**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Dec 05 02:59:57 2006
Dec 05 09:26:14 <fredl> anybody know if the FIC Neo1973 is for sale in europe already?
Dec 05 09:26:32 <mjr> no
Dec 05 09:26:51 <fredl> launch date still Jan. 2007?
Dec 05 09:26:53 <koen> well, the answer is "yes"
Dec 05 09:27:02 <mjr> Release date is January
Dec 05 09:27:13 <koen> we know that it isn't shipping
Dec 05 09:27:21 <mjr> well yes
Dec 05 09:27:24 <fredl> koen :-)
Dec 05 09:27:33 <fredl> you Dutch koen?
Dec 05 09:27:36 <koen> yep
Dec 05 09:28:03 <fredl> cool. You know if any of the large carriers in .nl will sell the Neo in their package?
Dec 05 09:28:58 <fredl> see, I have an appointment with an Orange Telecom representative since I'm looking for a mobile solution that will offer me what I need....
Dec 05 09:29:36 <fredl> what I need is a good phone obviously, Wifi and GPS aren't really optional. The Neo doesn't have Wifi, correct?
Dec 05 09:30:09 <koen> no wifi
Dec 05 09:30:44 <fredl> how involved with openmoko are you?
Dec 05 09:30:57 <koen> I read the mailinglist
Dec 05 09:31:05 <fredl> ah, utwente!
Dec 05 09:31:26 <fredl> student or staff?
Dec 05 09:31:39 <koen> student
Dec 05 09:32:16 <fredl> hmm.
Dec 05 09:33:30 <fredl> so, how do openmoko and FIC relate? openmoko is a development framework, correct, and the Neo is a (the first?) real phone to adopt this platform, am I seeing it right that way?
Dec 05 09:33:45 <hrw|work> yes
Dec 05 09:33:59 <hrw|work> and FIC make Neo phone and pay for openmoko development
Dec 05 09:34:02 <fredl> so is there any Dutch reseller already?
Dec 05 09:34:41 <fredl> hmm, also utwente hrw? staff or student? :)
Dec 05 09:34:52 <fredl> looks like an utwente party here, hehe
Dec 05 09:34:59 <hrw|work> fredl: I only have account on this machine
Dec 05 09:35:22 <fredl> ah I see.
Dec 05 09:36:02 <fredl> so is there anybody on here by any chance who could talk business for FIC?
Dec 05 09:36:29 <fredl> I just sent an email to sean@openmoko.com since he's mentioned in a press release....
Dec 05 09:37:40 <koen> sean should know
Dec 05 09:37:49 <koen> he should get back from Japan tomorrow
Dec 05 09:38:15 <fredl> he lives in CA from the looks of it?
Dec 05 09:38:31 <koen> no, taiwan
Dec 05 09:39:05 <fredl> oh okay :) just noticed his 'address' is on the screenshots of the Neo on openmoko.com
Dec 05 09:39:09 <lkcl_work> fredl: if you are an individual, and especially if you are a free software developer, you will be able to buy phones, direct, off of fic.com.tw web site, expected in january.
Dec 05 09:39:24 <lkcl_work> sean is _horrendously_ swamped with email right now, as you might imagine.
Dec 05 09:39:27 <fredl> lkcl_work, I'm a business.
Dec 05 09:40:01 <fredl> lkcl_work, I'd like to find out if there are any Dutch resellers already and of possible get early access.
Dec 05 09:40:27 <lkcl_work> fredl: cool.
Dec 05 09:41:19 <fredl> I'm possibly even interested in pre-buying some Neo's to resell. You know if there's anybody who could tell me more besides Sean?
Dec 05 09:41:20 <lkcl_work> ok.  do you have an email address?  email me at lkcl@lkcl.net, ok?
Dec 05 09:41:59 <fredl> okay I'll send you an email, shall I cc Sean on that since I already sent him email?
Dec 05 09:43:57 <lkcl_work> basically, FIC have made a decision, which may change, to use their existing infrastructure and worldwide offices, to distribute the phones, and they have made this decision based on the high level of interest in the neo1973 and openmoko.
Dec 05 09:44:10 <lkcl_work> however, that of course may change.
Dec 05 09:45:02 <fredl> okay, cool. Besides that I'm also a software developper and see a good business opportunity here.
Dec 05 09:45:23 <fredl> BTW, you know if there are any plans by any chance to upgrade the Neo with Wifi?
Dec 05 09:48:29 <lkcl_work> fredl: look me up on google.  
Dec 05 09:48:46 <lkcl_work> next version, dude :)
Dec 05 09:49:40 <fredl> ah you use advogato? Cool, I used to be chatting with raph (the guy who built that) back in the days on #gimp :)
Dec 05 09:50:04 <fredl> Dutch too, or just living in .nl?
Dec 05 09:52:23 <lkcl_work> fredl: working here.  trying to, anyway.  2nd day back after 2 month break.  can't concentrate on _anything_!
Dec 05 09:52:42 <fredl> LOL, so where you originally from?
Dec 05 09:55:43 <lkcl_work> i'm from the uk.  did you email me?
Dec 05 09:55:49 <fredl> yeah
Dec 05 09:57:39 <fredl> lkcl, I've also co-developped an opensource app called 'UserTracking' together with SURFnet, have you heard of them?
Dec 05 09:58:01 <fredl> lkcl, this is also why I'm so interested in Wifi plans for the neo :)
Dec 05 09:58:43 <fredl> lkcl, if you could motivate FIC to put 802.1x on the Neo I would become sooooo happy! :)
Dec 05 09:59:27 <fredl> BTW, does anybody here know what happened with ImcoSys?
Dec 05 09:59:56 <koen> fredl: 802.1x is easy: 'ipkg install wpa-suplicant'
Dec 05 10:00:02 <lkcl_work> cool.  we'll talk there, avoid cluttering the irc and logs, k?
Dec 05 10:00:30 <fredl> talk where?
Dec 05 10:00:54 <lkcl_work> it'll be an hour before your email passes my damn greylistd - PM me your email address - i won't be able to respond but i'll get it
Dec 05 10:01:20 <greentux> fredl: forget the imcosys guys... hot air everywhere
Dec 05 10:02:02 <fredl> greentux, yeah? I was in touch with the co. that'd import them here in .nl but they got kinda PO'ed with them after their launch was delayed and delayed and delayed.
Dec 05 10:02:35 <fredl> oh well.
Dec 05 10:02:56 <hrw|work> koen: it is easy when you have wifi...
Dec 05 10:03:03 <greentux> fredl: if ypou goolge something about the people behind imcosys you will find interesting things... we had also contact but nothing to touch
Dec 05 10:03:07 <fredl> koen - also EAP-TTLS? :)
Dec 05 10:03:34 <fredl> greentux, hmm. alright.
Dec 05 10:04:02 <buz> imcosys is a few km from here
Dec 05 10:04:06 <buz> i NEVER saw one of their devices
Dec 05 10:04:14 <buz> and they dont seem to care to sell them very much
Dec 05 10:04:26 <fredl> that's so wierd... FUD?
Dec 05 10:04:36 <buz> supposedly the thing is finished
Dec 05 10:04:40 <buz> i should call ;)
Dec 05 10:04:51 <koen> fredl: eap-ttls includes, so you can use eduroam
Dec 05 10:04:51 <fredl> yeah call them! lemme know :-)
Dec 05 10:05:40 <fredl> koen - I have so far not been able to get eduroam to work on my linux box myself. Prolly coz I don't want to shell out excessive money for a Cisco AP :P
Dec 05 10:05:40 <buz> its truly weird
Dec 05 10:05:48 <buz> they dont say anything about getting it these days
Dec 05 10:06:10 <fredl> koen - so I just have a cheapo Cisco AP350 I got from marktplaats.
Dec 05 10:06:11 <buz> but they do have a pw protected sdk on the site
Dec 05 10:06:36 <fredl> well buz if they're only a few miles away from where you are, give 'em a call! LOL
Dec 05 10:07:37 <buz> *calls*
Dec 05 10:07:54 <fredl> lkcl, I also have coded on a proprietary IVR application with Dialogic equipment.
Dec 05 10:07:54 <fredl> that's cool stuff :P so I have some professional deformation with respect to telephony and computing.
Dec 05 10:08:53 <buz> ok they say it is available
Dec 05 10:09:01 <fredl> no shit, really?
Dec 05 10:09:03 <buz> but not on stock for about 6weeks
Dec 05 10:09:12 <buz> price in switzerland is 500CHF
Dec 05 10:09:22 <fredl> how many euros is that? 
Dec 05 10:09:30 <buz> 320 or so
Dec 05 10:09:55 <buz> orders are filled directly by them in switzerland
Dec 05 10:09:55 <koen> ~change 500 chf to eur
Dec 05 10:10:01 <apt> 500.00 Franc (CHF) makes 314.512 Euro (EUR) (from http://www.xe.com/)
Dec 05 10:10:08 <buz> neeat ;)
Dec 05 10:10:11 <koen> apt: botsnack
Dec 05 10:10:12 <apt> :), koen
Dec 05 10:10:20 <fredl> that's pretty damn cheap... I did do some research into them before and I read some rumors that they'll make you pay bigtime for their SDK
Dec 05 10:10:33 <buz> i dont think they are really interested in selling it
Dec 05 10:10:45 <buz> not the guy on the phone anyway
Dec 05 10:10:48 <buz> rather unfriendly and not at all chatty
Dec 05 10:11:04 <buz> "we deliver solutions not phones" what a heap of crapü
Dec 05 10:11:05 <fredl> Hmm.
Dec 05 10:11:21 <buz> tho upon further insistence he did say that one can buy individual ones
Dec 05 10:12:24 <buz> thinking of it, it's pretty damn weird he didnt even mention HIS name
Dec 05 10:12:37 <buz> which is standard in switzerland, really
Dec 05 10:12:44 <fredl> interesting.
Dec 05 10:13:17 <buz> here's what i think: the thing is probably really buggy
Dec 05 10:13:18 <buz> which is why they dont care to advertise it
Dec 05 10:13:36 <buz> if it was usable, why not sell it somewhat more obviously?
Dec 05 10:14:08 <fredl> well there sure was a lot of press buzz about it at some point.
Dec 05 10:14:33 <buz> yeah
Dec 05 10:14:46 <buz> mostly because it was so cheap i guess
Dec 05 10:15:02 <buz> then again there occasionally still is press buzz about the road stuff
Dec 05 10:15:14 <buz> which i'm beginning to believe doesnt actually exist
Dec 05 10:16:06 <buz> http://www.road-gmbh.de/ and apparently the webserver somehow agrees
Dec 05 10:16:43 <koen> I did play with the prototype last FOSDEM
Dec 05 10:16:54 <buz> oh so theere is something
Dec 05 10:16:57 <buz> how big was it really
Dec 05 10:17:00 <koen> big
Dec 05 10:17:07 <koen> like a nokia communicator
Dec 05 10:17:22 <buz> the big or the smaller one?
Dec 05 10:17:37 <buz> i could live with a 9300i style device
Dec 05 10:17:44 <buz> not so much with 9500
Dec 05 10:23:47 <fredl> so openmoko is debian based?
Dec 05 10:25:07 <Kaloz> i hope not
Dec 05 10:25:09 <Kaloz> p
Dec 05 10:25:24 <fredl> heh, why not?
Dec 05 10:25:57 <Kaloz> fredl: because a phone has to based on embedded technology, or it will stink like the nokia 770
Dec 05 10:26:00 <Kaloz> :p
Dec 05 10:26:06 <koen> debian based in the sense that config files are in the same place and stuff like update-alternatives works the same
Dec 05 10:27:39 <Kaloz> if it will be infected with perl, then it will need a rewrite :P
Dec 05 10:30:35 <mickeyl> *yawn*
Dec 05 10:30:37 <hrw|work> hi mickeyl 
Dec 05 10:30:41 <mickeyl> morning folks
Dec 05 10:31:02 <mickeyl> it will be debian-based as much as OpenZaurus, OpenEZX, etc. are debian based.
Dec 05 10:31:16 <mickeyl> we don't use their repository, but we use some of their policies
Dec 05 10:31:20 <mickeyl> which is a fair compromise IMO
Dec 05 10:38:30 <mickeyl> i fully agree with your statement that there's no sense in having the same thing run everything... see OpenBSD on the Zaurus... it's cool, but only useful for like 10 geeks or so
Dec 05 10:38:46 <xorAxAx> netbsd on my toaster for the win!
Dec 05 10:38:50 <koen> 10 geeks with a 6GB disk
Dec 05 10:54:15 <greentux> buz: i have a road here... its big, but the keyboard and display is very nice
Dec 05 10:54:32 <greentux> buz: better then all other devices i saw
Dec 05 11:03:23 <Kaloz> greentux: is it a prerelease unit?
Dec 05 11:30:38 <buz> how much did it cost
Dec 05 11:31:03 <buz> id pay 500? or so
Dec 05 11:31:06 <buz> rumors are double that
Dec 05 12:33:14 <lkcl_work> http://www.whatmobile.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=400063&highlight=#400063
Dec 05 12:34:33 <fredl> dang I hate that the Neo will not (yet) have WiFi, I think I could make a killing with that :P
Dec 05 12:35:16 <fredl> got your email lkcl. checking out a bunch of things here.
Dec 05 12:38:05 <fredl> hmm, external USB wifi...
Dec 05 12:41:11 <hrw|work> fredl: with extra powered hub...
Dec 05 12:42:01 <lkcl_work> fredl: yep - requires power of course.  great for a security device though or as a backup router.  put a powered usb hub plus a wifi dongle and an ethernet dongle on, and use the gprs for emergency internet access for admins
Dec 05 12:47:04 <lkcl_work> webcam onto the phone, with detection software.  anything moves, phone alerts you with a call and with SMS, then creates a tunnel over the internet, over GPRS, to let you in to view the camera.
Dec 05 12:47:28 <lkcl_work> usb-host was a _significant_ addition that only a geek could decide :)
Dec 05 12:47:47 <hrw|work> if you have power for devices
Dec 05 12:49:12 <fredl> how much power would a wifi device use? couldn't it just use the battery?
Dec 05 12:49:30 <hrw|work> wifi sticks want over 500mA
Dec 05 12:49:40 <hrw|work> fic phone provide 0mA
Dec 05 12:49:43 <fredl> *that* much??
Dec 05 12:49:47 <Kaloz> lkcl_work: great, and will it have night vision and 5mpixel camera?
Dec 05 12:49:54 <Kaloz> lkcl_work: otherwise it's pointless and just brainded
Dec 05 12:50:02 <Kaloz> braindead even
Dec 05 12:50:09 <koen> hrw|work: 500mA is the max for the usb spec
Dec 05 12:50:23 <hrw|work> koen: so what? many devices ignore it
Dec 05 12:52:10 <lkcl_work> Kaloz: the htc universal has a night sensor so you can automatically switch on the backlight - when _needed_
Dec 05 12:52:39 <hrw|work> koen: I killed usb port here by charging pda
Dec 05 12:53:37 <fredl> koen, you think eduroam enabled neo's would sell well ?
Dec 05 12:55:23 <fredl> I tend to think of students, still, as 'poor' but I have indications this might not be reality :)
Dec 05 12:56:36 <hrw|work> what is eduroam?
Dec 05 12:56:55 <fredl> eduroam.org
Dec 05 12:57:32 <mikesh> eduroam, very cool organization, i have it in my school :)
Dec 05 12:57:47 <fredl> mikesh - where from?
Dec 05 12:58:02 <mikesh> fredl: czech technical university
Dec 05 12:58:21 <fredl> awesome!
Dec 05 12:58:48 <stefan_schmidt> http://www.eduroam.com/
Dec 05 12:59:02 <mikesh> fredl: i think its international, on every important education centers in europe
Dec 05 13:09:29 <greentux> Kaloz: yes a beta unit...
Dec 05 13:09:45 <greentux> hrw|work: the FIC cant power any usb device? like the nokia 770?
Dec 05 13:10:18 <hrw|work> greentux: thats what current infos say
Dec 05 13:10:38 <mickeyl> it's very complicated to supply power to the usb. kudos to sharp who can do it
Dec 05 13:10:47 <greentux> hrw|work: no little usb flash...
Dec 05 13:10:53 <hrw|work> battery powered hubs will be popular...
Dec 05 13:11:00 <hrw|work> greentux: no bt sticks, no wifi sticks
Dec 05 13:11:13 <hrw|work> I have BT 2.0 EDR stick unused..
Dec 05 13:11:13 <greentux> hrw|work: bt is inside i read
Dec 05 13:11:22 <hrw|work> greentux: wrong read
Dec 05 13:11:25 * mickeyl cringes again
Dec 05 13:11:50 <hrw|work> greentux: current prototype lack bt, new version is unknown in this area
Dec 05 13:12:19 <greentux> thought i read it on mickeyls page ;)
Dec 05 13:12:24 <fredl> any usb wifi sticks that can do 802.1x under Linux?
Dec 05 13:12:25 <hrw|work> but I will stop 'bt or no bt' talks on channels where mickeyl is
Dec 05 13:12:32 <mickeyl> thanks :)
Dec 05 13:12:45 <greentux> agree
Dec 05 13:13:25 <mickeyl> it was on my page
Dec 05 13:13:25 <mickeyl> but i had to remove it 
Dec 05 13:13:25 <mickeyl> hopes are still there
Dec 05 13:13:25 <mickeyl> can tell you more in about 7 - 10 days
Dec 05 13:14:04 <greentux> the it can be better to focus on powered usb...
Dec 05 13:14:33 <mickeyl> are there manufactureres for battery powered hubs?
Dec 05 13:14:40 <mickeyl> if not, we need to convince FIC to build one
Dec 05 13:15:08 <hrw|work> http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ
Dec 05 13:15:21 <hrw|work> first hit
Dec 05 13:15:35 <hrw|work> http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/CPH420MP.asp is homepage
Dec 05 13:15:37 <mickeyl> fair price
Dec 05 13:15:40 <greentux> there are no sdio cards for that microsd i assume...
Dec 05 13:15:41 <mickeyl> $17
Dec 05 13:15:42 <hrw|work> but its big
Dec 05 13:16:02 <hrw|work> http://www.mittoni.com.au/usb-20-powered-7port-hub-p-1920.html
Dec 05 13:16:05 <mickeyl> greentux: unfortunately not. even if there were, you wouldn't get any RF because the slot is in the device below the battery and the PCB
Dec 05 13:16:34 <mickeyl> s/below/between/
Dec 05 13:16:34 <apt> mickeyl meant: greentux: unfortunately not. even if there were, you wouldn't get any RF because the slot is in the device between the battery and the PCB
Dec 05 13:16:42 <greentux> mickeyl: yes dont want to use with RF devices...
Dec 05 13:16:57 <hrw|work> mickeyl: usb host is OTG like spitz/tosa?
Dec 05 13:16:58 <mickeyl> thought you were thinking wifi
Dec 05 13:17:09 <mickeyl> hrw|work: i _think_ so (not sure atm.)
Dec 05 13:17:33 <fredl> I wonder how big an order it would take for FIC to consider adding in WiFi :P
Dec 05 13:17:43 <mickeyl> heh, the other pain
Dec 05 13:17:51 <mickeyl> :D
Dec 05 13:18:13 <mickeyl> If i got one penny for every time someone asked for WiFi I'd be millionaire by now ;)
Dec 05 13:18:23 <mickeyl> including my queries, of course
Dec 05 13:18:24 <mickeyl> heh
Dec 05 13:18:36 <hrw|work> mickeyl: I hope that usbhost cable will be in package so we would not have to pay^Wquery trisoft for such one
Dec 05 13:18:44 <fredl> well Linux/Wifi/GPS is a killer application I think.
Dec 05 13:19:47 <fredl> Triple Play? :-)
Dec 05 13:20:46 <mickeyl> for sure
Dec 05 13:21:04 <fredl> damn there's SO many applications I can think of for that.
Dec 05 13:21:31 <fredl> FIC shoulda launched them before Christmas!
Dec 05 13:21:40 <fredl> (with WiFi:)
Dec 05 13:22:31 <hrw|work> fredl: let them release first version
Dec 05 13:22:44 <fredl> yeah I know
Dec 05 13:22:47 <mickeyl> know that i am an insider I know that it's incredibly hard to design hardware
Dec 05 13:22:59 <mickeyl> hard, costly, time consuming
Dec 05 13:23:09 <mickeyl> and they don't have that much experience than HTC or other phone vendors
Dec 05 13:23:14 <mickeyl> so bear with them and let them start slowly
Dec 05 13:23:51 <fredl> well FIC has lots of consumer electronics experience, right?
Dec 05 13:23:55 <mickeyl> yeah
Dec 05 13:23:57 <fredl> just not phones.
Dec 05 13:24:00 <mickeyl> *nod*
Dec 05 13:24:09 <fredl> I can dig that.
Dec 05 13:24:28 <hrw|work> btw - samsung has 3 uarts?
Dec 05 13:24:31 <mickeyl> yeah
Dec 05 13:24:36 <mickeyl> too few
Dec 05 13:24:40 <mickeyl> hardware-wise this is just the beginning... trust me. I have heard of projects in the pipeline that are mind blasting.
Dec 05 13:25:36 <fredl> they should try an invent something that makes them modular somehow. plug out the GPS, plug in a Wifi or something.
Dec 05 13:26:11 <fredl> that's one major shortcoming of the mobile phone industry right now I think.
Dec 05 13:26:40 <fredl> you get all or nothing.
Dec 05 13:26:59 <hrw|work> fredl: it is hard to join those things: modularity and size
Dec 05 13:27:09 <fredl> oh absolutely.
Dec 05 13:27:27 <hrw|work> for example I would like to have Up/Down buttons on side for volume regulation during call
Dec 05 13:27:42 <hrw|work> first release will probably lack them
Dec 05 13:28:34 <hrw|work> keypad would be nice too
Dec 05 13:28:41 <fredl> so what's with this AGPS chip? what kind of software ? what kind of maps ?
Dec 05 13:28:54 <mickeyl> right. I'd love more buttons as well. this project has been designed for the chinese market and they seem to adore buttonless phones, but future phones will have a more broad scope
Dec 05 13:32:10 * mickeyl goes back to work
Dec 05 14:30:40 <noidd> Ok, so the SoC has a limited number of UARTS.
Dec 05 14:30:51 <noidd> I guess you could increase that by adding them via the USB bus
Dec 05 14:32:11 <fredl> bah, Santa Claus will arrive in Noordwijk the minute after Sinterklaas leaves.
Dec 05 14:42:31 <hrw|work> noidd: or creating serial ports by using gpio lines?
Dec 05 14:50:45 <koen> mickey|bbl: s/adore buttonless phones/adore useless phones/
Dec 05 14:51:13 <mickey|bbl> *nod* ezx is nothing but a shame
Dec 05 15:05:09 <noidd> another prospect, yes.
Dec 05 15:05:19 <noidd> morning everyone btw
Dec 05 15:05:33 <noidd> iirc there are no hard buttons on the phone right?
Dec 05 15:06:16 <noidd> So how do you wake the phones display up to use it?
Dec 05 15:07:59 <hrw|work> noidd: you blank screen and wait for TS touch
Dec 05 15:08:27 <hrw|work> I'm curious will they provide somekind of screen cover
Dec 05 15:08:27 <noidd> i don't understand
Dec 05 15:08:55 <noidd> you see why i'm asking the question
Dec 05 15:09:10 <noidd> i'd be scared to put it in my pocket since it would constantly be switched on
Dec 05 15:09:28 <noidd> its not like there is any spring that the button would fight against to activate it
Dec 05 15:09:42 <noidd> also, I wonder how well the devices bounce on concrete
Dec 05 15:09:56 <noidd> since i've bounced my cellphones and Zaurus' more times than I can count
Dec 05 15:10:39 <mickey|devel> there are two hard buttons
Dec 05 15:10:42 <mickey|devel> one on/off
Dec 05 15:10:44 <mickey|devel> one action
Dec 05 15:11:17 <mickey|devel> we will probably have tap and tap+hold actions for both buttons
Dec 05 15:11:19 <noidd> wherebouts are they physically?
Dec 05 15:11:58 <noidd> and have a userspace daemon waiting for events on them?
Dec 05 15:12:01 <noidd> or some other connection method?
Dec 05 15:12:43 <mickey|devel> physically.... one is slightly left at the top (on / off), one is at the right side vertically centered
Dec 05 15:13:09 <mickey|devel> i think they will be emit events through the input system
Dec 05 15:13:20 <mickey|devel> s/be //
Dec 05 15:13:20 <apt> mickey|devel meant: i think they will emit events through the input system
Dec 05 15:13:30 <noidd> so you'd grab the events with keybindings in gtk?
Dec 05 15:13:41 <mickey|devel> yeah
Dec 05 15:14:04 <mickey|devel> we have a set of specifications for the usage of both buttons though
Dec 05 15:14:12 <noidd> so applications could override default behaviour if they have focus
Dec 05 15:14:13 <mickey|devel> which is mapped to on/off, lock, calling dialer, etc.
Dec 05 15:14:30 <mickey|devel> i'm not sure whether we want that for the on/off button
Dec 05 15:14:48 <mickey|devel> our idea was that the auxiallary button is hardcoded to launch the dialer app
Dec 05 15:14:53 <mickey|devel> on tap
Dec 05 15:14:58 <mickey|devel> and to popup a menu on hold
Dec 05 15:15:03 <mickey|devel> for options like
Dec 05 15:15:06 <mickey|devel> "lock device"
Dec 05 15:15:08 <mickey|devel> "change profile"
Dec 05 15:15:12 <mickey|devel> so, essentially phone stuff
Dec 05 15:15:19 <noidd> I'm wondering if I could hold the device in one hand and be able to comfortably hit both buttons - one with my index finger, the other my thumb
Dec 05 15:15:37 <noidd> if so, "Hello Iambic morse paddle for data entry" :-)
Dec 05 15:15:48 <mickey|devel> probably not, because the on/off is sunken to prevent accidental trigger
Dec 05 15:15:52 <noidd> sorry, I'm self-chuckling
Dec 05 15:16:00 <noidd> ah, crap :-)
Dec 05 15:16:21 <mickey|devel> we can think about all kinds of touch screen interfaces for your morse interest
Dec 05 15:16:21 <mickey|devel> heh
Dec 05 15:16:31 <mickey|devel> a big fat button in the middle
Dec 05 15:16:41 <mickey|devel> and below you see the chars
Dec 05 15:16:43 <mickey|devel> :D
Dec 05 15:16:52 <noidd> Well, if I can have two buttons similtaniously I can input data at 50wpm
Dec 05 15:16:53 <mickey|devel> might as well implement the "senso" game
Dec 05 15:17:11 <noidd> but the touchscreen driver doesn't do multiple touches
Dec 05 15:17:14 <noidd> which is fine
Dec 05 15:17:19 <noidd> just figured i'd ask :-)
Dec 05 15:18:57 <noidd> oh
Dec 05 15:18:59 <noidd> here's a question
Dec 05 15:19:21 <noidd> does the headphone socket provide input as to whether there is something plugged into it?
Dec 05 15:19:44 <noidd> I figure it does since you have to re-route audio to headphones if there are
Dec 05 15:19:48 <mickey|devel> no idea, but i bet it does
Dec 05 15:20:06 <noidd> I wonder how that is read
Dec 05 15:20:07 <mickey|devel> it's just a question whether it's routed to a gpio or whether you have to poll
Dec 05 15:20:25 <mickey|devel> well... that part isn't written yet, but I'm sure I can convince Harald to emit it via input system 
Dec 05 15:20:27 <noidd> Well, concievably you could hook a morse hey up to that.
Dec 05 15:20:33 <mickey|devel> heh
Dec 05 15:21:17 <koen> mickey|devel: time for ASoC + devmand :)
Dec 05 15:21:30 <mickey|devel> ya
Dec 05 15:21:59 <hrw|work> mickey|devel: does it have headphones detection?
Dec 05 15:22:42 <hrw|work> thats a thing which I like in SE phones. I connect headset and it change profile to headset
Dec 05 15:23:29 <mickey|devel> dunno
Dec 05 15:23:32 <mickey|devel> sounds good
Dec 05 15:23:42 <hrw|work> very usefull thing
Dec 05 15:23:47 <noidd> yeah it is
Dec 05 15:24:01 <noidd> and there already has to be some kind of subsystem in place to re-route the audio
Dec 05 15:24:26 <noidd> so make it pluggable so it can notifuy apps of said changes
Dec 05 15:24:49 <hrw|work> noidd: ASoC can take care of it
Dec 05 15:24:51 <koen> that's what dbus is for :)
Dec 05 15:28:19 <noidd> I know little about dbus
Dec 05 15:28:22 <noidd> so time to learn ;-)
Dec 05 15:28:31 <lkcl_w> ok - has anybody thought through the implications of having bluetooth audio enabled, and then plugging in the headset?
Dec 05 15:29:25 <lkcl_w> because if, like in the Ipaqs, it is simply assumed that 'oh, headphone was plugged in, let's connect the audio to it _now_' then you'll end up disconnecting the bluetooth.
Dec 05 15:29:33 <lkcl_w> in mid-conversation.
Dec 05 15:31:13 <lkcl_w> noidd: dbus was written by a bunch of NIH idiots who failed to read the dce/rpc specification, which they duplicated, before beginning their time-wasting efforts.
Dec 05 15:32:39 <lkcl_w> the specification of d-bus is near-identical to that of dce/rpc - except that there are massive omissions in d-bus.  glaring omissions.  like, an rpc compiler, which is a fundamental requirement for saving people time on inter-process communication.
Dec 05 15:34:01 <lkcl_w> anyway.
Dec 05 15:35:57 <lkcl_w> bluetooth audio, car-adapter audio, headphone, speaker, double-routing (in the case of himalaya and universal htc devices) to record phone conversations, stereo speakers (in the case of the universal), flip-over-reverse-lid speaker and mic (in the case of the universal).  whatever audio system is created, it needs to make all of those audio routing combinations simple to add as a driver.
Dec 05 15:36:14 <lkcl_w> and simple to control, from userspace.
Dec 05 15:44:00 <mickey|devel> lkcl: you have a point. probably the dbus guys are too young to remember DCE
Dec 05 15:45:52 <mickey|devel> hmm icon handling in Gtk
Dec 05 15:46:01 <xorAxAx> lkcl: yeah, indeed, tcp was a completly wrong invention, where is the OSI stack?
Dec 05 15:46:20 <xorAxAx> tcp is osi with many omissions ...
Dec 05 15:56:11 <xorAxAx> even ms had to change dce to suite their needs ...
Dec 05 16:13:53 <noidd> DCE?
Dec 05 16:13:54 <noidd> Wow, that
Dec 05 16:14:04 <noidd> 's something I've not used since my IBM days
Dec 05 16:14:09 <noidd> AIX
Dec 05 16:22:36 <mickey|devel> hi tim
Dec 05 16:28:21 <noidd> I bet if Tim has been on this channel before someone has asked him about a bzflag port to the phone :-)
Dec 05 16:40:55 <xorAxAx> noidd: i did
Dec 05 16:43:37 <jgw2001> I want to buy a moko phone, I do a buy one......
Dec 05 16:43:48 <jgw2001> I want to buy a moko phone, how do I buy one......
Dec 05 16:44:01 <mickey|devel> i'm afraid you have to wait until next year (see topic 'ETA')
Dec 05 16:44:28 <jgw2001> So if some one offered million dollars for one now, you would say no?
Dec 05 16:44:35 <xorAxAx> FIC doesnt seem to have a retailer network to me ...
Dec 05 16:44:38 <xorAxAx> i checked it today
Dec 05 16:44:51 <xorAxAx> jgw2001: everybody would start to laugh and then say no :)
Dec 05 16:45:06 <mickey|devel> worldwide direct marketing...
Dec 05 16:45:11 <xorAxAx> except if you had some suitcases with you
Dec 05 16:45:25 <xorAxAx> mickey|devel: hmm?
Dec 05 16:45:35 <hrw|work> jgw2001: if you want to have big devboard with lcd connected and some cables, external powersupply etc...
Dec 05 16:45:41 <mickey|devel> hehe
Dec 05 16:45:50 <hrw|work> jgw2001: then you would get one for that 1mln usd
Dec 05 16:45:53 <mickey|devel> i'm tempted to make a picture of my devel board, but I'm afraid I'm not allowed to show
Dec 05 16:46:29 <hrw|work> mickey|devel: got 1800 part working or 900 card?
Dec 05 16:46:59 <jgw2001> Well if had 1 million pounds.....
Dec 05 16:47:01 <mickey|devel> hrw|work: neither one. still no one sent me a new antenna :/
Dec 05 16:47:11 <TimRiker> noidd: :) all the world wants 3d gaming on their phone. :) I wan augmented reality so I can overlay the game on the real world and see other people playing. :)
Dec 05 16:47:23 <mickey|devel> jgw2001: cash doesn't matter. having the device ready matters. it's just not there yet, sorry
Dec 05 16:48:00 <hrw|work> mickey|devel: you do not have 1EUR prepaids there?
Dec 05 16:48:36 <jgw2001> Do you know the specfic phone is 3g compatble, and as it is opensource, is it compatable with any availble phones (ie uploading the software)
Dec 05 16:48:39 <hrw|work> mickey|devel: in Poland I can buy prepaid sim cards for 5 pln (1.3EUR)
Dec 05 16:48:55 <hrw|work> mickey|devel: and all our networks are 900/1800 ;D
Dec 05 16:49:46 <jgw2001> In the UK you can buy a prepaid phone for £5
Dec 05 16:49:57 <mickey|devel> jgw2001: it's 2.5G (see press release). it doesn't feature JAVA (yet), so there's nothing to upload yet. The whole idea of OpenMoko is to be able to run native applications, not JAVA, so it's very low priority for us
Dec 05 16:50:28 <koen> mickey|devel: if FIC talking to qualcomm and/or ericsson?
Dec 05 16:50:42 <mickey|devel> koen: no idea. that's a question for Sean
Dec 05 16:51:10 <mickey|devel> i'm more or less disconnected from everything marketing
Dec 05 16:51:12 <koen> afaik those are the only companies having an umts stack
Dec 05 16:51:14 <mickey|devel> strategy etc.
Dec 05 16:51:58 <hrw|work> have to go - cu
Dec 05 16:52:10 <mickey|devel> cu hrw
Dec 05 16:55:26 <mickey|devel> ok, i don't think I violate anything with showing you that:
Dec 05 16:55:31 <mickey|devel> http://linuxtogo.org/~mickeyl/misc/DSC00002.JPG
Dec 05 16:55:31 <mickey|devel> :D
Dec 05 16:55:59 <alphaone> cool :-)
Dec 05 16:56:08 <xorAxAx> incredible
Dec 05 16:56:18 <xorAxAx> as compact as my first mitsubishi phone
Dec 05 16:56:19 <lkcl> TimRiker: that's too funny.  well, with gps, it's not too far off.
Dec 05 16:57:41 <duffolonious> hehe
Dec 05 16:57:50 <xorAxAx> whats the yellow thingie? the antenna? :)
Dec 05 16:58:10 <mickey|devel> yeah
Dec 05 16:58:56 <mickey|devel> ok, and one more straight out of the lab
Dec 05 16:58:57 <mickey|devel> http://linuxtogo.org/~mickeyl/misc/x-on-gta01v3.jpg
Dec 05 16:59:44 <mickey|devel> that needs to be enough for a teaser
Dec 05 17:00:20 <koen> that makes mallum happy as well
Dec 05 17:00:26 <mickey|devel> hehe
Dec 05 17:00:45 <alphaone> mickey|devel: That's three buttons on the sides?
Dec 05 17:01:12 <mickey|devel> no
Dec 05 17:01:15 <alphaone> Or maybe plugs of some sort
Dec 05 17:01:16 <mickey|devel> one is usb
Dec 05 17:01:22 <mickey|devel> one is the aux button
Dec 05 17:01:28 <mickey|devel> one is something else
Dec 05 17:01:32 <mickey|devel> antenna connector or something
Dec 05 17:01:44 <alphaone> :-)
Dec 05 17:01:49 <mickey|devel> left hand side microphone socket
Dec 05 17:01:52 <koen> mickey|devel: is that the 2.8" one?
Dec 05 17:01:56 <mickey|devel> yea
Dec 05 17:02:08 <alphaone> nice
Dec 05 17:02:37 <koen> mickey|devel: so we can start talking DPI :)
Dec 05 17:02:47 <mickey|devel> nah, these are old pics
Dec 05 17:03:10 <mickey|devel> i haven't had a chance to play more with the actual hardware since weeks :/
Dec 05 17:03:27 <mickey|devel> in 7-10 days *crossing fingers*
Dec 05 17:54:15 <noidd> bah mickey, I get 403's on those urls :-P
Dec 05 17:55:04 <duffolonious> noidd: he already pulled them - you're too slow :)
Dec 05 17:55:13 <noidd> damnit - I'll never go to lunch again!
Dec 05 17:55:59 <duffolonious> hmmm.... well I have the images...  one moment.
Dec 05 17:56:04 * duffolonious hopes mickey|devel doesn't mind.
Dec 05 17:56:12 <noidd> send in msg just in case
Dec 05 17:56:14 <noidd> :-)
Dec 05 17:56:25 <tampakuro_> i wanna see too.
Dec 05 17:57:58 <duffolonious> http://duffolon.us/~bryan/mickey_pics/ - enjoy
Dec 05 17:59:17 <noidd> I can't get the second grafic to load
Dec 05 18:42:31 <rob_w> any code yet ?
Dec 05 18:43:05 <stefan_schmidt> rob_w: It will be announced. No need to ask such questions again and again.
Dec 05 18:43:52 <rob_w> so it hasent been yet
Dec 05 18:44:25 <rob_w> any rumors of what widget library they use ?
Dec 05 18:45:15 * nnpiggy waits with eager anticipation...
Dec 05 18:47:11 <mjr> gtk
Dec 05 18:55:47 <goxboxlive> stefan_scmidt: I have read the mailinglist for openmoko. Is it like like someone saying a bad thing to make openmoko runon inexample HTC devices? 
Dec 05 19:00:07 <koen> goxboxlive: as that person and find out
Dec 05 19:00:22 <koen> s/as/ask/
Dec 05 19:00:23 <apt> koen meant: goxboxlive: ask that person and find out
Dec 05 19:01:12 <stefan_schmidt> goxboxlive: Don't get Robert wrong. He just prefer the Neo device.
Dec 05 19:01:35 <goxboxlive> ok
Dec 05 19:01:54 <stefan_schmidt> goxboxlive: I see no problem to have openmoko on other devices. It is _designed_ for exactly this purpose. :)
Dec 05 19:02:14 <goxboxlive> right.
Dec 05 19:02:57 * stefan_schmidt writes a mail...
Dec 05 19:05:29 <rob_w> stefan_schmidt, interesting 
Dec 05 19:08:25 <duffolonious> "FIC Neo1973 Smartphone" - is this currently the only supported phone?
Dec 05 19:10:44 * koen writes mail as well
Dec 05 19:10:59 <koen> I wonder where I stole "It's not open if you don't share" from
Dec 05 19:13:46 * koen awaits stefan_schmidt's mail
Dec 05 19:14:49 <[g2]> koen "The streets will find there own use for technology" :)
Dec 05 19:15:05 <[g2]> loose neuromancer quote
Dec 05 19:15:36 <[g2]> Oh.... and stealing the exensive 3MB )
Dec 05 19:15:46 * koen wonders who's pancreas will get exchanged
Dec 05 19:15:48 <[g2]> s/exensive/expensive/
Dec 05 19:15:48 <apt> [g2] meant: Oh.... and stealing the expensive 3MB )
Dec 05 19:19:45 <stefan_schmidt> koen: send
Dec 05 19:22:06 <stefan_schmidt> stupid ChanServ. Do what we tell you. :)
Dec 05 19:23:43 <buz> i'm inclined to think it actually does that
Dec 05 19:23:48 <buz> it just doesnt let us tell what to do ;)
Dec 05 19:24:17 <stefan_schmidt> heh
Dec 05 19:24:55 <buz> what kind of browser does maemo use?
Dec 05 19:25:22 <buz> that will be a huge piece of code openmoko desperately needs
Dec 05 19:25:49 <stefan_schmidt> IIRC browser is not decided yet.
Dec 05 19:26:17 <duffolonious> I heard talk of minimo (linuxdevices?)
Dec 05 19:27:35 <buz> i think so far minimo is a pocketpc only thing?
Dec 05 19:27:49 <buz> personally i would prefer khtml to gecko
Dec 05 19:28:05 <buz> but with it being gtk based khtml might be too much entrenched with qt
Dec 05 19:28:17 <buz> (then again, webkit doesnt seem to use qt at all so not all is lost)
Dec 05 19:28:39 <buz> and nokia uses khtml / webkit in their zooming s60 browser
Dec 05 19:28:43 <rob_w> buz, why not gpe-minibrowser or similar ?
Dec 05 19:28:47 <marcb4242> minimo runs at least on familiar
Dec 05 19:29:03 <buz> because using yet another engine is a bad thing in my book
Dec 05 19:29:10 <buz> especially if its one that isnt widely used
Dec 05 19:29:28 <rob_w> so the engine is choosen , well then
Dec 05 19:29:30 <marcb4242> gpe-minibrowser has no ajax support, minimo does.
Dec 05 19:29:44 <buz> mhh minimo on familiar? minimo it is then ;)
Dec 05 19:29:54 <buz> can we have minimo on the desktop? 
Dec 05 19:29:58 <marcb4242> google maps run on minimo but not on gpe-minibrowser
Dec 05 19:30:01 <buz> firefox is getting slower and slower
Dec 05 19:30:44 <rob_w> is minimo well maintained ?
Dec 05 19:31:16 <buz> isnt minimo essentially gecko with some glue?
Dec 05 19:33:12 <rob_w> hmm but real gecko can be quite intesiv in terms of footprint i think
Dec 05 19:33:51 <buz> well as soon as j2me works one can use opera mobile for really small footprint ;)
Dec 05 19:34:00 <marcb4242> rob_w: there are still new nightlies for minimo. but only two developers and many nasty users
Dec 05 19:34:10 <buz> that thing works surprisingly good
Dec 05 19:34:33 <marcb4242> rob_w: mostly the pocketpc users are complaining everywhere
Dec 05 19:34:34 <buz> of course opera proper would be very nice 
Dec 05 19:35:04 <marcb4242> buz: no source code
Dec 05 19:35:09 <rob_w> but then u are moving kinda away from gpl 
Dec 05 19:35:14 <buz> sure
Dec 05 19:35:21 <buz> but i'm from the use the best tool for the job camp
Dec 05 19:35:27 <buz> not from the fsf fundamentalist camp
Dec 05 19:35:42 <rob_w> then ur the guy with all the money , right ?
Dec 05 19:35:55 <stefan_schmidt> buz: I think you will have a hard time here. ;)
Dec 05 19:35:56 <buz> as student, not so much ;)
Dec 05 19:36:16 <stefan_schmidt> heh
Dec 05 19:36:22 <rob_w> i also prefer spending my money , as the saying ".. spend ur money, so it will return " 
Dec 05 19:36:28 <buz> stefan_schmidt: i use kde almost exclusively on my desktop and laptop ;)
Dec 05 19:37:07 <buz> but i wont use vesa drivers just to avoid nvidia's blob
Dec 05 19:37:10 <duffolonious> hmmm... minimo looks like it may be inactive.
Dec 05 19:37:18 <duffolonious> looking at the forums.
Dec 05 19:39:13 <duffolonious> from a UI perspective, minimo looks good for a pda, imo.
Dec 05 19:39:17 <buz> besides i'm not the only pragmatist around i believe
Dec 05 19:40:21 <duffolonious> it's not like there can't be multiple browsers used.
Dec 05 19:42:14 <stefan_schmidt> buz: I was just kidding. Of course there will be more pragmatists around.
Dec 05 19:42:29 <buz> well rest assured i'm not lightly offended ;-9
Dec 05 19:42:54 <marcb4242> screenshot minimo on ipaq: http://handhelds.org/scap/port.11361.png
Dec 05 19:43:41 <marcb4242> duffolonious: last blog post of minimo developer dougt dates from july
Dec 05 19:43:56 <koen> marcb4242: I had google maps running on gpe-mini-browser a while back
Dec 05 19:44:14 <rob_w> koen, i bet so 
Dec 05 19:47:35 <marcb4242> koen: I have version 0.19 which does not work
Dec 05 19:47:56 <marcb4242> koen: from familiar 0.8.4 feeds
Dec 05 19:48:15 <buz> google maps on gprs is a good way to go bankrupt *EG*
Dec 05 19:48:37 <marcb4242> buz: prices are falling
Dec 05 19:48:39 <duffolonious> 0.19 dates back to January of this year too.
Dec 05 19:48:51 <buz> from 7? to 5? per mb around here
Dec 05 19:49:11 <buz> tho you can get 2GB per month for 30? but who needs 2GB each month
Dec 05 19:49:31 <marcb4242> from 25EUR / MB to 0,30EUR / MB here or 70EUR/month flat
Dec 05 19:49:32 <buz> gimme 100mb for 5? a month
Dec 05 19:49:36 * alphaone fortunately has a UMTS flatrate
Dec 05 19:49:43 <myren> whoo flatrate
Dec 05 19:49:48 <buz> true flatrate?
Dec 05 19:49:54 <alphaone> And I can't wail for all these kick-ass apps
Dec 05 19:49:59 <alphaone> Yep
Dec 05 19:50:02 <buz> if i could get true umts flatrate i just might kick cable
Dec 05 19:50:02 <stefan_schmidt> heh
Dec 05 19:50:08 <alphaone> At least they say so
Dec 05 19:50:11 <myren> uh, i hear they start complaining around 50 G a month usually
Dec 05 19:50:19 <buz> around here they offer unlimited accounts
Dec 05 19:50:21 <buz> limited to 2gb
Dec 05 19:50:23 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: BTW, can I get my UMTS card back? ;)
Dec 05 19:50:27 <myren> right exactly
Dec 05 19:50:31 <alphaone> Well I didn't hit that limit yet
Dec 05 19:50:40 <buz> well they even say it's limited to 2gb
Dec 05 19:50:44 <buz> just how that is legal i dont know
Dec 05 19:50:45 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: Just kidding.
Dec 05 19:50:56 <alphaone> heh
Dec 05 19:51:01 * stefan_schmidt looks forward to use alphaone's umts flatrate on 23C3. :)
Dec 05 19:51:57 <myren> stateside, they'll triangulate your signal and sedn the mafia after you if you do certain types of vpn
Dec 05 19:52:24 <myren> for some reason they really do not approve
Dec 05 19:52:56 <buz> in the us they even deactivate hardware that is on the phone 
Dec 05 19:53:04 <myren> thats just Verizon
Dec 05 19:53:06 <buz> just why people put up with that i dont understand
Dec 05 19:53:18 <myren> its america, land of consumerism and cheap goods
Dec 05 19:53:26 <myren> if you dont like the massification of yoru products, you can suck it
Dec 05 19:53:41 <buz> not sure thats right
Dec 05 19:53:49 <buz> if you dont like to pay more for more you can suck it
Dec 05 19:53:58 <buz> which is true for most places
Dec 05 19:54:06 <myren> verizon does not operate that way
Dec 05 19:54:35 <myren> they operate on the "we are the network" and you will accept our network and all the insane crippling things we do to our hardware
Dec 05 19:54:44 <myren> since we are the network, you have no choice
Dec 05 19:54:50 <myren> massification
Dec 05 19:54:55 <buz> isnt verizon gsm?
Dec 05 19:55:00 <myren> no
Dec 05 19:55:05 <buz> ah well
Dec 05 19:55:09 <buz> for cdma all hope is lost
Dec 05 19:55:27 <myren> they cooked up their own proprietary cdma just to make sure you couldnt get around the crap hardware they sell
Dec 05 19:56:16 <buz> but considering that there are gsm networks, it's mostly the consumers fault
Dec 05 19:56:34 <myren> verizon has way better coverage
Dec 05 19:56:43 <myren> theres a lot of places where there really is no choice
Dec 05 19:57:04 <noidd> T-mobile has coverage here but won't sell accounts in this state
Dec 05 19:57:18 <buz> no prepay?
Dec 05 19:57:21 <noidd> I'm guessing that means my area has a network the peer on as opposed to own
Dec 05 19:57:31 <noidd> not sure
Dec 05 19:57:40 <noidd> my main interest was in their data services
Dec 05 19:57:49 <noidd> I looked seriously at the sidekcik for a while
Dec 05 19:58:04 <noidd> the sidekick is by far the most used phone in the Deaf community
Dec 05 19:58:12 <noidd> hence my leanings that way.
Dec 05 19:58:41 <myren> sprint owns a majority of hte spectrum
Dec 05 19:58:45 <myren> they just dont use it
Dec 05 19:58:59 <myren> some day their data plan will be really good... some day far far away
Dec 05 19:59:19 <buz> i'm waiting for wimax
Dec 05 20:02:10 <myren> i'm waiting for singularity
Dec 05 20:02:20 <myren> thats why i'm on #openmoko
Dec 05 20:20:26 <buz> if singularity is skynet i dont want it ;)
Dec 05 20:21:38 <myren> singularity is a point where change goes non-zero.  it stops being an incremental responsive process to old systems, and instead takes off and hurls itself in another direction.
Dec 05 20:22:12 <buz> didnt skynet start learning geometrically?
Dec 05 20:22:34 <myren> when did skynet go online again?
Dec 05 20:22:42 <buz> well that depends
Dec 05 20:22:49 <buz> in terminator 1+2 it was 1997
Dec 05 20:23:07 <buz> in the abomination that is terminator 3 skynet was something else entirely
Dec 05 20:23:10 <myren> bitch mother network sure is taking her sweet time in killing us all
Dec 05 20:23:32 <duffolonious> buz: for t3 they "modernized" it.
Dec 05 20:23:40 <buz> it's probably happily crunching away inside seti ;)
Dec 05 20:24:00 <duffolonious> but "geometrically" was term they used to describe how quickly it learned.
Dec 05 20:24:09 <duffolonious> not how it learned.
Dec 05 20:24:18 <myren> aahhh thank you
Dec 05 20:25:15 <myren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_progression for those who dont remember 10th grade
Dec 05 20:25:37 <myren> a(n) = a(1) r ** (n-1)
Dec 05 20:25:51 <myren> where r is a geometric ratio
Dec 05 20:25:54 <myren> aka a constant
Dec 05 20:26:01 <duffolonious> heheh, yep
Dec 05 20:26:43 <buz> duffolonious: i thought that was obvious ;)
Dec 05 20:27:04 <myren> i was trying to picture a system whcih could infer intelligence from geometry
Dec 05 20:27:16 <myren> given the swarm bots running around skylabs, it wouldve made some kind of sense
Dec 05 20:27:18 <duffolonious> buz: in the context you used it I was confused 
Dec 05 20:27:34 <duffolonious> yeah, what myren said :)
Dec 05 20:27:35 <buz> well i'm not a mathematician
Dec 05 20:27:49 <buz> i get to say stuff thats not really correct ;)
Dec 05 20:27:57 <duffolonious> "for those who dont remember 10th grade" - did you graduate high school? ;)
Dec 05 20:28:01 <buz> i was just too lazy to type at speed
Dec 05 20:28:12 <duffolonious> I see
Dec 05 20:29:13 <myren> i graduated high school, but its been a lot of years between then and now
Dec 05 20:29:24 <myren> i dont think i could taylor series now, but at some point i passed calc II
Dec 05 20:29:26 <duffolonious> to summarize: the original movie treated skynet like a mainframe, t3 treated it like seti@home.
Dec 05 20:29:34 <buz> exactly
Dec 05 20:29:39 <myren> no no,
Dec 05 20:29:42 <buz> whereas the later is making a lot more sense
Dec 05 20:29:48 <myren> the original movie presumed a mainframe like behavior
Dec 05 20:30:02 <myren> john carter assumed mainframe like behavior
Dec 05 20:30:02 <buz> just how a mainframe like thingy would learn at ever increasing speed is beyond me
Dec 05 20:30:03 <myren> and he was wrong
Dec 05 20:30:07 <myren> wait was that the kids name?
Dec 05 20:30:24 <duffolonious> myren: I don't follow, who was wrong?
Dec 05 20:30:25 <koen> john carter is from ER :)
Dec 05 20:30:27 <duffolonious> jon connor?
Dec 05 20:30:33 <myren> yes thanks
Dec 05 20:30:43 <myren> i'm amazed i got that close for pulling a name out of my arse
Dec 05 20:30:54 <buz> the brain is a weird device
Dec 05 20:31:04 <buz> first shot usually gets you rather close
Dec 05 20:31:15 <myren> have you read Jeff?  Hawkins On Intelligence?
Dec 05 20:31:26 <myren> aside from the complete lack of science, it was a good read
Dec 05 20:32:27 <buz> not sure i can remember the time i read the last non science /  non textbook book
Dec 05 20:32:29 <duffolonious> "Reese: It had no choice. Their defense grid was smashed. We'd won. Taking out Connor then would make no difference. Skynet had to wipe out his entire existance." - from the original movie.  Maybe later they said he got it wrong, but I don't recall.
Dec 05 20:32:51 <duffolonious> myren: Jeff Hawkins?
Dec 05 20:33:09 <myren> duffolonious: he's a computer guy turned brain guy
Dec 05 20:33:17 <myren> invented Palm or something
Dec 05 20:33:47 <duffolonious> I see - is his paper on artificial intelligence?  or just intelligence in general?
Dec 05 20:34:11 <myren> its a book on how the brain works and what ai can pull from it
Dec 05 20:34:22 <myren> hold please
Dec 05 20:36:12 <buz> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4271004882.html now THAT is embarassing for trolltech considering that yahua makes the greenphone
Dec 05 20:37:47 <buz> and i did think esmertec was mostly dead these days anyhow
Dec 05 20:39:07 <duffolonious> buz: the jbed jvm thingy?
Dec 05 20:39:12 <buz> yes
Dec 05 20:39:25 * duffolonious doesn't quite understand this wantoness for java and embedded devices.
Dec 05 20:39:37 <buz> well i do
Dec 05 20:39:47 <buz> but i dont understand why you would pay for closed source stuff really
Dec 05 20:39:58 <duffolonious> what are the advantages?
Dec 05 20:40:12 <duffolonious> (besides that major disadvantage)
Dec 05 20:40:13 <buz> cant have buffer overflows
Dec 05 20:40:31 <duffolonious> ok, the usual java bonuses?
Dec 05 20:40:36 <buz> yeah i guess so
Dec 05 20:40:42 <buz> and with those java accelerating arm cores its probably not even that slow
Dec 05 20:40:44 <duffolonious> quicker development, better fsck handling, etc...
Dec 05 20:41:01 <duffolonious> yet, don't they mangle/strip the java api anyway?
Dec 05 20:41:09 <buz> sure they do
Dec 05 20:41:17 <duffolonious> so even if you were a java developer it's quite different.
Dec 05 20:41:25 <buz> just look at the size of j2se
Dec 05 20:41:28 <duffolonious> (thus negating the "quick development")
Dec 05 20:41:31 <myren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchical_Temporal_Memory
Dec 05 20:41:39 <buz> well it depends
Dec 05 20:41:49 <buz> the stuff that is actually there is mostly the same IIRC
Dec 05 20:41:55 <buz> its just a lot that is missing
Dec 05 20:42:13 <myren> that HTM links is Jeff Raskins's memory thingie
Dec 05 20:43:23 <myren> the problem with java is its memory consumption
Dec 05 20:43:32 <myren> which makes it a terrible choice for embedded systems
Dec 05 20:43:35 <myren> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/debian/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=java
Dec 05 20:43:52 <buz> i dont think you can really compare j2se on i386 with j2me
Dec 05 20:43:56 <duffolonious> myren: yep yep
Dec 05 20:44:02 <myren> that comparison defaults to gcc, but you can compare java to anything
Dec 05 20:44:21 <myren> buz: you have a good point
Dec 05 20:44:26 <buz> considering that you pretty much need j2me on a consumer phone these days
Dec 05 20:44:36 <buz> its not that weird that you would implement most of the stack in j2me
Dec 05 20:45:07 <myren> personally i'd rather be using mono on my embedded devices
Dec 05 20:45:11 <buz> (now i dont think j2me is worth very much but still, i can see their point)
Dec 05 20:45:42 <myren> its a full stack, has a very good linker for reducing all the code you dont need included, and has a reasonable memory footprint
Dec 05 20:45:52 <myren> but the preference is largely just personal
Dec 05 20:46:43 <buz> i tend to believe java has the better development tools on linux
Dec 05 20:46:58 <myren> personal preference
Dec 05 20:47:10 <myren> monodevelop is getting better, its probably still behind eclipse
Dec 05 20:47:10 <buz> probably
Dec 05 20:47:22 <buz> the languages are very similar anyhow
Dec 05 20:47:22 <myren> but i just use vim or gvim and nant/ant anyways
Dec 05 20:47:55 <myren> yes, yes indeed.  i happen to know the CIL (bytecode) that mono uses really well, which is why i prefer it
Dec 05 20:48:08 <myren> and i know the bytecode hacking libraries
Dec 05 20:49:28 <duffolonious> this benchmarking site is interesting.
Dec 05 20:49:41 <duffolonious> c apparently doesn't do well with this "regex-dna" program.
Dec 05 20:51:13 <myren> posix regex is classically fairly unoptimized
Dec 05 20:52:14 <buz> i once saw a benchmark of various regex packages
Dec 05 20:52:22 <buz> they were factors of 10 and 20 apart
Dec 05 20:52:41 <buz> thats not really a good language benchmark
Dec 05 20:52:43 <buz> more a library benchmark
Dec 05 20:53:37 <myren> yeah exactly
Dec 05 20:53:59 <myren> sometimes it comes for free.  fast regex is just an assumed part of perl
Dec 05 20:55:28 <duffolonious> I wonder about some of these benchmarks.
Dec 05 20:56:04 <duffolonious> PHP and Python have a lot of c code simply wrapped.
Dec 05 20:56:30 <duffolonious> as does perl.
Dec 05 20:56:57 <myren> i havent looked at php or python
Dec 05 20:57:29 <myren> which tests?
Dec 05 20:58:13 <duffolonious> well, c effectively kills PHP.
Dec 05 20:58:27 <buz> would be kinda embarrassing if it didnt
Dec 05 20:58:43 <buz> as for regex, these days many simply seem to use perl regex
Dec 05 20:58:50 <buz> at the very least PCRE
Dec 05 21:00:01 <duffolonious> well, perl's regex is pulled from sed - iirc.
Dec 05 21:00:07 <duffolonious> sed is all in c.
Dec 05 21:01:03 * duffolonious gets confused by this, but whatever... it's a party!
Dec 05 21:05:43 <myren> :)
Dec 05 21:06:02 <myren> wow. that htm article on wikipedia is totally useless.
Dec 05 21:06:10 <myren> then again htm is fairly ambiguous
Dec 05 22:03:25 <mickeyl> *yawn*
Dec 05 22:07:36 <noidd> tired man?
Dec 05 22:08:26 <mickeyl> ya. was playing table tennis for a couple of hours
Dec 05 22:08:28 <mickeyl> that's always exhausting
Dec 05 22:09:33 <noidd> sounds too much like hard work to me
Dec 05 22:09:53 <noidd> I saw the photos earlier - looked like my old lab :-)
Dec 05 22:10:00 <mickeyl> hehe
Dec 05 22:10:08 <noidd> I got all nostalgic
Dec 05 22:13:25 <mickeyl> i don't enjoy working with devel boards and preproduction hardware too much
Dec 05 22:13:29 <mickeyl> i'm more of a software guy
Dec 05 22:20:46 <mickeyl> guess i better lay down. g'night
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Dec 06 02:59:57 2006