**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Apr 28 02:59:57 2011 Apr 28 03:12:03 du -sh /tmp Apr 28 03:12:09 4.9G /tmp Apr 28 03:12:13 wauw Apr 28 03:13:57 it cant be important, its in /tmp Apr 28 03:16:14 gabrbedd: send me a list of files in there so I can fix tmpwatch :) Apr 28 03:17:07 btw, most webcams work Apr 28 03:17:24 sofar: pretty simple... corewatcher.* Apr 28 03:17:27 if a specific one doesn't work, please list the device model/lspci etc and open a bugreport Apr 28 03:17:35 and corewatcher/* Apr 28 03:17:36 gabrbedd: install corewatcher pls Apr 28 03:17:39 :P Apr 28 03:17:55 http://crashdb.meego.com/ <- starting to look very pro Apr 28 03:18:30 sofar: already installed. Isn't that the problem? :-) Apr 28 03:18:39 it's not submitting then Apr 28 03:18:55 check /etc/corewatcher.conf and set it to 'yes' instead of 'ask' Apr 28 03:19:05 sofar: submitting what to where? Is there a guide to corewatcher somewhere? Apr 28 03:19:25 the conf should list a URL already preprogrammed to submit to crashdb.meego.com Apr 28 03:19:38 it'll upload the backtraces to crashdb Apr 28 03:21:09 it also removes the core dumps once processed, keeping your /tmp clean Apr 28 03:21:13 sofar: ok... that answers a lot. I'll set it to yes. Apr 28 03:21:42 if you really care, get the latest version in trunk Apr 28 03:21:47 sofar: ...but I've heard a lot of reports of corewatcher filling up peoples hard drives. (IDK if you're in a position of influence on that) :-) Apr 28 03:21:51 and install -debuginfo packages etc... Apr 28 03:22:00 * gabrbedd is currently `zypper up` with the daily build. Apr 28 03:22:14 about half done. Apr 28 03:22:16 I'm the person who originally made corewatcher "work" in meego Apr 28 03:22:29 now I manage the poor developers in charge of fixing it :) Apr 28 03:22:36 <- auke Apr 28 03:23:09 sneaky bastard. Apr 28 03:23:11 :-) Apr 28 03:23:55 let's just say... my fingers are on a lot of things in meego :) Apr 28 03:24:25 I meant the 'sofar' nick. :-) Apr 28 03:24:59 you don't like my irc handle? :) Apr 28 03:26:04 Sure, it's great (now that my DNS has been updated) Apr 28 03:33:42 sofar: BTW, I think corewatcher is a Good Thing. Thanks. :-) Apr 28 03:35:24 sofar: could you tell me how to use webCam on Meego? i have a usb webCam,but i don't know how to use it. Apr 28 03:36:23 newjor: Which meego are you using? Apr 28 03:36:41 netbook Apr 28 03:37:27 newjor: Usually, I just plug in the webcam... then fire up the 'webcam' app (a.k.a. cheese) and it just works. Apr 28 03:40:22 gabrbedd: you mean there have installed cheese app on meego? and ,what chip in you webcam Apr 28 03:41:11 newjor: Yes, the Netbook has 'cheese' installed by default. Go to your apps, it's in the "Internet" section and it's called "webcam" Apr 28 03:41:24 newjor: As for the chip... dunno. Never had to check. Apr 28 03:43:04 gabrbedd: can cheese be used to capture picture? i want to do the capture job? Apr 28 03:43:36 newjor: yes Apr 28 03:50:13 gabrbedd: oops,i can't find the cheese in the internet section, the release of my Meego-netbook is 1.1. so,what's the release of yours? Apr 28 03:53:34 newjor: 1.1 Apr 28 03:56:40 gabrbedd:ok,thanks Apr 28 03:58:52 http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=150553 Is somebody knows why my QEMU looks like this? I have tried many languages... Apr 28 04:00:07 http://imagebin.org/150553 Apr 28 04:07:35 Is somebody knows why my QEMU looks like this? I have tried many languages... Apr 28 04:07:37 http://imagebin.org/150553 Apr 28 04:32:55 Cherrot: intresting... which qemu image are you using? Apr 28 04:33:38 eg81: meego-netbook-ia32-qemu-1.1.2-runtime Apr 28 04:34:00 eg81: I use Ubuntu10.10 . Apr 28 04:42:59 have you tried to remove this runtime (mad remove) and recreate new (mad-admin create -e -f runtime) ? Apr 28 04:43:47 eg81: Not yet. I'll try it now! Apr 28 04:45:05 eg81: mad-admin remove? Apr 28 04:46:12 sudo mad-admin remove meego-netbook-ia32-qemu-1.1.2-runtime Apr 28 04:46:28 sudo mad-admin create -e -f meego-netbook-ia32-qemu-1.1.2-runtime Apr 28 04:46:55 mad remote -r meego-netbook-ia32-qemu-1.1.2-runtime poweron -fg Apr 28 04:47:52 What does "-fg" mean ? Apr 28 04:49:11 foreground .. :-) Apr 28 04:51:50 eg81: It works!! Thank you very much! Can you tell me why it can work? Apr 28 04:53:06 hard to answer... Apr 28 04:55:38 eg81: :-) Thank you so much! Apr 28 04:59:00 :) Apr 28 05:50:22 <_|Nix|_> Hey, all! Any idea how to set up an ad-hoc wireless network on the latest nightly build for tablets? I went to settings, but if it can't see the network, I don't see any UI for creating a new one. Apr 28 05:56:07 _|Nix|_: wild guess, look into connman how to do it manually or on the cmd-line Apr 28 06:30:28 good morning (ugt) Apr 28 06:30:51 did i miss anything at all exciting? Apr 28 06:34:24 hi thiago Apr 28 06:34:38 timeless: nah, nothing new Apr 28 06:37:50 hey timeless Apr 28 07:20:43 hi everyone Apr 28 07:21:01 hi Apr 28 07:21:03 has anyone here tried getting MeeGo emulator through qt creator in linux? Apr 28 07:22:25 well even the windows one Apr 28 07:23:38 I tried to do that and it works for me :) except that you can't stop emulator from qt-creator (there is a known issue) Apr 28 07:27:11 hmm guess thinking i could run it through my atom netbook Apr 28 07:27:15 was a bad idea Apr 28 07:27:27 its the only 32-bit windows i have in the house Apr 28 07:28:39 and it finally crashes Apr 28 07:29:04 well now that i see it works ill have a reason to format my system Apr 28 07:34:09 TheLegace: you can put MeeGo on usb stick then boot and use is as a live system Apr 28 07:34:19 i tried alread Apr 28 07:34:22 but theres no mouse cursor Apr 28 07:34:27 so it makes it difficult to get the xterm Apr 28 07:34:32 just to make that gconf setting Apr 28 07:34:37 the other option is just to build the image Apr 28 07:34:45 but i think im gonna go that path Apr 28 07:34:55 since i cant get tablet sdk installed Apr 28 07:34:59 which is seriously buggin me Apr 28 07:35:00 on linux Apr 28 07:36:10 failed: Execution failed (Unexpected exit code: 1): Apr 28 07:36:17 i keep getting that error when instaled the tablet image Apr 28 07:37:36 maybe ill post up bug since i cant seem to see reproduced anywhere else Apr 28 07:56:29 Hi All, Apr 28 07:56:48 I created a qemu target with trunk-1.1.99.4.20110426.4 for handset, that booted fine yesterday Apr 28 07:57:11 but today when i try to boot it; it is not booting ,and remaining in black screen for hours Apr 28 07:57:31 I checked ps list...nothing related to theme server, dui, is there Apr 28 07:58:19 while checking in /var/log/messages and Xorg.0.log, i found some GConf related error Apr 28 07:58:27 GLIB CRITICAL ** Tracker - Could not connect to the D-Bus session bus, Error connecting: Connection refused Apr 28 07:58:33 x11wrap.c: XOpenDisplay() failed Apr 28 07:58:55 /etc/init.d/messagebus status gives messagebus (pid 143) is running... Apr 28 07:59:13 can someone help me to find what has gone wrong Apr 28 08:39:42 sudo zypper info meegotouch-inputmethodkeyboard for "trunk-1.1.99.4.20110426.4" runtime gives Apr 28 08:40:07 Installed: No Status: not installed Apr 28 08:40:11 whether it will be part of 1.2? Apr 28 08:43:41 I sure hope so :-) Apr 28 08:45:37 mikhas: If i manually install it using zypper then qemu is booting with a black screen and freezes there Apr 28 08:46:37 perhaps a compositing issue Apr 28 08:47:09 you might have to adjust the startup parameters in the meego-im-uiserver's .desktop file Apr 28 08:48:32 what must be params any pointer Apr 28 08:49:50 I would first try with "-software -bypass-wm-hint" Apr 28 08:49:57 (assuming you dont run mcompositor) Apr 28 08:50:19 well, do you run any compositor at all? Apr 28 08:51:11 i m sorry mikhas, i really dont know what is the purpose of this compositor, i think i wont run (not sure) Apr 28 08:54:24 mikhas: i am getting logs like this "Process mcompositor (pid: 702," Apr 28 08:55:04 its PID changes frequently means, crashes immediately it spawned Apr 28 08:55:48 bkalinga, oopsie Apr 28 08:57:08 i think in someother's desktop file also i need to change this param Apr 28 08:57:09 Exec=/usr/bin/meegotouchhome -remote-theme Apr 28 08:57:27 is this OK or i need to change the param here also Apr 28 09:11:04 \o/ jarpalo ftw Apr 28 09:11:36 for submitting a patch to bug 14958 Apr 28 09:11:38 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14958 maj, Medium, 1.1.99.0, michael.leibowitz, NEW, [Trunk:Daily] Unable to change wrong wifi password input. Apr 28 09:21:55 mikhas, how is maliit coming along now? did the css themes get put into different packages, or are they still being modified? Apr 28 09:26:07 lcuk, there is a separate style package for the N900 apparently Apr 28 09:26:41 lcuk, we need to rethink our whole package structure for 1.3 ... Apr 28 09:32:01 mikhas, yeah it would be better for it to be packaged together Apr 28 10:58:22 Hi there.. do i need to add something on the .pro or do a #include something to use the OPENGL ES 1.1 API for meego ? Apr 28 11:02:55 tcs-meego, hmm, unsure Apr 28 11:03:12 what is the Qt project running currently? Apr 28 11:03:32 lcuk.. i am trying to compile the opengl demo hellogl Apr 28 11:03:43 in the .pro I added QT ++ opengl Apr 28 11:04:02 QT += opengl. But on running, i get a libEGL error Apr 28 11:04:41 I checked that some of the code uses opengl ES APIs ... like glVertexPointer and stuff.. so was wondering if i forgot to do something in the .pro file Apr 28 11:09:07 how can I read #meego-dev? why am I banned - I have nver been there Apr 28 11:09:25 meego-dev was redirected, ask your question here Apr 28 11:10:17 where is the evolution-ews channel Apr 28 11:10:18 ? Apr 28 11:10:22 for meego Apr 28 11:11:43 cityLights, well who works on evolution-ews? Apr 28 11:12:03 no idea Apr 28 11:14:52 I seek Yanli http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Yanli Apr 28 11:15:12 ~seen Yanli Apr 28 11:15:17 yanli <~YanLi@helpconfig.org> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 394d 4h 41m ago, saying: 'Stskeeps, sorry, i'm not sure, i don't know too much about ks file'. Apr 28 11:16:23 now that's clock skew! Apr 28 11:25:48 does neone know fo a small example code for meego using OpenGL ES? Apr 28 11:26:05 tcs-meego: www.daimi.au.dk/c Apr 28 11:26:14 thanks stskeeps Apr 28 11:26:15 tcs-meego: www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/glestest.cc Apr 28 11:26:18 i mean Apr 28 11:26:22 lbt: no, clock skew is when you discover that six days from yesterday is actually on May 18th Apr 28 11:26:51 Stskeeps.. but this is not Qt Apr 28 11:26:59 :O Apr 28 11:27:12 sorry I was wrong... i was looking for something that was a Qt app Apr 28 11:27:24 ah Apr 28 11:27:54 good morning :) Apr 28 11:28:52 lbt: though that's bureaucracy clock which got between me and the meegoconf Apr 28 11:29:17 visa? Apr 28 11:31:40 Stskeeps: or, in my case, the lack thereof Apr 28 11:32:18 achipa: No ESTA for you? Apr 28 11:32:39 Entertainment Services and Technology Association (ESTA) is a live entertainment industry organization. Apr 28 11:32:42 I guess not that one Apr 28 11:33:14 achipa: https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/ Apr 28 11:33:31 failed attempt at humor there Apr 28 11:34:06 yes, but no, I'm from one of those crazy european countries that don't get to be on that list Apr 28 11:34:30 achipa: Hmm so you need to go through the whole interview thing? Apr 28 11:34:46 should have, yes, but already ran out of time Apr 28 11:35:01 as apparently it takes about a month to get through the process Apr 28 11:35:14 the http://serbia.usembassy.gov/niv-apply.html jazz Apr 28 11:35:16 achipa: Did you call the embassy? Apr 28 11:35:28 achipa: in .fi? Apr 28 11:35:32 (still haven't decided if the video is more funny or more insulting) Apr 28 11:35:58 X-Fade: yes, .fi is worse, apparently they don't get much traffic, so it seems Serbia is the quicker option (the irony) Apr 28 11:36:32 achipa: Hmm that sucks. Apr 28 11:36:35 X-Fade: and yes, I did contact them and they very politely said 'too bad' Apr 28 11:36:56 achipa: Ah, a friend of mine got an interview in 2 weeks there or so. Apr 28 11:39:03 The Serbian jewel must be that you have to pay 10$ to get a PIN to able to CALL them to make the appointment Apr 28 11:52:00 MDebug: is part of which package? Apr 28 11:54:34 its part of meegotouch but why do I get error when use it, fatal error: MDebug: No such file or directory Apr 28 12:00:56 bkalinga: does your meegotouch application compile otherwise? Apr 28 12:01:12 without MDebug Apr 28 12:01:21 yes Apr 28 12:01:23 hmm Apr 28 12:03:16 do you have the file /usr/include/meegotouch/MDebug (and mdebug.h)? Apr 28 12:03:56 yes Apr 28 12:05:50 hhurtta: i think i have missed some LIB due to that its not picking Apr 28 12:06:03 in .pro file Apr 28 12:06:13 i ll try to solve it Apr 28 12:29:12 does anyone know where to find Yanli ? Apr 28 12:31:40 Hi! Apr 28 12:31:53 ? Apr 28 12:31:56 The intel_agp module is missing in the installation-sequence. Apr 28 12:33:28 How to install a rpm package into MeeGo QEMU ? Apr 28 12:33:30 I want to install a package of IVE to my netbook MeeGo runtime Apr 28 12:39:07 Cherrot, the same way you do in other places Apr 28 12:39:13 zypper in [package] Apr 28 12:44:43 lcuk: Thank you. My QEMU may have some errors , I try to fix it first Apr 28 12:50:47 Cherrot, hope it goes smoothly \o Apr 28 12:51:30 lcuk: :-) Apr 28 13:20:14 is there a problem with Meego.com for you ? Apr 28 13:29:17 chouchoune: no Apr 28 13:31:29 ok, might come from my company's internet access then Apr 28 13:33:24 chouchoune: Possibly. There was a DNS issue yesterday. Apr 28 13:33:27 is there a virtualbox image that contains all the development tools for meego, similar to the one i use for maemo? Apr 28 15:35:45 meh Apr 28 15:37:13 What's up Myrtti? Apr 28 16:04:43 hey i want to try out meego on my n900, how should i setup so that i can multiboot between maemo and meego? Apr 28 16:15:23 rpgdude: do you have mmc card? you can install meego on it Apr 28 16:17:23 using istructions from here wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900 Apr 28 16:18:04 rpgdude, first time is easier with the instructions there ^ Apr 28 16:20:48 yeah i have a 16 gb blank mmxc Apr 28 16:20:51 *mmc Apr 28 16:21:15 i also want to have nitdroid on it, so should i install nitdroid first, or meego first? Apr 28 16:23:23 personaly I've never tried this combination maemo+meego+android, you can try :) Apr 28 16:23:54 yeah i was gonna give it a shot Apr 28 16:23:59 Anyone know what to do if the flasher doesn't find my phone when trying to load the kernel to it? Apr 28 16:25:16 V3rtig0_, which OS? Apr 28 16:25:43 W7 Apr 28 16:25:57 it looks like the .raw file contains a partition table Apr 28 16:26:17 V3rtig0_, I generally turn off the device, remove battery, plug into usb, start the flasher so it says "waiting for device" then inserting the battery and watching the magic happen. Apr 28 16:26:23 how you i install the rootfs without corrupting my existing partition table? Apr 28 16:27:30 hm okay lcuk, I'll try that. I've only had the device turned off, and then put the USB in, but not without battery first. Apr 28 16:30:32 as 8 remember plug usb only after you will run flasher, no need to remove battery Apr 28 16:34:45 eg81, I like the simplicity of the way I deal with flashing, it ensures the device is in a consistent state. Apr 28 16:35:50 * lcuk still has aching arms from bringing the cot upstairs Apr 28 16:36:03 :) if thinking from that perspective then I agree Apr 28 16:36:49 it is a lovely pine one from john lewis and we had to break it down reassemble it to get it through the door Apr 28 16:37:19 * lcuk stood three holding heavy cot on his own until family came to help :) Apr 28 16:40:56 can i maybe mount the raw image and copy the files manually to my own partitions? Apr 28 16:43:58 \o lardman Apr 28 16:44:01 rpgdude: you can use the ks file with mic to build a tarball of the root filesystem Apr 28 16:44:07 no idea how though Apr 28 16:44:25 hm Apr 28 16:44:46 it looks like i can use the instructions on the NFS wiki page Apr 28 16:45:14 my stupid computer keeps dropping back to usb 1 Apr 28 16:54:56 hi lcuk Apr 28 17:03:38 DawnFoster: was the LCS meego day recorded, out of curiousity? Apr 28 17:15:47 Hey lardman! Apr 28 17:15:58 Sorry there has been no progress on the item database app :/ Apr 28 17:31:14 is this the correct place to ask lbt to enalbe the obs build access for ejones2? I have community access, but it does not allow me to work with the kernel. Apr 28 17:32:54 ejones2, you have to file a bug on bugzilla for that, lbt only does community OBS Apr 28 17:34:22 oh ok. Unless I am missing something? I really just want a local copy of the source code so i can single step debug kernel.... Is that do able without the obs build account? Apr 28 17:34:49 you can work with anything that's on build.meego.com on community obs Apr 28 17:34:51 they're linked Apr 28 17:34:55 you just need the src rpm for that Apr 28 17:35:07 * lbt sits back Apr 28 17:37:45 thanks stskeeps, can you point me to any docs/wiki that has the steps to do this type of debug? The target i have with Meego is NOT good for doing the debug, so i am trying to do the debug work on an Ubuntu host. Problem is, without the source code, it isnt very informative. Apr 28 17:38:08 ejones2: ok, ARM or x8? Apr 28 17:38:09 remote gdb? Apr 28 17:38:11 6 Apr 28 17:38:31 hey fiferboy Apr 28 17:38:44 no worries, I've not really had any time to even use my N900 lately Apr 28 17:39:00 stskeeps, it is x86 (mrst) Apr 28 17:39:04 fiferboy: how's the family? Apr 28 17:39:14 lcuk: likewise how's your family? Apr 28 17:40:02 ali1234, could do remote gdb but was using the embedded debugger (uses JTAG device).... Honestly, whatever is documented/esiest I can work with, i am not set on a particular ide Apr 28 17:40:23 ejones2: osc -A https://api.pub.meego.com checkout MeeGo.com:Trunk kernel-adaptation-mrst (or what the name was) Apr 28 17:40:32 well, JTAG is a type of remote GDB afaik Apr 28 17:41:06 ali1234, i think he means JTAG as in a serial console Apr 28 17:41:14 lolwat Apr 28 17:41:18 lardman: They're good. Oldest just turned 5 this week Apr 28 17:41:25 stskeeps, well the osc - MeeGo:1.1:Core kernel-mrst was what I tried to get to, but it seems that package does not exist in the community obs Apr 28 17:41:53 ah Apr 28 17:42:20 grab the rpm from the repo on the official OBS Apr 28 17:42:21 stskeeps, The target I am working on will not boot with the latest greatest kernel (due to si changes) Apr 28 17:42:52 fiferboy: cool :) Apr 28 17:42:58 ejones2: what are you using for jtag access? some hardware device? Apr 28 17:43:11 or just a cheap parallel port thing? Apr 28 17:43:21 (or not so cheap parallel port thing) Apr 28 17:43:38 ali1234, using ITP XDB Apr 28 17:44:23 lardman, doing good I think, Jacob was out playing football in full superman costume earlier, cape and everything. Apr 28 17:44:58 Ok so if i run the rpm command on the rpm in the official repo, that will not try to update files on my ubuntu machine (ie will keep the files in the subdir) so i can point the debugger there? Apr 28 17:45:20 ejones2: no idea then sorry Apr 28 17:45:31 lcuk: good stuff, might as well enjoy the weather while it lasts! :) Apr 28 17:45:51 the wedding is tomorrow Apr 28 17:45:57 * lcuk should find out if there will be a party Apr 28 17:46:16 I fear I will be at work, so much to do before the end of next week :( Apr 28 17:46:37 but at least that way I won't have to watch the ceremony (though good luck to them both) :) Apr 28 17:46:49 heh Apr 28 17:46:58 * lcuk going to Heaton park on sunday :) Apr 28 17:47:03 stskeeps & ali1234: thanks for trying to help me out. it doesnt sound like this is *easy* to do, it doesnt appear that there are many people doing the kernel development work and needing to debug.... Apr 28 17:47:14 oh plenty of that Apr 28 17:47:21 but most people just use serial i guess Apr 28 17:47:33 i've never really found a good reason to do step debugging Apr 28 17:47:40 lcuk: anyone you know been affected by the Nokia UK layoffs? Apr 28 17:47:48 but then i mostly potter around with device drivers, not core stuff Apr 28 17:47:55 probably old news by now, but I've not had much time to be online recently Apr 28 17:47:56 ali1234: I am willing to go that route, just not familiar with it.... any guidance? Apr 28 17:48:08 Meego is awesome Apr 28 17:48:11 ejones2: just fill your code with lots of printk() Apr 28 17:48:23 Nav_: meego, the zombie operating system! Apr 28 17:48:23 Hope everyone working on it is doing great and having fun Apr 28 17:48:24 then watch the kernel output on serial port Apr 28 17:48:24 ;) Apr 28 17:48:33 lardman, not sure, been digging around in wiki for much of the day Apr 28 17:48:38 ali1234: Aah I understand now. Apr 28 17:48:56 all you need is minicom or hyperterminal or whatever Apr 28 17:49:04 I'm trying to get it to run on an omap processor Apr 28 17:49:18 I attended the vanet IEEE conference Apr 28 17:49:24 car computing is interesting Apr 28 17:49:30 it's not a glamorous way to debug but it works and is easy Apr 28 17:49:33 meego is right on track Apr 28 17:49:39 Nav_: we already have it on N900, a omap3 :) Apr 28 17:49:43 ali1234: yes i have that Null modem / serial port setup Apr 28 17:50:01 of course i rarely have the luxury of a real development environment Apr 28 17:50:11 speaking of N900's Apr 28 17:50:12 the only time i have used jtag i had to figure out the connector and make my own cable Apr 28 17:50:30 I met the guy from Nokia that does the algorithms for the towers that Nokia uses for communication networks Apr 28 17:50:35 really awesome guy Apr 28 17:50:36 very fast Apr 28 17:50:46 and intersting Apr 28 17:51:23 ali1234: sorry to hear you have to do most debug with printk, although effective, seems a bit dated.... was hoping to get some other tools working... Apr 28 17:52:26 ejones2: well it sounds like you have the stepping part working... al you need to do is figure out how to feed the source code to the debugger so it can show the code position, yeah? Apr 28 17:52:29 right now I have meego running on a shuttle pc Apr 28 17:52:36 and it is running great Apr 28 17:52:44 ejones2: might be able to use 'debuginfo' package, if one is generated Apr 28 17:52:46 that contains sources Apr 28 17:53:13 ali1234: I *think* that is the case. It appears to step. Apr 28 17:53:29 heh... jtag isn't the most reliable protocol Apr 28 17:53:40 stskeeps: is that debuginfo package availalbe on the repo sources? Apr 28 17:53:45 ejones2: yes, afaik Apr 28 17:53:46 in debug/ Apr 28 17:54:07 Ok will give that a try! Apr 28 17:54:28 ejones2: both the OBS are publicly readable and you can download anything you see on it Apr 28 17:54:36 has meego full support for ion and non-intel processors as of yet?? Apr 28 17:54:38 (anonymously) Apr 28 17:54:46 you just can't have commit access on the core one Apr 28 17:55:00 Nav_: SSSE3 is a requirement, ion you need to build Xorg with xinerama for, but otherwise works, afaik Apr 28 17:55:04 I've been working on 3D graphics, data structures, and algorithms and gpu processing for advanced UI's Apr 28 17:55:09 and well, ARM Apr 28 17:55:10 oh cool! Apr 28 17:55:17 I knew about the xinerama Apr 28 17:55:28 if thats all that needs to be done thats great Apr 28 17:55:43 ali1234, the OBS is not very intuitive to me, i have had a heck of a time getting anything off of it (ok ** confession ** Ive not successfully gotten anything out of OBS) Apr 28 17:55:55 sure, OBS is confusing as hell Apr 28 17:55:57 i totally agree Apr 28 17:56:20 ali1234: Oh thank goodness someone else agrees! I dont feel like such a heel now Apr 28 17:56:26 brb Apr 28 17:56:57 OBS is designed for building whole distributions, not exactly a simple task, so it requires complex tools Apr 28 17:57:58 if you want to debug the kernel i'd guess you'll be wanting to build it yourself too? Apr 28 17:58:26 I really like the choice of using the clutter wrapper around the openGL, really smart Apr 28 17:58:48 wasn't so great for the virtual environment, but hey, trade offs eh Apr 28 17:58:51 hehe Apr 28 17:59:09 ali1234: yes, eventually, but I am trying to tackle this in small chunks.... Get the existing meego 1.1 'debugable', then buildable, then add customizations Apr 28 17:59:35 ejones2: i would tackle building first Apr 28 17:59:46 this is because the things you need to debug are generated when you build Apr 28 17:59:58 so you won't have to hunt for them Apr 28 18:00:33 ali1234: Good point. So do you reccomend building the meego 1.1 image (kernel + fs) on my dev machine or on the OBS? Apr 28 18:00:41 no Apr 28 18:00:49 you only need to build the kernel Apr 28 18:00:58 assuming that's what you want to debug Apr 28 18:01:23 there's no need to rebuild the whole image each time you builda new kernel Apr 28 18:01:48 so thing to figure out number 2 should be how to swap out the existing installed kernel for your own built one Apr 28 18:02:02 this depends on how your board works but if it is x86 it should be simple Apr 28 18:02:08 yes, that is what I want..... So just get the kernel to rebuild on my machine but get source from OBS Apr 28 18:02:26 well as stated you just take the source rpm Apr 28 18:02:44 you don't really get it from OBS, you just get it from meego repository Apr 28 18:03:00 Ok, I am with you. Apr 28 18:03:24 if for some reason you wanted the absolute latest kernel version in meego you could take it from OBS Apr 28 18:03:36 but for 1.1 that probably won't be necessary Apr 28 18:03:49 based on some articles online, i should be able to package the newly built kernel into an rpm and then with usb stick bring over to the meego system. Apr 28 18:04:04 yes that's one way to do it Apr 28 18:04:09 quite involved though Apr 28 18:04:25 you have an easier reccomendation? Apr 28 18:04:32 well, easier no Apr 28 18:04:37 but more streamlined yes Apr 28 18:05:06 i like to boot dev board using PXE and NFS root filesystem Apr 28 18:05:18 then i can just drop in any binaries i want at any time on the dev machine Apr 28 18:05:24 just reboot board to get new kernel Apr 28 18:05:29 much faster way to develop Apr 28 18:05:36 but it's harder to set up Apr 28 18:06:42 you can of course just install the kernel and modules by hand if you are familiar with that stuff, that would also be quicker than building a whole RPM Apr 28 18:07:04 ali1234: Ok, will keep that in mind. Maybe its another step to add to the list for the future. the current platform doesnt have traditional bios, so PXE is probably not an option right now.... Apr 28 18:08:13 BTW, YOU GUYS ROCK!!! thanks for the detailed help :) Hopefully this is what I need to get on the right track. Apr 28 18:08:41 just remember to help when you see someone else needing help as well, or better yet, document on wiki Apr 28 18:08:43 By GUYS I mean girls/guys not gender specific :) same as y'all Apr 28 18:09:30 that would be humans Apr 28 18:09:42 stskeeps: I have been updating the wiki here and there... once i get this process all hashed out, i will see where the missing steps are. Apr 28 18:09:44 unless you want to include other life forms Apr 28 18:10:04 people, unless you want to sound like a generic star trek alien Apr 28 18:10:14 $ENTITIES Apr 28 18:10:28 "suckers" will probably also do the trick Apr 28 18:10:34 at least semantically Apr 28 18:10:42 * dm8tbr starts handing out ipv6 addresses to everyone so he can address them better Apr 28 18:11:00 If only you could remember them Apr 28 18:12:09 it's "just" 128bits! Apr 28 18:12:27 ejones2: so yeah... basically you need debug symbols that match your built kernel anyway, so you may as well get that part done first Apr 28 18:13:30 perhaps there is a git repo somewhere with all meego patches applied and a handy tag for 1.1, if so that is probably going to be the easiest thing to work with Apr 28 18:14:02 ali1234: not afaik Apr 28 18:14:07 if not you want to get the srpm and just do the prep stage to get all the patches applied Apr 28 18:16:39 "meego 1.2 developer edition" :) Apr 28 18:16:44 nice splash screen :) Apr 28 18:19:09 ...and then a black screen Apr 28 18:19:35 ah... oh Apr 28 18:20:02 yeah, that transition doesn't go too well Apr 28 18:20:09 first bootup is always slow Apr 28 18:20:55 when you let it settle, it's better Apr 28 18:21:06 hmm it rotates 3 ways Apr 28 18:21:26 Stskeeps: meego day wasn't recorded, unfortunately - we just have the presentations availbale Apr 28 18:21:28 yes, some stupid idiots seem to think that letting it rotate to reverse portrait would confuse the poor ickle users Apr 28 18:21:29 how strange Apr 28 18:21:45 why reverse landscape but not reverse portrait??? Apr 28 18:21:49 DawnFoster: alright - slides look interesting for sure Apr 28 18:22:05 ali1234: I did say it was stupid Apr 28 18:24:34 "navigator sucks do you want to close it?" Apr 28 18:24:39 yes, yes i do Apr 28 18:27:39 why can't i just type a url? it will only let me search? Apr 28 18:27:47 also, arrow keys don't work Apr 28 18:28:06 they don't? Apr 28 18:28:19 yes, they don't Apr 28 18:28:21 please write down your findings in a .txt or better yet, as bugs Apr 28 18:28:33 first-time user walkthroughs are valuable for us, so Apr 28 18:29:59 is there a some way to report bugs against DE in a generic way so they can be triaged? Apr 28 18:30:05 cos i have no idea what components i am using Apr 28 18:30:45 ali, at present I have been using the handset categories and prefixing bug report with [n900 de] Apr 28 18:32:16 actually maybe the enter key isn't working either and that's why i can only search. hmm Apr 28 18:33:01 which build are you using? Apr 28 18:33:23 Stskeeps mentioned this morning that it was not booting today but that hopefully it will tomorrow Apr 28 18:34:07 i'm using the alpha as instructed on the wiki Apr 28 18:34:10 alpha release is good for bug reports, yes Apr 28 18:34:31 ali1234, link to the wiki page you are reading from? Apr 28 18:34:42 http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/DeveloperEdition Apr 28 18:34:47 * lcuk will have a go at flashing and booting Apr 28 18:36:04 i keep seeing that "xxx sucks" message but it disappears before i can interact with it Apr 28 18:40:25 evening MeeGoExperts \o Apr 28 18:43:16 *burp* Apr 28 18:43:21 tom kha gai ♥ Apr 28 18:52:39 what is "peregrine p..." Apr 28 18:53:32 a communicator Apr 28 18:54:44 instant messenging? Apr 28 18:57:04 yeah Apr 28 18:57:19 ah the keyboard bug with fennec is reported Apr 28 18:58:14 yep Apr 28 18:58:34 yeah arrows and enter work in xterm Apr 28 18:58:48 will add a note saying arrow keys also don't work to that bug since i don't think anyone mentioned it Apr 28 18:59:16 ali1234, good idea Apr 28 19:06:59 npm, if you check my xbmc builds on home:arfoll they support the crystalhd decoder Apr 28 19:08:34 and i think the stuttering in playback of youtube stuff in playbin2 is innadequate buffering, XBMC probably does more Apr 28 19:08:58 and crystalhd has a gstreamer element called bcmdec that is on the wetab for example Apr 28 19:13:26 arfoll: thanks i'll take a look . first i'd need to get some appropriate hardware. now that i tried playing back some HD content stored on my DLNA share, it appears necessary :-) Apr 28 19:15:00 glad to hear xbmc will be the basis of meegotv as well... having worked on inferior dvr platforms, dreaming of being able to use some proper open source instead of directv crapware Apr 28 19:16:06 npm, glad you are exited about it, legal isn't ;-) Apr 28 19:16:21 yeah, i've been wondering about that Apr 28 19:16:52 thought perhaps that had been worked through Apr 28 19:16:54 looks like all the bugs i foundwere reported already :) Apr 28 19:17:08 npm, have a look tmrw and they will all be Apr 28 19:17:40 * arfoll cowers away from baseball bats surrounding him Apr 28 19:18:04 there's a reason why the full-featured xbmc isn't on fedora but rather hosted by fedora's rpmfusion repo Apr 28 19:18:48 npm, This xbmc package will currently only work full on it's intended sodaville platform, so it's really MeeGo TV only Apr 28 19:20:23 i'll be happy to accept any extra hardware you have :-) is that a CE4100? Apr 28 19:20:51 npm, yes it's ce4100, as for extra hardware you're barking up the wrong student ;-) Apr 28 19:21:05 i've actually fried my spare ce4100 just last week Apr 28 19:21:49 well i cracked my n900 screen so we're even :-( Apr 28 19:22:18 ehehe did you also stare at it blankly praying for it to boot for 30 minutes? Apr 28 19:22:35 there needs to be a new word in english for the stupidity-induced loss of prized hardware Apr 28 19:22:40 npm eep, where on the screen is it cracked? Apr 28 19:22:52 ehehe maybe but i'm claiming mine as bad luck with flash Apr 28 19:23:06 stupid NOR flash seems to have died half way through the flashing process Apr 28 19:23:58 lcuk: on LHS, right betweeen where the front camera and sensor are.. started as small crack and then spread. Apr 28 19:24:20 i was thinking last week i should take care of the "white blob" issue on display under warranty Apr 28 19:24:55 will warranty take care of a cracked screen? Apr 28 19:25:33 depends on whether walking into a couch in my mouse with the phone in my pocket is considered normal use Apr 28 19:25:47 s/mouse/house Apr 28 19:27:51 s/moose/loose Apr 28 19:28:02 i guess i should hurry up and figure out what do do with it as i wanted to run n900DE at the meego conf Apr 28 19:29:00 for the meego fi summit I suggested/enquired if any hackers were around who might be able to do little repairs whilst people are there Apr 28 19:29:13 like the loose usb plug resoldering/fixing Apr 28 19:29:50 that would be cool. i saw some warnings about stuck mini-screws in replacing the display Apr 28 19:31:08 if it was normal sized electronics i'd be all in. but this newfangled stuff is too delicate and i'd just break it more Apr 28 20:00:05 Stskeeps, is there really no way to get to the task switcher with tablet ux on the n900? Apr 28 20:00:17 I've started one app and can't get out of it Apr 28 20:00:25 TomaszD: camera button Apr 28 20:00:52 hmm, some inaccurate notes in the wiki then Apr 28 20:00:59 was supposed to be the ctrl button Apr 28 20:01:06 thanks Apr 28 20:02:24 wow, some of this stuff works really well Apr 28 20:03:08 what are you using Apr 28 20:04:10 mg-tablet-armv7nhl-n900-de-acceptance-1.1.99.4.20110425.7.DE.2011-04-27.1 Apr 28 20:04:31 Stskeeps, although I'm really at a loss as to what to choose, I picked that one at random Apr 28 20:04:38 there are 1.2.0.0 builds too Apr 28 20:04:44 and sanity, acceptance, etc. Apr 28 20:04:52 yeah, we try to mark some as 'alpha' 'beta', etc Apr 28 20:06:16 Stskeeps, why are there 1.1.99 builds and 1.2 builds? which ones to pick? Apr 28 20:07:23 because someone messed up at meego.com side re numbers when we postponed release 3 weeks ;) Apr 28 20:07:34 TomaszD, OneDotTwo :P Apr 28 20:07:54 ok so I should choose 1.2 then Apr 28 20:07:56 ? Apr 28 20:07:57 no Apr 28 20:08:26 no? Apr 28 20:08:28 hmm Apr 28 20:16:10 Stskeeps: Comms of the delay was pretty shabby, I think. I don't remember seeing a big announcement on meego-*; just a footnote within yet another thread with an incorrect subject. Apr 28 20:16:53 Jaffa: it was on meego-releases@ Apr 28 20:17:20 not that i totally disagree with the comms issue Apr 28 20:19:36 Stskeeps: Ah. Because the actual *date* of a release is only something of concern to the people managing it, not the people working towards it ;-) Apr 28 20:20:07 but hey, compared to 1.0, this is an improvement :) Apr 28 20:20:28 This is the problem with over-siloing of mailing lists in _this_ project. You either follow them all and get too much; or follow the ones you are primarily interested in and don't get "big" news. Apr 28 20:21:08 i really wouldn't mind a proper weekly newsletter Apr 28 20:21:08 :P Apr 28 20:22:15 Stskeeps: eh? Apr 28 20:22:19 Stskeeps: ...and I wouldn't mind people submitting stuff Apr 28 20:22:28 Stskeeps: :-p Apr 28 20:22:40 Jaffa: yeah, proper was hinted on that we have facilities but they aren't being use Apr 28 20:22:43 :P Apr 28 20:22:45 d Apr 28 20:23:17 Stskeeps: /me bets at least 90% of MWKN is self-sourced, with then about 50:50 fleshed out between him & GeneralAntilles Apr 28 20:23:42 * Jaffa sucks at drumming up support Apr 28 20:23:54 Jaffa: not enough incentive. Apr 28 20:24:02 Doesn't generate karma, money or recognition. Apr 28 20:24:12 Jaffa: sounds like a good LBN proposal Apr 28 20:24:16 GeneralAntilles: True Apr 28 20:24:24 Stskeeps: "LBN"? Apr 28 20:24:33 We should probably have a field for "submitted by" and "summarized by" Apr 28 20:24:35 That'd help. Apr 28 20:24:50 GeneralAntilles: timsamoff's redesigned CSS would make that easier. Apr 28 20:24:50 ok, bit brain damaged.. LBN, you know, late breaking news, the thing we open two weeks before conference to fill in remainder of slots Apr 28 20:25:13 GeneralAntilles: I'll try and find time this weekend to properly work on the infrastructure. Apr 28 20:25:24 GeneralAntilles: Have submissions go straight into a DB including submitter Apr 28 20:25:41 GeneralAntilles: Have a self-hosted EtherPad being continually updated Apr 28 20:25:56 GeneralAntilles: Seems like a quicker win than what crashanddie and I had originally planned Apr 28 20:26:05 Stskeeps: Ah, I see. Apr 28 20:26:13 Jaffa: that might also make it easier for you and me to hint at who's writing the summary. ;) Apr 28 20:27:34 Stskeeps: Some kind of "what do you want MWKN to be, how do you want it to work" BoF... Apr 28 20:27:37 GeneralAntilles: :-) Apr 28 20:27:54 Jaffa: did we ever got a final result on that name change poll? Apr 28 20:29:49 GeneralAntilles: "MWKN Weekly News" is my conclusion. Still like dneary's tagline of "We go meekly" (which may turn out to be true if you & I drift away from M[ae]e[mG]o stuff over the next 12 months Apr 28 20:30:50 Jaffa: http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/04/meego-de-that-is-how-you-do-it.html Apr 28 20:30:52 For stats, unique visitors to mwkn.net has been ~7,500 per month for the first three months of this year Apr 28 20:31:13 * lbt blows own trumpet for mkwn :) Apr 28 20:31:22 lbt: indeed :) Apr 28 20:31:46 Jaffa: maybe talk to DawnFoster and qg Apr 28 20:32:39 Interesting. Bandwidth consumed was ~7GB and there were 170,000 hits. Apr 28 20:33:32 Seems like a lot of bandwidth. Apr 28 20:33:46 wonder if mwkn.meego.com should redirect Apr 28 20:33:55 Hmm, looks like two IPs are doing most of it. Apr 28 20:34:37 lbt, clearly it should. *g* Apr 28 20:34:52 Some bloggers might argue that'd be unfair. Apr 28 20:34:56 should you change the name to Meaeemgoo Weekly News Apr 28 20:35:02 Us taking away their livings and all. Apr 28 20:35:06 aw Apr 28 20:35:39 Someone in Sweden has an RSS client which is refreshing the feed every 5 minutes. Apr 28 20:35:58 Maemo *WEEKLY* News . . . Apr 28 20:36:01 special rss message just for them ? Apr 28 20:36:17 lbt: Indeed, thinking of doing that. Apr 28 20:36:21 lbt: Will sort it tomorrow. Apr 28 20:36:53 "Aliens have been spotted using N900s with MeeGo 1.3 ..." Apr 28 20:37:07 Given that c-eea3e655.205-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se and omfg.fbnet.org have both done over 2GB this month to date, and the next IP in the top 10 host has used 1MB... Apr 28 20:37:26 goddam users Apr 28 20:38:51 Both are fetching the RSS feed every 5 minutes. FFS. Apr 28 20:56:47 Jaffa: re mailing lists, I quite agree, far too spread out Apr 28 20:57:09 and I looked at the meego.com website frontpage for the first time in some weeks and the last news on there is more than a month old Apr 28 20:57:18 lardman: I don't mind it as long as the big stuff is cross-posted. Apr 28 20:57:36 lardman: Someone got shouted at for cross-posting the call for papers (IIRC) beyond meego-events. Apr 28 20:58:00 would be useful for some of it to be collated for those of us who don't have an immediate reason to try reading them all Apr 28 20:58:16 hmm, well that's a bit silly really imho Apr 28 20:59:08 lardman: +1 Apr 28 20:59:17 Stskeeps' of some kind of weekly digest could catch on ;-) Apr 28 21:11:14 oh crap, missed a pm from fiferboy, someone please apologise to him for me tomorrow if I'm not about to do so myself Apr 28 21:11:55 so not having been around for a while (work is busy), how's the N900 port coming along, and any clues on the upcoming Nokia hw? Apr 28 21:12:14 lardman, n900-de is awesome Apr 28 21:12:22 fully working? Apr 28 21:12:24 really neat looking Apr 28 21:12:29 not last couple of days Apr 28 21:12:33 but on the whole, yeah Apr 28 21:12:53 cool, will have to give it a go Apr 28 21:13:04 :D Apr 28 21:13:12 there is even a camera app now Apr 28 21:13:28 that takes out of focus photos (which needs some tlc) Apr 28 21:13:34 hmm, I could even try to address some mBarcode bugs and port it across then...: Apr 28 21:14:06 my feeling is still that everything is somewhat up in the air, I hope I am wrong with that Apr 28 21:14:17 though updating the website might help to allay fears Apr 28 21:17:38 updating what website? Apr 28 21:18:07 meego.com Apr 28 21:18:40 to say what? "we're really not dead"? :-) Apr 28 21:18:54 I think continuing to produce code is a more effective way to do that Apr 28 21:19:37 perhaps, though that's quite hard to see from the outside tbh Apr 28 21:19:58 outside of release times (of which there is one coming up), it may be a little bit, yes Apr 28 21:20:12 well perhaps is the wrong word, yes code is good, but it would be nice to see some sort of community stuff on the main page rather than static content Apr 28 21:20:35 * w00t_ is confused Apr 28 21:20:56 virtually none of meego.com's front page is static, and it's full of community stuff (blogposts) Apr 28 21:21:12 are we looking at the same thing? Apr 28 21:21:22 hmm, I must have missed that and only see the 1 month old+ news items Apr 28 21:21:46 where are you looking? Apr 28 21:21:54 https://meego.com/ Apr 28 21:22:02 MeeGo blog Apr 28 21:22:02 Latest news from the team Apr 28 21:22:03 http://w00t.dereferenced.net/p/i/imgbin20110428-6796-183lmy6-0.jpg Apr 28 21:22:08 14 February, 2011 - 21:21 Apr 28 21:22:09 w00t_: top news item on front page is the 2/15 damage control Apr 28 21:22:11 read the items under the first one Apr 28 21:22:19 ...or 2/14. Apr 28 21:22:20 the first one is the most important one, but not necessarily the newest one Apr 28 21:22:45 ah my mistake then, I simply looked at the date and presumed that was it Apr 28 21:23:01 w00t_: Ok. But I never bother to scroll down since the first one /should/ be the most recent. :-) Apr 28 21:23:43 * w00t_ tends to just not read meego.com Apr 28 21:23:49 I get all the news elsewhere anyway :-P Apr 28 21:24:07 sure, I was just commenting on the meego.com main page Apr 28 21:25:02 "#meego -- where more aMeeGos get their news than any place else" Apr 28 21:25:39 unfortunately I have to work these days without leaving an eye looking at irc ;) Apr 28 21:26:36 lardman: It's just a joke... kind of a spoof on an ABC News (TV) slogan that they used to use in the US. Apr 28 21:26:39 I'd really be happy to know only two things - whether we are going to get an extras style repo for community code, and what's going on with the ui Apr 28 21:26:52 gabrbedd: ah ok, wrong country then :) Apr 28 21:27:16 where's berndhs where you need him? Apr 28 21:27:24 :-p Apr 28 21:27:38 oh, wait... I think he's in canda. Apr 28 21:28:16 w00t_: what horrific font rendering. Apr 28 21:28:40 GeneralAntilles: I think it may be the jpg artifacts you're seeing Apr 28 21:29:02 w00t_: nope, pretty sure it's the heavy font hinting. :P Apr 28 21:29:31 * w00t_ is fine with it Apr 28 21:29:31 in irc or elsewhere? Perhaps my client is protecting me? Apr 28 21:30:32 lardman: extras-style repo -- AFAIK it's in the works with a lower priority. lbt is either heading it or IN THE THICK OF IT. Apr 28 21:30:49 * gabrbedd didn't mean to do ALL CAPS THERE, SORRY Apr 28 21:31:01 gabrbedd: Appropriate. Apr 28 21:31:02 lardman: As for UI... which UX in particular? Apr 28 21:31:13 But there's only one now! Apr 28 21:31:24 gabrbedd: cool, well I'm glad to hear someone is on the job of extras, and lbt will get it sorted I'm sure Apr 28 21:31:34 gabrbedd: that's the question of course.... Apr 28 21:31:46 Jaffa: only one... what? Apr 28 21:31:50 Except, unless you read meego.com, where the fact that Netbook's adbandonned and Handset's not long for this world, and Tablet doesn't even exist (even if it was a Big Reveal by Intel, who said we were open?) Apr 28 21:31:58 gabrbedd: Only one UX Apr 28 21:32:23 No official announcement, just a continual drip of hint, question and suggestion. Apr 28 21:32:36 So I'm sat thinking about running Ubuntu or Meego on my Galaxy Tab, and I look at the Ubuntu repos and think great, nothing on the Meego side, then I look at the potentil of Meego's finger friendliness and I wonder what the actual UI is these days Apr 28 21:33:30 Jaffa: yeah, it's kind of heading that way. IVI seems to be a holdout, though. Apr 28 21:33:30 excuse my i for an a Apr 28 21:34:32 lardman: http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/439238:hands-on-with-meegos-tablet-ux Apr 28 21:35:08 lardman: Things are headed toward the "MeeGo UX" (a.k.a. Tablet UX) Apr 28 21:35:11 The trouble with IVI is that there MeeGo is a platform for hardware manufacturers, it's not of any real benefit to me as a car owner Apr 28 21:35:15 a la http://lwn.net/Articles/439337/ Apr 28 21:36:05 lardman: But as Jaffa said, there's no official announcements or commitments. That's just where all the action seems to be and the Handset UX is being kind of... shunned by some of the core devs Apr 28 21:36:10 And MeeGo being an OEM OS is fine and dandy, but that's LiMo all over again; and Android's got the better start and mindshare (and, as I said, why do I really care if the headunit in my car runs a custom MeeGo build?) Apr 28 21:36:19 thanks guys - I know this is what's happening because I've been paying at least some attention to the mls, but should this not be on the front page? Apr 28 21:36:52 lardman: Just a couple of hours ago I was bemoaning the fact that there hadn't been an official post to meego-dev or -community about the fact that the 1.2 release has been delayed. Apr 28 21:37:03 Jaffa: quite, I don't see any way to use it, even if it did run perfectly on whatever device Apr 28 21:37:12 Which is a pretty big thing when you're doing time based releases. Apr 28 21:37:19 lardman: IMHO, yes... but I think there's a little bit of a hedge because the Tablet UX came out so close to the 1.2 release. Apr 28 21:37:40 gabrbedd: more info is better than none imo Apr 28 21:37:47 lardman: +1 Apr 28 21:38:14 lardman: Anyway, I'm hoping that a big consumer electronics vendor gets on board and starts producing mainstream devices sooner rather than later. Apr 28 21:38:40 Seems less and less likely. Apr 28 21:38:47 lardman: I'm on the outside with everyone else... so... yeah. Apr 28 21:38:50 Unless you're living in China. Apr 28 21:39:03 and I guess everyone from the commercial interests is quite busy, but for those of us (not overly important) hobbyists, wondering whether bothering to port to the current Meego kernel is worthwhile, it is somewhat important to know that this project is still going Apr 28 21:39:04 Another round of "look, our prototype hardware can run lots of OSes; does some OEM now want to develop and ship 'em" will be the deathknell for MeeGo as a hobbyist/community/open source project Apr 28 21:39:43 lardman: gabrbedd: actually X-Fade and Ferenc are doing a lot of the work there Apr 28 21:39:58 lardman: Except the project isn't clear if it wants to be LiMo providing a stack for OEMs (in which case hobbyists aren't important and it's just a trade body) or whether it's taking on Android as the "next big thing" in mobile OSes Apr 28 21:40:03 lbt: I stand corrected, but thanks too Apr 28 21:40:32 just spreading the blame :) Apr 28 21:40:42 Jaffa: yeah I see that, and twiddle my thumbs waiting for something to happen to push it one way or the other Apr 28 21:40:50 lbt: :) Apr 28 21:41:07 we're actually looking for apps to go into Apps right now Apr 28 21:41:16 if anyone has an Apr 28 21:41:17 y Apr 28 21:41:20 lardman: Nokia would've been pushing the latter as, at some point, there'd be a MeeGo(-compatible) device in shops Apr 28 21:41:35 s/'d/'ll/ Apr 28 21:41:38 actually, Jaffa, that'd be a useful "call to help" .... we need apps Apr 28 21:41:53 thiago_home: True Apr 28 21:41:54 lbt: once I have something to run them on I'd be interested as long as there's a nice tutorial to move from sb to obs/whatever Apr 28 21:42:01 lbt: apps for what, exactly? Apr 28 21:42:13 GeneralAntilles: MeeGo Apr 28 21:42:17 thiago_home: I was kinda suggesting that if Nokia's board had invested in a slightly different strategy, we might've had them already Apr 28 21:42:21 Jaffa: would've - past tense? Apr 28 21:42:28 lbt: I think he means devices Apr 28 21:42:35 Jaffa: indeed. Apr 28 21:42:35 ExoPC/Joggler/N900/Lenovo ... any of them is fine Apr 28 21:42:41 * w00t_ wonders why he just got a bunch of items from meego weekly news in his meego rss feed all at once Apr 28 21:42:44 beagleboard/pandaboard, whatever Apr 28 21:42:46 Jaffa: no Apr 28 21:42:47 nyah Apr 28 21:42:50 w00t_: I fixed the feed Apr 28 21:42:51 Jaffa: schedules haven't changed Apr 28 21:42:57 Jaffa: aha Apr 28 21:42:59 thiago_home: go back farther. Apr 28 21:43:24 dev boards aren't very exciting or indeed useful unless you're a commercial dev or very interested in the platform Apr 28 21:43:32 schedules haven't changed due to the strategy change Apr 28 21:43:33 thiago_home: So Nokia's execution is really so shit that if the board had decided to invest *whatever* was required in MeeGo to make it a success, we *still* wouldn't have the device out yet? Apr 28 21:43:49 correct Apr 28 21:43:51 proper useful hw is the way forwards, and for that we have the N900, Tab, etc., so that's fair enough Apr 28 21:43:54 Jaffa: not all problems can be solved by just throwing endless piles of money at it Apr 28 21:43:57 thiago_home: Since Feb 11th? Apr 28 21:44:04 w00t_: I very much know this. Apr 28 21:44:07 yes Apr 28 21:44:21 thiago_home: Yeah, I meant before that. Apr 28 21:44:43 the device schedule changes are part of why the strategy changes happened, not the other way around Apr 28 21:44:55 thiago_home: Thought as much Apr 28 21:45:23 Which suggests that Nokia do indeed need to outsource as much as possible due to the inability to execute quickly enough :-( Apr 28 21:45:52 I 'spose it's a "how do you get to $X?" "Well, first, I wouldn't start from here" Apr 28 21:46:39 Nokia could've pre-empted the iPhone if they'd put the necessary investment behind Maemo from day 1. Apr 28 21:46:58 GeneralAntilles: some might say that it was excessive attention that derailed a perfectly good project Apr 28 21:47:05 Instead they've faffed their way to irrelevancy. Apr 28 21:47:16 GeneralAntilles: from day 1 it wasn't supposed to be a phone, me thinks? Apr 28 21:47:16 And good riddance to bad rubbish. Apr 28 21:47:35 anidel: s/iPhone/iOS/ then. Apr 28 21:47:50 well in any case that's the past, and the question is what (if anything other than Win Phone 7) they plan to do about the future? Apr 28 21:48:03 lardman: Nothing, it seems :-( Apr 28 21:48:19 There's still talk of "disruptive technologies" but lay off loads of your R&D staff? Hmm. Apr 28 21:48:22 hard to know in the short term, there's probably lots of posturing Apr 28 21:48:23 GeneralAntilles: :) Apr 28 21:48:43 Jaffa: where are the lay-offs coming from? Apr 28 21:48:52 from the Linux guys? Apr 28 21:48:58 lardman: According to The Register and other sites, "mostly from Symbian and MeeGo" Apr 28 21:49:11 "We'll keep these three guys working in the basement for the next three years, check in on them every 3 months or so. See if they've got anything industry rattling." Apr 28 21:49:18 oh, well Symbian I can understand, but Meego too is craptastic Apr 28 21:49:22 lardman: http://conversations.nokia.com/2011/04/27/nokia-announces-next-steps-in-transformation/?sf1382047=1&sf1382053=1 Apr 28 21:49:34 4000 ppl laid off by end of 2012. Apr 28 21:49:49 3000 further moved to Accenture Apr 28 21:49:55 how many people Nokia had working on MeeGo? Apr 28 21:50:07 On the former, "The planned reductions will have the greatest impact on the Symbian and MeeGo" Apr 28 21:50:11 7000 people in total, how many could have been working on MeeGo? Apr 28 21:50:41 lardman: MeeGo is supposed to die in Nokia next year. Apr 28 21:50:48 lardman: Symbian in 2013... Apr 28 21:50:50 about 1000 worked in MeeGo Apr 28 21:50:51 so Apr 28 21:51:04 anidel: re number, that's a good question, and it dying do you have a source? Apr 28 21:51:36 Maybe my N900 won't get thrown out of a window before Nokia's MeeGo-compatible device is released; maybe that'll be sufficient and have just enough of a hobbyist ecosystem until another major manufacturer is deeply committed to mainstream MeeGo handests. Maybe we'll get some promising news next month... Apr 28 21:51:53 * TSCHAKeee is depressed Apr 28 21:52:05 raster still insists Samsung has something worthwhile. Apr 28 21:52:11 this doesn't paint a particularly rosy picture, do we think the promised Harmattan device will also fall by the wayside? Apr 28 21:52:34 raster would never tell you that Enlightment sucks, either Apr 28 21:52:45 mikhas: *g* Apr 28 21:52:55 GeneralAntilles: what in particular? Apr 28 21:53:10 lardman: I wouldn't take any announced plans of Nokia's with a positive light. Apr 28 21:53:15 lardman: something not Bada. Apr 28 21:53:15 certainly not their opensource-friendliness ;) Apr 28 21:53:42 GeneralAntilles: well you can port Meego to Samsung devices without too much hassle, so year Apr 28 21:53:49 yeah Apr 28 21:54:00 perhaps needing a year ;) Apr 28 21:54:08 lardman: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/27/nokia_cuts_memo/ "the majority of MeeGo activities are planned to be discontinued by the end of June 2012" Apr 28 21:54:23 I wonder how long I'll be able to stand using the N900. Apr 28 21:54:45 * thiago_home will just say that el reg got a lot of stuff wrong Apr 28 21:54:51 I will obviously not say what Apr 28 21:54:54 * w00t_ agrees Apr 28 21:54:54 GeneralAntilles: There are times when mine's so slow and laggy I almost throw it across the room Apr 28 21:54:55 Jaffa: that's what I feared Apr 28 21:55:06 thiago_home: w00t_: That's good, they are the Daily Mail of tech journalism Apr 28 21:55:07 Jaffa: me too. Apr 28 21:55:21 I'm looking for something new Apr 28 21:55:29 thiago_home: can't say that makes the picture any less bleak. :) Apr 28 21:55:35 Jaffa: yeah ... a projected activity in IT in 12 months... Apr 28 21:55:37 once a decent handset with a kb comes out I'll be on it Apr 28 21:55:47 need to go home...ttyl Apr 28 21:55:55 thiago_home: w00t_: But, to be brutally honest, it's *possible* in a big organisation which is undergoing such a transformation that they've heard something that hasn't yet been officially percolated to you :-/ Apr 28 21:56:12 * GeneralAntilles has had far too much optimism punished by Nokia to hold out any more. Apr 28 21:56:35 GeneralAntilles, you were born grumpy :P Apr 28 21:56:56 Jaffa: yes, it's possible Apr 28 21:56:58 * Jaffa really hopes (having no experience with anything LG* at all) that the "prototypes" are so much more than that. Apr 28 21:57:00 lcuk, nah, it was beaten into me. Apr 28 21:57:07 I have faith in MeeGo, I don't really care about individual manufacturers Apr 28 21:57:11 Jaffa: but I think I know slightly more than your average leaker though Apr 28 21:57:31 w00t_: without any manufacturers it's all just a lot of handwaving. Apr 28 21:57:36 lcuk, no I think GeneralAntilles is right wrt. Nokia Apr 28 21:57:45 w00t_: Faith in MeeGo for what? A standalone platform for OEMs or a consumer brand and ecosystem like Android? Apr 28 21:57:45 * auke holds a bucket under thiago_home to stop the leakage Apr 28 21:58:01 thiago_home: Fair enough Apr 28 21:58:36 so MeeGo won't dominate the world on the schedule we had for Christmas Apr 28 21:58:37 so what? Apr 28 21:59:00 we'll take more time but we'll do it right Apr 28 21:59:17 hum ... I heard that before Apr 28 21:59:19 ;-) Apr 28 21:59:29 mikhas, was just typing that. . . . Apr 28 22:00:15 thiago_home: So (and this'll sound churlish and selfish), I've invested my time in seeing the platform grow from 2005. I don't want a device which'll be dropped by its manufacturer, will not have any of the shiny services other platforms have because of a lack of commercial uptake. Apr 28 22:00:30 I don't suffer much lag from M5/N900, but it takes some discipline to avoid.. Apr 28 22:00:46 ShadowJK: mostly caused by evil JS-heavy websites. Apr 28 22:01:02 thiago_home: So, we'll all go away, wait for someone to do something (To Be Defined) with MeeGo and in the meantime start buying and developing for other OSes. Why'd we come back? Apr 28 22:01:10 * lcuk goes and finds out if portal2 will run on ubuntu Apr 28 22:01:16 thiago_home: Now, if MeeGo's aim *is* to be a standalone OEM proposition, none of that matters. Apr 28 22:01:33 at this point, I don't know Apr 28 22:01:56 but given that Android has decided to close the source, we have a vacuum to fill Apr 28 22:02:03 the industry attention that we had hasn't changed Apr 28 22:02:08 Jaffa: if it doesn't get uptake from OEMs, it won't get that commercial uptake you want, so what else would its aim be? Apr 28 22:02:13 ShadowJK: GeneralAntilles: I've stopped using my Bluetooth headphones and try and make sure no app is running when I'm not using it :-( Apr 28 22:02:47 gnite guys \o Apr 28 22:02:47 * GeneralAntilles notes the Lenovo finally updated Ubuntu. Apr 28 22:03:11 lcuk: nite Apr 28 22:03:18 GeneralAntilles, i use opera almost always now. It really shines. Except when a site doesn't work in it. Fennec, well, just displaying google.com makes you bash your head against brickwall :) Apr 28 22:03:38 w00t_: I'm trying to suggest there is a difference in strategy between developing an offering which is useful to the mfrs but of little benefit to end-users (e.g. Android in photocopiers or car headunits or GPSes); or whether MeeGo builds a brand and an ecosystem (like Android) which is largely common across a wide plethora of devices. Apr 28 22:04:03 and i'm not even counting startup time for fennec Apr 28 22:04:06 * gabrbedd thinks we'll have a better picture of MeeGo's future after the SF conference. Apr 28 22:04:07 Jaffa: I don't see them as mutually exclusive Apr 28 22:04:38 w00t_: The latter is still an OEM proposition, indeed. Apr 28 22:04:43 MeeGo on more devices, benefits the MeeGo brand Apr 28 22:05:18 * GeneralAntilles notes updating to 11.04 with Firefox in fullscreen is a Bad Idea. Apr 28 22:05:20 w00t_: But if, as a consumer, I don't see "MeeGo"; why do I care about it? (Apart from elements of cost and developer tools for custom apps) Apr 28 22:05:35 w00t_: That's what the first strategy means. Apr 28 22:06:05 w00t_: It means the consumer advantage of OEMs picking MeeGo is reduced cost. But there's no taking Angry Birds and running it on your car, for example. Apr 28 22:07:10 thiago_home: BTW, your point about taking the time to "do it right" doesn't help when iOS and Android are iterating and innovating more quickly. So the gap'll just increase unless there's some magic pixie dust which means not only will it be right but more'll get done in the same amount of time :- Apr 28 22:07:16 Jaffa, why? if the device is compliant it should have access to some kind of store or mall and hence angry birds on the motorway is on Apr 28 22:07:17 well, afaik, nothing stops app stores (like AppUp) from installing to your car Apr 28 22:07:21 * lcuk is not here though Apr 28 22:07:24 ...whether or not that answers your question... Apr 28 22:07:40 Technically, sure. Apr 28 22:07:41 Jaffa: indeed. Running after the leaders isn't easy. Apr 28 22:08:22 the solution is to do something different, something they don't do Apr 28 22:08:30 don't try to beat them at their game, change the game Apr 28 22:08:35 But if that *is* the aim of the MeeGo project; how about picking an architectural and UI strategy and actually delivering it? Apr 28 22:08:58 ouch Apr 28 22:09:01 Jaffa: what sort of strategy? Apr 28 22:09:04 thiago_home: Brilliant inspirational stuff; but also hard to do in an open way. Apr 28 22:09:31 "do it in an open way" is the game-changing Apr 28 22:09:35 w00t_: Any. One which delivers *something*. Rather than "ah, this release our UX will be $RANDOM" Apr 28 22:09:46 Jaffa: and yes, pick one strategy and do it Apr 28 22:09:49 thiago_home: Right. Now let's see that actually being done. Apr 28 22:09:55 No more big reveals. Apr 28 22:09:59 agreed Apr 28 22:10:09 RANDOM=xbmc Apr 28 22:10:21 Jaffa: that's easier said than done Apr 28 22:10:26 TSG getting involved in discussions rather than rubber stamping "working groups" that were decided on some teleconference. Apr 28 22:10:57 Jaffa: tbh, I much prefer that to the TSG handing down everything Apr 28 22:11:06 let the decisions be made by the people who are doing the work Apr 28 22:11:19 w00t_: I know. But I've been involved in a strategic shift for a company following a "we change or we die" moment, which involved massive shifts in technology; process and retraining. Apr 28 22:11:39 (especially when I get the feeling, given some of the recent conversations on meego-dev etc, that Nokia were supposed to do work that basically wasn't done - you can't exactly plan for that) Apr 28 22:11:40 which company? when? what? Apr 28 22:11:45 w00t_: But we carefully thought about things at the beginning, but realised we also had to deliver something which people would buy in 3-4 years when we were finished. Apr 28 22:11:48 what was the outcome, I mean Apr 28 22:12:24 mikhas: The outcome is that after millions of GBP in internal investment, our first client went live a few months ago; two more are going live this year and there are three other implementation projects now starting up Apr 28 22:12:37 mikhas: Bit of a relief really :-) Apr 28 22:12:49 (first client on the new platform) Apr 28 22:13:50 w00t_: Of course, with hindsight more open discussion and less closed thinking would've revealed those problems earlier. Apr 28 22:14:33 * lardman thinks we should have Maemo re-union meeting rather than a Meego conf, or perhaps combine the two Apr 28 22:14:41 w00t_: MeeGo wasn't my strategy; but how can you have faith in something which no-one *needs* to have succeed Apr 28 22:15:19 As a corp. Intel don't need MeeGo to succeed; neither do anyone else involved. Nokia did, as it was the one life line. Apr 28 22:15:39 Jaffa: that's wrong Apr 28 22:15:39 lardman: Presume you're not going to the US? Apr 28 22:15:49 w00t_: Which bit? Apr 28 22:16:08 unfortunately no time, but will try hard to make an Autumn conf assuming there's one on Apr 28 22:16:10 Intel aren't just doing this out of the good charitable nature of their heart, they have reasons for pushing this along and staying involved - especially now Apr 28 22:16:20 Jaffa: that's actually one reason why we chose a MeeGo strategy... because at the time it looked like Nokia /needed/ MeeGo to succeed. Apr 28 22:16:33 w00t_: I didn't say they were being charitable, nor that there aren't commercial interests in it. Apr 28 22:16:52 Nokia never *needed* this to succeed, as witnessed by february 11, there are plenty of other options for them to explore - perhaps in tandem Apr 28 22:17:19 w00t_: But Intel won't fail if MeeGo does. It sells chips. Those chips run Windows, Android, MeeGo, .... LF doesn't need MeeGo; hell it sponsored the Android Builder Summit. Apr 28 22:17:46 likewise, I don't *need* MeeGo Apr 28 22:17:49 w00t_: Nokia's strategy *up* to Feb 11th was that MeeGo was the future for competing in the next gen mobile space. With that strategy, Nokia *did* need MeeGo to succeed. Apr 28 22:17:59 it is where I choose to put my time and efforts, though Apr 28 22:18:12 (both for work and play) Apr 28 22:18:14 They just changed the strategy, so now they need WP7 to succeed Apr 28 22:18:26 w00t_: Absolutely. Apr 28 22:18:29 no, they don't even need that, inertia will carry them a long way Apr 28 22:19:18 though arguably less far now they've set their platform on fire :- Apr 28 22:19:18 ) Apr 28 22:19:27 Fine, "they need WP7 to succeed [to be seen as a viable competitor to Apple and Samsung/HTC/... in the high end mobile supersmartphone next-generation OS space]" Apr 28 22:19:50 i.e. they *need* WP7 to succeed to make the corporate strategy succeed. Apr 28 22:19:59 That's not to say the corporate strategy can't be changed again. Apr 28 22:20:21 But which companies involved in MeeGo have a coprorate strategy which is dependent on MeeGo's success? Apr 28 22:20:42 the OEMs Apr 28 22:20:54 Which OEMs? Apr 28 22:21:07 there are some producing netbooks, I forget who Apr 28 22:21:16 Fujitsu have a MeeGo netbook. Apr 28 22:21:18 .. and obviously, whoever else jumps on board Apr 28 22:21:29 (oh, wetab too, if you consider them a mfg) Apr 28 22:21:37 but will people jump on board now? Apr 28 22:21:42 Not one which is going to change the world, no ;-) Apr 28 22:22:00 lardman: I don't know Apr 28 22:22:00 wetab ... ahem Apr 28 22:22:03 (safest answer) Apr 28 22:22:10 well, if that's your strategy, you're fucked Apr 28 22:22:10 but my thoughts are that there is a market need for MeeGo Apr 28 22:22:29 But Fujitsu have *one* MeeGo netbook in one market. That's hardly the core of the corporate strategy. Apr 28 22:22:34 * mikhas played with one this week Apr 28 22:22:54 I think there's a need for something, but whether a company would go with Meego and the infighting and requirement to be open all the time vs doing it in house, I don't know.... Apr 28 22:23:08 w00t_: thiago_home's point there about an open source (i.e. cheap) contender to Android with the closed source development is valid. Apr 28 22:23:20 lardman: there's no requirement for _vendors_ to be open all the time Apr 28 22:23:31 even if it is probably statistically cheaper for them to do that Apr 28 22:23:37 w00t_: But that relegate's MeeGo to the Windows CE of the Chinese bottom feeders; since the big manufacturers (Samsung, Motorola et al) can still get the Honeycomb source Apr 28 22:23:59 w00t_: but even the standard packages are changing day by day, so that advantage is also not present Apr 28 22:24:12 lardman: in meego.com, they are Apr 28 22:24:17 nothing stops you forking meego.com's obs Apr 28 22:24:18 lardman: A company would have to be pretty convinced (or desperate) to buy totally in to a platform which (from their point of view) was abandonned by one of its creators. Apr 28 22:24:29 in fact, i'd expect any sane vendor to do pretty much exactly that Apr 28 22:24:35 Jaffa: quite, or they could pick the bones and go in house Apr 28 22:24:39 Jaffa, dont you think it's the other way around? Apr 28 22:24:44 you want to build on a stable, unchanging platform Apr 28 22:24:47 also, i agree with mikhas Apr 28 22:24:55 with nokia not beng there, there's *more* reason for others to jump in Apr 28 22:25:11 more chance for differentiation, and less chance of being competed with by the people supposedly building the platform Apr 28 22:25:14 yes, Nokia can be scary Apr 28 22:25:18 Have you ever been in a corporate risk meeting, *especially* around technology? Apr 28 22:25:37 and I actually think that the recent activities with the handset WG mirror that Apr 28 22:25:48 w00t_: More risk for you, because you haven't got an industry behemoth doing the heavy lifting Apr 28 22:26:21 I dont get that part, really. Apr 28 22:26:25 Jaffa: I'm not arguing that there is risk Apr 28 22:26:51 mikhas: It depends who you imagine the vendor is. Apr 28 22:26:55 but really, when you have a platform that is fairly well advanced software-wise (finally), and still have one huge company pouring resources into it, it's a calculated risk Apr 28 22:27:31 (not that I imagine nokia will jump out yet either, even assuming the register is 100% complete and they're firing the last of the meego people in what, 2013? Apr 28 22:27:34 ) Apr 28 22:27:40 *correct Apr 28 22:27:53 If I'm a relatively small handset manufacturer, Android look(s|ed) attractive to me because I could get it at low cost and start shifting devices which would be known to work; I could differentiate on cost or quality/features - but basically I had no concerns about my software platform. Apr 28 22:28:15 why? Apr 28 22:28:23 (as in, why do you have no concerns) Apr 28 22:28:38 If I'm a relatively small handset manufacturer, MeeGo does *not* look attractive to me, because I have to do more of the work to get it to the same level to compete with the people using Android (say) Apr 28 22:28:42 as a small handset manufacturer, there is no guarentee you can get any future versions of Android Apr 28 22:28:46 w00t_: Because it's a proven technology shipped on millions of devices. Apr 28 22:28:55 how is that risk-free? Apr 28 22:29:08 different risks Apr 28 22:29:14 w00t_: I didn't say (or mean to say) risk-free. Apr 28 22:29:17 of course, right now, MeeGo isn't ready Apr 28 22:29:18 But the risk is hedged/punted. Apr 28 22:29:22 okay, perhaps I misinterpreted Apr 28 22:29:25 And the costs are lower. Apr 28 22:29:29 there is equally no guarantee that you'll get a future version of Meego though Apr 28 22:29:32 so you can't just get it for free and put on your devices. You need to put some R&D into it. Apr 28 22:29:36 Whereas with MeeGo my costs are higher and the risks are higher. Apr 28 22:29:40 lardman: in what sense? Apr 28 22:29:50 w00t_: What if Intel abandon it too? Apr 28 22:29:51 cf future versions on Android Apr 28 22:29:56 s/on/of Apr 28 22:30:03 Jaffa: there is that risk, yes Apr 28 22:30:19 but you end up with something different, otherwise you do yet another cheap android phone Apr 28 22:30:29 Well, but that's the whole idea, no? The costs of furthering MeeGo Core is carried by all vendors. Which is still much cheaper as if one vendor had to do it all alone. Apr 28 22:30:49 mikhas: the argument is that there is no point in paying to do meego, because android is done Apr 28 22:30:51 agreed, as long as a decent number of vendors are involved Apr 28 22:31:02 to mikhas that was Apr 28 22:31:02 I don't really agree with that, because that leaves you with basically nothing to differentiate on except price Apr 28 22:31:08 w00t_, hm, software is never "done" Apr 28 22:31:08 if you're satisfied with android, use it Apr 28 22:31:21 if you need something sligthly different, good luck convincing Google Apr 28 22:31:22 and when you look at the prices of e.g. the ZTE blade, there isn't much differentiation you can do without paying people to use your devices.. Apr 28 22:31:33 i agree with w00t fighting on price is not a good position Apr 28 22:31:39 Now, if I'm a *big* manufacturer (let's say HTC (now) or Samsung): there's no way I would've made MeeGo the core of my business whilst Nokia were the only people shipping (or going to ship) MeeGo handsets. I'd wait to see how there's panned out. But I do want to differentiate from the other Android manufacturers. But if Nokia have done a cost/benefit analysis and decided MeeGo doesn't let them compete with *me*, why am I going to move to the platform they aba Apr 28 22:31:51 there are new concepts, new ideas all the time. once you realize you cannot influence the direction of Android, MeeGo starts to look very attractive Apr 28 22:32:15 Jaffa: so, going by that logic, why are there now suddenly manufacturers in the handset WG where before, there was nokia? Apr 28 22:32:23 for r&d perhaps, but not your mainline products Apr 28 22:32:40 Because it's an industry body to join to hedge your bets and do R&D Apr 28 22:33:10 Jaffa: you may also notice that Nokia's ambition is slightly higher Apr 28 22:33:24 but equally we're not in a position where much is finalised afaict, so developing new cutting edge UIs isn't the game plan atm Apr 28 22:33:28 w00t_: The flipside of your argument is why does the Linux Foundation support, and encourage adoption of, LiMo; MeeGo and Android - if MeeGo is "their" platform of the future Apr 28 22:33:54 Jaffa: the role of the LF is to further linux, not meego Apr 28 22:33:58 the LF has as their business foster open source and linux Apr 28 22:34:11 if XYZ matches that, they'll encourage it Apr 28 22:34:18 w00t_: And yes, if you can get to the point where manufacturers are collaborating on a new platform, you've reinvented OHA but without Google. That may or may not be a good thing (for me), but there are probably good reasons for it as a manufacturer. Apr 28 22:34:28 I'd say they may have their preferences as to which they'd rather see 'win' in the end (more and less open), but, if it's linux, it's in their interests Apr 28 22:34:35 And *exactly* the same applies to $VENDOR's stock price. Apr 28 22:34:53 Jaffa: OHA is why android got to where it is now Apr 28 22:35:26 android had several years' headstart Apr 28 22:35:34 thiago_home: literally, yeah Apr 28 22:35:38 thiago_home: And more now, according to your "and we can get it right" Apr 28 22:35:43 android did not start with the g1 Apr 28 22:35:47 i read about it the other day, started in 2005 Apr 28 22:36:02 oh, sorry, no Apr 28 22:36:05 purchased by google in 2005 Apr 28 22:36:12 Maemo started in 2004. Time doesn't make you the winner, execution does. Money does. Investment does. Apr 28 22:36:13 so presumably started before that, even Apr 28 22:36:47 Jaffa: execution has always been maemo's problem more so than money, I really think Apr 28 22:37:09 the vision has always been there, the execution of it, less so Apr 28 22:37:34 My point is that all the evidence so far suggests that no major manufacturer is going to invest in mainstream MeeGo devices within 6 months. And they'll effectively be the first consumer MeeGo devices in the same way that the first WP7 devices show "promise" but have rough edges. Apr 28 22:37:57 well, there will be harmattan Apr 28 22:37:58 Jaffa: appearances can be deceiving Apr 28 22:38:05 (if nothing else) Apr 28 22:38:08 So, add on another 6-12 months (depending on level of investment (i.e. commitment)) to get those polished off. Apr 28 22:38:23 but.. i'd also really expect this year to be the year when more meego products start appearing anyway Apr 28 22:38:31 we're now just over a year since meego's start Apr 28 22:38:38 * auke wonders about #meego-bar :) Apr 28 22:38:57 auke: they're probably discussing development Apr 28 22:39:07 hehehe Apr 28 22:39:09 w00t_: And, we know from Nokia, that there is nothing else. So Harmattan is - perhaps unfairly now - a plaything to experiment with MeeGo APIs for brave developers before the "real" devices start shipping. Apr 28 22:39:20 i'm sorry, but this is a "general discussion about meego" (per the topic) :-p Apr 28 22:39:54 I should probably go onto hacking anyway Apr 28 22:40:07 meego != nokia ... ;) Apr 28 22:40:10 I have patches that won't write themselves Apr 28 22:40:15 w00t_: "More MeeGo products" - there's approximately one so far. Available in one country. + the STB guys (but that's my OEM argument - it's of no interest to me if my STB runs MeeGo) Apr 28 22:40:57 Jaffa, it's pretty awesome you can install XBMC on it ;-) Apr 28 22:41:31 Random thought - it seems to me that being able to develop in-house is faster than needing to do it in the open, is this a fundamental problem for the mobile phone industry trying to use a shared version of Linux? Apr 28 22:41:36 auke: That's my point - the project needs to choose a direction; and my contention is that MeeGo == Intel & ...? doesn't have the same motivation to see MeeGo's short term success in the consumer market that Nokia had. Apr 28 22:42:14 Jaffa: otoh, it might actually have more motivation to getting software in a shippable state Apr 28 22:42:58 w00t_: But which software do you focus on? Given that both WeTab and the Harmattan device have custom UXes... Apr 28 22:43:34 Jaffa: http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-ux/ Apr 28 22:43:48 w00t_: So, and this is the point that lbt was trying to make after #feb11 (but was told, "Nokia pulling back doesn't affect MeeGo like that"), forget the large investment in "reference" UXes. Apr 28 22:44:09 why? Apr 28 22:44:25 if anything, they are more crucial than ever Apr 28 22:44:30 w00t_: I'd rather the investment in the stack from the kernel to the UI framework which allowed compelling UIs whilst doing excellent battery management autonomously. Apr 28 22:44:40 w00t_: Because nobody's shipping them. Apr 28 22:44:51 or do you really think that OEMs would have built anything on android when handed an image which booted to a console...? :) Apr 28 22:45:05 w00t_: And every time a MeeGo vendor shows something it's billed in the press as "MeeGo's new UI" Apr 28 22:45:22 the media is stupid Apr 28 22:45:26 not much you can do about that Apr 28 22:45:27 w00t_: I don't disagree Apr 28 22:46:02 w00t_: Presumably building something from scratch to a console, with good battery management and something like Qt & QML, would be Hard. And therefore being given that as bootable image is shiny. Apr 28 22:46:05 I think a working reference set of apps is needed to demonstrate what could be done, but vendors will want to differentiate so really the main work should, as Jaffa said, go into the underlying core Apr 28 22:46:30 the underlying core is in place, it works, and works well Apr 28 22:46:43 (and it has since 1.0) Apr 28 22:46:45 But if the expectation (and experience to date) is that each manufacturer will develop their own UI, the investment there in the core should be as little as possible. Apr 28 22:46:49 battery management? Apr 28 22:46:49 w00t_: I find that very hard to believe. Apr 28 22:46:53 I haven't seen anybody making products out of it Apr 28 22:47:05 lardman: n900 != every other device Apr 28 22:47:07 w00t_: Writing a QML app doesn't stop updating the screen when it's out of focus or the display is locked Apr 28 22:47:18 Jaffa: according to you, UX isn't the focus Apr 28 22:47:27 w00t_: sure, what other devices does it have great battery management on? Apr 28 22:47:37 w00t_: ? Apr 28 22:47:57 lardman: anything that can charge a battery? I dunno, it manages to charge my lenovo just fine Apr 28 22:47:59 w00t_: Qt & QML are part of the core delivery. Building a UI shell which nobody ships shouldn't be the focus. Apr 28 22:48:21 Jaffa: screen locking is part of the UI shell Apr 28 22:48:24 w00t_: charging != efficient use/management of course ;) Apr 28 22:48:32 Jaffa: 'out of focus' is part of the UI shell Apr 28 22:49:02 w00t_: I don't mean "battery management" as in "I can plug it in and it recharges" nor "I leave it sitting on a table and it lasts a day". I mean it makes it harder to write battery sucking apps than it is to write battery saving apps (even with whizzy UI effects) Apr 28 22:49:10 w00t_: I'm sorry, you've lost me. Apr 28 22:49:35 * ShadowJK vaguely recalls someone finding some sensor code that constantly polls the sensor. Maybe that was acc, or als, I forget :) Apr 28 22:49:40 Jaffa: screen locking, and focusing of applications, everything to do with application interaction in fact is, part of a UX Apr 28 22:49:41 Jaffa: well sitting on a table and lasting a day would be good for starters ;) Apr 28 22:50:05 Jaffa: QML already won't draw when it isn't visible, as far as I'm aware, so if your UX doesn't tell QML it isn't visible, that is your UX's problem Apr 28 22:50:12 and per your definition, out of scope Apr 28 22:50:44 w00t_: OK, so if the UX *is* in the core - by your contention - that battery management's all there, or planned to be right? Because no-one's talking about it and there's various articles about "how to ensure your app doesn't draw too much power" Apr 28 22:50:52 UX cant be out of scope since we need to provide the integration Apr 28 22:51:14 Jaffa: competing requirements Apr 28 22:51:28 w00t_: Are you being deliberately argumentative? I said "as little as possible", if that includes hook points for power management that's a requirement for the core. Apr 28 22:51:35 So somewhere QT discards focus information that it receives from X? Apr 28 22:51:43 tbqh, I'm all in favor of a device which only allows one application to run at a time, and has functionality to soft-shutdown apps that background Apr 28 22:51:58 ShadowJK, once you enter QGraphicsView territory, yes Apr 28 22:52:20 it would be much friendlier on battery life, and other resource usage Apr 28 22:52:25 but window activation and window focus handling (as in: X11 window) is always there Apr 28 22:52:56 Jaffa: i'm not, i'm trying to understand where you're coming from Apr 28 22:52:59 w00t_: Besides, battery management is more than just "don't draw". It's disabling timers, it's providing APIs to align network access (as the heartbeat stuff on Maemo tried to do) Apr 28 22:53:04 Jaffa: i don't think we fundamentally disagree Apr 28 22:53:06 well, "always" - if you have a X11 window manager Apr 28 22:53:14 w00t_: I'm saying you say the MeeGo core is there. Apr 28 22:53:23 Err, scratch that. Apr 28 22:53:26 That was silly. Apr 28 22:54:23 honestly, all platforms (maemo, android, the lot) suck at battery Apr 28 22:54:30 I have 8 xterms on my N900/Maemo now, streaming various data, I'd hate it if I had to cycle between them constantly to keep them running in order to not lose data ;p Apr 28 22:54:45 ShadowJK: running != painting Apr 28 22:54:46 w00t_: I believe you said the MeeGo Core is basically "done" (FSVO "done"). I'm saying that, unless there's a load of cool stuff I'm not aware of (in which case it needs advertising more), there is still loads of room for architectural designs from the kernel all the way to the UI framework (and, if you want, your reference UX) to make it *easy* to be well-behaved and conserve as much power as possible. Apr 28 22:55:02 Jaffa: yeah Apr 28 22:55:05 Jaffa: wayland! Apr 28 22:55:12 w00t_: What happened to "MeeGo can do something different to compete"? ;-) Apr 28 22:55:15 Jaffa: 'done' in that context was 'it runs on devices, and runs well' Apr 28 22:55:28 I don't think software is ever really done Apr 28 22:55:50 There's a lot of strength in Apple's argument that "we'll let you multitask using these APIs to accomplish certain tasks in the background" and then grow those APIs over time. Apr 28 22:55:55 well is in the eye of the beholder Apr 28 22:56:12 I still think a good solution would be to SIGSTOP backgrounded processes (plus other magic to force close resources that aren't asked to be kept open) Apr 28 22:56:41 though I've not tried the most recent Meego releases on the N900, but certainly they previously worked well to warm my hands while holding the device Apr 28 22:57:00 lardman: the n900 had no power management at all, it does now, so the situation has improved Apr 28 22:57:04 wayland Apr 28 22:57:05 systemd Apr 28 22:57:07 I think in the DE images, the screen even turns off Apr 28 22:57:08 w00t_: I've been proposing that for years on maemo-developers and certain @nokia.com email addresses said "just fix the buggy applications, all you need to do is turn on R&D mode, SSH in, run powertop, add debug symbols so you can see what it is that's doing the work, profile the app and then you're done" Apr 28 22:57:13 plenty of new stuff coming... Apr 28 22:57:37 auke: coming to Meego? Apr 28 22:57:39 hello?? Apr 28 22:57:43 lardman: yup Apr 28 22:57:45 lardman: sure Apr 28 22:57:55 systemd is pretty much done for 1.3 Apr 28 22:58:01 the core is finished Apr 28 22:58:05 Jaffa: i'm actually open to helping patch this sort of implementation up and work at upstreaming it into the reference ux as an option Apr 28 22:58:07 Anyone here running meego on an eeepc 900a? Apr 28 22:58:09 which is great, but again it's a moving target, and moving rather fast afaict Apr 28 22:58:12 wayland is in pdev stage Apr 28 22:58:17 Hydreee: was, ages ago, yes Apr 28 22:58:23 auke: But isn't there a need to design APIs for app authors to fit into? Or is the thought that ideal autonomous power management can be fully autonomous? Apr 28 22:58:27 auke: pdev? Apr 28 22:58:40 product development(?) Apr 28 22:58:41 dev/proto Apr 28 22:58:51 typo, I just meant 'dev' Apr 28 22:59:01 Cos this is really interesting stuff, but where's the wiki page describing the plan for how it all fits together? Where're the interesting design discussions about how to make it work happening? Apr 28 22:59:05 that also doesn't make sense. Everything is in development :-) Apr 28 22:59:06 auke, is it realistic to expect wayland for 1.3 already? Apr 28 22:59:12 Jaffa: +1 Apr 28 22:59:18 mikhas: wayland in 1.3 would be "you can play with it" Apr 28 22:59:24 not "entire system working perfectly with it" Apr 28 22:59:34 thiago_home: depends Apr 28 22:59:36 Jaffa: meego arch list for some stuff Apr 28 22:59:38 it's quite far along Apr 28 22:59:43 thiago_home, well, I can already imagine how it will go Apr 28 22:59:47 auke: Sorry, don't believe you. Apr 28 22:59:56 wayland will be a 'toy' until late 1.3 Apr 28 22:59:57 there will be a kill list of apps/libs that use Xlib Apr 28 23:00:01 auke: I don't mean your (good) announcement of "systemd is coming soon" Apr 28 23:00:06 Auke: maybe you can help me... i install meego just fine off the USB, but it won't boot without the USB drive plugged in. How do I make it boot from the local drive? Apr 28 23:00:07 Jaffa: most features are still in internal discussion Apr 28 23:00:10 auke: I'm subscribed to meego-arch - I'm an architecture. Apr 28 23:00:16 auke: someone should be employed to parse the lists and generate blog posts summarising useful info then I'd say Apr 28 23:00:19 auke: Right. Why is it internal discussion? Apr 28 23:00:23 s/an architecture/an architect/ Apr 28 23:00:35 auke: We've just been discussing that MeeGo competes on openness... Apr 28 23:00:51 I try to do my part - hence my systemd posts Apr 28 23:00:55 the other people need to do their parts Apr 28 23:00:58 any company discusses what they want to invest on privately first Apr 28 23:01:02 (and your conference talks) Apr 28 23:01:20 it is a little unrealistic for things to be open from day 0 Apr 28 23:01:35 w00t_, actually I think when not using any of the buggy things, N900/Maemo has excellent battery life. Like, I have 2 days standby with xchat following 30-something irc channels (on 2g and wifi), and a simple irc-powersaving script (I meant to make a proper powersaving proxy but havent had time yet). Considering it wasn't that many years ago that xchat on my PC was so heavy that I could tell by everything else pausing whenever GTK was adding another text Apr 28 23:01:38 thiago_home: What the aim and ideal for the project and what people are willing to pay for are different. Apr 28 23:01:41 it's hard to tell people that they also need to start announcing their work to the public before it is working :) Apr 28 23:01:41 line of chat, 2 days on a tiny battery seems just awesome :-) Apr 28 23:01:54 w00t_: yes, but while things are happening behind closed doors it's nice for those outside to know what the direction is Apr 28 23:01:54 I found this post, but I can not edit the extlinux.conf because I don't have permissions... this is my first time using a linux os. :( ugh! Apr 28 23:01:54 ShadowJK: it has excellent battery life if you don't use it Apr 28 23:01:55 w00t_: Sorry, that's a bullshit argument and one we've been hearing since 2005. "You can't expect things to change overnight" Apr 28 23:01:55 http://likeablebias.wordpress.com/2010/08/08/meego-linux-on-asus-eeepc-900a/ Apr 28 23:02:00 once you use it, it goes downhill fast Apr 28 23:02:10 Jaffa: no, it really isn't feasible Apr 28 23:02:12 afk boring meeting with other managers, bbl Apr 28 23:02:29 even in oss-land, individuals decide when _they_ are ready to talk about their work Apr 28 23:02:46 and they often compete in secret Apr 28 23:02:50 auke: But it's not an architecture list, nor will you ever have any input into designing a system which meet's application authors' requirements, nor any new architects, if you don't discuss the direction. Apr 28 23:02:55 to varying degrees where I know some people who don't put code in public until they are happy with it Apr 28 23:03:00 only to do this "oh you did the same for 6 months" posts Apr 28 23:03:01 and if you work for a company, a company's decisions are its own Apr 28 23:03:05 (and this is individuals...) Apr 28 23:03:05 where resources get allocated, etc. Apr 28 23:03:13 w00t_: Which is why there are things like the Linux Collaboration Summit, Plumbers Conference and Ubuntu Desktop Summit to try and coordinate in the open Apr 28 23:03:14 in companies, you also have to deal with ..what thiago said Apr 28 23:03:18 meego wants wayland. Sure. Who's going to do the work? Apr 28 23:03:31 anybody raising their hands? Apr 28 23:03:37 btw Apr 28 23:03:44 I am not arguing that meego is *good* at communication Apr 28 23:03:57 nor am I. There's a lot to be improved. Apr 28 23:04:04 w00t_, well, compared to a symbian phone getting 8 hours for "idle on irc" ;p Apr 28 23:04:04 I think there should be a lot more developers talking more about what they do, and doing more of what they do in public places Apr 28 23:04:12 Do you know see that this argument is one where you're saying that MeeGo can *never* succeed at its stated USP: openness. Apr 28 23:04:30 * thiago_home can get 4 days on his N900 in Offline mode. Apr 28 23:04:33 w00t_: should that really be a developer's job though, is that a natural thing for them to do? Apr 28 23:04:41 Jaffa: I'm saying that it can't match your apparant idea of openness, because I don't think that exists except in any utopia Apr 28 23:04:49 lardman, who else could do it? Apr 28 23:04:52 I think it can succeed in being far more open than anything else Apr 28 23:04:55 bloggers? lol ... Apr 28 23:04:57 thiago_home: Why is discussing "we think Wayland will bring benefits X, Y & Z; which we can use with $OTHER_TECH to help power management" preclude the fact that a) you've still got an official architecture team and b) companies who are bought in to those conclusions Apr 28 23:05:04 lardman: in open source land, it is common Apr 28 23:05:14 mikhas: that;s the question, certainly not indies, but I doubt all devs want to blog Apr 28 23:05:20 lardman: go look at planet gnome/kde/* Apr 28 23:05:21 thiago_home: Your argument is the oldest strawman against open source: "anyone will be able to commit to our source tree, so how will we maintain quality" Apr 28 23:05:24 lardman, you could have people that interview devs Apr 28 23:05:30 and do regular write-ups Apr 28 23:05:32 mikhas: indeed Apr 28 23:05:40 not everyone has good writing skills Apr 28 23:05:44 w00t_: What do you think I'm arguing *for*? Apr 28 23:05:45 Jaffa: that's not at all what I'm saying. Apr 28 23:05:50 Hey people, I just installed meego on my eee pc 900a.... how can I change the /boot/extlinux/extlinux.conf file to look for the correct device on boot? Apr 28 23:05:57 Jaffa: I think the discussion on whether Wayland is good is past. People agree it will be good. Apr 28 23:05:58 mikhas: we're singing from the same song sheet on that Apr 28 23:06:07 so the barrier is perhaps not that devs wouldnt want to advertise their stuff, but they simply lack the skills Apr 28 23:06:09 " thiago_home> meego wants wayland. Sure. Who's going to do the work? anybody raising their hands?" Apr 28 23:06:18 Hydreee: use su Apr 28 23:06:22 Jaffa: right. Who is going to do that work? Apr 28 23:06:23 Jaffa: $companyrep coming out 2 months before work even commences and saying "hey, we're budgeting to put wayland on meego" Apr 28 23:06:27 are we waiting for Intel to do it? Apr 28 23:06:31 what is su? Apr 28 23:06:34 ok, then let Intel make their resource decisions. Apr 28 23:06:41 mikhas: or they are more motivated to work than to talk Apr 28 23:06:47 thiago_home: My point is that there's no discussion or vision for *why* it's good or why it contributes to a battery management strategy. Apr 28 23:06:48 lardman, one could try to let interested devs sign up :-) actually, the MeeGo Conf would be an excellent place for such interviews, once more Apr 28 23:06:49 Hydreee: Google Apr 28 23:06:54 haha Apr 28 23:06:57 arghhh Apr 28 23:06:58 w00t_: No. That's not what I'm asking for. Apr 28 23:07:02 Jaffa: because people already agreed it's good. Apr 28 23:07:07 Jaffa: discussion is over. Apr 28 23:07:34 w00t_: I'm saying that "the MeeGo architects" should be communicating and discussing their vision for the project and how technology choices (which then may or may not be implemented by someone willing to do the work) are good. Apr 28 23:07:35 Jaffa: btw, not about battery, but about graphics performance. Apr 28 23:07:46 lardman, if they are more motivated to work than to talk then we need to explain why some level of talk is *part* of their work Apr 28 23:07:46 ok, let me rephrase... how do you launch the su command from boot or within meego? Apr 28 23:07:47 Hydreee: add su before whatever command you plan to use to edit the file, e.g. su vi filename_here Apr 28 23:07:52 thiago_home: auke said Wayland for battery Apr 28 23:07:53 * thiago_home agrees to that last part Apr 28 23:08:26 w00t_: The vision and technology choices laid out by the architects then inform anyone (including Intel managers and bean counters) coming along and saying "we want to improve graphcs performance" Apr 28 23:08:41 agreed Apr 28 23:08:45 That can be a private discussion between $COMPANY_WILLING_TO_DO_WORK and the Architects. Apr 28 23:08:54 well, isn't this already there, though? Apr 28 23:09:02 via the FEAs in bugzilla Apr 28 23:09:04 not that I can see Apr 28 23:09:11 urgh Apr 28 23:09:21 that's the reason all that was put in place, as I understood it Apr 28 23:09:25 to provide the capability to roadmap Apr 28 23:09:39 But $COMPANY_WILLING_TO_DO_WORK can see the arguments made and be advised "well, we've looked at this and you're right - you could do A, B and C to improve gfx performance; but Wayland is probably better for MeeGo in the long term - see here for the justification and how it fits into the larger picture" Apr 28 23:10:07 Really the whole thing is very unclear, the website is bad especially the wiki design, but perhaps the info lurks in there somewhere unseen by most of us Apr 28 23:10:35 lardman: file bugs Apr 28 23:10:50 (or raise discussions on the ML) Apr 28 23:10:58 it's not going to change unless someone does Apr 28 23:11:09 I can't be the only one surely Apr 28 23:11:15 Jaffa: you really think this debate will change anything now. It's been a birth defect of meego that the whole architecture and paradigms haven't been discussed publically Apr 28 23:11:27 lardman: if everyone passes the buck, then it'll never get changed Apr 28 23:11:33 and that type of thinking is exactly how that happens :-) Apr 28 23:11:50 w00t_: I know that, I don't have time atm to do any discussing though Apr 28 23:12:00 well other than this evening :) Apr 28 23:12:12 lardman: to use the su command do I have to launch the terminal? I'm guessing it's the equivalment to the command prompt in windows? forgive me, i'm a linux newb. :P Apr 28 23:12:19 I have enough other commitments, so I guess it'll be waiting on someone else Apr 28 23:12:24 Jaffa: and quite obviously a good few of srchitectural elementary guidelines not even been discussed "internally" Apr 28 23:12:40 w00t_: I'm tired of making this argument. I've made it on the mailing lists, I made it in 2006. Apr 28 23:12:42 like "you MUST NOT poll" Apr 28 23:12:45 Hydreee: yes, but really I think you should do some reading up before you start randomly editing things if you don;t know what you're doing Apr 28 23:13:02 Jaffa: if you're tired, then perhaps you need to take a break Apr 28 23:13:06 I did, and it worked wonders for me Apr 28 23:13:18 or "all middleware is using same API, which is dbus" Apr 28 23:13:45 w00t_: I'll add it to my list to do in June Apr 28 23:13:46 lardman: well I know what i want to do and I'm following a guide that says I need to replace the entry “root=/dev/sdb2″ to say “root=/dev/sda2″. Apr 28 23:13:49 w00t_: http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2008/04/20/maemo_org_what_next Apr 28 23:14:33 w00t_: Indeed. But, like you, I *want* to see MeeGo succeed. I *want* to contribute more than applications. I'm *selfish* and want a good, hackable, usable, mainstream, Linux device in my pocket. Apr 28 23:15:38 Jaffa: calling openoffice.org a good corporate sponsored open source project is amusing considering it imploded this year precisely because it has never been one :-p Apr 28 23:16:05 right Apr 28 23:16:14 I'm not saying to give up Apr 28 23:16:20 w00t_: And it annoys me when the claimed USP of MeeGo is so blatantly untrue. MeeGo is open source; not open development. This is a battle I'm facing at work, I'd _like_ to be able to point to MeeGo and say 'this is how we should do it'; instead I find a closed source "our code is our IP and our IP is our life" company does open development (internally) better than an open project. Apr 28 23:16:23 I'm just saying that if frustration is getting overwhelming, it's not healthy Apr 28 23:16:47 w00t_: That article is 3 years old. Almost to the day. Apr 28 23:17:29 w00t_: Meh, I'm going to go to bed in a minute and I won't be worrying about MeeGo's failings except a) here, b) on the mailing lists, c) in person in SF Apr 28 23:17:40 Jaffa: and, while some of those points are still of course problematic, some of them have seen improvement Apr 28 23:18:21 meego (the project, not the vendor bastardisations) has no closed tracker, has no closed source (beyond hardware support blobs for e.g. the n900), and has an (admittedly somewhat dysfunctional, but at least present) architecture ML Apr 28 23:18:55 (and, tooling like FIASCO images.. well, mic2 and friends..) Apr 28 23:19:13 Present but empty about from announcements (even, it seems, without impact analysis - not wanting to pick on auke but the tone of the mail was "you need to look to see if your project is affected") Apr 28 23:19:36 s/about/apart/ Apr 28 23:19:36 Jaffa meant: Present but empty apart from announcements (even, it seems, without impact analysis - not wanting to pick on auke but the tone of the mail was "you need to look to see if your project is affected") Apr 28 23:20:18 * GeneralAntilles catches up on scrollback. Apr 28 23:20:59 i do think it's encouraging that @intel/@nokia have a strong presence on the MLs at all, especially considering the crapshoots that go on there at times Apr 28 23:21:11 could be improved, yes, but better than the past Apr 28 23:21:37 the biggest hurdle is always going to be: why should I write this mail when I can go talk to $x in person Apr 28 23:21:42 w00t_: "It's better than being shit" isn't a glowing endorsement :) Apr 28 23:21:53 hahah Apr 28 23:22:09 w00t_: Which then, as we discussed earlier, leads to miscommunication and distrust between the two companies. Apr 28 23:22:17 w00t_: And "things not getting done" Apr 28 23:22:27 * w00t_ notes he was #6 on sent mails in march, and is amazed Apr 28 23:22:33 I didn't think I was that spammy Apr 28 23:22:57 night all, /me has to work tomorrow Apr 28 23:31:06 o/ GeneralAntilles Apr 28 23:31:24 * Jaffa has to, erm, entertain Jaffa Jr. when Mrs. Jaffa is watching the wedding. Apr 28 23:31:39 And do the MWKN hacking GeneralAntilles and Stskeeps were talking about earlier Apr 28 23:31:59 the wedding doesn't start for another 7.5 hours Apr 28 23:32:09 * GeneralAntilles chuckles at royalty. Apr 28 23:32:22 Jaffa, the hacking can wait until next week, eh? Apr 28 23:32:58 GeneralAntilles: Yeah, but it's a 4 day weekend (royalty useful for something), so I'm more likely to have time Apr 28 23:33:11 Ah, I see. Apr 28 23:33:26 thiago_home: Some sleep would be useful, given I've been feeling ill all day Apr 28 23:33:52 yeah, sleep is good Apr 28 23:33:54 going too Apr 29 01:06:54 hello Apr 29 01:07:12 is there any release date for meego DE final on N900? Apr 29 01:07:38 I wanted to install the actual version, but everyone says even the betas are slow as hell... is that true? Apr 29 01:17:50 tiagoprn: I'll bet it won't be before the MeeGo 1.2 release. (5/19) Apr 29 01:18:05 * gabrbedd shoulda looked at the logs. :-p **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Apr 29 02:59:57 2011