no hardware support/drivers.. Dec 08 19:37:39 alright Dec 08 19:39:16 so the short answer: yes. Longeer answer: depends case by case =) Dec 08 19:39:51 hehe Dec 08 19:39:54 thanks. Dec 08 19:40:17 opengl has dolne good for android dont you think? Dec 08 19:40:21 done* Dec 08 19:53:21 hey achipa Dec 08 19:53:35 hey leinir Dec 08 19:54:06 hey Noobmonk3y Dec 08 19:54:41 Tex! Dec 08 19:54:43 evening :) Dec 08 19:54:48 Heyhey! :) Dec 08 19:54:48 lo alls :) Dec 08 19:55:02 how is everyone? :) Dec 08 19:56:33 surviving Dec 08 19:56:40 hey jukey! Dec 08 19:56:43 lol :P Dec 08 19:57:02 Texrat, this'll put a smile on ya face :) Dec 08 19:57:04 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11942814 Dec 08 19:57:52 the place it happenned is about 20 mins from, me, still makes me chuckle Dec 08 19:58:03 rofl noobMonk3y... "England's dumbest criminals" candidate Dec 08 19:58:20 hehehe yup :) Dec 08 19:58:33 NooBmonk3y, whilst highly amusing, still sad to see thugs running around Dec 08 19:59:01 lcuk, well, if they keep taking themselves out like that they'll be fewer around :) Dec 08 19:59:02 lcuk I don't think this oen is runnign atm Dec 08 19:59:10 what he said Dec 08 19:59:13 hehehe Dec 08 19:59:49 maybe all the smart ones are already killed off... though that statement sounds odd... Dec 08 20:00:30 "Newsflash: it's now been determined that all intelligent suicide bombers are dead" Dec 08 20:02:04 wow, I am only 3 months behind on Meegon requests... sigh Dec 08 20:03:12 Texrat, any news on the generator program? Dec 08 20:03:19 does it work yet, is there a beta test anywhere? Dec 08 20:03:33 lcuk yes it's usable and being updated Dec 08 20:03:35 cos if so, that may take the strain Dec 08 20:03:39 hang on Dec 08 20:03:47 i dread to ask, is it open source yet? Dec 08 20:04:39 lcuk: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=1338&page=7 Dec 08 20:04:43 no need for dread Dec 08 20:04:48 open was a requirement Dec 08 20:05:39 the program will be cool, but artists can do things no wizard can Dec 08 20:06:13 Texrat, sure thing, but if people can make a good approximation themselves its great Dec 08 20:06:33 leaving the artists time to add those special finishing touches! Dec 08 20:06:44 good point lcuk Dec 08 20:09:06 awesome sourcin :D https://github.com/physalis/MeeGen/tree/master/src/MeeGen Dec 08 20:09:59 mono and gtk? seriously? Dec 08 20:10:30 ali1234, the tools used by the developer are unimportant Dec 08 20:11:08 18 months ago many people will have gone ewwww c++ and qt Dec 08 20:11:23 anyway, I am going again Dec 08 20:11:31 \o Dec 08 20:13:26 doesn't say much for what is supposed to be the default language for making meego apps though Dec 08 20:14:50 ali1234 other developers and tools welcome ;) Dec 08 20:15:35 I was going to create a .NET app ;) Dec 08 20:16:00 nothing stopping others from crafting their own in whatever solution... in fact we encourage it Dec 08 20:16:05 that *is* a .NET app Dec 08 20:16:25 ok, well, no one else stepped forward Dec 08 20:16:40 I am not going to crucify the one volunteer over his choice of development Dec 08 20:17:03 i'm not going to crucify him, i'm just not going to use his program or contribute to it in any way Dec 08 20:17:56 can you code an alternative? Dec 08 20:18:22 well i don't know what it actually does Dec 08 20:18:26 I'm sure his algorithms will translate to other platforms Dec 08 20:18:34 does it do anything beyond dress up a meegon with layers? Dec 08 20:18:35 it's a wizard for Meegons Dec 08 20:18:43 creates them Dec 08 20:27:57 Texrat: hey Dec 08 20:29:30 lcuk, (just reading up!) 18 months ago - i did go, c+ qt, ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww! Dec 08 20:29:42 * timeless_webchat sets a target of leaving work "today... not tomorrow" Dec 08 20:29:46 (it's 10:30pm) Dec 08 20:32:11 Qt grows on you. I still have my "eeew" moments, but for a library this size, it's cleaner than you'd expect. C++ is still, well, yeah... Dec 08 20:33:14 :P Dec 08 20:34:50 better than Java :P Dec 08 20:37:16 Dunno. Java is bland, wordy, hopelessly inelegant and has a terrible standard library. But it has two or three orders of magnitude *less* of WTF in it than C++ does. In C or Java, things like inspecting a string field in a debugger are straightforward. Ever see what a QString looks like in gdb? Dec 08 20:39:29 java has the most hopelessly confused and irrelevant standard library of any widely used language Dec 08 20:45:52 Texrat, does seem we've gotten to the going around time of year, doesn't it? Dec 08 20:45:57 ali1234: it's lovely for programming competitions. :) ... I've never seriously used it for anything else :P Dec 08 21:07:34 java is good for writing class libraries. then use clojure or groovy for your programming, which are not bland, wordy or hopelessly inelegant Dec 08 21:07:49 lcuk, texrat, re booklet discussion earlier. lcuk was asking for some documentation on our progress with this target. I had already made some notes on my MeeGo wiki page but explained that the issue with the drivers. My previous work on the booklet (and other GMA500) was from our experiance with Joggler but was somewhat limited by access to a booklet. As I mentioned earlier and was reiterated by Stskeeps the problem is Dec 08 21:08:42 also w/r/t looking at things inside debuggers, i think Vala and/or Genie are a lot nicer to debug ( after having written/hacked exactly one vala probgram http://spekle.googlecode.com ) Dec 08 21:09:26 but now i'm learning QML ... Dec 08 21:12:47 * lbt saw "java is good for" and got the giggles.... Dec 08 21:18:51 is any1 from here interesting for installing meego_sdk and qemu etc from source? Dec 08 21:52:42 FUUUUUUU*********** Dec 08 21:52:55 I changed < to <= and the program worked Dec 08 21:56:46 Cosmo|Busy: classic off-by-one? Dec 08 21:58:11 * Cosmo|Busy growls Dec 08 22:07:21 Cosmo|Busy all's well that ends well Dec 08 22:07:25 * Texrat ducks Dec 08 22:08:15 I could have taken a shit into the compiler and produces a better program Dec 08 22:08:24 dneary thanks much for your guidance today Dec 08 22:08:41 Texrat, Remind me, which guidance? :) Dec 08 22:08:47 well, Cosmo|Hill, now you have a better process for next time Dec 08 22:09:00 I mean Cosmo|Busy Dec 08 22:09:07 * Texrat ducks again Dec 08 22:09:11 cosmo sets off my highlight Dec 08 22:09:34 dneary, the marketing and device program stuff Dec 08 22:09:41 Ah Dec 08 22:09:43 good points and arguments Dec 08 22:09:47 helpful Dec 08 22:10:22 but I am reminded again why the device program sputtered for maemo.org Dec 08 22:10:28 Texrat, For the record, I don't think slogan brainstorming is useful Dec 08 22:10:36 dneary I udnerstand Dec 08 22:10:41 but disagree ;) Dec 08 22:11:12 again, I see it as useful to draw out community members who might not otherwise engage Dec 08 22:11:14 But I definitely feel like Quim's being too conservative & should let people fail more Dec 08 22:11:20 lol Dec 08 22:11:35 Yes, that's what I think too. Some people will engage Dec 08 22:11:37 taken from my own philosophy :D Dec 08 22:11:52 I'm looking for community contributor entry points Dec 08 22:11:57 The difficulty with things like that is reaching a finality which gets buy-in from people who weren't involved in the brainstorming Dec 08 22:12:05 after all, that was raised as a shortcoming in CO brainstorm Dec 08 22:12:13 Texrat: I'll send you my lecturer's orginal code sometime Dec 08 22:12:20 understood, but sometimes the process is its own reward Dec 08 22:12:25 o/ Dec 08 22:12:39 and again, a door opener Dec 08 22:12:45 icebreaker if you will Dec 08 22:13:08 Cosmo what would I do with it? Dec 08 22:13:14 re device program: the Maemo program failed because we were applying an objective measure for something which is necessarily subjective Dec 08 22:13:16 laught Dec 08 22:13:38 dneary I will agree with that. Can't be automated ;) Dec 08 22:13:38 And decentralising an activity which is mostly centralised Dec 08 22:14:03 Hi Alison_Chaiken Dec 08 22:14:14 yeah, I see a fine balance between centralizing and decentralizing, esp given contrary opinions so far ;) Dec 08 22:14:31 Alison_Chaiken, Your question made it into the survey Dec 08 22:14:33 Hey dneary. Dec 08 22:14:51 Great, dneary. Let's hope we get some useful feedback. Dec 08 22:15:13 Texrat, The opportunity I see there is for referrals Dec 08 22:15:28 dneary, expand on that pls? Dec 08 22:15:52 The community works as a network Dec 08 22:16:54 So anyone who could usefully use a device is surely known to someone Dec 08 22:18:12 right dneary... which is why I am not so worried about centralizing logistics Dec 08 22:18:29 let community act as collector/filter/director Dec 08 22:18:37 And if we can get those nuggets of information - "could use a device", "has time", "will build stuff" - sufficiently centralised that people giving out devices know people who could use them... Dec 08 22:18:46 I think this sort of activity is self-correcting anyway Dec 08 22:18:58 agreed dneary, thanks Dec 08 22:19:06 Another way of doing it is to hand out devices like moderation points on slashdot Dec 08 22:19:19 (this is a bit further out of left field) Dec 08 22:19:24 Bear with me for a second Dec 08 22:19:32 good point, dneary... I'm actually working on a solution to karma that should help ;) Dec 08 22:19:38 I'm with you Dec 08 22:19:47 <-- big time brainstormer and speculator Dec 08 22:20:10 imagine this: karma meets balanced scorecards ;) Dec 08 22:20:23 You name maybe half a dozen community members (including Dawn/Quim/Auke/...) "device distributors" Dec 08 22:20:25 Texrat, dneary, like the idea of referrals Dec 08 22:20:35 I just need to make a pretty presentation Dec 08 22:20:37 Each one has a quota of devices at their discretion Dec 08 22:20:42 Total discretion Dec 08 22:20:56 interesting Dec 08 22:21:11 vgrade, your request this morning is exactly that and apologies for using your example as a bit ofa testcase but its ideal chance to see how it could work Dec 08 22:21:27 And you grow the pool of distributors on trust & merit - maybe based on who refers the most people? Dec 08 22:21:34 pandaboard for harbaum as well Dec 08 22:21:40 good ideas Dec 08 22:22:04 I would add to that, if/when my "karma" proposal is accepted... Dec 08 22:22:06 peeps on irc know where these things would be utilised Dec 08 22:22:18 Texrat, Well, you know how I feel about that... Dec 08 22:22:31 dneary I have a magic solution ;) Dec 08 22:22:31 I thought karma was done to death at the start Dec 08 22:22:39 trust me guys Dec 08 22:22:43 I have it solved Dec 08 22:22:57 anyway, my proposal is dynamic karma Dec 08 22:23:10 and to plug it into dneary's proposal... Dec 08 22:23:27 the top X karma holders could be part of that distribution pool Dec 08 22:23:30 karma means anyone new has to wait Dec 08 22:23:44 well berndhs that's not really a penalty Dec 08 22:23:51 that's true in any meritocracy Dec 08 22:23:54 it is for the new people :) Dec 08 22:24:01 feh Dec 08 22:24:07 Texrat, I'd expect distribs to be a select group Dec 08 22:24:13 That would grow slowly Dec 08 22:24:18 dneary it could start that way, sure Dec 08 22:24:27 Like the committers of the "device-program" module, if you will :) Dec 08 22:24:35 I would want a degree of dynamitics to it Dec 08 22:24:36 new people from outside a group can have their own merit Dec 08 22:24:44 And they would grow by referral/co-option, not based on a score Dec 08 22:24:46 wait... think I invented a word... Dec 08 22:24:57 ah ok, I gotcha Dec 08 22:25:05 but I was just brainstorming, too ;) Dec 08 22:25:33 it's easy to start with a collection of known, official leaders... then revisit that later Dec 08 22:26:31 I'm taking notes of all suggestions and will draft a single document containing several process proposals, including yours Dec 08 22:27:17 Texrat, finding out whether devices are available from each distributor and what controls and methods they would expect for their devices would be a good investigation, no matter which way it ends up being managed Dec 08 22:27:50 ie, the Ti people offering pandaboards, who to contact, what expectations are there etc Dec 08 22:28:09 also same for nokia and intel and amd too Dec 08 22:28:15 lcuk you are correct, and that is largely solved for TI Dec 08 22:28:28 trick is to get answers from Nokia and Intel...rrrrr Dec 08 22:28:59 jayabharath and I have been working out a strategy, on and off list Dec 08 22:29:00 ask directly with specific reasoning for asking Dec 08 22:29:15 yeah, if I knew WHO to ask Dec 08 22:29:22 with TI it was easy Dec 08 22:30:30 I asked for devices for local meet both intel and nokia promised devices, qgil and dawn Dec 08 22:41:38 dneary, love it. Dec 08 22:42:03 GAN900, What? Shy Developer Syndrome, or the device program idea? Dec 08 22:42:10 dneary, community's too big to have any one or two people. Dec 08 22:42:18 Designated device distributors. Dec 08 22:42:33 Looking at the MeeGo 1.1 Core API, it seems awfully difficult to me for someone who wants to port a desktop Linux app to MeeGo to know how to get started. There's such an emphasis on Qt on the MeeGo SDK that ISVs with existing large code bases that don't use Qt (e.g. Mozilla Foundation with Firefox/Fennec) must have a hard time getting started. Or are there better resources than the SDK web pages for developers porting existing apps? Dec 08 22:42:44 Ah Dec 08 22:43:02 I'd really like people's opinion of shy developer syndrome too Dec 08 22:43:20 And what about Maemo's program was a failure? Dec 08 22:43:26 dneary, scroll back? Dec 08 22:43:56 I don't know if people have see it - I published earlier & I'm not sure if I set the maemo keyword Dec 08 22:44:05 Oh, blog? Dec 08 22:44:16 Alison_Chaiken, I suspect GTK isn't part of MeeGo Core API :-) Dec 08 22:44:38 http://www.neary-consulting.com/index.php/2010/12/08/curing-shy-developer-syndrome/ Dec 08 22:45:17 dneary, reading. . . . Dec 08 22:45:35 Alison_Chaiken, You're dead right Dec 08 22:45:37 ShadowJK, I understand, but I can't even locate a list of which shared object libraries that we've all come to know and love underly the SDK. I suppose I can puzzle it out from the repos. Consider the list of libraries at http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/overview.html as a reference ;-) Dec 08 22:46:08 it'd be nice Dec 08 22:46:18 Alison_Chaiken, The goal is not to have desktop apps ported, but to have new apps created Dec 08 22:46:24 I think someone recently said we can assume libc will be present ;D Dec 08 22:47:54 isnt it running on top of a linux kernel? Dec 08 22:48:03 dneary, in order to have a full app store for MeeGo, it sure would be great if Banshee, GIMP, LibreOffice, etc. ran on MeeGo. I'm not sure what I would tell a Graphics Magick developer if I met one in the street. (Not so unlikely where I live.) Dec 08 22:48:19 ShadowJK, The architects are making a big distinction between libraries on the system and APIs developers should use Dec 08 22:48:36 ShadowJK, No-one should code against libc Dec 08 22:48:50 Alison_Chaiken, getting started. hmm on the ideapad, I just copied my source, zyppered the build tools and dependencies (gcc and misc -devel libs) hit make; make install Dec 08 22:48:54 and started to test Dec 08 22:49:02 Alison_Chaiken, Banshee does - on the netbook - as does Evolution Express Dec 08 22:49:03 dneary and ShadowJK, are we then saying that the API is stable (i.e. argument lists to method calls) but that the underlying libraries are encapsulated and may change? Dec 08 22:49:21 Alison_Chaiken, No Dec 08 22:49:47 Alison_Chaiken, It's not much different from the Android story, "yes, there's a native system somewhere, but you don't need to worry about that" Dec 08 22:50:09 lcuk, is there a list of SO libraries analogous to that at http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/overview.html that are promised in future versions for MeeGo, or no? Dec 08 22:52:38 Sounds like Banshee may configure-make-make-install today but not tomorrow? Can we consider a project like Banshee (or Gnote, or emacs or whatever) upstream to MeeGo, or is that out of the question? Are the only upstreams middleware like libm and libcrypto? Dec 08 22:52:48 eeeny, meeny, miney mo Dec 08 22:52:51 * Cosmo|Busy hugs dneary Dec 08 22:53:00 Cosmo|Busy, ? Dec 08 22:53:03 Alison_Chaiken, will banshee build/run on the n900? Dec 08 22:53:29 it was for motivation :) Dec 08 22:53:39 BTW lcuk, I don't want to harp on Banshee; it's just the first thing that came to mind. I'm a Rhythmbox user. Dec 08 22:53:44 It motivated me to run away! Dec 08 22:54:11 core has a list of packages which are at this point, well core and used across the uxes Dec 08 22:54:40 lcuk, I can find no such list either by mining down from the top-level at meego.com or via the Goog. Dec 08 22:54:47 but I dont know the longevity of those specifically and I bet at some point some will be depreciated and changed and removed as things evolve Dec 08 22:55:37 lcuk, that's precisely my question: Android NDK has a list of guaranteed packages. Do we have such a list? I'm asking because I know someone will ask me, and I want to know the answer in advance! Dec 08 22:55:37 Alison_Chaiken: the in-progress compliance spec enumerates the "MeeGo API" (which is basically Qt) which is guaranteed for future compatibility, and the list of "core packages" which can be relied on only within a single release. Is that what you're looking for? Dec 08 22:56:22 Alison_Chaiken, http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/daily/core/repos/armv7l/packages/armv7l/ Dec 08 22:56:45 Alison_Chaiken, that is related to the ongoing specifications discussions Dec 08 22:57:00 some of which happened before/during/after the conf Dec 08 22:57:03 But basically: the only things that are truly guaranteed are Qt (w/QtMobility and the web runtime) and GLES2. Everything else can be used, but may be dropped between releases. Dec 08 22:57:07 did you go to any of the sessions? Dec 08 22:57:15 my friend is like a tamigokish that needs feeding C code Dec 08 22:58:29 Alison_Chaiken, http://conference2010.meego.com/session/app-compatibility-and-meego-compliance-program Dec 08 22:58:42 feh Dec 08 22:59:15 OW! kidney stone. grrrr.... Dec 08 22:59:31 Alison_Chaiken: http://wiki.meego.com/Quality/Compliance - check last version - Appendix A whete the list of Core packages is offered - there is also one specific for Netbook Dec 08 22:59:47 Alison_Chaiken: I haven't checked that deeply but it soundls like what you are looking for Dec 08 23:00:26 Thanks guys for all the resource links. I will RTFM them and fall back on consulting Mark Skarpness if all else fails. Dec 08 23:01:40 thats the one I couldn't locate, thanks qgil \o Dec 08 23:01:45 okay... time to synthesize all the inouts on MeeGo device program... wheee Dec 08 23:01:52 qgil, should I add a backlink from the wiki page to the conference talk? Dec 08 23:01:52 inputs* Dec 08 23:01:59 Qt is getting steadily better and more complete at abstracting out platform details too. Dec 08 23:02:09 lcuk: not my page :) Dec 08 23:02:34 * lcuk adding then, its obviously related Dec 08 23:02:48 I believe this is the first time the Nokia CEO says "MeeGo" in his tweets :) http://twitter.com/selop/status/12642220351950848 Dec 08 23:03:03 good article there dneary Dec 08 23:03:09 qgil it's a relief he mentions it Dec 08 23:03:15 odin_, Thanks Dec 08 23:03:37 I thought he wanted to go all in MeeGo and ditch Symbian completely .. Dec 08 23:03:43 Texrat: really? why? Dec 08 23:04:55 qgil acknowledgement is assuring, ignoring not so much ;) Dec 08 23:05:25 Texrat: this guy has been talking about MeeGo several times and quite clearly since he was appointed... Dec 08 23:05:31 alterego I was surprised to see Nokia statement that MeeGo will not be used for enterprise...sheesh Dec 08 23:05:42 alterego: quote? Dec 08 23:05:49 understood qgil. Let me clarify: it's reassuring EVERY time he mentions it Dec 08 23:06:13 MeeGo is the better mobile computing platform Dec 08 23:06:36 I mean Texrat quote? Dec 08 23:06:47 I'll try to find it qgil Dec 08 23:07:02 When old corporate customers talk "enterprise", they only want their old crap to be supported forever. Potential customers however would look at it and say "why the hell would anyone want to use that?" :) Dec 08 23:07:16 qgil I retweeted it recently... Dec 08 23:07:21 Texrat: I mean, I saw the news you are prpbably referring to, but I didn't read that Dec 08 23:08:03 qgil, that's my interpretation of http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/mobile-devices/2010/12/01/nokia-meego-will-not-displace-symbian-as-enterprise-os-40091029/ Dec 08 23:08:19 Texrat: that's because elop plans to move e-series to wp7 .. Dec 08 23:08:22 jk Dec 08 23:08:33 * Texrat thwacks alterego Dec 08 23:08:43 :) Dec 08 23:09:35 qgil, If you get a chance to read it, I'd appreciate your feedback also ("shy developer syndrome" article) Dec 08 23:09:37 I suspect before they'd call it "Enterprise", they'd have to reimplement WAP, 3G Video Calls, 3G Mobile VPN, Mobile Printing, that "Intranet" wtf-feature, and every other internet technology that was reinvented for cellphones just to be different, and also create a symbian emulator to run all the ancient enterprisey software.. Dec 08 23:09:41 It's not the worst idea though, I could see a move like that helping a lot of people out esp. with Qt, and business folk trust MS stuff in the corp world ... Dec 08 23:09:53 shush alterego Dec 08 23:10:06 you'll melt the channel Dec 08 23:10:07 :) Dec 08 23:10:12 Sorry Dec 08 23:10:54 So, back to MeeGo, I started playing with community obs today. Also released a new app for maemo. Been a fun 12 hours. Dec 08 23:11:26 dneary, at work and failing to finish reading. Dec 08 23:11:26 Tomorrow I'll get heavy into MeeGo handset and port the aforementioned app Dec 08 23:11:36 heh, does anyone else see a contradiction in: "touchscreen devices are often quite immersive experiences for users — people have to keep their heads down to use them, because the applications require their full attention. Nokia, he said, wants to “give people their head up again.", and then a few lines later "he did suggest physical keys might become rarer on the MeeGo devices, with faces that were all screen" Dec 08 23:11:42 dneary, like it up to the tough crowd picture so far, though. Dec 08 23:11:57 GAN900, Cool Dec 08 23:12:08 night anyway Dec 08 23:12:22 eh, ShadowJK, I just hope the whole world does not go extreme on touch... Dec 08 23:12:25 ShadowJK: I did notice that, but who knows what he actually meant :P Dec 08 23:12:26 Texrat: alright, your interpretation of the ZDNet reporter interpretation of some quotes of a Nokia VP dedicated to the Symbian platform - actually what they say makes business sense to me, but is different of what you attributed Nokia to say Dec 08 23:12:33 I love my N900, but my E71 equally as well Dec 08 23:12:34 night, dneary Dec 08 23:12:52 qgil sorry I fail to see how it's different Dec 08 23:13:02 but that could be my failing entirely Dec 08 23:13:13 I think any distinctions are moot Dec 08 23:13:44 no worries, no matter what you or me say here the Nokia portfolio won't change :) Dec 08 23:13:51 cool qgil Dec 08 23:15:22 reading that zdnet article makes me shudder remembering the corporation's ability to upload approved settings to your enterprise corporate IT approved device :-) Dec 08 23:16:34 ShadowJK: that stuff is important in quite a few sectors ;) Dec 08 23:17:52 And obviously they have a Pentium 400 running Windows 98 SE somewhere in a locked room, and would be very upset if they needed new software to manage MeeGo-enterprise, and outraged if they had to upgrade to XP Dec 08 23:17:56 :D Dec 08 23:18:07 dneary: ref shy developers - what you said + a manager that also understands all that, contemplates the time needed to follow and be involved in public discussion, etc Dec 08 23:18:42 dneary: at the end (and this goes also for Stskeeps & Alice) the main lesson I have heared in all these years was in the Collaboration Summit last year Dec 08 23:19:31 dneary Stskeeps that IBM manager saying at one day IBM forbid any internal communications related to the open source projects where their engineers were involved Dec 08 23:19:56 qgil wasn't that early this year? Dec 08 23:20:03 I remmeber being there for that speech Dec 08 23:20:04 qgil, Yes, indeed. That was Dan Frye in Collab Summit Dec 08 23:20:08 no ibm.com dude sending private developer discussion email to another ibm.com dude Dec 08 23:20:33 could have sworn that was collab summit in SF this year Dec 08 23:20:36 qgil, The article was aimed at the manager Dec 08 23:20:47 Specifically the clued-in manager :) Dec 08 23:21:07 I wish Nokia and Intel would have such policy, but I guess that is easier for me to say Dec 08 23:21:54 qgil, I am aware of at least one company with the exact opposite policy Dec 08 23:22:18 qgil, dneary, I got the sense from last meetup that TI is trying to get there too Dec 08 23:22:21 All code leaving the company has to go through a v. small number of people who validate & submit patches Dec 08 23:23:33 That article starts from the core assumption that the manager and his organisation wants his team to participate in the open, and they're having some trouble getting there Dec 08 23:23:56 dneary: actually Nokia has done a big progress in 2 years ref public code repositories, but still the human language is lacking where the computer language is proceeding, and I see some of the causes in your article Dec 08 23:25:18 This would be a cool thing for someone to try datamine from mailing list archives of open source projects, how many developers from company X have posted things replying to another company X employee.. :) Dec 08 23:27:27 ShadowJK another chore for alice :D Dec 08 23:28:38 Heh Dec 08 23:30:45 I am trying to setup obs on opensuse Dec 08 23:31:01 i m following this Dec 08 23:31:02 http://wiki.meego.com/OBS_setup Dec 08 23:31:15 and having trouble Dec 08 23:31:48 http://pastebin.com/embed_js.php?i=xveZMJXu Dec 08 23:34:49 kp, some have had success with http://wiki.meego.com/User:Stskeeps/10_easy_steps_to_a_local_OBS, you might find some helpers here Dec 08 23:35:36 I have refer that as well Dec 08 23:35:51 but that is more like setting it up on virtual machine Dec 08 23:36:02 so a little different Dec 08 23:36:03 * alterego looks at some bug reports for inspiration Dec 08 23:37:03 should i go with ubuntu 10.04 32bit or 64bit? Dec 08 23:37:09 for a development environment? Dec 08 23:37:27 from my experience with openmoko, it seems developers tend to use internal mailing lists if NDA restrictions become a pain to follow. The less you need to worry about one wrong word in a public mail to a corporate coworker will get you in trouble with disclosing stuff, the more easy it is to convince all company staff to go public Dec 08 23:39:05 Doc, I think you've hit hte nail on the head there Dec 08 23:39:05 I moved/copied whole thread from internal.openmoko to community.openmoko several times Dec 08 23:39:54 as a MeeGo community member outside Nokia and Intel I don't have any come back on what I write here Dec 08 23:40:39 Stskeeps, alice initiative is a good one to encourage those internal discussions to become a little more open Dec 08 23:42:28 and I still recall several mails of Wolfgang Spraul (vice of OM): "THIS HAS TO GO PUBLIC!!" Dec 09 00:57:12 cyas Dec 09 01:34:19 i am trying to run meego runtime inside Ubuntu, but nothing happens Dec 09 01:34:35 (it's inside VM) Dec 09 01:34:54 i runned htop but i don't see any qemu service running Dec 09 01:35:41 any idea? Dec 09 02:25:25 CYBER SEX AT : http://camchat.orgfree.com Dec 09 02:26:54 ok, so what is lcuk_idea Dec 09 02:27:11 sphinxxxx, gtfo Dec 09 02:27:21 CYBER SEX AT : http://camchat.orgfree.com Dec 09 02:39:00 Haha Dec 09 02:39:16 Does that mean we've arrived? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Dec 09 02:59:57 2010