**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Aug 09 02:59:56 2011
Aug 09 05:43:19 <PaulFertser> JaMa: hey :)
Aug 09 05:51:06 <JaMa> hey
Aug 09 05:59:32 <PaulFertser> lindi-: that Qubes OS is rather cool, are you already using it. Also, did you notice the barebox project?
Aug 09 06:06:25 <mrmoku> moin
Aug 09 06:06:39 <lindi-> PaulFertser: I've started a migration but it'll take a while. I've been running my desktop in xen dom0 for a month or so now
Aug 09 06:07:00 <lindi-> PaulFertser: for some odd reason if I connect my camera I don't get a popup dialog under xen :)
Aug 09 06:07:09 <lindi-> PaulFertser: other than that I haven't spotted regressions
Aug 09 06:07:59 <lindi-> PaulFertser: and also trying to fix xpra
Aug 09 06:10:40 <lindi-> PaulFertser: ah, barebox is a boot loader. I was expecting some virtualization stuff :)
Aug 09 06:10:59 <PaulFertser> lindi-: nah, it's just that your letter to the ML reminded me about the topic.
Aug 09 06:12:08 <PaulFertser> lindi-: damn, i wished i heard about xpra before.
Aug 09 06:12:42 <lindi-> I've been hacking it for a few months now :)
Aug 09 06:13:34 <lindi-> very promising but still bit buggy
Aug 09 06:14:47 <lindi-> PaulFertser: currently it seems that keyboard handling needs protocol changes
Aug 09 06:15:12 <PaulFertser> lindi-: when you next time decide on hacking on u-boot, please consider barebox instead, i really liked the idea, and i'm using it at work now.
Aug 09 06:15:35 <lindi-> PaulFertser: I've sort of given up on getting u-boot to debian
Aug 09 06:15:46 <lindi-> PaulFertser: so unless you want to port barebox to openmoko...?
Aug 09 06:16:30 <PaulFertser> lindi-: i like Qi enough, i see no reason (for me) to use something as complex as u-boot or barebox on it.
Aug 09 06:16:39 <lindi-> PaulFertser: heh ok
Aug 09 06:17:26 <lindi-> PaulFertser: I just hate having to use multiple partitions to be able to test multiple kernels
Aug 09 06:17:54 <lindi-> would be nice if Qi would support more than one boot option per partition
Aug 09 06:17:59 <PaulFertser> lindi-: what about kexec?
Aug 09 06:18:18 <lindi-> PaulFertser: when I talk to some arm people about it they are surprised it works on arm :)
Aug 09 06:18:31 <lindi-> PaulFertser: and how do you kexec from suspend?
Aug 09 06:18:48 <lindi-> hrm, disregard that
Aug 09 06:18:55 <lindi-> of course the kernel is still in ram
Aug 09 06:19:28 <lindi-> it'd just be a lot easier to add to qi
Aug 09 06:19:36 <lindi-> it wouldn't break compatibility or anything
Aug 09 06:20:03 <lindi-> it'd just look for uImage-GTA02.bin, uImage-GTA02-2.bin, uImage-GTA02-3.bin etc. and jump to next partition if it is not found
Aug 09 06:20:38 <PaulFertser> lindi-: how do you want to choose -2 over the first option?
Aug 09 06:20:45 <lindi-> PaulFertser: just like currently
Aug 09 06:20:50 <PaulFertser> By renaming the first kernel?
Aug 09 06:21:00 <PaulFertser> I mean, i'm yet to understand the particular usecase.
Aug 09 06:21:23 <lindi-> PaulFertser: I want to make sure my phone is always bootable with a working kernel
Aug 09 06:21:34 <lindi-> PaulFertser: but I also want to do testing for newer kernels
Aug 09 06:21:42 <lindi-> PaulFertser: => I need to be able to choose the kernel to boot
Aug 09 06:21:59 <lindi-> currently I have to have one partition per kernel
Aug 09 06:23:15 <PaulFertser> lindi-: and how what you propose will help you?
Aug 09 06:23:31 <lindi-> PaulFertser: that'd allow me to put all my kernels to the same partition
Aug 09 06:26:05 <PaulFertser> lindi-: but how will you choose which to boot?
Aug 09 06:27:08 <lindi-> PaulFertser: just like currently? by pulsing AUX at the right time
Aug 09 06:27:15 <PaulFertser> lindi-: (xpra) but why do you need that when Qubes provides its own advanced (and simple and security audited) stuff to use X-apps?
Aug 09 06:27:28 <lindi-> PaulFertser: Qubes does not support remote use of apps
Aug 09 06:27:41 <lindi-> I need both
Aug 09 06:27:50 <PaulFertser> lindi-: ah, this way, i see. Should be easy to add. But folks say it's too hard to press AUX at the right time without serial console.
Aug 09 06:27:59 <lindi-> both xpra and qubes use the same compositioning trick
Aug 09 06:28:22 <lindi-> PaulFertser: I agree, I'd like to fix that too but I feared people would complain since that would change the behavior
Aug 09 06:28:40 <lindi-> PaulFertser: my idea: 1) I press power button
Aug 09 06:28:49 <lindi-> PaulFertser: 2) Qi waits for 1 second
Aug 09 06:29:02 <lindi-> 3) if I hit AUX during that time Qi stops the boot process and goes to a "menu":
Aug 09 06:29:48 <lindi-> when it is in menu entry N it blinks a LED N times and pauses for 1 second and then starts blinking again
Aug 09 06:29:58 <lindi-> every time I press AUX it goes to the next "entry"
Aug 09 06:30:07 <lindi-> and when I hit power it will execute that entry
Aug 09 06:30:23 <lindi-> no graphics required. This can be used completely without looking at the leds too
Aug 09 06:30:44 <lindi-> the point is just that you don't need to be so quick at hitting AUX :)
Aug 09 06:33:01 <PaulFertser> lindi-: tbh, i'm not sure i'd like to have that, i see no reason to not prefer kexec solution here, have you tried it?
Aug 09 06:33:20 <lindi-> PaulFertser: I have used kexec a few times
Aug 09 06:33:58 <lindi-> PaulFertser: anyways, maybe we can support both?
Aug 09 06:34:02 <PaulFertser> lindi-: i meant http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/qi-bootmenu/
Aug 09 06:34:13 <lindi-> PaulFertser: I don't see how I could package that to debian
Aug 09 06:34:57 <lindi-> simply no time :)
Aug 09 06:35:16 <lindi-> maybe I should just write the patches to Qi and include them in debian
Aug 09 06:35:28 <lindi-> and be bold, we can undo them :)
Aug 09 06:35:49 <PaulFertser> lindi-: are you packaging the openmoko qi fork or the current andy's version?
Aug 09 06:36:20 <lindi-> PaulFertser: I haven't seen changes from andy
Aug 09 06:36:30 <lindi-> they were not really relevant for openmoko at least
Aug 09 06:37:01 <PaulFertser> lindi-: here's his repo. http://git.warmcat.com/cgi-bin/cgit/qi/ he supports some freescale chips now.
Aug 09 06:37:11 <lindi-> PaulFertser: yes I think I read that
Aug 09 06:37:46 <PaulFertser> And omap
Aug 09 06:37:48 <lindi-> I don't think I have much motivation in supporting the freescale stuff since I don't have the hardware or time
Aug 09 06:40:36 <lindi-> PaulFertser: does he have any interest in keeping that working for openmoko?
Aug 09 06:40:54 <PaulFertser> lindi-: i guess no :/
Aug 09 06:41:02 <lindi-> yeah so there's no point for me to package it :)
Aug 09 06:41:22 <lindi-> so, todo list for qi packaging:
Aug 09 06:47:54 <lindi-> PaulFertser: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/qi-todo.txt
Aug 09 06:48:33 <lindi-> PaulFertser: how does that feel? ;)
Aug 09 06:50:51 <PaulFertser> lindi-: like a lot of work :)
Aug 09 06:52:52 <lindi-> PaulFertser: I can write it :)
Aug 09 06:53:16 <lindi-> PaulFertser: I'd just like to get some sort of concensus so that distros could use more or less the same boot loader
Aug 09 06:53:52 <PaulFertser> lindi-: only debian and SHR seem to care about gta02 nowadays. And the interest is fading, alas.
Aug 09 06:54:27 <lindi-> PaulFertser: qtmoko too?
Aug 09 06:54:37 <lindi-> PaulFertser: and pyneo
Aug 09 08:29:30 <lindi-> lists.openmoko.org down?
Aug 09 08:41:11 <JaMa> can someone update ffalarms ffphonelog and iliwi for new eflvala bindings?
Aug 09 08:41:34 <JaMa> I'll add patch for libphone-ui-shr to shr-core
Aug 09 08:42:15 <PaulFertser> lindi-: one of the OM servers (handling email and probably lists too) is down, right.
Aug 09 08:42:29 <lindi-> PaulFertser: did you get Rico's email about qi and u-boot serial port differences?
Aug 09 08:44:48 <PaulFertser> lindi-: it looks like the mail you cited is about PMU's gpio, and before that you talk about u-boot patches wrt SoC's gpio.
Aug 09 08:45:38 <PaulFertser> lindi-: also, Rico should provide a dump of pmu registers for the non-working case i think.
Aug 09 08:46:48 <lindi-> PaulFertser: well we need a bug report first
Aug 09 08:46:54 <lindi-> otherwise issues get forgotten
Aug 09 08:47:50 <PaulFertser> lindi-: i agree. The guy experiencing problems is supposed to bugreport with the relevant info.
Aug 09 08:49:10 <lindi-> PaulFertser: how would you do kernel development with qi btw? it does not support loading kernel to ram
Aug 09 08:49:18 <lindi-> PaulFertser: (over usb, that is)
Aug 09 08:50:31 <PaulFertser> lindi-: i was simply booting a working kernel and scp'ing a new one to SD. Not that comfortable, but i've spent more time thinking and reading code than booting anyway.
Aug 09 08:50:41 <lindi-> PaulFertser: heh
Aug 09 08:50:56 <lindi-> PaulFertser: and then you use kexec?
Aug 09 08:51:03 <lindi-> PaulFertser: or how do you recover from unbootable system?
Aug 09 08:51:09 <PaulFertser> lindi-: booted from NAND
Aug 09 08:51:45 <gena2x|work> omg, guys, still discussing bootloaders? didn't you already choose one right for you and forget?
Aug 09 08:53:34 <PaulFertser> gena2x|work: how are you doing there? Having enough bootloaders at work? ;)
Aug 09 08:54:20 <lindi-> PaulFertser: so you press AUX to get back to working state?
Aug 09 08:54:26 <gena2x|work> PaulFertser, hi Paul, unfortunately at work i have c++ only, so i miss bootloaders :)
Aug 09 08:54:45 <PaulFertser> lindi-: yes, i do
Aug 09 08:54:46 <lindi-> gena2x|work: well it'd be nice if we could just converge to a single boot loader
Aug 09 08:54:57 <lindi-> PaulFertser: ok, I want something that doesn't require me to be physically present
Aug 09 08:55:58 <PaulFertser> lindi-: i understand
Aug 09 08:57:14 <gena2x|work> reasons of development qi are obsolete, qi is unique for openmoko and unsupported, why switch to it? developing something major imho do not worth it as already two working bootloaders exist.
Aug 09 08:57:54 <gena2x|work> imho better to put effort in updating kernel
Aug 09 08:58:23 <gena2x|work> because of sd boot lars pointed in some last old mail
Aug 09 08:58:36 <gena2x|work> s/boot/boost/
Aug 09 08:58:37 <apt> gena2x|work meant: because of sd boost lars pointed in some last old mail
Aug 09 08:58:54 <CIA-82> SHR: 03Martin.Jansa 07meta-smartphone * r11883c7175fa 10/meta-shr/recipes-shr/shr/ (3 files in 2 dirs): libphone-ui-shr: adapt to new API changes from efl
Aug 09 09:01:15 <gena2x|work> and btw what's wrong with serials in u-boot?
Aug 09 09:01:46 <PaulFertser> gena2x|work: qi is actually used on all other devices that Andy supports.
Aug 09 09:06:27 <gena2x|work> PaulFertser, does Qi have some homepage?
Aug 09 09:06:48 <gena2x|work> PaulFertser, or central repository?
Aug 09 09:10:37 <PaulFertser> gena2x|work: yes, http://git.warmcat.com/cgi-bin/cgit/qi/
Aug 09 09:11:11 <PaulFertser> gena2x|work: so, are you doing enterprise stuff now? Is C++ you use really advanced (boost::spirit, meta-programming etc? )?
Aug 09 09:15:50 <gena2x|work> PaulFertser, As you probably know i am hard follower of KISS principle :). But company i am working has all on it's own. Own STL for example.
Aug 09 09:16:26 <gena2x|work> PaulFertser, So, not only boost, but stl is forbidden :)
Aug 09 09:16:30 <PaulFertser> gena2x|work: damn that sounds like something damn wrong
Aug 09 09:18:11 <gena2x|work> PaulFertser, yes, they loosing collaboration benefits, but basically their lib pretty close to stl, just with some 'enchantments'.
Aug 09 09:18:57 <PaulFertser> gena2x|work: enterprise stuff?
Aug 09 09:18:57 <gena2x|work> PaulFertser, and for sure i can't judge them, especially publically.
Aug 09 09:19:22 <lindi-> gena2x|work: the u-boot version that works on openmoko is also ancient
Aug 09 09:20:25 <lindi-> gena2x|work: if it was mainlined I'd agree with you easily
Aug 09 09:20:42 <CIA-82> SHR: 03Martin.Jansa 07meta-smartphone * r71612da602f8 10/meta-shr/recipes-shr/3rdparty/ (4 files in 2 dirs): ffalarms, ffphonelog, iliwi: adapt to libeflvala API changes from r62020
Aug 09 09:22:46 <gena2x|work> PaulFertser, yeah, enterprise, just some features for huge system.
Aug 09 09:23:02 <PaulFertser> gena2x|work: do you use UML as well? ;)
Aug 09 09:23:33 <gena2x|work> PaulFertser, not really much.
Aug 09 09:27:47 <PaulFertser> gena2x|work: lucky you. (i thought all enterprise folks must use uml or else stupid managers won't understand them ;) 
Aug 09 09:30:14 <gena2x|work> lindi-, afaik mainline didn't really want to integrate at the time of laforge.
Aug 09 09:30:46 <lindi-> gena2x|work: at least debian-arm people would really like to support openmoko in u-boot that is shipped by debian
Aug 09 09:30:58 <gena2x|work> PaulFertser, no, i like development/documentation balance here. it biased very heavy onto development :)
Aug 09 09:32:02 <gena2x|work> lindi-, may be it's possible to package openmoko-specific u-boot?
Aug 09 09:41:58 <lindi-> gena2x|work: I could always ask
Aug 09 09:42:22 <lindi-> gena2x|work: but usually packaging duplicated code trees is discouraged
Aug 09 09:45:27 <gena2x|work> lindi-, btw how you plan to use bootloader provided with debian? for installer?
Aug 09 09:45:41 <lindi-> gena2x|work: for example
Aug 09 09:45:52 <lindi-> gena2x|work: but my main goal is to have something to report bugs against
Aug 09 09:46:00 <lindi-> gena2x|work: I really hate pointing users to get binaries from a wiki
Aug 09 09:50:14 <gena2x|work> lindi-, sounds like you want to use debian infrastructure for openmoko-specific u-boot bug tracking? this sounds wrong :)
Aug 09 09:50:54 <gena2x|work> lindi-, if you miss bug tracker for openmoko-specific u-boot, may be we can just bring up one?
Aug 09 09:51:12 <lindi-> gena2x|work: there's inherent value in having the boot loader as part of the distro
Aug 09 09:52:06 <lindi-> gena2x|work: for example that means "apt-get source qi" works
Aug 09 10:32:19 <lindi-> gena2x|work: and btw, is your u-boot git source still unavailable? ;)
Aug 09 10:32:31 <lindi-> gena2x|work: I'd really like to be able to pull it
Aug 09 11:47:15 <lindi-> gena2x|work: Now that I think of it, I don't indeed think that I want to bother debian ARM people about u-boot when the most important part is linux
Aug 09 12:02:11 <gena2x|work> lindi-, right. i think right idea on low level is to put effort into kernel: in packaging into mainline debian, upstreaming, porting rest on patches to latest vanilla, not into bootloader, as FR already has many bootloaders on any taste
Aug 09 12:04:16 <gena2x|work> btw, i bought used n900, just to experiment, yeah, it's nice to have kbd, it's more reliable, battery lasts longer, and may be armhf will run on it... but i tried easy-debian, and it look somehow much slower than debian on FR.
Aug 09 12:06:02 <gena2x|work> also n900 has jffs2 as fs, which is slow
Aug 09 12:06:13 <JaMa> ubifs?
Aug 09 12:06:30 <gena2x|work> i mean stock maemo
Aug 09 12:07:31 <gena2x|work> what's the state of shr on n900? is it suitable for every day usage?
Aug 09 12:10:21 <JaMa> I wasn't here for >month but afaik phonecalls are not reliable or possible
Aug 09 12:11:06 <gena2x|work> nok, but ty.
Aug 09 12:33:59 <mrmoku> gena2x|work: not really yet (phone) ... the missing part is audio mixer handling and tweaking of the on-call audio for good quality
Aug 09 14:27:55 <rah> how do I boot a custom kernel image on an android machine without fastboot?
Aug 09 14:46:07 <paulk> you flash it?
Aug 09 14:46:21 <paulk> and you do a regular boot
Aug 09 14:46:40 <rah> "flash it" isn't very helpful :-)
Aug 09 14:47:00 <rah> what do you mean?
Aug 09 14:48:07 <PaulFertser> rah: android machine is a vague term you know
Aug 09 14:48:21 <PaulFertser> rah: if the stock kernel supports kexec, you can kexec your kernel.
Aug 09 14:48:31 <PaulFertser> rah: if not, you have to do some bootloader trick.
Aug 09 14:48:42 <PaulFertser> rah: and bootloaders are different on different devices.
Aug 09 14:49:11 <rah> PaulFertser: how does one "kexec" one's kernel?
Aug 09 14:49:32 <PaulFertser> rah: copy it to the device somehow and run "kexec" executable.
Aug 09 14:50:17 <rah> alas, no kexec command
Aug 09 14:51:04 <rah> PaulFertser: what bootloader tricks are there?
Aug 09 14:52:28 <PaulFertser> rah: i know a lot about gta02 and gta01, less so about n900, almost nothing about other consumer devices.
Aug 09 14:54:07 <rah> paulk: what did you mean when you said "flash it", exactly?
Aug 09 14:54:37 <PaulFertser> rah: he meant "place it whereever bootloader exects to find a kernel by default"
Aug 09 14:55:07 <rah> heh
Aug 09 14:55:11 <paulk> rah: mhh, you write it to the NAND and let the bootloader boot it
Aug 09 14:56:27 <rah> the correct answer, according to Teh Web is: execute the command "flash_image boot <image>"
Aug 09 14:56:30 <rah> http://wiki.cyanogenmod.com/index.php?title=Howto:_Install_Kernels
Aug 09 15:29:02 <CIA-82> SHR: 03Martin.Jansa 07shr-chroot * rc5b067c6ff7f 10/ (52 files in 16 dirs): system upgrade
Aug 09 15:30:48 <CIA-82> SHR: 03Martin.Jansa 07meta-smartphone * r8add6a0a208a 10/meta-shr/recipes-shr/tasks/task-shr-minimal.bb: task-shr-minimal: drop libcanberra-alsa from RDEPENDS it somehow pulls eglibc-nativesdk
Aug 09 16:22:09 <mickeyl> ~seen morphis
Aug 09 16:22:26 <apt> morphis <~morphis@dslb-088-070-154-157.pools.arcor-ip.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko-cdevel, 22h 9m 8s ago, saying: 'mickeyl: btw. I changed release date of aurora to 20.08.2011'.
Aug 09 16:51:27 <gnutoo> hi captainigloo 
Aug 09 18:08:44 <morphis> heyho
Aug 09 18:10:23 <angelox|laptop> hello morphis! 
Aug 09 18:11:17 * angelox|laptop will bbl
Aug 09 18:17:43 <mrmoku> JaMa: does core building work for you?
Aug 09 18:18:03 <mrmoku> I mean... is it worth for me to update and trigger a build?
Aug 09 18:33:07 <rah> what is the difference between the .bin kernels and the .fastboot kernels in the SHR htcdream images directory?
Aug 09 18:33:16 <rah> http://build.shr-project.org/shr-unstable/images/htcdream/
Aug 09 18:39:17 <JaMa> mrmoku: yes.. today I started rebuild from scratch on buildhost..
Aug 09 18:41:43 <mrmoku> JaMa: great
Aug 09 19:00:02 <mrmoku> morphis: would you dislike me adding an additional control to FsoAudio.MixerControl which is needed for ACI only?
Aug 09 19:00:12 <mrmoku> s/control/property/
Aug 09 19:02:20 <mrmoku> hmm... maybe I just copy it... it's small enough anyway
Aug 09 19:16:17 <morphis> mrmoku: no, do it
Aug 09 19:16:59 <mrmoku> ok
Aug 09 19:17:24 <mrmoku> in the end it's just an additional int for the controls priority...
Aug 09 19:17:50 <morphis> ok
Aug 09 20:05:28 <CIA-82> freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07cornucopia * rec6664a3fb4a 10/libfsotransport/fsotransport/ (basetransport.vala hsuart.vala transport.vala): libfsotransport: implement suspend/resume method for transport class
Aug 09 21:01:07 <fpu> hello
Aug 09 21:01:46 <fpu> what are dbus commands to enter PIN info fsogsmd?
Aug 09 21:01:57 <fpu> I have found API and know the dbus command
Aug 09 21:02:02 <fpu> but don't know how to send it
Aug 09 21:15:14 <elisa42> fpu: you could use mdbus2 to send dbus commands
Aug 09 21:39:29 <fpu> mdbus2, will look into it
Aug 09 21:49:40 <rah> I've installed the htcdream SHR images on to my motorola dext, which seems to have very similar hardware as the htc dream
Aug 09 21:50:21 <rah> in the htc dream installation pages, it says to wait "a very long time for SHR post-install configuration screen to come up"
Aug 09 21:50:35 <rah> how long is "a very long time"? :-)
Aug 09 21:51:13 <rah> the phone is sat there doing nothing, showing the Motorola symbol on the display like it does before booting android
Aug 09 21:51:19 <rah> how long should I wait before giving up?
Aug 09 21:52:19 <rah> is there any way to determine whether the kernel is running, other than the display springing to life?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Aug 10 02:59:57 2011