**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jan 10 02:59:56 2010
Jan 10 03:04:16 <cz_jc> hi, any idea how many layers PCB of GTA02 has ?
Jan 10 03:04:17 <cz_jc> I
Jan 10 03:04:49 <cz_jc> sorry, typo. I'm wondering what kinda technology would it take to mount a S3c2410 successfully
Jan 10 03:15:02 <budfive> ~logs
Jan 10 03:15:04 <infobot> All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/channel, where "channel" is replaced by the URL-encoded channel name, such as %23freenode for #freenode. Lines starting with spaces are not logged.
Jan 10 03:52:16 <zing> i don't see the new update-alternatives-cworth... did it get pulled?
Jan 10 08:01:26 <DocScrutinizer51> yawn
Jan 10 08:18:31 <mrmoku> JaMa: hmm, can't see no updated u-a-cworth?
Jan 10 08:22:37 <DocScrutinizer51> actually the temporary irregularity seems to extent to a prolonged period. Grrr
Jan 10 08:26:37 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer51: :)
Jan 10 08:29:01 <DocScrutinizer51> s/extent/extend
Jan 10 08:34:55 <mrmoku> playya_: no fso-autorev in shr
Jan 10 09:45:04 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer51: morning :)
Jan 10 09:45:18 <DocScrutinizer51> moin
Jan 10 09:52:58 <ThibG> er... PIN entry doesn't show up...?
Jan 10 10:10:41 <Q-Master> morning guys!
Jan 10 10:11:36 <ThibG> hi
Jan 10 10:18:44 <daniele_athome> goodmorning!!!!!!!!!!!
Jan 10 10:18:54 <daniele_athome> since yesterday upgrade gsm doesn't work anymore!!! :)
Jan 10 10:19:00 <daniele_athome> ogsmd starts together with fsogsmd
Jan 10 10:19:20 <daniele_athome> fsogsmd is wrongly configured (error loading qualcomm shared library)
Jan 10 10:19:36 <daniele_athome> fsodeviced doesn't turn off bluetooth
Jan 10 10:19:40 <daniele_athome> and many other problems...
Jan 10 10:19:56 <ThibG> yeah
Jan 10 10:20:06 <ThibG> oddly, gsm works for me
Jan 10 10:20:16 <ThibG> not wifi, bluetooth or anything else, though
Jan 10 10:20:29 <daniele_athome> mmm
Jan 10 10:20:43 <daniele_athome> ThibG (hello) did you touched fsogsmd.conf?
Jan 10 10:20:59 <daniele_athome> (i'm trying with 2.6.31 kernel if it works)
Jan 10 10:21:01 <ThibG> I don't think
Jan 10 10:21:05 <ThibG> or it's not new
Jan 10 10:22:21 <von_fritz> i dont think that fsogsmd is ready for use it should be disabled 
Jan 10 10:22:23 <ThibG> didn't touch this file
Jan 10 10:26:08 <daniele_athome> when will fsodeviced work with 2.6.31?
Jan 10 10:26:22 <daniele_athome> it's about 3 months it prints the same error
Jan 10 10:26:26 <daniele_athome> something about alsa...
Jan 10 10:28:04 <ThibG> (plus, the bottom launchers are somehow becoming a keyboard)
Jan 10 10:28:14 <ThibG> (but that's another thing)
Jan 10 10:28:15 <daniele_athome> lol yeah
Jan 10 10:31:14 <von_fritz> ThibG chance theme until gry theme is adapted to recent ELF update
Jan 10 10:31:57 <daniele_athome> http://n2.nabble.com/New-significant-speedups-coming-to-FreeRunner-tp4274107p4274107.html
Jan 10 10:32:01 <daniele_athome> I think you should do it
Jan 10 10:32:10 <daniele_athome> kernel debug is useless to normal users
Jan 10 10:34:21 <PaulFertser> daniele_athome: it's what you think but not what those with a clue think when the users can't report anything meaningful!
Jan 10 10:35:23 <daniele_athome> PaulFertser, so include both kernels
Jan 10 10:35:33 <daniele_athome> and make an interface to change between them
Jan 10 10:35:42 <daniele_athome> so if the user really *wants* to report, it will use debug kernel
Jan 10 10:36:40 <ThibG> it hasn't been done yet? :o
Jan 10 10:37:40 <ThibG> I mean, kernel without debug features
Jan 10 10:37:57 <daniele_athome> ThibG, there is a user repository
Jan 10 10:38:14 <daniele_athome> ThibG: http://users.tkk.fi/~tajyrink/moko/kernel_20100108_nodebug_nopreempt/
Jan 10 10:38:37 <ThibG> ok
Jan 10 10:38:44 <ThibG> I thought it was already the case in SHR
Jan 10 10:44:09 <PaulFertser> daniele_athome: i refuse to discuss this any further!
Jan 10 10:44:40 <daniele_athome> PaulFertser, come on I just saying "do an interface for changing the kernel for lazy users which do not want to report"
Jan 10 10:44:46 <lindi-> gena2x: thanks a lot for looking into the different kernel configurations
Jan 10 10:44:51 <daniele_athome> it is so unclever?
Jan 10 10:45:32 <DocScrutinizer51> nopreempt??? WTF?
Jan 10 10:46:08 <daniele_athome> anyway there is a conflict since yesterday between fsogsmd and frameworkd
Jan 10 10:46:11 <daniele_athome> both tries to start
Jan 10 10:46:20 <daniele_athome> gsm doesn't seem to work in that way
Jan 10 10:57:40 <JaMa|GoNe> mrmoku: maybe you already had that upgraded yesterday?
Jan 10 10:58:03 <JaMa> mrmoku: which version do you have now?
Jan 10 10:59:02 <JaMa> mrmoku: INC_PR should be r4
Jan 10 11:00:05 <JaMa> mrmoku: ahh crap, you're right
Jan 10 11:00:42 <JaMa> mrmoku: on buildhost tmp/deploy/ipk/all/update-alternatives-cworth_0.99.154-r3.0.4_all.ipk
Jan 10 11:01:50 <mrmoku> daniele_athome: opkg -force-depends remove fsogsmd helps
Jan 10 11:02:04 <daniele_athome> mrmoku, eheh
Jan 10 11:02:14 <daniele_athome> for now I've just moved away the dbus service file
Jan 10 11:02:22 <mrmoku> JaMa: we have to exclude fsogsmd for now
Jan 10 11:02:32 <JaMa> why? what does it do?
Jan 10 11:02:49 <mrmoku> it starts automatically via dbus activation and conflicts with ogsmd somehow
Jan 10 11:03:11 <JaMa> mrmoku: can we just put fsogsmd disable=1 in frameworkd?
Jan 10 11:03:26 <JaMa> or it doesn't change dbus activation?
Jan 10 11:03:35 <mrmoku> hmm... don't know
Jan 10 11:03:37 <mrmoku> let me try
Jan 10 11:03:43 <JaMa> ah probably not.. ah its because we added those configs..
Jan 10 11:04:01 <JaMa> without them it was started but imediately finished because of missing configs
Jan 10 11:04:09 <JaMa> and that's why I haven't seen it
Jan 10 11:04:25 <mrmoku> yeah, but maybe putting disable=1 in fsogsmd.conf works...
Jan 10 11:05:35 <mrmoku> hmm
Jan 10 11:05:37 <mrmoku> probably not
Jan 10 11:07:11 <mrmoku> JaMa: we should probably just comment it out in task-fso2-compliance until mickey|bbl tells us that it might work on calypso :)
Jan 10 11:07:46 <PaulFertser> Gabrys: can you do opkg update again?
Jan 10 11:07:51 <Gabrys> ok
Jan 10 11:08:04 <daniele_athome> there is also a problem with fsodeviced I think mrmoku 
Jan 10 11:08:05 <PaulFertser> Gabrys: because fsousaged should be available from the repos.
Jan 10 11:08:24 <daniele_athome> bluetooth doesn't get deactivated at startup
Jan 10 11:08:24 <Gabrys> I'm doing update like every minute right now :D
Jan 10 11:08:42 <Gabrys> now "opkg install -force-reinstall fsousaged" ?
Jan 10 11:09:17 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r86c6a98300bb 10/fsodeviced/ (10 files in 7 dirs): 
Jan 10 11:09:17 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: fsodeviced: split alsa_audio into 'audio' and 'router_alsa' in order to
Jan 10 11:09:17 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: allow for further audio routing plugins
Jan 10 11:09:18 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r4baa67182b75 10/fsodeviced/ (20 files in 20 dirs): fsodeviced: fix make 'test'
Jan 10 11:09:20 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r1a96eba84dd3 10/fsomusicd/ (Makefile.am Makefile.decl data/Makefile.am src/Makefile.am): fsomusic: fix make 'test'
Jan 10 11:09:23 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r1068261125a1 10/fsonetworkd/ (4 files in 4 dirs): fsonetworkd: fix make 'test'
Jan 10 11:09:25 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: or opkg upgrade 
Jan 10 11:09:26 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r1d9a91695fcc 10/fsousaged/ (6 files in 6 dirs): fsousaged: fix make 'test'
Jan 10 11:09:29 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * re196f558fc8e 10/fsodeviced/src/lib/audiorouter.vala: fsodeviced: add audiorouter interface and base class
Jan 10 11:09:40 <PaulFertser> Gabrys: no, opkg update first
Jan 10 11:09:49 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: yes, done
Jan 10 11:09:54 <PaulFertser> Gabrys: opkg update will make opkg aware of all the current packages available.
Jan 10 11:10:03 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: even one more time 
Jan 10 11:10:23 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: and after update, opkg upgrade I guess
Jan 10 11:10:32 <mickeyl> mrmoku: right. it's not far from that but given my current workload i need some more weeks to fininsh that
Jan 10 11:11:21 <mrmoku> mickeyl: yeah, thought so :)
Jan 10 11:11:22 <JaMa> mrmoku: -cworth upgraded and e-mail sent
Jan 10 11:11:27 <mrmoku> root@om-gta02 ~ $ mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.ousaged /org/freesmartphone/Usage org.freesmartphone.Usage.ListResources
Jan 10 11:11:30 <mrmoku> ['Display', 'CPU', 'GSM', 'Accelerometer', 'GPS']
Jan 10 11:11:34 <mrmoku> missing bluetooth
Jan 10 11:11:41 <mrmoku> daniele_athome: that's why it is enabled I guess
Jan 10 11:11:45 <JaMa> mrmoku: cannot we just diable it somehow? like removing .service file for SHR?
Jan 10 11:12:01 <mrmoku> JaMa: that would suffice... but is it easier?
Jan 10 11:12:19 <JaMa> mrmoku: or move that config to /etc/freesmartphone/noused/fsogsmd.conf
Jan 10 11:12:35 <mickeyl> ya, best is move the config
Jan 10 11:12:40 <mickeyl> then i can tell people to move it back
Jan 10 11:12:42 <mickeyl> to try
Jan 10 11:12:45 <mickeyl> hmm, no
Jan 10 11:12:52 <mickeyl> dbus will still try to autoactivate it
Jan 10 11:12:58 <mickeyl> even if it does quit after start
Jan 10 11:13:00 <mrmoku> what about people wanting to try it with other modems that might work?
Jan 10 11:13:05 <JaMa> mickeyl: yes, but it will fail imediatelly
Jan 10 11:13:11 <ChristW> Anybody here who can help me with a b0rked SHR-U? I did an 'opkg update && opkg upgrade' yesterday, and now my FR won't boot any more.
Jan 10 11:13:20 <DocScrutinizer51> fsausage 
Jan 10 11:13:25 <daniele_athome> ti_calypso channel request timeout :(
Jan 10 11:13:33 <Gabrys> shouldn't fsousaged have an initscript?
Jan 10 11:13:35 <mickeyl> fsausage... Bonbon aus Wurst...
Jan 10 11:13:40 <JaMa> ChristW: read shr-devel list
Jan 10 11:13:44 <mickeyl> Gabrys: it doesn't need one, it's dbus system activated
Jan 10 11:13:48 <Gabrys> ok
Jan 10 11:13:50 <ChristW> JaMa: Ok, I will.
Jan 10 11:14:05 <JaMa> ChristW: whole thread HeadsUp*
Jan 10 11:14:28 <daniele_athome> ok working now
Jan 10 11:14:56 <ChristW> JaMa: Nabble doesn't seem to have a thread with that word in the title.
Jan 10 11:15:10 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: after /etc/init.d/frameworkd restart
Jan 10 11:15:12 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: frameworkd.subsystem ERROR    could not import server.py: an integer is required
Jan 10 11:15:23 <PaulFertser> ChristW: and yet it is there, just look for the recent messages in shr-devel
Jan 10 11:15:33 <DocScrutinizer51> *forget* nabble
Jan 10 11:15:42 <DocScrutinizer51> use pipermail!
Jan 10 11:15:47 <PaulFertser> Or gmane
Jan 10 11:16:27 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: and still errors about missing usaged
Jan 10 11:16:33 <JaMa> ChristW: [Shr-Devel] HeadsUp! Read this before opkg upgrade
Jan 10 11:16:40 <JaMa> ChristW: are you reading shr-user list?
Jan 10 11:16:45 <ChristW> Yes.
Jan 10 11:16:45 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: I mean warning about them
Jan 10 11:16:56 <JaMa> ChristW: I'll resent there..
Jan 10 11:17:21 <ChristW> Thanks!
Jan 10 11:17:36 <PaulFertser> Gabrys: check why it's not get started by dbus activation or something. 
Jan 10 11:17:55 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: how do I do this?
Jan 10 11:18:04 <JaMa> ChristW: http://www.mail-archive.com/shr-devel@lists.shr-project.org/msg01633.html
Jan 10 11:19:39 <mickeyl> ~lart GSM antenna vendors
Jan 10 11:19:39 * infobot lowers GSM antenna vendors's priority
Jan 10 11:19:49 <mickeyl> got me an external one
Jan 10 11:19:59 <mickeyl> came with a female FME socket
Jan 10 11:20:01 <DocScrutinizer51> infobot: sensible approach
Jan 10 11:20:06 <mickeyl> same as on my modem
Jan 10 11:20:07 <mickeyl> *sigh*
Jan 10 11:20:22 <ChristW> Aha, ok. So, how do I fix this with a non-booting phone, however :-) I can boot it a bit, but X doesn't start. Worse, it seems that the TCP stack is not fully loaded, and/or sshd isn't running...
Jan 10 11:20:50 <ChristW> I'm running Qi, so I can turn on debugging messages by holding Power. Doing that results in lots of text, obviously.
Jan 10 11:21:07 <PaulFertser> ChristW: use SD
Jan 10 11:21:09 <daniele_athome> ChristW, you will have to do it in computer
Jan 10 11:21:11 <daniele_athome> by using SD
Jan 10 11:21:25 <daniele_athome> *always* install unstable distributions on SD :P
Jan 10 11:21:27 <daniele_athome> ;)
Jan 10 11:21:36 <DocScrutinizer51> mickeyl: too bad those friggin adapters aren't to be found at next corner's utilities store
Jan 10 11:21:44 <ChristW> I'll see if I can find the original SD card. The one I';m using now isn't recognisez by my computer.
Jan 10 11:21:58 <Gabrys> *always* have at least two distributions or your phone :]
Jan 10 11:22:01 * ChristW should have taken a bit more sleep the last week...
Jan 10 11:22:05 <Gabrys> with chroot on each
Jan 10 11:22:07 <daniele_athome> Gabrys, that's right :)
Jan 10 11:22:12 <Gabrys> ;)
Jan 10 11:22:21 <daniele_athome> actually I have android on nand... :P
Jan 10 11:22:28 <Gabrys> m2
Jan 10 11:22:46 <ChristW> Perhaps I'll go for SHR-U on SD and Qt in Flash.
Jan 10 11:23:02 <DocScrutinizer51> eeeeeeeek
Jan 10 11:23:03 <daniele_athome> ChristW, that's another possible choice... the fact is that I love android :)
Jan 10 11:23:20 <DocScrutinizer51>  /kick android-user*
Jan 10 11:23:21 <daniele_athome> i'm copying it doing my own phone stack hihih
Jan 10 11:23:32 <daniele_athome> well i'm taking inspiration...
Jan 10 11:23:39 <daniele_athome> not copying exactly
Jan 10 11:23:59 * mickeyl adds ppp to calypso abstraction
Jan 10 11:24:32 <DocScrutinizer51> btw
Jan 10 11:24:56 <DocScrutinizer51> PaulFertser: have you unbanned that poor loser a few weeks ago?
Jan 10 11:25:14 <daniele_athome> DocScrutinizer51, who?
Jan 10 11:25:28 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer51: yep
Jan 10 11:25:31 <DocScrutinizer51> i can't remember
Jan 10 11:25:40 <DocScrutinizer51> PaulFertser: ok :)
Jan 10 11:26:05 * daniele_athome is trying to gettextizing mokosuite-vala
Jan 10 11:28:46 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: after recent opkg update and ugrade, phone still does not register to network
Jan 10 11:29:29 <PaulFertser> Gabrys: have you removed fsogsmd?
Jan 10 11:29:38 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: I don't have it
Jan 10 11:29:50 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: it was either removed by upgrade or I removed it
Jan 10 11:29:55 <PaulFertser> Gabrys: then read the log and wait for the folks to understand the problem and fix it.
Jan 10 11:30:40 <Gabrys> you mean post my log to pastebin
Jan 10 11:30:46 <daniele_athome> Gabrys, ps ax |grep fsogsm
Jan 10 11:30:53 <daniele_athome> if there is nothing, try to just restart frameworkd
Jan 10 11:31:10 * DocScrutinizer51 sighs in relief heretically, as he has another daily use phone now
Jan 10 11:31:15 <Gabrys> root@om-gta02 ~ $ ps ax |grep fsogsm
Jan 10 11:31:15 <Gabrys>  2286 pts/1    S+     0:00 grep fsogsm
Jan 10 11:31:25 <daniele_athome> Gabrys, ok restart frameworkd
Jan 10 11:32:01 <daniele_athome> HTF to compile with gettext damn!!! :S
Jan 10 11:32:10 <daniele_athome> i'm getting nervous lol
Jan 10 11:32:47 <Gabrys> daniele_athome: restarted
Jan 10 11:33:06 <daniele_athome> Gabrys, wait for sim auth window (if you have pin enabled)
Jan 10 11:33:20 <Gabrys> daniele_athome: no PIN
Jan 10 11:33:27 <DocScrutinizer51> :-/
Jan 10 11:33:30 <daniele_athome> ok so wait for network registration :)
Jan 10 11:33:48 <Gabrys> I can wait for ages, guys, it doesn't register :]
Jan 10 11:34:03 <Gabrys> I'll post the log to pastebin
Jan 10 11:34:13 <daniele_athome> Gabrys, post /var/log/frameworkd.log
Jan 10 11:34:25 <DocScrutinizer51> good plan ;-P
Jan 10 11:36:08 <mrmoku> JaMa: is it possible to set a provider to empty? palm pre does not build due to missing provider for alsa scenarii... but there is no such thing for palm pre (yet)
Jan 10 11:36:14 <Gabrys> daniele_athome, PaulFertser: http://pastebin.com/m7ebd86de
Jan 10 11:36:44 <DocScrutinizer51> if we define (quality of product) = (reliability of system) * (responsivenes and competence of hotline), then OM phones still are for on top of everything else ;-)
Jan 10 11:37:20 <DocScrutinizer51> s/ for on/ far on/
Jan 10 11:37:20 <infobot> DocScrutinizer51 meant: if we define (quality of product) = (reliability of system) * (responsivenes and competence of hotline), then OM phones still are far on top of everything else ;-)
Jan 10 11:37:45 <daniele_athome> Gabrys, seems it is not requesting gsm modem channel
Jan 10 11:37:51 <daniele_athome> it simply hangs there
Jan 10 11:37:58 <ChristW> Ok, SHR booting from SD :-)
Jan 10 11:37:59 <daniele_athome> in my case, i solved restarting frameworkd
Jan 10 11:38:07 <Gabrys> daniele_athome: I knew, you'll get it better than me :]
Jan 10 11:38:23 <JaMa> mrmoku: never tried empty provider.. but probably not
Jan 10 11:38:32 <daniele_athome> sorry I don't know how to help you anymore
Jan 10 11:38:32 <Gabrys> daniele_athome: I already restarted frameworkd :)
Jan 10 11:38:48 <daniele_athome> Gabrys, last chance: enable log_level = DEBUG for ogsmd in /etc/frameworkd.conf
Jan 10 11:38:53 <daniele_athome> and then repost log
Jan 10 11:39:02 <daniele_athome> (of course restart frameworkd)
Jan 10 11:39:02 <PaulFertser> Gabrys: hm, looks like fso-abyss doesn't work properly or something
Jan 10 11:39:08 <daniele_athome> PaulFertser, yeah
Jan 10 11:39:11 <JaMa> mrmoku: I guess that right fix would be (R)DEPENDS on alsa-scenarii only for devices supporting that
Jan 10 11:39:25 <DocScrutinizer51> s/restart X/reboot/
Jan 10 11:39:35 <mrmoku> JaMa: good idea... will try
Jan 10 11:40:34 <Gabrys> the log's getting big :]
Jan 10 11:41:17 <daniele_athome> Gabrys, delete it before restarting frameworkd
Jan 10 11:41:22 <daniele_athome> so you remove the old logs
Jan 10 11:41:26 <Gabrys> daniele_athome: I've done this
Jan 10 11:41:29 <daniele_athome> ok
Jan 10 11:41:48 <Gabrys> I'll grep out gpsd from log
Jan 10 11:42:01 <daniele_athome> ok
Jan 10 11:42:10 <Gabrys> it's more than 50% of it :]
Jan 10 11:44:16 <Gabrys> daniele_athome, PaulFertser: http://pastebin.com/m1783b171
Jan 10 11:45:07 <Gabrys> should fso-abyss be running as a deamon or something, or is it DBUS activated again?
Jan 10 11:45:47 <daniele_athome> Gabrys, I don't know
Jan 10 11:45:56 <daniele_athome> Gabrys, already tried to reboot the system?
Jan 10 11:45:58 <Gabrys> BTW, if you ask me, on hackable:1 GSM works, so it's not a h/w problem 
Jan 10 11:46:02 <Gabrys> daniele_athome: yes
Jan 10 11:46:10 <daniele_athome> sorry I really don't know :(
Jan 10 11:46:18 <daniele_athome> it just hangs when requesting channel
Jan 10 11:48:17 <PaulFertser> Gabrys: weird, looks like fso-abyss hangs...
Jan 10 11:48:50 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rbda068ec2cc4 10/fsogsmd/src/lib/atparser.vala: fsogsmd: atparser: gracefully ignore \r\n for solicited responses as well
Jan 10 11:48:51 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * raf1cc02bbb95 10/ (TODO docs/TODO): move TODO into docs directory
Jan 10 11:49:52 <JaMa> mrmoku: what was the decision about fsogsmd in SHR? move config/move .service/remove it?
Jan 10 11:50:59 <mickeyl> easiest is to remove the .service file for now
Jan 10 11:51:11 <mickeyl> then people can start it manually, if they want to play with it
Jan 10 11:51:14 <ChristW> JaMa: Ok, I now have a booted phone with SHR-U on SD. Can I now somehow mount my flash and fix the problems? Or can I somehow copy the 'right' parts of my system off flash to SD and re-flash with something else?
Jan 10 11:51:38 <PaulFertser> ChristW: there's instruction what to do in the mail he gave you a link to.
Jan 10 11:51:47 <JaMa> ChristW: yes its written in that e-mail
Jan 10 11:56:53 <Q-Master> ChristW: don't forget to add /dev/mmcblk0 to /etc/udev/mount.blacklist or else you'll end with garbaged rootfs because of double mounting.
Jan 10 11:57:18 <playya> moin
Jan 10 11:57:25 <lindi-> Q-Master: will kernel really let you mount it twice?
Jan 10 11:57:35 <Q-Master> lindi-: yep
Jan 10 11:57:52 <Q-Master> lindi-: already fallen to this situation.
Jan 10 11:58:09 <lindi-> Q-Master: with ext3?
Jan 10 11:58:12 <Q-Master> yep
Jan 10 11:58:22 <Q-Master> and fat32 on other partition
Jan 10 11:58:30 <ChristW> What is the file system type for /dev/mtdblock6?
Jan 10 11:58:40 <lindi-> ChristW: file -sL /dev/mtdblock6 to find out?
Jan 10 11:58:55 <Q-Master> ChristW: jffs2 i suppose
Jan 10 11:59:11 <ChristW> Yes, jffs2
Jan 10 11:59:39 <lindi-> Q-Master: are you doing this also on your PC?
Jan 10 12:00:18 <Q-Master> lindi-: nop. but there's no automounting on my pc.
Jan 10 12:01:05 <ChristW> Ok, it seems that I've fallen into the opkg update trap... init is indeed linked to ../bin/busybox...
Jan 10 12:02:07 <Q-Master> ChristW: if you are able to, you can relink it yourself and everything'll boot
Jan 10 12:02:20 <ChristW> Yes, I've re-linked it...
Jan 10 12:02:38 <Q-Master> ChristW: but anyway you'll need JaMa's help
Jan 10 12:04:39 <JaMa> lindi-: yes it will.. but it never broked my fs (sofar)
Jan 10 12:08:43 <lindi-> JaMa: how come this is not an issue on any other system?
Jan 10 12:09:18 <mrmoku> lunch time
Jan 10 12:09:19 <mrmoku> bbl
Jan 10 12:09:20 <Q-Master> JaMa: it brakes fat
Jan 10 12:09:21 <JaMa> lindi-: which system?
Jan 10 12:09:40 <Q-Master> and ext3 journal
Jan 10 12:09:43 <JaMa> Q-Master: ah.. no fat here.. just slim neo :)
Jan 10 12:10:11 <JaMa> Q-Master: ext3 journal only if you modify in both mounts, right?
Jan 10 12:11:13 <Q-Master> JaMa: not exactly. If you modified it at one mount, and dismounted it first. then dismounted second. -> journal broken
Jan 10 12:12:08 <lindi-> JaMa: any desktop pc out there?
Jan 10 12:12:41 <lindi-> Q-Master: are you sure kernel is not handling it as a bind mount?
Jan 10 12:12:59 <lindi-> sounds amazing that linux would let you read-write mount the fs twice
Jan 10 12:13:10 <Q-Master> lindi-: definitely. I have had such a brokes.
Jan 10 12:15:23 <JaMa> lindi-: what about desktop pc? I was talking about 2 mounts of same fs only on neo
Jan 10 12:15:34 <lindi-> JaMa: yes yes but why is the issue specific to neo?
Jan 10 12:16:25 <JaMa> lindi-: the issue for me is only because I have't disabled automounter completely on neo :/
Jan 10 12:49:13 <bumbl> hi folks - has anyone tested the qi-ubi + the latest lite-om-gta02.ubifs? is it as easy as to just flash?
Jan 10 12:50:28 <JaMa> bumbl: yes
Jan 10 12:50:54 <JaMa> bumbl: lite is the same as full wrt ubi
Jan 10 12:51:57 <GNUtoo> hi, there are 2 issues with the lastest SHR:
Jan 10 12:52:39 <bumbl> ok JaMa: and dfu-util is able to flash the ubifs image? and where is the difference between .ubi and .ubifs (except for some mb)
Jan 10 12:53:09 <GNUtoo> *xorg automatically founds device before the ones in xorg.conf:  the autodetection can be disabled with Section "ServerFlags" \n	Option "AutoAddDevices" "false"\n EndSection but external keyorads,mices won't work
Jan 10 12:53:14 <bumbl> JaMa: lite == full despite 30MB difference?
Jan 10 12:53:28 <GNUtoo> *the gry shortcut at the bottom of the screen doesn't work anymore
Jan 10 12:53:59 <GNUtoo> s/shortcut/shortcuts s/doesn't/don't
Jan 10 12:54:16 <JaMa> bumbl: wrt ubi.. I mean that ubi with lite will work exactly the same as with full
Jan 10 12:54:28 <JaMa> bumbl: included applications doesn't change it
Jan 10 12:54:33 <zoff99> hi guys
Jan 10 12:54:46 <GNUtoo> btw will the CONFIG_DEBUG_KERNEL be removed?
Jan 10 12:55:00 <JaMa> GNUtoo: see shr-devel
Jan 10 12:55:11 <bumbl> ah ok
Jan 10 12:55:12 <GNUtoo> all theses issues where with freerunner
Jan 10 12:55:15 <GNUtoo> ok I'll look
Jan 10 12:55:31 <JaMa> GNUtoo: and you're right about xorg devices.. hal was reeanabled in oe.dev few days ago.. and we should probably disable it in SHR
Jan 10 12:55:43 <GNUtoo> ok
Jan 10 12:56:02 <GNUtoo> the hal problem make the touch-screen uncalibrated
Jan 10 12:56:19 <zoff99> i am looking for a way to set shr-theme instead of theme-gry, without manual doing things. should be with script?
Jan 10 12:59:09 <JaMa> zoff99: shr-theme is just icons, isn't it?
Jan 10 12:59:30 <zoff99> e-wm-theme is also color and button and top-shelf
Jan 10 12:59:42 <zoff99> atm i can only change it by hand with "wrench"
Jan 10 13:00:37 <sybren> hey folks
Jan 10 13:00:49 <sybren> I have a conflict between libnl-nf2 and libnl2
Jan 10 13:01:02 <sybren> which one should I remove?
Jan 10 13:08:20 <sybren> ok, another upgrade fixed this. Now I only get a message about apm conflicting with fso-apm. It doesn't tell me why: "ERROR: The following packages conflict with fso-apm: apm"
Jan 10 13:11:23 <GNUtoo> also fso seem broken....I can't phone anymore
Jan 10 13:11:29 <GNUtoo> but I have to go to eat
Jan 10 13:12:45 <sybren> auch...
Jan 10 13:14:21 <spaetz> sybren, remove apm
Jan 10 13:14:25 <spaetz> fso-apm is what you want
Jan 10 13:15:20 <sybren> spaetz: problem is that "opkg remove apm" tells me it isn't installed...
Jan 10 13:17:24 <sybren> and after a reboot it doesn't seem to react to SSH via USB
Jan 10 13:17:28 <sybren> it does react to ping
Jan 10 13:18:12 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r5a287f02ef6e 10/fsogsmd/src/lib/ (5 files): fsogsmd: teach mediator to validate CONNECT responses
Jan 10 13:18:37 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r760b1acbe75d 10/fsogsmd/src/plugins/modem_ti_calypso/plugin.vala: fsogsmd: modem_ti_calypso: fix detection of context activation dial string
Jan 10 13:19:06 <spaetz> sybren, try to start openssh via loocal terminal?
Jan 10 13:22:43 <sybren> spaetz: I tried replugging the USB cable, now it no longer reacts to pings either... :(
Jan 10 13:23:30 <sybren> time to try another reboot
Jan 10 13:24:22 <bumbl> JaMa: i get a unable to mount rootfs when flashing the ubifs image and the ubi qi
Jan 10 13:24:39 <spaetz> sounds like an update gone very wrong :-(
Jan 10 13:24:44 <lindi-> mickeyl: hmm, you set nodefaultroute  in the same commit?
Jan 10 13:26:45 <gena2x> gena2x: hi, anything that have happy end is good :)
Jan 10 13:26:51 <gena2x> lindi-: ^
Jan 10 13:26:57 <mickeyl> lindi-: grrr, that hunk should not have been added yet. I'll reenable it soon -- although it's going to be in the final code as well, since I have a pppd plugin that reports back to fsogsmd about ppp's phase changes, and so fsogsmd will have control over the default route. 
Jan 10 13:28:24 <sybren> spaetz: SSH connectivity is back
Jan 10 13:28:25 <mickeyl> pppd's plugin capability is quite amazing actually
Jan 10 13:28:35 <sybren> spaetz: it helps when your shell is at the actualy computer the phone is plugged into
Jan 10 13:28:54 <spaetz> sybren, cool-. weird though
Jan 10 13:29:04 <lindi-> mickeyl: hardcoded /tmp/ppp.log is bit problematic? trivial symlink attack and no log rotation
Jan 10 13:29:40 <lindi-> mickeyl: wouldn't it be easier to have the whole pppd command in a config file?
Jan 10 13:29:41 <spaetz> mickeyl, do you know anything about the gsm failed to susspend issue, some have in shr-testing?
Jan 10 13:30:05 <spaetz> (which is basically shrr-unstable of dec 6)
Jan 10 13:30:20 <GNUtoo> I'll look at the logs
Jan 10 13:31:08 <sybren> spaetz: phonefsod logs a lot of "error: (0) Launch helper exited with unknown return code 127"
Jan 10 13:31:10 <mrmoku> is Łukasz on IRC?
Jan 10 13:32:22 <spaetz> sybren, im know nothing about phonefsod sorry
Jan 10 13:32:44 <mrmoku> sybren: that would be dbus failing to activate something...
Jan 10 13:33:11 <mrmoku> sybren: what does phoneuid.log say?
Jan 10 13:33:22 <mickeyl> lindi-: nothing set in stone yet, i'm planning to give full control over the pppd command in fsogsmd.conf
Jan 10 13:33:38 <mickeyl> spaetz: no idea offhand. do we have a log?
Jan 10 13:34:03 <lindi-> mickeyl: that would be nice, replacing default route was especially irritating
Jan 10 13:34:47 <spaetz> i can try to get sth, i experience it myself often.
Jan 10 13:34:59 <sybren> spaetz: [libphone-ui-shr]    WARNING: No such file or directory
Jan 10 13:35:12 <lindi-> mickeyl: is there some way to turn gprs off and go to suspend without having the phone wake up immediately due to late "NO CARRIER" message?
Jan 10 13:35:27 <sybren> spaetz: the line before that is "[libphone-ui]        MESSAGE: no vibrator configured - turning vibration off", not sure whether they are related though
Jan 10 13:35:31 <spaetz> but bssically i ´echo mem > /sys/power/state´
Jan 10 13:35:37 <lindi-> mickeyl: i currently wait for "ppp0" to disappear and then wait for a few more seconds
Jan 10 13:35:41 <sybren> more importantly, I get no SIM auth popup, so no calls
Jan 10 13:36:08 <spaetz> and the screen shows blah .....neo1973...-gsm failed to susspend
Jan 10 13:36:35 <spaetz> before going back to X
Jan 10 13:36:56 <lindi-> spaetz: you need to tell ogsmd that you are about to suspend
Jan 10 13:37:19 <lindi-> spaetz: (assuming ogsmd)
Jan 10 13:37:43 <spaetz> must be some software thing, as shr-unstable from sd card never has that.
Jan 10 13:37:43 <spaetz> lindi-, the same if i use fso dbus api for suspend
Jan 10 13:37:50 <spaetz> ie apm -s from fso-apm
Jan 10 13:38:45 <PaulFertser> spaetz: this message means the modem raised an interrupt even before the system actually suspended.
Jan 10 13:39:00 <spaetz> or the fsodeviced suspend call
Jan 10 13:39:46 <spaetz> can i get a debug log for that easily somehow?
Jan 10 13:40:03 <mickeyl> lindi-: we can forcefully deactivate the context completely. this should kill the late NO CARRIER
Jan 10 13:40:06 <PaulFertser> spaetz: hm, if you enable DEBUG for ogsmd and restart.
Jan 10 13:40:09 <GNUtoo> http://pastebin.com/m49ed9d7e 
Jan 10 13:40:11 <GNUtoo> still there
Jan 10 13:40:31 <PaulFertser> spaetz: but this is not a problem usually, you just try to suspend another time. The interrupt might happen if there's an incoming message or a call.
Jan 10 13:41:27 <lindi-> mickeyl: ah, how? ;)
Jan 10 13:42:39 <sybren> spaetz: running fsousaged gives me "error while loading shared libraries: libnl-nf.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory"
Jan 10 13:42:42 <spaetz> PaulFertser, basically it happens most of the time i try to suspend my shr-testing installation. autosuspend wwon´t work either then
Jan 10 13:42:55 <spaetz> which renders the installation pretty useless :-(
Jan 10 13:42:57 <PaulFertser> spaetz: well, i'd enable DEBUG for ogsmd
Jan 10 13:42:58 <mickeyl> lindi-: +CGACT, +CGATT
Jan 10 13:43:26 <mickeyl> i tried to do that in ogsmd months ago
Jan 10 13:43:42 <mickeyl> but it provoced the full hang due to that strange glib/glib-python/python bug
Jan 10 13:43:47 <mickeyl> that people are still suffering from
Jan 10 13:43:57 <mickeyl> i think in fsogsmd it will just work (TM)
Jan 10 13:44:23 <spaetz> i think fso started using a newer libnl
Jan 10 13:44:24 <spaetz> check if that file is provided by libnl (or libnl2)?
Jan 10 13:47:06 <spaetz> yay for fsogsmd :-)
Jan 10 13:49:14 <sybren> spaetz: it looks like the package libnl-nf2 is broken, by the name I would think it should contain the missing library, but it contains no files what so ever
Jan 10 13:50:29 <spaetz> that does sound broken. 
Jan 10 13:53:32 <sybren> spaetz: any idea who's capable of fixing this?
Jan 10 13:53:33 <spaetz> mickeyl ´fixed´ thaat recipe 6 days ago. perhaps sth wwent wrong
Jan 10 13:54:18 <spaetz> i´ve never touched that (don´t even know what libnl is for)
Jan 10 13:54:20 <sybren> I hope he can "fix" it again then ;-)
Jan 10 13:54:34 <spaetz> sybren, bug him ;-)
Jan 10 13:55:03 <sybren> mickeyl: *poke* :P
Jan 10 13:56:16 <sybren> mickeyl: running fsousaged gives me "error while loading shared libraries: libnl-nf.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory"
Jan 10 13:56:25 <sybren> mockeyl: it looks like the package libnl-nf2 is broken, by the name I would think it should contain the missing library, but it contains no files what so ever
Jan 10 13:56:56 <sybren> now I have to go, hopefully the cafe I'm going to (OSM newyear drink in Amsterdam) has wifi
Jan 10 13:58:28 <GNUtoo> so is the ogsmd problem fixed?
Jan 10 14:04:55 <mickeyl> sybren: is it not packaged?
Jan 10 14:07:51 <GNUtoo> mmm seem that sim is not ready
Jan 10 14:09:46 <GNUtoo> /org/freesmartphone/GSM/Device: GetAuthStatus failed: org.freesmartphone.Resource.NotEnabled (Resource Device is not enabled, current status is 'enabling')
Jan 10 14:11:56 <GNUtoo> is there someone there?
Jan 10 14:13:41 <mickeyl> sybren: install the libnl-nf package
Jan 10 14:15:19 <JaMa> mrmoku: I'm going to delete few old *ubi* images from buildhost.. ls *2009*ubi* *2010010[35]*ubi*, they were build with wrong params
Jan 10 14:16:21 <mrmoku> yeah, nuke them :)
Jan 10 14:16:57 <ThibG> I should really get a µSD...
Jan 10 14:17:38 <playya> mrmoku, do you use autorev for vala-dbus-binding-tool?
Jan 10 14:17:44 <JaMa> bumbl: because you flashed rootfs.ubifs instead rootfs.ubi?
Jan 10 14:17:52 <ThibG> so, all gsm/gps/wifi/bluetooth things are because of fsogsmd?
Jan 10 14:18:04 * JaMa knows that bumbl is not here anymore.. but maybe he'll check log later :)
Jan 10 14:18:32 <mrmoku> playya: don't think so
Jan 10 14:18:48 <JaMa> playya: no fso autorev in shr except config
Jan 10 14:18:54 <playya> then i can push my patch
Jan 10 14:19:34 <mrmoku> playya: the only things we have on autorev nowadays is our stuff
Jan 10 14:20:47 <JaMa> mickeyl: yesterday I've seen cheader_filename = "netlink/route/netlink.h") in libnl-2.0.vapi again :/ is it possible that this bug is back in newer vala snapshot?
Jan 10 14:23:17 <GNUtoo> I'll install libnl-nf2
Jan 10 14:23:51 <mickeyl> JaMa: no, i'm afraid something overwrite the newer vala
Jan 10 14:23:57 <mickeyl> i have all kinds of strange errors
Jan 10 14:24:00 <mickeyl> including a vanishing linux.vapi
Jan 10 14:24:08 <mickeyl> try removing all other vala versions but the newest
Jan 10 14:24:13 <mickeyl> perhaps something is broken wrt. preferred versions
Jan 10 14:25:08 <mickeyl> if you build the newer snapshot, then it's fixed again
Jan 10 14:25:21 <mickeyl> so something installs bogus outdated vapis into our staging area
Jan 10 14:26:01 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * r88ece85cfca7 10/debian/ (changelog control rules): Add debian/
Jan 10 14:26:02 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * rea6252adc1d7 10/debian/ (changelog compat vala-dbus-binding-tool.install): more debian/ stuff
Jan 10 14:26:03 <JaMa> ah, right
Jan 10 14:26:03 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * rb4f9a36bf21d 10/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Merge branch 'master' of fso:vala-dbus-binding-tool
Jan 10 14:26:04 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * r3320e5a2b6bb 10/debian/vala-dbus-binding-tool.install: Fix name of the .pc file
Jan 10 14:26:07 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * r3a3486a592e0 10/debian/control: Fix glib depency
Jan 10 14:26:09 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * r5cb5935021dd 10/src/vala-dbus-binding-tool.vala: Add class generation for interface
Jan 10 14:26:20 <JaMa> mickeyl: is there something like opkg files usable for staging in bitbake?
Jan 10 14:26:20 <playya> argh. *reverting*
Jan 10 14:26:58 <mickeyl> JaMa: perhaps if you're using packaged staging, but i don't know anything about that i'm afraid
Jan 10 14:27:07 <JaMa> mickeyl: because I've build only fso stuff after vala rebuild
Jan 10 14:27:14 <mickeyl> hmm
Jan 10 14:27:16 <GNUtoo> mmm I updated and no libnl-nf in opkg search
Jan 10 14:27:20 <JaMa> mickeyl: so its probably one of yours..
Jan 10 14:27:22 <mickeyl> ok, we need to check fso then
Jan 10 14:27:24 <mickeyl> yeah
Jan 10 14:27:30 <mickeyl> libnl2-nf?
Jan 10 14:27:31 <JaMa> mickeyl: checking libnl2 now
Jan 10 14:27:57 * mrmoku off to go sledge riding :P
Jan 10 14:27:58 <mrmoku> bbl
Jan 10 14:28:34 <GNUtoo> there is only libnl-nf2 not libnl-nf
Jan 10 14:28:52 <GNUtoo> and it's empty
Jan 10 14:29:24 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * r017f904eeb46 10/debian/control: 
Jan 10 14:29:24 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: Revert "Fix glib depency"
Jan 10 14:29:24 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: This reverts commit 3a3486a592e000ff1030f9cc7084fcb9916a5a3d.
Jan 10 14:29:25 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * rcd865aaa66ef 10/debian/vala-dbus-binding-tool.install: 
Jan 10 14:29:27 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: Revert "Fix name of the .pc file"
Jan 10 14:29:29 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: This reverts commit 3320e5a2b6bb0b95eef41e227608e49e9aa44dd1.
Jan 10 14:29:31 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * rf8e6d301e5af 10/debian/ (changelog compat vala-dbus-binding-tool.install): 
Jan 10 14:29:34 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: Revert "more debian/ stuff"
Jan 10 14:29:36 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: This reverts commit ea6252adc1d7ab5a3953d00f3a38fbcc0151a4d7.
Jan 10 14:29:48 <soltys> hm upgrade is safe ? (last time I'd upgraded few weeks ago) 
Jan 10 14:30:02 <playya> i should keep seperate branches for my debian experiments
Jan 10 14:30:55 <GNUtoo> soltys,asking is a good idea ....btw I don't think it's safe...fso device doesn't seem to work
Jan 10 14:31:09 <JaMa> GNUtoo: and libnl-nf2 is built from libnl1_git recipe right? libnl2 builds just this http://www.pastebin.cz/29978
Jan 10 14:31:46 <soltys> GNUtoo: on my current SHR wifi seams not to work (in settings I can't turn it on) ;)
Jan 10 14:31:56 <GNUtoo> I don't know from what recipe it's built
Jan 10 14:32:00 <ThibG> soltys, it's not. I should've asked too :p
Jan 10 14:32:15 <soltys> I've read -devel ml ;)
Jan 10 14:32:39 <soltys> that's why I asked ;)
Jan 10 14:35:55 <GNUtoo> but it seem so
Jan 10 14:35:59 <GNUtoo> according to the +
Jan 10 14:36:34 <GNUtoo> for instance linux-2.6.32+2.6.33-gitrsomething is a git 2.6.33 kernel
Jan 10 14:36:44 <GNUtoo> just that because 2.6.33 is not out yet
Jan 10 14:36:52 <GNUtoo> you keep the + for upgrading
Jan 10 14:36:57 <GNUtoo> but I bet you already know that
Jan 10 14:37:31 <JaMa> mickeyl: I'm rebuilding all fso again one by one and checking libnl-2.0.vapi between
Jan 10 14:37:42 <JaMa> mickeyl: first broken recipe is recipes/freesmartphone/libfsoframework_git.bb,
Jan 10 14:38:37 <mickeyl> hmm
Jan 10 14:38:46 <mickeyl> i have an idea
Jan 10 14:39:03 <mickeyl> we inherit vala
Jan 10 14:39:11 <mickeyl> and that one copies all *.vapi and *.deps over
Jan 10 14:39:28 <mickeyl> and something has an older libnl-2.0 
Jan 10 14:39:36 <mickeyl> which override the one from the newer snapshot
Jan 10 14:39:40 <JaMa> and I still have linux.vapi in staging
Jan 10 14:40:56 <JaMa> mickeyl: shouldn't be libnl-2.0.vapi removed from source repo then?
Jan 10 14:41:05 <mickeyl> yes and no
Jan 10 14:41:26 <mickeyl> i often use these to override the ones in the last vala snapshots
Jan 10 14:41:32 <mickeyl> when I'm preparing new work for upstream
Jan 10 14:41:34 <JaMa> but those 2 finds cannot vanish linux.vapi no?
Jan 10 14:41:47 <mickeyl> no, that one i think is still a mistery
Jan 10 14:41:55 <mickeyl> let me sync libnl-2.vapi everywhere
Jan 10 14:42:54 <JaMa> ok, I'll continue to check fso recipes for linux.vapi vanisher
Jan 10 14:43:08 <mickeyl> thanks
Jan 10 14:43:09 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rc227502c59f4 10/libfsoframework/vapi/libnl-2.0.vapi: libfsoframework: sync libnl-2.0.vapi w/ upstream
Jan 10 14:43:13 <JaMa> is it possible that its replaced with empty file or something?
Jan 10 14:43:25 <mickeyl> no, the file is really missing
Jan 10 14:43:31 <mickeyl> only linux.deps survives...
Jan 10 14:43:53 <JaMa> ok
Jan 10 14:44:34 <JaMa> I'll bump libfsoframework in sane-srcrevs-fso too
Jan 10 14:46:06 <mickeyl> thanks
Jan 10 14:51:57 <DocScrutinizer51> fsausage for vampi
Jan 10 14:52:28 * DocScrutinizer51 needs a sweety after lunch ;-)
Jan 10 14:52:55 * soltys needs lunch
Jan 10 14:52:57 <soltys> ;P
Jan 10 14:54:18 * JaMa needs nap after lunch
Jan 10 15:37:51 <graziano> http://petition.stopsoftwarepatents.eu/
Jan 10 15:40:33 <TAsn> graziano, "A software market environment is better off with no patents on software at all." I disagree.
Jan 10 15:40:55 <TAsn> we should stop the abuse in software patents
Jan 10 15:41:01 <TAsn> but not software patents completely.
Jan 10 15:41:20 <TAsn> I mean
Jan 10 15:41:44 <TAsn> a software patent (if not abused) is just like any other patent.
Jan 10 15:42:08 <TAsn> either you drop them all, or don't drop anyone.
Jan 10 15:42:15 <TAsn> but yes, the abuse must be stopped.
Jan 10 15:42:30 <TAsn> and more importantly, the CRAZY EULAs should die.
Jan 10 15:44:20 <PaulFertser> TAsn: it's easier to drop software patents first
Jan 10 15:44:31 <PaulFertser> TAsn: dropping all the patents is an unrealistic target.
Jan 10 15:44:48 <TAsn> PaulFertser, again, I disagree, I think patents are important.
Jan 10 15:44:57 <TAsn> they protect weak companies.
Jan 10 15:45:00 <PaulFertser> TAsn: for patent trolls, indeed.
Jan 10 15:45:12 <TAsn> if I invent something
Jan 10 15:45:17 <PaulFertser> TAsn: show me one real small weak company that actually benefited from patents lately.
Jan 10 15:45:18 <TAsn> I want to be able to produce and sell it
Jan 10 15:45:33 <TAsn> PaulFertser, EVERYONE
Jan 10 15:45:36 <TAsn> for instance
Jan 10 15:45:38 <PaulFertser> TAsn: that's the intention but i'm not sure in the modern reality patents are of any benefit to the "weakest".
Jan 10 15:46:01 <gena2x> where is my popcorn :)
Jan 10 15:46:11 <TAsn> the small weak israeli company that produced the new technology for movement detection that'll be implemented in the newest xbox
Jan 10 15:46:27 <TAsn> PaulFertser, sure they are.
Jan 10 15:46:28 <gena2x> oh, only small glass of juice here.
Jan 10 15:46:37 <TAsn> you think not
Jan 10 15:46:38 <TAsn> because
Jan 10 15:46:56 <gena2x> chiness will copy anything
Jan 10 15:47:02 <TAsn> nowdays, weak companies invent cool stuff, patent them, and the get bought by big companies
Jan 10 15:47:03 <gena2x> anyway.
Jan 10 15:47:14 <gena2x> so you have to keep secret, yes?
Jan 10 15:47:31 <PaulFertser> TAsn: i'm not sure your view reflects reality, sorry. I think we should ask raster about it.
Jan 10 15:47:39 <gena2x> why all that ndas?
Jan 10 15:47:48 <TAsn> so although the patent didn't let the weak company sell their product (they could have if they wanted), it did let them get bought for a lot of money :)
Jan 10 15:47:58 <TAsn> PaulFertser, I'm kinda not here anyway, so we'll just wait for him :)
Jan 10 15:48:02 <TAsn> brb
Jan 10 15:48:27 <gena2x> patent anyway intersting idea - it patents part of your brains
Jan 10 15:48:49 <gena2x> someone first tell you how thing done, than you can't yse it
Jan 10 15:49:06 <gena2x> but you can't stop thinking in that way
Jan 10 15:49:12 <raster> PaulFertser: eh?
Jan 10 15:49:15 <GNUtoo> TAsn, patents don't protect weak companies...because big companies and patent troll can atack weak companies...
Jan 10 15:49:16 * raster was summoned
Jan 10 15:49:46 <PaulFertser> raster: yeah, good morning :D
Jan 10 15:49:49 <TAsn> shit
Jan 10 15:49:51 <DocScrutinizer51> even me felt summoned somehow
Jan 10 15:49:55 <GNUtoo> TAsn, there is a RMS speech about software patents...it explain why small companies are squashed by big ones with the patent system
Jan 10 15:49:57 <TAsn> well, I'll only be back in 20 minutes :)
Jan 10 15:50:03 <GNUtoo> s/patent/software patents
Jan 10 15:50:23 <PaulFertser> raster: almost all agree that software patents suck and we should be better off without them. But what about those "ordinary" patents? Do they actually help innovation nowadays?
Jan 10 15:51:09 * DocScrutinizer51 schedules 120sec downtime and noise flood for roaming
Jan 10 15:51:41 <graziano> patents are not bad in general,  patents on *software* are bad
Jan 10 15:51:45 <raster> PaulFertser: very early morning indeed!
Jan 10 15:51:46 <raster> :)
Jan 10 15:52:13 <raster> PaulFertser: u mean non-software patents - do they really help innovation? i dont know
Jan 10 15:52:29 <PaulFertser> raster: i bet you know about it more than we all together
Jan 10 15:52:29 <raster> what i know is wrong is - the patent system is a thought and innovation stifling system
Jan 10 15:52:31 <gena2x> i guess yes
Jan 10 15:52:33 <raster> in this day and age it is.
Jan 10 15:52:53 <raster> if i sit downa nd come up with a solution to a problme - all on my own, i likely already infringe 1 2 or more patentsa
Jan 10 15:52:56 <raster> and i dont know it
Jan 10 15:52:59 <raster> i didnt steal any idea
Jan 10 15:53:08 <PaulFertser> TAsn: ^^^
Jan 10 15:53:12 <raster> i independently came up with the same solution
Jan 10 15:53:18 <raster> and THAT is fundamentally wrong
Jan 10 15:53:23 <gena2x> +++
Jan 10 15:53:50 <gena2x> nice point
Jan 10 15:53:54 <raster> that i can be punished for being innovative on my own just because i did the same as someone else - without knowing it until the legal papers arrive asking me to cease and desist or pay up.
Jan 10 15:54:09 <TAsn> raster, so you are against patents in general
Jan 10 15:54:12 <TAsn> not just software
Jan 10 15:54:19 <raster> its one thnig protecting oyur ideas/solutions from being stolen andthe "manufactured" cheaper without the r&d costs
Jan 10 15:54:28 <raster> but if u spent the rnd costs anmyway
Jan 10 15:54:32 <raster> and happened to do the same thing
Jan 10 15:54:37 <raster> being punished is wrong
Jan 10 15:54:43 <raster> and given how broad many patents are
Jan 10 15:54:46 <raster> and howmany of them there are
Jan 10 15:54:58 <raster> its simply insane to keep doing what is being done
Jan 10 15:55:06 <raster> so yes- i'm agtainst them in general
Jan 10 15:55:12 <raster> the core idea behind patents is nice
Jan 10 15:55:21 <gena2x> but it's easy to end up in conspiracy thoery here
Jan 10 15:55:30 <raster> protect the investment in coming up with te solutions to help foster peolpe coming up with solutions
Jan 10 15:55:35 <raster> as it now has intrinsic value
Jan 10 15:55:42 <raster> but as such - thats as far as the good idea went
Jan 10 15:55:48 <raster> the rest of it is a big fat fail imho
Jan 10 15:59:00 <DocScrutinizer51> now lemme check that backscroll for high spirited topics :)
Jan 10 15:59:25 <dos1> TAsn: what about fields and types in opimd? :P
Jan 10 15:59:26 <Q-Master> guys, is it safe to upgrade now?
Jan 10 15:59:32 <dos1> is posinsts script prepared? ;p
Jan 10 15:59:40 <dos1> s/posinsts/postinst/
Jan 10 15:59:40 <infobot> dos1 meant: is postinst script prepared? ;p
Jan 10 16:00:03 <TAsn> dos1, I'm not sure.
Jan 10 16:00:07 <TAsn> should ask mrmoku|away 
Jan 10 16:00:10 <TAsn> I'm terribly busy :(
Jan 10 16:00:15 <ThibG> Q-Master, don't think so
Jan 10 16:00:15 <TAsn> I already told mrmoku|away about it.
Jan 10 16:00:16 <dos1> i would like to implement new feature in opimd soon, but i don't know if i should sync my branch to master now
Jan 10 16:00:19 <TAsn> R/L is killing me.
Jan 10 16:00:34 <Q-Master> ThibG: ?
Jan 10 16:00:34 <dos1> well, it was too long time of my inactivity here
Jan 10 16:00:39 <dos1> so i have to do something ;)
Jan 10 16:00:43 <TAsn> dos1, either way, it's tested
Jan 10 16:00:55 <TAsn> I've been using it for a couple of weeks now
Jan 10 16:00:56 <TAsn> works great ):
Jan 10 16:00:59 <TAsn> :)
Jan 10 16:01:02 <TAsn> ciao again.
Jan 10 16:01:06 <ThibG> Q-Master, my wifi, gps and everything else are still down
Jan 10 16:01:10 <dos1> nice to hear :)
Jan 10 16:01:12 <Q-Master> heh
Jan 10 16:01:20 <GNUtoo> me too
Jan 10 16:01:28 <GNUtoo> I'll opkg update and upgrade again
Jan 10 16:01:56 <TAsn> raster, that's too bad. ;| As I said, they can protect you. You don't stand a chance against the big companies without patents. BUT yeah, the patent abuse is crazy, someone should really write patent guidelines :)
Jan 10 16:02:17 <TAsn> I don't know if you know
Jan 10 16:02:29 <TAsn> but there's a big isreali company (actually huge)
Jan 10 16:02:33 <TAsn> called "Teva"
Jan 10 16:02:34 <raster> TAsn:  guidelines are useless
Jan 10 16:02:41 <raster> it needs ENFORCING
Jan 10 16:02:43 <TAsn> they do "generic pharmacy"
Jan 10 16:02:53 <TAsn> raster, I meant enforced guidlines :)
Jan 10 16:02:55 <raster> ie tyruly novel/new/non-obvious/no prior art needs to be enforced
Jan 10 16:02:58 <TAsn> guidelines*
Jan 10 16:02:59 <raster> it isnt
Jan 10 16:03:11 <raster> pretty much anything u write on the patent u submit gets in
Jan 10 16:03:19 <raster> just get a lawyer to write it
Jan 10 16:03:29 <raster> even so
Jan 10 16:03:35 <raster> the sheer volume of patents is not sustainable
Jan 10 16:03:47 <raster> if there wree like a dozen approved each year - it'd be managable
Jan 10 16:04:02 <TAsn> anyhow, teva just wait for patents to expire and then produce the same medicine really cheap
Jan 10 16:04:10 <raster> people could actually follow patents granted and just avoid those solutions
Jan 10 16:04:14 <raster> as such its not possible to do that
Jan 10 16:04:18 <TAsn> teva is a multi-billion company thanks to that :)
Jan 10 16:04:21 <raster> so u will collide with a patent - without stealing it
Jan 10 16:04:28 <DocScrutinizer51> raster: lawyers won't obsolete their best business
Jan 10 16:04:35 <TAsn> ciao again.
Jan 10 16:04:36 <raster> DocScrutinizer51:  of course not
Jan 10 16:05:38 <DocScrutinizer51> so the alternative... obsolete lawyers >:-}
Jan 10 16:06:34 <DocScrutinizer51> actually I adore the chinese cloners for their merits wrt that :)
Jan 10 16:11:34 <dos1> JaMa: what about bumping elmdentica? [Rui] said that latest trunk should be stable and usable (now it doesn't work for me at all...)
Jan 10 16:12:39 <DocScrutinizer51> and the whole music maffia should sell option vouchers for next live concert with the albums. for one voucher with a low ser# you get 50% off the ticket fee. For 3 vouchers of last three albums you might get a vip ticket for free
Jan 10 16:13:03 <DocScrutinizer51> goodbye pirate mp3 downloads
Jan 10 16:13:59 <gena2x> is it possible to find werner on irc?
Jan 10 16:14:10 <DocScrutinizer51> wpwrak: ping
Jan 10 16:14:31 <DocScrutinizer51> or which werner u r talking bout?
Jan 10 16:14:46 <gena2x> you point right one, thanks
Jan 10 16:14:55 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * racfc8abd60b7 10/fsogsmd/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
Jan 10 16:14:55 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: fsogsmd: modem_ti_calypso: use own modem-default set of ppp options
Jan 10 16:14:55 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: NOTE: for system integrators, ppp options are overridable w/ ppp_options; handle this with extreme care though!
Jan 10 16:14:59 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r23295bb17bda 10/fsogsmd/src/lib/atmediators.vala: 
Jan 10 16:14:59 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: fsogsmd: atmediators: introduce checkResponseExpected that takes a number of AtResponse codes that are "OK"
Jan 10 16:15:02 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: NOTE: This is handy for commands where an AT error is not actually a real error, such as on some modems:
Jan 10 16:15:05 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: *) +CFUN if you're not authorized yet,
Jan 10 16:15:07 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: *) +CMGL if you don't have any messages
Jan 10 16:15:09 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * raf98523b03a5 10/fsogsmd/src/plugins/ (2 files in 2 dirs): fsogsmd: modem_cinterion_mc75: use MUX ppp here as well
Jan 10 16:15:10 <TAsn> dos1, here's mrmoku :)
Jan 10 16:15:40 <JaMa> dos1: sure why not..
Jan 10 16:16:12 <JaMa> dos1: but I've never used that..
Jan 10 16:16:36 <DocScrutinizer51> mickeyl: AT+PHASERGUN=ENABLE
Jan 10 16:16:49 <mickey|sofa> heh
Jan 10 16:16:51 <mickey|sofa> nice command
Jan 10 16:17:05 <gena2x> wpwrak: ping -s 65507
Jan 10 16:17:44 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: prolly too early for .ar
Jan 10 16:17:52 <DocScrutinizer51> for werner ;-P
Jan 10 16:18:10 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: he writing some mails
Jan 10 16:18:12 <DocScrutinizer51> on sunday even
Jan 10 16:18:36 <DocScrutinizer51> that's his avatar simulating he'd never asleep
Jan 10 16:19:09 <DocScrutinizer51> I guess a simple cronjob for sendmail
Jan 10 16:19:39 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: hmmm... this makes some things more clear...
Jan 10 16:19:52 <DocScrutinizer51> not a sophisticated AI like me
Jan 10 16:19:55 <DocScrutinizer51> oooops
Jan 10 16:51:41 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: can sendmail smoke something wrong?
Jan 10 16:52:31 * DocScrutinizer51 SIGSEGV in semntics analysis stage
Jan 10 16:52:56 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: i mean can something wrong be smoked by sendmail
Jan 10 16:53:32 <alphaone> gena2x: Explain what you mean by "smoked"
Jan 10 16:53:36 <DocScrutinizer51> moin
Jan 10 16:53:40 <alphaone> DocScrutinizer51: Hey
Jan 10 16:53:51 <alphaone> DocScrutinizer51: Your parser needs to be more robust
Jan 10 16:54:06 <alphaone> Don't you know you need to check all user input? ;-)
Jan 10 16:54:11 <DocScrutinizer51> my parser is fine, thanks alphaone 
Jan 10 16:55:01 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: ok, question cancelled as i can't translate it to english
Jan 10 16:56:03 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: I wasn't aware you had a question. Lets talk about it
Jan 10 16:56:51 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: is that a common problem with your unability to translate it into english?
Jan 10 16:57:25 <alphaone> gena2x: What is your native language?
Jan 10 16:57:27 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: my english is really bad :(
Jan 10 16:57:48 <gena2x> alphaone: russian
Jan 10 16:58:15 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: are you concerned about your english is really bad :( ?
Jan 10 16:58:57 * DocScrutinizer51 database restored. testmode->full blown fool
Jan 10 16:59:43 <DocScrutinizer51> wpwrak: ping
Jan 10 17:00:11 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: i already consulted with emacs psychotherapist on that topic, he thinks all ok.
Jan 10 17:01:12 <DocScrutinizer51> HEHE I'm *not* lisp based
Jan 10 17:02:14 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: this is your disadvantage, buggy letter generator.
Jan 10 17:02:43 <DocScrutinizer51> human touch
Jan 10 17:03:11 <DocScrutinizer51> first seen on drum commputers in the 80s of last century
Jan 10 17:05:42 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: what's the mail in question? Did werner tell nonsense?
Jan 10 17:06:34 <gena2x> gena2x: read openmoko-kernel
Jan 10 17:06:53 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: ^^^
Jan 10 17:07:43 * DocScrutinizer51 feels urged to start up his usual IT infra fnally, after move
Jan 10 17:09:10 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: ok here is link: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2010-January/010840.html
Jan 10 17:09:27 <DocScrutinizer51> coool thanks
Jan 10 17:13:56 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: don't thanks me for this link.
Jan 10 17:15:42 <DocScrutinizer51> well werner's mail is 100% backed up by my own notions. Can't find any small fishy detail in it
Jan 10 17:16:40 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: in fact, i am really scared. so many people around have similar opinion.
Jan 10 17:17:17 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: but this counter any sw development logic
Jan 10 17:17:29 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: maybe so many people seen the same issues Werner is mentioning in hos mail
Jan 10 17:17:40 <DocScrutinizer51> like vanishing race issues
Jan 10 17:18:12 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: maybe counter *your* logic.
Jan 10 17:18:19 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: following this logic, we should disable optimization forever.
Jan 10 17:18:37 <DocScrutinizer51> nope. that's not what werner said
Jan 10 17:18:42 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: as it has exactly same results.
Jan 10 17:18:54 <DocScrutinizer51> he wants a carefully optimized prod kernel
Jan 10 17:19:35 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: ok, if i am not trusted (this is ok, as noone knows me here)
Jan 10 17:19:43 <DocScrutinizer51> keeping as much debug and other convenience as reasonably defendable
Jan 10 17:19:59 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: i can cite the linux device drivers book
Jan 10 17:20:12 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: that's NOT an issue of trust
Jan 10 17:20:19 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: chapter 4 phargraph 3 'this features can create extra output and slow performance, so they tend not to be enabled in production kernels...'
Jan 10 17:20:35 <DocScrutinizer51> more an issue of bad experiences in the past
Jan 10 17:21:13 <naeg> how does it come that so many *.pc files are missing in SHR packages?
Jan 10 17:21:29 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: all this as if someone decide to remove optimizations from program. really. i've met such people
Jan 10 17:21:32 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: real hackers tend to disobey any general advice in books
Jan 10 17:22:15 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: if people can't listen me - i can understand this, so how can i convience them?
Jan 10 17:22:29 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: i am prove cite from other trusted sources.
Jan 10 17:22:34 <misc> well, optimisation can be removed the time stuff tend to be more stable 
Jan 10 17:22:35 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: how else?
Jan 10 17:22:36 <DocScrutinizer51> profile the penalty of debuging
Jan 10 17:22:44 <misc> nothing is unchangeable later 
Jan 10 17:23:14 <lindi-> gena2x: whom are you trying to convince here exactly? isn't it up to the user and distros to decide what kernel options they use?
Jan 10 17:23:41 <Q-Master> heh
Jan 10 17:23:46 * Q-Master upgraded
Jan 10 17:24:06 <gena2x> lindi-: here i have an example of people who have similar opinition linux werner.
Jan 10 17:24:08 <DocScrutinizer51> all wrrner is asking for is a list of performance penalties for each particular debug
Jan 10 17:24:10 <Q-Master> fso-abyss seems not starting automatically
Jan 10 17:24:31 <gena2x> lindi-: i thought from earlier discussions that you among them
Jan 10 17:24:39 <Q-Master> mickeyl: [1]+  Segmentation fault         fso-abyss
Jan 10 17:24:50 <lindi-> gena2x: if distros ship both normal and debugging version of kernel that should make werner happy?
Jan 10 17:25:04 <gena2x> lindi-: seem not
Jan 10 17:25:14 <lindi-> gena2x: well emacs starts a lot faster now thanks to your observation :)
Jan 10 17:25:19 <lindi-> gena2x: so i'm quite happy :P
Jan 10 17:25:28 <DocScrutinizer51> that should make gena2x happy. Not sure bout me or werner
Jan 10 17:25:33 <gena2x> lindi-: i am planning more :)
Jan 10 17:26:11 <lindi-> gena2x: i'm bit worried that you might uncover hidden bugs by removing debug code though :)
Jan 10 17:26:17 <gena2x> lindi-: so i want to convience people to have single opinion.
Jan 10 17:27:03 <gena2x> lindi-: yes, werner worry about this too. exactly in same was - 'why we should have faster kernel if slower one works'?
Jan 10 17:27:10 <DocScrutinizer51> won'T HAPPEN. i take pride in having my own opinion
Jan 10 17:27:15 <gena2x> lindi-: where might be some bugs...
Jan 10 17:27:21 <DocScrutinizer51> oops capslock
Jan 10 17:27:53 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: every non-dumb person may be convienced, it's ok.
Jan 10 17:28:21 <lindi-> gena2x: btw, what distro are you using on fr?
Jan 10 17:28:38 <gena2x> lindi-: debian of course :)
Jan 10 17:28:45 <DocScrutinizer51> and really incidentally this own opinion is almost identical with Werner's. Maybe due to identical background
Jan 10 17:29:18 <mickey|sofa> naeg: *.pc files are usually in the -dev packages
Jan 10 17:29:24 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: in fact almost all devs think the same. this worry me much.
Jan 10 17:29:24 <lindi-> gena2x: ah, time to join our secret #openmoko-debian maybe? ;)
Jan 10 17:29:37 <gena2x> lindi-: with pleasure :)
Jan 10 17:30:40 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: for me is like removing O2 and in favor of O1
Jan 10 17:30:52 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: I suggest you reread and newly try to *understand* werner's mail.
Jan 10 17:31:00 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: because we'll have fewer buggs.
Jan 10 17:31:31 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: and maybe do this a little less biased
Jan 10 17:31:39 * mwester thinks the proposal to strip out all debug from the kernel without figuring out which ones cause slowdowns is like American cars -- replace ALL instruments with "idiot lights" so that only the manufacterer can service them or diagnose the trouble with them, presumably because the average person won't pay the price for extra instrumentation. :(
Jan 10 17:31:39 <naeg> mickey|sofa: even not there. e.g. in lua5.1-dev seems to be no lua.pc file.(i don't know it for sure, i am just helping someone over at #freeyourphone)
Jan 10 17:31:52 <DocScrutinizer51> werner's concerns are absolutely reasonable
Jan 10 17:31:59 <mwester> werner is right.
Jan 10 17:32:14 <gena2x> you see..
Jan 10 17:32:22 <mickey|sofa> naeg: then it's an OE packaging bug
Jan 10 17:32:35 <DocScrutinizer51> mwester: hooray the cavalery
Jan 10 17:32:45 <naeg> mickey|sofa: ok thanks anyway
Jan 10 17:33:18 <gena2x> but i already answered all this concerns in my mails
Jan 10 17:33:21 <mwester> Cavalry?  :D  Naw, I'm just a rag-tag old man on a tired old horse, waving a stick about -- hardly noteworthy! 
Jan 10 17:33:33 <lindi-> mwester: average person in openmoko circles does not seem to really be reporting kernel bugs anyway unfortunately
Jan 10 17:33:48 <gena2x> 2 times...
Jan 10 17:34:46 <mwester> lindi-,  that is true, but to remove their ability to gain more info by following basic instructions is a problem.  Requiring kernel replacement is a barrier to entry that few users will undertake.
Jan 10 17:34:47 <gena2x> and ever here. just try to provide reason why not to change -O2 to -O1 on whole SHR
Jan 10 17:35:11 <gena2x> this will be exactly same reasons.
Jan 10 17:35:18 <lindi-> mwester: my worst bug at the moment is  http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket//2309  and i have no idea how to fix it
Jan 10 17:35:31 <gena2x> try.
Jan 10 17:35:32 <misc> does -O2 cause problem to debug ? 
Jan 10 17:35:38 <gena2x> sure
Jan 10 17:35:43 * mwester has been imprisoned by his job, and hasn't been keeping up with the kernel bugs. :(
Jan 10 17:35:45 <lindi-> mwester: well without ramconsole people don't see he panic messages anyway?
Jan 10 17:35:54 <gena2x> it's esier to debug noontimized code
Jan 10 17:35:58 <lindi-> mwester: or debug board
Jan 10 17:36:02 <mwester> You perhaps recall my objections to the "silent" qi?
Jan 10 17:36:20 * DocScrutinizer51 reminds his urgent recommendation to make ramconsole a default for current kernels
Jan 10 17:36:23 <lindi-> mwester: hmm not really, what was that about?
Jan 10 17:36:42 <gena2x> lindi-: i don't mind panic messages1
Jan 10 17:36:52 <gena2x> lindi-: i think they should be in kernel
Jan 10 17:37:40 <mwester> Oh, just conversations with Andy where I objected to the concept of the Qi "no user control and no user output" ideas -- similar to gena2x 's ideas, Andy also thought that hiding/removing stuff for the end user was a good idea -- My position was (and remains) that it is too early in development to hide debug options and info.
Jan 10 17:37:57 <gena2x> no, people you wrong!
Jan 10 17:38:06 <mwester> gena2x,  do you own a car?
Jan 10 17:38:16 <gena2x> had one
Jan 10 17:38:16 <mwester> Does it have guages, or just lights on the dashboard?
Jan 10 17:38:20 <lindi-> mwester: are you now commenting on the bug #2309?
Jan 10 17:38:54 <lindi-> mwester: i think Qi resume code is copy&pasted from u-boot and equally quiet
Jan 10 17:39:24 <mwester> Do you see the value of a guage to tell you that your car is about to overheat -- or do you rather have a light to tell you that your car has just overheated, without any warning at all, and no idea to know how MUCH it has overheated, to know if you can drive another mile to a service station or if you must pull to the side of the road and call for an (expensive) tow truck?
Jan 10 17:39:56 <gena2x> mwester: 'gauge'? my english don't know this word :(
Jan 10 17:39:58 <mwester> lindi-,  I'm commenting on Qi in general.  Andy eventually "saw the light" and options for alternative boot methods were added.
Jan 10 17:40:36 <lindi-> mwester: ok but i'm commenting on kernel debugging in general in this case, not many seem to be interested in fixing this bug
Jan 10 17:40:42 <lindi-> gena2x: meter
Jan 10 17:40:42 <mwester> gena2x,  an instrument with a needle or pointer to tell you a reading -- as opposed to an "idiot light" which just lights up to tell you that something went wrong.
Jan 10 17:41:02 <gena2x> mwester: ok
Jan 10 17:41:16 <gena2x> no you don't understand
Jan 10 17:41:22 <lindi-> mwester: if the "idiot light" version consumes less fuel then you might just want it :)
Jan 10 17:41:26 <gena2x> this is completely other thing
Jan 10 17:41:38 <gena2x> i'll try to tell. 
Jan 10 17:41:53 <gena2x> where is backtrace - single useful feature
Jan 10 17:42:10 <gena2x> most useful one. i am against it disabling.
Jan 10 17:42:19 <gena2x> as it is very useful
Jan 10 17:42:59 <gena2x> but we have ton other stuff enabled
Jan 10 17:43:12 <gena2x> like debugging info (kernel size x10)
Jan 10 17:43:18 <gena2x> like mutex debug
Jan 10 17:43:19 <mwester> lindi-,  but of what use is an idiot light to tell me that I am out of fuel?  I already know that because my car has stalled!  And even a low-fuel idiot light is silly.  I am suggesting that even if it costs some amount of power, begin able to diagnose a failure has value.   Once failures are extremely rare, then one can remove the debug code.  But I maintain that right now, failures of the kernel are rather common.
Jan 10 17:43:51 <gena2x> like spinlocks depth check
Jan 10 17:43:59 <lindi-> funny fact, the latest bug report that mentions "panic" but does not mention "lindi" is from 16 months ago
Jan 10 17:44:01 <mwester> gena2x,  then run experiments to quantify which sets of debuging are so expensive -- and only turn those off.  I think that is what Werner is suggesting.
Jan 10 17:44:58 <gena2x> and all this stuff can only help kernel developers with really buggy things
Jan 10 17:45:09 <mwester> This is not revolutionary thinking, this is just common debugging technique -- debug which options are consuming so much time/memory by experiment or other measurement.  That's all.  Right now the proposal is a guess.
Jan 10 17:45:27 <mwester> it may be that the guess is correct, but it is still a guess.
Jan 10 17:45:32 <gena2x> yes, in some cases if some spinlock debuggin can reveal problem.
Jan 10 17:45:57 <gena2x> but it's completely wrong to force all users to run in all the time
Jan 10 17:46:03 <mwester> Why?
Jan 10 17:46:48 <gena2x> because it slows down device
Jan 10 17:46:51 <mwester> The only users who continue to suffer with the hardware are hobbyists who should be willing to actively participate in debugging and testing -- there are no traditional "end-users" for the gta0x devices.
Jan 10 17:47:14 <mwester> They all gave up a long time ago, and probably all bought iphones. :(
Jan 10 17:47:28 <lindi-> mwester: people who want free software still exist :)
Jan 10 17:47:43 <mwester> Yep, but few of them find the gta0x acceptable.
Jan 10 17:47:51 <gena2x> mwester: this will not help them anyhow
Jan 10 17:47:57 <mwester> Right.
Jan 10 17:48:05 <mwester> So why are we bothering to discuss it?
Jan 10 17:48:05 <gena2x> mwester: this can help only in case of bug
Jan 10 17:48:17 <mwester> Which, I understand, happen very often.
Jan 10 17:48:30 <gena2x> mwester: i don't think so.
Jan 10 17:48:43 <gena2x> some people are working on high level stuff
Jan 10 17:48:49 <gena2x> they will no debug kernel
Jan 10 17:49:01 <gena2x> i think
Jan 10 17:49:26 <gena2x> why they should constatly pay that 1% for thing they never need?
Jan 10 17:49:38 <gena2x> this is like -O2 vs -O0
Jan 10 17:49:58 <mwester> But I have other things to do -- I regret that my current situation doesn't let me play with the gta0x and the kernel any longer. :(  I'll step out of the discussion, and let others decide what they want to do.  I build my own kernels anyway; I just hate to see others go down what I think may prove to be a wrong path without enough testing and experiments to chainge the guesses into facts.  Have fun!
Jan 10 17:51:43 <gena2x> nice talk :(
Jan 10 17:52:48 <mwester> Nobody is saying you are wrong, gena2x, they are only saying that somebody needs to provide more specific data.
Jan 10 17:53:36 <johnnymnemonic> so why not provide two kernel, one with and one debug-less ?
Jan 10 17:54:53 <gena2x> johnnymnemonic: people that debug-less kernel should still have features which are 'hot hurting'
Jan 10 17:55:00 <gena2x> s/hot/not/
Jan 10 17:55:06 <DocScrutinizer51> johnnymnemonic: it's not about providing alternatives, it's about which alternative should be default
Jan 10 17:55:09 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r8dacd2256553 10/libfsoframework/fsoframework/syncasync.vala: libfsoframework: add convenience function to wait a couple of seconds in mainloop
Jan 10 17:57:05 <gena2x> sure, it's possible to let every distributor make own change.
Jan 10 17:57:15 <gena2x> but this is bad situation i think.
Jan 10 17:57:42 <gena2x> as the distibutors think in werner's way.
Jan 10 17:58:05 <gena2x> excenpt panicking and radek
Jan 10 17:58:57 <mrmoku> gena2x: regarding debug info and 10x kernel size you are wrong
Jan 10 17:59:13 <mrmoku> oe splits the out the debug info into different packages
Jan 10 17:59:14 <gena2x> mrmoku: why? i checked modules size.
Jan 10 17:59:21 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: that's basically a very arrogant attitude
Jan 10 17:59:23 <mrmoku> at least it should
Jan 10 17:59:34 <DocScrutinizer51> you won't convince anybody this way
Jan 10 18:00:05 <gena2x> mrmoku: i think it can't split kernel modules
Jan 10 18:00:19 <mrmoku> JaMa: ^^ ??
Jan 10 18:00:26 <gena2x> mrmoku: do we have 2 kind of packages with kernel modules?
Jan 10 18:00:46 <gena2x> mrmoku: in fact i'm quite sure
Jan 10 18:01:23 <sybren> mickey|sofa: you suggested installing libnl-nf, but there is no such pacakge...
Jan 10 18:01:23 <gena2x> mrmoku: just go to openmoko and count size of you /lib/modules/version
Jan 10 18:01:39 <playya> anyone know what pulls /usr/include/SDL into libsdl-ttf?
Jan 10 18:02:02 <gena2x> gena2x: i meant go to freerunner
Jan 10 18:02:12 <mrmoku> gena2x: I would have thought so... obviously we don't
Jan 10 18:03:28 <mickey|sofa> sybren: strange, here i see libnl2-nf being produced by bitbake libnl2
Jan 10 18:03:29 <gena2x> mrmoku: i didnt really count on live freerunners. but i am quite sure all this stuff directly goes to memory with modules
Jan 10 18:03:52 <DocScrutinizer51> kernel devels "" gena2x, that sounds interesting but we have more concerns and we want finegrained evaluation of pros and cons ""     gena2x ""huh how can *all* kernel devels be uniformly wrong and ignorant soo much??""
Jan 10 18:05:04 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: exactly...
Jan 10 18:05:16 <DocScrutinizer51> "EIN geisterfahrer??? TAUSENDE!"
Jan 10 18:06:11 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: with only one note. expept most authorative kernel development book, panicking and may be radek
Jan 10 18:06:41 <sybren> mickey|sofa: libnl-nf and libnl2-nf don't exist, libnl-nf2 does, but contains no files :(
Jan 10 18:07:00 <mickey|sofa> hmm, that's sad
Jan 10 18:07:03 <mickey|sofa> can't reproduce it
Jan 10 18:07:07 <mickey|sofa> here I get libnl2-nf package
Jan 10 18:07:12 <DocScrutinizer51> the book wasn't developer of OM kernel. Werner partially was
Jan 10 18:07:18 <mickey|sofa> bbiab, dinner
Jan 10 18:07:35 <sybren> mickey|sofa: http://shr.pastebin.com/d726edcf7 shows all the packages I have that match 'libnl'
Jan 10 18:07:39 <sybren> mickey|sofa: enjoy your dinner ;-)
Jan 10 18:07:56 <mrmoku> bbiab, good night story :)
Jan 10 18:07:58 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: so he seems wrong. it's easily to see in speed tests.
Jan 10 18:08:21 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: and this is main problem.
Jan 10 18:08:26 <DocScrutinizer51> DARN. READ HIS MESSAGE THEN!!
Jan 10 18:09:22 <JaMa> playya: I have the same problem.. then I disabled that libsdl-ttf upgrade in shr, because I didn't have time to fix it..
Jan 10 18:09:29 <JaMa> playya: only koen could build it..
Jan 10 18:10:01 <playya> maybe remove libsdl-dev on the host?
Jan 10 18:10:03 <DocScrutinizer51> gena2x: which part of ""That's why I'm unhappy with the recommendation to just throw out all did you get wrong??
Jan 10 18:10:32 <JaMa> mrmoku: no, there was bug when modules were generated before packaged to .opk and modules.tgz, it should be fixed now (I've fixed kernel.bbclass with RP help)
Jan 10 18:10:46 <DocScrutinizer51> actually of the whole Rline paragraph which missed c+p
Jan 10 18:10:52 <DocScrutinizer51> 4line
Jan 10 18:10:53 <JaMa> playya: I asked koen about this.. and he said that he has sdl headers on his buildhost too
Jan 10 18:11:12 <playya> i think it depends on sdl-config
Jan 10 18:11:32 <JaMa> playya: yeah probably wrong sdl-config is called (not from staging)
Jan 10 18:11:51 <DocScrutinizer51> That's why I'm unhappy with the recommendation to just throw out all debugging in production kernels. I'd rather have a production kernel that does as much debugging as possible while still delivering good performance.
Jan 10 18:12:01 <DocScrutinizer51> is the full quote
Jan 10 18:12:21 <JaMa> gena2x: yeah we can decide to change it.. but when some users sent some bug related to kernel, we will depend on our kernel devs to fix it
Jan 10 18:12:48 <JaMa> gena2x: as we don't have manpower to check bugs in kernel or develop own patches
Jan 10 18:12:53 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: and THIS is wrong IMO.
Jan 10 18:13:17 <DocScrutinizer51> ok, you're nuts
Jan 10 18:13:26 * DocScrutinizer51 away
Jan 10 18:13:30 <ThibG> (hm, did you find out about wifi/bluetooth/... breakage?)
Jan 10 18:13:41 <JaMa> gena2x: so if they say, that they won't fix bugs in kernel if we strip info they want.. then we cannot do it in sane way
Jan 10 18:14:27 <gena2x> JaMa: i talk with paul and he was agree to solve this situation by reviewing all options to keep only backtraces.
Jan 10 18:14:49 <gena2x> JaMa: who finally is doing kernel development?
Jan 10 18:14:57 <sybren> DocScrutinizer51: AFAIK the only reason to remove debug info is to improve performance. If performance is no issue, I don't see any reason against keeping debug info.
Jan 10 18:15:20 <JaMa> gena2x: see commits in kernel repo.. most are from larsc, PaulFertser now
Jan 10 18:15:23 <gena2x> how performance can not be issue??????
Jan 10 18:17:17 <gena2x> JaMa: i saw only 1 fix since august in andy-tracking anyway
Jan 10 18:17:23 <playya> configure:20353: found /usr/bin/sdl-config
Jan 10 18:17:24 <playya> configure:20366: result: /usr/bin/sdl-config
Jan 10 18:17:35 <JaMa> gena2x: see also .31 and .32 branches
Jan 10 18:17:53 <playya> but if i use sdl-config with the same PATH it uses the  correct one
Jan 10 18:17:55 <sybren> help! I cannot run fsoraw anymore. "fsoraw -s -r CPU navit" gives me "fsoraw[3189]: Failed to invoke RequestResource CPU: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.Spawn.ChildExited, Launch helper exited with unknown return code 0"
Jan 10 18:18:14 <gena2x> JaMa: but this means no bug reported by users are fixed anyhow
Jan 10 18:18:26 <gena2x> JaMa: anyway
Jan 10 18:18:34 <JaMa> gena2x: they are much faster as I said in e-mail, but cannot be used by default before resolving last few issues
Jan 10 18:21:12 <gena2x> sybren: yes, debug info do not add problems with performance. it add size issue.
Jan 10 18:21:45 <sybren> gena2x: storage is cheap nowadays, there are 64 GB CF cards already
Jan 10 18:21:56 <JaMa> mickey|sofa: I've rebuild all fso recipes including some outside freesmartphone dir - every bb which puts something to vapi dir (libeflvala, libcanbera, ffalarms, libgee) and linux.vapi is still there and no difference to vapis from last vala (except new files of course)
Jan 10 18:21:58 <gena2x> sybren: memory not storage
Jan 10 18:22:50 <sybren> gena2x: right now it's all inconsequential to me, as my phone isn't working at all ATM :(
Jan 10 18:22:58 <JaMa> gena2x: why cannot you just run your tests while disabling debug options 1 by 1 (thats what wernel and paul asked, isn't it?)
Jan 10 18:23:40 <gena2x> JaMa: round 3: because we'll see nothing this wy
Jan 10 18:23:42 <DocScrutinizer51> YES!!!!
Jan 10 18:24:04 <DocScrutinizer51> then it's not worth the effort
Jan 10 18:24:09 <gena2x> JaMa: and this is wrong way by design.
Jan 10 18:24:39 <gena2x> JaMa: like 'why not to disable all -O2 optimization one by one and see effect'
Jan 10 18:24:39 <DocScrutinizer51> you're wrong way by argumetation
Jan 10 18:24:52 <JaMa> gena2x: so you've disabled CONFIG.*DEBUG.*UBI.*BGT too?
Jan 10 18:25:06 <JaMa> gena2x: ask max_posedon why this is bad thing..
Jan 10 18:25:18 <gena2x> JaMa: *UBI? *BGT?
Jan 10 18:25:26 <gena2x> JaMa: i think no
Jan 10 18:25:48 <JaMa> I don't remember exact name of that option
Jan 10 18:25:58 <JaMa> but it disables background thread in ubi
Jan 10 18:26:06 <DocScrutinizer51> JaMa: gena2x isn't going to ask anybody. As everybody not daccord with him is wrong by def
Jan 10 18:26:36 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: by which def?????
Jan 10 18:26:43 <JaMa> Ah right.. so I should try to do something more useless with my time :)
Jan 10 18:27:09 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: ask that?
Jan 10 18:27:14 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: that to do?
Jan 10 18:27:16 <Heinervdm> JaMa: you can try my elementary patch if you want to waste some time ;)
Jan 10 18:27:36 <JaMa> Heinervdm: what does it do?
Jan 10 18:27:47 <playya> the configure script uses the correct PATH
Jan 10 18:27:49 <Heinervdm> JaMa: adds calendar widget from morphis
Jan 10 18:27:50 <JaMa> Heinervdm: but I have quite a lot time wasters on my queue :)
Jan 10 18:29:12 <Heinervdm> JaMa: i have to talk to morphis and raster again, so that they include it upstream...
Jan 10 18:29:44 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: and this is my problem at this topic. people just tell me 'you wrong by definition, because we are right'
Jan 10 18:30:01 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: exaclty, thank you
Jan 10 18:30:04 <DocScrutinizer51> DARN. READ HIS MESSAGE THEN!!
Jan 10 18:30:17 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: really, i read
Jan 10 18:30:23 <DocScrutinizer51>  /ignore gena2x 
Jan 10 18:30:31 <gena2x> DocScrutinizer51: i even wrote answer
Jan 10 18:30:50 <gena2x> just wanted to discuss it......
Jan 10 18:33:02 <gena2x> damn definitions, sorry for wasting yout time
Jan 10 18:33:12 <playya> JaMa, what the path to /usr in staging dir? CROSS_STAGING_DIR/usr?
Jan 10 18:33:19 <gena2x> say it was nice to meet.
Jan 10 18:36:43 <max_posedon> -
Jan 10 18:36:44 <gena2x> I realise it was wrong idea to insist on my point of view and to convience anyone.
Jan 10 18:37:01 <gena2x> really sorry.
Jan 10 18:37:14 <gena2x> i'm off
Jan 10 18:38:38 <PaulFertser> gena2x: do you know where the bug list for kernels is?
Jan 10 18:38:58 <PaulFertser> gena2x: i think if there was an obvious bug that was worth fixing in andy-tracking, we would have fixed it.
Jan 10 18:39:23 <mrmoku> JaMa: ahh, ok thanks... remembered wrong then
Jan 10 18:39:42 <gena2x> PaulFertser: number?
Jan 10 18:40:09 <PaulFertser> gena2x: of what?
Jan 10 18:40:36 <gena2x> PaulFertser: oh, i didn't understand you.
Jan 10 18:40:53 <gena2x> PaulFertser: hi paul.
Jan 10 18:41:01 <PaulFertser> gena2x: you said that important kernel bugs do not receive attention.
Jan 10 18:41:08 <gena2x> PaulFertser: no
Jan 10 18:41:11 <PaulFertser> gena2x: i think it's not exactly so.
Jan 10 18:41:22 <gena2x> PaulFertser: i never said that.
Jan 10 18:42:32 <gena2x> PaulFertser: if you mean that performance is bug - this is only matter of taste
Jan 10 18:43:43 <PaulFertser> gena2x: ok, probably i misread that.
Jan 10 18:45:47 <gena2x> PaulFertser: wait, do you mean that if I'll write whole issue as a bug, you can fix it?
Jan 10 18:46:28 <PaulFertser> gena2x: well, let me explain me once more my position please
Jan 10 18:46:41 <gena2x> PaulFertser: sure
Jan 10 18:47:02 <PaulFertser> gena2x: there're two parts involved: first - technical merits; second - practical implementation.
Jan 10 18:47:09 <JaMa> mrmoku: I had patch for modules-dbg.*tgz too, but RP said its not worth having both so now is modules.*tgz packaged after stripping
Jan 10 18:48:15 <PaulFertser> gena2x: practically, only i and panicking care about andy-tracking, you can say we "maintain" it. Panicking is of more adventurous type, i'm sceptical and unsure type, also i like analysis, the deeper the better.
Jan 10 18:49:02 <PaulFertser> gena2x: my tecnical point about the issue was just expressed by Werner (wpwrak) the most elegant, understandable and convincing way, i've nothing to add. Now to the practical.
Jan 10 18:49:45 <gena2x> PaulFertser: ok, i've read which patches were applied by panicking :)
Jan 10 18:49:46 <mrmoku> JaMa: ahh, ok... so modules are stripped?
Jan 10 18:50:21 <PaulFertser> gena2x: after "end-users" heard your news about disabling debug, they all started to demand disabling. Implying me. It's implied that i should disable that without even evaluation for which i need time. That irritated me quite a lot.
Jan 10 18:50:26 <JaMa> mrmoku: yes should be.. (were after I checked after fix)
Jan 10 18:51:02 <PaulFertser> gena2x: so we might agree or disagree about particular features. But i didn't like end-users pushing me personally to a decision not thouroughly thought.
Jan 10 18:51:15 <gena2x> PaulFertser: in fact, if i give up in conviencing people do things in my way.
Jan 10 18:51:24 <gena2x> PaulFertser: without if
Jan 10 18:51:38 <PaulFertser> gena2x: sorry, please rephrase
Jan 10 18:51:49 <PaulFertser> gena2x: you didn't have to convince anybody, that's the point
Jan 10 18:52:15 <PaulFertser> gena2x: you reported quite important info, and i was and still ready to evaluate it more once i had some time.
Jan 10 18:52:22 <JaMa> ./oe-2009-11-23:01:52 < JaMa> RP: ahh found why file doesn't show stripped (after strip -g it says not-stripped after strip -s or without param it says stripped
Jan 10 18:52:26 <JaMa> mrmoku: ^^
Jan 10 18:53:03 <gena2x> PaulFertser: i mean as i give up in conviencing people that things should be done in some way, they should be done in other wy
Jan 10 18:53:11 <lindi-> JaMa: file is not really very sophisticated too for that :)
Jan 10 18:53:16 <JaMa> mrmoku: testing with file cannot say it its stripped or not, because OE strips only debug info not all
Jan 10 18:53:38 <gena2x> PaulFertser: problem was with werner
Jan 10 18:53:40 <PaulFertser> gena2x: you saw what Werner said, didn't you? 
Jan 10 18:53:52 <PaulFertser> He expressed just my thoughts in a clear and consistent way.
Jan 10 18:54:07 <PaulFertser> Trying to convince end-users that Werner is wrong is utterly unfair thing to do.
Jan 10 18:54:11 <PaulFertser> Like a dirty trick.
Jan 10 18:54:20 <gena2x> PaulFertser: yes. he wants to keep some options depending on performance test.
Jan 10 18:54:37 <gena2x> PaulFertser: no, i didn't try to convience end users
Jan 10 18:55:11 <gena2x> PaulFertser: just i new, that DocScrutinizer51 have similar point of view and tried to discuss this problem with him
Jan 10 18:55:25 <PaulFertser> gena2x: but the result is that end-users are pushing distro maintainers...
Jan 10 18:55:26 <gena2x> PaulFertser: to understand why people think so.
Jan 10 18:55:57 <JaMa> lindi-: right.. I don't remember what I tried instead.. but even diff was enough to see that it was not stripped before and then it was
Jan 10 18:56:00 <gena2x> PaulFertser: so, you think that i had to be shut up from begginning?????
Jan 10 18:56:11 <PaulFertser> gena2x: of course not!
Jan 10 18:56:30 <JaMa> lindi-: and now I just wanted to warn .. that checking on neo with file will say false positives about notstripped modules
Jan 10 18:56:57 <gena2x> PaulFertser: so, that's wrong with that i've mailed to the list my observations?
Jan 10 18:57:23 <gena2x> PaulFertser: and end-users read that list, and radek read it (is he end user?)
Jan 10 18:57:43 <gena2x> PaulFertser: how end-users related to problem?
Jan 10 18:58:29 <PaulFertser> gena2x: you expressed you results like disabling all debug immediately is a good and desirable thing to do. I guess it would be better if you said something like "to really understand the underlying issues and provide a solution that won't harm both the development and usage more tests are needed". But the message actually appeared on community was a bit too "exciting breaking-news like".
Jan 10 18:59:28 <PaulFertser> gena2x: well, when non-devs write on the kernel list that something should be done ASAP it's a bad sign, you know.
Jan 10 18:59:42 <gena2x> PaulFertser: but i really think that this is good idea and nobody even want to convience my because time so valuable.
Jan 10 19:00:10 <gena2x> PaulFertser: don't exacty don't want
Jan 10 19:00:30 <gena2x> PaulFertser: but just same arguments which i answered 5 times
Jan 10 19:01:20 <gena2x> PaulFertser: i can't be in charge that some user wrote some mail because he was really happy to see performance boost.
Jan 10 19:01:33 <PaulFertser> gena2x: you can't of course.
Jan 10 19:01:38 <PaulFertser> gena2x: and you shouldn't be
Jan 10 19:01:48 <gena2x> PaulFertser: so, why do think i am????
Jan 10 19:02:18 <lindi-> gena2x: calm down :)
Jan 10 19:02:36 <PaulFertser> gena2x: but it's just that you keep repeating "all kernel debug should be disabled and a separate debug kernel prepared because non-kernel-devs do not need _any_ debug options". It's that _any_ i question.
Jan 10 19:03:05 <PaulFertser> gena2x: you didn't prove that _any_ part anywhere, at least it seems so to me.
Jan 10 19:03:23 <gena2x> PaulFertser: paul, never said that!!! i told except backtrace!
Jan 10 19:03:27 <PaulFertser> gena2x: i say that probably some debugging option is beneficial to have in all the kernels.
Jan 10 19:04:11 <PaulFertser> gena2x: i thought we agreed to find out the most important options that should be kept and to redo the tests.
Jan 10 19:04:27 <lindi-> PaulFertser: hmm, normal distros on PCs surely don't ship with DEBUG_KERNEL=y?
Jan 10 19:04:29 <JaMa> gena2x: please try it with disabling options 1 by 1, I see that you have enough background to evaluate which option has possible biggest impact, so you can try first few and send results to list again
Jan 10 19:04:43 <PaulFertser> lindi-: i'm not really sure
Jan 10 19:04:55 <lindi-> JaMa: at least debian doesn't
Jan 10 19:05:03 <lindi-> JaMa: sorry, meant paul
Jan 10 19:05:19 <PaulFertser> lindi-: i see
Jan 10 19:05:30 <lindi-> or hmm!
Jan 10 19:05:47 <JaMa> gena2x: if you propose to disable specific option for few % gain, than its easier to evaluate and disable it, right PaulFertser?
Jan 10 19:06:05 <PaulFertser> JaMa: that's exactly the point
Jan 10 19:06:10 <lindi-> PaulFertser: this has changed recently.
Jan 10 19:06:20 <PaulFertser> JaMa: it's just that doing all the tests is a bit time-consuming
Jan 10 19:06:31 <lindi-> PaulFertser: debian etch has "# CONFIG_DEBUG_KERNEL is not set" in 2.6.18
Jan 10 19:06:36 <gena2x> PaulFertser: no
Jan 10 19:06:51 <PaulFertser> lindi-: 2.6.18 meh, who cares ;)
Jan 10 19:06:59 <lindi-> PaulFertser: debian lenny has "2.6.26-2-amd64:CONFIG_DEBUG_KERNEL=y"
Jan 10 19:07:09 <PaulFertser> lindi-: now you see ;)
Jan 10 19:07:12 <lindi-> PaulFertser: so maybe they enabled some suboption
Jan 10 19:07:20 <JaMa> gena2x: but if you say, remove all debug options now, no matter if they are expensive or not .. then it takes time for someone alse to evaluate them
Jan 10 19:08:12 <PaulFertser> gena2x: and, you know, no need to hurry anywhere, we're already fucking late
Jan 10 19:08:29 <JaMa> PaulFertser: I've seen few times from gena2x that things like mutex/spinlock debug have great impact.. so he can start with those 2
Jan 10 19:08:38 <gena2x> JaMa: not all!!!!!!!
Jan 10 19:08:45 <PaulFertser> JaMa: sure
Jan 10 19:08:56 <PaulFertser> JaMa: that would be might first suspects too
Jan 10 19:09:00 <PaulFertser> JaMa: also RCU
Jan 10 19:09:21 <JaMa> PaulFertser: and from my POV maybe the least impact on our bugs?
Jan 10 19:09:23 <mrmoku> http://pastebin.ca/1745843 is what fedora has enabled
Jan 10 19:09:34 <gena2x> lindi-: i posted debug state of debian .28 in one of mails.
Jan 10 19:09:44 <PaulFertser> JaMa: yep
Jan 10 19:09:55 <JaMa> PaulFertser: I mean that if there is problem with mutex/spinlock/rcu, then its probably not so gta specific
Jan 10 19:10:00 <gena2x> lindi-: in fact, i think exctly that options should be kept.
Jan 10 19:10:07 <lindi-> gena2x: hmm, debian does not have .28?
Jan 10 19:10:14 <PaulFertser> JaMa: probably they're good to keep when some new driver evaluation is going on.
Jan 10 19:10:32 <lindi-> gena2x: (searched for linux-image-2.6.28)
Jan 10 19:10:35 <gena2x> lindi-: sorry, .26
Jan 10 19:10:35 <GNUtoo> still no fix?
Jan 10 19:10:56 <GNUtoo> I will need to use my phone late today and shurely tomorrow
Jan 10 19:11:00 <sybren> hey folks. I still have issues with fsousaged, I posted it at #openmoko not to get swamped in this kernel discussion.
Jan 10 19:11:01 <gena2x> lindi-: no, i fact i downloaded one of arm kernels from pdo
Jan 10 19:11:18 <JaMa> PaulFertser: you mean for development (and ie in .31 and .32), or still for andy-tracking too?
Jan 10 19:11:19 <gena2x> lindi-: yes, really .26
Jan 10 19:11:42 <gena2x> lindi-: and checked options linux-image-2.6.26-2-versatile_2.6.26-19lenny2_armel.deb
Jan 10 19:12:10 <lindi-> gena2x: ok
Jan 10 19:13:08 <gena2x> lindi-: and propose to keep similar debug option in fact, and drop all others.
Jan 10 19:13:22 <gena2x> lindi-: without performance testing
Jan 10 19:13:47 <gena2x> lindi-: this is my real propose
Jan 10 19:16:00 <gena2x> PaulFertser: about agreement, yes, but as you were not working on this topic, and discussion went forward, and we talked that backtrace will be enought for you, i just took a look to debian kernel
Jan 10 19:20:42 <gena2x> PaulFertser: you right, late.
Jan 10 19:21:51 <sybren> isn't there anybody who can help me get my phone in a state where I can at least use it to make a call and send a text message?
Jan 10 19:23:33 <max_posedon> sybren, flash shr-unstable
Jan 10 19:24:14 <sybren> max_posedon: fair enough, if that's the way to go it's the way to go. Do you know where the contacts sqlite DB is stored, so that I can backup/restore it?
Jan 10 19:25:04 <Heinervdm> sybren: /etc/freesmartphone/opim
Jan 10 19:25:11 <gena2x> guy, really, really i didn't expected that this simple thing will generate so many buzz.
Jan 10 19:25:17 <sybren> Heinervdm: thanks!
Jan 10 19:25:20 <JaMa> max_posedon: if he has problem with newer FSO then flashing branch new image wont help
Jan 10 19:25:39 <gena2x> i'll proceed with options one by one and will post description to -kernel.
Jan 10 19:25:44 <playya> JaMa, take a look into patchwork
Jan 10 19:25:55 <sybren> max_posedon: I have no problem with newer FSO, my current installation has ;-)
Jan 10 19:26:07 <GNUtoo> sybren, me too I've issues...I can't make a phone call...should I join #openmoko ?
Jan 10 19:26:16 <JaMa> gena2x: great! looking forward for your results
Jan 10 19:26:31 <mrmoku> gena2x: good thing :)
Jan 10 19:26:33 <JaMa> sybren: busybox?
Jan 10 19:26:36 <max_posedon> soltys, I'll not update today)
Jan 10 19:26:36 <max_posedon> *so*
Jan 10 19:26:47 <sybren> GNUtoo: I posted at #openmoko because here people were so busy with a heated discussion about kernel & debug info, but this channel seems to be more appropriate for SHR ustable
Jan 10 19:27:05 <GNUtoo> ok I joined
Jan 10 19:27:17 <sybren> JaMa: no idea, I flashed SHR unstable a while ago and upgraded since
Jan 10 19:27:17 <GNUtoo> I am comiling a kernel without debug to see btw
Jan 10 19:27:24 <gena2x> may be at some time our view on this topic will became same :)
Jan 10 19:27:29 <GNUtoo> because tangogps & westnoth are too slow
Jan 10 19:27:46 <JaMa> sybren: did you "opkg update"?
Jan 10 19:28:03 <ThibG> wesnoth? Are you serious? :o
Jan 10 19:28:18 <JaMa> sybren: fsousaged was updated about 3 times last day+night.. so maybe its really not in feeds anymore..
Jan 10 19:28:44 <gena2x> but all you did and doing great job, for my phone, so it's not a problem for me to do that tests :)
Jan 10 19:28:48 <GNUtoo> JaMa, I have the problem too and one min ago I did that: opkg update && opkg upgrade and it wanted to install only a libwebkit something
Jan 10 19:28:55 <sybren> JaMa: for now it seems a good idea to revert to the latest image, and wait with updating for a few days until things have calmed down ;-)
Jan 10 19:29:20 <GNUtoo> I need the phone call functionality quick...
Jan 10 19:29:23 <JaMa> latest image from today?
Jan 10 19:29:29 <GNUtoo> ThibG, yes 
Jan 10 19:29:31 <ThibG> I'm indeed experiencing this things too
Jan 10 19:29:55 <GNUtoo> ThibG, I remember vaguely wesnoth beeing faster before
Jan 10 19:30:15 <ThibG> GPS/wifi/bluetooth (is that handled by fsousaged?) don't work... Well, with GUI
Jan 10 19:30:35 <ThibG> in addition, sliders can't turn on, it seems. At least in shr-settings
Jan 10 19:30:36 <JaMa> mrmoku: I'm cleaning some patchwork entries in OE.. can you quickly close yours? I tried but failed on first (about SCO routing, I'm not sure if it was applied later..)
Jan 10 19:31:40 <sanvy> hi al
Jan 10 19:31:51 <sanvy> hi all too :D
Jan 10 19:32:08 <sanvy> hi admiral0 !
Jan 10 19:32:12 <Heinervdm> http://patchwork.dev.bearstech.com/patch/571/ someone can close this one, there is no patch in it ;)
Jan 10 19:32:14 <GNUtoo> ok I'm fed-up of waiting for nothing...I'll try to work-arround disabling fsodeviced and enabling odeviced
Jan 10 19:33:00 <JaMa> Heinervdm: ok
Jan 10 19:33:05 <DocScrutinizer51> GNUtoo: upgrade? don't you know what upgrade does?
Jan 10 19:33:32 <mrmoku> Heinervdm: done
Jan 10 19:33:37 <mrmoku> JaMa: just registered to oe patchwork
Jan 10 19:33:40 <GNUtoo> DocScrutinizer51, I did that some seconds ago and noting came up
Jan 10 19:33:46 <DocScrutinizer51> how about downgrading fsodeviced (and possibly all the other pkgs of last upgrade)
Jan 10 19:34:01 <GNUtoo> I'll look
Jan 10 19:34:10 <spaetz> sybren, may i suggest shr-testing for a working phone innstalll :-)
Jan 10 19:34:43 <sybren> spaetz: last time I looked shr-testing was ancient - is it updated more regularly nowadays?
Jan 10 19:34:59 <DocScrutinizer51> spaetz: :-D
Jan 10 19:35:37 <spaetz> ancient! it is shr-unstable from dec 6
Jan 10 19:35:55 <sybren> spaetz: I didn't say I checked recently ;-)
Jan 10 19:36:26 <DocScrutinizer51> sybren: check #openmoko chantopic!
Jan 10 19:36:28 <sybren> but yeah, now that I'm going to reflash anyway I'll switch to testing ;-)
Jan 10 19:36:32 <spaetz> over-the-edge technology, daily updates, working phone. pick 2 out of 3 :-)
Jan 10 19:36:58 <spaetz> it will be upgraded about every 4-8 weeks :-)
Jan 10 19:37:17 <spaetz> i keep it as backup on my nand
Jan 10 19:37:21 <DocScrutinizer51> courtesy the incredible spaetz 
Jan 10 19:37:37 <sybren> :)
Jan 10 19:37:44 <sybren> I'll start testing testing then :P
Jan 10 19:37:54 <spaetz> hehe
Jan 10 19:38:52 <JaMa> Heinervdm: 571 is in "Not Applicable"
Jan 10 19:39:30 <Heinervdm> JaMa: i think mrmoku changed it just before you 
Jan 10 19:39:37 <JaMa> Heinervdm: I changed that few days ago, do you still see it?
Jan 10 19:39:53 <Heinervdm> JaMa: now it's gone
Jan 10 19:40:09 <Heinervdm> but 10 Minutes ago it was there
Jan 10 19:40:28 <JaMa> mrmoku: did you change 571 now or do I recall correctly? :)
Jan 10 19:40:35 <mrmoku> JaMa: sorry, yes
Jan 10 19:40:51 <JaMa> mrmoku: ah.. ok.. just my memory is failing somehow..
Jan 10 19:40:57 <mrmoku> just saw Heinervdm's request... and did it
Jan 10 19:40:59 <JaMa> so i closed some other :)
Jan 10 19:41:23 <mrmoku> TAsn: how do I add a translation to pyphonelog?
Jan 10 19:41:35 <TAsn> simple
Jan 10 19:41:39 <mrmoku> TAsn: or more precisely... how to generate the mo
Jan 10 19:41:39 <TAsn> you just mail dos1
Jan 10 19:41:40 <TAsn> :)
Jan 10 19:41:44 <TAsn> I have no idea :)
Jan 10 19:41:47 <mrmoku> hehe
Jan 10 19:41:51 <mrmoku> dos11: ping :)
Jan 10 19:41:58 <Heinervdm> mrmoku: msgfmt
Jan 10 19:42:00 <TAsn> if you look closely in the commit logs you'll see dos is our translation man.
Jan 10 19:42:15 <mrmoku> Heinervdm: thanks
Jan 10 19:42:22 <mrmoku> TAsn: I know :P
Jan 10 19:42:47 <TAsn> I don't care about translations (I hate the fact that people use languages other than english on computers) so I never bothered reading those manuals :)
Jan 10 19:44:19 <JaMa> TAsn: hehe, right! I hate the fact that people started to use special characters few centuries ago in my own country.. and now we all suffer from that..
Jan 10 19:44:36 <TAsn> EXACTLY!
Jan 10 19:45:06 <TAsn> Luckily, since the computer was invented, we in israel mostly dropped something called nikkud
Jan 10 19:45:07 <JaMa> TAsn: and its not so easy to revert that decision, lots of conflicts for rebase.. people write books and such using those characters..
Jan 10 19:45:26 * mrmoku has to go outside to adjust the satellite dish :|
Jan 10 19:45:36 <TAsn> which was our version of vowels
Jan 10 19:45:51 <playya> öäüß are really important letter. everyone needs them
Jan 10 19:45:52 <TAsn> it's terrible
Jan 10 19:46:06 <TAsn> it's really crazy to use :|
Jan 10 19:46:18 <sybren> TAsn: I think ASCII is ancient and everybody should have switched to Unicode years ago
Jan 10 19:46:28 <TAsn> sybren, duh
Jan 10 19:46:42 <TAsn> but only for specific history articles
Jan 10 19:46:51 <TAsn> or mathematical articles
Jan 10 19:46:57 <TAsn> other than that, everyone should use english ;)
Jan 10 19:47:10 <JaMa> TAsn: my sharp spitz has hw keyboard with japanese support.. (well just lots of modifiers and switches :))
Jan 10 19:47:15 <TAsn> sybren, All of my apps are unicode aware (utf8 I mean)
Jan 10 19:47:20 <sybren> TAsn: then I couldn't even type my last name
Jan 10 19:47:25 <TAsn> JaMa, lol.
Jan 10 19:47:40 <TAsn> sybren, I can't type my last name in ascii as well...
Jan 10 19:47:47 <TAsn> but I'm willing to change my name
Jan 10 19:47:48 <sybren> there are so many issues with UTF-8 being re-interpreted as Latin-1
Jan 10 19:48:10 <TAsn> in the name of science
Jan 10 19:48:10 <sybren> and it spreads, now I even get snail-mail to Mr. Stþvel
Jan 10 19:48:20 <JaMa> and that all is just for some basic language variant they use
Jan 10 19:48:29 <TAsn> sybren, that's because of idiots ;)
Jan 10 19:48:41 <TAsn> who don't use utf8
Jan 10 19:48:41 <sybren> TAsn: I agree :) but there are too many of them
Jan 10 19:49:12 <TAsn> there are many idiots who use proprietary software, do you want to conform to that as well? :)
Jan 10 19:49:28 <TAsn> *meant proprietary formats
Jan 10 19:49:43 <wpwrak> (thermal threshold woke me up from siesta. catching up ...)
Jan 10 19:49:43 <TAsn> doc/flash/etc
Jan 10 19:50:24 <JaMa> try this one :) http://www.háčkyčárky.cz/
Jan 10 19:51:12 <JesusMcCloud> aloha!
Jan 10 19:51:44 <JaMa> CSMA!
Jan 10 19:52:44 <sybren> JaMa: nice, less and less people want "special" chars in URLs
Jan 10 19:53:31 <JaMa> JesusMcCloud: are you from Hawaii or do you want to start flameware about media access control? :)
Jan 10 19:53:56 <JesusMcCloud> JaMa, nope... just in a tropical mood
Jan 10 19:54:07 <JesusMcCloud> ...that sounded straighter in my head
Jan 10 19:54:10 <JaMa> JesusMcCloud: good for you..
Jan 10 19:55:05 <JaMa> JesusMcCloud: btw: neo-theme stuff is still with LICENSE=unknown in OE repo.. did you choose some CC license? Maybe I shouldn't define it at all :/
Jan 10 19:55:55 <JaMa> sybren: yes.. but they still offer it and it works.. and domains with special characters are now cheaper here then normal ones.. :/
Jan 10 19:57:01 <ThibG> what do I have to backup if I want to reflash SHR unstable?
Jan 10 19:57:23 <JesusMcCloud> JaMa, leave it to unknown. i will change when i looked at it...
Jan 10 19:57:28 <JesusMcCloud> by the way can anyone point me to a doc where the latest efl changes are described (10 flaunch buttons in gry theme...)... id there is any doc
Jan 10 20:00:43 <JesusMcCloud> ThibG, what do you want to backup (everything will be overwritten wehn you reflash)
Jan 10 20:01:08 <ThibG> everything I may have changed
Jan 10 20:01:20 <ThibG> contacts, settings, messages
Jan 10 20:02:41 <ThibG> well, maybe I should just use my old phone and wait for the fixes...
Jan 10 20:03:00 <JesusMcCloud> ThibG, contacts, messages are stored in sqlite files in /etc/freesmartphone/opimd (or sth similar) settings is tricky. from what i read on ML fso config files got an overhaul
Jan 10 20:03:30 <mrmoku> PaulFertser: do you remember this one:
Jan 10 20:03:30 <mrmoku> sed -i 's/#SCORouting=PCM/SCORouting=PCM/' ${S}/audio/audio.conf
Jan 10 20:03:35 <mrmoku> is it still needed?
Jan 10 20:05:20 <ThibG> hm, are the bugs introduced by the last upgrade likely to be in SHR unstable by today or the day after?
Jan 10 20:05:29 <ThibG> tomorrow*
Jan 10 20:05:32 <JesusMcCloud> JaMa, according to the license chooser of cc, Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 is the license that fits best
Jan 10 20:05:53 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: as long as the default audio.conf has that line commented out, yes :)
Jan 10 20:06:20 <mrmoku> OE did not like my patch...
Jan 10 20:06:55 <ThibG> JesusMcCloud, for what?
Jan 10 20:07:03 <ThibG> (the license)
Jan 10 20:07:14 <mrmoku> JaMa: no idea what to do with that bluez patch...
Jan 10 20:07:16 <mrmoku> we want that
Jan 10 20:07:26 <JesusMcCloud> ThibG, i was talking to JaMa 
Jan 10 20:07:31 <wpwrak> ah, gena2x already left
Jan 10 20:08:00 <mrmoku> wpwrak: :)
Jan 10 20:08:19 <ThibG> neo-theme... ok
Jan 10 20:10:15 <JaMa> JesusMcCloud: oki, thanks (not sure if the LICENSE file needs to be in archive.. but I'll adjust bb files)
Jan 10 20:10:49 <JesusMcCloud> k
Jan 10 20:10:50 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: this patch is _device_-specific configuration
Jan 10 20:17:08 <ThibG> is there a convinient way to downgrade to before the last upgrade? Or at least see which packages were part of the last upgrade?
Jan 10 20:19:08 <mrmoku> PaulFertser: sure and I wanted to make the bluez config device dependent
Jan 10 20:20:14 <mrmoku> PaulFertser: http://patchwork.openembedded.org/patch/883/
Jan 10 20:21:20 <max_posedon> mickeyl, hi! last commit to mobile-broadband-provider-info was 2009-04-14, why fsodatad have MBPI_REQUIRED=20090918, may be I missing smth?
Jan 10 20:24:37 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: i'm not sure phil blundell is right
Jan 10 20:25:31 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: iirc absence of this option does nothing but _disabling_ some bluez apis. I.e. you can use any API you want with this option set but you're not allowed to use some particular call when it's unset.
Jan 10 20:25:40 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: it has no impact whatsoever on hardware.
Jan 10 20:26:01 <JaMa> playya: pushed thanks
Jan 10 20:26:30 <mrmoku> PaulFertser: hmm... what sense does that option have then anyway?
Jan 10 20:26:42 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: no idea, you should probably ask Marcel
Jan 10 20:26:49 <mrmoku> hehe... no :P
Jan 10 20:26:57 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: but i tell you for sure, it doesn't affect hardware.
Jan 10 20:27:16 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: the only way to detect the configuration automatically is _chip-specific_ even.
Jan 10 20:27:29 <mrmoku> PaulFertser: ok, so it would be fine if we enable it for SHR... independent of the actual hardware, right?
Jan 10 20:28:16 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: moreover with BlueCore chip set to route over HCI by default it still can be temporarily switched to route over PCM with a special HCI command (not implemented anywhere as of yet).
Jan 10 20:28:30 <JaMa> playya: can you look at http://patchwork.openembedded.org/patch/1114/ we pushed your similar patch.. can you check this one?
Jan 10 20:28:34 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: so, there's a chip. And it has EEPROM. In that eeprom there's this setting.
Jan 10 20:28:48 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: the setting in bluez is completely unrelated, just disables some dbus calls.
Jan 10 20:29:58 <mrmoku> PaulFertser: ok, thanks
Jan 10 20:30:08 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: i'm not sure if setting it the way you do now can in fact break any other machine. I think only absence of this option disables some calls, but not presence. And even if it does, it shouldn't since with our chip you have the ability to route both over HCI and PCM (if the eeprom is set to route over HCI by default).
Jan 10 20:30:33 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: the best idea is to ask Marcel or other bluez guys really, i can't see why you're reluctant.
Jan 10 20:31:56 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: so far all OE guys involved seem to misunderstand the true meaning of the option.
Jan 10 20:32:01 <mrmoku> PaulFertser: hmm... that would be #bluez?
Jan 10 20:32:12 <playya> JaMa, imho mine is better. it add 666 permissiond to the new file instead of 777
Jan 10 20:32:20 <playya> adds
Jan 10 20:32:28 <PaulFertser> mrmoku: right
Jan 10 20:32:53 <playya> can't remember which file it was, but afaik it doesn't require +x
Jan 10 20:38:54 <GNUtoo> mmm I'll try to bitbake that: libnfnetlink_0.0.39.bb
Jan 10 20:40:36 <GNUtoo> not that 
Jan 10 20:43:06 <GNUtoo> mmm it's in the git libnl2
Jan 10 20:43:08 <GNUtoo> but 
Jan 10 20:43:17 <GNUtoo> in your repo you only have -dev and -dbg versions
Jan 10 20:43:37 <GNUtoo> ah no sorrty
Jan 10 20:44:13 <GNUtoo> but they are not splited in your repo
Jan 10 20:47:21 <playya> bb should split them
Jan 10 20:49:05 <max_posedon> fso2: src/plugins/world/plugin.vala:26.20-26.38: error: The symbol `Data' could not be found class World.Info : FreeSmartphone.Data.World, FsoFramework.AbstractObject
Jan 10 20:49:27 <GNUtoo> the name of the package is libnl-nf2_1.9+gitr1+8808743839b0f459394ecd00cb0f7c1896c0ab7a-r0.4_armv4t.ipk
Jan 10 20:49:29 <GNUtoo> for me
Jan 10 20:49:32 <max_posedon> who can answer my many questions about fso2?
Jan 10 20:49:35 <GNUtoo> so libnl-nf2
Jan 10 20:49:39 <GNUtoo> and not libnl2-nf
Jan 10 20:50:20 <GNUtoo> but still made by libnl2 recipe
Jan 10 20:50:56 <GNUtoo> mmm but the one I downloaded is empty
Jan 10 20:50:57 <GNUtoo> strange
Jan 10 20:50:59 <GNUtoo> I'll look
Jan 10 20:51:49 <GNUtoo> I'll try something
Jan 10 20:54:16 <GNUtoo> opkg files libnl-nf2 => Package libnl-nf2 (1:1.9+gitr165+8808743839b0f459394ecd00cb0f7c1896c0ab7a-r0.4) is installed on root and has the following files:
Jan 10 20:54:24 <GNUtoo> no files shown up
Jan 10 20:54:26 <GNUtoo> but...
Jan 10 20:54:29 <GNUtoo> I reinstalled 
Jan 10 20:54:36 <GNUtoo> and it works now
Jan 10 20:55:14 <GNUtoo> (still show no files)
Jan 10 20:55:55 <ThibG> what works?
Jan 10 20:57:14 <GNUtoo> fso things that depended on libnl-nf2 but I'm waiting it for finishing to load
Jan 10 21:00:21 <GNUtoo> http://pastebin.com/m1f7d2e3e
Jan 10 21:00:29 <GNUtoo> fsousaged has a config issue
Jan 10 21:00:31 <GNUtoo> I'll look
Jan 10 21:01:28 <dos11> hmm
Jan 10 21:01:32 <dos11> NanoNote roadmap
Jan 10 21:01:34 <dos11> July 9 - 11, Poland, http://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
Jan 10 21:01:38 <dos11> nice :D
Jan 10 21:01:47 <dos11> mrmoku: pong
Jan 10 21:04:47 <dos11> sorry, have to go; good night!
Jan 10 21:09:15 <spaetz> shr-testing might want to disable so e kwernel debugging. i´d appreciate if someone sent a list of debugging ooptions and their impact.
Jan 10 21:09:55 <ThibG> nice... I've reflashed SHR unstable, and the wizard just locks up...
Jan 10 21:12:33 <ThibG> 'night
Jan 10 21:56:15 <sybren> hey all. I have a locale issue with shr-testing: http://shr.pastebin.com/d1a18767a
Jan 10 22:04:48 <sybren> nvm, eglibc-localedata-en-gb works
Jan 10 22:11:44 <GNUtoo> anyone there now?
Jan 10 22:11:45 <GNUtoo> http://pastebin.com/m68f8151a
Jan 10 22:11:49 <GNUtoo> I've that now
Jan 10 22:11:55 <GNUtoo> ogsmd problem
Jan 10 22:13:30 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: nothing more?
Jan 10 22:13:36 <GNUtoo> no
Jan 10 22:13:42 <GNUtoo> I can paste the full log if you want
Jan 10 22:14:00 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: one guy reported a problem like this today, for him fso-abyss didn't seem to do anything.
Jan 10 22:14:08 <GNUtoo> ok
Jan 10 22:14:23 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: i'd probably try to start fso-abyss manually
Jan 10 22:14:43 <GNUtoo> that's what I just did
Jan 10 22:15:21 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: with some debug enabled to see what it is actually doing
Jan 10 22:15:35 <GNUtoo> I've full debugging in the framework
Jan 10 22:16:20 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: i guess it doesn't affect fso-abyss
Jan 10 22:16:27 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: a separate process
Jan 10 22:17:59 <GNUtoo> --hep on fso-abyss start the process instead of displaying the help
Jan 10 22:18:55 <GNUtoo> s/hep/help
Jan 10 22:20:42 <GNUtoo> according to http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=fso-abyss.git;a=blob;f=src/main.vala;h=068455472d8be292614f27e3d222a71a67450d65;hb=HEAD it seems not to have any options
Jan 10 22:22:08 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: yes, i was looking at it right atm
Jan 10 22:22:09 <PaulFertser> :(
Jan 10 22:22:18 <GNUtoo> mmm
Jan 10 22:27:57 <GNUtoo> shat is ttySAC2?
Jan 10 22:28:56 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: port = /dev/ttySAC0
Jan 10 22:29:02 <GNUtoo> ok
Jan 10 22:29:04 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: is the modem on FR
Jan 10 22:29:06 <GNUtoo> because I had root      1392  0.0  0.3   1744   492 ttySAC2  Ss+  22:09   0:00 /sbin/getty 115200 ttySAC2
Jan 10 22:29:24 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rfd10d9d27755 10/fsogsmd/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): fsogsmd: modem_cinterion_mc75: this modem needs to be given the explicit context string otherwise it won't use the right context *sigh*
Jan 10 22:29:26 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r895565f6f7e9 10/fsogsmd/src/lib/muxppp.vala: 
Jan 10 22:29:26 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: fsogsmd: muxppp: fix hanging dbus pdp activation call; always remember that startForwardingPPP()
Jan 10 22:29:27 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: reroutes the mux channel to the ppp, hence if we do that too early we have no chance to parse the
Jan 10 22:29:30 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: actual 'CONNECT' response :)
Jan 10 22:29:33 <mickeyl> max_posedon: looks like your libfso-glib is too old
Jan 10 22:30:49 <mickeyl> GNUtoo: you're working with your FreeRunner again?
Jan 10 22:31:01 <GNUtoo> yes
Jan 10 22:31:06 <mickeyl> cool :)
Jan 10 22:31:06 <GNUtoo> at this time yes
Jan 10 22:31:14 <GNUtoo> I use it as a phone
Jan 10 22:31:30 <mickeyl> excellent
Jan 10 22:31:57 <mickeyl> in fsodeviced i have split audio routing from audio playing now btw.
Jan 10 22:31:57 <GNUtoo> mickeyterm --port  /dev/ttySAC0 works without a muxer right?
Jan 10 22:32:04 <GNUtoo> yes I saw that
Jan 10 22:32:10 <GNUtoo> ha fsodeviced
Jan 10 22:32:15 <mickeyl> so if we don't have alsa we can do the qdsp5 router
Jan 10 22:32:17 <GNUtoo> sorry I thought odeviced
Jan 10 22:32:19 <mickeyl> w/ ioctl
Jan 10 22:32:29 <GNUtoo> ok
Jan 10 22:32:35 <mickeyl> dev/ttySAC0 is pure AT, but only after power cycle
Jan 10 22:32:40 <GNUtoo> ok
Jan 10 22:32:44 <mickeyl> once you're in MUX, there's no way to go out 
Jan 10 22:32:44 <GNUtoo> I'll power it up
Jan 10 22:32:52 <mickeyl> you need to powercycle calypso to get back to AT
Jan 10 22:32:53 <GNUtoo> ah ok so reboot?
Jan 10 22:32:56 <mickeyl> no no
Jan 10 22:32:56 <GNUtoo> ah ok
Jan 10 22:32:59 <mickeyl> just sysfs dance
Jan 10 22:33:02 <GNUtoo> ok
Jan 10 22:33:07 <GNUtoo> I look in the logs
Jan 10 22:33:11 <GNUtoo> for the correct echo
Jan 10 22:33:46 <mickeyl> ppp is almost done in fsogsmd
Jan 10 22:34:01 <mickeyl> so i will hopefully have some time next weekend to do tests on the FR again
Jan 10 22:34:07 <Q-Master> PaulFertser: fso-abyss just segfaulting
Jan 10 22:34:09 <max_posedon> mickeyl, may be, I'll recompile it
Jan 10 22:34:58 <max_posedon> also now libframework from master doesn't compiles(links) for me, because not links with libnl
Jan 10 22:35:10 <mickeyl> you're not using OE, right?
Jan 10 22:35:16 <max_posedon> and in generated Makefile LIBNL_LIBS defined, but not used at all
Jan 10 22:35:19 <mickeyl> libnl2 contains a broken pc file
Jan 10 22:35:20 <max_posedon> I use gentoo
Jan 10 22:35:24 <mickeyl> you need to fix it
Jan 10 22:35:29 <mickeyl> see the patch i did against libnl2 in OE
Jan 10 22:35:48 <mickeyl> it just adds a couple of libs to the pc file
Jan 10 22:35:49 <max_posedon> ok, I'll try found it now, thanks
Jan 10 22:35:51 <mickeyl> np
Jan 10 22:36:02 <mickeyl> it's sad that so many projects are b0rken
Jan 10 22:36:06 <mickeyl> lots of time wasting on dependencies
Jan 10 22:36:13 <mickeyl> not being able to do actual work *sigh*
Jan 10 22:36:14 <mickeyl> sorry bout taht
Jan 10 22:36:36 <mickeyl> but that's what bleeding edge is about..
Jan 10 22:37:01 <PaulFertser> Q-Master: fso-abyss segfaulting for you?
Jan 10 22:37:05 <spaetz> true :-(
Jan 10 22:38:17 <Q-Master> PaulFertser: yep. tried to run it by hands and then restart frameworkd
Jan 10 22:38:39 <PaulFertser> Q-Master: after some update?
Jan 10 22:38:54 <PaulFertser> Q-Master: it'd be interesting to run it under gdb then
Jan 10 22:38:58 <Q-Master> after the latest one. several hours ago
Jan 10 22:39:02 <GNUtoo> echo 0 >/sys/bus/platform/devices/neo1973-pm-gsm.0/power_on 
Jan 10 22:39:10 <GNUtoo> echo 1 >/sys/bus/platform/devices/neo1973-pm-gsm.0/power_on
Jan 10 22:39:22 <GNUtoo> echo 1 > .../reset
Jan 10 22:39:27 <GNUtoo> and still not working
Jan 10 22:39:30 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: reset is not needed
Jan 10 22:39:44 <GNUtoo> ok
Jan 10 22:39:45 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: according to you log the modem is ok
Jan 10 22:39:50 <PaulFertser> GNUtoo: see what Q-Master says?
Jan 10 22:39:55 <GNUtoo> I'll read
Jan 10 22:40:25 <mickeyl> GNUtoo: mickeyterm -p /dev/ttySAC0 --rtscts
Jan 10 22:40:29 <mickeyl> don't skip the rtscts
Jan 10 22:40:33 <mickeyl> else you won't get data
Jan 10 22:40:35 <Q-Master> PaulFertser: I'll try now to start it under GDB
Jan 10 22:40:54 <GNUtoo> works
Jan 10 22:42:18 <CIA-52> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07libgsm0710mux * r7934196c47eb 10/gsm0710mux/ (channel.vala manager.vala): add option to ignore flow control (debugging ONLY, don't use that in production)
Jan 10 22:44:19 <Gabrys> PaulFertser: hi Paul, any chance, things will be going better with SHR now? I'm tired of hackable ;-)
Jan 10 22:49:32 <Q-Master> 2010-01-10T22:46:05.568768Z fso-abyss [INFO] : Binary launched successful (FsoFrameworkStdErrLogger created as theLogger)
Jan 10 22:49:32 <Q-Master> 2010-01-10T22:46:05.669698Z fso-abyss [INFO] : fso-abyss starting up...
Jan 10 22:49:32 <Q-Master> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
Jan 10 22:49:32 <Q-Master> 0x4003163c in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgsm0710mux.so.0
Jan 10 22:49:32 <Q-Master> (gdb) bt
Jan 10 22:49:34 <Q-Master> #0  0x4003163c in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgsm0710mux.so.0
Jan 10 22:49:36 <Q-Master> #1  0x401fb3a6 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
Jan 10 22:51:56 <Q-Master> PaulFertser: see
Jan 10 22:52:33 <PaulFertser> mickeyl: ^^ see? ;)
Jan 10 22:52:40 <mickeyl> heh
Jan 10 22:52:51 <GNUtoo> mmm
Jan 10 22:52:52 <mickeyl> terribly sorry, but without debugging symbols I'm a blind man
Jan 10 22:53:02 <GNUtoo> I got it working I don't know how
Jan 10 22:54:01 <mickeyl> hehe
Jan 10 22:54:09 <Q-Master> mickeyl: sorry, I have no db 8(
Jan 10 22:54:18 <mickeyl> try to install it
Jan 10 22:54:33 <mickeyl> OE emits -dbg packages
Jan 10 22:54:59 <PaulFertser> Q-Master: yep, there's package like fsoabyss-dbg that is automatically used to provide debugging symbols.
Jan 10 22:55:04 <Q-Master> mickeyl: not now. it's almost 2:00 here. I'm almost sleeping at the kb 8)
Jan 10 22:55:12 <mickeyl> tomorrow is always a new day :)
Jan 10 22:55:42 <mickeyl> now that i can do almost everything on the workstation, i spend less time doing system integration on arm. Will do soon again
Jan 10 22:55:51 <GNUtoo> mickeyl, maybe it used gsmsomethingmuxd
Jan 10 22:55:55 <GNUtoo> I'll look
Jan 10 22:56:21 <mickeyl> alan cox promised me a 07.10 kernel driver some months ago
Jan 10 22:56:29 <mickeyl> does seem like a tougher job than expected...
Jan 10 22:56:35 <mickeyl> oh the silence...
Jan 10 22:56:43 <playya> for app devs it might  be useful to have gabriel in the image
Jan 10 22:56:49 <mickeyl> yeah
Jan 10 22:57:35 <mickeyl> what's this benchmark thing again?
Jan 10 22:57:38 <mickeyl> beagle?
Jan 10 22:57:46 <mickeyl> i want to do some ogsmd / fsogsmd comparisons
Jan 10 22:58:36 <playya> i read sth about a new lib which does the same
Jan 10 22:58:49 <playya> i thought about a libgabriel2
Jan 10 22:59:00 <playya> that you can connect from a device
Jan 10 22:59:03 <playya> ehh app
Jan 10 22:59:08 <mickeyl> transparently?
Jan 10 22:59:09 <GNUtoo> I'll reboot the phone
Jan 10 22:59:29 <playya> and my dreams about my openmoko-applet comes true
Jan 10 22:59:38 <mickeyl> yeah
Jan 10 22:59:39 <playya> yes
Jan 10 22:59:42 <mickeyl> cool
Jan 10 22:59:42 <max_posedon> mickeyl, btw, how is going with releasing tar balls? they just useless for now, or you want fsogsmd before?
Jan 10 22:59:50 <playya> gabriel is only a few lines
Jan 10 23:00:22 <mickeyl> max_posedon: i'm planning to shuffle 5 or 6 classes from libfsoframework to libfsobasics early next week. after that i will do the next set of releases
Jan 10 23:00:34 <max_posedon> ok
Jan 10 23:01:04 <mickeyl> this time i will make sure they pass 'make distcheck'
Jan 10 23:01:33 <playya> http://gabriel.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/gabriel/gabriel/src/ should be <1000 vala LOCs
Jan 10 23:02:04 <mickeyl> yeah
Jan 10 23:02:14 <mickeyl> stuff like that benefits incredibly from Vala
Jan 10 23:02:25 <mickeyl> i regularly enjoy looking at the generated C code
Jan 10 23:02:29 <playya> hey, it's zeenix code
Jan 10 23:02:48 <playya> is it the vala/tracker zeenix?
Jan 10 23:03:08 <mickeyl> zeeshan ali
Jan 10 23:03:20 <playya> Zeeshan Ali <zeenix@gstreamer.net>
Jan 10 23:03:24 <mickeyl> yep
Jan 10 23:03:25 <GNUtoo> ok with gsm0710muxd it worked
Jan 10 23:03:41 <playya> afair it's asi asabil in vala
Jan 10 23:03:54 <GNUtoo> I will have a working phone for tomorrow(I needed a phone)
Jan 10 23:05:11 <playya> if you will you should be really fast ;)
Jan 10 23:05:14 <mickeyl> NOTE: Running task 3506 of 3506 (ID: 0, /local/pkg/oe/openembedded/recipes/images/fso2-console-image.bb, do_build)
Jan 10 23:05:16 <mickeyl> hah
Jan 10 23:05:20 <playya> but submit patches
Jan 10 23:05:24 <mickeyl> finally a build from scratch that goes through again
Jan 10 23:05:44 <playya> 1170 of 1219 for gabriel
Jan 10 23:06:01 <mickeyl> does gtype feature a way to find out all registered classes @ runtime?
Jan 10 23:06:56 <playya> afaik there's some hidden struct
Jan 10 23:08:53 <playya> GLib.Type has a children method
Jan 10 23:11:00 <playya> there should be a tool too
Jan 10 23:11:16 <mickeyl> hmm, so if we can find out all children of GObject, we're set
Jan 10 23:12:09 <mickeyl> would simplify some of my manual mappings for plugins that are only conditionally created
Jan 10 23:12:16 <mickeyl> such as the players, or the modems, etc.
Jan 10 23:12:37 <playya> yes. but all objects are created
Jan 10 23:12:45 <playya> ehh. registered
Jan 10 23:13:16 <playya> that's why i suggested the hashmap where all registered modem, players, are saved
Jan 10 23:13:34 <mickeyl> ya, but i think that should be a job of the type system
Jan 10 23:13:35 <playya> atm you have to change code if you want to add a modem
Jan 10 23:14:08 <mickeyl> i could just let the system integrators use the type names instead of "friendly" names in the .conf
Jan 10 23:14:18 <playya> you don't need to create an object, just use string,Type
Jan 10 23:29:17 <playya> good night
Jan 10 23:29:22 <mickeyl> g'night
Jan 11 00:15:42 <Gabrys> so, have there been fixes to non-registering GSM till tonight?
Jan 11 00:35:35 <max_posedon> mickey|zzZZzz, cornucopia/fsogsmd: ../../src/3rdparty/conversions.c:40: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘memcpy, just about paranoid
Jan 11 01:22:06 <max_posedon> ok, I get all fso2 git-master tools/libs compiled on gentoo
Jan 11 01:22:34 <max_posedon> if somebody intested welcome to openmoko overlay
Jan 11 01:31:59 <Gabrys> max_posedon: Gentoo on FreeRunner sounds really nice :)
Jan 11 01:32:11 <Gabrys> + distcc
Jan 11 01:32:39 <max_posedon> I can't say anything good about native compilation on FR
Jan 11 01:32:43 <Gabrys> distcc cross-compiles as well, doesn't it
Jan 11 01:32:59 <Gabrys> max_posedon: I can say I almost compiled busybox-static on freerunner
Jan 11 01:33:15 <max_posedon> I use sheevaplug for native, and laptop for cross
Jan 11 01:33:20 <max_posedon> is it hard?
Jan 11 01:33:27 <Gabrys> I ended up with linking problem -lcrypt
Jan 11 01:33:30 <max_posedon> e.g. its a simple task I think)
Jan 11 01:33:38 <max_posedon> if you use crossdev-wrappers
Jan 11 01:33:38 <Gabrys> it used to work nicely 
Jan 11 01:33:52 <max_posedon> I hope you saw http://gentoo.mindzoo.de/
Jan 11 01:34:50 <Gabrys> I haven't
Jan 11 01:35:16 <max_posedon> its sometimes bad do not start from wiki, wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gentoo have a link to it)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jan 11 02:59:57 2010