**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jun 10 02:59:57 2011
Jun 10 03:03:22 <sofar> currently uxlaunch decides what the session string is for autostart desktop files
Jun 10 03:03:36 <sofar> it's different for application desktop files
Jun 10 03:04:18 <sofar> I need to redesign this to be more flexible and generic for 1.3
Jun 10 03:04:58 <gabrbedd> Really?
Jun 10 03:05:11 <gabrbedd> I didn't expect that.  Do you know how it decides the string?
Jun 10 03:05:41 <sofar> it looks up the session executable in a table and determines what the session name is from there
Jun 10 03:05:49 <mikhas> where is that table?
Jun 10 03:06:01 * gabrbedd sudo zypper si uxlaunch
Jun 10 03:06:04 <sofar> hardcoded :)
Jun 10 03:06:12 <sofar> git clone uxlaunch ...
Jun 10 03:06:19 <mikhas> and if there's a table, then why have this red herring in the .desktop files of /etc/xdg/autostart services?
Jun 10 03:06:26 <gabrbedd> Wonder twin powers... ACTIVATE!
Jun 10 03:06:42 <sofar> which red herring?
Jun 10 03:06:54 <gabrbedd> mikhas: those aren't red herrings.
Jun 10 03:07:06 <sofar> like I said, it needs a redesign
Jun 10 03:07:06 <mikhas> enlighten me
Jun 10 03:07:08 <gabrbedd> Those are being matched against the master string set by uxlaunch.
Jun 10 03:07:20 <gabrbedd> If they match, the desktop file is activated.
Jun 10 03:07:37 <gabrbedd> If not... it's skipped over.
Jun 10 03:07:49 <gabrbedd> That way you can have services that run in netbook, but not handset.
Jun 10 03:07:55 <mikhas> yeah, got that
Jun 10 03:07:56 <sofar> exactly
Jun 10 03:08:12 <sofar> although some UX's are terrible and invade others like mad
Jun 10 03:08:28 <mikhas> but didn't we try to find out why meego-im-uiserver is *still* started on tablet UX, even though the .desktop file would say: "skip me please"
Jun 10 03:08:52 * gabrbedd is finding out...
Jun 10 03:08:55 <mikhas> ok, cool
Jun 10 03:09:11 <mikhas> thanks for that, appreciated
Jun 10 03:10:01 <sofar> mikhas: one of the things I intend to fix ferociously
Jun 10 03:10:13 <gabrbedd> mikhas: default is X-MEEGO-NB
Jun 10 03:10:22 <mikhas> sofar, DONT! there woudlnt be no Swype keyboard if you did =p
Jun 10 03:10:24 <gabrbedd> If using mcompositor X-MEEGO-HS
Jun 10 03:10:29 <mikhas> (j/k)
Jun 10 03:10:42 <gabrbedd> neskowin -> X-MUX
Jun 10 03:10:48 <gabrbedd> xfce -> XFCE
Jun 10 03:10:50 <gabrbedd> ...etc
Jun 10 03:11:10 <gabrbedd> So that explains why my im-uiserver didn't start... I'm not using mcompositor.
Jun 10 03:11:15 <mikhas> yeah
Jun 10 03:11:20 <sofar> yes
Jun 10 03:11:21 <mikhas> but man, that sounds like a bug to me
Jun 10 03:11:30 <sofar> one of the big pains of my hardcoded table
Jun 10 03:11:35 <mikhas> or is mcompositor on its way out, for MeeGo 1.3?
Jun 10 03:11:44 <sofar> also, the exact reason why I intend to fix this for 1.3 once and for all the right way
Jun 10 03:11:46 <gabrbedd> (Actually, I had a leftover .desktop file from the netbook days.... so it worked until I removed that "cruft")
Jun 10 03:11:53 <mikhas> interesting
Jun 10 03:12:11 <sofar> http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-os-base/uxlaunch/blobs/master/desktop.c#line257
Jun 10 03:12:15 <gabrbedd> But that .desktop file was our own special sauce. :-)
Jun 10 03:12:22 <mikhas> sofar, gabrbedd, do we have a bug for this?
Jun 10 03:12:42 <mikhas> now that you have so nicely explained it to me, without me having to look a single line of code :-)
Jun 10 03:12:59 <gabrbedd> Should the bug be against uxlaunch... or each fragile .desktop file?
Jun 10 03:13:18 <mikhas> mcompositor is really a bad session name, lol
Jun 10 03:13:20 <sofar> mikhas: there is no bug yet for that
Jun 10 03:14:53 <mikhas> sofar, you should report one against yourself, for making gabrbedd scratch his head and waste precious time he could have spent writing patches for me!
Jun 10 03:15:26 <sofar> mikhas: I should make you squirm a bit more :)
Jun 10 03:15:43 <gabrbedd> sofar: I noticed that "X-MEEGO" in a desktop file seems to be a positive match.  Is that by design?
Jun 10 03:16:26 <mikhas> I already am, but that's because of suppressing bodily functions for the last hour
Jun 10 03:16:43 <sofar> gabrbedd: depends on the uxlaunch version. old (pre-1.2) versions did have that I think
Jun 10 03:17:10 <gabrbedd> I was planning on filing bugs for 1.2 and 1.3.
Jun 10 03:17:24 <gabrbedd> ...to get X-MEEGO added to the desktop files.
Jun 10 03:17:41 <sofar> X-MEEGO is not anything anymore
Jun 10 03:18:04 <sofar> it certainly would be a bug
Jun 10 03:18:14 <gabrbedd> But it still (seems) to match... that's kind of what I was asking. :-)
Jun 10 03:18:58 <sofar> pastebin the desktop file
Jun 10 03:19:05 <sofar> and it's location on disk
Jun 10 03:22:17 <gabrbedd> sofar: Here's why X-MEEGO is a match:  http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-os-base/uxlaunch/blobs/master/desktop.c#line200
Jun 10 03:23:03 <sofar> pastebin the desktop file... please?
Jun 10 03:23:16 <sofar> also, what is your uxlaunch session configured as?
Jun 10 03:23:36 <gabrbedd> sofar: matchbox-window-manager
Jun 10 03:23:54 <sofar> can you just pastebin both files entirely? :)
Jun 10 03:27:05 <gabrbedd> sofar: sorry... I bastardized the file and am restoring it. :-)
Jun 10 03:28:55 <gabrbedd> sofar: http://pastie.org/2045953
Jun 10 03:32:35 <gabrbedd> Anyway, it looks like this expression is true:   !g_strstr_len("X-MEEGO", -1, "X-MEEGO-FOO")
Jun 10 03:44:43 <Jay_BEE> hi.
Jun 10 03:45:23 <gabrbedd> Jay_BEE: hi
Jun 10 03:46:15 <Jay_BEE> hi gabrbedd, i determined that the install was blocked by a known issue and I was able to resolve it by going to an earlier image
Jun 10 03:46:37 <gabrbedd> Jay_BEE: Sweet!
Jun 10 03:46:42 <gabrbedd> Life in the fast lane....
Jun 10 03:47:07 <mikhas> We need to innovate faster anyway
Jun 10 03:47:08 <mikhas> =p
Jun 10 03:47:18 <sofar> gabrbedd: hmmm strange, that would mean that "X-MEEGO" contains the entire string "X-MEEGO-FOO"
Jun 10 03:48:05 <gabrbedd> sofar: the docs say that it limits the length of the search to the length of the first param.
Jun 10 03:48:21 <sofar> of course, the whole way of parsing OnlyShowIn should explode the haystack into ';' delimited parts
Jun 10 03:48:50 <sofar> yeah, the whole thing is wrong to begin with
Jun 10 03:50:17 <gabrbedd> sofar: I'm thinking I should file a but against uxlaunch instead of each app with a .desktop file.  Agree?
Jun 10 03:50:25 <gabrbedd> s/but/bug/
Jun 10 03:50:25 <infobot> gabrbedd meant: sofar: I'm thinking I should file a bug against uxlaunch instead of each app with a .desktop file.  Agree?
Jun 10 03:50:26 <sofar> yes
Jun 10 03:50:36 * gabrbedd files bug
Jun 10 03:50:41 <sofar> yay, more bugs for me
Jun 10 03:59:52 <gabrbedd> sofar: mikhas: bug 18856
Jun 10 03:59:54 <MeeGoBot> Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18856 nor, Undecided, ---, peter.j.zhu, NEW, uxlaunch doesn't allow for the session string to be customized
Jun 10 04:00:18 <gabrbedd> Anybody know how to clone a bug for 1.3?
Jun 10 04:00:50 <gabrbedd> duh... the "clone this bug" link at the bottom...
Jun 10 04:01:01 <sofar> gabrbedd: don't
Jun 10 04:01:10 <sofar> gabrbedd: this will be a 1.3 fix only
Jun 10 04:01:17 <sofar> for 1.2, it's too much
Jun 10 04:02:55 <gabrbedd> sofar: too late.  I guess just reject 1.2 as invalid.
Jun 10 04:03:06 <gabrbedd> ...and I'll have to provide a hot-rodded version of uxlaunch or something.
Jun 10 04:03:23 <sofar> no
Jun 10 04:03:26 <sofar> don't reject it
Jun 10 04:03:30 <sofar> it's valid alright
Jun 10 04:03:35 <sofar> I'll mark it wontfix
Jun 10 04:04:26 <gabrbedd> I didn't say *I* was going to reject it. :-)
Jun 10 04:35:11 <gabrbedd> good night all!
Jun 10 04:41:07 <sofar>  desktop.c  |  107 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++----------
Jun 10 04:41:07 <sofar>  options.c  |    2 -
Jun 10 04:41:07 <sofar>  uxlaunch.c |    4 +-
Jun 10 04:41:07 <sofar>  3 files changed, 93 insertions(+), 20 deletions(-)
Jun 10 04:41:20 <mikhas> you fixed it!
Jun 10 04:41:24 <sofar> some progress, should be able to test this maybe this weekend
Jun 10 04:41:29 <sofar> it's not done yet
Jun 10 04:41:38 <sofar> need to implement `basename` in C somehow properly
Jun 10 04:41:50 <sofar> think I did that somewhere else once, so I gotta find that code
Jun 10 04:42:01 <sofar> also, it needs docs
Jun 10 04:42:14 * mikhas tends to forget that one needs to do everything from scratch in assembler macro
Jun 10 04:42:50 <mikhas> sofar, http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2009-April/msg00061.html
Jun 10 04:43:33 <mikhas> err wrong link, forget it
Jun 10 04:43:36 <sofar> lol
Jun 10 04:43:46 <sofar> funny post though
Jun 10 04:44:01 <sofar> `basename` is hard to do
Jun 10 04:44:24 <sofar> since you can have a folder or file with '/' as character in the name
Jun 10 04:44:44 <mikhas> how about http://developer.gnome.org/gio/unstable/GFile.html#g-file-get-basename
Jun 10 04:45:07 <sofar> yup, that will do
Jun 10 04:45:19 <sofar> not all I need, but it'll help
Jun 10 04:48:19 <sofar> ahh no, fail
Jun 10 04:48:27 <sofar> it uses a GFile*
Jun 10 04:49:43 <mikhas> well, but the sources will contain the droids you've been looking for
Jun 10 04:50:18 <sofar> eh, I already have a version somehwere, just need to dig it up :)
Jun 10 04:50:38 <mikhas> :-)
Jun 10 04:52:00 <sofar> if only I could figure out where... lol
Jun 10 04:52:24 <mikhas> (GFile is easily constructed though for a generic path-like string, see g_file_parse_name)
Jun 10 04:54:12 <iekku> good morning
Jun 10 05:00:49 * andyross wakes up.  sofar: no, you can't have a '/' in the name.  The character is illegal per all known specs, and obviously would break kernel parsing of path strings.
Jun 10 05:01:48 <sofar> hmmm
Jun 10 05:02:31 <sofar> doesn't surprise me, but, I never was bold enough to find that out :)
Jun 10 05:05:49 <SpeedEvil>  / and NUL
Jun 10 05:05:53 <SpeedEvil> are forbidden
Jun 10 05:06:01 <SpeedEvil> at least under unix.
Jun 10 05:06:18 <andyross> Right, for the same reason.  The point being that the kernel has to parse the path unambiguously, so you can't have a directory named "A" and a file named "A/B" (or "A\000B") in the same superdirectory.
Jun 10 05:06:41 <andyross> Windows too, btw.  Little known trivia is that win32 (and DOS before it) accepts "/" as a directory separator.
Jun 10 05:07:37 <andyross> I guess now someone has to look up how robust that checking is: if you byte-edit a filesystem to stuff illegal characters in, can you break anything?
Jun 10 05:08:02 <sofar> derp
Jun 10 05:08:29 <sofar> if you can't, that would not look good on your resume.
Jun 10 05:09:14 * sofar stuffs BELL in everything
Jun 10 05:10:40 <sofar> well anyway, I just wrote the basename() implementation from hell
Jun 10 05:10:47 <sofar> should suffice for uxlaunch ;)
Jun 10 05:10:58 <SpeedEvil>  / in pathnames is an annoyance.
Jun 10 05:11:05 <SpeedEvil> You'd need to stat the tree
Jun 10 05:11:28 <SpeedEvil> actually - no - you can't do it as directory "foo/bar" can't be disambiguated from "foo"/"bar"
Jun 10 05:11:49 <andyross> Exactly.  If the only interface to the kernel was traversing dirent, it would work.  But open() takes a path and parses it.
Jun 10 05:24:30 <Alison_Chaiken> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-20070260-92/report-nokia-cto-on-the-outs-in-strategy-spat/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20
Jun 10 05:25:05 <Alison_Chaiken> "Green's conflict with his employer stems to some degree from Nokia's decision to jettison its MeeGo operating system"
Jun 10 05:26:52 <sofar> hmm, I wonder if I can somehow tap execvp to test whether a binary actually exists before calling it....
Jun 10 05:27:43 <npm> today's upgrade of tablet ux is quite responsive
Jun 10 05:27:57 <rohanpm> sofar: why?
Jun 10 05:28:30 <sofar> fallback support, and, wondering in general how the PATH is resolved to an executable
Jun 10 05:28:55 <Jay_BEE> gn
Jun 10 05:30:13 <sofar> http://koala.cs.pub.ro/lxr/#glibc/posix/execvp.c nasty... :)
Jun 10 05:36:45 <sofar> well now, I think I'm done with this code
Jun 10 05:37:00 <sofar> $ ./uxlaunch -v -- XBMC
Jun 10 05:37:00 <sofar> [00.000172] [7023] uxlaunch v0.61 started.
Jun 10 05:37:00 <sofar> [00.000215] [7023] user "sofar", tty #7, session "XBMC"
Jun 10 05:37:00 <sofar> [00.000576] [7023] session="XBMC"
Jun 10 05:37:00 <sofar> [00.000618] [7023] session_filter="XBMC"
Jun 10 05:37:01 <sofar> [00.000645] [7023] session_exec="xbmc-standalone"
Jun 10 05:41:59 <htangMeego> hi, I installed Meego sdk 1.1, and with qtcreator 2.01, when deploy my application to netbook, it says "deplyment failed: could not open file app-0.0.1-1.i586.rpm"; but my generated file is app-0.1.0-3.rpm
Jun 10 05:44:54 <htangMeego> please help me, does someone knows?
Jun 10 05:45:14 <npm> sofar: what's "./uxlaunch -v -- XBMC" do? (as opposed to just launching xbmc normally)
Jun 10 05:45:41 <sofar> before my patch, it will execute the first `XBMC` binary it can find
Jun 10 05:46:02 <sofar> after my patch, it will read xsession files and retreive the Exec= lines from them
Jun 10 05:46:19 <npm> so is that the way you're supposed to launch normal programs in tablet ux?
Jun 10 05:46:24 <sofar> i.e. it goes and finds XBMC.desktop in /usr/share/xsessions/ or /etc/X11/dm/sessions/
Jun 10 05:46:36 <sofar> no, it's how to launch the entire session
Jun 10 05:46:40 <sofar> not just 1 app
Jun 10 05:47:05 <npm> oh i see.
Jun 10 05:47:26 <sofar> the new code will make it more configurable for alternate desktops and compositors
Jun 10 05:47:32 <sofar> which is needed for wayland and others
Jun 10 05:47:33 <npm> that's what confused me, since i just edited my uxlaunch file when i noticed an rpmnew show up
Jun 10 05:47:58 <sofar> I'm trying to make the /etc/sysconfig/uxlaunch file completely obsolete
Jun 10 05:48:32 <npm> fine by me :-) it seemed like an odd way to do things
Jun 10 05:49:00 <sofar> it's not
Jun 10 05:49:19 <sofar> it will allow anyone to drop a file in /usr/share/xsessions and then it will work in uxlaunch
Jun 10 05:49:37 <sofar> including NotShowIn and OnlyShowIn stuff in xdg/autostart desktop files
Jun 10 05:49:49 <sofar> that's the whole catch - that still needs to work properly for custom sessions
Jun 10 05:51:03 <npm> cool... just noticed my fedora desktop has /usr/share/xsessions/XBMC.desktop
Jun 10 05:51:25 <sofar> yup, alterior motive is to make xbmc easier to integrate as well
Jun 10 05:51:38 <sofar> npm: you'll be able to do this:
Jun 10 05:51:51 <sofar> ln -s /usr/share/xsessions/xfce.desktop ~/.config/xsessions/default.desktop
Jun 10 05:52:05 <sofar> and now your desktop session is a personal configuration choice
Jun 10 05:52:29 <npm> that's what i meant by odd way to do things... the way uxlaunch goes now, versus /usr/share/xsessions/ on fedora/etc
Jun 10 05:52:51 <sofar> it was a TODO since the start of uxlaunch
Jun 10 05:52:55 <sofar> I just never got to writing that code
Jun 10 05:53:07 <npm> so anything that converges w/ mainline distros makes me happy :-)
Jun 10 05:53:28 <npm> although sometimes the mainline distros converge with meego (btrfs on fedora 16)
Jun 10 06:01:56 <sofar> mikhas: I'm off to bed, if you want, I pushed the prototype upstream -> test?
Jun 10 06:02:05 <sofar> To git@gitorious.org:meego-os-base/uxlaunch.git
Jun 10 06:02:05 <sofar>    5432877..62c44b9  master -> master
Jun 10 06:02:08 * sofar goes to bed
Jun 10 06:12:51 <mikhas> ok
Jun 10 07:29:42 <bkalinga> i use madde and qemu  for my MeeGo application developement activities
Jun 10 07:30:02 <bkalinga> how can i install spectacle on my Ubuntu 10.04 machine
Jun 10 07:30:09 <bkalinga> to create .spec files
Jun 10 07:35:48 <mikhas> bkalinga, AFAIK it's only a perl script
Jun 10 07:35:56 <mikhas> no "installation" required
Jun 10 07:36:47 <bkalinga> mikhas: i am running into a problem while using    TEMPLATE = subdirs CONFIG  += ordered
Jun 10 07:37:18 <bkalinga> because that outer folder  spec file does not create the  package correctly
Jun 10 07:37:42 <bkalinga> subdirs has the there inividual .spec files
Jun 10 07:38:22 <bkalinga> they are creating their own rrpmbuild folders but not getting merged to create the final package
Jun 10 08:01:19 <summel> hmm when trying to flash meego i only get a "ifconfig: interface usb0 does not exist"
Jun 10 08:01:25 <summel> (im on mac os)
Jun 10 08:04:29 <summel> oh and not only that... now the device does not turn on anymore -_-
Jun 10 08:04:33 <summel> \o/
Jun 10 08:07:58 <dm8tbr> what are you trying?
Jun 10 08:08:10 <dm8tbr> and which device is it?
Jun 10 08:09:11 <summel> n900
Jun 10 08:09:15 <summel> i was trying to flash meego
Jun 10 08:09:19 <summel> obviously it didnt work
Jun 10 08:09:21 <summel> -_-
Jun 10 08:11:51 <dm8tbr> you don't flash meego on an n9pp
Jun 10 08:12:14 <dm8tbr> you just dd an image to an muSD card
Jun 10 08:14:03 <dm8tbr> see the meego wiki for details
Jun 10 08:23:10 <summel> no
Jun 10 08:23:44 <summel> http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/EMMC
Jun 10 08:23:47 <summel> i tried that
Jun 10 08:23:55 <summel> i dont have an sd card
Jun 10 08:25:53 <summel> hmm
Jun 10 08:26:06 <summel> now it turns itself on when i insert the battery
Jun 10 08:26:10 <summel> but it does not boot
Jun 10 08:26:27 <summel> and flasher stays at Suitable USB device not found, waiting. forever :S
Jun 10 08:35:49 <summel> \o/ it tried to flash again
Jun 10 08:35:55 <summel> but now im stuck at ifconfig: interface usb0 does not exist
Jun 10 08:35:56 <summel>  again
Jun 10 08:35:58 <summel> :S
Jun 10 08:37:15 <jsv> summel: i think the installer relies on linux-style usb networking (timoph: ping ^)
Jun 10 08:37:40 <summel> -_- then why are there instructions for mac os if it doesnt work there anyways? :S
Jun 10 08:54:13 <bkalinga> how to specify "instroot" path in meego-sdk-qtcreator?
Jun 10 09:28:46 <lcuk> morning \o
Jun 10 09:30:07 <lcuk> >acceptance -> testing
Jun 10 09:30:07 <lcuk> >sanity -> stable
Jun 10 09:35:19 <summel> \o/ ty lcuk
Jun 10 09:39:14 <lcuk> w00t, you mentioned yesterday about something for importing contacts
Jun 10 09:39:26 <lcuk> would the sync thing you did be somewhat useful for this purpose
Jun 10 09:39:39 <lcuk> can it be used on the command line to import all .vcf files in a folder?
Jun 10 09:40:10 * lcuk has a folder full of contacts (and all the collabora ones have photos too)
Jun 10 09:40:33 <lcuk> we can get the n900-de a little closer to normal use by importing these on firstboot
Jun 10 09:41:27 <lardman> morning
Jun 10 09:43:18 <lcuk> morning simon \o
Jun 10 09:47:10 <lardman> hi lcuk
Jun 10 09:47:40 <summel> hm i still have the problem "flashing done
Jun 10 09:47:40 <summel> ifconfig: interface usb0 does not exist"
Jun 10 09:47:54 <summel> :S mac os insists that the n900 is a modem and nothing else :/
Jun 10 09:51:42 <lardman> where are you doing ifconfig?
Jun 10 09:52:44 <summel> i dont. it is not in the instructions :o
Jun 10 09:52:56 <lardman> you typed it above though
Jun 10 09:53:17 <summel> it is the output of the installer script
Jun 10 09:53:18 <summel> http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/EMMC
Jun 10 09:53:36 <lardman> ah I see
Jun 10 09:54:20 <lardman> hmm, no idea, though you might try looking at the script to see what it tries to do
Jun 10 09:54:28 <summel>  ifconfig usb0 192.168.2.14 up
Jun 10 09:54:29 <lardman> presumably flasher works for you?
Jun 10 09:54:34 <summel> it seems so
Jun 10 09:54:38 <summel> but im on mac os
Jun 10 09:54:43 <summel> and there is no usb0 interface
Jun 10 09:54:52 <summel> and i have not a single clue about usb networking
Jun 10 09:55:01 <lardman> you usually need a kernel module to enable gadget ethernet
Jun 10 09:55:04 <summel> mac os just keeps insisting that the n900 is a usb modem :S
Jun 10 09:55:21 <lardman> has it been flashed or still running Maemo?
Jun 10 09:55:34 <summel> it did some things and i can still boot into maemo :o
Jun 10 09:55:56 <summel> first i thought it was bricked but only the battery was empty :S
Jun 10 09:56:11 <lardman> hard to know - perhaps max os thinks that the pid/vid of the N900 is a usb modem?
Jun 10 09:56:20 <lardman> s/max/mac
Jun 10 09:56:24 <summel> ohhh
Jun 10 09:56:25 <summel> wait
Jun 10 09:56:53 <summel> it also prints a "./n900-de-emmc-installer.sh: line 191: pidof: command not found"
Jun 10 09:56:54 <summel> :o
Jun 10 09:57:31 <summel> well i will try more stuff on monday :D
Jun 10 09:57:41 <summel> have to pick up a freind at the train station now :o
Jun 10 09:57:53 <lardman> pidof is probably used to kill something
Jun 10 09:58:08 <lardman> or rather used to find the pid so something can be killed
Jun 10 10:20:40 * lardman starts writing a Qt app to be deployed on Windows and Linux
Jun 10 10:21:01 <lardman> anyone got any tips? Other than making Qt Creator not change the line endings I guess
Jun 10 10:21:59 <lcuk> lardman, use simplest components possible
Jun 10 10:22:06 <lcuk> and try where practical to use the qt apis
Jun 10 10:22:18 <lardman> I need plotting components
Jun 10 10:22:20 <CosmoHill> I'm watching real rescues and they're showing a flipped car rescure demo
Jun 10 10:22:20 <lcuk> rather than using linuxism or windowsisms
Jun 10 10:22:28 <CosmoHill> it's the same car I have ;o
Jun 10 10:22:28 <lardman> ah ok, yeah am going to use all Qt where I can
Jun 10 10:22:30 <lcuk> (like hardcoding "C:/Program files.."
Jun 10 10:22:53 <lardman> that will have to be done with either an api call for the home dir and/or some #ifdefs I guess
Jun 10 10:23:40 <CosmoHill> lardman: #ifdef WIN32 iirc
Jun 10 10:24:36 <lardman> I thought there was something with a Q in it?
Jun 10 10:24:50 <lardman> I'll find it anyway, but thanks
Jun 10 10:25:09 <lcuk> lardman, Q_WS_* rings a bell
Jun 10 10:25:16 <lcuk> for the windowing system
Jun 10 10:25:25 <w00t> QDesktopServices will allow you to get certain user directories
Jun 10 10:25:26 <lcuk> but one person who knows much: Venemo
Jun 10 10:25:45 <w00t> (http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/qdesktopservices.html#storageLocation)
Jun 10 10:25:48 <Venemo> hey
Jun 10 10:25:49 <lardman> cool, I'll bug him about it then ;)
Jun 10 10:26:00 <Venemo> lardman, sorry I'm late to this conversation, what is your question?
Jun 10 10:26:21 <lardman> Venemo: nothing specific, was just asking about writing an app for both Windows and Linux and any points to bear in mind
Jun 10 10:26:51 <MohammadAG> lardman, re home path, QDir::homePath()
Jun 10 10:27:03 <lardman> thanks MohammadAG
Jun 10 10:27:05 <xoan_> Hello, does someone know some testcase application to meego???
Jun 10 10:27:12 <Venemo> lardman, well, as long as you either use only Qt (and not other libs), or you #ifdef out the platform-specific calls, you will be okay
Jun 10 10:27:25 * lardman wonders how one finds out the My Documents/Documents path?
Jun 10 10:27:54 <lardman> assuming homePath() would give me e.g. c:\Users\enpsgp\
Jun 10 10:28:05 <lardman> ah that's another one, path separators
Jun 10 10:28:42 <Venemo> lardman, that is QDesktopServices::storageLocation(QDesktopServices::DocumentsLocation)
Jun 10 10:28:50 <Venemo> lardman, read w00t's link
Jun 10 10:29:03 <MohammadAG> lardman, use /, it works on Windows somehow
Jun 10 10:29:25 <lardman> Venemo, w00t: missed that one, thanks
Jun 10 10:29:38 <lardman> MohammadAG: because they realise they are wrong and need to conform?
Jun 10 10:30:39 <MohammadAG> lardman, maybe :p
Jun 10 10:30:47 <lardman> ;)
Jun 10 10:31:10 <MohammadAG> just keep in mind to windows file.txt = File.txt, you'll probably end up overwriting the file if you expect those to be different
Jun 10 10:31:20 <MohammadAG> anyway, this is off topic imo :p
Jun 10 10:31:38 <lardman> yeah sorry
Jun 10 10:33:01 <Venemo> lardman, I use many native libs in my app, for example for Maemo 5 and Symbian. the key to this is to use #ifdef to determine which platform you are compiling for.
Jun 10 10:33:25 <lardman> yep, I do that currently for Maemo vs desktop Linux
Jun 10 10:39:15 <mikhas> Venemo, so basically the 5-apps-in-1 approach?
Jun 10 10:39:17 <mikhas> ;-)
Jun 10 10:39:58 <mikhas> xoan_, use Qt's testing framework?
Jun 10 10:40:02 <Venemo> mikhas, more than 5, if you think that way :P
Jun 10 10:40:16 <Venemo> mikhas, http://gitorious.org/colorful-apps/pages/PuzzleMaster
Jun 10 10:40:36 <mikhas> I am thinking of the "this application is 5-times as big as needed, because I supported 5 platforms" way
Jun 10 10:41:18 <Venemo> mikhas, it is not 5 times as big... :P
Jun 10 10:41:38 <mikhas> I know, I am exaggerating
Jun 10 10:42:15 <lardman> I suppose it depends how much platform specific code you require
Jun 10 10:42:21 <lardman> I hope this app of mine won't need too much
Jun 10 10:43:26 <mikhas> famous last words
Jun 10 10:43:52 <lardman> travel hopefully? :)
Jun 10 10:44:16 <Venemo> I don't require much platform-specific code usually, but I do care about how well my app looks on these platforms, so I tend to add code for some use cases to make it look better
Jun 10 10:44:46 <lardman> ah well mine's designed for mechanical engineers so what it looks like is probably not so important
Jun 10 10:45:02 <mikhas> Venemo, you dont use QML?
Jun 10 10:45:49 <Venemo> mikhas, not yet
Jun 10 10:46:07 <mikhas> holding back until QML2?
Jun 10 10:46:08 <Venemo> QML doesn't offer anything that would benefit this particular app
Jun 10 10:46:20 <Venemo> it uses QGV
Jun 10 10:46:27 <mikhas> look, pure reasoning! this guy has it
Jun 10 10:47:02 <lardman> what's QGV?
Jun 10 10:47:05 <Venemo> I may consider using QML for my next app(s), but this one will probably stay as it is
Jun 10 10:47:07 <Stskeeps> graphics view
Jun 10 10:47:10 <lardman> ok
Jun 10 10:47:15 <Venemo> QGV = Qt Graphics View framework
Jun 10 10:47:30 <mikhas> the thing that was cool before QML was cool
Jun 10 10:47:38 <lardman> lol
Jun 10 10:47:50 <Venemo> btw in Qt 4, QML also uses QGV for its GUI afaik
Jun 10 10:47:56 <mikhas> yes
Jun 10 10:48:05 <mikhas> that's why I was asking whether you specifically wait for QML2
Jun 10 10:48:48 <Venemo> I'll wait and see :)
Jun 10 10:49:16 <MooseTheBrown> has anyone ever compile udev from sources?
Jun 10 10:49:37 <Venemo> mikhas, QML could be a huge win, but the fact that it's based on javascript doesn't really appeal to me.
Jun 10 10:50:16 <mikhas> Venemo, I hear you
Jun 10 10:50:37 <Venemo> I mean, javascript? seriously? what's wrong with the world?
Jun 10 10:51:06 <Venemo> and they _could have_ made it compiled, but NOOO, it's interpreted crap. no thanks.
Jun 10 10:51:51 <Venemo> I hear that Qt 5's QML will be different, and it may support JIT compilation. so let's see :)
Jun 10 10:52:51 * lardman wonders if it will be easier to add Python scripting in Qt5
Jun 10 10:55:23 <lardman> more of a question for PySide though
Jun 10 10:55:33 <lardman> I still find it odd that not many people want that
Jun 10 10:55:40 <RST38h> Venemo: Why not go directly to HTML5 then? =)
Jun 10 10:55:50 <RST38h> Or Flash.
Jun 10 10:56:02 <Venemo> RST38h, how is HTML 5 related to Qt?
Jun 10 10:56:19 <RST38h> Venemo: You call it QtHTML5 engine and now it is related to Qt
Jun 10 10:56:33 <Venemo> why would I want to do that?
Jun 10 10:57:26 <lardman> Isn't the idea of QML to make application design easy, I guess that's what RST38h is saying about HTML5/flash
Jun 10 10:57:36 <Venemo> I don't understand why everyone is trying to push these webby stuff into application development.
Jun 10 10:57:58 <smoku> Venemo: how do you expect a scripted UI, without actually using a scripted language to control it?
Jun 10 10:58:00 <Venemo> HTML and JS are crap for web development, why would they be good for app development then?
Jun 10 10:58:16 <Venemo> smoku, not sure, what do you mean by "scripted ui"?
Jun 10 10:59:33 <smoku> Venemo: attaching small code snippets to actions on UI elements. and having it easily modifiable.
Jun 10 11:00:01 <RST38h> lardman: More to the point: HTML5, Flash, and Qtq all use JavaScript as their main coding language
Jun 10 11:00:12 <RST38h> lardman: All three pretty much save the same purpose
Jun 10 11:00:27 <Venemo> smoku, I'm not really sure why this would need a script language
Jun 10 11:00:28 <smoku> Venemo: any arguments to support "HTML and JS are crap for web development" thesis?
Jun 10 11:00:40 <RST38h> lardman: So, once you make QtQ as complicated and resource hungry as HTML5, why would anyone use it?
Jun 10 11:00:42 <lardman> the fact Qt uses Javascript isn't web related though is it? I assumed it was just because it was a "standard" scripting language and they wanted one to be built in
Jun 10 11:00:58 <RST38h> smoku: Actually, I can provide you with an argument
Jun 10 11:01:05 <lardman> RST38h: easy development?
Jun 10 11:01:10 <RST38h> lardman: HTML5 is harldy web related nowadays
Jun 10 11:01:25 <RST38h> lardman: How is QtQ easier than HTML5 or Flash?
Jun 10 11:01:35 <lardman> fair enough, I've never looked at it, I write in C as I'm an engineer
Jun 10 11:01:55 <Venemo> I was once a web developer, I always felt that HTML/CSS was kinda okay (but still annoying), and JS is just crap. I haven't met anyone yet who actually enjoyed coding in JS
Jun 10 11:01:59 <smoku> Venemo: what do you propose in place of scripted language then?
Jun 10 11:02:00 <lardman> (and write simulation code, not guis)
Jun 10 11:02:14 <sroedal> RST38h: have you tried writing a HTML5 UI vs writing a QML UI?
Jun 10 11:02:15 <smoku> RST38h: please do.
Jun 10 11:02:18 * TSCHAKeee was always a Smalltalk fan...but....
Jun 10 11:03:00 <lardman> s/javascript/python would make me happy
Jun 10 11:03:02 <Venemo> smoku, I think a declarative UI language would be best. kind of like XAML.
Jun 10 11:03:20 <TSCHAKeee> lots of people talk on what they think would be best
Jun 10 11:03:25 <sroedal> Venemo: QML is declarative
Jun 10 11:03:31 <TSCHAKeee> very few actually just do what they think would be best.
Jun 10 11:03:33 <RST38h> smoku: HTML5, by its nature, requires a much bigger memory footprint than flash or QtQ (at least so I guess)
Jun 10 11:03:36 <Venemo> sroedal, since when is javascript a declarative language?
Jun 10 11:03:36 <smoku> Venemo: I've written a full XMPP client in JS using jQuery and Strophe in javascript only, and enjoyed the experience very much. JavaScript is a great language.
Jun 10 11:03:40 <RST38h> sroendal: no more
Jun 10 11:03:43 <sroedal> I think Javascript mixes very well with QML
Jun 10 11:03:50 <RST38h> sroendal: once you have included JS, it is no longer declarative.
Jun 10 11:03:57 <Venemo> RST38h ++
Jun 10 11:04:12 <Venemo> smoku, you are the first guy who says that
Jun 10 11:04:13 <sroedal> RST38h: so you would say HTML is not declarative either since you can include Javascript? :)
Jun 10 11:04:31 <sroedal> QML is the declarative part of QML + Javascript
Jun 10 11:04:37 <smoku> Venemo: isn't XAML a scripting language with strange XML-like syntax?
Jun 10 11:04:44 <RST38h> smoku: HTML's huge memory footprint is  the reason why Nokia's web runtime pretty much failed, also the reason why Fennec is such a hog, why web applications are not very popular still ,etc
Jun 10 11:05:04 <RST38h> sroedal: correct.
Jun 10 11:05:13 <Venemo> smoku, XAML is not a scripting language. it is an XML-based declarative GUI language
Jun 10 11:05:19 <sroedal> and you can do quite a lot of functional programming in Javascript
Jun 10 11:05:27 <RST38h> smoku: JavaScript is a pretty decent langiage for its purpose, absolutely agree there
Jun 10 11:05:45 <Venemo> personally, I find javascript's type system and interpreted nature _Very_ annoying.
Jun 10 11:05:52 <RST38h> smoku: But it is just not practical for complex well performing apps, especially on constrained mobile devices
Jun 10 11:06:04 <Venemo> RST38h, again, I agree with you
Jun 10 11:06:07 <smoku> RST38h: so? browsers already handle all kinds of HTML. HTML5 is not really a problem.
Jun 10 11:06:14 <TSCHAKeee> *cough*FORTH*cough*
Jun 10 11:06:17 <RST38h> smoku: And the whole reason for me trolling here is that I am afraid that QtQ is moving in exactly the same direction
Jun 10 11:06:34 <RST38h> smoku: Of course browsers handle it. But can your device handle such a browser? ;)
Jun 10 11:06:46 <RST38h> smoku: Again, run Fennec on your N900. Weep.
Jun 10 11:06:47 <sroedal> Venemo: being interpreted or jitted or compiled is not a part of a language per se
Jun 10 11:06:52 <smoku> Venemo: first guy??  google "Douglas Crockford"
Jun 10 11:07:31 <sroedal> yep, javascript skeptics should read some articles at http://javascript.crockford.com/
Jun 10 11:07:49 <amjad_> i have used xaml for wp7 gui , :)
Jun 10 11:07:57 <smoku> RST38h: JavaScript empowers GNOME 3 Shell, and performs there very well.
Jun 10 11:08:00 * amjad_ ducks in case meegons strike me :)
Jun 10 11:08:01 <sroedal> especially "The World's Most Misunderstood Programming Language"
Jun 10 11:08:14 <RST38h> smoku: I have not seen GNOME3 Shell, only negative reviews of it
Jun 10 11:08:35 <RST38h> smoku: And, incidentally, are you going to run GNOME3 on your phone? Have you tried it?
Jun 10 11:09:04 * RST38h sighs: why are these people suddenly decided that I am against JS?
Jun 10 11:09:05 <Venemo> it would work, provided that you have 3D acceleration on said phone
Jun 10 11:09:17 <sroedal> RST38h: this demo is pure QML 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl15wKqvUNo
Jun 10 11:09:21 <RST38h> Venemo; Will run out of memory
Jun 10 11:10:03 <RST38h> sroedal: This demo shows some arbitrary crap. It does not contain any performance or memory footprint numbers and does not show a realistic app/
Jun 10 11:10:18 <smoku> RST38h: I'm not. But I'm pretty sure it would run there well. Clutter runs well on my phone. Spidermonkey runs well on my phone. GObject runs well on my phone. All together at once.  I see no reason why another application of the same three technologies would perform worse.
Jun 10 11:10:36 <sroedal> RST38h: it demonstrates convenience
Jun 10 11:10:42 <RST38h> smoku: You really do not?
Jun 10 11:11:00 <RST38h> smoku: Not even a guess?
Jun 10 11:11:32 <lcuk> sroedal, the background wavey bit on that video is awesome
Jun 10 11:11:35 <lcuk> is that done in qml?
Jun 10 11:11:38 <sroedal> lcuk: yep
Jun 10 11:11:41 <lcuk> :D
Jun 10 11:11:58 <smoku> RST38h: yes I do not. If fennec is able to run on my phone, less resource hungry shell would run too.
Jun 10 11:11:59 <Venemo> smoku, I would normally agree, but considering that Gnome Shell leaks a crazy amount of memory, I must say it wouldn't work well.
Jun 10 11:12:03 <lcuk> but that is not performance on a handheld
Jun 10 11:12:07 <vvaltone> I hope it isn't per-pixel javascript
Jun 10 11:12:11 <sroedal> lcuk: depends on the handheld
Jun 10 11:12:17 <RST38h> smoku: First of all, Fennec is unable to run on your phone.
Jun 10 11:12:18 <vvaltone> but some sort of transformation effect just controlled
Jun 10 11:12:21 <lcuk> sroedal, one that actually works well
Jun 10 11:12:25 <sroedal> vvaltone: ShaderEffectItems
Jun 10 11:12:34 <RST38h> smoku: You cannot call the current "experience" usable, so effectively it cannot run.
Jun 10 11:12:34 <lcuk> inline GLSL into qml?
Jun 10 11:12:37 <lcuk> holy carp
Jun 10 11:12:38 <sroedal> lcuk: yes
Jun 10 11:12:56 <sroedal> lcuk: with GLSL uniforms dynamically bound to QML properties, which can be animated with PropertyAnimation
Jun 10 11:13:02 <lcuk> sroedal, I tohught QML was about not needing to be a developer!
Jun 10 11:13:14 <lcuk> you need a PHD in GL shaders to read them
Jun 10 11:13:16 <sroedal> lcuk: you'll pick shader effect items from an effect suite somewhere
Jun 10 11:13:21 <lardman> sroedal: that's quite nice
Jun 10 11:13:21 <RST38h> smoku: Now, QtQ adds the full JS with JIT and complex UI graphcs with all the attributes and features and attached JS event handlers and JIT structures for these handlers and whatever
Jun 10 11:13:31 <RST38h> smoku: Do you think QtQ will be much simpler than Fennec then?
Jun 10 11:13:38 <smoku> RST38h: the current fennec performance issue is not really javascript related :)
Jun 10 11:13:45 <lcuk> haha
Jun 10 11:13:46 <lardman> lcuk: that appeals, you can do something similar now in MATLAB with CUDA kernels (which are basically the same thing)
Jun 10 11:13:50 <smoku> Venemo: and memory leaking is unfixable? :)
Jun 10 11:13:50 <RST38h> smoku: it is memory footprint related
Jun 10 11:13:51 <sroedal> lcuk: also, GLSL fragment shaders are fairly simple
Jun 10 11:13:52 <lcuk> the scrolling around big picture in a window
Jun 10 11:13:55 * lcuk did that on n810 :P
Jun 10 11:13:56 <sroedal> lcuk: easy to play with
Jun 10 11:14:06 <vvaltone> lcuk, that's why you use copy&paste, developerless GLSL programming
Jun 10 11:14:07 <RST38h> smoku: Please notice: I am NOT questioning JS virtues
Jun 10 11:14:15 <Venemo> smoku, I'm not saying it is unfixable, just that in its current state it is a catastrophe
Jun 10 11:14:32 <RST38h> smoku: I am doing the quantative analysis of the JS-based UI solutions we have got right now, and do not see them as viable
Jun 10 11:14:34 <smoku> RST38h: right. and I've been toying with Gjs and its memory footprint is very low.
Jun 10 11:14:39 <RST38h> smoku: For general apps
Jun 10 11:15:02 <RST38h> smoku: It is not the footprint of a single object either
Jun 10 11:15:10 <sroedal> lcuk: you can just do import SomeonesAwesomeShaderEffectSuite; WavySmoothCurves { wavyness: 5.0; smoothiness: 2.0 }
Jun 10 11:15:15 <RST38h> smoku: It is what happens when you require thousands and thousands of them
Jun 10 11:15:23 <lcuk> sroedal, wavy bits are just one part
Jun 10 11:15:26 <RST38h> smoku: Such as when maintaining a DOM tree
Jun 10 11:15:33 <lcuk> and get in the way of the app itself!
Jun 10 11:15:37 <sroedal> lcuk: sure, this applies to most effects :)
Jun 10 11:15:48 <smoku> RST38h: is this the case of QML, or is it HTML DOM specific?
Jun 10 11:15:53 <RST38h> smoku: So, I am not really sure WHY anyone would like QtQ to become HTML5
Jun 10 11:15:53 <lcuk> hang on
Jun 10 11:16:03 <sroedal> lcuk: that's more of something you'd have in the homescreen background
Jun 10 11:16:09 <RST38h> smoku: QML will also have to get a similar structure
Jun 10 11:16:14 * lcuk has other ideas for homescreen
Jun 10 11:16:25 <sroedal> lcuk: imagine downloadable homescreen themes based on QML
Jun 10 11:16:33 <smoku> RST38h: i fully agree that HTML is not a good solution to make UIs.
Jun 10 11:16:40 <RST38h> smoki: DOM describes an HTML document, but QML will require the same structure to describe the UI hierarchy
Jun 10 11:16:52 <lcuk> sroedal, I don't need to imagine ;)
Jun 10 11:16:58 <lcuk> well, the qml part maybe
Jun 10 11:16:59 <lcuk> http://liqbase.net/liq.20110607_220246.liqdesign2.scr.png
Jun 10 11:16:59 <RST38h> smoku: For each visible form, I guess
Jun 10 11:16:59 <sroedal> RST38h: QML is less verbose presumably
Jun 10 11:17:03 <lcuk> but make that in qml
Jun 10 11:17:12 <lcuk> using such simple things as line drawing
Jun 10 11:17:16 <lcuk> lots of line drawing
Jun 10 11:17:25 <lcuk> and I will be happier to work with qml
Jun 10 11:17:26 <RST38h> smoku: And I have not even got the the case where you have to make a video player or a dynamic game in QtQ
Jun 10 11:17:40 <RST38h> smoku: Where it will simply fold up without native implementation of the app
Jun 10 11:17:40 <smoku> RST38h: but even manually created with C++ Qt UI already has a Widget tree, for distributing events.
Jun 10 11:17:41 <sroedal> lcuk: yep, that's a QML compositor :)
Jun 10 11:17:53 <lcuk> sroedal, no, that is liqbase.
Jun 10 11:17:55 <sroedal> lcuk: or potentially just a single-process QML application, with QML applets
Jun 10 11:17:59 <RST38h> smoku: Right. But not the JS-related stuff
Jun 10 11:18:01 <smoku> RST38h: there is not much difference whether you create this tree manually, or via markup language
Jun 10 11:18:03 <lcuk> that runs now on n8x0 n900 ideapad etc
Jun 10 11:18:15 <sroedal> lcuk: just thinking about how it could be done with QML
Jun 10 11:18:22 <lcuk> qml looks like liqbase, not the other way round.
Jun 10 11:18:23 <lcuk> ;)
Jun 10 11:18:28 <RST38h> smoku: A strandard Qt tree does not store the CSS information like QML
Jun 10 11:18:38 <RST38h> smoku: It also does not store the JS handlers and attached data
Jun 10 11:19:05 <vvaltone> RST38h, what does a standard qt tree do with the css data then? apply it to properties?
Jun 10 11:19:17 <sroedal> RST38h: QtQuick 2 will give you dynamic video elements for a video player
Jun 10 11:19:33 <lcuk> sroedal, :D will it have YUV format?
Jun 10 11:19:39 <sroedal> lcuk: probably
Jun 10 11:19:42 <lcuk> I hear better line drawing is coming in qt quick 2
Jun 10 11:19:54 * lcuk has been pushing for this in many places
Jun 10 11:20:03 <lcuk> it is a requirement to draw lots and lots of lines
Jun 10 11:20:18 <sroedal> you can always fall back to OpenGL ES 2.0 by writing custom items
Jun 10 11:20:33 <lcuk> sroedal, http://liqbase.net/20110526_002.jpg
Jun 10 11:20:46 <lcuk> sroedal, I want to draw lines, they are important.
Jun 10 11:21:00 <lcuk> we have lost the knowledge of how to wireframe things
Jun 10 11:21:05 <RST38h> sroedal: thank you, and if I want to do something non-standard to the video?
Jun 10 11:21:17 <RST38h> sroedal: image processing? conversion? text overlays?
Jun 10 11:21:33 <sroedal> RST38h: you can morph it into a rubber duck if you want with a ShaderEffectItem
Jun 10 11:21:33 <smoku> RST38h: this is an issue with QML implementation then. not inherently related to using JS per se
Jun 10 11:21:44 <vvaltone> what about glsl effects on the video?
Jun 10 11:21:47 <sroedal> yep
Jun 10 11:21:52 <sroedal> it's a texture in the end
Jun 10 11:22:00 <sroedal> you might have to do your own YUV->RGB conversion
Jun 10 11:22:00 <lcuk> sroedal, when is qt quick due to be released?
Jun 10 11:22:05 <RST38h> smoku: Ok, so you want to do something to the video aside from playing it and transforming it into a rubber duck
Jun 10 11:22:09 <lcuk> I will mark it on the calendar and ask then
Jun 10 11:22:20 <RST38h> smoku: JS will not have enough performance and QML component will not have it implemented
Jun 10 11:22:27 <RST38h> smoku: And you blame it on QML./
Jun 10 11:22:28 <sroedal> lcuk: Qt Quick 2 is still work in progress
Jun 10 11:22:33 <smoku> RST38h: write C++ code for it then?
Jun 10 11:22:39 <lcuk> I know, but when should I start bugging you about it?
Jun 10 11:22:39 <RST38h> smoku: Please, do answer me: who is fucked at the end?
Jun 10 11:22:57 <RST38h> smoku: I can just as well write C++ code for the rest of my app then
Jun 10 11:23:02 <lcuk> q4 this year ok? ask at end of september?
Jun 10 11:23:05 <vvaltone> So... how much larger will it be than current Qt? (megabyte, binary) :P
Jun 10 11:23:12 <sroedal> RST38h: QML is much more convenient than C++
Jun 10 11:23:21 <lcuk> sroedal, depends on usecase
Jun 10 11:23:23 <sroedal> RST38h: for rapid development
Jun 10 11:23:26 <sroedal> sure
Jun 10 11:23:26 <RST38h> smoku: Why would I agree to QML bloat and unportability when it does not even cover all my use cases?
Jun 10 11:23:27 <sroedal> for UIs
Jun 10 11:23:35 <smoku> RST38h: did I say JS is applicable to all thing imaginable?  of course if you require some havy data lifting, you need to revert to native code.
Jun 10 11:23:42 <RST38h> sroedal: VisualBASIC has been used for rapid development. Where is it now?
Jun 10 11:23:50 <vvaltone> sroedal, I'd argue against that, it's fantastic for animated interfaces tho
Jun 10 11:23:54 <lcuk> sroedal, I saw a really fancy pants QML based book store UI
Jun 10 11:24:00 <lcuk> running on powerful x86 hardware
Jun 10 11:24:01 <vvaltone> but just very basic interfaces, it's more work than plain qt
Jun 10 11:24:02 <sroedal> RST38h: QtQuick 2.0 lets you integrate with C++ trivially
Jun 10 11:24:03 <RST38h> sroedal: Delphi was used for rapid dev, Java was used for rapid dev. The graveyard is just full of these.
Jun 10 11:24:07 <lcuk> but the UX was sluggish and juddering
Jun 10 11:24:14 <lcuk> on what I consider high powered device
Jun 10 11:24:22 <lcuk> (wetab)
Jun 10 11:24:23 <smoku> anyway. If you can do a computer emulator in javascript, which works reasonably well, javascript can't be THAT bad on performance :)
Jun 10 11:24:25 <RST38h> sroedal: Tk/Tcl let me integrate with C++ trivially for 10+ years
Jun 10 11:24:34 <RST38h> sroedal; Where is Tk/Tcl nowadays?
Jun 10 11:24:36 <lcuk> it needs qml performance tool running
Jun 10 11:24:42 <lcuk> and streamlining quite a lot
Jun 10 11:24:47 <sroedal> RST38h: what point are you trying to make?
Jun 10 11:25:04 <lcuk> if you want to know the app PM me
Jun 10 11:25:14 <RST38h> sroedal: I am trying to make a point that QtQ does not appear to have enough advantages for the app developer to justify the required bloat.
Jun 10 11:25:19 <smoku> and if you want to add scripting to UI, javascript is as good as any other scripting language, if not better
Jun 10 11:25:30 <RST38h> sroendal: And you are trying to give me anecdotal (sic) evidence to the contrary
Jun 10 11:25:50 <sroedal> RST38h: what kind of evidence would satisfy you?
Jun 10 11:25:53 * lcuk should try to implement liqflow in qml :)
Jun 10 11:25:58 <RST38h> sroendal: For which evidence I have not even asked you BTW
Jun 10 11:26:03 <lcuk> or liqstars even :D
Jun 10 11:26:03 <vvaltone> RST38h, have you ever used qml?
Jun 10 11:26:13 <sroedal> RST38h: it offers huge productivity advantages
Jun 10 11:26:26 <RST38h> sroendal: I would like to see memory footprint stats for QML2 running an average app UI written in JS
Jun 10 11:26:40 <sroedal> yep, me too
Jun 10 11:26:47 <sroedal> it's not really done yet
Jun 10 11:26:51 <RST38h> sorendal: And I would like these stats to be at the level of an average GTK+ or native Qt app
Jun 10 11:26:53 * lcuk is tickled that liqbase was confused with QML 
Jun 10 11:26:58 <sroedal> it will be less than QML 1.0 for sure
Jun 10 11:27:10 <RST38h> sroendal: Well, give me the QML1.0 app stats
Jun 10 11:27:13 <lcuk> how about on level with pygtk or pyqt?
Jun 10 11:27:20 <RST38h> lcuk: No, sorry.
Jun 10 11:27:28 <lcuk> is pyqt or pyside better/faster than qml+js?
Jun 10 11:27:29 <RST38h> lcuk: If I want Py* I will use Py*.
Jun 10 11:27:39 <lcuk> I know, I am asking the question
Jun 10 11:27:48 <vvaltone> I doubt it's faster
Jun 10 11:27:50 <lcuk> since python+bindings to  toolkit were historically the scripted method
Jun 10 11:28:04 <lcuk> that is the target audience for qml
Jun 10 11:28:24 <lcuk> if their apps are faster then you have a positive push
Jun 10 11:28:29 <sroedal> RST38h: I do not have those numbers off-hand
Jun 10 11:28:33 <lcuk> Jaffa, how is attitude in qml for you?
Jun 10 11:28:40 <sroedal> RST38h: not sure if anyone has done a detailed comparison
Jun 10 11:28:42 <lcuk> since you have a python version and a qml version
Jun 10 11:28:47 <vvaltone> javascript has had a lot of love from optimizers
Jun 10 11:28:51 <sroedal> RST38h: it would be very useful to see indeed
Jun 10 11:28:57 <vvaltone> python not so much
Jun 10 11:29:18 <vvaltone> I think I heard someone said it uses or will use V8?
Jun 10 11:29:37 <RST38h> sroedal: see? so, in effect, you do not have any arguments
Jun 10 11:29:57 <sroedal> RST38h: I've only been making arguments about convenience so far
Jun 10 11:30:07 <RST38h> A Youtube video with some ppt slides and a short demo will not do
Jun 10 11:30:25 <sroedal> RST38h: full source is available
Jun 10 11:30:29 <RST38h> sroedal: And, as convinience goes, there have been a plenty of very convinient rapid dev tools. All dead now.
Jun 10 11:30:34 <vvaltone> It's easy to make the argument for animated interfaces that users for some baffling reason want
Jun 10 11:30:41 <RST38h> sroedal; I have listed just some for you.
Jun 10 11:30:47 <vvaltone> personally, I don't like transients
Jun 10 11:30:55 <lcuk> transitions * ?
Jun 10 11:31:00 <sroedal> RST38h: yep, there are also non-dead ones, like Flash
Jun 10 11:31:08 <vvaltone> lcuk, whatever, when moving from state to another
Jun 10 11:31:09 <lcuk> :D sroedal
Jun 10 11:31:10 <RST38h> sroedal: Furthermore, if you are going to claim convinience as the main QtQ advantage, you will have to compare QtQ with Flash and HTML5
Jun 10 11:31:16 <omidp> hey guys how can i activate
Jun 10 11:31:18 <sroedal> RST38h: https://qt.gitorious.org/qt-labs/scene-graph-demo/trees/master
Jun 10 11:31:32 <lcuk> vvaltone, slide in and zoom in are ok, but on the whole I agree
Jun 10 11:31:34 <RST38h> sroedal: Again, the source to the demo proves absolutely nothing, sorry
Jun 10 11:31:37 <sroedal> RST38h: why? you said your alternative was pure C++
Jun 10 11:31:39 <lcuk> just the data, presented well is enough
Jun 10 11:32:03 <omidp> hey guys how can i activate mp3 and avi, mkv, etc  and i dont have internet connection
Jun 10 11:32:13 <RST38h> sroedal: I have said that QtQ, as it is being currently seen and advertised, should be compared to HTML5 and Flash
Jun 10 11:32:34 <RST38h> sroedal: And proven to be better than these two, with numbers, before I believe it has any future
Jun 10 11:32:54 <RST38h> sroedal; Should we go over what "numbers" means?
Jun 10 11:33:21 <vvaltone> RST38h, maybe if flash was rewritten, that'd be true
Jun 10 11:33:23 <lcuk> vvaltone, what kind of apps do you write?
Jun 10 11:33:25 <sroedal> RST38h: lines of code?
Jun 10 11:33:45 <vvaltone> lcuk, all sorts
Jun 10 11:34:06 <lcuk> RST38h, sroedal - a developer proficient in toolkit can create applications better than somebody not proficient in toolkit.
Jun 10 11:34:22 <lcuk> other toolkits do not look so good because of the learning curve
Jun 10 11:34:46 <sroedal> the numbers that matter are performance, memory footprint, and implementation effort
Jun 10 11:34:50 <lcuk> RST38h, QML is undeniably powerful
Jun 10 11:35:01 <lcuk> and for users of it it will pass all tests you attempt
Jun 10 11:35:01 <sroedal> and of course end UI quality
Jun 10 11:35:11 <lcuk> but merely saying it is crap is not very friendly
Jun 10 11:35:18 <lcuk> or demanding specifics
Jun 10 11:35:20 <RST38h> sroedal: also the number of platforms supporting it and the ease of porting
Jun 10 11:35:32 <sroedal> RST38h: yep
Jun 10 11:35:35 <RST38h> sroedal: also the amount of other (non-memory) resources required such as OGL support
Jun 10 11:35:48 <RST38h> sroedal: So, if you want to prove something, start with these.
Jun 10 11:35:48 <lcuk> sroedal, I am comfortable in visual basic
Jun 10 11:36:10 <RST38h> lcuk: my vacuum cleaner is undeniably powerful :)
Jun 10 11:36:16 <vvaltone> lcuk, last one was a userspace usb gadget driver
Jun 10 11:36:25 <lcuk> nice vvaltone
Jun 10 11:36:31 <lcuk> for meego?
Jun 10 11:36:34 <vvaltone> yes
Jun 10 11:36:38 <lcuk> :D awesome!
Jun 10 11:36:47 * lcuk likes hearing about new things in meego
Jun 10 11:36:54 <vvaltone> well, I do get paid for it
Jun 10 11:37:04 <lcuk> even better
Jun 10 11:37:12 <RST38h> sroedal: My guess though is that you will soon find out that QtQ requires a lot of memory, OpenGL, full Qt stack of 50-60MB, and is still a bit sluggish and jittery at the end
Jun 10 11:37:34 <RST38h> sroedal: And that will be it.
Jun 10 11:38:59 <sroedal> RST38h: my prediction is that QtQ will perform better than the alternatives, as you can integrate native C++ modules
Jun 10 11:39:27 <RST38h> sroedal: Once again, once I see that QtQ is a huge bottleneck in my otherwise native program, I drop it
Jun 10 11:39:35 <RST38h> sroedal: this is how Tk/Tcl died by the way
Jun 10 11:40:05 <vvaltone> All I remember of Tk/Tcl was the hideous ui
Jun 10 11:40:07 <lcuk> vvaltone, at the moment, I am trying to allow the n900-CE to import phone contacts directly
Jun 10 11:40:07 <Jaffa> lcuk: QML is nice and fast and suits Attitude well; but the vagaries of doing cross-platform stuff in it are painful.
Jun 10 11:40:16 <sroedal> RST38h: QtQ gives you that option
Jun 10 11:40:18 <lcuk> so that when testing we test with a full cop of real data from the n900 :)
Jun 10 11:40:30 <lcuk> Jaffa, reasonable review
Jun 10 11:40:33 <lcuk> :D
Jun 10 11:40:48 <Jaffa> lcuk: e.g. on Harmattan one needs to set an appropriate dataRate on the accelerometer; but only certain values are valid on other platforms (without telling you what they are)
Jun 10 11:40:49 <lcuk> RST38h, with more people doing and trying what jaffa has done
Jun 10 11:40:49 <sroedal> RST38h: HTML 5 / Flash ofc do not
Jun 10 11:41:01 <lcuk> we will have more of the things you are seeking
Jun 10 11:41:07 <Jaffa> lcuk: And the Qt Quick Components/MeeGo UX Components debacle is ridiculous.
Jun 10 11:41:10 <lcuk> (comparisons, like for like with real apps)
Jun 10 11:41:28 <lcuk> Jaffa, the data rate issue
Jun 10 11:41:40 <lcuk> the camera on n900 and n8x0 was similar in that regard
Jun 10 11:41:46 <lcuk> gstreamer on n8x0 had framerate
Jun 10 11:41:51 <lcuk> on n900 it didnt
Jun 10 11:42:02 <lcuk> and it took a while to suss out
Jun 10 11:46:00 <RST38h> sroedal: Actually, they do, just differently
Jun 10 11:46:27 <lardman> lcuk: no framerate on N900 camera?
Jun 10 11:46:36 <lcuk> lardman, something like that
Jun 10 11:46:49 <lardman> nah, it's just got an odd fraction which no-one can work out
Jun 10 11:46:52 <lardman> so you use a range
Jun 10 11:46:55 <lcuk> if you specify the parameter, the camera does not work properly *hazy memory from long ago*
Jun 10 11:47:25 <lardman> yeah, because you can't specifiy the right values, but if you use a range with your desired value in the middle it does work
Jun 10 11:47:49 <lardman> annoying though for sure!
Jun 10 11:49:25 <lcuk> ahahh lardman :D
Jun 10 11:50:24 <vvaltone> The new Nokia N900 with unknown framerate camera :P
Jun 10 11:52:57 <lardman> well the "~30fps, but if you don't specifiy it exactly gst doesn't like you"-camera ;)
Jun 10 11:52:57 <lcuk> vvaltone, infinite framerate
Jun 10 11:53:00 <lcuk> get it right ;)
Jun 10 11:53:16 <lcuk> at the Intel Remastered event
Jun 10 11:55:09 <lcuk> one of the art pieces by Sara Hibbert was usingthe camera shutter effect to portray a modern version of 'Dancer with a Bouquet of Flowers' painting by Edgar Degas
Jun 10 11:55:16 <lcuk> http://www.intel.com/en_uk/remastered/remaster.htm?artist=sh
Jun 10 11:55:32 <lcuk> she took numerous photos of a dancer illuminated by strobe
Jun 10 11:56:10 <lcuk> (reminded about framerates etc ;))
Jun 10 11:56:25 <lcuk> lardman, the entire IntelRemastered exhibition was cool stuff
Jun 10 11:57:35 <lardman> hmm, I'll take it under advisement ;)
Jun 10 11:57:44 <lardman> Holly would probably like it though
Jun 10 12:01:03 <lcuk> lardman, the technology used on one of them was good
Jun 10 12:01:21 <lcuk> full arduino control and webcam signal processing to detect people and movement
Jun 10 12:02:29 <lardman> ah well that's more interesting
Jun 10 12:02:42 <lardman> shame they had the pictures of the ballerina and not the hw then :)
Jun 10 12:02:58 <lcuk> lardman, yes, each artist used the best of their skillsets to remaster the work in their eyes
Jun 10 12:03:06 <lcuk> there was no single way to intepret some
Jun 10 12:03:30 <lcuk> one guy did a huge algorithmic animation that was aew inspiring and would be at home as a level in a modern game
Jun 10 12:03:40 <lcuk> awe too
Jun 10 12:03:51 <lardman> sounds cool
Jun 10 12:04:02 <lcuk> yeah
Jun 10 12:04:14 <lcuk> one of the artists ended up needing a state of the art render farm
Jun 10 12:04:26 <lcuk> so intel imported some of the fastest machines they had for him
Jun 10 12:04:35 <vvaltone> I would've required one too
Jun 10 12:04:41 <lcuk> and the rendering was done onto bluray discs in high def
Jun 10 12:05:14 <MeeGoExperts> [Off Topic] Hopefully a MeeGo Meetup will go ahead in Birmingham on the 23rd June. All are welcome. Food + Drinks + MeeGo speakers and discussions.
Jun 10 12:06:30 <lcuk> MeeGoExperts, :D how on earth is that offtopic dude!
Jun 10 12:06:37 <MeeGoExperts> fuk knows
Jun 10 12:06:39 <MeeGoExperts> Lol
Jun 10 12:06:51 <MeeGoExperts> I didn't want to tread on any toes
Jun 10 12:06:54 <lardman> hmm, would be good to attend
Jun 10 12:07:12 <lardman> MeeGoExperts: so you mean off the current off topic, so back on topic? :)
Jun 10 12:07:35 <MeeGoExperts> I ment more like - Hey - Quick side note type thing
Jun 10 12:08:05 <lardman> only kidding, don't worry
Jun 10 12:08:15 * lardman heads off to do some daemon coding
Jun 10 12:08:19 <lardman> catch you all in a bit
Jun 10 12:08:20 <MeeGoExperts> But i really want to start kicking off the UK MeeGo Scene and that starts with YOU guys. So if anyone can make it, then PLEASE do :-)
Jun 10 12:08:47 <lcuk> MeeGoExperts, ask miika if he wants to come
Jun 10 12:08:57 <lcuk> we can head down from manchester perhaps
Jun 10 12:09:58 <MeeGoExperts> which miika ? on IRC ?
Jun 10 12:10:15 <MeeGoExperts> Would be good to have you there.
Jun 10 12:17:00 <CosmoHill> lcuk: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13722013 eep
Jun 10 12:17:41 <lcuk> alterego, I got mail from hacktivate people
Jun 10 12:18:45 <lcuk> There will also be the "Best Nokia hack":
Jun 10 12:18:45 <lcuk>        "Developers are free to use the development environment
Jun 10 12:18:45 <lcuk>         of their choice as long as it works on a Nokia"
Jun 10 12:18:45 <lcuk>        -- which will be an award of:
Jun 10 12:18:45 <lcuk>        *       £1,000 cash
Jun 10 12:18:45 <lcuk>        *       The promise of a pre-release Windows 7 phone
Jun 10 12:18:47 <lcuk>                as soon as they are available to Nokia internally
Jun 10 12:18:49 <lcuk>                (before they make it to the shops)
Jun 10 12:21:01 <toninikkanen> cool, then you can hack MeeGo onto that
Jun 10 12:24:07 * lcuk looks at the number of weekend project hacks made to date and grins broadly
Jun 10 12:24:48 <RST38h> Hacking Meego onto this thing does satisfy the formal requirement =)
Jun 10 12:25:09 <toninikkanen> too bad the reward is what you need in order to participate, in this case
Jun 10 12:25:14 <toninikkanen> kind of backwards
Jun 10 12:29:09 <lcuk> RST38h, lol
Jun 10 12:36:09 <alterego> lcuk: yeah, so you're coming!
Jun 10 12:36:10 <alterego> WOO!
Jun 10 12:36:13 <alterego> I'm not gonna be alone :D
Jun 10 12:51:40 <lcuk> alterego, there are a number of people in London I need to go and see whilst there
Jun 10 12:52:15 <lcuk> so might have to get the spec/outline from hacktivate and then go to some meetings
Jun 10 12:52:22 <lcuk> before coding on the nighttime
Jun 10 12:52:33 <gri> Hello. Has anyone here managed to get the meego sdk running on Ubuntu 10.04? I just added the 10.10 repository, installed meego-image-creator etc. and have everything up except Xephyr :( I can run Xephyr on the host and then another one in the meego image - so I see something but it's way too small
Jun 10 12:54:36 <alterego> lcuk: I've managed to read in all entries in a dir supplied by the commandline
Jun 10 12:54:53 <alterego> And parse the contact information. Just need to do the injection.
Jun 10 12:55:30 <lcuk> :D
Jun 10 12:55:47 * lcuk would rather the term was import 
Jun 10 12:55:51 <lcuk> but whatever floats your boat
Jun 10 12:56:02 <alterego> the exe is called vcard-import :P
Jun 10 12:56:13 <lcuk> omg exe :P
Jun 10 12:56:20 <lcuk> infact, awesome exe
Jun 10 12:56:25 <lcuk> vcard-import.exe
Jun 10 12:56:31 <alterego> not .exe
Jun 10 12:56:32 <lcuk> just to annoy unix purests :D
Jun 10 12:56:52 * lcuk understands .exe
Jun 10 12:56:55 <thiago> add .sea.bin too
Jun 10 12:56:59 <lcuk> because then it makes .so useful
Jun 10 12:58:14 <RST38h> ah, just add .bat and see how many will try running it
Jun 10 13:08:59 <toninikkanen>  hack it with a baseball.bat
Jun 10 13:22:03 <lcuk> RST38h,
Jun 10 13:22:27 <lcuk> there was a set of image processing tools on the meego repositories somewhere, do you have the url to hand?
Jun 10 13:28:02 <toninikkanen> lcuk: meego-image-editor  ?
Jun 10 13:29:00 <lcuk> :D toninikkanen
Jun 10 13:29:02 <lcuk> http://maemo.gitorious.org/meego-image-editor
Jun 10 13:29:12 <lcuk> thanks, that was enough keyword to find in my bookmarks list
Jun 10 13:29:32 <lcuk> I think it was libquill I wanted
Jun 10 13:30:16 <lcuk> I cannot recall why just now
Jun 10 13:30:25 <lcuk> but I know I needed it for something
Jun 10 13:32:04 <alterego>  lcuk appears the app is locking on manager.saveContacts() :(
Jun 10 13:32:10 <alterego> Just stopped dead.
Jun 10 13:32:30 <lcuk> alterego, one at a time
Jun 10 13:32:38 <lcuk> and this time ask the manager nicely.
Jun 10 13:32:39 <alterego> Yeah,
Jun 10 13:42:11 <lcuk> alterego, perhaps you are not giving the manager the correct parameters for it to do its jobs.
Jun 10 13:42:17 <alterego> Possibly
Jun 10 13:42:18 * lcuk notes this is the same in many areas of life
Jun 10 13:42:23 <alterego> You mean the constructor?
Jun 10 13:42:33 <alterego> It should default to the correct backend, but who can be sure aye ..
Jun 10 13:42:33 <lcuk> I don't know
Jun 10 13:42:41 <lcuk> you just have a code block that does stuff
Jun 10 13:42:45 <lcuk> that I don't know :P
Jun 10 13:43:01 <w00t> alterego: don't use the synchronous API
Jun 10 13:43:06 <lcuk> and telling me a non technical bug
Jun 10 13:43:14 <w00t> fire off a QContactSaveRequest
Jun 10 13:43:58 * lcuk notes many of his contacts are xmpp ones from collabora :)
Jun 10 13:44:40 <lbt> does anyone know the location of the new Intel office in Espoo ?
Jun 10 13:44:59 <w00t> lbt: off to apply? ;)
Jun 10 13:45:29 <lbt> meeting ... but don't want to hassle people with small details like where it is ... :)
Jun 10 13:45:51 <lbt> that'll come - but I want to book a hotel first
Jun 10 13:49:56 <CosmoHill> is XZ base or middle ware for Meego?
Jun 10 13:50:04 <alterego> Well, this has but a spanner in the vcard import works
Jun 10 13:50:10 * alterego cracks open gdb
Jun 10 13:53:15 <CosmoHill> dear lord
Jun 10 13:53:16 <lcuk> alterego, I imported the basic info (including extracting photos) last night quite easily using my normal top down coding style
Jun 10 13:53:21 <CosmoHill> why does Meego use such an old version of tar?
Jun 10 13:53:31 <lcuk> I thought this sort of inport was normal for qt mobility?
Jun 10 13:54:44 * CosmoHill is getting very confusing trying to file a bug
Jun 10 13:54:45 <alterego> lcuk: do you have a link to your source?
Jun 10 13:54:52 <alterego> lcuk: so it worked for you is what you're saying? :P
Jun 10 13:55:58 <lcuk> alterego, I did not use mobility or anything, I just read the file and listed contents (used base64 to convert etc) low level stuff
Jun 10 13:56:16 <lcuk> just wanted to see if it was feasible
Jun 10 13:56:32 * lcuk has replaced the static grid of contacts with one from phone etc
Jun 10 13:57:21 <alterego> Well, I've parsed all the data into QContact info
Jun 10 13:57:21 <lcuk> alterego, the syncevolution way: http://syncevolution.org/blogs/pohly/2010/manipulate-evolution-kcalextendedmkcal-qtcontacts-pim-items-uniform-command-line
Jun 10 13:57:31 <lcuk> alterego, you manually parsing too?
Jun 10 13:57:32 <alterego> It's just the manager locks on saveContact
Jun 10 13:57:38 <alterego> No, there's a parser in mobility.
Jun 10 13:57:49 <lcuk> good
Jun 10 13:59:41 <lcuk> alterego, perhaps put the script onto repository somewhere
Jun 10 13:59:46 <lcuk> or pastebin even
Jun 10 13:59:55 <alterego> Yeah, just trying something first :P
Jun 10 14:08:26 <w00t> alterego: like I said, don't use the synchronous methods
Jun 10 14:08:47 <w00t> try using a QContactSaveRequest
Jun 10 14:09:30 <ahel> hi! i need that meego load rt3070.bin instead of rt2870.bin.i've tried blacklisting  rt2870.bin but it doesn't load the right one. any hints? :)
Jun 10 14:09:36 <alterego> w00t: why is it broken? :)
Jun 10 14:10:05 <w00t> because the version in meego is broken afair, I don't know the details off the top of my head
Jun 10 14:10:17 <alterego> Great, m'kay, I'll give that a go.
Jun 10 14:10:17 <w00t> asynchronous requests are the better way to go, anyway
Jun 10 14:10:38 <alterego> Doesn't really make a difference, the command will block regardless :P
Jun 10 14:12:25 <ahel> if i create an alias in /etc/modprobe.d/dist.conf is it the right way?
Jun 10 14:13:52 <ahel> like this :
Jun 10 14:14:07 <ahel> alias rt2870sta rt3070
Jun 10 14:14:55 <ahel> i didn't put ".bin" in the end because none upon have it, but i'm not sure about.
Jun 10 14:22:00 <lcuk> bbl
Jun 10 14:22:57 <ahel> any idea?
Jun 10 14:30:31 <gabrbedd> ahel: what are you trying to accomplish?
Jun 10 14:31:21 <ahel> trying to load the right modules for my wifi gabrbedd :)
Jun 10 14:32:19 <ahel> it is right looking at opensuse documentation?
Jun 10 14:32:48 <ahel> i've searched zypper and found it was opensuse's stuff
Jun 10 14:33:41 <ahel> i have a ralink rt3070 wireless adapter
Jun 10 14:33:54 <ahel> but loads 2870 one...
Jun 10 14:34:11 <gabrbedd> I don't think MeeGo has the driver for that one (I may be wrong).
Jun 10 14:34:23 <gabrbedd> E.g. I had trouble making an RT3090 work with meego.
Jun 10 14:34:36 <gabrbedd> They drivers in the mainline kernel suck.
Jun 10 14:35:03 <gabrbedd> They have "hack-ish" drivers avail. from their website, though.  I've had better success with those.
Jun 10 14:35:35 <gabrbedd> ...but you'll have to compile them yourself (which isn't terribly difficult to do).
Jun 10 14:36:18 <ahel> i've downloaded the .lib. do you think i need .co or .k (don't remember properly :) )
Jun 10 14:36:30 <ahel> from ralink website?
Jun 10 14:37:11 <gabrbedd> The .lib?
Jun 10 14:37:17 <gabrbedd> You the the .tar.gz
Jun 10 14:37:17 <ahel> the firmware
Jun 10 14:37:34 <gabrbedd> than do a `make` and `make install`
Jun 10 14:37:57 <gabrbedd> In linux, all drivers have to be compiled against your running kernel.
Jun 10 14:38:17 <ahel> gabrbedd: ty i'll try that way
Jun 10 14:38:26 <gabrbedd> And (unless I"m mistaken) your issue with the RT3070 is not just firmware... it's the driver.
Jun 10 14:39:00 <ahel> yes in fact if i say modprobe rt3070 it says it cannot find it
Jun 10 14:39:15 <ahel> but i didn't know that i had to compile :)
Jun 10 14:56:55 <lunamara> hi
Jun 10 14:57:17 <lunamara> I need help with my wetab
Jun 10 14:58:21 <lunamara> somebody have a wetab?
Jun 10 15:00:18 <alterego> lcuk, w00t: works :D
Jun 10 15:02:25 <alterego> Takes a while though
Jun 10 15:02:50 <w00t> how long is a while?
Jun 10 15:03:09 <alterego> ~15 to 20 seconds.
Jun 10 15:03:27 <alterego> For my 250 contacts.
Jun 10 15:06:11 <alterego> Holy cow, now I need a search function in qml dialer ..
Jun 10 15:06:34 <lcuk> :)
Jun 10 15:06:36 <alterego> Or at least a quick navigation technique ..
Jun 10 15:06:53 <alterego> I'm going to reflash the image, then do a proper benchmark
Jun 10 15:07:09 <alterego> Oh and push to gitorious
Jun 10 15:07:29 <alterego> Then I'll see about packaging it for tomorrows ce image
Jun 10 15:07:57 <moystard> hello everyone
Jun 10 15:08:36 * alterego feels well chuffed :)
Jun 10 15:08:41 <moystard> I have a problem with the MeeGo SDK 1.2 ... Impossible to make the emulator work with QEmu, I just have a grey screen when launching runtimes
Jun 10 15:08:56 <moystard> I checked and kvm is loaded and the virtualization is enabled in my bios
Jun 10 15:09:00 <moystard> do you guys have an idea?
Jun 10 15:10:50 <alterego> lcuk: I'm impressed with how well my qml list is coping with all the contacts though :D
Jun 10 15:15:24 <lcuk> alterego, first time it has had so many items?
Jun 10 15:16:06 <alterego> Yes
Jun 10 15:16:10 <alterego> For me at least ;)
Jun 10 15:16:17 * lcuk sighs
Jun 10 15:16:24 <alterego> Wassup?
Jun 10 15:16:25 <lcuk> hopefully this is not the same for whole of meego
Jun 10 15:16:37 <lcuk> testing components with real stuff on real working devices is required
Jun 10 15:16:42 <alterego> Yes
Jun 10 15:16:46 <alterego> Maybe this is the first ;)
Jun 10 15:16:50 <lcuk> not a thing on you specifically
Jun 10 15:17:16 <lcuk> it is easy to make components work well with just small bits of data
Jun 10 15:17:18 * alterego flashes clean image.
Jun 10 15:17:26 <lcuk> I am pleased yours has scaled a bit
Jun 10 15:18:31 <alterego> Well, I guess now I've got something to demo at the birmingham event ;)
Jun 10 15:19:27 <moystard> okay sorry guys, I just realised that kvm was loaded but apparently improperly it works now
Jun 10 15:19:31 <moystard> thank you for your help
Jun 10 15:19:45 <maligor> qemu certainly is relatively useless for any gui work, it's just impossibly slow
Jun 10 15:20:29 <maligor> atleast on any images that can't do opengl passthrough
Jun 10 15:31:24 * npm notes http://video.linux.com/rss.xml (feed of meego sf2011 podcasts, which can be viewed directly in firefox4&gnome-mplayer plugin w/o flash)
Jun 10 15:31:46 <thiago_home> cool, thanks
Jun 10 15:34:21 <npm> last conf thp made http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/pipe.edit?_id=33e4531a4cab1ffd01ff38c8d7cfb67c but for some reason it's not working
Jun 10 15:35:07 <npm> if anybody wants to dissect what's wrong, you could just give the old pipes address to gpodder or other podcast players and watch it there.
Jun 10 15:35:19 <npm> though these days, by virtue of working, the browser seems to be winning....
Jun 10 15:59:08 <npm> hmmm alas the feed is semi useless as it only shows http://video.linux.com/video/2055 through http://video.linux.com/video/2080 however there's also a http://video.linux.com/video/2000 and even a http://video.linux.com/video/1 which is mshaver's talk on i18n
Jun 10 15:59:39 <lcuk> Myrtti, Jukka wants a pink phone
Jun 10 15:59:51 <lcuk> can you remember the url for the transfers?
Jun 10 15:59:55 <lcuk> /stick ons
Jun 10 16:01:51 <npm> actually valid videos start at http://video.linux.com/video/1000 ... so not sure which ones correspond to meego conf
Jun 10 16:07:36 <Myrtti> lcuk: istyles
Jun 10 16:10:16 <sjokkis> Has anyone seen Jayabharath here lately?
Jun 10 16:11:11 <CosmoHill> ~seen Jayabharath
Jun 10 16:11:16 <infobot> jayabharath <~jayabhara@nat/ti/x-zsuxyqwmjnbypkcw> was last seen on IRC in channel #edev, 6d 20h 7m 44s ago, saying: 'GPSFan: Awesome.. thank u'.
Jun 10 16:16:07 <gabrbedd> sjokkis: No, but he's pretty active on twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/jayabharath)
Jun 10 16:16:38 <DawnFoster> X-Fade: ping
Jun 10 16:21:12 <alterego> Anyone know how I can blitz the contact database under meego handset?
Jun 10 16:21:17 <alterego> i.e. remove all contacts.
Jun 10 16:22:02 <lcuk> alterego, until today the contacts database was empty
Jun 10 16:22:08 <alterego> :)
Jun 10 16:22:16 <lcuk> thanks to work now you need to implement the cleanup function :P
Jun 10 16:22:24 <w00t> alterego: did you try tracker-control -rs?
Jun 10 16:23:16 <alterego> I thought we were using EDS?
Jun 10 16:23:24 <w00t> no, you're not
Jun 10 16:23:27 <alterego> I thought tracker was just interfacing with it -_-
Jun 10 16:23:35 <alterego> So I was looking in the wrong place then :P
Jun 10 16:24:24 <ahel> hi! i'm trying to set up my wifi on meego netbook. i have a ralink rt2800/rt3070 wireless adapter. any suggestion?
Jun 10 16:24:43 <ahel> *rt2870/3070
Jun 10 16:27:20 <Saviq> lbt, X-Fade: the signer is dead on pub.meego.com, is that something you're aware of?
Jun 10 16:31:37 <ahel> it seems like it cannot associate
Jun 10 16:44:17 <gabrbedd> ahel: have you been able to get it working at all?  (i.e. manually loading drivers etc.)
Jun 10 16:44:29 * gabrbedd didn't realize this was a USB wifi.  Yikes!
Jun 10 16:45:51 <ahel> i've insered a usb wifi so it's not a problem that needs to be solved instantly
Jun 10 16:46:16 <gabrbedd> ahel: And when you do that it works?
Jun 10 16:46:30 <gabrbedd> ahel: so you're just trying to solve the `/etc/modprobe` problem?
Jun 10 16:46:32 <lbt> Saviq: we don't have a signer
Jun 10 16:47:05 <ahel> not now. sooner or later. now i need to work gabrbedd. :)
Jun 10 16:47:11 <ahel> but i'll let you know
Jun 10 16:47:13 <Saviq> lbt: ah that might be that, then... any idea why my package hangs in "building" state when the log says it's finished?
Jun 10 16:47:36 <Saviq> it's the only package being built atm
Jun 10 16:47:56 <lbt> Saviq: will look
Jun 10 16:47:57 <ahel> using arch i needed to blacklist 2700usb and then it was used to load "usb" that would work
Jun 10 16:48:10 <alterego> Is it possible to push a project into gitorious without making it using their we iface first?
Jun 10 16:48:16 <ahel> but here i have rt2870sta
Jun 10 16:48:22 <alterego> I've done a git init in my new project and I want to publish it
Jun 10 16:48:30 <gabrbedd> ahel: Instead of /etc/modprobe (which MeeGo doesn't do) -- try adding some manual commands in /etc/rc.local
Jun 10 16:48:35 <sjokkis> gabrbedd: i noticed, but i'm trying to contact him directly, and he isn't responding on email
Jun 10 16:49:14 <gabrbedd> sjokkis: he may be AFK.  I think he travels a bunch.
Jun 10 16:49:37 <sjokkis> ah
Jun 10 16:49:43 <Saviq> alterego: it's not possible in github, suppose it's so in gitorious, too
Jun 10 16:49:50 <alterego> m'kay
Jun 10 16:49:51 <alterego> Thanks
Jun 10 16:50:24 <Saviq> lbt: actually... there's something bigger...
Jun 10 16:50:53 <Saviq> lbt: kernel panic for Fedora_15 builds?
Jun 10 16:51:03 <lcuk> Saviq, there is a perl app to do repository creation in github
Jun 10 16:51:46 <lbt> Saviq: url
Jun 10 16:52:00 <Saviq> lbt: hard, it gets reset
Jun 10 16:52:04 <Saviq> https://build.pub.meego.com/monitor
Jun 10 16:52:09 <Saviq> moving target
Jun 10 16:52:39 <jarock> hello  people I have my  nokia n900 with broken  Meego have made ​​the  flash forget to take  out sd card zuflashen  unfortunately now I have no means or  can someone help me
Jun 10 16:52:48 <Saviq> lbt: will try and catch one for you
Jun 10 16:53:08 <Saviq> lbt: should happen soon in https://build.pub.meego.com/package/live_build_log?arch=i586&package=osc&project=home%3ASaviq&repository=Fedora_15
Jun 10 16:53:14 <lbt> I see it
Jun 10 16:54:16 <Saviq> that's different than a moment ago
Jun 10 16:55:09 <Saviq> the same happened on i586
Jun 10 16:55:12 <lbt> http://pastie.org/2048514 ?
Jun 10 16:55:14 <lbt> yes
Jun 10 16:55:44 <Saviq> yup
Jun 10 17:02:16 <jarock> what can I  do if the u  key is not in  nokia n900 it is  kernel panic
Jun 10 17:07:16 <Saviq> jarock: difficult to understand your question
Jun 10 17:07:24 <Saviq> do you mean that u doesn't work for you?
Jun 10 17:07:54 <Saviq> I assume you mean while booting for flasher?
Jun 10 17:09:22 <jarock> I want to flash it and Meego forgot  the memory card out  to make now is not  the flash
Jun 10 17:10:13 <jarock> yes I  can not flash via  usb since the same kernel  panic occurs
Jun 10 17:10:43 <lcuk> remove battery,  insert usb cable between computer and n900.  start flasher utility.  when it says "device not found, waiting..."  insert battery into n900, thank me later.
Jun 10 17:13:03 <jarock> does not  want to have flash on it  because Meego is a  fault happened
Jun 10 17:17:57 <jarock> I can  not flash :(
Jun 10 17:19:47 <lcuk> jarock, when you plug it into usb, what is the charging indicator light doing?
Jun 10 17:19:52 <lcuk> throbbing or solidly on
Jun 10 17:21:54 <jarock> I Meego  on it, he flashed finds the  root directory and then  comes not have anything on the kernel panic flashed  EMMC
Jun 10 17:22:11 <jarock> the  orange led lights up and  it vibrates briefly
Jun 10 17:23:32 <GeneralAntilles> How do these people who have no idea how to unsubscribe keep ending up subscribed to the lists. . . .
Jun 10 17:24:07 <jarock> does anyone know how much it will cost close shop  in nsc?
Jun 10 17:25:10 <jarock> :-(
Jun 10 17:28:09 <jarock> You can not force the flash somehow
Jun 10 17:34:44 <jarock> does anyone know  how expensive it is  to repair the nokia n900
Jun 10 17:36:31 <Saviq> jarock: you don't need to repair it, if it's running
Jun 10 17:36:53 <Saviq> have you followed lcuk's directions exactly?
Jun 10 17:37:37 <jarock> I can  not even do it with  but will not do anymore and I  can not flash
Jun 10 17:38:30 <jarock> yes I  did but I have vmlinux  and everything that has ever been destroyed  on the EMMC
Jun 10 17:39:40 <jarock> that is the  problem so I can not flash in usb interface jumps  he briefly but only  as a state of charge
Jun 10 17:39:55 <Saviq> did you: 1) turn it off 2) remove the battery 3) connect via usb 4) start flasher and wait for "waiting..." 5) put the battery back in
Jun 10 17:40:16 <Saviq> what OS are you on?
Jun 10 17:40:26 <jarock> meego
Jun 10 17:40:48 <Saviq> your host
Jun 10 17:40:55 <Saviq> your computer, not the phone
Jun 10 17:40:56 <jarock> ubuntu
Jun 10 17:41:21 <jarock> Ubuntu 10.04 on my computer
Jun 10 17:41:23 <Saviq> and how does the device behave exactly when you follow the steps above?
Jun 10 17:43:17 <jarock> if I  take out battery and  then connect usb cable  the led flashes but only  1 time then I start  so because "flasher-3.5"  then no battery inside  reakion
Jun 10 17:44:03 <Saviq> try holding 'u' while putting the battery back in - it should stay in flash mode
Jun 10 17:44:37 <jarock> ok mom
Jun 10 17:45:03 <Saviq> I'm not your mom
Jun 10 17:45:44 <jarock> does not work
Jun 10 17:46:21 <Saviq> are you sure your usb cable is ok and plugged in correctly?
Jun 10 17:47:55 <jarock> yes I  am. It is as if I had the flash-mode function deleted
Jun 10 17:48:38 <lcuk> I asked on maemo,  when you just plug in the power/usb cable, does the led light show solid orange colour, or flashing orange?
Jun 10 17:50:07 <jarock> led is not blinking
Jun 10 17:52:14 <jarock> I can  send the new flash  and if so how  much does it cost
Jun 10 17:52:17 <jarock> ?
Jun 10 17:53:59 <smoku> lcuk, it's pulsating orange while charging
Jun 10 17:54:32 <lcuk> smoku, I was not asking you
Jun 10 17:54:40 <lcuk> jarock, plug in the usb for an hour or so
Jun 10 17:54:49 <lcuk> if the battery is really really low
Jun 10 17:55:02 <lcuk> it will charge very slowly and show constant orange light
Jun 10 17:55:16 <lcuk> then sometime after it will have enough charge to do normal stuff
Jun 10 17:55:19 <lcuk> that is my experience
Jun 10 17:55:58 <alterego> Think tonight I'll have an Omlette
Jun 10 17:56:01 <jarock> t was  just a txt init  so where is kernel  panic in there
Jun 10 17:56:08 * alterego wanders off to make dins.
Jun 10 17:56:11 <alterego> bbiab
Jun 10 17:56:24 <lcuk> alterego, \o email me some of that
Jun 10 17:56:49 <smoku> lcuk, who were you asking then? :)
Jun 10 17:56:56 <Saviq> alterego: why an Omlette and not an omlette (or even better - an omelette)?
Jun 10 17:57:12 <Saviq> smoku: he was trying to help jarock
Jun 10 17:57:23 <alterego> Because an Omlette is much bigger than an omlette.
Jun 10 17:57:29 <alterego> Anyway, FOOD
Jun 10 17:57:56 <smoku> Saviq, got it. but it looked like a generic question ;-)
Jun 10 17:58:19 <jarock> I  have constant orange light
Jun 10 18:00:15 <jarock> He briefly shows the nokia logo then  he goes to a console via
Jun 10 18:00:38 <Stskeeps> lcuk, does n900 have pixel doubling?
Jun 10 18:02:12 <smoku> Stskeeps, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=47900&highlight=doubling
Jun 10 18:02:41 <lcuk> Stskeeps, not that I have seen but ask RST38h or javis
Jun 10 18:02:48 <lcuk> I know the XV mode does
Jun 10 18:02:52 <lcuk> but that is a different question
Jun 10 18:03:07 <lcuk> what are you wondering?
Jun 10 18:03:41 <jarock> how  expensive is that in one chicken
Jun 10 18:04:46 <jarock> how much  does it cost to flash the nokia  n900 allow?
Jun 10 18:07:19 <lcuk> jarock, what language do you speak?
Jun 10 18:07:27 <jarock> german
Jun 10 18:07:40 <lcuk> the chicken is expensive
Jun 10 18:07:53 <lcuk> plug in usb onto n900.  do not try and flash it, just wait.
Jun 10 18:08:01 <lcuk> until light flashes amber.
Jun 10 18:08:20 <Stskeeps> plug in wall charger
Jun 10 18:11:22 <jarock> lcuk can you german?
Jun 10 18:11:49 <lcuk> I can only ask for a beer and a kebab, sorry.
Jun 10 18:12:08 <lcuk> Can somebody please german to jarock
Jun 10 18:13:13 <jarock> have it  on charger
Jun 10 18:13:35 <Saviq> ok, so I got qemu-arm and qemu-gl fixed for Fedora_15, how do I SR it to build.meego.com?
Jun 10 18:13:42 <jarock> there does not blink
Jun 10 18:14:04 <lcuk> jarock, ok.  wait now for 60 minutes.
Jun 10 18:14:08 <lcuk> until it flashes
Jun 10 18:14:13 <lcuk> blinks
Jun 10 18:15:09 <jarock> lcuk: and if it  does not blink
Jun 10 18:16:01 * Saviq faceslaps
Jun 10 18:16:04 <jarock> Can this be repaired  at the Nokia service center?
Jun 10 18:16:33 <lcuk> if in warranty, yes I believe so.  but wait for now.
Jun 10 18:16:55 <alterego> That was a bloody good (O)mlette.
Jun 10 18:18:44 <jarock> ok thank  you in advance times when I can  then call you back tomorrow
Jun 10 18:23:23 <jarock> See you later
Jun 10 19:53:18 <Saviq> lbt: here's the other error I encountered http://pastie.org/2049210
Jun 10 19:55:00 <lbt> all using fedora 15?
Jun 10 19:55:05 <Saviq> yes
Jun 10 19:55:41 <Saviq> the target is taken directly from build.opensuse.org, right?
Jun 10 19:55:48 <lbt> it is
Jun 10 19:55:54 <lbt> inter-obs link
Jun 10 19:56:01 <Saviq> I'm gonna try to build on b.o.o
Jun 10 19:56:08 <lbt> it could be due to worker configs though
Jun 10 19:56:19 <lbt> eg running 11.4 (or 11.2)
Jun 10 19:56:49 <Saviq> yeah the "kernel too old" probably is due to 11.2 being the host
Jun 10 19:56:49 <lbt> yeah:  kernel too old
Jun 10 19:57:02 <Saviq> but the missing libmount.so.1...
Jun 10 19:57:31 <lbt> yes - I found a strange bug report on that
Jun 10 19:57:43 <lbt> but that worker was using loop mount
Jun 10 19:57:47 <lbt> which is really odd
Jun 10 20:32:15 <sergiusens> lbt: can you grant me access to the community obs? I'd be building stuff like zim and other utils/apps
Jun 10 20:32:50 <lbt> sure
Jun 10 20:32:54 <lbt> meego account
Jun 10 20:33:03 <lbt> zim ... neat :)
Jun 10 20:33:47 <lbt> sergiusens: accout same as nick I hope ... done
Jun 10 20:34:04 <sergiusens> yes it is, I'll try it out :-)
Jun 10 20:39:27 <sergiusens> working fine, ty
Jun 10 20:39:41 * sergiusens now needs to fine the time to get something in place there
Jun 10 20:39:54 <lbt> good - have fun
Jun 10 20:59:34 <berndhs> sign up requires a company name: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/publications/compliance/five-step-compliance-process-for-foss-identification-and-review
Jun 10 21:24:07 <xoan> BestiaH: hi
Jun 10 21:24:20 <Saviq> lbt: built fine on b.o.o
Jun 10 21:24:39 <alterego> Damnit, can't use the map data from maemo/symbian in QML maps
Jun 10 21:24:57 <lbt> Saviq: FYI - some workers weren't upgraded to 11.4
Jun 10 21:25:13 <BestiaH> Hi hi
Jun 10 21:25:41 <Saviq> lbt: yeah but I think only the "kernel too old" is related to that
Jun 10 21:25:45 <Saviq> but maybe not
Jun 10 21:33:33 <BestiaH> Hi there!!
Jun 10 21:33:50 <BestiaH> I'm testing meego in N900
Jun 10 21:34:34 <BestiaH> Anybody could tell me where can I find the specifications?
Jun 10 21:35:53 <SpeedEvil> Specifications?
Jun 10 21:36:04 <BestiaH> Yes!
Jun 10 21:37:04 <BestiaH> of meego.... where is describe how it is suppose to behave :P
Jun 10 21:37:42 <CosmoHill> alterego: fancy helping me file a bug?
Jun 10 21:38:34 <SpeedEvil> BestiaH: The source.
Jun 10 21:38:59 <BestiaH> wait a secon alterego
Jun 10 21:39:04 <lbt> BestiaH: I think you should go to #meego-arm
Jun 10 21:39:11 <BestiaH> The source???
Jun 10 21:39:15 <BestiaH> aha
Jun 10 21:39:16 <lbt> and ask there how to help with testing
Jun 10 21:39:24 <BestiaH> megoo-arm
Jun 10 21:39:31 <BestiaH> thanks
Jun 10 21:39:35 <alterego> CosmoHill: wassup?
Jun 10 21:39:47 <BestiaH> ;)
Jun 10 21:40:22 <CosmoHill> alterego: tar is old and doesn't reconisie that xz is a compression]
Jun 10 21:40:32 <alterego> That's not a bug
Jun 10 21:40:45 <alterego> The new version of tar uses a new version of the GPL, and apparently that's something that MeeGo doesn't want.
Jun 10 21:40:48 <alterego> Same with Bash
Jun 10 21:40:49 <alterego> sorry :/
Jun 10 21:48:39 <CosmoHill> thanks
Jun 10 21:48:52 <phaeron> maybe bsdtar would be better
Jun 10 21:53:08 <CosmoHill> something where I can go tar xf file.tar.xz and it not go "wtf"
Jun 10 21:53:22 <gabrbedd> alterego: uh-oh.  MeeGo is trying to avoid GPLv3?  That's the first I've heard of that.
Jun 10 21:54:17 <SpeedEvil> GPLV3 has real issues for manufacturers
Jun 10 21:54:30 <javispedro> meego favors lgpl2
Jun 10 21:54:32 <SpeedEvil> From the makers view, tivoisation can be a big argument
Jun 10 21:55:29 <gabrbedd> SpeedEvil: yeah... I saw this coming.  Just the first time I've seen it become manifest.
Jun 10 21:56:05 <alterego> Well, I heard this same issue with tar a while back and someone explained it then, that's why I'm informed ;)
Jun 10 21:56:07 <javispedro> imho a can of worms. the last thing the project needs atm.
Jun 10 21:56:21 <gabrbedd> alterego: ok, thx.
Jun 10 21:56:31 <gabrbedd> javispedro: FULL ACK.
Jun 10 21:56:37 <phaeron> from the man page bsdtar looks like it supports xz
Jun 10 21:56:55 <alterego> It's not anything new, I imagine it was a choice from the get go.
Jun 10 21:57:52 <javispedro> alterego: it is (same policy from nokia...), but still a can of worms.
Jun 10 21:57:58 <javispedro> I can only pray the fact remains hidden enough.
Jun 10 21:58:10 <pebcak> you bet it won't
Jun 10 21:58:36 * gabrbedd searches wiki to see if this is tribal knowledge
Jun 10 21:58:37 <Saviq> I can't even blame them, really...
Jun 10 21:58:39 <SpeedEvil> Someone will bring out a locked-down meego device - guaranteed.
Jun 10 21:58:45 <SpeedEvil> For example - IVI
Jun 10 21:58:53 <alterego> javispedro: what is your concern?
Jun 10 21:58:55 <SpeedEvil> Ok - you've bought an expensive map licence.
Jun 10 21:59:01 <javispedro> gabrbedd: https://meego.com/about/licensing-policy
Jun 10 21:59:07 <alterego> I don't understand the "can of worms"?
Jun 10 21:59:10 <SpeedEvil> Now, it comes with a TOS that is going to require locking down the device.
Jun 10 21:59:12 <SpeedEvil> (forex)
Jun 10 21:59:34 <alterego> But then I'm not up on gpl law or anthing ...
Jun 10 21:59:50 <javispedro> alterego: think the periodical flamewars between bsd vs gpl
Jun 10 21:59:50 <SpeedEvil> alterego: GPLV3 tries to outlaw tivoisation.
Jun 10 22:00:07 <DawnFoster> for example, most people involved in IVI said they won't use anything with gplv3
Jun 10 22:00:31 <lbt> phaeron: they're not interested in a useful answer ... arguing about licenses is more fun ;)
Jun 10 22:01:00 <berndhs> well, the key is the start of the second paragraph, right
Jun 10 22:01:03 <phaeron> :D
Jun 10 22:01:13 <berndhs> "In particular, the requirement is to use licenses compatible with the OSI Open Source definition and use the software and licenses in a way that enables proprietary extensions"
Jun 10 22:01:39 <alterego> anyway, bedtime for me, g'night.
Jun 10 22:02:23 <gabrbedd> javispedro: haha, i just came back to paste exactly that!
Jun 10 22:02:37 <javispedro> =)
Jun 10 22:03:46 <gabrbedd> javispedro: Although, it's a carefully worded statement designed to avoid opening cans of worms. :-)
Jun 10 22:03:53 * gabrbedd will look the other way.
Jun 10 22:04:25 <user0> can i get an example of what will still be the community's job to develop for the developers edition of meego to get it fully working on the n900?
Jun 10 22:04:42 <user0> like whats gona be missing after the projects done
Jun 10 22:04:46 <gabrbedd> alterego: night night!
Jun 10 22:05:48 <gabrbedd> user0: I think they have a wiki page on wiki.meego.com.  The DE guys also tend to hange out in #meego-handset.
Jun 10 22:06:32 <alterego> user0: the project will never be done.
Jun 10 22:06:42 <alterego> As long as there are people working on it.
Jun 10 22:06:56 <gabrbedd> javispedro: TBH, I'm not a big fan of GPLv3, anyway.
Jun 10 22:07:03 <alterego> There's no end of project deadline.
Jun 10 22:07:26 <javispedro> gabrbedd: well, I am, and thus this pisses me off. But I will also look the other way.
Jun 10 22:07:32 <user0> interesting
Jun 10 22:07:50 <alterego> Not really, it's an open source project.
Jun 10 22:07:56 <gabrbedd> javispedro: :-)
Jun 10 22:08:03 <user0> lol
Jun 10 22:08:28 <gabrbedd> I figure the v2 vs v3 thing is going to get very uncomfortable (everywhere) round about next year.
Jun 10 22:08:49 <user0> so alterego, you think the guys from nokia will still be working on the project ?
Jun 10 22:09:04 <gabrbedd> user0: N900 DE is a little like a Debian project.  Community driven.... community timeline. :-)
Jun 10 22:09:09 <user0> that is after nokia stop paying them for it
Jun 10 22:09:11 <alterego> We're doing it for the future of the N900, it's the only NIT device that's had a life as long as it has and especially no with MeeGo N900 CoEd.
Jun 10 22:09:21 <alterego> user0: paying who?
Jun 10 22:09:40 <gabrbedd> user0: AFAIK, Nokia hasn't put up a penny for the N900 DE.  It's totally community.
Jun 10 22:09:45 <alterego> I don't get paid for it.
Jun 10 22:09:50 <user0> :O
Jun 10 22:10:15 <gabrbedd> user0: This is witnessed by the fact that it's distributed on a non-meego.com server.
Jun 10 22:10:23 <user0> well thats good news.
Jun 10 22:10:37 <newbie007> the n900 is the best phone I know of
Jun 10 22:10:58 <alterego> Actually, that doesn't matter so much, only the images are distributed on maemo.org
Jun 10 22:11:06 <alterego> The packages are all from meego.com obs
Jun 10 22:11:31 <user0> alterego : you must be one of the guys in that video i watched yesterday
Jun 10 22:12:06 <alterego> user0: which video?
Jun 10 22:12:07 <user0> cant find the link anymore
Jun 10 22:12:24 <alterego> Was it the San Francisco de session?
Jun 10 22:12:47 <user0> yap.
Jun 10 22:12:57 <javispedro> alterego: sts technically gets paid ;)
Jun 10 22:13:06 <alterego> Then no, I was the guy Jukka phoned :)
Jun 10 22:13:17 <user0> :D
Jun 10 22:13:20 <alterego> javispedro: well everyone else does but me ;)
Jun 10 22:15:32 <alterego> Sage and Stskeeps get paid through their consultancy firms, jukka and msugano are Nokia
Jun 10 22:15:41 <user0> alterego : when the platform is ready to be using on the n900 to develop for meego , they will stop paying them. correct?
Jun 10 22:15:42 <user0> :)
Jun 10 22:15:52 <alterego> No
Jun 10 22:15:56 <user0> :S
Jun 10 22:16:08 <alterego> The platform is already for meego development.
Jun 10 22:16:22 <user0> used*
Jun 10 22:16:41 <alterego> What do you think it's lacking right now?
Jun 10 22:16:42 <newbie007> I thought the n900 is dead - meaning they won't produce any more, next would be perhaps n901 or something
Jun 10 22:17:25 <alterego> newbie007: Nokia don't make them anymore, if that's what you mean.
Jun 10 22:18:12 <user0> alterego : http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Status
Jun 10 22:18:19 <newbie007> so why target this device (although it is cool) why not set  sites on the nook color (same architechure but newer/faster)
Jun 10 22:18:41 <user0> ...
Jun 10 22:18:43 <alterego> Because the nook isn't a handset, and we like handsets
Jun 10 22:19:13 <javispedro> not to mention that the n900 probably has slightly more documented hardware.
Jun 10 22:19:36 <alterego> And we have all the drivers.
Jun 10 22:19:53 <newbie007> I need my n900 as a phone so I wouldn't be so daring to switch the OS, hope to get to that point though
Jun 10 22:20:01 <alterego> user0: exactly, we've already pretty much reached the initial goals for the CoEd project.
Jun 10 22:20:06 <newbie007> is the nook color so different ?
Jun 10 22:20:16 <alterego> So how would you like it to improve? :)
Jun 10 22:20:59 <alterego> newbie007: dunno, I do know people have got MeeGo running on it.
Jun 10 22:21:23 <newbie007> oh I'm just behind the curve since I need it as a phone, Is meego ready for the n900 (meaning phone)
Jun 10 22:21:35 <alterego> Yup,
Jun 10 22:21:49 <newbie007> wow I didn't know
Jun 10 22:21:53 <alterego> It's a little rought around the edges
Jun 10 22:22:12 <alterego> But you can make and recieve calls, using my nice qml dialer
Jun 10 22:22:23 <alterego> (that's what I do, the qml dialer program)
Jun 10 22:22:40 <newbie007> my understanding is that meego doesn't  work with the screen on the nookcolor, the videos we saw were a chroot actually running  android
Jun 10 22:22:42 <user0> alterego : so with a few more green tables on that page it should be ready to be used as a primary OS for the n900 ?
Jun 10 22:22:55 <alterego> Today I implemented a little app which imports your contacts from maemo into meego
Jun 10 22:23:11 <newbie007> if I could make a call from the command line,, then I'd totally switch
Jun 10 22:23:28 <newbie007> ./dial.sh 555-555-5555
Jun 10 22:23:32 <newbie007> that would be cool
Jun 10 22:23:35 <alterego> user0: depending who you are, it's already quite ready, I run it myself for my personal phone, but my work phone is still maemo
Jun 10 22:23:57 <alterego> I can tell you the command line to make a call if you like ;)
Jun 10 22:23:58 <user0> the guy presenting in that video says its gona have a few features missing that need to be worked on by the community afterwords
Jun 10 22:24:10 <user0> or thats what i understood from him
Jun 10 22:24:13 <newbie007> ha ha cool
Jun 10 22:24:34 <alterego> user0: well, the important thing is we have all the hardware enablers, so we can use all hardware in the N900
Jun 10 22:24:35 <user0> alterego : lovely.
Jun 10 22:24:55 <alterego> Then it's up to the community to write apps and make meego ce what they want it to be
Jun 10 22:25:02 <newbie007> I'm refferring to a post from wmarone at http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3037&page=4&highlight=nook
Jun 10 22:25:38 <alterego> write/port I mean
Jun 10 22:26:12 <alterego> What we aimed to do and are doing and have done, is bring a functioning phone os to the N900 in the form of meego
Jun 10 22:26:42 <alterego> That means, out-of-the-box, you can make and recieve calls, send text messages, have your contacts, browse the web.
Jun 10 22:26:51 <alterego> These are the basic use cases.
Jun 10 22:27:00 <javispedro> and have a fully functional ANSI terminal emulator!
Jun 10 22:27:04 <newbie007> I just want almost-ti, abiword, and gnumeric and I'd be happy
Jun 10 22:27:14 <user0> "aimed to do and are doing and have done"
Jun 10 22:27:24 <user0> how about "will keep on doing" :)
Jun 10 22:27:37 <alterego> In the user0 that too :)
Jun 10 22:27:56 <alterego> urgh, remove those first words :P
Jun 10 22:28:10 <user0> :)
Jun 10 22:28:47 <alterego> So we're improving what we've done, the biggest thing now is performance, mainly, app start up times.
Jun 10 22:29:05 <alterego> And reducing memory usage, to stop swap hell.
Jun 10 22:29:26 <alterego> But other than that (and a few small bugs) we're kinda at a loss as to what to do now.
Jun 10 22:29:39 <alterego> If you've got a requirement, then let us know :)
Jun 10 22:29:41 <newbie007> will there ever be another (newer) phone that  can run meego ?
Jun 10 22:29:49 <ShadowJK> abiword and gnumeric would be "interesting" on meego ;)
Jun 10 22:29:58 <alterego> newbie007: yes
Jun 10 22:30:16 * user0 is enjoying this conversation
Jun 10 22:30:21 <newbie007> in the works ?
Jun 10 22:30:33 <alterego> newbie007: apparently so :)
Jun 10 22:30:36 <newbie007> cool
Jun 10 22:30:39 <user0> im getting another n900 tomorrow , the first one got stolen
Jun 10 22:30:44 <thiago_home> newbie007: has been for a year and a half (or more)
Jun 10 22:30:51 <user0> good to see people still developing for it
Jun 10 22:30:56 <newbie007> it really is the best phone
Jun 10 22:31:00 <alterego> The Harmattan device, will be a target for MeeGo Community Edition, like the N900 is.
Jun 10 22:31:06 <user0> newbie007 : indeed
Jun 10 22:32:20 * ShadowJK suspects reducing the enormous memory usages, and teaching kernel about flash based storage devices (heck, if someone would teach devs first) are tasks that probably never end
Jun 10 22:32:25 <alterego> user0: we even have the camera working quite well L)
Jun 10 22:32:40 <thiago_home> ShadowJK: don't forget power consumption
Jun 10 22:32:52 <ShadowJK> oh and isn't there newer kernels to keep up to date with, wayland move, etc :P
Jun 10 22:33:00 <thiago_home> heck, I keep having to teach people not to use "sleep" in their code
Jun 10 22:33:04 <user0> alterego , i remember him saying something about that
Jun 10 22:33:09 <alterego> But there are certainly things I miss, basically apps I use all the time on maem
Jun 10 22:33:19 <alterego> Like conboy
Jun 10 22:33:24 <user0> :D
Jun 10 22:34:31 <alterego> Anyway, I really must get to bed now
Jun 10 22:34:36 <user0> g'night.
Jun 10 22:34:48 <newbie007> there is a program on most linux distros  "calcurses" I think. It's a textbased calendar/scheduling system. If that program were fully integrated with the cell phone's scheduler, that would be pretty cool
Jun 10 22:35:06 <alterego> Got a weekend of hacking to look forward to ;)
Jun 10 22:35:18 <alterego> g'night
Jun 10 22:35:28 <newbie007> thanks for the info!
Jun 10 22:35:49 <ShadowJK> thiago_home, oh yes. "flash isn't magic, it's worse than harddrives, much worse", and "if you poll I'll strangle you with an elephant"
Jun 10 22:36:52 <newbie007> ShadowJK: could you explain your dislike of flash ?
Jun 10 22:38:01 <user0> im assuming , closed source or something about buggy linux support
Jun 10 22:38:07 <user0> :P
Jun 10 22:39:29 <javispedro> I use to read a blog from a MS guy, "the old new thing", and they usually have this discussion of how to enforce "good manners" on applications
Jun 10 22:39:41 <thiago_home> raymond chen's blog
Jun 10 22:39:45 <thiago_home> very good read
Jun 10 22:39:56 <javispedro> there was a quote this week or the previous, "non enforceable law is not law"
Jun 10 22:40:20 <javispedro> which I found inspiring, in the sense that understanding it is probably the best way to "forbid sleep" ;)
Jun 10 22:40:32 <newbie007> ms bought out skype and installed some malware
Jun 10 22:40:32 <ShadowJK> It's not that I hate flash based storage, it's just that all our disk schedulers and filesystems have 25 years of optimizations for rotational media, and thus able to slow down a 12Megabyte/s write capable flash storage to 0.1 Mbyte/s
Jun 10 22:40:33 <thiago_home> what was the one I liked...
Jun 10 22:40:46 <thiago_home> oh, "to illustrate our superior intellect, we'll ask you a question you cannot answer" :-)
Jun 10 22:41:14 <thiago_home> he was talking about how developers often resort to asking the user a question when they can't figure out what to do
Jun 10 22:41:27 <thiago_home> and invariably the user's answer will be "get me out of this dialog"
Jun 10 22:41:58 <thiago_home> search for "The default answer is Cancel"
Jun 10 22:42:37 <newbie007> I wonder if flash will make filesystems obsolete someday, it will eventually become a black box I would think
Jun 10 22:44:26 <javispedro> thiago_home: an experience I had: elderly woman: clicks on the close button of firefox, gets the "Do you want me to close all tabs?" dialog, doesn't read it, closes the dialog, proceeds to close tab by tab manually, the clicks on the window close button again
Jun 10 22:44:34 <newbie007> I mean if flash is going to put something somewhere regardless of where the filesystem thinks it is, then seems like unnecessary overhead to  have a filesystem
Jun 10 22:44:38 <javispedro> cue sense of accomplishment because this time "she didn't get a error message".
Jun 10 22:45:45 <thiago_home> newbie007: a filesystem is more than just "where did my bytes go"
Jun 10 22:50:26 <smoku> newbie007, flat-filesystem is not a new thing
Jun 10 22:51:40 <Scelt> okay misters
Jun 10 22:51:53 <newbie007> no I get, I was just thinking out loud
Jun 10 22:51:56 <Scelt> http://repository.maemo.org/meego/n900-de/ - which one from there is okay to run?
Jun 10 22:52:06 <Scelt> having the "no mmc card found" problem now
Jun 10 22:52:46 <Scelt> wiki says (you need the raw.bz2 file for the daily acceptance image) and tried with a daily acceptance image but something isn't okay
Jun 10 22:52:46 <ShadowJK> javispedro, oh I've seen the opposite. That tab-saving and restore functionality resulting in people opening firefox, getting old tabs+new tab, clicking bookmark to favourite tv stream, suddenly having multiple streams playing simultaneously thinking their computer is posessed
Jun 10 22:54:08 <javispedro> yeah, tab-saving has surprised me a few times even.
Jun 10 22:57:06 <ShadowJK> on desktop I can't live without tab-saving :P
Jun 10 22:57:14 <Scelt> http://repository.maemo.org/meego/n900-de/daily/1.2.0.90.3.20110606.2.DE.2011-06-07.1/images/mg-handset-armv7nhl-n900-de-acceptance/mg-handset-armv7nhl-n900-de-acceptance-1.2.0.90.3.20110606.2.DE.2011-06-07.1-mmcblk0p.raw.bz2
Jun 10 22:57:20 <Scelt> shoudl that work with n900?
Jun 10 22:59:16 <Saviq> hrm hrm where do I get the current madde-sysroot... the 07.06 builds seem to have failed at building the madde-sysroot image
Jun 10 23:00:20 <Scelt> okay, reinstalling uboot fixed it
Jun 10 23:00:26 <Scelt> thanks for the help!
Jun 10 23:00:33 <Scelt> troubleshooting would hurt in wiki
Jun 10 23:00:44 <Scelt> +not
Jun 11 00:21:42 <CosmoHill> cyas
Jun 11 00:21:46 <gabrbedd> g'night!
Jun 11 00:23:44 <Saviq> does the meego online sdk installer actually install 12GB regardless of the targets?
Jun 11 00:25:54 <phl0x81> could be, that it gets you all the good stuff ;)
Jun 11 00:28:36 <berndhs> they could give a formula for space required, based on the targets - but people would complain that its off by 3 bytes
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jun 11 02:59:57 2011