**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 03 02:59:57 2011 Aug 03 08:37:08 hello all Aug 03 08:50:01 Situation at my workplace in Sunnyvale just keeps getting more ugly: http://wl4.peer360.com/b/hjdv5csf5lEbR3N08jzL/main.asp?hl=105502532**** Aug 03 08:51:01 It's bad enough that there are netbooks running Windows showing a closed loop featuring Valtteri talking about MeeGo in the meanwhile. (This is NOT Valtteri's doing, I know.) Aug 03 10:50:16 so success amongst the other stuff yesterday. Aug 03 10:50:21 * lcuk wrote first .spec file Aug 03 10:50:38 lbt: anything that someone (e.g. me) can help with the formeego.org effort? Aug 03 10:50:47 lbt: yay! Aug 03 10:50:57 s/lbt/lcuk/ Aug 03 10:50:57 timoph meant: lcuk: yay! Aug 03 10:51:00 :D Aug 03 10:51:12 lcuk: Directlyorusing spectacle? Aug 03 10:51:23 timoph, the packages are building, but missing some components Aug 03 10:51:28 timoph: there must be... Aug 03 10:51:30 Jaffa, short, simple direct ones Aug 03 10:51:43 I just started with the .tar.gz that I would submit to maemo autobuilder Aug 03 10:51:56 and very simple .spec file outside Aug 03 10:52:15 lbt: could someone involved with it setup a wikipage or something so that people would know how/where to contribute Aug 03 10:52:38 timoph, I think it is stillbeing digested Aug 03 10:52:49 phone ... bbiam Aug 03 10:53:04 Jaffa, once I wrote the .spec and submitted it Aug 03 10:53:16 it was a case of tweaking and reading the build log Aug 03 10:53:23 so really no different to autobuilder Aug 03 10:56:19 what difference to meego would it make if aegis were fully open and implemented on meego core? Aug 03 10:56:24 ie for any of the uxes Aug 03 10:59:19 lcuk: I thought it is -> https://meego.gitorious.org/meego-platform-security Aug 03 11:00:20 Indeed, although "(some of) the architects" have said it's not appropriate for MeeGo anymore Aug 03 11:01:45 lbt: Have LF been clear that they're happy with COBS and repo.pub.meego.com containing installable packages? Aug 03 11:05:50 no Aug 03 11:05:59 thanks timoph Aug 03 11:14:40 lbt: So basing a solution around that would be risky, but perhaps a stepping stone? Aug 03 11:14:49 hello! Aug 03 11:15:21 Jaffa: the stated problem and solution aren't consistent IMHO Aug 03 11:15:56 lbt: Having apps.formeego.org provide OCS info to installers on device to install packages and repos from repo.pub.meego.com seems easy but, as you say, inconsistent. Aug 03 11:16:27 since meego.com will actually distribute the binaries Aug 03 11:16:54 they've removed the minor threat of linking whilst retaining the major of distributing.... Aug 03 11:17:18 lbt: Almost like the whole thing hascome from lawyers without an appropriate understanding of the Internet and no feedback/filtering fromLF folks who do Aug 03 11:17:18 so IMHO ... either this is anti-H or c.obs will be next Aug 03 11:17:31 * timoph nods Aug 03 11:17:33 Jaffa, side topic, https://build.pub.meego.com/package/files?package=attitude&project=home%3Ajaffa adding .spec file at that level (should) allow the package to be buildable for n9x0-ce too Aug 03 11:17:53 lcuk: Indeed, one of the things onmy TODO :) Aug 03 11:18:00 lol Aug 03 11:19:36 * Jaffa bemoans the lack of TSG leadership, or even visibility, on this. Aug 03 11:20:04 But then the Internet's put me in a grumpy mood today Aug 03 11:20:07 well you were on holiday :P Aug 03 11:20:26 lcuk: ;-) Aug 03 11:20:33 the thought if to fork or fight does occasionally pop up. Aug 03 11:21:20 But at what level? Aug 03 11:21:42 Maybe we could set up a ForMeeGo organisation & council ;-) Aug 03 11:21:43 what? mount an assault on LF HQ? Aug 03 11:22:00 fighting=argue and making an effort to change things Aug 03 11:22:18 "vote for option3" Aug 03 11:22:33 * lbt considers making it a proposition Aug 03 11:22:48 the only place the project really works is on the factory floor, management seems missing and invisible Aug 03 11:22:55 I'd feel more for community run project with LF as trademark holder and compliance body? Aug 03 11:23:07 X-Fade: yep ... that's option 3 Aug 03 11:23:21 Because LF's cpmpliance process was really open to feedback? Aug 03 11:23:24 Unless LF gets more than the 2 or 3 people working on MeeGo now. Aug 03 11:23:44 Jaffa: i've succesfully gotten things changed, though Aug 03 11:23:54 on technical stuff Aug 03 11:24:01 Stskeeps: Indeed. Getting Arjan et al over to the shadow-project would be good Aug 03 11:25:04 i think a CE style thing is more appropiate since there's still something about having a good common meego core Aug 03 11:25:13 True Aug 03 11:25:15 and then focus on the open development of that Aug 03 11:25:19 * Stskeeps doesn't really care for the UX'es Aug 03 11:26:34 fd.o already deals with .desktop standards et al Aug 03 11:26:51 problem is always how to delimit meego core :) Aug 03 11:27:21 * lbt has an idea ... as usual Aug 03 11:27:28 :D Aug 03 11:27:41 back to the trim down core option Aug 03 11:27:54 Various bits of the project seem out of touch, or control. Management/leadership, meego-qa@, ecosystem management, ... Aug 03 11:27:56 then make the UXes and CE projects to build against core Aug 03 11:28:04 Jaffa: and that's the problem Aug 03 11:28:09 idea's are useless Aug 03 11:28:21 unless we can have some organisational leadership Aug 03 11:28:40 yep Aug 03 11:28:57 (+visible) Aug 03 11:28:59 putting MeeGo project into an nfp and setting up a new TSG Aug 03 11:29:07 (same as the old one for now) Aug 03 11:29:37 NFP = Not Fit for Purpose? Aug 03 11:29:49 not for profit Aug 03 11:29:50 * Stskeeps is inclined towards a MeeGo reconstructed approach where we show, with code and documented procedures how things should be done Aug 03 11:29:57 yep... Aug 03 11:30:15 preparing meego 2.0 ;) Aug 03 11:30:26 set that up as formeego.org ... nfp... reuse copies of the infra.... link to old infra Aug 03 11:31:10 setup TSG, establish quorum rules ... invite Imad, and give him seniority Aug 03 11:32:40 Call it Project SG or aomething Aug 03 11:32:52 * Stskeeps votes for Mer. Aug 03 11:32:55 * Stskeeps runs Aug 03 11:32:58 anybody knows how to add meego repos to n950? Aug 03 11:33:06 #harmattan Aug 03 11:33:07 Stskeeps: Error: "harmattan" is not a valid command. Aug 03 11:33:10 sivang, http://wiki.meego.com/Getting_started_with_OBS Aug 03 11:33:20 it is noted in there how to do it Aug 03 11:33:22 Stskeeps: oh thahnks Aug 03 11:33:28 thank you lcuk Aug 03 11:33:32 since jaffa and lardman created an ecellent getting started Aug 03 11:33:35 Architects have first comment on Technical matters Aug 03 11:33:49 * sivang notes this is the best device Nokia has produced after the successful N900. :) Aug 03 11:34:10 Stskeeps, why push everything n950 to #harmattan? Aug 03 11:34:11 I had tears in my eyes to the image of the amazing multitasking, specifically navigatin and closing tasks Aug 03 11:34:19 lcuk: that's where people are Aug 03 11:34:27 Trolls too, tho' Aug 03 11:34:27 lcuk: it really isn't on topic here Aug 03 11:34:29 are we not here also? Aug 03 11:34:33 Stskeeps: but if we keep it here, we show how good meego is :) Aug 03 11:34:41 timoph, from the obs side we are Aug 03 11:34:44 * sivang moves to #harmattan Aug 03 11:34:45 true Aug 03 11:35:16 hmm I can't join Aug 03 11:35:17 odd Aug 03 11:35:31 * timoph tries not to start yet another what is meego debate :) Aug 03 11:35:51 sivang, what app are you wanting to create, or do you just want repositories to download Aug 03 11:35:51 * sivang needs an armhlv7 skype deb Aug 03 11:36:07 :-) Aug 03 11:36:10 so, how about this.. we start out with the objective of meego 2.0 design, organisationally and code wise, shaping meego to the future. on code level we don't fork, but 2.0 comes with no obligation for backwards compat Aug 03 11:36:10 sivang: you just joined according to my client Aug 03 11:36:21 so we start with a meego core Aug 03 11:36:25 and slim it Aug 03 11:36:50 the problem still comes that end users expect normality Aug 03 11:37:10 Aren't many end-users Aug 03 11:37:11 and compatability with media etc Aug 03 11:37:15 stuff like skype Aug 03 11:38:13 meego itself is right to provide those corp apps, if we just remake mer Aug 03 11:38:24 we end up still missing the common things expected Aug 03 11:40:24 lcuk: that's where the community extras/surrounds/whatever steps in Aug 03 11:40:25 Stskeeps: Code submission processes are MeeGo "upstream" not 2.0 Aug 03 11:40:53 yes timoph and that ontop of a senbile vendor setup would do that Aug 03 11:41:04 Jaffa: right Aug 03 11:41:25 s/senbile/sensible/ Aug 03 11:41:25 lcuk meant: yes timoph and that ontop of a sensible vendor setup would do that Aug 03 11:41:39 Stskeeps: Perhaps it'snotpossible to fix without eother a wholesale fork, abandonning compatibility, only doing minor patches or fixing "upstream" Aug 03 11:42:19 I'd rather see a restructure than a fork. Aug 03 11:42:23 Jaffa: typing on a n950? :p Aug 03 11:42:37 X-Fade, ++ Aug 03 11:42:50 But yeah, things like not having an active TSG, invisible working groups etc, doesn't give a good impression atm. Aug 03 11:43:05 now for a long while lbt has been discussing the reference vendor Aug 03 11:43:20 X-Fade: WG's aren't invisible actually, at least IVI and TV Aug 03 11:43:31 Stskeeps: There are more :) Aug 03 11:43:58 And architect decisions aren't exactly discussed in public either? Aug 03 11:44:00 IT seems like the meego core stuff is still very much handled behind closed doors Aug 03 11:44:05 X-Fade, like the irc stats we see, based on discussions in this channel only Aug 03 11:44:09 timoph: iPad ;-) Aug 03 11:44:13 :D Aug 03 11:44:24 when we know that around the meegosphere many people are advancing and discussing things Aug 03 11:44:35 Jaffa, meego run on it yet? Aug 03 11:45:10 * Jaffa thinks the "a project based on MeeGo Core" idea has legs Aug 03 11:45:15 yep Aug 03 11:45:17 Has to eat lunch first Aug 03 11:45:48 take the core and build a communnity distro on top of that Aug 03 11:45:52 lcuk: No, but it's nicely jailbroken now Aug 03 11:46:00 distro*s* Aug 03 11:46:08 lcuk: I am about to create a QDeclartiveView app that will drink its qml off a web service, but wanted to intsall skype Aug 03 11:46:09 true Aug 03 11:46:13 lcuk: or a youtube app if that alread exists. Aug 03 11:46:31 timoph, n9x0-ce Aug 03 11:46:32 timoph: you mean provide more than reference UX ontop of the meego compliant core? Aug 03 11:46:36 already exists Aug 03 11:46:52 and is the sort of model required? Aug 03 11:46:52 lcuk: exactly but with a wider scope Aug 03 11:47:04 indeed - the meego-ce or formeego-ce Aug 03 11:47:07 so ce is the UX on top of the DE? Aug 03 11:47:12 * sivang been away for a bit. Aug 03 11:47:28 sivang, Developer Edition transmogrified into Community-Edition Aug 03 11:47:48 and with the N950 coming out, its scope slightly wdened to put effort to N9x0-ce Aug 03 11:47:50 Cordia too Aug 03 11:48:00 but I see no reason why MeeGo-CE shouldn't come from it Aug 03 11:48:46 Multiple UXes around an open project with third party apps which is MeeGo Compliant and open processes Aug 03 11:48:54 lcuk: Exactly. Aug 03 11:49:06 * timoph nods Aug 03 11:49:09 3rd party apps, we also need first party apps Aug 03 11:49:25 lcuk: But it treats the Handset UX as separate upstreams Aug 03 11:49:48 :) Aug 03 11:49:51 s/it treats/it would treat/ Aug 03 11:49:51 Jaffa meant: lcuk: But it would treat the Handset UX as separate upstreams Aug 03 11:50:14 lcuk: what's not enough in DE? Aug 03 11:50:14 as an example, how would formeego handle skype? Aug 03 11:50:31 Aren't you describing what we have already with the CE work ? Aug 03 11:50:38 yes Aug 03 11:50:39 lcuk: How is meego.com handling Skype? Aug 03 11:50:41 lcuk: don't go there.... same way as it handles MS Word.... Aug 03 11:50:54 I'm failing to see any difference. Aug 03 11:50:54 * sivang wants to read about DE vs. CE Aug 03 11:50:58 it is a question we would need Aug 03 11:51:01 libreoffice/XMPP Aug 03 11:51:05 slaine: Sort of, yes. Using that as a model to the next logical step Aug 03 11:51:10 else how would the technical group handle video conferencing? Aug 03 11:51:12 *grin* Aug 03 11:51:15 Don't forget the problem we have is even about 'free' software. Aug 03 11:51:36 The non-free software part is a whole different thing. Aug 03 11:51:37 X-Fade, the problem may be open software Aug 03 11:51:47 lcuk: ForMeeGo is successful when a MeeGo device, with its vendor-specific UI, is built on ForMeeGo Aug 03 11:51:47 but we must consider closed software too Aug 03 11:51:51 The problem is as it's always been, community repos Aug 03 11:52:06 lcuk: I was not considering that at all for meego. Aug 03 11:52:14 ok Aug 03 11:52:32 X-Fade: You should. Aug 03 11:52:39 RST38h, \o Aug 03 11:52:43 just OSI licensed software was scary enough. Aug 03 11:52:48 X-Fade: Or I will have to bring up my own repo =) Aug 03 11:52:49 lcuk: ForMeeGo would provide the open base and drop-in ecosystem for vendors Aug 03 11:52:55 RST38h: Go ahead. Aug 03 11:53:08 I fail to see why it needs to be a fork/rebase Aug 03 11:53:19 slaine: It's not. Aug 03 11:53:34 A restructure only works if the people involved want it. Aug 03 11:53:38 surely it should be a supplemental layer that a user can add to their device, if the vendor allows adding 3rd party repos Aug 03 11:53:48 aren't we around meego to try and work together Aug 03 11:53:54 So far this has been a very quiet subject. Aug 03 11:54:17 slaine, that sounds reasonable Aug 03 11:54:24 slaine: It takes MeeGo Core as an upstream and provides the openness and ecosystemm that MeeGo is currently lacking and has no desire to (seemingly) have Aug 03 11:55:18 Jaffa, yeah, I get that. But how is that different to the n9x0-ce ? And nobody considers that a fork/rebase Aug 03 11:55:20 slaine: As mentioned, a restructure/fix of The MeeGo Project requires the participation of those leading the project. Aug 03 11:55:47 slaine: It's exactly similar to N9x0-CE, but wider in scope. Aug 03 11:56:24 slaine: It's a fork of all the layers of the MeeGo *Project* above Core. Not a fork of Core code Aug 03 11:57:03 Jaffa, you call it a fork Aug 03 11:57:05 (IMHO) Aug 03 11:57:23 it was described as a reference vendor Aug 03 11:57:27 Well, from where I'm standing, MeeGo Core is the only remaining "closed" element of The MeeGo Project, not the IVI, TV, Handset/N9x0 layers. So basing a ForMeeGo project off that is already going down the same roads Aug 03 11:57:41 since that is what needs reproducing for every vertical Aug 03 11:57:44 slaine: Fair point Aug 03 11:57:53 And by closed, I mean there's no transparency to architecturall decisions. Aug 03 11:57:54 slaine: i wouldn't mind a Core WG tbh.. Aug 03 11:58:29 We're told via the meego-dev mailing list that things are happening, but never get to see the discussions behind it. Aug 03 11:58:52 slaine: OK, so fixing that requires the restructuring/fixing of the existing Project Aug 03 11:59:32 so again, I'm failing to see how a ForMeeGo release, based on MeeGo Core, would be anything more than another UX project layer like what we already have and are encouraged to do. Aug 03 11:59:39 (slow typing, sorry) Aug 03 11:59:43 what packages should come out of core then? Aug 03 11:59:52 Something being attempted, but when the project owners don't come fwd to kick off the apps.meego.com discussions, that seems unlikel Aug 03 12:00:03 As the person that was pushing the forMeeGo subject and owns the domain I'd like to add that I see the community as an symbiotic part together with the 'business thing' that is the MeeGo Project they should form the larger thing that is the real MeeGo that lives and evolves Aug 03 12:00:23 slaine: Agreed. But layers *below* Core seem open Aug 03 12:00:25 lbt: everything up to what delivers meego api Aug 03 12:00:34 (a functional) Aug 03 12:00:48 Jaffa, in principal, that's upstream for the projects, but I get your point Aug 03 12:00:48 name 10 Aug 03 12:00:58 emacs .... 9 to go Aug 03 12:01:03 Qt Aug 03 12:01:11 lbt: qt and dependancy ggraph of that, systemd and uxlaunch :P Aug 03 12:01:11 nah Aug 03 12:01:18 Qt not in core? Aug 03 12:01:29 uxlaunch,... OK Aug 03 12:01:36 Oh, was answering a different question ;-) Aug 03 12:01:38 dm8tbr: that's basically where I was coming from with my "supplemental layer" bit above Aug 03 12:01:40 my list is meego core Aug 03 12:02:17 hehe Aug 03 12:02:41 I just need a small number of glaring extras Aug 03 12:02:43 slaine: just that this ain't a layer cake. For business success and devices, MeeGo needs the 'business thing' side of things. But for that to exist it MUST also have the community that works with it (cf. reference vendor, etc) Aug 03 12:02:59 it is more of a one begets the other circle Aug 03 12:03:10 dm8tbr: yes, I was just about to comment on the dangers of layer cake Aug 03 12:03:38 and breaking up the lower part of the stack, MeeGo Core, into sub-layers is going to lead to that too Aug 03 12:04:28 imho, the Community as a Reference Vendor approach makes the most sense Aug 03 12:04:54 Yes, quickly.. add as much GPLv3 as possible Aug 03 12:05:17 to give it that broader scope over the n9x0-ce project that Jaffa was talking about Aug 03 12:05:35 slaine, ++ Aug 03 12:05:47 and what we had been heading towards anyway Aug 03 12:05:55 slaine: the CE shares aspects of the forMeeGo story and should be part of it IMHO Aug 03 12:06:29 the ce is gives the stage to allow formeego in light of yesterdays announcement Aug 03 12:06:39 what ^ Aug 03 12:07:04 dm8tbr: I guess thats the point we're all agreeing on, the vector on how to achieve it is where we're getting muddled. Aug 03 12:07:37 Jaffa, to show the -ce or even formeego itself would work requires packaging for meego Aug 03 12:07:50 and unlike recent very quick starting around harmattan Aug 03 12:07:55 slaine: I suppose the advantage of treating Core as an upstream of ForMeeGo is that it acknowledges that it's a closed box and we can't do anything about it. That's why I suggest it's a project fork/reference vendor/ecosystem in a box. Aug 03 12:07:57 we need apps actually being made for meego Aug 03 12:08:54 how much scope is there still to simply reference a maemo repository? Aug 03 12:08:59 http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/restructuring-meego-executive-summary.html Aug 03 12:09:05 http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-core-focus.html Aug 03 12:09:15 it's really not that hard. it should draw a lot on the pictures of opensuse, fedora and the likes Aug 03 12:09:51 besides, this, exactly, what lbt just said! Aug 03 12:09:54 I think we're put in a logistical tight spot with the LF rejection of apps.meego.com rather than a philosophical one. We've all known that getting the extras/garage/surrounds issue resolved would be difficult, it's taken us a year and a half to get here. Having LF endorse it would have been a life saver, but we're now back to the mercy of strangers to get an infrastructure in place that can manage this service now. Aug 03 12:10:15 * sivang a bit confused at the discussion not sure what's the midpoint. Aug 03 12:11:03 question: does the meego-ce currently have apps. beta repositories enabled? Aug 03 12:11:39 lcuk: I doubt it as there's no way of getting apps into apps-testing or apps yet Aug 03 12:11:42 http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-systems-and-processes.html Aug 03 12:11:45 slaine: AFAICT the infrastructure is on it's way and the LF actually will endores it, they just don't want the legal obligation of hosting the website Aug 03 12:12:06 Jaffa, so it is vapourware still Aug 03 12:12:09 dm8tbr: Which, bluntly, doesn't make sense Aug 03 12:12:15 how about we get apps up and running Aug 03 12:12:37 lcuk: I imagine a lot of it is paused until apps.meego.com/LF was resolved. Unfortunately, it wasn't Aug 03 12:12:48 Jaffa: it does, more than you think Aug 03 12:13:07 well a good start by app developers is actually going the extra bit and making their apps work on meego-ce Aug 03 12:13:17 anyone care to reference me to an ml thread about this? Aug 03 12:13:27 slaine: meego-community Aug 03 12:13:43 ^sivang Aug 03 12:13:48 otherwise we are dicsussing a nothingness because there are no apps to infringe Aug 03 12:13:57 shadows Aug 03 12:14:13 dm8tbr: Really? Having a third party website which links to repo.pub.meego.com (which is also HTTP accessible) which contains the scary source code & binaries provides sufficient legal indemnification? Aug 03 12:14:26 lcuk: ok, my Broadcom driver rpm, probably a good example of something that LF would never allow to be hosted Aug 03 12:15:03 lcuk: apps are already being built on COBS and put into repo.pub.meego.com, as you know Aug 03 12:15:06 http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-lead-by-example.html Aug 03 12:15:10 Jaffa: that is the other elephant in the room, if you scream louder they will pull teh plug today Aug 03 12:15:16 Jaffa, I know Aug 03 12:16:08 dm8tbr: Right, which is why the argument doesn't make sense. So it's either the lawyers are talking without knowledge/filtering/correction, or it's political Aug 03 12:16:37 Jaffa: meego.com linking to a app which contains problematic things already puts them at risk. Aug 03 12:16:49 Jaffa: And that is just a link on the website. Aug 03 12:17:01 dm8tbr: So, as I said, the argument doesn't make sense. Understanding the position, what might happen next and what the Project leadership think about it cuts to the heart of the matter Aug 03 12:17:11 dispatch another iteration of an sbdmock based autobuilder and host it on maemo.org! Aug 03 12:17:12 * javispedro hides Aug 03 12:17:34 Jaffa: it makes sense, the lawyer drafting this was not aware of COBS, else it would be offline by now. Aug 03 12:17:54 javispedro: OBS works well (it seemes), the problem are the build agents and output. Who pays? Who manages? Aug 03 12:18:00 javispedro: We're not that far off. Aug 03 12:18:09 Jaffa: I see it as highly likely that we will need to move COBS to forMeeGo at some point Aug 03 12:18:15 javispedro: Actually an OBS hosted there yeah. Aug 03 12:18:33 I already ordered some servers for it, just in case. Aug 03 12:18:34 dm8tbr: Right, which is where this starts getting expensive real-quick Aug 03 12:18:54 Jaffa: what X-Fade said Aug 03 12:18:56 * lcuk wanders off to try and fix bug 20099 Aug 03 12:18:58 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20099 nor, High, ---, geoff, NEW, [CE] Calculator crashes after pressing any button and then "." . Aug 03 12:19:01 http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-and-hacker-community.html Aug 03 12:19:24 oooh, that url looks promising Aug 03 12:19:26 X-Fade: Being paid for, managed and owned by whom? Aug 03 12:19:39 lbt: you publish those faster that I can read them :) Aug 03 12:19:46 Jaffa: Nokia is paying the bill for it now, to bootstrap it. Aug 03 12:19:52 they've been weeks in the writing timoph Aug 03 12:19:59 ah Aug 03 12:20:02 Jaffa: They feel that meego needs a community offering. Aug 03 12:20:05 * dm8tbr encourages everyone here to read http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-and-hacker-community.html -- especially those that think that MeeGo should be completely community driven. Aug 03 12:20:20 btw, what's on obs.maemo.org ? Aug 03 12:20:45 Jaffa: Hoping that it enough to bootstrap and others will chip in later. Aug 03 12:21:38 X-Fade: Right Aug 03 12:21:44 http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-infrastructure.html Aug 03 12:22:00 dm8tbr: imho it shouldn't be just community driven but it needs the community layer - the reference vendor / community edition story.. Aug 03 12:22:08 timoph: exactly Aug 03 12:22:16 timoph: just drop the layer bit Aug 03 12:22:28 yep Aug 03 12:22:50 Jaffa: dm8tbr and I have already setup dns for formeego.com/.org so we can point to whatever we need. Aug 03 12:23:00 dm8tbr: Who's said "community-driven"? AFAICT, the talk has been about openness, predictability and increasing attractivness to vendors by providing an ecosystem-in-a-box they can differentiate with their own UX Aug 03 12:25:29 Jaffa: it may not have been explicitly stated, but I have been sensing the misunderstanding that lbt addresses in that posting many times. Aug 03 12:27:38 lbt: just finished reading those, +1 for everything. I've the same opinions Aug 03 12:27:59 open ended devices like N900, N9(50) or the various Archos generations are really just the side-show, the playground for us the community. This is very important, but not for Vendors. Vendors can benefit though by e.g. recruiting out of the community or drawing on the open source projects in the community. Aug 03 12:28:00 lbt: hope you'll send urls fo those to meego-dev@ Aug 03 12:28:21 Stskeeps: yeah .. it's about time ... Aug 03 12:28:24 lbt: s/DE/CE/ :) Aug 03 12:28:53 timoph: shit... did I correct it the wrong way :) Aug 03 12:28:56 * Stskeeps heads out to his accountant Aug 03 12:29:03 Stskeeps: I wanted to wait for apps to settle down ... silly Aug 03 12:29:12 shoulda posted-early, posted often : Aug 03 12:29:13 :) Aug 03 12:33:09 dm8tbr: To a degree. Aug 03 12:33:25 dm8tbr: There are plenty of phones with crappy clone OSs coming out of china. Aug 03 12:34:07 Hardware is improving fast enough that it's not going to be that long until CE/DE are a sane alternative to rolling your own crappy OS Aug 03 12:34:21 SpeedEvil: yes, but devices do not necessarily need to be 'hackable'. that is a misconception. It is great if they are and I encourage people to vote with their wallet for those Aug 03 12:34:29 Indeed. Aug 03 12:34:58 final one ... for now http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2011/08/meego-restructured.html Aug 03 12:35:18 :) Aug 03 12:36:09 lbt: thanks for putting so much time and effort into this Aug 03 12:36:39 well, as I mention ... I had help from community reviewers :) Aug 03 12:37:42 notwithstanding, thanks Aug 03 12:54:39 morning Aug 03 12:55:26 afternoon Aug 03 12:57:17 afternoon CosmoHill Aug 03 12:57:39 .o/ Aug 03 13:06:06 * CosmoHill goes out to make himself dapper Aug 03 13:06:19 (I've not worn smart trousers or shirts since highschool) Aug 03 13:09:06 CosmoHill: don't make a habit out of it now, you have a reputation to uphold Aug 03 13:12:48 berndhs, he might look good dressing in a habit Aug 03 13:15:26 perhaps, but then they might brand him as a religious extremist Aug 03 13:18:58 sigh Aug 03 13:19:02 In Qt Creator, can I break out the Help window to a separate window ? Aug 03 13:19:09 * slaine is new to Qt Aug 03 13:40:38 the OBS builder is quite adept Aug 03 13:40:48 but does t trigger rebuilds after every single file uploaded? Aug 03 13:41:15 lcuk: After every 'package' revision. Aug 03 13:41:36 lcuk: When using web client, each upload is a revision. Aug 03 13:41:38 X-Fade, so whenusing the webservice to upload a single file Aug 03 13:41:41 it becomes a revision Aug 03 13:41:44 roger Aug 03 13:41:53 Using the osc tool is better :) Aug 03 13:41:57 indeed it is Aug 03 13:42:01 but learning to walk first Aug 03 13:42:02 :) Aug 03 13:42:24 hehe Aug 03 13:43:24 the webclient is cool even if you use the cli tool, lets you watch what it's doing Aug 03 13:44:08 X-Fade, the webclient logic is similar to normal maemo autobuilder Aug 03 13:44:45 lcuk: Yes and no :) Aug 03 13:57:19 X-Fade, do we know how many pure native qt apps exist on maemo? as in ones without explicit maemoisms **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 03 14:05:28 2011 Aug 03 14:08:38 guys tried out Meego CE on N900 , quite nice UI but the touch response is slow ,what might be the reason ? Aug 03 14:10:44 give it a bit to rest, first boot is always slow due to media indexing Aug 03 14:19:27 hi people, Aug 03 14:19:41 can anyone tell me if the N950 has a FM receiver? Aug 03 14:21:45 http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/N9DevelopmentTipsAndTricks#Accessing_HW Aug 03 14:27:00 lol arfoll vgrade Aug 03 14:28:19 is it true that n950 has a fm transmitter but it does not come with a transmitt antenna? Aug 03 14:29:13 rafael2k: the wifi chip has that functionality in theory. Aug 03 14:29:50 lets see if nokia deliver my N950 soon in order to put my hands on this Aug 03 14:29:51 rafael2k: unless i2s and antenna is wired to it, it will just not work. Aug 03 14:30:19 dm8tbr: :/ Aug 03 14:30:35 FM is so 80s Aug 03 14:30:38 it could be a good hw mod to enable the fm tx Aug 03 14:30:55 sure if you are into BGA reballing Aug 03 14:31:21 it's the chip pin available for soldering? Aug 03 14:32:24 dm8tbr: http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2011-08-03/ Aug 03 14:32:45 rafael2k: all the major ICs are BGA on nowadays devices, no, chance, in, hell. Aug 03 14:33:12 timoph: yes, take a guess why I said that :D Aug 03 14:33:16 :D Aug 03 14:34:47 dm8tbr: ok. is this information about the fm tx confirmed? Aug 03 14:35:14 rafael2k: what do you mean by 'this'? Aug 03 14:35:31 dm8tbr: the unconnected fm tx issue Aug 03 14:36:16 rafael2k: no, ask nokia for a schematic. Aug 03 14:36:39 thanks Aug 03 14:37:05 hopefully someone will disassembly a N950 for us Aug 03 14:37:48 and with regards to the fm rx, it it working as expected? Aug 03 14:37:57 http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=23759&postcount=2 Aug 03 14:38:06 it is ^ Aug 03 14:39:05 Great. My project is related to FM/RDS. Aug 03 14:48:40 rafael2k: rds does work: http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=26750&postcount=5 Aug 03 14:49:04 audio, on the other side... Aug 03 14:58:53 javispedro: this is good news Aug 03 14:59:34 javispedro: I hope audio works also... Aug 03 15:01:30 javispedro: do you think the fm audio issue can be solved or the issue seems a hw problem? Aug 03 15:01:46 no idea until I have schematic Aug 03 15:02:03 some nokian said fmrx should work, so I'd bet it's sw. Aug 03 15:03:19 good Aug 03 15:03:44 how about USB hostmode, any idea? I really like this functionality in my N900 Aug 03 15:03:57 if I wanted to try and use the meego-app-calculator on harmattan Aug 03 15:04:04 do I jnust need to add a .dsc file? Aug 03 15:04:26 -app is more difficult, it uses meego-ux-components Aug 03 15:04:28 or does it need a whole debian subfolder/tar.gz Aug 03 15:04:50 well that is a technical issue only really? Aug 03 15:04:58 since harmattan is meego 1.2 Aug 03 15:05:04 and these components are in meego 1.2 Aug 03 15:05:05 :P Aug 03 15:05:06 rafael2k: you should ask this stuff on #harmattan Aug 03 15:05:13 lcuk, ? Aug 03 15:05:25 vgrade_, I was giggling at what you retweeted Aug 03 15:05:42 javispedro: ok Aug 03 15:05:51 ah, yes, very funny OBS joke Aug 03 16:37:33 * lcuk moves onto another bug Aug 03 16:39:47 It's 29.7C in my bedroom Aug 03 16:42:42 crikey CosmoHill Aug 03 16:47:36 CosmoHill: not cool Aug 03 16:48:01 morn auke Aug 03 16:48:35 hey Aug 03 17:02:06 so I am sat here with 3 devices with meego instances on them Aug 03 17:02:11 how do they work together? Aug 03 17:02:16 if I am reading a book on one Aug 03 17:02:24 can it be continued on another? Aug 03 17:02:45 when I make notes on the laptop, can they be available on the others? Aug 03 17:02:58 w00t_, this is the sort of problem you have tinkered with I believe Aug 03 17:06:55 i ask because I am wanting to read a book and have same document on all machines Aug 03 17:13:36 awesome, 50 new n950 devices from Nokia Aug 03 17:13:42 DDP moreso Aug 03 17:13:46 * lcuk stops talking to himself Aug 03 17:14:09 50 new devices? Aug 03 17:14:45 probably found in some developers closet Aug 03 17:14:57 while excavating after the battle of elop Aug 03 17:15:29 or atleast I assumed they weren't manufacturing them?-) Aug 03 17:24:41 * CosmoHill cackles cos the number of minutes he has has just doubled Aug 03 17:24:47 now if only I had someone to phone :( Aug 03 17:48:13 berndhs, too complex for muggles Aug 03 17:48:23 good idea though (ssh-fs) Aug 03 17:48:45 better solution than NFS for small networks Aug 03 17:49:12 and its in the meego repos Aug 03 17:49:26 berndhs, installation is one thing Aug 03 17:49:41 ensuring that real people can configure it is another Aug 03 17:49:52 rc.local :) Aug 03 17:50:11 even systemd supports rc.local, I think Aug 03 17:50:23 https://picasaweb.google.com/luarvique/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKaR39fjs8PNgAE#5636687252037733650 Aug 03 17:50:40 berndhs, i don't even know what rc.local is Aug 03 17:51:15 it is the tail end of the boot sequence, you can put your own scripts there Aug 03 17:51:29 berndhs, could your parents? Aug 03 17:51:48 well, not any more, they finished booting anything soem years ago Aug 03 17:52:15 berndhs, :( but you understand the intent Aug 03 17:52:29 but you could configure it for the non-technical people in the family, they won't even know its there Aug 03 17:52:47 their devices just see soem shared directories Aug 03 17:53:07 directories? I see sketches and books :P Aug 03 17:53:32 thsoe are stored in directories Aug 03 17:53:46 whether the users know it or not Aug 03 17:54:13 the devices sees that its shared, the user doesn't Aug 03 17:55:40 yay! http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=28124&postcount=27 Aug 03 17:57:23 there shouldn't be a central app store for all of meego, there should be a whole pile of them Aug 03 17:57:31 competition is healthy Aug 03 17:58:31 who said that there's going to be a central repo for all of meego? Aug 03 17:58:58 the complaint is that there isn't Aug 03 17:59:06 because LF won't do it Aug 03 17:59:10 it's not just about repos Aug 03 17:59:25 so best thing is to make independent ones Aug 03 17:59:40 how about instead of all this "formeego" stuff, why not just create an actual "compliant" derivative of MeeGo with standard repositories and a "store" of sorts? Aug 03 17:59:43 besides I really don't want to see the mess maemo had with repositories before n900 Aug 03 17:59:44 something with its own name Aug 03 17:59:47 right its not just about repos, that's why I said "app store" Aug 03 18:00:40 there should be more than one oil company, more than one refrigerator company, more than one app store Aug 03 18:00:56 well. not a store. It also host community made meego builds for different devices that the official builds don't support etc Aug 03 18:01:09 yes Aug 03 18:01:46 but as I see it formeego isn't stopping anyone from setting up their own stuff Aug 03 18:02:08 indeed, if someone wants to, nobody can stop them Aug 03 18:02:14 yep Aug 03 18:11:08 lcuk: do you know what a document oriented store/database is? Aug 03 18:14:15 its a paradigm Aug 03 18:15:11 (drink? :P) Aug 03 18:15:18 (Cidre?) Aug 03 18:16:27 w00t_, informal database Aug 03 18:16:59 lcuk: right, pretty much Aug 03 18:17:23 * lcuk had experience with basics of them Aug 03 18:17:35 lcuk: what i've done is to tack some metadata on top of that and write something which is capable of using that to send changes around different devices using link-local discovery Aug 03 18:17:50 w00t_, link local is only one part of it Aug 03 18:18:03 after (for instance, using real uses case) tracy sets off for morrisons Aug 03 18:18:17 and she forgot something on the shopping list Aug 03 18:18:26 lcuk: yes, I do plan to add other distribution methods over time, they're just not a priority for now Aug 03 18:18:40 so that's still very technically possible Aug 03 18:19:11 so a lan cloud database Aug 03 18:19:25 yup Aug 03 18:19:26 does each client have to always retain entire copy Aug 03 18:19:40 or does the syncing attempt to pull everything together? Aug 03 18:20:03 it acts as a mesh, so you can have two completely different devices merge together Aug 03 18:20:06 "document oriented database" is a completely meaningless set of buzzwords which was invented to promote couchdb Aug 03 18:20:09 w00t_, consider a group of sketches Aug 03 18:20:25 or contacts Aug 03 18:20:41 but contacts are less issue because you generally do not create new ones every few minutes Aug 03 18:21:08 mhmm Aug 03 18:21:14 w00t_, 3 machines, machine1..2..3 etc Aug 03 18:21:24 couchdb is exactly like every other database ever made, except instead of using SQL, you query it using a json api over http Aug 03 18:21:38 each might have a set of sketches growing constantly Aug 03 18:21:59 ali1234, NoQL also Aug 03 18:22:36 w00t_, knowing which set of devices have the data on is a tough problem to overcome Aug 03 18:22:58 lcuk: ah, i get what you're meaning, but no, they'd each have copies of them Aug 03 18:22:59 when you do load banacing clusters online, generally you still need one index node Aug 03 18:23:04 you're right, it is tough. which is why couchdb doesn't attempt to solve it at all Aug 03 18:23:19 instead, you're expected to sync the entire database file yourself Aug 03 18:23:21 ali1234, couchdb is one example, just talking problem through Aug 03 18:23:36 which would work exactly as well using sqlite, or mysql Aug 03 18:23:41 I didn't want to do that sort of thing at all because these are still very much about wandering off solo/mobile, disconnected from the rest of the devices, and then wander back and say hello to them Aug 03 18:23:46 which is why everyone is now dropping couchdb for sqlite Aug 03 18:24:05 ...because sqlite actually works, and isn't just a bunch of buzzwords Aug 03 18:24:50 couchdb and the whole "nosql" movement in general is a great example of being different purely for the sake of it Aug 03 18:24:55 w00t_, i think a pseudo domain controller machine on the lan would be practical way to solve it Aug 03 18:25:05 the developers decided they don't like SQL, and therefore decided that *anything* must be better Aug 03 18:25:07 each device as in your contacts example syncs to that one Aug 03 18:25:19 even if the data comes from some other machine Aug 03 18:25:38 lcuk: it doesn't need one Aug 03 18:25:52 any device can connect to any other device and happily catch up Aug 03 18:29:41 w00t_, indeed a binary pair works, but when it expands to 3..n devices it becomes a problem to know where update means Aug 03 18:29:58 lcuk: it handles that Aug 03 18:30:20 does the client share key field details of everybody it knows? Aug 03 18:30:32 or how does it know what data to download? Aug 03 18:31:02 * lcuk once did data sync between whole store group computers and head offices Aug 03 18:31:13 well, there's two different mechanisms, document store (which we've talked about so far), and directory tree synchronisation, which is much more WIP Aug 03 18:32:24 document store keeps a set of metadata per-object (and in the future, per-field) like last modified timestamp and hash, and does magic to know what has changed between devices, and resolve collisions by using the most up to date copy Aug 03 18:33:22 w00t_, that is entirely the issue, "most upto date might have to be recalculated over practically the entire dataset Aug 03 18:33:37 without some machine knowing the leading edge Aug 03 18:33:39 no, as it only exchanges metadata Aug 03 18:33:42 it becomes like a git problem Aug 03 18:35:13 I don't think I understand your concern, perhaps I'm not being overly clear too, but a lot of this only exists in my head or in a very messy scratchpad, I've not often tried to explain it Aug 03 18:35:34 while you try to figure out the "best" way to solve this problem using buzzwords, normal people are just putting the sqlite.db into their dropbox and finding it works just fine Aug 03 18:35:51 w00t_, http://liqbase.net/20110610_002.jpg Aug 03 18:36:00 the computers there are on the same lan Aug 03 18:36:08 i draw a new sketch on today Aug 03 18:36:25 i think I need a central server to sync the new sketch to all of them Aug 03 18:36:40 how many sketches do you have, total? Aug 03 18:37:11 right now, 9000ish Aug 03 18:37:21 * w00t_ calculates Aug 03 18:37:36 I imagine these are stored as individual files Aug 03 18:37:36 but that obviously does not include the other things tags photos bookpositions notes etc Aug 03 18:37:40 yeah Aug 03 18:38:18 all in one directory, or (preferred) multiple trees? i.e. 2011/07/3/.sketch Aug 03 18:38:46 i have /cal /sketches /tags /photos etc Aug 03 18:38:50 each file is datestamped Aug 03 18:39:01 it would be trivial to use folder structure as you state though Aug 03 18:39:07 though would slow down startup time ;) Aug 03 18:40:18 w00t_, the problem scope is simple with a few files, just tar.gz the folder tree and mirror contents, but at some point the amount of meta data being sent becomes non trivial Aug 03 18:40:25 ok, fine. the way directory sync will work is that metadata will be stored at the directory level (i.e. a hash), when devices first meet up, they'll say "hey, /sketches has a hash of , how's yours?", if they match, nothing happens, so you've only had a ~20 byte transfer.. if they don't match, each side will exchange metadata on each file, and handle healing any differences (via simple differencing too, so if you have a large file you append Aug 03 18:41:21 sounds reasonable indeed Aug 03 18:41:38 the metadata for each file is.. um. filename (say, 12 bytes), plus 8 byte filesize, plus a sha-1 hash Aug 03 18:41:38 would that work in an even more general sense for entire user profile sync? Aug 03 18:42:06 'user profile' like settings, data, etc? Aug 03 18:42:07 yes Aug 03 18:42:16 that's why i originally started to write it Aug 03 18:42:20 harmattan natively (and in hardware) stores sha1 hashes does it not? Aug 03 18:42:30 ie can we get that part "for free" from the os? Aug 03 18:42:36 the directory tree part comes in because I want to sync photos between my mobile and laptop (say) Aug 03 18:42:50 maybe Aug 03 18:42:58 I haven't looked at putting it on harmattan much - yet Aug 03 18:43:04 I want to get directory trees finished first Aug 03 18:43:13 as in, written and working :) Aug 03 18:43:19 of course Aug 03 18:43:23 I have the theory behind it Aug 03 18:43:26 I just need to make it work Aug 03 18:43:34 * lcuk nods Aug 03 18:44:34 w00t_, I was tinkering with php server and made the push part of calendar sync work Aug 03 18:44:55 i even made the server return sketches as .png files for building my diary/blog page Aug 03 18:45:03 :) Aug 03 18:45:35 i keep trying to do it without needing the server Aug 03 18:45:36 why not just rsync Aug 03 18:45:45 there are so many places in the world without internet Aug 03 18:45:45 why not just git? Aug 03 18:45:54 Stskeeps: directed at me? Aug 03 18:45:55 configurability Aug 03 18:46:11 Stskeeps: rsync can't handle deletes properly Aug 03 18:46:43 you either know which direction you have to sync in (and lose changes on one side) or you ignore that and get stuff you deleted come back, etc Aug 03 18:50:05 w00t_, where are you doing the sync stuff, I am sure some folks might want to follow its progress and may have more ideas Aug 03 18:51:05 https://github.com/saesu/ Aug 03 18:55:05 zypper update on meego CE for N900 gave me error building cache Aug 03 18:57:20 warning : disabling repo oss 1.2 daily because repo type cant be determined Aug 03 18:57:36 I did a zypper clean and zypper update , no use Aug 03 20:51:31 * CosmoHill puts on a shirt and tie after many years and several attempts Aug 03 20:53:24 the necktie - a symbolic noose ? Aug 03 20:54:18 I've not worn a shirt and tie since highschool in 2005 Aug 03 20:54:42 I haven't worn a necktie since before you were born probably Aug 03 20:55:04 maybe, UK highschool finishes at 16 Aug 03 20:55:36 actually wayyyy before you were born :) Aug 03 20:59:03 I could do with a wider neck shirt tbh, nothing relaxes your nerves in an interview like feeling like you can't breath properly Aug 03 21:01:43 yes you feel like you can't breath because you can't Aug 03 22:29:56 hi Aug 03 22:30:03 where can i download meego tv? Aug 03 22:30:50 it does not exist yet. Aug 03 22:32:11 i'm asking because i see this Aug 03 22:32:19 http://www.madeo.co.uk/?tag=meego Aug 03 22:32:26 i have a trim slice too Aug 03 22:38:16 ITV3: Blue Murder, ITV4: Red Heat Aug 03 22:38:19 * CosmoHill giggles Aug 03 22:59:31 morning Aug 03 23:05:47 wasn't me ego killed off by nokia? Aug 03 23:06:13 no Aug 03 23:07:06 If your ego is being killed off by Nokia, then you have an extremely weak ego. Toughen up Aug 03 23:07:24 meego lives! Aug 03 23:07:42 my ego? don't understand, sorry. is it still supported and developed? i thought there was some issue about them using windows from now on. i've missed all the news and i'm having trouble catching up with the outcome Aug 03 23:08:29 Oh you mean MEEGO. Not Me ego Aug 03 23:08:41 it's not Nokia's to kill, they don't own it Aug 03 23:09:03 Yeah, Nokia hasn't kill it Aug 03 23:09:17 But the Linux Foundation and TSG are slowly killing it Aug 03 23:09:39 Hear that? Hear the can of worms opening there? Aug 03 23:09:40 the TSG is a rumor :) Aug 03 23:09:45 is anyone able to give me the facts or point to a new article for me, instead of jokes and sarcasm. would be really helpful Aug 03 23:09:59 what's happening with the TSG anyway? Aug 03 23:10:10 last i heard, there was only two people left on it? Aug 03 23:10:22 ali1234, there was only ever two people on it Aug 03 23:10:33 I removed them from the list of regular meetings on the wiki Aug 03 23:10:37 i thought there was two people from nokia and two from intel Aug 03 23:10:54 no. Just one from Nokia, one from Intel. Aug 03 23:11:04 well, last i heard, there was 0 from nokia Aug 03 23:12:04 i also heard rumours that someone from one (or more) of the chinese companies was going to join it? Aug 03 23:12:30 Hmm, maybe the Nokia guy (can't remember his name... heh), resigned from Nokia so isn't doing it anymore? Maybe, I can't remember exactly Aug 03 23:12:56 no backwards, he doesn't work for Nokia any more but still represents them on the TSG Aug 03 23:13:08 oh ok Aug 03 23:13:16 or something like that Aug 03 23:13:22 Valtteri Halla Aug 03 23:13:23 well anyway, LF is being the real cock block at the moment Aug 03 23:13:59 Termana: I heard tonight that the LF guy who should have been answering has been on vacation ... Aug 03 23:14:42 I don't understand why LF is against apps.meego.com and such Aug 03 23:14:57 although Ibrahim (who's a director) did answer privately and never mentioned that Aug 03 23:15:07 what's the other group called? architects? the one with arjan? Aug 03 23:15:18 so maybe we'll get a better answer soon Aug 03 23:15:19 that one is 4 people right? Aug 03 23:15:43 lbt: I really hope the best for meego Aug 03 23:16:06 :) Aug 03 23:17:00 they are being quiet in order to encourage wild speculation :) Aug 03 23:17:20 * lbt wonders what stock they're buying Aug 03 23:18:18 I think the real point is : LF are sensible to not do apps.meego.com. The MeeGo community is not sensible to be constrained by the LF Aug 03 23:18:42 that's more or less what i've been saying for two years Aug 03 23:18:59 except s/LF/nokia/g Aug 03 23:19:00 yes, as I said earlier, having several outlets for apps would be better Aug 03 23:21:22 lbt, well if he has answered privately, and we are still not sure on what's happening, then there still seems to be a problem Aug 03 23:22:05 that's very true Aug 03 23:24:21 'night all Aug 03 23:24:27 night Aug 04 00:14:32 I have installed scratchbox succesfully and has been associated to a user but when I type $scratchbox it says permission denied Aug 04 00:14:50 This is for harmattan SDK Aug 04 00:15:52 someone mentioned rebooting **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Aug 04 02:59:57 2011