**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 24 02:59:56 2005
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 24 03:13:02 2005
Aug 24 03:18:09 <JoeLlama> sleepy now night folks :)
Aug 24 03:18:59 <JoeLlama> eh...  I'll hang out why not :)
Aug 24 03:19:04 <JoeLlama> afk
Aug 24 12:06:59 <[g2]> ep1220, ping !
Aug 24 12:41:55 <ep1220> [g2]: pong
Aug 24 12:42:07 <[g2]> HEY! long time no see :)
Aug 24 12:42:16 <ep1220> yes
Aug 24 12:42:26 <[g2]> I was on holiday for a couple weeks
Aug 24 12:42:38 <[g2]> now.... back to the grind :)
Aug 24 12:42:51 <ep1220> Hope You had some nice days
Aug 24 12:42:58 <[g2]> thx
Aug 24 12:43:37 <ep1220> Started selling Your X-Scale devices ?
Aug 24 12:46:42 <[g2]> not yet...
Aug 24 12:46:52 <[g2]> the prototypes are running a couple weeks late :(
Aug 24 12:47:19 <[g2]> all is moving along well, it's just hard when you are ready :)
Aug 24 12:47:27 <[g2]> hard to wait that is
Aug 24 12:47:44 <ep1220> I know this feeling :-)
Aug 24 12:47:54 <[g2]> are you waiting for hw ?
Aug 24 12:48:14 <ep1220> Not at the moment
Aug 24 12:48:42 <[g2]> I ping'ed you about building some hw :)
Aug 24 12:49:08 <ep1220> please explain
Aug 24 12:49:39 <[g2]> my product name the "Loft" is underway and moving along
Aug 24 12:49:52 <[g2]> I'm interested in a second/third little product
Aug 24 12:50:02 <[g2]> these are the following:
Aug 24 12:50:34 <[g2]> 1) A tiny usb device that connects to the serial and JTAG of the NSLU2
Aug 24 12:50:52 <[g2]> 2) a miniPCI to PCI breakout board/box
Aug 24 12:51:05 <[g2]> I think you are well qualified for #1 :)
Aug 24 12:51:53 <ep1220> sounds interesting
Aug 24 12:52:11 <ep1220> You are thinking of an FTDI based design ?
Aug 24 12:53:22 <[g2]> possibly....
Aug 24 12:53:31 <[g2]> I think there's a chip at spark fun too
Aug 24 12:53:52 <[g2]> I don't know how big the FTDI chip is
Aug 24 12:54:13 <[g2]> I'd like to have a tiny chip/board that fits inside the NSLU2 case
Aug 24 12:54:40 <ep1220> the chip is approx. 15x15mm (incl. pins)
Aug 24 12:54:50 <[g2]> and ideally just have a miniUSB connector added to the back which support serial via USB and optionally JTAG
Aug 24 12:54:59 <[g2]> does that make sense ?
Aug 24 12:55:18 <ep1220> yes.
Aug 24 12:55:46 <[g2]> then this would slot in the "product line" between virgin-nslu2, serail-JTAG mod, Loft
Aug 24 12:55:58 <[g2]> serial spelled properly of course :)
Aug 24 12:57:17 <ep1220> You want to sell JTAG as add-on option?
Aug 24 12:57:35 <ka6sox-office> just leave the holes
Aug 24 12:57:38 <[g2]> serial and JTAG
Aug 24 12:57:41 <ka6sox-office> most people wont' do it.
Aug 24 12:57:43 <ka6sox-office> but some will.
Aug 24 12:57:59 <[g2]> it's six wires
Aug 24 12:58:06 <[g2]> maybe a resister
Aug 24 12:58:09 <[g2]> resistor
Aug 24 12:58:15 <ka6sox-office> [g2] I would probably get 5 of them
Aug 24 12:58:33 <ka6sox-office> so the cost is minimal to put the holes there.
Aug 24 12:58:42 <ka6sox-office> let them put their *own* wires.
Aug 24 12:59:04 <[g2]> the cost of adding the serial is pretty cheap and the JTAG almost comes for free
Aug 24 12:59:12 <ka6sox-office> ya
Aug 24 12:59:26 <[g2]> it'd be easier to just have one change mod for the rework person
Aug 24 12:59:39 <[g2]> and there's a lot less pins
Aug 24 12:59:45 <[g2]> than the memory upgrade
Aug 24 13:01:05 <ka6sox-office> yes
Aug 24 13:01:12 <[g2]> I was thinking somthing along these lines with a little tape and the 10/11/12 pins connected
Aug 24 13:01:17 <[g2]> http://www.sparkfun.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cart=377029&cat=1&itemid=447&
Aug 24 13:02:13 <[g2]> if I just do serial then I think I've got another option
Aug 24 13:02:33 <[g2]> the digilentinc guys sell a level shifter for $12.95
Aug 24 13:02:59 <[g2]> I'd just bring out the 6 pins it uses
Aug 24 13:03:11 <[g2]> and ppl could just plug straight in
Aug 24 13:04:17 <[g2]> PMOD-RS232 on this page http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Peripheral.cfm
Aug 24 13:04:20 <ep1220> The link to sprakfun does not work - guess I can not access Your cart ;-)
Aug 24 13:04:31 <ep1220> s/sprakfun/sparkfun
Aug 24 13:05:16 <[g2]> http://www.sparkfun.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cat=1&itemid=447&
Aug 24 13:05:41 <[g2]> does that work better
Aug 24 13:06:00 <ep1220> yes
Aug 24 13:08:55 <ep1220> the Cp2103 has no JTAG engine. but for RS232 -> USB only it has several advantages over the FTDI
Aug 24 13:10:29 <ep1220> Something like the digilent shifter would be the cheapest.
Aug 24 13:11:28 <ep1220> You could use a 3,5mm stereo connector (like used on headphones) - or even a 2,5mm
Aug 24 13:16:18 <[g2]> or just print out 4/6 pins an allow for a direct plug in
Aug 24 13:17:31 <ep1220> U mean: bring out the NSLU2-signals directly ? without any level shifters?
Aug 24 13:18:17 <[g2]> yes.. because the digilent part has that onboard
Aug 24 13:18:43 <[g2]> just 4 pins are really required... I've got a couple of the devices here but haven't plugged them in yet
Aug 24 13:19:17 <ep1220> This is also a possibility (and the cheapest, I guess)
Aug 24 13:20:12 <[g2]> for straight serial yes
Aug 24 13:22:27 <ep1220> I guess, for JTAG  the same strategy is cheapest as well.
Aug 24 13:22:58 <ep1220> You would allow people to choose a JTAG adapter
Aug 24 13:23:25 <ep1220> they can decide on performance vs. money they want to spend.
Aug 24 13:24:29 <[g2]> hmmm....
Aug 24 13:24:30 <ep1220> If You make a FTDI board specific to fit inside the NSLU, the market for this device is restricted to NSLU2 users 
Aug 24 13:25:11 <[g2]> well... there are issues with Voltage levels
Aug 24 13:25:25 <[g2]> the serial isn't as bad
Aug 24 13:27:08 <ep1220> Why serial less bad than JTAG ? 
Aug 24 13:28:26 <ep1220> Both are at 3.3V and unprotected
Aug 24 13:29:46 <[g2]> because if you bork serial the chip isn't dead
Aug 24 13:30:48 <ep1220> IIRC the serial goes directly to the Xscale as well (?)
Aug 24 13:31:54 <[g2]> yes
Aug 24 13:32:14 <[g2]> both are bad
Aug 24 13:36:33 <ep1220>  [g2]: how many such modded NSLU2s you expect to sell ?
Aug 24 13:37:10 <[g2]> ep1220, ka6sox-office will buy 5 :)
Aug 24 13:37:52 <[g2]> I'd imagine 20-100+ ?
Aug 24 13:40:01 <ep1220> Might depend a lot on price.
Aug 24 13:41:01 <ep1220> Both the CP2103 and the FTDI need  professional equipment for soldering
Aug 24 13:41:14 <ka6sox-office> yes they do.
Aug 24 13:42:19 <[g2]> I'd think we'd do a run of tiny boards
Aug 24 13:42:31 <[g2]> it's be great practice
Aug 24 13:42:37 <[g2]> and it's a tiny part count
Aug 24 13:49:26 <dyoung-zzzz> Its a good excuse to make a reflow toaster.
Aug 24 13:49:45 <ep1220> [g2]: At 20-100 pieces, the cost for the boards will be clearly higher than what You see at sparkfun/digilent/ftdi
Aug 24 13:49:48 <[g2]> heh....
Aug 24 13:50:44 <[g2]> I think ppl would pay $50-$75 for the full rework package
Aug 24 13:50:55 <[g2]> which is basically the cost of a slug
Aug 24 13:51:19 <[g2]> serial is really useful and JTAG is *really* important for ppl wanting to tweak boot loaders
Aug 24 13:51:47 <[g2]> it's got to be really simple though
Aug 24 13:52:02 <ep1220> How much of this money goes to the reworkshop ?
Aug 24 13:52:28 <[g2]> I'd guess $15-20
Aug 24 13:52:40 <[g2]> I haven't asked for a quote
Aug 24 13:52:54 <[g2]> I was thinking doing batches of 10-20 at a shot
Aug 24 13:52:59 <ep1220> including the mods needed in the case ?
Aug 24 13:53:22 <[g2]> depends on the mods
Aug 24 13:53:46 <ep1220> at least one hole for the USB
Aug 24 13:54:24 <[g2]> I don't know how hard it is for that kind of mod in the plastic case... I'd defer to the mechanicals guy (which I don't have :)
Aug 24 13:55:02 <dyoung-zzzz> I have a cordless drill. :-)
Aug 24 13:55:32 <[g2]> shipping to that island costs too much... unless you're already doing the reflow :)
Aug 24 13:56:26 <dyoung-zzzz> for that small a run, its going to be cheapest to just make a drilling jig for the candidate part.
Aug 24 13:56:35 <dyoung-zzzz> Unless you want it punched to size.
Aug 24 13:56:49 <dyoung-zzzz> in which case the tooling might be a few bucks
Aug 24 13:57:23 <dyoung-zzzz> since its plastic though, it shouldnt be that bad; someone could make the punch/die out of a lathe bit.
Aug 24 14:03:12 <[g2]> that'd be cool
Aug 24 14:09:35 <ep1220> [g2]: I make partslists for CP2103 and FTDI solution (tomorrow if possible, else on friday)
Aug 24 14:10:12 <[g2]> ep1220 great
Aug 24 14:10:38 <[g2]> we can look a preliminary BOMs (Bill-of-materials) and see if it makes any sense
Aug 24 14:12:18 <dyoung-zzzz> Cool
Aug 24 14:12:28 <ep1220> yes, meet You tomorrow, bye.
Aug 24 14:12:30 <dyoung-zzzz> you guys rock.
Aug 24 14:12:35 <dyoung-zzzz> have a great night!
Aug 24 14:12:41 <ep1220> thx
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Aug 24 17:56:42 <[g2]> dyoung the pmod-rs232 works fine
Aug 24 17:56:52 <[g2]> dyoung-zzz the pmod-rs232 works fine
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