**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 02 02:59:56 2011
Jun 02 03:00:03 <gabrbedd> npm: huh?
Jun 02 03:00:17 <npm> so every app sits there having to take up precious cycles burbling about the wireless or the battery charge or the orientation
Jun 02 03:00:55 <npm> X10 apps were just like tablet-UX apps. if you wanted window manager decorations, you built it into the app
Jun 02 03:01:12 <gabrbedd> npm: I still don't follow you.  apps are all full screen in meego ux.
Jun 02 03:01:13 <npm> so it's like going back to the 80's for me...
Jun 02 03:01:17 <gabrbedd> npm: ah, I see.
Jun 02 03:01:28 <npm> apps aren't full screen, is the problem
Jun 02 03:01:48 <gabrbedd> npm: Actually, I had this conversation with Rusty Lynch on the ML... and he convinced me of The Way.
Jun 02 03:01:55 <gabrbedd> npm: which apps are not full screen?
Jun 02 03:01:57 <npm> some apps have dialogs, and there's a variety of diaglog types that have been standardized
Jun 02 03:02:02 <npm> but tablet UX ignores it all
Jun 02 03:02:24 <akk> tablet ux can show non-fullscreen dialogs
Jun 02 03:02:24 <npm> well try taking a call in skype and you'll see
Jun 02 03:02:54 <gabrbedd> akk: actually, that *is* a problem with the tablet ux.
Jun 02 03:03:15 <akk> Oh, they're going to make it so that dialogs are fullscreened too?
Jun 02 03:03:41 <akk> That's a bummer for some apps, since you might need to see the main window while working with a dialog.
Jun 02 03:03:42 <npm> not only fullscreened (so the look like crap) but also no way of finding other popups/dialogs from an app
Jun 02 03:04:04 <akk> Why this passion for fullscreen everything?
Jun 02 03:04:13 <npm> it basically only works well for apps built w/ meego components.
Jun 02 03:04:14 <akk> It makes sense on a phone, not so much on an 11" display.
Jun 02 03:04:24 <gabrbedd> akk: well, there's a few problems, actually.  One of the biggest is that the meego ux makes the assumption that desktop files to windows is a 1:1 relationship.
Jun 02 03:04:28 <npm> but any standard X app (the whole point of me doing meego) is SOL
Jun 02 03:04:50 <SpeedEvil> X is coming up for deprecation.
Jun 02 03:04:59 <SpeedEvil> As I understand it.
Jun 02 03:05:03 <gabrbedd> akk: and npm is right, standard Xlib apps don't work right in mcompositor.
Jun 02 03:05:07 <akk> gabrbedd: So running an app that doesn't have a desktop file also confuses it somehow?
Jun 02 03:05:14 <akk> (I've done that and not noticed obvious problems)
Jun 02 03:05:17 <npm> X coming up for deprecation... let me laugh for a while
Jun 02 03:05:32 <SpeedEvil> wayland.
Jun 02 03:05:36 <akk> Even wayland will supposedly support xlib.
Jun 02 03:05:37 <SpeedEvil> Or am I confused.
Jun 02 03:05:40 <gabrbedd> akk: yes, that's correct.  If you switch away from the app you will not be able to switch back.
Jun 02 03:05:41 <npm> at that point why shouldn't i just build apps for Android?
Jun 02 03:05:43 <SpeedEvil> ah.
Jun 02 03:06:06 <w00t> npm: if X is all that is tying you to meego, then, there isn't any reason
Jun 02 03:06:17 <npm> the whole point was to be able to use all the existing apps out there
Jun 02 03:06:22 <w00t> i'd sincerely hope your interests were a little more broad than that :)
Jun 02 03:06:24 <npm> apps and libs and toolkits
Jun 02 03:06:31 <akk> If you already have apps that run on linux or in qt or gtk, they can port to meego easily. Just try porting those to android.
Jun 02 03:06:33 <w00t> apps and libs and toolkits are coming along for the ride
Jun 02 03:06:36 <SpeedEvil> Does weyland assume that it's running on the hw?
Jun 02 03:06:47 <w00t> gtk and Qt can both talk to wayland, neither of them require X
Jun 02 03:06:58 <w00t> if you're using motif or something else, well... you might have some problems
Jun 02 03:07:06 <akk> xlib can talk to wayland too, unless they've changed the plan since two months ago.
Jun 02 03:07:16 <npm> well when all the cool apps I run every day in Linux stop working because i'm on wayland, i start asking, why not anddroid?
Jun 02 03:07:17 <SpeedEvil> I mean - it has to hit the hardware?
Jun 02 03:07:28 * gabrbedd is using Xlib apps... and there are problems. :-(
Jun 02 03:07:48 <w00t> akk: it will, but I can't imagine performance being anything to write home about
Jun 02 03:07:52 <npm> i mean if I'm going to be rewriting apps... rewrite for the largest market?
Jun 02 03:07:58 <akk> No, performance will probably not be great.
Jun 02 03:08:07 <w00t> npm: what applications will you be rewriting?
Jun 02 03:08:25 <akk> But rewriting for android means translating every line of the program into another language, as well as translating the whole UI for a new toolkit.
Jun 02 03:08:38 <npm> SGI managed to get all manner of video and acceleration on hardware that's probably like a dinosaur... without wayland
Jun 02 03:08:46 <npm> decades ago
Jun 02 03:09:05 <gabrbedd> akk: FWIW, in my apps I have to spend most of the time on the UI.  The application logic is usually simple by comparison.
Jun 02 03:09:15 <w00t> you know, I don't think I'll bother, this is a pretty broken-record discussion
Jun 02 03:09:25 <npm> w00t: http://nielsmayer.com/trainspodder-prototype.jpg
Jun 02 03:09:34 <akk> gabrbedd: True, but it's still a pain to translate it all to new languages.
Jun 02 03:10:01 <akk> gabrbedd: I have several apps that I would LOVE to have working on android, but it's just too much hassle. But for meego, it's maybe an hour or two.
Jun 02 03:10:02 <npm> akk and unless i'm on a platform (Qt) that ports to wayland "easily", i'll be rewriting all those apps
Jun 02 03:10:13 <npm> at that point, why not rewrite in android?
Jun 02 03:10:15 <w00t> what apps?
Jun 02 03:10:18 <w00t> I see a web browser
Jun 02 03:10:26 <npm> it's a web app
Jun 02 03:10:33 <w00t> ...
Jun 02 03:10:35 <npm> hybrid
Jun 02 03:10:50 <w00t> where's the hybrid?
Jun 02 03:10:53 <akk> web apps will probably be a lot easier in meego than android too.
Jun 02 03:11:02 <w00t> I see two chrome windows, nothing else
Jun 02 03:11:04 <npm> QML implementation you aren't seeing
Jun 02 03:11:09 <w00t> so it's Qt
Jun 02 03:11:14 <w00t> so you won't be rewriting it
Jun 02 03:11:21 <w00t> (shocker)
Jun 02 03:11:34 <npm> it's not in qt yet.. bits and pieces are getting there
Jun 02 03:14:04 <gabrbedd> w00t: I'm curious... how is this a broken record?  I thought I was the only one having this problem.
Jun 02 03:14:34 <npm> my position on tablet-UX is http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2011-May/482963.html
Jun 02 03:14:41 <w00t> gabrbedd: because it's always the same people saying the same things over and over again, and frankly, I have better things to do with my time than to listen to it yet again
Jun 02 03:14:49 <w00t> (and reply with the same things, yet again)
Jun 02 03:14:56 <npm> the fact that architects don't understand that standard is better than better is of concern to me.
Jun 02 03:16:45 <npm> akk -- web apps are easier in android...
Jun 02 03:16:56 <w00t> your position on the tablet ux is to complain that Qt browsers can't access bugs.meego.com, which was fixed in a later version of Qt? :)
Jun 02 03:17:00 <w00t> can't say I understand that
Jun 02 03:17:16 <npm> ??
Jun 02 03:17:21 <w00t> try reading the thread you linked to
Jun 02 03:17:26 <akk> npm: You've actually written them? Android's webview drives me crazy -- you can't even autocomplete in text fields, because key events don't fire.
Jun 02 03:17:37 <npm> oops
Jun 02 03:17:39 <npm> wrong link
Jun 02 03:17:49 <akk> npm: even the trivial web apps I have had to be rewritten to make them work at all in android.
Jun 02 03:18:41 <npm> http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2011-May/483207.html
Jun 02 03:19:34 <gabrbedd> npm: OK, I remember that one... and Arjan's response.
Jun 02 03:19:39 <npm> i'm talking about using web protocols in native apps, not cross-browser issues
Jun 02 03:19:59 <npm> Arjan's response is troubling, but i didn't feel like getting into a flamewar
Jun 02 03:20:24 <npm> it's just that 1.3 is sounding like a release i will skip
Jun 02 03:20:26 <gabrbedd> npm: I can't say I was crazy about his response... but I'm glad that he spoke plainly about it. :-)
Jun 02 03:20:51 <npm> since all this new stuff is being thrown together and there's nothing being done to manage complexity
Jun 02 03:21:06 <npm> and existing bugs aren't getting fixed, so how is all this new stuff going to get fixed?
Jun 02 03:21:25 <gabrbedd> npm: Here's how it lands, though -- it's up to the device vendors.
Jun 02 03:21:29 <npm> imho one feature per release is all that can be handled w/ sanity
Jun 02 03:21:58 <npm> or you get a lot of wasted time w/ big plans that fall through ( e.g. 1.2 )
Jun 02 03:21:59 <gabrbedd> npm: If the device vendor wants to support Xlib apps... then they have to ensure that.  MeeGo is only going to support the MeeGo API.
Jun 02 03:22:24 <gabrbedd> npm: And to some extent, this deprecates the Platform API.
Jun 02 03:22:25 <w00t> or if some interested people want that, likewise
Jun 02 03:22:31 <w00t> it's not just left to vendors
Jun 02 03:22:33 <gabrbedd> w00t: right.
Jun 02 03:22:41 <npm> but the problem is that for example the tablet ux doesn't support "Xlib apps"
Jun 02 03:22:48 <npm> it only properly suports meego-ux apps
Jun 02 03:22:50 <w00t> npm: then make it support it
Jun 02 03:23:00 <w00t> (if you want it)
Jun 02 03:23:04 <gabrbedd> w00t: but some concepts are less likely to be merged than others. :-)
Jun 02 03:23:09 <npm> that's impossible w/ the notion that it's ok to break a standard protocol
Jun 02 03:23:33 <w00t> nothing is impossible
Jun 02 03:23:34 <gabrbedd> npm: w00t's right.  Either add the support to mcompositor...
Jun 02 03:23:43 <gabrbedd> npm: or switch WM's (like I did)
Jun 02 03:23:47 <npm> it's like microsoft breaking HTTP/HTML standards in their browsers... you can do it... but it's bad and causes pain
Jun 02 03:23:47 <w00t> try discussing how to make it possible while not compromising the design goals of the UX work
Jun 02 03:24:07 <w00t> and assuming you can reach an agreement, start working on it, along with whoever else is interested
Jun 02 03:25:42 <gabrbedd> npm: in some cases... it's simple to add support for the old protocols.  Some others are pretty deep.
Jun 02 03:26:16 <gabrbedd> npm: And several fixes/improvements /have/ been merged.
Jun 02 03:26:36 <w00t> fwiw I'd guess the primary sticking point is the planned wayland move
Jun 02 03:27:13 <berndhs> how much is that move a plan, and how much is it waiting and hoping ?
Jun 02 03:27:18 <w00t> that makes any investment in X-related functionality that isn't directly related to the supported MeeGo developer story a bit wasteful, etc
Jun 02 03:27:27 <npm> the planned wayland move, w/o addressing backards compatibility w/ the myriad toolkits in which peopel write apps for linux
Jun 02 03:27:31 <w00t> berndhs: it's ongoing, I'd say
Jun 02 03:27:58 <berndhs> i'm asking how definite the planning is, is it known who does what and when
Jun 02 03:28:05 <w00t> npm: as I already mentioned, the two major toolkits already support it
Jun 02 03:28:11 <berndhs> "ongoing" doesnt mean anything
Jun 02 03:28:13 <w00t> if your pet one doesn't, then you're going to have to convince someone to do it
Jun 02 03:28:32 <w00t> berndhs: tablet UX already runs under it
Jun 02 03:28:48 <berndhs> perhaps but not satisfactory
Jun 02 03:28:50 <npm> see i'd rather have the waiting and hoping happen in other distros, and take the best of breed, and use that
Jun 02 03:28:50 <w00t> so I'm not sure what else really needs doing there except polishing, which afaik krh is working on
Jun 02 03:29:09 <berndhs> doesnt support remote display I think, and I read that it is required
Jun 02 03:29:11 <w00t> npm: meego doesn't really have the luxury of waiting when it's already playing catch-up
Jun 02 03:29:20 <gabrbedd> npm: wayland is coming to Linux (not just MeeGo).
Jun 02 03:29:20 <w00t> berndhs: remote display in what sense?
Jun 02 03:29:30 <berndhs> in the sense that X does
Jun 02 03:29:31 <gabrbedd> npm: Upstream sees the train coming already.
Jun 02 03:29:36 <w00t> and what garbrbedd said, too
Jun 02 03:29:38 <berndhs> and has for 25 years
Jun 02 03:29:47 <gabrbedd> npm: and it's the proprietary apps that will be hit hardest.
Jun 02 03:30:01 <w00t> berndhs: I really can't see that being a supported use-case for mobile devices, but even assuming it was, the wayland people do have some plans for things like that
Jun 02 03:30:17 <berndhs> you cant see it, but I think other people can :)
Jun 02 03:30:27 <SpeedEvil> Personally - I really want to be able to use larger screens.
Jun 02 03:30:31 <w00t> if other people can, then it will get worked on
Jun 02 03:30:33 <npm> proprietary, and the ones that have been hacked on for decades in some grotty toolkit that won't get ported
Jun 02 03:30:36 <w00t> if they can't, then it won't
Jun 02 03:30:40 <berndhs> it surely should be a required use case
Jun 02 03:30:40 <w00t> it's pretty much that simple
Jun 02 03:31:11 <berndhs> it can't ?
Jun 02 03:31:19 <berndhs> it has been possible for 25 years
Jun 02 03:31:19 <gabrbedd> npm: yes, hopefully FLTK will die then. :-p
Jun 02 03:31:24 <berndhs> its not hard
Jun 02 03:31:27 <w00t> berndhs: I suspect you didn't parse those two lines together
Jun 02 03:31:49 <w00t> berndhs: if other people find it to be a supported use case (i.e. important), it'll get worked on, otherwise it won't
Jun 02 03:31:52 <w00t> (to repeat myself)
Jun 02 03:32:05 <berndhs> use case is such a weasel word :)
Jun 02 03:32:10 <npm> gabrbedd: are you volunteering to rewrite fons' apps?
Jun 02 03:32:12 <npm> :-)
Jun 02 03:32:51 <gabrbedd> npm: fons uses his own abstraction library.  Just need to redefine the primatives.
Jun 02 03:32:58 <gabrbedd> npm: So.... sure. :-)
Jun 02 03:33:00 <berndhs> but i was asking about how firm the plans are, aand i guess we dont know between the 4 of us
Jun 02 03:33:12 <w00t> berndhs: plans for what, specifically?
Jun 02 03:33:26 <berndhs> wayland, the only thing i have been talking about
Jun 02 03:33:43 <w00t> yes, now what about wayland?
Jun 02 03:33:47 <gabrbedd> berndhs: the plan is wayland in MeeGo 1.4.
Jun 02 03:34:00 <berndhs> so 11 months from now
Jun 02 03:34:02 <npm> i thought 1.3?
Jun 02 03:34:19 <gabrbedd> npm: wayland will be "available to play with" in 1.3.
Jun 02 03:34:21 <w00t> npm: it'll probably be usable for 1.3, but not product-ready
Jun 02 03:34:43 <berndhs> but my comment on the 1.4 then is that it depends on people outside of MeeGo, most likely
Jun 02 03:34:58 <npm> actually, if there's a "dual track" that would be great... something stable for peopel to use... and ability to switch to wayland "head" for experiemnts
Jun 02 03:35:23 <gabrbedd> berndhs: you mean upstream wayland devs?
Jun 02 03:35:29 <berndhs> right
Jun 02 03:35:51 <w00t> berndhs: krh (one of those upstream wayland devs) is working on tablet ux on top of wayland, so I'd say it's a pretty safe bet
Jun 02 03:35:55 <gabrbedd> berndhs: yes.  and I'm sure several in MeeGo and Ubuntu are (or will be) participating in that.
Jun 02 03:36:21 <w00t> he had his presentation running on it actually
Jun 02 03:36:22 <w00t> was nice :)
Jun 02 03:36:36 <berndhs> oh im sure it looks nice
Jun 02 03:36:39 <gabrbedd> berndhs: Arjan has also said that they won't adopt new technologies until they are already fairly mature.
Jun 02 03:36:59 <w00t> not in terms of looks
Jun 02 03:37:05 <w00t> all that you saw for the most part were his slides
Jun 02 03:37:11 <gabrbedd> berndhs: So if wayland is a nightmare this fall... then it won't be happening.
Jun 02 03:37:16 <w00t> I mean nice in thse sense that it's actually working and reasonably operational already
Jun 02 03:37:39 <berndhs> also, to diverge a tad, wayland doesnt give meego what Arjan was asking for
Jun 02 03:37:46 <berndhs> no big leap forward
Jun 02 03:37:48 <npm> the bottom line is does anybody care about all this geek stuff? does apple sell its gear by talking about it's graphics underpinnings???
Jun 02 03:37:53 <andyross> It does seem like wayland is for real though.  That's a lot farther than I'd have bet it would be a few months back.
Jun 02 03:37:56 <berndhs> compared to others at least
Jun 02 03:38:02 <GAN900> npm, their engineers do.
Jun 02 03:38:09 <w00t> npm: apple's developers don't talk to other developers in the public, meego's do
Jun 02 03:38:23 <GAN900> npm, yes, it's all irrelevant without any vendors.
Jun 02 03:38:33 <w00t> andyross: which is good news
Jun 02 03:38:39 <w00t> berndhs: it's an enabler
Jun 02 03:38:40 <GAN900> But we all have our strengths.
Jun 02 03:38:41 <npm> the developers don't care either. they just want stuff that works a story that's consistent, and not having to port to a new platform everytime some biznessman throws some money aroudn
Jun 02 03:38:45 <w00t> it isn't the whole solution by itself
Jun 02 03:39:01 <berndhs> rright, its an enabler, but others have the same enabler
Jun 02 03:39:14 <gabrbedd> berndhs: actually... wayland + Qt's scenegraph will give what Arjan was talking about... a big leap forward.
Jun 02 03:39:17 <w00t> yes, so it's another step towards a level playing field :)
Jun 02 03:39:31 <andyross> Clearly not.  And there's a ton of "dumping ground policy" embedded in the existing window and app management code that will need porting to wayland.  But the big hurdles seem to be behind it now
Jun 02 03:39:40 <berndhs> Arajan doesnt want a level playing field, he wants to be fundamentally better
Jun 02 03:39:48 <berndhs> i agree wwith him
Jun 02 03:39:58 <w00t> GAN900: seen the computex news, btw? seems there is some hardware about
Jun 02 03:40:11 <Guest7308> hello
Jun 02 03:40:40 <w00t> berndhs: myself too, but I'd rather have that taken with a pinch of caution so we don't massively break everything.. scenegraph and wayland work now, but i'd much rather see them next year when the kinks are worked out than rush them in straight away for instance :)
Jun 02 03:41:09 <berndhs> oh im not saying i want wayland sooner
Jun 02 03:41:33 <andyross> Or conversely, break everything now before there are apps in the wild with embedded Xlib hackery
Jun 02 03:41:35 <Guest7308> hey can v chat
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jun 02 03:41:39 2011

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 02 03:42:14 2011
Jun 02 03:42:16 <npm> giving four features per year....
Jun 02 03:42:38 <GAN900> w00t, netbooks are on the march to irrelevancy.
Jun 02 03:42:50 <andyross> npm, I think something like that was the original intent.  but the 1.2 cycle got a bit scrambled, obvoiusly
Jun 02 03:43:05 <w00t> GAN900: good thing it wasn't just a netbook, then
Jun 02 03:43:05 <npm> i'm concerned about all sorts of new features interacting badly in each new release (factorial or exponential complexity on each new feature)
Jun 02 03:43:13 <w00t> GAN900: but any hardware is good hardware, anyhow
Jun 02 03:43:29 * gabrbedd seems to remember arjan being disappointed about "only 3 new things/improvements for 1.2"
Jun 02 03:43:51 <berndhs> npm: there are too many things going on at once to restrict to 1 "feature" per release
Jun 02 03:44:05 <andyross> Only three?  Whole new app stack counts as what, 1? :)
Jun 02 03:44:16 <npm> and along with "architecture" MeeGo also needs some complexity-management "science"... like the guys that plan space launches and major construction projects
Jun 02 03:44:33 <gabrbedd> andyross: I'm just the messenger. :-p
Jun 02 03:44:35 <GAN900> w00t, missed the 2nd announcement, clearly.
Jun 02 03:45:00 <w00t> GAN900: i'm pretty sure some tablet or other from acer got announced, to launch later this year
Jun 02 03:45:05 <GAN900> Ah
Jun 02 03:45:09 <GAN900> I want handsets
Jun 02 03:45:18 <w00t> custom UI, looked interesting
Jun 02 03:45:25 <GAN900> The three things in MeeGo I care about seem to be the most neglected.
Jun 02 03:45:44 <w00t> me too, but well, I'll bide my time
Jun 02 03:45:46 <gabrbedd> w00t: the one with the windows going around like a deck of cards?  I liked that idea. :-)
Jun 02 03:45:53 <w00t> gabrbedd: yeah
Jun 02 03:46:05 <andyross> btrfs landed in 1.2, so that's a fairly major one (even if there's no framework integration to use the nifty features yet).  So two.  The only serious feature that missed that I can think of off hand is the security model, which totally whiffed, sadly.
Jun 02 03:46:37 * w00t is glad the security framework got suffocated at birth
Jun 02 03:46:39 <w00t> yuck
Jun 02 03:46:42 <gabrbedd> andyross: I seem to recall BTRFS all the way back in 1.0.
Jun 02 03:47:25 <berndhs> people where whining about btrfs before 1.0
Jun 02 03:48:12 <andyross> btrfs has been building in the kernel forever, yeah.  But the images are actually installing into it now.  And my heart is with w00t about the security model, but my head points out that it's still a huge hole for a consumer device.  All apps run in a single user account right now, that's really not shipable to an app market as-is.
Jun 02 03:48:17 <GAN900> Seats in the new terminal at SJC have GFI plugs and USB ports in all of the armrests.
Jun 02 03:49:02 <SpeedEvil> GFI?/
Jun 02 03:49:21 <gabrbedd> Ground Fault Indicator (i.e. a power outlet)
Jun 02 03:49:26 <andyross> I guess my view for inside the bubble (well, on the periphery anyway) is that 1.2 was a pretty major step forward.  MeeGo went from being a mostly-demoable kludge to something the decidedly doesn't suck.  My toddler was playing flash games last weekend on an ExoPC
Jun 02 03:49:44 <mikeleib> w00t: ping
Jun 02 03:49:52 <w00t> andyross: well, having an actual UI (or at least the basis of one) is a good thing :)
Jun 02 03:49:55 <w00t> mikeleib: pong
Jun 02 03:50:03 <gabrbedd> s/Indicator/Interrupter/
Jun 02 03:50:04 <infobot> gabrbedd meant: Ground Fault Interrupter (i.e. a power outlet)
Jun 02 03:50:10 <mikeleib> re: bug 18268
Jun 02 03:50:13 <MeeGoBot> Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18268 maj, High, ---, michael.leibowitz, ASSI, meego-qml-launcher takes a lot of memory
Jun 02 03:50:16 * w00t guesses this will be about memory use of meego-qml-launcher :-)
Jun 02 03:50:19 <w00t> haha, what a guess
Jun 02 03:50:22 <mikeleib> indeed
Jun 02 03:50:37 <mikeleib> I think your initial patch with some minor hackery will likely work
Jun 02 03:50:39 <npm> btrfs: yeah it was one of the advertised features that had meego performing better than other distros at the time
Jun 02 03:50:46 <berndhs> buy more memory. oh wait,...
Jun 02 03:50:54 <w00t> mikeleib: do you still see any flash when reverting to GL?
Jun 02 03:51:09 <w00t> mikeleib: if so, I can point you in a likely direction to debug.. I just don't have the time to do it myself
Jun 02 03:51:34 <mikeleib> There is a visible artifact.. but there's also a visible artifact anyway
Jun 02 03:51:38 <mikeleib> I can't tell if it's a regression or not
Jun 02 03:51:56 <mikeleib> all my systems seem to wedge for other reasons before I get a chance to play with them much
Jun 02 03:52:32 <mikeleib> w00t: feel free to send me areas to look at
Jun 02 03:52:42 <w00t> btw, use QMetaObject::invokeMethod, not a singleShot timer, it's rather pedantic since a 0-ms timer will be equivilent to an invokeMethod anyway, but it'll save you a method call
Jun 02 03:52:55 <mikeleib> ohyeah
Jun 02 03:53:06 <mikeleib> it is the same under the hood. that's true
Jun 02 03:53:31 <w00t> and, that isn't a good sign...
Jun 02 03:53:36 <w00t> were they blowing up before these patches? :)
Jun 02 03:53:46 <mikeleib> sometimes ;)
Jun 02 03:54:01 <mikeleib> It may be a bug on a particular graphics stack
Jun 02 03:55:40 <mikeleib> for unrelated reasons, we aren't painting the background.  When we stopped doing that, the most onerous flicker disappeared
Jun 02 03:56:31 <w00t> that's good news
Jun 02 03:56:42 <w00t> let me find a video of the flicker I saw
Jun 02 03:56:44 <w00t> for you to compare
Jun 02 03:56:49 <mikeleib> k
Jun 02 03:57:03 <w00t> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy10RPxLEn4
Jun 02 03:57:19 <w00t> the same was visible on the lenovo s10t, more or less (or slightly shorter) duration
Jun 02 03:57:23 <w00t> I guess you're not seeing it
Jun 02 03:57:25 <w00t> = good news
Jun 02 03:59:07 <mikeleib> it's much shorter than that
Jun 02 03:59:27 <mikeleib> yes.  I observed that same flash on an s10.. when it wasn't wedging all the time
Jun 02 03:59:39 <mikeleib> I've had a bad hardware day :(
Jun 02 03:59:46 <w00t> ah, if you see one, there is still a problem
Jun 02 03:59:50 <w00t> but I guess, perhaps not a blocker :)
Jun 02 04:00:25 <mikeleib> oh.. I mean.  I observed the same flash on an s10 before we stopped painting the background
Jun 02 04:00:30 <mikeleib> now, it is much smaller
Jun 02 04:00:30 <w00t> oh!
Jun 02 04:00:33 <w00t> cool :)
Jun 02 04:00:45 <w00t> (ouch, painting the background would have been expensive too)
Jun 02 04:02:53 <mikeleib> feel free to try the patches out
Jun 02 04:03:35 <akk> How do you use a package from osc from a meego device? I can't find anything about that on the wiki.
Jun 02 04:03:54 <mikeleib> akk: not sure exactly what you mean
Jun 02 04:04:01 <w00t> mikeleib: no promises, I will try to do so this weekend.. if you have them somewhere in a repo already, that would save me some time
Jun 02 04:04:22 <w00t> I'll also have to badger someone else to do the n900 testing as mine gave up the ghost while I was in san francisco
Jun 02 04:04:40 <special> w00t: speaking of, did I steal your microsd card?
Jun 02 04:04:43 <akk> mikeleib: I made this obs/osc (I'm confused about the diff between them) repository, and other people have other stuff hosted there, and it's all being built by these build servers.
Jun 02 04:04:44 <w00t> ...
Jun 02 04:04:47 <w00t> special: see other window
Jun 02 04:04:48 <GAN900> w00t, get another one?
Jun 02 04:04:53 <akk> mikeleib: So with this built software, how do you install and run it on a device?
Jun 02 04:05:08 <mikeleib> w00t:  home:mikeleib:branches:devel:meego-ux
Jun 02 04:05:17 <w00t> mikeleib: excellent, thanks
Jun 02 04:05:45 <mikeleib> akk: osc getbinaries is one way
Jun 02 04:05:57 <mikeleib> It will give you rpms you can install
Jun 02 04:05:57 <special> haha
Jun 02 04:06:21 <akk> mikeleib: so install osc with zypper, then use osc getbinaries, to get an rpm, then rpm -i to install it?
Jun 02 04:06:25 <berndhs> akk: you can add the repositories to the zypper database on the device
Jun 02 04:06:33 <mikeleib> that's also another way
Jun 02 04:06:35 <berndhs> akk: then install with zypper
Jun 02 04:06:38 <w00t> GAN900: i .. might, if it's still even possible
Jun 02 04:06:45 <w00t> iirc my n900 is actually still under warranty
Jun 02 04:06:46 <mikeleib> it depends on if the repos are published
Jun 02 04:06:58 <w00t> i should really check that quickly, before it goes out of warrranty :)
Jun 02 04:07:16 <akk> berndhs: What do the repository names look like? What's a sample of them? I take it this isn't documented anywhere yet?
Jun 02 04:07:43 <mikeleib> akk: like this
Jun 02 04:07:45 <mikeleib> http://download.meego.com/live/home:/mikeleib:/branches:/devel:/meego-ux/MeeGo_1.2/
Jun 02 04:07:49 <berndhs> they are called something.repo
Jun 02 04:08:02 <w00t> (for the record, yes, special stole my microsd :'()
Jun 02 04:08:10 <mikeleib> the repo files may not actually work in zypper
Jun 02 04:08:32 <mikeleib> bug 11904
Jun 02 04:08:35 <MeeGoBot> Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11904 nor, Undecided, ---, maemo, NEW, .repo files that build server creates cause error in zypper
Jun 02 04:09:34 <berndhs> my repo file works for me :)
Jun 02 04:09:53 <berndhs> but they dont automatically refresh
Jun 02 04:10:23 <mikeleib> could be resolved/worksforme
Jun 02 04:10:46 * mikeleib dunno why it's assigned to xfade
Jun 02 04:11:04 <akk> berndhs: I'm confused, how would I get that http://download.meego.com/live/home:/mikeleib:/branches:/devel:/meego-ux/MeeGo_1.2/ from a build.pub.meego.com username? (or packagename or whatever)
Jun 02 04:12:03 <akk> sorry, that was for mikeleib
Jun 02 04:12:09 <berndhs> you get the home:username from their name, and the rest from the kind of branch you want ot follow
Jun 02 04:12:13 <mikeleib> teh web interface barfed it out for me
Jun 02 04:12:20 <mikeleib> but osc meta knows I think
Jun 02 04:12:59 <andyross> I find every time I use osc I end up screaming at it and just use the web UI.  It's not awful.  Then again, I don't do much serious packaging.
Jun 02 04:13:25 <mikeleib> you can't win
Jun 02 04:13:25 <berndhs> i make new empty packages with the web interface, and the rest from osc
Jun 02 04:13:39 <mikeleib> making packages with osc is easier
Jun 02 04:13:39 <akk> mikeleib: I tried substituting my name for yours and got a 404 (even if I pulled off the branch-specific parts). Do I need to do something special to create a repo after I get programs building?
Jun 02 04:14:07 <mikeleib> It may be that publishing is not enabled
Jun 02 04:14:23 <mikeleib> akk: what project are you trying to use?
Jun 02 04:14:38 <akk> mikeleib: This is me: https://build.pub.meego.com/project/show?project=home%3Aakkana#
Jun 02 04:14:58 <berndhs> http://repo.pub.meego.com/home:/akkana/MeeGo_1.2_Apps_MeeGo_1.2_standard/
Jun 02 04:15:08 <berndhs> that is where your repo file is
Jun 02 04:15:09 <mikeleib> http://repo.pub.meego.com/home:/akkana/MeeGo_1.2_Apps_MeeGo_1.2_standard/
Jun 02 04:15:20 <berndhs> :)
Jun 02 04:15:25 <mikeleib> that's what I get for not looking before I paste
Jun 02 04:15:29 <akk> Cool, thanks. Where would I have gotten that?
Jun 02 04:15:36 <mikeleib> I got it from webui
Jun 02 04:15:42 <akk> how?
Jun 02 04:15:54 <berndhs> list all projects
Jun 02 04:15:58 <mikeleib> /https://build.pub.meego.com/project/repository_state?project=home%3Aakkana&repository=MeeGo_1.2_Apps_MeeGo_1.2_standard
Jun 02 04:16:00 <akk> (I'm trying to document this, so people coming after me will be able to figure it out)
Jun 02 04:16:03 * andyross notices that build.pub.meego.com has prettier web indexes than build.meego.com
Jun 02 04:16:11 <mikeleib> I noticed that too
Jun 02 04:16:22 <akk> I don't see a "list all projects"
Jun 02 04:16:28 <andyross> lighttpd vs. apache I guess
Jun 02 04:16:32 * mikeleib looks for way to do this with osc
Jun 02 04:17:41 <berndhs> front page, "List of All Projects"
Jun 02 04:17:48 <gabrbedd> akk: Here's how *I* discovered the repositories...
Jun 02 04:17:52 <gabrbedd> akk: https://build.pub.meego.com/package/binaries?package=PyTopo&project=home%3Aakkana&repository=MeeGo_1.2_Apps_MeeGo_1.2_standard
Jun 02 04:18:02 <mikeleib> osc repourls
Jun 02 04:18:18 <gabrbedd> akk: There's a link at the top that says "go to download repository"
Jun 02 04:18:47 <mikeleib> cli FTW
Jun 02 04:18:57 <akk> gabrbedd: How did you even get to that page? e.g. starting from https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=PyTopo&project=home%3Aakkana
Jun 02 04:19:08 <mikeleib> akk: screw it.. just use osc
Jun 02 04:19:19 <andyross> mikeleib: If you were serious about it you'd have posted a script using curl and the REST API instead of osc.
Jun 02 04:19:33 <akk> mikeleib: What's the osc command?
Jun 02 04:19:42 <mikeleib> osc repourls
Jun 02 04:19:51 <gabrbedd> akk: from here... https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=PyTopo&project=home%3Aakkana
Jun 02 04:20:02 <mikeleib> andyross: curl is fer wimps.. use nc
Jun 02 04:20:11 <andyross> touche
Jun 02 04:20:36 <gabrbedd> akk: It makes more sense to click on the "MeeGo_1.2_Apps_MeeGo..." link when you have more than one target distribution listed.
Jun 02 04:20:56 <akk> argh, osc is prompting me for keyring again. I thought I got it to stop doing that.
Jun 02 04:21:31 <akk> gabrbedd: Aha! yes, that takes me to the page you gave, thanks.
Jun 02 04:23:33 <akk> and osc repourls works (modulo always prompting me for the stupid keyring), thanks mikeleib
Jun 02 04:23:50 <DawnFoster> mikeleib: will you be around the office tomorrow?
Jun 02 04:23:57 <mikeleib> jup
Jun 02 04:24:13 <DawnFoster> mikeleib: henri bergius is visiting and wants to chat location stuff
Jun 02 04:24:17 <akk> I wish osc would pay attention to keyring=0 in .oscrc like it's supposed to.
Jun 02 04:24:29 <DawnFoster> mikeleib: i'll swing by with him tomorrow
Jun 02 04:25:07 <mikeleib> okee
Jun 02 04:25:33 <Stskeeps> which reminds me that i should see mikeleib's talk video :P
Jun 02 04:26:31 <mikeleib> there's a video?
Jun 02 04:26:37 <Stskeeps> well i hope there will be
Jun 02 04:26:39 <mikeleib> how embarrassing
Jun 02 04:29:24 <akk> oh, good, osc is in python. Maybe I can fix the broken keyring stuff myself.
Jun 02 04:30:15 <Stskeeps> hmm. senior engineer job about meego in sunnyvale, CA about meego
Jun 02 04:30:27 <Stskeeps> at nokia
Jun 02 04:30:32 <Stskeeps> that's kind of tempting to apply for
Jun 02 04:30:43 <GAN900> Dooo iiittt
Jun 02 04:30:44 <akk> I thought nokia was laying off meego devs here?
Jun 02 04:31:15 <Stskeeps> we're still around in meego, despite all the media claming we're not :)
Jun 02 04:31:38 <mikeleib> Intel is always looking for top talent.  jobs.intel.com ;)
Jun 02 04:32:05 <Stskeeps> mikeleib: yeah.. my general statement is that i still feel i have a mission to fullfill with MeeGo ARM ;)
Jun 02 04:32:25 <Stskeeps> but yeah, worst case scenario ;)
Jun 02 04:32:44 <mikeleib> x86 is waaaay more better than ARM
Jun 02 04:32:58 <GAN900> For phones?
Jun 02 04:33:30 <GAN900> I think they call that brain damage.
Jun 02 04:33:31 <mikeleib> ohyeah.. they're sooper
Jun 02 04:35:34 * dm8tbr would immediately advocate intel for embedded if he didn't have this gut feeling that they'll just be another soc vendor and pull things like an SGX core with binary only drivers that then cause lots of problems
Jun 02 04:35:58 <berndhs> good night folks
Jun 02 04:36:02 <Stskeeps> dm8tbr: 'be'? 'am', though the xorg side is open for once
Jun 02 04:36:09 <Stskeeps> see pvr-mrst-bin
Jun 02 04:36:58 <dm8tbr> Stskeeps: they are slowly getting into the SoC business, so far STB but not handheld devices
Jun 02 04:37:40 <dm8tbr> and IIRC the STB SoC does have an SGX core
Jun 02 04:38:27 <Robot101> Stskeeps: with KMS drivers in the kernel, the xorg driver can become hardware independent anyway - so an open X driver is really less exciting nowadays :P
Jun 02 04:38:55 <Stskeeps> Robot101: can't wait to get rid of xorg.. wayland's so much easier to deal with :P
Jun 02 04:39:49 <w00t> wayland, cheeeya!
Jun 02 04:40:14 <Robot101> wootland
Jun 02 04:40:18 <w00t> (robot101, either you're up insanely late/early like I am, or you're wandering the globe again :P)
Jun 02 04:40:25 * Robot101 is in Montreal
Jun 02 04:40:29 <w00t> ah, that explains that
Jun 02 04:40:47 <w00t> how's things over there?
Jun 02 04:40:50 <Robot101> just got back from (semi-working) dinner after all-day long meetings
Jun 02 04:40:56 <DawnFoster> hey w00t! recovered from meegoconf yet?
Jun 02 04:41:04 <Robot101> good, the city is starting to grow on me :)
Jun 02 04:41:07 <w00t> DawnFoster: still maaaaaadly sunburned
Jun 02 04:41:11 <w00t> I'm peeling everywhere
Jun 02 04:41:27 <Robot101> see what happens when you leave the safety of the conference hotel? :P
Jun 02 04:41:29 <Stskeeps> didn't we tell you to use suncream? :P
Jun 02 04:41:30 <GAN900> Haha, silly West coast UV.
Jun 02 04:41:30 <w00t> turns out going outside my basement wasn't a good idea
Jun 02 04:41:36 <DawnFoster> w00t: ooooh, ouch
Jun 02 04:41:47 <DawnFoster> w00t: admit it, it was worth it
Jun 02 04:41:48 <GAN900> Even the dumb Floridian managed to get burnt.
Jun 02 04:41:49 <w00t> Stskeeps: by the time I was able to buy some, it was too late
Jun 02 04:41:55 * Robot101 has been to way too many cities only to see the inside of the airport, convention centre and my hotel :/
Jun 02 04:42:16 <mikeleib> there was an outdoors there?
Jun 02 04:42:17 <w00t> Robot101: yeah, i'm glad i took the few extra days to tour tbh
Jun 02 04:42:23 <w00t> DawnFoster: it was :)
Jun 02 04:42:31 <Robot101> w00t: yeah if I'd not been to SF a few times before I totally would've too :D
Jun 02 04:42:37 <DawnFoster> w00t: and thanks again for doing the keynote demo
Jun 02 04:42:40 <w00t> i still say america is weird
Jun 02 04:42:45 <w00t> (that was my first visit)
Jun 02 04:42:49 <Robot101> w00t: yeah it's not quite right is it? :P
Jun 02 04:42:50 <DawnFoster> people are still saying that was one of the highlights
Jun 02 04:43:32 <w00t> DawnFoster: np! in retrospect, i loved every minute, especially forcing special to write QML right up until the last minute
Jun 02 04:43:36 <w00t> >:)
Jun 02 04:43:45 <DawnFoster> :)
Jun 02 04:43:54 <w00t> I don't think he'll ever forgive me, but hey
Jun 02 04:44:05 <DawnFoster> so how is america weird (not disagreeing with you, btw)?
Jun 02 04:44:10 * mikeleib couldn't do much conferencing.. had to run back to office to hack more meego
Jun 02 04:44:26 <akk> Hmm, that .repo URL I got from osc repourls is wrong -- it goes to download.opensuse.org and gives me a 404
Jun 02 04:44:33 <w00t> DawnFoster: it's ... hard to sum up, really, just that people's attitudes and ways of life seem quite different
Jun 02 04:44:35 <Robot101> mikeleib: I thought I saw you sneaking around :)
Jun 02 04:44:42 <akk> the one from the web UI goes to a real file
Jun 02 04:44:59 <special> w00t: I can just keep your microsd card, among other things
Jun 02 04:45:10 <gabrbedd> w00t: where is $HOME for you?
Jun 02 04:45:33 <Robot101> coffee is too big and not as good, soda tastes like doritos, sockets and lightswitches all look like they're from the 50s, toilets are too low, streets are too wide, sidewalks are too high, rooms have too many lamps instead of lights on the ceiling...
Jun 02 04:45:35 <mikeleib> akk: bug in OBS
Jun 02 04:45:59 <w00t> gabrbedd: i'm what i like to refer to as "geographically confused", I grew up in australia, moved to the UK, and I'm getting ready for another move to norway in a month or two (where my other half is from)
Jun 02 04:46:13 <w00t> Robot101: that's a pretty good summary tbh
Jun 02 04:46:26 <w00t> the toilet at the hotel I was in was amazing
Jun 02 04:46:29 <special> Robot101: coffee is perfect, we invented soda, streets need to be wide to fit our cars.. :p
Jun 02 04:46:31 <w00t> I swear it was built for dwarves
Jun 02 04:46:33 <mikeleib> Robot101: good coffee can be found
Jun 02 04:46:47 <Robot101> mikeleib: I know, especially in SF, Portland, etc :)
Jun 02 04:47:05 <Robot101> mikeleib: but on average, if you're in a hotel and take breakfast, the coffee is an affront to humanity
Jun 02 04:47:08 <w00t> I am now a starbucks addict :'(
Jun 02 04:47:21 <special> don't judge american coffee by the hyatt's coffee. That was terrible.
Jun 02 04:47:24 <gabrbedd> Robot101: FULL ACK on hotel coffee
Jun 02 04:47:32 <mikeleib> starbucks is commonly available medium quality coffee
Jun 02 04:47:51 <Robot101> special: no it's across the whole country, the swill that's sloshed out of those flasks every morning, is terrible
Jun 02 04:48:16 <Robot101> lukewarm flavourless pap which makes me want to go back to bed, not moving me to a new plane of consciousness like I expect from a decent coffee :D
Jun 02 04:48:29 <special> It'd be better if it was flavorless.
Jun 02 04:48:45 <w00t> hahaha
Jun 02 04:48:50 <w00t> yeahhhh.. the hyatt coffee was..
Jun 02 04:48:57 <w00t> well, I gave up on it after sunday
Jun 02 04:48:59 <special> (and note the distinctly omitted 'u' in 'flavor')
Jun 02 04:49:11 * w00t slaps a u into special and removes his 'z's with the same slap
Jun 02 04:49:13 <w00t> speak properly
Jun 02 04:49:16 <Robot101> in the ferry building across from the hyatt, there's a bluebottle coffee
Jun 02 04:49:20 <w00t> i will force you to when you're over here
Jun 02 04:49:21 <Robot101> <3
Jun 02 04:49:33 <gabrbedd> good night everyone!
Jun 02 04:49:37 <w00t> gabrbedd: night!
Jun 02 04:49:39 <gabrbedd> iekku: good morning!
Jun 02 04:49:42 * gabrbedd sleeps
Jun 02 04:50:28 * w00t is unsure whether he should try nap or just stat work
Jun 02 04:50:30 <w00t> *start
Jun 02 04:50:38 <Robot101> and the differences between UK and US English are pretty funny when you run into them :)
Jun 02 04:50:40 <w00t> I honestly don't think productive sleep would come at this time of day
Jun 02 04:50:54 <w00t> Robot101: entree was one that confused the hell out of me for a good 30 seconds or so
Jun 02 04:51:01 * Stskeeps hearts seeing someone on meego-qa asking about 'document for newcomers'
Jun 02 04:51:04 <Stskeeps> someone has learnt!
Jun 02 04:51:20 <Stskeeps> especially with 'how about we create it'
Jun 02 04:52:06 * pixelgeek thinks sleep is a good move too - night all
Jun 02 04:53:15 <Robot101> more meetings tomorrow... 'night all
Jun 02 04:53:34 <w00t> Robot101: nite
Jun 02 04:53:42 * GAN900 redeye flights.
Jun 02 04:53:50 <w00t> GAN900: where?
Jun 02 04:54:02 <GAN900> SJC to ATL to TPA
Jun 02 04:54:08 <w00t> eek
Jun 02 04:54:34 <GAN900> Getting in about 8 hours from now.
Jun 02 04:54:37 <w00t> that's quite a trip
Jun 02 04:54:41 <GAN900> Yeah
Jun 02 04:54:52 <GAN900> Was going to fly out Sunday
Jun 02 04:54:59 <GAN900> But long-lived stomach bug
Jun 02 04:55:32 <w00t> special: ^^
Jun 02 04:55:37 <w00t> seems you're not the onlyo ne to get sick :P
Jun 02 04:55:58 <GAN900> Lots of international disease mingling.
Jun 02 04:56:17 <special> I'm still blaming kamilla.
Jun 02 04:56:45 <w00t> lol
Jun 02 04:56:53 <w00t> she's still not over her cold/flu/???
Jun 02 04:57:01 <w00t> amazingly, i still haven't caught it
Jun 02 05:02:17 <Myrtti> SCORE \o/ Weird Stuff Warehouse - found one more USB Cuevat
Jun 02 05:02:21 <Myrtti> Cuecat, even
Jun 02 05:02:47 <SpeedEvil> I've - somewhere - got 4 ps//2
Jun 02 05:04:33 <Myrtti> they're great :-) Finnish paper bills (for electricity, water, mail order, anything) have a barcode that you can scan into Internet banking sites, with all the info of the bill
Jun 02 05:04:47 <mikeleib> cuecats?
Jun 02 05:04:53 <Myrtti> gonna mod one and give it to my sister, she is still into paper bills
Jun 02 05:05:20 <Myrtti> I use mine to scan in ISBN codes of my books and put them into Alexandria or LibraryThing
Jun 02 05:05:29 <mikeleib> like from the .com days?
Jun 02 05:05:37 <Myrtti> mikeleib: yup, the same
Jun 02 05:05:53 <mikeleib> with ps/2 passthru?
Jun 02 05:06:33 * mikeleib fails to see greatness
Jun 02 05:07:21 <Myrtti> mikeleib: they're cheaper than any other barcode reader that can be hooked into USB...
Jun 02 05:07:59 <mikeleib> webcam?
Jun 02 05:08:29 <Myrtti> I've never managed to get that working
Jun 02 05:09:37 * mikeleib sees emacs code to make cuecat werk from within emacs
Jun 02 05:10:45 * TSCHAKeee chuckles
Jun 02 05:11:09 <TSCHAKeee> I was present, at the first media announcement of the CueCat and the AudioCat
Jun 02 05:11:21 <TSCHAKeee> July 15, 2000
Jun 02 05:11:34 <TSCHAKeee> at the Westin, in Dallas...
Jun 02 05:11:51 <TSCHAKeee> it was an event put on by Digital Convergence and Belo Interactive
Jun 02 05:12:16 <TSCHAKeee> (which owns Channel 8 and the Dallas Morning News)
Jun 02 05:12:18 <Myrtti> BF just met the inventor a month ago here in Silicon Valley
Jun 02 05:12:33 <TSCHAKeee> heh;)
Jun 02 05:12:42 <mikeleib> I think I got one in the mail
Jun 02 05:12:57 <TSCHAKeee> we had arrived roughly 20 minutes late
Jun 02 05:13:18 <TSCHAKeee> me, and two business partners
Jun 02 05:13:26 <TSCHAKeee> and sat in the back of the room
Jun 02 05:13:33 <TSCHAKeee> of a room FULL of black suit, black tie
Jun 02 05:13:44 <TSCHAKeee> high powered grey haired senior executives
Jun 02 05:14:06 <TSCHAKeee> and here we were, sport jackets...
Jun 02 05:14:13 <TSCHAKeee> i had long shoulder length hair
Jun 02 05:14:18 <TSCHAKeee> we did not belong there
Jun 02 05:14:19 * mikeleib hacks in the t-shirt and jeans
Jun 02 05:14:33 <TSCHAKeee> and we sat at the back of the room
Jun 02 05:14:36 <TSCHAKeee> as they described the system
Jun 02 05:14:46 <TSCHAKeee> and we literally did a security analysis on the fly
Jun 02 05:15:07 <TSCHAKeee> at the back of the room, with my partner martin tapping on a keyboard attached to a handspring visor
Jun 02 05:15:17 <TSCHAKeee> just putting together notes
Jun 02 05:15:26 <TSCHAKeee> and they had a Q&A session at the end of the show
Jun 02 05:15:29 <npm> i've seen gstreamer pipelines that invoke zbar(1) from camera to read barcode
Jun 02 05:15:55 * TSCHAKeee actually has a real honest to god story to tell, can you be any more rude?
Jun 02 05:16:35 <npm> probably :-)
Jun 02 05:16:38 <TSCHAKeee> it had gotten to the end of the event...
Jun 02 05:16:49 <TSCHAKeee> and they point to me at the back of the room,
Jun 02 05:16:56 <TSCHAKeee> "And yes, the...woman at the back of the room?"
Jun 02 05:17:02 <TSCHAKeee> ...I'm a guy.
Jun 02 05:17:23 <mikeleib> did you ask your question in a high voice, at least?
Jun 02 05:17:24 <TSCHAKeee> I chuckle a little..and the guy seems a bit surprised, when I start speaking
Jun 02 05:17:31 <TSCHAKeee> heheh
Jun 02 05:17:49 <TSCHAKeee> but I asked the following question,
Jun 02 05:19:19 <TSCHAKeee> "Consider the following scenario, you have an audio cat signal that you know that will be broadcast on the 6 o'clock news... This may show, a website relating to a news article, whatever... what security measures are you putting in place, in case somebody decides to poison the domain servers of a target site, or doing a man in the middle attack, redirecting the audioCat link to a malicious site??"
Jun 02 05:19:46 <TSCHAKeee> "It would be a highly coordinated virus launching."
Jun 02 05:19:51 <TSCHAKeee> you have never heard
Jun 02 05:19:55 <TSCHAKeee> the oxygen
Jun 02 05:20:00 <TSCHAKeee> get sucked out of a room so quickly in your life.
Jun 02 05:20:18 <TSCHAKeee> everybody went pale
Jun 02 05:20:54 <TSCHAKeee> and the CTO (Chris Matthews) literally darted for the door, as the spokesperson was saying, "Well, this is something that our CTO could definitely answer... Chris?? Chris??"
Jun 02 05:21:19 <TSCHAKeee> everybody in the room, came to talk to us after the event, and we didn't leave for another two hours.
Jun 02 05:21:30 <TSCHAKeee> a small postscript
Jun 02 05:21:58 <TSCHAKeee> the next day, we get an angry call  from the CEO of the company (Jovan....shit, I forget his name now...)
Jun 02 05:22:23 <TSCHAKeee> asking, "ARE YOU GUYS THE FUCKERS WHO EMBARRASSED US AT OUR LAUNCH EVENT?!"
Jun 02 05:22:27 <TSCHAKeee> "Yes."
Jun 02 05:22:40 <TSCHAKeee> "ARE YOU GUYS AN ACCREDITED SECURITY FIRM?!"
Jun 02 05:22:50 <TSCHAKeee> "No. We are an independent research and development firm."
Jun 02 05:23:11 <TSCHAKeee> "WELL, WE DON'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU! WE HAVE MORE MONEY THAN GOD! IF YOU SAY ANYTHING ELSE TO ANYONE, WE'LL SUE YOU!"
Jun 02 05:23:47 <Stskeeps> hehe
Jun 02 05:23:57 <TSCHAKeee> "That's fine. You might be interested to know, that all of your servers have a DNS vulnerability that makes them vulnerable to cache poisoning, and invasion by rootkit. Your data is in danger of being compromised."
Jun 02 05:24:09 <TSCHAKeee> "You need to apply these fixes.. (and we listed them)"
Jun 02 05:24:27 <TSCHAKeee> "WE HAVE EXPERIENCED PEOPLE WHO DO ALL THIS!"
Jun 02 05:24:46 <TSCHAKeee> "Ok.. also, your CueCat encryption was very simple to break, others will break it too."
Jun 02 05:24:56 <TSCHAKeee> "IF YOU TELL ANYONE ANYTHING, WE WILL SUE YOU!"
Jun 02 05:25:21 <TSCHAKeee> "Ok, we will not. Feel free to send over any NDA you wish. But you should heed our warning."
Jun 02 05:25:35 <TSCHAKeee> "YOU WILL HEAR FROM OUR ATTORNEYS! GOOD BYE!"
Jun 02 05:25:40 <TSCHAKeee> we never did...but...
Jun 02 05:25:54 <TSCHAKeee> the next week, a perl script showed up, which "cracked" the CueCat encryption
Jun 02 05:25:55 <Termana> morning
Jun 02 05:26:00 <TSCHAKeee> the week after that
Jun 02 05:26:31 <TSCHAKeee> Digital Convergence's servers were cracked, stealing hundreds of thousands of subscriber data, credit card info from magazine subscribers
Jun 02 05:26:35 <TSCHAKeee> who were sent cuecats.
Jun 02 05:26:58 <TSCHAKeee> not long after, Digital Convergence, and the cue cat, were history.
Jun 02 05:27:05 <TSCHAKeee> anyway..that's my story. fin. ;)
Jun 02 05:27:32 <TSCHAKeee> I feel damned good that i played an active part in making those idiot fuckers burn in hell.
Jun 02 05:29:42 * mikeleib froots with automake
Jun 02 05:29:59 <TSCHAKeee> yay autobreak
Jun 02 05:31:16 <dm8tbr> ah autotools always a source of entertainment
Jun 02 05:31:37 <Termana> "accredited" security firm? I didn't know anyone was going around "accrediting" security firms now, unless that guy was just a tool. Which he sounds like he was regardless.
Jun 02 05:32:23 <TSCHAKeee> Termana: "Tool"
Jun 02 05:32:31 <TSCHAKeee> Termana: the term he used was "Tiger Team"
Jun 02 05:32:42 <TSCHAKeee> which made me almost chuckle
Jun 02 05:32:53 <TSCHAKeee> it took everything to keep me from chuckling
Jun 02 05:33:10 <Termana> lol :p
Jun 02 05:33:28 <dm8tbr> which is a valid term, though totally weird in context
Jun 02 05:33:33 <TSCHAKeee> but yeah, this was the end of the dot com boom
Jun 02 05:33:53 <TSCHAKeee> dumb marketeers snow jobbing everybody
Jun 02 05:34:17 <TSCHAKeee> and most people too dumb to know that they were being shown smoke and mirrors
Jun 02 05:34:36 <TSCHAKeee> and we were just these young kids.. I was BARELY in my 20s.
Jun 02 05:34:46 <TSCHAKeee> I was 20 years old.
Jun 02 05:35:21 <TSCHAKeee> we had gotten invited to this crazy ass junket
Jun 02 05:35:37 <TSCHAKeee> because the guy who funded us, put money into Belo.
Jun 02 05:35:58 <TSCHAKeee> dumb luck.
Jun 02 05:58:46 <mikeleib> how do you ask osc to rebuild yer package?
Jun 02 06:03:01 <Stskeeps> osc rebuild?
Jun 02 06:04:43 <mikeleib> indeed
Jun 02 06:06:07 <mikeleib> w00t
Jun 02 06:06:19 * mikeleib beats the timelag on the obs builder
Jun 02 06:28:26 <mikeleib> 'night hackers
Jun 02 06:41:39 <sofar> did I miss a party in here or what?
Jun 02 06:42:12 <Stskeeps> dunno
Jun 02 06:42:27 <Stskeeps> i'm waking up to people stating arm builds saying 'rpm --initdb' doesn't work on OBS arm builds :)
Jun 02 06:42:30 <Stskeeps> fun stuff
Jun 02 06:44:45 <arfoll> just trying to keep you entertained ;-)
Jun 02 06:45:03 <sofar> speaking of TV
Jun 02 06:45:13 <sofar> and other messes
Jun 02 06:45:38 <sofar> arfoll: lol@ repo dancing
Jun 02 06:45:59 <arfoll> sofar, repo dancing?
Jun 02 07:01:38 <sofar> for a moment there, I though TSCHAKeee had gone crazy and I needed to boot him :D
Jun 02 07:02:32 <sofar> ouch, udev fails to build in trunk:testing
Jun 02 07:05:24 <sofar> oooo I think attr is really broken now
Jun 02 07:06:43 <Stskeeps> yeah, something looks really bad in that regard
Jun 02 07:06:59 <sofar> I think libattr.la is now moved or gone
Jun 02 07:07:11 <sofar> or packages need to explicitly BuildRequires: libattr-devel
Jun 02 07:07:23 <sofar> http://build.meego.com/package/view_file?file=attr-2.2.0-multilib.patch&package=attr&project=devel%3Abase&srcmd5=8f21caa8cb645d6440d7eaa6be8c9a1a
Jun 02 07:07:26 <sofar> ha
Jun 02 07:07:55 <sofar> anaZ: ^^
Jun 02 07:09:11 <sofar> I looked at the spec but it has a wildcard which doesn't make it clear that .la was removed from the installed file list
Jun 02 07:09:47 <sofar> strange how it fails now
Jun 02 07:13:32 <sofar> Stskeeps: I mailed Anas, he'll look at it once he spots it as usual
Jun 02 07:13:37 <Stskeeps> ok
Jun 02 07:14:02 <sofar> the attr build log has some clues
Jun 02 07:14:08 <sofar> libtool: install: warning: `../libattr/libattr.la' has not been installed in `/lib'
Jun 02 07:31:29 <iekku> morning
Jun 02 07:34:22 * sofar goes to bed
Jun 02 07:56:33 <zinit> mornings
Jun 02 07:56:52 * slaine needs coffee
Jun 02 07:57:03 <zinit> whats the command in irssi to not show all the connect/disconnects
Jun 02 07:57:07 * CosmoHill appears with coffee
Jun 02 07:57:50 <zinit> forgot many of those custom commands since I havent used irc much for the last 5 years
Jun 02 07:58:10 <iekku> zinit, that's bad
Jun 02 07:58:50 <iekku> i haven't ever learned them, even i have used irc last hmmm 17 years :D
Jun 02 07:59:15 <zinit> iekku: neeh, had a configuration script I used for many years, that one went lost in the last reinstall some 2 years ago...
Jun 02 07:59:37 <andre__> so if I see "submit a merge request with your patch" in Bugzilla - is that process documented somewhere?
Jun 02 08:00:28 <zinit> been using irc since the days of 14400 modems... but the last 5 years its been low on the priority list. been too much other things to deal with
Jun 02 08:01:20 <zinit> I know there was some commands to change the settings so the connects/disconnects doesnt show in channels.
Jun 02 08:01:28 <iekku> andre__, i haven't seen the documentation
Jun 02 08:01:39 <iekku> andre__, have tried to find
Jun 02 08:02:08 <andre__> I wonder if non-corporate folks actually can do this.
Jun 02 08:02:23 * andre__ looks at the almighty and ever-knowing Stskeeps
Jun 02 08:03:13 <Stskeeps> andre__: sounds like a misconception. they mean a patch?
Jun 02 08:03:17 <Stskeeps> andre__: or URL to gitorious
Jun 02 08:03:34 <andre__> Stskeeps, https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18048#c4
Jun 02 08:03:37 <MeeGoBot> Bug 18048 nor, Medium, ---, carl.wong, ASSI, Unable to multiple select at a time when add attachment in Email app
Jun 02 08:03:50 <andre__> I wonder if that's a "helpful" comment or not
Jun 02 08:04:10 <andre__> I would have "just" asked to add a patch to the bug report, so I wonder
Jun 02 08:08:07 <zinit> now.. lets see how that goes... /ignore * joins hides all join and quit messages
Jun 02 08:08:19 <zinit> (according to irssi.org....
Jun 02 08:15:05 <tonberry_> guys look at this
Jun 02 08:15:07 <tonberry_> http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/02/the-oh-sh_t-moment-that-nokia-decided-to-abandon-meego/
Jun 02 08:15:25 <Stskeeps> already read it
Jun 02 08:15:32 <Stskeeps> please read the full article, there's many interesting pieces in there
Jun 02 08:15:59 <Stskeeps> and understand that due to confusion with Harmattan, MeeGo might not mean MeeGo.com
Jun 02 08:16:32 <tonberry_> what about it?
Jun 02 08:17:58 <Stskeeps> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_24/b4232056703101.htm , page 3 is interesting
Jun 02 08:19:22 <tonberry_> i am confuse with nokia direction
Jun 02 08:22:05 <lcuk> morning \o
Jun 02 08:24:42 <CosmoHill> hey lcuk
Jun 02 08:27:27 <lcuk> hiya CosmoHill
Jun 02 08:27:53 * lcuk downloads the sanity image today 
Jun 02 08:28:09 <lcuk> since the dailies are not produced and I have the acceptance image already
Jun 02 08:28:17 <lcuk> I hope the touchscreen is responsive on this one
Jun 02 08:31:07 <CosmoHill> your internet must be better than mine
Jun 02 08:33:10 <frals> hm, wonder since when tampere got most meego ppl in nokia
Jun 02 08:33:52 <Stskeeps> frals: i think many hw people were sitting there
Jun 02 08:34:24 <frals> ye... but i dont think they rival the number of ruoholahti
Jun 02 08:34:38 <frals> *shrug* doesnt really matter anymore i guess :p
Jun 02 08:46:54 <lcuk> frals, \o
Jun 02 08:50:34 <lcuk> Stskeeps, from what you know of the hardware, do you think WP7+ phones will be open for firmware updates (from a meego build down the line)
Jun 02 08:51:25 <Stskeeps> lcuk: i'm happily involved with meego.com, i have no idea about hardware, products or for that matter, WP7
Jun 02 08:52:32 <lcuk> Stskeeps, ok then let me rephrase - is it feasible to consider that as meego.com grows stronger that people could begin finding ways to unlock devices to flash the firmware onto it
Jun 02 08:52:43 <Stskeeps> lcuk: with anything, linux kernels are always a problem
Jun 02 08:52:52 <Stskeeps> it is a losing game to get a product running after the fact
Jun 02 08:55:19 <lcuk> Stskeeps, so what game are you playing?
Jun 02 08:55:41 <Stskeeps> lcuk: wrt n900 de? preparing to be ahead of the game
Jun 02 08:55:43 <zinit> since nokia is one of the supporters of meego it would make sense that they would release a meego mobile too...
Jun 02 08:56:01 <zinit> the n900 is getting old now.. time for a gen. 2 of that one?
Jun 02 08:56:12 <lcuk> in what sense Stskeeps?
Jun 02 08:56:12 <Stskeeps> i broke my usb port, i wouldn't mind a product around now
Jun 02 08:56:21 <alterego> I dunno, the N900 just keeps giving for me :)
Jun 02 08:56:36 * lcuk concurs with alterego 
Jun 02 08:56:45 <Stskeeps> lcuk: in the sense that the work we do is usable everywhere else, as well as contributions to meego arm
Jun 02 08:57:02 <alterego> Three years is a long time for a mobile to still be in the game ..
Jun 02 08:57:20 <lcuk> alterego, Nokia 3210 is still in use in many peoples pockets
Jun 02 08:57:35 <alterego> Really? That was a nice phone actually.
Jun 02 08:58:06 <lcuk> alterego, same as people still use DOS or Windows 95 or any other product
Jun 02 08:58:17 <alterego> It's going to be a hot day ..
Jun 02 08:58:21 <lcuk> people buy things because they have a need
Jun 02 08:58:21 <zinit> DOS was at least stable:P
Jun 02 08:58:57 <Termana> It's no coincidence alterego said it will be a hot day just after lcuk said people still use DOS and Windows 95
Jun 02 08:59:00 <Termana> :p
Jun 02 08:59:39 <lcuk> lol
Jun 02 09:00:17 <zinit> some people still use the nokia 1611... (my dad for one.. the antenna is great so its a good phone to use in the boat)
Jun 02 09:00:29 <lcuk> Stskeeps, I agree entirely about n900-de stuff, I am involved in the same initiative and see it improve and hope I am helping to advance it where practical
Jun 02 09:00:39 * lcuk uses his n900 for so many things
Jun 02 09:01:12 <lcuk> Stskeeps, you have no way to flash images onto n900?
Jun 02 09:01:28 <Stskeeps> lcuk: uboot
Jun 02 09:01:35 <lcuk> roger
Jun 02 09:03:21 <Termana> Stskeeps, are you using an external charger/another N900 to charge your battery?
Jun 02 09:03:29 <Stskeeps> Termana: yeah, i have two n900s
Jun 02 09:03:38 <Stskeeps> i could technically use a n810 if i really wanted
Jun 02 09:04:00 <Stskeeps> http://thpmaemo.blogspot.com/2009/12/charging-bl-5j-n900-battery-in-n810.html
Jun 02 09:04:14 <lcuk> Stskeeps, speaking of n810, how did the meego build for it go?
Jun 02 09:04:20 <Stskeeps> lcuk: it's stalled somewhere, which annoys me a bit
Jun 02 09:04:51 <alterego> Stskeeps: we should go for those MeeGo CA jobs @ Nokia :P
Jun 02 09:04:53 <lcuk> I powered mine back up
Jun 02 09:05:05 <Stskeeps> alterego: it is tempting, but i would want to make sure it's not harmattan ;)
Jun 02 09:05:27 <lcuk> and for the 5 minutes before the touchscreen warmed up was highly amused at software on it :D
Jun 02 09:05:30 <alterego> They said MeeGo right? :P
Jun 02 09:05:38 <zinit> would be nice to be able to run meego on the iphone or then N8
Jun 02 09:06:15 <alterego> N8 is too underpowered
Jun 02 09:06:19 <Termana> Stskeeps, any further version upgrades happened to the N810 kernel?
Jun 02 09:06:26 <Stskeeps> Termana: i haven't seen any stuff
Jun 02 09:06:51 <zinit> wonder if the SE X10 has the power..
Jun 02 09:06:58 <lcuk> Stskeeps, you recall in liqbase I had a tagcloud which just sat there with default tags?   well now it is all setup and group tagging of all 7000 sketches is in place :)
Jun 02 09:07:12 <lcuk> wonderful to have a great big list from every discussion with people
Jun 02 09:07:13 <Termana> Hmm, might to time to find it and have some fun!
Jun 02 09:07:36 <zinit> the iphone and ipad does have the power... but I got a nasty feeling apple have been extreme at preventing any reinstall of them...
Jun 02 09:08:36 <Termana> zinit, they are making some pretty good progress on loading linux onto the iPhone 4, and I believe they have it running on the iPad (1 I think, not iPad 2).
Jun 02 09:08:48 <Termana> You would only have issues with the Handset UX (possibly)
Jun 02 09:09:00 <Termana> (no 3D acceleration)
Jun 02 09:09:02 <lcuk> alterego, N8 is not underpowered, the software is overheavy
Jun 02 09:09:32 <lcuk> I heard from someone saying a qt based list/grid with a few pictures and labels felt sluggish when it had more than about 6 items in it
Jun 02 09:10:39 <lcuk> <elpuri> if i take the delegate creation out of the equation (flickable + column + repeater), force text to vgimage caching, 6 items having 2-4 images + three labels (images really because of the caching) it's on the limit
Jun 02 09:10:40 <lcuk> <elpuri> without the text caching it's horrible
Jun 02 09:10:40 <lcuk> <elpuri> the periodic dropping of frames is of course because of the animation driver using a normal timer and fixed now
Jun 02 09:11:18 <alterego> When he says fixed now, does he mean in QML Scene Graph?
Jun 02 09:11:32 <lcuk> well that was where the questions came from
Jun 02 09:11:35 <zinit> heard something about someone sticking some BSD on an ipad 2. and someone had been able to get gentoo on one. but havent seen it in action myself
Jun 02 09:11:37 <lcuk> he hoped it would fix it
Jun 02 09:12:01 <zinit> the ipad2 would be a great linux tablet
Jun 02 09:12:07 <lcuk> alterego, he had to really try overly hard for somethign that should just work
Jun 02 09:12:22 <zinit> does the amd m50 or whatever its called handle meego?
Jun 02 09:12:48 <zinit> acer has the w500 tablet out.. comes with win7 home premiium for some reason..
Jun 02 09:13:13 <alterego> I don't think the iPad (2) would make a good Linux tablet at all.
Jun 02 09:13:19 <alterego> I need USB!
Jun 02 09:13:24 <alterego> And a card reader
Jun 02 09:13:29 <alterego> At the _least_
Jun 02 09:13:32 <zinit> a friend told me he had no trouble with debian on the w500
Jun 02 09:13:40 <Termana> Besides that, technically you can run Linux on anything with a web browser!
Jun 02 09:13:42 <Termana> bellard.org/jslinux
Jun 02 09:13:43 <Termana> :p
Jun 02 09:13:45 <zinit> card reader and usb for ipad2 is accessories
Jun 02 09:15:36 <zinit> saw they had it at the apple store here in dublin.
Jun 02 09:16:30 <Termana> zinit, just out of interest are you sure they specifically meant a BSD on the iPad 2 and not simply "BSD subsystem"?
Jun 02 09:18:36 <zinit> dont know how they did it. heard from someone I know that they had installed BSD on an ipad2 at a workshop they had at a linux user group in norway
Jun 02 09:18:46 <zinit> never seen it in action myself
Jun 02 09:20:01 <zinit> still, I got a feeling that voids the warranty:P
Jun 02 09:20:50 <zinit> wouldnt mind having meego on my iphone though... getting kinda fed up with apple's insanity...
Jun 02 09:24:27 <zinit> dont know if the iphone 3gs got the power to run it though..
Jun 02 09:25:29 <slaine> Anyone looked inside the MeeGoConf Dublin Lenovo ?
Jun 02 09:25:39 <zinit> yes
Jun 02 09:25:56 <zinit> stuck 2 gigs ram into mine
Jun 02 09:26:04 <arfoll> slaine, yes removed the hdd
Jun 02 09:26:05 <slaine> I was looking this morning to see what type of RAM to get, as crucial listed 2 different types for that hardware, and I noticed an expansion slot
Jun 02 09:26:08 <zinit> took it apart while I was at it:P
Jun 02 09:26:18 <zinit> the ddr2
Jun 02 09:27:11 <arfoll> yeah there is a mini PCI-E expansion slot, unfortunately the bios won't let you put what you want in there
Jun 02 09:28:27 <zinit> most cards work.. tried the 3G card I have in the other netbook and that one worked fine, so did the atheros wifi card I tried
Jun 02 09:28:58 <zinit> the 3g card was an ericsson
Jun 02 09:29:27 <arfoll> you had more luck than me then, both atheros cards i tried caused the thing to refuse to boot
Jun 02 09:29:27 <zinit> updated the bios before doing that
Jun 02 09:29:51 <slaine> arfoll: shit, was thinking of getting an SSD for that
Jun 02 09:30:17 <zinit> some compatability issues was solved in the latest bios that is on the lenovo website
Jun 02 09:30:17 <arfoll> slaine, just shove an SSD instead of the HDD.
Jun 02 09:30:29 <slaine> Yeah, that was the original plan
Jun 02 09:30:33 <arfoll> zinit, how do you flash the bios once you don't have meego?
Jun 02 09:30:39 <zinit> ssd works. the one from my acer I just plugged in
Jun 02 09:30:41 <slaine> it's crawling to a halt and this is my main dev machine
Jun 02 09:30:50 <slaine> sad but true
Jun 02 09:31:04 <arfoll> tbh i had an X25-M in it, but it seemed like a waste so i put a raid0 on my workstation :-)
Jun 02 09:31:09 <zinit> installed win7 ultimate to dualboot with meego
Jun 02 09:31:29 <arfoll> thought of installing windows makes me cringe
Jun 02 09:31:44 <zinit> wow works rather badly in meego
Jun 02 09:31:47 <zinit> :P
Jun 02 09:32:13 <zinit> in win7 wow, sc2 and eve online worked quite nicly
Jun 02 09:35:36 <zinit> and tethering with my phone didnt work in meego using the cable. with BT it worked fine. unfortunatly the iphone gets insanly hot when going through BT and eats the battery
Jun 02 09:38:28 <zinit> need to use windows for work stuff, (company policy aparently. and the AD authentication makes linux go bonkers:)
Jun 02 09:41:15 <dwmw2> zinit: define 'bonkers'
Jun 02 09:41:40 <dwmw2> preferably just in terms of bug numbers
Jun 02 09:41:45 <dwmw2> but prose will suffice
Jun 02 09:41:52 <zinit> bonkers = nuts, crazy, crash
Jun 02 09:43:08 <zinit> also used for insanity in referral to people going mad
Jun 02 09:43:23 <dwmw2> hm, 284 messages on my mail queue to nokia.com, and no response from postmaster@nokia.com
Jun 02 09:43:24 <zinit> (irish and uk expression mainly I think
Jun 02 09:43:30 <dwmw2> has nokia already imploded?
Jun 02 09:43:58 <dwmw2> zinit: I know what 'bonkers' means. It's also a completely uninformative description of a problem
Jun 02 09:44:00 <Stskeeps> dwmw2: nah, it just uses exchange ;)
Jun 02 09:44:09 <slaine> So, will order 2Gb (thats the max I assume) and an SSD, probably 100gb
Jun 02 09:44:11 <zinit> exacly
Jun 02 09:44:21 <slaine> Thought that's probably way too much
Jun 02 09:44:27 <dwmw2> 2,000,000,000 bits?
Jun 02 09:44:40 <dwmw2> 250,000,000 bytes?
Jun 02 09:45:01 <dwmw2> or about 238.4 MiB ?
Jun 02 09:45:22 <dwmw2> that's a strange number. Why that number?
Jun 02 09:46:11 <zinit> fun when linux decides to suddenly log you out because the exchange server decides to ask for your username and password... or kernel panic when you try to authenticate to the oracle system using ietab (doesnt work in other browsers than IE6)
Jun 02 09:46:20 * slaine wonders who dwmw2 is talking to
Jun 02 09:46:26 <zinit> weird system...
Jun 02 09:47:03 <dwmw2> slaine: you. You said you'd order 2Gb (which is 238.418 MiB)
Jun 02 09:47:20 <slaine> Oh, caps nazi, sorry
Jun 02 09:47:29 <slaine> 2GB and 100GB, happy ?
Jun 02 09:47:34 <zinit> the machine can take 1 2GB dimm.
Jun 02 09:47:45 <dwmw2> I've never seen a machine that can take a 2GB DIMM
Jun 02 09:47:51 <dwmw2> they usually like them to be powers of two
Jun 02 09:47:54 <dwmw2> 2GiB I've seen
Jun 02 09:48:04 <zinit> the machine has 1 socket
Jun 02 09:48:06 <slaine> Its got a 1GB in it according to the sticker
Jun 02 09:48:23 <zinit> 512 soldered on the mobo and 512 in a socket
Jun 02 09:48:38 <zinit> when you stick in a 2 gig in the socket it disables the 512 onboard
Jun 02 09:49:23 <slaine> Bastards, you mine I (didn't) pay for ram that I can't use ?
Jun 02 09:49:26 <slaine> mean
Jun 02 09:49:37 <slaine> gah, need coffee, dyslexia overdrive
Jun 02 09:50:02 <zinit> you can have 512MB, 1, 1.5 or 2 gigs in it
Jun 02 09:50:31 <zinit> dont know if the chipset supports more than 2 gigs memory. never seen netbooks with more than 2 gigs memory
Jun 02 09:50:40 <zinit> (not atom ones at least)
Jun 02 09:50:51 <slaine> 4 would nice, but 2 will be twice as good as 1
Jun 02 09:50:56 <zinit> yepp
Jun 02 09:51:08 <slaine> (was using 950MB or 1GB swap last night, ugh)
Jun 02 09:51:16 <slaine> s/or/of/
Jun 02 09:51:16 <infobot> slaine meant: (was using 950MB of 1GB swap last night, ugh)
Jun 02 10:47:12 <tonberry_> gtg, cya all
Jun 02 10:52:01 <dwmw2> anyone here from nokia?
Jun 02 10:52:33 <Stskeeps> might be some, but i think it's a finnish holiday today
Jun 02 10:52:57 <dwmw2> ah, thanks
Jun 02 10:53:05 <SpeedEvil> It's a finnish holiday for lots at nokia recently. :/
Jun 02 10:53:06 <alterego> dwmw2: any reason in particular you need a Nokian?
Jun 02 10:53:26 <dwmw2> alterego: yes, I have 284 messages in my mail queue for nokia.com and there seems to be a problem with the mail server.
Jun 02 10:53:35 <dwmw2> and my mail to postmaster@nokia.com has not been answered
Jun 02 10:53:36 <alterego> Oh, hah
Jun 02 10:53:40 <dwmw2> although if it's a holiday, that might explain it
Jun 02 10:54:01 <Stskeeps> out of curiousity, do you run a mailing list or something?
Jun 02 10:54:07 <dwmw2> I was on the verge of just kicking all nokians off the linux-mtd and linux-arm-kernel and other lists that are affected
Jun 02 10:54:11 <Stskeeps> ah
Jun 02 10:54:17 <dwmw2> but I'll give them another day...
Jun 02 10:54:28 <alterego> When did this start?
Jun 02 10:54:35 <dwmw2> not entirely sure
Jun 02 10:54:49 <Stskeeps> how does it refuse them anyway?
Jun 02 10:55:32 <dwmw2>   SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
Jun 02 10:55:32 <dwmw2>   host mx2.nokia.com [147.243.177.58]: 451 4.3.2 Please try again late
Jun 02 10:55:47 <dwmw2> Which *could* have been greylisting, at least until the first 24 hours had elapsed :)
Jun 02 10:56:06 <dwmw2> but this host is in dnswl.org *and* it's been observed to queue mail and retry sending it later
Jun 02 10:56:18 <dwmw2> so it would have to be a *really* broken greylisting implementation to still be delaying *any* messages from it
Jun 02 10:56:56 <dwmw2> oldest message I have on the queue is 4 days, I think
Jun 02 10:57:16 <dwmw2> but it doesn't get held for much longer than that before the mailer just bounces it back to mailman as undeliverable.
Jun 02 10:58:15 <Stskeeps> :nod:
Jun 02 10:58:27 <dwmw2> I hadn't been paying much attention to the mail queues before
Jun 02 11:15:02 * CosmoHill has hayfever AND a cold :(
Jun 02 11:17:31 <slaine> CosmoHill: snap
Jun 02 11:18:58 <CosmoHill> on the plus side I have high grades :)
Jun 02 11:19:15 <slaine> congrats
Jun 02 11:19:47 <lcuk> nice one CosmoHill \o/
Jun 02 11:37:45 * CosmoHill looks at lbt_hel then his host name
Jun 02 14:07:12 * slaine gets the feeling MS have been using the Lenovo Ideapad S10-3t's for Windows 8 development
Jun 02 14:07:32 <Stskeeps> oh?
Jun 02 14:11:53 <Venemo> slaine, in that case, this model has been clearly a success for Lenovo
Jun 02 14:13:16 <slaine> Stskeeps: the new UX they're showcasing seems ideal for machines which are both a desktop/laptop and have a touchscreen. Cause clearly it's not one thing or the other ;)
Jun 02 14:13:53 <slaine> Venemo: other than the trackpad, I'm happy with it
Jun 02 14:15:56 <maligor> googling that got me a "Evolutionary adaptation of desktop virtualization" slide, looks like Windows 9 will have to virtualize the hardware itself or there'll be no progress ;P
Jun 02 14:21:03 <CosmoHill> slaine: I can imagine someone poking one of them touch screen Dells to hard and the screen flipping over
Jun 02 14:21:16 <slaine> lol
Jun 02 14:21:34 <CosmoHill> it's one way to fail battle ships
Jun 02 14:22:04 <hadess> hey, anyone here who would be working on sensorfw?
Jun 02 14:22:30 <Stskeeps> -> Ronksu, but i think the finns are on holiday today
Jun 02 14:23:25 <hadess> Stskeeps, thanks, will try again tmw i guess
Jun 02 14:26:17 * SpeedEvil ponders the need for Meego UI to be 'next generation', and clearly better.
Jun 02 14:26:29 <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQO-aOdJLiw - perhaps this guy might have some input?
Jun 02 14:26:51 * Stskeeps still sort-of believes in no-UX, just like a home isn't only IKEA furniture.
Jun 02 14:27:48 <Stskeeps> and wtf
Jun 02 14:27:48 <Stskeeps> :P
Jun 02 14:28:21 * gabrbedd still sort-of believes that rank-and-file-end-users do not want a totally new UI for every device.
Jun 02 14:29:11 <maligor> matrix printer for output... I wonder how small they could make those... matrix printer mobile phone
Jun 02 14:29:31 <gabrbedd> SpeedEvil: it's the new ewe!
Jun 02 14:29:33 <Stskeeps> i mean, take star trek or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cf7IL_eZ38 (a day made of glass)
Jun 02 14:29:37 <Stskeeps> there's no coherent ux theme
Jun 02 14:29:44 <Stskeeps> it's just functional to the task
Jun 02 14:31:03 <gabrbedd> Stskeeps: OK, I follow you now.
Jun 02 14:31:26 <berndhs> theming is often abused for branding, from a functional point of view
Jun 02 14:31:47 <gabrbedd> Stskeeps: But in the mean time we're dealing with a lot of multi-functional devices -- and I think that implies a UX.
Jun 02 14:32:08 <SpeedEvil> For single function - yes - no UX is probably reasonable.
Jun 02 14:32:09 <Stskeeps> standard methods of interaction, maybe
Jun 02 14:32:26 <Stskeeps> task-oriented, activity-oriented.. or something
Jun 02 14:32:56 <SpeedEvil> But for anything with more than one mode, or with a browser, or other 'standard' stuff - you need to learn lots of annoying special cases that the designer thought looked pretty.
Jun 02 14:33:06 <berndhs> right, easily remembered/discovered ways of operating things
Jun 02 14:33:14 <berndhs> but not every app looking the same
Jun 02 14:34:40 <SpeedEvil> Stskeeps: Also - world of ass seems to omit the fact that glass can't magically display content.
Jun 02 14:34:43 <SpeedEvil> glass
Jun 02 14:35:33 <gabrbedd> Stskeeps: BTW, did you see arfoll's talk about "creating audio continuums?
Jun 02 14:35:46 <gabrbedd> Stskeeps: reminds me of when you were talking about "cyber foraging."
Jun 02 14:35:51 <Stskeeps> gabrbedd: no, but i intend to
Jun 02 14:36:09 <Stskeeps> SpeedEvil: transparent displays are actually fairly far along
Jun 02 14:36:13 <berndhs> displays should all be holographic, no more screens
Jun 02 14:36:36 <Stskeeps> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5sFFMahZyQ
Jun 02 14:37:53 <SpeedEvil> Stskeeps: Sure. I know.
Jun 02 14:38:10 <SpeedEvil> And those are rather more translucent at best.
Jun 02 14:38:34 <SpeedEvil> It's hidden by the fact that the back is illuminated.
Jun 02 14:38:41 <Stskeeps> :nod:
Jun 02 14:38:49 <SpeedEvil> At best you typically get around 10% light through.
Jun 02 14:38:58 <SpeedEvil> And it's rather blurry.
Jun 02 14:39:09 <Stskeeps> and tv used to be black and white, too
Jun 02 14:39:10 <Stskeeps> ;)
Jun 02 14:39:33 <berndhs> Stskeeps: and blurry
Jun 02 14:40:09 <SpeedEvil> There are good reasons - diffraction - why it's blurry.
Jun 02 14:40:35 <SpeedEvil> Getting transparent colour displays that don't diffract is going to be tricky.
Jun 02 14:41:07 <berndhs> right, so  not in time for 1.3
Jun 02 14:41:36 <gabrbedd> berndhs: lol!
Jun 02 14:43:35 <berndhs> the Corning stuff has good ideas for a lot of applications though
Jun 02 14:44:04 <SpeedEvil> Umm...
Jun 02 14:44:22 <SpeedEvil> In principle, in an ideal futuire, where display technology is nearly free.
Jun 02 14:44:40 <berndhs> nah you're looking at the details of their presentation
Jun 02 14:44:43 <berndhs> not the concept
Jun 02 14:44:47 <Stskeeps> heh, i recall when LCDs were extremely expensive
Jun 02 14:45:21 <berndhs> the concept I'm thinking of is controlling every day stuff, like the cooking interface
Jun 02 14:45:30 <SpeedEvil> berndhs: Hehe.
Jun 02 14:45:36 <berndhs> that doesnt need much presentation its just a control thing
Jun 02 14:45:55 * SpeedEvil keeps meaning to reterofit his old microwave with a linux controller.
Jun 02 14:46:03 <SpeedEvil> combi microwave.
Jun 02 14:46:13 <SpeedEvil> Tehre is so much cool stuff you can do.
Jun 02 14:46:37 * gabrbedd still prefers the old, mechanical, lasts-forever appliance controls instead of the new-fangled, fragile, and expensive-to-replace "digital" controls.
Jun 02 14:46:43 <SpeedEvil> For example - save energy. Cover a dish - heat it at 100% power till the humidity in the output exceeds 90% - then servo the power to keep it at 40%
Jun 02 14:46:49 <SpeedEvil> SAve energy, no risk of burning.
Jun 02 14:47:12 <SpeedEvil> Similarly with cooking surfaces - I want a mode that will never ever let the pan surface exceed 180C.
Jun 02 14:47:14 <Stskeeps> gabrbedd: i kinda liked a concept i saw at one point, analog controls on top of digital surfaces
Jun 02 14:47:28 <SpeedEvil> And ideally sense this on a pan-by-pan basis.
Jun 02 14:47:49 <SpeedEvil> So it might have a hard limit and never even if the user chooses to - allow PTFE pans to exceed 200C
Jun 02 14:47:55 <SpeedEvil> (unless the user confirms)
Jun 02 14:48:08 <gabrbedd> Stskeeps: Yeah, that's nice... but I was really talking about how the PCB's in your dishwasher don't last.  And when they break it totals the dishwasher.
Jun 02 14:48:45 <gabrbedd> OTOH, the ones with mechanical controls (switches, cames, etc) last nearly forever.
Jun 02 14:48:59 <SpeedEvil> gabrbedd: I've been going on a bout the fact that it would be lovely if there was a mandated standard ECU for cars, for ages.
Jun 02 14:49:00 <gabrbedd> ...so it's when a motor or pump goes out that the dishwasher it totalled.
Jun 02 14:49:21 <SpeedEvil> gabrbedd: 99% of cars engines can be completely dealt with with a commodity ECU.
Jun 02 14:49:28 <SpeedEvil> They're not doing anything particularly clever.
Jun 02 14:49:58 <gabrbedd> SpeedEvil: True.
Jun 02 14:50:42 <SpeedEvil> gabrbedd: I've got a car with a broken ECU - that would cost more than its value to get the dealer to replace the ECU.
Jun 02 14:50:54 <SpeedEvil> I need to solder up the megasquirt...
Jun 02 14:52:56 <berndhs> i had a 1966 Mustang with ECU
Jun 02 14:53:38 <berndhs> electronics never failed in that one :)
Jun 02 14:54:09 <SpeedEvil> But in that case, you can probably repair it with 2n3055s.
Jun 02 14:54:22 <SpeedEvil> A modern ECU has firmware, and complex unpublished interactions with the car.
Jun 02 14:54:37 <SpeedEvil> So you can't debug any more than the most basic failures.
Jun 02 14:55:01 <berndhs> the 66 ECU was blowing air onto the exhaust valves, reduce unburned hydrocarbons
Jun 02 15:31:33 <berndhs> what's the twitter thread, there may be a rumor, but maybe not ?
Jun 02 15:32:18 <w00t> rumour has it that there may be a rumour that may not be true so there is just a rumour that there's a rumour so as not to disappoint folks when the rumoured rumour turns out to be just that: a rumour
Jun 02 15:32:31 <berndhs> ah
Jun 02 15:32:34 <Stskeeps> .. what rumour
Jun 02 15:33:18 <w00t> Stskeeps: it's just a rumour that there is a rumour :-)
Jun 02 15:33:29 <Stskeeps> like the rumour there's a new handset ux, got it..
Jun 02 15:33:30 <Stskeeps> :P
Jun 02 15:33:50 <berndhs> that and the fear of cucumbers, things are just not the same
Jun 02 15:33:53 <w00t> https://twitter.com/#!/MeeGoExperts/status/76302371591950337 follow that thread back if you like
Jun 02 15:33:57 <w00t> not much there though, honestly
Jun 02 15:36:26 <gabrbedd> Mostly just poking ash for being a tease.
Jun 02 15:59:05 <tripzero> w00t, i heard a rumor about your rumor of a rumor
Jun 02 16:00:02 <w00t> the rumour is a lie!
Jun 02 16:19:11 <slaine> DawnFoster: nice video
Jun 02 16:19:36 <slaine> I recognize a few faces from the Dublin conference but don't know names
Jun 02 16:19:48 <slaine> apart from nearyd
Jun 02 16:21:00 <DawnFoster> slaine: thanks! they did a great job on it
Jun 02 16:21:18 <DawnFoster> my only role was arm twisting people to get them in front of the camera :)
Jun 02 16:21:31 <slaine> a nice little cameo spot too
Jun 02 16:22:51 <DawnFoster> I was trying to get something other than European white dudes :)
Jun 02 16:24:12 <slaine> Nod, white middle-class nerds, the scourge of our industry.
Jun 02 16:25:31 <slaine> That was sarcasm btw, just of the record ;)
Jun 02 16:25:55 <vgrade> oh, http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/06/nook-color-hacked-meego/
Jun 02 16:26:15 <Stskeeps> that was quick, really :P
Jun 02 16:26:20 <Stskeeps> i wonder if it's softfp though
Jun 02 16:26:46 <slaine> Stskeeps: I'm guessing yes
Jun 02 16:27:17 <slaine> looks to be accelerated and I understood from the conversation yesterday that the gles acceleration blobs are softfp only ?
Jun 02 16:27:31 <Stskeeps> yeah.. stupid situation really
Jun 02 16:27:43 <Stskeeps> especially since for once, it seems everybody in the ARM world agree on a baseline
Jun 02 16:27:49 <Stskeeps> which is interestingily enough, hardfp
Jun 02 16:27:56 <Stskeeps> they're even proposing LSB ARM
Jun 02 16:28:18 <slaine> Are we excluded or have Linaro just not got them blobs ready yet ?
Jun 02 16:28:25 <Stskeeps> 'not ready yet'
Jun 02 16:28:34 <slaine> cooking though ?
Jun 02 16:28:41 <Stskeeps> it's honestly just a matter of building it with a hardfp toolchain
Jun 02 16:28:48 <Stskeeps> which makes the whole situation ridicolous :)
Jun 02 16:28:53 <slaine> wonder whats taking them so long so
Jun 02 16:29:08 <slaine> I assume you've contacted TI and asked ?
Jun 02 16:29:19 <DawnFoster> has anyone used quotefix for outlook http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/
Jun 02 16:29:28 <Stskeeps> i haven't personally, but if a customer asked them..
Jun 02 16:29:42 <DawnFoster> trying to work with people on corp email to be better ml posters
Jun 02 16:29:50 <slaine> Could Nokia ask ?
Jun 02 16:29:52 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: +1
Jun 02 16:29:55 <DawnFoster> I know some people are using it - curious if I should recommend it
Jun 02 16:30:06 <DawnFoster> (don't use outlook, so can't test myself)
Jun 02 16:30:07 <Stskeeps> slaine: we have sgx ddk so that's not a good conversation starter
Jun 02 16:30:31 <slaine> I don't know what that means
Jun 02 16:30:40 <Stskeeps> it means we have the sources to build
Jun 02 16:30:48 <Stskeeps> for our specific device
Jun 02 16:30:54 <slaine> but no license to build them for meego ?
Jun 02 16:31:07 <Stskeeps> we build them for n900 but they're not much useful outside omap34xx
Jun 02 16:31:18 <Stskeeps> as it's tied to the h
Jun 02 16:31:18 <Stskeeps> w
Jun 02 16:31:27 <Bostik> way cool, steelrat in the news :)
Jun 02 16:31:52 <slaine> So does the n900-de image have hardfp sgx blobs ?
Jun 02 16:32:07 <Stskeeps> right
Jun 02 16:32:45 <slaine> cool
Jun 02 16:32:58 <vgrade> for n900 :)
Jun 02 16:33:21 <Stskeeps> vgrade: it would work on other omap34xx too, it was just xorg stopping people at some point..
Jun 02 16:33:24 <Stskeeps> er, omap3
Jun 02 16:33:40 * SpeedEvil wonders about omap5
Jun 02 16:33:43 <SpeedEvil> err 4
Jun 02 16:33:48 <Stskeeps> omap4 is more difficult
Jun 02 16:33:51 * Stskeeps tries to make an image for his joggler
Jun 02 16:35:22 <vgrade> Stskeeps, I'm working with anab1s at the moment on the nokia netbook (gma500) we have a recent (0502) ivi image so far. Just building for netbook atm
Jun 02 16:35:32 <Stskeeps> cool
Jun 02 16:36:11 <vgrade> Stskeeps, IVI worked right from the ivi ks. EMGD and all
Jun 02 16:36:17 <Stskeeps> ok
Jun 02 16:36:40 <Stskeeps> i just hope i can get to some kind of development environment for futuristic stuff :P
Jun 02 16:36:46 <wmarone_> heh, so apparently Novomok fully ported MeeGo to the Nook Color
Jun 02 16:37:04 <Stskeeps> wmarone_: yeah, i'll have to poke them for describing their experiences
Jun 02 16:37:12 <Stskeeps> hey, less work for us ;)
Jun 02 16:37:17 <wmarone_> and kernel sources :)
Jun 02 16:37:19 <wmarone_> yeah
Jun 02 16:39:02 <Stskeeps> i still want to get wayland on that thing, should make a excellent target..
Jun 02 16:39:03 <Stskeeps> :P
Jun 02 16:40:17 <Stskeeps> wmarone_: if we have .35 or .37 it really should be piece of cake to reuse the n900 sgx hardfp blobs, btw
Jun 02 16:41:00 <wmarone_> Stskeeps: that was my reasoning behind targeting 2.6.37
Jun 02 16:41:01 <Stskeeps> and legally, too
Jun 02 16:47:26 <tripzero> is the nook meego available in the public?
Jun 02 16:47:57 <Stskeeps> i'll try to poke them about it tomorrow, it's a finnish holiday so
Jun 02 16:49:45 * tripzero cuts new settings release
Jun 02 16:51:33 <Stskeeps> is there a setting yet for rotating the launcher view, btw?
Jun 02 16:56:04 <gabrbedd> Stskeeps: you mean the appgrid?
Jun 02 16:56:07 <Stskeeps> yeah
Jun 02 16:56:09 <Stskeeps> ==launcher
Jun 02 16:57:20 <gabrbedd> There's a gconf setting to set the orientation... but I think it may have gotten broken when they added all the auto-rotate stuff.
Jun 02 16:57:31 <gabrbedd> ...but maybe it's fixed now...
Jun 02 17:00:41 <gabrbedd> Stskeeps: /meego/ux/PreferredPortraitOrientation
Jun 02 17:00:47 <gabrbedd> Stskeeps: and /meego/ux/PreferredPortraitOrientation
Jun 02 17:00:55 <Stskeeps> ah, cool
Jun 02 17:01:00 <gabrbedd> integers... 0-4
Jun 02 17:01:12 <gabrbedd> IIRC, 0 is the left-hand side of the screen.
Jun 02 17:01:43 <gabrbedd> erm... 0-3
Jun 02 17:01:46 <gabrbedd> :-)
Jun 02 17:05:35 <gabrbedd> yep, looks like it's still broken (or deprecated).  Can't override the accelerometer (whether you have one or not).
Jun 02 17:06:31 <akk> I usually see the opposite -- it does portrait even though the device is in landscape.
Jun 02 17:08:27 <gabrbedd> akk: i'm looking at meego-ux-daemon 0.2.11... what you describe sounds like 0.2.6-ish.
Jun 02 17:09:01 <akk> ah, maybe I haven't tried with the latest.
Jun 02 17:09:33 <gabrbedd> akk: in that version, the gconf settings will work.
Jun 02 17:11:06 * akk powers up to check, and watches the forever-blinky-cursor-before-boot
Jun 02 17:14:05 <qgil> hi, just a round of test: can you access https://meego.com without problems?
Jun 02 17:15:47 <SpeedEvil> I get a couple of second stall at the start.
Jun 02 17:15:53 <SpeedEvil> But it works fine
Jun 02 17:15:56 <gabrbedd> qgil: yes
Jun 02 17:16:10 <stonda> works for me
Jun 02 17:16:20 <SpeedEvil> (may be my connection = stall)
Jun 02 17:16:22 <akk> gabrbedd: yeah, it's 0.2.7. How do I change gconf settings?
Jun 02 17:16:35 <qgil> ok, then it's me  :)  My Chrome version gets an SSL error
Jun 02 17:16:41 <akk> (I guess zypper update isn't updating things like meego-ux-daemon)
Jun 02 17:17:00 <qgil> thanks!
Jun 02 17:17:08 <alterego> It's an android ploy!!
Jun 02 17:17:19 <gabrbedd> akk: change gconf settings with gconftool-2 (CLI)
Jun 02 17:17:28 <qgil> alterego: except there is no Chrome in Android?  ;)
Jun 02 17:17:30 <alterego> Works under microb too
Jun 02 17:17:49 <alterego> It's  meego tablet ux ploy!!
Jun 02 17:17:54 <berndhs> works here from linux :)
Jun 02 17:18:04 <gabrbedd> akk: To update with zypper, you have to add the newer repos.
Jun 02 17:18:45 <gabrbedd> akk: But buyer beware... some things don't update right.  (E.g. see the %post section of the .ks file where some libs get deleted post-install)
Jun 02 17:19:50 <tripzero> qgil, also, check ur date.  i've gotten ssl errors when my date is 1960 before
Jun 02 17:20:09 <tripzero> apparently chrome doesn't like ssl certs that are in the future
Jun 02 17:20:21 <qgil> tripzero: good point but seems to be correct. I'll clean sessions, cookies etc
Jun 02 17:20:23 <akk> gconftool-2 -g /meego/ux/PreferredPortraitOrientation says it isn't set. Is that a gconftool setting name?
Jun 02 17:21:28 <gabrbedd> akk: if it doesn't exist, m-u-d uses a default instead of setting one for you.
Jun 02 17:21:36 <tripzero> hmm
Jun 02 17:21:36 <gabrbedd> akk: if it does exist, it'll use your value.
Jun 02 17:22:04 <tripzero> seems like PreferredPortraitOrientation would make a good candidate for the hacks settings page...
Jun 02 17:23:17 <akk> I love how gconftool-2 --help-client tells you to use -s with --type but then doesn't tell you which --help-foo entry would describe how to use --type.
Jun 02 17:23:45 <gabrbedd> tripzero: ...except that I think m-u-d isn't utilizing it right now.  :-)
Jun 02 17:23:46 <akk> I think I'll just put up with turning my head sideways and wait for a newer version. :)
Jun 02 17:24:20 <gabrbedd> gconftool-2 -s -t integer /meego/ux/PreferredPortraitOrientation 1
Jun 02 17:24:23 <tripzero> oh. :(
Jun 02 17:24:27 <gabrbedd> (it might be -t int)
Jun 02 17:26:34 <akk> It accepts integer -- but I've tried 1, 2 and 3 and none of them change the orientation.
Jun 02 17:26:51 <akk> Have to reboot each time?
Jun 02 17:26:52 <gabrbedd> akk: nohup pkill uxlaunch
Jun 02 17:27:04 <SpeedEvil> akk: 90,270,180?
Jun 02 17:27:11 <gabrbedd> akk: that'll restart X... and thats when the settings will take effect.
Jun 02 17:28:05 <akk> haha -- that makes the lock screen use portrait mode, but the "all applications" still rotates to portrait right after I start it.
Jun 02 17:28:22 <akk> (I don't care what mode the lockscreen uses -- actually I wish I could get rid of it entirely)
Jun 02 17:28:46 <gabrbedd> akk: yeah, so it looks like your version doesn't honor the setting.  :-/
Jun 02 17:29:32 <akk> ah, there goes tracker-store again ... every time the fan goes crazy, that's what top shows
Jun 02 17:30:56 * lcuk visited the IntelRemastered exhibit
Jun 02 17:31:07 <lcuk> am calling back tomorrow to meetup with one of the meego guys
Jun 02 17:31:32 <lcuk> the main piece I wanted to see was not fully inplace so have an even better reason to return :)
Jun 02 17:31:49 <lcuk> DawnFoster, @IntelUK are getting better pictures tham me I think
Jun 02 17:31:53 * lcuk crap at photos
Jun 02 17:32:26 * lcuk might put the calendar on the wall in one place and see if people think it is an artpiece
Jun 02 17:34:59 <Stskeeps> ware1: so, how would you react if suddenly the OBS started supplying binaries to builds that doesn't seem to have any basis in the sources or binaries in the repository?
Jun 02 17:35:56 <Stskeeps> ware1: i'm seeing some really weird OBS behaviour right now, basically feeding rpm-4.9 for ARM where we really don't have rpm 4.9 in 1.2 at all
Jun 02 17:37:15 <ware1> Do you have more details?
Jun 02 17:37:20 <Stskeeps> yes, hang on
Jun 02 17:37:23 <ware1> Sure.
Jun 02 17:37:32 <Stskeeps> i really wonder if we're being hacked or it's just OBS acting stupid :)
Jun 02 17:37:50 <ware1> I'm sure either are very possible.  ;-)
Jun 02 17:38:00 <ware1> Community OBS or MeeGo OBS?
Jun 02 17:38:20 <Stskeeps> meego obs
Jun 02 17:39:08 <andyross> ... shouldn't OBS be pulling rpmbuild from the same repo it's building against?  Can that even be configured around?
Jun 02 17:40:48 <DawnFoster> Stskeeps: thanks
Jun 02 17:41:00 <DawnFoster> adam is looking to see if anything odd is going on
Jun 02 17:42:24 <Stskeeps> ware1: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1240994 , look at rpm-x86-arm package - http://build.meego.com/package/binaries?package=rpm-x86&project=MeeGo%3A1.2%3Aoss&repository=standard
Jun 02 17:42:30 <Stskeeps> that's for sure 4.8, not 4.9 :)
Jun 02 17:43:40 <lcuk> Jaffa, I have read today more about mismanagement and that the skunkworks plan is still continuing and rightly so.  a small team treading outside the bounds of current system and actually *trying* something is better than a stead drip drip drip of normal development.
Jun 02 17:44:03 <lcuk> iphone worked because a small test playground was created which literally hugged the features of the device it was intended for
Jun 02 17:44:13 <Stskeeps> ware1: same issue replicates within meego obs (look at 'failed' packages in MeeGo:1.2:oss) as well as downstream obs'es such as community obs
Jun 02 17:44:25 <lcuk> it has taken a long slog to see anything remotely reasonable on omap3 class hardware from the qt end
Jun 02 17:45:20 * RST38h sacrifices a hamster for meego success, smiles at lcuk
Jun 02 17:45:27 <lcuk> :D
Jun 02 17:45:34 <lcuk> lemmings are better
Jun 02 17:45:41 <lcuk> they have high scores and quotas
Jun 02 17:47:17 <RST38h> lcuk: I know you have abill_uk in mind...
Jun 02 17:47:23 <SpeedEvil> uAlso - you can press a button, and lemmings detonate.
Jun 02 17:47:24 <thiago_home> can't we just throw birds at pigs?
Jun 02 17:47:41 <RST38h> thiago: only if you do it in pure qtq
Jun 02 17:47:42 <lcuk> :D
Jun 02 17:47:56 <lcuk> lol RST38h
Jun 02 17:48:42 <lcuk> RST38h, did I read something about android emulators being taken from the market place?
Jun 02 17:48:56 <lcuk> are any of your thinamibobs up on android?
Jun 02 17:49:10 <thiago_home> why does the android marketplace require android emulators?
Jun 02 17:49:46 <lcuk> emulators running on android os*
Jun 02 17:49:54 <thiago_home> ah
Jun 02 17:50:00 <berndhs> game machine emulators I think
Jun 02 17:51:57 <RST38h> lcuk: some chinese dude porting open sourced emulators and charging money for them
Jun 02 17:52:15 <RST38h> lcuk: somehow, I can't feel sorry for him
Jun 02 17:52:33 <SpeedEvil> You like android? We put android in your android so you can DRM while you DRM.
Jun 02 17:52:42 <Stskeeps> ware1: one more tidbit, rpm-x86-arm-4.9.0 seems to exist in Trunk:Testing, so maybe it's just a OBS bug: http://build.meego.com/package/binaries?package=rpm-x86&project=Trunk%3ATesting&repository=standard
Jun 02 17:52:49 * RST38h installed Android SDK.
Jun 02 17:53:02 <lcuk> i did too
Jun 02 17:53:09 <Stskeeps> with that exact release number
Jun 02 17:53:21 <lcuk> but it was a bit odd and I couldn't get used to it
Jun 02 17:53:26 <lcuk> so I loaded up qt-creator instead
Jun 02 17:53:51 <thiago_home> RST38h: did you read the SDK's license agreement before accepting it?
Jun 02 17:54:01 <RST38h> thiago: Nah
Jun 02 17:54:22 <RST38h> thiago: Does it say that I grant Google unlimited rights to everything I compile with goddamn thing?
Jun 02 17:54:53 <ware1> Stskeeps: Just chatted with Auke and others.  We've been seeing some weird OBS behavior since yesterday.  Anas and Adam are looking into it.
Jun 02 17:55:11 <w00t> I think it grants them rights to rip off your ideas mercilessly, at least
Jun 02 17:55:24 <Stskeeps> ware1: ok, cool - i noticed it early this morning if you need a timeframe
Jun 02 17:55:29 <RST38h> The SDK itself pretty much serves as a good example of "cruel and/or unusual punishment". No idea WHY it is done this way. Although their device emulator is pretty neat, way better than anything Maemo or Symbian ever had.
Jun 02 17:55:35 <Stskeeps> ware1: feel free to prod me if i can help with anything from ARM pov
Jun 02 17:55:47 <lcuk> w00t, sad panda
Jun 02 17:57:09 <ware1> Stskeeps: Will do!
Jun 02 17:57:10 <anab1s> lcuk: I have a question about emgd-bin, could you help me please?
Jun 02 17:57:41 <lcuk> you can ask the question, but I know next to nothing about emgd
Jun 02 17:58:35 <anab1s> lcuk: ok, do you know of anyone (apart from vgrade) that does? I can't get through to him at the moment
Jun 02 17:59:11 <lcuk> just ask now
Jun 02 17:59:23 <lcuk> there are 464 other people here who might know
Jun 02 17:59:35 <anab1s> lcuk: ok
Jun 02 18:00:33 <anab1s> I've installed meego IVI, the emgd-bin package shows up as installed, however, I don't see the benefits: GUI is slow & screen resolution is slow. How do I fix this?
Jun 02 18:00:59 <Stskeeps> check xorg.0.log
Jun 02 18:01:10 <lcuk> anab1s, what screen resolution are you running at
Jun 02 18:01:24 <lcuk> because it is entirely feasible to overload any graphics card
Jun 02 18:01:37 <anab1s> lcuk: 1280X720
Jun 02 18:02:06 <gabrbedd> akk: BTW, in the more recent snapshots... if you don't have an accelerometer then everything stays landscape.
Jun 02 18:03:13 <anab1s> lcuk: it's a nokia booklet 3g
Jun 02 18:03:22 <lcuk> :D
Jun 02 18:03:40 <lcuk> anab1s, try reviewing the log as Stskeeps mentioned
Jun 02 18:04:18 <anab1s> lcuk: where can I find the log?
Jun 02 18:04:28 <lcuk> in the computer
Jun 02 18:05:02 <Stskeeps>  /var/log/Xorg.0.log
Jun 02 18:05:03 <anab1s> lcuk: lol, I know that, which directory? which file?
Jun 02 18:05:25 <anab1s> Stskeeps: thanks
Jun 02 18:05:32 <gabrbedd> I thought it was something like /tmp/Xorg.0.anab1s.log
Jun 02 18:11:07 * auke is back, anyone called me?
Jun 02 18:13:20 <Stskeeps> nop, just discussing OBS being moody
Jun 02 18:13:33 <Stskeeps> thanks for the systemd feedback btw
Jun 02 18:13:39 <ware1> Is there a time where OBS isn't moody?  ;-)
Jun 02 18:16:20 <pebcak> systemd *puke*
Jun 02 18:25:44 <ware1> systemd <3<3<3
Jun 02 18:25:56 <ware1> ;-)
Jun 02 18:29:34 <pebcak> lennart, is that you? :P
Jun 02 18:32:19 <gabrbedd> pebcak: If you haven't already... you should check out auke's talk on systemd at the conference.
Jun 02 18:32:34 <gabrbedd> (when the videos are posted, that is.)
Jun 02 18:33:06 <pebcak> gabrbedd I'm looking at systemd from a very different point of view....
Jun 02 18:34:41 <gabrbedd> pebcak: and that POV would be... ??
Jun 02 18:35:31 <pebcak> that of a systemadministrator who has to do some things systemd, pulseaudio, networkmanager and dbus do not likr
Jun 02 18:35:33 <pebcak> -e
Jun 02 18:35:46 <pebcak> ;)
Jun 02 18:35:50 <auke> Stskeeps: figured I'd cc you on that - might be useful to steer future submissions from being unreviewed
Jun 02 18:36:06 <auke> pebcak: we don't have NM in meego :D
Jun 02 18:36:10 <pebcak> (I'm oldschool using fvwm and all)
Jun 02 18:36:20 <pebcak> auke and I so wonder why *sarcasm*
Jun 02 18:36:22 <Stskeeps> auke: :nod:
Jun 02 18:36:40 <pebcak> you got connman
Jun 02 18:36:52 <auke> pebcak: you might like my devel:xfce tree then...
Jun 02 18:38:09 <gabrbedd> pebcak: I could see why systemd would be a pain on a server -- but it looks like a good solution for MeeGo.
Jun 02 18:38:30 <gabrbedd> ...or even a desktop.
Jun 02 18:45:52 <auke> the more services you have, the better systemd will be for you
Jun 02 18:47:24 <pebcak> gabrbedd yeah I think there somewhen will be  a big split
Jun 02 18:47:35 <pebcak> some distros solely focusing on the desktop users
Jun 02 18:48:03 <pebcak> and some distros for people like me.... with Xforwarding :P
Jun 02 18:48:14 <gabrbedd> auke: forgive me for being dense... but didn't you say that systemd is kind of... not very configurable?
Jun 02 18:48:24 * gabrbedd is not looking forward to the loss of xforwarding...
Jun 02 18:49:43 <auke> X forwarding will not be lost
Jun 02 18:49:49 <auke> you can run X11 on top of wayland
Jun 02 18:49:51 <auke> and so
Jun 02 18:50:00 <auke> sshd can just forward to X11 as normal
Jun 02 18:50:15 <thiago_home> just like Mac
Jun 02 18:50:32 <auke> we don't want it configurable
Jun 02 18:50:48 <auke> configurable means people drop something in and run off without making their service robust
Jun 02 18:51:30 <auke> or depend on horrible hacks to configure their service while the service themselves should be doing this when it's starting up anyway
Jun 02 18:51:56 <gabrbedd> ok on the X forwarding.  all the wayland talk makes it sound like X11's days are numbered.
Jun 02 18:52:56 <Stskeeps> if anything, 1.3 should be a learning experience in that area
Jun 02 18:52:58 <auke> TBH, x forwarding should be replaced with something more performant anyway
Jun 02 18:53:20 <auke> also, x forwarding is nice but what you want is to be able to see your remote desktop
Jun 02 18:53:27 <auke> x11 doesn't do that very well
Jun 02 18:53:32 <auke> and xvnc is a bad hack
Jun 02 18:53:43 <Stskeeps> rdp on winxp is really well-made in that area, at least
Jun 02 18:53:46 <berndhs> for many cases, you dont want to see the whole desktop, just 1 application
Jun 02 18:53:50 <gabrbedd> auke: so... on systemd it sounds like hacked-up services are being exposed right now.  Right?
Jun 02 18:54:15 <gabrbedd> I typically use X forwarding for a single app when debugging apps on MeeGo.
Jun 02 18:54:19 <auke> they're effectively disabled in Trunk, until they are converted to proper systemd unit files
Jun 02 18:54:35 <RST38h> Better tell me, has Qt got its own window manager already?
Jun 02 18:54:43 <Stskeeps> RST38h: sure, qt-compositor
Jun 02 18:54:54 <gabrbedd> auke: OK, that explains why an admin like pebcak wouldn't like it right now.  :-)
Jun 02 18:55:11 <auke> not true
Jun 02 18:55:15 <Stskeeps> RST38h: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/03/18/multi-process-lighthouse/
Jun 02 18:55:21 <RST38h> Stskeeps: With window borders, draggable titles, etc?
Jun 02 18:55:25 <auke> for meego, we chose to disable init.d compatibility on purpose
Jun 02 18:55:30 <pebcak> gabrbedd why would I run X11 on top on wayland when I can just run X11?
Jun 02 18:55:48 <thiago_home> the qt-compositor is just a framework for making compositors
Jun 02 18:55:49 <auke> in fc15, systemd has init.d compatibility enabled, thus he could just use that going forward
Jun 02 18:55:50 <pebcak> please explain that me
Jun 02 18:55:58 <thiago_home> it's useful for embedded customers of Qt
Jun 02 18:56:04 <thiago_home> those who want a replacement for QWS
Jun 02 18:56:16 <auke> pebcak: the x11 -> wayland transport does not introduce a performance loss
Jun 02 18:56:17 <thiago_home> MeeGo may or may not use the qt-compositor. It might just use a regular Wayland compositor.
Jun 02 18:56:25 <pebcak> auke in theory
Jun 02 18:56:26 <auke> other then maybe some memory overhead
Jun 02 18:56:44 <pebcak> and maybe I just don't want to run wayland, maybe I don't need wayland?
Jun 02 18:57:24 <pebcak> why introduce another layer?
Jun 02 18:57:37 <tripzero> doesn't wayland simplify the layers?
Jun 02 18:57:50 <auke> wayland takes out layers
Jun 02 18:57:57 <thiago_home> pebcak: you don't have a choice
Jun 02 18:58:01 <auke> ... for wayland compositors, that is
Jun 02 18:58:03 <thiago_home> you will run wayland as opposed to X11
Jun 02 18:58:12 <thiago_home> you'll need X11 only if you want to run legacy apps
Jun 02 18:58:25 <pebcak> thiago who says I don't have a choice?
Jun 02 18:58:33 <thiago_home> we do
Jun 02 18:58:44 <thiago_home> the people developing MeeGo: we're telling you that Wayland will not be optional.
Jun 02 18:58:59 <pebcak> thiago we'll see about that
Jun 02 18:59:00 <pebcak> :D
Jun 02 18:59:01 <RST38h> too bad
Jun 02 18:59:11 <auke> pebcak: you don't have a choice <jedi arm wave>
Jun 02 18:59:17 <RST38h> Will kill Meego on anything lacking 3D hardware or drivers
Jun 02 18:59:28 <thiago_home> RST38h: right.
Jun 02 18:59:32 <auke> win!
Jun 02 18:59:35 <tripzero> RST38h, does meego work on anything today lacking 3d hardware?
Jun 02 18:59:39 <thiago_home> unless you use software rendering, which is better than the current state
Jun 02 18:59:41 <RST38h> tripzero: yes
Jun 02 18:59:54 <thiago_home> MeeGo already requires OpenGL ES 2
Jun 02 19:00:01 <pebcak> tripzero explain to me, why I couldn't just package X and my apps?
Jun 02 19:00:01 * RST38h hopes there will be a usable option to use hw rendering
Jun 02 19:00:09 <thiago_home> so reequiring OpenGL ES 2 will not be a new ting
Jun 02 19:00:11 <RST38h> thiago: not really, parts of meego do
Jun 02 19:00:11 <pebcak> aeh thiago_home
Jun 02 19:00:28 <RST38h> s/hw/sw
Jun 02 19:00:45 <thiago_home> well, like I said, there are software rasterisers that emulate OpenGL ES and work better than the current stack we have
Jun 02 19:00:47 <tripzero> i don't know why you would use X11 moving forward...
Jun 02 19:00:53 <thiago_home> as proven by benchmarks
Jun 02 19:01:07 <Stskeeps> thiago_home: so llvmpipe works better than raster?
Jun 02 19:01:12 <thiago_home> yes
Jun 02 19:01:21 <thiago_home> 50% better when multithreading is enabled
Jun 02 19:01:24 <Stskeeps> i should try it out
Jun 02 19:01:25 <thiago_home> similar performance without
Jun 02 19:01:35 <pebcak> tripzero nah, thiago just said I don't have a choice... I think I have
Jun 02 19:01:36 <pebcak> :P
Jun 02 19:01:44 <thiago_home> pebcak: you can choose to stop using Linux
Jun 02 19:01:56 <Stskeeps> thiago_home: that does beg the question if a software rasteriser is good enough for meego compliance though ;)
Jun 02 19:02:17 <pebcak> thiago_home no, I can package netbeans from source, bet you I can package Xorg. ;)
Jun 02 19:02:18 <thiago_home> but I'm assuming that, if you're in this channel, we're under the precondition that you want to use MeeGo
Jun 02 19:02:34 <thiago_home> pebcak: but will apps run?
Jun 02 19:02:45 <w00t> it's not just a matter of packaging X
Jun 02 19:02:50 <pebcak> thiago the apps I use... sure
Jun 02 19:02:56 <pebcak> :)
Jun 02 19:03:01 * RST38h wonders if thiago will consider it a success when pebcak leaves #meego 
Jun 02 19:03:02 <w00t> you'll also need to alter Qt's packaging to talk to it, and whatever UX you want to use to talk to it
Jun 02 19:03:09 <thiago_home> including the apps that have been ported to use Wayland instead of X?
Jun 02 19:03:18 <thiago_home> and the apps that make use of OpenGL shaders?
Jun 02 19:03:25 <pebcak> RST38h nah, I won't, just to funny :P
Jun 02 19:03:39 <pebcak> thiago_home you don't get that there will be forks?
Jun 02 19:03:44 <thiago_home> Qt based apps should just run with a switch of a Lighthouse platform plugin
Jun 02 19:03:49 <thiago_home> pebcak: correct, I don't get
Jun 02 19:03:57 <thiago_home> why would people want to use an inferior solution?
Jun 02 19:04:21 <pebcak> because your superior product has various flaws for their kind of use?
Jun 02 19:04:22 <RST38h> because they have real life limitations forcing them into inferior solution?
Jun 02 19:04:24 <pebcak> :)
Jun 02 19:04:28 <RST38h> like cheap, less capable hardware?
Jun 02 19:04:39 <RST38h> or hardware that is not fully supported by drivers?
Jun 02 19:04:42 <thiago_home> RST38h: software rasteriser
Jun 02 19:04:46 * SpeedEvil is currently looking at an 8M linux box.
Jun 02 19:04:49 <thiago_home> do I have to tell you that for the third time?
Jun 02 19:04:56 <pebcak> oh joy
Jun 02 19:05:00 <thiago_home> pebcak: what are your problems with Wayland?
Jun 02 19:05:06 <RST38h> no, but I think you should give this option some more official love
Jun 02 19:05:20 <RST38h> rather than say "we require OpenGLES2"
Jun 02 19:05:26 <thiago_home> we required it, period
Jun 02 19:05:37 <thiago_home> no one with a device in mind and time to market has time to work on the software rasteriser
Jun 02 19:06:01 <pebcak> thiago_home it's not that it would  matter to you, because "you don't have a choice"
Jun 02 19:06:17 * RST38h sighs
Jun 02 19:06:22 <Stskeeps> cheesecake!
Jun 02 19:06:27 <tripzero> nom nom nom
Jun 02 19:06:28 <thiago_home> pebcak: MeeGo will use Wayland as a matter of reducing the layers from the application to the OpenGL hardware
Jun 02 19:06:29 <w00t> thiago_home: (and I'm not sure why you'd want to, when that software pipeline is faster than what exists now)
Jun 02 19:06:38 <pebcak> thiago_home It's not a problem for me when it comes to meego
Jun 02 19:06:51 <pebcak> it's more a problem for me when it comes to my job
Jun 02 19:06:53 <pebcak> ...
Jun 02 19:07:03 <thiago_home> what is your MeeGo-related job?
Jun 02 19:07:23 <pebcak> thiago_home moar
Jun 02 19:07:26 <RST38h> [According to new North Korean government research the happiest place on earth is China. And then North Korea, followed by Cuba, Venezuela and Iran.]
Jun 02 19:07:38 <tripzero> rofl
Jun 02 19:07:39 <gabrbedd> pebcak: well, please don't stir up crap on #meego if it isn't about meego. :-)
Jun 02 19:07:53 <pebcak> gabrbedd ...
Jun 02 19:08:06 <thiago_home> if you're developing MeeGo, you can make a change there
Jun 02 19:08:21 <thiago_home> if you're developing a MeeGo-based device, just make your HW provider give you GL drivers
Jun 02 19:08:28 <thiago_home> if you're making applications, you don't have to care
Jun 02 19:08:54 <thiago_home> if you're trying to port it to a 3rd-party device, invest some time in the mesa rasteriser that already works quite fine
Jun 02 19:09:09 <thiago_home> what did I forget?
Jun 02 19:09:17 <pebcak> thiago_home yeah, I get it, I don't have a choice
Jun 02 19:09:28 <pebcak> gabrbedd I'll shut up
Jun 02 19:09:38 <RST38h> thiago: You forgot "Use Android instead"
Jun 02 19:10:04 <pebcak> RST38h debian with e17 :D
Jun 02 19:10:15 <thiago_home> RST38h: no, I didn't. 21:01 < thiago_home> pebcak: you can choose to stop using Linux
Jun 02 19:10:34 <Stskeeps> even android seems to go towards requiring glesv2 these days :P
Jun 02 19:10:44 <thiago_home> I really expect most Linux distros to start switching to Wayland next year
Jun 02 19:13:36 <ShadowJK> "just make your HW provider give you GL drivers" <- let's get our torches, pitch-forks, pickup-trucks and shotguns and go make them :)
Jun 02 19:14:20 <thiago_home> ShadowJK: note the "if" part of that sentence
Jun 02 19:15:21 <RST38h> thiago: Let me give you a good example: Intel and PowerVR drivers =)
Jun 02 19:15:57 <thiago_home> yes, that's a good example
Jun 02 19:16:03 <thiago_home> if you can't get the drivers, rewrite them
Jun 02 19:16:25 <pebcak> "<thiago_home> just like Mac" maybe that's the problem, if I want a mac, I get a mac
Jun 02 19:16:30 <lcuk> open source codes around problems
Jun 02 19:17:11 <lcuk> thiago_home, problem with drivers is usually that the magic codes and apis for talking to the blackbox are not so easy to find
Jun 02 19:17:35 <thiago_home> lcuk: I know
Jun 02 19:17:43 <thiago_home> but mesa+llvmpipe works fine
Jun 02 19:19:38 <thiago_home> anyway, the point is that you cannot ask people making devices who do have access to good drivers to be held back by unsupported devices without drivers
Jun 02 19:21:12 <RST38h> thiago: And I am sure the hw maker will provide you with all the necessary datasheets to rewrite drivers?
Jun 02 19:21:47 * alterego just got a nice mini bluetooth/usb keyboard for his exo
Jun 02 19:21:54 <alterego> Works very nicely
Jun 02 19:22:04 <tripzero> alterego, u got bt to work on th eexo?
Jun 02 19:22:12 <tripzero> i find it rather flaky
Jun 02 19:22:23 <alterego> tripzero: I'm using ubuntu 11.04 :x
Jun 02 19:22:43 <tripzero> ...
Jun 02 19:22:45 <tripzero> :(
Jun 02 19:22:56 <alterego> Works really well :x
Jun 02 19:23:24 <tripzero> hmm, maybe driver support has improved in the 2.6.38 kernel
Jun 02 19:25:10 <thiago_home> RST38h: if I'm buying hundreds of thousands or millions of units, the HW vendor will give me drivers
Jun 02 19:25:56 <RST38h> Yea, right
Jun 02 19:26:08 <berndhs> and if you buy less, you're just a hobbyist
Jun 02 19:26:09 <RST38h> So simple, so logical... :)
Jun 02 19:26:32 <thiago_home> the point is: if I'm going to choose a platform from a vendor, I'll choose a vendor that will comply to my specs
Jun 02 19:26:36 <thiago_home> my specs include "OpenGL ES 2"
Jun 02 19:27:14 <thiago_home> if your specs are to make fruit juice, you don't buy toasters
Jun 02 19:27:40 <tripzero> mmm, toast
Jun 02 19:27:49 * tripzero hunts for food
Jun 02 19:28:01 * thiago_home will go for yoghurt in half an hour
Jun 02 19:28:04 <thiago_home> when the Sun sets
Jun 02 19:28:19 <tripzero> Greek yoghurt?
Jun 02 19:28:21 <berndhs> Sun always sets somewhere
Jun 02 19:28:46 <thiago_home> Oslo
Jun 02 19:31:01 <tripzero> in Oslo, the sun is always setting
Jun 02 19:31:05 <pebcak> tripzero the 1.2.0.90 images have 2.6.38 and I don't have working bluetooth
Jun 02 19:31:41 <tripzero> boo
Jun 02 19:31:43 <tripzero> :(
Jun 02 19:31:50 <tripzero> maybe ubuntu found a patch
Jun 02 19:33:23 <pebcak> it worked somewhen tough
Jun 02 19:34:41 <tripzero> yeh, same as now.  sometimes it works...
Jun 02 19:39:20 <Stskeeps> !$^#^
Jun 02 19:39:34 <Stskeeps> was fighting all evening with my joggler on why tablet UX looked really screwed up color wise
Jun 02 19:39:44 <Stskeeps> turned out i had my xorg using 16bpp instead of 24bpp
Jun 02 19:40:07 <tripzero> ahh
Jun 02 19:40:10 <tripzero> lols
Jun 02 19:40:40 <w00t> I've had that happen on my laptop a few times
Jun 02 19:43:07 <Stskeeps> now for the next fun step: how to use tablet ux on a device without hardware buttons
Jun 02 19:43:17 <Stskeeps> or for that matter, proximity sensor
Jun 02 19:43:53 <vgrade> Stskeeps, connect a kb :)
Jun 02 19:44:00 <Stskeeps> vgrade: not wife friendly
Jun 02 19:44:29 <vgrade> Stskeeps, same here
Jun 02 19:45:40 <lcuk> Stskeeps, I guess if you had a vibrating keyboard it might be more wife friendly
Jun 02 19:45:58 <Stskeeps> tripzero: think i'll hack in a button in the top bar menu for task switch
Jun 02 19:46:32 <gabrbedd> Stskeeps: how are you getting a top bar menu?
Jun 02 19:46:53 <Stskeeps> gabrbedd: status bar, tap it - the one with the clock
Jun 02 19:47:06 <tripzero> Stskeeps, the toolbar ?
Jun 02 19:47:20 <tripzero> ah, the status bar
Jun 02 19:47:41 <tripzero> ur going to add a task switcher initiator button?
Jun 02 19:47:43 <Stskeeps> yeah
Jun 02 19:47:50 <Stskeeps> i mean, no hw button, so
Jun 02 19:48:00 <tripzero> so here's an idea...
Jun 02 19:48:13 <lcuk> hey stskeeps, if you do get around to one button, there is also related bug 16611
Jun 02 19:48:15 <MeeGoBot> Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16611 nor, Undecided, ---, kevron_m_rees, NEW, Clicking on the clock in top right should send close action
Jun 02 19:48:17 <tripzero> we are talking about some cool changes in m-u-c
Jun 02 19:48:37 <tripzero> where you could create your own implamentation of Window
Jun 02 19:48:43 <tripzero> and pass in your own Toolbar
Jun 02 19:48:47 <lcuk> Mm-u-c ?
Jun 02 19:48:49 <tripzero> with say, a home and exit button
Jun 02 19:48:52 <gabrbedd> Stskeeps: I don't get a status bar when there's an app showing.
Jun 02 19:48:56 <tripzero> meego-ux-components
Jun 02 19:49:02 <Stskeeps> gabrbedd: odd, i do (on tablet ux)
Jun 02 19:49:09 * gabrbedd blinks
Jun 02 19:49:35 <Stskeeps> i'd take a photo of it but i'm fairly sure it would have me in the reflection, and no photo of me in shorts shall make it to the interweb
Jun 02 19:49:38 <Stskeeps> :P
Jun 02 19:49:44 <gabrbedd> :-)
Jun 02 19:49:49 <tripzero> it's still just being talked about, but it would allow people to take mux and use it better in say, ivi or handsets
Jun 02 19:50:21 <vgrade> Stskeeps, so you need a button. Android on the Joggler used gestures on the toolbar. left swipe back. right swipe home, down swipe menu
Jun 02 19:50:25 <gabrbedd> Maybe it's a recent change?  Maybe an mcompositor thing?
Jun 02 19:50:58 <lcuk> tripzero, so would the titlebar be universally installable and selectable from a control panel applet, or is this a per application style component you are thinking?
Jun 02 19:51:13 <lcuk> (if it is per app, that is already available with subclassing isn't it?)
Jun 02 19:51:19 <fiferboy> gabrbedd: I have had the statusbar in apps since the oldest 1.2 I tried
Jun 02 19:51:29 <tripzero> lcuk, more like a universal thing
Jun 02 19:51:31 <andyross> gabrbedd: you're talking about an X app, not a meego-qml-launcher thing, right?  Pretty sure mcompositor only knows how to grant a fullscreen window
Jun 02 19:51:47 <lcuk> gabrbedd, are the apps you are running native qml/qt or these the legacy ones which the window manager cannot handle
Jun 02 19:51:52 <Stskeeps> gabrbedd: ah.. i meant from MUC apps
Jun 02 19:51:58 <vgrade> Stskeeps, r/so/do
Jun 02 19:52:10 <lcuk> tripzero, so a QML_App omponent which has a titlebar etc?
Jun 02 19:52:17 <tripzero> and currently, subclassing window doesn't offer that kind of control.  but maybe could in the future
Jun 02 19:52:39 <lcuk> anything is possible in the future
Jun 02 19:52:49 <tripzero> the way I'd like it, is that part of the qml comes from the theme
Jun 02 19:52:51 <lcuk> stskeeps might infact get dressed and take a pic of the titlebar :P
Jun 02 19:53:04 <tripzero> so a theme could be installed that changes the entire look of the titlebar
Jun 02 19:53:14 <lcuk> of all the chrome
Jun 02 19:53:18 <Stskeeps> vgrade: gestures on toolbar should be possible too
Jun 02 19:53:24 <lcuk> I thought this sort of stuff was done?
Jun 02 19:53:33 <Stskeeps> vgrade: in fact sortof trivial
Jun 02 19:53:38 <gabrbedd> andyross: Stskeeps: Yeah, I'm talking about normal apps (Qt, Xlib, etc.) -- not MUC apps.
Jun 02 19:54:16 <tripzero> lcuk, sorry, you can change the look, but I'm talking about how it fundamentally interacts being themeable as well
Jun 02 19:54:24 <tripzero> of course, this is just me thinking out loud
Jun 02 19:54:25 <lcuk> QML + Wayland == no backwards compatability even with apps running today on 1.2?
Jun 02 19:54:26 <vgrade> Stskeeps, gestures worked great on android Joggler
Jun 02 19:55:19 <vgrade> Stskeeps, and don't take up any real estate
Jun 02 19:55:23 <Stskeeps> vgrade: +1
Jun 02 19:55:25 * Stskeeps likes
Jun 02 19:55:30 <tripzero> for example, someone could install meego-ux-components-window-ivi and that would make window more IVI friendly with toolbar, etc
Jun 02 19:55:51 <lcuk> tripzero, well if the titlebar component is a piece of chrome which sits in a vbox above the content, anything which happens in that frames code is down to that?
Jun 02 19:56:12 <vgrade> its not an androis thing per se, just what some dev used to work around not having any hw buttons
Jun 02 19:56:13 <lcuk> ie, your mention of theme and interaction is already second nature to it?
Jun 02 19:56:31 <lcuk> (I always imagine chrome as being the television frame with channel changer buttons
Jun 02 19:56:46 <gabrbedd> Stskeeps: there's also the mouse @ 0 thing that the Netbook does.  A painful gesture to master... but would work even with non-MUC apps.
Jun 02 19:56:48 <tripzero> oh, like an overlay?
Jun 02 19:57:01 <lcuk> tripzero, running the core app on a different ux should just adapt anyway
Jun 02 19:57:10 <lcuk> like today runnning same Qt app on maemo and symbian
Jun 02 19:57:16 <lcuk> the whole button locations move
Jun 02 19:57:24 <lcuk> and different rules about interaction etc
Jun 02 19:57:30 <pebcak> Stskeeps xwd
Jun 02 19:57:48 <lcuk> tripzero, the black and white tv screen is the content area
Jun 02 19:57:59 * lcuk imagined it like that since learning about visual objects
Jun 02 20:06:49 <tripzero> gotcha
Jun 02 20:38:35 <lcuk> whih film has best use of technology/computer input devices?
Jun 02 20:38:42 <lcuk> btw, excluding start trek and CSI
Jun 02 20:38:53 <lcuk> which film has best use of technology/computer input devices?
Jun 02 20:39:30 * andre__ votes for Ben Hur
Jun 02 20:39:36 <thiago_home> minority report was quite good
Jun 02 20:39:56 <RST38h> Obviously the Matrix
Jun 02 20:39:58 <RST38h> Come on...
Jun 02 20:40:17 <lcuk> tom cruise has gorilla arms!
Jun 02 20:40:40 <lcuk> RST38h, debatable, that may of course be good for hackers
Jun 02 20:40:52 <gabrbedd> i kinda liked "date night"
Jun 02 20:40:55 <dm8tbr> the matrix uses nmap at some point :)
Jun 02 20:41:04 <tripzero> hmm, an input device that connects up to my brain.  win!
Jun 02 20:41:38 <lcuk> would foot pedals at workspaces add anything viable to the UX?
Jun 02 20:41:39 <RST38h> Matrix has got direct brain plug *and* what looks like a rectal probe
Jun 02 20:41:52 <RST38h> There is no way you can beat that,no matter how hard you try
Jun 02 20:42:45 <dm8tbr> lcuk: for ivi :)
Jun 02 20:42:49 <lcuk> lol dm8tbr
Jun 02 20:43:04 <berndhs> IVI should turn off the movies during a crash
Jun 02 20:43:08 <lcuk> in workshops for most of the last century, sewing machines etc used foot pedals
Jun 02 20:43:30 <lcuk> berndhs, they need to rewind a little it
Jun 02 20:43:38 <lcuk> bit
Jun 02 20:43:43 * lcuk notes dodgy keyboard
Jun 02 20:44:03 <berndhs> Iyes they should assume that the viewer missed the last 12 seconds or so
Jun 02 20:44:55 <lcuk> they could use microphones inside the car
Jun 02 20:45:23 <berndhs> detect the screaming coinciding with the decelleration ?
Jun 02 20:45:31 <lcuk> how would you computerise the control/IVI on a *motorbike*
Jun 02 20:45:58 <berndhs> bikes are easy, headphones, project in helmet visor, play real loud
Jun 02 20:46:11 <lcuk> for one thing, I note a capacitive touchscreen input is not applicable
Jun 02 20:46:20 <berndhs> same for artillery-mounted IVI
Jun 02 20:46:31 <lcuk> and everything else on the bike is very firmly tactile
Jun 02 20:46:59 <RST38h> So, for heavy machine guns, do you use IVI or the Handset UX?
Jun 02 20:47:05 <RST38h> moo javispedro
Jun 02 20:47:27 <berndhs> if it has no wheels, but ahs handles, its a mobile
Jun 02 20:47:32 <lcuk> RST38h, I suppose if they are mounted on a vehicle or not
Jun 02 20:47:38 <RST38h> ah
Jun 02 20:47:45 <RST38h> logical
Jun 02 20:48:00 <lcuk> one of those big hip based ones from Aliens
Jun 02 20:48:04 <lcuk> would generally run the handset ux
Jun 02 20:48:17 <lcuk> (it would make correct "they are in the walls dude" noises
Jun 02 20:50:06 <lcuk> so back to the question: which is best fictional UX
Jun 02 20:50:06 <javispedro> hi RST38h
Jun 02 20:53:33 <lcuk> javispedro, tagging and grouping is addictive o_O
Jun 02 20:54:00 <javispedro> I bet
Jun 02 20:54:21 <javispedro> though its usefulness is to be studied :D
Jun 02 20:54:26 <javispedro> what are you tagging?
Jun 02 20:54:35 <lcuk> all 7000 sketches
Jun 02 20:55:13 <lcuk> nice uber big graffiti wall with every sketch in, dreamy kinetics and multitouch with awesome big easy hit tags
Jun 02 20:55:43 <javispedro> you have a screenshot with the big tags?
Jun 02 20:55:43 <lcuk> http://liqbase.net/liq.20110528_142619.liqrecentsketches_tagging.scr.png
Jun 02 20:55:47 <lcuk> like that ^
Jun 02 20:55:58 <lcuk> the tag cloud resulting is just a tag cloud, hold on
Jun 02 20:56:54 <lcuk> oh crap, it is not on the network
Jun 02 20:57:20 <javispedro> heh, hp to license webos.
Jun 02 20:57:45 <lcuk> bike, blank, brightness,calendar,car,cells,colour,fish,gary,guide,hello,house,icon,jacob,notag,practice,smile,spiral,star,tictactoe,time,train,ui,words,zoom so far
Jun 02 20:58:08 <RST38h> javispedro: are there any takers?
Jun 02 20:58:39 <javispedro> RST38h: not yet seemingly
Jun 02 21:00:10 <lcuk> javispedro, read this and spot the typo
Jun 02 21:00:11 <lcuk> http://twitter.com/hpnews/status/75998492677517312
Jun 02 21:01:07 <RST38h> Ehehe
Jun 02 21:01:16 <javispedro> I bet someone would like twitter to allow deleting twits at the moment =)
Jun 02 21:01:24 <lcuk> RST38h, rather changes the intent of the quote don't you think
Jun 02 21:01:43 <RST38h> it is a typo, nobody is going to merge with HP now
Jun 02 21:01:44 <lcuk> javispedro, they retweeted after I mentioned it back to them
Jun 02 21:02:23 <RST38h> Although the legend says that any company that eats a company that ate DEC will fail
Jun 02 21:03:16 <lcuk> grue
Jun 02 21:04:31 <lcuk> RST38h, I realised just today that I had been running the gesture recogniser against every stroke of every sketch I load up
Jun 02 21:04:35 <javispedro> is that a typo too, or are you saying hp is a grue? =)
Jun 02 21:04:48 <lcuk> that is a typo too
Jun 02 21:04:54 <lcuk> I meant to say "what a lovely evening"
Jun 02 21:05:01 <lcuk> the keys are close together
Jun 02 21:05:56 <javispedro> true
Jun 02 21:08:03 <lcukn900> hexagons. remember hexagons.
Jun 02 21:08:42 <RST38h> try not to notice the hexagons
Jun 02 21:09:02 <RST38h> just behave like they are not there
Jun 02 21:09:04 <lcuk> sorry wrong chan
Jun 02 21:09:32 <lcuk> infact, wrong network
Jun 02 21:15:31 <RST38h> <sleep>
Jun 02 21:15:51 <RST38h> Ok, install the bloody Fennec beta, make sure it is as slow as the last beta, then sleep.
Jun 02 21:16:10 <javispedro> RST38h: you still having optimism left?
Jun 02 21:18:19 * lcukn900 sheds some optimism
Jun 02 21:57:58 <lcuk> http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=22009#post22009
Jun 02 21:58:07 <lcuk> Re: Manchester UK MeeGo meet-up?
Jun 02 22:03:38 <SpeedEvil> Fun.
Jun 02 22:04:02 * SpeedEvil wishes he had easier transport.
Jun 02 22:31:12 <DawnFoster> Alison_Chaiken: ping
Jun 02 22:33:38 <Alison_Chaiken> Hey DawnFoster.
Jun 02 22:33:58 <DawnFoster> can you look at that bug again
Jun 02 22:34:05 <DawnFoster> I fixed your issue
Jun 02 22:34:14 <DawnFoster> but think I mangled your mailing list subscriptions
Jun 02 22:34:20 <DawnFoster> *sorry*
Jun 02 22:34:21 <DawnFoster> :)
Jun 02 22:34:42 <DawnFoster> You need to log back into your alison account (which now has your gmail)
Jun 02 22:34:52 <DawnFoster> and verify / fix your subscriptions
Jun 02 22:35:47 <Alison_Chaiken> No worries bout mailing lists.   I'll have a look later.    I appreciate your spending time on this tedious problem.    Sorry for spacing on the "edit" tab: d'oh!
Jun 02 22:38:54 <Alison_Chaiken> Just checked the account: login works fine.   Thanks again for your help!
Jun 02 22:41:02 <DawnFoster> happy to help!
Jun 02 22:54:58 <SpeedEvil> Is there a summary of the interesting announcements at computex?
Jun 02 22:55:05 <SpeedEvil> Or is it basically nothing.
Jun 02 22:55:40 <leinir> It's all the announcements people wanted at the meego conference, and a few extra to boot (not the ones which were expected there, just a bunch of other, interesting ones ;) )
Jun 02 22:55:57 <leinir> In particular i am pretty interested in Acer's tablet thing, that thing looks really pretty :)
Jun 02 22:57:34 <javispedro> announcements people wanted at the conf... if they had been about meego? ;P
Jun 02 22:59:00 <leinir> javispedro: device announcements ;)
Jun 02 22:59:18 <leinir> people were hoping on LG to show stuff, and Nokia to announce stuff... neither happened and people went all "waaah!" about it ;)
Jun 02 22:59:36 <leinir> of course, good things came out of that, in that there's a community movement to getting hardware to happen as well :)
Jun 02 23:00:08 <SpeedEvil> Meh.
Jun 02 23:00:11 <lcuk> it is not fun to show devices and have them underperform because the software stack is having trouble
Jun 02 23:00:12 * SpeedEvil hopes so.
Jun 02 23:00:34 <lcuk> leinir, thp created a new game whilst at the meego conf
Jun 02 23:00:41 <lcuk> ( along with some other folks )
Jun 02 23:01:13 <leinir> *nods* i saw that one, yeah, was pretty nifty :) multitouch pong type thing, yeah? :)
Jun 02 23:02:41 <lcuk> did he use the qt gaming thing that I cannot remember name of, or just from scratch?
Jun 02 23:02:54 <lcuk> (I think from scratch because he has another game (rabbit game))
Jun 02 23:04:18 <leinir> He used QML on its own, i believe - Gluon wasn't used for it :)
Jun 02 23:07:22 <lcuk> would gluon have made it easier?
Jun 02 23:07:41 <lcuk> and ta for reminding me the name
Jun 02 23:10:04 <leinir> Hmm... for this exact thing, no, i don't think so... the current components wouldn't be able to handle the multiple cursors, but it should be possible before the next beta :)
Jun 02 23:11:30 <lcuk> leinir, I note he tweeted about adding the extra game related stuff after returning from the conf
Jun 02 23:12:30 <lcuk> perhaps that is where gluon would excell - high scores menuing etc around the game, and then even with a native qml engine the rest of the game (chassis/shell/interior trim etc) could have come as standard gluon component set
Jun 02 23:13:12 <leinir> *nods* Well, it might've been nice if he'd worked to add the multi input stuff to GluonInput... but it was supposed to be a demo of exactly that functionality in QML - it was less of a game and more of a demo of the multitoucharea ;)
Jun 02 23:13:57 <lcuk> heh
Jun 02 23:14:16 <lcuk> the best features come from tests
Jun 02 23:14:22 <timeless> lcuk: does https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.135457363197760.34148.100002004927749 load for you?
Jun 02 23:14:34 <lcuk> no
Jun 02 23:14:36 <lcuk> and hiya \o
Jun 02 23:14:43 <lcuk> should I signup for facebook to try?
Jun 02 23:14:45 <timeless> hiya
Jun 02 23:14:51 <timeless> no
Jun 02 23:14:57 <timeless> i wouldn't want to force you to do that
Jun 02 23:15:05 <lcuk> heh
Jun 02 23:15:17 <lcuk> facebook will come with time
Jun 02 23:15:28 <javispedro> lcuk++
Jun 02 23:15:57 <SpeedEvil> I have a facebook account.
Jun 02 23:16:01 <timeless> try the link :)
Jun 02 23:16:09 <SpeedEvil> Of course - it's completely blank - and doesn't actually have my name on it.
Jun 02 23:16:21 <lcuk> timeless, this is one of the most simple but effective uses for liqbase: teaching jake how to read and to tell the time in one go:
Jun 02 23:16:24 <lcuk> http://liqbase.net/liq.20110531_223403.ciroclock_minutes_12h_time.scr.png
Jun 02 23:16:42 <lcuk> facebook thinks I am called bob
Jun 02 23:16:51 <lcuk> it sends me occasional emails
Jun 02 23:16:54 <timeless> cool
Jun 02 23:16:57 <timeless> lcuk; it could be worse
Jun 02 23:17:14 <lcuk> indeed
Jun 02 23:17:21 <lcuk> did you arrive in US already?
Jun 02 23:17:36 <timeless> I'm in Toronto
Jun 02 23:17:56 <timeless> for a while, timeless@gmail was an alternate email address for some black woman living in Ohio iirc
Jun 02 23:17:56 <lcuk> cool
Jun 02 23:18:09 <timeless> because facebook didn't validate alternate email addresses when you added them...
Jun 02 23:18:12 <timeless> facepalm
Jun 02 23:18:43 <SpeedEvil> As an aside.
Jun 02 23:18:49 <timeless> SpeedEvil: so it doesn't load?
Jun 02 23:18:59 <SpeedEvil> I'm impressed that facebook has OCR for pics
Jun 02 23:19:06 <SpeedEvil> yes, it loads
Jun 02 23:19:19 <timeless> oh, the ascii art is mine
Jun 02 23:19:23 <SpeedEvil> Ah.
Jun 02 23:19:25 <SpeedEvil> :)
Jun 02 23:19:55 <lcuk> bob joe is a personage on facebook
Jun 02 23:20:06 * lcuk ponders asking it to send me password
Jun 02 23:20:18 <timeless> SpeedEvil: anyway, please feel free to browse through that gallery
Jun 02 23:21:03 <SpeedEvil> timeless: It looks 'special'.
Jun 02 23:21:14 <SpeedEvil> Is this an actual released device?
Jun 02 23:21:22 <timeless> yes
Jun 02 23:21:38 <timeless> It's the n8, I'll add a slaes link or two to the main comment page
Jun 02 23:21:46 <timeless> s/lae/ale/
Jun 02 23:21:47 <infobot> timeless meant: It's the n8, I'll add a sales link or two to the main comment page
Jun 02 23:24:09 <lcuk> eep
Jun 02 23:24:17 <lcuk> where does facebook get friends from?
Jun 02 23:24:41 <SpeedEvil> Is it picking people you know?
Jun 02 23:25:00 <SpeedEvil> If you put in your real name, it can put in people who've tagged you
Jun 02 23:25:12 <timeless> lcuk: it does an *incredibly* good job of that
Jun 02 23:25:17 <SpeedEvil> It may also do similar browsing history
Jun 02 23:25:25 <lcuk> timeless, yeah
Jun 02 23:25:36 <timeless> i remember seeing facebook emails inviting me to join where it listed people i probably knew
Jun 02 23:25:43 <timeless> iirc i knew them all
Jun 02 23:25:51 <timeless> and they weren't necessarily people who the inviter knew
Jun 02 23:25:56 <timeless> and this was years ago
Jun 02 23:25:59 <timeless> (I joined this year)
Jun 02 23:26:08 <SpeedEvil> Skynet? Happened already.
Jun 02 23:26:14 <lcuk> I notice it offers hotmail,yahoo,other as the emails to search
Jun 02 23:26:22 <lcuk> do google and facebook not get on?
Jun 02 23:27:04 <lcuk> when did I leave school?
Jun 02 23:27:15 <SpeedEvil> 1996?
Jun 02 23:28:09 <timeless> google got annoyed at facebook swiping its data
Jun 02 23:28:11 * javispedro hits lcuk for registering
Jun 02 23:28:26 <timeless> but i'd imagine it still datamines google if you let it
Jun 02 23:28:55 <lcuk> lol
Jun 02 23:29:10 <timeless> I'm waiting for one friend pairing between myself and my sister
Jun 02 23:29:34 <timeless> once i do that, I'll have a connection between a CA.US friend network and my East Coast/Finland friend network
Jun 02 23:31:14 <lcuk> i best sleep
Jun 02 23:31:27 <lcuk> just having the account is enough for today
Jun 02 23:31:31 <timeless> https://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=67692068407
Jun 02 23:31:37 <timeless> is the app fwiw
Jun 02 23:31:39 <timeless> it's quite shiny
Jun 02 23:31:45 <timeless> speedevil: give it a spin :)
Jun 02 23:32:05 <timeless> minor warning, it will kill an IdeaPad if your network is as dense as DawnFoster's is
Jun 02 23:32:05 <lcuk> btw timeless I can see the content now
Jun 02 23:32:16 <DawnFoster> :)
Jun 02 23:32:33 <timeless> DawnFoster: did you try it on a better computer?
Jun 02 23:32:42 <DawnFoster> timeless:
Jun 02 23:32:45 <DawnFoster> oops
Jun 02 23:32:48 <DawnFoster> timeless: I did
Jun 02 23:33:08 <timeless> Oh, and I meant to ask you what your social network score was. there's a button at the top of the view, I can't remember what it's called
Jun 02 23:33:37 <DawnFoster> timeless: my dense portland network is the main portion with some subnetworks for family, open source people, intel and a past employer
Jun 02 23:33:56 <DawnFoster> didn't look at the score
Jun 02 23:34:33 <timeless> well, next time you get a chance, pull it up :)
Jun 02 23:36:43 <berndhs> if your social network score is low, does that mean your friends are useless?
Jun 02 23:36:52 <berndhs> and do you tell them that ?
Jun 02 23:38:06 <timeless> The app is well behaved in that it won't spam your wall unless you let it, and it doesn't really force you to.
Jun 02 23:40:33 <timeless> DawnFoster: at some point i think someone needs to arrange some lessons for Package owners
Jun 02 23:40:43 <timeless> the experiences i've had with bugs in bugs.meego is rather depressing
Jun 02 23:40:48 <timeless> (you can ask andre for pointers)
Jun 02 23:40:56 <DawnFoster> timeless: I know
Jun 02 23:41:03 <lcuk> facebook data mines from hotmail afaik
Jun 02 23:41:06 <DawnFoster> I've been talking to Andre and our QA team
Jun 02 23:41:08 <SpeedEvil> timeless: My popularity score is 0.
Jun 02 23:41:16 <DawnFoster> I have a call with the QA manager in China this evening
Jun 02 23:41:18 <lcuk> I see people I have not spoken to since msn days
Jun 02 23:41:40 <SpeedEvil> (it's a fake ID)
Jun 02 23:41:41 <timeless> So far it seems like people who need lessons are predominantly @intel
Jun 02 23:41:41 <DawnFoster> and we are sending someone over to provide some how to work in an open source project training in 3 weeks
Jun 02 23:41:55 <timeless> which means it should be possible to arrange some on site trainings
Jun 02 23:42:00 <SpeedEvil> timeless: Openmoko did this especially well.
Jun 02 23:42:03 <DawnFoster> timeless: done :)
Jun 02 23:42:08 <timeless> :)
Jun 02 23:42:16 <SpeedEvil> timeless: They appointed a open-source community manager that couldn't actually speak english.
Jun 02 23:42:32 <DawnFoster> training scheduled at our QA offices in China / Beijing and another one here in Oregon
Jun 02 23:42:48 <lcuk> DawnFoster, got to the IntelRemastered event today and the collection of items was still being setup, returning tomorrow for a mini meego meetup with @mja_fin to see interactive exhibit
Jun 02 23:42:55 <timeless> SpeedEvil: interesting choice. Any places I can go to see the results?
Jun 02 23:43:12 <lcuk> I also ponder whether if I put my calendar up on the wall it will be mistaken for a piece of art ;)
Jun 02 23:43:40 <timeless> SpeedEvil: fwiw, I'm 90 / Constellation of stars
Jun 02 23:43:51 <timeless> I'm assuming Dawn's score will be much higher
Jun 02 23:44:15 <DawnFoster> timeless: mine is 64 / solar system
Jun 02 23:44:24 <SpeedEvil> timeless: openmoko.com
Jun 02 23:44:32 <DawnFoster> honestly, I mostly use facebook to keep up with family
Jun 02 23:44:35 <SpeedEvil> And the complete lack of actual hardware.
Jun 02 23:44:43 <DawnFoster> and use twitter for everything else
Jun 02 23:45:04 <DawnFoster> I also actively prune and get rid of friends I don't really need on facebook
Jun 02 23:45:10 <timeless> I'm mostly trying to use facebook for family / friends, and hopefully to find people/things in toronto
Jun 02 23:45:27 <timeless> Facebook will also more or less automatically prune out friends you don't use
Jun 02 23:45:37 <timeless> it doesn't unfriend them, but it will ignore their content
Jun 02 23:46:08 <reed> http://blogs.ft.com/businessblog/2011/06/loss-making-groupon-defines-itself-as-profitable/
Jun 02 23:46:12 <timeless> there's a moveon.org guy who's on TV right now talking about it
Jun 02 23:46:14 <DawnFoster> I unfriend them :)
Jun 02 23:46:18 <reed> shoot, sorry, wrong channel
Jun 02 23:46:23 <timeless> Hi reed
Jun 02 23:46:37 <reed> hi timakima
Jun 02 23:46:39 <reed> hi timeless
Jun 02 23:46:46 <reed> what's wrong with me today :)
Jun 02 23:46:55 <reed> tired, I guess
Jun 02 23:47:49 <timeless> heh
Jun 02 23:48:12 <timeless> sorry i didn't meet up w/ you in SF
Jun 02 23:48:19 <timeless> i also missed a bunch of others in south bay
Jun 02 23:48:49 <timeless> but wow, your facebook settings are paranoid
Jun 02 23:49:03 <reed> timeless, facebook saves the addressbooks that people submit, so when you join with your email address it suggests you the people that had your email in their addressbook
Jun 02 23:49:12 <reed> and you feel welcome since the first second
Jun 02 23:49:33 <SpeedEvil> GEtting data off the net is hard.
Jun 02 23:49:39 <SpeedEvil> I got a new phone line.
Jun 02 23:49:45 <timeless> ah, so basically all of those people had submitted my email address
Jun 02 23:49:46 <SpeedEvil> Googling the number revealed 197 hits.
Jun 02 23:49:49 <timeless> so it knew them
Jun 02 23:49:50 <timeless> makes sense
Jun 02 23:49:55 <SpeedEvil> In various directories.
Jun 02 23:50:09 <SpeedEvil> After maybe 30 or 40 emails, that's down to 25
Jun 02 23:50:21 <timeless> speedevil: i got a 15 day sim in SFO
Jun 02 23:50:39 <timeless> the number had previously been used by someone who was being hounded by collections agencies
Jun 02 23:50:47 <SpeedEvil> Joy.
Jun 02 23:50:49 <timeless> so i got a bunch of calls from them at various annoying times
Jun 02 23:50:51 <timeless> indeed
Jun 02 23:50:56 <timeless> it was fun yelling at them
Jun 02 23:50:59 <timeless> idiots.
Jun 02 23:51:29 <timeless> i especially liked that they claimed not to have caller id
Jun 02 23:51:36 <timeless> "what's your phone number?"
Jun 02 23:51:45 <timeless> "how should I know. don't you have caller id?!"
Jun 02 23:51:58 <timeless> "this is a 15 day disposable sim that i just bought...."
Jun 02 23:52:41 <SpeedEvil> :)
Jun 02 23:59:56 * SpeedEvil is surprised the nokia n900 usage study is still going on.
Jun 03 00:03:06 <timeless> oh right, i should stop paying for the tv license
Jun 03 00:03:12 <timeless> speedevil: what's that?
Jun 03 00:03:20 <CosmoHill> night night
Jun 03 00:04:07 <SpeedEvil> timeless: It's a study where you give up info for cash.
Jun 03 00:04:30 <SpeedEvil> A app is installed on the n900 that tracks most user interaction.
Jun 03 00:04:41 <SpeedEvil> And sends back data every day.
Jun 03 00:04:53 <SpeedEvil> Including things like cell-tower, errors, ...
Jun 03 00:05:19 <SpeedEvil> Websites visited, ...
Jun 03 00:05:56 <SpeedEvil> IIRC 10 quid/3 months - I've just had the latest voucher from it.
Jun 03 00:06:13 <SpeedEvil> nokia/nielson
Jun 03 00:07:38 <timeless> lcuk: you should be able to shop for friends from my Maemo/MeeGo groups, and then from Andre + Quim's lists
Jun 03 00:08:05 <lcuk> yeah I will do most of the facebook stuff tomorrow with local network
Jun 03 00:08:11 <lcuk> rest of family are on there
Jun 03 00:08:31 * lcuk should put up some adverts for manchester developers to help with some things
Jun 03 00:08:58 <lcuk> qole already asked about the handwriting stuff, my recent twitter posts answer that
Jun 03 00:09:17 <lcuk> http://twitter.com/lcuk
Jun 03 00:16:25 <lcuk> timeless, if I had a way to sell preconfigured meego devices, I would have made rather a lot of sales recently
Jun 03 00:17:01 * lcuk noted iphone/ipad envy from many people :)
Jun 03 00:17:14 <timeless> lcuk: of your exopc?
Jun 03 00:17:22 <timeless> i did a couple of exopc-meego demos
Jun 03 00:17:30 <timeless> the first one was an absolute disaster
Jun 03 00:17:35 <lcuk> i have ideapad
Jun 03 00:17:44 <lcuk> te exopc has no keyboard and would need a stand etc
Jun 03 00:18:00 <lcuk> this is self standing and operates like wall based unit :)
Jun 03 00:18:01 <timeless> 1. i had let someone else mute the system sound when we watched a presentation on Presence (or some relative)
Jun 03 00:18:22 <lcuk> timeless, I just run liqbase stuff - no faff, simple, reliable, usable
Jun 03 00:18:22 <timeless> that meant that when we tried to watch youtube, there was no audio, and i didn't remember how to adjust the volume :(
Jun 03 00:18:36 <lcuk> yeah I saw your report
Jun 03 00:18:41 * lcuk does not try stuff like that 
Jun 03 00:18:44 <timeless> 2. i offered to test w/ media on a stick
Jun 03 00:18:53 <lcuk> because internet is always crap and never been reliable
Jun 03 00:18:58 <timeless> and well, that failed. the house had 2 pc's w/ ps/2 keyboards
Jun 03 00:19:07 <lcuk> yeah that made me giggle
Jun 03 00:19:10 <timeless> so i had no way to mount the stick
Jun 03 00:19:23 <lcuk> timeless, opening the ideapad and filling in calendar and stuff
Jun 03 00:19:24 <timeless> to be fair, that was documented in the packet they gave us
Jun 03 00:19:27 <timeless> and i read it
Jun 03 00:19:32 <lcuk> whilst sat at table in cafe
Jun 03 00:19:49 <lcuk> makes people bang into chairs behind as they crane to see
Jun 03 00:19:51 <timeless> does Bluetooth work on the ideapad?
Jun 03 00:19:56 <lcuk> never tried
Jun 03 00:19:59 <timeless> try
Jun 03 00:19:59 <lcuk> hold on
Jun 03 00:20:11 <lcuk> it says so
Jun 03 00:20:19 <timeless> that was the other downside. i had an n900 w/ bluemaemo, but since the exopc doesn't have a working bluetooth stack
Jun 03 00:20:20 <lcuk> but I dunno how I would know it works
Jun 03 00:20:30 <timeless> i couldn't use the n900 as a keyboard
Jun 03 00:20:39 <timeless> try pairing w/ an n900 :)
Jun 03 00:20:46 <timeless> (then try bluemaemo)
Jun 03 00:21:52 <lcuk> well I dunno where to configure the luetooth visibility from
Jun 03 00:21:53 <lcuk> so meh
Jun 03 00:21:58 <lcuk> b
Jun 03 00:23:02 <lcuk> anyway, bedtime for real now, will test bluetooth from n900-de tomorrow
Jun 03 01:03:51 <julienf> good evening
Jun 03 01:04:43 <julienf> hope everyone who was in SF managed to recover
Jun 03 01:04:54 <julienf> especially now that Acer anounced a device :D
Jun 03 01:05:29 <leinir> Hehe, for certain values of recover ;)
Jun 03 01:06:15 <Andy80> julienf: hi Julien!!!
Jun 03 01:06:16 <leinir> Yes, people /have/ been talking about the unfortunate timing of these two conferences - swap them around and the negativity at the meegoconf could've been avoided... but oh well, then we wouldn't have had that community hardware thing moving ahead, right? ;)
Jun 03 01:07:39 <SpeedEvil> What community hardware thing?
Jun 03 01:08:18 <leinir> SpeedEvil: the one people have been going around saying wink-wink-nudge-nudge about since the conference ;)
Jun 03 01:08:33 * gabrbedd winks a leinir
Jun 03 01:08:52 <gabrbedd> at
Jun 03 01:09:51 <julienf> leinir: it is still way to early to even call it a project. But it's moving forward... Not yet ready for primetime though..
Jun 03 01:10:38 <leinir> *nods* Oh absolutely :)
Jun 03 01:11:28 <SpeedEvil> I assume there is no channel or any public thingy for it?
Jun 03 01:11:42 <julienf> SpeedEvil: I've just been back on IRC, so not yet :D
Jun 03 01:12:08 <julienf> but right now, we're looking for someone from the community who's ACE at hardware adaptation
Jun 03 01:14:31 <SpeedEvil> julienf: Is this an actual funded project?
Jun 03 01:15:00 <SpeedEvil> You mean you have hardware - and you're looking for people to port to it?
Jun 03 01:17:10 <julienf> SpeedEvil: I can't speak much in public yet. We are working on something that's been driven by the community needs and that large companies can't provide.
Jun 03 01:17:51 <SpeedEvil> julienf: Are you meaning actual hardware design?
Jun 03 01:22:45 <berndhs> but it's not a rumor :P
Jun 03 01:24:57 <julienf> berndhs: what's not a rumor?
Jun 03 01:25:58 <berndhs> the thing you can't quite talk about
Jun 03 01:26:29 <gabrbedd> berndhs: we never found out if ash's rumor of a rumor was indeed a rumor or not. :-p
Jun 03 01:26:59 <julienf> gabrbedd: what did Ash say?
Jun 03 01:27:06 <berndhs> yeah he needs to get a move on that, current schedule for end of the world is October
Jun 03 01:27:23 <berndhs> Ash was very non-specific
Jun 03 01:29:41 <gabrbedd> julienf: @MeeGoExpertes Looks like more announcements to come soon. Won't say anything just in case I jinx it :-) #meego [13 hours ago]
Jun 03 01:31:03 <julienf> gabrbedd: cryptic.. Think I'll have to ask him what he means, but guess it's more connected to Nokia than anything else...
Jun 03 01:31:22 <berndhs> he'll probably deny everything
Jun 03 01:31:30 <gabrbedd> julienf: several of us gave him crap about spreading a rumor of a rumor.  :-)
Jun 03 01:32:06 <julienf> berndhs: I'll make him speak :D
Jun 03 01:32:25 <berndhs> yeah but then you'll keep it secret :)
Jun 03 01:32:42 <julienf> berndhs: hmm.. who knows ;)
Jun 03 01:33:15 <tonberry_> hi guys
Jun 03 01:35:18 <julienf> hey tonberry_
Jun 03 01:40:35 <tonberry_> sup, julienf
Jun 03 01:40:58 <julienf> nothing much
Jun 03 01:41:05 <julienf> looking at hardware platforms right now
Jun 03 01:41:20 <julienf> trying to buy couple of Pandaboards, but seems they're out of stock everywhere..
Jun 03 01:55:30 <gabrbedd> julienf: that's actually on the pandaboard FAQ.  They recommend that you go ahead and purchase it... since their vendors typically have them back-ordered.
Jun 03 01:56:59 <SpeedEvil> Also - you may not be able to buy omap4 easily for a product.
Jun 03 01:57:51 <SpeedEvil> Many OMAP parts are 'for high volume OEM or ODM use, and are not available through our distributor chain'
Jun 03 01:58:54 <tonberry_> what's OMAP btw?
Jun 03 01:59:41 <berndhs> tonberry_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_OMAP
Jun 03 01:59:44 <gabrbedd> SpeedEvil: Right... but you gotta start /somewhere/
Jun 03 02:00:04 <Ronksu> morning
Jun 03 02:00:56 <tonberry_> ic
Jun 03 02:01:06 <tonberry_> morning, Ronksu
Jun 03 02:01:47 <berndhs> not just IC, SoC :)
Jun 03 02:03:22 <tonberry_> thx berndhs =P
Jun 03 02:18:04 <tonberry_> http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/02/texas-instruments-announces-multi-core-1-8ghz-omap4470-arm-proc/
Jun 03 02:18:10 <tonberry_> thats the latest?
Jun 03 02:20:48 <gabrbedd> tonberry_: that's the future.
Jun 03 02:21:07 <gabrbedd> "...expected to hit the OEM and OED markets in the first half of 2012..."
Jun 03 02:21:47 <GeneralAntilles> The lead time on TI's chips makes me crazy.
Jun 03 02:21:50 <GeneralAntilles> "I WANT THAT NOW!"
Jun 03 02:27:22 <SpeedEvil> Note how far ahead intel announces stuff.
Jun 03 02:28:48 <tonberry_> way to go
Jun 03 02:35:24 <julienf> gabrbedd: that's good timeline
Jun 03 02:35:48 <julienf> gabrbedd: really need to understand better what Intel is up to... Aava is kinda dead right now...
Jun 03 02:41:24 <tonberry_> Intel is working close with meego right now
Jun 03 02:42:16 <gabrbedd> julienf: Looks like that's intel's timeline, too... http://news.yahoo.com/s/digitaltrends/20110517/tc_digitaltrends/intelsmartphonepushpostponedagain_1
Jun 03 02:42:30 <gabrbedd> props to Texrat for that link.
Jun 03 02:47:21 <julienf> gabrbedd: Intel is definitely in a difficult position, but I guess that makes them more committed to succeed
Jun 03 02:49:49 <GeneralAntilles> Intel's not in a difficult position.
Jun 03 02:50:12 <gabrbedd> julienf: it just sounded to me like they set priorities and made sure that they didn't screw up their bread-and-butter (server business).
Jun 03 02:50:21 <GeneralAntilles> Intel's OTC may be having trouble with MeeGo
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jun 03 02:59:57 2011