**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jan 21 03:00:01 2017 Jan 21 05:36:34 bunch of interesting discussion about mobile: https://lwn.net/Articles/711876/ Jan 21 07:06:45 My personal opinion is that trying to produce any free software OS for the smartphones targeting mass audience will fail. Jan 21 07:06:58 Only niche projects can be sustainable. Jan 21 07:07:33 Or developing something specific for a paying customer (b2b). Jan 21 07:08:28 So all the efforts to make nice UI are just missing the point entirely. If your target audience are hardcore hackers, they do not care that much about nice UI. Jan 21 08:12:17 pabs3: I don't think Android is where it's at Jan 21 08:12:25 I think we need a nice UI :-) Jan 21 08:12:49 the big problem I see is that you could spend time getting to load Debian on a phone but then what? Jan 21 08:14:15 then you package Plasma Mobile :) Jan 21 08:14:19 where is the dialer (with voip and video support), contacts, network management, etc., all integrated? Jan 21 08:14:26 maybe Jan 21 08:14:36 or package fso-el, as your heart desires :) Jan 21 08:14:41 Plasma Mobile seems to be the only offering so far Jan 21 08:14:58 you can just use telepathy-ring and any Telepathy frontend for that Jan 21 08:15:28 heh, well I don't think fso-el, no offence PaulFertser :-), is not going to win us freedom in the phone sphere :-) Jan 21 08:15:57 does telepathy ring act as a POTS dialer with contacts? Jan 21 08:16:25 too many double negatives before.. Jan 21 08:16:30 heh, well I don't think fso-el, no offence PaulFertser :-), is going to win us freedom in the phone sphere :-) Jan 21 08:16:55 PaulFertser: I think in order to get freedom in the phone sphere, a nice UI is exactly what we need Jan 21 08:17:01 telepathy-ring it is a layer between the oFono daemon and existing telepathy clients Jan 21 08:17:11 so you just use the same UI for SMS as for XMPP Jan 21 08:17:38 I think we need both fso-el and things like Plasma Mobile Jan 21 08:18:00 no manufacturers will take GNU/Linux (as opposed to Android) seriously because there isn't any coherent GNU/Linux phone software and I can just apt-get install Jan 21 08:18:26 isn't Tizen GNU/Linux? Jan 21 08:19:55 it is Jan 21 08:20:31 but it's not a community that has the same goals Jan 21 08:20:53 it's Samsung's baby basically Jan 21 08:21:08 it's a distribution and not just some software Jan 21 08:22:00 it's intended for $corporations to make use of in $products Jan 21 08:22:16 take a Tizen phone and try putting Replicant on it Jan 21 08:22:54 so, like RHEL or Ubuntu :) Jan 21 08:23:39 well, RHEL comes from Fedora and Ubuntu comes from Debian (although, yes, Fedora is still Red Hat really) Jan 21 08:23:49 Tizen is just it's own thing, off by itself Jan 21 08:24:14 they're not interested in community involvement, except paying developers to build an "app" ecosystem Jan 21 08:24:52 everyone in their own corner playing with their own toys Jan 21 08:25:18 exactly Jan 21 08:27:17 if we went to the Tizen people and said "hi, we like your software and we would like to collaborate with you to make it more generally applicable and act as a base for a free mobile phone OS" you'd just get a corporate response Jan 21 08:28:01 as you say everyone is in their own corner playing with their own toys, there's no coherent community Jan 21 08:28:31 there was a community around openmoko but that has dispersed Jan 21 08:28:58 all of the software that came out of that community has languished: FSO, SHR, etc. Jan 21 08:30:51 the GTA04 is a bit of a joke and has totally failed to live up to the hype (although I'm personally biased here) Jan 21 08:31:28 rah: OpenMoko was offering pretty nice (for that time) GUIs, all the options were looking fine and the GUIs themselves were working nicely, I'd say. With such a GUI you can attract ordinary users, but they won't contribute much to the really essential parts of the system. Jan 21 08:32:35 the Replicant are moving forward, glacially, but again, that's based on Android which gets "updated" by Google throwing a new version over the wall every now and then, and it appears even that is in jeopardy; it's very very far from being a community effort Jan 21 08:32:48 mickeyl: any idea if there was ever a Telepathy connection manager for FSO? Jan 21 08:34:06 PaulFertser: well, my understanding is that OpenMoko squandered their momentum by repeatedly stopping development and starting from scratch Jan 21 08:34:43 rah: I wouldn't be so sure, e.g. SHR wasn't affected anyhow by that, and QtMoko was kicking along fine as well. Jan 21 08:35:04 rah: my opinion is that the mass appeal idea was fundamentally wrong. Jan 21 08:35:27 PaulFertser: why do you think the mass appeal idea was fundamentally wrong? Jan 21 08:35:28 It was just impossible to satisfy the market they were aiming for. Jan 21 08:35:44 You just can't compete with corporations there. Jan 21 08:35:48 woah Jan 21 08:36:08 Well, I'm still waiting for the mickeyl post on the topic. I admit I'm just speculating. Jan 21 08:36:33 30 years ago, someone might have said the same thing about servers where GNU/Linux now dominates Jan 21 08:37:00 we can compete with cooporations Jan 21 08:37:04 and more than that, we can win Jan 21 08:37:40 When performance and features is considered, yet. When mass market appeal is the main factor, no. Jan 21 08:38:04 I disagree Jan 21 08:38:15 Do you want to work on something to please Justin Bieber fans? Jan 21 08:38:28 I think it's eminently possible to produce a free software phone OS that has mass market appeal Jan 21 08:38:34 yes Jan 21 08:39:13 I want Justin Bieber fans to take a GNU/Linux system out of their pocket and make a phone call or send a text Jan 21 08:39:36 this is achievable Jan 21 08:39:56 produce the software, and a manufacturer will come along and run with it Jan 21 08:40:18 What mass market free software can be called widely successful? Firefox? Ubuntu? LibreOffice? Android? I'm royally sick of all of that. It's just a different mindset. Jan 21 08:40:34 I see Jan 21 08:40:47 And what's more important, this target audience can't really help with the development. They just consume, and can't give much back. Jan 21 08:41:04 there is more to do than just coding :) Jan 21 08:41:46 Damn, majority of this public can't produce a single worthy bug-report. Many do not even consider going to the bugtracker. Jan 21 08:42:09 PaulFertser: but they can spend money and it's the high cost which prevents hackers like yourself from having access to up-to-date hardware Jan 21 08:42:53 rah: and then you end up working for samsung on tizen or some other shit like that. Jan 21 08:43:20 PaulFertser: that's a whole other issue Jan 21 08:43:33 related, but distinct Jan 21 08:43:54 Do you know any free software project that's used by general audience and doesn't suck? Jan 21 08:44:47 pabs3: I think the thing which will have the most impact right now, by far, is to work on coding a coherent, free phone OS Jan 21 08:45:12 PaulFertser: I feel that there are issues here which are deeper than just technological ones :-) Jan 21 08:47:36 pabs3: when I can put stock Debian on my S3, run "apt-get install bad-ass-phone-system" and start making phone calls, texts, browsing the web and sending email, we'll be in a very strong position Jan 21 08:48:08 fso2 offered about that, apparently didn't help much. Jan 21 08:48:18 For gta02 Jan 21 08:49:47 I notice you qualified that with "about" :-) Jan 21 08:49:54 what did fso2 offer? Jan 21 08:50:08 fso2 was a framework AIUI Jan 21 08:50:43 it's wasn't, like, a "mobile environment" in the way that GNOME et al. are "desktop environments" Jan 21 08:51:33 It was packaged for Debian, worked out of the box, one could use several dialers. Jan 21 08:51:55 but a "mobile environment" is more than just a dialer Jan 21 08:52:13 "phone calls, texts, browsing the web and sending email" are a minimum Jan 21 08:52:21 rah: IIRC wiewo on #replicant is mainlining Linux support for S3 so that can happen at some point Jan 21 08:52:40 pabs3: I know, and I'm very happy about that :-) Jan 21 08:52:49 Web and email are supported in Debian with different browsers and MUAs, it worked fine on gta02. Jan 21 08:52:51 I still need to give his mainline kernel a go Jan 21 08:53:16 PaulFertser: fine for Justin Beiber fans or fine for PaulFertser? ;-) Jan 21 08:53:38 rah: Debian is never fine for those fans. Jan 21 08:54:09 The reason ubuntu was created. Jan 21 08:54:50 * pabs3 gets reminded of http://ral-arturo.org/2017/01/17/debian-puzzle.html Jan 21 08:54:57 PaulFertser: may be :-) I think, though, that it needs a much greater degree of integration than just picking random packages from Debian, again in the same way that GNOME and KDE aren't just collections of random applications, they're a concerted, directed effort to produce a coherent system Jan 21 08:57:02 I see relatively successful hacker/tinkerer-aimed products, I see successful niche projects. I do not see any successful mass-market project that hasn't turned into crap. I might be very wrong, so enough of my rambling. Jan 21 08:59:10 pabs3: I know why Debian is difficult. Because it doesn't ship proprietary firmware by default, because it doesn't integrate flash player by default, proprietary JVM, doesn't offer to automatically install proprietary X.org drivers etc etc. Jan 21 08:59:52 pabs3: because Debian does the right thing and makes sense. Jan 21 09:00:30 Also, because people often use Debian stable when they actually want testing or even unstable but do not realise that. Jan 21 09:00:36 I think by now flash, proprietary versions of OpenJDK and proprietary GPU drivers are no longer needed Jan 21 09:01:55 Yes, I mentioned some past "issues" that helped Debian earn its fame. Jan 21 09:03:37 It's apparent that it's not a marketing problem, but rather an attitude problem. Debian is just a wrong choice for those that do not give a shit. Jan 21 09:05:28 It doesn't seem like Debian did anything wrong regarding its real target audience. With the exception of not providing first-class support for non-systemd init systems, probably. Jan 21 09:10:47 urgh Jan 21 09:10:50 https://plasma-mobile.org/ Jan 21 09:10:59 urgh? Jan 21 09:11:16 this kind of brochure website is a massive turn off Jan 21 09:11:40 I expect it is the opposite for the target audience ;) Jan 21 09:11:59 Overview, Vision, Devices, Tips, Blog, Forums Jan 21 09:12:15 where is "Download"? where is "Community"? Jan 21 09:13:00 pabs3: if they're targetting Justin Beiber fans themselves then I think they're biting off more than they can chew :-) Jan 21 09:13:47 perhaps they just have more web designers on board than they do coders :-) Jan 21 09:17:24 "Download" is under devices, community is the forums I guess Jan 21 09:29:22 a community consisting solely of web forums is a very bad sign IMHO :-) Jan 21 09:29:28 and where is "download source code"? Jan 21 09:29:34 where's the wiki? Jan 21 09:29:59 "wrong, wrong, absolutely brimming over with wrongability" :-) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jan 22 03:00:00 2017