**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Nov 28 05:51:43 2006
Nov 28 06:39:35 <rob_w> so is there anyting else to see yet beside the press release and some pdf `s presentations
Nov 28 08:55:48 <hrw|work> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7481799748.html
Nov 28 09:55:28 <Stephmw> koen: yup, saw that this morning
Nov 28 09:56:42 <hrw|work> I think that this is TT responce to openmoko
Nov 28 09:57:45 <koen> ehm
Nov 28 09:57:48 <koen> saw what?
Nov 28 09:57:53 * koen is a bit slow this week
Nov 28 09:59:40 <hrw|work> 28 10:22 < hrw|work> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7481799748.html
Nov 28 10:01:49 <Kaloz> hrw|work: they didn't give out the kenrel sources, yet..
Nov 28 10:01:54 <Stephmw> hrw|work: possibly - I'll have to see when I get the bits
Nov 28 10:02:01 <Kaloz> hrw|work: and the sdk iso was called back, too
Nov 28 10:03:45 <hrw|work> Kaloz: thats why developers know
Nov 28 10:04:07 <hrw|work> Kaloz: marketoids will rather see 'TT gives you lot of software to choose from'
Nov 28 10:04:12 <Kaloz> :p
Nov 28 10:04:40 <hrw|work> Kaloz: selling phones depend on marketoids not on developers
Nov 28 10:05:44 <Kaloz> depends on the target audience
Nov 28 10:06:38 <hrw|work> if you want to target *only* developers then ok.
Nov 28 10:07:12 <hrw|work> but how many will sell to them? how many of them will get it as 'yet another gadget from thinkgeek type'?
Nov 28 10:07:50 <Kaloz> you cna target the developers/geeks, let them play with the toys and create something nice, fast and good, and then sell it for the masses with a little marketing :P
Nov 28 10:08:21 <hrw|work> time will show
Nov 28 10:08:32 <lardman> does it do Outlook syncing?
Nov 28 10:09:00 <lardman> that'll make a difference to 'users'
Nov 28 10:09:43 <hrw|work> good point lardman 
Nov 28 10:10:02 <hrw|work> does it sync at all?
Nov 28 10:10:10 <hrw|work> can I sync it with kdepim?
Nov 28 10:42:44 <Laibsch> For those who understand German: http://teltarif.de/arch/2006/kw48/s23969.html  I am glad we will not have to put up with that.
Nov 28 11:41:25 <CM> Laibsch: I'd be pissed if I had payed for the UMTS bandwidth, but can't use it for what I want
Nov 28 11:41:40 <CM> Also, Kannibalisierungsgefahr is a funny word ;)
Nov 28 12:26:13 <buz> the term is pretty well entrenched in management literature though
Nov 28 12:27:14 <buz> personally i wonder about the sister company of htc thing
Nov 28 15:50:32 <Tali> hello
Nov 28 15:50:53 <stefan_schmidt> hi Tali 
Nov 28 16:04:45 <Tali> I just read about OpenMoko, is there more information available about it, besides the one webpage?
Nov 28 16:05:16 <hrw|work> no
Nov 28 16:05:33 <stefan_schmidt> in the maillinglist archiv
Nov 28 16:06:07 <Tali> so it is not an open development community, yet?
Nov 28 16:06:45 <stefan_schmidt> open suggestions community
Nov 28 16:06:47 <stefan_schmidt> :)
Nov 28 16:07:02 <Tali> who is driving the development?
Nov 28 16:07:21 <stefan_schmidt> When the first phone will be shipped the coe will be available
Nov 28 16:07:33 <Tali> ah, ok :-)
Nov 28 16:07:34 <stefan_schmidt> A team of free software developer working for FIC
Nov 28 16:08:30 <stefan_schmidt> The devs are already done many oss contributions in private and other projects
Nov 28 16:09:17 <Tali> very interesting
Nov 28 16:10:52 <stefan_schmidt> Tali: They hired Michael Lauer from openemdedded project and Harald Welte from OpenEZX, netfilter and other kernel stuff.
Nov 28 16:11:01 <Tali> do you know if they intent to build something which is generic enough to be easily portable to other hardware?
Nov 28 16:11:10 <stefan_schmidt> yes, they will
Nov 28 16:11:57 <koen> that's what OpenEmbedded is for :)
Nov 28 16:12:08 <stefan_schmidt> We already plan to use openmoko on the Motorola EZX phones and somebody will make it useable for HTC
Nov 28 16:12:20 <Tali> so I will have to ask LaF0rge about details some day...
Nov 28 16:13:31 <stefan_schmidt> Tali: Yes. January or better february. ;)
Nov 28 16:14:37 <koen> after the launch in jan we should get FIC management drunk so they can create work for the next two days
Nov 28 16:15:35 <stefan_schmidt> heh
Nov 28 16:15:52 <stefan_schmidt> nice launch party in taiwan? ;)
Nov 28 16:17:06 <mikesh> maybe some place in europe can be better than taiwan
Nov 28 16:17:18 <so_solid_moo> London! \o/
Nov 28 16:18:19 <mikesh> what about Prague? heart of europe :)
Nov 28 16:18:25 <stefan_schmidt> heh
Nov 28 16:18:32 <stefan_schmidt> Schoeppenstedt
Nov 28 16:18:47 <stefan_schmidt> Small town in germany. Only 7000 people. ;)
Nov 28 16:19:05 * stefan_schmidt is away. Food
Nov 28 19:12:24 <buz> oh the competition is releasing the next device: http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/28/a-few-more-spy-shots-of-nokias-870-internet-tablet/
Nov 28 19:12:27 <buz> neat design
Nov 28 19:13:53 <hrw|tv> I do not like all buttons on one side
Nov 28 19:14:02 <buz> i dont like the lack of GSM
Nov 28 19:14:07 <buz> other than that is looks tasty
Nov 28 19:14:44 <koen> I like the lack of gsm
Nov 28 19:15:42 <Virtuall> :P
Nov 28 19:15:48 <hrw|tv> 'internal memory has been bumped to 180MB' - still 64M ram and a bit more of flash?
Nov 28 19:15:56 <koen> hrw|tv: probably
Nov 28 19:16:04 <buz> still no perfect convergence device running linux
Nov 28 19:16:14 * hrw|tv want pda with 128M+
Nov 28 19:16:29 <hrw|tv> smallest possible vga bt/wifi
Nov 28 19:16:47 <koen> ipaq hx2750
Nov 28 19:16:54 <buz> i want 128m, qwerty, vga, wifi, gsm
Nov 28 19:17:00 <hrw|tv> koen: haret still...
Nov 28 19:17:05 <koen> and qvga
Nov 28 19:17:10 <koen> and hp dropped it
Nov 28 19:17:14 <hrw|tv> buz: htc universal?
Nov 28 19:17:18 <buz> way too big
Nov 28 19:17:19 <koen> they silently replaced it with 64MB ram
Nov 28 19:17:20 <xorAxAx> still the slow processor?
Nov 28 19:17:20 <buz> and winmobile
Nov 28 19:17:38 <buz> if i wanted winmobile, i'd get the ubiquio 501 probably
Nov 28 19:17:42 <buz> but that stuff stinks
Nov 28 19:20:06 <xorAxAx> i just want python :)
Nov 28 19:20:13 <hrw|tv> xorAxAx: you will get it
Nov 28 19:20:24 <hrw|tv> mickey|zzZZzz is OE python mastah
Nov 28 19:20:30 <xorAxAx> hrw|tv: where?
Nov 28 19:20:42 <hrw|tv> xorAxAx: in default feeds it will be available
Nov 28 19:20:49 <xorAxAx> in openmoko?
Nov 28 19:20:52 <hrw|tv> yep
Nov 28 19:20:54 <xorAxAx> or nokia? :)
Nov 28 19:20:57 <xorAxAx> sure
Nov 28 19:21:02 <hrw|tv> who care about nokia?
Nov 28 19:21:05 * hrw|tv not
Nov 28 19:21:41 <koen> maemo makes a great example
Nov 28 19:22:09 <koen> even with a easy to use sdk people end up in packaging hell
Nov 28 19:22:31 <buz> nokia 770 was a way oversized device
Nov 28 19:23:15 <koen> buz: not for an internet tablet
Nov 28 19:23:22 <hrw|tv> buz: hard to tell for me - I had it few times in hand but not used for longer then 15 minutes in total
Nov 28 19:23:29 <buz> well a tablet should consist of a screen
Nov 28 19:23:36 <buz> noth 1/3 of empty space
Nov 28 19:23:50 <koen> 1/3?
Nov 28 19:24:55 <buz> well roughly http://europe.nokia.com/770
Nov 28 19:25:23 <xorAxAx> the sj22 rocks
Nov 28 19:25:32 <xorAxAx> best pda ever, its just missing a few features :)
Nov 28 19:25:40 <xorAxAx> one of the best tfts, very small
Nov 28 19:25:45 <koen> roughly 1/5
Nov 28 19:26:14 <xorAxAx> http://www.hpc.ru/lib/arts/1898/sj22.jpg
Nov 28 19:26:16 <xorAxAx> see that
Nov 28 19:26:31 <xorAxAx> ok, it still has the grey palm frame at the bottom
Nov 28 19:26:39 <xorAxAx> (os 5 devices dont have that anymore)
Nov 28 19:34:54 <[g2]> koen is it possible to run oabi and eabi in the same rootfs ?
Nov 28 20:03:10 <koen> [g2]: only with chroot
Nov 28 20:04:42 <[g2]> koen Ok, so a properly built kernel can deal with either, but the rootfs is an either or choice ?
Nov 28 20:04:53 <koen> yes
Nov 28 20:04:57 <[g2]> THX
Nov 28 20:48:09 <noidd> 'lo
Nov 28 20:48:26 <hrw|tv> hi noidd 
Nov 28 20:48:33 <noidd> hows it going man?
Nov 28 20:49:01 <hrw|tv> 22:14 here, beer is ending
Nov 28 20:49:09 <hrw|tv> time for movie
Nov 28 20:49:44 <noidd> heh
Nov 28 20:49:51 <noidd> 16:14 here
Nov 28 20:50:00 <noidd> Still a few hours left in the work day.
Nov 28 20:50:01 <hrw|tv> 16:14 I was at work
Nov 28 20:50:30 <noidd> Man, I wish time would speed up so we could have a product announcement :-)
Nov 28 20:51:12 <hrw|tv> ;D
Nov 28 20:51:13 <noidd> You wont be;lieve this
Nov 28 20:51:18 <buz> mhh my beer just ended too
Nov 28 20:51:24 <buz> wonder if i should get another one ;)
Nov 28 20:51:28 <noidd> but I converted the entire Windows server team here at work to Linux on their desktops
Nov 28 20:51:39 <hrw|tv> nice
Nov 28 20:51:43 <buz> whoah
Nov 28 20:51:48 <buz> do they already know?
Nov 28 20:51:52 <noidd> Yup
Nov 28 20:51:59 <buz> what distro
Nov 28 20:52:01 <hrw|tv> give me IE6/7 and photoshop for linux and few guys at my work will switch
Nov 28 20:52:10 <noidd> I did it for one of their guys and the rest are in awe at how much easier their job is.
Nov 28 20:52:14 <buz> i have ie6 on linux 
Nov 28 20:52:20 <noidd> I have ie on linux
Nov 28 20:52:26 <noidd> don't use iut anymore but I had it a while
Nov 28 20:52:29 <buz> ie5,5.5,6
Nov 28 20:52:37 <koen> hrw|tv: dillo + xfig ;)
Nov 28 20:52:39 <hrw|tv> I have ie on linux too but it works like shit on it
Nov 28 20:52:43 <buz> 7 might or might not work
Nov 28 20:52:44 <noidd> http://www.codeweavers.com/ ## Payware but worth every penny.
Nov 28 20:52:50 <hrw|tv> koen: we do WEB development at work
Nov 28 20:52:53 <buz> ie can be had without crossover
Nov 28 20:52:57 <buz> vmware
Nov 28 20:53:34 <noidd> Basically, virtual desktops + rdesktop
Nov 28 20:53:50 <noidd> and they can switch from windows host to windows host with a keybinding or mouse gesture
Nov 28 20:53:52 <hrw|tv> GMT is 21:19 now?
Nov 28 20:53:54 <noidd> and they're converted
Nov 28 20:54:06 <noidd> according to my server, yup
Nov 28 20:54:10 <hrw|tv> thx
Nov 28 20:54:19 <noidd> 28 Nov 21:23:17 ntpdate[7100]: step time server 158.152.1.204 offset -281.741182 sec
Nov 28 20:54:24 <hrw|tv> I have to run cronjob on machine which is few hours from here
Nov 28 20:54:41 <buz> 28 Nov 22:18:53 ntpdate[13333]: adjust time server 129.132.2.21 offset 0.078993 sec
Nov 28 20:54:41 <hrw|tv> and I want it to work after 00:00 GMT
Nov 28 20:54:49 <buz> rofl
Nov 28 20:55:16 <buz> why dont you just use date on the machine
Nov 28 20:55:25 <koen> koen@bitbake:~/OE/build$ date -u
Nov 28 20:55:25 <koen> Tue Nov 28 21:21:38 UTC 2006
Nov 28 20:55:40 <noidd> now why would I want to do that? :_)
Nov 28 20:55:46 <hrw|tv> heh.. -u ;)
Nov 28 20:55:50 <noidd> the output from ntpdate is far more parseable :-D
Nov 28 20:55:56 <buz> i meant hrw
Nov 28 20:56:35 <hrw|tv> ok, 22:00 will be ok. no one normal at work and it will be 04:00 gmt
Nov 28 20:56:52 <buz> i wonder just why one would run linux vserver on a pda or a phone
Nov 28 20:57:21 <koen> some people run gentoo on their pda
Nov 28 20:57:28 <koen> you'll always have idiots
Nov 28 20:57:34 <buz> i dont understand why one would run gentoo on a pc, even
Nov 28 20:57:51 <noidd> I use gentoo on my servers and desktops.
Nov 28 20:58:00 <noidd> It makes a LOT of sense on a server.
Nov 28 20:58:10 <noidd> where you want to compile in the minimum amount of functionality you can.
Nov 28 20:58:27 * noidd notes a proFTPD vuln posted yesterday.
Nov 28 20:58:30 <koen> sure getting the latest and greatest software bump up your load makes perfect sense on a producion server
Nov 28 20:58:50 <noidd> its less that and more being able to keep dependancies to a minimum.
Nov 28 20:59:41 <hrw|tv> koen: ever heard about build machines?
Nov 28 20:59:46 <koen> gentoo is lfs for dummies
Nov 28 20:59:58 <CoreDump|home> hehe
Nov 28 21:00:04 <buz> if you want it on a server, use bsd
Nov 28 21:00:13 <buz> gentoo is just a bad copy of that
Nov 28 21:00:19 <hrw|tv> at one company we had few servers running same FreeBSD version. one built ports, rest installed if from nfs
Nov 28 21:00:29 <timtimred> thats harsh, it does allow you to do exotic configurations with ease.
Nov 28 21:00:32 <koen> *bsd makes sense
Nov 28 21:01:10 * CM likes gentoo
Nov 28 21:01:36 <noidd> I have no religeos predication between Linux and *BSD.
Nov 28 21:01:52 <noidd> just don't ever ask me to use any distribution which is based on binary packages
Nov 28 21:01:52 * koen is using a bsd derivate right now
Nov 28 21:02:04 <noidd> (unless its embedded) :-D
Nov 28 21:02:04 <timtimred> hehe, a mac?
Nov 28 21:02:09 <koen> timtimred: yep
Nov 28 21:02:10 <hrw|tv> koen: windows 2000?
Nov 28 21:02:12 <timtimred> me too.
Nov 28 21:04:59 <noidd> I'm guessing still no status updates, hardware, photos or anything else from the project?
Nov 28 21:06:41 <timtimred> i'll own up to having gentoo on a kurobox also.
Nov 28 21:07:14 <timtimred> and some servers, most are RHEL tho
Nov 28 21:08:03 <noidd> also, some of the OpenEmbedded build code is from Gentoo emerge :-)
Nov 28 21:08:03 <noidd> so it can't be that Evil
Nov 28 21:08:19 <koen> actually it isn't any more
Nov 28 21:08:38 <noidd> ebuild is now bitbake ?
Nov 28 21:09:08 <noidd> "Bitbake is a simple tool for executing tasks. It is derived from Portage, the package management system used by the Gentoo Linux distribution. It is most commonly used to build packages, and is used as the basis of the OpenEmbedded project."
Nov 28 21:09:32 <noidd> thats what made me think that bitbake was a continued derivation.
Nov 28 21:09:36 <koen> "derived from" != "some of the code is from"
Nov 28 21:09:50 <hrw|tv> ideas was taken
Nov 28 21:10:13 <koen> all code from portage has been removed
Nov 28 21:10:26 <koen> which is a important distinction
Nov 28 21:10:47 <timtimred> sounds like its more nifty than buildroot...
Nov 28 21:10:55 <koen> there's also the difference between imperative and declarative syntaxes
Nov 28 21:11:12 <hrw|tv> timtimred: buildroot...
Nov 28 21:11:30 <hrw|tv> timtimred: OE was created because buildroot was not elastic and lacked features
Nov 28 21:11:31 <noidd> understood
Nov 28 21:11:38 <xorAxAx> buildrot :D
Nov 28 21:11:53 <noidd> I really liked being able to used the same .config system as the kernel
Nov 28 21:12:01 <noidd> I don't know if its still in the project
Nov 28 21:12:11 <noidd> not that it really matters either way since they're both a means to an end
Nov 28 21:12:17 <noidd> and a convenience for devs
Nov 28 21:12:38 <timtimred> right. i knew it existed but didnt bother looking at it.
Nov 28 21:13:09 <noidd> I have some catching up to do.
Nov 28 21:13:39 <noidd> hmm, monotone - looking at that VCS
Nov 28 21:14:19 <timtimred> yeah you can use .config
Nov 28 21:14:36 <timtimred> still
Nov 28 21:15:02 <noidd> ah, it uses sha instead of version numbering
Nov 28 21:16:00 <noidd> I'm guessing it's comparable to bitkeeper in distributed function
Nov 28 21:16:01 <timtimred> anyhoo, i was importing openlink (linkstation) linux into buildroot since it needs maintaining better, i guess i did 25% of the work or so, would i save time if i was to move over to OE possibly
Nov 28 21:16:28 <koen> buffalo linkstation?
Nov 28 21:16:31 <timtimred> yeah
Nov 28 21:17:20 <koen> is that arm or powerpc?
Nov 28 21:17:34 <timtimred> ppc603e !
Nov 28 21:18:07 <koen> you just need a kernel and rudimentary info on the machine
Nov 28 21:18:07 <timtimred> also there is a MIPSel model (but mines ppc)
Nov 28 21:18:35 <timtimred> there is some other stuff that i'd need to add in
Nov 28 21:18:38 <koen> http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/conf/machine/efika.conf
Nov 28 21:19:00 <timtimred> from a standard vanilla distro
Nov 28 21:19:15 <timtimred> the default kernel is in flash also
Nov 28 21:20:29 <timtimred> cool, i'll investigate that def.
Nov 28 21:31:28 <rob_w> ~hail oe 
Nov 28 22:48:21 <webar7> is google going to buy openmoko ?
Nov 28 22:48:55 <aevin> webar7: who says/indicates that?
Nov 28 22:49:30 <xorAxAx> analysts, presumely
Nov 28 22:49:49 <webar7> I described openmoko to a colleague and they said "is that that open phone thing google is gonna buy?"
Nov 28 22:49:57 <xorAxAx> hehe
Nov 28 22:50:15 <webar7> they probably got it mixed up with google's jingle and telepathy stuff
Nov 28 22:50:58 <webar7> which is just a project they support to voip/voice enable xmpp/jabber and gtalk on more platforms etc etc
Nov 28 22:51:31 <aevin> okay. hm..
Nov 28 22:52:02 <webar7> along with linuxbios.org and a few "hardwar-ish" things ... :-D
Nov 28 22:52:25 <webar7> of course google is in the top 10 pc/server manufacturers so ... hmm
Nov 28 22:52:33 <xorAxAx> umm, what?
Nov 28 22:52:44 <webar7> for internal consumption only so maybe it doesn't count :-D
Nov 28 22:52:53 <xorAxAx> ah, right :)
Nov 28 22:53:09 <webar7> they have 100's of 1000's of servers (a million?)
Nov 28 22:53:35 <webar7> they don't install ubuntu from CD :-D
Nov 28 22:54:40 <xorAxAx> google has 450000 servers
Nov 28 22:54:42 <webar7> does openmoko hardware platform have plans to specify any wifi support in a future version?
Nov 28 22:54:46 <xorAxAx> according to wp
Nov 28 22:54:52 <webar7> ah
Nov 28 22:54:59 <webar7> that's lots :)
Nov 28 22:56:00 <stefan_schmidt> webar7: As soon as they find a vendor which allows to open source the drivers wlan will go in.
Nov 28 22:57:34 <xorAxAx> HP remains the server shipment leader (541,000 units), followed by Dell (460,000 units), IBM (333,000 units), Sun (83,000 units) and Fujitsu (65,000 units).
Nov 28 22:57:43 <webar7> ahh cool I thought it was a battery life constraint or something
Nov 28 22:58:02 <xorAxAx> 2006.Q3
Nov 28 22:58:10 <xorAxAx> yeah, top ten is reasonable
Nov 28 22:58:12 <webar7> xorAxAx, I'd still like a sun box if I had my choice :-D
Nov 28 22:59:10 <aevin> any idea of what the battery capacity will be like ?
Nov 28 22:59:27 <aevin> webar7: a purple one?
Nov 28 22:59:45 <webar7> yeah ... mmmm 
Nov 28 23:00:32 <webar7> stefan_schmidt, one of the really great BSD developers of all time Sam Leffler <sam@errno.com>  does a lot of wireless work now.  Some super good BSD wireless drivers out there these days thanks to him
Nov 28 23:01:59 <webar7> saw one of his presentations at bsdcan http://www.bsdcan.org/2005/papers/FreeBSDWirelessNetwokringSupport.pdf
Nov 28 23:04:00 <webar7> so does embedded linux in the FIC Neo1973 need a "BIOS" ?
Nov 28 23:04:16 <webar7> how does it "boot"?  
Nov 28 23:04:27 <xorAxAx> yeah, whats the boot loader
Nov 28 23:04:45 <webar7> my current phone uses symbian and I swear the friggin thing boots slower than my server :-D
Nov 28 23:06:20 <webar7> my nokia linux thingie (770) boots faster but it is not "embedded" perse - it's ARM linux
Nov 28 23:07:42 <webar7> just wondering cause linuxbios.org is getting a great big test platform for QA ... thanks to google :-)
Nov 28 23:08:40 <webar7> and it'll handle many boot payloads ... grub, openfirmware, etherboot, plan9 !!! :-D haha and the linux kernel
Nov 28 23:09:10 <stefan_schmidt> uboot is bootloader
Nov 28 23:09:58 <webar7> hmm sounds familiar
Nov 28 23:13:04 <webar7> "u" as in "micro" ?
Nov 28 23:15:05 <stefan_schmidt> u as universal
Nov 28 23:15:12 <stefan_schmidt> http://sourceforge.net/projects/u-boot
Nov 29 01:46:26 <AAA> webar7  how is google responsible for linuxbios.org testing?
Nov 29 01:48:39 <AAA> and how in the world do you know how many servers google has xorAxAx 
Nov 29 01:56:27 <AAA> well, regardless the project is very exciting
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Nov 29 02:59:58 2006