**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 28 02:59:57 2006 Dec 28 06:28:25 * xkr47 uses his /dev/random and guesses neo will be available on 12 Jan (GMT) ;) Dec 28 06:28:48 (please do not quote me, I'm just joking =) Dec 28 09:22:56 http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadgetmobile/~3/67314252/ interesting idea, using the SD slot for sdio but giving back microsd in it Dec 28 09:36:46 hi Dec 28 09:37:00 is sdio strictly a software feature or does it need some hardware support beyond having the sd slot? Dec 28 09:51:38 buz: You need a sd controller with sdio support... Dec 28 09:52:06 so its a hardware thing? Dec 28 09:52:30 you need sdio capable hardware + sdio software stack Dec 28 09:54:37 perhaps that helps: http://mmc.drzeus.cx/wiki/Controllers/SDHCI Dec 28 09:55:12 nearly every sd controller supports sdio. but there are some different sdio variations. Dec 28 09:55:25 serial and parallel and so on Dec 28 09:55:36 it also matters how much wires they hookup to the slot Dec 28 09:55:41 right Dec 28 09:55:51 and how compatible they would be to old mmc Dec 28 09:56:08 btw: gratulations koen. Dec 28 09:56:17 greentux_alt2: thanks Dec 28 09:57:46 * buz follows with gratulations albeit having no idea for what ;) Dec 28 12:26:23 xkr47: Well, I just wonder where and when one will be able to get one. Seems like a perfect "phone" for me :) Dec 28 12:27:12 yeah.. wonder how many are eager to throw out the default gui and make their own :) Dec 28 12:29:34 Well, I'm eager to put Python onto it to ease developing apps ;) Dec 28 12:30:45 My current setup for remotly entering worktimes involves a Nokia 9500 (commercial and fragile IM+) + Jabber + xchat + xchat modules + apps. Dec 28 12:31:14 That's not funny, but I started out with a completly closed Sidekick => the only interactive service on it was AIM :( Dec 28 12:31:34 I'd like to have ssh with irc open in a part of the screen by the click of a "button" Dec 28 12:32:07 Well, the Nokia 9500 is better than the sidekick (I've got IM+ and putty on it), but developing software for it is to painful. Dec 28 12:32:38 * yacc wonders what they mean by GPRS 2.5G (but no EDGE)? Dec 28 12:32:48 Does that basically mean GPRS? Dec 28 12:33:24 Not that it's much an issue for me. A phone that can double as Ebook reader and chat client is ok. And for chatting GPRS is fine. Dec 28 12:34:41 * yacc wonders if the GSM module will support more esoteric stuff like faxing? Dec 28 12:38:35 sidekick ? Dec 28 12:39:02 xkr47: the phone paris hilton uses Dec 28 12:39:14 heh Dec 28 12:39:43 or was that a hiptop? Dec 28 12:39:50 I always confuse those 2 Dec 28 12:46:05 koen: they are the same thing. Dec 28 12:46:08 koen: Or mostly. Dec 28 12:46:18 Sidekicks are completly closed. Dec 28 12:46:37 So you need a sidekick branded for your cellular network. Dec 28 12:46:55 E.g. one cannot even findout the APN used, nor change it. Dec 28 12:47:23 E.g. in Germany, Eplus sold these as Hiptops, while T-Mobile sold them as Sidekicks. Dec 28 12:48:06 currently, in germany they sell another kind of those phoneputers Dec 28 12:48:20 no idea what their international trade name is, 1and1 does it Dec 28 12:48:27 and they look even more crappy Dec 28 12:48:29 (and closed) Dec 28 12:49:11 I know, and it's fascinating what one can work around. Browser == crappy. Ok, let's enter data via a AIM bot :) Dec 28 12:49:30 you have one? Dec 28 12:49:31 Actually, I've even come up with a crappy IRC<->AIM bridge. Dec 28 12:49:37 xorAxAx: I had one. Dec 28 12:50:01 Then it fell down on the street, and a car drove over it, which the LCD didn't take that well. Dec 28 12:50:06 hehe Dec 28 12:50:25 but i figure that its not very sensible to get one, right? Dec 28 12:50:39 And T-Mobile Austria just told me, well, you have to keep your Sidekick Data option, but we no devices on sale anymore. Bad luck. Dec 28 12:51:23 hehe Dec 28 12:51:26 ah, you had a sidekick Dec 28 12:51:31 not a crappy 1and1 dev Dec 28 12:51:57 T-Mobile (AT) Sidekick II. And it was quite ok, but really really closed. Dec 28 12:52:00 That sucks. Dec 28 12:52:19 http://pocketweb.1und1.de/xml/order/PwHomepage;jsessionid=658141FB5F5DF26B11C869EF9D1CE7C7.TC171a?__rd=ac1704c3Z2RYHQnXEoNGXV8WFJydfwpL&origin[site]=MX.EUE.DE&origin[page]=index&ucuoId=MX.EUE.DE-20061228141943-ac1704c56QTnuKNTqDwuQIqsjX2iW0kK-S1 Dec 28 12:56:35 xorAxAx: Well, actually I live in Austria, OTOH, I work usually in Germany => I've got 2 mobiles ;) Dec 28 12:56:50 E+ UMTS flat in Germany. ;) Dec 28 12:56:57 250MB a month in Austria. Dec 28 12:57:23 yacc: yeah Dec 28 12:57:53 yacc: so do you think that the pocketweb is of any use? Dec 28 13:03:27 nope Dec 28 13:03:53 But the opener the merrier => the 9500 is way nicer than the closed Sidekick was. Dec 28 13:04:05 openmoko sounds still cooler Dec 28 13:35:55 * yacc wonders if the GPRS modem will be upgradeable to support EGRPS (EDGE)? Dec 28 13:37:45 E-GPRS and EDGE should be the same Dec 28 13:37:57 AFAIK it's just multichannel GPRS Dec 28 13:59:43 edge includes e-gprs... Dec 28 14:08:02 koen: I don't think so. Dec 28 14:08:47 koen: The best multislot class of GPRS is 32, which allows active slots at the same time. Dec 28 14:09:07 koen: EGPRS allows for downloads in the 200kbit/s range. Dec 28 14:11:24 koen: 8-20 kbits/s per slot in GPRS, would imply a maximum of 120kbit/s for GPRS (slotclass 32). The more usual are class8 (4 down, 1 up) or class10 (4 down, 2 up). Dec 28 14:15:20 koen: EGPRS is just GPRS with a number of new codings plus a number of other radio tricks. Dec 28 14:16:51 koen: the important thing is, that surfing via GPRS (using my Nokia 9500 and Opera) is working but painful. With EGPRS surfing is good enough to read non-essential stuff. Dec 28 15:21:40 January 2007, that isn't very far off at all :) Is that date up to date? Dec 28 15:25:13 it's still an estimate Dec 28 15:25:21 * koen keeps his fingers crossed Dec 28 15:26:43 :) Think I have looked quite closely, but I havn't really found any place to order it, but I guess that won't be possible before release? Dec 28 15:27:21 you should be able to order it after the release on fic.com.tw Dec 28 15:27:46 although I haven't seen something looking like a webshop there Dec 28 15:29:11 "enter credit card here and click next to continue" Dec 28 15:29:30 "thank you for your credit card number! please note that we didn't ask for a delivery address! sucker!!" Dec 28 15:29:42 ;) Dec 28 15:32:12 I hope it isn't like a standard asian phone Dec 28 15:32:20 with a standbytime of 5 minutes Dec 28 15:56:53 koen: Well, it's a WindowsMobile at heart. Dec 28 15:57:33 which is to say lousy battery life Dec 28 15:57:44 koen: The only person in our family that got coined into buying a WinMobile was my 60-yrs old dad, when he went shopping alone, and he DOES complain about running time. Dec 28 15:58:05 buz: The question is how far we can get the powersaving features working. Dec 28 15:58:39 the main question is the battery itself Dec 28 15:58:45 there are some really shitty batteries out there Dec 28 16:02:25 batteries can be replaced :D Dec 28 16:02:47 theoretically anyway Dec 28 16:57:17 * yacc wonders if it will have Bluetooth, ... Dec 28 16:57:27 And if it will be released in January, ... Dec 28 16:57:43 And if the WindowsMobile based on the same hardware is already released, ... Dec 28 16:58:10 which is the windowsmobile phone? Dec 28 17:01:54 Well, I've heard some rumors that the FIC phone will be sold as a WinMobile in China. Which would give the Linux version benefits of the huge numbers from the start. Dec 28 17:16:50 hm Dec 28 17:18:24 yes, that's what I heard too. Dec 28 17:23:46 Well, that let's one wonder if these WindowsMobiles are already available? Dec 28 17:37:49 bye Dec 28 17:38:41 yacc: I hope not, since the hardware hasn't reached its final rev last I heard Dec 28 17:39:39 the WM and linux teams were (are?) having a race to see who supported all the hw first, though Dec 28 17:39:46 koen: That would suggest that the toys won't be available in two week then? Dec 28 17:39:57 no idea Dec 28 17:40:51 iirc they can produce 30k phones per day in their factories Dec 28 17:41:13 koen: I'd be a nice progression in openness ;) Dec 28 17:42:05 OTOH, it somehow sounds like an Ipaq with a GSM module integrated => which is nice, I used a Linux-based (GPE) Ipaq as an Ebook reader for some time :) Dec 28 17:42:52 I bet ebooks will look sweet on the 280DPI display Dec 28 17:43:15 Well, they look ok on the Nokia. Dec 28 17:43:19 although I would prefer this: http://www.irextechnologies.com/products/iliad Dec 28 17:43:29 * yacc is a bookworm ;) Dec 28 17:44:05 part of reading a book is the feel of paper Dec 28 17:44:10 Nope. Dec 28 17:44:14 and the fact thats an entirely low tech solution Dec 28 17:44:23 buz part of reading a book is being able to read it anywhere anytime ;) Dec 28 17:44:25 my notebook has a 150dpi screen Dec 28 17:44:34 i still despise reading long documents on it Dec 28 17:44:55 buz: I've got my Nokia with me basically anywhere. Carrying even a paperback is painful. Dec 28 17:45:19 the 770 is much too big to carry Dec 28 17:45:28 Considering that I've got 300+ ebooks (from my webscription.net collection) on my 1GB SDcard, it's a no contest thing :) Dec 28 17:45:45 mhh its not like i read more than one book at a time Dec 28 17:45:45 buz: I've got a Nokia 9500 brick. Dec 28 17:45:53 buz: and people still want a full keyboard on the phone.... Dec 28 17:45:56 i was toying with the nokia 9300 Dec 28 17:46:08 but until it gets vibra i aint gonna buy it Dec 28 17:46:18 other than that it would be a fine phone Dec 28 17:46:31 supposedly the e90 gets 800*352 screen even Dec 28 17:46:41 buz:the point is anywhere, anytime. Paperbacks are even bigger bricks then the 9500 Communicator. Dec 28 17:47:02 paperbacks don't need a charger :) Dec 28 17:47:07 but they dont run out of batteries Dec 28 17:47:22 koen: Well, there is the frogpad, IF the phone will have Bluetooth. Dec 28 17:47:49 the frogpad would be a nice toy with the phone Dec 28 17:48:06 buz: Well, the 9500 has the nice side effect, that when it runs out of power, it shut downs the GSM module first, after that I've got 1-2 hours reading without a mobile before it dies completly ;) Dec 28 17:49:34 buz: Additionally, I haven't the storage space to keep my complete collection at home. It sucks driving 100km to my parents-in-law to pick up some book, ... Dec 28 17:50:34 " Dec 28 17:50:34 or you can chose to be 'pragmatic' and use a single piece Dec 28 17:50:34 of non-free software to have that functionalit Dec 28 17:50:37 " Dec 28 17:50:45 hypocrite Dec 28 17:50:56 so non free gps is ok, but non free wlan is not? Dec 28 17:51:02 what kind of twisted logic is that, anyway Dec 28 17:52:42 buz: I think the difference is that the gps doesn't require binary kernel modules Dec 28 17:53:16 yes Dec 28 17:53:30 however, it gets doubly weird when you consider that there are actually open sourced drivers for soem chipsets Dec 28 17:53:36 wlan that is Dec 28 17:53:59 are they free to choose those chipsets? Dec 28 17:54:10 not sure what would stop them? Dec 28 17:54:41 i'm quite sure atmel, realtek and ralink would all sell them Dec 28 17:54:45 contracts, availability, etc Dec 28 17:54:56 which chipsets have actual free drivers? Dec 28 17:55:09 i'm quite positive about ralink Dec 28 17:55:21 might have binary firmware Dec 28 17:55:37 I remember reading somewhere that there basically aren't Dec 28 17:55:53 possibly connected with olpc, who did go the non-free route Dec 28 17:56:02 so_solid_moo: http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/293/ Dec 28 17:56:11 and that it mainly hurts when you care about power consumption / management Dec 28 17:56:17 olpc is using marvell Dec 28 17:56:25 there's source for ralink right on their page Dec 28 17:56:37 i actually have a ralink usb stick somewhere, i should just try to get it to work Dec 28 17:56:44 (right now it's on a mac Dec 28 17:57:09 it may be that you can get it to work, but not access all the power management features etc. Dec 28 17:57:40 wifi sucking power > no wifi at all Dec 28 17:58:20 that's possibly debateable Dec 28 17:58:29 esp. if there is a wifi option better for a winphone Dec 28 17:58:32 if you can deactivate wifi altogether Dec 28 17:58:43 it doesnt really hurt anyone besides some added cost Dec 28 17:59:19 buz: Well, I personally almost never use WLAN on the Nokia. It's somehow a nonstarter for how I use the phone ;) Dec 28 17:59:27 * koen is actually hoping for bluetooth in v1 Dec 28 17:59:36 * buz would prefer wlan over bluetooth Dec 28 18:00:01 I think if it was reasonable to put wifi on it, they would have Dec 28 18:00:25 buz: bluetooth headphones OTOH are a jump in usage quality (I never managed to use wired headphones). Dec 28 18:00:52 buz: And I fear, it will take a long time before I can get a phone-adapter for my Audi or VW? Dec 28 18:01:32 buz: I can get bluetooth connectivity in the my wife's new Passat at least. Dec 28 18:01:32 * koen is also hoping for SIM access profile for the bluetooth Dec 28 18:02:33 koen: Don't get greedy. Dec 28 18:02:37 i never managed to understand why i would want bluetooth headsets Dec 28 18:02:42 yet ANOTHER thing that sucks batteries Dec 28 18:03:42 buz: There are these little things like laws requiring free hand operation in some circumstances (like driving), and wired headsets are just unusable when driving (think seat belt). Dec 28 18:04:04 think garotte Dec 28 18:04:20 there are plenty of wired speak free sets that dont need headsets Dec 28 18:05:28 buz: Yeah, and wired speak free sets. That means in practice that I better have the same mobile my wife has, or I cannot drive her car? Dec 28 18:06:04 buz: Beside these stupid end pieces for the car cost > ?100 each. Dec 28 18:06:17 if you convince my uni to add bluetooth to all wifi access points i'llg ive you that ;) Dec 28 18:06:29 * koen doesn't even own a car Dec 28 18:06:39 bluetooth is not usuable for that it's to short range. Dec 28 18:06:57 * buz neither Dec 28 18:07:16 there's class 2 BT Dec 28 18:07:39 koen: I usually tend to travel by train, but sometimes one has customer in weird places, where a car is required or at least helpful. Dec 28 18:07:41 yacc: amen to that Dec 28 18:07:44 For work I use a car Dec 28 18:08:01 but that's a hidiously old wreck Dec 28 18:08:01 but i hate talking when driving Dec 28 18:08:19 that interferes with listening metal at proper volume Dec 28 18:08:33 koen: Well, my car is an old wreck too. But the car of my wife was even older, so she got a new one, I need to kill my old one first ;) Dec 28 18:09:42 buz: I've noticed that the builtin free speaker in my Audi improves with speed. The voice quality at city speeds is just average, but I had at least on conversation with my wife where she did not notice that I was driving >200km/h ;) Dec 28 18:09:46 yacc: http://img.2dehands.nl/f/normal/14988939_1-opel-combo-1-7-d.jpg but in a bad state Dec 28 18:10:39 koen: I think I cannot compete. Dec 28 18:11:02 we'll get a better car next year Dec 28 18:11:10 * koen crosses fingers Dec 28 18:11:26 koen: I think NNL has even worse taxes on cars than Austria. Dec 28 18:11:43 I think so Dec 28 18:12:29 my boss drives a phaeton, but he lives in germany :) Dec 28 18:12:33 Luckily my tax adviser strongly urged me to register my car not in Austria ;) Dec 28 18:12:47 koen: Well, my wife's new car got german plates too :) Dec 28 18:12:49 theres people who actually buy phaetons? Dec 28 18:13:07 buz: there are no phaetons stations wagons => Dec 28 18:13:12 buz: VW is leasing it as a very low rate Dec 28 18:13:21 s/as/at/ Dec 28 18:13:21 koen meant: buz: VW is leating it as a very low rate Dec 28 18:13:32 apt: you suck Dec 28 18:13:35 no, *you* suck! Dec 28 18:13:37 buz: so these got eliminated, as the car had to be "Golden Retriever compatible" Dec 28 18:13:57 lol Dec 28 18:14:06 i thought golf bag was gold standard for execs Dec 28 18:14:43 buz: I'm not an exec. I'm a poor IT contractor ;( Dec 28 18:15:01 oh right Dec 28 18:15:13 somehow i thought the golden retriever had to fit into the phaeton Dec 28 18:16:17 it had some weird design specs Dec 28 18:17:26 Yes, but in practice Golden Retriever should travel in the trunk => we tend not to take the Retriever with us when traveling my A6, and it's not THAT small either. So station wagon was a must-have-requirement ;) Dec 28 18:18:19 But back to the phone, when will it be available? *wonder* Dec 28 18:18:33 under what name does fic sell winmob phones anyway Dec 28 18:18:34 And will it have pushmail in some way? Dec 28 18:18:57 buz: I've got the impression that they usually send under the brand of the network operator? Dec 28 18:19:08 maybe Dec 28 18:19:23 thats usually the shittiest phones you could get Dec 28 18:19:46 buz: Well, it seems standard for WinMobiles ;) Dec 28 18:20:27 mhh Dec 28 18:20:34 for htc maybe Dec 28 18:20:40 partly anyway Dec 28 18:20:50 palm sells their stuff under their name i think Dec 28 18:21:28 Yes, but palm/handspring are selling nice stuff ;) Dec 28 18:22:12 Although they added a WinMobile to their line I think. Dec 28 18:22:15 i wouldnt really call that nice Dec 28 18:22:21 palmos is hardly suited for a phone Dec 28 18:22:29 and the winmob phones are hardly a match for htc Dec 28 18:22:50 essentially, palm is still selling the very first treo Dec 28 18:23:56 Well, they are acceptable phones and Palms in one. Well, my last one was the Treo270, and that's some time back, ... Dec 28 18:34:56 Will neo 1973 be available all over the world or just the us and asia (saw sales@ e-mail addresses for those two only)? Dec 28 18:40:27 * sannes is probably just worrying too much :P Dec 28 18:40:50 all over the world Dec 28 18:57:49 Well, will it be legal to operate all-over-the-world? *wonder* Dec 28 18:58:02 should be Dec 28 18:58:14 ofcourse the fcc might take a weird stance Dec 28 18:58:22 but i dont care for the fcc ver ymuch Dec 28 19:56:55 have you seen/clear Dec 28 19:56:59 mt ;_) Dec 28 20:06:54 buz: Well, I was thinking more along the lines of needed certifications for Europe ;) Dec 28 20:07:39 afaik, the gsm module itself is precertified Dec 28 20:08:01 and since it is mostly autonomous it should work Dec 28 20:08:01 without recertification i mean **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Dec 29 02:59:59 2006