**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Aug 26 02:59:58 2013 Aug 26 04:12:53 hmm? Aug 26 04:24:53 are you putting gta04-like mobo into n900 case? Aug 26 04:32:26 yes Aug 26 04:34:22 exactly Aug 26 04:34:47 what's wrong with it? Aug 26 10:49:17 ok, again a kind reminder: there's a new'ish GTA04 project in its early kickoff phase, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142. Registering on tmo is a lightweight process if you want to vote and/or contribute there. Of course you as well can express your interest on GoldeliCo's wishlist: https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Wishlist&referer=GTA04%20Custom (at least that's what I think you can do there, after Aug 26 10:49:18 registering) Don't forget to mention "Neo900" resp "GTA04-N900" as subject you're interested in. Sweetspot is probably ~700EUR Aug 26 11:33:42 DocScrutinizer05: that's a silly poll Aug 26 11:34:32 because i'm willing to pay 500, but i'm even more willing to pay 300 Aug 26 11:50:03 kerio: sorry, that's a silly comment since we are interested what's the maximum price customers are willing to pay Aug 26 11:51:06 I don't think anybody will refrain from buying when device gets cheaper than what s/he been willing to pay at maximum Aug 26 11:53:30 so we can start production when either (according to dos1's list which for Neo900 is 100EUR or more off) we have 100 users willing to pay 600 or more, or when we have 1000 users willing to pay 500 or more Aug 26 11:55:31 let's wait for list straight from Nikolaus, as that one was for GTA04 with some upgrading and new plastic case plans Aug 26 12:00:25 DocScrutinizer05: sad there's no possibility for changing votes in the poll, people's opinions may (and probably will) change over time Aug 26 12:01:43 (and I'd probably get just a board, but selected maximum price I'd pay at all... bleh :/) Aug 26 12:15:28 sorry that's vBulletin. And I think this poll is just to attract interest, the real thing has to happen on Nikolaus' wishlist in the end anyway Aug 26 12:16:28 I pondered quite some time if I should do a poll at all, but knowing tmo users I thought it's probably a brilliant way to attract more interest Aug 26 12:24:16 ok Aug 26 12:36:29 DocScrutinizer05: i've just sent an e-mail to mls about Neo900 Aug 26 12:36:51 mls? Aug 26 12:37:17 maillists Aug 26 12:37:18 :D Aug 26 12:37:58 to openmoko community, openphoenux community and HNS himself Aug 26 12:39:16 mhm, good Aug 26 12:39:20 please see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:JOERG Aug 26 12:40:48 ok Aug 26 12:48:47 great mail :-) Aug 26 12:50:05 please keep in mind that momentum on maemo community and particularly on tmo is a rather volatile thing Aug 26 12:50:41 needs to get a push twice a day, or it will fade away and topic gets obsolete like yesterday's newspaper Aug 26 12:52:35 when i asked for donations to keep maemo.org infra alive, we drummed up like 2500EUR during 2 weeks, another 2000 during the 7 months since Aug 26 12:53:33 despite that fact that I unambiguously explained that recurring donations are way more important than one time huge gifts Aug 26 12:54:19 maybe the analogy is a poorly chosen one, but anyway... Aug 26 12:54:50 expect for maybe <10% of those excited people still to be around in 4 weeks Aug 26 12:55:11 yeah, as usual Aug 26 12:55:50 it still shows that there's at least some momentum to be gained from current N900 owners Aug 26 12:55:51 so we need to hook them *now* ;-D Aug 26 12:56:04 toldya :-) Aug 26 12:56:21 yup, that's why I'm writing those lengthy posts and e-mails :D Aug 26 12:56:30 huge userbase that easily gets excited when *anything* promises a future for fremantle Aug 26 12:58:30 during last council elections they asked me what's my perspective for fremantle's future in maybe 2 years or whatever. Damn that been one flaming when I told there *is* no future for fremantle, it at best stays static since there's no new device in vicinity Aug 26 12:59:06 still I got I think ~80% of votes for council ;-P Aug 26 13:09:43 DocScrutinizer05: binary compatibility with maemo is nice idea, i always wondered if i could launch maemo on GTA04, but was lazy to try ;-) Aug 26 13:10:21 radekp: we need to do that now, rather soonish Aug 26 13:10:58 radekp: see http://www.omappedia.com/wiki/Maemo_Getting_Started Aug 26 13:12:02 nothing lures in future customers better than a youtube video with a demonstration of a running system Aug 26 13:12:05 ahh cool Aug 26 13:21:21 the benefit of maemo fremantle: it has known-to-work power management all the way from userland apps down to special kernel and device drivers Aug 26 13:22:47 we might need to swap some device drivers to meet board config of GTA04(-N900) but I think we then can debug and test those few very thoroughly Aug 26 13:23:46 the suspend-to-RAM concept you followed so far might have its very own nasty problems with power management Aug 26 13:24:02 I strongly suggest to ditch it Aug 26 13:24:19 on OMAP platform it's silly Aug 26 13:26:23 maemo fremantle *somehow* supports it, but for sure has issues (like keyboard not working anymore, and BB5 modem waking up the system anyway after a few seconds) Aug 26 13:27:23 btw I think the kbd issue can get fixed by prepending the suspend command with "sleep 5;" Aug 26 13:27:40 so you can release the enter key befor device goes to sleep Aug 26 13:28:59 nevermind, a maemo system on a OMAP platform doesn't need nor want suspend-to-ANYTHING Aug 26 13:30:49 DocScrutinizer05: why not? Aug 26 13:31:06 why? Aug 26 13:31:14 what is gta04-n900? Aug 26 13:31:21 is it a mobo replacement for n900? Aug 26 13:31:23 fling: like the gta04, but for the n900 Aug 26 13:31:28 oh! Aug 26 13:31:41 I have not tried n900 yet. Aug 26 13:31:52 hopefully it's going to be fully compatible with maemo fremantle, software-wise Aug 26 13:31:53 If it't keyboard good… Aug 26 13:31:59 it's actually not that bad Aug 26 13:32:03 but ctrl is in an awkward position Aug 26 13:32:14 so stuff like ctrl+1 requires two hands Aug 26 13:32:24 :-P Aug 26 13:32:25 er, no, ctrl+1 is fine, ctrl+2 requires two hands Aug 26 13:32:26 I use weird xmodmap :P Aug 26 13:32:39 you can use it on the n900! Aug 26 13:32:47 great! Aug 26 13:32:52 it runs x11 Aug 26 13:32:56 so it is another mobo, right? Aug 26 13:33:04 it's nothing, yet Aug 26 13:33:09 ok. Aug 26 13:33:17 but it is perfect :D Aug 26 13:34:31 buy a n900, they're fairly cheap atm Aug 26 13:35:07 kerio: the price will go up soon… :P Aug 26 13:35:24 DocScrutinizer05: well i was using suspend to ram because there is nothing better for GTA04 :) Aug 26 13:36:49 DocScrutinizer05: i can turn off the LCD and let the cpufreq set CPU to lowest frequency, but then it's somewhere around ~100mA Aug 26 13:38:14 CPU should zero-clock Aug 26 13:38:36 and notick kernel Aug 26 13:39:08 means the whole thing absolutely freezes when no task pending Aug 26 13:39:19 better than suspend to RAM Aug 26 13:39:37 but i guess that needs some patches that are not upstream? Aug 26 13:39:45 even better: it's kinda automagic Aug 26 13:40:01 DocScrutinizer05, dos1: hey! your hype seems to work, you got me excited about "Neo900". And as i read you got Nikolaus on board as well, nice! Aug 26 13:40:36 actually it been nikolaus mailing me who started that whole hype I drummed up Aug 26 13:41:15 oh wow! i wouldn't have expected this from nikolaus Aug 26 13:41:29 I suggested Neo900 several times during last few months, but it wasn't until Nikolaus uttered interest in the idea that I dared to start a hype about it Aug 26 13:42:14 despite I been well aware of the "synergy" effects Aug 26 13:42:17 radekp: with the display turned off, the n900 uses up about... 10mA? Aug 26 13:42:25 without anything using up the cpu Aug 26 13:42:33 rather 5mA Aug 26 13:43:12 don't be silly, nobody uses 2g anymore Aug 26 13:43:24 which is in line with product specs for standby time on 2G Aug 26 13:43:32 meh!!! Aug 26 13:43:40 or then 7mA Aug 26 13:43:52 for 3G Aug 26 13:44:53 I wonder if we can get there on GTA04, since aiui it has modem linked up via USB Aug 26 13:44:59 USB is greedy Aug 26 13:45:22 jesus :s Aug 26 13:46:30 it's rather hard to source umts-modems which fit onto the board Aug 26 13:46:38 that's why iirc Aug 26 13:46:41 I know Aug 26 13:46:54 just saying Aug 26 13:47:55 back for GTA03 USB wasn't an option neither for OM nor for the consultants of Siemens who sold us the MC75i Aug 26 13:48:38 luckily that MC75i had serial fast enough for EDGE Aug 26 13:48:55 and USB we could ramp up for bulk data transfer Aug 26 13:49:44 and all three interfaces (2 * serial, 1 * USB IIRC) were equal in functionality Aug 26 13:50:25 ask Mickey about the details, he knows his muxer ;-D Aug 26 13:51:14 we might find a similar dual-channel solution for the option-modem maybe Aug 26 13:52:07 or just maaaaybe it's even possible to suspend USB when not active, and resume in a fraction of a second Aug 26 13:52:32 anyway OMAP musb core eats some 60mA just for being enabled Aug 26 13:52:49 terible POS Aug 26 13:54:01 there's a reason why OMAP SoC uses McBSP everywhere Aug 26 13:54:31 glorified SPI I think Aug 26 13:56:00 anyway, this wee Nikolaus and me will review the schematics of N900 and GTA04 side by side, and list all the differences and possible problem topics Aug 26 13:56:05 week even Aug 26 13:57:03 then we know more about general feasibility of Neo900 project ;-) Aug 26 13:57:03 n900 schematics? Aug 26 13:57:08 sure Aug 26 13:57:14 where are they? Aug 26 13:57:24 google is your friend ;-) Aug 26 13:57:38 yeah, wonder if all the current chips on gta04 will fit into a n900 Aug 26 13:57:55 of course there are also well (un-)known locations where to get everything Aug 26 13:58:00 it is on maemo wiki :P Aug 26 13:58:20 the schematics? I doubt Aug 26 13:58:29 http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic Aug 26 13:58:32 but wiki has a few links Aug 26 13:58:59 I hope they still work for you Aug 26 13:59:03 and this > http://www.smdcode.com/detail/service-manuals/mobile-phones/nokia/nokia-n900-rx-51-service-schematics-v2.pdf Aug 26 13:59:16 looks ok Aug 26 14:11:31 DocScrutinizer05: i think on GTA04 you can suspend USB, the modem generates interrupt on incoming call/SMS Aug 26 14:11:42 "the whole device is 100% open, you get all the schematics, datasheets and everything" Aug 26 14:11:45 DocScrutinizer05: dafuq? Aug 26 14:12:16 DocScrutinizer05: QtMoko event closes the /dev/ttyHSO port during suspend and then reopens it Aug 26 14:12:59 that's not relevant for maemo Aug 26 14:13:53 and it also is not relevant for 60mA wasted energy on musb core during device active Aug 26 14:14:59 and I'm not even 100% convinced that it will shutdown musb core incl the adjacent 2 or 3 power domains correctly Aug 26 14:15:59 there's at least a power domain for: bus from CPU to musb core; musb core itself; ULPI bus from musb core to PHY Aug 26 14:16:01 DocScrutinizer05: "what we won't hand out are the gerber files to feed the fab with" Aug 26 14:16:16 DocScrutinizer05: will you hand out every file except the gerber files? Aug 26 14:16:22 rah: do you find better ways to annoy me? Aug 26 14:16:34 DocScrutinizer05: this is a reasonable question I think Aug 26 14:16:54 DocScrutinizer05: there are many files that Schaller won't hand out Aug 26 14:17:09 DocScrutinizer05: if this is going to be a Schaller product then you won't get those files either Aug 26 14:17:10 which are in paricular? Aug 26 14:17:18 eagle schematics files Aug 26 14:18:39 DocScrutinizer05: if you're not going to hand them out then your post is fallacious Aug 26 14:19:00 I said all i had to say, in my answer to this dispute on ML Aug 26 14:19:18 jesus Aug 26 14:19:31 you don't deny that your post contains a lie? Aug 26 14:19:47 also please note that i'm neither Nikolaus nor any employee of GoDeliCo Aug 26 14:19:57 ok Aug 26 14:20:06 I don't deny that you annoy me to death Aug 26 14:20:23 how are you going to produce the gerber files? Aug 26 14:20:40 are you going to create a design yourself? Aug 26 14:21:07 how are you going to stop annoying me. You seem to have a habit to do, since move of OM infra Aug 26 14:21:39 why don't you put personal issues aside and we can focus on the work at hand? Aug 26 14:21:51 which is: producing a free phone Aug 26 14:21:52 right? Aug 26 14:22:02 why don't you stop being a ass Aug 26 14:22:35 you don't want to work together to produce a free phone? Aug 26 14:22:42 btw it seems sth is wrong with my ignore list, I could bet on that Aug 26 14:23:07 no, tbh I rather don't "work together" with you, dude Aug 26 14:23:48 the feeling is mutual but I'd much rather have a free phone than a massaged ego Aug 26 14:23:53 *shrug* Aug 26 14:23:58 you been a severe PITA back when it came to keeping OM infra alive, and nothing in your way to pester any annoy people seems to have changed since Aug 26 14:24:55 I much rather do useful work than discussing shit with you Aug 26 14:25:56 and again, *nobody* owes you *anything*, I told you several months (years?) ago and I repeat that now Aug 26 14:27:29 for reducing your medical care invoice: replace "gerber" by "project" when reading my post Aug 26 14:28:19 and keep in mind that I can't speak for GolDeliCo **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Aug 27 02:59:58 2013