**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 22 02:59:57 2006
Dec 22 07:43:25 <aloril> I wonder if external USB disk would be usable? (they have their own power source, so that should not be problem)
Dec 22 09:43:42 <mjr> aloril, one would imagine that a model with its own power source would be usable...
Dec 22 10:34:57 <mickey|zzZZzz> aloril: yes, that should work
Dec 22 10:40:17 <koen> mickey|zzZZzz: good morning!
Dec 22 10:49:11 <mickeyl> morning
Dec 22 12:41:44 <[g2]> any java guys see the "phoneME" Sun GPL v2 release ?  It's supposed to build for ARM
Dec 22 12:47:37 <mickeyl> interesting
Dec 22 13:05:40 <mjr> [g2], just noticed it; a bit unexpected for the ME to go first, but hey, not complaining what with the moko...
Dec 22 13:07:52 <[g2]> mickeyl, as an old-school embedded guy, I must admit that my general leaning on Java on phones was (Java is for wussies).  But Google's gmm was a serious dent to that opinion
Dec 22 13:09:12 <[g2]> so my latest take, is that combine with the GPLv2 release is that Java will have some legs for many little apps
Dec 22 13:10:56 <mickeyl> well, as long as people want to see it, they now have the foundation to make it happen
Dec 22 13:11:27 <mickeyl> personally, i don't care much about Java, but that's because I'm a C++ evangelist ;)
Dec 22 13:14:55 <mjr> Java is nice, but not all it's cracked up to be. Still, good to have that foundation you mentioned; there is a lot of Java stuff out there
Dec 22 13:32:06 <koen> less talk, more .bb files
Dec 22 13:32:14 <koen> (about java)
Dec 22 14:09:31 <koen> http://www.openembedded.org/~koen/java/
Dec 22 14:09:34 <koen> now go play :)
Dec 22 14:11:31 <marcb4242> koen: how big is the resulting ipk?
Dec 22 14:11:39 <koen> it doesn't build
Dec 22 14:11:43 <koen> yet
Dec 22 14:23:26 <marcb4242> is there information available if openmoko will allow for rotating the screen?
Dec 22 14:24:41 <koen> the screen is fixed inside the casing
Dec 22 14:26:34 <koen> marcb4242: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000884.html
Dec 22 14:26:52 <xorAxAx> stupid answer :)
Dec 22 14:28:00 <marcb4242> stupid question :)
Dec 22 14:28:27 <koen> standard answer "It's open, so you can do anything you want"
Dec 22 14:29:37 <xorAxAx> hehe
Dec 22 14:29:40 <marcb4242> for sure, but my day has only 24h. but I'll spend as many as possible of them for developing for the neo/openmoko
Dec 22 14:30:04 <koen> ~kill phoneme buildsystem
Dec 22 14:30:06 * apt shoots a super-inverse photon gun at phoneme buildsystem
Dec 22 14:30:14 <koen> apt: botsnack
Dec 22 14:30:14 <apt> aw, gee, koen
Dec 22 14:30:36 <xorAxAx> ~botsnack
Dec 22 14:30:36 <apt> xorAxAx: aw, gee
Dec 22 14:31:00 <koen> I hope that will silence all java script kiddies
Dec 22 14:31:55 <timtimred> shh, java has to me taken seriously!!!! :D
Dec 22 14:32:05 * marcb4242 never asked for java
Dec 22 14:32:31 <timtimred> i mean, al those massive enterprise apps that use it cant suck TOO much when they lock a 16GB process to collect garbage
Dec 22 14:32:38 <marcb4242> I prefer native apps
Dec 22 14:32:54 <koen> native apps are the only sane option for a phone
Dec 22 14:32:58 <timtimred> not that im bitter or anything
Dec 22 14:32:59 <koen> but
Dec 22 14:33:05 <koen> OMG MIDP!!!! LOL
Dec 22 14:34:28 <marcb4242> until 30secs ago I didn't even know what MIDPs are
Dec 22 14:34:56 <timtimred> mobile java has been to sucessful to be ignored !!!
Dec 22 14:35:07 <timtimred> im glad its going in to the openmoko project
Dec 22 14:35:21 <timtimred> :D
Dec 22 14:35:40 <marcb4242> what I mind wrt java is all that enterprisey-ness. their website sucks from all the marketing speak
Dec 22 14:36:00 <marcb4242> one doesn't find any sh*t there
Dec 22 14:37:07 <koen> the "write your one GNUmakefile" approach scares of most script kiddies
Dec 22 14:38:23 <marcb4242> somewhat true. the barrier to get the first stuff done is a lot higher.
Dec 22 14:38:56 <marcb4242> but once one starts to *understand* things all the OSS stuff is so much more powerful
Dec 22 14:39:53 <timtimred> the sun site is okay once you are used to it
Dec 22 14:39:54 <marcb4242> compare nokia paying every year 100M$ to symbian for the os licenses to the money spent by FIC for openmoko :-p
Dec 22 14:40:47 <koen> marcb4242: once you understand the cdc buildsystem you will be batshit insane
Dec 22 14:42:02 <marcb4242> koen: CDC as in RFID,CDC/CLDC,MIDP,LDAP,XML,SOAP?
Dec 22 14:42:07 <marcb4242> :-p
Dec 22 14:42:17 <koen> yep
Dec 22 14:42:28 <mjr> center for disease control, you silly
Dec 22 14:43:39 <marcb4242> it's already telling if google spits out an acronym in such a neighborhood - very, very enterprisey... lol
Dec 22 14:44:56 <marcb4242> koen: and you wonder that you get "batshit insane"? how else could engineers be hold hostage^Wkept^W live in cubicles?
Dec 22 14:46:36 <timtimred> with evil contracts...
Dec 22 14:47:32 <marcb4242> timtimred: how did you get used to: "Java™ Platform, Micro Edition (Java ME) is the most ubiquitous application platform for mobile devices across the globe. It provides a robust, flexible environment for applications running on a broad range of other embedded devices, such as mobile phones, PDAs, TV set-top boxes, and printers. The Java ME platform includes flexible user interfaces, a robust security model, a broad range of built-in
Dec 22 14:47:48 <marcb4242> I get dizzy from reading stuff like that
Dec 22 14:48:17 <timtimred> you dont read that crap you click past it
Dec 22 14:49:22 <marcb4242> I bet they used the dilbert mission statement generator for that..
Dec 22 14:49:39 <timtimred> im at the support end of java anyhoo 
Dec 22 14:50:47 <timtimred> i dont write any 
Dec 22 14:51:13 <marcb4242> Openmoko interactively coordinates cost effective methods of empowerment in order that it may authoritatively supply unique opportunities.
Dec 22 14:51:41 * koen wonders
Dec 22 14:51:54 <marcb4242> http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/games/career/bin/ms.cgi
Dec 22 14:52:00 <koen> cldc building requires setting mandatory env vars to mandatory values
Dec 22 15:00:33 <koen> if FOO *must* be set to 'bar', why do I have to set it?
Dec 22 15:06:38 <jannic> koen: it's a test if you actually read the documentation *g*
Dec 22 15:06:53 <koen> I guess so :)
Dec 22 15:07:59 <CM> Came to think of something.. What about a flight mode?
Dec 22 15:08:03 <CM> Hope there'
Dec 22 15:08:17 <CM> s a way to power on without all radio things on
Dec 22 15:09:02 * koen still thinks flightmode is nonsense
Dec 22 15:09:18 <CM> Of course, but there's no logic in airplane security anyway any more
Dec 22 15:09:21 <koen> airlines provide wifi and hand out mediaplayer, so why can't I turn in my phone?
Dec 22 15:09:30 <koen> turn on*
Dec 22 15:09:38 <CM> Couldn't even take a half-full bottle of water with me yesterday
Dec 22 15:09:51 <CM> But I did have a scissor in my pocket, and they didn't mind that
Dec 22 15:09:53 <CM> Morons
Dec 22 15:10:16 <koen> the tax-free bomb piece was priceless
Dec 22 15:10:21 <CM> Hehe
Dec 22 15:11:56 <CM> I really hope the Neo will be possible to order soon.. That it will be available on schedule
Dec 22 15:14:59 <buz> MIDP flexible? i want some of what they are smoking
Dec 22 15:15:48 <buz> actually you can now use cellphones on emirates flight
Dec 22 15:15:55 <buz> not that people didnt use them before
Dec 22 15:26:42 <CM> I like midp, easy to get some simple things up
Dec 22 15:27:16 <ronny> hi
Dec 22 15:27:39 <ronny> will the phone have a python interpreter ?
Dec 22 15:28:09 <koen> not by default
Dec 22 15:28:22 <koen> but since it's open you can put python on it
Dec 22 15:28:53 <ronny> are there any python sdk's in planing ?
Dec 22 15:29:16 <koen> you mean 'vi'?
Dec 22 15:29:21 <koen> or 'emacs'?
Dec 22 15:30:02 <ronny> i meant python libs for accessing the phone functions
Dec 22 15:32:20 <marcb4242> ronny: most likely in the beginning only C-API
Dec 22 15:33:56 <ronny> hmm
Dec 22 15:34:11 <ronny> are there any aviable distributor lists ?
Dec 22 15:36:11 <marcb4242> ronny: rumour go that mickeyl likes python...
Dec 22 15:37:26 <ronny> sounds good
Dec 22 15:37:29 <timtimred> hissssss
Dec 22 15:37:30 <marcb4242> ~emacs
Dec 22 15:37:31 <apt> well, emacs is as useless as vim if you don't wanna learn it
Dec 22 15:38:19 <ronny> well - and both are useless on a cellphone ;P
Dec 22 15:38:52 <marcb4242> ronny: how else to you want to write a text?
Dec 22 15:39:31 <ronny> well - on a cellphone i will most likely only write small text messages - so a small and simple ui will be enough
Dec 22 15:40:55 <marcb4242> I can only speak for vi as the emacs-operating system still lacks a decent editor - but vi *really* has a small and simple ui :) 
Dec 22 15:40:57 <ronny> casue emacs and vim are just tools for developing - they make no sense on my cellphone, but on my laptop for developing vim is doing a good job
Dec 22 15:42:17 <ronny> i dont want to have a vim for writing a sms
Dec 22 15:44:02 <marcb4242> the ui of the phone will bring more than a full size black terminal :) - there are plenty of text widgets out there.
Dec 22 15:44:47 <ronny> btw - is there some kind os simulator ?
Dec 22 15:44:51 <ronny> *of
Dec 22 15:45:12 <marcb4242> qemu
Dec 22 15:45:32 <koen> gnu
Dec 22 15:45:36 <koen> Xoo
Dec 22 15:46:04 <ronny> its possible to simulate the phone with qemu ?
Dec 22 15:46:20 <koen> define 'phone'
Dec 22 15:46:34 <ronny> OpenMoko
Dec 22 15:46:41 <ronny> thehardware for it
Dec 22 15:46:48 <koen> openmoko is a gui framework
Dec 22 15:46:58 <ronny> only a gui framework ?
Dec 22 15:47:22 <marcb4242> actually I'd call it distribution
Dec 22 15:47:42 <marcb4242> but that's partially a question of definition
Dec 22 15:47:56 <koen> marcb4242: yeah, FIC goes the maemo road by overloading the *moko namespace
Dec 22 15:48:00 <ronny> so let me specify more - any simulation for openmoko on a FIC Neo1973 Smartphone
Dec 22 15:48:10 <koen> ronny: X00
Dec 22 15:48:13 <koen> ehm
Dec 22 15:48:14 <koen> Xoo
Dec 22 15:48:59 <marcb4242> my answer still is qemu ;)
Dec 22 15:49:10 <ronny> thats not an emulator thats a ui for xnest
Dec 22 15:49:18 <koen> and?
Dec 22 15:49:29 <koen> you can run openmoko 'inside' xoo
Dec 22 15:49:33 <koen> what more do you want?
Dec 22 15:49:43 <ronny> well - it will be intresting to take a look on how my new phone will be usable
Dec 22 15:49:57 <koen> which you can do with xoo
Dec 22 15:50:15 <koen> which is what FIC uses as well
Dec 22 15:50:47 <marcb4242> what a huge brick to see it on a 96dpi screen
Dec 22 15:52:21 <ronny> where could i get the sources ?
Dec 22 15:52:46 <koen> openmoko.org
Dec 22 15:52:51 <marcb4242> koen: regarding overloading the namespace: what would you call the distribution then? like OE-based or something?
Dec 22 15:53:24 <koen> marcb4242: it's OE-based, but I'd call it moko-linux or something
Dec 22 15:53:29 <koen> moko-dist
Dec 22 15:54:05 <ronny> koen: it tells me to go to the .com site, and the .com site has no useful information - so mind to tell me a svn/bzr repo, or a tarball url ?
Dec 22 15:54:42 <koen> bzr?
Dec 22 15:54:43 <koen> ewwww
Dec 22 15:55:01 <koen> svn is at svn.openmoko.org
Dec 22 15:55:36 <ronny> koen: well - bzr is only nice if its compared to svn/cvs ;P
Dec 22 15:56:10 <ronny> hmm - svn is access-restricted
Dec 22 15:56:27 <timtimred> mokix :D
Dec 22 16:18:19 <aloril> USB charging is great, with it can have virtually unlimited amount of power, just stock enough of AA batteries: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/
Dec 22 16:34:30 <marcb4242> aloril: nice casing :)
Dec 22 16:38:15 <aloril> hmm.. buy solar charger for NiMH AA batteries (I assume these exists) and you can go for months ;-)
Dec 22 16:49:41 <noidd> ello ello ello
Dec 22 16:49:54 <aloril> (like this: http://www.steves-digicams.com/icp_solar.html )
Dec 22 17:55:12 <mickeyl> Let's call the framework MFX
Dec 22 17:55:25 <mickeyl> or MAF
Dec 22 17:55:32 <koen> MVP
Dec 22 17:55:34 <mickeyl> or openmoko-libs
Dec 22 17:55:39 <mickeyl> nah, _not_ MVP
Dec 22 17:56:33 <koen> openmoko-libs openmoko-gui openmoko-pim?
Dec 22 17:56:51 <mickeyl> openmoko-libs contains libmoko*
Dec 22 17:57:00 <mickeyl> * being core, ui, net, pim
Dec 22 17:57:14 <koen> mickeyl: not everyone spent the last 3 years debating the finer points of frameworks and distros :)
Dec 22 17:57:20 <mickeyl> true
Dec 22 17:57:38 <mickeyl> i'll probably just make it always explicit
Dec 22 17:57:41 <mickeyl> OpenMoko application framework
Dec 22 17:57:46 <mickeyl> OpenMoko Linux distribution
Dec 22 17:57:53 <mickeyl> etc.
Dec 22 17:59:58 * koen is looking for volunteers to clean up openalchemy packaging
Dec 22 18:02:18 <willr> what is openalchemy?
Dec 22 18:02:26 <LaF0rge> hi mickeyl!
Dec 22 18:02:32 <mickeyl> hey LaF0rge
Dec 22 18:02:41 <LaF0rge> willr: http://openalchemy.org/ ;
Dec 22 18:04:00 <LaF0rge> koen: I would love to contribute if I had the time. I'm still fighting some issue building it
Dec 22 18:04:42 <koen> LaF0rge: that's to be expected with the '6 tarballs to rule them all' approach
Dec 22 18:04:44 <LaF0rge> koen: my strategy was: first verify that it builds natively on the host, then check everything into a svn server, then create bb rules/recipes for individual libs/apps based on svn-checkout
Dec 22 18:05:09 <LaF0rge> koen: yes, they are under extreme time constraints at picopeta.  however, I'll help them in 2007 cleaning up that situation
Dec 22 18:05:56 <LaF0rge> If someone creates a clean svn  tree, I'm sure they will accept this and host it on their machine (or point svn.openalchemy.org to e.g. one of my servers)
Dec 22 18:06:09 <LaF0rge> they actually wanted to do that but didn't get around doing it
Dec 22 18:06:30 <LaF0rge> koen: if you run into any problems, just mail to the openalchemy-general list, I'll push it to the right people if there is no response
Dec 22 18:08:20 <koen> I have been wasting time to get phoneme (advanced and feature) to build in OE
Dec 22 18:10:19 <koen> LaF0rge: any plans on attending fosdem?
Dec 22 18:13:37 <LaF0rge> koen: Seems like I'm joining Lennert Buytenheks' boycott of FOSDEM
Dec 22 18:14:01 <LaF0rge> putting a guy in the programme committe who spreads nothing but FUD about embedded linux development and gpl-violations.org is not exactly very friendly
Dec 22 18:14:08 <koen> nope
Dec 22 18:14:15 <koen> hmmm
Dec 22 18:14:42 <LaF0rge> I have heared people quote that guy with stuff like "Harald welte is sueing companies for the fun of it"
Dec 22 18:14:49 <koen> lennert is my beer sponser, so that presents some problems ;)
Dec 22 18:14:58 <mickeyl> too bad. FOSDEM is always a nice experience.
Dec 22 18:15:34 <mickeyl> bbl
Dec 22 18:16:01 <LaF0rge> mickely: I was there some time ago.
Dec 22 18:38:36 <marcb4242> makes me wonder whether the guy spreading fud works for sony, nokia, essenium or montavista?
Dec 22 18:45:43 <koen> mvista
Dec 22 18:46:42 <koen> it's actually quite a nice guy (had dinner with him two weeks ago), but he's known for making such statements
Dec 22 18:46:55 <koen> which are very offensive
Dec 22 18:53:20 <koen> what's the time in taipeh?
Dec 22 18:55:17 <thedaniel> google says 3:22am
Dec 22 19:03:26 <greentux_alt2> cant find program committe on fosdem website... 
Dec 22 19:04:48 * koen directs everyones attention to http://www.access-company.com/downloads/hiker-0.9.tar.gz
Dec 22 19:05:18 <koen> and more specifically libsqlfs inside
Dec 22 19:21:57 <[g2]> koen what is that ?
Dec 22 19:23:00 <[g2]> http://www.access-company.com/news/press/Current/122106_hiker.html
Dec 22 19:25:21 <thedaniel> man, that press release gets the prize for buzzword density
Dec 22 19:27:46 <koen> [g2]: palms' Access Linux Platform stuff
Dec 22 19:28:09 <[g2]> koen yeah that's what it seems like
Dec 22 20:08:09 <greentux_alt2> every day an open source framework... :)
Dec 22 23:25:44 <oppiz> hey
Dec 23 01:26:23 <PirateHead> Hey there. Finally, a phone I can get really excited about!
Dec 23 01:26:39 <PirateHead> I've always been suspicious of Qt. =D
Dec 23 01:30:36 <PirateHead> Is anybody here?
Dec 23 01:34:54 <aevin> yes
Dec 23 01:35:02 <aevin> but we're all asleep :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Dec 23 02:59:56 2006