**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 24 03:00:00 2016 Nov 24 03:14:51 arossdotme: yeah, I mean the standard tools, rather than an obscure repo Nov 24 03:15:18 yea its in the standard tools now Nov 24 03:15:45 when i first learnt of it all them years ago (heh) it was a repo now its mainline :) Nov 24 03:16:06 sudo apt-get install alsa-tools-gui and run hdajackretask Nov 24 03:16:11 debian or ubuntu Nov 24 03:19:32 I wouldn't class alsa-tools-gui as standard, it isn't (for example) available by default under GNOME/KDE/Xfce. Nov 24 03:42:10 * pabs3 looks at the screenshots https://screenshots.debian.net/package/alsa-tools-gui Nov 24 04:00:31 arr ok Nov 24 04:00:45 yea its a optional technical extra Nov 24 08:11:55 http://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/713-microG_on_Jolla Nov 24 09:27:15 I'm not going to run any stupid android apps, on any platform. Nov 24 09:33:04 "various messengers, namely Telegram, Facebook Messenger, Threema and GroupMe" Nov 24 09:33:07 *facepalm* Nov 24 09:33:24 why bother with an "open smartphone" at all? Nov 24 09:33:59 That whole Jolla campaign was never targetting free software and hardware enthusiasts, it was just a way to get another "mobile OS" on the market. Same with "ubuntuphone", "firefoxos", tizen etc. Nov 24 20:26:42 PaulFertser: that's certainly true regarding hardware; I don't think it's entirely fair regarding the actual software in the case of Firefox OS or Ubuntu Phone Nov 24 20:27:30 antrik: they just have to reuse plenty of blobs written for android, right? Nov 24 20:27:51 Video driver, "radio" etc Nov 24 20:28:22 right. there isn't really much an ISV could do about this... Nov 24 20:28:49 Samsung *could* with Tizen, if they cared, but they don't Nov 24 20:29:33 Ubuntu and Mozilla do care to some extent, but they don't have the means Nov 24 20:30:07 antrik: they can spend some resources on RE though. Nov 24 20:30:39 antrik: it's been done before, by volunteers. So it can be done with corporate support for sure. It's just that they do not care. Nov 24 20:31:54 PaulFertser: it has never been done by volunteers to a sufficient extent; and more importantly, it's not possible to do in a time frame where it actually makes a difference Nov 24 20:32:53 by the time RE efforts have progressed to a kinda usable state, devices are already outdated Nov 24 20:33:15 antrik: morphis did that to an extent that calls and messages were working Nov 24 20:33:28 antrik: single-handed Nov 24 20:34:04 aside from niche open hardware projects, the only platform that *might* be realistic target for RE drivers is the Fairphone, because of the extended product lifetime promise Nov 24 20:34:31 PaulFertser: I'm perfectly aware of that. I'm also aware that it took him two years, and that it was just barely usable at this point Nov 24 20:34:43 antrik: but he was alone and unfunded Nov 24 20:35:42 antrik: anyway, both ubuntuphone and firefoxos essentially failed, so their deal with the devil never payed off. Nov 24 20:36:36 PaulFertser: well, if you can gather a few millions to fund a bunch of top-notch engineers to spend a dozen man-years or so on such an effort, be my guest :-) Nov 24 20:37:21 yes. Firefox OS failed because Mozilla didn't have the means to keep it going, even *without* sinking extra funds into RE Nov 24 20:38:03 Ubuntu Phone... has failed to make an impact so far, but last I heard Canonical was still behind it, so I don't think you can call it a failure just yet Nov 24 20:38:47 antrik: the very idea of using "web technologies" for anything at all is sick. Because all "contemporary web technologies" are a pile of random crappy junk... Nov 24 20:40:31 PaulFertser: I agree that the "web platform" is flawed and is being overused; I do not entirely agree that it's a bad idea in all cases though Nov 24 20:41:14 I still think Firefox OS would have been much more attractive if they started supporting web-based extensions sooner... Nov 24 20:41:24 but IIRC we already had this discussion once :-) Nov 24 20:42:11 We might have indeed, since I'm too stubborn to change my views on core principles. Nov 24 20:43:04 My point today is: using Jolla, Tizen, et al is no better for a free software enthusiast than using Android. Nov 24 20:46:08 And calling a platform "open" is a hypocrisy when it's actually the same as android. Nov 24 20:50:45 that's probably entirely true for both Jolla and Tizen. not sure what others you have in mind here. Ubuntu is definitely better that a typical Google-infested vendor Android build -- though not substantially better than CyanogenMod I guess... Nov 24 20:53:08 aside from licensing, a GNU/Linux-based system is still somewhat more hackable than Android's weird stuff though I'd say... Nov 24 20:53:12 CM or some other popular "opensource" versions, yes. I wasn't even considering stock "roms" with vendor android fork. Nov 24 20:53:36 But you can install whatever in chroot, right? Nov 24 20:55:30 PaulFertser: not easily, unless the system comes with this Jolla thing (forgot the name) that's also used by Ubuntu and Firefox OS to provide a more standard GNU-like environment... Nov 24 20:56:20 hm... actually, I'm not sure whether Firefox OS used it too Nov 24 20:58:03 PaulFertser: Tizen does have the advantage that it's actually a native GNU/Linux environment -- though the commercial devices come without root access etc., so you have to reflash with a custom image first to do anything interesting with them... Nov 24 20:58:24 (at least they don't seem to be actively locked down from what I heard so far) Nov 24 20:59:06 OTOH, unmodified Tizen devices don't even allow side-loading, so they are worse than Android in that regard Nov 24 21:00:34 antrik: https://wiki.debian.org/ChrootOnAndroid Nov 24 21:15:20 antrik: my friend went through hell of a time (not being a programmer) while customizing the main screen of his samsung galaxy 2 wristwatch. So yes, the big vendors are still arseholes, no matter what OS they use. That's just to customise the screen, not to get root on the device. Nov 24 21:23:39 PaulFertser: running a chroot on Android is easy, as it's only a slightly modified Linux kernel after all; however, you can't really do too much in such a "bare" chroot, without access to the windowing system, the drivers etc. -- that's where the adaptation layer (still can't rememeber the name) comes in Nov 24 21:29:44 antrik: agreed Nov 25 00:34:27 * pabs3 would love to see a crowd-funded RE-and-mainlining group Nov 25 00:35:37 you could even send bills to HW manufacturers and see how they respond ;) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 25 02:59:59 2016