**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Dec 02 02:59:57 2006
Dec 02 05:02:48 <mindCrime_> so will the openmoko phone be "open" enough in terms of what the end-user can control, to allow a user to prevent nefariousness like this:
Dec 02 05:02:49 <mindCrime_> http://tinyurl.com/y4sahs
Dec 02 05:03:25 <mindCrime_> eg, will I be able to configure my phone so that my carrier *can't* activate the microphone without my explicit permission / knowledge...
Dec 02 05:03:58 <cephdon> I am not sure how they would be able to do that on a linux system without you telling them to do it..
Dec 02 05:04:21 <cephdon> I guess it will depend on how the system is implemented....
Dec 02 05:04:23 <mindCrime_> well, I ask becuase I don't know what (if any) software will be on the openmoko that isn't purely open-source
Dec 02 05:04:49 <cephdon> so far as I know.. the GPS module firmware and the GSM firmware.
Dec 02 05:04:51 <mindCrime_> I suspect there will be some, there usually is on any kind of wireless device...  maybe this time is different?
Dec 02 05:05:07 <cephdon> but the GSM firmware will probably be just on the GSM module, isolated as it were.
Dec 02 05:05:13 <mindCrime_> ok, cool
Dec 02 05:05:43 <mindCrime_> if  hardware like the microphone will not be directly controlled by any proprietary code, that is a Good Thing, IMO. :-)
Dec 02 05:05:55 <cephdon> I say I suspect.. because i am guessing.  ;-)
Dec 02 05:06:13 <mindCrime_> I'm not a member of the mafia or anything, but I don't much like the idea of being spied on, by the government or anybody else. :-)
Dec 02 05:06:24 <mindCrime_> cephdon: understood.
Dec 02 05:06:31 <mindCrime_> let's hope it turns out that way
Dec 02 05:06:32 <cephdon> well, the inputs on the GSM module might be.. but hopefully they will be routing through the processor core and controlled by the linux OS.
Dec 02 05:07:11 <cephdon> i.e.  Mic---> CPU----> GSM---->network
Dec 02 05:08:04 <cephdon> and then network--->GSM---->CPU----> speaker
Dec 02 05:08:04 <cephdon> that would give full control to the linux OS.
Dec 02 05:08:04 <mindCrime_> yeah, that makes sense.  As long as a command coming from the network -> mic has to be allowed by something in the linux os, that would be nice
Dec 02 05:08:40 <mindCrime_> man, I can't wait for these things to come out.  I'm so looking forward to this phone.
Dec 02 05:08:43 <cephdon> I guess we will see /shrug
Dec 02 05:08:51 <cephdon> me too.
Dec 02 05:09:03 <cephdon> I am so like a 5 yr old waiting for santa.
Dec 02 05:09:08 <mindCrime_> yeah, same here
Dec 02 05:09:37 <cephdon> I think maybe I will celebrate christmas on the day the openmoko comes out.  ;-)
Dec 02 05:09:47 <mindCrime_> :-)
Dec 02 05:44:49 <darmou> It's a shame the phone does not have a keyboard:(
Dec 02 05:46:58 <cephdon> ahh... but nothing is impossible..
Dec 02 05:47:11 <cephdon> the great thing about technology is that its always changing.
Dec 02 05:47:36 <cephdon> what if someone built a USB based sled with a keyboard on it..
Dec 02 05:47:45 <cephdon> something you could slide up and use?  hmmmmm....
Dec 02 05:49:16 <darmou> Well have a look at http://road-gmbh.de/en/  the hardware looks great
Dec 02 05:49:30 <darmou> however I prefer OpenMoko's development enviroment
Dec 02 05:49:42 <darmou> they are using qtopia
Dec 02 05:50:08 <cephdon> Yeah.. if and when they actually get the phone out the door.
Dec 02 05:50:25 <cephdon> but basically thats a dupe on the nokia 9210, 9300 and 9500 line.
Dec 02 05:50:31 <cephdon> its almost identical.
Dec 02 05:50:39 <cephdon> just nokia wasn't linux.
Dec 02 05:52:47 <darmou> Well that's the key is't it, with linux the sky is the limit when it comes to apps. For example near my wif fi I would love the phone to dial using VOIP
Dec 02 05:53:02 <darmou> and when not near a hotspot, then just go back to GSM
Dec 02 05:53:35 <darmou> Also being able to write apps and deploy them to my phone would be really cool or to port existing linux apps
Dec 02 05:54:32 <darmou> Damn shame my old phone got coke spilt on it and I had to replace it so I went with a Sony Walkman 850i
Dec 02 05:55:54 <cephdon> well, linux doesn't do any good if the phone has limitations which you cant overcome by programming.
Dec 02 05:56:11 <cephdon> Other than that apps are always good  =)
Dec 02 06:01:54 <darmou> cephdon or that the functionality is there but you have to go to great lengths to reverse engineer it.  That's why I thought OpenMoko is such a great idea with the specs being open
Dec 02 06:02:13 <cephdon> totally.
Dec 02 06:02:25 <cephdon> plus it saved me from building it myself 
Dec 02 06:02:56 <cephdon> i was working on basically the exact same thing.. (though the vga screen totally blew my screens away)
Dec 02 06:03:23 <cephdon> but with Edge and BT and GPS and accelerometer (sp?) and Magnetic compass.
Dec 02 06:04:03 <cephdon> I got as far as picking out the Edge, GPS and CPU modules and purchasing the LCDs and accelerometer and compass modules.
Dec 02 06:04:35 <darmou> do you have 3g where you are?
Dec 02 06:04:35 <cephdon> then I saw this and decided to focus here.  ;-)
Dec 02 06:04:59 <cephdon> yeah but depending on the carrier its not too much faster than GPRS.. maybe 2 to 3 times.
Dec 02 06:05:07 <cephdon> if you get the full bandwidth.
Dec 02 06:05:21 <cephdon> er.. full bandwidth allowed.
Dec 02 06:05:48 <cephdon> its funny to me to see the people here and their ideas on what the phone should do.
Dec 02 06:05:51 <darmou> Telstra has this thing called next g which is supposed to be faster again but not sure what the specs are
Dec 02 06:06:10 <cephdon> some of them I was thinking of but many i didnt.
Dec 02 06:06:11 <cephdon> ahh.
Dec 02 06:07:55 <cephdon> now I wait just like all the others... for the holy grail to appear.
Dec 02 06:07:56 <cephdon> lol
Dec 02 06:08:01 <cephdon> i just hope it doesn't turn into the holy hand grenade of antioch (sp?)
Dec 02 06:08:16 <cephdon> .../joking
Dec 02 06:12:24 <darmou> "NextG is 3.5g it is telstras HSDPA (High Speed downlink Packet access) network which offers speeds sometimes faster than broadband such as 1.8mbps while 3g is only uses UMTS which can only go at 384mbps"
Dec 02 06:13:23 <darmou> found that on whirlpool broadband internet site.  I assume that means higher quality streaming video, interesting
Dec 02 06:13:37 <cephdon> AHHH  lol only go to 384mps... hahaha
Dec 02 06:13:53 <cephdon> err mbps
Dec 02 06:14:09 <cephdon> I would love 1.8mbps 384 is a dream.
Dec 02 06:14:18 <cephdon> I dont even get that with cable internet.
Dec 02 06:16:49 <darmou> When I go onto ADSL2+ next year i should be able to get close to 24000 kbps
Dec 02 06:16:57 <darmou> which is very good
Dec 02 06:17:32 <darmou> I'm currenly on ADSL1 1500 kbps
Dec 02 06:19:12 <cephdon> so 1.5 to 1.4 mbps?
Dec 02 06:19:13 <darmou> What frequencies does the phone cover Next G is 850/2100 mhz, 2100 mhz is used for 3g
Dec 02 06:19:18 <cephdon> er.. 2.4mbps
Dec 02 06:23:21 <darmou> it's 1.5Mbps ADSL2+ is 24M5Mbps
Dec 02 06:23:47 <darmou> 24Mbps even
Dec 02 06:24:09 <cephdon> oh.. right, missed a zero.
Dec 02 06:24:15 <cephdon> lol
Dec 02 16:59:29 <vlg> anybody knows more about OpenMoko in terms of SDK?
Dec 02 17:00:09 <[g2]> vlg more than what ?
Dec 02 17:01:32 <vlg> g2: never mind - I just read the press release pdf - that answers my questions.
Dec 02 17:02:07 <[g2]> vlg are you an OE user ?
Dec 02 17:02:45 <vlg> g2: I'm porting my flashcard app to OE (granule.sf.net) to run on my Zaurus 5500.
Dec 02 17:04:48 <[g2]> vlg cool
Dec 02 20:10:19 <TimRiker> are there phones available yet?
Dec 02 20:14:35 <hrw|tv> 2no
Dec 02 20:14:56 <cephdon> ... its not quite January yet.  ;-)
Dec 02 20:15:41 <mikesh> how much is chance, it will be available in january?
Dec 02 20:16:18 <cephdon> I have no idea.. I am just parroting what we have all been told up to this point.
Dec 02 20:17:49 <mikesh> ok
Dec 02 20:28:27 <TimRiker> so what are folks hacking on at this point?
Dec 02 20:29:18 <Laibsch> TimRiker: OE has been around for a long time.  There are other devices supported at this point.  The community is not just for openmoko.
Dec 02 20:29:23 <TimRiker> is the software available anywhere? what gui libs are they using?
Dec 02 20:29:35 <Laibsch> TimRiker: Only the stuff in OE.
Dec 02 20:29:36 <hrw|tv> TimRiker: gtk
Dec 02 20:29:50 <Laibsch> They will release their stuff in January to OE, they say.
Dec 02 20:29:54 <TimRiker> Laibsch: OE has qt in it too, no?
Dec 02 20:30:11 <Laibsch> Yes, but openmoko will be gtk/GPE as hrw|tv said
Dec 02 20:30:22 * TimRiker nods
Dec 02 20:30:30 <Laibsch> That is why I will have to come up with Japanese input for GPE, for example.
Dec 02 20:31:22 <TimRiker> :)
Dec 02 20:31:26 <hrw|tv> cu
Dec 02 20:31:51 <marcb4242> is anything known already about the browser that will come with openmoko?
Dec 02 20:32:21 * marcb4242 still hopes for ajax and svg
Dec 02 20:33:43 <TimRiker> any other phones are supported by OE at present?
Dec 02 20:35:19 <xorAxAx> hi TimRiker 
Dec 02 20:36:02 <stefan_schmidt> Tali: 
Dec 02 20:36:17 <stefan_schmidt> ~lart tabcompletion
Dec 02 20:36:18 * apt shoves a crumpet down tabcompletion's throat, happy now?! Huh? Want some JAM with that?
Dec 02 20:36:35 <stefan_schmidt> TimRiker: HTC and OpenEZX are still WIP.
Dec 02 20:44:02 <TimRiker> stefan_schmidt: yep...
Dec 02 20:45:25 <stefan_schmidt> TimRiker: We work on the OpenEZX low level problems right now and will use openmoko as the userspace stack.
Dec 02 21:15:58 <TimRiker> stefan_schmidt: ok. I'm working with some folks that may be interested in financing some of this. I'll announce details when I'm able to.
Dec 02 21:16:59 <xorAxAx> will there be bzflag for openmoko?
Dec 02 21:18:26 <TimRiker> xorAxAx: hehe. doubt it. there's no FPU there, so OpenGL is dog slow.
Dec 02 21:18:56 <TimRiker> would be nice to have a ray-cast engine multiplayer game on there though.
Dec 02 21:19:09 <TimRiker> something that only uses ints.
Dec 02 21:19:24 <koen|train> port it to openglES :) 
Dec 02 21:19:38 <TimRiker> opengles still is float based.
Dec 02 21:19:38 <xorAxAx> if even my LJ 4 can do raytracing in 500 bytes of ps code ... :)
Dec 02 21:19:56 <xorAxAx> (needing 5 hours for a layer and one lightsource)
Dec 02 21:20:04 <TimRiker> heh
Dec 02 21:20:40 <koen|train> TimRiker: openglES also has an integer only part of its spec iirc
Dec 02 21:20:43 <TimRiker> there are some chipsets like the ti omap 24xx that include hardware accel for opengles. so it'll happen someday soon.
Dec 02 21:21:17 <TimRiker> but the HTC, ezx, and FIC devices do not have it as far as I know.
Dec 02 21:21:48 <TimRiker> koen|train: that's nothing new. opengl has an int spec too. but do you see any implementations?
Dec 02 21:22:27 <koen|train> sure, the 'vincent' ogles engine
Dec 02 21:22:44 <stefan_schmidt> TimRiker: Sounds good. Keep me informed.
Dec 02 21:24:21 <cephdon> The embedded space varies widely, ranging from 400Mhz PDAs with 64MB RAM to 50MHz mobile phones with 1 MB RAM. OpenGL ES is designed to accommodate these differences by requiring a minimum footprint with minimum data storage requirements, minimized instruction/data traffic, and is both integer and floating point friendly. For users this means smaller binaries to download that take up less storage on the device.
Dec 02 21:24:29 <cephdon> thats from the opengles site.
Dec 02 21:24:40 <cephdon> that sounds to me like its already implemented.
Dec 02 21:24:43 <cephdon>  /shrug.
Dec 02 21:25:01 <xorAxAx> implemented by the marketing dept :)
Dec 02 21:25:15 <TimRiker> xorAxAx: exactly
Dec 02 21:25:29 <cephdon> so your saying its never been tested on a PDA using only integer math?
Dec 02 21:25:54 <TimRiker> I'm saying I've never seen an integer implementation that I'd actually want to use for anything.
Dec 02 21:26:00 <cephdon> ahhh
Dec 02 21:26:03 <cephdon> ok.. 
Dec 02 21:26:21 <TimRiker> I've run bzflag on pda platforms before. but at liek 6fps with no textures, who would want it?
Dec 02 21:26:31 <TimRiker> s/liek/like/
Dec 02 21:26:31 <apt> TimRiker meant: I've run bzflag on pda platforms before. but at like 6fps with no textures, who would want it?
Dec 02 21:26:32 <xorAxAx> blind users maybe?
Dec 02 21:26:38 <cephdon> lol
Dec 02 21:27:01 <xorAxAx> hmm, no, then you would need screenreader support
Dec 02 21:27:12 <TimRiker> masochists that just like to be killed in video games?
Dec 02 21:27:34 <TimRiker> yea! I got killed again! sweet!
Dec 02 21:27:47 <cephdon> hey.. so far we dont even know if the first gen OpenMoko will be able to do video...would tht be any more intensive than a game engine like you are suggesting?
Dec 02 21:28:40 <TimRiker> no. there are a few video codecs that run ok on integer platforms. the ezx real player for an example, though there are better ones.
Dec 02 21:31:03 * TimRiker continues to whittle down the 60k messages in his spam folder
Dec 02 21:31:17 <cephdon> ouch.
Dec 02 21:31:45 <cephdon> are you doing a study on futility?
Dec 02 21:31:55 <cephdon> can you actually catch up with it?
Dec 02 21:32:42 <cephdon> and by the time you get to any messges which are not spam... are the fresh enough to be worth the trouble?
Dec 02 21:32:51 <cephdon> s/the/they/
Dec 02 21:32:51 <apt> cephdon meant: and by they time you get to any messges which are not spam... are the fresh enough to be worth the trouble?
Dec 02 21:33:01 <cephdon> lol... 
Dec 02 21:33:40 <TimRiker> there are probably less than 100 false positives in there, I'm not doing a thorough search, just a cursory look and then nuke them. nuking 1k at a time or so.
Dec 02 21:33:53 <TimRiker> I get about 900 spam msgs a day these days.
Dec 02 21:33:59 <cephdon> wow.
Dec 02 21:35:07 <TimRiker> spamassassin++
Dec 02 21:36:52 * TimRiker finds a few openezx emails in there.
Dec 02 21:37:24 <stefan_schmidt> TimRiker: We don't spam. :)
Dec 02 21:37:42 * xorAxAx enabled OCR in spamassassin yesterday
Dec 02 21:37:43 <TimRiker> hehe. the ones I found were false positives.
Dec 02 21:38:05 <TimRiker> xorAxAx: ouch. that's gotta take a chunk of cpu time.
Dec 02 21:38:30 <xorAxAx> TimRiker: it can cache the hashes and normally, spammers dont attach images
Dec 02 21:38:39 <xorAxAx> and its running only if the other rules didnt work out
Dec 02 21:40:05 <cephdon> i had no idea that spamassassin could do tht.
Dec 02 21:40:09 <cephdon> err.. that.
Dec 02 21:41:51 <xorAxAx> there are plugins
Dec 02 21:42:03 <TimRiker> many spammers attach images these days. often the message is garbled text and the image is the actual spam.
Dec 02 21:49:14 <TimRiker> poor little mail server really needs an upgrade. :(
Dec 02 22:06:19 <TimRiker> I really ought to write an mrtg script that graphs the spam I receive :)
Dec 02 22:09:13 <TimRiker> http://users.2z.net/rpuhek/scripts_public/spamd/ looksinteresting...
Dec 02 22:09:49 <element43> this may or maynot be offtopic. however, i was curious besides the overpriced greenphone what alternatives are there for open source cellphones?
Dec 02 22:10:21 <koen|train> the greenphone isn't opensource
Dec 02 22:11:14 <element43> don't you get the source when you get the sdk?
Dec 02 22:11:47 <koen|train> that doesn't make it opensource
Dec 02 22:12:40 <element43> well i don't care about philosophy, long as however the phone works I get source to work from.
Dec 02 22:13:31 <rwhitby> element43: you might be in the wrong channel then :-)
Dec 02 22:13:45 <element43> heh
Dec 02 22:14:06 <element43> i'm all for the  open source but I don't think its fair to force people to distribute it one way or another
Dec 02 22:14:23 <element43> :) not a fan of viral licences. defeats the point of sharing code.
Dec 02 22:14:43 <xorAxAx> element43: nobody claims that viral licenses are necessary for FOSS
Dec 02 22:14:49 <xorAxAx> BSD would be fine
Dec 02 22:14:54 <koen|train> or MIT
Dec 02 22:14:59 <element43> anyway, back ot my question. are there any alternatives?
Dec 02 22:15:01 <xorAxAx> but very painful for the trolls :)
Dec 02 22:15:19 * element43 just wants a cellphone he can hack on when he is bored
Dec 02 22:15:27 <xorAxAx> so they chose GPL for qt
Dec 02 22:16:15 <TimRiker> EZX phones work and are hackable. HTC phones only really work under non-free os, but are hackable.
Dec 02 22:16:43 <TimRiker> openmoko phone promises to work and be hackable in january.
Dec 02 22:16:50 <koen|train> I want to be able to get the source of stuff and be able to put in online and compile stuff against it
Dec 02 22:16:53 <element43> i don't know an insane amount about phones. this is kind of a recent intrest for me. So forgive my newbieness. but what is the difference between EZX and HTC?
Dec 02 22:17:03 * koen|train had a nice discussion about (GPL) mpeg4 codecs today
Dec 02 22:17:14 <TimRiker> koen|train: well, you can't do that with the greenphone.
Dec 02 22:18:19 <TimRiker> element43: just different vendors. EZX == motorola, HTC == offshore build with different companies reselling it.
Dec 02 22:18:47 <koen|train> TimRiker: the GP sdk doesn't even allow me to build stuff for !qtopia platforms
Dec 02 22:18:47 <element43> ahh
Dec 02 22:19:05 <koen|train> TimRiker: so I'm not allowed to use the crosscompiler to compile busybox for my nslu2
Dec 02 22:19:28 <element43> well I don't plan on buying a new phone until Feb or so. So we'll see how openmoko pans out. :) 
Dec 02 22:19:57 <TimRiker> koen|train: interesting how they believe they can restrict your use of a GPL compiler where the GPL license under which they use it forbids them from doing just that.
Dec 02 22:20:17 <koen|train> TimRiker: very funny indeed
Dec 02 22:20:29 <koen|train> hilarious even
Dec 02 22:21:03 <koen|train> or to quote Fat Tony from the simpsons: "It's funny, because eh.. it's true"
Dec 02 22:22:35 <koen|train> (apart from the fact that trolltech pulled the sdk because of other licensing issues)
Dec 02 22:22:44 <koen|train> so right now, there is no sdk for the GP
Dec 02 22:23:26 * koen|train sees his stop
Dec 02 22:26:33 <WillySilly> Hi all
Dec 02 23:09:19 <WillySilly> any eta on release on the phone?
Dec 02 23:24:45 <rwhitby> perhaps that should go in the /topic ...
Dec 02 23:25:17 <rwhitby> (January I believe)
Dec 02 23:34:47 <stefan_schmidt> WillySilly: rwhitby is right. January is still the last known date.
Dec 02 23:39:20 <WillySilly> thanks stefan_schmidt and rwhitby 
Dec 03 00:36:08 <WillySilly> stefan_schmidt: Everything for app development to be released when the phone is?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Dec 03 02:59:57 2006