**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Mar 25 02:59:58 2012 Mar 25 03:13:49 SHR: 03shr-devel 07buildhistory * r889592746eb2 10/ (56 files in 46 dirs): Build 201203250314 of shr 20120325 for machine palmpre2 on opmbuild Mar 25 05:58:18 rah: I mailed Sean about that, they had some hardware trouble and are doing replacement for that. he said it would be a month or so to bring back git/svn.om.o Mar 25 06:00:00 personally I hope lists.om.o, wiki.om.o are backed up by non-OM folks Mar 25 06:09:50 SHR: 03shr-devel 07buildhistory * rd679ab11ddf2 10/ (59 files in 45 dirs): Build 201203250520 of shr 20120325 for machine crespo on opmbuild Mar 25 10:52:11 pabs3: I thought I emailed Sean about that :-) Mar 25 10:52:24 pabs3: does laforge@openmoko.org not work? Mar 25 10:52:56 rah: I don't think Harald works there any more, so presumably not? Mar 25 10:53:23 pabs3: is laforge not Sean? Mar 25 10:53:32 no :) Mar 25 10:53:35 odd Mar 25 10:53:46 Sean Moss-Pultz Mar 25 10:54:03 Sean is named as the technical contact in the WHOIS database, with an email address of laforge@openmoko.org Mar 25 10:54:42 yeah, laforge is Harald Welte, not Sean Mar 25 10:54:47 right Mar 25 11:33:18 and admin is Roh Mar 25 11:33:30 and/or gismo Mar 25 11:34:07 what'S status of om infra? I haven't checked and nobody pinged me Mar 25 11:35:09 hmm, at least wiki seems fine Mar 25 11:35:29 mail as well, though nobody except me is probably using it anymore ;-P Mar 25 11:37:01 anyway, mailto:xxx@openmoko.org shall work, it's @openmoko.com that been the corporate mail and been down since ages Mar 25 11:38:54 best way to tackle problems with OM infra is to a) ping me, b) ping roh, c) leave a note at admin-trac Mar 25 11:39:06 c) seems to be no option ;-) Mar 25 11:40:36 I seem to remember infra "moved" from sean/OM_inc to Harald/LaF0rge some 9 months ago Mar 25 11:40:51 mickeyl should know details Mar 25 11:41:50 anyway if you want me to take care, please ping me with exact description of WHAT is down or defect, and since WHEN Mar 25 11:46:26 pabs3: what's "non-OM folks"? Mar 25 11:47:45 DocScrutinizer: git.openmoko.org, svn.openmoko.org and docs.openmoko.org are down Mar 25 11:48:02 DocScrutinizer: people outside of OM Inc Mar 25 11:48:15 so everybody except Sean ;-D Mar 25 11:48:49 yes, wiki is backed up by our admins roh and gismo Mar 25 11:48:57 DocScrutinizer: here is rah's mail: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-March/066676.html Mar 25 11:48:59 as well as all the other stuff Mar 25 11:49:33 good to hear Mar 25 11:50:35 well, I'd think OM domains never were related to FIC Mar 25 11:51:33 as mentioned above they were registered by Sean/OM_inc but moved to Harald Welte aka gnumonks some time ago. mickeyl should know details Mar 25 11:51:43 admins are roh and gismo Mar 25 11:51:59 roh can be found at freenode frequently Mar 25 11:52:16 though recently not so much in this very channel anymore Mar 25 11:53:03 I have no idea about git and svn, thought they were shut down years ago, since nothing useful happened on them Mar 25 11:53:23 download should live Mar 25 11:53:50 otherwise I'd wonder where from you could get "official" schematics etc Mar 25 11:54:10 git at least has kernel, qemu etc stuff. IIRC svn had useful stuff in it too Mar 25 11:54:18 http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/ is fine Mar 25 11:55:07 who maintained kernel on git.om during last 2 years? Mar 25 11:55:46 sorry to confess I have no idea about sttaus of git etc Mar 25 11:56:10 hardware issues according to Sean Mar 25 11:56:21 dated from? Mar 25 11:57:07 my first mail to him was 22 Jan, IIRC it was down before then for a while too Mar 25 11:57:58 last sunday he said: Mar 25 11:57:58 The guys are in the process of buying hardware and reconfiguring the server. It will be at least a few weeks, I would imagine. Mar 25 11:58:00 yeah, I guess it was Mar 25 11:58:56 buying hardware?? strange, I thought we host on Hetzner rootservers that are leased Mar 25 12:00:15 I might try to log in to sita and possibly shakti as well, and see what's going on. But I doubt I could do much Mar 25 12:00:49 I'm not sure I have root on mail.om, quite probably not Mar 25 12:01:30 anyway I pinged roh and asked him to drop by here and help shed some light on the issue Mar 25 12:02:18 please ping me again in a few days when probelms persist and neither roh nor mickeyl answered Mar 25 12:02:45 mickeyl: ping Mar 25 12:02:58 ~seen mickeyl Mar 25 12:03:03 mickeyl is currently on #oe #openmoko #openmoko-cdevel, last said: 'gnight'. Mar 25 12:03:15 DocScrutinizer: PaulFertser and lindi- have made commits until relatively recently Mar 25 12:03:24 mhm Mar 25 12:03:38 so why didn't they ping me the minute it failed? Mar 25 12:04:08 PaulFertser: ping Mar 25 12:04:14 lindi-: ping Mar 25 12:04:21 I guess people didn't know you were involved, I certainly didn't Mar 25 12:04:23 ^^^ what's up with this? Mar 25 12:04:24 they're not doing active development right now, I believe due to time constraints Mar 25 12:05:02 pabs3: lindi- and paul for sure know Mar 25 12:05:08 ;-D Mar 25 12:05:11 the absence of git.om.org is a problem for me though, in that I want to use the trees on it to get my GTA01 working Mar 25 12:05:23 fair point Mar 25 12:05:47 mickeyl is your man Mar 25 12:06:19 he knows more about om infra and who's doing what, than I do Mar 25 12:06:54 [2012-03-25 14:06:43] [Whois] mickeyl ist seit 52 Tagen, 14 Stunden, 3 Minuten und 43 Sekunden untätig. Mar 25 12:06:57 WTF?! Mar 25 12:07:46 I'm starting to feel concerned Mar 25 12:08:21 indeed Mar 25 12:22:56 c) of above: https://admin-trac.openmoko.org/trac/wiki/services -- down Mar 25 12:24:15 munin: https://monitor.openmoko.org/munin/bhavani/comparison-week.html -- down Mar 25 12:26:33 https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ ok Mar 25 12:27:13 quite obviously one machine is down Mar 25 12:44:57 SHR: 03shr-devel 07buildhistory * rfe72da92c992 10/ (2825 files in 2815 dirs): Build 201203250821 of shr 20120325 for machine om-gta02 on opmbuild Mar 25 13:04:33 at least Mar 25 13:17:30 roh hit the reset button of the machine that has issues Mar 25 13:17:54 might be back right now Mar 25 13:18:38 hmm, not yet Mar 25 13:19:14 anyway, we're aware, we're working on it. A new hw with less flaws is about to replace this rusty iron Mar 25 13:19:33 and no, OM infra is not and never was FIC Mar 25 13:19:56 actually it's all already "community" Mar 25 14:00:22 morphis, hi Mar 25 14:00:53 morphis, do you have an idea for AT+VTS=N on gta04 Mar 25 14:01:00 I need that to work on sound Mar 25 14:01:11 I think I'll use qtmoko forwarder at the end Mar 25 14:01:17 it says no echo at all Mar 25 14:01:44 so maybe oslec is not needed Mar 25 14:01:44 morphis: last staging is closed now, do you have some fso changes to push now? Mar 25 14:16:15 well, guys. If you're not pinging anybody of the "crew" (me, mickey, roh...) about any problems with OM infra, odds are nobody will take care at all Mar 25 14:17:03 rah: roh doesn't monitor the boxes nor the ML anymore on a regular basis. He's doing voluntary admin for this stuff, while Harald Welte pays for it Mar 25 14:18:30 rah: nevertheless the vhost will move on new iron eventually, together with other vhosts that are actually used on a regular basis by roh and others, so any hw defect like today will get noticed more in a timely manner Mar 25 14:19:03 his box has obviously some fried components, maybe NIC, or PSU Mar 25 14:19:18 this* box Mar 25 14:21:32 rah: regarding the whole FIC story you might want to read up some old tales and other stuff in the internets. Basically OM never been FIC, and FIC never been directly involved into OM Mar 25 14:22:43 OM and FIC shared some HR, some facilities, and some resources for sourcing and assembly/manufacturing which actually been done at a FIC plant for customer OM Mar 25 14:23:49 for quite a long time OM had their office in FIC building, and that's what you see on Sean's address in whois, though even this isn't correct anymore Mar 25 14:25:25 anyway for now openmoko.org domain is neither FIC nor openmoko_inc, on any level (except Sean still in admin-c, some odd detail) Mar 25 14:37:07 DocScrutinizer: you haven't replied to my email Mar 25 14:37:27 it's getting tedous Mar 25 14:37:46 I'm not usually following this ML at all Mar 25 14:37:55 DocScrutinizer, hi, is there differences in the NOR bootloader of the gta02 that justify a patch for handling a parameter on hardware/software ECC for NAND? Mar 25 14:38:19 ummm Mar 25 14:38:22 lemme think Mar 25 14:38:31 if I even understand your question Mar 25 14:38:42 DocScrutinizer: it sounds to me like the community does not have control of om.org Mar 25 14:39:08 rah: depends on your definition of "community" Mar 25 14:39:16 DocScrutinizer: it sounds to me like the people who used to be involved in Openmoko Inc. have moved on from the community but still have control over community resources Mar 25 14:39:21 I feel like I have quite a bit of control Mar 25 14:39:41 there is that commit message: Mar 25 14:39:43 gta02: Disable hardware ECC unless we get instructed to enable it Mar 25 14:39:48 you're free to relieve me from that burden ;-D Mar 25 14:40:09 Early verions off uboot used for the gta02 flashed the nand with ecc information incompatible to s3c2440 hardware ecc. Disable hardware error correction by default, unless the bootloader explicitly enables it. Mar 25 14:40:23 DocScrutinizer: you just said you don't follow the community mailing list, yet you consider yourself part of the community? Mar 25 14:40:31 should I care about this patch or can I disable hardware ecc for all gta02? Mar 25 14:41:01 rah: you want a poll if I'm really "community" or not? Mar 25 14:41:15 DocScrutinizer: it might be useful if you shared with the community how we can go about ensuring that hosts which are down are dealt with Mar 25 14:41:29 rah: see, you didn't even know about me and my role, still you think *you* are "community"? Mar 25 14:41:32 DocScrutinizer: for example, by providing contact details for the hosts' administrators Mar 25 14:41:57 JaMa|Off, same issue for alsa Mar 25 14:42:00 with 3.3 Mar 25 14:42:10 rah: 80% of users here in know how to deal with servers down Mar 25 14:42:11 same issue than in linux-next Mar 25 14:42:22 DocScrutinizer: then why haven't they? Mar 25 14:42:28 dunno Mar 25 14:42:30 in-in-in-in-co-co-co-mi-mi-mi-mi-ng-ng-ng-g..... Mar 25 14:42:41 when playing /usr/share/sounds/female_ringtone.wav Mar 25 14:42:59 GNUtoo: sorry, catching up Mar 25 14:43:18 np Mar 25 14:44:17 DocScrutinizer: I think the community has changed from what you knew Mar 25 14:44:27 GNUtoo: I think Zecke had a look into ECC in early 2010 or somesuch. I'm not aware of current status Mar 25 14:44:34 ok Mar 25 14:44:41 rah: so what? Mar 25 14:45:03 DocScrutinizer: I think people who used to be active in the community have moved on and stopped being active, and new people have come along and started participating in the community Mar 25 14:45:24 DocScrutinizer: the new people, like myself, do not know how to deal with servers being down Mar 25 14:45:46 again, so what? I haven't moved on, as well as a lot of users here haven't Mar 25 14:45:48 DocScrutinizer: we need you to tell us Mar 25 14:46:07 OK, I did my best to tell you Mar 25 14:46:15 DocScrutinizer: preferably in a way that is widely visible, and easily retrieved; ie, in an email to the community mailing list Mar 25 14:46:39 alas the page to report issues with OM infra is down itself, so the situation is a bit unfortunate right now Mar 25 14:47:15 rah: fair point Mar 25 14:47:23 DocScrutinizer: could you write an email to the community mailing list containing contact details for the current om.org host admins? Mar 25 14:47:31 please? Mar 25 14:47:40 I will ask Roh to do that Mar 25 14:48:02 no better info that direct info, no? ;-) Mar 25 14:49:22 I am concerned that Roh will not do that Mar 25 14:49:55 SHR: 03shr-devel 07buildhistory * r54509c077d73 10/packages/ (32 files in 32 dirs): Build 201203251610 of shr 20120325 for machine om-gta02 on opmbuild Mar 25 14:52:07 rah: however keep in mind that such a mail to community ML will not be visible as soon as ML vhost goes down Mar 25 14:52:50 so the situation will be marginally different to what we have now where that info is on https://admin-trac.openmoko.org/trac/wiki/services Mar 25 14:54:19 you're however free to send a mail / blog / tweet / whatever, mentioning you managed to meet some of the oldtimers with a clue here on #openmoko-cdevel in freenode IRC Mar 25 14:54:57 yell here and somebody will hear you Mar 25 14:55:06 that'S a promise Mar 25 14:55:18 if nobody answers, pinf me directly Mar 25 14:55:23 ping even Mar 25 14:55:54 me, or mickeyl, or PaulFertser, or mrmoku`, or.... or... Mar 25 14:56:24 basically everybody in here knows who's doing what Mar 25 14:56:37 so *this* is the community Mar 25 14:58:55 of course you also can send a mail to me, joerg at openmoko dot org Mar 25 15:00:13 /whois roh Mar 25 15:00:53 I admit we have no 24/7 helpdesk anymore, but then we're all volunteers Mar 25 15:30:02 SHR: 03shr-devel 07buildhistory * rf9e8a25cadcb 10/packages/armv7a-vfp-neon-oe-linux-gnueabi/ (50 files in 50 dirs): Build 201203251714 of shr 20120325 for machine om-gta04 on opmbuild Mar 25 17:33:31 morphis, ping Mar 25 18:16:16 Roh has not done that Mar 25 18:16:21 DocScrutinizer: I've replied to your email Mar 25 18:17:43 yeah, nice. Mar 25 18:17:59 I'll not bother anymore. Go pester somebody else Mar 25 18:20:39 listen buddy, I'm just volunteering to care about all that stuff (just like all the other guys that do). We're not amused when somebody approaches us with a demanding attitude that implies we behave inappropriate for the duties we are in service for. There are no such obligations on any of us. You obviously haven't wrapped your head around the fact yet that openmoko.org already *is* owned by "community" and none of us owns you Mar 25 18:20:41 anything Mar 25 18:28:56 if you feel "we are in trouble" then offer to do it better, suggest improvements Mar 25 18:30:11 now that you know what's it all about, why don't *you* hang out in this chan 24/7, reading *all* posts and answering questions like yours when the next one drops by complaining about whatever? Mar 25 18:30:38 problem solved Mar 25 18:32:33 I bet you're also welcome you pay a couple of servers at any arbitrary hoster, and probably Roh will help eventually when he finds time between his daywork to create an account for you on *.openmoko.org so you can mirror whatever you want Mar 25 18:33:18 I'd even bet a lot of openmoko.* domains are still free, so you can pick any of those for that serverfarm Mar 25 18:34:07 then starr your flavour of community, that's not formed of suspicious lazy asshats like me that formerly were involved in openmoko.com Mar 25 18:40:31 anf for the "could you please provide email addr of Roh" part. No I won't, as probably Roh will beat me up disclosing his addr so he gets pestered in such a way Mar 25 18:42:01 woah Mar 25 18:42:18 Well, in fact one can easily find his address anyway... Mar 25 18:42:38 Hey DocScrutinizer Mar 25 18:44:09 PaulFertser: how can one find his address? Mar 25 18:45:10 rah: ahem Mar 25 18:45:22 PaulFertser: what do you mean? Mar 25 18:47:25 rah: i'm not sorry but i'm not sure i should explain how to collect specific information about people that probably wouldn't like this kind of attention. Mar 25 18:48:09 what Mar 25 18:48:09 the Mar 25 18:48:10 fuck Mar 25 18:48:17 "this kind of attention"? Mar 25 18:48:40 are you all nuts? Mar 25 18:48:50 I just want to know who to contact when a host goes down Mar 25 18:48:52 rah: sure thing, at least i certainly am :) Mar 25 18:49:20 rah: I think Joerg explained it now pretty well in the last mail to the community mailing list. Mar 25 18:49:22 PaulFertser: you're not a rational person? Mar 25 18:49:40 rah: just drop by here, ask if others can confirm the problem, then ping roh. Mar 25 18:49:50 what if roh is not here? Mar 25 18:50:19 rah: a person doesn't need to be on the channel for you to be able to send him private messages. Mar 25 18:50:28 what if roh is not here on this network? Mar 25 18:51:04 scratch that Mar 25 18:51:29 rah: he's almost always is. Mar 25 18:51:31 why do you not want to give out contact details for the named administrators of openmoko.org hosts? Mar 25 18:51:48 I can't imagine roh would actually beat up DocScrutinizer Mar 25 18:52:36 rah: i think DocScrutinizer has some rationale behind not telling you his contact details, i'm not sure why he does that... Mar 25 18:52:59 if you truly are members of the openmoko community, I would imagine you would want the community to have the best tools at its disposal for the development of free phones Mar 25 18:53:08 rah: of course Mar 25 18:53:19 which means hosts the community uses should be appropriately maintained Mar 25 18:53:33 rah: roh told me that the new hardware is coming really soon and that he'll take care of migrating. Mar 25 18:54:11 And before the new hardware comes not much can be done except for the rebooting the machine whenever it's stuck. Mar 25 18:54:18 which means that there should be some method of contacting those with responsibility for the hosts, so that they can deal with any problems that arise Mar 25 18:54:36 Yes, IRC worked fine so far. Mar 25 18:54:42 no, it hasn't Mar 25 18:55:08 rah: was he really off freenode? Hm, i've never seen him doing that. Mar 25 18:55:33 SHR: 03shr-devel 07buildhistory * rbb55b6a1ba72 10/packages/ (443 files in 443 dirs): Build 201203251730 of shr 20120325 for machine om-gta04 on opmbuild Mar 25 18:55:34 IRC is not a reliable method of contacting system administrators Mar 25 18:55:48 email is because it does not require the presence or vigilance of any person Mar 25 18:56:51 I bet he runs an irc client on some stable server so he's always online... Mar 25 18:57:10 DocScrutinizer: do you have some rationale behind not telling others roh's contact details? Mar 25 18:58:27 why is there such unwillingness to share this information? Mar 25 18:58:39 rah: you're not in a position to advise the actually existing community about how we do our business Mar 25 18:58:53 PaulFertser: why are you clinging on to the idea of notifying administrators through IRC? Mar 25 18:58:58 rah: why do you have such persistance to get this information from Doc instead of obtaining it from the usual public sources? Mar 25 18:59:16 because on your side there's such desire to pester Roh directly, while that's not what he wants Mar 25 18:59:41 PaulFertser: the only usual public sources that I know of to determine who administers a machine is the WHOIS database which, in this instance, provides no useful information Mar 25 19:00:19 DocScrutinizer: you didn't answer my question; is there some rationale behind not telling others roh's contact details? Mar 25 19:00:28 I gave proper instructions how to contact me, and I'll take care about it. If that's not what you want to do or get done, you're on your own. And I wasted way too much time on all this already Mar 25 19:00:41 PaulFertser: what public sources are you referring to? Mar 25 19:00:44 YES SIR! I ANSWERED IT Mar 25 19:00:55 PaulFertser: please stop it Mar 25 19:01:07 DocScrutinizer: ok Mar 25 19:01:45 rah: sorry but i have to stop. Apparently roh wants to deal with requests for maintanence only through proxies. Doc and I volunteer to act as such. Mar 25 19:01:56 that's fucking ridiculous Mar 25 19:02:08 :shrug: Mar 25 19:04:38 I think Roh is well capable of deciding on his own what he wants to publish for contact addr, and I made him aware of your request. Now it's up to him, and NO SIR I WON'T GIVE YOU addr so you can escalate this meaningless nagging Mar 25 19:05:10 you are NOT "the community" - WE are Mar 25 19:06:18 that's just sad Mar 25 19:06:25 * DocScrutinizer suggests a really rewarding reading to rah: Mar 25 19:06:30 ~questions Mar 25 19:06:31 remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people. Mar 25 19:07:17 you have a little identity with a little community and you feel threatened by someone wanting the email address for a host administrator Mar 25 19:07:38 it would be funny if so much valuable information weren't at stake Mar 25 19:15:54 if anybody considers this trolling, don't hesitate to act accordingly. I'm out, it's too much stupidity for me right now Mar 25 19:18:21 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07cornucopia * rbd38aaf4e86a 10/src/Makefile.am: Generate namespaces for all classes with org::freesmartphone as prefix Mar 25 19:27:54 dang all that valuable info at stake, because this guy doesn't get the business card of a random person he knows nothing about but thinks he needs to pester directly, instead of accepting the suggested procedure that has been put onto the mailing list in clear simple words just for this guy's special request Mar 25 19:28:24 the suggested procedure has been shown not to work Mar 25 19:28:35 bullshit Mar 25 19:28:43 have you pinged me? NO Mar 25 19:28:49 now shut up or leave Mar 25 19:29:26 I misunderstood Mar 25 19:29:39 I didn't realise that addressing you personally was the suggested procedure Mar 25 20:13:46 DocScrutinizer: pong? Mar 25 20:15:21 lindi-: umm, I guess it's already timed out :-D Mar 25 20:15:34 actually I forgot what it was about Mar 25 20:15:46 sorry Mar 25 20:15:53 DocScrutinizer: but yeah I've noticed that git.openmoko.org is unreliable but don't know much what to do about it. my kernel work is in git.debian.org and gitorious Mar 25 20:16:13 aah, yup. okay Mar 25 20:16:15 thanks Mar 25 20:16:15 I was never given any push access to git.openmoko.org anyway Mar 25 20:16:46 but I'd hate to lose the wiki or mailing list archives Mar 25 20:17:00 the unreliability is due to some worn out hw in the box. It gets replaced in a short while Mar 25 20:17:13 lindi-: won't happen :-D Mar 25 20:17:14 I've made some copies of the wiki but it's difficult since mediawiki export scripts are not very polished Mar 25 20:18:02 though I agree (and always did) we should get a mirror somewhere outside the usual infra Mar 25 20:18:14 the problem is like you already noticed Mar 25 20:18:22 * rah boggles Mar 25 20:19:52 lindi-: I also got a not so recent wget copy of the wiki, and my mail archive is probably over-complete :-D Mar 25 20:20:16 or dump the db after removing the user info Mar 25 20:21:30 misc: sure, we could probably do all this, but it's quite a bit of work. And I have no direct access to the wiki machine, or if I have then I don't know the machine config enough to mess with it. I prefer roh to do this Mar 25 20:22:15 DocScrutinizer: I suspect mediawiki fundation to have a script to do that ( they do for wikipedia ) Mar 25 20:22:57 :nod: maybe if you can find such script, the whole thing can be done in a few hours Mar 25 20:23:35 for now, the servers have regular backup schemes running, and nobody is planning to tear them down Mar 25 20:24:42 it's just the maintenance is quite some overhead in relation to the actual size of project, so roh is managing all this in his spare time and that sometimes delays things a day or two Mar 25 20:25:23 but there's definitely nothing "on the stake" Mar 25 20:26:08 and for now harald and roh feel like keeping the arrangement like it is Mar 25 20:26:25 the only thing I found is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data_dumps#Producing_your_own_dumps Mar 25 20:26:34 modulo some new iron for the flaky machine Mar 25 20:26:47 DocScrutinizer: is harald still involved? Mar 25 20:26:48 but I think I will first try to deploy this on $OTHER_PROJECT wiki to see how it goes Mar 25 20:26:50 I think that's known Mar 25 20:27:15 lindi-: harald is paying the infra Mar 25 20:27:25 ok Mar 25 20:27:30 and basically owning the domains Mar 25 20:27:42 ok, didn't know any of this Mar 25 20:28:07 well, now you know ;-) Mar 25 20:28:35 the DNS entries for openmoko.org suggest it though Mar 25 20:29:16 >> Name Server:ORGO.PROGSOC.UTS.EDU.AU Name Server:GANESHA.GNUMONKS.ORG Name Server:CORUSCANT.GNUMONKS.ORG Name Server:SUNBEAM.HMW-CONSULTING.DE Name Server:DNS.NETFILTER.ORG Mar 25 20:29:20 have you thought about declassifying some of the #openmoko-devel logs btw? I'm curious what kind of plans there were in the beginning Mar 25 20:30:30 umm, nope. I don't think we can safely disclose these, as we can't get approval by everybody who posted a silly joke in this chan Mar 25 20:30:45 DocScrutinizer: yeah of course you can't publish them completely but at least some interesting quotes would be nice Mar 25 20:30:51 besides there are no logs Mar 25 20:31:04 like when was the first time somebody sent an sms successfully Mar 25 20:31:16 all this is public Mar 25 20:31:24 oh? Mar 25 20:31:45 there's much mytery about #openmoko-devel, actually it's been not that interesting Mar 25 20:31:56 DocScrutinizer: well how could I know :P Mar 25 20:32:06 sure, that'S why I tell you Mar 25 20:32:38 e.g the traffic always been 10..~1% of cdevel Mar 25 20:32:50 in the beginning Mar 25 20:33:00 since years the channel is dead Mar 25 20:33:22 yeah just started thinking this since debian is planning to publish some debian-private mails from early history Mar 25 20:33:59 it's not up to me to decide about that. At that time I've been employee/contractor of OM_inc Mar 25 20:34:36 means I also have to obey my NDA Mar 25 20:35:14 DocScrutinizer: well I couldn't know what that says :) Mar 25 20:35:32 actually the internal MLs might be way more interesting than #om-devel Mar 25 20:35:41 yeah Mar 25 20:36:28 but if anybody could disclose those, then it's Sean Mar 25 20:37:27 even for the internal ML, my ears still ring from wolfgang shouting PUBLIC! MAKE IT PUBLIC!! Mar 25 20:38:15 means we later on did exatly same discussions on the public MLs that formerly were done on intML Mar 25 20:38:47 we just had to obey some annoying rules like not talking about case and design of GTA04 etc Mar 25 20:39:16 which always was a bit of an annoyance when doing internal EE etc discussions on pubML Mar 25 20:40:03 where do your discussions take place now? Mar 25 20:40:11 here Mar 25 20:40:43 there's no "your" anymore. OM_the_inc is out of phone business Mar 25 20:41:07 I thought you were the community Mar 25 20:41:24 and I have no clue if and what Sean discusses now, where, and with whom Mar 25 20:42:05 yes, we are the community, and I talked about "we, the OM_inc" with lindi Mar 25 20:42:57 there's no more such "we, the OM_inc" discussions anywhere Mar 25 20:43:07 there's only "we, the community" now Mar 25 20:43:17 and you either are a part of it, or not Mar 25 20:43:22 indeed Mar 25 20:43:24 up to you to dcide Mar 25 20:45:10 even if you decide you're part of it, you're not in a position to blame anybody else about what we cureently do with wiki or whatever. You may suggest to take responsibility and contribute Mar 25 20:45:27 indeed Mar 25 20:46:11 but we don't need anybody questioning our attitude and ways we do things Mar 25 20:47:17 and if Roh doesn't like to get pestered by random inquiries and thus decides he doesn't publish his email, then that's absolutely legit Mar 25 20:47:18 I'm ok with people questioning my attitude :) Mar 25 20:49:22 we're also not asking your phonenumber and geo-address to send you random packages, just when we think this was the right way to contact you and let you know something Mar 25 20:50:14 and if you think that's ridiculous, then sorry dude Mar 25 20:50:27 I've moved since you last sent me a letter btw :) Mar 25 20:50:37 I really got better things to do in my rare spare time Mar 25 20:50:51 lindi-: I wasn't talking to yu :-D Mar 25 20:51:25 DocScrutinizer: true, you do have something better to do with your time: you have to act as roh's proxy :-) Mar 25 20:51:30 anyway, you moved :-) better place now? Mar 25 20:51:46 rah: yes Mar 25 20:52:16 and if you are not comfortable with this, then use the admin-trac and stop pestering us here Mar 25 20:53:03 I'm comfortable with using you as a proxy, I just think it's absurd Mar 25 20:53:28 that's your cup of tea. I'm not interested in this notion of yours Mar 25 20:53:51 that's the way it is, take it or leave it Mar 25 20:53:55 well, that's maybe not the most productive way but I can understand that someone may want someone else to act as a buffer Mar 25 20:54:10 I mean, we see it for doctor, for businessman, for lots of thing Mar 25 20:55:24 rah: maybe you also want the number of the technicians at Hetzner? So you can directly pester *them* about the broken NIC in that box? Mar 25 20:56:03 DocScrutinizer: I don't think that's a sensible suggestion Mar 25 20:56:19 are you sure you will have much success in doing so, without the proper background info you don'T have Mar 25 20:57:11 then what makes you think pestering Roh or Gismo directly is any different from pestering Hetzner helpdesk or even technicians Mar 25 20:58:15 or - LOL - even _Harald Welte, wherever he just might be Mar 25 21:00:44 are you insisting in private phonenumber of Bill Gates to discuss your windows related problem with him? are you engaging in strange discussions with M$ helpdesk to make them disclose this phone number to you? Mar 25 21:00:44 DocScrutinizer: you've told me that Roh and Gismo are the hosts' administrators Mar 25 21:01:33 so what? where is written this implies your direct contact to them? Mar 25 21:02:12 by whatever means you pick and think are best suited, at the time you choose? Mar 25 21:02:32 DocScrutinizer: it doesn't have to be written down for something to be true Mar 25 21:03:07 errr, yes and 1 + 1 = 2 Mar 25 21:03:20 meh Mar 25 21:03:24 bye Mar 25 21:03:41 DocScrutinizer: in my view, it is reasonable and in fact expected, that a host's administrator will respond to emails from that host's users Mar 25 21:04:44 see? that'S the reason why you won't get the mail addr from me Mar 25 21:04:45 DocScrutinizer: I've never seen that view written down; it's just something that's developed through my experience as both a user and an administrator Mar 25 21:05:46 we are running another procedure here, and we don't care to implement yours Mar 25 21:06:28 to be precise, *Roh* is handling this differently Mar 25 21:07:05 and I won't force anything onto him, and for sure I won't help *you* to do that Mar 25 21:07:49 your aproach is exactly that last drop mentioned in Mar 25 21:07:52 ~questions Mar 25 21:07:53 remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people. Mar 25 21:08:02 you should read that carefully Mar 25 21:08:35 then rethink Mar 25 21:09:09 once again, we owe you nothing Mar 25 21:09:27 you're free to yoin in contributing as a peer Mar 25 21:09:33 join* Mar 25 21:10:52 likewise, I owe you nothing :-) Mar 25 21:10:53 IOW we are not the company you bought your FR from (did you actually?), we are users just like you, just we *do* sth instead of pestering others to do sth in a way we think might be the right one Mar 25 21:14:02 I could never have expected anything from Roh because I had no idea that Roh existed before today Mar 25 21:15:37 I don't expect Roh to answer my questions Mar 25 21:18:09 ok, there's a well established set of procedures to cope with infra problems, there's been comprehensive info on whyt's going on in infra, both organisational and technical. The topic has been discussed ad nauseum. I now declare this a ban'able subject and request stopping any further discussion on it, before the other half of users in this chan also gets nausea or dizziness Mar 25 21:19:10 fascist Mar 25 21:20:42 sigh Mar 25 21:22:42 lindi-: this one was just for personal insult Mar 25 21:24:47 DocScrutinizer: I don't think I can comment on this without being kicked sorry :/ Mar 25 21:25:07 what makes you tink I'd kick you? Mar 25 21:25:21 are you going to call me fascist as well? :-) Mar 25 21:25:50 we can call you communist dictator if you prefer /o\ Mar 25 21:25:58 hehehe Mar 25 21:26:29 anyway, I really do not understand why you are so upset, as he seemed to have stopped asking Mar 25 21:27:50 ( on the other hand, I missed the start of discussion, so that would explain ) Mar 25 21:27:57 well, probably it's been the constant attitude like "you're rogue owners of this valuable info, hand it out to the community! to somebody not related to OM" Mar 25 21:30:27 also this alarmed shouting "if that's your best advice, then we are in real trouble" Mar 25 21:30:54 while evidently this dude knew nothing about the real facts Mar 25 21:31:22 which he compensated by stating false assumptions as facts Mar 25 21:33:54 we had several such guys recently. One of them even started to collect money to hire some goons to make me and Paul hand out sourcecode of calypso, or sth like that (we never ever had those srccodes, btw) Mar 25 21:34:38 soory when I'm getting a bit upset when I smell similar attitude Mar 25 21:35:40 maybe that's the same Mar 25 21:35:53 but yes I have seen Mar 25 21:36:27 DocScrutinizer: maybe you should have collected the money by giving some obsfucated source code, like the osmocombb after using some perl on it Mar 25 21:36:34 and adding fake copyright Mar 25 21:37:16 this dude didn't plan to give money to us, he planned to beat us up Mar 25 21:38:21 ok, so let's do that. I get paid to beat you, you get 30% for saying that I did the job, and I give some fake tarball Mar 25 21:39:10 mad badshit crooks out there Mar 25 21:39:20 :-S Mar 25 21:40:01