**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jan 30 03:00:01 2017
Jan 30 04:16:00 <antrik> rah: the reason RedHat "gets away" with stuff is that they are pretty good at furthering their commercial interests while honouring community best practices as well as they can, rather than challenging them like Canonical has done in a number of cases...
Jan 30 04:16:55 <antrik> DocScrutinizer05: the systemd cabal didn't *invent* distributions based on immutable base images -- they just jumped on an existing trend
Jan 30 04:17:13 <DocScrutinizer05> of course
Jan 30 04:17:39 <antrik> if they don't do it, they get pushed aside by others doing it, such as CoreOS
Jan 30 04:17:59 <antrik> there is clearly a market for these things, so it will get served, no matter what you do
Jan 30 04:18:15 <antrik> that's not an attack on traditional distributions -- it's just a different niche
Jan 30 04:18:27 <DocScrutinizer05> they jumped the "Apple got it so we need it too" wagon of the "Software as a service" train
Jan 30 04:19:06 <antrik> that doesn't got anything to do with SaaS whatsoever 
Jan 30 04:19:17 <DocScrutinizer05> well, systemd is surely NOT a *niche*
Jan 30 04:19:46 <DocScrutinizer05> not SaaS particularly, just the mindset
Jan 30 04:19:52 <antrik> nor with Apple really... CoreOS is a *server* distribution, as are certain variants of Ubuntu using a similar approach
Jan 30 04:20:55 <antrik> also, there is clearly a market for *desktop* users as well who want to use free software (so Apple etc. is *not* an option), but don't want to bother with package management
Jan 30 04:22:09 <antrik> I don't think anyone proposed abolishing traditional distributions. again, it's just a separate niche. construing this as a stealth attack on the GNU/Linux community is just paranoid
Jan 30 04:24:12 <antrik> also I'd like to remind you that the systemd cabal has reiterated repeatedly that these things they do on their own accord, not something RedHat asks them to. some of them even started as spare time projects, not sponsored by RedHat at all
Jan 30 04:27:08 <DocScrutinizer05> ((paranoid)) you simply don't get it, eh?
Jan 30 04:28:47 <DocScrutinizer05> I give up, I explained every single step in the pretty non-paranoid but plain-to-see conclusion chain
Jan 30 04:29:11 <DocScrutinizer05> I provided links and quotes right "from the horse's mouth"
Jan 30 04:30:02 <antrik> nope, you didn't. you jumbled up various unrelated things to construe some kind of conspiracy that doesn't exist
Jan 30 04:32:34 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm not interested in this discussion with you any longer. You obviously refuse to engage in a discussion based on facts and rather resort to simply denying the obvious and blaming others of inconsistency while you have no arguments beyond your own notion aka belief
Jan 30 04:41:28 <antrik> ditto
Jan 30 04:41:52 <antrik> to every single bit of that statement
Jan 30 04:44:13 <antrik> I actually must congratulate you on this. you described how I feel about your way of arguing much better that I could myself :-P
Jan 30 04:49:49 <antrik> rah: just to be clear: there is nothing wrong with calling out companies on particular problematic actions they take. it's just extrapolations to "they are out to destroy us" that annoy me...
Jan 30 04:53:24 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe start at your own extrapolations making you think you found extrapolations of others
Jan 30 12:35:17 <rah> antrik: but they *are* out to destroy us!
Jan 30 12:35:25 <rah> RED HAT ARE THE EVIL DOERS!
Jan 30 12:35:30 <rah> WAKE UP PEOPLE!
Jan 30 12:35:39 <rah> *ahem*
Jan 30 12:36:12 <rah> antrik: I think that what you said about them honouring community best practices as well as they can does not align with the behaviour highlighted in the linux-audio-dev posts I linked to
Jan 30 12:52:54 <larsc> clearly a case of FAKE CODE
Jan 30 12:56:50 <rah> antrik: I think they're a problem, I don't think they're necessarily out to destroy us
Jan 30 12:58:09 <rah> antrik: I think what I said about a fifth column is possible though; in future, it may well be that others whose goal *is* to destroy us make use of Red Hat's power to do so
Jan 30 12:58:42 <rah> or any other "open source" company with clout
Jan 30 12:59:57 <rah> and by "us", I mean the free software movement
Jan 30 13:00:13 <rah> which might not necessarily be what people here are into
Jan 30 13:12:17 <misc> I am sure there is even red hat people infiltrated on this very channel for the purpose of doing evil stuff
Jan 30 13:14:30 <rah> NO!!!  NOW THEY KNOW WE KNOW!
Jan 30 13:39:49 <bencoh> cylons everywhere
Jan 30 14:14:04 <DocScrutinizer05> nobody said "RH has the goal to destroy us" - what a bullshit! RH has a business plan
Jan 30 14:14:30 <DocScrutinizer05> I'll quiet this nonsense in  here when it's not stopped
Jan 30 14:17:22 <DocScrutinizer05> a business plan doesn't incluse "destroy communities like Blofeld" and it also doesn't include paying Kennart for doing things the company doesn't want him to do
Jan 30 14:18:46 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry I don't have the link anymore, but RH even published that business plan a almost 10 (iirc) years ago
Jan 30 14:25:32 <rah> DocScrotumizer05: You have ops here?
Jan 30 14:30:16 <DocScrutinizer05> ok, there's a very recent "business plan" published - and fun to read: >> Candidates for membership in the Red Hat GSI partner program must have: • minimum annual revenue of $2,000,000,000 USD or equivalent in foreign currency<<
Jan 30 14:31:23 <DocScrutinizer05> those are the system integrators RH is looking for, and systemd cabal is tailoring whole linux to meet their requirements
Jan 30 14:35:27 <DocScrutinizer05> https://partnercenter.force.com/s/programs_RH_GSI.pdf real fun
Jan 30 14:43:59 <DocScrutinizer05> facts are: RH searches business partners (= customers) which are system integrators with minimum annual revenue of $2,000,000,000 USD; Lennart in his blog mentions system integrators as one of the main target groups for the changes in linux the systemd cabal wants to (and did) establish, and last not least RH is Lennart's employer. 
Jan 30 15:02:22 <DocScrutinizer05> When nobody told Lennart what to achieve in systemd cabal, this only shows he's a obedient and faithful solder of his employer who doesn't need orders to do the right thing
Jan 30 15:03:26 <DocScrutinizer05> but excuse me when I have litthe ztust in Lennart's word, he too often changed his mind a six months later
Jan 30 15:03:33 <DocScrutinizer05> trust*
Jan 30 15:14:58 <DocScrutinizer05> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd#Breaking_promises_and_immaturity
Jan 30 15:27:44 <DocScrutinizer05> my favorite: >>systemd kill background processes after user logs out - Poettering's answer: In my view it was actually quite strange of UNIX that it by default let arbitrary user code stay around unrestricted after logout.<<
Jan 30 15:34:03 <DocScrutinizer05> also golden: >>Systemd mounted efivarfs read-write, allowing motherboard bricking via 'rm'<<
Jan 30 15:35:36 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders how many billions [SIC] of bucks worth in ruined hardware and wasted sysop time the systemd cabal already caused, and if ever somebody will call them out on that
Jan 30 15:36:31 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh I missed to account for "loss of revenue due to mission critical system downtime"
Jan 30 15:37:19 <misc> I am sure RH will crash due to systemd anytime soon once RHEL 7 is released
Jan 30 15:46:36 <DocScrutinizer05> a friend working in https://www3.arbeitsagentur.de/web/content/DE/service/Ueberuns/WeitereDienststellen/ITSystemhaus/index.htm as sysop maintaining the linux systems. they already switched to SLES based systemd. LOTS of FUN when I told him about https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/how_to_crash_systemd_in_one_tweet and he confirmed _all_ of the few thousand linux servers were vulnerable to that. Up to anybody's guess how much it cost 
Jan 30 15:46:38 <DocScrutinizer05> them to cope with that, and how much it would have cost them when my friend wouldn't have brought it up pre-exploitation
Jan 30 16:06:57 <DocScrutinizer05> about RH allegedly not instructing systemd cabal what to do:  https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/how_to_crash_systemd_in_one_tweet/comment/31758 >>the majority of systemd development work is funded by, and done by, RedHat employees<<
Jan 30 19:31:44 <DocScrutinizer05> I mean, they calling themselves "systemd cabal" is already a sign of arrogant sarcasm
Jan 30 19:34:45 <DocScrutinizer05> but no worries!
Jan 30 19:34:51 <DocScrutinizer05> ~freee
Jan 30 19:34:51 <apt> freee is probably http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZTdUmlGxVo0&t=3296
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jan 31 03:00:01 2017