**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 20 02:59:56 2008
Aug 20 05:22:49 <Ainulindale> rwhitby: problem was a bad setup.py
Aug 20 05:25:38 <rwhitby> ok, good :-)
Aug 20 05:26:05 <rwhitby> I take non-determinism of the auto-build system very seriously.
Aug 20 05:26:45 <rwhitby> (I believe that it's completely deterministic now)
Aug 20 05:59:38 <Ainulindale> rwhitby: and that's pretty good indeed :-)
Aug 20 05:59:52 <Ainulindale> rwhitby: But my alarmism what caused by my lack of knowledge unfortunately
Aug 20 05:59:56 <Ainulindale> s/what/was/
Aug 20 06:15:24 <roh> rwhitby well.. fetching from cvs isnt;)
Aug 20 06:17:25 <trupheenix> Ainulindale: don't u every sleep? which part of the world r u in?
Aug 20 06:17:55 <trupheenix> Ainulindale: :)
Aug 20 06:30:17 <Ainulindale> I sleep, I sleep
Aug 20 06:30:24 <Ainulindale> I live in France
Aug 20 06:53:36 <rwhitby> roh: the git fetcher isn't either
Aug 20 06:54:20 <roh> rwhitby that one works very well for me.. its just rasters cvs with 20 concurrent connections as limit which breaks it atm ;)
Aug 20 06:54:38 <lindi-> tmzt_mp900c_: i'd change the debian/control file but i'm not sure
Aug 20 06:54:47 <roh> but afaik e* is switching to svn atm, so that will be only a problem for some time
Aug 20 06:55:40 <tmzt_mp900c_> lindi-: it's still building in the chroot, I had to manually add a bunch of packages, and remove libgl1-mesa-dev from debian/control
Aug 20 06:55:54 <roh> raster just said svn is already up, so one only would need to fix the oe recipes
Aug 20 06:56:27 <methril> morning
Aug 20 07:02:27 * cjb posts http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/devel/2008-August/001336.html
Aug 20 07:09:09 <rwhitby> cjb: nice
Aug 20 07:42:12 <tmzt_mp900c_> lindi-: do you know how I can copy/commit the cow file if I am in --login
Aug 20 09:07:22 <aleix_> hi, i'm following http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SHR_Development
Aug 20 09:07:39 <aleix_> in "Set up your local.conf " it says I should add BBFILES += "$SHRSVN/trunk/packages/*.bb $MOKO/openembedded/packages/*/*.bb"
Aug 20 09:07:39 <aleix_>  
Aug 20 09:07:49 <aleix_> to conf/local.conf
Aug 20 09:07:59 <aleix_> in $MOKO/openembedded 
Aug 20 09:08:20 <aleix_> but this file does no exists, should it be $MOKO/build/conf/local.conf?
Aug 20 09:09:26 <rwhitby> that's where mokomakefile expects local.conf, yes.
Aug 20 09:10:08 <aleix_> then the wiki should be updated
Aug 20 09:10:37 <aleix_> i have also found that before running bitbake for shr, the setup-env should also be run
Aug 20 09:11:03 <rwhitby> wiki has now been updated
Aug 20 09:11:14 <rwhitby> yes, setup-env must be run before bitbake
Aug 20 09:11:50 <rwhitby> added that comment too
Aug 20 09:11:52 <aleix_> and  $SHRSVN/trunk/packages/*.bb  should be $SHRSVN/trunk/*.bb
Aug 20 09:12:01 <aleix_> ups
Aug 20 09:12:12 <aleix_> $SHRSVN/trunk/*/*.bb
Aug 20 09:12:42 <rwhitby> are you sure about that one?
Aug 20 09:13:08 <aleix_> let me see
Aug 20 09:13:17 <rwhitby> http://projects.openmoko.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/trunk/packages/?root=shr indicates that the line in the wiki is correct
Aug 20 09:13:22 <aleix_> mmm
Aug 20 09:13:23 <aleix_> no
Aug 20 09:13:25 <aleix_> sorry
Aug 20 09:13:48 <aleix_> but then   bitbake openmoko-dialer3
Aug 20 09:13:48 <aleix_> does not work
Aug 20 09:14:22 <aleix_> i mean, one should do     bitbake openmoko-dialer3_svn
Aug 20 09:14:37 <rwhitby> no
Aug 20 09:14:40 <aleix_> because the  openmoko-dialer3.bb is not in packages
Aug 20 09:15:21 <rwhitby> anything after '_' is the version
Aug 20 09:15:33 <aleix_> let me try again
Aug 20 09:18:14 <aleix_> another thing I have found is that using $MOKO in local.conf does not work, bitbake removes it from the environment
Aug 20 09:18:35 <aleix_> don't know why
Aug 20 09:19:15 <aleix_> $SHRSVN/trunk/packages/*.bb is OK, sorry for that
Aug 20 09:20:34 <aleix_> but withouth $SHRSVN, as for $MOKO, I needed to use the absolute path
Aug 20 09:21:16 <rwhitby> yep
Aug 20 09:21:25 <rwhitby> perhaps you can add that tip to the wiki
Aug 20 09:22:18 <aleix_> is there any way to tell bitbake not to remove them'
Aug 20 09:22:19 <aleix_> ?
Aug 20 09:24:34 <aleix_> and the last thing,  $MOKO/openembedded/packages/*/*.bb  should not be necessary as if I am not wrong it is already in BBFILES
Aug 20 09:32:03 <aleix_> rwhitby: tip about environment variables added
Aug 20 09:32:47 <daten> hey
Aug 20 09:33:14 <daten> can anyone tell me where i can get the latest kernelpatches for the openmoko kerneltree?
Aug 20 09:33:51 <daten> openmoko-patches against the vanilla-kernel-tree i mean
Aug 20 09:57:38 <rwhitby> daten: git.openmoko.org
Aug 20 09:57:59 <rwhitby> stable or andy branches
Aug 20 10:09:34 <aleix> rwhitby: could it make sense to update the MokoMafile for SHR so it also downloads SHR and uses the already created directory layout?
Aug 20 10:11:32 <rwhitby> aleix: I have discussed this with the SHR folks, and since SHR is meant to overlay on FSO rather than on code from git.openmoko.org, I'll probably add it to the FSO Makefile I've got running on shr.bearstech.com
Aug 20 10:14:16 <aleix> rwhitby: I see, well, in fact, all openmoko targets should be removed in favor of new shr ones, right?
Aug 20 10:14:30 <rwhitby> why?
Aug 20 10:14:59 <rwhitby> shr is not a product of openmoko
Aug 20 10:15:05 <aleix> aha
Aug 20 10:15:20 <aleix> yes
Aug 20 10:16:01 <aleix> so, the MokoMakefile (with updates) could also be used for and FSO SHR image (which I understood you were doing)
Aug 20 10:16:26 <rwhitby> I'll probably have a separate FSO/SHR makefile
Aug 20 10:16:37 <rwhitby> it's too messy to mix them all together
Aug 20 10:16:55 <aleix> exactly, this is what I meant, SHR does not need the openmoko targets in the makefile
Aug 20 10:17:01 <aleix> or it does?
Aug 20 10:19:54 <rwhitby> no, it doesn't
Aug 20 10:20:22 <rwhitby> since it's on overlay on FSO, which is built from OE directly, not from OM repositories
Aug 20 10:21:15 <aleix> ok (thanks for the help)
Aug 20 10:21:33 <daten> rwhitby: sry, i just see the kernel.git-dir via the webinterface and there is the whole patched kernel-tree
Aug 20 10:21:41 <daten> i'm searching just the patches
Aug 20 10:21:48 <rwhitby> daten: correct.  that's the git way.
Aug 20 10:22:09 <rwhitby> use git diff against the master branch to get patches
Aug 20 10:22:36 <daten> i'm not familiar with git - how to i define branches here?
Aug 20 10:22:38 <aleix> rwhitby: do you already have something done for the fso/shr makefile? may be i could help on that
Aug 20 10:23:02 <rwhitby> aleix: I have an fso makefile (which is really just a customisation of the nslu2-linux OE makefile
Aug 20 10:23:24 <rwhitby> have't done anything for shr yet - still waiting for them to adjust their repo layout to make it a true OE overlay
Aug 20 10:23:32 <rwhitby> Ainulindale is organising that
Aug 20 10:23:35 <aleix> mmm
Aug 20 10:23:58 <aleix> ok, now I understand what you were talking about overlays and that kernel-labs manual
Aug 20 10:24:21 <aleix> where layout is explained
Aug 20 10:24:35 <rwhitby> once it's a true overlay, then fso and shr can be easily built from the same makefile
Aug 20 10:27:04 <rwhitby> aleix: FSO makefile is at shr.bearstech.com, you need the Makefile and the common directory
Aug 20 10:27:20 * rwhitby has dinner
Aug 20 10:32:41 <aleix> ok
Aug 20 11:08:48 * rwhitby writes http://shr.bearstech.com/README
Aug 20 11:12:12 <Ainulindale> Funny rwhitby I thought about doing that yesterday
Aug 20 11:12:30 <Weiss> rwhitby: very clear, thanks
Aug 20 11:14:20 <kd8ikt> rwhitby: i thought lenny wasnt resleased yet
Aug 20 11:14:41 <kd8ikt> or is it the unstable branch
Aug 20 11:15:29 * rwhitby adds http://shr.bearstech.com/sources.list
Aug 20 11:16:43 <rwhitby> any other info required to precisely replicate this autobuilder?
Aug 20 11:18:31 <rwhitby> Weiss: if only buildhost had such a file, hey?
Aug 20 11:40:57 * rwhitby adds http://shr.bearstech.com/sources/ for GPL compliance
Aug 20 11:43:00 <dbmoodb> goes tango gps keep the speed / other info in the trip logs (if you log ) ?
Aug 20 11:43:43 <dbmoodb> rwhitby: its normally prett accurate i find btw -- just did a log
Aug 20 11:45:10 <rwhitby> dbmoodb: dunno
Aug 20 11:45:25 <dbmoodb> ooo are you talking about on fso -- i'm talking about 2007.2
Aug 20 11:45:29 <rwhitby> I think it just keeps position and timestamp.  that's all you need.
Aug 20 11:46:14 <dbmoodb> rwhitby: sure but i would love to have a monitor wifi + gps + bluetooth + accelerometer based app / program (perhaps only wifi + gps or .. gps + accelerometer).
Aug 20 11:46:39 <rwhitby> get coding then ;-)
Aug 20 11:48:31 <dbmoodb> rwhitby: got uni work to do -- going skiing on snow games... can't really do that rofl
Aug 20 11:49:03 <dbmoodb> mmm drat ... i need power on the bus going there.. this is going to suck
Aug 20 11:50:31 <aleix> Ainulindale: are you planning to work on the OE overlay for SHR during the next days? I'm taking a week for vacation and may be I can help
Aug 20 11:51:48 <aleix> I do not have any experience on this, and it could be a good starting point
Aug 20 12:02:34 * rwhitby announces the fso autobuilder and feeds on the lists
Aug 20 12:03:19 <rwhitby> mickeyl: http://shr.bearstech.com/README
Aug 20 12:12:24 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07specs * rc46e1135fd91 10/ (24 files in 4 dirs): 
Aug 20 12:12:24 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: * add missing 'Incoming' signal for org.freesmartphone.Phone.Call
Aug 20 12:12:24 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: * remove german Umlaute
Aug 20 12:12:24 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: * add warning in autogenerated docs, regenerate everything
Aug 20 12:12:50 <mickeyl> rwhitby: nice!
Aug 20 12:13:27 <rwhitby> mickeyl: can you think of any other info required to precisely replicate the autobuild results?
Aug 20 12:13:54 <rwhitby> (or any source of non-determinism that I might have missed?)
Aug 20 12:13:56 <mickeyl> No i think that should be it
Aug 20 12:14:12 <mickeyl> it's exactly what we do to generate our builds
Aug 20 12:15:10 <rwhitby> that's the way it should be :-)
Aug 20 12:15:36 <mickeyl> yeah
Aug 20 12:25:29 <Ainulindale> aleix: you could do that if you want to :-)
Aug 20 12:26:20 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07specs * ra9746a2e6d78 10/ (3 files in 2 dirs): regenerate docs again, fix clean rules
Aug 20 12:33:15 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07specs * rc0bb78038714 10/ (5 files in 3 dirs): add phone html and xml
Aug 20 12:34:17 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07specs * rf8234bf0835e 10/ (3 files in 3 dirs): fix typo in ophone/org.freesmartphone.Phone.Call.xml.in
Aug 20 12:37:10 <aleix> Ainulindale: great then, but i have to say it will take some days (and i do not have internet where I go, so don't think i'm gone :-) ), if that's ok for you, i will try to set it up
Aug 20 12:45:31 <mickeyl> hmm
Aug 20 12:45:34 <mickeyl> ~lart oeventsd
Aug 20 12:45:47 * mickeyl adds debug outpt
Aug 20 12:46:00 <alphaone> heh
Aug 20 12:46:33 <alphaone> hmm, do I try to add PDU encoding now?
Aug 20 12:46:50 <alphaone> GPS warmstart works okay here.
Aug 20 12:47:08 <alphaone> But it still has some issues when I'm on the move and reacquiring...
Aug 20 12:47:16 <alphaone> Not sure if that is normal, though
Aug 20 12:47:37 <mickeyl> alphaone: sure, go ahead with PDU. We have 10 days until the next release, that should give us time to iron out bugs
Aug 20 12:47:49 <mickeyl> (gps warmstart) i was excited to see the patch
Aug 20 12:47:58 <mickeyl> that brings us ahead of other daemons
Aug 20 12:48:09 <alphaone> yeah. Just tested it today during a bike ride
Aug 20 12:48:29 <alphaone> still needs some final touches, but...
Aug 20 12:48:48 <alphaone> mickeyl: (PDU) I knew you'd say that :-)
Aug 20 12:49:23 <alphaone> I'm currently trying to work up the necessary motivation to work on it
Aug 20 12:49:58 <mickeyl> :)
Aug 20 12:50:55 * mickeyl waves with a fat ogsmd 0.9 sign and hides it behind a smaller PDU encoding sign
Aug 20 12:51:38 <mickeyl> i'm fed up with gsm, i want to finish this damn subsystem :)
Aug 20 12:56:02 <alphaone> mickeyl: Heh, alright
Aug 20 12:59:11 <roh> hrhr
Aug 20 13:28:49 <alphaone> mickey|coffee: Just reread the GSM alphabet tables
Aug 20 13:29:21 <alphaone> You said that some USSD messages contain loads of CR? That's the character defined as padding in the spec
Aug 20 13:31:06 <mickey|coffee> aah
Aug 20 13:31:10 <mickey|coffee> now it makes sense
Aug 20 13:31:34 <mickey|coffee> that means the internal format between BTS and ME is PDU
Aug 20 13:31:48 <mickey|coffee> and text mode is just done on the ME converting it for the TA
Aug 20 13:31:56 <mickey|coffee> as i suspected, actually
Aug 20 13:31:57 <alphaone> yup
Aug 20 13:35:47 <rwhitby> mickey|coffee: http://downloads.openmoko.org/repository/Multiverse/orrery_1.1_arm_2008.8.ipk works on fso-testing
Aug 20 13:35:53 <rwhitby> (starchart app)
Aug 20 13:36:20 <rwhitby> even gets the correct location from GPS
Aug 20 13:37:08 <alphaone> Ah, read about that. Cool app
Aug 20 13:39:15 <rwhitby> just in time for the scout camp I'm leading this weekend :-)
Aug 20 13:39:15 <daten> rwhitby: can you give me a hint how to create a patch/diff between the vanilla-kernel-tree and the git-kernel-tree?
Aug 20 13:39:29 <rwhitby> daten: git diff master stable
Aug 20 13:39:56 <daten> thanks - will try
Aug 20 13:40:06 <rwhitby> (I think - I'd have to read the git diff man page just like you can :-)
Aug 20 13:41:12 <daten> yep - you're right
Aug 20 13:41:23 <daten> will not continue bothering you :)
Aug 20 13:43:05 <mickey|coffee> rwhitby: oooh, really? that's amazing! do you have a screeny?
Aug 20 13:43:17 <mickey|coffee> [or can you scap one]
Aug 20 13:44:24 <rwhitby> mickey|coffee: looks just like in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Orrery except without the titlebar and with grey rectangular buttons at the bottom
Aug 20 13:44:47 <rwhitby> (I mean with the FSO title bar instead of the ASU one)
Aug 20 13:45:57 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r3200685d16f3 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/ (gsm/channel.py modems/ti_calypso/channel.py): ogsmd: change channel representation in debug messages
Aug 20 13:45:57 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r3ef7db243cb2 10/framework/ (controller.py subsystems/oeventsd/ring_tone_action.py): 
Aug 20 13:45:57 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: * stylize accessor method (we don't use 'get' as prefix) for controller and return None if not found
Aug 20 13:45:59 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: * increase ringtone event robustness (if preferences object not found)
Aug 20 13:46:19 <mickey|coffee> beautiful!
Aug 20 13:46:28 <mickey|coffee> we should ship that by default
Aug 20 13:46:46 <rwhitby> mickey|coffee: the author is looking for autoconf help so he can write a bitbake recipe for it
Aug 20 13:47:09 <rwhitby> I suggested he write a request for someone to help him on the mailing list, but he didn't do so :-(
Aug 20 13:47:19 <rwhitby> it looks like something you could do in 5 minutes ;-)
Aug 20 13:47:27 * rwhitby is also an autoconf newbie
Aug 20 13:47:31 <mickey|coffee> make that 10, but yes
Aug 20 13:47:39 <mickey|coffee> write me a mail and cc' the author
Aug 20 13:47:44 <mickey|coffee> we'll handle the rest
Aug 20 13:47:58 <rwhitby> source is at https://projects.openmoko.org/frs/?group_id=35&release_id=205
Aug 20 13:48:05 <rwhitby> https://projects.openmoko.org/frs/download.php/315/orrery_1.1.tar.gz
Aug 20 13:48:58 <rwhitby> author is KenYoung - he was in #openmoko yesterday
Aug 20 13:49:12 <rwhitby> email is at https://projects.openmoko.org/users/dolson/
Aug 20 13:52:49 <rwhitby> mickey|coffee: email sent
Aug 20 13:53:12 <daten> rwhitby: sry ^^ - for kernel 2.6.22 there were seperate patches available - why this isn't the case anymore for newer versions?
Aug 20 13:53:36 <rwhitby> daten: cause they moved to git
Aug 20 13:53:54 <rwhitby> like most other kernel hackers
Aug 20 13:57:08 <mickey|coffee> rwhitby: oki, thanks
Aug 20 13:57:12 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r87f71dcf58d0 10/framework/subsystems/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
Aug 20 13:57:12 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: oeventsd|opreferencesd: add versions, notify on init
Aug 20 13:57:12 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: Please increment versions as per style guide
Aug 20 13:57:36 <mickey|coffee> daten: actually, the seperate patches are still available somewhere in andy's git tree. check mokopatches or ask him
Aug 20 13:57:54 <alphaone> mickey|coffee: That reminds me we need a new frameworkd.conf file in oe
Aug 20 13:58:35 <mickey|coffee> yes
Aug 20 13:58:38 <mickey|coffee> i know
Aug 20 13:58:42 <rwhitby> daten: perhaps http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=shortlog;h=mokopatches-2.6.26
Aug 20 13:58:43 <mickey|coffee> but only if we update sane-srcrevs.inc
Aug 20 13:59:08 <mickey|coffee> i wanted to do that once framework is stable again (after the preferences/eventsd reorg)
Aug 20 13:59:15 <mickey|coffee> hopefully on weekend
Aug 20 13:59:20 <mickey|coffee> until then we need to wait imo
Aug 20 14:00:42 <alphaone> okay
Aug 20 14:00:52 <alphaone> just wanted to mention so it doesn't get lost
Aug 20 14:00:57 <mickey|coffee> good thinking
Aug 20 14:01:06 <mickey|coffee> it's actually a bit unfortunate
Aug 20 14:01:14 <mickey|coffee> people who build with autorev get the wrong config
Aug 20 14:01:20 <mickey|coffee> but there's nothing i can do about that
Aug 20 14:01:42 <mickey|coffee> must decide between stable getting the right config or devel
Aug 20 14:03:49 <alphaone> yeah, the min and maxrev should be there not only for patches but for all kind of files
Aug 20 14:03:55 <alphaone> In SRC_URI
Aug 20 14:04:11 <rwhitby> mickey|coffee: perhaps put the config in the git repo?
Aug 20 14:04:19 <rwhitby> then it matches the code
Aug 20 14:05:06 <alphaone> rwhitby: Well, we don't want to have lots of devicespecific configs in the repo.
Aug 20 14:05:35 <mickey|coffee> rwhitby: i thought about that, but i'd rather leave the device specific stuff to OE
Aug 20 14:06:07 <mickey|coffee> alphaone: the problem... even if we had minrev and maxrev... git would not care
Aug 20 14:06:08 <rwhitby> you could have an 'examples' directory for this eary churn phase of development
Aug 20 14:06:16 <rwhitby> which just happen to match what is needed in OE ..
Aug 20 14:06:16 <mickey|coffee> ~lart hashes instead of incremental revisions
Aug 20 14:06:26 <alphaone> mickey|coffee: Ah, right
Aug 20 14:07:00 <rwhitby> and then move them to OE when things stabilize to having real version numbers in OE
Aug 20 14:08:09 <mickey|coffee> agreed
Aug 20 14:08:13 <mickey|coffee> i think i'll do that
Aug 20 14:08:18 <mickey|coffee> at least until framework is 1.0
Aug 20 14:08:34 <rwhitby> then in OE you can have versioned files dirs
Aug 20 14:18:02 <mickeyl> ooh
Aug 20 14:18:08 <mickeyl> ~praise %CGREG
Aug 20 14:18:16 <mickeyl> we get a signal when GPRS is on hold
Aug 20 14:18:17 <mickeyl> nice
Aug 20 14:18:21 <mickeyl> (interrupted by a talk)
Aug 20 14:18:29 * mickeyl opens a ticket
Aug 20 14:18:52 <mickeyl> too bad this is not in the standard
Aug 20 14:18:54 <alphaone> mickeyl: Ah, not done yet with the gsm subsystem? :-)
Aug 20 14:19:09 <mickeyl> alphaone: spotted this by chance in this very moment
Aug 20 14:19:14 <mickeyl> repairing oeventsd ringing action
Aug 20 14:19:19 <alphaone> :-)
Aug 20 14:19:20 <mickeyl> and seen this as unhandled unsol
Aug 20 14:24:15 <Prezu_> How do I clone pkg-fso repositories from git://git.debian.org/git/pkg-fso/?
Aug 20 14:24:49 <Prezu_> I mean, when I e. g. do: git clone git://git.debian.org/git/pkg-fso/zhone.git it only clones master branch
Aug 20 14:25:13 <Prezu_> Is there any extra git magic needed to clone all branches?
Aug 20 14:27:51 <dlowe> run git branch -r
Aug 20 14:27:58 <dlowe> in your working directory
Aug 20 14:28:13 <Prezu_> dlowe: ah, thanks
Aug 20 14:56:12 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: just so you know
Aug 20 14:56:25 <Ainulindale> A parameter is needed in the default frameworkd.conf
Aug 20 14:56:30 <Ainulindale> Did you see what I told yesterday about that ?
Aug 20 14:56:47 <Ainulindale> (for oeventsd)
Aug 20 14:57:07 <Ainulindale> (I'm currently in the wonderful world of ORA-X error codes so I'm a bit confused)
Aug 20 14:58:36 <mickeyl> which parameter?
Aug 20 14:58:56 <Ainulindale> rules_file = /path/to/rules.yaml
Aug 20 14:59:09 <Ainulindale> (which should be /etc/freesmartphone/oeventsd/rules.yaml)
Aug 20 14:59:30 <mickeyl> right, that's probably missing in OE
Aug 20 14:59:38 <mickeyl> if you build with autorev, the config is not matching
Aug 20 14:59:38 <Ainulindale> And as of now
Aug 20 14:59:55 <Ainulindale> As there's no way to change to alsa scenario
Aug 20 15:00:00 <Ainulindale> You won't have any ringtone whatsoever
Aug 20 15:00:05 <mickeyl> yeah
Aug 20 15:00:07 <Ainulindale> But at least you'll have vibrate events
Aug 20 15:00:11 <Ainulindale> Hence my remark
Aug 20 15:00:13 <mickeyl> the transition to oeventsd is not complete
Aug 20 15:00:16 <mickeyl> i'm working on that
Aug 20 15:00:20 <Ainulindale> I know :-)
Aug 20 15:00:44 * mickeyl adding PushScenario and PullScenario atm.
Aug 20 15:00:46 <mickeyl> stack-based
Aug 20 15:00:56 <mickeyl> so we return the previous scenario after a gsm call
Aug 20 15:01:05 <mickeyl> which makes some sense
Aug 20 15:07:20 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: nice :-)
Aug 20 15:08:40 <mickeyl> after that, i'll readd the AudioSetup from old oeventd
Aug 20 15:08:48 <mickeyl> then we should be able to do phonecalls again
Aug 20 15:59:15 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r25a0c42433fe 10/ (framework/subsystems/odeviced/audio.py tools/cli-framework): odeviced: org.freesmartphone.Audio: add PushScenario( scenario ) and PullScenario() -> previous
Aug 20 15:59:21 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07specs * rbd52e25ae3c2 10/ (4 files in 4 dirs): odevice: document scenario API in org.freesmartphone.Device.Audio.xml
Aug 20 16:24:13 <Ainulindale> mickey|dinner: to "do" phonecalls ? What ? We aren't now ?
Aug 20 16:27:11 <aleix> hi
Aug 20 16:37:39 <mickeyl> heh
Aug 20 16:37:56 <mickeyl> we do phone calls, but without audio since the latest frameworkd changes
Aug 20 16:39:22 <wurp2|working> :-(
Aug 20 16:40:39 <mickeyl> heh, don't worry
Aug 20 16:41:02 <mickeyl> i warned you all that between milestones I take the liberty to destabilize it
Aug 20 16:41:11 <mickeyl> for the sake of refactoring and good code quality
Aug 20 16:41:19 <mickeyl> it's going to work again by the end of this week
Aug 20 16:41:25 <mickeyl> i need it to for a demo ;)
Aug 20 16:56:58 <Sup3rkiddo> AJuOnLiNE, 
Aug 20 16:57:06 <AJuOnLiNE> hi Sup3rkiddo
Aug 20 16:58:01 <AJuOnLiNE> Sup3rkiddo: Sahana is a web based disaster management system.. 
Aug 20 16:58:36 <AJuOnLiNE> i am trying to evaluate OpenMoko device.. to have a Sahana Client app built.. so that the device can be used for disaster reporting.. in emergency situations
Aug 20 16:58:49 <Sup3rkiddo> AJuOnLiNE, just ask away your queries...its a pretty friendly crowd
Aug 20 16:59:33 <AJuOnLiNE> i need my client app to interact with the hardware to comunicate to Sahana using SMS, GPRS, Wireless
Aug 20 16:59:50 <AJuOnLiNE> since i made the server side component in Sahana for SMS handling.. 
Aug 20 17:00:02 <AJuOnLiNE> i will start off with that.. and second wireless too..
Aug 20 17:00:27 <AJuOnLiNE> and the app will also use the GPS 
Aug 20 17:00:47 <AJuOnLiNE> since the users are from diverse base.. the focus will also be on the UI of the app.
Aug 20 17:00:54 <AJuOnLiNE> with options for localising the app.. 
Aug 20 17:00:59 <AJuOnLiNE> in other languages..
Aug 20 17:01:29 <AJuOnLiNE> so .. how do I go about developing a client app for it .. as in which distro to use, what framework, programming language.. 
Aug 20 17:05:56 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r6d4fdacc8788 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): odeviced: audio: load default scenario on startup. closes FSO ticket #83
Aug 20 17:06:02 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: What I was wondering about is that I can make phone calls right now
Aug 20 17:06:15 <Ainulindale> I just loaded gsmhandset once and that's all
Aug 20 17:07:30 <mickeyl> right, that's going to work :)
Aug 20 17:07:48 <mickeyl> well
Aug 20 17:07:55 <mickeyl> until you update to 6d4fdacc...
Aug 20 17:08:00 <Ainulindale> But I tried that because I like to work around stuff not working :-)
Aug 20 17:08:00 <mickeyl> which loads the default scenario on startup ;)
Aug 20 17:08:07 <Ainulindale> Ah, you're an ass :-)
Aug 20 17:08:13 <mickeyl> hehe
Aug 20 17:08:13 <Ainulindale> By the way
Aug 20 17:08:25 <Ainulindale> It sounds dumb to me to give to opreferencesd volumes
Aug 20 17:08:27 <mickeyl> will do the rest for auto changing this night
Aug 20 17:08:32 <Ainulindale> Why not give it a scenario name ?
Aug 20 17:08:48 <Ainulindale> I'm sure there's a good reason but I can't see it
Aug 20 17:08:53 <mickeyl> good question.
Aug 20 17:08:56 <mickeyl> please mail that to the list
Aug 20 17:09:01 <mickeyl> it was Charlie's idea
Aug 20 17:09:05 <Ainulindale> It seems I can't post to the list by the way
Aug 20 17:09:05 <mickeyl> and we should discuss that 
Aug 20 17:09:07 <mickeyl> oh
Aug 20 17:09:12 <mickeyl> are you subscribed?
Aug 20 17:09:17 <Ainulindale> I am
Aug 20 17:09:22 <mickeyl> bummer. let me check the members
Aug 20 17:09:27 <Ainulindale> Did you see the post I did yesterday ?
Aug 20 17:09:30 <mickeyl> what's your email address start with?
Aug 20 17:09:34 <Ainulindale> ainulindale
Aug 20 17:10:08 <mickeyl> ok, i can see you in member directory
Aug 20 17:10:12 <mickeyl> let me check archive
Aug 20 17:10:16 <mickeyl> what did you post?
Aug 20 17:10:24 <Ainulindale> my oeventsd patch
Aug 20 17:10:28 <mickeyl> yep
Aug 20 17:10:29 <mickeyl> arrived
Aug 20 17:10:33 <mickeyl> two mails
Aug 20 17:10:37 <mickeyl> one without the patch, one with :)
Aug 20 17:10:40 <Ainulindale> :-p
Aug 20 17:10:54 <edistar_> lindi-: ping
Aug 20 17:11:38 <mickeyl> (volume) i think this is handy for devices which have no concept about alsa scenarios
Aug 20 17:11:57 <mickeyl> think about OSS or the devices where the audio path is not controlled with scenarios
Aug 20 17:12:17 <mickeyl> i agree though that perhaps we need to encode the alsa scenario _in addition_ to the volume
Aug 20 17:12:26 <mickeyl> we should talk about that
Aug 20 17:13:55 <mickeyl> actually the whole audio scenario stuff is frightening :/
Aug 20 17:13:58 <mickeyl> it's a strange concept
Aug 20 17:14:01 <Ainulindale> I just wrote the mail
Aug 20 17:14:06 <mickeyl> k, cool, thanks
Aug 20 17:14:33 <mickeyl> i don't like that scenario stuff because it ties the audio handling very much into the device specifics
Aug 20 17:14:40 <Ainulindale> Sent
Aug 20 17:14:40 <mickeyl> and i don't like closely coupled systems
Aug 20 17:14:52 <mickeyl> but it seems we have no choice
Aug 20 17:14:54 <Ainulindale> I don't think it ties it that way
Aug 20 17:14:59 <Ainulindale> If opreferencesd can load sound scenarios
Aug 20 17:15:04 <Ainulindale> We can plug any kind of scenario
Aug 20 17:15:17 <Ainulindale> Then we just have to say in its profile configuration which one we want to load
Aug 20 17:15:44 <mickeyl> yeah, that's all cool for a discrete and small number of fixed scenarios
Aug 20 17:15:49 <mickeyl> BUT
Aug 20 17:15:59 <Ainulindale> Why would you need a hundred scenarii ?
Aug 20 17:16:12 <mickeyl> you get scenario explosion once you factor in things like equalizing, volume, even headphones
Aug 20 17:16:25 <Ainulindale> Can't see why 
Aug 20 17:16:44 <Ainulindale> Read my mail if you want to know what I thought about that :-)
Aug 20 17:16:52 <mickeyl> ok, lets discuss that via mail
Aug 20 17:17:04 <mickeyl> i need to go to sports anyways now
Aug 20 17:17:06 <Ainulindale> I just think this attribute isn't enough
Aug 20 17:17:07 <mickeyl> be back tonite
Aug 20 17:17:22 <Ainulindale> Think of the noise detection as an example
Aug 20 17:17:27 <Ainulindale> Good sports then ;-)
Aug 20 17:17:48 <Ainulindale> By the way I'm so tired I just wrote "LousyEnvironment" instead of "Noisy"
Aug 20 17:17:52 <Ainulindale> But I think it's understandable :-)
Aug 20 17:18:03 <edistar_> my neo doesn't boot anymore.. the speakers do crackle though..
Aug 20 17:18:15 <edistar_> I thought this was fixed for the FR?
Aug 20 17:18:19 <Ainulindale> edistar_: deeply discharged battery ?
Aug 20 17:18:26 <Ainulindale> edistar_: Fixed with the correct uboot patch
Aug 20 17:18:43 <edistar_> Ainulindale: I flashed uboot from 12th august, is that recent enough?
Aug 20 17:20:18 <edistar_> any solution?
Aug 20 17:20:38 <edistar_> I have a n770 battery that also has 3.7V, should I just connect it in parallel?
Aug 20 17:21:06 <Ainulindale> There is instructions on the wiki
Aug 20 17:21:11 <Ainulindale> Remove the battery, wait ten seconds
Aug 20 17:21:20 <Ainulindale> Put the battery on, connect it to AC charger
Aug 20 17:21:26 <Ainulindale> Then wait an hour
Aug 20 17:21:28 <aleix> Ainulindale: i have created a layout for fso/shr, i'm trying to use the fso makefile from rwhitby now
Aug 20 17:21:39 <Ainulindale> aleix: nice :-)
Aug 20 17:21:52 <Ainulindale> You should ask help to him, and mail recommendations to the shr ml
Aug 20 17:21:59 <Ainulindale> there are packages with wrong names
Aug 20 17:22:09 <Ainulindale> e.g. openmoko-panel-gsl
Aug 20 17:22:12 <Ainulindale> -l+m
Aug 20 17:22:19 <aleix> ok
Aug 20 17:22:23 <Ainulindale> which should be openmoko-panel-gsm-fso
Aug 20 17:23:14 <aleix> well, by now let see if i'm able to build something :-)
Aug 20 17:23:20 <aleix> from the layout
Aug 20 17:35:02 <aleix> Ainulindale: the build has started.. let's see what happens when it arrives to shr packages :-)
Aug 20 17:36:44 <aleix> Ainulindale: http://pastebin.com/d55a628a4  (the layout)
Aug 20 17:37:36 <quickdev> Hey
Aug 20 17:38:20 <lindi-> edistar_: pong
Aug 20 17:38:24 <aleix> Ainulindale: i've basically moved all .bb file to its own directory. and i've moved the sources to the sources dir
Aug 20 17:38:39 <edistar_> lindi-: I had a look at emdebian
Aug 20 17:38:48 <edistar_> lindi-: I'm sure you don't want that on the FR
Aug 20 17:38:50 <aleix> Ainulindale: i'll work on that
Aug 20 17:39:30 <Ainulindale> That's not what you should do
Aug 20 17:39:37 <Ainulindale> There's a specific thing to do an openembedded overlay
Aug 20 17:39:45 <Ainulindale> You should ask rwhitby he knows more than me :-)
Aug 20 17:39:54 <lindi-> edistar_: really?
Aug 20 17:39:56 <aleix> yes, i was following the manual
Aug 20 17:40:07 <lindi-> edistar_: i thought it was a project to add target to debian/rules that make smaller packages
Aug 20 17:40:43 <Ainulindale> aleix: doesn't look like what he said to me
Aug 20 17:40:47 <Ainulindale> Especially for the sources part
Aug 20 17:40:57 <edistar_> lindi-: it gets rid of perl, it gets rid of 'essential' so not all dependencies are necessarily resolved
Aug 20 17:40:58 <Ainulindale> But then I'm sure you checked that :-)
Aug 20 17:41:00 <aleix> Ainulindale: well...there is no description for the sources :-)
Aug 20 17:41:13 <Ainulindale> aleix: then you sould put them apart
Aug 20 17:41:15 <edistar_> lindi-: it changes the distro so much that it is very similar to OE/angstrom
Aug 20 17:41:18 <Ainulindale> Let them the way they are
Aug 20 17:41:25 <edistar_> lindi-: so there'd be no point in using debian anymore
Aug 20 17:41:26 <lindi-> edistar_: right, some people might like that :))
Aug 20 17:41:27 <Ainulindale> And build a specific "openembedded" directory for everything else
Aug 20 17:41:36 <lindi-> edistar_: but we might get some optimizations ideas from them
Aug 20 17:41:52 <edistar_> lindi-: yes.. e.g. not using glib
Aug 20 17:42:02 <edistar_> lindi-: but we could just as well get optimization ideas from OE
Aug 20 17:42:24 <aleix> Ainulindale: ok, i'll have a look
Aug 20 17:43:00 <edistar_> afaik most people liked the idea of debian on the FR because it's a 'standard distro', so that everything works like on the desktop
Aug 20 17:43:42 <aleix> Ainulindale: i was following http://www.kernel-labs.org/files/openembedded-guide/openembedded-guide-6.html#ss6.1
Aug 20 17:43:51 <Ainulindale> edistar_: IMHO, it's because they're afraid of learning something else :-)
Aug 20 17:44:14 <edistar_> Ainulindale: maybe
Aug 20 17:44:16 <Ainulindale> A mobile device needs specific adapted software, as I see it :-)
Aug 20 17:44:23 <Ainulindale> But then that's only my opinion
Aug 20 17:44:33 <edistar_> Ainulindale: as an end-user product I agree
Aug 20 17:44:42 <aleix> Ainulindale: where local is  shr  and then all the layout inside that
Aug 20 17:45:06 <Ainulindale> aleix: Sorry I don't have the time to look into that :-)
Aug 20 17:45:09 <Ainulindale> Doing something else there :-)
Aug 20 17:45:28 <aleix> Ainulindale: :-) ok, i'll ask at the mailing list
Aug 20 17:45:40 <lindi-> edistar_: yes
Aug 20 17:45:41 <Ainulindale> Sounds good to me
Aug 20 17:45:44 <aleix> Ainulindale: when I have something ready, where/how should i send it?
Aug 20 17:46:02 <Ainulindale> I'll give you commit access to the SHR repo
Aug 20 17:46:28 <aleix> ok
Aug 20 17:57:48 <trupheenix> hi Ainulindale
Aug 20 17:57:53 <trupheenix> i'm back
Aug 20 17:59:36 <trupheenix> Ainulindale: i need to understand what the different components of the SHR do i'm not clear. can u give me a brief?
Aug 20 17:59:45 <Ainulindale> On what ?
Aug 20 17:59:54 <Ainulindale> Quickly because I'm doing another thing right now :-p
Aug 20 18:00:26 <trupheenix> Ainulindale: hmmmm
Aug 20 18:01:15 <trupheenix> Ainulindale: libframeworkd-glib ophoned neod
Aug 20 18:01:45 <Ainulindale> libframeworkd-glib is a library to use frameworkd dbus primitives without pain
Aug 20 18:01:57 <Ainulindale> ophonekitd is the daemon actually using the library to monitor phone evnets
Aug 20 18:02:00 <Ainulindale> s/ne/en/
Aug 20 18:02:03 <Ainulindale> neod is bound to die
Aug 20 18:02:21 <trupheenix> Ainulindale: ok
Aug 20 18:02:38 <Ainulindale> trupheenix: see my article on the wiki about libframeworkd-glib (lfg)
Aug 20 18:03:20 <trupheenix> Ainulindale: how was i supposed to help u out? how did u say i could contribute?
Aug 20 18:03:30 <Ainulindale> I can't remember
Aug 20 18:03:38 <Ainulindale> Could I talk to you again in half an hour or so ?
Aug 20 18:05:10 <trupheenix> Ainulindale: provided I'm awake lol... i'm somehow managing to keep my eyes open
Aug 20 18:05:21 <wurp2|working> trupheenix: I at least mostly understand how the pieces fit together, so if you have more questions I can probably answer them
Aug 20 18:06:17 <trupheenix> wurp2|working: ok
Aug 20 18:16:14 <paulproteus> (Hey dudes.)
Aug 20 18:16:21 <paulproteus> I just got back from Debconf.
Aug 20 18:18:24 <paulproteus> Sorry I've been so inactive lately - how are things coming?
Aug 20 18:18:38 <wurp2|working> Same old, more or less
Aug 20 18:18:48 <wurp2|working> I think abraxa_ fixed the media player
Aug 20 18:19:00 <wurp2|working> But we're still not done with the GTK side of dialer3
Aug 20 18:19:21 <wurp2|working> afaik that's all that's really holding us back from first release
Aug 20 18:19:37 <paulproteus> Very nice!
Aug 20 18:19:38 <wurp2|working> of course, I was out last week so I'm sure there's other news that I've missed
Aug 20 18:20:03 <wurp2|working> And there are definitely other things to be done, but afaik none of them would prevent an early release
Aug 20 18:20:13 * paulproteus nods
Aug 20 18:20:22 <wurp2|working> How is 2008.8?  Are calls stable?  Suspend/resume?
Aug 20 18:21:33 <paulproteus> I'm so out of touch my phone is still running 2007.2....
Aug 20 18:21:41 <paulproteus> I'm pretty excited by playing with Debian on a friend's, though.
Aug 20 18:21:42 <wurp2|working> me too, ScaredyCat
Aug 20 18:21:48 <paulproteus> Name-brand IceWeasel!
Aug 20 18:22:00 <dlowe> sound still doesn't cut on quickly enough while talking
Aug 20 18:22:05 <wurp2|working> Does the Debian release have phone support?
Aug 20 18:22:14 <wurp2|working> dlowe: :-(  thx for the info
Aug 20 18:23:01 <dlowe> wurp2|working: but it's much, much more responsive and prettier
Aug 20 18:23:12 <dlowe> wurp2|working: it's worth upgrading, definitely
Aug 20 18:23:39 <wurp2|working> much more responsive than 2007.2?
Aug 20 18:23:47 <dlowe> wurp2|working: yeah
Aug 20 18:23:53 <wurp2|working> And calls are stable?
Aug 20 18:24:08 <wurp2|working> i.e. it doesn't stop ringing after 24 hours
Aug 20 18:24:08 * dlowe didn't do a long-term stability check.
Aug 20 18:24:35 <paulproteus> wurp2|working, Yeah, calls work okay on Debian.
Aug 20 18:24:37 <dlowe> With the mic issue, I can't really use it as a phone yet
Aug 20 18:24:57 <wurp2|working> dlowe: Oh, if you can't use it as a phone, I'm sure as heck not switching
Aug 20 18:25:06 <wurp2|working> paulproteus: What phone app were they using?
Aug 20 18:25:13 <paulproteus> zhone
Aug 20 18:25:22 <dlowe> wurp2|working: I couldn't use 2007.2 as a phone either
Aug 20 18:25:24 <wurp2|working> OK, so it was Debian with fso installed
Aug 20 18:25:28 <wurp2|working> dlowe: Weird
Aug 20 18:25:39 <wurp2|working> dlowe: It's not very stable, but when it works, it seems to work fine
Aug 20 18:25:50 <wurp2|working> Some echo issue :-(
Aug 20 18:26:00 <wurp2|working> But I can almost always fix that by turning it down a bit
Aug 20 18:26:17 <dlowe> wurp2: I checked with another phone in my ear. It always cuts the first 2/10ths of a second off when I start talking
Aug 20 18:26:42 <dlowe> it's fine for receiving voice
Aug 20 18:27:31 <wurp2|working> each time you start talking it cuts some off?
Aug 20 18:27:37 <wurp2|working> Or only when you start the call?
Aug 20 18:27:43 <dlowe> each time I start talking
Aug 20 18:27:54 <wurp2|working> :-(
Aug 20 18:28:17 <dlowe> if you've been using it as a full time phone, you might want to check yourself
Aug 20 18:28:24 <wurp2|working> I have been
Aug 20 18:28:26 <wurp2|working> But I'm using gta01
Aug 20 18:28:37 <dlowe> ah. I dunno then.  This is with a FR
Aug 20 18:57:32 <sirkha_top> has the decision to use network manager or intel connection manager been made yet?
Aug 20 18:57:53 <sirkha_top> for fso
Aug 20 18:58:45 <wurp2|working> I have no idea what those are :-)
Aug 20 18:59:27 <sirkha_top> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenmokoFramework#Network
Aug 20 19:01:23 <wurp2|working> Thanks!  Reading...
Aug 20 19:05:50 <wurp2|working> So, is the connection manager there to decide which networks to connect to automatically?
Aug 20 19:06:01 <wurp2|working> s/networks/wifi networks/
Aug 20 19:06:30 <sirkha_top> yes, and to provide an interface for selecting what network to choose, and getting some network statistics, i think
Aug 20 19:06:40 <sirkha_top> i would recomend staying away from network manager
Aug 20 19:07:19 <sirkha_top> and i am currently looking into connman, but since it is not my decision, *shrugs* not sure when the fso guys plan to implement anything like that
Aug 20 19:07:46 <wurp2|working> Yeah, me either, obviously :-)
Aug 20 19:08:06 <wurp2|working> Sorry, the information flowed the wrong way in response to your question ;-)
Aug 20 19:08:35 <sirkha_top> i am still a bit confused on the politics of fso, is it a community thing? something official? who started it, who is maintaining it? etc
Aug 20 19:09:20 <wurp2|working> It is official
Aug 20 19:09:25 <wurp2|working> Mickey L runs it
Aug 20 19:09:54 <wurp2|working> I don't know of any specific plan of how it gets rolled into 2008.8 or whatever the latest OM distro will be at that time
Aug 20 19:10:04 <wurp2|working> But I have repeatedly heard that there is a general plan
Aug 20 19:10:09 <sirkha_top> how openly is all that stuff run?
Aug 20 19:10:19 <wurp2|working> SHR is the only community distro that I know of, and it hasn't had a release yet :-)
Aug 20 19:10:32 <sirkha_top> is that you who is behind that?
Aug 20 19:10:34 <sirkha_top> i can't remember
Aug 20 19:10:41 <wurp2|working> Quite openly, I think, if you're willing to dig through 1000s of emails
Aug 20 19:10:56 <sirkha_top> yeah, i am subscribed to one of the lists
Aug 20 19:10:56 <wurp2|working> I kicked the project off, and theoretically I'm PM on it
Aug 20 19:11:16 <sirkha_top> hows it going?
Aug 20 19:11:32 <wurp2|working> I haven't contributed any actual code at all, unless you consider kibitzing on IRC with the developers :-(
Aug 20 19:11:47 <wurp2|working> We have some GTK stuff we need to get done on the dialer before we can release
Aug 20 19:11:48 <sirkha_top> every project needs an administrater
Aug 20 19:11:55 <wurp2|working> afaik that's the only show-stopper still out there
Aug 20 19:12:26 <wurp2|working> There are several other things that really need to be done for a full release, including contacts updates and messages updates
Aug 20 19:12:35 <wurp2|working> Those sound as if they're going pretty quickly, though
Aug 20 19:12:44 <wurp2|working> I was out all last week, so I'm catching up on some stuff
Aug 20 19:12:47 <sirkha_top> ah
Aug 20 19:13:40 <sirkha_top> i have milestone 2 on my phone right now, and i like where FSO is going,and would like to contribute a little, if i have time, which i don't but that doesn't keep me from trying
Aug 20 19:13:50 <wurp2|working> originally we thought we were going to write an adapter from ophoned to oframeworkd, and get this done in record time
Aug 20 19:14:04 <mwester> Yeah, I hear _some_ lucky folks get vacations, even... :p
Aug 20 19:14:16 <wurp2|working> Unfortunately that worked out about the same way OM's "quick switch" to using Qtopia for calls worked
Aug 20 19:14:24 <wurp2|working> mwester: Yeah, about that vacation
Aug 20 19:14:42 <wurp2|working> http://wurp.blogspot.com/2008/08/delta-screwed-us.html
Aug 20 19:14:59 <wurp2|working> sirkha_top: Yeah, I'm in the same boat on time
Aug 20 19:15:08 <sirkha_top> what do you do?
Aug 20 19:15:21 <wurp2|working> I got some early projects done on the neo, which made me too optimistic on how much time I could devote to SHR
Aug 20 19:15:29 <wurp2|working> sling java code
Aug 20 19:15:33 <wurp2|working> at Southwest Airlines
Aug 20 19:16:10 <sirkha_top> ah
Aug 20 19:16:20 <sirkha_top> and... why ... were... you flying delta?
Aug 20 19:17:23 <wurp2|working> because SWA is flights in the states only
Aug 20 19:17:30 <wurp2|working> US Virgin Islands is a territory
Aug 20 19:17:44 <sirkha_top> ah, you were going to the virgin islands
Aug 20 19:17:46 <wurp2|working> Actually, I am a contractor here, so I have no flight perks
Aug 20 19:18:00 <wurp2|working> But I much prefer SWA anyway
Aug 20 19:18:07 <sirkha_top> and thats probably why you are a contractor and not an employee, heh
Aug 20 19:18:11 <sirkha_top> employees are expensive
Aug 20 19:18:56 <wurp2|working> I prefer to get my money in my pocket
Aug 20 19:19:11 <sirkha_top> i'd prefer both ;)
Aug 20 19:19:18 <wurp2|working> I'm pretty sure contractors are more expensive
Aug 20 19:19:25 <wurp2|working> me too
Aug 20 19:19:34 <sirkha_top> but anywho, we are a bit off topic
Aug 20 19:20:02 <wurp2|working> But salaried jobs paying over $120k seem pretty rare in Dallas/FW, and I can get much more than that contracting
Aug 20 19:20:35 <edistar_> sirkha_top: #openmoko-offtopic ;)
Aug 20 20:09:42 * paulproteus installs Debian on his FR
Aug 20 21:36:23 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07python-helpers * rd1f320604747 10/mickeydbus/mdbus: mdbus: increase client timeout for long-standing operations
Aug 20 21:37:32 <mickeyl> sirkha_top: ping
Aug 20 21:37:56 <mickeyl> sirkha_top: I'd be glad if you have comments on network manager vs. ICM on the smartphones-standards list
Aug 20 21:37:58 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: I'm interested in your opinion on my mail when you'll be available :-p
Aug 20 21:38:11 <mickeyl> Ainulindale: i try to answer tomorrow
Aug 20 21:38:14 <mickeyl> i have a slight backlog :)
Aug 20 21:38:22 <Ainulindale> Lazy pig :-p
Aug 20 21:38:24 <mickeyl> (online and offline tasks)
Aug 20 21:38:24 <mickeyl> heh
Aug 20 21:38:34 <Ainulindale> By the way
Aug 20 21:38:56 <Ainulindale> On the occasion I could be interested to work on frameworkd, on some stuff and idea I have which could be of interest 
Aug 20 21:39:05 <Ainulindale> I don't know if it's possible though
Aug 20 21:40:42 <mickeyl> of course
Aug 20 21:40:44 <mickeyl> would be cool
Aug 20 21:41:49 <Ainulindale> Just wondering because I'm tired to tell people "please correct this" or mail patch
Aug 20 21:42:10 <Ainulindale> And I don't want to see too many thanks Ainulindale in the commit logs
Aug 20 21:42:18 <Ainulindale> Soon people will tell I'm sympathetic
Aug 20 21:42:20 <Ainulindale> And I don't want that
Aug 20 21:42:28 <Ainulindale> I have a reputation
Aug 20 21:42:41 <Ainulindale> Ask wurp2|working
Aug 20 21:42:47 <Ainulindale> The old wench knows what I'm talking about :-p
Aug 20 21:43:22 <mickeyl> good. i trust you to know what you're doing, but please discuss on the mailing list if you plan invasive changes
Aug 20 21:43:28 <mickeyl> send me an ssh key and you get access
Aug 20 21:43:34 <Ainulindale> Of course
Aug 20 21:43:41 <Ainulindale> I'm the first one to dislike invasive change
Aug 20 21:43:42 <Ainulindale> Even change
Aug 20 21:43:55 <mickeyl> :)
Aug 20 21:44:02 <Ainulindale> mw got an hearful when he commited on libframeworkd-glib :-p
Aug 20 21:44:12 <wurp2|working> Yeah, you wouldn't want to tarnish your unsympathetic reputation
Aug 20 21:44:19 <wurp2|working> Ainulindale: heh
Aug 20 21:44:19 <Ainulindale> But he was right so I forgave him :-)
Aug 20 21:44:44 <wurp2|working> That's the hardest time to forgive someone :-)
Aug 20 21:45:02 <Ainulindale> Seriously when I heard about his change I understood quite the opposite thing
Aug 20 21:45:11 <Ainulindale> Then when I started to slowly realize what he did
Aug 20 21:45:26 <Ainulindale> I started telling myself "man, he's right"
Aug 20 21:45:34 <Ainulindale> And you know I can be stubborn, so, well ... :-p
Aug 20 21:45:48 <wurp2|working> Wow, that sounds like the stages I go through occasionally when I hear about your latest redesign
Aug 20 21:45:56 <Ainulindale> haha :-)
Aug 20 21:45:59 <Ainulindale> I don't do redesigns
Aug 20 21:46:03 <Ainulindale> I mostly do designs
Aug 20 21:46:04 <wurp2|working> First, I think I know what you're doing, but I'm totally wrong
Aug 20 21:46:08 <Ainulindale> Because there's nothing seriously
Aug 20 21:46:19 <wurp2|working> Then I realize I have no idea what you're doing
Aug 20 21:46:22 <Ainulindale> But now I let the thing going through its normal flow
Aug 20 21:46:27 <Ainulindale> Because I'm tired with UIs
Aug 20 21:46:28 <wurp2|working> Then I realize you're doing the right thing :-)
Aug 20 21:46:37 <wurp2|working> UIs = :-(
Aug 20 21:46:46 <Ainulindale> I think I'll maintain lfg and ophonekitd because they have a real important use or us
Aug 20 21:47:03 <Ainulindale> And because I think it's a really good way to quickly build a good UI library over frameworkd
Aug 20 21:47:10 <Ainulindale> And I'm happy I participated to that initiative
Aug 20 21:48:31 <wurp2|working> It sounds as if you're done with SHR :-/
Aug 20 21:48:54 <wurp2|working> Of course, you did do everything that I know of that we need except UI work and what should be some simple porting
Aug 20 21:48:58 <Ainulindale> Not at all, I'm not done
Aug 20 21:49:03 <Ainulindale> Just picture one thing
Aug 20 21:49:10 <Ainulindale> I can be a good PM when I have ideas
Aug 20 21:49:14 <Ainulindale> But when I haven't ideas
Aug 20 21:49:21 <Ainulindale> I can't be either a good PM or my own PM
Aug 20 21:49:37 <Ainulindale> So if you want me to do things, give them to me and show me why it's interesting
Aug 20 21:49:40 <Ainulindale> I'm easily bored :-)
Aug 20 21:49:46 <mickeyl> well, i think the cards are all open wrt. future UI
Aug 20 21:49:49 <wurp2|working> I hadn't noticed that :-)
Aug 20 21:49:59 <Ainulindale> wurp2|working: I hate you
Aug 20 21:50:01 <mickeyl> that's why i tossed the first ideas about that UMAF thing
Aug 20 21:50:04 <Ainulindale> But then I mostly hate old people so that's normal
Aug 20 21:50:27 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: What do you mean ?
Aug 20 21:51:03 <mickeyl> ok, imagine the following
Aug 20 21:51:09 <Ainulindale> wurp2|working: by the way did you see we now have a buildhost and someone working on an OE overlay ?
Aug 20 21:51:12 <mickeyl> lets say around the end of this year, the framework is complete
Aug 20 21:51:15 <wurp2|working> I've been thinking about forking zhone to add the stuff that's missing to make it work like dialer3
Aug 20 21:51:18 <mickeyl> so we have all nice low level services in place
Aug 20 21:51:24 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: It will be or else I shall destroy you
Aug 20 21:51:27 <mickeyl> *nod*
Aug 20 21:51:29 <mickeyl> it will be
Aug 20 21:51:34 <Ainulindale> :-)
Aug 20 21:51:35 <wurp2|working> Ainulindale: I missed the buildhost... I saw someone in here earlier talking to you about the overlay
Aug 20 21:51:36 <mickeyl> i want it to be done by the end of this year
Aug 20 21:51:38 <wurp2|working> Sounds very nice
Aug 20 21:51:40 <mickeyl> i want to do apps
Aug 20 21:51:45 <mickeyl> i'm fed up with low level framework :)
Aug 20 21:51:48 <mickeyl> anyways
Aug 20 21:51:57 <mickeyl> still what is supernecessary is a nice app framework
Aug 20 21:52:01 <mickeyl> mobile-optimized widgets
Aug 20 21:52:08 <mickeyl> some actual UI design and usability concepts
Aug 20 21:52:16 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: and in parenthesis talking about apps, given what I heard from developersi I think there's room for something official looking like lfg
Aug 20 21:52:51 <Ainulindale> (developers who want to do C obviously)
Aug 20 21:53:01 <Ainulindale> (but all other languages are for sissies)
Aug 20 21:53:04 <mickeyl> *nod*
Aug 20 21:53:12 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: I like to interrupt you :-p
Aug 20 21:53:27 <mickeyl> i think we should all sit together and think about how a nice app framework should look like
Aug 20 21:53:30 <mickeyl> taking the best ideas of Zhone
Aug 20 21:53:31 <mickeyl> Qtopia
Aug 20 21:53:37 <tmzt_mp900c_> hey, will it be possible to make a zhone that works without touchscreen?
Aug 20 21:53:39 <Ainulindale> I think that's actually a great idea
Aug 20 21:53:40 <mickeyl> iPHone
Aug 20 21:53:41 <mickeyl> and stuff
Aug 20 21:53:54 <mickeyl> and working together towards _the_ Mobile Community distro
Aug 20 21:54:00 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: Eeeew ! It which shall not be named !
Aug 20 21:54:03 <mickeyl> for multiple models (I'm not only talking 'bout Openmoko hardware)
Aug 20 21:54:23 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: there's plenty of events to do that in Europe or the US
Aug 20 21:54:23 <mickeyl> yeah well
Aug 20 21:54:29 <mickeyl> we should pick one
Aug 20 21:54:35 <Ainulindale> FOSDEM is nice
Aug 20 21:54:36 <mickeyl> and try whether we really can join forces
Aug 20 21:54:41 <mickeyl> agreed
Aug 20 21:55:00 <Ainulindale> Don't know where it is this year
Aug 20 21:55:19 <mickeyl> i don't want us (the FOSS world) doing another Zaurus scene. lots of distros, all crap, since everyone rolled his own
Aug 20 21:55:30 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: in fact one of the things I like on frameworkd is that it's modular, and simple
Aug 20 21:55:43 <Ainulindale> One of the thing I dislike is that its goal is to unify things
Aug 20 21:55:54 <Ainulindale> And it will obviously end with people doing quite the contrary
Aug 20 21:55:56 <mickeyl> indeed. it's tough to strive the proper balance there
Aug 20 21:56:06 <Ainulindale> One of these days, someone will be pissed by what this or that developer do, and will fork
Aug 20 21:56:23 <Ainulindale> So this "lots of distros, crap", etc will happen
Aug 20 21:56:41 <Ainulindale> But then as I'm quite happy myself with what has been done right now I don't care :-)
Aug 20 21:56:46 <mickeyl> yes, it's inevitable since they actually _can_ do this with open hardware and software
Aug 20 21:57:02 <mickeyl> still i think there could be one distro that's for the masses
Aug 20 21:57:07 <mickeyl> attracting not only developers, but also _users_
Aug 20 21:57:14 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: FOSDEM will be in Bruxelles
Aug 20 21:57:30 <mickeyl> (fosdem) yes, like every year. probably not at ULB though next year
Aug 20 21:57:52 <Ainulindale> Ask Sean for budget to rent an hotel then
Aug 20 21:57:53 <Ainulindale> And hookers
Aug 20 21:58:10 <Ainulindale> And peanuts, you don't want to forget those peanuts
Aug 20 21:58:11 <mickeyl> hehe
Aug 20 21:58:21 <mickeyl> will do next month when i meet him ;)
Aug 20 21:58:27 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: by distro what do you mean ?
Aug 20 21:58:33 <Ainulindale> a framework distro or a userland distro ?
Aug 20 21:59:02 <mickeyl> Ainulindale: actually i really mean a userland distro. full with apps that are great because they base on a nice and consistent ui framework with an actual usability concept behind...
Aug 20 21:59:08 <Ainulindale> Ok
Aug 20 21:59:15 <Ainulindale> So what I just wished to say regarding that
Aug 20 21:59:21 <Ainulindale> A good distro is a distro which isn't a distro
Aug 20 21:59:30 <Ainulindale> The best system is always the one we can't see...
Aug 20 21:59:50 <Ainulindale> So even if it's actually a good and honorable idea
Aug 20 21:59:55 <Ainulindale> I don't think it's relevant to the world of mobile devices
Aug 20 22:00:07 <Ainulindale> As it will undoubtably be conditioned by the actual device
Aug 20 22:00:19 <Ainulindale> Size, abilities, intended market, and so on
Aug 20 22:00:57 <Ainulindale> But it sounds to me as if you want one ring to bring them all and in the openess bind them :-)
Aug 20 22:01:28 <mickeyl> for the daily apps, yes
Aug 20 22:01:38 <mickeyl> i don't care whether people with special needs have special apps
Aug 20 22:01:42 <mickeyl> using whatever toolkit
Aug 20 22:01:44 <mickeyl> i don't care
Aug 20 22:01:49 <Ainulindale> I understand perfectly, and I quite agree with you
Aug 20 22:02:03 <Ainulindale> That's why I think the backbone should be unified, not the actual "full userland"
Aug 20 22:02:19 <Ainulindale> That's why I think frameworkd architecture is quite good right now
Aug 20 22:02:28 <Ainulindale> Because even if it's a pain to use because it's dbus
Aug 20 22:02:41 <Ainulindale> It's usable for all pretty easily, in almost all languages
Aug 20 22:02:46 <Ainulindale> (I didn't try dbus-brainfuck)
Aug 20 22:02:49 <mickeyl> heh
Aug 20 22:03:06 <Ainulindale> (But a signal call should look like . ... . ... no ?)
Aug 20 22:03:15 <Ainulindale> (dbus-whitespace may be clearer though regarding the syntax)
Aug 20 22:03:29 <Ainulindale> Ah I hate this
Aug 20 22:03:34 <Ainulindale> Now I want to port dbus to whitespace
Aug 20 22:03:36 <wurp2|working> mickeyl: Do you know if dbus-glib puts the thread to sleep while waiting for dbus events?
Aug 20 22:03:45 <Ainulindale> wurp2|working: Help me. I want to have real nice and useful idaes.
Aug 20 22:03:59 <mickeyl> well, i'm dreaming of something comparable to AppKit / UIKit / etc. this is my personal vision and i want to make this true. perhaps this approach is a deathborn, but now that i have the lower levels progressing so well, i will not stop with doing an app framework :)
Aug 20 22:03:59 <Ainulindale> wurp2|working: glib mainloop. So yes.
Aug 20 22:04:05 <mickeyl> wurp2|working: they hook it into the select call
Aug 20 22:04:14 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: And you're perfectly right
Aug 20 22:04:14 <wurp2|working> OK, excellent, thanks
Aug 20 22:04:29 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: But this obviously lead to the following caveat
Aug 20 22:04:39 <Ainulindale> people won't be happy with the low-levleness of the primitives you make
Aug 20 22:04:44 <Ainulindale> or the high-levelness for that matter
Aug 20 22:04:52 <Ainulindale> So they will either fork or try to workaround that
Aug 20 22:04:57 <Ainulindale> Which will be tricky to handle
Aug 20 22:05:16 <wurp2|working> Ideally you are moduler at a lot of different levels
Aug 20 22:05:23 <wurp2|working> I think oframeworkd is a great start at that
Aug 20 22:05:26 <mickeyl> well, it's not closed. if someone has a valid use case for an additional primitive, it's a FOSS project, it can go in
Aug 20 22:05:30 <Ainulindale> wurp2|working: Loose that o please :-)
Aug 20 22:05:42 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: yes but if it's a dumb one ?
Aug 20 22:05:46 <wurp2|working> Ainulindale: k
Aug 20 22:05:49 <Ainulindale> Don't tell me there's no dumb FOSS projects :-)
Aug 20 22:05:54 <mickeyl> hehe
Aug 20 22:06:16 <wurp2|working> er, s/moduler/modular/
Aug 20 22:06:19 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: the view is great, and I perfectly agree
Aug 20 22:06:25 <mickeyl> well, this probably goes too much into implementation talk, but i would imagine that the app framework is here to be used, if wanted. not being madatory
Aug 20 22:06:26 <wurp2|working> amyloid plaque sucks
Aug 20 22:06:27 <Ainulindale> But then see the ubiquitous ubuntu
Aug 20 22:06:53 <Ainulindale> Debian is the first place. But debian as a dumb politic regarding licenses. So fork. So original politic got lost somewhere
Aug 20 22:06:58 <Ainulindale> +h
Aug 20 22:07:39 <Ainulindale> So you end up with a better/worst software you did intend to be the backbone of some great community project, confusing users and developers
Aug 20 22:07:56 <Ainulindale> (Why am I trying to tell you what I do like on what you do is undoable ?)
Aug 20 22:08:16 <Ainulindale> (It must be the beer)
Aug 20 22:09:27 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: anyway, I seriously think these times I should build a parser to generate lfg from your xml docs
Aug 20 22:09:38 <Ainulindale> Because it's sooo dumb, but then so useful
Aug 20 22:09:41 <mickeyl> hehe
Aug 20 22:09:43 <mickeyl> worth a try
Aug 20 22:09:56 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: Unfortunately, I think it's a lost cause
Aug 20 22:10:06 <Ainulindale> I won't be happy with some generated code, I like art :-)
Aug 20 22:10:13 <mickeyl> sounds familiar
Aug 20 22:10:24 <Ainulindale> But I think lfg doesn't have its place on SHR, it should be managed by freesmartphone
Aug 20 22:10:53 <Ainulindale> because it's a critical, and I really mean critical, usefull tool
Aug 20 22:10:57 <mickeyl> yep
Aug 20 22:10:59 <mickeyl> i agree
Aug 20 22:10:59 <Ainulindale> And I don't say that because I came up with the idea
Aug 20 22:11:20 <Ainulindale> I spent two days trying to explain how to call dbus methods and listen to signals to people in C
Aug 20 22:11:23 <Ainulindale> In french
Aug 20 22:11:30 <Ainulindale> And I started to work with dbus a month ago
Aug 20 22:11:33 <mickeyl> if we want C-people to adopt FSO, we need that lib
Aug 20 22:11:38 <mickeyl> no discussion there
Aug 20 22:11:39 <Ainulindale> And even if I understand what I'm supposed to do
Aug 20 22:11:47 <Ainulindale> I'm not dbus lfuent
Aug 20 22:11:49 <Ainulindale> s/lf/fl/
Aug 20 22:11:54 <Ainulindale> And I don't think a lot of developers are
Aug 20 22:12:14 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: I think some functionnalities should be decoupled
Aug 20 22:12:26 <Ainulindale> I'm quite proud of our decoupling lfg/libframeworkd-phonegui-*/ophonekitd
Aug 20 22:12:31 <Ainulindale> It's mainly MVC
Aug 20 22:12:35 <Ainulindale> But it's working quite well
Aug 20 22:12:58 <Ainulindale> And it makes me laugh I managed to convince wurp2|working to do MVC in C
Aug 20 22:14:05 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: I really think an annouce should be made for lfg, but then, I have no legitimity for that
Aug 20 22:14:18 <Ainulindale> So if you think that's useful for you, please be my guest
Aug 20 22:15:24 <mickeyl> hmm
Aug 20 22:15:44 <mickeyl> it might make sense maintaing it in fso git
Aug 20 22:15:57 <mickeyl> urghs, my writing sucks tonight
Aug 20 22:15:57 <Ainulindale> Actually I think if we don't it's a deadend
Aug 20 22:16:14 <Ainulindale> Too much changes implies too much things to maintain 
Aug 20 22:16:23 <mickeyl> good. can you clear that with all guys involved?
Aug 20 22:16:30 <mickeyl> i don't want to seem like "taking it away"
Aug 20 22:16:30 <Ainulindale> s/implies/imply/
Aug 20 22:16:34 <Ainulindale> "All guys" ?
Aug 20 22:16:36 <Ainulindale> You mean me ?
Aug 20 22:16:42 <mickeyl> oh, it was just you:)
Aug 20 22:16:53 <Ainulindale> mw and Andrease did correct some of my bugs
Aug 20 22:17:07 <mickeyl> ok. then lets have the following action plan:
Aug 20 22:17:12 <mickeyl> 1) you send me an ssh key
Aug 20 22:17:16 <mickeyl> 2) i give you access
Aug 20 22:17:23 <mickeyl> 3) i create a repo for it
Aug 20 22:17:25 <mickeyl> 4) you upload
Aug 20 22:17:26 <mickeyl> 5) i announce
Aug 20 22:17:30 <mickeyl> deal?
Aug 20 22:17:35 <Ainulindale> mickey at vanilla something ?
Aug 20 22:17:47 <mickeyl> mickey@vanille-media.de
Aug 20 22:18:41 <Ainulindale> Now remember where my key is
Aug 20 22:18:43 <Ainulindale> That's a tricky one
Aug 20 22:18:52 <mickeyl> heh, good luck in searching :)
Aug 20 22:18:58 * mickeyl does some banking meanwhile...
Aug 20 22:19:05 <Ainulindale> Well, you won't believe me. 
Aug 20 22:19:15 <Ainulindale> -rwx------ 1 ainu wheel 40 avril 21  2007 /home/ainu/.ssh/passphrase
Aug 20 22:19:23 <Ainulindale> My passphrase is actually clear texst there.
Aug 20 22:19:24 <mickeyl> uh oh :)
Aug 20 22:19:31 <Ainulindale> And just so you know
Aug 20 22:19:34 <Ainulindale> I work in IT security
Aug 20 22:20:40 <Ainulindale> Ok step 1) Checked
Aug 20 22:24:51 <mickeyl> got it
Aug 20 22:25:03 <mickeyl> let me finish banking and then I'll do 2+3
Aug 20 22:25:44 <Ainulindale> I'm not in a hurry
Aug 20 22:26:42 <Ainulindale> Though I think the annouce has to be done because someone came in just to know how he could use frameworkd along with GTK :-)
Aug 20 22:26:58 <Ainulindale> And fortunately I embezzled him enough for him to understand he had to work on SHR
Aug 20 22:27:07 <mickeyl> good thinking :)
Aug 20 22:27:23 <Ainulindale> Yeah but I don't like that
Aug 20 22:27:28 <Ainulindale> wurp2|working is the businessman here
Aug 20 22:27:31 <Ainulindale> He has to do this PM job
Aug 20 22:27:39 <Ainulindale> I'm just the evil sidekick
Aug 20 22:27:54 <Ainulindale> wurp2|working: lazy grandpa !
Aug 20 22:30:33 <sirkha_top> mickeyl: i don't like network manager, i can't find any good documentation on the api, introspection doesn't seem to work right for me, and the api isn't stable
Aug 20 22:30:46 <sirkha_top> (it changed between .7 and .6 from what i gather)
Aug 20 22:31:59 <sirkha_top> it also seems like, instead of designing it around providing a service in the daemon, they designed it around the user interface, and made d-bus the interface for convienance
Aug 20 22:32:44 <sirkha_top> i was talking over in #edevelp and they mentioned connman (i like the name) http://www.moblin.org/projects/projects_connman.php
Aug 20 22:33:01 <sirkha_top> i am gonna do some research into that
Aug 20 22:33:08 <sirkha_top> i don't know anything about ICM
Aug 20 22:35:18 <Ainulindale> Well guys I really have to sleep
Aug 20 22:35:22 <Ainulindale> It's half past midnight here
Aug 20 22:35:35 <Ainulindale> And tomorrow I'm wrestling with oracle
Aug 20 22:35:36 <Ainulindale> so see you
Aug 20 22:37:54 <mickeyl> see you, good night
Aug 20 22:38:04 <mickeyl> sirkha_top: connman is probably ICM
Aug 20 22:38:07 <mickeyl> intel connection manager
Aug 20 22:38:52 <sirkha_top> hmm, i kind of got the impression it wasn't
Aug 20 22:39:02 <sirkha_top> *looks up intel connection manager*
Aug 20 22:39:34 <lambda> hi any idea to access a microSD card from my host pc when  neo is plugged in ?
Aug 20 22:39:58 <sirkha_top> scp?
Aug 20 22:40:01 <lambda> i don't have a /dev/mmcblk0p1 
Aug 20 22:40:35 <lambda> i have to to do a fdisk
Aug 20 22:41:02 <sirkha_top> *lied*
Aug 20 22:41:24 <sirkha_top> intel connection manager and connman do appear to be the same
Aug 20 22:42:03 <sirkha_top> you don't have a /dev/mmcblk0p1 on your host pc?
Aug 20 22:42:08 <sirkha_top> have you asked in #openmoko?
Aug 20 22:43:15 <lambda> y-es
Aug 20 22:43:30 <lambda> very weird issue
Aug 20 22:43:50 <sirkha_top> hmm
Aug 20 22:47:26 <sirkha_top> mickeyl: it seems like ICM is better to me, i'll have to try and install it and see what i can do
Aug 20 22:47:51 <mickeyl> yeah
Aug 20 22:48:08 <mickeyl> the architecture looks better to me
Aug 20 22:48:13 <mickeyl> but as it's very young, we have to see
Aug 20 22:48:18 <mickeyl> it didn't work here though
Aug 20 22:48:25 <mickeyl> i don't know whether it _needs_ hal to operate or not
Aug 20 22:48:33 <mickeyl> i don't want to reinvent either though
Aug 20 22:48:44 <sirkha_top> is needing hal good or bad?
Aug 20 22:48:48 <mickeyl> bad :)
Aug 20 22:48:51 <mickeyl> i don't like hal
Aug 20 22:48:58 <mickeyl> it scares me on embedded systems
Aug 20 22:49:02 <sirkha_top> ah
Aug 20 22:49:05 <sirkha_top> whys that?
Aug 20 22:49:22 <mickeyl> well, first it's not modular, it creates a shitload of device nodes and claims memory for each of those
Aug 20 22:49:29 <mickeyl> then it polls 
Aug 20 22:49:30 <mickeyl> baaaad
Aug 20 22:49:45 <mickeyl> and it's already deprecated... which doesn't help ;)
Aug 20 22:49:46 <sirkha_top> yeah, i can see that, lots of power going no where
Aug 20 22:50:46 <sirkha_top> there is also exalt
Aug 20 22:50:57 <sirkha_top> http://watchwolf.fr/wiki/doku.php?id=exalt
Aug 20 22:51:06 <sirkha_top> and i actually can *talk* to the developer of that
Aug 20 23:03:45 <sirkha_top> ok, i can't even find the connman source...
Aug 20 23:04:56 <sirkha_top> other than the git, that is
Aug 20 23:05:22 <sirkha_top> (ie no releases)
Aug 20 23:10:54 <sirkha_top> mickeyl: i'll try compiling connman, and then try playing with exalt, and write a comparison of all three
Aug 20 23:11:00 <sirkha_top> later
Aug 20 23:11:28 * mwester wonders what hal does anyway.  Beside issue alignment warnings, that is...
Aug 20 23:11:32 * sirkha_top needs the sleep before gouging his mind out with EE in 12 hours
Aug 20 23:20:23 <cjb> HAL mainly provides a dbus feed that apps (and policy daemons) can use to find out when devices change, battery level changes, screen rotates, special keyboard keys get pressed, things like that.
Aug 20 23:21:43 <cjb> It seems odd to want a dbus-based framework and then to not use HAL, but it certainly introducs some complexity.  Still, the Nokia tablets and OLPC use it heavily.
Aug 20 23:35:00 <abraxa_> cjb: Maybe they created a fork better suited for embedded devices?
Aug 20 23:37:49 <cjb> no, hal itself is pretty suited.  It's just a C program, and doesn't use much CPU or RAM.
Aug 20 23:38:15 <cjb> There have been different policy daemons depending on device, though.
Aug 20 23:39:01 <cjb> So, hald isn't actually supposed to make decisions about what to do in any way.  All it's doing is seeing (for example) that your device is no longer on external power, and broadcasting that.
Aug 20 23:39:27 <cjb> And then if you're on a desktop you can run gnome-power-manager and it takes that HAL feed as input and makes decisions about dimming the screen and things like this.
Aug 20 23:40:13 <cjb> And if you're on a Nokia or OLPC, there's a lightweight policy daemon called ohmd that's written in C and has a ridiculously small (96KB of RAM, I think?) footprint and makes similar decisions.
Aug 20 23:44:10 <abraxa_> cjb: Well, from what I remember, the parsing of the HAL rules takes a rather ridiculous amount of time on the Neo, which is one of the reasons why people want to see if gone
Aug 20 23:44:12 <abraxa_> it*
Aug 20 23:44:39 <cjb> Ah, yeah, that's ugly stuff.
Aug 20 23:44:58 <cjb> which distros run hald, then?  I don't think fso does.
Aug 20 23:45:14 <abraxa_> I don't know actually
Aug 20 23:50:09 <mickeyl> g'night
Aug 21 00:01:59 <rwhitby> morning
Aug 21 00:05:30 <rwhitby> aleix: saw your repo layout post
Aug 21 00:06:35 <rwhitby> aleix: how did the shr build go?
Aug 21 01:57:46 <rwhitby> Ken_Young: did mickey|zzZZzz contact you?
Aug 21 02:00:32 <Ken_Young> rwhitby, No, not yet.   I was thinking of sending him a first email if he doesn't contact me soon.   I've got lots of questions.
Aug 21 02:40:57 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03charlie 07specs * rfeae4c6796bf 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): [opreferences] Added GetProfiles method
Aug 21 02:40:57 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03charlie 07specs * r969713ff4d42 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): [ophoned] Adding the `Incoming` signal
Aug 21 02:40:58 <CIA-19> freesmartphone.org: 03charlie 07specs * r2dae11c2aa68 10/ (69 files in 9 dirs): Merge branch 'master' of ssh://git@git.freesmartphone.org/specs
Aug 21 02:55:09 <rwhitby> is 'charlie' here?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Aug 21 02:59:56 2008