**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 19 02:59:57 2008 Mar 19 03:23:50 hi guys! Mar 19 03:24:04 does somebody may help me with asterisk ? Mar 19 19:33:25 'lo Mar 19 19:33:29 eno ?> Mar 19 20:04:36 hi@all Mar 19 20:04:42 hi Mar 19 20:05:19 any software developers here ? Mar 19 20:10:47 ido-, probab Mar 19 20:10:49 probably Mar 19 20:10:58 i suppose, i class as one, just not commerically Mar 19 20:11:22 I'd like to ask about the other kind then :) Mar 19 20:11:40 Whats your question? Mar 19 20:13:12 actually i'd like to know how much does one make in developing c/c++ and in what country Mar 19 20:29:30 uk Mar 19 20:29:42 250-350 GBP per day Mar 19 20:35:55 But of course, it depends on the company and such Mar 19 20:35:57 and skill Mar 19 20:36:05 and experience Mar 19 20:37:38 sure. those are contract rates for seasoned developer. not trainee's Mar 19 22:02:44 hrm. Mar 19 22:03:06 barnseenio, here? Mar 19 22:03:18 i am Mar 19 22:03:45 is that rate for per project/contract Mar 19 22:03:52 or a full time job? Mar 19 22:03:59 250-350 GBP per day Mar 19 22:04:05 contract rate Mar 19 22:04:09 oh Mar 19 22:04:16 and whats the monthly salary ? Mar 19 22:04:21 for a full time job Mar 19 22:04:42 for pro developer Mar 19 22:04:53 30-50k GBP per yr Mar 19 22:04:54 how much hours per week/month is a full time job in the uk ? Mar 19 22:04:57 40 Mar 19 22:05:01 week Mar 19 22:05:20 20-30 for trainee/student Mar 19 22:05:24 170 hours per month ? cool. Mar 19 22:05:32 20-30k gbp for student Mar 19 22:05:58 graduate with 1-2 years exp. in C/linux ? Mar 19 22:06:37 20-30 Mar 19 22:06:56 although C/linux skills not in massive demand in .uk market Mar 19 22:07:16 embedded/networking Mar 19 22:07:38 what is in demand ? Mar 19 22:07:46 .NET/java developers? Mar 19 22:07:48 java, c#, asp.net Mar 19 22:08:08 do they earn just about the same or less then C/C++ devel. ? Mar 19 22:08:32 full time, probly slightly more for C/C++ guys Mar 19 22:08:42 oh really ? geesh. Mar 19 22:08:55 only becuase it tends to be a bit more niche Mar 19 22:09:14 control systems, financial transactions Mar 19 22:09:25 well over here they make a bit less. Mar 19 22:09:38 as higher level languages are usually less demanding Mar 19 22:09:50 less demanding programming skills that is Mar 19 22:09:57 not much less though. Mar 19 22:10:21 well, it really depends on the place, but I'm talking in general. Mar 19 22:10:25 you want to view uk skills/pay/opportunities then the best site is www.jobserve.com Mar 19 22:10:36 it gives very good indication of whats on offer in uk Mar 19 22:11:06 actually i prefer relocating to the US Mar 19 22:11:30 just wondering how much they make in other parts of the world .. Mar 19 22:11:37 but i'll check that out Mar 19 22:11:51 depends where the work is Mar 19 22:12:12 if you moved to india, you wouldnt get much ;) Mar 19 22:12:19 lol. Mar 19 22:12:37 actually 30gbp per year isn't that shabby. Mar 19 22:12:49 am i right? Mar 19 22:13:01 30k wouldnt be Mar 19 22:13:07 30gbp would be ;) Mar 19 22:13:20 30kgbp Mar 19 22:13:37 kgbps Mar 19 22:13:37 depends where you live Mar 19 22:13:48 30k gbp is not much money if you live in london Mar 19 22:14:02 but its plenty for some other major cities Mar 19 22:14:05 is london that expensive ? Mar 19 22:14:06 20k - 30k is considered "average" in the uk aint it? Mar 19 22:14:13 y i'd say Mar 19 22:14:27 ido, on uni loans, if you in london, you can get nearly 2k more a year for maintenance Mar 19 22:14:40 yes you couldnt afford to live on your own in london on 30k Mar 19 22:14:57 the uk national minimum wage is £5.52ph hour for 22 years + Mar 19 22:14:58 have to share with someone/partner Mar 19 22:15:23 hrm. Mar 19 22:15:28 so it really isn't thatmuch. Mar 19 22:15:38 not in london Mar 19 22:15:40 so London's out of the picture. Mar 19 22:15:59 depends, tech jobs pay better in the south Mar 19 22:16:10 obviously because of cost of living Mar 19 22:16:18 you can live in the london suburbs, but its not cheap either... Mar 19 22:16:36 400GBP per day contract rates for developers in london Mar 19 22:16:52 wow. thats a lot. Mar 19 22:17:11 But I'm barely a graduate.. Mar 19 22:17:15 it all depends on the work Mar 19 22:17:26 then you would struggle to get a contract position imo Mar 19 22:17:27 some database admins and gurus charge 1000's per day, plus travelling expenses and such Mar 19 22:17:52 apart from when the market was really nuts, contract guys tend to really need experience on cv Mar 19 22:18:16 Yeah, definately Mar 19 22:18:20 how about Ireland ? Mar 19 22:18:36 booming economy Mar 19 22:18:51 ido-, depending on what you want.. there are some fairly big software companies around the UK, and some big games companies Mar 19 22:19:13 i'd def consider ireland if i was a frisky youngster like Reedy_Boy Mar 19 22:19:27 * Reedy_Boy needs to finish his degree first Mar 19 22:19:41 are you studying CS ? Mar 19 22:19:54 ITs listed as CSD, but its Software Engineering to MEng Mar 19 22:19:57 I can earn £100+ a day doing IT support now :) Mar 19 22:20:25 IT support make that much ? Mar 19 22:20:38 well, thats with me being paid £15ph Mar 19 22:20:39 ugh :/ Mar 19 22:20:44 whats MEng? Mar 19 22:20:47 the companies are charged £25 ph for my time Mar 19 22:20:50 Masters of Engineering Mar 19 22:20:58 My "boss" charges £35/40ph onsite Mar 19 22:21:02 and whats CSD ? Mar 19 22:21:11 Computer Software Development Mar 19 22:21:27 ok. Mar 19 22:21:31 My uni call it that, but its technically SE (Soft. Eng.) like the rest of the uk uni's call it Mar 19 22:21:59 on your last year ? Mar 19 22:22:07 I havent finished my first year of uni yet... So im still 3 and a bit years from employment Mar 19 22:22:16 ugh. Mar 19 22:22:18 sucks. Mar 19 22:22:23 all those first class years Mar 19 22:22:24 lol, im not bothered Mar 19 22:22:26 its not difficult Mar 19 22:22:32 I'm on my fourth Mar 19 22:22:37 Im just more filling in little gaps in knowledge Mar 19 22:23:00 first year to my recollection was quite boring Mar 19 22:23:17 the fun part starts somewhere in second or third Mar 19 22:23:21 Its not boring, just a bit pointless Mar 19 22:23:26 Some of the modules especially Mar 19 22:23:33 And the relatively empty timetable Mar 19 22:23:42 and the math. Mar 19 22:23:46 lol, my cs degree was a complete waste of time :/ Mar 19 22:23:47 * Reedy_Boy doesnt do any math Mar 19 22:23:58 I did A-Level Maths, so dont have to do any maths modules Mar 19 22:24:24 oh wait. this is your masters degree.. right/ Mar 19 22:24:24 I've been programming for 2 years before i started uni, and i've been quite involved with an open source wikipedia based project with 1000+ users, so i get quite a bit of practise Mar 19 22:24:32 Yeah.. Mar 19 22:24:56 i'm on myfirst one Mar 19 22:25:08 Im 19 - i havent got a degree Mar 19 22:25:11 its a bit confusing Mar 19 22:25:37 I've gone straight onto a course that finishes with a Masters Degree Mar 19 22:25:48 hrm. Mar 19 22:25:55 it is confusing then. Mar 19 22:26:06 yeah Mar 19 22:26:17 how long is the "degree" in total? Mar 19 22:26:27 rather than doing a bachelors then making it into a masters Mar 19 22:26:31 lol my case was similar Reedy_Boy. I did my degree part-time when i was already employed as a developer. i was spending the day writing apps on sybase/sql server. then going in the evenings to learn (seemingly) inane languages like prolog, and other wierd stuff which had little real world relevance Mar 19 22:26:31 mines 4 years Mar 19 22:26:40 xD Mar 19 22:26:50 but you could fit it into 2 Mar 19 22:26:57 i know they are trying to teach fundamentals and stuff, but on my course, it just sucked Mar 19 22:27:00 reedy: so it just sounds like you are doing a regular Bsci followed immiediately by the Masters? Mar 19 22:27:18 Im doing the degree "full time" (which i loads of free time), and work part time Mar 19 22:27:36 pear, more a less, just there are some specific modules that i have to do Mar 19 22:27:41 its just down as MEng Mar 19 22:28:00 pear: if he can fit his MA in 2, how can you do a BA+extension to MA in 2 as well ? Mar 19 22:28:10 noo Mar 19 22:28:29 i got it wrong, heh Mar 19 22:28:32 im saying, there is enough time with the free time during the week, and the holiday periods, that you could do a 4 year degree in 2 Mar 19 22:28:43 Bachelors, in the UK is traditionally 3 years Mar 19 22:28:46 then + 1 years for Masters Mar 19 22:28:50 that could still count as 2 years. Mar 19 22:29:03 weird. Mar 19 22:29:07 * Reedy_Boy shrugs Mar 19 22:29:11 where are you from ido- ? Mar 19 22:29:15 Israel Mar 19 22:29:31 a BA is 3 years, however BSc takes 4 Mar 19 22:29:39 reedy: but you need that time to study and research. you ned time to allow some concepts to sink in. Mar 19 22:29:47 so the "free time" is essential Mar 19 22:29:55 i got 65% and 85% in my january exams Mar 19 22:29:58 I'm not sure about masters, but I think it takes at least 2 years, and in some places 3 Mar 19 22:30:02 weird Mar 19 22:31:29 ido-: you guys must learn extra Koballa stuffs in your Masters, they only take a year here in the UK :) Mar 19 22:31:52 no jewish stuff included Mar 19 22:32:01 only math/CS stuff Mar 19 22:32:08 ;) i was just messing Mar 19 22:32:25 i dunno, it must just be radically different, structure-wise Mar 19 22:32:26 well, except a few extra courses you can choose from other facoulties Mar 19 22:32:36 could be.. Mar 19 22:32:43 hmm Mar 19 22:32:49 we have free electives Mar 19 22:33:00 are you talking about universities ? Mar 19 22:35:29 we are Mar 19 22:36:00 okay. Mar 19 22:36:15 I'm going to install a cross dev env. Mar 19 22:36:30 where should i start Mar 19 22:36:33 for slugLE Mar 19 22:38:26 http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/BuildANewerThttpdOrOtherUtilityByCrossCompiling Mar 19 22:38:30 whast this ? Mar 19 22:39:15 or should i do this via optware pacakges ? Mar 19 22:43:48 may the force be with you Mar 19 22:44:26 eh. Mar 19 22:44:34 how about an answer ? Mar 19 22:44:45 I'm interested in re-building rtorrent Mar 19 22:46:48 lol Mar 19 22:46:59 you want someone such as eno... but they will point you to the wiki if its there Mar 19 22:48:06 ido-: slugos cross toolchain comes from OE (openembedded) Mar 19 22:48:09 actually eno is helpful, but he's not here much, is he ? Mar 19 22:48:18 ouu. herehe is. Mar 19 22:48:34 eno: which means.. ? Mar 19 22:48:37 the thttpd wiki probably is outdated Mar 19 22:49:44 so where should i start ? Mar 19 22:50:29 sorry, i'm at work, and sometimes co-worker come and talk to me Mar 19 22:51:24 for rtorrent, i suggest you start build OE toolchain start from the master makefile Mar 19 22:51:35 hrm Mar 19 22:51:47 and then setup optware/slugosle environment Mar 19 22:52:24 hrm. Mar 19 22:52:52 so basically buildthe mastermakefile like the wiki describes ? Mar 19 22:54:20 the master makefile allow you to build either latest-and-greatest (monotone head), or a release version Mar 19 22:54:42 you want slugos release 4.x release Mar 19 22:55:48 i'm not sure I'm following Mar 19 22:56:03 why do i need that AND the optware build env .? Mar 19 22:56:08 http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/Optware/SlugosbeDevel Mar 19 22:56:23 doesnt it include crossdev compiler ? Mar 19 22:56:58 optware/slugosle relies on slugosle OE toolchain Mar 19 22:57:11 oh. Mar 19 22:59:07 ido-: look at the "Building release-specific minimum required toolchains" section Mar 19 22:59:14 of http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/Optware/SlugosbeDevel Mar 19 22:59:36 replace slugosbe with slugosle for your setup Mar 19 23:00:44 once you have the setup, you can just "make rtorrent-ipk" in optware/slugole/ Mar 19 23:01:31 eno, this sounds familiar ;) Mar 19 23:05:09 ido-, when you've gone through and its build the dependancies Mar 19 23:05:21 you can do "make dependancyname-ipk" to have an ipk made for it Mar 19 23:06:28 hrm. Mar 19 23:06:35 i'll just msg you when i get there :P) Mar 19 23:06:53 its now downloading a few extra pacakges i need for ubuntu Mar 19 23:07:20 oh damnit Mar 19 23:07:26 I'm not sure I have enough free space. Mar 19 23:07:31 under vmware Mar 19 23:08:15 i wonder if I can make another drive and mount it without rebooting Mar 19 23:09:13 seems I cant Mar 19 23:09:19 damnit. Mar 19 23:10:35 ido-, i always make them like 20GB, but not allocate the space Mar 19 23:10:39 then i can just expand it Mar 19 23:11:28 I made it 5 Mar 19 23:11:34 without allocating. Mar 19 23:11:45 lol Mar 19 23:11:46 I was looking for a minimalistic dev env. Mar 19 23:11:56 light, torun under the VM Mar 19 23:12:29 ended up using some branch of kubuntu Mar 19 23:12:46 just with less fat Mar 19 23:12:57 well, more fat then i need anyhow. Mar 19 23:23:17 ido-: 6.9G for slugos-4.8-beta Mar 19 23:27:57 ouch. Mar 19 23:27:59 damnit. Mar 19 23:28:13 i hate rebooting in themiddle Mar 19 23:28:29 losing theopen sessions Mar 19 23:35:59 whatpacakge has diff ? Mar 19 23:37:25 which package on what? Mar 19 23:38:41 optware Mar 19 23:43:58 ido-, diffutils Mar 19 23:44:47 thanks Mar 19 23:47:15 how can i check a packages' contents with ipkg without downloading the file Mar 19 23:48:12 google would possibly be a good bet Mar 19 23:48:16 or look in the SVN Mar 19 23:48:47 found it. Mar 19 23:49:03 or not. Mar 19 23:53:36 diffutils - 2.8.1-6 - contains gnu diff, cmp, sdiff and diff3 to display differences between and among text files Mar 19 23:54:49 how about diff for openwrt ? Mar 19 23:55:00 2any idea? Mar 19 23:57:54 whatya mean?# Mar 19 23:58:39 forthe openwrt firmware - what package has diff Mar 20 00:22:34 ido-: we have optware/openwrt-brmc24 and optware/openwrt-ixp4xx feeds Mar 20 00:22:50 well Mar 20 00:23:02 for what ? Mar 20 00:23:07 oh. Mar 20 00:23:09 eh Mar 20 00:23:10 okay :) Mar 20 00:23:40 damnit. ran outta space. Mar 20 00:24:01 i have all those big fat optware ipk's installed to USB HD or nfs mount Mar 20 00:24:38 no,i'm talking about the build Mar 20 01:23:09 hi all Mar 20 01:23:14 :) Mar 20 01:24:16 anyone knows where I can find 'nice' (for scheduling priority) command? Mar 20 01:24:31 which package.. Mar 20 01:26:02 coreutils Mar 20 01:29:45 i'll try Mar 20 01:38:15 eno: thanks a lot Mar 20 01:38:20 all done Mar 20 01:38:35 byebye, go to sleep :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Mar 20 02:59:56 2008