**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 05 02:59:58 2013 Oct 05 06:02:56 wow, gta04 gets more and more disappointing over time Oct 05 08:36:49 pabs3: what do you mean? Oct 05 09:37:49 johnsu01: take a look at the messages from hns, DocScrutinizer05, rah and myself on the openmoko community list today/yesterday: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community Oct 05 09:42:37 pabs3: it's been disappointing for a long time sadly Oct 05 09:46:57 Mostly egos yet again Oct 05 09:48:26 * pabs3 sorry if he annoyed anyone Oct 05 09:48:58 pabs3: you didn't Oct 05 09:49:18 I definitely annoyed at least two people :) Oct 05 09:49:20 Actually even though I subscribed to that ML a while ago, you brought it to my attention Oct 05 09:49:30 pabs3: These two people seem to always be annoyed whenever someone disagrees with them Oct 05 09:49:41 So is it worth considering? Oct 05 09:50:27 pabs3: I mostly stopped working on OM/SHR and talking here due to one of them whom I'll qualify as an overegotistic pain in the ass Oct 05 09:50:37 But hey, that's my take on it Oct 05 09:51:20 I don't know. both did a lot of good work on OM and related things and I have to respect that since I did almost nothing Oct 05 09:52:41 it's one thing to work on a project and it's another to work constructively and take into account the opinion of others, especially end users Oct 05 09:53:29 if you only work with in mind the goal to do whatever you want however you want it to be, then I'm not sure I'd qualify that as working in a community Oct 05 09:53:42 Yet again, my take on it Oct 05 10:24:45 "you Oct 05 10:24:45 can't expect to get back enough high quality volunteer contributions Oct 05 10:24:47 from the general public" Oct 05 10:24:55 jesus how arrogant is HNS? Oct 05 10:26:09 although I suppose you shouldn't expect more from someone who sets his email From name to "Dr ..." Oct 05 10:26:30 rah: just checking as it's been a while - any link with roh ? Oct 05 10:26:40 Ainulindale: no, no link with roh Oct 05 10:27:10 Ainulindale: roh is still around on freenode Oct 05 10:27:11 rah: well for the latter, I met the guy and yes, it's pretty much that :-) Oct 05 10:27:21 (herr doktor, that is) Oct 05 10:27:30 :-/ Oct 05 10:34:11 I wish I'd met the guy before I shelled out >£500 for his crappy proprietary phone Oct 05 10:34:51 You already did? Oct 05 10:43:02 what crappy phone is this? (so I know to avoid it) Oct 05 10:43:39 he is talking about the gta04 Oct 05 10:44:17 whats wrong with the GTA04? Oct 05 10:46:09 may things Oct 05 10:46:12 *many Oct 05 10:47:23 mine has an "upgraded" 1GHz CPU which doesn't work properly with modern kernels, meaning I can't actually run a phone OS on it (all of the phone OSes require a modern kernel) Oct 05 10:49:05 there are also problems with battery charging in that the phone will power up when the battery has a threshold amount of energy but that energy is not enough to run the machine for the length of time needed to get it to a state where charging is started properly Oct 05 10:50:40 that means if you discharge your battery completely and try to charge it again, the phone will just continuously turn on, run for a bit and turn off, turn on a while later, run for a bit and turn off, etc, etc. Oct 05 10:51:36 whether it ever manages to get past this loop and boot properly is entirely dependent on how new your battery is and how well your battery holds its charge Oct 05 10:51:40 there is no fix for this Oct 05 10:52:37 also, there is a problem with the CPU's clocking requirements which are noted in an errata Oct 05 10:52:57 there are specific recommendations for the frequency of the clock source provided to the CPU Oct 05 10:53:48 the GTA04 uses a frequency which is not a recommended frequency, which increases the likelihood of problems with the USB bus clocking (which is what we have with 1GHz CPUs) Oct 05 10:54:10 I asked whether HNS was going to change the clock frequency for the next board revision, the A5 Oct 05 10:54:14 he said no Oct 05 10:55:22 there are also problems with power consuption during suspend; the machine draws too much current meaning the battery is drained at a higher rate than is expected Oct 05 10:55:45 that means the machine has to be charged very regularly, to the degree that radekp described as "unusable" Oct 05 10:55:56 this problem has been on-going for over a year Oct 05 10:57:48 well, it's been going on since the machines were made Oct 05 11:04:43 suffice it to say, I am thoroughly unimpressed with both the GTA04 and HNS Oct 05 11:17:16 I'm watching the Neo900 project, a collaboration between DocScrutinizer05 and HNS, with great interest :-) Oct 05 11:22:03 yes I am also interested in Neo900 and will be contributing in various ways to the software Oct 05 11:22:14 reverse engineering and things Oct 05 11:29:10 that's not the kind of interest I mean Oct 05 11:29:47 I mean the kind of interest that you get when passing a car wreck ;-) Oct 05 11:49:33 rah: for what you just said about the quality Oct 05 11:49:38 same thing as the GTA02 all over again Oct 05 11:49:44 GSM sleep, GPS quality Oct 05 11:49:47 etc Oct 05 11:51:44 When it comes to GSM and GPS, I suspect most of the problem is because those doing these projects are too small to get any decent cellular hardware or any real support from the makers of the hardware they do have (i.e Option) Oct 05 11:52:17 jonwil: in the case of GTA02 it was a bad design Oct 05 11:52:21 both for GPS and GSM Oct 05 11:52:47 mostly because QA was done on the basis of stupid use cases I guess Oct 05 11:52:50 ok, I wasn't aware of GSM and GPS on GTA02, just what I know about GTA04/Neo900 Oct 05 11:53:04 jonwil: well both needed some soldering Oct 05 11:53:13 Mine was done by alphaone at the time Oct 05 11:53:17 It was a long time ago :-) Oct 05 11:55:06 well I am interested in the Neo900 because of what it promises to be, a phone that (depending on the cellular model) can support some of the latest cellular telephony standards (there is even talk of an LTE module being an option) and adding a few hardware improvements to the Neo900 whilst retaining all the good things people like about the N900 Oct 05 11:55:25 jonwil: I was interested in that for the GTA02 too Oct 05 11:55:32 Turns out, it was poorly implemented, poorly supported Oct 05 11:55:50 And in the end it forced you to work around a lot of issues Oct 05 11:55:57 Battery, GSM sleep, unstable OS and all Oct 05 11:55:58 GTA02 hardware (cellular radio in particular) was obsolete before it even shipped Oct 05 11:56:15 Yes, I know, but I didn't care about 3G at the time Oct 05 11:56:26 (as I don't care about 4G now) Oct 05 11:57:50 Also, the Neo900 is the best hope people who love hardware keyboards (like me) have for a phone worth caring about Oct 05 11:58:42 on that I see your point Oct 05 11:58:49 although I don't like hardware keyboards Oct 05 11:59:02 mainly because it's a typical point of failure for me Oct 05 11:59:20 (I tend to be rough with my phone :-p) Oct 05 12:00:52 I also love the N900 because its open and hackable, unlike the iPhone, Windows Phone or most Android devices Oct 05 12:02:10 I like that its a full Linux box that I can program in C and C++ (not that Java crap on Android) Oct 05 12:02:40 well full Linux device :) Oct 05 12:03:07 jonwil: so was the GTA02 Oct 05 12:03:11 wasn't the N900 full of blobs? Oct 05 12:03:18 It's indeed nice but if you can't actually make it work on a day to day basis Oct 05 12:03:22 then it's a moot point Oct 05 12:03:32 and that was mainly the problem with GTA02 Oct 05 12:03:42 due to immaturity of the phone stack and OS/distro mainly Oct 05 12:03:49 and obviously, the faulty hardware Oct 05 12:04:16 The N900 has no kernel level blots at all and many of the most important user-level blobs are being replaced as part of CSSU and Neo900 work and etc Oct 05 12:04:39 I for one have been knee deep in the cellular services daemon :) Oct 05 12:04:45 for the Neo900 work that is Oct 05 12:07:19 * pabs3 suggests FSO Oct 05 12:07:33 FSO for what? Oct 05 12:07:42 Neo900 Oct 05 12:07:55 if you mean freesmartphone, then yes the plan is to use fsogsmd as the cellular backend Oct 05 12:08:26 but we need it to support the same interface as the nokia blob so that bits that talk to the nokia blob can talk to fsogsmd Oct 05 12:08:26 excellent Oct 05 12:08:43 oh Oct 05 12:08:57 hence why I have been reverse engineering the nokia blob Oct 05 12:09:25 the goal (per what I have been told) is to make as much N900 software run as-is on the Neo900 without any changes Oct 05 12:10:35 would it be easier to adapt things to the FSO interface? Oct 05 12:11:52 in any case digging into the daemon is fun Oct 05 12:11:55 so I am going to do it :) Oct 05 12:13:03 :) **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 05 13:52:30 2013 Oct 05 15:29:56 HNS doesn't deny being dishonest Oct 05 15:30:03 holy crap Oct 05 20:22:43 I wouldn't deny even when you call me a monster from mars. Not worth the effort Oct 05 20:23:30 trolls trolling. Openmoko servers anybody? Oct 05 20:24:13 rah: finally wrap your head around it - nobody owes you anything! Oct 05 20:24:29 and "open" is not a registered trademark or whatever Oct 05 20:30:40 your trolling never caused anything good to happen (except exposing your troll nature), but it reliably annoyed people every single time. And does as well this time. Don't you think it's time to reconsider your general approach and goals and tactics? Oct 05 22:41:38 DocScrutinizer05: I thought you had me on ignore Oct 05 22:42:27 yeah, the bad thing with ignore lists: they tend to get cleaned out every few months. I'll fix that immediately **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Oct 06 02:59:58 2013