**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Aug 06 02:59:57 2011 Aug 06 03:58:33 Hi all, I'm sorry to bother you, but I had some questions on Meego Aug 06 04:09:26 hmm Aug 06 04:09:32 probably have some answers Aug 06 04:31:06 thirteenth: go ask.... Aug 06 05:04:54 * TSCHAKeee pissed off that the US is not on the list to get the N9. Aug 06 05:05:19 WHAT!? Aug 06 05:05:22 It's not!! Aug 06 05:05:22 Grr Aug 06 05:05:48 thirteenth: you had questions? Aug 06 05:06:20 Sorry yeah Aug 06 05:06:23 I just got back Aug 06 05:06:57 Is there anyway I can play with Meego? I have an ARM WM/VIA8505 netbook, or an HTC Incredible. Now don't judge, but what I've read about Meego I really like, but it seems with those two platforms I couldn't really experiment much.. Aug 06 05:07:07 The N9 looks like a cool phone too :/ Aug 06 05:07:38 Wait, no, those are silly questions. Aug 06 05:07:39 Sorry Aug 06 05:14:25 alright fess up Aug 06 05:14:37 who took build.meego.com down? Aug 06 05:14:43 arfoll: you again? Aug 06 06:21:42 huomenta Aug 06 06:22:25 OW FOR F*... Aug 06 06:22:28 * dm8tbr goes to check Aug 06 06:23:24 core OBS is down Aug 06 06:23:48 02:27:10< forMeeGoBot> PROBLEM build.meego.com HTTP CRITICAL CRITICAL - Socket timeout after 10 seconds Sat Aug 6 02:26:20 UTC 2011 Aug 06 06:34:39 * dm8tbr commented bug 22134 Aug 06 06:34:42 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22134 maj, Undecided, ---, anas.nashif, NEW, Main meego obs down Aug 06 06:35:59 not again Aug 06 06:36:22 like I wrote in the bug: any given weekend Aug 06 06:37:13 it's like a real life satire version of 'ground hog day'. Every saturday you wake up and OBS is down. Aug 06 07:09:43 down again? Aug 06 07:11:00 * timoph wonders if someone switches the power off when leaving work for the weekend Aug 06 07:12:18 garrr... Aug 06 07:25:18 hi every body Aug 06 07:25:54 how i can have fedora 15 and meego together? Aug 06 07:26:26 timoph: I think 'apps' should be the _least_ worries of LF. Getting their *core* OBS in line should be top priority as it _enables_ the _business_ usage they are so longing for with MeeGo... Aug 06 07:26:52 Vampir3: which UX? Aug 06 07:27:05 dm8tbr: yep Aug 06 07:27:53 netbook 1.2 iirc Aug 06 07:28:17 what? Aug 06 07:28:33 Vampir3: are you trying to install the netbook edition? Aug 06 07:28:51 oops :-S yeah yeah Aug 06 07:29:10 i download it and install on USB Drive Aug 06 07:29:35 now i'm chating from meego. now i want meego and fedora together Aug 06 07:29:42 Vampir3: it should be possible to install it in parallel on free disk space Aug 06 07:30:00 Vampir3: the only thing you might need to do is adjust the boot loaders Aug 06 07:30:50 i'm not very profesional in boot setting, can you explain me more? :( Aug 06 07:32:56 do you have more than 1 partition on the notebook Aug 06 07:33:22 HD*/SSD* Aug 06 07:33:24 Vampir3, note that parted and its variant don't work with btrfs. Use ext* instead of btrfs with meego if you install Fedora first. Aug 06 07:33:48 To resize btrfs partitions, you must use btrfs' own tools, as with lvm. Aug 06 07:34:19 my partitions is ext Aug 06 07:34:58 one point, i have window$ 7 on my netbook too Aug 06 07:34:59 Some of the MeeGo installers stomp on other partitions no matter what you do. IIRC latest meego-ivi still does. Aug 06 07:35:37 If MeeGo installer is ill-behaved, put MeeGo on first, then resize it using less buggy Fedora installer. Aug 06 07:36:08 I'm triple-booting Windows something-or-other, MeeGo Tablet and MeeGo IVI on my ExoPC. Aug 06 07:36:19 The Windows was a pre-install, natch. Aug 06 07:36:35 is the ExoPC a neat device? Aug 06 07:37:49 i dont understand Aug 06 07:40:05 sory for questions :( Aug 06 07:40:28 I think he meant you should install Meego as the first OS on the device Aug 06 07:40:45 no no Aug 06 07:40:48 Look Aug 06 07:41:27 i have window$ anf fedora together, now i want meego to Aug 06 07:41:34 yeah Aug 06 07:41:41 as a third OS? Aug 06 07:41:48 yes Aug 06 07:42:19 well I understood from the earlier answers that you should format yout machine and install meego as the first OS Aug 06 07:42:24 your* Aug 06 07:42:57 after meego is installed you shouldn't have problems installing fedora and windows on the machine also Aug 06 07:43:40 but not sure about that, at least I had some problems with another OS making problems on my HD Aug 06 07:43:55 and I had to install them in a different order for it to work Aug 06 07:44:35 but don't act based only on my comment.. I could easily be wrong lol Aug 06 07:45:55 but i dont want format the machine and install the OS's ( and programs again) , this kill me install all programs again Aug 06 07:46:56 sory for my bad emglish Aug 06 07:47:17 english* Aug 06 07:48:27 there is a real chance that the meego installer may format your machine anyway, depending on which meego you would install Aug 06 07:48:59 Vampir3 and reikalusikka, here's what I did recently: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_IVI_on_ExoPC Aug 06 07:49:02 if you want to play safe, try in a vm first Aug 06 07:49:48 Alison_Chaiken: awesome Aug 06 07:50:20 I preserved pre-installed Windows and installed two MeeGos alongside. If you don't want Tablet and IVI (the two UXes I picked), your instructions will vary, and note that some MeeGo UXes (at least in past) will not install without overwriting the whole disk. Aug 06 07:50:33 I wish to get myself one of those but I first need to develope my skills and program a bit for the handheld I'm possibly getting Aug 06 07:51:09 netbook has an sort of sane installer Aug 06 07:51:25 I think the only bit was the boot loader Aug 06 07:52:34 Also note that when you reboot Windows, it may come up with a "disk corrupted" error or somesuch. *Ignore this warning.* If you let Windows run its disk-fixer, it will mark its partition as the only bootable one. Aug 06 07:52:44 I have some other notes about triple-booting here: Aug 06 07:52:46 http://wiki.meego.com/Installing_MeeGo_and_Handset_Images_on_ExoPC Aug 06 07:53:03 although they are for MeeGo 1.1 and may be largely irrelevant now. Aug 06 07:53:18 The other URL is for MeeGo 1.2 ISOs. Aug 06 07:53:42 as someone a backup of win7 ? Aug 06 07:54:10 Yes, reikalusikka, +1 for the "different order." Aug 06 07:54:11 wrong channel? Aug 06 07:54:59 I've kept the Windows pre-install on all the devices I have, but I have never ever booted it except to see whether it still worked. Aug 06 07:55:58 thank u guys Aug 06 07:56:15 1 AM here: off to bed. Plenty of time to ruin more expensive HW tomorrow. Aug 06 07:57:29 i think i should work with meego on usb drive for now until i find a clearly steps for install it :) Aug 06 07:58:21 bBye Aug 06 08:10:44 * arfoll is proud his OBS release cycle must has been made official - http://twitpic.com/609oge Aug 06 08:16:32 arfoll: LOL Aug 06 08:19:31 :D Aug 06 08:21:43 re all Aug 06 10:35:28 dm8tbr: I'm beginning to wonder if someone is taking the main OBS down at the weekend Aug 06 10:38:00 lbt: did you see the twitter image? Aug 06 10:38:07 https://twitter.com/#!/tbr23/status/99776577478475776 Aug 06 10:38:11 someone posted it here Aug 06 10:38:39 nrofl Aug 06 10:40:42 its the truth... Aug 06 10:41:04 btw does anyone know how to configure twm to not need a mouse click to create a window? Aug 06 10:45:27 so is this the 4th weekend in a row? Aug 06 10:46:09 yup Aug 06 10:46:19 man twm? Aug 06 10:46:39 has there been even a single response? Aug 06 10:46:59 i havent heard anything, except that anas may be on holiday Aug 06 10:47:17 pebcak, i didn't find anything that looked like it :-( Aug 06 10:53:18 arfoll did you try UsePPosition Aug 06 10:57:08 pebcak, makes no difference Aug 06 10:57:42 i also tried RandomPlacement but doesnt change either Aug 06 10:58:03 i set UsePPosition to "off" since the default in "on" Aug 06 11:10:17 well i fixed my issue by switching to openbox... Aug 06 11:13:07 hehe Aug 06 11:13:23 * pebcak is fvwmuser Aug 06 11:28:51 lbt, i'm not sure my image will make the bug taken seriously but at least it might make some smile :-) Aug 06 12:01:52 * dm8tbr presents http://isobsdown.bfst.de/ Aug 06 12:02:50 it reflects the state of build.meego.com as to http availability. driven by icinga, so a full state transition may take 10min or more from UP to DWON Aug 06 12:05:15 That just figures Aug 06 12:05:26 3rd freaking USB port I've lost. Aug 06 12:06:06 wrong channel. Aug 06 12:22:05 timoph, if obs is down then making light sabres is tricky Aug 06 12:22:23 I can see obi wan sitting there clicking f5 Aug 06 12:33:55 * lcuk writes a paper on "Compiling MeeGo apps without scratchbox or OBS" Aug 06 12:35:39 gabrbedd, Aug 06 12:35:50 would this be able to interface with your stuff: Aug 06 12:35:52 http://sandst1.wordpress.com/2011/08/06/funkeysynth-0-12-1-for-harmattan-available/ Aug 06 12:36:20 so a collection of meego devices could happily work together to produce awesome music Aug 06 12:46:31 http://build.meego.com/package/files?package=xorg-x11-drv-fbdev-sgx&project=MeeGo%3A1.2.0%3Anon-oss Aug 06 12:47:38 lbt, timoph - you guys are good with obs, can you give me a hint how I would download this and work with it - I do not know the mechanism to merging the patches etc Aug 06 12:48:20 branch it to your home in the c.obs Aug 06 12:48:59 branching it does not extract the patches though Aug 06 12:49:15 osc branch MeeGo.com:MeeGo:1.2.0:non-oss xorg-x11-drv-fbdev-sgx home:lcuk Aug 06 12:49:49 frankly the correct solution is to find the git repo Aug 06 12:49:58 but if you check the tarball into git Aug 06 12:50:11 then apply each of the patches in order as commits Aug 06 12:50:19 (quilt to git) Aug 06 12:50:46 then you have a nice git repo checkout and any changes you make will be additional patches Aug 06 12:51:00 so git to quilt to recreate them Aug 06 12:51:31 lbt, I had the same issue when I was creating .spec file for libliqbase Aug 06 12:51:47 I did not know how to make the patches rather than editing inside the .tar.gz Aug 06 12:54:08 infact, exactly the same when I was trying to fix bug 20099 Aug 06 12:54:11 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20099 nor, High, ---, geoff, ASSI, [CE] Calculator crashes after pressing any button and then "." . Aug 06 12:54:59 thanks for the command line to create a branch, I now have the fbdev package on my branch Aug 06 13:02:56 * lcuk would be further to fixing bug 13084 had I been able to complete this puzzle Aug 06 13:02:59 Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13084 maj, Medium, ---, liquid, ASSI, [n900] Horizontal tearing with xvimagesink Aug 06 13:16:55 hi, does meego (netbook) have some sort of gksudo ? Aug 06 13:17:23 I've noticed fuse module is not loaded by default from Meego and I have to find some good way from a UI to load it, any suggestions? Thanks in advance Aug 06 13:21:26 someone.. ? :) Aug 06 13:22:12 what is gksudo? Aug 06 13:23:22 a way to prompt for password inside an UI , like kdesudo or gksudo Aug 06 13:27:44 my software needs to load fuse module since meego doesn't do it by default, what would be the best solution to get it loaded? Aug 06 13:33:34 will meego ever ship mplayer/mencoder? Aug 06 13:35:58 bulletxt, yes. In 3.4 due for release in 2016 Aug 06 13:36:43 as for your sudo problem, not sure Aug 06 13:36:56 can you load the module as part of the init.d thingies? Aug 06 13:45:56 lbt, there is no direct quilt file given with the patches on fbdev so that approach will not work Aug 06 13:46:02 * lcuk pulls hair out Aug 06 13:46:24 lcuk: at least you have hair, think of poor Elop Aug 06 13:46:29 lcuk: patch order is specified in .spec Aug 06 13:47:21 lbt, sure it is but that is not a direct working mechanism, how do people actually work on obs currently? Aug 06 13:47:27 or does everybody have this issue Aug 06 13:49:40 How can i compile Qt Apps for WeTab using MeeGo SDK ? as this page says "You can find all the official MeeGo SDK for native WeTab apps here" it should be possible ! anyone tried ? http://wetab.mobi/en/developers/downloads-and-howtos/ Aug 06 13:49:42 it does not help that searching google for "OBS" comes up with "jobs" as auto correction Aug 06 13:50:28 I don't want to use VM! i already have a WeTab device ! Aug 06 14:06:16 I'm wondering why N9's UI looks different from UI on Handset UX or Tablet UX? Is N9's MeeGo UI was made by Nokia? Aug 06 14:07:26 AWasisto: it's a different UI, that's why it looks different Aug 06 14:07:27 Yes. Aug 06 14:07:54 But UI is supposed to be one of the differentiation points. Aug 06 14:08:58 Nokia wants their customers to know they spent their hard earned money on a Nokia product Aug 06 14:10:34 AWasisto, the N9's UI is based on the Handset UX. it only has some closed-source plugins Aug 06 14:13:11 Is it Open-Source? Can we port it to Handset UX? *I think Nokia won't open the source* Aug 06 14:13:54 as I said, it has closed-source plugins. Aug 06 14:13:58 We should develop our UI ourselves... Aug 06 14:14:05 eg. swipe and their three homescreens are closed. Aug 06 14:14:46 swipe itself is not revolutionary, the n900 homescreens do it Aug 06 14:14:52 Swipe should clearly be reimplemented. Aug 06 14:15:02 lcuk, completely missing the point. Aug 06 14:15:12 EVERY mobile platform does that. Aug 06 14:15:12 which point is that? Aug 06 14:15:19 But they don't do it everywhere. Aug 06 14:15:19 lcuk, swipe to switch apps is what's revolutionary Aug 06 14:15:29 Which is what's notable about swipe. Aug 06 14:15:47 * lcuk shrugs Aug 06 14:16:10 i don't know if "revolutionary" is really appropriate Aug 06 14:16:13 N900 don't have swipe. It just have multiple homescreen. Aug 06 14:16:26 berndhs, used it yet? Aug 06 14:16:39 lightbulbs were revoulutionary as opposed to candles Aug 06 14:16:53 Revolutionary is probably a stretch, but it's awfully slick. Aug 06 14:17:10 swipe instead of buttons isn't revolutionary, unless you work for marketing :) Aug 06 14:17:27 When you start trying to use a new UI concept on every other platform you use, well. Aug 06 14:17:42 berndhs, wait until you have it in your hands. Aug 06 14:17:46 oh give me a break Aug 06 14:18:04 and hand it off to people and watch their eyes light up. Aug 06 14:19:44 too much hype these days, kreeping into engineering talk as well Aug 06 14:20:20 Meh Aug 06 14:20:29 Use it first, then get back to me. Aug 06 14:20:46 GAN900, you complain you are not using it in #harmattan Aug 06 14:21:03 i get back to you when I feel like it, not when you say :) Aug 06 14:21:27 lcuk, 'cause it doesn't do what I need it to do for daily use. Aug 06 14:21:49 berndhs, relax, guy, nobody has honor on the line here. ;) Aug 06 14:22:24 GAN900: i dont like people telling me when i can talk and when i can't, I'm a big believer in free speech Aug 06 14:22:43 GAN900: and you in particular cannot tell me when to speak and when not to Aug 06 14:23:07 free speech != talk whenever you like Aug 06 14:23:25 arfoll: you can't either :) Aug 06 14:23:59 * arfoll whitsles Aug 06 14:24:07 * arfoll can't spell Aug 06 14:24:13 very melodic indeed Aug 06 14:24:20 https://build.pub.meego.com/search/search?search_text=ti-omap3-sgx-devel&commit=Search&project=1&package=1&name=1&title=1&description=1&attribute=&advanced=on Aug 06 14:24:20 Search results for "ti-omap3-sgx-devel" (0) Aug 06 14:24:20 Your search returned no results. Aug 06 14:24:33 * lcuk gives up on obs for today Aug 06 14:24:40 berndhs, very melodramatic. Aug 06 14:25:04 lcuk, pkg name won't have -devel Aug 06 14:25:05 ah nevermind Aug 06 14:25:10 It was merely a suggestion that using it in person may be a revealing and pleasant experience. Aug 06 14:25:28 Which one is better for my N900? Handset UX? Or Tablet UX? I mean better for application testing. Aug 06 14:25:35 arfoll, Search results for "ti-omap3-sgx" (0) Aug 06 14:25:36 Your search returned no results. Aug 06 14:25:36 oh i am sure it is very pleasant and it is a very good user interface Aug 06 14:25:42 Not a pronouncement from on high to shackle you in the dungeons. Aug 06 14:25:43 thanks though Aug 06 14:25:48 Or both is good? Aug 06 14:25:58 lcuk, isn't it ti-omap3-gfx? Aug 06 14:26:27 i just don't like marketing hype, so I call people on it in engineering channels Aug 06 14:26:29 arfoll, I have a clone of https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=xorg-x11-drv-fbdev-sgx&project=home%3Alcuk Aug 06 14:26:36 it says that it is unresolvable Aug 06 14:26:46 in marketing channels it is a different story Aug 06 14:26:50 since its unresolvable I searched for the package it said had the problem Aug 06 14:27:08 * lcuk is really trying to advance and fix video rendering bug Aug 06 14:27:27 well problem is that the pkg has the wrong name in PkgBR Aug 06 14:27:31 When is SDK for 64-bit System will be released? Aug 06 14:27:45 arfoll, how does the same package build on the main obs? Aug 06 14:27:56 since it is happily installed on my n900-ce Aug 06 14:28:14 ie, it is resolved Aug 06 14:28:26 lcuk, pkg fails on meego obs too Aug 06 14:28:39 huh/ Aug 06 14:28:47 ? Aug 06 14:29:28 lcuk, my bad was looking in trunk:non-oss Aug 06 14:29:44 trunk:non-oss might be what I need to add Aug 06 14:29:54 but IDK how to do this, its all way over my head Aug 06 14:30:06 where did you clone from? Aug 06 14:30:28 osc branch MeeGo.com:MeeGo:1.2.0:non-oss xorg-x11-drv-fbdev-sgx home:lcuk Aug 06 14:30:57 lcuk, you probably want to branch from devel:devices:n900 Aug 06 14:31:42 personally, I would rather ask somebody who understands how this all works to do it and fix the bug while they are at it ;) Aug 06 14:31:42 and you'll want to branch the ti-omap3-sgx pkg as well because it lives there Aug 06 14:33:38 I don't think I have seen devel:devices:n900 anywhere on the cobs, let me see if I can find it. thanks Aug 06 14:34:09 its not, its on meego obs MeeGo.com:devel:devices:n900 Aug 06 14:35:06 ahh yet more indirection, no wonder the web interface would not list them Aug 06 14:35:28 if you look on the web interface for meego.com it will actually tell you the pkg is managed in that dir Aug 06 14:36:07 when branching from meego obs its best to check on there first, then do the branch from where the pkg is actually managed Aug 06 14:37:08 arfoll, thanks, I see the searching bringing back many results now \o/ Aug 06 14:37:34 http://build.meego.com/search/search?search_text=ti-omap3-sgx&commit=Search&project=1&package=1&name=1&attribute=&advanced=on Aug 06 14:37:37 lcuk, no worries, working from c.obs for meego pkg is always a bit of a pain Aug 06 14:37:57 well I have to make sure any potential fix works first! Aug 06 14:38:14 * lcuk would feel happier opening *.vbp :) Aug 06 14:56:18 if i have to pull a file off a usb stick, and i forgot my external keyboard, (exopc) what is the best way to do this? Aug 06 15:02:31 anyone knows something about translating the meego of N9? will this project gonna help? https://meego.transifex.net/projects/p/meego/r/meego-1-2/ Aug 06 15:02:52 no, the N9 doesn't use transifex Aug 06 15:04:35 do you know how it will be done? for N900 we had used transifex Aug 06 15:06:03 blauzahl_, vkb? Aug 06 15:07:24 retarded laptop. I typed in my password wrong once to many and it went to sleep Aug 06 15:09:59 CosmoHill, nothing new there Aug 06 15:10:06 computers only do as we tell them Aug 06 15:10:08 from the screen saver Aug 06 15:11:01 some screen saver designs are peculiar indeed Aug 06 15:14:00 hi! Aug 06 15:14:15 anybody can help with powervr? Aug 06 15:17:27 could there be a problem with powervr and xorg 1.10? Aug 06 15:17:34 lcuk: can you do that in the xterm? i don't think i get that in the meego version i have installed Aug 06 15:18:00 blauzahl_, not sure, I thought wetab had one? Aug 06 15:18:06 err exopc rather Aug 06 15:19:21 not in this version anyway, afaikt. Aug 06 15:20:35 blauzahl_: ssh into the meego machine Aug 06 15:22:24 no pvr experts here? Aug 06 15:33:00 mase76: unless you manage to state your problem in a more meaningful way nobody will care Aug 06 15:34:58 i installed debian sid on the n900. i copied the closed libs from meego to it. also i use its kernel. the modules pvrsrvkm and omaplfb were loaded. pvrsrvinit was run. however x does not start in accelerated mode. Aug 06 15:36:00 a) this is not a meego problem Aug 06 15:36:23 b) you would have more chances on #meego-arm if at all, but carsten seems not to be online this weekend Aug 06 15:36:31 i did not say, that it is a meego problem. i only asked for some help. Aug 06 15:37:19 debian on n900 adding unusual non-debian stuff sounds like a low percentage shot Aug 06 15:37:21 Isn't debian compiled for armv5, and Meego for armv7 hardfp? Aug 06 15:38:22 debian armhf is coming Aug 06 15:39:35 If you copy closed hardfp libs onto softp system, it wont work, right? Aug 06 15:39:50 you can use both, just not together Aug 06 15:40:00 I thought it was only where fp calls were made? Aug 06 15:40:00 ShadowJK: extremely unlikely Aug 06 15:40:01 at least the kernel runs. Aug 06 15:40:20 kernel can be compiled however you want Aug 06 15:40:29 kernel doesn't have floating point ;p Aug 06 15:40:32 kernel and userpsace don't pass FP Aug 06 15:40:48 and 2d pvr also works. Aug 06 15:41:19 mase76: basically you'll want to find the _old_ SGX blobs that were compiled for armv7l Aug 06 16:08:50 if I want to launch a new gui app from within an existing one Aug 06 16:08:56 how would I go about this? Aug 06 16:09:06 (in maemo there was an osso command for it) Aug 06 16:09:34 ( osso_rpc_async_run ) Aug 06 16:11:18 QProcess should work, shouldn't it ? Aug 06 16:12:13 ot just int system (const char *command) Aug 06 16:13:37 berndhs, ta, will try later \o Aug 06 18:47:16 Sage, what apps do you use with your wacom? Aug 06 19:26:22 lcuk: yeah, funkeysynth would probably work fine (through pulseaudio) Aug 06 19:31:57 gabrbedd, funkeysynth works really well, except for the playing music part Aug 06 19:32:32 what? no output? Aug 06 19:36:04 lofty306, nope Aug 06 19:49:03 lcuk: hee hee. :-( Aug 06 19:50:21 did I hear about an intel os somewhere or other last couple of days? Aug 06 19:51:22 http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/parallax-parallel-computing/?cid=sw:social_software_om Aug 06 19:51:24 ahh Aug 06 20:15:27 there is hope for connman and ipv6 http://connman.net/blogs/sameo/2011/connman-076 Aug 06 20:17:06 for the log record :) Aug 06 20:20:35 berndhs, nice Aug 06 20:20:47 ad-hoc networking is one of the other limitation Aug 06 20:21:29 actually now that you mention it, ad-hoc would be really valuable for the marine stuff Aug 06 20:21:42 networking to other boats/ships close by Aug 06 20:22:02 berndhs, what information would you give that isn't provided by AIS? Aug 06 20:22:08 don't know if that's at the level of these devices though Aug 06 20:22:28 AIS ? in what context ? Aug 06 20:22:44 well ships communicating over wifi to do what? Aug 06 20:23:05 to cooperate, like avoid collisions Aug 06 20:23:21 in cases where satellite links are slow Aug 06 20:23:27 AIS allready does that, wifi would be not be terribly good at that Aug 06 20:23:34 or other small fleet stuff Aug 06 20:24:02 similar to talking on radio, jsut chat Aug 06 20:24:35 in my mind adhoc would be nice on small boats to remove infrastructure for people connecting mobile devices to their boat Aug 06 20:24:45 on larger boats there would allready be wifi Aug 06 20:24:46 i would suggest collaborative sonar for fishing vessels Aug 06 20:25:04 lcuk, because fisherman are the most cooperative guys ;-) Aug 06 20:25:17 yes for fairly small boats that cooperate fairly locally Aug 06 20:25:42 lol usually fisherman turn off AIS and all comms when finishing so that other boats dont see where they are fishing and copy Aug 06 20:25:47 normal wifi is too short range, but that's mainly an issue of antennas I think Aug 06 20:26:06 yes but they allready have comm radios on all their ships with v.good range Aug 06 20:26:18 chat is better than talk radio Aug 06 20:26:27 and exchange of simple data Aug 06 20:26:50 any given weekend, there must be hundreds of races in the world Aug 06 20:27:14 thousands of parties to coordinate Aug 06 20:27:20 consumer stuff Aug 06 20:27:31 and they all have a VHF due to regulations Aug 06 20:27:48 yes but still, text chat is better than talk for many purposes Aug 06 20:27:50 can't organise a race and force everyone to have a directional wifi antenna Aug 06 20:28:07 text chat in a race would be useless, can't maintain sails, navigate and type at the same time ;-) Aug 06 20:28:14 voice is the only way Aug 06 20:28:21 i don't think so Aug 06 20:28:48 the NATO planes bombing Libya communicate with AWACs by IRC Aug 06 20:28:59 at least some of them Aug 06 20:29:15 yeah planes, they dont wear gloves, have splashing water and usually handled by a very small team of guys without a dedicated comm team ;-) Aug 06 20:29:34 you need 1 person that can read, and 1 person that can type Aug 06 20:29:46 if that's a dedicated comm team... Aug 06 20:29:54 bwah Aug 06 20:29:57 even on the big racing yachts there arent 2 spare guys for that Aug 06 20:30:10 you need 0.1 spare guy maybe Aug 06 20:30:34 people already read all kinds of stuff during a race Aug 06 20:30:57 use large fonts :) Aug 06 20:31:03 and what kind of keyboard? Aug 06 20:31:22 water resistant Aug 06 20:31:26 on a AWACs they can fit a whole desktop PC with a keyboard and CRT monitor Aug 06 20:31:33 and a chair for the guy sitting at it Aug 06 20:31:56 you velcro a tablet to someplace vertical Aug 06 20:33:00 actually i've done that, its nearly impossible to type as the ship moves too much. when on anchor it's ok Aug 06 20:33:20 mind you this was a wetab not exactly the nicest touchscreen ever Aug 06 20:33:22 right, that's why they will need my new-fangled outdoor UI :) Aug 06 20:34:02 outdoor? i've only seen real nasty touchscreens that can wistand marine water Aug 06 20:34:16 for stuff that moves on you, and for people with bad coordination Aug 06 20:34:50 sounds like a UI for me Aug 06 20:35:12 touchscreen that can hold against marine conditions? Aug 06 20:35:26 Bostik, yeah you know any? Aug 06 20:35:28 I would love the see specs for that Aug 06 20:35:36 raymarine do some touschreen stuff but its real nasty Aug 06 20:36:15 all kinds of electronic hold up in marine conditions Aug 06 20:36:39 but you can't rely on intricate millimeter accurate gestures Aug 06 20:37:01 definitly no capacitive screens Aug 06 20:37:11 combination of constant splashy humidity with occasional freezing AND salt sounds like possibly the most hostile environment to electronics.. Aug 06 20:37:31 there already are plenty of electronics that cope with that Aug 06 20:37:49 goodness Aug 06 20:37:58 and very little recreational boating takes place in freezing conditions Aug 06 20:38:16 berndhs, they do freeze at port Aug 06 20:38:17 really? Aug 06 20:38:28 finland have immense boating community Aug 06 20:38:33 so you take the tablet with you Aug 06 20:38:33 england too Aug 06 20:38:41 berndhs, and your plotter? Aug 06 20:39:02 I'm talking about the UI, not plotters Aug 06 20:39:24 well you cant hang your tablet outside the boat, so its no fun Aug 06 20:39:27 there are lots of recreational sailors where it freezes, but they don't sail in the winter Aug 06 20:40:22 actually I think one big problem is reading displays in bright sunlight Aug 06 20:40:22 in scandic region they sail well into the time when it can freeze for a while at nght Aug 06 20:40:38 not too gladly, but they apparently do.. Aug 06 20:40:46 so what apps do you need where internet is spotty, weather is changeable and the only thing you can probably get really clear signal from is gps? Aug 06 20:40:47 but i think berndhs is talking about a tablet that you can keep inside the boat and take out at night etc... Aug 06 20:40:59 right, mobile stuff Aug 06 20:41:01 (I know of one) Aug 06 20:41:24 calendar Aug 06 20:41:25 lcuk, you get VHF and AIS too and sometimes sattelite internet. Not so isolated. Aug 06 20:41:27 lcuk: email Aug 06 20:41:33 and the point of my project is that the current mobile UIs are not right for this type of use Aug 06 20:41:39 arfoll, conceptual question Aug 06 20:41:48 thinking in terms of boating is practical Aug 06 20:41:57 because in peoples minds it is distant Aug 06 20:42:02 and use cases would be different Aug 06 20:42:11 but equally good apps will work in your lounge Aug 06 20:42:46 actually that is another point, some people will use the "outdoor" UI on their sofas Aug 06 20:43:01 charter vessels need contisgnment and hold details Aug 06 20:43:07 and most importantly, IMAP email - since you get a listing of subjects as opposec to whole spammed-into-oblivion mailbox Aug 06 20:43:13 consignment Aug 06 20:43:23 many people buy off-road capable cars, practically none of them ever drive off road Aug 06 20:43:30 indeed berndhs Aug 06 20:43:40 berndhs, yeah but eveyryone that buys a boat puts it in water ;-) Aug 06 20:43:48 * arfoll hopes anyways Aug 06 20:43:52 I'm told satellite phone data is obscenely priced Aug 06 20:43:58 i maintain that good apps must work in supermarkets without gps or phone systems Aug 06 20:44:07 they put their boats in water, but 80% of them never leave the dock Aug 06 20:44:41 berndhs, oh definately true. isn't it the average leisure boat is used 5 days a year? Aug 06 20:44:50 consignment tracking and linking with port systems and mapping would be good Aug 06 20:45:08