**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jan 15 02:59:57 2009
Jan 15 03:00:02 * AntonTakk1 has never even seen an iphone for more than a few seconds
Jan 15 03:00:08 <AntonTakk1> jhass840: yeah
Jan 15 03:01:27 <jhass840> That sounds good to me, do you think you can fit all that text across the bottom of the screen?
Jan 15 03:01:27 <AntonTakk1> jhass840: possibly with an option to send an sms (formatted in plain language)  "wannt get togather on $date at $place)  etc
Jan 15 03:01:45 <AntonTakk1> i think so
Jan 15 03:01:47 <jhass840> that would be very cool
Jan 15 03:02:32 <quatrox> I just got an idea for the contact app. It should automatically prefill the number field with the network country code
Jan 15 03:02:46 <quatrox> saves you some typing
Jan 15 03:02:49 <quatrox> and it is easy
Jan 15 03:02:54 <jhass840> quatrox: Yes!
Jan 15 03:03:19 <AntonTakk1> aren't cointry codes only necesesary for out of country numbers?
Jan 15 03:03:21 <quatrox> great:)
Jan 15 03:03:28 <quatrox> yes
Jan 15 03:03:40 <quatrox> but you want to save all numbers with country code
Jan 15 03:03:53 <AntonTakk1> why not have it auto add it to the number to be dialed based on the country the contact is in?
Jan 15 03:04:15 <jhass840> True, because if you go oversees your contact book is useless
Jan 15 03:04:19 <quatrox> why?
Jan 15 03:04:19 <jhass840> I think that's what he means
Jan 15 03:04:42 <quatrox> jhass840: yes
Jan 15 03:05:26 <quatrox> I will see if I get time to make a little patch
Jan 15 03:05:27 <AntonTakk1> instead of prepending it to the phone number, have it say ok, i'm calling xyz, who is in canada, number = $Canada$Number
Jan 15 03:05:33 <jhass840> Well if I have in my phone 610-999-9999 and I go over to England and hit Call, I doubt the call will go through
Jan 15 03:06:31 <AntonTakk1> that way you don't confuse people who don't know about country codes
Jan 15 03:07:01 <jhass840> I see, so it will dial the country code but not display it
Jan 15 03:07:03 <AntonTakk1> cause a user can always delete usefull info in ignorance  :)
Jan 15 03:07:12 <AntonTakk1> yeah
Jan 15 03:07:26 <AntonTakk1> i don't imagine country codes change that often  ;)
Jan 15 03:08:00 <AntonTakk1> but maybe have a config for it (just in case)
Jan 15 03:08:27 <quatrox> AntonTakk1: Country codes does not change
Jan 15 03:08:52 <AntonTakk1> ok, so i don't need a config for it, just an array of a hash maybe
Jan 15 03:09:08 <AntonTakk1> s/of/or
Jan 15 03:09:39 <jhass840> Well, is there a way to automatically obtain this information.  (The freerunner doesn't do this yet) Phones automatically adjust the time based on what time zone you are in, so the phone must have some idea of where you are.  Would it be possible to have the phone recognize the fact that I am out of the US and add the proper country code while I am overseas?
Jan 15 03:09:53 <quatrox> I though that in the entry box where you type in the phone number, it could be prefilled with (+44)
Jan 15 03:10:04 <AntonTakk1> jhass840: i don't see why not
Jan 15 03:10:37 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: yeah, but what if you get a user who has no idea what +44 is and deletes it?
Jan 15 03:10:51 <mirko> DocScrutinizer: does not work :/
Jan 15 03:11:09 <mirko> DocScrutinizer: but i think it's more likely that's an individual problem
Jan 15 03:11:15 <quatrox> jhaass840: org.freesmartphone.GSM.Network.GetNetworkCountryCode
Jan 15 03:11:24 <jhass840> In other words, the phone should recognize where I am and say "I'm going to switch to overseas mode" and apply country codes to numbers in the US
Jan 15 03:11:33 <jhass840> oh okay
Jan 15 03:11:34 <mirko> DocScrutinizer: how can i test it? FSO-framework is just telling me "sim card not present"
Jan 15 03:11:51 <AntonTakk1> jhass840: or just have it always (silently) apply country codes
Jan 15 03:11:56 <DocScrutinizer> mirko: what U r talking about?
Jan 15 03:11:57 <jhass840> right
Jan 15 03:12:11 <jhass840> that's what I mean, do these things but do them quietly
Jan 15 03:12:29 <quatrox> jhass840: no... what if you want to dial a local number?
Jan 15 03:12:30 <mirko> DocScrutinizer: you asked me whether my UMTS card is now working or not after flashing the gsm to moko10
Jan 15 03:12:30 <DocScrutinizer> mirko: your UMTS sim?
Jan 15 03:12:33 <jhass840> I don't want to think about it at all
Jan 15 03:12:48 <jhass840> quatrox: Local in the country you are in?
Jan 15 03:13:03 <DocScrutinizer> mirko: so it's probably another problem
Jan 15 03:13:10 <quatrox> maybe it is better that your phone just asks if you want to do a local call when it finds out you are out of your home country???
Jan 15 03:13:31 <mirko> how can i trace it down to make sure it's (not) a hardware problem?
Jan 15 03:13:51 <AntonTakk1> i assume another code is required than +44 for international calls, right?
Jan 15 03:14:04 <jhass840> has anyone ever used a phone (not the freerunner) overseas before?
Jan 15 03:14:12 <jhass840> a cell phone at that
Jan 15 03:14:13 <AntonTakk1> not me
Jan 15 03:14:32 <quatrox> AntonTakk1 +44 is england
Jan 15 03:14:39 <quatrox> I guess
Jan 15 03:14:40 <AntonTakk1> ah
Jan 15 03:14:43 <AntonTakk1> ok
Jan 15 03:14:44 <quatrox> don't remember
Jan 15 03:14:58 <quatrox> +45 is denmark
Jan 15 03:15:09 <quatrox> +47 is norway
Jan 15 03:15:10 <quatrox> etc
Jan 15 03:15:25 <mirko> will go asleep now - but will stay online... - thanks a lot for your help - will write on the wiki-page tomorrow
Jan 15 03:15:36 <AntonTakk1> i'd say if you enter a phone number at the dial pad that matches [0-9],{7,10} dial it with the current country code prefixed
Jan 15 03:16:31 <quatrox> AntonTakk1: you should not add any prefix 
Jan 15 03:16:36 <quatrox> that is just confusing
Jan 15 03:16:44 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: is it just +xx, or is it like long distance 1+xx xxx-xxx-xxxx?
Jan 15 03:17:04 <quatrox> 1???
Jan 15 03:17:25 <quatrox> you have to dial 1 first?
Jan 15 03:17:32 <AntonTakk1> here in the us, to dial a number out of your area code is 1 $Area-xxx-xxxx
Jan 15 03:17:41 <jhass840> I'll be honest, I tried to make a call to my house from the UK and the process was very confusing.
Jan 15 03:18:11 <jhass840> Except from cell phones you don't need to dial 1 anymore
Jan 15 03:18:30 <AntonTakk1> jhass840: cause they do it for you w/o telling you  :)
Jan 15 03:18:42 <quatrox> from uk, you would dial: +1 area_code number
Jan 15 03:18:49 <quatrox> to get to us
Jan 15 03:18:52 <quatrox> no?
Jan 15 03:19:01 <AntonTakk1> dunno, never been to the uk
Jan 15 03:19:14 <AntonTakk1> is 1 the us's country code?
Jan 15 03:19:31 <quatrox> grrr... americans always do stuff their own way
Jan 15 03:19:34 <jhass840> I thought it was 011 or something
Jan 15 03:19:45 <quatrox> 001
Jan 15 03:19:51 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: everyone does  :)
Jan 15 03:20:05 <jhass840> oh
Jan 15 03:20:21 <quatrox> 00 means out of country
Jan 15 03:20:33 <quatrox> 1 is the country
Jan 15 03:20:42 <DocScrutinizer> us is 1, germany 49 e.g
Jan 15 03:20:45 <quatrox> 001 is the same as +1
Jan 15 03:20:53 <jhass840> Let's find someone who's actually used a cell phone overseas and let them explain the process to us, then we can just mimic that behavior
Jan 15 03:20:55 <rwhitby> +1 to get to use on any properly-working GSM network.
Jan 15 03:21:09 <rwhitby> anywhere in the world.
Jan 15 03:21:19 <rwhitby> s/get to use/get to USA/
Jan 15 03:21:19 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: use = us?
Jan 15 03:21:22 <AntonTakk1> ok
Jan 15 03:21:23 <DocScrutinizer> right
Jan 15 03:21:32 <AntonTakk1> that's easy then
Jan 15 03:21:33 <rwhitby> similarly, +61 to get to Australia.
Jan 15 03:21:47 <DocScrutinizer> +49 for germany
Jan 15 03:21:49 <AntonTakk1> as long as your contact list has an entry for the person's country
Jan 15 03:22:09 <rwhitby> people should always have a full number starting with +NN in their contact list
Jan 15 03:22:19 <rwhitby> else they cannot use that contact list outside of their locality
Jan 15 03:22:28 <quatrox> exactly
Jan 15 03:22:39 <DocScrutinizer> +886 for taiwan
Jan 15 03:22:54 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: that is wht i'm thinking let the phone app figure it out for them, no-one i know has +xx in their contact lists
Jan 15 03:23:13 <rwhitby> AntonTakk: everyone I know does have +xx
Jan 15 03:23:13 <quatrox> wrong
Jan 15 03:23:53 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: they all put +xx in front of the phone numbers that they put in their cell phones?
Jan 15 03:23:56 <rwhitby> it depends whether you social circle has ever travelled outside of their own locality
Jan 15 03:24:13 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jan 15 03:24:14 <rwhitby> AntonTakk: when someone calls me, the gsm provider tells me the number in that format
Jan 15 03:24:25 <AntonTakk1> hrm
Jan 15 03:24:34 <DocScrutinizer> again yup
Jan 15 03:24:44 <quatrox> :)
Jan 15 03:24:52 <AntonTakk1> i don't think my cell provider dous, corse i have never had a cell phone call with anyone outside the us
Jan 15 03:24:56 <DocScrutinizer> though some idiots forget the "+"
Jan 15 03:25:05 <rwhitby> AntonTakk: think of it as an address - you can leave the country off the address only if the parcel is not going overseas.
Jan 15 03:25:20 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: i understand why and that it is needed
Jan 15 03:25:23 <DocScrutinizer> germany T-com D1 for example
Jan 15 03:25:47 <jhass840> Well, we need to research this and figure out what the standard is (if any)
Jan 15 03:26:04 <rwhitby> the GSM standard is +<country code>
Jan 15 03:26:12 <rwhitby> there is no question about that
Jan 15 03:26:15 <quatrox> yes
Jan 15 03:26:28 <DocScrutinizer> standard is "+<countrycode><areacode><number>"
Jan 15 03:26:29 <rwhitby> as for what individual people will do, there is no standard
Jan 15 03:27:25 <DocScrutinizer> there's even a maximum of sth like 14 digits
Jan 15 03:27:26 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: what i am saying is why not let the phone handle prepending the country code? /me adds a contact for xyz, sets country to germany, and puts in the number, now any time i tell the app to call that person, it says "ok, number is xxx-xxx-xxxx, and country is germany, so+49, fake_fso_dial_command(+49xxxxxxxxxx);
Jan 15 03:27:26 <quatrox> so back to my proposal: lets prefill the number entry in the contact list with country code from GetNetworkCountryCode()
Jan 15 03:27:37 <jhass840> well, if that's the standard used by the phone companies then I don't see why we should deviate from that.  However, if we make it an optional feature then I suppose it doesn't matter
Jan 15 03:27:48 <rwhitby> AntonTakk: If I live in Australia, travel to US, and enter a contact there, what should the phone do?
Jan 15 03:28:26 <DocScrutinizer> AntonTakk1: that's exactly what windoze does. You need to specify your country and area code
Jan 15 03:28:27 <rwhitby> if you want to fill in the +49 when the person says it's germany, that's fine.
Jan 15 03:28:45 <rwhitby> but do it at storage time, so the number is stored with the +49 in it.
Jan 15 03:28:55 <rwhitby> do not do it at a later call time.
Jan 15 03:29:00 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: why?
Jan 15 03:29:15 <AntonTakk1> what diference does it make?
Jan 15 03:29:39 <quatrox> AntonTakk1: if you ever travel, you know why
Jan 15 03:29:42 <rwhitby> I may live in Australia (+61), but have a GSM number that is a USA number (+1)
Jan 15 03:29:48 <DocScrutinizer> so windoze replaces any 0171 with +49171, and if i live in 0911 it replaces 23456 with +4991123456
Jan 15 03:29:54 <rwhitby> so my address country and phone number are not related
Jan 15 03:30:08 <rwhitby> I may have phone numbers in three different countries.
Jan 15 03:30:36 <AntonTakk1> ah, and the contact book only has one country field  :)
Jan 15 03:30:52 <rwhitby> exactly. and that country field is only sometime related to the phone number.
Jan 15 03:30:53 <jhass840> how about this, the default setting is that the complete number must be typed, but we add the auto-complete feature as an option that user's can enable
Jan 15 03:31:07 <rwhitby> jhass840: make it auto-complete on entry, not on call.
Jan 15 03:31:15 <rwhitby> so it is always stored with +NN
Jan 15 03:31:39 <DocScrutinizer> rwhitby: yup, best practice
Jan 15 03:31:53 <AntonTakk1> jhass840: i understand what they are saying, for it to only autocomplete on call, you would need a country entry per phone number in the address book, which is very unlikely to happen
Jan 15 03:32:05 <rwhitby> then if it guess wrong, I can fix it at entry time.
Jan 15 03:32:18 <DocScrutinizer> rwhitby: though windoze capi/tapi does it different to handle abreviated entries correctly
Jan 15 03:32:45 <rwhitby> and you're putting windoze up as a good reference standard ? ;-)
Jan 15 03:33:00 <quatrox> lol
Jan 15 03:33:13 <quatrox> standard???
Jan 15 03:33:28 <quatrox> they even break their own standards
Jan 15 03:33:39 <DocScrutinizer> rwhitby: if someone sends a vcard to you, you also had to care about this. but it probably is best to do it this way, as you never know which countrya setting the sender had used
Jan 15 03:34:09 <DocScrutinizer> so windoze way is broken by design
Jan 15 03:34:33 <rwhitby> at the point where the vcard is stored into this app, the user should be prompted to accept the proposed country code guess or to correct it.
Jan 15 03:34:42 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: perhaps have a config for "home country" that gets set on first gsm network connection ever, and is only manual after that, for people who never travel internationally, if there is no extended number in the phone number field, prepend the home country
Jan 15 03:34:42 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jan 15 03:34:55 <jhass840> AntonTakk1: Yeah, I was hoping the would be a way around that
Jan 15 03:35:07 <DocScrutinizer> rwhitby: that's the way to go
Jan 15 03:35:35 <rwhitby> AntonTakk: if you're only going to have local numbers, and never call or be called internationally, then just ignore the whole problem.  but you're in the minority if you're thinking like this.
Jan 15 03:35:38 <quatrox> well
Jan 15 03:35:41 <AntonTakk1> jhass840: i can't think of one, unfortunately
Jan 15 03:35:43 <quatrox> I travel a lot
Jan 15 03:35:56 <quatrox> and call local calls in the countries
Jan 15 03:36:19 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: well, i personally have never made an international cell call
Jan 15 03:36:21 <quatrox> so when I store a number, it is usually from a contact which lives in the country I am visiting
Jan 15 03:36:40 <DocScrutinizer> real annoyance is idiots like german telekom not sending the leading "+"
Jan 15 03:36:56 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: oh, yeah, current gsm country would completely be a valid guess for a new contact  :)
Jan 15 03:36:58 <quatrox> they don't?
Jan 15 03:36:59 <quatrox> grrr
Jan 15 03:37:10 <rwhitby> AntonTakk1: then unfortunately you should not be designing a contacts storage schema for an international phone ;-)
Jan 15 03:37:11 <DocScrutinizer> when crossing network to O2 for example
Jan 15 03:37:26 <quatrox> AntonTakk1: yes:)
Jan 15 03:38:07 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: technically, it's "for me" if someone wants to improve it, that's their business  ;)
Jan 15 03:38:20 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox: there's some issue when sending SMS or even getting calls trans-net
Jan 15 03:38:26 <DocScrutinizer> here in D
Jan 15 03:38:27 <rwhitby> current GSM country, if able to be overridden by the user at storage time, is a good guess.
Jan 15 03:39:04 <rwhitby> current GSM country at call time is not a good guess, since you could easily ring the wrong person without noticing.
Jan 15 03:39:32 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: yeah, i was thinking all phone number fields would have a "Country" buton right before the number field
Jan 15 03:39:41 <quatrox> DocScrutinizer: My cousing (which lives in a different country) used to complain that I didn't reply on her SMS'es, but now it works
Jan 15 03:39:43 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: i was thinking that for hand dialed numbers only
Jan 15 03:39:49 <rwhitby> AntonTakk1: they already do - its the number after the + ...
Jan 15 03:39:52 <quatrox> cousin
Jan 15 03:40:06 <rwhitby> hand-dialed are always in the current GSM country scope
Jan 15 03:40:09 <DocScrutinizer> rwhitby: I agree, we shouldn't accept non-fully-qualified tel-numbers at storage time
Jan 15 03:40:16 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: no, in the ui, make it pop up a little country selection box
Jan 15 03:40:29 <jhass840> You know, If you're used to making calls overseas already then chances are that you're also used to entering the complete number.  Of course, it might be nice if you were able to call all the numbers from your home country as you normally would
Jan 15 03:40:34 <rwhitby> AntonTakk1: at storage time, yes.  at call time, no.
Jan 15 03:40:48 <AntonTakk1> rwhitby: that's what i'm saying
Jan 15 03:41:01 <rwhitby> if I'm typing a number in manually, then I know what I'm doing and don't want a computer to second guess me.
Jan 15 03:41:08 <quatrox> no popups pleasse
Jan 15 03:41:16 <AntonTakk1> dialer just has numbers and an empty field
Jan 15 03:41:17 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox: I also sent out a few sms without leading "+" due to this issue
Jan 15 03:42:39 <quatrox> I have forgotten the country code so many times that I will never ever save a number without it
Jan 15 03:42:44 <jhass840> for example, in the US all my phone calls are made using 10 digit numbers.  Since I live here, I have no reason to know the full country code so it would be nice if I could leave the US and continue the practice.  However, any international numbers I get should be 'complete'
Jan 15 03:43:25 <DocScrutinizer> jhass840: that's exactly the windoze way
Jan 15 03:43:33 <AntonTakk1> new contact input displays: $TYPE Phone: [Country] [ empty text field ], where country defaults to the current gsm country, but touching the "button" bring s up a country selection
Jan 15 03:44:08 <quatrox> :)
Jan 15 03:44:30 <AntonTakk1> that seem reasonable?
Jan 15 03:44:35 <quatrox> yes
Jan 15 03:44:47 <DocScrutinizer> nope
Jan 15 03:44:59 <rwhitby> only if it then stores the +NN as part of the number, and doesn't show the country box from then on.
Jan 15 03:45:02 <AntonTakk1> DocScrutinizer: why not?
Jan 15 03:45:02 <DocScrutinizer> country selection list is too long
Jan 15 03:45:19 <rwhitby> DocScrutinizer: but there's only one country - the USA .... ;-)
Jan 15 03:45:24 <DocScrutinizer> it's basically 1000 entries
Jan 15 03:45:24 <AntonTakk1> DocScrutinizer: i'd break it down by reigon
Jan 15 03:45:29 <AntonTakk1> oh
Jan 15 03:45:31 <AntonTakk1> 1k?
Jan 15 03:45:45 <AntonTakk1> hrm
Jan 15 03:45:47 <quatrox> but the first part sounds great
Jan 15 03:45:48 <DocScrutinizer> taiwan is 886
Jan 15 03:45:59 <quatrox> prefix with current country
Jan 15 03:46:06 <DocScrutinizer> dunno whether there are even 4digit countrycodes
Jan 15 03:46:16 <AntonTakk1> yeah, maybe that is the only way
Jan 15 03:46:17 <quatrox> no
Jan 15 03:46:19 <quatrox> never
Jan 15 03:46:43 <rwhitby> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1#Officially_assigned_code_elements
Jan 15 03:46:49 <AntonTakk1> $TYPE Phone: [ empty text field ]
Jan 15 03:46:59 <quatrox> DocScrutinizer: but in US, they have +1 and then a number for the state too
Jan 15 03:47:11 <quatrox> then a local area number
Jan 15 03:47:16 <rwhitby> same everywher
Jan 15 03:47:17 <rwhitby> e
Jan 15 03:47:18 <quatrox> and then the phone number
Jan 15 03:47:34 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: the state number is not needed
Jan 15 03:47:43 <quatrox> ohh
Jan 15 03:47:47 <DocScrutinizer> heh, to bring a little fun to this beasty discussion: some of my entries look like "*31#+4991130838545"
Jan 15 03:47:51 <AntonTakk1> +1-Area-xxx-xxxx
Jan 15 03:47:59 <rwhitby> DocScrutinizer: nice - carrier selection?
Jan 15 03:48:10 <DocScrutinizer> to mark this particular number for forwarding my own number when i call
Jan 15 03:48:17 <quatrox> Doc: you forgot the # at the end
Jan 15 03:48:21 <rwhitby> ah, privacy too.
Jan 15 03:48:22 <AntonTakk1> nice
Jan 15 03:48:38 <DocScrutinizer> nope i didn't forget anyrhing
Jan 15 03:48:44 <quatrox> ohh
Jan 15 03:49:13 <AntonTakk1> does gsm accept a comma (i believe) as a pause in dialing, like plain old at modems do?
Jan 15 03:49:23 <DocScrutinizer> others look like #31#091130838545. these are the persons I don't want ever see my number
Jan 15 03:49:34 <quatrox> here I must do *31#+4712345678#
Jan 15 03:49:43 <DocScrutinizer> duh
Jan 15 03:49:44 <quatrox> ahh
Jan 15 03:49:50 <DocScrutinizer> which country???
Jan 15 03:49:53 <jhass840> DocScrutinizer: I apologize if this is a rude assumption, but how do you dial local numbers in your own country (assuming it is other than the US)
Jan 15 03:50:15 <quatrox> norway
Jan 15 03:50:55 <quatrox> local numbers can be dialed with or without country code
Jan 15 03:50:59 <DocScrutinizer> on celphone I can dial a "0-171-123456" or a "+49-171-123456" assuming 171 is a carrier preselect
Jan 15 03:51:00 <quatrox> does not matter
Jan 15 03:51:26 <AntonTakk1> carrier preselect?
Jan 15 03:51:45 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox: yup, but due to nature of cellphone you always need to use the areacode
Jan 15 03:52:01 <quatrox> we don't have that any more
Jan 15 03:52:09 <quatrox> not in norway
Jan 15 03:52:11 <DocScrutinizer> AntonTakk1: 179 is O2 GSM-prvider/carrier
Jan 15 03:52:43 <DocScrutinizer> you could also use 911 for nuremberg where I'm living
Jan 15 03:52:45 * AntonTakk1 isn't that familiar with how cell networks work
Jan 15 03:52:51 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jan 15 03:53:06 <DocScrutinizer> worldwide
Jan 15 03:53:17 <DocScrutinizer> if I'm right
Jan 15 03:53:19 <quatrox> what is world wide?
Jan 15 03:53:28 <AntonTakk1> er
Jan 15 03:53:38 <DocScrutinizer> you need areacode on cellphones
Jan 15 03:53:52 <AntonTakk1> if i dial 911 here the police are going to show up at my door
Jan 15 03:53:58 <quatrox> here we only have country number and phone number
Jan 15 03:54:09 <jhass840> you need area code all the time in the US
Jan 15 03:54:10 <quatrox> no such thing as area code
Jan 15 03:54:26 <quatrox> we had area codes 10 years ago
Jan 15 03:54:30 <DocScrutinizer> though 15years ago you didn't need "areacode" of your ofm gsmprovider if you call another person in same gsmnet
Jan 15 03:54:53 <rwhitby> a long time ago, a single digit was enough to call someone ...
Jan 15 03:55:06 <quatrox> :)
Jan 15 03:55:15 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: things got interesting when denver got a second area code that is for the same physical area
Jan 15 03:55:22 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, expanding telnumbers is a really funny topic :-)
Jan 15 03:55:24 <AntonTakk1> but it has calmed down now
Jan 15 03:56:01 <gurugentoo> I believe houston has 3 that are considered "local" calls
Jan 15 03:56:07 <AntonTakk1> nice
Jan 15 03:56:19 <jhass840> I still think that people shouldn't have to add anything to phone numbers from their home country when they call from overseas.  Otherwise, you should
Jan 15 03:56:36 <AntonTakk1> can't tie a string between tin cans and toss one to my neighbor w/o dialing an area code  ;)
Jan 15 03:57:34 <AntonTakk1> jhass840: that's what i was thinking of the home country config for
Jan 15 03:57:35 <jhass840> whatever that windoze way Doc was talking about, that seems like the only rational thing to do
Jan 15 03:57:46 <jhass840> right
Jan 15 03:57:52 <quatrox> no
Jan 15 03:58:00 <rwhitby> jhass840: that should be the fall-back position for numbers that don't have a +
Jan 15 03:58:14 <rwhitby> but the app should encourage people to enter the numbers in full for storage.
Jan 15 03:58:15 <quatrox> no
Jan 15 03:58:16 <DocScrutinizer> jhass840: so you need exactly what win does. analyze nmber at dialtime and prefix with any missing part (country / area) if not already present
Jan 15 03:58:42 <rwhitby> quatrox: there ya go, there is no sensible default for numbers without +
Jan 15 03:58:48 <jhass840> AntonTakk1: and, how about if you set that the first time you boot your phone.  Make it part of the SHR config
Jan 15 03:58:57 <AntonTakk1> i don't see any way to prefix area code w/o a contact to pull it from
Jan 15 03:59:03 <quatrox> and what if you are in a different country and want to  dial someone you know there?
Jan 15 03:59:20 <quatrox> then it makes sense that you don't add country code
Jan 15 03:59:25 <AntonTakk1> true
Jan 15 03:59:33 <DocScrutinizer> rwhitby: not only missing "+", windoze also checks for area prefix by looking for leading "0" (or whatever you say is ara-escape)
Jan 15 03:59:33 <rwhitby> quatrox: then your stored number for them should have the country code, but manual dialling doesn't need it.
Jan 15 03:59:46 <quatrox> so windoze would call your home coutry
Jan 15 04:00:10 <quatrox> hmm
Jan 15 04:01:09 <AntonTakk1> if we are requiring a country code in any contact, then it should be ok to send hand dialed numbers to your home country, i would think
Jan 15 04:01:16 <AntonTakk1> or maybe make that a config
Jan 15 04:01:23 <quatrox> no
Jan 15 04:01:24 <quatrox> no
Jan 15 04:01:44 <Dave> :|
Jan 15 04:01:47 <AntonTakk1> :if i don't dial a country code, send it to [ home | local ]
Jan 15 04:01:48 <quatrox> they should be to the country you are in
Jan 15 04:01:56 <quatrox> because that is the standard way
Jan 15 04:02:14 <Dave> joerg, ja, that sucks, I often find myself having to prepend phonenumbers with lots of zeroes
Jan 15 04:02:17 <jhass840> AntonTakk1: No, I meant set your home country during the first boot configuration
Jan 15 04:02:32 <AntonTakk1> jhass840: that would be a separate config
Jan 15 04:02:44 <quatrox> grrr
Jan 15 04:02:46 <quatrox> why
Jan 15 04:02:49 <AntonTakk1> and not first boot, first gsm registration
Jan 15 04:03:03 <quatrox> just ask the gsm which country you are in
Jan 15 04:03:08 <quatrox> it is that simple
Jan 15 04:03:20 <quatrox> if you used an old phone
Jan 15 04:03:31 <quatrox> you know that without prefix, it dial local
Jan 15 04:03:38 <quatrox> no matter where you are
Jan 15 04:03:40 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: why are you against the phone remembering the country of the first gsm registration if it can be manually changed or turned off?
Jan 15 04:04:00 <quatrox> it is confusing
Jan 15 04:04:08 <quatrox> unless we have a good gui
Jan 15 04:04:40 <quatrox> ohh
Jan 15 04:05:29 <quatrox> but it is ok if you are out of the country and not using country code, that the phone ask you if it should be a local call or to your home country
Jan 15 04:05:32 <DocScrutinizer> config:: |area prefix:"0" | intnl prefix: "00" | area code: "0911" | countrycode: "0049" | implicit knowledge of algo: "'+' == country prefix" | algo: inspect number for leading single "0", if missing prepend with areacode, inspect result for leading "00" or "+", if missinf prepend with "" and countrycode. (all this done at dial time)
Jan 15 04:06:13 <quatrox> DocScrutinizer: we do _not_ have area code in norway, so that field must be optional
Jan 15 04:06:33 <DocScrutinizer> s/country/international/g
Jan 15 04:06:33 <bzzbot> DocScrutinizer meant: config:: |area prefix:"0" | intnl prefix: "00" | area code: "0911" | internationalcode: "0049" | implicit knowledge of algo: "'+' == international prefix" | algo: inspect number for leading single "0", if missing prepend with areacode, inspect result for ...
Jan 15 04:06:46 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: no, you missed statement of a config for which to use for hand dialed numbers
Jan 15 04:06:54 <AntonTakk1> not a dial time popup
Jan 15 04:07:08 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox: so leave it empty
Jan 15 04:07:43 <quatrox> :)
Jan 15 04:09:04 <AntonTakk1> jhass840: also, this is not an shr app
Jan 15 04:09:20 <AntonTakk1> this is a single app to be a today screen, calendar, messages and contact app
Jan 15 04:09:21 <DocScrutinizer> so when you are dialing 123456 it becomes +49-911-123456, if you dial 0911-123456 the same, and if you dial 0049-911-123456 it may or may not be replaced by +49-911-123456
Jan 15 04:09:32 <jhass840> I know, that's why I corrected myself by leaving it out after the first time I said it
Jan 15 04:09:46 <AntonTakk1> oh, sorry, didn't notice that
Jan 15 04:09:54 <AntonTakk1> _awy_ to much going on  :)
Jan 15 04:09:54 <jhass840> It's fine
Jan 15 04:09:57 <AntonTakk1> way*
Jan 15 04:10:34 <quatrox> DocScrutinizer: looks like a good soluition
Jan 15 04:10:35 <jhass840> yeah, my brain is short circuiting just thinking about all this stuff
Jan 15 04:11:13 <DocScrutinizer> now you only need to care about numbers starting with an action code like "*31#", which you need to cut away before processing number
Jan 15 04:11:25 <AntonTakk1> me too, plus i just learnt a bunch more about using elementary  :)
Jan 15 04:11:49 <AntonTakk1> DocScrutinizer: i thought the cell network processed those?
Jan 15 04:12:04 <jhass840> DocScrutinizer: Will this work in all countries, especially the ones not represented in this discussion?
Jan 15 04:12:09 <quatrox> DocScrutinizer: what about *#0000# ?
Jan 15 04:12:17 <DocScrutinizer> yup, it does. but they spoil your algo i sketched before
Jan 15 04:12:20 <quatrox> for resetting languages, etc
Jan 15 04:12:43 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox: hrhrhrrr :D
Jan 15 04:12:46 <AntonTakk1> DocScrutinizer: what is the max number of digits between * and # ?
Jan 15 04:13:19 <DocScrutinizer> there's no default or RFC for that AFAIK
Jan 15 04:13:27 <AntonTakk1> oh, great
Jan 15 04:13:45 <AntonTakk1> so if the dialed number starts with * we count in till we find #
Jan 15 04:14:02 <quatrox> or *
Jan 15 04:14:23 <AntonTakk1> put that in a string, move the rest to a new string, process it, re-prepend it, and hand it off to fso
Jan 15 04:14:29 <DocScrutinizer> you may say everything leading at the number containing a nondigit needs to be skipped by processing and instead passed to the network unchanged
Jan 15 04:14:42 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jan 15 04:14:48 <quatrox> :)
Jan 15 04:14:52 <DocScrutinizer> exactly
Jan 15 04:14:58 <AntonTakk1> doesn't sound *to* hard
Jan 15 04:15:06 <quatrox> nope
Jan 15 04:15:12 <DocScrutinizer> no it's just an annoyance
Jan 15 04:15:14 <quatrox> it should be duable
Jan 15 04:15:56 <DocScrutinizer> ok, a little "we want more" for you ;)
Jan 15 04:16:06 <quatrox> so, my next question: should this be handled by the contact app or by something more general?
Jan 15 04:16:12 <DocScrutinizer> there's "p" and "w" inside numbers
Jan 15 04:16:12 <AntonTakk1> i want the accelerometers to detect short, quick back and forth shakes and play a noise like a piece bouncing around in the case  ;)
Jan 15 04:16:42 <DocScrutinizer> like "5667p2"
Jan 15 04:16:46 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: dial string processed by the dialer
Jan 15 04:17:04 <AntonTakk1> you can have letters in phone numbers now?!
Jan 15 04:17:21 <quatrox> well, then all dialers must implement the same algorithm
Jan 15 04:17:28 <DocScrutinizer> to dial my provider's serviceline 5667, wait for connection plus 1 sec, then dial "2" to get my account balance
Jan 15 04:17:38 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: no, just need to document the algo they do use
Jan 15 04:17:43 <quatrox> lets make a lib
Jan 15 04:17:52 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: or convince mickey to make fso do it for us  :)
Jan 15 04:18:01 <quatrox> lol
Jan 15 04:18:12 <quatrox> a dbus call?
Jan 15 04:18:15 <quatrox> hahahaha
Jan 15 04:18:15 <AntonTakk1> no
Jan 15 04:18:37 <DocScrutinizer> ah, you actually can have characters in numbers! "A, B, C, D" are legal digits
Jan 15 04:18:38 <AntonTakk1> just pass fso the dial string, and fso parses all the standard capabilities
Jan 15 04:18:51 <quatrox> yes
Jan 15 04:18:51 <AntonTakk1> doc, and they mean?
Jan 15 04:19:13 <DocScrutinizer> 10, 11, 12, 13?
Jan 15 04:19:14 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: build it in to the dbus call to make a call
Jan 15 04:19:14 <quatrox> a-zA-Z0-9
Jan 15 04:19:44 <DocScrutinizer> in ISDN they are used to signal special function to the PBX
Jan 15 04:20:09 <AntonTakk1> DocScrutinizer: doesn't gsm allow the special chars that plain at modems to?, like a comma (iirc) for a 1 sec pause?
Jan 15 04:20:10 <quatrox> DocScrutinizer: no.. w = a|b|c
Jan 15 04:20:25 <quatrox> s/w/2/
Jan 15 04:20:26 <bzzbot> quatrox meant: DocScrutinizer: no.. 2 = a|b|c
Jan 15 04:20:31 <DocScrutinizer> lok for a decent modem manual, the "ATD" command. all is described there
Jan 15 04:20:42 <quatrox> ok
Jan 15 04:21:03 <AntonTakk1> i have one, bought a very nice isa 56k modem years back, still have them both, somewhere
Jan 15 04:21:21 <DocScrutinizer> AntonTakk1: (comma) yup
Jan 15 04:21:40 <DocScrutinizer> ut AFAIK that's not allowwed for GSM
Jan 15 04:21:49 <AntonTakk1> oh
Jan 15 04:22:06 <DocScrutinizer> well might depend on your gsm-modem
Jan 15 04:22:47 <AntonTakk1> does gsm have it's own equililents?
Jan 15 04:22:48 <quatrox> we can implement the feature (comma) elsewhere
Jan 15 04:22:52 <AntonTakk1> equivilents*
Jan 15 04:24:04 <quatrox> the framework can search for , and insert a pause
Jan 15 04:24:07 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: well, if we are going to basically implement a special feature, we should (i mho) make it sort of a second dialer, maybe prepend the contact number with && or something
Jan 15 04:24:39 <AntonTakk1> to indicate we want to use the special dialer for this number
Jan 15 04:24:49 <AntonTakk1> and make it able to do all sorts of things
Jan 15 04:25:08 <quatrox> why?
Jan 15 04:25:32 <DocScrutinizer> for POTS modems it had been easy, as all numbers were transmitted inband (DTMF or pulse). For GSM its different as number is transmitted out of band. So "1234,8" could be interpreted as "dial 1234, wait 1sec, then send a DTMF tone representing key-2"
Jan 15 04:25:38 <AntonTakk1> a contact that gets your checking account balance
Jan 15 04:25:54 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: or one to activiate the mic on your answering machine at home
Jan 15 04:26:37 <AntonTakk1> or what ever
Jan 15 04:26:46 <DocScrutinizer> AntonTakk1: (special dialer) naaaahhhhh!!! what's the rationale behind THIS?
Jan 15 04:26:58 <quatrox> yes, but we can still use comma as that is standard
Jan 15 04:27:10 <quatrox> no &&
Jan 15 04:27:12 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: if gsm allows it, as doc said
Jan 15 04:27:24 <quatrox> no
Jan 15 04:27:33 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox: exactly
Jan 15 04:27:35 <quatrox> let the framework handle it
Jan 15 04:27:56 <AntonTakk1> i'm thinking framework should handle standard stuff only
Jan 15 04:28:09 <AntonTakk1> er, with reguard to accessing the cell network
Jan 15 04:28:13 <DocScrutinizer> we should check if the calypso itself handles it
Jan 15 04:28:49 <quatrox> DocScrutinizer: why? The next modem might not support it
Jan 15 04:28:52 <DocScrutinizer> if it doesn't, the framework needs to take care
Jan 15 04:31:40 <AntonTakk1> i can see the benefit of implementing something like that in the framework, but it seems to me more important that the framework be rock solid first, fast second, and tricky third
Jan 15 04:32:31 <AntonTakk1> anyways, my main interest is a good solid phone ui
Jan 15 04:33:35 <AntonTakk1> thou i do want to theme the dialer so that is is semi-transparent with either real or fake text status info scrolling in the background  :)
Jan 15 04:34:33 <DocScrutinizer> so try current framework with things like "*#61#" and see what happens. To be solid, it needs to care about special cases from the beginning, or at least you (developer) need to lkeep in mind those cases exist and you want to care about it later
Jan 15 04:35:59 <AntonTakk1> DocScrutinizer: for stuff that is normally done on gsm, yes, but i was talking about almost a special dialer that interperets special strings or chars to do things like get bank account balance, listen to messages on home answering machine, etc
Jan 15 04:36:04 <DocScrutinizer> btw: Nokia was really good on this 1999, WinMoob6 doesn't get it right 2009
Jan 15 04:37:46 <AntonTakk1> anyways, night all
Jan 15 04:38:27 <DocScrutinizer> AntonTakk1: for my provider (O2-Germany) I *need* to be able to enter dialstrings like "*101#" to check and reload by account of prepaid sim
Jan 15 04:39:12 <AntonTakk1> DocScrutinizer: right, but i'd say most, or all gsm providers support some assortment of prefixes like *xyz#
Jan 15 04:39:48 <DocScrutinizer> AntonTakk1: yup, so our dialer-ap needs to cope with them
Jan 15 04:41:19 <DocScrutinizer> and there's no good reason for an escape sequence like "&&", as we shouldn't need a dialer-app that's not aware of those codes and how to process them
Jan 15 04:43:45 <AntonTakk1> DocScrutinizer: what i mean is, for example, a string like: 1112223333S3N1S2N1S2N1S2N$SOCIAL_SEC_NUMS2N$PINS2N1A3 to have the fr parse that according to defined rules, allowing it to: call my bank, go through the menus, enter my ssn, enter my pin, chose my checking account, and turn on the speaker so I can hear my checking account balance  :)
Jan 15 04:43:59 <AntonTakk1> something like THAT has no business being in the framework
Jan 15 04:44:44 <AntonTakk1> but i can see it being a very usefull feature
Jan 15 04:45:55 <DocScrutinizer> yup, but why then would you like to mark this number with "&&" to enable processing it. as you say theres no case this should be sent to network unprocessed
Jan 15 04:46:46 <DocScrutinizer> so we don't need to switch dialer's behaviour between two diferent modes
Jan 15 04:49:32 <DocScrutinizer> if the dialer doesn't support it with version 0.98, just add the processing in version 1.0. No need to mark the number as being something special
Jan 15 04:53:13 <AntonTakk1> make it a bit faster either way, no need to extensively process each string, if it starts with &&, send it to the special dialer, otherwise, continue as normal
Jan 15 04:53:32 <quatrox> no
Jan 15 04:53:42 <quatrox> we have enough time
Jan 15 04:54:33 <quatrox> it will not take more than a few milli seeconds
Jan 15 04:55:01 <AntonTakk1> so you'd rather process the living daylights out of a string to determine wheather is is a normal call or not rather than tag the special numbers with something?
Jan 15 04:55:06 <quatrox> and you don't dial x times a second
Jan 15 04:56:05 <quatrox> AntonTakk1: how many calls do you make per second?
Jan 15 04:56:27 <AntonTakk1> floats between 0 and 1  :)
Jan 15 04:57:01 <quatrox> if it was 100, I could understand your conserns 
Jan 15 04:57:42 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: but what i'm saying is if you prefix the "trick dialing" entries with something like &&, then there is an easy to program method of determining what to do next with the string
Jan 15 04:58:30 <quatrox> why? most of them will be prefixed with +, * or #
Jan 15 04:58:39 <quatrox> or 00
Jan 15 04:58:51 <quatrox> why also check for && ?
Jan 15 04:59:20 <AntonTakk1> did you read what i'd like to use it for up there^^ ?
Jan 15 04:59:35 <quatrox> yes
Jan 15 04:59:48 <AntonTakk1> that's why
Jan 15 04:59:58 <quatrox> but I think a comma does not take much time to find
Jan 15 05:00:12 <AntonTakk1> said nothing of a comma
Jan 15 05:00:36 <quatrox> you would need a break there
Jan 15 05:00:51 <quatrox> waiting for the other end to answer
Jan 15 05:01:00 <quatrox> before you dial your code
Jan 15 05:01:33 <AntonTakk1> that's what the S3 would parse to, (Slep(3))
Jan 15 05:01:37 <AntonTakk1> sleep*
Jan 15 05:01:50 <quatrox> anyway, I am not sure the sim supports long enough numbers
Jan 15 05:02:01 <quatrox> so it must be saved on the phone
Jan 15 05:02:14 <AntonTakk1> yeah
Jan 15 05:03:32 <quatrox> well, in your particular use case, maybe it is a good solution with &&. But that would not be general enough
Jan 15 05:03:45 <quatrox> so it could end up beeing a bad idea
Jan 15 05:04:16 <AntonTakk1> why? all it needs to do is be a string that is never used in a valid gsm dial string
Jan 15 05:04:23 <quatrox> all stuff should be processed one place
Jan 15 05:04:45 <quatrox> to make the code maintainable
Jan 15 05:05:11 <AntonTakk1> but see, all dialer apps don't have to have the same set of functionality
Jan 15 05:05:41 <AntonTakk1> particularly non-standard functionality
Jan 15 05:05:45 <quatrox> ohh... so you want this functionality only in the dialer?
Jan 15 05:05:50 <AntonTakk1> right
Jan 15 05:06:01 <quatrox> the dialer does not know when the other end picks up
Jan 15 05:06:05 <quatrox> does it?>
Jan 15 05:06:14 <AntonTakk1> the fso does, and it can tell the dialer
Jan 15 05:06:20 <AntonTakk1> i believe
Jan 15 05:06:32 <quatrox> that would make things slow
Jan 15 05:06:38 <AntonTakk1> how?
Jan 15 05:06:40 <quatrox> I guess
Jan 15 05:07:03 <quatrox> or your dialer needs to ask the framework all the time
Jan 15 05:07:08 <quatrox> poor framework
Jan 15 05:07:18 <AntonTakk1> i think it emits signals
Jan 15 05:07:29 <quatrox> maybe
Jan 15 05:07:34 <quatrox> I don't know
Jan 15 05:09:03 <AntonTakk1> app:call(number) fso:connected(number or w/e), app:(dum de dum de dum), app:send_dtmf(1), app:(dum de dum de dum)    etc
Jan 15 05:09:25 <quatrox> I just try to be skeptic, because I am not sure how things work or will work in the future
Jan 15 05:10:15 <AntonTakk1> sometimes i get an idea and know how (roughly) i want it to work before i know if it is possible
Jan 15 05:10:29 <quatrox> well
Jan 15 05:10:35 <quatrox> try to write the app
Jan 15 05:10:41 <quatrox> see if it works
Jan 15 05:10:47 <quatrox> :)p
Jan 15 05:11:02 <AntonTakk1> the other interesting (i think) thing i wanted to do is make an in car mode where the dialer uses flite to speak stuf to the driver
Jan 15 05:11:33 <quatrox> "turn left"
Jan 15 05:11:34 <quatrox> ?
Jan 15 05:12:04 <AntonTakk1> "incoming call from mom, answering in 3.....2.....1....*Beep*(alsa speakerphone profile activated)
Jan 15 05:12:17 <quatrox> nice
Jan 15 05:12:36 <AntonTakk1> i thought so  ;)
Jan 15 05:12:46 <quatrox> we got accelerometers
Jan 15 05:12:54 <quatrox> just break to hang up
Jan 15 05:13:01 <AntonTakk1> no
Jan 15 05:13:01 <quatrox> and speed up to answer
Jan 15 05:13:25 <quatrox> make a left to dial 1
Jan 15 05:13:30 <quatrox> haha
Jan 15 05:13:36 <AntonTakk1> have a pref, : in in car mode, auto answer calls [X]
Jan 15 05:13:47 <AntonTakk1> would be receive only
Jan 15 05:13:58 <AntonTakk1> unless someone figured out voice to text
Jan 15 05:14:14 <quatrox> voice dialing?
Jan 15 05:14:21 <AntonTakk1> why not?
Jan 15 05:14:24 <jhass840> do the accelerometers work yet?
Jan 15 05:14:25 <quatrox> it is figured out already
Jan 15 05:14:31 <quatrox> yes
Jan 15 05:14:34 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: not afaik
Jan 15 05:14:51 <jhass840> really? How do I enable them?
Jan 15 05:15:10 <quatrox> speach to text is much more complex than voice dialing
Jan 15 05:15:45 <quatrox> jhass840: try hexdump /dev/input/event2
Jan 15 05:16:00 <quatrox> and hexdump /dev/input/event3
Jan 15 05:16:28 <quatrox> I use them to rotate the screen as I rotate my phone
Jan 15 05:16:57 <AntonTakk1> true
Jan 15 05:17:30 <jhass840> I read something about the freerunner's accelerometers not being all that great
Jan 15 05:17:33 <quatrox> jhass840: install "rotate"
Jan 15 05:17:42 <quatrox> well
Jan 15 05:17:47 <quatrox> they are kind of buggy
Jan 15 05:17:50 <AntonTakk1> voice dialing can be as simple as record a wav, and if you "hear" a very similar wav again, call the contact associated with that wav
Jan 15 05:18:14 <quatrox> yes
Jan 15 05:18:40 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: looks like there may be a "filter" in future kernels to help stabalize their output
Jan 15 05:18:41 <raster> pants back on
Jan 15 05:18:43 <quatrox> just a simple frequency analysis
Jan 15 05:19:24 <quatrox> raster: good morning
Jan 15 05:19:28 <AntonTakk1> quatrox: thou i want a kitt voice profile for flite  ;)
Jan 15 05:20:25 <jhass840> quatrox: Does the hexdump thing ever stop?
Jan 15 05:20:27 <quatrox> well, I must do some work - thanks for the chat:)
Jan 15 05:20:41 <quatrox> ctrl c
Jan 15 05:21:00 <jhass840> oh, what was the point of doing that?
Jan 15 05:21:09 <AntonTakk1> welp, work in the morning, night all, thanks for the help (and patience) raster  :)
Jan 15 05:21:41 <raster> quatrox: boo
Jan 15 05:21:46 <quatrox> jhass840: doing what?
Jan 15 05:21:50 <raster> AntonTakk1:  no problems
Jan 15 05:21:52 <raster> :)
Jan 15 05:21:55 <jhass840> quatrox: hexdump?
Jan 15 05:22:06 <quatrox> to check if they work
Jan 15 05:22:23 <jhass840> oh
Jan 15 05:22:40 <jhass840> quatrox: Well, thanks for your help
Jan 15 05:22:56 <quatrox> no problem
Jan 15 05:23:10 <AntonTakk1> raster: if i might make a suggestion, docs.enlightenment.org/api could use edje and elementary apis, minor detail thou  :)
Jan 15 05:23:48 <quatrox> I should work now - take care
Jan 15 05:24:41 <AntonTakk1> and i should have been in bed for an hour and a half, have a good day/night all  :)
Jan 15 05:26:29 <raster> AntonTakk:  docs.e.org is actually a bit of a basket-case
Jan 15 05:26:36 <raster> not maintained or generated well
Jan 15 05:26:45 <raster> right now i kind of prefer the wiki
Jan 15 05:27:00 <raster> elementary has a page on the trac wiki i'm putting lots of stuff into :)
Jan 15 06:27:36 <mrmoku> raster: boo :-)
Jan 15 06:29:08 * raster is scared and hides
Jan 15 06:30:25 * mrmoku thought boo is a legitimate salutation in au :-)
Jan 15 06:31:11 <mrmoku> raster: do you have an opinion about this: http://pastebin.com/m599d3969 ?
Jan 15 06:33:31 <mrmoku> is it quickdev doing something illegal or an e bug...
Jan 15 06:34:22 <mrmoku> it showed up by pushing EFL_SRCREV to 38521
Jan 15 06:36:23 <raster> mrmoku: no idewa
Jan 15 06:36:28 <raster> that doesnt much help me actually
Jan 15 06:36:30 <raster> that bt
Jan 15 06:37:00 <mrmoku> raster: what would I have to do to track it down?
Jan 15 06:37:27 <mrmoku> I could switch back to the old EFL_SRCREV, build an image and see if it happens there...
Jan 15 06:37:38 <mrmoku> though i would prefer to go forward and not backwards ;)
Jan 15 06:38:02 <Ainulindale> Hey there
Jan 15 06:38:07 <mrmoku> Ainulindale: morning
Jan 15 06:39:34 <Ainulindale> Feel better after a good night sleep
Jan 15 06:39:48 <mrmoku> nice to hear :-)
Jan 15 06:46:56 <raster> mrmoku: something smells wrong there
Jan 15 06:47:03 <raster> somethng is from libpthread
Jan 15 06:47:07 <raster> so threads
Jan 15 06:47:14 <raster> are u accessing efl from 1 thread only?
Jan 15 06:48:07 <Ainulindale> raster: supposedly yes
Jan 15 06:49:58 <raster> i'd hope so
Jan 15 06:50:28 <Ainulindale> raster: we can't know, that's quickdev's code
Jan 15 06:50:32 <Ainulindale> It's like eating spaghetti
Jan 15 06:50:47 <mrmoku> but tasting less good ;)
Jan 15 06:50:54 <Ainulindale> (I'm evil, please don't repeat this :-p)
Jan 15 06:51:03 <raster> ahhhaha
Jan 15 06:51:11 <mrmoku> s/less good/worse/
Jan 15 06:51:12 <bzzbot> mrmoku meant: but tasting worse ;)
Jan 15 06:52:02 <raster> well the segv is inside some deep internals
Jan 15 06:52:18 <raster> maybe theres elm obj3ects swallowed and still part of a parent
Jan 15 06:52:20 <raster> or something
Jan 15 06:52:24 <raster> i really am not sure
Jan 15 06:52:30 <raster> i dont have the code
Jan 15 06:52:42 <raster> its quite a forest of callbacks and lists, accounting etc. etc.
Jan 15 06:58:44 * mrmoku is off for the office
Jan 15 06:58:55 <Ainulindale> Good luck, I'm there already
Jan 15 06:59:05 <mrmoku> raster: if you have any tip for tracing it down... just say it here... I will do it later
Jan 15 07:03:54 <Ainulindale> raster: any news on the dictionnary issue?
Jan 15 07:04:08 <raster> Ainulindale: havent looked - no news from florian
Jan 15 07:04:27 <Ainulindale> Ok thanks :-)
Jan 15 07:05:58 <raster> i'm busy with elementary and other things atm
Jan 15 07:06:03 <raster> kbd is taking a back seat for me
Jan 15 07:06:56 <Ainulindale> No problem, just trying to get some news :-)
Jan 15 07:12:29 <mw|> Might be that I found the source of python-etk build failures
Jan 15 07:12:44 <Ainulindale> Tell us :-)
Jan 15 07:13:00 <mw|> started a new build from scratch, so I will now the answer in about a day or two
Jan 15 07:13:47 <mw|> missing depencies, and    python setup.py build   temporary polls in the depencies inside the build of the package
Jan 15 07:13:57 <mw|> and it is this temporay install that fails to build
Jan 15 07:14:11 <Ainulindale> ok :-)
Jan 15 07:14:45 <mw|> so now I have added the missing depency I think, so now it should build those package from bitbuild instead from behind the scenes, so hopefully that works better
Jan 15 07:15:04 <mw|> atleast if it fails now, it should fail at the actually correct package
Jan 15 07:15:52 <Ainulindale> Good! :-)
Jan 15 07:15:53 <mw|> python setup.py should have an API for disabling the temporary installs, since the might origin from other sources than the one you intended to build against
Jan 15 07:17:08 <mw|> I'll report back when make image failes/completes... might take some while... pentium-3m 1Ghz with external usb 1.1 disk
Jan 15 07:17:26 <mw|> bbl, work
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jan 15 09:00:27 2009
Jan 15 09:44:14 <jipey> checks  or checked ?
Jan 15 10:36:37 * mrmoku is back in homeoffice :-)
Jan 15 10:48:13 <mrmoku> raster: I have a reproducable segfault in elementary_test... interested? ;)
Jan 15 11:15:32 <morphis> heyho
Jan 15 12:05:33 <Hire> boy
Jan 15 12:05:39 <Hire> i have a BAD problem
Jan 15 12:05:57 <Hire> i don't know why but I can't save the bootenv !
Jan 15 12:06:12 <PaulFertser_> Hire: oh, i thought you've ran out of pasta ;)
Jan 15 12:06:55 <Hire> today I ate pasta with ragù :/
Jan 15 12:07:41 <PaulFertser_> yucks :-/ another meat-eater ;)
Jan 15 12:07:55 <PaulFertser_> Hire: are you 100% sure you're booting the NAND u-boot?
Jan 15 12:08:48 <Hire> yeah
Jan 15 12:08:51 <Hire> I used neocon
Jan 15 12:08:57 <Hire> i botted into the console
Jan 15 12:09:10 <Hire> i did setenv bootdelay 10
Jan 15 12:09:24 <Hire> i see on printenv bootdelay=10
Jan 15 12:09:32 <Hire> i did saveenv
Jan 15 12:09:39 <Hire> poweroff the FR
Jan 15 12:09:50 <Hire> and i power on it i get bootdelay=5 :/
Jan 15 12:10:29 <PaulFertser_> Try to make a test env variable, just to make sure that it's not u-boot doing something special for bootdelay.
Jan 15 12:11:05 <Hire> that is a test env variable :D
Jan 15 12:11:08 <Hire> ah
Jan 15 12:11:11 <Hire> i see
Jan 15 12:11:14 <Hire> i will test it now
Jan 15 12:12:07 <PaulFertser_> And what printenv gives right after the saveenv (before rebooting)?
Jan 15 12:12:26 <Hire> nothing
Jan 15 12:12:30 <Hire> i tested with test 1
Jan 15 12:12:47 <Hire> but with reboot i don't get that variable on printenv
Jan 15 12:12:59 <Hire> yes, gives the right var
Jan 15 12:13:58 <PaulFertser_> Probably you need to construct the new environment from scratch. Try instructions from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader#What_if_I_borked_my_bootloader_environment_and_don.27t_get_a_prompt_anymore.3F
Jan 15 12:14:05 <PaulFertser_> BTW, why don't you use Qi?
Jan 15 12:14:26 <Hire> qi gives to me kernel panic
Jan 15 12:15:19 <quickdev> Hey
Jan 15 12:15:23 <PaulFertser_> Hire: Why? do you have your rootfs on one partition and the kernel on another?
Jan 15 12:15:24 <quickdev> morphis_, here?
Jan 15 12:15:30 <PaulFertser_> quickdev: Hi :)
Jan 15 12:15:35 <quickdev> hey PaulFertser_ 
Jan 15 12:15:43 <Hire> :/
Jan 15 12:15:47 <quickdev> building 'elementary.c_elementary' extension
Jan 15 12:15:47 <quickdev> gcc -pthread -fno-strict-aliasing -DNDEBUG -g -fwrapv -O2 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -fPIC -I/opt/e/include -I/opt/e/include/elementary -I/opt/e/include/eina-0 -I/opt/e/include/eina-0/eina -I/usr/include/dbus-1.0 -I/usr/lib/dbus-1.0/include -Iinclude -I/usr/include/python2.5 -c elementary/elementary.c_elementary.c -o build/temp.linux-x86_64-2.5/elementary/elementary.c_elementary.o
Jan 15 12:15:47 <quickdev> elementary/elementary.c_elementary.c:1:2: error: #error Do not use this file, it is the result of a failed Pyrex compilation.
Jan 15 12:15:48 <Hire> because it is so :/
Jan 15 12:15:51 <Hire> sadly
Jan 15 12:15:52 <quickdev> Does anyone know what's wrong here? 
Jan 15 12:16:11 <quickdev> deleting that file does not work - it's a re-compilation of elementary
Jan 15 12:17:21 <PaulFertser_> Hire: why don't you change that then? It's easy. Just move your kernel from the first partition to the /boot/uImage-GTA02 on the second one (or whereever your rootfs is). Or you may add correct root=/dev/... to the /boot/append-GTA02 on the partition where your kernel is.
Jan 15 12:18:41 <Hire> PaulFertser_: interesting
Jan 15 12:21:25 <PaulFertser_> Hire: the kernel image (or a symlink) should be called uImage-GTA02.bin
Jan 15 12:21:43 <morphis_> quickdev: wait a moment
Jan 15 12:23:13 <quickdev> morphis_, http://rafb.net/p/SUAETt34.html
Jan 15 12:26:33 <morphis_> quickdev: latest svn?
Jan 15 12:28:54 <quickdev> morphis_, yeah
Jan 15 12:29:06 <quickdev> I had that before - but I don't remember how to fix that
Jan 15 12:29:36 <mw|> quickdev: how did you make python dump the gcc commandline when building a python extension?
Jan 15 12:30:00 <quickdev> python setup.py build - nothing else ;)
Jan 15 12:30:00 <mw|> quickdev: I've only managed to make python dump all other stuff, except that
Jan 15 12:30:08 <morphis_> quickdev: I can compile without an error
Jan 15 12:30:17 <morphis_> quickdev: try 'make clean'
Jan 15 12:30:26 <mw|> quickdev: that doesn't display commands for me, but could be different from setup.py to setup.py how they configure things?
Jan 15 12:31:07 <mw|> package are you trying to build btw?
Jan 15 12:31:23 <quickdev> I'm trying to build it on my host
Jan 15 12:31:41 <mw|> python-etk? python-ecore?
Jan 15 12:31:59 <quickdev> python-elementary
Jan 15 12:33:03 <mw|> pyrex.... hmm "Pyrex is a language specially designed for writing Python extension modules. It's designed to bridge the gap between the nice, high-level, easy-to-use world of Python and the messy, low-level world of C. "
Jan 15 12:34:14 <mw|> quickdev: try to upgrade or downgrade pyrex on the host
Jan 15 12:35:15 <mw|> "Solution was to downgrade dev-python/pyrex:"  "dev-python/pyrex-0.9.6.4 breaks dev-python/glewpy-0.7.4 during compile ,   dev-python/pyrex-0.9.6.4 breaks dev-python/glewpy-0.7.4 during compile "
Jan 15 12:35:24 <mw|> are hits I get on pyrex and the error you pasted
Jan 15 12:35:44 <mw|>            "glewpy-0.7.4 builds fine with pyrex-0.9.6.1"
Jan 15 12:45:48 <quickdev> mw|, it already compiled once...that's the strange thing
Jan 15 12:50:18 <quickdev> mw|, same error with 0.9.6.1
Jan 15 12:54:52 <mrmoku_> raster: ping :-)
Jan 15 13:02:56 <quickdev> mrmoku, I was able to build it locally. Then I updated svn and the error was there. - On another box. That seems to be a python-elementary bug, doesn't it?
Jan 15 13:15:46 <mrmoku> quickdev: python? 
Jan 15 13:16:08 <quickdev> mrmoku, yes
Jan 15 13:16:42 <mrmoku> why python... what bug are you talking about?
Jan 15 13:17:22 <quickdev> mrmoku, found the wrong line
Jan 15 13:18:55 <quickdev> include/elementary/c_elementary.pxd: "cdef class Object()" should be "cdef class Object(evas.c_evas.Object)"
Jan 15 13:22:08 <mrmoku> quickdev: hmm, and i can crash the test app ;)
Jan 15 13:22:24 <quickdev> mrmoku, how? ;)
Jan 15 13:23:05 <mrmoku> open the 'Entry scrolled' Test and scroll down and up...
Jan 15 13:23:34 <Ainulindale> I bet that's quickdev's fault!
Jan 15 13:23:43 <Ainulindale> He's all over the place bothering raster :-)
Jan 15 13:24:00 <mrmoku> hehe, good theory :-)
Jan 15 13:34:04 <Dave> Hi Mrmoku :)
Jan 15 13:37:34 <mrmoku> Hallo Dave 
Jan 15 13:43:24 <Dave> :D
Jan 15 13:44:48 <mrmoku> quickdev: and morphis ran away ;)
Jan 15 13:45:33 <quickdev> mrmoku, yes, because he knew that it was his fault :)
Jan 15 13:45:34 <Dave> You probably scared him off
Jan 15 13:46:31 <AntonTakk> morning all
Jan 15 13:46:50 <Dave> Hello Mr Anton :)
Jan 15 13:47:13 <AntonTakk> hows it going?
Jan 15 13:52:34 <Dave> Pretty crappy :D
Jan 15 13:52:45 <AntonTakk> bummer
Jan 15 13:53:12 <tordo> morning!
Jan 15 13:53:20 * tordo is glad someone agrees it's morning
Jan 15 13:53:30 <AntonTakk> heh
Jan 15 13:58:24 <Dave> Yes, it most certainly is :P
Jan 15 14:18:21 <quickdev> morphis, bugfix for you :)
Jan 15 14:18:38 <morphis> oh fine
Jan 15 14:18:51 <quickdev> morphis, working for commerzbank?
Jan 15 14:19:02 <quickdev> include/elementary/c_elementary.pxd: "cdef class Object()" should be "cdef class Object(evas.c_evas.Object)"
Jan 15 14:19:16 <Dave> morphis! you live!
Jan 15 14:19:25 <morphis> quickdev: japp
Jan 15 14:19:42 <morphis> quickdev: will be fixed
Jan 15 14:20:35 <quickdev> morphis, that caused some pyrex errors :)
Jan 15 14:21:01 <morphis> quickdev, but not with every version
Jan 15 14:21:08 <morphis> with mine it works
Jan 15 14:22:21 <morphis> I will commit it later
Jan 15 14:22:35 <quickdev> don't know under what circumstances it happens
Jan 15 14:22:40 <Dave> :o
Jan 15 14:22:54 <Dave> pyrex?
Jan 15 14:26:38 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rd56a275536f7 10/framework/subsystems/oeventsd/ (action.py filter.py rule.py trigger.py): 
Jan 15 14:26:38 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: oeventsd: substitute super calls with the classic method of calling parent constructors
Jan 15 14:26:38 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: super is considered harmful, at least in the present implementation. DO NOT USE IT, especially
Jan 15 14:26:41 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: not not with multiple inheritance. Trust me, it's broken!
Jan 15 14:26:43 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r52e5614de3ce 10/framework/subsystems/oeventsd/ (action.py filter.py fso_actions.py rule.py trigger.py): oeventsd: add QueuedDBusAction and use it for all dbus methods triggered by actions
Jan 15 14:26:47 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rd871c761aca6 10/framework/patterns/tasklet.py: tasklet: what do we do if the generator vanishes?
Jan 15 14:28:09 <mickeyl> i have fixed 205 !!!!!!
Jan 15 14:28:14 <Dave> zomg!
Jan 15 14:28:16 <mickeyl> i'll now rest until next week
Jan 15 14:29:20 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * ra1216dcb9db4 10/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
Jan 15 14:29:20 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: oeventsd: Serialize dbus requests with a Queue. This (and removing a race in the RingToneAction)
Jan 15 14:29:20 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: should fix the problems with neverending vibration and audio ringtone on short calls (FSO ticket #205)
Jan 15 14:30:09 <Ainulindale> mickey_away: That's a good thing (latest)
Jan 15 14:30:13 <Ainulindale> (queues)
Jan 15 14:30:17 <Ainulindale> (that's what I was asking for lately)
Jan 15 14:30:44 <yoyo> helo
Jan 15 14:34:03 <Hire> PaulFertser_: with append how can I tell that rootfs is into the nand and not into the uSD?
Jan 15 14:34:05 * mrmoku will immediately start a new ULTRAunstable build ;)
Jan 15 14:34:24 <quickdev> mickey_away, congrats :) very important fix :)
Jan 15 14:35:51 <mw|> nice mickey_away :-)
Jan 15 14:36:18 <PaulFertser_> Hire: rootfstype=jffs2 root=/dev/mtdblock6 
Jan 15 14:36:28 <PaulFertser_> Hire: untested, but should work :)
Jan 15 14:36:46 <PaulFertser_> Hire: and add loglevel=8 to that as well for debugging purposes.
Jan 15 14:36:49 <Hire> PaulFertser_: thx :*
Jan 15 14:44:57 <Dave> oh god
Jan 15 14:45:07 <Dave> (mrmoku) ¬_¬
Jan 15 14:48:56 <mrmoku> Dave: hope you like ultra unstable stuff :-P
Jan 15 14:50:09 <Dave> oh hell no :P
Jan 15 14:50:14 <Dave> it's all broken and stuff :P
Jan 15 14:50:29 <Dave> It boots and you're like YAY YAY, then you try to do something and everything explodes
Jan 15 14:50:35 <Dave> and if you're very lucky, starts smoldering
Jan 15 14:51:15 <mrmoku> isn't that exactly what we all love :-)
Jan 15 14:52:03 <Dave> RASTER
Jan 15 14:52:41 <Dave> Shit like this infuriates me http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/0b0382bf15f2ef0cc8c9830bb1d50ccf.png
Jan 15 14:53:32 <mw|> hmm
Jan 15 14:53:33 <Dave> I like the (smaller icons?), improved realestate, but placing elipses for each name which cannot be completely displayed is doubley failicious. Just truncate!
Jan 15 14:53:48 <mw|> when I look at the screenshot Dave has, the first thing that comes to my mind is:
Jan 15 14:53:53 <mw|> remove the text under the icons
Jan 15 14:53:56 <Dave> e.g. Therefore we at least we have a clue what they are!
Jan 15 14:54:03 <Dave> mw :D
Jan 15 14:54:11 <mw|> and use texthints instead if you have double-click for open
Jan 15 14:54:14 <Dave> ja ja
Jan 15 14:54:20 <mw|> and no hints for single-click for open
Jan 15 14:54:41 <mw|> ja? norweigan for yes :-p
Jan 15 14:54:51 <AntonTakk> Dave: asjust the theme and drop the font size maybe?
Jan 15 14:55:45 <Dave> mw, ja :]
Jan 15 14:56:07 <Dave> Anton, yeah maybe that too, but it's definitely a separate issue!
Jan 15 14:56:17 <AntonTakk> well, yeah
Jan 15 14:56:25 <mw|> curious, where are you from Dave?
Jan 15 14:56:36 <AntonTakk> but i was suggesting that as a way to get rid of many of the elipsis
Jan 15 14:56:36 <Dave> mw, regrettably, US :|
Jan 15 14:57:32 <Dave> hvor i norge kommer du fra?
Jan 15 15:04:18 <Dave> mw, jeg vet du er der!
Jan 15 15:04:23 <Dave> :P
Jan 15 15:09:49 <mw|> I'm living on N�tter�y, just outside T�nsberg
Jan 15 15:14:18 <Dave> ah :]
Jan 15 15:14:45 * Dave throws snow at mw|
Jan 15 15:15:15 <mw|> not much snow here at the coast, just cold
Jan 15 15:15:33 <Dave> :[
Jan 15 15:15:53 <mw|> got norweigan family?
Jan 15 15:17:40 <Dave> thankfully no :P
Jan 15 15:18:10 <Dave> but several acquaintances, en min bestevenn :P
Jan 15 15:19:28 <mw|> so you actually tought norweigan from others around you? impressive
Jan 15 15:21:00 <mw|> bbl, get home from work, food etc.
Jan 15 15:22:12 <Dave> ok :)
Jan 15 15:22:18 <Dave> snakkes
Jan 15 15:54:34 <mrmoku> mickey_away: any idea about this: ImportError: No module named _md5
Jan 15 15:54:41 <mrmoku> while bitbaking frameworkd?
Jan 15 15:54:51 <Dave> rut roh
Jan 15 15:56:41 <mrmoku> Dave: still in norwegian mode?
Jan 15 16:02:15 <Dave> mrmoku, you have problem with that?
Jan 15 16:02:28 <Dave> :P
Jan 15 16:03:32 <mrmoku> Kein Problem... Nein :D
Jan 15 16:03:41 <Dave> :D
Jan 15 16:03:57 <mrmoku> hamna shida ;)
Jan 15 16:05:38 * tordo er norsk
Jan 15 16:06:02 <tordo> mrmoku: unaongea kiswahili? :o
Jan 15 16:06:46 <mrmoku> kidogo tu... na wewe?
Jan 15 16:06:58 <tordo> kidogo sana
Jan 15 16:07:19 <mrmoku> :-)
Jan 15 16:07:21 <tordo> niliishi nairobi miezi tatu
Jan 15 16:07:46 <tordo> (or something like that)
Jan 15 16:07:59 <mrmoku> rafiki yangu wana shamba karibu ngorongoro katika Tanzania
Jan 15 16:08:50 <mrmoku> I like that language :-)
Jan 15 16:09:21 <tordo> me too!
Jan 15 16:09:27 <tordo> i had to look up shamba though :(
Jan 15 16:09:44 <mrmoku> it is so logical
Jan 15 16:09:54 <tordo> im actually considering to go for an exchange year to Tanzania
Jan 15 16:10:02 <tordo> yes it is!
Jan 15 16:10:12 <tordo> and the people who speak it are really cool :)
Jan 15 16:10:20 <mrmoku> yep :-)
Jan 15 16:10:43 <tordo> so you learned it from a tanzanian buddy?
Jan 15 16:10:57 <spaetz> hi, is there anyone from FSO here?
Jan 15 16:11:08 <spaetz> fso-testing has conflicting  dependencies:
Jan 15 16:11:16 <spaetz> enlightenment requires libssl0.9.7 but fso-testing provides  only 0-9.8
Jan 15 16:11:22 <mrmoku> I've been on the farm of my friends for three weeks - nobody spoke english there ;)
Jan 15 16:11:29 <mrmoku> and then I got interested
Jan 15 16:11:36 <mrmoku> started learning a little
Jan 15 16:11:43 <tordo> :)
Jan 15 16:11:56 <mrmoku> actually thats where my nickname comes from :-)
Jan 15 16:12:16 <mrmoku> africans need vocals in the end
Jan 15 16:12:31 <mrmoku> the original nick has been mok and they made it moku
Jan 15 16:12:31 <tordo> nice!
Jan 15 16:13:08 <mrmoku> what have you been doing three months in Nairobi?
Jan 15 16:13:24 <tordo> i was supposed to be there for 6 months actually
Jan 15 16:13:46 <tordo> chistian exchange-school-thing
Jan 15 16:13:59 <tordo> so basically i was running around in a slum for 3 months
Jan 15 16:14:12 <tordo> not saving the world or anything, but just hanging around, getting to know people
Jan 15 16:14:25 <tordo> i've never learned so much in 3 months
Jan 15 16:14:41 <mrmoku> yeah, can figure that out :-)
Jan 15 16:14:46 <tordo> mhm :)
Jan 15 16:15:11 <tordo> i was there from october last year until newyear, and had to run away when the election violence started :(
Jan 15 16:15:27 <tordo> uh, last-last year
Jan 15 16:15:30 <tordo> crap, it's 2009 now
Jan 15 16:15:36 <mrmoku> time passes fast ;)
Jan 15 16:15:41 <tordo> yes!
Jan 15 16:16:07 <tordo> so i got 3 months in cameroon instead, where they speak french
Jan 15 16:16:09 * tordo hates french
Jan 15 16:16:19 <mrmoku> don't tell Ainulindale ;)
Jan 15 16:16:36 <tordo> i won't :)
Jan 15 16:17:37 * mrmoku would like to eat a samosa now
Jan 15 16:17:45 <tordo> aaaaaaah
Jan 15 16:17:49 * tordo seriously misses chapati
Jan 15 16:18:23 <mrmoku> the best thing though are the bananas... not like the crap you get here
Jan 15 16:18:30 <tordo> yeah
Jan 15 16:18:45 <tordo> and pineapples
Jan 15 16:19:08 <mrmoku> and mangos
Jan 15 16:19:09 <tordo> and the fact that people are nice and not cold bastards like here :(
Jan 15 16:19:20 <mw|> which step is python-etk again when make image from scratch? :-p
Jan 15 16:19:46 <mrmoku> mw|: hmm, don't remember
Jan 15 16:19:54 <tordo> mw|: norsk?
Jan 15 16:20:03 <mrmoku> a long way down me thinks
Jan 15 16:20:28 <mw|> 18 hours and I'm on 3112 of 7306   .. testing for python-etk bug from scratch, and my pc is soooooooooooooooooooooo slow
Jan 15 16:20:48 <mw|> tordo: jepp, stemmer det, Nøtterøy her, der da?
Jan 15 16:21:05 <tordo> mw|: fra Sauda, Rogaland, men studerer i Trondheim
Jan 15 16:21:24 <mw|> NITH ?
Jan 15 16:21:30 <tordo> NTNU datatek
Jan 15 16:21:41 <mw|> *dances around*
Jan 15 16:22:04 <mw|> jeg traff bra der ja
Jan 15 16:22:20 <tordo> :P
Jan 15 16:22:21 <mw|> quatrox who sometimes hangs here too is also norweigan
Jan 15 16:22:38 <tordo> nice
Jan 15 16:22:55 <mw|> Åsgårdstrand, small village that 50% belongs to Tønsberg and 50% belongs to Horten/Borre
Jan 15 16:23:06 <tordo> :D
Jan 15 16:23:16 <mw|> so half of the population can have ADSL broadband since their central is in the middle of Åsgrådstrand
Jan 15 16:23:39 <tordo> There's quite a few openmokoers around here in Trondheim
Jan 15 16:23:40 <mw|> while the rest can't since they belong to another town and thereby of historic reasons have another phone central too far away, ISDN only
Jan 15 16:23:57 <tordo> sounds like norway
Jan 15 16:24:20 <mw|> and his parents lives 10 meters from the boundary, so no ADSL.... two houses away
Jan 15 16:24:22 <Dave> NORGE?!
Jan 15 16:24:29 <tordo> Dave: ja!
Jan 15 16:24:32 <Dave> mw =[
Jan 15 16:25:29 <mw|> Dave: so, who are your norweigan friends? exchange students?
Jan 15 16:26:19 <Dave> no
Jan 15 16:28:16 <mw|> (reading the news, i probably see that using 2.6.17> explains a lot of what I have seen.. when building on my external slow disk, just doing stuff like ls can take 5-10 seconds ++ on that disk)
Jan 15 16:31:17 <mw|> quatrox <= norweigan :-p we take over the world
Jan 15 16:31:43 <quatrox> hehe
Jan 15 16:32:22 <mw|> Dave: so, how did your friendship with norweigans connect if not exchange students?
Jan 15 16:33:53 <Dave> hahaha
Jan 15 16:33:56 <quatrox> hei Dave:)
Jan 15 16:34:00 <Dave> no comment :]
Jan 15 16:34:08 <Dave> quatrox :D
Jan 15 16:34:27 <tordo> quatrox: hallå!
Jan 15 16:34:34 <mw|> Dave: you seduced one of us, didn't you?
Jan 15 16:34:45 * Dave hides
Jan 15 16:34:47 <quatrox> hei tordo
Jan 15 16:35:39 <quatrox> so many norwegians here... but I guess there are even more germans
Jan 15 16:36:02 <Dave> YES
Jan 15 16:36:44 * mrmoku feels better now ;)
Jan 15 16:37:47 <quatrox> mrmoku: is that because there is so many norwegians here?
Jan 15 16:38:58 <mrmoku> quatrox: you wanted to take over the world... so no :P
Jan 15 16:39:09 <quatrox> lol
Jan 15 16:40:57 <quatrox> mw|: I just ordered new speakers:)
Jan 15 16:41:20 <quatrox> now I only need an amplifyer and a tv
Jan 15 16:42:21 <Ainulindale> quatrox: which brand? (the speakers)
Jan 15 16:43:19 <quatrox> patos, they where on sale
Jan 15 16:44:10 <Dave> :D
Jan 15 16:45:59 <quatrox> mw|| You can get my old speakers if you want them... I don't really have enough space
Jan 15 16:48:27 <mw|> Dave: yes to that you seduced a norweigan (girl?) :-p still hang out?
Jan 15 16:49:14 <mw|> my system build python-evas :-p so we are closing in soon I hope
Jan 15 16:50:00 <Dave> :x
Jan 15 16:50:06 <Dave> haha
Jan 15 16:51:56 <mw|> quatrox: how much did you pay for them?
Jan 15 16:52:37 <Dave> Who whoa whoa
Jan 15 16:52:44 <Dave> for a minute there I thought you were talking to me, mw XD
Jan 15 16:53:11 <mw|> Dave: so you thought I though that you paid cash for the norweigan girl?
Jan 15 16:53:17 <Dave> right :P
Jan 15 16:53:21 <mw|> "post-order-bride"
Jan 15 16:53:21 <quatrox> mw| the new ones? Around 2k
Jan 15 16:53:32 <mw|> quatrox: size?
Jan 15 16:53:46 <quatrox> look at komplett.no
Jan 15 16:53:53 <quatrox> search for patos
Jan 15 16:54:09 <mw|> Dave: there are however males here in norway that import wifes from russion and some asian countries
Jan 15 16:54:16 <Dave> :o
Jan 15 16:54:18 <mw|> quatrox: mkII ?
Jan 15 16:54:53 <mw|> Dave: so, how did it end?
Jan 15 16:55:17 <quatrox> mw| they are listed to 1795
Jan 15 17:00:18 <quickdev> Hey
Jan 15 17:01:43 <quatrox> mw| they had 20 sets in stock yesterday and now it is 2 left
Jan 15 17:01:59 <quickdev> quatrox, 20 sets of what? :)
Jan 15 17:02:18 <quatrox> speakers
Jan 15 17:03:12 <Dave> wow
Jan 15 17:05:02 <mw|> for 1800 NOK including norweigan 25% VAT, that is acording to google $250
Jan 15 17:05:16 <mw|> cheap for norway, probably expensive other countries
Jan 15 17:06:13 <quatrox> mw| the price includes VAT
Jan 15 17:06:37 <quatrox> you only have to add an EE fee on 200 NOK
Jan 15 17:06:40 <mw|> quatrox: http://www.komplett.no/k/ki.aspx?sku=393839  this one?
Jan 15 17:06:56 <quatrox> yes
Jan 15 17:07:00 <mw|> aaah, correct
Jan 15 17:07:37 <mw|> wonder how long it takes until EE fee has to be included in the price here in norway
Jan 15 17:08:03 <mw|> Dave: in the US, is it common to list prices including or excluding VAT ?
Jan 15 17:08:15 <quickdev> I've got a logitech z-5500, hehe :)
Jan 15 17:08:44 <mw|> quickdev: more expensive I see
Jan 15 17:08:57 <Dave> VAT is never mentioned
Jan 15 17:09:03 <Dave> unless you just mean sales tax
Jan 15 17:09:07 <Dave> and usually that's never mentioned either
Jan 15 17:09:11 <mw|> probably louder sound, but lack a bit of middletone, but who cares if you just want movies and some random music
Jan 15 17:09:14 <Dave> until you buy it and it's like SURPRISE TAXES
Jan 15 17:09:34 <quatrox> they listed prices without sales tax in NY
Jan 15 17:10:11 <Dave> of course
Jan 15 17:10:12 <mw|> Dave: I like it here in norway then, all prices are listed including most taxes, except for shops that are for sells mainly to other companies, since the VAT rules are different then
Jan 15 17:10:27 <Dave> mw, yeah like in france, the tax is included in the price!
Jan 15 17:10:30 <Dave> which is rather nice
Jan 15 17:10:35 <Dave> that would never work here though :P
Jan 15 17:10:47 <mw|> agree.. it is nice to know the price you have to pay, when you look at the price
Jan 15 17:10:59 <Dave> america doesn't work that way :P
Jan 15 17:11:07 <Dave> we want to scam you as much as possible
Jan 15 17:11:12 <Dave> also deceive you into buying stuff
Jan 15 17:11:17 <Dave> :D
Jan 15 17:11:17 <mw|> therefor, I wonder how long it takes until EE fee (electrics waste recycle program) must be included
Jan 15 17:11:36 <mw|> Dave: starting to get some of that stuff here aswell
Jan 15 17:12:05 <Dave> hmm
Jan 15 17:12:35 <mw|> Dave: like... "bring home today, pay in 6 months**"        "**10% interest each month after the first 6 months, and a start fee of XXX"
Jan 15 17:12:44 <Dave> ~_~
Jan 15 17:12:49 <Dave> Mw, EVERYTHING is like that here.
Jan 15 17:12:56 <Dave> and I mean, everything!
Jan 15 17:13:04 <Dave> except bubblegum in the store :P
Jan 15 17:13:09 <Dave> and maybe fruits and vegetales :P
Jan 15 17:13:11 <Dave> vegetables
Jan 15 17:13:52 <mw|> or phones: "super phone, just $1 **" "** you are obligated to buy a FOO subscription from BAR for a minimum of 12 months"
Jan 15 17:14:29 <tmzt> Dave: don't you have to by a license for the comics?
Jan 15 17:14:33 <Dave> every single thing works like that in america
Jan 15 17:14:37 <mw|> and the subscription fee for those 12 months adds up to just buy the phone with no subscriptions about
Jan 15 17:14:38 <Dave> tmzt lawl
Jan 15 17:14:50 <Dave> Mw, have you ever SEEN mobile plans in america?
Jan 15 17:14:59 <Dave> or anything related to the mobile market here?
Jan 15 17:15:09 <mw|> Dave: costs money to retrieve SMS?
Jan 15 17:15:20 <Zorkman> dave: related to the mobile market: CHEAP GAS :p
Jan 15 17:15:36 <Dave> mw, of course
Jan 15 17:15:41 <Dave> it makes you want to cry
Jan 15 17:16:26 <mw|> that just sounds stupid
Jan 15 17:16:57 <Dave> EVERYTHING HERE IS STUPID AND EXPENSIVE
Jan 15 17:17:05 <Dave> (with the exception of gas)
Jan 15 17:17:07 <Dave> :P
Jan 15 17:17:25 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r2e9f4aea09be 10/framework/resource.py: resource: status at default is "unknown"
Jan 15 17:17:27 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r5646c67fd1c4 10/ (3 files in 3 dirs): 
Jan 15 17:17:27 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: ousaged: Add config option 'sync_resources_with_lifecycle' for specifying whether all
Jan 15 17:17:27 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: Resources should be disabled on "startup", "shutdown", "always" (default), or "never".
Jan 15 17:17:31 <Dave> even children here are stupid and expensive! :P
Jan 15 17:17:38 <Dave> unlike, say in asia :p
Jan 15 17:18:03 <bumbl> Dave: children are expensive anywhere
Jan 15 17:18:06 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: who's the requester if resources are never disabled?
Jan 15 17:18:17 <Ainulindale> ousaged?
Jan 15 17:18:23 <bumbl> and stupid - well that's the telly-education
Jan 15 17:18:51 <mw|> children are expensive here in norway aswell
Jan 15 17:19:03 <Dave> bumble, disagree
Jan 15 17:19:04 <Ainulindale> mw|: not if you sell/eat them
Jan 15 17:19:11 <Zorkman> Dave: the US is not THAT expensive when compared to europe
Jan 15 17:19:13 <Ainulindale> (and children aren't that expensive in France)
Jan 15 17:19:14 <mickeyl> Ainulindale: "never" refers to the lifecycle of frameworkd
Jan 15 17:19:19 <Ainulindale> (school is free, mostly)
Jan 15 17:19:23 <mickeyl> "never" = leave alone on startup and shutdown
Jan 15 17:19:26 <Dave> Zorkman, at least you get things back for your money in europe
Jan 15 17:19:27 <Zorkman> Dave: you guys earn more
Jan 15 17:19:31 <Dave> here you just get raped and raped
Jan 15 17:19:32 <mw|> kid in norway is estimated to cost atleast $139462 from birth to the age of 18
Jan 15 17:19:39 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: ok, got that
Jan 15 17:19:51 <Ainulindale> mickeyl: thought about the request process not the disabling :-)
Jan 15 17:19:54 <Dave> mw: try $867000 or something here
Jan 15 17:19:59 <mw|> that is just basic stuff like clothing, dipers and simple food I think
Jan 15 17:20:07 <Dave> though that includes college
Jan 15 17:20:08 <mickeyl> *nod* "disabled" was the false word. i should've said "touched" or "synced"
Jan 15 17:20:09 <mw|> school is free here though
Jan 15 17:20:13 <Dave> it's nearly 1million here for a kid
Jan 15 17:20:30 <Zorkman> Dave: http://www.babycenter.com/cost-of-raising-child-calculator
Jan 15 17:20:34 <mw|> collage should have been free in the US, aswell as a better health care
Jan 15 17:20:38 <Dave> oooh
Jan 15 17:20:42 <Dave> ROFL
Jan 15 17:20:45 <Dave> mw, go fish :P
Jan 15 17:20:52 <Dave> maybe in a different universe
Jan 15 17:20:56 <mw|> hehe
Jan 15 17:21:08 <mw|> "powered by SHR / openmoko"
Jan 15 17:21:13 <mw|> bbl, make dinner and eat
Jan 15 17:22:18 <bumbl> mw|: $130000 are really cheap
Jan 15 17:22:36 <Dave> yeah seriously
Jan 15 17:22:40 <Ainulindale> according to a french website
Jan 15 17:22:52 <Ainulindale> the cost of a child in france is 36 000 euros for the first one, 3000 for the second, 1500 for the third
Jan 15 17:23:03 <Ainulindale> that's dumb, I think it includes clothes & rooms
Jan 15 17:23:18 <Dave> wtf are you doing, selling them!?
Jan 15 17:23:31 <bumbl> nah 
Jan 15 17:23:45 <bumbl> France has a nice attitude to childrens
Jan 15 17:23:48 <bumbl> -s
Jan 15 17:23:52 <mw|> Dave: you reuse the clothing, and food gets cheaper if multiple people eat together
Jan 15 17:23:59 <Ainulindale> well it's free from primary school to high school
Jan 15 17:23:59 <bumbl> children are important so you get money
Jan 15 17:24:05 <bumbl> if you have more
Jan 15 17:24:07 <Ainulindale> college costs 300 euros a year
Jan 15 17:24:08 <Dave> OH
Jan 15 17:24:13 <Ainulindale> with social security
Jan 15 17:24:13 <Dave> 300!?
Jan 15 17:24:18 <Ainulindale> yes
Jan 15 17:24:25 <Dave> more like $30,000 :\
Jan 15 17:24:36 <Dave> fucking europeans ¬_¬
Jan 15 17:24:38 <Ainulindale> Dave: well, the USA made the choice to have mortgage to learn
Jan 15 17:24:41 <Ainulindale> +s
Jan 15 17:24:44 <Dave> yes :(
Jan 15 17:24:44 <bumbl> Dave: college is again free in Austria (before ~300€ per term)
Jan 15 17:24:48 <mw|> $30000 would be more expensive than a private school here I think
Jan 15 17:24:55 <Dave> mw, unsurprising ~_~
Jan 15 17:24:56 <Ainulindale> mw|: same here
Jan 15 17:25:00 <mw|> and I though norway was expensive
Jan 15 17:25:01 <Dave> US is crazy with money
Jan 15 17:25:05 <Dave> haha
Jan 15 17:25:07 <Ainulindale> private school of my girlfriend, 3000-4000 euros a year
Jan 15 17:25:10 <mw|> public services in norway are cheap
Jan 15 17:25:23 <Ainulindale> (best civil engineering school)
Jan 15 17:25:27 <Dave> my friend's college costs about $130,000 for 4 years
Jan 15 17:25:35 <mw|> even private schools get public funding per student
Jan 15 17:25:38 <Ainulindale> Dave: FYI
Jan 15 17:25:51 <Dave> wow
Jan 15 17:25:55 <Ainulindale> I took a mortgage of 15000 euros to live in peace for my 2 years of engineering school
Jan 15 17:25:57 <Dave> Ainulindale, I wish!
Jan 15 17:26:04 <Dave> lucky you
Jan 15 17:26:04 <Ainulindale> Mostly spent on beers & the rent of my flat
Jan 15 17:26:10 <Dave> Now no one can get loans here! :D
Jan 15 17:26:20 <Dave> Hooray for economy!
Jan 15 17:27:18 <mw|> I will never move to the US
Jan 15 17:27:24 <mw|> that is for sure
Jan 15 17:27:25 <Dave> Especially not now! :D
Jan 15 17:27:37 <Dave> Actually it's funny, because if you HAVE money it's a great time to be living here... (sort of)
Jan 15 17:27:43 <mw|> but again, buying houses and esates in the US are cheap now
Jan 15 17:27:46 <Dave> but most people are in economic crisis
Jan 15 17:27:49 <Dave> right!
Jan 15 17:27:55 <Dave> a friend of mine was saving up for that
Jan 15 17:27:58 <Dave> so now is the perfect time :D
Jan 15 17:28:01 <bumbl> mw|: here too (~350€/month for my school)
Jan 15 17:28:07 <Dave> also cars are like buy 1 get 1 free here now :P
Jan 15 17:28:18 <Dave> because the automotive industry is going under
Jan 15 17:28:26 <Dave> and banks are dying
Jan 15 17:28:28 <tordo> so this is the right time to know someone in the US who can buy and send stuff
Jan 15 17:28:39 <Dave> exactly
Jan 15 17:28:58 <bumbl> Dave: i thought you need a car? :p
Jan 15 17:29:16 <mw|> Dave, mich I bash.org you?
Jan 15 17:29:18 <mw|> might
Jan 15 17:31:00 <Zorkman> Dave: in belgium there was actually a buy one , get one free action :)
Jan 15 17:31:07 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r95bdf8518f1f 10/framework/ (resource.py subsystems/ousaged/resources.py): resource: on shutdown leave resources alone, if requested
Jan 15 17:34:05 <Dave> haha nice
Jan 15 17:34:07 <Dave> mw, certainly
Jan 15 17:34:13 <Dave> mw, It's been done many times
Jan 15 17:34:34 <mw|> hehe
Jan 15 17:34:49 <tordo> aargh.. why can't my quake live beta activation mail arrive? :<
Jan 15 17:35:30 <bumbl> mw|: url then
Jan 15 17:37:10 <mw|> http://bash.org/?877167
Jan 15 17:37:18 <mw|> pending moderation
Jan 15 17:37:52 <bumbl> bah
Jan 15 17:37:52 <Dave> huh?
Jan 15 17:37:56 <Dave> What did I say now? :)
Jan 15 17:38:09 <Zorkman> mw|: what did you quote?
Jan 15 17:38:12 <Dave> oh
Jan 15 17:38:19 <Dave> We'll see soon enough haha
Jan 15 17:38:24 <Dave> also since when does bash have post moderation
Jan 15 17:38:29 <Dave> active, anyway
Jan 15 17:52:25 <CIA-32> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r08fad37bcffe 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/gsm/const.py: ogsmd: const: add GSM number types seen "in the field"
Jan 15 18:25:01 <morphis> heyho
Jan 15 18:42:04 <yoyo> stupid think. how can I stop thread ?
Jan 15 18:42:44 <lindi-> yoyo: what thread?
Jan 15 18:43:07 <yoyo> lindi-: "class Monit(threading.Thread):" for example
Jan 15 18:43:35 <lindi-> yoyo: afaik there is no way in python
Jan 15 18:43:37 <yoyo> I made a object and then start()
Jan 15 18:43:51 <lindi-> yoyo: the thread itself needs to exit
Jan 15 18:44:43 <yoyo> lindi-: if function run(self) ends it shoud stop?
Jan 15 18:44:54 <lindi-> yoyo: yep
Jan 15 18:45:07 <yoyo> hyyy
Jan 15 18:45:10 <yoyo> ok 
Jan 15 18:45:10 <lindi-> i'm not too impressed by python threading
Jan 15 18:47:01 <bumbl> lindi-: it basically works for most things
Jan 15 18:47:17 <yoyo> ok
Jan 15 18:47:33 <yoyo> after ending function run() how can I restart it?
Jan 15 18:48:57 <yoyo> making start() one more time crash app
Jan 15 18:49:40 <yoyo> RuntimeError: thread already started
Jan 15 19:03:28 <budfive> how well do the wiki instructions on building shr work for people? It never seems to work correctly forme
Jan 15 19:05:52 <mrmoku> budfive: which problem is bugging you?
Jan 15 19:06:32 <mrmoku> mw|: how is your build going?
Jan 15 19:07:13 <budfive> it never completes, with errors in the middle. if i run it again, it gets further but errors out at a different point. Does it just work when you run it?
Jan 15 19:07:43 <mrmoku> hehe, I did many builds... and just one went from start to end without any error
Jan 15 19:08:00 <budfive> it doesn't consistently die at the same place. Could there be concurrency errors when using make -j?
Jan 15 19:08:05 <mrmoku> there is a lot of flux in all stuff... sometimes breaking builds
Jan 15 19:08:09 <budfive> are you using multiple-threaded builds?
Jan 15 19:08:46 <mrmoku> budfive: yep, but you have to set them via local conf. I have MAKEFLAGS set in my environment and have to unset that before using the makefile
Jan 15 19:09:55 <mrmoku> mw|: still eating I guess ;)
Jan 15 19:11:00 <budfive> yeah, i'm setting that in local.conf.
Jan 15 19:11:14 <mrmoku> should be fine (at least for me it works)
Jan 15 19:11:31 <budfive> it failed building libxxf86dga_1.0.2.bb, which was task 4086. doing it again, task 4086 is now ppp
Jan 15 19:11:58 <mrmoku> hmmm, any log?
Jan 15 19:12:04 <budfive> and i don't even see it doing the failed package again... 
Jan 15 19:12:12 <budfive> where's the log stored?
Jan 15 19:14:06 <budfive> there it goes. running "make image" again, immediately after failure has libxxf86dga_1.0.2.bb as task 4118. And it worked fine
Jan 15 19:14:37 <mrmoku> budfive: when it bails out look at the lines with ERROR: one of them goes like: see log in ....
Jan 15 19:14:46 <mrmoku> giving you the full path to the lockfile
Jan 15 19:15:45 <budfive> particular libxxf86dga_1.0.2.bb error in http://qr.ath.cx:5050/shrbuild.log
Jan 15 19:16:04 <budfive> ideas?
Jan 15 19:16:14 <dos1> can someone regenerate zhone package in repo? new version has very useful GPS improvements
Jan 15 19:16:43 <mw|> mrmoku: 3528 of 7306, still no �python-etk
Jan 15 19:16:50 <dos1> (not for me - i have it in my repo; but i just replied in some maillist topic about it and it will be nice to have it in official repo ;) )
Jan 15 19:16:53 <mw|> it just built etk though :-p
Jan 15 19:17:55 <mrmoku> mw|: what EFL_SRCREV?
Jan 15 19:17:55 <budfive> the error makes it seem like it couldn't download the source tarball properly. anybody heard of this ever happening?
Jan 15 19:18:45 <mw|> mrmoku: svnr37812
Jan 15 19:18:57 <mrmoku> budfive: yes, looks like the download interrupted and no I have'nt seen that yet
Jan 15 19:19:03 <mw|> what the name of the resulting ipk files
Jan 15 19:19:07 <mw|> what/was
Jan 15 19:19:47 <mrmoku> mwl: ah, ok
Jan 15 19:19:49 <budfive> mrmoku: ok. it's going to happen again before the build ends. i'll dig deeper then, i guess
Jan 15 19:20:25 <mw|> libxxf86dga_1.0.2.bb hmm, we use dga acceleration in mplayer?
Jan 15 19:20:43 <mw|> didn�'t there exists a glamo-accelerated mplayer? do we actually need DGA?
Jan 15 19:20:58 <mw|> (dga is tagged deprecated in several distroes)
Jan 15 19:21:18 <mw|> *well, back to painting while waiting for bitbake*
Jan 15 19:23:23 <mrmoku> brb
Jan 15 19:38:01 <mrmoku> mw|: IIRC you're building without paralellism?
Jan 15 19:39:48 <toggles_w> i'm building with a rhombus
Jan 15 19:40:32 <PaulFertser_> Hire: have you managed to start android with Qi?
Jan 15 19:41:03 <PaulFertser_> Hire: or you've solved your u-boot environment problems instead?
Jan 15 19:42:07 <Hire> yes yes
Jan 15 19:42:10 <Hire> i solved it :D
Jan 15 19:42:15 <Hire> nono, I used Qi
Jan 15 19:42:21 <Hire> now it seems to work
Jan 15 19:42:32 <Hire> however, android sucks. it is slow as the hell
Jan 15 19:43:03 <PaulFertser_> Hire: i shouldn't have helped you. Actually, i wouldn't if i knew you were going to look at android :P
Jan 15 19:43:25 <Hire> i am testing it for fun
Jan 15 19:43:40 <PaulFertser_> Hire: go test windows 7 ;)
Jan 15 19:44:13 <Hire> oh my god
Jan 15 19:44:15 <Hire> oh my god!
Jan 15 19:44:17 <Hire> never !
Jan 15 19:44:23 <bumbl> why?
Jan 15 19:44:31 <bumbl> windows 7 can be good
Jan 15 19:44:38 <dos1> PaulFertser_, Hire, bumbl: http://xkcd.com/528/
Jan 15 19:44:39 <dos1> ;)
Jan 15 19:45:13 <PaulFertser_> lol
Jan 15 19:45:27 <bumbl> dos1: haha
Jan 15 19:46:01 <bumbl> all the poor vista users can change to a better system and stop bugging me (there is still hope ;) )
Jan 15 19:47:30 <yoyo> vista wio
Jan 15 19:47:35 <yoyo> wioo ihaa
Jan 15 19:48:59 <dos1> yoyo: i think in english are other onomatopoeic words for it than in polish ;)
Jan 15 19:49:41 <yoyo> hyhyhy in polish it is to funny :)
Jan 15 19:49:50 <yoyo> to => so
Jan 15 19:52:12 <PaulFertser_> bumbl: i very much hope w7 will be the same failure as vista. But rumors say it's not so...
Jan 15 19:53:01 <tmzt> the new one is Mohave/Mojave
Jan 15 19:53:28 <tmzt> the spent a lot of money advertising it didn't they?
Jan 15 19:53:38 <tmzt> what's Windows 7?
Jan 15 19:54:05 <dos1> tmzt: Windows 7 is a next windows version, first after Vista
Jan 15 19:54:19 <dos1> beta is released publicly
Jan 15 19:54:53 <tmzt> this is the one with the scoring to test compatibility?
Jan 15 19:55:51 <bumbl> PaulFertser_: why?
Jan 15 19:56:19 <bumbl> i mean windows 7 is still windows ok
Jan 15 19:56:48 <PaulFertser_> bumbl: i want them to lose market share, obviously. Because they are evil enemies to me and to most free software users and developers.
Jan 15 19:57:18 <bumbl> but concurrence enlives the market and windows vista was no concurrence for current linux distributions
Jan 15 19:57:54 <bumbl> aero snap is a feature i want to see in kde/enlightenment
Jan 15 19:58:06 <tmzt> competition?
Jan 15 19:58:20 <PaulFertser_> That's not the kind of concurrence that helps anybody in the free software market. The major obstacle they make is closed protocols, and CLOSED drivers!
Jan 15 19:58:25 <dos1> bumbl: aero snap? what effect is it?
Jan 15 19:58:42 <dos1> alt+tab?
Jan 15 19:59:06 <bumbl> dos1: maximise window
Jan 15 19:59:46 <dos1> bumbl: hmm... what is happening when i maximise window on vista? i only remember darking taskbar and window decorations
Jan 15 20:00:20 <dos1> and i don't think that it's so important ;)
Jan 15 20:01:21 <bumbl> dos1: when you drag the window to the corner it maximises
Jan 15 20:01:49 <dos1> bumbl: i think compiz has this function
Jan 15 20:01:50 <bumbl> when you drag another window to the corner it maximises too (50:50 space share)
Jan 15 20:01:57 <dos1> hmm
Jan 15 20:02:02 <bumbl> and so on
Jan 15 20:02:05 <dos1> i didn't know about it
Jan 15 20:02:08 <bumbl> that's a nice feature i think
Jan 15 20:02:13 <dos1> looks nice
Jan 15 20:03:49 <bumbl> an os adaption would be nice ala window to the left maximise, window to the right (50:50), window to the top (50:25:25),..
Jan 15 20:05:24 <bumbl> useful on large resolutions
Jan 15 20:12:54 <mw|> mrmoku: without yes, parallell would slow things down very much.. using external usb (1.1) disk with 2.6.28 (which seems to suffer from a io-scheduler bug)
Jan 15 20:13:40 <mw|> xkcd windows-7 strip rocked! :-p
Jan 15 20:16:29 <mw|> oooh, I have python-ecore... I'm closing in
Jan 15 20:16:55 <mw|> (currently at task 3825 of 7306)
Jan 15 20:17:24 <PaulFertser_> bumbl: finally windows designers learned about tiling window managers. 
Jan 15 20:20:19 <PaulFertser_> bumbl: i think E has such a tiling layout module.
Jan 15 20:20:25 <mrmoku> mw|: hehe, you should get some nice 1TB SATA disk maybe ;)
Jan 15 20:22:26 <mw|> problem is the laptop
Jan 15 20:22:31 <mw|> it doesn't feature usb 2.0
Jan 15 20:22:54 <mw|> it has a firewire port though (smallest plug one)
Jan 15 20:35:46 <mirko> hey
Jan 15 20:36:04 <mirko> PaulFertser_: alphaone: still no luck after flashing my gsm-flash
Jan 15 20:36:12 <mirko> SimCardNotPresent-error
Jan 15 20:40:44 <bumbl> PaulFertser_: not as nicely implemented as this one
Jan 15 20:40:47 <bumbl> ion rocks :p
Jan 15 20:44:25 <budfive> bumbl: you use ion? never heard of anybody else using it 
Jan 15 20:46:43 <PaulFertser_> bumbl: i use ion3
Jan 15 20:47:02 <bumbl> budfive: nah
Jan 15 20:47:10 <PaulFertser_> mirko: are you using FSO? 
Jan 15 20:47:13 <bumbl> i have tested it
Jan 15 20:47:31 <bumbl> tiling rocks
Jan 15 20:47:55 <PaulFertser_> bumbl: true. So, what do you use?
Jan 15 20:48:01 <dos1> windows seven is still windows - http://img.gram.pl/upl/news/120090115112950.jpg
Jan 15 20:48:02 <dos1> ;)
Jan 15 20:48:11 <budfive> i'm using ion3 and am extremely happy with it. any of you tried the other tiling WMs (xmonad, ratpoison, wmii, awesome, etc)?
Jan 15 20:48:18 <PaulFertser_> mirko: have you tried your SIM in other 2G-only phones?
Jan 15 20:48:55 <bumbl> PaulFertser_: kde4-svn and enlightenment (when kde4-svn is broken or i feel like simplicity)
Jan 15 20:50:04 <PaulFertser_> budfive: i tried dwm in its default configuration. It'd be ok to have it like the simplest choice that could be easily installed on everyone's machine (imagine i go to friend and there's Gnome), but it's defaults conflict with emacs-keybindings, that are default in readline.
Jan 15 20:51:04 <bumbl> budfive: ion3 has a stupid licence
Jan 15 20:51:20 <PaulFertser_> bumbl: i can clarify why it is exactly like that.
Jan 15 20:51:34 <budfive> PaulFertser_: thank
Jan 15 20:52:20 <budfive> bumbl: tuomo (ion's author) is difficult. The WM is very good, though
Jan 15 20:52:33 <bumbl> PaulFertser_: you mean why it has that license?
Jan 15 20:52:43 <bumbl> i can guess why
Jan 15 20:53:08 <PaulFertser_> budfive: awesome is a flexible dwm that you can configure without recompiling. They both are "dynamic" and ion is "static". Different tiling concept.
Jan 15 20:53:57 <PaulFertser_> bumbl: Tuomo was so pissed of by clueless users who asked him for support of old versions that he had to change the license to stop those pointless complains.
Jan 15 20:54:00 <budfive> PaulFertser_: dynamic == the window sizes change on their own, without user input?
Jan 15 20:54:57 <PaulFertser_> budfive: yes, after a new window is shown, others change their size and/or position.
Jan 15 20:55:36 <budfive> PaulFertser_: have you tried actually using that for any length of time? It sounds like it wouldn't work very well, but i haven't tried it.
Jan 15 20:55:36 <bumbl> PaulFertser_: well the problem is - a problem that is in no repository hardly anyone uses
Jan 15 20:56:00 <PaulFertser_> BTW, Tuomo is a bicycle lover, he calls drivers "Benzin fascist" or smth :)
Jan 15 20:56:33 <budfive> tuomo's blog is pretty funny. he comes off as being angry with life. http://modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~tuomov/b/
Jan 15 20:58:01 <PaulFertser_> budfive: I've tried dwm for like 2 hours or so, it's ok. More usable than WIMP for sure. I have no problem compiling anything but the inability to use M-b (or smth like that) made me sad :)
Jan 15 20:58:16 <PaulFertser_> bumbl: you mean darcs? 
Jan 15 20:58:47 <mrmoku> anybody in here tried qwo?
Jan 15 21:00:03 <PaulFertser_> budfive: the funny thing is that he's often right imo. What he says about fonts, WMs, cars, e-mail, web seems to be very true and important to me.
Jan 15 21:00:40 <bumbl> PaulFertser_: i mean that for example there is no gentoo ebuild
Jan 15 21:01:03 <PaulFertser_> bumbl: because of the license change because of the stupid users.
Jan 15 21:01:17 <bumbl> i know
Jan 15 21:01:33 <bumbl> but without ebuild/package many users won't try
Jan 15 21:01:48 <budfive> PaulFertser_: Yeah, I agree with him mostly. Just a bit less bitter. :) And there's no ion on freebsd either, for the same reason
Jan 15 21:01:51 <bumbl> and it is not that revolutionary that one has to have it
Jan 15 21:02:38 <PaulFertser_> btw, Lua is fun and easy.
Jan 15 21:03:38 <bumbl> lua hehe
Jan 15 21:04:19 <bumbl> luaplayer is ported for that many platforms
Jan 15 21:06:54 <PaulFertser_> I think Tuomo is "true". Too bad he is so pessimistic, he must be depressed all the time.
Jan 15 21:08:38 * mrmoku is building a recipe for qwo
Jan 15 21:08:49 <budfive> PaulFertser_: are you in moscow?
Jan 15 21:09:04 <PaulFertser_> budfive: Yes
Jan 15 21:09:15 <PaulFertser_> budfive: Do you want me to do something here?
Jan 15 21:09:56 <mrmoku> PaulFertser_: open up the gas ;)
Jan 15 21:09:58 <budfive> PaulFertser_: nah, just curious. this whole enterprise seems to be very europe-centric. 
Jan 15 21:10:29 <bumbl> PaulFertser_: yeah open up the gas lanes
Jan 15 21:11:38 <PaulFertser_> bumbl: mrmoku the gas situation is pretty much fucked up. Our gazprom lies every second, so does Ukrain's. 
Jan 15 21:12:33 <bumbl> yep i know
Jan 15 21:12:43 <PaulFertser_> And nobody want to clearly elaborate every price number, every technical aspect. Just FUD everyday from the both sides.
Jan 15 21:12:46 <bumbl> our gas situation is soon fucked up too
Jan 15 21:13:22 <bumbl> because we have reserves for a month
Jan 15 21:14:27 <budfive> hahaha. segfault running task 7357 of 7360. 
Jan 15 21:14:43 <bumbl> hehe
Jan 15 21:15:02 <dos1> budfive: you're lucky ;D
Jan 15 21:15:06 * PaulFertser_ wonders why can't OE be as easy as gentoo?
Jan 15 21:15:46 <mrmoku> PaulFertser_: long time ago I used gentoo... and not for crosscompiling. Does that work nicely?
Jan 15 21:16:04 <budfive> yes. actually, this is good enough, since I just wanted a single .ipk. Is there a way to only build one ipk, instead of doing the whole thing?
Jan 15 21:16:20 <mrmoku> budfive: you can use the toolchain
Jan 15 21:16:39 <mrmoku> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Toolchain
Jan 15 21:16:41 <PaulFertser_> mrmoku: for cross-compiling? I think yes. But i see OE as very much Gentoo-like system. And every now and then many people see obstacles with it.
Jan 15 21:17:08 <budfive> yeah, but there're lots of dependencies and such. Can I tell OE to build ipk blah and all its dependencies?
Jan 15 21:17:10 <mrmoku> PaulFertser_: yeah, its quite similiar... but it's crosscompiling the stuff which complicates all a little
Jan 15 21:17:32 <mrmoku> budfive: should work... just do bigbake blah
Jan 15 21:17:37 <mrmoku> -g+t
Jan 15 21:17:58 <budfive> ok. i'll play with it. thanks
Jan 15 21:18:40 <mrmoku> so... nobody interested in qwo?
Jan 15 21:20:00 <sleipnir> can someone tell me how to enable GSM using cli-framework?
Jan 15 21:20:10 <budfive> mrmoku: i tried qwo briefly. wasn't interested in learning a new layout, so I stopped
Jan 15 21:20:27 <lindi-> sleipnir: d-feet is easy way to browse the available API and call it
Jan 15 21:20:35 <PaulFertser_> budfive: do you use qwerty?
Jan 15 21:20:39 <mrmoku> budfive: ic
Jan 15 21:20:51 <budfive> sleipnir: usageiface.RequestResource('GSM')
Jan 15 21:20:51 <budfive> gsmdevice.SetAntennaPower(1)
Jan 15 21:20:51 <budfive> gsmnetwork.Register()
Jan 15 21:23:31 <zogg_> how to change compiler path for distutils (now it uses gcc instead of arm-gcc version in toolset)? Or more generally, how to cross compile with distutils?
Jan 15 21:24:18 <sleipnir> budfive: thanks mate
Jan 15 21:25:15 <sleipnir> now the last thing i need to know is how to accept an incoming call in cli-framework
Jan 15 21:36:11 <ingi> Hi all, I haven't been able to build fso-gta02-testing-image because of following error:
Jan 15 21:36:11 <ingi> /usr/bin/ld: libcrypto.a(x86_64cpuid.o): relocation R_X86_64_PC32 against symbol `OPENSSL_cpuid_setup' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
Jan 15 21:36:11 <ingi> /usr/bin/ld: final link failed: Bad value
Jan 15 21:36:11 <ingi> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
Jan 15 21:36:11 <ingi> make[2]: *** [link_a.gnu] Error 1
Jan 15 21:36:13 <ingi> make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/ingi/moko/fso-testing/tmp/work/x86_64-linux/openssl-native-0.9.8j-r1/openssl-0.9.8j'
Jan 15 21:36:16 <ingi> make[1]: *** [do_linux-shared] Error 2
Jan 15 21:36:18 <ingi> make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/ingi/moko/fso-testing/tmp/work/x86_64-linux/openssl-native-0.9.8j-r1/openssl-0.9.8j'
Jan 15 21:36:21 <ingi> make: *** [libcrypto.so.0.9.8] Error 2
Jan 15 21:36:23 <ingi> + die oe_runmake failed
Jan 15 21:36:42 <ingi> I've tried to add '-fPIC' into the .bb-file but same results.
Jan 15 21:44:40 <mirko> PaulFertser_: nope, didn't try yet
Jan 15 21:46:31 <mw|> ingi: see the traffic on the mailinglist for the last 48 hours, it talks about that issue
Jan 15 21:46:53 <mw|> issue that appears on x86_64 only
Jan 15 21:47:55 <PaulFertser_> mirko: I think with the new firmware every sim that works in a regular 2G phones should work in FR. So, either try another sim or try this sim in another 2G phone. Anyway flashing is good because it improves compatibility and you can't know in advance what sim will you use next year.
Jan 15 21:48:41 <mirko> PaulFertser_: yeah, it was quite easy
Jan 15 21:49:12 <mirko> PaulFertser_: anyway, i thought any sim-card would work in the freerunner
Jan 15 21:49:46 <PaulFertser_> mirko: do you (as and-user) think that any effort should be put in a special rootfs to automate this process or do you consider it easy enough without it?
Jan 15 21:49:53 <mw|> isn't the issue with the free-runner and simcards the voltage?
Jan 15 21:50:00 <ingi> mw: Thanks, I read the mailingslists daily, must have missed it yesterday (to many beers...).
Jan 15 21:50:21 <PaulFertser_> mirko: any 2G-compatible sim in a 2G network, yes. But are you sure that's the case for you?
Jan 15 21:52:39 <mirko> PaulFertser_: Nope, thought any recent sim should be compatible
Jan 15 21:52:47 <mirko> for just using GSM
Jan 15 21:53:11 <PaulFertser_> mirko: Imagine you live in Australia where only 3G is common and 2G is rare ;)
Jan 15 21:54:20 <mirko> germany ;)
Jan 15 21:59:52 <kuzgun> I got an error in case of `make image` => http://pastebin.com/d6b023370  , any idea about whats wrong?
Jan 15 22:07:17 <mw|> that was a new one for me
Jan 15 22:07:31 <mw|> is the mentioned file intact, or is it empty?
Jan 15 22:07:39 <mw|> kuzgun: that was for you
Jan 15 22:10:42 <kuzgun> libframeworkd-phonegui_git.bb ??
Jan 15 22:10:45 <mw|> yes
Jan 15 22:10:51 <kuzgun> it exists and not empty
Jan 15 22:12:21 <mw|> pastebin the file?
Jan 15 22:15:57 <kuzgun> http://pastebin.com/d7233861e
Jan 15 22:17:49 <mw|> hmm, file is intact and correct
Jan 15 22:17:51 <mw|> wierd
Jan 15 22:18:31 <mw|> then I don't know
Jan 15 22:19:12 <Dave> mw!
Jan 15 22:20:11 <Dave> hvordan står det til med mine norske utenlandske venner?
Jan 15 22:20:15 <Dave> :]
Jan 15 22:22:27 <mw|> Dave: driver og titter på dbus-glib igjen mens jeg venter at python-etk skal bli bygget av make image
Jan 15 22:22:57 <mw|> Dave: brukt 23 timer og 30 minutter.... NOTE: Running task 4367 of 7306 (ID: 2304, /home/stian/moko/shr-testing/openembedded/packages/gstreamer/gst-plugins-bad_0.10.6.bb, do_install)
Jan 15 22:23:01 <Dave> hahahaha
Jan 15 22:23:11 <Dave> enjoy!
Jan 15 22:33:56 <mw|> ooooh
Jan 15 22:34:07 <mw|> it is attempting to build python-etk now
Jan 15 22:36:28 * mw| is crossing fingers
Jan 15 22:36:38 <mw|> s/is/are/
Jan 15 22:36:38 <bzzbot> mw| meant: it are attempting to build python-etk now
Jan 15 22:36:55 <mw|> it is, you are
Jan 15 22:37:25 <mw|> mwester: bzzbot doesn't understand /me and then later s/foo/bar
Jan 15 22:37:56 <mw|> f*** m*, it built, no stopping
Jan 15 22:39:03 <mw|> mickey|bbl !!!
Jan 15 22:57:21 <mw|> mickey|bbl: http://bugs.openembedded.net/show_bug.cgi?id=4992  <= python-etk build issue, final patch 
Jan 15 22:58:18 <mrmoku> mw|: congrats :-)
Jan 15 22:58:38 <mw|> mrmoku: fucking stupid error aswell when I figured it out
Jan 15 22:59:14 <mw|> I tried to explain it cause in the report
Jan 15 22:59:23 <mrmoku> and a relief for many of us... was always quite annoying to find the build in the morning unfinished because of python-etk :-)
Jan 15 22:59:31 <mw|> s/is/the/
Jan 15 22:59:58 <mw|> s/it/the/
Jan 15 22:59:58 <bzzbot> mw| meant: I tried to explain the cause in the report
Jan 15 23:00:08 <mw|> *starting to get tired* soon bed time
Jan 15 23:00:55 <mrmoku> me too...
Jan 15 23:01:55 * mrmoku is finishing the pythm patch and falling asleep after that :-)
Jan 15 23:02:17 <Dave> mrmoku!
Jan 15 23:02:32 <mrmoku> Dave!
Jan 15 23:02:53 * mw| *hugs* Dave
Jan 15 23:04:28 <mrmoku> mw|: I could add your patch to SHR... until its in OE...
Jan 15 23:10:07 <mickey|bbl> mw|: good find. i'll add it after the great python 2.6 merge tomorrow
Jan 15 23:12:09 <mw|> mrmoku: mickey|bbl is the maintainer, so I guess he is quick enough :-p
Jan 15 23:13:22 <dos1> what will be builded when i'll run bitbake world?
Jan 15 23:13:30 <dos1> all bb files?
Jan 15 23:16:20 <Dave> :D
Jan 15 23:16:58 <dos1> raster: is there a possibility to use x11 systray on illume?
Jan 15 23:17:48 <raster> dos1: nup.
Jan 15 23:17:54 <raster> dont support systray
Jan 15 23:17:58 <raster> the standard imho is garbage
Jan 15 23:18:14 <raster> implementations of it (on the app side) are often garbage too
Jan 15 23:18:45 <raster> do u want me to go  into details?
Jan 15 23:20:06 <dos1> hmm, i looked at pidgin buddies window which is always showed here on SHR
Jan 15 23:20:45 <mrmoku> mickey|bbl: I'm having problems building frameworkd
Jan 15 23:20:56 <mrmoku> it fails not being able to import _md5
Jan 15 23:21:03 <dos1> on 2007.2 i was using icon in systray to hide it and quickly check if there are new messages
Jan 15 23:21:44 <mrmoku> might be fixed with the python merge?
Jan 15 23:22:45 <dos1> raster: i was reading some time ago about disadventages of x11 systray protocol, when kde has problems with it on plasma
Jan 15 23:23:02 <dos1> s/has/had/
Jan 15 23:23:03 <bzzbot> dos1 meant: raster: i was reading some time ago about disadventages of x11 systray protocol, when kde had problems with it on plasma
Jan 15 23:23:04 <dos1> ;)
Jan 15 23:23:35 <mrmoku> raster: you are using EFL_SRCREV=38509, right? would you recommend that one?
Jan 15 23:24:10 <dos1> raster: but some legacy support i think would be nice :x
Jan 15 23:25:41 <raster> mrmoku: using it where?
Jan 15 23:25:57 <mrmoku> TMP/oe/patches
Jan 15 23:26:11 <raster> oh thats not always up to date
Jan 15 23:26:20 <raster> as such it works fine
Jan 15 23:26:33 <raster> but i am doing a round of builds for multiple targets
Jan 15 23:28:18 <raster> dos1: theres little to no room on the top shelf for these icons. they cause horrible visible blights
Jan 15 23:28:31 <raster> and will break on restarts of the wm
Jan 15 23:28:42 <raster> many will anyway
Jan 15 23:29:20 <raster> hmm
Jan 15 23:29:22 <raster> this is new
Jan 15 23:29:29 <raster> red-flashing led on my gta02
Jan 15 23:29:45 * mrmoku thinks raster has a kernel panic ;)
Jan 15 23:31:49 <raster> interestingly usbgadget comes up
Jan 15 23:31:53 <raster> then... panic!
Jan 15 23:32:57 <gurugentoo> I like the settings app on ultrasuperduperunstable
Jan 15 23:33:58 <raster> oooh
Jan 15 23:34:02 <raster> moved from neo1973!
Jan 15 23:34:17 <raster> hmm no
Jan 15 23:34:32 <raster> that happened a while back
Jan 15 23:34:46 <gurugentoo> probably
Jan 15 23:34:55 <raster> 2.6.28 is the current flavor?
Jan 15 23:35:05 <raster> used to be 2.6.24
Jan 15 23:36:20 <dos1> gurugentoo: thanks, that's my app :)
Jan 15 23:36:42 <gurugentoo> dos1: sweet
Jan 15 23:38:46 <gurugentoo> I just wish scrolling was smoother on these phones
Jan 15 23:38:58 <Dave> panick!
Jan 15 23:39:24 <gurugentoo> lol
Jan 15 23:39:31 <Dave> guru!
Jan 15 23:39:37 <raster> it can be
Jan 15 23:39:50 <raster> but you get limitations
Jan 15 23:39:58 <raster> eg u cant scroll over/under any background or overlay
Jan 15 23:40:03 <mrmoku> raster: yep, om kernel got bumped up to 2.6.28
Jan 15 23:40:04 <raster> (that doesnt scroll with it)
Jan 15 23:40:14 <raster> mrmoku:  seems thats in panic land
Jan 15 23:40:36 <tordo> raster: would it be possible to make a fast scrolling widget for when you don't need background or overlay?
Jan 15 23:40:46 <raster> tordo:  basically no
Jan 15 23:40:52 <raster> evas's infra doesnt allow for it
Jan 15 23:40:59 <raster> it always goes the long way
Jan 15 23:41:16 <gurugentoo> I actually prefer the page style flipping on zhone for contacts
Jan 15 23:41:27 <raster> ok
Jan 15 23:41:29 <raster> 2.6.24 is ok
Jan 15 23:41:51 <mrmoku> raster: you could bug andy ;)
Jan 15 23:41:58 <raster> no time
Jan 15 23:42:05 <raster> i need to get my shit reflashed and up to date for LCA
Jan 15 23:42:12 <raster> its always the case
Jan 15 23:42:23 <raster> i run into these kind of things when i have the least time for them
Jan 15 23:42:46 <raster> i'd be hooking up my debug board to at leats get serial console out for the panic
Jan 15 23:42:53 <raster> but... no time
Jan 15 23:43:11 <Dave> raster, did you get my complaint/comment/suggestion from this morning?
Jan 15 23:43:45 <raster> Dave:  nup
Jan 15 23:44:17 <raster> gurugentoo: the real problem is that evas re-renders for updates
Jan 15 23:44:21 <Dave> mw| and I were here, bashing on the desktop
Jan 15 23:44:22 <raster> scrolling isnt a shortcut blit
Jan 15 23:44:47 <raster> thats because evas allows for all sorts of stuff you'll never see in gtk for example
Jan 15 23:44:52 <raster> with layering and blending etc.
Jan 15 23:45:47 <raster> on all previous embedded devices i've used - screen size vs processing power and fb acces were well thought out
Jan 15 23:45:58 <raster> ैक्षछैफथ तहे गता०२
Jan 15 23:46:02 <raster> टहेरे ्ब ाचचेसस िस रेाललय सलोट
Jan 15 23:46:05 <raster> errr
Jan 15 23:46:09 <raster> excep thte gta02
Jan 15 23:46:17 <raster> where processor is really weenie
Jan 15 23:46:21 <raster> disk io is nasty slow
Jan 15 23:46:27 <raster> fb access is abysmal
Jan 15 23:46:32 <raster> and the number of pixels is HUGE
Jan 15 23:46:47 <raster> they conspire to make the perfect storm
Jan 15 23:46:56 <gurugentoo> so...dump scrolling
Jan 15 23:46:59 <raster> or in my view the perfectly slow and clunky device
Jan 15 23:47:13 <raster> its a real exception to the rule
Jan 15 23:47:31 <raster> and i am not going to code around what is fundamentally just a bad platform choice
Jan 15 23:47:38 <Dave> it's a real clunker!
Jan 15 23:47:44 <raster> as i have lots of other platforms to worry about - where it works like a charm
Jan 15 23:47:59 <raster> my treo6750 is a nice balance
Jan 15 23:48:05 <Dave> panny panny panny
Jan 15 23:48:07 <raster> even at 312mhz it outshines the gta02 @ 400
Jan 15 23:48:15 <raster> because its only 320x320
Jan 15 23:48:23 <raster> also fb is built-in so its fast access
Jan 15 23:48:36 <raster> pixel-for-pixel it performse better in benchmarks
Jan 15 23:48:42 <raster> and it has almost 1/4 the pixels to handle
Jan 15 23:48:45 <Dave> treo treo treo
Jan 15 23:48:53 <gurugentoo> so you're saying live with it basically
Jan 15 23:48:54 <raster> i have 2 omap3 boards here
Jan 15 23:49:03 <Dave> hot
Jan 15 23:49:06 <raster> 1 of them i currently have imaged
Jan 15 23:49:17 <raster> and these absolutely scream smooth and sexy
Jan 15 23:49:27 <Dave> raster, do you have cases for either of them?
Jan 15 23:49:28 <raster> with efl without special changes
Jan 15 23:49:35 <raster> Dave:  just boards on my desk
Jan 15 23:49:39 <Dave> Ah, okay
Jan 15 23:49:43 <raster> with lots of wires plugged into them
Jan 15 23:49:56 <raster> gru basically i look at it that way
Jan 15 23:49:57 <Dave> raster, have you seen any of the third-party cases have made? Some of them make it look REALLY sexy!
Jan 15 23:50:06 <raster> gta02 is a small run device thats an exception
Jan 15 23:50:09 <raster> i "live with it"
Jan 15 23:50:21 <raster> as i am not required to make a livingof selling it
Jan 15 23:50:31 <raster> if i were and i was allowed the power
Jan 15 23:50:37 <raster> i'd have canned the produce early on
Jan 15 23:50:40 <raster> or drastically changed it
Jan 15 23:50:44 <Dave> I can't wait until the summer, I'm going to buy a red wagon and mount my freerunner on it, and give it to some kid, a that seems like an appropriate usage
Jan 15 23:51:12 <raster> (dropped screen res to 320x480 or lower with a qvga lcd maybe, removed glamo in favor of a simple sdio multiplexer to get wifi on)
Jan 15 23:51:17 <raster> but it wass all too late
Jan 15 23:51:21 <raster> and not in my hands
Jan 15 23:51:42 <raster> Dave: i am happy withotu the case. ALL i care about is the cpu on it
Jan 15 23:52:06 <gurugentoo> I may have to sell this one and get something more satisfactory in that case
Jan 15 23:52:10 <raster> but these omap3 babies really zoom
Jan 15 23:52:12 <raster> really
Jan 15 23:52:23 <raster> the reason that palm pre is so sexy.. is the omap3
Jan 15 23:52:25 <raster> its grunty
Jan 15 23:52:38 <raster> clock-for-clock its like 4x the performance of the 2442 in the gta02
Jan 15 23:52:51 <raster> that means clock the same clockrate - get 4x the speed
Jan 15 23:52:55 <raster> cuyrrently its only 500mhz
Jan 15 23:52:57 <raster> but can be 600
Jan 15 23:53:01 <raster> its also got the dsp there
Jan 15 23:53:10 <raster> i am only starting to play with the neon co-proc
Jan 15 23:53:45 <raster> (neon is a simd multimedia mmx-like co-processor thats inlined with arm instructions - reports are that you can improve speed somewhere 2-6x that of normal c)
Jan 15 23:54:06 <Dave> daaaaaaaaamn
Jan 15 23:54:09 <raster> i have written a memory filler for now but i need to fix my benchmark to run specific benches directly
Jan 15 23:55:05 <raster> i like this processor
Jan 15 23:55:11 <raster> theres also the "c9losed) 3d core
Jan 15 23:55:13 <raster> (sgx)
Jan 15 23:55:21 <raster> there are drivers - now. on oe
Jan 15 23:55:24 <raster> but.. not open
Jan 15 23:55:27 <yoyo> it is good idea to make upgrade ?
Jan 15 23:55:45 <raster> tho personally just going to ignore that baby
Jan 15 23:55:47 <raster> for now
Jan 15 23:57:54 <Dave> :)
Jan 16 00:00:40 <raster> Dave:  anyway - recap your desktop stuff. sammary :)
Jan 16 00:00:41 <raster> summary
Jan 16 00:02:25 <yoyo> grate upgrade :) system not starting :)
Jan 16 00:02:27 <yoyo> hyhyhy
Jan 16 00:02:45 <Dave> if you're going to have text under the icons, don't add ellipses, just truncate
Jan 16 00:02:52 <Dave> OR as another suggested, don't use text at all :P
Jan 16 00:04:20 <raster> how do u know its truncated then?
Jan 16 00:04:30 <raster> some ugly cutoff?
Jan 16 00:04:30 <Dave> huh?
Jan 16 00:04:34 <Dave> raster, here look
Jan 16 00:04:39 <raster> 2 apps
Jan 16 00:04:47 <raster> "Home" and "Home Page"
Jan 16 00:04:51 <Dave> http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/0b0382bf15f2ef0cc8c9830bb1d50ccf.png
Jan 16 00:04:57 <raster> one gets truncated just before the {
Jan 16 00:05:00 <raster> err P
Jan 16 00:05:13 <Dave> see all the ...
Jan 16 00:05:16 <Dave> so you have Cal...
Jan 16 00:05:21 <raster> yes
Jan 16 00:05:27 <Dave> don't add an ellipsis, just have Calcu or something
Jan 16 00:05:41 <raster> more a matter that the font is big and icons really small
Jan 16 00:05:43 <raster> i disagree
Jan 16 00:05:44 <Dave> then you at least know what the app is more or less, plus the ungodly number of ellipses is awful to look at
Jan 16 00:05:50 <raster> but u can do that in the theme
Jan 16 00:05:54 <Dave> the other suggestions was lower the font size
Jan 16 00:06:05 <raster> you are just manufacturing an extreme case that is basically silly
Jan 16 00:06:10 <Dave> :(
Jan 16 00:06:17 <Dave> Gee, thanks a lot :)
Jan 16 00:06:31 <raster> theme can do that
Jan 16 00:06:35 <raster> but not as u change icon size
Jan 16 00:06:44 <raster> text can be done to fit a space
Jan 16 00:06:50 <raster> eg vertically or horizontally
Jan 16 00:06:54 <raster> but its slow and expensive to do
Jan 16 00:07:06 <raster> as u havew to hunt thru lots fo fonts and font sizes to try/guess
Jan 16 00:07:15 <raster> due to the way fonts just work
Jan 16 00:07:40 <raster> i am really not interested in the icon layout for the illume launcher
Jan 16 00:07:49 <raster> why do u think i'm not botheirng to add features or work on it?
Jan 16 00:07:54 <raster> i dont think its great
Jan 16 00:07:59 <raster> its not that good
Jan 16 00:08:13 <raster> it was a quick and dirty fix to avoid the pain that is the slider mode
Jan 16 00:08:17 <raster> that sean designed
Jan 16 00:08:25 <raster> or sean+will
Jan 16 00:08:29 <raster> cool idea
Jan 16 00:08:35 <raster> bad in real life usage
Jan 16 00:08:45 <Dave> :|
Jan 16 00:08:57 <Dave> yeah
Jan 16 00:09:02 <Dave> it's just kind of disappointing
Jan 16 00:09:48 <raster> ovfer time i need to split illume apart
Jan 16 00:09:54 <raster> and do a new layout policy
Jan 16 00:09:58 <raster> new all sorts of stuff
Jan 16 00:10:05 <raster> new laucnehr thing that actually works nicely
Jan 16 00:10:31 <Dave> sexy
Jan 16 00:11:10 <tordo> by the way, question
Jan 16 00:11:35 <Dave> tordo :o
Jan 16 00:11:38 <tordo> is it possible to have the qwerty button accesible without opening the shelf menu?
Jan 16 00:11:43 <tordo> Dave :o
Jan 16 00:11:46 <raster> tordo:  change the theme
Jan 16 00:12:05 <raster> i put it further away to make room fore more often needed stuff
Jan 16 00:12:10 <raster> like the app flipping buttons
Jan 16 00:12:42 <tordo> ah
Jan 16 00:12:52 <raster> i agree its needed
Jan 16 00:12:55 <Dave> yeah I also always found it rather inaccessible given its frequency of use
Jan 16 00:12:57 <raster> its just a question of priority
Jan 16 00:13:01 <Dave> right
Jan 16 00:13:02 <raster> what is used more
Jan 16 00:13:09 <raster> a manual qwerty control
Jan 16 00:13:13 <raster> or going betwene apps
Jan 16 00:13:22 <raster> (or back to home)
Jan 16 00:13:32 <raster> i believe app flipping is
Jan 16 00:13:32 <Dave> of course :P
Jan 16 00:13:44 <raster> technically most apps and toolkits should be able to auto-request the kbd themselves as needed
Jan 16 00:13:44 <tordo> true
Jan 16 00:13:47 <raster> some cant
Jan 16 00:13:49 <raster> or get it wrong
Jan 16 00:13:56 <raster> then that button is there to fix that
Jan 16 00:14:12 <raster> but i take it on the "by now - they should have at least most apps partly doing that right"
Jan 16 00:14:15 <dos1> raster: keyboard isn't automaticaly popped in by gtk apps
Jan 16 00:14:31 <raster> dos1: u need to install the matchbox-keyboard gtk input plugin
Jan 16 00:14:33 <dos1> popped up*
Jan 16 00:14:34 <raster> then they will
Jan 16 00:14:45 <raster> e understands the mathcbox protocol too
Jan 16 00:14:57 <dos1> raster: hmm... thanks for hint
Jan 16 00:15:03 <raster> someone just needs to split the package from the matchbox-kbd package
Jan 16 00:15:04 <raster> so its separate
Jan 16 00:15:08 <raster> thats all
Jan 16 00:15:15 <raster> in fact that was the FIRST thing i worked on and tested
Jan 16 00:15:21 <raster> as gtk was already in 2007.x
Jan 16 00:15:28 <raster> i made it all work with that stuff FIRST
Jan 16 00:15:38 <raster> but i spotted big problems with the protocol
Jan 16 00:15:50 <raster> and i developed a new one based on hitns on a window so its more robust
Jan 16 00:16:22 <raster> (as sending messages is flakey - if app doesnt send a "pop down kbd" when it exists/loses focus - ie if it is hung or just buggy or non-copoerative
Jan 16 00:16:32 <raster> kbd stays around as nothing said "get rid of it"
Jan 16 00:16:38 <raster> properties are attached to a window
Jan 16 00:16:46 <raster> when window hides/loses focus, dies etc.
Jan 16 00:16:50 <raster> widnow and all its properties go
Jan 16 00:17:11 <raster> thus u can much more reliably track the state of that app window and if it wants a vkbd or not when focused
Jan 16 00:17:20 <raster> so i didnt do a new protocol for nih reasons
Jan 16 00:17:28 <raster> i supported the mb proto
Jan 16 00:17:34 <raster> it just wasnt good enough
Jan 16 00:23:14 <Dave> man
Jan 16 00:23:21 <Dave> I'm so tempted to just buy an omap3
Jan 16 00:23:32 <Dave> cram it in a gta02 housing and be done with it :)
Jan 16 00:26:14 <Sargun> Dave, yeah, because that'll totally work...
Jan 16 00:33:13 <raster> Dave:  hahahaha
Jan 16 00:39:11 <gurugentoo> Dave: make 2 and I'll buy one :-)
Jan 16 00:39:38 <Sargun> Grr, my freerunner is no longer registering with the network...
Jan 16 00:39:47 <Sargun> No upgrade or anything, it just stopped working
Jan 16 01:27:16 <Dave> Sargun, shitty
Jan 16 01:52:35 <Dave> :o
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jan 16 02:59:57 2009