**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 26 02:59:57 2019 Feb 26 09:10:19 pity no one is making a linux-based "feature phone". I'd love to work on an OS for something like that. no frickin' package management, no big middleware for all kinds of clients, just a pure phone manager with a small set of plugins. *sigh* Feb 26 09:10:41 yes, i know, there is no market for that. still... Feb 26 09:12:28 the formfactor of the WiPhone would be perfect for that Feb 26 10:11:17 mickeyl: there was actually, based on RPi Feb 26 10:11:42 https://wiki.zerophone.org/index.php/Main_Page Feb 26 10:12:41 also http://a.wiphone.io/ Feb 26 10:13:13 well, the WiPhone isn't Linux based but will be OSS Feb 26 10:13:19 Yeah, waiting for the ZeroPhone to actually show up. Feb 26 10:13:50 I saw a ZeroPhone in 2017, surprising they didn't build it yet Feb 26 10:13:53 No Linux wouldn't be a problem, no GSM is a problem for me. Feb 26 10:14:27 Saw it @ FOSDEM2018 and he said there's only one little problem left. Feb 26 10:14:31 But I know how these things go. Feb 26 10:14:31 is GSM still a thing where you are? here it is completely gone (3G still around tho) Feb 26 10:15:04 Absolutely. In Germany we don't have WiFi everywhere. Feb 26 10:15:08 not yet at least. Feb 26 10:15:18 10 years from now maybe. Feb 26 10:15:24 but until then, I need voice-GSM in a handset Feb 26 10:17:22 someone on #osmocom recently mentioned getting osmocombb working on sciphone dream g2 btw Feb 26 10:18:15 that is a smartphonish thing tho Feb 26 10:34:05 my obsession about feature phones is that I'd love to have a real number-keyboard plus a number of soft keys and standby that lasts at least a week. Feb 26 10:36:55 that's why ideally I'd love to see an E-ink display, which should be fine for phone/contacts/messages. Feb 26 10:39:20 https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light-phone-2#/ has at least the display, but is lacking a number keypad. Feb 26 10:39:36 and I'm not sure it runs an open OS in the first place Feb 26 10:40:09 oh it does. LightOS (modified Android) Feb 26 10:53:30 yes, I would use dumb feature phone with GSM (smartest feature might be to create wifi hotspot for my other device), this could last week and I would use it really only for voice calls over GSM Feb 26 10:53:50 and it could be relatively small Feb 26 10:54:57 and then some other device with bigger screen, hw keyboard like the cosmo comunicator od GPD Micro PC which could do everything else Feb 26 10:55:19 and occassionally use 4G network through the AP on small feature phone Feb 26 10:56:10 even SMS could be routed from the small feature phone to the bigger brother where I could reply on full hw keyboard (or from PC) Feb 26 10:57:22 but then I would say, that BT headset would be useful on the small feature phone as well.. and then probably something else and in the end it might not be as dumb as we would like it to be Feb 26 10:57:59 maybe something a bit more restricted than new palm companion device Feb 26 11:15:40 * pabs3 wonders if making a phone out of the Linux-based LTE modems would be feasible Feb 26 11:24:32 based only on the PLS8 with no other SoC, for instance? Feb 26 11:26:02 (or, strike that, the pls8 wasn't the one with a linux firmware ... or was it?) Feb 26 11:31:47 I was thinking of these ones: https://osmocom.org/projects/quectel-modems/ Feb 26 11:32:09 ISTR Harald mentioning other ones in the blog post about it tho Feb 26 11:33:23 https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-8151-dissecting_modern_3g_4g_cellular_modems Feb 26 11:35:12 http://git.gnumonks.org/laforge-slides/plain/2016/cellular_modems_33c3/33c3-modems.html Feb 26 11:56:13 I saw the ZeroPhone @ FOSDEM2019 Feb 26 11:56:36 from what I could hear from the back of the room (which wasn't much), there's still some way to go but it's getting there Feb 26 11:56:56 a kit package was passed around Feb 26 11:57:41 which was a plastic sheet with bubbles containing each of the components Feb 26 13:20:00 @mickeyl if you're interesting on working on an OS, consider helping the project =) One thing I forgot at the meetup (among others) is a call for action - we could really use some software-related help Feb 26 13:21:19 so i.e. if you could help make us make a solution for building SD card images, that'd help a lot Feb 26 13:21:45 since that's one less task I have to do, and at the moment I have to do it manually => doesn't help the situation Feb 26 13:21:53 I send out hardware to people that help with stuff Feb 26 14:07:50 re 2G aka GSM: in Germanyx (Europe?) there's a bazillion of M2M applications out there that use 2G. Starting with vending machines selling prepaid charge-up cards for SIM and not ending on fleet management. Nuking 2G would probably instantly kill our industry Feb 26 14:12:32 2G is like the least common denominator fallback for all connectivity solutions, no matter if a GPS tracker to tack und a suspect's car or the deer's necklace or eagle's tracker or the emergency phone on a ski lodge or the remote control for the car alarm and theft protection Feb 26 14:13:47 and afaik *all* new RAT - be it 3G 4G even 5G allows seamless integration of 2G support Feb 26 14:19:32 afaik 2G is (or was) still the only RAT that allowed worldwide coverage, and with only 4 bands which is the reason why you could have worldwide coverage. For LTE for example afaik you needed to support over 50 bands to have *almost* worldwide Feb 26 14:25:26 it's basically mainly USA where companies are free to cheat on their custromers any way they want since authorities don't do shit to have some minimum of common sense in technology development, where companies are free to discontinue 2G and thus obsolete customer infra investments in the billions to force them spend nerw money on next technology that again will be obsolete after only 3 years Feb 26 14:45:16 history: USA had some friggin CDMA, then GSM (developed in Germany btw) went global standard, only USA already started diversification again by introducing their own 850/1900 instead of the global 900/1800. Yet in the early days of GSM the world been a better place for communication technologies since it seemed as if we were on a path to reduce the number of local incompatibilities and eventually have a global uniform regulation, Feb 26 14:45:17 like with FM (88-108MHz, USA again did their own shit back when). Then came 3G and all hell broke loose Feb 26 14:47:03 wrt. M2M, indeed, I didn't think of that in the first place, but there are probably 10 million cars equipped with 2G SIM cards out there sending data back home. Feb 26 14:47:08 anyway it's pretty easy to se the pattern, being: it's always USA to start messing up global standards, usually to protect their own industry Feb 26 14:47:22 mickeyl: indeed Feb 26 14:48:28 so we can safely say that 2G is going to be relevant for some more decades. And while it's there, we can as well use it for voice communication. Feb 26 14:48:38 if USA has the choice to follow a global standard or invent their own incompatible variant, they always opt for the latter Feb 26 14:49:14 mickeyl: I'd say yes Feb 26 14:50:23 actually it's not "the USA" but particularly USA industry, which does so, uncontrolled by any authorities and official regulations Feb 26 15:08:10 btw a friend of mine is system admin at Bundesanstalt fuer Arbeit and he always preferred (HS)CSD over GPRS for his ssh session to fix and reboot some runaway servers, since GPRS round trip time always been unbearable Feb 26 15:09:16 alas nowadays it's almost impossible to find modems that still support CSD, or providers that allow/provide CSD internet dial-in Feb 26 15:09:51 so with 2G you have to live with RTT up to 5s Feb 26 15:23:24 *nod* I thought FSO could be the middleware for some M2M applications and IIRC both the Calypso the all the SIEMENS/Cinterion modems features CSD, so I added support for it. Feb 26 15:23:38 s/Calypso the all/Calypso and all/ Feb 26 15:23:39 mickeyl meant: *nod* I thought FSO could be the middleware for some M2M applications and IIRC both the Calypso and all the SIEMENS/Cinterion modems features CSD, so I added support for it. Feb 26 19:52:29 a pity FSO didn't receive the attention it should have Feb 27 00:47:43 DocScrutinizer05: 2G is going away in Australia too, some networks already dropped it Feb 27 00:48:19 are you sure they don't run those new bands in compatbility mode? Feb 27 00:48:54 fairly yeah Feb 27 00:49:25 they only need one frequency slot for the 2G control channel , rghe rest can get assigned dynamically when needed Feb 27 00:49:26 a friend had to drop their feature phone recently Feb 27 00:49:48 ok, then it's obvious they don't support 2G anymore Feb 27 00:49:52 sickers Feb 27 00:50:02 suckers even, sick suckers Feb 27 00:51:22 I'd be highly interested in the results of a 2G-only device searching networks Feb 27 00:51:54 quite possibly they would not support 2G if another network already does Feb 27 00:52:12 we're slowly replacing ADSL with VDSL/fibre too Feb 27 00:53:27 that's a non-issue since you have full control over your customers' eqwuipment, after all it's often even provided by the provider Feb 27 00:54:13 for WWAN however you have no idea whatsoever who's roaming around using a 2G only device Feb 27 00:54:28 not here, you can buy your own DSL routers, for fibre you aren't allowed to do that tho Feb 27 00:54:52 birds with geospotting backpack, cars with emergency call, whatever Feb 27 00:55:33 containers with fleet management Feb 27 00:57:35 but yeah, the good old times of common sense are gone forever, where for example color TV didn't obsolete b&w, or streo radio broadcast still allowed mono receivers Feb 27 00:58:23 or 3G phones still could do phonecalls everywhere in the world using 2G Feb 27 01:00:14 tbh I probably picked the best of all times for a living and I'm happy I don't have to suffer witnessing this new leete shit for any longer than max another 30 years, and even that will be a PITA Feb 27 01:03:49 would cost them something like 1 to 2.5% of their bandwidth to support 2G even on 4G or 5G BTS Feb 27 01:04:46 and sure, customers will appreciate 2% more throughput when cell is crowded >:-( Feb 27 01:05:16 5G seems silly, it sounds like they are going to have to put antennas in about the same density as WiFi networks Feb 27 01:05:29 yep Feb 27 01:05:51 no other way to get the bandwidth Feb 27 01:06:28 at that point you may as well just use WiFi, though I suppose that is slower :) Feb 27 01:07:42 * pabs3 brb Feb 27 01:07:42 it's a falacy by fundamental concepts / goals. They aim for RTT lower than recent ADSL, to rtemote-contzrol cars etc pp, GO FIGURE!!! why the heck do the think a "back to the mainframe concept" was a faintly smart approach? Feb 27 01:09:40 my virtual reality scene gets rendered on a server of some game maker while my devices 8 cores are meanwhile abused to render silly overloaded websites' javascript Feb 27 01:10:21 make a lot of sense from the game maker's perspective, you don't even start to worry about copy protection or anything Feb 27 01:13:52 next war they don't use mortars and bombs, they simply use RF jammers and probably even the enemy's tanks will stop moving Feb 27 01:17:13 even if the tanks would still work autonomously, they wouldn't be worth shit when literally everything else stops working, from cars clogging every street to water supply to atomic power plants going core melt **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Feb 27 02:59:56 2019