**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue May 09 09:59:56 2006 May 10 00:12:34 hey May 10 00:12:46 anyone knows a cheap pci analyzer May 10 00:12:47 ? May 10 00:13:07 nope May 10 00:13:14 they are all expensive May 10 00:13:16 or slow May 10 00:14:00 ka6sox-office: I need to reverse engeneer a driver from a winmodem card May 10 00:14:07 what would be the easyest way to do it ? May 10 00:47:42 kay2: eh gad May 10 00:47:52 kay2: why waste your time on that? May 10 00:48:22 ~lart kay2 May 10 00:48:23 * purl chops kay2 in half with a free Solaris 7 CD May 10 00:48:39 kay2: please spend your skills and time on something more valuable May 10 00:49:09 kay2: just expressing my opinion, feel free to disregard May 10 00:49:28 prpplague: for asterisk May 10 00:49:34 so it would also work with those card May 10 00:49:38 hmm May 10 00:50:03 although admirable, doesn't that promote the usage of those? May 10 00:50:21 kay2: why not concentrate on usb modems or such May 10 00:50:23 ?? May 10 00:50:35 * prpplague plays devil's advocate May 10 00:52:07 thought the idea for the "softmodem" winmodem thing was they could patent the software principle used as the hardware was basicaly opne in the chip data sheets May 10 00:53:20 AchiestDragon: what you mean ? May 10 00:53:43 kay2: keep the algo in the software, and not on the hardware datasheet May 10 00:53:47 and tend to agree theres better things like proper usb modems to work on rather than technolagy that was purpously designed to only provide windows compatability May 10 00:54:35 AchiestDragon: evening May 10 00:54:38 AchiestDragon: the thing is that those Conexant modem are the most popular because of their price May 10 00:54:49 (8eur each) May 10 00:54:52 the hardware algorithom for it , its theory is public knolage , but there is a good chance that the software version of it has a patent May 10 00:54:55 kay2: agreed, they are plentiful here May 10 00:54:56 and you can find them everywhere May 10 00:55:05 maybe May 10 00:55:16 kay2: but so is prostitution May 10 00:55:34 kay2: not sure i want to find easier ways for them to ply their trade May 10 00:55:43 AchiestDragon: you're talking about winmodem or the conexant one May 10 00:55:43 ? May 10 00:55:56 the winmodem May 10 00:56:15 AchiestDragon: so basically the Chip is just a cpu, and the driver upload its microcode into it ? May 10 00:56:30 no May 10 00:56:50 AchiestDragon: so what is it ? like a sound card and the PC does the job ? May 10 00:57:00 like some of the tone decoder is actualy in software May 10 00:57:01 kay2: no, basically the cpu is just an A2D May 10 00:57:03 ye May 10 00:57:12 kay2: the cpu does the analysis of the info May 10 00:57:32 kay2: sorry, more of a codec, May 10 00:58:00 prpplague: what kind of analysis May 10 00:58:19 kay2: picture it this way May 10 00:58:32 it actualy needs a fair bit of cpu time , and think you may have problems if not a rt kernel May 10 00:58:48 kay2: a man who does not know japanese is taking on the phone to someone who does speak japanesse May 10 00:59:09 kay2: he repeats what is said to someone who does speak japanese May 10 00:59:25 kay2: the person on the phone has no idea what is being said May 10 00:59:32 kay2: just relaying the sounds May 10 01:00:02 kay2: its the person who speaks japansee who is dealing with the actual language May 10 01:00:04 prpplague: so like I said, it's just like a sound card, it bufferes the sound and send it to the PC May 10 01:00:16 and the proc does the fast fourrier transform and deduce the values and stuff May 10 01:00:25 kay2: a high specialized sound card, but yes May 10 01:00:43 in a full hardware modem it would convert serial data to a set of multiple simultanius tones , the other ends decodes them back in to data May 10 01:00:50 prpplague: so it should not be that hard for me to use it as a Voice modem May 10 01:01:14 kay2: well you have to remember there are two major things that are working against you May 10 01:01:25 the win modem just gets data on what tones are there and has to sort out what that means and convert it back into data May 10 01:01:37 kay2: 1st the manufacturers have gone out of their way to keep you from doing anything without them May 10 01:01:59 prpplague: for what reason ? May 10 01:02:02 kay2: 2nd they are cheap which means they have cut corners at every chance putting more burden on you May 10 01:02:09 kay2: money May 10 01:02:19 and 2 for cost thay remove as mutch hardware that thay can get away with and do it in software May 10 01:02:30 prpplague: why the manifacturer wouldnt want his cheap to work under linux May 10 01:02:34 AchiestDragon: exactly May 10 01:02:46 kay2: uh "hi? May 10 01:03:02 prpplague? May 10 01:03:08 kay2: uh "hi! i'm linux can you work with me? ok give me some money and i will!" May 10 01:03:11 kay2: sorry type May 10 01:03:14 kay2: sorry typo May 10 01:03:33 kay2 , extra cost of linux drivers , and linux is not rt normaly so it will miss bits that need a set timing structure for the software May 10 01:03:33 kay2: business is business is business May 10 01:04:03 AchiestDragon: rt u mean real time ? May 10 01:04:16 and as there selling for windos then compatablilaty or function with oter os is not a problem May 10 01:04:22 rt = real time yes May 10 01:04:51 AchiestDragon: it's not a plus for them if I write a driver letting them sell their chips ? May 10 01:05:05 no May 10 01:05:08 why not May 10 01:05:09 * prpplague longs for the good ol days of jumpers on modems to configure irq and address May 10 01:05:12 more people would use it May 10 01:05:24 because theres probalbay problems in patents May 10 01:05:37 patent ? like what? May 10 01:05:51 kay2: going OSS is not as easy as you would think May 10 01:06:15 kay2: like an algo for compression May 10 01:06:24 kay2: corps are patent happy these days May 10 01:06:29 kay2: in france patents would not be a problem atm May 10 01:06:53 oh u mean that the law that doesnt let you reverse engineer? May 10 01:07:06 saying it's in intelectual property ? May 10 01:07:12 kay2: no, even if you did reverse engineer, the method and concept is patented May 10 01:07:26 but the algorithom thay need to use to get the decode timing right for it is only real time opperating system compatable May 10 01:07:40 AchiestDragon: and windows is RT ? May 10 01:08:01 kay2: for instance, the method of obtaining a barcode scan on a handheld device by the means of a trigger is patentend by symbol technologies May 10 01:08:05 it is like doing a ethernet serial to parallel driver by bit banging the paralell port May 10 01:08:20 kay2: any company that uses a trigger to do barcoding has to pay to symbol May 10 01:08:42 ok May 10 01:08:57 kay2: life is not as simple as just doing coding May 10 01:09:06 so that's the reason they don't want someone to use write a driver for it ? May 10 01:09:17 because if they open the source then anyone could use the technology ? May 10 01:09:17 kay2: more than likely May 10 01:09:31 kay2: and they would be open to law suits May 10 01:09:49 kay2: i.e. for the same reason there are no OSS sd/mmc drivers currently May 10 01:10:11 prpplague: why ? May 10 01:10:13 the algorithom that a modem uses to do that is patented , but normal its in the chip , but doing it in software is also pattented ,and that patent restricts it to windows only May 10 01:10:17 the sd/mmc protocol ? May 10 01:10:36 the mmc os ok but the sd is not in linux May 10 01:10:38 kay2: because the specification has been under patent and trademark protection May 10 01:11:10 prpplague: so If i want to write an application under linux that uses the SD protocol, i have to pay SD? May 10 01:11:11 AchiestDragon: techinically its not wasn't legal until around the first of april May 10 01:11:20 because the sd licence does not aloow for a viewable source code but you can do a binary distribution if you pay them for licenice May 10 01:11:32 kay2: you could do it, but if you sold it, they would have to get their cut May 10 01:11:47 prpplague: and if I open source it May 10 01:11:56 kay2: major law suit May 10 01:12:08 prpplague: even if I'm in france ? May 10 01:12:12 yea May 10 01:12:21 kay2: they have gone after people for less May 10 01:12:30 prpplague: ok so for example, if I take a cisco IP phone May 10 01:12:32 is still wondering that has theres no software patent laws in eu that there may endup beeing a split in the distros May 10 01:12:44 which is not SIP, and I rever engineer it to make it work with asterisk May 10 01:12:50 I can get sued May 10 01:12:55 http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT6640645071.html May 10 01:13:00 kay2: good read May 10 01:13:02 because it was their own protocol and not meant for being used with asterisk May 10 01:13:03 ? May 10 01:13:36 kay2: if you used a protocol to comminicate with the hardware that is covered under patent, yes you could May 10 01:14:06 kay2: software dev is a mine field in the last few years May 10 01:14:19 prpplague: even for private use ? May 10 01:14:24 well its a bit vague over patents here ,, like this machine in xine will play , dvds most of windows codecs , and the like May 10 01:14:24 prpplague: or if I sell it May 10 01:14:37 kay2: i regularly have to go to court over gpl violations, and defend my reverse enginerering May 10 01:15:00 kay2: most corps tend to over look private use May 10 01:15:21 prpplague: so if tomorrow, I write a driver for SD May 10 01:15:25 and I post it anonymously May 10 01:15:35 they're done... May 10 01:15:36 not over look it but legaly canot do anything about private use May 10 01:15:44 kay2: you are ok, since on april 1st the SD associate released the spec May 10 01:15:58 kay2: but prior to that May 10 01:15:59 prpplague: on the conexant modem... May 10 01:16:04 kay2: you would have been in trouble May 10 01:16:11 kay2: potential problems May 10 01:16:26 prpplague: so you mean that linux is not gonna make new drivers because of that May 10 01:16:26 take someting like moding xboxes , you canot do it for someone here , but thay canot stop you doing it to your own May 10 01:16:27 kay2: need to do your research and talk to legal cousel May 10 01:17:18 kay2: yes, there are many restrictions, but as linux and OSS gain momentum, more groups understand the need for opening specifications May 10 01:17:38 kay2: one of the primary reasons the sd specs were opened was due to presssure from fsf May 10 01:17:39 they will sue you for telling someone how to do it also but not for beeing the one beeing told how to May 10 01:18:01 good over sd May 10 01:18:30 * prpplague is soon to watch doctor who May 10 01:18:30 think they finaly realise the pressure and can see thay need it for the future May 10 01:18:38 fsf: free software fondation May 10 01:18:39 whay episode May 10 01:18:50 what episode May 10 01:18:53 kay2: you have to understand, the change in culture and business practices does not come quickly May 10 01:19:00 kay2: OSS is a new way of thinking May 10 01:19:05 OSS ? May 10 01:19:14 kay2: Open Source Software May 10 01:19:17 open source software May 10 01:19:27 Open Source Software May 10 01:19:32 kay2: you have to think about it in the terms of the changes after the dark ages May 10 01:19:54 kay2: when the scientific method of sharing knowledge became accepted practice May 10 01:20:06 kay2: between the old days of monestiers May 10 01:20:07 bit like getting burnt at the stake for saying the earth was round May 10 01:20:12 prpplague: but tomorrow, if there was a new graphic card very famous for gaming and patented, no one could use it under linux May 10 01:20:16 kay2: that had books chained to shleves May 10 01:20:29 kay2: possible yes May 10 01:20:55 kay2: the only thing keeping corps from doing that is the power of money May 10 01:21:00 prpplague: what episode of dr who ? May 10 01:21:04 AchiestDragon: hehe May 10 01:21:11 AchiestDragon: girl in the fireplace May 10 01:21:23 AchiestDragon: just burned it to vcd May 10 01:21:24 kool its good that one May 10 01:21:32 prpplague: and what if the patent is only on the V92 protocol and not on the Voice May 10 01:21:32 AchiestDragon: cool you in the UK? May 10 01:21:36 yes May 10 01:21:44 seen it on sat May 10 01:21:49 and sunday May 10 01:21:53 AchiestDragon: ahh, i have to get it from p2p May 10 01:22:00 AchiestDragon: bastard, hehe May 10 01:22:09 and from p2p also May 10 01:22:12 :) May 10 01:22:14 hehe May 10 01:22:45 prpplague: well look at Samba May 10 01:22:59 prpplague: they reverse the NTFS from MS that was pattented to use with MS May 10 01:23:05 prpplague: they reverse the NTFS from MS that was pattented to use with unix May 10 01:23:28 according to you, they're not able to do that anymore May 10 01:23:35 kay2: yes and terpstra has paid the price on many occasions May 10 01:23:45 kay2: there are methods of doing this May 10 01:23:47 terpstra ? May 10 01:23:52 kay2: hehe May 10 01:23:55 kay2: google it May 10 01:24:13 kay2: hehe, he drinks to much and my CC has the charges to prove it May 10 01:24:18 hehe May 10 01:24:22 kay2: anyway May 10 01:24:36 kay2: let me ask you something May 10 01:24:37 prpplague: can't find a correct url from google May 10 01:24:47 kay2: how old are yuu? May 10 01:24:51 24 May 10 01:25:16 btw http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/09/1232216 < this May 10 01:25:31 http://www.google.com/linux?hl=en&lr=&q=terpstra&btnG=Search May 10 01:25:55 kay2: ok. do you think you are the first person to ask these questions? May 10 01:26:08 ok so what he did was wrong , and i may not aggree with it but what is happening over the extradition is realy bad May 10 01:26:22 he got 2 years here for it btw May 10 01:26:36 kay2: no, people have been reverse engineering for years May 10 01:26:49 kay2: they are legal ways of reverse engineering May 10 01:26:50 AchiestDragon: what did he do ? May 10 01:27:25 hacked a few us dod and nasa computers that still had default admin passwords set May 10 01:27:31 ha May 10 01:27:53 but the default blank paswords for sysadmin May 10 01:27:56 ? May 10 01:28:03 welll May 10 01:28:13 kay2: hey, i'm totally worn out from a 5 day 2.6 port to a new arm board, i'll chat when i can with you any time May 10 01:28:30 AchiestDragon: later d00d, gotta go check my girl billy May 10 01:28:36 laters May 10 01:28:37 hehe May 10 01:28:41 :) May 10 01:28:59 the horse is cool May 10 01:29:23 so they want him to be sent to the US even if he never did anything there ? May 10 01:29:32 you need to find the dr who confidential video to find out how thay filmed that May 10 01:29:35 well May 10 01:29:59 the thing is he was charged here for it and did 2 years for it May 10 01:30:28 now the usa wants to try him again for it and give him 70 years May 10 01:31:04 AchiestDragon: bastard May 10 01:31:11 and they're gonna send him May 10 01:31:11 ? May 10 01:31:30 the thing is that the uk has been tring to get ira terrorists that are free in the use extradited over hear for years that have killed people here but the us wont send them May 10 01:31:59 lol May 10 01:32:07 so they say give them to us and we'll send him May 10 01:33:14 now the thing is that the riaa ( music copywrite thing in the us) are looking at this with view to try extridition of non us citicens from aborad to the us for trying them for p2p use May 10 01:33:36 yeah May 10 01:33:40 so if the UK does it May 10 01:33:45 it oppens the door for them May 10 01:33:55 because this extridition is going to set a precident in the us courts May 10 01:34:00 yes May 10 01:34:15 and their law are based on precidents May 10 01:34:52 and what is not right is if they extrodit him he will be arrested on arival for not having valid visa etc May 10 01:35:11 hahhah May 10 01:35:15 that sucks May 10 01:35:22 and they call that democracy May 10 01:35:26 so putting nim in a worse position of entering a countary without one May 10 01:35:29 yes May 10 01:35:50 there was a video on that ? May 10 01:36:32 so rather than prosicouting those that did not set paswords , there basicaly ensureing someone elce gets locked up for finding it May 10 01:37:00 btw he was doing it for 2 years before thay found out May 10 01:37:08 lol May 10 01:37:12 they're dumb May 10 01:37:19 seems so May 10 01:39:22 i saw the interview he gave on tv here , i dont think hes totaly right in the head , and some of the claims have truth but not quite the way he discribed them May 10 01:40:02 btw nasa do tuch up images to air brush out things , and i know that not from him May 10 01:41:10 thay have made the mistake of doing it to 2 images that where not form nasa sats that i know of May 10 01:41:15 :) May 10 01:42:39 but "ufp's " not ufo's May 10 01:44:30 sees if i can find the interview video for him May 10 01:45:20 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/4977134.stm May 10 01:45:46 thers a video ink on that page for the interview with him May 10 01:49:33 not shure if it works ouside the uk May 10 01:51:43 anyway , if he gets extradited the gov here will have a lot to answer for May 10 02:02:04 btw to be fair , nasa air brush out items that are caused by known and unknown phenomina , like the efect of cosmic partical disortion , as there like interferance , but 1 spot can take up a fair few pixels of an image May 10 02:02:58 but because of it there statemtn that thay dont tuch the image is a lie May 10 02:03:25 and paranoia rules aparantly because of it May 10 02:08:22 but you can see why http://www.whipy.demon.co.uk/UFONASASOHO.jpg May 10 02:13:06 whatever that is it came from the surface of the sun that is from the full image of it to the left side of the picture May 10 02:16:45 some form of solar plasma ejection , looks quite convincing for a ufo though May 10 02:19:38 ineretingly that image was not from nasa , that was from the esa ,but nasa also published it as is May 10 02:19:58 but the ufo lot got hold of it and it got lots of publicaty May 10 02:26:18 easy to explain if you know what caused it , and what your looking at May 10 02:30:13 davies was the best thing to happen to dr.who in ages May 10 02:30:24 :) May 10 02:30:32 damm go epi May 10 02:30:35 good May 10 02:41:35 wb May 10 02:42:12 boing May 10 02:48:43 yep **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed May 10 09:59:58 2006