**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jun 01 02:59:57 2009
Jun 01 06:50:47 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03heikki.paajanen 07gsmd2 * rc16883a079ae 10/src/sim.c: 
Jun 01 06:50:47 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Fixed typo in error message.
Jun 01 06:50:47 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Thanks to David Ford for the patch.
Jun 01 09:09:58 <methril> mornig
Jun 01 09:11:54 <Blu3> 'tis 'bout time for me to get sleepy
Jun 01 09:12:50 <methril> :)
Jun 01 09:12:54 <methril> it's late here too
Jun 01 09:13:05 <methril> but i wake up on IRC ;)
Jun 01 09:13:26 <Blu3> 5am for me, i shoulda gone to bed but i just finished adding msg recombination to my sms app and quashed a few bugs
Jun 01 09:13:40 <Blu3> always "just one more" for a coder ya know
Jun 01 09:13:50 <methril> i know
Jun 01 09:14:01 <methril> it's 11:15 AM here
Jun 01 09:54:01 <PaulFertser> mickey|sun: Hey :) Remember that problem of inability to suspend after incoming call? I altered timeout to 5 seconds but it still doesn't help: http://pastebin.com/m6b71c8fd
Jun 01 09:54:12 <PaulFertser> mickey|sun: some other people on ML are complaining also
Jun 01 09:54:56 <sandwitch> according to the shr wiki i should set apn username and password in /home/root/.fso-settings, it gets not read in. Should i place it in another file to be able to start gprs from shr-settings?
Jun 01 09:55:32 <PaulFertser> sandwitch: are you using unstable? SHR settings should store last successfully used apn automatically afaik.
Jun 01 09:55:34 <Blu3> with shr-settings?  tap on the field and change it
Jun 01 09:55:43 <sandwitch> unstable PaulFertser 
Jun 01 09:55:44 <Blu3> it'll get saved
Jun 01 09:55:45 <CIA-75> SHR: 03mok 07shr-makefile * re61975b35a10 10/Makefile: Makefile: eliminate the shr-overlay for oemerge
Jun 01 09:55:57 <sandwitch> i'll try again
Jun 01 09:59:30 <sandwitch> LOL works great didnt saw it as editable fields thanks a lot people :)
Jun 01 09:59:57 <CIA-75> SHR: 03mok 07shr-makefile * ref458233dec8 10/Makefile: Makefile: do not patch OE for shr-oemerge anymore
Jun 01 10:01:12 <Blu3> no prob :)  it wasn't editable for a while so nobody realized it :)
Jun 01 10:02:55 <PaulFertser> mickey|sun: and i'm using deep_sleep always of course.
Jun 01 10:34:51 <Zorkman> hey everyone
Jun 01 10:35:14 <Zorkman> i see that openbmap has gotten a LOT of new cells (261749 cells now)
Jun 01 10:35:21 <Zorkman> did they finally merge?
Jun 01 10:35:29 <Zorkman> and if so, with who?
Jun 01 10:35:52 <Zorkman> too bad only 21323 are trusted :D
Jun 01 10:56:54 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07dbus-hlid * r4c075c8f1d8b 10fso-monitord/Makefile.am: Fix vala flags
Jun 01 10:56:55 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07dbus-hlid * r7088e5559edd 10fso-monitord/Makefile.am: Add debug flag to valac
Jun 01 11:18:37 <McKael> gug
Jun 01 11:19:05 <McKael> Is there a way to enable wifi from the command line, instead of using shr-settings?
Jun 01 11:19:16 <McKael> Maybe a dbus command line?
Jun 01 11:20:31 <PaulFertser> McKael: yes, there is :)
Jun 01 11:21:12 <PaulFertser> McKael: let me find it
Jun 01 11:21:52 <PaulFertser> McKael: mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.ousaged /org/freesmartphone/Usage org.freesmartphone.Usage.SetResourcePolicy WiFi Enabled
Jun 01 11:28:33 <McKael> hmm
Jun 01 11:28:38 <McKael> PaulFertser: /org/freesmartphone/Usage: SetResourcePolicy failed: org.freesmartphone.Usage.PolicyUnknown
Jun 01 11:29:22 <PaulFertser> McKael: hmm, probably it's "enabled"? I need to take a look at specs.
Jun 01 11:29:43 <McKael> PaulFertser: that's it!
Jun 01 11:30:12 <McKael> PaulFertser: Wonderful, thanks a lot :)
Jun 01 11:30:22 <PaulFertser> McKael: you're welcome
Jun 01 11:30:30 <Flyser> How can I find out the current power consumtion of a gta02? Still running a quite old kernel (2.6.24-something)
Jun 01 11:31:25 <PaulFertser> Flyser: to be 100% sure use an external device to measure current.
Jun 01 11:31:55 <Flyser> Isn't there a coloumb counter inside the battery
Jun 01 11:32:47 <PaulFertser> Flyser: there's, sure. But dealing with it is trickier than using some multi-meter. Especially if you want to monitor suspend current.
Jun 01 11:33:10 <Flyser> okay
Jun 01 12:36:59 <m0nt0> hi all
Jun 01 13:10:45 <nytowl> dos1 which yesterday ?
Jun 01 14:08:49 <SHR-WugBranler`> tracfeed: Ticket #498 (Can't connect to open wifi network) updated <http://trac.shr-project.org/trac/ticket/498#comment:2>
Jun 01 14:48:53 <DocScrutinizer> Flyser: for testing normal battery power consumption (not suspend) the culoumbcounter is great
Jun 01 14:51:23 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: why not suspend?
Jun 01 14:52:04 <DocScrutinizer> you can't read out the counter during suspend - for obvious reasons ;-)
Jun 01 14:53:50 <DocScrutinizer> but very first readout after resume is usually sort of correct for suspend situation - if done quickly
Jun 01 14:55:20 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: (can't readout) except when using my hack involving a pair of wires, a small iso-tape, and a second FR ;-D
Jun 01 14:56:21 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: but current_now immediately after resume shows consumption during suspend?
Jun 01 14:56:40 <DocScrutinizer> yup, that's what I found
Jun 01 14:57:25 <DocScrutinizer> which is quite normal as CC gets new values only every XX seconds
Jun 01 14:58:27 <DocScrutinizer> and  obviously the values are for period n-1
Jun 01 15:38:49 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, how is the concept about screenrotate and apps that need a certain screen-orientation/resolution?
Jun 01 15:40:56 <DocScrutinizer> rather difficult - I don't assume a switch between desktop-landscape and e.g. mokomaze-started-portrait would autoswitch the screen orientation
Jun 01 15:42:24 <DocScrutinizer> probably mokomaze wouldn't work nice with omnewrotate constantly rotating screen back and forth via g-meter
Jun 01 15:42:54 <Zorkman> DocScrutinizer: can't a program claim a resource (like accelerometers) ?
Jun 01 15:43:13 <DocScrutinizer> is there another resource... heh axactly
Jun 01 15:43:41 <DocScrutinizer> my question ;-) you've been faster
Jun 01 15:49:06 <DocScrutinizer> another complex semantics with priorities and signalling back of resource loss. :-/ 
Jun 01 15:51:21 <DocScrutinizer> e.g. you would not want to stop/fail mokomaze start if omnewrotate is running. Rather you would want to tell omnewrotate to temporary stop messing with orientation when mokomaze gets started
Jun 01 15:52:21 <Zorkman> exactly
Jun 01 15:52:32 <Zorkman> DocScrutinizer: thought there already existed something like that in FSO, guess i was wrong
Jun 01 15:52:34 <DocScrutinizer> so mokomaze had to allocate rotate-resource with a higher priority than omnewrotate
Jun 01 15:52:58 <DocScrutinizer> i doubt there's sth in  FSO
Jun 01 15:53:33 <Zorkman> it would be quite usefull imho
Jun 01 15:54:19 <Zorkman> it seems to me not more difficult than saying that when the headphones are plugged in, you don't want the speaker to be used...
Jun 01 15:54:40 <DocScrutinizer> SHR guys ( Ainulindale ?) discussed this general resource sharing issue a while ago
Jun 01 15:54:48 <Zorkman> i do realise this is probably a very naive comparison
Jun 01 15:55:26 <DocScrutinizer> Zorkman: it's basically correct though
Jun 01 15:57:11 <Zorkman> it's the same like with screendimming... you want programs to be able to override the settings (like gps program could be set not to dim the screen ever)
Jun 01 15:57:46 <DocScrutinizer> aaah, probably omnewrotate had to claim resources portrait and landscape. then mokomaze should allocate portrait with higher prio, so omnewrotate knows it mustn't unset this mode anymore
Jun 01 15:59:36 <DocScrutinizer> Zorkman: this analogy doesn't match: dimming isn't a resource any program would want to set explicit. so there are no possible conflicts of mutually exclusive states
Jun 01 16:00:41 <DocScrutinizer> (as: no app needs a dim screen to work propperly)
Jun 01 16:01:39 <Zorkman> DocScrutinizer: but some apps do require a *not* dimmed screen, no?
Jun 01 16:01:49 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jun 01 16:01:55 <Blu3> s/require/expect/
Jun 01 16:02:16 <DocScrutinizer> still no mutually exclusive requirements
Jun 01 16:02:18 <Blu3> i can run gps for tracking, want the fone to idle but not suspend
Jun 01 16:02:47 <Blu3> like if i start it and toss it in my backpack to do geotracking
Jun 01 16:02:57 <DocScrutinizer> Blu3: allocate cpu resource
Jun 01 16:03:09 <Blu3> yes, i know
Jun 01 16:03:26 <Blu3> i was indicating that normally running gps you'd probably expect to not idle the screen
Jun 01 16:03:34 <Blu3> but sometimes you would
Jun 01 16:05:17 <DocScrutinizer> Blu3: what's your point?
Jun 01 16:06:13 <Blu3> my point is what i just said.  normally some apps will expect a certain resource to stay in a given state.  but sometimes it's ok for them to change
Jun 01 16:07:00 <DocScrutinizer> that's known
Jun 01 16:08:09 <DocScrutinizer> for tango it's been discussed to implement a menu entry to cope with this
Jun 01 16:09:16 <DocScrutinizer> you as well can have two icons to start tango, one *with* fsoraw, one *without*
Jun 01 16:10:29 <DocScrutinizer> call the first "tango-nodimm"
Jun 01 16:10:54 <Blu3> i'd rather have a menu button inside tango for that
Jun 01 16:11:06 <Blu3> too many icons on the desktop already
Jun 01 16:11:18 <Zorkman> i agree with Blu3... (at fist glance)
Jun 01 16:11:37 <Zorkman> it seems more handy if i can select it in tangogps itself
Jun 01 16:12:09 <Blu3> i have to use size small for icons, scrolling detection and smooth scrolling is problematic
Jun 01 16:12:10 <DocScrutinizer> sure, was just counting options
Jun 01 16:12:14 <Zorkman> because maybe i'm first driving my car and don't want it to dim, but then when i go walking and only very spoiradically take a look at it I want to let it dim
Jun 01 16:12:39 <Zorkman> anyway, gonna go buy some food, bbl
Jun 01 16:12:40 <Blu3> if you set scrolling sensitivity high enough to register, trying to change sliders is next to impossible
Jun 01 16:12:47 <Blu3> cheers
Jun 01 16:13:55 <DocScrutinizer> anyway the dimming is OT wrt rotate issue
Jun 01 16:14:15 <Blu3> yep
Jun 01 16:14:35 <DocScrutinizer> or, more precise, resource prio and share issue
Jun 01 16:15:49 <DocScrutinizer> basically with dim/suspend resources there's no more (known) issue 
Jun 01 16:16:13 <DocScrutinizer> we got all the tools to deal with that
Jun 01 16:17:57 <DocScrutinizer> for rotate / resolution / other mutually exclusive resources (both for resources and apps claiming one resource) we obviously do not have a complete toolbox yet
Jun 01 16:20:59 <Blu3> hmm, not so yay.  call came in and no way to answer it
Jun 01 16:21:20 <Blu3> ...because ophonekitd has crashed again
Jun 01 16:22:32 <DocScrutinizer> Blu3: rarely seen that. phone needs some 3..5min to boot tho, and you shouldn't hammer it during that phase
Jun 01 16:23:01 <Blu3> oph is crashy, i haven't rebooted in nearly 48 hours
Jun 01 16:23:32 <DocScrutinizer> trying to make a call before framework fully inited e.g. crashed it for me quite a couple of times
Jun 01 16:23:47 <DocScrutinizer> hmm
Jun 01 16:24:05 <Blu3> yes, oph seems to have very limited error or unexpected response handling
Jun 01 16:24:21 <Blu3> like if the gsm sim interface isn't available
Jun 01 16:24:21 <DocScrutinizer> esp during startup
Jun 01 16:25:54 <DocScrutinizer> we still have the nasty dbus-libs bug. We all hope things get better as soon as dbus-msgs don't occasionally go to dev/null anymore
Jun 01 16:26:23 * raster pokes DocScrutinizer 
Jun 01 16:26:26 <raster> oi!
Jun 01 16:26:38 <DocScrutinizer> heeeh! raster :-)))
Jun 01 16:26:47 <Blu3> hmmm
Jun 01 16:27:00 <Blu3> how is this discoverable?
Jun 01 16:27:08 <Blu3> i wasn't aware of it
Jun 01 16:27:11 <raster> yay for internet that doesnt suck... finally
Jun 01 16:27:18 <Blu3> =]
Jun 01 16:27:34 * DocScrutinizer has to run now. No more cigs, no breakfast yet
Jun 01 16:27:36 <raster> Blu3:  dbus api should give errorsif u call dbus methods not available
Jun 01 16:27:55 <Blu3> raster, i got a quickie question for you.  outside of e_* how does one request the virtual keyboard pop up, i.e. in pygtk?
Jun 01 16:28:07 <Blu3> yes, it does, but ophonekitd doesn't handle it gracefully
Jun 01 16:28:19 <Blu3> nor does contacts|messages|dialer
Jun 01 16:28:36 <raster> Blu3: its a propetrty on the x window
Jun 01 16:28:52 <raster> if you use elementary - it will be done automatically
Jun 01 16:29:04 <raster> (when something that needs text input is focused)
Jun 01 16:29:12 <Blu3> i couldn't get your example code to work so i have done everything in pygtk
Jun 01 16:29:21 <raster> you just set a property to a certain atom
Jun 01 16:29:31 <raster> it requires so special magic - it's 1 xlib call to do
Jun 01 16:29:34 <Blu3> your wiki example e stuff is out of date i suspect
Jun 01 16:29:36 <Blu3> hrm
Jun 01 16:29:52 <raster> which wiki?
Jun 01 16:30:05 <Blu3> i set the focus, and grabbed it, for my win & textbuffer, but it didn't pop up
Jun 01 16:30:36 <Blu3> the ones on OM wiki page and the documentation on your e page
Jun 01 16:30:51 <raster> if you focus the entry with elm_object_focus()
Jun 01 16:30:51 <Blu3> it's been a couple weeks, i don't remember the urls exactly
Jun 01 16:30:55 <raster> the kbd will pop up
Jun 01 16:31:04 <raster> as such u are fcusing the wrong thing
Jun 01 16:31:13 <raster> or python bindings are broken
Jun 01 16:31:24 <raster> try elementary_test
Jun 01 16:31:32 <raster> it oes just that int he scrolled entry test
Jun 01 16:32:10 <Blu3> what i couldn't get working is a simple hello world.  either nothing was realized, or some function the doc example used was no longer available
Jun 01 16:32:18 <raster> the entry test does the same thing as well
Jun 01 16:32:43 <raster> so it  does work
Jun 01 16:32:44 <Blu3> is elementary lighter on resources than pygtk?
Jun 01 16:32:47 <raster> its working right here now.
Jun 01 16:33:04 <raster> as for the examples - they did work
Jun 01 16:33:19 <raster> tho the file browser one wont work thanks toecore changes since
Jun 01 16:33:23 <raster> other than that they should work
Jun 01 16:33:28 <Blu3> cut and paste of them now, doesn't
Jun 01 16:33:58 <Blu3> here's one, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Edje_examples
Jun 01 16:35:09 <Blu3> i think there was something about ..... software x11, softx11.... something vaguely like that - an error about the api
Jun 01 16:35:09 <raster> ok
Jun 01 16:35:21 <raster> i just copy and pasted the hello world example frm the elementary wiki
Jun 01 16:35:25 <raster> http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Elementary
Jun 01 16:35:49 <raster>  2:35AM ~ > cat > t.c                                            
Jun 01 16:35:49 <raster> #include <Elementary.h>                        
Jun 01 16:35:49 <raster> ...
Jun 01 16:36:05 <raster>  2:35AM ~ > gcc t.c -o tt `pkg-config --cflags --libs elementary`
Jun 01 16:36:06 <raster>  2:35AM ~ > ./tt       
Jun 01 16:36:16 <raster> and up comes a window with "hello world" in it.
Jun 01 16:36:19 <Blu3> ok
Jun 01 16:36:32 <Blu3> is elementary thinner on resources than pygtk?
Jun 01 16:36:33 <raster> so al ican think is - you are doing somethingwrong
Jun 01 16:36:37 <raster> i dont know
Jun 01 16:36:41 <raster> i've never measured
Jun 01 16:36:54 <raster> elementary is finger-drivable, unlike gtk
Jun 01 16:37:03 <Blu3> well firstly i'm writing in python so i'd be using python bindings
Jun 01 16:37:09 <Blu3> i don't have my laptop setup for crossdev
Jun 01 16:37:17 <raster> so as such it's moot for me as gtk just doesnt even do the job:)
Jun 01 16:37:33 <raster> i dont do cross-dev to do work
Jun 01 16:37:40 <raster> i do all work nativy in x86
Jun 01 16:37:50 <Blu3> well.  it has to run on my fone :)
Jun 01 16:37:53 <DocScrutinizer> raster: seen zoom and N900 news?
Jun 01 16:37:59 <raster> and only finally when i want to see it on target, i build for target with OE
Jun 01 16:38:09 <raster> i do that fairly rarely and never hit problems tho
Jun 01 16:38:16 <raster> DocScrutinizer:  nup
Jun 01 16:38:32 <raster> Blu3: and it WILL run on the fone
Jun 01 16:38:42 <raster> there is just no need to do all your development the hard way
Jun 01 16:38:50 <raster> it's a target
Jun 01 16:38:55 <raster> it just happens to use a different cpu
Jun 01 16:38:59 <Blu3> my point was the python binding examples i found for elementary didn't work :)
Jun 01 16:39:05 <raster> doesnt matter. make solves it :)
Jun 01 16:39:16 <Blu3> sure, if you have a toolchain for it
Jun 01 16:39:17 <raster> wel i cant comment for the python bindings
Jun 01 16:39:20 <raster> i idnt write them
Jun 01 16:39:40 <raster> i dont do python - it just causes mountains of headaches
Jun 01 16:39:53 <raster> you always need some binding for anything you do
Jun 01 16:40:02 <raster> and thats just painful.
Jun 01 16:40:04 <Blu3> python doesn't cause me headaches, pygtk sometimes does
Jun 01 16:40:14 <raster> i never have tried - but some peolpe seem tothink vala is good
Jun 01 16:40:19 <raster> and it is pretty much c
Jun 01 16:40:24 <raster> but it requires compiling
Jun 01 16:40:41 <raster> well... python is causing you problems - elementary bindings dont work
Jun 01 16:40:46 <raster> in fact i know they are incomplte
Jun 01 16:40:54 <raster> they dont offer all the featues it has
Jun 01 16:40:56 <raster> features
Jun 01 16:41:04 <raster> thats the case for a lot of bindings
Jun 01 16:55:43 <admiral0> hi
Jun 01 16:56:15 <Blu3> hi
Jun 01 16:59:31 <DocMobilizer> howdy
Jun 01 17:00:33 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, PING
Jun 01 17:01:52 <DocMobilizer> raster: now here ;-)
Jun 01 17:03:51 <DocMobilizer> no decenti keyboard tho  
Jun 01 17:06:57 <mrmoku> mwester, ping
Jun 01 17:08:26 <DocMobilizer> mrmoku: hi!
Jun 01 17:10:32 <mrmoku> DocMobilizer, hey
Jun 01 17:11:00 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, I thought you fixed that damn en-gb issue ;)
Jun 01 17:12:08 <Ainulindale> I thought I did too
Jun 01 17:12:40 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, I understand it though...
Jun 01 17:12:46 <Ainulindale> What?
Jun 01 17:12:52 <mrmoku> it get's set by conf/distro/include/angstrom-2007-for-openmoko.inc
Jun 01 17:12:59 <Ainulindale> yeah and I committed that
Jun 01 17:13:03 <mrmoku> and thus not overriden with ?= in shr-image.inc
Jun 01 17:13:20 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, committed what?
Jun 01 17:13:28 <Ainulindale> I changed that by ?= and put a IMAGES_LINGUAS in local.conf
Jun 01 17:13:54 <mrmoku> ahh... ok that will take effect only on new make setup... (and won't please mwester ;)
Jun 01 17:14:06 <Ainulindale> Well I didn't modify the makefile
Jun 01 17:14:18 <Ainulindale> My guess is that we should put en-us as a default in shr.conf with ?=
Jun 01 17:14:19 <mrmoku> the Makefile does not touch existing config
Jun 01 17:14:46 <mrmoku> bbiab
Jun 01 17:16:16 <DocMobilizer> well I dont care but - shr firststart config has en_eN (or similar) as only choice for locale
Jun 01 17:18:01 <DocMobilizer> then offers but same moment deprecates genuine illume theme
Jun 01 17:19:28 <DocMobilizer> still no "invert selection" button on select-apps
Jun 01 17:20:02 <DocMobilizer> many apps missing icon there
Jun 01 17:22:01 <DocMobilizer> raster: zoom still cool for MDP
Jun 01 17:22:49 <DocMobilizer> raster: seems we might get 3g-module separately
Jun 01 17:23:09 <DocMobilizer> and plug in
Jun 01 17:25:05 <DocMobilizer> if by any chance you might get a zoom, please share your account to schem/BOM to me ;-)
Jun 01 17:25:10 <PaulFertser> DocMobilizer: any news wrt getting it?
Jun 01 17:25:22 <DocMobilizer> not yet
Jun 01 17:26:06 <DocMobilizer> first need schem/layout/bom to check :-/
Jun 01 17:26:25 <DocMobilizer> deadlock
Jun 01 17:26:41 <PaulFertser> Why not write a mail to InterDigital asking for availability?
Jun 01 17:26:57 <DocMobilizer> could do
Jun 01 17:28:27 <DocMobilizer> only will if I'm *not* the only one to consider getting this
Jun 01 17:29:57 <max_posedon> Ainulindale, mrmoku Have you fixed locale problem?
Jun 01 17:30:03 <max_posedon> en_GB -> en_US?
Jun 01 17:30:18 <max_posedon> and please DON'T TOUCH LC_ALL, only LANG..
Jun 01 17:30:32 <max_posedon> (e.g. LC_ALL shouldn't be defined)
Jun 01 17:48:42 <DocMobilizer> really dont like the oversize new scrollbars e.g. in pidgin
Jun 01 17:49:23 <DocMobilizer> and the bold header of term-kbd has to GO AWAY
Jun 01 17:55:30 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, back... yeah shr.conf at top it the sane solution until we get rid of that angstrom thing
Jun 01 17:55:42 <mrmoku> I dislike it esthetically... but who cares :P
Jun 01 17:56:19 <mrmoku> max_posedon, will check that too...
Jun 01 17:56:51 <max_posedon> DocMobilizer, as for me - I like new pidgin design
Jun 01 17:56:59 <max_posedon> it's more usable with fingers
Jun 01 17:57:18 <max_posedon> I don't type much on neo, just read usually in train - and like it
Jun 01 18:24:04 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, alternatively we could start a preferred-shr-versions.inc with IMAGE_LINGUAS ?= en-us and all the preferred versions from shr-autorev.inc
Jun 01 18:24:17 <mrmoku> that would be clean :)
Jun 01 18:42:59 <mrmoku> max_posedon, LC_ALL is no more :)
Jun 01 18:45:06 <max_posedon> nice, thanks)
Jun 01 18:45:15 <max_posedon> 'cause it was crazy
Jun 01 19:01:44 <DocScrutinizer> max_posedon: scrollbars and kbd-header reduce actual effectife screen to a postage stamp
Jun 01 19:02:58 <Blu3> that's why we need to ship microscopes with our phones
Jun 01 19:05:58 <DocScrutinizer> heh, fingerfriendly, just needs loupe. Better than use stylus anyway - lol
Jun 01 19:07:15 <Sharwin_F> yes, and would be good to make the kb transparent :D
Jun 01 19:07:31 <Blu3> i tend to prefer stylus for stuff, keyboard takes half of the screen already
Jun 01 19:07:45 <DocScrutinizer> Honestly I don't think the way to go to make an app fingerfriendly is to give it oversized scrollbars :-/
Jun 01 19:07:56 <Blu3> making things entirely finger friendly isn't so good for this size of screen
Jun 01 19:08:01 <max_posedon> DocMobilizer, hm... with "disabled contact list"
Jun 01 19:08:10 <max_posedon> and with font-size-3
Jun 01 19:08:15 <max_posedon> I still find it nice.
Jun 01 19:09:49 <max_posedon> DocMobilizer, if somebody will make this scrollbars 'on' only when I'm scrolling
Jun 01 19:10:05 <max_posedon> or make it possible scroll with fingers
Jun 01 19:10:11 <max_posedon> (like shr-settings)
Jun 01 19:10:16 <max_posedon> it will be great, yes.
Jun 01 19:10:39 <DocScrutinizer> I get a freaking SEVEN lines of ~35(!) char even with disabled contact list
Jun 01 19:11:03 <DocScrutinizer> unbearable
Jun 01 19:13:17 <raster> DocScrutinizer: indeed finger-friendly is NOT just making scrollbars massive
Jun 01 19:13:23 <raster> t5here's a lot to it
Jun 01 19:13:39 <raster> some of it is making things you are to hit/click big enough for a finger
Jun 01 19:13:50 <raster> other bits are trying to avoid needing things... like scrollbars
Jun 01 19:14:06 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jun 01 19:15:26 <DocScrutinizer> (btw the above "yup" is about all I get on a single line in pidgin, without linewrap :-S )
Jun 01 19:15:47 <raster> HAHAHAHAHHAHA
Jun 01 19:15:55 <raster> pidging is using oversides fonts?
Jun 01 19:15:58 <raster> oversized
Jun 01 19:16:06 <DocScrutinizer> (this comment took 4 of the 7 lines)
Jun 01 19:16:19 <raster> hahahah
Jun 01 19:17:25 <DocScrutinizer> raster: nah, still using timestamps (hate the " AM")
Jun 01 19:17:39 <DocScrutinizer> 3chars for nothin
Jun 01 19:18:52 <raster> oooh
Jun 01 19:18:54 <raster> timestamps
Jun 01 19:19:58 <DocScrutinizer> yup, 14char. grrr
Jun 01 19:20:08 <raster> turn them off!
Jun 01 19:20:12 <raster> annoying crap
Jun 01 19:20:51 <DocScrutinizer> nah, for backscroll I need them. would like to have different format though
Jun 01 19:21:13 <raster> maybenot mins and secs
Jun 01 19:21:16 <raster> just hh:mm
Jun 01 19:21:17 <raster> ?
Jun 01 19:21:23 <raster> no date
Jun 01 19:22:06 <DocScrutinizer> (hh:mm:ss AM) now
Jun 01 19:22:32 <raster> do u need :ss ?
Jun 01 19:22:41 <raster> this is where some good customisation would do well
Jun 01 19:22:46 <max_posedon1> I really sugest phone size 3
Jun 01 19:23:11 <DocScrutinizer> well first I'd kill the spaces and braces and american stile 
Jun 01 19:23:25 <DocScrutinizer> style am/pm
Jun 01 19:24:19 <DocScrutinizer> sure (custom). alas pidgin settings dialog is completely broken ;-D
Jun 01 19:24:38 <DocScrutinizer> no idea if it can be done there
Jun 01 19:25:31 <max_posedon1> I think you can just change locale
Jun 01 19:25:37 <max_posedon1> I havent any am/pm
Jun 01 19:26:47 <DocScrutinizer> yup, but then locale isn't in any settings dialog yet
Jun 01 19:27:15 <DocScrutinizer> didn't do any custom settings beyond "settings" yet
Jun 01 19:27:53 <DocScrutinizer> especially since filemanager is a PITA anyway
Jun 01 19:28:15 <DocScrutinizer> as is busybox
Jun 01 19:28:19 <DocScrutinizer> and nano
Jun 01 19:30:45 <max_posedon1> mrmoku: Is it hard add vim?
Jun 01 19:30:59 <max_posedon1> (to feeds)
Jun 01 19:31:19 <DocScrutinizer> back to topic: for scrollbars a small one close to the screen bezel is rather convenient
Jun 01 19:31:41 <DocScrutinizer> opeate by fingernail
Jun 01 19:31:55 <raster> bah
Jun 01 19:32:07 <raster> just drag the contents with your finger
Jun 01 19:32:14 <DocScrutinizer> yup, better
Jun 01 19:32:38 <mrmoku> max_posedon1, should be there
Jun 01 19:32:52 <DocScrutinizer> but - strange enough - this doesn't work for pidgin
Jun 01 19:33:00 <raster> pidgin uses gtk
Jun 01 19:33:03 <raster> thats why
Jun 01 19:33:10 <DocScrutinizer> i know
Jun 01 19:33:26 <raster> gtk has no such finger scrolly magic currently
Jun 01 19:33:37 <DocScrutinizer> and the new bold scrollbars are odd
Jun 01 19:34:40 <DocScrutinizer> but, honestly, this should be easily user selectable theme
Jun 01 19:36:42 <raster> gtk themes cant change behavior
Jun 01 19:38:51 <DocScrutinizer> but maybe size of scrollbars ;-)
Jun 01 19:41:24 <DocScrutinizer> raster: for now I'd do a dance of joy if termina-kbd could become default, ** and could get rid of this nasty bold top bar **
Jun 01 19:42:38 <DocScrutinizer> or at least reduce hight of bar to 1/4
Jun 01 19:42:58 <Sharwin_F> +1 for terminal kb = default
Jun 01 19:43:09 <Blu3> i already deleted the other two
Jun 01 19:43:10 <Sharwin_F> is someone using predictive one? xD
Jun 01 19:43:39 <DocScrutinizer> never
Jun 01 19:43:50 <DocScrutinizer> unusable - usually
Jun 01 19:44:16 <DocScrutinizer> errr, make that: doesn't meet my needs
Jun 01 19:47:30 <Blu3> it's too slow for me, even typing with a stylus, i type much faster than it responds.  that and the dictionary doesn't have many of the words i use
Jun 01 19:50:03 <DocScrutinizer> and the topbar (that's eating almost 10% of whole screen by itself) could go away unnoticed, as I never need the both buttons there if term-kbd is default
Jun 01 19:52:01 <Sharwin_F> I would need the right b utton to change to OptimSMS one, but the button to do it could be more small :)
Jun 01 19:53:18 <DocScrutinizer> the function of those buttons could go to some menu invoked by ctl-alt-rightToDel special key or similar
Jun 01 19:53:56 <max_posedon> new gtk-illume theme is awesome!
Jun 01 19:54:04 <max_posedon> midori fully usable!
Jun 01 19:54:11 <max_posedon> s/fully/totally
Jun 01 19:55:55 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, I gave up on midori, for my life couldn't figure how to enter a simple url :-/
Jun 01 19:56:13 <max_posedon> DocMobilizer, try now!
Jun 01 19:56:29 <DocScrutinizer> did
Jun 01 19:56:31 <max_posedon> I hate it before too, before this update
Jun 01 19:56:44 <DocScrutinizer> oh, no
Jun 01 19:56:51 <DocScrutinizer> i see
Jun 01 19:57:12 <DocScrutinizer> url enter now is there - lol!!! finally
Jun 01 19:58:40 <max_posedon> tangogps now looks better too
Jun 01 19:58:56 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jun 01 20:02:13 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07dbus-hlid * ra1f0af168e1c 10fso-monitord/src/dbus.vala: Add missing throw statement for FSO.DBus
Jun 01 20:04:09 <max_posedon> midori enforce 96dpi, I love it
Jun 01 20:05:57 <dent> how fast midori is?
Jun 01 20:06:07 <max_posedon> who cares?!)
Jun 01 20:06:09 <dent> I tried dillo and was amazed by its speed
Jun 01 20:06:24 <dent> I do, but never mind, I'll find out :-P
Jun 01 20:06:29 <max_posedon> gmail.com fast enough
Jun 01 20:09:24 <DocScrutinizer> midori initial zoom factor is a PITA
Jun 01 20:09:33 <max_posedon> DocMobilizer, it isn't zoom
Jun 01 20:09:44 <max_posedon> in options - enforce 96dpi
Jun 01 20:09:54 <max_posedon> then minimal font size = 2
Jun 01 20:12:25 <max_posedon> ok, may be it is zoom too)
Jun 01 20:12:44 <Zorkman> maybe make those settings the default ones?
Jun 01 20:14:01 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, better. still alas it doesn't apply to settings itself. just got a tooltip accidentally, but cant reproduce to get to know what's right half of prefs-behavior
Jun 01 20:14:17 <max_posedon> restart helps
Jun 01 20:17:03 <DocScrutinizer> max_posedon: right halp of checkbox settings in prefs-begavior stil cut off
Jun 01 20:17:19 <DocScrutinizer> no idea about what these settings are
Jun 01 20:18:46 <DocScrutinizer> just got a tooltip for "96" and onother for "enable scripts" - but only on blindly hitting dim screen
Jun 01 20:19:28 <DocScrutinizer> tooltips methos is somewhat non-intuitive to me...
Jun 01 20:19:43 <DocScrutinizer> method (to invoke)
Jun 01 20:23:07 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, "position stylus, wait til screen dims, wait a little more, hit screen exactly on this position" at least seems to invoke tooltips reliably - strange concept tho :-P
Jun 01 20:28:16 <DocScrutinizer> think I'd prefer the active zone restricted to actual checkbox, and get the tooltip instead of check/uncheck when hitting checkbox label
Jun 01 20:29:34 <DocScrutinizer> of course settings actually fitting on screen, or to have scrollbarrs would be really nice
Jun 01 20:48:57 <DocScrutinizer> hrrmmm, the rendering of wiki.openmoko.org pages is abysmal. collumn of 1/3 the (small enough) screen width
Jun 01 20:59:00 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, I would really like to switch unstable to OE now... any objections? :P
Jun 01 21:03:47 <m0nt0> mrmoku, go for the switch
Jun 01 21:04:28 <m0nt0> ptitjes, ping
Jun 01 21:07:24 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: go for it
Jun 01 21:08:20 <m0nt0> Ainulindale, sorry, i was out for work last week
Jun 01 21:08:30 <m0nt0> how is the gui thing going?
Jun 01 21:10:15 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, ok :)
Jun 01 21:11:19 <mwester> mrmoku,  kill those kernel patches in the overlay for shr-oemereg
Jun 01 21:11:23 <m0nt0> mrmoku, so you are going to build new images tonight?
Jun 01 21:11:47 <mrmoku> mwester, I already killed the whole overlay for shr-oemerge
Jun 01 21:11:57 <mrmoku> and will do so for unstable now
Jun 01 21:12:20 <mrmoku> I did a complete rebuild of lite-image, image and feed for shr-oemerge without overlay today :)
Jun 01 21:12:25 <mrmoku> built just fine
Jun 01 21:12:31 <mwester> I just fixed the oe shr import branch -- still need to patches if unstable is based on the mso 5.5 OE branch.
Jun 01 21:12:48 <mrmoku> m0nt0, yeah, will rebuilt unstable then
Jun 01 21:12:58 <mrmoku> mwester, no, it will be based on shr/import
Jun 01 21:13:06 <mwester> ok, then that's fine.
Jun 01 21:13:20 <mwester> There's a bogus OVERRIDE setting in the shr conf files.
Jun 01 21:13:21 <mrmoku> ahh... before we have to fix the locale thing
Jun 01 21:13:34 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, did you see my comment about recommended-shr-versions.inc?
Jun 01 21:14:43 <mrmoku> mwester, shr? yeah, will remove it
Jun 01 21:15:17 <mrmoku> mwester, what is your take on that IMAGE_LINGUAS thing?
Jun 01 21:15:24 <mrmoku> we set it with ?= in our image.inc
Jun 01 21:15:46 <mrmoku> but that has no effect, because it gets set to en-gb by some amstrong-for-openmoko.inc
Jun 01 21:16:26 <mwester> utterly totally bogus crapola shoved onto everyone by a euro-centric egocentric dev in charge of Angstrom!  <----- That's my opinion on the fact that it's currently set to en-gb.
Jun 01 21:16:28 <mrmoku> so we could either stuff the ?= into shr.conf... or start a recommended-shr-versions.inc that contains that and the recommended versions from our autorev.inc
Jun 01 21:17:42 <mwester> Either solution works; I think I favor fewer conf files for the moment.
Jun 01 21:17:57 <mwester> There's already the potential for confusion :(
Jun 01 21:17:58 <mrmoku> mwester, on the other hand... grepping for IMAGE_LINGUAS shows me that everybody sets it in the image files... with =
Jun 01 21:18:12 <mwester> Yes, but they set it to what?
Jun 01 21:18:21 <mrmoku> most of them to empty :)
Jun 01 21:18:25 <mwester> :)
Jun 01 21:18:40 <mrmoku> questions is... can it be overriden by some conf/local.conf then?
Jun 01 21:18:47 <mwester> No.
Jun 01 21:18:50 <mrmoku> :(
Jun 01 21:19:00 <mwester> Why do we need to change it?
Jun 01 21:19:04 <mwester> What's unqiue about us?
Jun 01 21:19:07 <mrmoku> I don't want to loose the ability to build a shr image with only de locale ;)
Jun 01 21:19:53 <mrmoku> mwester, for some reason we need a default locale... don't remember why... Ainulindale should know
Jun 01 21:20:30 <mwester> If we need a default locale, and it can change, then it cannot be set in the image.
Jun 01 21:20:37 <mwester> The right place is possibly local.conf.
Jun 01 21:20:56 <mwester> But I maintain that's wrong -- you should always get _something_ correct, without a local.conf.
Jun 01 21:21:18 <mwester> Set it to something with ?= and then ensure that we set it in auto.conf.
Jun 01 21:21:39 <mrmoku> ok, auto.conf or local.conf?
Jun 01 21:21:43 <mwester> And while we're at it, move the rm_work from auto.conf (where it does NOT belong) to local.conf.
Jun 01 21:21:59 <mrmoku> ah, ok
Jun 01 21:22:01 <mwester> local.conf is per-dev, and is tuning.
Jun 01 21:22:42 <mwester> So the general guideline is that auto.conf is edited by the Makefile, local.conf is screwed up by the developer.
Jun 01 21:23:19 <mrmoku> hmm, interesting. That means we can change the auto.conf on make update via the Makefile...
Jun 01 21:23:43 <mwester> the make setup-x-y targets edit auto.conf.
Jun 01 21:24:15 <mrmoku> and maybe create a local.conf with commented examples about what one could do?
Jun 01 21:24:19 <mwester> yep
Jun 01 21:24:34 <mwester> and even some defaults for what we would _like_ them to do (rm_work, for example).
Jun 01 21:25:12 <mwester> But if it is important, then it should not be in local.conf, and the user should use a make target to alter it.
Jun 01 21:25:27 <mwester> (those "include" lines should probably also move out of local.conf)
Jun 01 21:25:53 <mwester> Note that movign stuff between auto.conf and local.conf may change the order of evaluation, and with angstrom and such, that may cause some side effects. :(
Jun 01 21:26:39 <mrmoku> ouch
Jun 01 21:26:50 <mrmoku> well then I would prefer to leave that as is for tonight :P
Jun 01 21:27:04 <mwester> BTW, now that we are in OE, I can easily add a custom defconfig for busybox.  As soon as the new env. is tested and stable, I'll do that.
Jun 01 21:27:16 <mrmoku> just move the IMAGE_LINGUAS to shr.conf and rebuild unstable
Jun 01 21:27:18 <mrmoku> mwester, great :)
Jun 01 21:27:23 <mrmoku> brb
Jun 01 21:27:31 <mwester> Yes, I agree -- let's leave as-is so that we only change a few things at a time. :)
Jun 01 21:27:36 <mwester> bbiab
Jun 01 21:41:31 <m0nt0> bye all!
Jun 01 21:46:03 <CIA-75> SHR: 03mok 07shr-makefile * r99636238c035 10/Makefile: Makefile: remove the overlay for shr-unstable
Jun 01 22:00:58 <DocMobilizer> PaulFertser: we should fix the MBC charge-end-I threshold issue from userland for now
Jun 01 22:03:07 <mrmoku> yo, rebuild from scratch for shr-unstable started... time to go to bed
Jun 01 22:03:10 <mrmoku> gnight all
Jun 01 22:13:23 <DocMobilizer> night mrmoku|away
Jun 01 22:15:57 <DocMobilizer> SHR-crew: please include Werner's tools to basic. Here particularly pmu
Jun 01 22:17:53 * mwester attempts to make sense from that sentence, and fails.
Jun 01 22:18:09 <DocMobilizer> should all go to /sbin
Jun 01 22:18:27 <DocMobilizer> mwester: ?
Jun 01 22:19:03 <mwester> What are Werner's tools to basic?  Basic what?
Jun 01 22:20:12 <DocMobilizer> dunno, basic tools pkg. same as discussed for fsoraw yesterday
Jun 01 22:20:46 <mwester> That's probably what I was missing, I was not about yesterday so I didn't see that discussion. :)  Hopefully mrmoku|away knows about it.
Jun 01 22:21:19 <DocMobilizer> he asked for it ;-)
Jun 01 22:21:59 <DocMobilizer> yesterday , fsoraw
Jun 01 22:22:23 <mwester> But I did see you wanted vim.
Jun 01 22:22:30 <mwester> Why not emacs?!
Jun 01 22:22:33 <mwester> :p
Jun 01 22:23:04 <DocMobilizer> meeee, nah
Jun 01 22:24:56 <DocMobilizer> me stated 'nano is a pita'. someone else asked for vim
Jun 01 22:29:40 <DocMobilizer> for now I'm asking for werner's pmu, or i2cset (or both plus the other tools) - to fix a nasty bug overcharging bat when modem is on
Jun 01 22:41:45 <DocMobilizer> though I'd say this is clearly sth that has to move to kernel, we could do pmu-register setup from an initscript for a botch
Jun 01 22:43:23 <DocMobilizer> we need werners pmu/i2cset for this
Jun 01 22:43:51 <DocMobilizer> that's why it has to go to /sbin
Jun 01 22:45:01 <DocMobilizer> not /usr/sbin nor */local
Jun 01 22:46:41 <DocMobilizer> mwester: lost you? ;-)
Jun 01 23:26:01 <dcordes> how can I get the latest and greatest illume?
Jun 02 00:01:50 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: I'll be unavailble for kernel patching but i think if you say what register in PMU setup is wrong and what it should be set to, somebody will quickly make a patch. I don't see why you want a boot-script workaround.
Jun 02 00:03:22 <DocScrutinizer> wel, mainly because I'll not patch the kernel as well, and Werner pointed out it doesn't make a big diference who's setting the PMU registers and *he* also doesn't seem to be eager to patch this ;-)
Jun 02 00:06:12 <DocScrutinizer> but we would need a kernelfix urgently to get rid of the nasty nonsense braindead broken "restart charging though still full" thing as well
Jun 02 00:06:47 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r36a933f1385b 10/libfsoframework/vapi/ (linux26.vapi posixextra.vapi): fsoframework: add more networking stuff to linux26.vapi and posixextra.vapi
Jun 02 00:06:48 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r3e3c72a72662 10/libfsoframework/vapi/ (Makefile.am libnl.deps libnl.vapi): fsoframework: vapi: start with binding libnl (netlink convenience library)
Jun 02 00:06:50 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r17c6169ec60d 10/libfsoframework/fsoframework/ (fsoframework-2.0.vapi utilities.vala): fsoframework: utilities: add convenience function ipv4AddressForInterface
Jun 02 00:06:50 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r628d82c88f51 10/libfsoframework/tests/testutilities.vala: fsoframework: tests: add test for Network.ipv4AddressForInterface
Jun 02 00:06:52 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r5da25b126bb9 10/libfsoframework/ (fsoframework/utilities.vala tests/testutilities.vala): fsoframework: check for ioctl return value
Jun 02 00:06:54 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rc436aab35583 10/fsonetworkd/src/plugins/sharing/ (Makefile.am plugin.vala sharing-helpers.c): 
Jun 02 00:06:57 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: fsonetwork: sharing: simplify checking for interface existance
Jun 02 00:06:59 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: * remove c helper code and use fsoframework method instead
Jun 02 00:07:01 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: * raise proper dbus errors
Jun 02 00:07:56 <DocScrutinizer> so probably setting "pmu 0x48=1" (according to werner, unverified) should go along easily then
Jun 02 00:08:44 <DocScrutinizer> PaulFertser: A pity we got no decent kernel maintainer anymore
Jun 02 00:10:33 <DocScrutinizer> PaulFertser: though there's a bit more to it, as for now uBoot (/qi?) is setting this register and kernel is another time clueless about correct hw-init :-(((
Jun 02 00:10:44 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: is there any problem for you to test pmu 0x48=1 workaround?
Jun 02 00:10:54 <DocScrutinizer> not really
Jun 02 00:11:10 <DocScrutinizer> except me being a lazy ass ;-)
Jun 02 00:12:08 <DocScrutinizer> anyway I think having werner's tools in SHR basic toolbox would be a good thing regardles of this issue
Jun 02 00:12:48 <DocScrutinizer> there's not always a PaulFertser around to share binaries ;-)
Jun 02 00:13:22 <DocScrutinizer> [2009-06-01 20:44:38] <DocScrutinizer2> [2009-05-31 23:42:51] <DocScrutinizer> btw, problem with werner's tools is: there's never a binary to instantly dl and use
Jun 02 00:13:24 <DocScrutinizer> [2009-06-01 20:48:36] <wpwrak> ah, i just leave the binaries to the distro makers :)
Jun 02 00:14:31 <DocScrutinizer> lol for that one
Jun 02 00:16:07 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: i can send a patch for Qi instantly
Jun 02 00:16:35 <DocScrutinizer> I'm curious if qi is actually touching this register at all
Jun 02 00:16:41 <PaulFertser> It does
Jun 02 00:16:45 <PaulFertser> Set to 0
Jun 02 00:16:47 <DocScrutinizer> 0?
Jun 02 00:16:49 <PaulFertser> { PCF50633_REG_MBCC6,           0x00 }, /* cutoff current 1/32 * Ichg */
Jun 02 00:16:50 <DocScrutinizer> aah
Jun 02 00:16:59 <DocScrutinizer> make that 1
Jun 02 00:17:22 <DocScrutinizer> I'll take the blame if it eats anybody's cat
Jun 02 00:18:27 <DocScrutinizer> actually chances for "0" eating somebody house AND cat are much higher :o
Jun 02 00:19:38 <DocScrutinizer> from what I understand we might lose some 50mA charge if GSM disabled during carging
Jun 02 00:19:48 <DocScrutinizer> mAh
Jun 02 00:19:55 <DocScrutinizer> max
Jun 02 00:20:00 <Blu3> if it's disabled?
Jun 02 00:20:27 <DocScrutinizer> yup, that's the funny about this story
Jun 02 00:20:42 <Blu3> huh.  i wonder how & why that happens
Jun 02 00:21:33 <DocScrutinizer> PMU is stopping charge when cureent is less than /* cutoff current 1/32 * Ichg */. Modem adds to the current seen by PMU
Jun 02 00:22:03 <DocScrutinizer> so if you *disable* GSM, it actually stops charging more early
Jun 02 00:22:17 <Blu3> ic
Jun 02 00:22:52 <DocScrutinizer> or, the other way round: with "0" and GSM it *never* stops :-O
Jun 02 00:23:58 <DocScrutinizer> (actually after a few hours "emergency timeout" triggers)
Jun 02 00:26:22 <PaulFertser> dagger: sent
Jun 02 00:26:50 <DocScrutinizer> *sigh* treating your battery gently is a high art. Not many devices are designed to ultimately reach this goal
Jun 02 00:26:57 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: the patch sent
Jun 02 00:27:04 <DocScrutinizer> cool :-)
Jun 02 00:28:08 <DocScrutinizer> still we need to care about that in rootfs/kernel as well. Will prepare an initscript (ridiculous 1lines I guess)
Jun 02 00:28:25 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: as to where the proper initialization should go BL/kernel... I remember there was different reasoning. Probably the kernel should be modified too.
Jun 02 00:29:20 <DocScrutinizer> yup. Werner and me agreed on best practice would be kernel and bl sharing same "*.h" or whatever source for hw-init
Jun 02 00:29:53 <DocScrutinizer> for Qi though it would be best to leave as much as possible to be done by kernel
Jun 02 00:29:57 <PaulFertser> Heh, yes, i remember that. And nobody did that.
Jun 02 00:30:10 <DocScrutinizer> as there's no way to stop at a bootmenu in Qi
Jun 02 00:30:49 <DocScrutinizer> ergo: no use to do hw-init twice
Jun 02 00:31:12 <DocScrutinizer> for uBoot though things are rather different
Jun 02 00:31:57 <DocScrutinizer> there's actually HowTo's for charging bat from uBoot without any kernel interaction
Jun 02 00:32:45 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: oh shit, i forgot to mention you in commit message again :(
Jun 02 00:33:09 <DocScrutinizer> OMG, none of my future customers employers will ever see all this irc chat :-S
Jun 02 00:33:35 <DocScrutinizer> I'm doomed
Jun 02 00:34:25 <PaulFertser> Amended patch sent
Jun 02 00:34:32 <DocScrutinizer> ol
Jun 02 00:34:37 <DocScrutinizer> lol
Jun 02 00:34:41 <DocScrutinizer> lo
Jun 02 00:34:43 <DocScrutinizer> l
Jun 02 00:34:59 <DocScrutinizer> to do a little fancy artwork ;-)
Jun 02 00:35:03 <DocScrutinizer> thanks
Jun 02 00:36:31 <DocScrutinizer> actually I probably lost my job at OM just because of the fsckng IRC, and I don't care. Nah, it's been a lucky day actually I guess... ;-)
Jun 02 00:37:43 * DocScrutinizer envisions himself sitting next to Sean in a empty office....
Jun 02 00:38:13 <PaulFertser> Patch applied
Jun 02 00:40:49 <wpwrak> DocMobilizer: don't forget that boot loader and kernel can also get out of sync. so they should probably both do the init they believe is the best for them.
Jun 02 00:41:53 <DocScrutinizer> wait until mister G will see this mentioning of me in this commit, then prepare for revert
Jun 02 00:42:37 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: exactly what I stated ~10 lines above
Jun 02 00:44:24 <wpwrak> DocMobilizer: i only see that you agree that they use the same sources (i.e., they're synchronized at build time)
Jun 02 00:44:56 <DocScrutinizer> still I wonder if we could have a "OpenFirmware format" hw-init "script" in factory-partition (or any of the other ones), so uBoot(/Qi) could access same "config file"
Jun 02 00:45:28 <wpwrak> whoa, now we're talking complexity ! :)
Jun 02 00:45:32 <DocScrutinizer> as kernel
Jun 02 00:46:07 <wpwrak> besides, it wouldn't help. the configuration doesn't change by device but by time/development.
Jun 02 00:46:22 <DocScrutinizer> so what
Jun 02 00:46:42 <DocScrutinizer> update the factory parition init file, and fine U are
Jun 02 00:47:01 <wpwrak> so any qi/u-boot/kernel does as it knew best at compile time. if you're going to change some central config file, you may just as well rebuild or install some pre-built image
Jun 02 00:47:11 <wpwrak> naw, that just adds more moving parts
Jun 02 00:47:25 <wpwrak> it would give you just a few more failure modes
Jun 02 00:47:51 <DocScrutinizer> in the end I think it's fine if uBoot and ***kernel*** are doing correctly
Jun 02 00:48:20 <wpwrak> okay, it would prevent you from having boot loader do X and kernel disagreeing and do Y. but that only matters if the kernel makes assumptions about what the boot loader has done.
Jun 02 00:48:26 <DocScrutinizer> the uBoot issue is a niche problem
Jun 02 00:48:56 <wpwrak> also qi needs to do a few things, particularly if you expect it to make it into the kernel with a low battery
Jun 02 00:49:05 <wpwrak> (or just from usb power)
Jun 02 00:49:23 <DocScrutinizer> setting up charging luckily isn't one of them
Jun 02 00:49:50 <DocScrutinizer> maybe *disabling* charging is  ;-D
Jun 02 00:50:48 <DocScrutinizer> though I'd be *very* reluctant in disabling charger
Jun 02 00:52:24 <wpwrak> so would i, because this bit is only cleared in nopwer state. so the BUB can keep it alive
Jun 02 00:52:35 <DocScrutinizer> in the end we seen one of the big glitches was on re-enabling it :-S
Jun 02 00:52:45 <wpwrak> in hxd8, the reset button also shorted the BUB. actually a clever idea :)
Jun 02 00:52:56 <DocScrutinizer> looooool
Jun 02 00:53:37 <DocScrutinizer> hope U had a 10R to stop contacts from burning down ;-)
Jun 02 00:54:45 <DocScrutinizer> well, for GTA02 we don't need this. Seems all bupbat are broken from factory
Jun 02 00:55:01 <DocScrutinizer> my RTC not even survives 5min of bat out
Jun 02 00:55:32 * PaulFertser away
Jun 02 00:55:46 <DocScrutinizer> and nobody ever noticed - muahahahaaa
Jun 02 00:55:55 <DocScrutinizer> cya PaulFertser 
Jun 02 00:56:37 <wpwrak> yeah, the BUB is nasty. very fragile and virtually impossible to replace
Jun 02 00:56:40 <PaulFertser> Nobody knew it's supposed to keep time
Jun 02 00:56:59 <wpwrak> i do wonder if one shouldn't just use a supercap ...
Jun 02 00:57:30 <wpwrak> PaulFertser: i think it's mainly there to ensure your pmu configuration errors stay there to haunt you ;-)
Jun 02 00:57:49 <DocScrutinizer> wasn't that a smart EE called some name starting with j who suggested that a couple of months ago?
Jun 02 00:59:53 <wpwrak> DocMobilizer: we certainly discussed it. but weren't you in the end uncertain about it and considered just keeping the BUB the safer choice ?
Jun 02 01:00:37 <DocScrutinizer> maybe
Jun 02 01:00:48 <DocScrutinizer> dead horse
Jun 02 01:01:06 <wpwrak> i'm always on the lookout for gta02-core ideas ;-)
Jun 02 01:01:39 <DocScrutinizer> k, so I'll rethink it. Probably the issue was the PMU isn't specified for it
Jun 02 01:02:40 <DocScrutinizer> and for GTA03 we didin't need any bup[bat|cap] as bat was fixed
Jun 02 01:03:04 <wpwrak> (not spec'ed) yup, it isn't. so one would have to give it a try.
Jun 02 01:03:17 <wpwrak> (gta03) ah, right
Jun 02 01:03:32 <DocScrutinizer> exactly. This was against low-risk paradigme
Jun 02 01:03:44 <DocScrutinizer> (try)
Jun 02 01:04:49 <DocScrutinizer> we couldn't even hook up line-in to headphones-out via 1uF. "we don't need. Too high risk"
Jun 02 01:05:20 <DocScrutinizer> waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Jun 02 01:05:49 <wpwrak> better just ground everything. what doesn't move can't crash :)
Jun 02 01:06:00 * DocScrutinizer gets him a good gulp of maxim's unpronouncible belarus stuff
Jun 02 01:06:44 <DocScrutinizer> your idea to drown it in liquid copper still has it's attractivity
Jun 02 01:08:08 <DocScrutinizer> still they "grounded" it by their beloved 0R :-DDD
Jun 02 01:08:21 <DocScrutinizer> (line-in)
Jun 02 01:08:36 <DocScrutinizer> for GTA02 we have NC testpoints
Jun 02 01:08:53 <DocScrutinizer> so *that's* not high risk?!
Jun 02 01:09:03 <DocScrutinizer> oh gosh
Jun 02 01:29:48 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: you realized on one of the early gta03 protos (the square one iirc) OM EE took a try on "capless option"? They just left out the capacitors at all, didn't change anything else ;-P. There were long discusions if this actually might be a viable circuit option.
Jun 02 01:30:17 <DocScrutinizer> They suggested same thing for GTA02, by replacing the nasty 1uF by 0R
Jun 02 01:30:54 <wpwrak> hmm. and, is this viable ? sounds too good to be true :)
Jun 02 01:31:09 <DocScrutinizer> muahaha, kidding?
Jun 02 01:31:26 <DocScrutinizer> will cook your transducer and suck your bat
Jun 02 01:32:59 <DocScrutinizer> wm8753 / lm4753 would actually survivie as both have short circuit and overtemp prot
Jun 02 01:34:24 <DocScrutinizer> If this was a viable circuit all amps since 1955 would have been built that way ;-D
Jun 02 01:34:26 <wpwrak> what does the transducer actually do ? why can't we drive the speaker directly ? idem, why does there have to be a dc bias on that output ?
Jun 02 01:34:49 <wpwrak> yeah, i don't really understand why amps have to be so complicated :)
Jun 02 01:35:17 <wpwrak> is it because the field in the speaker "kicks back" ?
Jun 02 01:35:17 <DocScrutinizer> simply - you don't want DC component on transducer heating up the coil for nothing
Jun 02 01:35:43 <DocScrutinizer> that too, kinda
Jun 02 01:36:01 <wpwrak> so a) why do we output dc in the first place ?
Jun 02 01:36:08 <DocScrutinizer> DC would offset the membrane cone and coil, so it's pretensioned
Jun 02 01:36:12 <wpwrak> and b) what does the transducer do ?
Jun 02 01:36:41 <DocScrutinizer> a) because we have gnd and +3V3 and nothing else
Jun 02 01:37:09 <DocScrutinizer> b) it would jump out a whole bit of it's way, then get hot and break
Jun 02 01:37:33 <wpwrak> so keep signal A at (GND+3V3)/2, and vary B ? or drive them differentially around Vmid
Jun 02 01:37:51 <DocScrutinizer> axactly
Jun 02 01:38:10 <wpwrak> so, no DC needed. why is it still there ?
Jun 02 01:38:10 <DocScrutinizer> wm8753 is doing A for out3/out4
Jun 02 01:38:21 <DocScrutinizer> and B for speaker 
Jun 02 01:38:51 <DocScrutinizer> A is called "capless option"
Jun 02 01:39:33 <DocScrutinizer> but it can't be done by connectiong one of the speaker's/transducer's ends to GND
Jun 02 01:39:49 <DocScrutinizer> you need to hook it to out3/4 VMID for that
Jun 02 01:39:57 <wpwrak> okay, GND is rail, so that is clear
Jun 02 01:41:13 <wpwrak> so, what does the transducer do ?
Jun 02 01:41:28 <DocScrutinizer> transducer == speaker
Jun 02 01:41:47 <wpwrak> ah, okay
Jun 02 01:42:09 <wpwrak> so .. the common mode choke then
Jun 02 01:42:31 <wpwrak> (confused the name)
Jun 02 01:42:32 <DocScrutinizer> hehe, I didn't dare to start
Jun 02 01:43:28 <DocScrutinizer> common mode choke in L/R is due to L/R "is a differential signal" - even me can learn in his old years :-DDD
Jun 02 01:43:46 <wpwrak> so you mean it's useless ?
Jun 02 01:44:19 <DocScrutinizer> it's even bad. reducing channel separation
Jun 02 01:44:23 <wpwrak> ;-))
Jun 02 01:44:36 <wpwrak> so ... do we need any sort of choke there ?
Jun 02 01:44:57 <DocScrutinizer> not exactly there (layout-wise) afaik
Jun 02 01:45:18 <wpwrak> sometimes, when i look at these schematics, i think there are still a lot of things i don't understand, because what i see doesn't make sense.
Jun 02 01:45:39 <DocScrutinizer> I did a "RFC" for audio design and layout maybe a year ago. We never had any buzz if anybody would have listened
Jun 02 01:45:49 <wpwrak> what's scary is that they all too often seem to be things that i actually understand well enough ... and they really don't make sense :-(
Jun 02 01:46:14 <DocScrutinizer> yup - expect to be right almost every time then
Jun 02 01:46:22 <DocScrutinizer> as you probably are
Jun 02 01:46:46 <wpwrak> so ... choke is good (to keep HF out, I'd guess ?) but badly placed. also, speaker probably don't need one then, does it ?
Jun 02 01:47:17 <wpwrak> well, perhaps to reduce pollution if speaker is high-z
Jun 02 01:47:18 <DocScrutinizer> speaker doesn't (mandatory)
Jun 02 01:47:38 <DocScrutinizer> but we should have filters on all "ports" in / out of the can
Jun 02 01:47:43 <DocScrutinizer> all in my "RFC"
Jun 02 01:47:48 <wpwrak> (probably right) not sure if i should be scared :)
Jun 02 01:47:56 <wpwrak> (filters) yeah
Jun 02 01:48:20 <wpwrak> i did a happy little dance when i saw that gps tx/rx are unfiltered
Jun 02 01:48:22 <DocScrutinizer> lemme find the pointer
Jun 02 01:51:59 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: Re: [gta03] GTA03 6410 sch. Basic guidelines on decent audio-design; 2008-09-07 07:50
Jun 02 01:52:55 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: original msg: "Re: [gta02] audio quality on phone calls - EMI issue. ERRATUM"; Sa  14. Juni 2008
Jun 02 01:53:49 <DocScrutinizer> both "from: joerg"
Jun 02 01:54:49 <wpwrak> yup, i have it. hmm, separate audio can is out of our reach
Jun 02 01:55:05 <DocScrutinizer> this "RFC" includes all we found in lengthy tests for source of buzz-issue later on
Jun 02 01:55:54 <wpwrak> just looks like basic common sense :)
Jun 02 01:56:08 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: separate also can mean: have an additional steel wall inside the current can, dividing it into a digital and a audio section
Jun 02 01:56:45 <DocScrutinizer> it actually IS common sense. Not in TPE though
Jun 02 01:56:47 <wpwrak> (wall) hmm, that's about the same.
Jun 02 01:59:33 <DocScrutinizer> for gta03 they did same shit again: placed filters next to USB/hs, but B2B-connector went unnoticed, free to catch up any kind of radiation
Jun 02 02:00:05 <wpwrak> *grin*
Jun 02 02:00:23 <wpwrak> rename the nets to ANT_x :)
Jun 02 02:00:36 <DocScrutinizer> that's been about the point where I gave up on it
Jun 02 02:01:40 <DocScrutinizer> you can't employ kids to do rocket science, then complain the mentor didn't achieve to instruct them correctly
Jun 02 02:02:18 <DocScrutinizer> esp if they refuse to listen
Jun 02 02:03:05 <wpwrak> naw, you can always blame joerg (((-:C
Jun 02 02:03:30 <DocScrutinizer> joerg off for bed now
Jun 02 02:04:53 <wpwrak> untroubled dreams and thanks for the audio infos !
Jun 02 02:05:10 <DocScrutinizer> np, welcome :-)
Jun 02 02:05:15 <DocScrutinizer> and thanks
Jun 02 02:14:38 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: one for the night (to make things clear): I was talking about B4102, which clearly MUST NOT be common mode choke, but rather two separate beads
Jun 02 02:15:15 <DocScrutinizer> except if you assume L/R is a symmetric differential signal here ;-D
Jun 02 02:16:16 <DocScrutinizer> all the other common mode chokes are probably correct
Jun 02 02:16:39 <DocScrutinizer> (if they were placed right wrt layout)
Jun 02 02:17:41 <DocScrutinizer> at least you could reason about whether they are mandatory or "soda-bauteile (einfach so da)"
Jun 02 02:18:11 <DocScrutinizer> night
Jun 02 02:20:38 <wpwrak> (soda) hihi :)
Jun 02 02:20:51 <wpwrak> yeah,. B4102 is weird
Jun 02 02:21:07 <wpwrak> B4105 seems to make sense. it's mono after all.
Jun 02 02:21:55 <wpwrak> B3004 (front speaker) too. B3005 (mike) as well.
Jun 02 02:30:23 <DocScrutinizer> also regard resistive component of those components. and be aware they lose all their inductive properties when (and as long as) there's a high enoufgg (LF) current driving all the magnetic particles into saturated state
Jun 02 02:31:03 <DocScrutinizer> (resistive component == ESR)
Jun 02 02:37:59 <mwester> DocScrutinizer's comments bring back bad memories.
Jun 02 02:41:18 <wpwrak> mwester: just wait when we get to the point where we multiplex everything serial over a single UART ;-))
Jun 02 02:41:56 <mwester> giant minicomputer switching PSU (required two men to install) -- and a new, redesigned, much-lighter version that gave us nightmares in the field...  one of the problems in the new one was that they cut weight down by using physically smaller inductors.
Jun 02 02:42:30 <mwester> wpwrak,  I saved an emal from L-A-K-L; apparently I'm not the only one who's had nightmares with muxing RS232 :-D
Jun 02 02:43:23 <mwester> wpwrak,  but heck you can fix all this with the new gta02!
Jun 02 02:45:40 <wpwrak> mwester: well, some bits. i'm a bit wary that our BOM differences may get too long if we keep on optimizing. i already didn't like realizing that a cool BT design of GTA01Bv2 means that we can't reuse the GTA02 antenna :-(
Jun 02 02:47:04 <mwester> Yeah, I'm just joking -- in a lot of ways, better the devil you know -- there's really only a small number of things we can't work around in software at this point.
Jun 02 02:47:40 <wpwrak> (antenna) well, make this "probably". there may still be hope ...
Jun 02 02:47:54 <mwester> antennas are tricky little things, though.
Jun 02 02:47:58 <wpwrak> rm /dev.glamo :)
Jun 02 02:48:06 <wpwrak> s/.///
Jun 02 02:48:08 <mwester> you're not doing a form-factor change, are you?
Jun 02 02:48:26 <mwester> and +1 on the ex-glamo :)
Jun 02 02:48:55 <wpwrak> naw, identical form-factor. new case design has killed gta03-2442 and gta03-6410, i think that's enough :)
Jun 02 02:49:04 <mwester> hehe!
Jun 02 02:50:54 * DocScrutinizer asleep mumbles different notion about what killed gta03
Jun 02 02:54:06 <wpwrak> DocMobilizer: well, most of the reasons were closely related to the new case
Jun 02 02:55:58 <DocScrutinizer> more to the emotion coupled to it. it's hard to fight a sacrosanct design prerequisite
Jun 02 02:56:59 <DocScrutinizer> it's not been the case, it's been mayerhoffer and Sean who killed it
Jun 02 02:58:53 <wpwrak> sure. i believe that making a new case design is quite feasible. but i don't want to explore this entirely new territory for gta02-core.
Jun 02 02:59:23 <wpwrak> i would be very happy if someone started a parallel project that just plays with the case design, though
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jun 02 02:59:57 2009