**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 30 23:59:57 2005
Jul 01 02:13:02 <ep1220> Heay All, I added some power consumption data at http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/OverClockTheSlug
Jul 01 02:15:16 <NAiL> neat
Jul 01 02:17:22 <NAiL> Wow. It's not exactly large numbers ;-)
Jul 01 02:17:46 <ep1220> Well: it shows we are getting to the max spec of the PSU
Jul 01 02:18:02 <ep1220> And I have no device on the USB bus
Jul 01 02:18:07 <NAiL> ouch
Jul 01 02:18:22 <ep1220> The PSU is rated at 2A
Jul 01 02:18:27 <NAiL> it used 1,72A before? That's not enough to have a laptop drive connected?
Jul 01 02:18:47 <ep1220> USB allows 100mA per device
Jul 01 02:18:56 <NAiL> Isn't that 500mA?
Jul 01 02:19:37 <NAiL> The maximum current that can be supplied over the USB bus without violating the USB specification is 500mA
Jul 01 02:20:00 <ep1220> Are You sure ?
Jul 01 02:20:47 <NAiL> The minimum it must be able to give is 100mA
Jul 01 02:21:18 <NAiL> but the spec says you can pull 500mA without breaking the specs
Jul 01 02:21:55 <NAiL> aha
Jul 01 02:21:56 <NAiL> High-power, bus-powered devices can draw up to 500mA after they are configured by host system software, but must not draw more than 100mA until they are configured (USB Specification, Version 1.1, Section 7.2.1)
Jul 01 02:22:20 <NAiL> (That's from MicroSoft, but ;)
Jul 01 02:23:02 <ep1220> I am sure the 100mA are in there, but could well be just for config as you say.
Jul 01 02:23:40 <ep1220> I believe most USB drives have their own PSU anyway (?)
Jul 01 02:23:47 <NAiL> Most, yes
Jul 01 02:24:18 <NAiL> But some 2.5" drives (I just ordered one. Wonder if it'll work)  pull *all* their power from the usb port
Jul 01 02:24:42 <NAiL> s/drives/enclosures)
Jul 01 02:25:01 <ep1220> So we soon will now if this works :-)
Jul 01 02:25:23 <NAiL> yeah. Not sure whether to smile or not yet :-P
Jul 01 02:25:40 <dyoung-zzzz> i think USB2 spec is 500ma
Jul 01 02:25:52 <dyoung-zzzz> USB1.1 spec is 100ma
Jul 01 02:25:54 <dyoung-zzzz> per port.
Jul 01 02:26:28 <ep1220> Anyone of you has an IR thermometer and an open slug@266 ?
Jul 01 02:26:39 <dyoung-zzzz> yeah, me
Jul 01 02:26:46 <dyoung-zzzz> its been running for 24 hours now
Jul 01 02:26:51 <dyoung-zzzz> at load avg 2.5
Jul 01 02:27:18 <ep1220> I found Q9 (close to the power-on button) regualtes the Core Supply Voltage.
Jul 01 02:27:47 <ep1220> It now has to supply higher current, so checking its temperature would be good
Jul 01 02:27:59 <dyoung-zzzz> ok, looking
Jul 01 02:30:05 <NAiL> dyoung-zzzz: Yeah, thought it was 500mA. 
Jul 01 02:30:22 <NAiL> Weren't there some people running laptop drives off of the slug?
Jul 01 02:30:39 <dyoung-zzzz> I read 42degC on that part.
Jul 01 02:30:52 <dyoung-zzzz> top and bottom of board same temp in that area.
Jul 01 02:31:08 <ep1220> 42deg is not worry some.
Jul 01 02:31:29 <ep1220> You know over how large an area your thermometer averages ?
Jul 01 02:32:11 <ep1220> sorry, have to go, Be back in 1 hour
Jul 01 02:33:42 <dyoung-zzzz> page 178 of the USB spec.
Jul 01 02:33:59 <NAiL> url? :)
Jul 01 02:34:22 <dyoung-zzzz> http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb_20_02212005.zip
Jul 01 02:34:36 <dyoung-zzzz> a "load unit" is 100ma.
Jul 01 02:35:02 <dyoung-zzzz> ep1220, I think its a 5deg beam.
Jul 01 02:35:14 <dyoung-zzzz> and its I can get around 1cm away.
Jul 01 02:38:46 <dyoung-zzzz> so far the max temp has been 52degC
Jul 01 02:38:54 <NAiL> whee... my new slug is in town :D
Jul 01 02:39:05 <NAiL> 52? On the cpu itself?
Jul 01 02:39:41 <dyoung-zzzz> Yes, in the special spot 5mm to the right of the i
Jul 01 02:39:53 <dyoung-zzzz> its the hotspot on the cpu.
Jul 01 02:42:07 <NAiL> Well.. It doesn't look good for my plan to attach two laptop drives to the slug
Jul 01 02:42:40 <NAiL> I was hoping to only have one power brick :(
Jul 01 02:42:59 <dyoung-zzzz> you need a bigger brick
Jul 01 02:43:13 <NAiL> Will the parts on the slug handle it?
Jul 01 02:43:28 <dyoung-zzzz> or a plugin power supply like I have
Jul 01 02:43:50 <NAiL> plugin power supply?
Jul 01 02:43:52 <dyoung-zzzz> I modified a power supply that I scrounged from someplace.
Jul 01 02:43:56 <NAiL> aha
Jul 01 02:44:09 <dyoung-zzzz> Computer style AC plug in, 5V 20A out.
Jul 01 02:44:15 <NAiL> wohoo
Jul 01 02:45:04 <NAiL> I was kinda hoping to have ad-hoc POE and two laptop drives. Much less cable clutter.
Jul 01 02:45:57 <dyoung-zzzz> As far as the slugl handling, I dont understand the question.  If you put 5V into the input Jack, its gonna use as much as it  uses.
Jul 01 02:46:21 <dyoung-zzzz> If youre worried about overcurrent, put a fuse inline.  Thats what I'm planning to do.
Jul 01 02:46:55 <NAiL> Yeah, just wondering about e.g. Q9, whether it'll like 1A extra being pulled through it
Jul 01 02:47:09 <dyoung-zzzz> Ohhh...
Jul 01 02:47:15 <dyoung-zzzz> I misunderstood your intention.
Jul 01 02:47:38 <dyoung-zzzz> Q9 is for the core voltage, I dont think it passes the current to the USB HCI
Jul 01 02:47:56 <NAiL> ah, yes... I forgot that part
Jul 01 02:49:24 <NAiL> bbiaw
Jul 01 03:53:26 <ep1220> NAiL: The current gets directly from the PSU input to the Power Pins on the USB connectors.
Jul 01 03:53:39 <ep1220> However there is afues in each path
Jul 01 03:53:49 <ep1220> s/afues/a fuse/
Jul 01 03:54:36 <NAiL> what's the max rating of the fuses?
Jul 01 03:55:27 <dyoung> Fuse?
Jul 01 03:55:38 <ep1220> It is FB11 and FB12 at the bottom.
Jul 01 03:55:40 <dyoung> I dont got no fuse....
Jul 01 03:55:44 <ep1220> but i saw. FB11 == 0Ohm
Jul 01 03:55:53 <ep1220> FB12 is not installed at all
Jul 01 03:55:58 <dyoung> ah right.
Jul 01 03:56:17 <dyoung> isnt that like a 1/16 W SMD Resistor
Jul 01 03:56:23 <ep1220> so on my slug seems only 1 USB port is powered
Jul 01 03:56:29 <dyoung> F1 would usually be the fuse.
Jul 01 03:56:30 <ep1220> dy: It reads 0 on top
Jul 01 03:56:41 <dyoung> Yeah, but its still a 1/16W part.
Jul 01 03:56:43 <dyoung> so it'
Jul 01 03:56:50 <dyoung> ll blow up after 1/16 W or so
Jul 01 03:57:03 <dyoung> maybe 1/8W, dunno
Jul 01 03:57:27 <ep1220> Well at Ohm there is more or less no voltage drop.
Jul 01 03:57:36 <ep1220> so no power dissipated
Jul 01 03:59:27 <ep1220> At F1 there could be a fuse installed, but it is shorted by FB11
Jul 01 03:59:46 <dyoung> Unless FB1 really is a fuse.
Jul 01 04:00:22 <ep1220> I doubt. It looks like a 0 Ohm resistor (there are a few more of this type on the board)
Jul 01 04:01:11 <dyoung> but they are also differnt size and are notated Rxxx
Jul 01 04:01:22 <ep1220> True.
Jul 01 04:01:24 <dyoung> or Cxxx
Jul 01 04:01:56 <ep1220> then: maybe they planned a fuse and installed a resistor ?
Jul 01 04:02:07 <NAiL> Rxxx == resistor, Cxxx == Condensator (Or whatever it's in englsh)?
Jul 01 04:02:14 <NAiL> *english*
Jul 01 04:02:19 <dyoung> I'm still working on how the other one gets power.
Jul 01 04:02:19 <ep1220> or FB means Fuse-Bridge
Jul 01 04:02:22 <ep1220> capacitor
Jul 01 04:02:27 <NAiL> ah, yes
Jul 01 04:02:44 <NAiL> <-- heating up soldering iron
Jul 01 04:05:07 <NAiL> Don't think I really need one. Summer has arrived. I can just put the slug on the asphalt for a few secs, and pick off any components I want ;)
Jul 01 04:23:08 <dyoung> A totally unloaded SlowSlug shows 41deg max.
Jul 01 04:23:31 <ep1220> CPU or Q9 ?
Jul 01 04:23:40 <dyoung> the CPU
Jul 01 04:23:57 <dyoung> I cant load this one either.
Jul 01 04:24:18 <ep1220> ???
Jul 01 04:24:21 <dyoung> its broke
Jul 01 04:24:25 <dyoung> bad ram
Jul 01 04:27:36 <dyoung> looks like the other USB port is hard wired to the power plane.
Jul 01 04:28:02 <ep1220> At mine the PowerPIn is just open.
Jul 01 04:28:14 <dyoung> I'm looking at the bare board pic.
Jul 01 04:28:22 <ep1220> If I'd install a = Ohm at FB12 it would have power
Jul 01 04:28:29 <ep1220> s/=/0/
Jul 01 04:28:44 <dyoung> well, on the top of the board, its bridged to the power.
Jul 01 04:29:13 <ep1220> I do not see any USB pins on the top of the board
Jul 01 04:29:26 <ep1220> The USB connectro case is gounded, yes
Jul 01 04:30:01 <ep1220> Look at the bottom pic - there You see the 4 pins easily
Jul 01 04:30:51 <ep1220> The Linksys User guide says Flash-Disc will not be recognized on  the Disc1 port
Jul 01 04:31:05 <ep1220> No wonder, if there is no power 
Jul 01 04:31:23 <dyoung> I use my flash on port 1
Jul 01 04:31:36 <dyoung> Re-look at the top picture though
Jul 01 04:31:50 <dyoung> the power pin really is part of the plane.
Jul 01 04:32:26 <ep1220> we are talking about J3 and J4 ?
Jul 01 04:32:43 <dyoung> Yes, the J3 in particular right?
Jul 01 04:33:44 <ep1220> there I see 2 solder points, one left one right
Jul 01 04:34:08 <ep1220> Both are part of the connector shield.
Jul 01 04:34:31 <dyoung> There are the 2 large holes which are part of the housing, then the 4 which are to the usb pins
Jul 01 04:34:56 <dyoung> the middle 2 data ones are in the shape of a 8.
Jul 01 04:35:07 <dyoung> one of the end ones is alone.
Jul 01 04:35:14 <dyoung> the other one is power
Jul 01 04:35:39 <ep1220> I am looking at NSLU-2-board-front.jpg
Jul 01 04:36:37 <ep1220> http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/uploads/NSLU2-board-front.jpg
Jul 01 04:36:39 <dyoung> Ippm on http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/uploads/NSLU2-board-front-bare.jpg
Jul 01 04:37:10 <ep1220> OK, an a bare board one can see the pins ;-)
Jul 01 04:37:45 <ep1220> The power pin is the right of the 4 in a row
Jul 01 04:38:10 <ep1220> I see it not connected
Jul 01 04:38:23 <ep1220> The left one goes to the Ground plane
Jul 01 04:38:46 <dyoung> Oh, youre right.
Jul 01 04:39:04 <dyoung> I had it reversed in memory!
Jul 01 04:39:22 <dyoung> because I was looking at theh board inverted.
Jul 01 04:39:46 <dyoung> Well, thats an interesting point.
Jul 01 04:39:49 <ep1220> My slug has a FLASH (USB-stick) symbol besides the Disk2 label on the case. Yours 2
Jul 01 04:39:57 <ep1220> Yours too ?
Jul 01 04:40:04 <dyoung> Why does my Flash stick work in port 1
Jul 01 04:40:09 <ep1220> I do have a recent EU version of the slug
Jul 01 04:40:26 <NAiL> ep1220: mine has too
Jul 01 04:40:37 <ep1220> Maybe there are different versions ?
Jul 01 04:40:39 <dyoung> It must be connected on the center plane
Jul 01 04:41:01 <dyoung> it has to be
Jul 01 04:41:02 <ep1220> On my slug power is fed thru FB11 and FB12 - or no power if these are uninstalled
Jul 01 04:41:22 <ep1220> 5V comes from the PSU connector.
Jul 01 04:41:34 <ep1220> the power plane is at 3.3V.
Jul 01 04:41:48 <dyoung> its worse than that, because FB12 is for port 2.
Jul 01 04:42:09 <ep1220> NAiL: then most likely You have no power on USB Port 1
Jul 01 04:42:30 <ep1220> dyoung: port 2 is the one closer to the Network connector
Jul 01 04:42:45 <dyoung> Yes, and on my slug, I have no FB12 intalled.
Jul 01 04:42:47 <NAiL> ep1220: yeah, it doesn't have FB12, so I guess not
Jul 01 04:42:56 <NAiL> eh
Jul 01 04:43:46 <ep1220> dyoung: can you check if You have power on the associated USB pin ?
Jul 01 04:44:30 <ep1220> NAiL: I think You can install a solder bridge over FB12.
Jul 01 04:44:55 <ep1220> But it might be possible the PSU gets overloaded if You connect 2 devices drawing power
Jul 01 04:45:19 <dyoung> B oth of my USB ports have 5V
Jul 01 04:45:42 <NAiL> ep1220: Yeah, but if I get a brick that can deliver >2.7A, I'll be ok, right?
Jul 01 04:46:04 <dyoung> There must be a private middle plane for the USB power
Jul 01 04:50:00 <ep1220> I now can measure 5V too (the probe msut be pressed  hard to the pin to get contact)
Jul 01 04:50:08 <dyoung> is that a via near F1?
Jul 01 04:51:15 <ep1220> i'd say so
Jul 01 04:51:43 <dyoung> thats probably where it comes from.
Jul 01 04:52:11 <ep1220> nod
Jul 01 04:52:37 <dyoung> I wondered about that for a while too
Jul 01 04:52:44 <dyoung> then it eventually exited my brain.
Jul 01 04:53:41 <ep1220> I measure 0Ohm between the 2 USB power pins.
Jul 01 05:01:58 <dyoung> Theres a via near FB12 too.  Must be a single trace between those two vias
Jul 01 05:02:09 <dyoung> its eveen a straight line.
Jul 01 05:02:35 <ep1220> But FB12 is open
Jul 01 05:03:04 <ep1220> There should be another line down to the connector pin (?)
Jul 01 05:06:09 <ep1220> there must be more +5V in the inner layer. The 5V disappears into an inner layer right at the PSU connector
Jul 01 05:08:28 <dyoung> Oh yes right, its on the wrong side of FB12 isnt it.
Jul 01 05:08:47 <dyoung> as you can probably guess its getting pretty late here.
Jul 01 05:13:56 <ep1220> NAil: I checked USB powered 2.5 HD enclosing
Jul 01 05:14:10 <NAiL> yeah?
Jul 01 05:14:11 <ep1220> The datasheet says: 500mA required from USB
Jul 01 05:14:29 <NAiL> which means, I won't get it to work unless I "fix" my slug...
Jul 01 05:14:54 <ep1220> Well, you need a larger power-supply
Jul 01 05:15:14 <ep1220> Esp. if Yu want to connect 2 drives
Jul 01 05:15:49 <ep1220> dyoung found that there is an inner-layer wire which already bridges FB12
Jul 01 05:15:55 <ep1220> so no soldering required
Jul 01 05:16:09 <NAiL> cool
Jul 01 05:17:42 <ep1220> PSU >2.7 will do. if You take a 3A model: you have same power as Linksys PSU + 2x500mA for the drives
Jul 01 05:18:19 <NAiL> yeah
Jul 01 05:28:54 <dyoung-zzzz> ep1220, Thanks for all the help!
Jul 01 05:29:38 <ep1220> NP
Jul 01 06:24:08 <NAiL> This is gonna be fun
Jul 01 06:24:21 <NAiL> Let's see if I can plug my iPod in without anything blowing up
Jul 01 06:25:01 <NAiL> Ok, it started charging. 
Jul 01 06:26:04 <NAiL> The iPod probably pulls 500mAh, since it's basically a USB/FW disk. And it charges the battery while connecte.
Jul 01 06:41:00 <ep1220> NAiL: Can the iPod be operated while connected to USB but no battery installed ?
Jul 01 06:41:59 <NAiL> Can't remove the battery at all
Jul 01 06:42:10 <NAiL> Unless I crack open the case with special tools
Jul 01 06:42:24 <ep1220> not worth it.
Jul 01 06:42:37 <ep1220> Do you know the mAh rating of the battery ?
Jul 01 06:44:20 <NAiL> 950mAh, I think
Jul 01 06:44:42 <ep1220> And how long can it play on a loaded battery ?
Jul 01 06:44:42 <NAiL> uh.. might be 720
Jul 01 06:44:54 <NAiL> It can play for 12 hours or so
Jul 01 06:45:16 <NAiL> But not if the backlight is lit, or if it has to access the disk a lot. It spins down the disk very quickly
Jul 01 06:45:44 <ep1220> 950mAh/12h = 80mA
Jul 01 06:47:55 <ep1220> check: http://www.eurobatteries.com/sitepages/stereo.asp
Jul 01 06:48:06 <NAiL> Can't figure out where to read the mAh it pulls
Jul 01 06:48:17 <NAiL> There's some file in /sys or /proc
Jul 01 06:49:20 <NAiL> mhm
Jul 01 06:49:26 <NAiL> only thing it says is C:* #Ifs= 1 Cfg#= 1 Atr=c0 MxPwr=500mA
Jul 01 06:49:53 <NAiL> oh well.. gotta go
Jul 01 08:02:34 <Tiersten_> ep1220: You can use a 3G iPod without a battery.  Don't know about the others
Jul 01 08:03:55 <ep1220> Tiersten_: this was all about estimating the current the iPod draws from USB
Jul 01 08:04:04 <ep1220> But NAiL had to go
Jul 01 08:04:23 <Tiersten_> yeah I know.  Just saying that you can disconnect the internal battery
Jul 01 08:04:45 <ep1220> thx
Jul 01 10:27:53 <NAiL> Tiersten: How can you disconnect the int battery?
Jul 01 10:28:03 <NAiL> You'd have to open the case then, wouldn't you?
Jul 01 10:28:35 <Tiersten> Yes
Jul 01 10:28:53 <Tiersten> it's reasonably easy once you know how
Jul 01 10:30:20 <NAiL> Hmm... Can't say I've tried
Jul 01 10:30:45 <Tiersten> There was a bad sector or something on the HD which prevented the iPod OS from loading
Jul 01 10:31:17 <Tiersten> It still worked fine as a firewire/USB disk however so I wiped it clean so it'd default to disk mode and removed the battery because you need the OS to turn it "off"
Jul 01 10:31:25 <Tiersten> Unplugging the firewire or USB would power it down
Jul 01 10:32:46 <NAiL> cool
Jul 01 10:33:06 <Tiersten> It was a very expensive and low duty firewire/USB HD :)
Jul 01 10:33:08 <NAiL> Well, both my iPods are non-faulty, so I don't think I'll do just that yet ;-)
Jul 01 10:33:11 <Tiersten> heh
Jul 01 10:33:21 <NAiL> I got myself another power brick
Jul 01 10:33:26 <Tiersten> For the NSLU2?
Jul 01 10:33:29 <NAiL> 5V 4A
Jul 01 10:33:32 <NAiL> yeah
Jul 01 10:46:00 <NAiL> 2 more amps to play with :D
Jul 01 10:46:28 <Tiersten> The traces are big enough?
Jul 01 10:46:51 <NAiL> Well, I guess we'll find out
Jul 01 10:47:09 <NAiL> Technically, they should be ;)
Jul 01 13:17:53 <NAiL> Anyone know what "generic" power bricks eat of power? I've heard that an effective brick uses "only" 20%, which in my head equates to the slug not using ~1.7A, but ~1.30A. That leaves enough power to run an USB-powered drive...
Jul 01 13:18:15 <NAiL> I sucks at math though ;-)
Jul 01 13:18:20 <Tiersten> Measure it
Jul 01 13:18:26 <NAiL> How? 
Jul 01 13:18:39 <NAiL> All I've got is my multimeter. V, Ohm and buzzer.
Jul 01 13:18:56 <Tiersten> what?  it doesn't do amps?
Jul 01 13:19:01 <NAiL> nope
Jul 01 13:19:17 <NAiL> It's really small though :D
Jul 01 13:19:22 <NAiL> And I got it for free.
Jul 01 13:19:26 <Tiersten> Go get a better one :)
Jul 01 13:19:44 <NAiL> bah :P
Jul 01 13:20:07 <Tiersten> Your 4A one is plenty though
Jul 01 13:20:12 <NAiL> But considering the heat output of the slug brick, I'm sure it uses a couple of watts
Jul 01 13:21:20 <Tiersten> Probably
Jul 01 13:21:21 <NAiL> Yeah, haven't had any problems running stuff off the iPod so far atleast. Only problem there is that the iPod spins down the disk after 5 seconds or so, which is a tad annoying :P
Jul 01 13:21:38 <Tiersten> In disk mode?
Jul 01 13:21:43 <NAiL> yeah
Jul 01 13:22:03 <NAiL> I think so? 
Jul 01 13:22:18 <Tiersten> Is there a flashing disk on the ipod screen?
Jul 01 13:22:25 <NAiL> no, it isn't.
Jul 01 13:22:29 <NAiL> lemme boot it
Jul 01 13:22:38 <Tiersten> actually, it has to be in disk mode
Jul 01 13:23:23 <NAiL> well.. Dunno if it there's a difference between booting to disk mode or entering disk mode from the running firmware?
Jul 01 13:23:31 <Tiersten> don't think there is
Jul 01 13:23:34 <Tiersten> nothing significant anyway
Jul 01 13:24:05 <Tiersten> does it charge via USB?
Jul 01 13:24:15 <Tiersten> I've only used mine via firewire
Jul 01 13:25:31 <NAiL> yeah, 4th gen ones do
Jul 01 13:25:37 <NAiL> My 3rd gen requires FW
Jul 01 13:25:42 <NAiL> (to charge)
Jul 01 13:25:44 <Tiersten> ah k
Jul 01 13:25:48 <Tiersten> Mine is a 3G
Jul 01 13:27:09 <NAiL> Seems to spin a lot longer when in disk mode
Jul 01 13:28:56 <NAiL> Several minutes, actually
Jul 01 13:28:58 <NAiL> neat
Jul 01 13:29:08 <Tiersten> Okay.  THere is a difference then :)
Jul 01 13:29:25 <NAiL> Very nice to know :D
Jul 01 13:29:56 <NAiL> I won't be using the iPod for long, just until I get an enclosure that I can use
Jul 01 13:30:21 <Tiersten> It's probably not good for the HD in the ipod anyway
Jul 01 13:30:24 <Tiersten> for long term usage
Jul 01 13:30:40 <Tiersten> since the ipod was never designed to have the HD spinning constantly
Jul 01 13:30:45 <NAiL> nope
Jul 01 13:30:53 <NAiL> Apple recommended I didn't
Jul 01 14:13:54 <ByronT> morning
Jul 01 14:52:51 <dyoung-zzzz> For S/G, I've  had a de-underclocked nslu2 in a totally enclosed space for the past 2 hours.
Jul 01 14:53:25 <dyoung-zzzz> It gets up to 57degC at on the CPU.
Jul 01 14:54:13 <dyoung-zzzz> airing out the container bring it down to 55 right away, fanning for 20 seconds, down to 53.
Jul 01 15:02:44 <rwhitby> cool.  (literally :-)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jul 01 23:59:57 2005