**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 30 02:59:57 2006 Nov 30 02:59:58 so for piping the gprs connection to another device through BT I think it wont be the bottleneck. Nov 30 03:00:21 what is bandwidth on BT? Nov 30 03:00:29 1Mbps Nov 30 03:00:47 i got 5 running up in here but no one would notice anyway Nov 30 03:00:49 as far as I can tell anyway Nov 30 03:01:06 5Mbps? Nov 30 03:01:12 yup Nov 30 03:01:22 WoW.. what version of BT? Nov 30 03:01:48 I am guessing it will also depend on the implementation of BT Nov 30 03:01:55 5 on incoming pipe that will be scaled to 1 over BT if you are correct Nov 30 03:02:18 ahh.. you mean 5Mbps on your incomming pipe.. hehe yeah. Nov 30 03:03:38 It could be slower.. some posts I read just a bit ago said anywhere from 40kbps to 700kbps too. Nov 30 03:04:30 yeah i used to set up some BT printers and never had a problem spooling some pretty big docs to them so i dont think it will be an issue Nov 30 03:05:13 just browsing some pages, hopefully doing updates, controlling my xbox - piddly junk - gps receiver connection who knows Nov 30 03:05:30 hehe. Nov 30 03:05:51 there is tremendous potential in this device and all of its soon to be created siblings. Nov 30 03:06:51 yeah im so stoked! wanna see if i can program some junk for it too - usually stuck programming in VB and delphi most of the time though - but a migration away from that stuff will be nice Nov 30 03:08:09 or Mono... vb.net or C# would be familiar ground for you. Nov 30 03:08:09 and the "interface" is gtk. Nov 30 03:08:09 yeah i saw that - ah i just wanna play! Nov 30 03:08:24 you, me and everyone on this list. Eager as a five year old waiting for santa. Nov 30 03:08:37 haha true that Nov 30 03:09:32 i gotta mess with the stereo in my truck and see if i can wire in an audio jack connector for some mp3 tunage as well Nov 30 03:09:44 lol Nov 30 03:10:06 haha they put an aux button on there - someones gotta use it right Nov 30 03:11:08 was gonna build a truckputer with a 7" touch screen, then i was like well they have pdas with gps nowadays, and then i saw this and fell in love with the whole idea - as the usual linux user would i suppose Nov 30 03:11:55 I have been waiting for the ROAD "Handy PC" but this has much more potential in the long run. Nov 30 03:12:38 Hi guys Nov 30 03:12:48 hello Nov 30 03:12:53 Any one know when I can get hardware?! Nov 30 03:12:54 howdy Nov 30 03:13:05 same time we can :( Nov 30 03:13:16 most likely its still January. Nov 30 03:13:23 at the earliest. Nov 30 03:13:41 I need a phone Nov 30 03:13:51 I am waiting it out ! Nov 30 03:14:04 I also have time to do some dev now Nov 30 03:14:13 Is there a SDK around? Nov 30 03:14:50 from what I have heard.. if you code in C and use GTK+ it will compile fine for the device.. other than that.. not that I know of. Nov 30 03:15:19 Oh ok Nov 30 03:15:20 or a scripting language of your choice would work.. but I am sure thats not what you meant. ;-) Nov 30 03:15:31 lol no no Nov 30 03:15:41 Most of it has not been released yet. but soon. Nov 30 03:15:51 Any idears on what people would be looking for as apps? Nov 30 03:16:00 gps! Nov 30 03:16:11 ipod software Nov 30 03:16:14 junk like that Nov 30 03:16:21 Lots of them.. troll through the mailing list archives. plenty of brainstorming going on there. Nov 30 03:18:11 What would be the killer app? Nov 30 03:18:29 lol.. I don't know if this platform has one. Nov 30 03:18:35 I'll recompile VNC for it Nov 30 03:19:17 Does it have a usb host? Nov 30 03:19:34 defining the killer app would somehow need a boundary around what it is capable of doing. Without knowing what the end hardware will consist of or what performance the platform will be able to provide... /shrug Nov 30 03:19:35 yes Nov 30 03:19:44 its OTG. Nov 30 03:19:55 but unpowered.... Nov 30 03:20:14 Could maybe stick a WiFi on there then? Nov 30 03:20:35 I think Internet Radio app would be nice Nov 30 03:20:44 you need a powered hub or a power injector for the usb, but I do not think there is any reason it wont work. Nov 30 03:20:54 Maybe I'll email www.di.fm Nov 30 03:21:21 Choke and a cap maybe? Nov 30 03:21:29 hehe Nov 30 03:21:38 I could deal with that hardware I'm sure ;) Nov 30 03:22:00 Kernel drivers maybe abit hard but looks like it has to be done Nov 30 03:22:10 basically it just cant source the power. Other than that it will perform the features. Nov 30 03:22:26 I will have to make a site for people to structure there projects on for this phone Nov 30 03:22:29 or rather it should be able to perform them. Nov 30 03:22:48 9v pp3 battery Nov 30 03:23:29 little switch mode or something, it can be done Nov 30 03:23:45 software is the problem, device drivers Nov 30 03:24:00 Prism chip sets are great Nov 30 03:24:15 Must have a hack with there Linux drivers Nov 30 03:24:43 It should be possible to build something like a docking station.. with a battery powered hub for the USB stuff. Make it the same shape as the phone and it will add thickness but not be in the way too much maybe... Nov 30 03:25:38 think id just stick to the BT Nov 30 03:25:38 just stick it on and the you could have all of the abilities of your phone available... there are a ton of mini usb hubs out there. Nov 30 03:25:52 IF it gets BT. Nov 30 03:25:57 we dont know yet. Nov 30 03:26:01 true Nov 30 03:27:16 I am just thinking of things people might want.. USB Host is a popular thing so far... why limit it to one device? I know people were talking about this earlier. Nov 30 03:29:28 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_PWraM9IzQ&mode=related&search= I think this is quite fun Nov 30 03:29:31 *funny Nov 30 03:30:55 http://youtube.com/watch?v=sX7BUNfJsBU Nov 30 03:32:36 OMG ! Nov 30 03:32:38 Ah hahaha Nov 30 03:32:40 Thanks Nov 30 03:33:44 tongue twisters are fun arent they? Nov 30 03:34:18 lol ! Nov 30 03:37:22 So how am I going to buy this phone? Nov 30 03:37:50 I am moving to Australia, so on the way would be cheaper I guess? Nov 30 03:38:02 money i would presume - jobby job like everyone else ;) Nov 30 03:38:14 unless you know something i dont?? Nov 30 03:38:26 Yes Nov 30 03:38:55 Ask your mum :D Nov 30 03:38:59 lol joking... Nov 30 03:39:09 she lives across town and i make more than her Nov 30 03:39:19 Oh Nov 30 03:39:26 My one is mad Nov 30 03:39:30 OK Nov 30 03:39:49 mad eh? Nov 30 03:40:01 I hope this is not going to be another one of the Linux devices that you can't get Nov 30 03:40:11 mad=mad, as in mad Nov 30 03:40:13 haha that would SUCK Nov 30 03:42:23 They need to keep updating there site with more info Nov 30 03:42:43 Like dates and day-day status Nov 30 03:46:47 yeah a date and a pre order or something would be cool Nov 30 03:46:58 better not be no game console shortage :) Nov 30 03:48:26 They should get it out by xmas Nov 30 03:59:25 XMMS that's what I need to port to this Nov 30 03:59:27 ;) Nov 30 04:00:42 amarok! Nov 30 04:06:54 lol on a phone Nov 30 04:08:02 Does it use ALSA ? Nov 30 04:12:00 pretty sure it can use whatever Nov 30 04:12:37 OSSS maybe Nov 30 04:12:42 *OSS Nov 30 04:12:57 Why is everyone Gstreamer mad? Nov 30 04:13:15 its crap and beta why when you have xine as a backend? Nov 30 04:13:29 remaintain xine Nov 30 04:16:52 people should mix VLC and Xine's code base and make a better backend and stick with it Nov 30 04:23:45 ?? help Nov 30 04:23:46 help[1]: Available help topics: Nov 30 04:23:47 help[2]: ?? help-google Nov 30 04:23:48 help[3]: ?? help-database Nov 30 04:23:50 help[4]: ?? help-exchange (currency converter) Nov 30 04:25:51 ~botsnack Nov 30 04:26:12 he ain't finished yet :\ Nov 30 05:37:18 Guys if anyone is awake Nov 30 05:37:31 https://gumstix.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=172 look at this Nov 30 05:37:52 " Utilizing the MarvellĀ® 88W8385 module and an open source driver available under GPL," Nov 30 05:38:09 Can moko use that chipset in there phone then? Nov 30 05:38:31 Hardware is small and there and the driver has been done for them ! Nov 30 05:41:08 A quick google gave me this Nov 30 05:41:08 http://www.marvell.com/products/wireless/embedded.jsp Nov 30 08:57:37 oh wow, this is impressive Nov 30 08:57:45 i cant believe how many people there are in here Nov 30 10:58:07 hrw|work are you around? Nov 30 12:19:22 <[g2]> anyone else tried out OpreaMini 3.0 on their phone ? (A780 here) Nov 30 14:45:56 In response the the comment by edwardocallaghan.. The marvell people are currenly reviewing the license with which they released that code to gumstix.. its not opened yet last I heard. They had to yank it out of their release till this was resolved. So still no open wifi driver. Nov 30 14:46:21 I am not a gumstix staff.. but thats what was said on their mailing list. Nov 30 14:46:27 just fyi. Nov 30 14:47:07 cephdon: we (I and few other devels) started work on gpl version of that driver Nov 30 14:47:26 http://www.hrw.one.pl/2006/11/25/project-for-writing-gpl-driver-for-8385-marvell-wifi-chipset/ Nov 30 14:47:33 how far did it get? Nov 30 14:48:11 the current thought it that it might get released from marvell by the end of the year (thats a guess). Nov 30 14:48:18 currently we started writing pcmcia glue for it Nov 30 14:48:39 driver for 8388 (usb one used in OLPC) is gpl. we base on it Nov 30 14:48:48 ahh cool. Nov 30 14:49:00 wifi part is nearly same, pcmcia glue needs to be written Nov 30 14:51:02 marvell in learning that open source is good shocker :) Nov 30 14:51:19 hehe Nov 30 15:58:17 * koen reads http://hardware.silicon.com/pdas/0,39024643,39164424,00.htm Nov 30 18:34:04 are there specs out for the 8385? Nov 30 18:34:13 can you design against it? Nov 30 18:35:39 8385? Nov 30 18:36:05 oh sorry, the potentially open marvel wifi chip Nov 30 18:36:20 cephdon was talking about it earlier Nov 30 18:43:13 if you could get somewhat working drivers til january, then we could probably convince sean to get wifi into v2 right? Nov 30 18:44:25 and redistributable firmware Nov 30 18:45:41 so the firmware does need to be transferred to the chip upon boot? Nov 30 18:46:07 that's the case with most of the chips Nov 30 18:46:15 well there are some which have it integrated Nov 30 18:46:20 hey greentux Nov 30 18:46:28 and i thought i read about one that actually is a complete soc Nov 30 18:46:33 including its own arm core Nov 30 18:46:40 thats the olpc one Nov 30 18:46:40 the connexant one? Nov 30 18:46:51 most chips are arm SoC nowadays Nov 30 18:46:54 not sure Nov 30 18:47:01 thought it was broadcom but maybe i'm wrong Nov 30 18:47:08 I bet the GSM chip is an arm7 soc Nov 30 18:47:15 and the bluetooth chip as well Nov 30 18:47:57 you can find all these peripheral chips with arm cores, but its more exceptional than standardized Nov 30 18:48:29 designing an ASIC for stuff like that isn't worth it anymore Nov 30 18:48:55 especially with the mess of 802.11[a-z] Nov 30 18:49:10 the marvell 8385 is one of three integration targets for the new devicescape wireless stack Nov 30 18:49:13 thats mildly interesting Nov 30 18:49:19 along with an atheros and a brcm Nov 30 18:51:36 devicescape is a "competitor" to the ieee80211 wifi stack that dominates linux today Nov 30 18:51:59 more relevantly though, there dont seem to be readily available specs Nov 30 18:52:10 i dont see how anyone could begin to integrate the extra silicon Nov 30 18:55:44 mhh what does it provide over the current stack? Nov 30 18:56:00 wifi? Nov 30 18:56:15 i thought the current stack provided wifi already Nov 30 18:56:23 at least my centrino works just fine Nov 30 18:56:32 oh devicescape Nov 30 18:56:34 ieee80211 is an effort to get all wifi drivers to use a common base Nov 30 18:56:47 I guess devicescape has similar aims Nov 30 18:57:10 linux wifi drivers are extremely sensitive to NIH Nov 30 18:57:17 it integrates a lot of the conceptualities in hostapd Nov 30 18:57:59 so i could do hostap with non prism cards? Nov 30 18:58:30 uh, non prisms can do hostapd Nov 30 18:58:35 my atheros runs it quite well Nov 30 18:58:49 mhh i thought i read prism only Nov 30 18:58:55 there's hardware limitations to a lot of chipsets taht will never be circumvented Nov 30 18:59:15 i dont care too much Nov 30 18:59:24 i think devicescapes advanced data path simply intends to make it more standardized and easier to implement Nov 30 18:59:25 i dont plan on turning my notebook in an AP really ;) Nov 30 18:59:42 buz: There is also a driver for prsim cards which is called hostap Nov 30 18:59:58 HostAPD (daemon) can be used with more chipset Nov 30 19:00:01 ah Nov 30 19:00:05 maybe that got me confused then Nov 30 19:00:11 Everyone which supports master mode Nov 30 19:00:41 is the ipw2200 available by itself? i.e. not on minipci? Nov 30 19:01:29 if you can convince intel, sure Nov 30 19:01:37 so they only sell it as minipci? Nov 30 19:01:50 or integrated, yes Nov 30 19:01:51 or even bundled with a cpu Nov 30 19:02:05 drivers for it dont seem so bad Nov 30 19:02:44 the marvell is interesting because its open source Nov 30 19:02:55 buz: Only mini pci and drivers are good Nov 30 19:03:03 Latriva drivers or whatever their called are working gpl drivers for marvell Nov 30 19:03:20 marvell needs binary firmware? Nov 30 19:03:54 uhh i need to go pull the git tree and find out Nov 30 19:04:35 i ahvent heard anyone else claim to have GPL drivers before Nov 30 19:04:51 everything else definately uses binaries Nov 30 19:06:00 truthfully, i'd be delighted to see even a 802.15.4 transciever on the Neo1973 Nov 30 19:06:22 just something to talk with other local devices Nov 30 19:06:45 high bandwidth high falutinosity 802.11 aside Nov 30 19:07:04 i'd vastly prefer wifi to bt Nov 30 19:08:02 bt is damn near useless to get online away from home Nov 30 19:10:48 i was trying to discuss this with a coworker yesterday Nov 30 19:11:09 bt is only in part a wifi spec, its real purpose is a device spec Nov 30 19:11:20 heres a spec for your headset, here's a spec for your phone, here's a spec for.... Nov 30 19:11:38 as a general purpose maelleable wifi spec, well, not so much Nov 30 19:12:02 and that spec, worthless as it may be, still costs like $20,000, at least 3-4 years ago when i tried to get a copy Nov 30 19:12:14 not very open Nov 30 19:13:41 ouch Nov 30 19:14:24 i'm extremely frustrated that there's no technical content on the devicescape stack on the net Nov 30 19:14:34 its just two press releases, repeated ad noseum across google Nov 30 19:16:03 myren: It's all in the source code and netdev kernel list. :) Nov 30 19:16:22 ah, i'll go archive digging on netdev Nov 30 19:16:37 i wasnt seeing much via kerneltrap Nov 30 19:16:50 * stefan_schmidt hands over micky|stomachFlu a bottle of health. Nov 30 19:17:36 oohhhh, that sucks. Nov 30 19:20:04 grrrrr Nov 30 19:20:25 why is 23c3 at the same time as my birthday? Nov 30 19:21:36 where is 23c3 this year? Nov 30 19:21:47 i need to move someplace that has conferences Nov 30 19:21:51 its alway in berlin Nov 30 19:21:53 alway Nov 30 19:21:54 s Nov 30 19:21:59 * myren nods Nov 30 19:22:01 koen: How many birthdays you already had? 25? 26? More then enough. ;) Nov 30 19:24:09 stefan_schmidt: 23 Nov 30 19:24:56 koen: ah, you started one year before congress. ;) Nov 30 19:37:08 just like me Nov 30 19:37:15 83 was a good year :) Nov 30 19:37:33 '82 was a lot better :) Nov 30 19:37:55 mhh 06-23 gives 83 in my book Nov 30 19:38:25 oh wait Nov 30 19:38:36 nevermind Nov 30 19:38:48 23c3 is in 06 ;) Nov 30 19:39:13 :) Nov 30 19:39:22 then again the 80s in general were a rather horrible decade Nov 30 19:39:27 just look at the fashion and hairstyle Nov 30 19:39:42 they had the a-team, mcguyver and miami vice Nov 30 19:39:51 yeah i would count that against em Nov 30 19:42:20 i really wish i knew what non us culture was doing in the 80's Nov 30 19:43:01 being at the wrong end of the cold war presumably Nov 30 19:43:01 the entire world couldnt have been wearing 12 watches & had huge hair Nov 30 19:43:55 dont forget excessively baggy trousers Nov 30 19:44:22 oh wait, that was later Nov 30 19:44:25 :D Nov 30 19:44:50 um, back to front dungarees? Nov 30 19:46:26 those oversized trousers were the 90s Nov 30 19:46:31 awful stuff really Nov 30 19:48:12 stop! Nov 30 19:48:16 hammer time :) Nov 30 19:49:47 and now koen reminds us of PVC baggy trousers Nov 30 19:49:49 ;) Nov 30 19:49:59 from bad to worse really Nov 30 19:50:25 on the plus side, the 90s brought us the wb Nov 30 19:50:27 web Nov 30 19:56:10 i hate the web Nov 30 19:56:36 we would have some kind of authentic distributed object system in place now if it wasnt for the web Nov 30 19:56:53 but we got to ignore all the hard problems and build cheap pos php+mysql web pages instead Nov 30 19:57:17 propogating this fascist consumeristic caltrap instead Nov 30 19:57:22 the end. Nov 30 19:59:11 *cough* java *cough* Nov 30 19:59:40 python! Nov 30 19:59:45 its not the programming languages Nov 30 19:59:51 its that the entire architecture is still centralized Nov 30 20:00:08 its all big servers crunching data and tossing out web pages Nov 30 20:00:21 which is a sinfully centralized crime against humanity Nov 30 22:04:02 is there a declared plan for when dev units are going to be fabbed? Nov 30 22:04:43 no Nov 30 22:05:18 * myren nods Nov 30 22:06:06 i have a computer engineering degree & skills with peripherial integration. i'm not sure if that hardware side of things is open or not, but i'd be glad to volunteer. Nov 30 22:07:28 sorry, but you have to wait a bit more. Nov 30 22:08:06 You will hear it, once the first phones will be shipped. :) Nov 30 22:08:06 will openmoko be for sale starting 2007? Nov 30 22:08:35 warex: that is the plan ;) Nov 30 22:10:25 any link to check the specs? kind of? Nov 30 22:10:52 warex: openmoko.com press release Nov 30 22:20:26 it says nothing about pricing, what about that? Nov 30 22:20:42 350$ Nov 30 22:20:56 US? EU? Nov 30 22:21:04 $ == USD Nov 30 22:21:13 that's a fair price Nov 30 22:21:20 ~change 350 USD to EUR Nov 30 22:21:44 hmm, where is our bot? Nov 30 22:21:58 £194 GBP ish Nov 30 22:22:13 if that helps :D Nov 30 22:22:36 sorry my head doesnt do floating point this late Nov 30 22:23:27 !exchange 192 GBP USD Nov 30 22:23:29 (192) British Pound equals 377.5106 U.S. Dollar as of Nov 30. Nov 30 22:24:01 not including import tax and shipping i guess. Nov 30 22:24:10 !exchange 200 EUR RUR Nov 30 22:24:32 ah, we have cdbot2 not purl. :) Nov 30 22:25:03 cdbot2: botcookie Nov 30 22:25:18 !botsnack Nov 30 22:25:19 * cdbot2 aw, gee, CoreDump|home Nov 30 22:25:27 he is still learning ;) Nov 30 22:25:32 i'm trying to hack an EBX computer as a car stereo, but EBX computers are not really cheap options. Mayabe openmoko will do the work to play mp3. Nov 30 22:25:32 heh Nov 30 22:27:03 wword Nov 30 22:27:09 i love me the bots Nov 30 22:27:43 wb koen Nov 30 22:28:53 hey stefan_schmidt Dec 01 00:27:53 night all Dec 01 00:38:08 night Dec 01 02:44:27 Hey myren, I think thats an interesting comment about an "authentic distributed object system". Just out of curiousity.. what do you mean by that? Is it similar to the various RMI type schemes or something more akin to a replacement for the web but using objects? Dec 01 02:46:32 Technically, its not impossible to build it now.. any superior and open technology would be adopted by the majority of geeks in no time and from there it would spread in some way similar to the web (my opinion)... the question is really how to build the superior and open technology...then how to get it standardized.... Dec 01 02:46:49 Web 2.0 is an attempt at just that.. right? Dec 01 02:47:07 the symantic web or whatever nickname its going by.. Dec 01 02:47:59 so maybe your vision just lacks you as a spokes person to get it jumpstarted. ;-) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Dec 01 02:59:58 2006