**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Nov 18 02:59:59 2013 Nov 18 04:27:42 fling: hi Nov 18 05:08:53 fling: the only two devices with free wifi firmware I know: ar9170 (carl9170) and ath9k_htc. So if you attach one of those to USB host of neo900, it'll work. The integrated wifi module needs non-free firmware. Nov 18 05:09:00 fling: but why is it an issue for you? Nov 18 05:09:28 The non-free firmware is not running on the main CPU anyway. Nov 18 05:10:02 fling: and even more important, the GSM/UMTS(/LTE optionally) modem will have non-free firmware for sure (but it'll reside on embedded flash). Nov 18 05:10:07 hmm hmmm Nov 18 05:10:31 Can't we put wifi firmware on that flash too? Nov 18 05:11:35 fling: on GSM modem's? Are you kidding? :) Nov 18 05:11:48 fling: can you explain why does it matter for you? Nov 18 05:12:10 (on which flash the firmware is stored I mean) Nov 18 05:14:08 PaulFertser: I want to have only free software on my rootfs Nov 18 05:14:35 fling: you can split the embedded flash into several partitions and keep non-free firmware on a dedicated one. Nov 18 05:21:40 fling: I understand ideological reasons behind that, RMS explained it to me pretty clear, but his reasoning is applicable mostly to himself, _he_ needs to draw a clear line and to serve a role model. _He_ says "we have to live with non-free hardware for now, let's concentrate on fighting for free software". So for him it's obvious he should just reject non-free firmware when it's not integral (and transparent for him) part of some hardware. Nov 18 05:21:57 fling: but why should you follow this exact reasoning? Nov 18 05:22:55 In fact, external firmware is much better for those who wants to RE and write replacement firmware (or perform a security audit etc). Nov 18 05:26:51 PaulFertser: there are also these but they are dead/inactive: http://www.ing.unibs.it/openfwwf http://lekernel.net/prism54/ Nov 18 05:27:27 fling: wifi/gsm firmware are usually not on the rootfs Nov 18 05:27:35 PaulFertser: http://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2011/spring/why-should-i-care-about-that Nov 18 05:27:58 pabs3: right, openfwwf is a great project Nov 18 05:28:07 pabs3: hmm hmm ok Nov 18 05:28:27 fling: eh, what? Nov 18 05:28:41 non-free firmware is here to stay, either get used to it or start doing some reverse engineering Nov 18 05:28:57 fling: that page doesn't explain what difference it makes if non-free fw is stored on rootfs or on some external storage. Nov 18 05:29:04 PaulFertser: wow openfwwf are active again! Nov 18 05:29:19 News - 30/5/2013 First 802.11aa firmware ever released! Nov 18 05:30:04 PaulFertser: don't forget the internal storage of some wifi chips *cough*gta02*cough* Nov 18 05:30:45 personally I would much rather wifi firmware on the rootfs, then I know it exists and that I rely on it Nov 18 05:31:59 pabs3: by external I meant anything that can't be directly read/written by the AP. Nov 18 05:32:45 ah Nov 18 05:34:19 pabs3: I'm afraid many people don't really understand what exactly is wrong about non-free firmware and for some obscure reason they think that if they do not see it, it's somewhat less evil. Nov 18 05:34:30 quite sad Nov 18 05:36:04 The reasons RMS himself advocates for that are somewhat logical and seem clear to me. But I can't really understand why other people keep repeating that. Nov 18 08:18:50 pabs3: you said "non-free firmware is here to stay" Nov 18 08:19:07 pabs3: you think non-free firmware will still be here in 1000 years? Nov 18 08:21:23 I don't know if modern society will be here in 1000 years. but if it is yeah, probably Nov 18 08:26:19 O_o Nov 18 08:26:21 really? Nov 18 08:26:40 you don't have much faith in the free software movement I take it then? Nov 18 08:26:45 or the free hardware movement? Nov 18 08:29:07 rah: free software and free HW are very very different... Nov 18 08:29:18 radekp: I disagree Nov 18 08:29:26 it's not the same thing Nov 18 08:29:30 indeed Nov 18 08:29:37 but they're not very different Nov 18 08:29:56 IMHO Nov 18 08:31:34 for HW you need a lot of money while you can write SW without spending more then a few $ for food and PC power Nov 18 08:32:35 radekp: you don't necessarily need a lot of money; wood is pretty cheap and wood can be used to create free hardware Nov 18 08:32:58 i did wooden GTA04 case - it was not cheap at all to do it... Nov 18 08:33:27 your GTA04 case was not cheap but cheap hardware can be made with wood Nov 18 08:33:34 the thing is that software is done out of zeros and ones Nov 18 08:33:40 HW is made of real things Nov 18 08:34:45 yes that's the difference between them Nov 18 08:34:52 :) Nov 18 08:34:55 but that's basically it Nov 18 08:35:01 that's the only difference in kind between them Nov 18 08:35:19 dont get me wrong - i am fan of both free SW and free HW Nov 18 08:47:20 rah: perhaps I'm too pessimistic, but I wonder where your optimism comes from Nov 18 08:50:14 I like my gta02 case Nov 18 09:09:53 pabs3: my optimism comes from a recognition that people understand the importance of freedom Nov 18 09:11:13 pabs3: if the freedom involved in free ware, given a choice between free software/hardware that will get the job done, and proprietary software/hardware that has bells and whistles, they will choose the free option Nov 18 09:11:17 oops Nov 18 09:11:52 pabs3: if the freedom involved in free software/hardware is explained to them then given a choice between free software/hardware that will get the job done, and proprietary software/hardware that will get the job done, they will choose the free option Nov 18 09:12:54 pabs3: all the free software and free hardware movements have to do is (1) ensure that there is a free option that will get the job done, and (2) explain the freedom involved Nov 18 09:19:11 pabs3: http://myrtle.settrans.net/~rah/digital-freedom.txt Nov 18 09:27:22 OLinuXino uses ARM, are you sure it should be listed there? Nov 18 09:28:18 pabs3: yes Nov 18 09:28:33 pabs3: see the section "Board designs" Nov 18 09:30:22 well, "Chip manufacturing" and "Board designs" Nov 18 09:56:10 hmm, ok Nov 18 11:28:21 it is my first time to broke a board by kernel Nov 18 11:28:43 it seems that I break the OTG port, then I can't flash system anymore Nov 18 19:53:45 hello fellas, could someone tell me if vala-dbus-binding-tool is still maintained? Nov 19 00:11:30 free hardware, pffff! Nov 19 00:14:14 free food! yeah! finally tell us what you mix into our cookies! Nov 19 00:15:53 honestly all those zealots that get a heart attack from arguing why firmware-DATA (a program is also just DATA until it gets executed by a CPU!) mustn't live on a certain storage Nov 19 00:16:25 while they don't pester assholes like Nestle and monsanto and dunno whom Nov 19 00:16:39 how insane Nov 19 00:17:51 sophism on abstract ideology with no relatzion to real life Nov 19 00:18:07 relation* **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Nov 19 02:59:59 2013