**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 29 02:59:59 2006 Dec 29 10:26:55 OMG!!! Java!!!! Dec 29 10:27:00 LOL!!!! Dec 29 10:34:46 * Kero prefers Ruby :P Dec 29 10:43:56 you know his tubes must have been clogged by all the filthy things on the net Dec 29 10:44:23 why any programming language at all really, what do you think 0 and 1 are for.. doooh :D Dec 29 11:08:12 koen, how come the sudden outburst ?-) you read the scrollback ?-) Dec 29 11:08:50 no Dec 29 11:08:57 I just read a mail on the mailinglist Dec 29 11:09:14 "And it has started GPLizing from the J2ME. Dec 29 11:09:14 So, for everyone interested it should be easy to compile it for the OpenMoko." Dec 29 11:09:43 which tranlates to "OMG!!! Java!!! LOL!!!!" Dec 29 11:10:10 * koen points everyone mentioning java to http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000884.html Dec 29 11:18:02 :) Dec 29 11:19:39 oh my, are the .bb files gentoo-alike or what :) Dec 29 11:20:57 why java or ruby ... I want lisp! Dec 29 11:21:09 in a deep dark past OE was portage based Dec 29 11:21:19 but that was fixed long ago :) Dec 29 11:22:19 I'm quite new to this, what is OE ? Open Embedded? (guessing wildly) Dec 29 11:22:46 sannes: correct Dec 29 11:22:58 ~OE Dec 29 11:23:02 rumour has it, oe is OpenEmbedded (see http://www.openembedded.org ), or "Opportunistic Encryption" (see http://www.wavesec.org ), or an email client which is not to be spoken of. Dec 29 11:24:48 ~BP Dec 29 11:24:49 methinks bp is pb backwards Dec 29 11:26:02 ~java Dec 29 11:26:04 hmm... java is at (Link: http://www.blackdown.org)http://www.blackdown.org or at (Link: http://www.javasoft.com)http://www.javasoft.com or at (Link: http://www.savaje.com)http://www.savaje.com or at (Link: http://www.pocketlinux.com)http://www.pocketlinux.com or at (Link: http://java.sun.com)http://java.sun.com or at http://www.insignia.com, or see the "mpkg-j2se" ... Dec 29 11:27:02 ~lisp Dec 29 11:27:03 [lisp] a theory that unexpectedly became a programming language http://paulgraham.com/icad.html Dec 29 11:27:14 ~enough Dec 29 11:27:15 Well, have you had enough fun fondling with my database Dec 29 11:27:17 nice definition Dec 29 11:28:12 ~botsnack Dec 29 11:28:12 koen: thanks Dec 29 11:28:33 What does BP mean in http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000892.html ? Dec 29 11:28:52 Baseband Processor Dec 29 11:29:03 the thing the gsm stack runs on Dec 29 11:30:36 ah :) Dec 29 11:30:55 and AP is application processor Dec 29 11:31:05 where the gui runs on Dec 29 11:31:21 on the neo1973 the AP and BP communicate over a serial line Dec 29 11:32:20 so it boots off the AP then I presume? Dec 29 11:34:16 sort off Dec 29 11:34:29 it's like 2 seperate computers with a nullmodem cable Dec 29 11:35:04 From what I've seen on the list and here, it hasn't been decided yet if there is going to be BT on the first revision of neo1973 .. but they say that it is probably going to be out in January, .. does that mean the hardware isn't really ready yet and there will be lots of delays? Dec 29 11:35:50 koen: so they can't interrupt eachother or rather they can ignore interrupts from their serial line .. Dec 29 11:35:54 It seems that they have some bugs in the bluetooth hardware and haven't decided whether to enable it or not Dec 29 11:37:04 they could keep it disabled per default and let other people enable it easily, that would have been nice .. if you can work around the bugs you can use bluetooth if not .. it was never really there.. :P Dec 29 11:38:45 I'm getting it either way though .. I have waited for something like this for a long time :P Dec 29 13:08:56 ~seen [g2] Dec 29 13:09:25 [g2] was last seen on IRC in channel #nslu2-linux, 11h 4m 52s ago, saying: 'rwhitby optware looks like it's building crosstool and the old 2.4.22 kernel '. Dec 29 15:45:20 hi Dec 29 15:45:29 what is this project please ? Dec 29 15:47:31 see url in topic; a Linux-based smartphone OS for, among the first, the Neo smartphone due in January Dec 29 15:52:49 see topic Dec 29 16:02:12 does anyone here have a engineering sample of the Neo ? Dec 29 16:03:02 chihchun: FIC does have ;) Dec 29 16:04:02 gamin: ha Dec 29 16:05:10 shouldn't be too long now before we can all get our "samples" Dec 29 16:14:13 gamin: at least we hope that they do Dec 29 18:09:25 Still no date when the phones will be available, ... Dec 29 18:11:57 not in jan., lets make up a bet Dec 29 18:12:36 not taking preorders seems downright stupid Dec 29 18:12:39 thats like free money Dec 29 18:14:16 you need an infrastructure for that Dec 29 18:14:21 i still havent found it :) Dec 29 18:14:36 its more than dispatching parcels Dec 29 18:14:44 companies generally have infrastructure for taking payments Dec 29 18:14:53 its more than taking payments Dec 29 18:14:59 preorders? Dec 29 18:15:02 not much more really Dec 29 18:15:40 dont forget requests for payment or complaints Dec 29 18:15:45 heck you could even outsource it trivially Dec 29 18:16:19 but the product/development costs might rise, and need compensating for ;) Dec 29 18:16:20 yes, they dont seem to have such a partnership besides normal complainthandling for broken hardware (with labs) Dec 29 18:16:33 the fact that we cant preorder doesnt really bode well for a january release in my view Dec 29 18:17:16 does fic actually sell phones these days Dec 29 18:18:01 looks like it Dec 29 18:18:52 Well, it's not January yet. Dec 29 18:18:53 ;) Dec 29 18:19:15 buz: hmm, they do? Dec 29 18:19:20 http://www.fic.com.tw/product/mbp.htm Dec 29 18:19:20 b2c? Dec 29 18:19:28 dont think b2c Dec 29 18:19:34 exactly, thats the point :) Dec 29 18:19:41 but one even has a cam ;) Dec 29 18:21:07 buz: cams as such are not really a feature. Good cams are a feature. Dec 29 18:21:15 thats true Dec 29 18:21:19 and they are hard Dec 29 18:21:22 witness htc Dec 29 18:21:39 i'd say only sony and nokia actually have good cams Dec 29 18:21:57 and loads of the sony ones suck too. Dec 29 18:22:07 yeah but they have a few good ones Dec 29 18:22:08 the k800i one is much better though Dec 29 18:22:19 the n95 one is supposedly superb Dec 29 18:22:21 by orders of magnitude Dec 29 18:22:42 then again, n95 will likely retail at 900USD or so Dec 29 18:23:10 doh. my k800i was free with the yearly contract Dec 29 18:23:28 that must be one expensive contract Dec 29 18:23:57 mid range one. Dec 29 18:24:09 the k800 is quite expensive on its own Dec 29 18:24:59 well £30 a month buys all my calls and gets me a new handset every year Dec 29 18:25:15 i'd call 30£ quite expensive ;) Dec 29 18:25:25 20 EUR? Dec 29 18:25:34 more like 40 Dec 29 18:25:45 hmm, right Dec 29 18:25:54 confusing chf and lbp Dec 29 18:26:04 gbp Dec 29 18:26:22 kinda. but then the handset would be £300 new probably. Dec 29 18:26:26 flatrate? Dec 29 18:26:33 something in that area yes Dec 29 18:27:26 i generally prefer to pay for my phones myself Dec 29 18:27:58 i sell my year old phones on every year on ebay hehe Dec 29 18:28:01 * xorAxAx just doesnt have enough connections to start monthly plans Dec 29 18:28:08 asus p535 has a good cam too. Dec 29 18:28:24 really? wouldnt have thought there are winmobile phones with good cams Dec 29 18:29:08 the cam of p535 is the best one I have saw. Dec 29 18:29:16 in winmobile phones. Dec 29 18:29:25 thats not saying much ;= Dec 29 18:29:26 ) Dec 29 18:29:36 the one eyed is king of the blind people after all Dec 29 18:30:20 the cam has a AF function and 2m pixels cmos Dec 29 18:31:12 I almost have every winmobile devices manufactured by Taiwanese company. Dec 29 18:31:22 why Dec 29 18:31:44 I work for a software company which do software for mobile phones. Dec 29 18:31:48 ah ok Dec 29 18:31:52 must be quite a lot Dec 29 18:32:00 considering htc is taiwanese Dec 29 18:32:33 almost every handset manufacturing companies have winmobile products. Dec 29 18:33:05 except nokia i believe Dec 29 18:33:09 I have SE k750i and fic phone will be 2nd class one Dec 29 18:33:31 but most of them are using cheap camera components. Dec 29 18:33:36 im looking to replace my half dead SE p900 really Dec 29 18:34:02 might still get suckered into buying some nokia e series thoug Dec 29 18:35:45 I want a phone that I can do my own os and software from scratch. Dec 29 18:36:13 the neo is perfect for that Dec 29 18:36:35 yes, and it's full gpl. :D Dec 29 18:43:22 ~change 30 gbp to eur Dec 29 18:43:27 30.00 Pound (GBP) makes 44.5114 Euro (EUR) (from http://www.xe.com/) Dec 29 18:44:14 chihchun: only problem currently => it' not yet available. Dec 29 18:44:27 yacc: ha Dec 29 18:45:00 * yacc hope that his 9500 will survive till the Neo becomes available ;) Dec 29 18:50:57 yacc: my treo 650 is near death too. It loses charge in about 6 hours :-P Dec 29 18:52:14 Well, my Treo 270 died over an year ago => the SIM card holder stopped working => no SIM => it turned into an Ebook reader for some time, and then got trashed ;) Dec 29 19:31:24 * yacc wonders if anyone from FIC is listening(reading) here, and if whining will help ;) Dec 29 20:35:21 yacc, it never hurts to try... :) Dec 29 21:15:07 hello Dec 29 21:15:29 does anyone know how can I buy the Neo1973 phone when it becomes available in January? Dec 29 21:15:39 directly from fic Dec 29 21:16:03 stupid bot Dec 29 21:16:49 get a chan op to chat to chanserv :) Dec 29 21:16:54 buz: thanks, will they deliver overseas?, I'm in Venezuela Dec 29 21:16:58 as it's got topic protection on Dec 29 21:17:29 jpierre: they should Dec 29 21:18:38 hrw: thanks, I'm an open source advocate here and I plan to get one unit for testing and then get about half a dozen for LUG VIPs here Dec 29 21:19:05 jpierre: I'm waiting for developer discount Dec 29 21:19:21 hrw: :-) it's not too expensive though Dec 29 21:20:08 jpierre: depends how much you earn each month Dec 29 21:20:35 hrw: of course Dec 29 21:20:43 hrw: where are you living? Dec 29 21:20:49 Poland, Europe Dec 29 21:21:28 hrw: is that a developing country? Dec 29 21:22:40 jpierre: I'm one of core OpenEmbedded developers. FIC phone software comes from this environment. Dec 29 21:23:17 hrw: cool!, so basically you are one of the people who started all this Dec 29 21:23:46 OE? Dec 29 21:23:55 "hrw: is that a developing country?" is a funny question :) Dec 29 21:24:15 hrw: the OpenMoko platform Dec 29 21:24:34 jpierre: no. I do not have anything common with OpenMoko platform (yet) Dec 29 21:24:43 xorAxAx: don't know about Poland much Dec 29 21:27:19 hrw: I see Dec 29 21:32:43 jpierre: Poland is one of the new member states of the EU, but AFAIK (I'm not that often in Poland I admit), people tend still to earn less than in most "old" EU members. Dec 29 21:33:29 yacc: so people still earn less than in, let's say: Spain or Italy, that's bad enough Dec 29 21:35:06 jpierre: guess so. Dec 29 21:35:33 jpierre: But it seems to depend strongly on personal circumstances and the location inside Poland. Dec 29 21:36:50 yacc: I asked because I live in Venezuela, which is pretty much underdeveloped, and the Neo1973 doesn't seem too expensive to me, I guessed anyone in Europe could do better than I could here Dec 29 21:37:10 Hi Dec 29 21:37:42 E.g. we (the customer I'm working for) had a software developer that was bragging that he earns so much. (Eastern Poland, USD2K/month). I know enough people in Poland (southern and central), that earn way more and partially even more than me. Dec 29 21:37:53 I just wanna do a question Dec 29 21:38:21 If any one can answer me, I'll be glad Dec 29 21:38:51 An invasion from Venezuela? Dec 29 21:39:01 yacc: I see, it's about the same as in Spain, a little better than most people here Dec 29 21:39:23 jpierre: Well, the question is on which end of the spectrum are you located? Dec 29 21:39:26 yacc: LOL, that's a friend of mine, another Linux sysadmin and open source advocate Dec 29 21:40:14 well, Looking the OpenMoko I think that maybe, the distro used by it, cam be changed to do a replace to the WinMobile that use my HTC6700 APACHE and finally forget the Hasefroch Dec 29 21:40:41 yacc: sure, it's about the same here, if you're in the low end you get to earn less than 500 USD a month Dec 29 21:40:43 rolando-ve: Don't think so. Not without loosing much much functionality and supported hardware. Dec 29 21:40:57 rolando-ve: there are people which work on Linux for HTC phones. Some of them will work on getting openmoko running on them Dec 29 21:41:11 There is Linux for HTC phones? Dec 29 21:41:19 rolando-ve: but do not know when HTC phones will be phones under linux Dec 29 21:41:23 yacc: yes Dec 29 21:41:25 But the project is not running :( Dec 29 21:41:41 hrw: nice thing the OpenMoko platform could be ported like any other Linux platform, the problem will be to adapt it to the different resolutions and input methods of the different devices Dec 29 21:42:03 Well then I need to send my HTC in eBay :P Dec 29 21:42:06 jpierre: ported? compiled rather Dec 29 21:42:10 hrw: url? googling for HTC smartphone linux gives only reports about the FIC one ;) Dec 29 21:42:17 send=sell Dec 29 21:42:33 yacc: handhelds.org -> wiki -> supported summary -> htc Dec 29 21:42:35 rolando-ve: currently, the OpenMoko platform doesn't run on your phone Dec 29 21:43:24 hrw: I've been payed quite well to port some "simple" C programs (actually CGI scripts in C) from HP-UX to Linux. And it was hard work :( Dec 29 21:43:45 Thanks Jpierre ;) Dec 29 21:43:51 hrw: I mean porting it to run on other phones, it could mean a little more work than just compiling it, I think Dec 29 21:44:00 sure Dec 29 21:44:38 yacc: I could think that porting this little programs wouldn't be so hard between these two very similar platforms Dec 29 21:45:03 jpierre: Well, nice portable C code: if (*x && x) ... Dec 29 21:45:05 yacc: but I'm no C programmer :-P Dec 29 21:45:20 yacc: I only know a little bit of C programming Dec 29 21:45:38 Works like a charm on HPUX (which has a mapped null page containing \000 ;) Dec 29 21:45:41 yacc: haha, wrong way around :) Dec 29 21:45:58 hey, good idea, to have it like that :) Dec 29 21:46:01 yacc: that line doesn't look nice at all Dec 29 21:46:08 no more null pointer derefs Dec 29 21:46:30 Let's say, the inhouse developers of this very security sensitive piece of sh*t had problems understanding sensible C practice. Dec 29 21:47:08 yacc: sure, monkeys at the keyboard Dec 29 21:47:48 E.g. putting booleans into a bitmap struct, and than doing pointer casting to compare it with different integer values to check for certain boolean combinations. Very good, very portable, even better for my personal income ;) Dec 29 21:48:29 When I found it the first time, the explanation was it is "legacy code". So I explained the problems, and 3 months, I found the same bug in a completly fresh module, ... Dec 29 21:50:29 yacc: minds tend to change very slowly if at all Dec 29 21:51:44 jpierre: yes. Considering that this small C CGI program was protecting the extremly "trusting" and "weak" MS-based innards of one of the bigger banks here around, ... Dec 29 21:52:43 yacc: another reason to make it cleaner Dec 29 21:54:32 jpierre: wrong. Better idea: lower the invested capital into that small helper (the backend developers complain about the limitations anyway), and increase the bonuses for the board, everybody is happy. Well, at least till some bad guys figure the system out. ;) Dec 29 21:55:54 hehehe, that reminds me of a Dilbert chapter, where he finds a vulnerability in the system, and the boss tells him to fix it, he didn't know how to fix it, and the boss insists, so immediately he answers: "gone!, it's fixed!" Dec 29 21:56:26 the boss smiles and says: "much better" Dec 29 21:57:31 jpierre: scariest bugs are those that fix themselves... Dec 29 21:58:52 jpierre: you have no idea what caused them, or what changed to make no longer break... talk about risk Dec 29 21:58:56 Stephmw: :-) but Dilbert didn't fixed anything, he was talking to his boss in the alley with no computer nearby, he just said it was fixed, his boss did know it wasn't, he just wanted to hear that there was no problem Dec 29 21:59:16 * Stephmw nods sadly Dec 29 22:00:10 Stephmw: just close your eyes and repeat after me: "everything is fine, perfectly fine" :-) Dec 29 22:00:43 jpierre: lol Dec 29 22:00:52 jpierre: it's bad enough to be responsible for regressions Dec 29 22:01:03 jpierre: praying at the Code Altar is just asking for trouble Dec 29 22:01:26 your supposed to make sacrifices on said altar. Dec 29 22:01:50 Stephmw: I'm no developer, just a sysadmin, I deal with security issues all the time Dec 29 22:01:57 timtimred: ;-D Dec 29 22:02:03 timtimred: I have! 3 doughnuts per month :) Dec 29 22:02:37 jpierre: I'm a dev - I deal with the fallout of security errors and otherwise Dec 29 22:02:59 im in limbo between dev and sysadmin jobs :D Dec 29 22:03:08 Stephmw: yeah, when I find a problem, your head rolls Dec 29 22:03:32 timtimred: I started out as a sys/netadmin Dec 29 22:03:47 timtimred: now thinking that ending up in embedded dev wasn't such a hot idea Dec 29 22:03:52 jpierre: haha Dec 29 22:03:57 i was a sysadmin, then a dev, now a sysadmin again. Dec 29 22:04:15 oh yeah i might have been a dev originally too. Dec 29 22:04:24 Stephmw: LOL :-P Dec 29 22:04:26 jpierre: well, I dunno about rolling, all fixes I do have a risk assessment - the products decide if the risk of the fix outweighs the risk of the error Dec 29 22:04:51 Stephmw: then you do it the Zen way Dec 29 22:05:02 jpierre: aye - whatever shit happens, I ain't to blame :) Dec 29 22:05:11 does anyone know if there's already an effort to port OpenMoko to existing phones Dec 29 22:05:11 jpierre: contractors call it... Teflon shoulders Dec 29 22:05:28 Stephmw: everything slips Dec 29 22:05:52 jpierre: that's the call of the next contract :) Dec 29 22:06:15 hehehe Dec 29 22:06:40 so there's no effort currently to do it Dec 29 22:06:59 but seriously enough, I think I'll stay with embedded as a hobby, and go back to desktop dev for a living Dec 29 22:07:15 jpierre: afaik the full soft or sdk isn't out yet, so no Dec 29 22:07:25 there are many PocketPC phones out there with Windows, it would be nice if they could run OpenMoko Dec 29 22:07:49 Stephmw: haven't you already jumped to Web 2.0 dev? Dec 29 22:08:09 jpierre: naaaw, I'm too specialised atm - need to retrain a bit Dec 29 22:08:29 jpierre: OpenMoko is just a "platform", it seems there are some HTC mobiles where GPE works ok. Dec 29 22:08:50 Stephmw: that's the way of our lives, today we build a car, tomorrow a space shuttle and the next week a jet engine Dec 29 22:09:10 yacc: GPE? Dec 29 22:11:02 The GTK based handheld environement that is part of OpenMoko too. Dec 29 22:14:20 yacc: nice Dec 29 22:15:46 I've been using it some years back on an IPAQ. Seems like some of the HTC handhelds are nearing "enduser compatibility" under Linux ;) Dec 29 22:16:39 yacc: "enduser compatibility" LOL Dec 29 22:17:07 that's from the Lord or Ward movie Dec 29 22:18:38 jpierre: "enduser compatibility" => you can give it to a non-hacker, and they can use it place a phone call without typing "cryptic Unix commands" ;) Dec 29 22:19:32 yacc: hehehe, sounds good Dec 29 22:23:58 * yacc whines, when will they start to ship the things? Dec 29 22:32:47 jpierre: hijo!!! tais vivo??? Dec 29 22:33:04 jpierre: o en Pto. Fijo??? Dec 29 22:33:05 B3ll4: ¿cómo estás corazón? Dec 29 22:33:11 B3ll4: estoy en Caracas Dec 29 22:33:15 Muy bien y tu? Dec 29 22:33:22 yacc: trully and invasion from Venezuela :-) Dec 29 22:33:22 Ah, Okey xD Dec 29 22:33:28 LOL Dec 29 22:33:36 yacc: trully an invasion from Venezuela :-) Dec 29 22:33:45 LOL @ jpierre Dec 29 22:33:47 B3ll4: ¿cómo está todo?, ¿dónde andas metida? Dec 29 22:34:04 esden: cześć Dec 29 22:34:19 jpierre: yo? en casa, posteando y husmeando por la red xD Dec 29 22:34:26 if you guys speak Snapish then we will start Polish ;D Dec 29 22:34:31 hrw: czesc ;) Dec 29 22:34:43 hrw: :-P Dec 29 22:34:57 esden: what bring you here? Dec 29 22:34:58 B3ll4: are you wating to get your moco? Dec 29 22:35:27 jpierre: pues si, de pana quisiera saber si llegarán a Venezuela :$ Dec 29 22:35:40 B3ll4: maybe we can buy a few in one shipment so we spend less Dec 29 22:35:46 ohh .. openmoko of course ... ;) I read some time ago about this project and am following the ongoings from the beginning ... Dec 29 22:36:05 esden: user or developer? Dec 29 22:36:08 B3ll4: I asked before if they would ship to Venezuela, and most likely they will Dec 29 22:36:26 jpierre: Ah! claro, me imagine... Dec 29 22:36:47 hrw: I am a developer ... I am writing software for embedded systems myself ... sadly with closed tools for closed systems ... that is why openmoko is even more interesting to me Dec 29 22:36:49 hrw: and you? Dec 29 22:37:31 B3ll4: it will be sold directly from FIC, they are in Taiwan so I don't think they will restrict shipments to the US and/or Europe Dec 29 22:37:43 esden: I'm one of core devels in OpenEmbedded project which is used as base for OpenMoko thing Dec 29 22:37:52 esden: http://www.hrw.one.pl/ Dec 29 22:39:19 hrw: wow amazing ... good to know that someone from poland is working on cool projects like this. It is not very often that I meed polish people in the open source scene. Dec 29 22:39:45 hrw: the reason may also be that I am not living in poland at the moment Dec 29 22:40:32 esden: emigrated into UE? Dec 29 22:41:43 ok time to sleep Dec 29 22:41:49 hrw: humm ... not the last emigration wave Dec 29 22:41:55 HNY to all Dec 29 22:42:03 hrw: moved with my father ... Dec 29 22:42:10 hrw: sleep well Dec 29 22:42:14 esden: you've got a TPnet ADSL address? Dec 29 22:42:21 esden: Where to? Dec 29 22:42:47 yacc: visiting my grandmother for holydays ;) Dec 29 22:42:49 yacc: probably account on such machine Dec 29 22:42:59 yacc: I'm not living in .nl Dec 29 22:43:16 hrw: Well, one usually does not use DSL boxes as bouncers ;) Dec 29 22:43:32 yacc: misc things people do Dec 29 22:43:33 cu Dec 29 22:43:34 yacc: I know people that do Dec 29 22:44:03 esden: I said "usually" ;) Dec 29 22:44:17 yacc: sure ... I know ;) Dec 29 22:44:23 But where do you live now? Dec 29 22:44:40 * yacc ended up in Austria/Germany ;) Dec 29 22:44:47 yacc: the people that do such things are strange ones ... (/me knows many strange people ;) ) Dec 29 22:45:25 esden: I think my IRC setup is way stranger than the things your friends do. Dec 29 22:45:26 yacc: I live in Germany at the moment. Finishing my computer science diploma and working. Dec 29 22:45:48 jpierre: huummm... bueno en la pagina leí algún tipo de contactos con ésta gente y venía de Asia y Estados Unidos, entonces pensé que iban a comenzar a venderlo por allá Dec 29 22:46:04 (hint: ctrl-proxy + 1-2 xchats + self-written bridge to Jabber + IM+/Nokia9500) Dec 29 22:46:10 yacc: like making two openvpn tunnels home then from home to a remote machine over ssh and running irssi in a screen there? Dec 29 22:46:11 LOL, jpierre ves? ya llegó carlitos-ve Dec 29 22:46:12 ;) Dec 29 22:46:12 esden: where in Germany? Dec 29 22:46:38 hello people Dec 29 22:46:46 yacc: Rosenheim/Munich/Ingolstadt ... depending on date and time ;) Dec 29 22:47:04 i wanna a cellphone with linux Dec 29 22:47:20 esden: I've got one xchat running in a VNC session on my colocated box, which does the Jabber bridging, and when at the Laptop use one xchat directly ;) Dec 29 22:47:33 carlitos-ve: We all want such a thing ;) Dec 29 22:47:39 yacc: also a nice setup Dec 29 22:48:08 ;) Dec 29 22:49:06 esden: Well, it was forced on me, because I had a Sidekick => AIM was the only interactive application on these => so I used an xchat2aim bridge ;) Dec 29 22:49:07 I normally run irssi on a server inside a screen and connect there with ssh or even with ssh over openvpn ... but because I wanted notification I now use Colloquy directly on my mac Dec 29 22:49:31 see ya people Dec 29 22:49:46 yacc: was the sidekick also forced on you? Dec 29 22:49:46 irssi does have a nice proxy support, which should allow you to connect a "second" desktop irc client to it. Dec 29 22:50:06 esden: Well, it was the only "internet" device in Austria at the time that had a "flatrate" :( Dec 29 22:50:43 And forced is not completly wrong, technically speaking, my wife directed us to the shop back then ;) Dec 29 22:50:50 yacc: yes I know but I never had the motivation to finally test this irssi proxy stuff Dec 29 22:51:06 yacc: so your wife is guilty? ;) Dec 29 22:51:30 Well, yes and no. My wife + "my dislike for non-flat packages"? Dec 29 22:51:53 nowadays, I know that the 250MB/month package (in Austria) is enough for my usage. Dec 29 22:52:20 I see Dec 29 22:53:00 I do not have an online flat for my phone ... I never needed it ... everywhere I am I have wlan or hardwired internet connectivity Dec 29 22:53:16 and my macbook is also always with me ... Dec 29 22:53:39 neven needed connectivity with my phone beside normal telephony and sms Dec 29 22:54:11 but I can imagine that an openmoko based phone may alter my requirements ;) Dec 29 22:54:35 the future will show Dec 29 22:54:37 esden: I've got a nice admin/dev job, where monitoring boxes is part of the deal :( Dec 29 22:55:31 yacc: sure I understand, I thought that it will be something like that Dec 29 22:56:18 Actually, when I travel it's nice to be able to chat with my wife => it's usually easier to chat than to talk voice in some office. Dec 29 22:56:44 sure it is ... you use t9 or something for input? Dec 29 22:56:45 Nobody notices when one chats, especially on the "official" PC, but everyone notices when one goes go for a phone call ;) Dec 29 22:56:55 esden: 9500 ;) Dec 29 22:57:01 ahh right Dec 29 22:57:19 With the 9500 even putty is somehow acceptable. Dec 29 22:57:42 what? ... ROFL ... very nice Dec 29 22:57:46 The hardest thing is the latency. You have to have seen it once for yourself, before one believes it. Dec 29 22:58:33 So GPRS/UMTS (HSDPA is reported to be better) are all poor substitutes for a DSL line :( Dec 29 22:58:39 what is the latency? ... how many seconds? Dec 29 22:59:36 Let's say, with E+ in Munich, I've managed low latency last Autumn of say 400ms. More normal was ping roundtimes >1s Dec 29 23:00:45 Actually, the E70 is a surprisingly usable Putty terminal. Dec 29 23:01:02 humm ... ok ... that is an acceptable latency Dec 29 23:01:29 The screen is big enough to fit a fair amount of text and with 3G the latency is quite acceptable. Dec 29 23:01:42 I hate it when latency goes up above 1s ... I had that at the time I had to use modem to connect to the internet when I was visiting my grandma Dec 29 23:02:17 but it was more like 10s or more Dec 29 23:02:40 with a modem, you usually have 120 ms Dec 29 23:02:43 I typed what I wanted pressed enter ... and went to get something to drink or eat, waiting for the result Dec 29 23:03:15 xorAxAx: not with the polish network infrastructure 5 years ago Dec 29 23:03:21 esden: a pity Dec 29 23:03:28 esden: My highest where more than 60s latency. Dec 29 23:03:36 6 years ago in germany, it was perfectly possible Dec 29 23:03:40 yacc: without retransmissions? Dec 29 23:03:47 esden: And it's not funny if you need to work on a ppp-over-ssh VPN. Dec 29 23:03:48 ICMP latency? Dec 29 23:03:52 how should htat work? Dec 29 23:04:00 yacc: full ACK Dec 29 23:04:04 xorAxAx: ICMP => ping did report that. Dec 29 23:04:10 i claim that its not possible on tcp->ppp->line Dec 29 23:04:19 vpn is something different Dec 29 23:04:45 xorAxAx: I said GPRS/UMTS ;) Dec 29 23:04:54 see ya!!! Dec 29 23:04:57 hehe ... I should have write down my latency charts ... Dec 29 23:05:07 I really would lough these days about it ;) Dec 29 23:05:10 yacc: ah,ok Dec 29 23:08:46 yacc: and what is your role here at openmoko? spectator? core developer? Dec 29 23:10:23 esden: interested buyer. I'd like a phone where I can EASILY develop for. Dec 29 23:10:46 esden: Currently I'm doing reports and data entry via a xchat module that interfaces with the back office. Dec 29 23:12:08 yacc: ahh ok ... that is pretty much the same thing I am interested in ... I mean a phone that I can bend to my needs coding my own solutions for it Dec 29 23:12:57 yacc: or bend to the needs of some other people ... like my family members that need different things from phones ... Dec 29 23:13:14 yacc: I see needs that no phones that are out there fulfill ... Dec 29 23:13:59 Yes. In theory the 9500 should be ok, but coding for Series 80s phones on Linux is a PITA. Dec 29 23:14:05 for example a phone that is easy to use for my grandma ... with big buttons ... I saw something like that but it was obscure and really expensive and difficult to get Dec 29 23:15:47 Well, I'd like to have pushmail somehow, and if that's not an option, at least a mailer that can check on it's own AND when asked (the Nokia can either check automatically in the background or when asked, but not both :( ) Dec 29 23:16:39 yacc: yes that sucks ... Dec 29 23:17:08 yacc: humm ... a friend of mine has a Motorola A780 ... it is also codable ... but it is no real fun Dec 29 23:17:12 And it seems to break down with IMAP with folder with more than 2500 messages or so. Dec 29 23:17:25 yacc: it is damn difficult to change something without breaking the whole thing Dec 29 23:18:12 yacc: humm ... I think that really depends on the bandwidth ... Dec 29 23:18:35 yacc: AFAIK IMAP is syncing always the whole headerlists ... Dec 29 23:18:52 yacc: that means that the more mails are there in your mailbox it will take longer to sync? Dec 29 23:18:58 yacc: or did I miss something? Dec 29 23:19:01 esden: I don't think so, although I might try it over WLAN. I've got EGPRS for it, and it shouldn't be an issue with that. Dec 29 23:19:16 yacc: you may be right Dec 29 23:19:44 esden: Well, it's not completly linear. It just tends to drop the autosyncing mode with more than say 2k messages in the inbox. Dec 29 23:20:38 ahh .. ok ... then it seems to be a bug in the implementation... does it? Dec 29 23:21:24 Might be. What do I know? *g* Dec 29 23:21:40 The mailer sucks for such huge inboxes UI-wise anyway. Dec 29 23:22:16 I see .. then I know what you will code for the neo first ;) Dec 29 23:22:25 a good mail client ;) Dec 29 23:22:52 what sucks is that imap protocol is such a mess to implement >_< Dec 29 23:36:21 esden: Well, it's not that bad, it's just that one should use the right tools for stuff like that. Dec 29 23:47:34 esden: Let's say I'm not the biggest fan of writing stuff in C I admit ;) Dec 29 23:47:49 hehe ... ok .. ;) Dec 29 23:47:54 esden: sometimes it's unavoidable, but usually it's just lost developer time. Dec 29 23:47:59 I would also not write that stuff in C I think Dec 29 23:48:39 yacc: I currently write everything that I write for embedded systems in C Dec 29 23:49:02 Especially, as my favorite "P" can beat even C++ for lowlevel binary data import, if done right ;) Dec 29 23:49:41 hehe ... Dec 29 23:50:20 my life goal is to bring something considered more obscure to the embedded world ... ;) Dec 29 23:50:27 esden: Well, I did that once for an customer, but I admit that these were not exactly embedded systems ;) Dec 29 23:50:50 esden: What is more obscure? *g* Dec 29 23:50:57 lisp ;) Dec 29 23:51:54 Oh, that's not so hard. Lisp is an old language, I'd say there should be tons of "Optimize Lisp" papers lying around ;) Dec 29 23:51:55 I fell in love with that language ... it is so enlightening to code in that language ... you form the code not the code forces you to form your ideas in a special way Dec 29 23:52:09 yacc: yes that is right Dec 29 23:52:32 yacc: there is an embedded implementation already ... hedgehog ... but I have to admit that I do not really like the implementation Dec 29 23:52:50 what would be really amazing is to get the sbcl implementation running on arm Dec 29 23:53:06 but I think that thing is just too big Dec 29 23:53:18 the advantage is that it is a real compiler Dec 29 23:53:34 not an interpreter or bytecode interpreter Dec 29 23:53:53 perhups something from the scheme world will fit the application Dec 29 23:54:05 but I have not investigated there yet Dec 29 23:54:19 I only had a look at the Common Lisp camp Dec 29 23:55:08 Well, language design is an art form. It's hard to know the important pieces (for the feel and productivity of a system) without some experience ;( Dec 29 23:55:13 but I can imagine that scheme will be a better choice because the language is smaller ... what leads to a smaller implementation and smaller is better for embedded Dec 29 23:57:17 yes ... and I think that I am too stupid to create my own language ... that is why I would like to port something existing to the system ... but it has to have a running and usable REPL ... otherwise it will miss half of the beauty of working with a real dynamic language lisp is ;) Dec 29 23:57:18 Yes, I'd say schema might be a better choice. CL tends to be a little bit heavy-weight. Dec 29 23:57:34 Although, squeak on a handheld might be fun too :) Dec 29 23:58:13 sure ... ;) Dec 29 23:58:34 smalltalk is still on my tolearn list ... Dec 29 23:58:50 Well, what languages do you know already? Dec 29 23:59:02 Objective-C? Python? Ruby? Dec 29 23:59:58 humm ... c, c++, perl, ruby, objective-c, some assemblers, bash shell, pascal, delphi, common lisp (only basics) and a little bit sheme Dec 30 00:00:25 I do not know what I missed in the list Dec 30 00:00:31 yacc: and you? Dec 30 00:02:03 Well, Smalltalk is basically Ruby ;) Dec 30 00:02:16 ahh right ... I also know java (I hate it that is why I forgot it) and abap (terrible language I do not want to code that never again) Dec 30 00:02:32 Well, Ruby does have a little bit different syntax, a different library, but the runtime/object model is mostly Smalltalk. Dec 30 00:02:45 yacc: wow that is cool Dec 30 00:03:32 yacc: I read about it that ruby borrowed many things from smalltalk ... I also found many borrowed things from lisp ... Dec 30 00:03:57 that is why ruby is the second behind lisp in my list of favorite languages ;) Dec 30 00:03:58 Single inheritance, late-runtime-binding by name, (selectors with : showing the argument places), a special syntax for blocks (Ruby has them simplified a bit with the yield stuff), ... Dec 30 00:05:22 classes are always open in smalltalk. Dec 30 00:05:48 So basically, Ruby is a modern take on Smalltalk with Perlish syntax *iieck* Dec 30 00:06:29 lol Dec 30 00:06:36 esden: another way to triangle Smalltalk is Objective-C == C with tacked on Smalltalk runtime? Dec 30 00:06:59 although objc does miss garbage collection. Dec 30 00:07:12 yacc: not anymore *G* Dec 30 00:07:44 yacc: apple added garbage collection to Obj-C in the Obj-C 2 system Dec 30 00:08:20 That's nice, but I don't have an Mac. Which is funny, because I work at a company where Macs are the standard fare. Dec 30 00:08:25 they have it in the new XCode for leopard Dec 30 00:09:48 I am pretty much looking forward to get my fingers on the new Obj-C and test the GC ;) ... I really ask myself what or who did they kill to get the GC in place ;) Dec 30 00:10:28 * yacc wonders how to transcode a Disney DVD to mpg. Just doing mplayer -dumpstream + avidemux results in a bad a/v sync :( Dec 30 00:10:34 yacc: that is a pity ... macs are so nice *G* Dec 30 00:11:17 yacc: I would say take handbrake it is doing it right ... but AFAIK it only runs on a mac ;) Dec 30 00:11:24 esden: It's even uglier, my MSI S260 laptop in white looks like a Mac, (I didn't intend that effect, I bought it because it was a reasonable priced 12" subnotebook). Dec 30 00:11:41 rofl! Dec 30 00:11:52 that is what I call motivation ;) Dec 30 00:12:10 OTOH, I've never been to the office, so nobody has seen my laptop :) Dec 30 00:12:28 Commuting to california doesn't sound like fun ;) Dec 30 00:12:28 hehe .. I think it is better this way ;) Dec 30 00:14:46 why? Dec 30 00:15:21 Well, my current "customer" is located in California. Dec 30 00:16:30 ohh .. I see Dec 30 00:17:08 I think it would be not such a big problem to get a mac then ;) Dec 30 00:17:40 on every current mac you have the words "designed in california" then you can get one from the source *G* Dec 30 00:18:17 Well, I don't work for Apple. Just at a place with a number of Hollywood oldhands. Dec 30 00:20:59 hehe ... I did not even think that you work for Apple ... I think they would not leave you a choice what laptop to have ;) Dec 30 00:23:04 urgh ... scsh is over 3Mb big ... in the compressed form ... that is big Dec 30 00:24:15 esden: As a contractor it's my own choice, and my own money ;) Dec 30 00:24:52 as a contractor you sign contracts ... they could require it from you in the contract ... ;) Dec 30 00:26:01 esden: Well, they could require something that requires using a Mac ;) Dec 30 00:26:35 esden: In practice, and especially in Germany, customers tend to refrain from specifying anything beyond the minimum required. Dec 30 00:26:54 yacc: yes they could ;) Dec 30 00:27:06 "Scheinselbstständigkeit" is the thing they try to avoid like the devil holy water ;) Dec 30 00:27:50 yes ... I know ;) Dec 30 00:27:57 esden: but yes, they can require something that implies using a Mac. Although I usually managed to develop stuff on Linux and test it only say on Windows ;) Dec 30 00:28:42 I often write software on my mac that lateron is used on windows for the rest of its life Dec 30 02:39:38 i know there are probably a million people asking, but how might i obtain a neo? i'm a dev with a ton of ideas (and some concepts already written out) Dec 30 02:40:11 i currently have the motorola a1200 ming, but motorola EZX is pretty nasty in openness **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Dec 30 02:59:58 2006