**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jan 08 02:59:57 2007
Jan 08 05:58:50 <greentux_alt> hrw|gone: morning, for info: sean will be @fosdem.
Jan 08 06:13:43 <Psi_> does this channel get a little more lively at certain times?
Jan 08 06:25:06 <mickey|earlybird> morning guys
Jan 08 06:25:17 <mickey|earlybird> Psi_: european work times usually work best
Jan 08 06:25:44 <Psi_> i see
Jan 08 07:16:33 <aloril> this is a bit like first 'personal computers', except much better: now almost all is open
Jan 08 07:17:16 <aloril> mickey|earlybird: did you research touch screen? 3rd question: would twiddler2 like functionality be possible on it?
Jan 08 07:21:59 <mickey|earlybird> did not have much time for the ts yet. I'm afraid 4 fingers won't match, because the display is only 4.5mm x 6.2mm
Jan 08 07:24:42 <aloril> you mean 4.5cm x 6.2cm? ok, I guess then maybe something like http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html but with 2-3 fingers
Jan 08 07:25:35 <aloril> probably a lot changed from 1 finger hexinput idea, but I think with 3 finger gestures might achieve something nice
Jan 08 07:25:52 <aloril> maybe even faster input than traditional keyboard
Jan 08 07:27:47 <mickey|earlybird> ya, that hex input looks interesting
Jan 08 07:29:45 * CM also likes the looks of HexInput (QUONG)
Jan 08 08:02:22 <Stephmw> g'morning
Jan 08 08:07:14 <mickey|earlybird> morning stefan_schmidt
Jan 08 08:07:19 <mickey|earlybird> ~lart tab competion
Jan 08 08:07:19 * apt does a little 'dpkg -P tab competion' action
Jan 08 08:07:23 <mickey|earlybird> morning Stephmw
Jan 08 08:09:58 <Stephmw> I really need my other half to start working and earning more than me... I need a year's worth of holidays :)
Jan 08 08:13:32 <mickey|earlybird> :)
Jan 08 08:13:37 <mickey|earlybird> same here
Jan 08 08:14:00 <mickey|earlybird> initial idea was to make half a year pause after submitting the ph.d thesis
Jan 08 08:14:12 <mickey|earlybird> i ended up getting into a project seamlessly 
Jan 08 08:14:13 <mickey|earlybird> *sigh*
Jan 08 08:14:24 <hrw|work> ;)
Jan 08 08:14:39 <hrw|work> I finally will start making money from OE work
Jan 08 08:15:08 <hrw|work> no more crappy php programming
Jan 08 08:17:11 <mickey|earlybird> congrats. quite an improvement :)
Jan 08 08:17:47 <hrw|work> yep - now I will officially spend more of time on OE:D
Jan 08 08:17:55 <Stephmw> woo :)
Jan 08 08:18:10 <Stephmw> mickey|earlybird: yeah, seamless projects are my curse too
Jan 08 08:29:59 <Stephmw> mickey|earlybird: will take a snowboarding break end of this month, and of course a  quick FOSDEM in February
Jan 08 08:32:15 <mickey|earlybird> cool, will meet you there
Jan 08 08:33:19 * Stephmw kicks Lotus Notes
Jan 08 08:35:11 <hrw|work> 1
Jan 08 09:11:48 * so_solid_moo looks at new maemo N800
Jan 08 09:12:02 <so_solid_moo> still no phone :/
Jan 08 12:47:08 <Eblis> is there any information available on the actual release date ? :)
Jan 08 12:47:21 <Eblis> (probably asked a lot around here)
Jan 08 12:48:13 <Cockroach-> I suppose the topic is as precise as it gets
Jan 08 12:48:22 <Eblis> aha
Jan 08 12:48:24 <Eblis> thanks
Jan 08 12:48:51 * mickeyl suspects a developer run end of January with wide availability somewhere in Februar
Jan 08 12:48:53 <mickeyl> but that's just a guess
Jan 08 12:50:01 <Elrond> Are there any plans for real world shops, where one can look at it before buying?
Jan 08 12:51:19 <mickeyl> probably not. at least not pushed by FIC. 
Jan 08 12:51:43 <mickeyl> there will probably be some shops carrying the devices, but they won't be official resellers
Jan 08 12:52:36 <Elrond> Hmm, okay.
Jan 08 12:53:22 <Elrond> I like to have things in my hand before spending lots of money. (I've bad eyes. Testing things before buying is important to me.)
Jan 08 12:53:33 <hrw|work> mickeyl: FIC should get some for FOSDEM to sell ;D
Jan 08 12:54:10 <stefan_schmidt> hrw|work: Not sell, give away. ;)
Jan 08 12:55:03 <Elrond> If I get one for free as a developer, I wouldn't care too much. ;o)
Jan 08 12:55:43 <Elrond> But I guess, there will only be a small discount for developers.
Jan 08 12:56:56 <mickeyl> heh
Jan 08 12:57:07 <mickeyl> dunno
Jan 08 12:57:22 <mickeyl> once we are in full production mode, I'll pester FIC to host developer contest and stuff
Jan 08 12:58:08 <Elrond> :)
Jan 08 12:59:25 <Elrond> Is that the only current hw spec available? http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html
Jan 08 13:01:10 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: yes
Jan 08 13:01:58 <Elrond> That leaves a lot of questions open ;)
Jan 08 13:11:15 <mickeyl> tell us your 3 most wanted questions
Jan 08 13:11:41 <Eblis> 1) .Net support ?
Jan 08 13:11:44 <Eblis> :)
Jan 08 13:11:50 <mickeyl> via gprs and usb
Jan 08 13:11:54 <Elrond> Eblis - That's not hardware.
Jan 08 13:11:54 <hrw|work> 1: BT or not, 2: how BT is connected?
Jan 08 13:12:03 <Lumpio-> Eblis: If somebody ports Mono :P
Jan 08 13:12:16 <stefan_schmidt> hrw|work: 2: USB
Jan 08 13:12:20 * Stephmw shudders
Jan 08 13:12:25 <mickeyl> bluetooth... hmmm.... 85% sure, usb.
Jan 08 13:12:25 <Lumpio-> No builtin BT?
Jan 08 13:12:38 <mickeyl> there are internal usb connections
Jan 08 13:12:39 <Eblis_> opps, didn't see the answer to my question (.Net support)
Jan 08 13:12:40 <Lumpio-> :o
Jan 08 13:12:58 <Lumpio-> o
Jan 08 13:13:05 <hrw|work> mickeyl: BT 1.2 only? no BT 2.0 with EDR?
Jan 08 13:13:06 <mickeyl> Eblis: GPRS, USB, (likely) BT
Jan 08 13:13:14 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: He mean mono
Jan 08 13:13:24 <Elrond> 1) WLAN?
Jan 08 13:13:24 <mickeyl> oh .net
Jan 08 13:13:25 <Lumpio-> .NET as in that framework thingie
Jan 08 13:13:26 <mickeyl> hehehehe
Jan 08 13:13:32 <mickeyl> i see
Jan 08 13:13:33 <stefan_schmidt> Eblis: I guess not out-of-the-box
Jan 08 13:13:38 <Lumpio-> Eblis: Port Mono :P
Jan 08 13:13:43 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: No wlan
Jan 08 13:13:54 <mickeyl> software wise, the answer for almost all your questions is: if someone wants to do it
Jan 08 13:13:55 <Stephmw> wlan would suck too much juice imo
Jan 08 13:13:59 <Lumpio-> As long as it runs something like Python (which is surely will) I'll be happy
Jan 08 13:14:03 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - Good bt chipsets can do BT _or_ wlan.
Jan 08 13:14:18 <Lumpio-> Tbh this device would be great if it wasn't for the lack of proper Internet connection :I
Jan 08 13:14:37 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Good chips with open source driver?
Jan 08 13:14:39 <Eblis_> mickeyl: that usually the answer for all opensource projects :)
Jan 08 13:14:48 <Eblis_> if someone wants it then it's available :)
Jan 08 13:14:55 <Lumpio-> Something that is faster than a 56k modem and doesn't require me to stand within 5m from one of the ten BT Internet access points in the country
Jan 08 13:15:06 <mickeyl> indeed. that's something we can learn today. OpenMoko is a open source project more than anything else
Jan 08 13:15:09 <mickeyl> :)
Jan 08 13:16:06 <aloril> mickeyl: shell included out of box? (I think I saw somebody mentioning busybox)
Jan 08 13:16:24 <mickeyl> aloril: absolutely. it's a hacker device :)
Jan 08 13:16:30 <Eblis_> i was asking about .net (and not mono) because i've heard it's a bit slow
Jan 08 13:16:41 <aloril> mickeyl: python included out of box too?
Jan 08 13:16:48 <Eblis_> but i have no experience with mono and i do not know if it is indeed [much] slower than .Net or not
Jan 08 13:17:14 <mickeyl> dunno. that depends on how much the actual flash will be and how long we are supposed to delay launching the hardware because the software lacks ;)
Jan 08 13:17:20 <stefan_schmidt> Eblis: What other .NET implementations are available for linux
Jan 08 13:17:24 <stefan_schmidt> ?
Jan 08 13:17:33 <CM> No ir on it? Would be a mean remote..
Jan 08 13:17:38 <mickeyl> seriously, i expect the device to ship bare bones... dialer, app manager, base PIM. the rest will come gradually
Jan 08 13:17:47 <stefan_schmidt> CM: no ir
Jan 08 13:17:59 <Lumpio-> Eblis: .NET is a framework, Mono is an implementation of it.
Jan 08 13:18:11 * stefan_schmidt tries to remember if he has seen ir on the prototyp.
Jan 08 13:18:15 <Lumpio-> The framework itself isn't really "fast" or "slow"
Jan 08 13:18:45 <CM> stefan_schmidt: I haven't heard any about it, but it's fairly common on mobiles
Jan 08 13:18:48 <Lumpio-> Hrm, you think the OpenMoko will have a camera in the next version?
Jan 08 13:19:00 <Lumpio-> I mean... I wouldn't mind having a camera that's "always with me".
Jan 08 13:19:25 <aloril> Lumpio-: just download using some existing highspeed connection and put to micro-SD card  (or use USB-WiFi/whatever with power injector)
Jan 08 13:19:27 <Elrond> CM - ir has died out again. Everybody seems to love BT.... Except I have no BT device at all.
Jan 08 13:19:36 <Stephmw> mobile phone cameras leave a lot to be desired, quality-wise
Jan 08 13:20:02 <stefan_schmidt> Stephmw: BE fair, they just sucks at all. ;)
Jan 08 13:20:20 <Lumpio-> Elrond: Download what? o_O
Jan 08 13:20:25 <Lumpio-> aloril even
Jan 08 13:20:26 <Elrond> I don't want a camera in my phone. :)
Jan 08 13:20:42 <aloril> any good USB controllable camera with open support (ie. linux) that is not too pricey?
Jan 08 13:20:51 <Elrond> Wait: The usb is host or client?
Jan 08 13:20:53 <Lumpio-> Webcams? :P
Jan 08 13:21:37 <aloril> Elrond: I think both, but unpowered (need powered hub for example)
Jan 08 13:22:01 <aloril> Lumpio-: umm.. are any actually good?
Jan 08 13:22:06 <freak132> cameraphones have horrible quality because they have such tiny lenses and a tiny focal distance as well (distance between the dlense and the CCD)
Jan 08 13:22:10 <Stephmw> stefan_schmidt: ok, ok, so they do :)
Jan 08 13:22:14 <Lumpio-> There are some good webcams, driver support is abysmal though :\
Jan 08 13:22:26 <Stephmw> stefan_schmidt: I'm also spoilt, I use a dSLR for my stuff nowdays
Jan 08 13:23:05 <Stephmw> freak132: you forgot 'and shitty-quality optics'
Jan 08 13:23:08 <Elrond> I use a fixed lens dslr-class. ;)
Jan 08 13:23:11 <freak132> and the usb connection on the openmoko isnt a usb host connector if i remember correctly
Jan 08 13:23:17 <freak132> Stephmw: thanks
Jan 08 13:23:39 <Lumpio-> Er I remember some sites saying it's "unpowered"
Jan 08 13:23:45 <Lumpio-> Wouldn't make sense to say that about a client-only USB
Jan 08 13:23:50 <Stephmw> Elrond: aye, 50mm f1.8 prime for speed, and assorted glass
Jan 08 13:24:24 <Elrond> Stephmw - :)
Jan 08 13:24:28 <stefan_schmidt> Lumpio-: But you can use it as host usb, just need to but a powered usb hub between.
Jan 08 13:24:31 <rob_w> sooo , ETA is here , any news ?
Jan 08 13:24:39 <stefan_schmidt> rob_w: no
Jan 08 13:24:54 <Lumpio-> stefan_schmidt: I know, I was just semireplyinf to freak132 saying it isn't USB host
Jan 08 13:25:15 <Lumpio-> inf being ing
Jan 08 13:25:19 <Stephmw> Elrond: latest love of my life is a 17-85mm f4-5,6 IS USM... shooting the moon at iso100 and 1/80s is sweet
Jan 08 13:26:14 <Elrond> Stephmw - 35mm equiv?
Jan 08 13:26:21 <aloril> mickeyl: well.. I'm happy if it has basic phone stuff working + shell + ipkg (maybe browser and ssh too?)
Jan 08 13:26:37 <koen> Stephmw: that's only ef-s, though
Jan 08 13:26:39 <aloril> mickeyl: prefer to get hardware now, software can always be updated later ;-)
Jan 08 13:26:39 <Elrond> ipkg?
Jan 08 13:27:04 <koen> Stephmw: http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=32&sort=7&cat=2 is sweet
Jan 08 13:27:10 <Lumpio-> Tbh I don't care what software it comes with out of the box as long as it comes with the necessary software to add software :P
Jan 08 13:27:35 <Stephmw> Elrond: x1.6 crop factor
Jan 08 13:28:25 <aloril> Elrond: reportedly it uses it: http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/Ipkg
Jan 08 13:28:41 <Stephmw> Elrond: so off the top of my head... 27-100something
Jan 08 13:28:49 <Elrond> Stephmw - That's about the lens my one has. f2.8-f5 or so.
Jan 08 13:28:55 <koen> Stephmw: 136
Jan 08 13:29:22 <Stephmw> koen: cheers
Jan 08 13:29:42 <koen> Stephmw: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/taking-pictures-of-the-moon :)
Jan 08 13:29:58 <Stephmw> it was a natural upgrade from my two other lenses (kit 17-55 and 24-105)
Jan 08 13:30:25 <koen> 24-105L?
Jan 08 13:30:26 <Stephmw> it was also cheap(ish)
Jan 08 13:30:30 <Stephmw> hell NO
Jan 08 13:30:37 <Stephmw> haven't got any expensive glass yet
Jan 08 13:31:16 <aloril> it would be nice to have good camera with complete software stack as free
Jan 08 13:31:55 <Stephmw> koen: nice set - tripod I imagine?
Jan 08 13:32:01 <koen> yep
Jan 08 13:32:14 <koen> Stephmw: but 1/200 F16 with iso400
Jan 08 13:32:22 <koen> the moon is actually pretty bright 
Jan 08 13:32:48 <Stephmw> definately - although I wouldn't shoot that slow without a tripod/IS
Jan 08 13:33:06 <Elrond> aloril - hehe... like one comedy here: "Soon we can buy stocks using using our hairdryer. Afterwards we don't own our hair, of course."
Jan 08 13:34:35 <aloril> anybody tried yet taking several images of moon and then combine 'super resolution' image from them?
Jan 08 13:34:43 <Elrond> So from a networking point of view, we have usn, bt and gprs, right?
Jan 08 13:35:15 <mickeyl> yes, likely, yes
Jan 08 13:35:25 <mickeyl> [usb,bt,gprs]
Jan 08 13:35:31 <Stephmw> aloril: segmented telescopes do fine :-)
Jan 08 13:37:23 <Elrond> only bt and usb sound nearrly fast enough for a networked fs...
Jan 08 13:37:29 <aloril> Stephmw: well.. I was thinking just normal consumer cameras ;-)
Jan 08 13:38:03 <koen> for 'super resolution' pix you need at least a 600mm lens
Jan 08 13:38:09 <koen> and those aren't cheap
Jan 08 13:38:22 <Stephmw> aye
Jan 08 13:38:43 <koen> let's timeshare a canon 1200mm lens!
Jan 08 13:38:53 <koen> it's only €100k
Jan 08 13:38:58 <mickeyl> hrw|work: 2.0+EDR
Jan 08 13:39:00 <mickeyl> :D
Jan 08 13:39:22 <hrw|work> mickeyl: you got 2.0edr? nice
Jan 08 13:39:30 <mickeyl> *nod*
Jan 08 13:39:47 <aloril> koen: umm.. no, I meant super-resolution achieved by software by combining series of images taken from same object
Jan 08 13:39:49 <hrw|work> mickeyl: how fast connection you got with it?
Jan 08 13:40:00 <Stephmw> koen: http://photos.jibble.org/Moonphotos
Jan 08 13:40:02 <Elrond> 2) The gps works? ;)
Jan 08 13:40:06 <mickeyl> hrw|work: no idea. no chance to test yet
Jan 08 13:40:14 <Stephmw> koen: not mine, but better glass that I'll ever buy :)
Jan 08 13:40:18 <Stephmw> *than
Jan 08 13:40:43 <Lumpio-> 320x240 CMOS webcam, plastic lens, with fixed focus = win
Jan 08 13:42:35 <hrw|work> mickeyl: do you have second 2.0edr device to check with?
Jan 08 13:42:49 <koen> mickeyl: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/geotagging/?fn=IMG_6544.JPG
Jan 08 13:42:54 <mickeyl> hrw: i don't think so... except perhaps my k800i ?
Jan 08 13:43:22 <mickeyl> heh. geotagging? cool
Jan 08 13:43:30 <koen> mickeyl: a few lines of php and javascript to show why I like gps's :)
Jan 08 13:43:38 <mickeyl> koen: yeah, definitly. that'
Jan 08 13:43:39 <mickeyl> s neat
Jan 08 13:43:43 <mickeyl> i want to have that on the neo
Jan 08 13:43:48 <mickeyl> ah damn
Jan 08 13:43:49 <mickeyl> no cam :/
Jan 08 13:44:25 <koen> mickeyl: http://oregonstate.edu/~earlyj/gpsphotolinker/
Jan 08 13:44:34 <mickeyl> hrw|work: i might buy a 2.0edr bluetooth usb dongle eventually
Jan 08 13:44:53 <mickeyl> nice
Jan 08 13:45:19 <hrw|work> mickeyl: Logitech made one for their keyboard/mouse BT sets. check ebay for dongles itself.
Jan 08 13:45:32 <koen> 'dongle'
Jan 08 13:45:47 <koen> the bluetooth dongle is in the charging station
Jan 08 13:45:52 <hrw|work> hi [g2] 
Jan 08 13:46:02 <[g2]> morning hrw|work !
Jan 08 13:46:08 <hrw|work> koen: it is normal usb stick size
Jan 08 13:46:31 <[g2]> are you guys talking about the N800 or openmoko or other ?
Jan 08 13:47:56 <koen> mickeyl: I just want something that logs gpx tracks (or something gpsbabel can convert in to gpx tracks) and associate that with pictures taken
Jan 08 13:48:47 <Eblis_> Lumpio-: i was referring to Microsoft's implementation of .Net
Jan 08 13:48:47 <Eblis_> :)
Jan 08 13:49:24 <Stephmw> Eblis_: looks like you've volunteered to write .Mono Compact :)
Jan 08 13:49:24 <stefan_schmidt> Eblis_: You know that OpenMoko is a Linux framework?
Jan 08 13:50:18 <Eblis_> yeah, i know
Jan 08 13:50:25 <Eblis_> sorry, was a bit busy
Jan 08 13:50:42 <Eblis_> i just read the line where someone asked if python was available ... that's ok too :)
Jan 08 13:52:53 <Elrond> mickeyl, koen - The gps is one of the things I'm interested in the neo.
Jan 08 13:54:02 <[g2]> koen gpsbabel converts from nmea to gpx
Jan 08 13:54:14 <koen> [g2]: right
Jan 08 13:54:42 <[g2]> there's an option to specify the number of points in the track to save
Jan 08 13:54:43 <aloril> koen: http://hanson.gmu.edu/image.pdf (seems original site has died)
Jan 08 14:00:05 <koen> mickeyl: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/geotagging/trail.php
Jan 08 14:00:20 <koen> mickeyl: that parses every jpg and adds a marker on the map
Jan 08 14:00:32 <koen> mickeyl: clicking on the marker pops up a thumbnail
Jan 08 14:00:32 <mickeyl> what a cool thing
Jan 08 14:01:15 <koen> the source: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/geotagging/trail.phps
Jan 08 14:01:19 <koen> (sorry hrw)
Jan 08 14:01:59 <koen> did that during a coffee break
Jan 08 14:02:29 <mickeyl> nice
Jan 08 14:06:20 <Stephmw> I wish I could code on non-work related stuff in my breaks - but then it'd belong to my employer
Jan 08 14:09:08 <koen> my current employer isn't really in the software biz :)
Jan 08 14:09:31 <mickeyl> bbl, going out for lunch 
Jan 08 14:09:39 <koen> ~bon appetit
Jan 08 14:09:40 <apt> from memory, bon appetit is smacznego.  Guten Appetit.  Eet Smakelijk.  God Appetitt.  Buon Appetito.  Buen apetito  Bom Apetite. buen apetito
Jan 08 14:10:25 <mickeyl> merci
Jan 08 14:23:20 <CM> koen: Add "Smaklig måltid" to apts bon appetit ;)
Jan 08 14:24:45 <hrw|work> CM: you do this too
Jan 08 14:24:58 <CM> Ok, how? :)
Jan 08 14:25:01 <hrw|work> CM: use 'apt: bon appetit is also Smaklig mĺltid'
Jan 08 14:25:11 <CM> aha
Jan 08 14:25:13 * hrw|work lack utf8 here to enter this
Jan 08 14:25:37 <CM> apt: bon appetit is also Smaklig måltid!
Jan 08 14:25:38 <apt> okay, CM
Jan 08 14:25:55 <hrw|work> ~bon appetit
Jan 08 14:25:57 <apt> i heard bon appetit is smacznego.  Guten Appetit.  Eet Smakelijk.  God Appetitt.  Buon Appetito.  Buen apetito  Bom Apetite. buen apetito  Smaklig måltid!
Jan 08 14:26:14 <Elrond> ~smacznego
Jan 08 14:27:00 <aloril> apt: bon appetit is also Hyvää ruokahalua
Jan 08 14:27:02 <apt> aloril: i'm not going to learn illegal characters
Jan 08 14:27:40 <CM> ~blootbot
Jan 08 14:27:42 <apt> i heard blootbot is an IRC bot written in perl descended from infobot. Hosted on SF. Patches welcome, submit on SF or mailto:Tim@Rikers.org, or http://blootbot.sourceforge.net/,.  I am a blootbot
Jan 08 14:28:02 <CM> Hehe.. The homepage says "The slowest and most bloated bot in the world"
Jan 08 14:31:04 <aloril> apt: bon appetit is also Hyvää ruokahalua
Jan 08 14:31:06 <apt> i'm not going to learn illegal characters, aloril
Jan 08 14:32:01 <hrw|work> aloril: use utf8
Jan 08 14:32:25 <koen> apt: bon appetit is also Hyvää ruokahalua
Jan 08 14:32:26 <apt> koen: i'm not going to learn illegal characters
Jan 08 14:32:48 <koen> weird, my client should be utf8
Jan 08 14:34:19 <aloril> hmm.. ditto, xchat claims my current charset is UTF-8 ..
Jan 08 14:38:53 <aloril> apt: bon appetit is also Hyvää ruokahalua
Jan 08 14:38:55 <apt> aloril: okay
Jan 08 14:39:21 <aloril> seems to use ISO-8859-15 ;-)
Jan 08 14:39:37 <aloril> (changed back to UTF-8)
Jan 08 14:39:54 <aloril> ~bon appetit
Jan 08 14:39:54 <apt> bon appetit is probably smacznego.  Guten Appetit.  Eet Smakelijk.  God Appetitt.  Buon Appetito.  Buen apetito  Bom Apetite. buen apetito  Smaklig måltid!.  Hyvää ruokahalua
Jan 08 15:22:01 <Stephmw> aloril: any idea if the image.pdf guys ever wrote any software for that stuff?
Jan 08 15:22:53 <Elrond> Stephmw - Some "super resolution" stuff is in "ale".
Jan 08 15:23:03 <Elrond> (debian: apt-get install ale)
Jan 08 15:28:29 <Stephmw> Elrond: very interesting! I'll give it a whirl when I get home
Jan 08 15:30:08 <Elrond> Stephmw - It's not very userfriendly... And my quick tries with strange data did not really give a usable result. YMMV.
Jan 08 15:31:13 <Elrond> <-- on his way home.
Jan 08 15:31:55 * Stephmw is on his way home too... not Elrond's home, of course...
Jan 08 15:33:01 <koen> mickeyl: maemo3 uses gtk 2.10
Jan 08 15:40:30 <mickeyl> interesting. they forward ported all their patches?
Jan 08 15:41:06 <koen> http://maemo.org/maemowiki/MaemoGtk210Changes
Jan 08 15:41:11 <koen> http://maemo.org/maemowiki/MaemoGtk210Changes
Jan 08 15:41:22 <koen> I kind of expected it
Jan 08 15:41:40 <koen> since nokia dudes posted profiles made on an arm11 to the performance list
Jan 08 15:41:52 <koen> they went very silent after I pointed that out :)
Jan 08 15:42:07 <mickeyl> http://maemo.org/maemowiki/MaemoGtk26Rationales is pretty interesting as well
Jan 08 15:43:17 * koen reads http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=169544
Jan 08 16:15:05 <aloril> Stephmw[Zzzzz]: yes, but no idea if its published anywhere
Jan 08 17:47:02 <aloril> mickeyl: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000576.html answer some questions
Jan 08 17:47:33 <mickeyl> righto
Jan 08 17:47:44 <mickeyl> there were leaked documents floating around for a totally different product :/
Jan 08 17:52:03 <Elrond> Can the gsm module be deactivated from software?
Jan 08 17:52:34 <koen> I think so
Jan 08 17:53:04 <koen> worst case scenario: twiddle gpios with devmem2
Jan 08 17:54:26 <Elrond> The idea is to use the thing as a nice gps :)
Jan 08 17:56:04 <mickeyl> the gsm has to be "power-downable"
Jan 08 17:56:10 <mickeyl> at least according to the regulations
Jan 08 17:56:14 <mickeyl> we must support a flight mode
Jan 08 17:56:29 <Elrond> Ahh.
Jan 08 17:56:46 <Elrond> My current cell phone has to be switched of for "flight mode" ;)
Jan 08 17:56:52 <koen> mickeyl: maybe you put it in agpsd and 'we' don't have access to it ;)
Jan 08 17:59:20 <mickeyl> koen: flight mode into agpsd?
Jan 08 18:00:34 <koen> mickeyl: dunno how opensource avoiding the FIC code drones are
Jan 08 18:00:48 <mickeyl> heh
Jan 08 18:00:51 <mickeyl> they're getting better :)
Jan 08 18:01:10 <koen> if you say "only agpsd is closed" it sudden;y grows to 8MB
Jan 08 18:01:35 <mickeyl> heh right
Jan 08 18:01:42 <mickeyl> init=/sbin/agpsd
Jan 08 18:01:55 <mickeyl> :D
Jan 08 18:02:06 <mickeyl> all apps in one binary
Jan 08 18:02:11 <koen> "highly integrated"
Jan 08 18:02:15 <Elrond> Oh? Not everything will be (free) opensource?
Jan 08 18:02:32 <spikebik1> everything except the gps daemon
Jan 08 18:02:36 <spikebik1> (so I've heard)
Jan 08 18:02:47 <Elrond> Why the gps daemon?
Jan 08 18:03:01 <spikebik1> it's rather complicated and propietary
Jan 08 18:03:08 <koen> otherwise it would have disturbed the force
Jan 08 18:03:11 <spikebik1> not that you couldn't write one
Jan 08 18:03:24 <mickeyl> super-secret AGPS chipset containing lots of IP that has to be protected
Jan 08 18:03:52 <spikebik1> not sure exactly what AGPS is, except that it's supposed to let cell towers help somehow
Jan 08 18:04:35 <Elrond> I would have understood that in the gsm area. with the gsm encryption, bla bla.
Jan 08 18:06:12 <greentux> helps gps to have a faster initial phase
Jan 08 18:06:27 <greentux> usally initiating (cold) takes some minutes
Jan 08 18:06:53 <Elrond> How does it work?
Jan 08 18:07:03 <Elrond> And: Are there plans to opensource that part?
Jan 08 18:08:01 <greentux> a normal gps asks you "where you are" and you can put a tap on a map. then th egps calculates which satellites it could read
Jan 08 18:08:01 * koen hands Elrond a copy of IDA pro
Jan 08 18:08:01 <greentux> agps gets these info via gsm. 
Jan 08 18:08:01 <greentux> you can get ste specs and write a daemon. but i think the specs are not really open
Jan 08 18:08:31 <Elrond> koen - Oh, you get me a legal copy of it? ;o)
Jan 08 18:08:42 <Elrond> <-- currently has no ida pro.
Jan 08 18:09:13 <Elrond> greentux - Ahh, so if I disable the gsm module, it gets down to a normal gps?
Jan 08 18:10:01 <Elrond> (heh, I don't care to wait two minutes for the first fix.)
Jan 08 18:10:14 <spikebik1> dunno 
Jan 08 18:10:26 <spikebik1> the weird thing is that current GPS chipsets startup cold in 40 secs or so
Jan 08 18:10:37 <spikebik1> one I bought today is 39 seconds I beleive
Jan 08 18:10:49 <Elrond> Huh, fun.
Jan 08 18:11:28 <spikebik1> I believe yes normal GPS is possible
Jan 08 18:11:31 <spikebik1> (no gsm)
Jan 08 18:11:42 <spikebik1> but still requires the propietary module
Jan 08 18:11:44 <spikebik1> oh I thought agps was more
Jan 08 18:11:51 <spikebik1> i.e. using a GSM tower like a satelite
Jan 08 18:12:10 <spikebik1> improving coverage indoors and the like
Jan 08 18:12:56 <greentux> Elrond: perhaps
Jan 08 18:14:00 <Elrond> The gps chipset would not have been the one, where I would have expected proprietary binary code. :-|
Jan 08 18:14:52 <greentux> no, the gsm helps with some data the gps then dont need to recieve.
Jan 08 18:15:06 <greentux> so a very weak signal would be enough
Jan 08 18:15:10 <Elrond> Yeah, I understand that.
Jan 08 18:16:01 <greentux> gps has only to measure the time. all other dates (error correction, and so on) are measured by reference rx
Jan 08 18:16:21 <greentux> ok i have to do some "ikea" work fo rmy wife
Jan 08 18:16:36 * koen hands greentux a allen key
Jan 08 18:25:24 * spikebik1 ponders the n770 to n800 upgrade
Jan 08 18:27:43 * koen ponders about the dev discount
Jan 08 18:30:53 <Elrond> koen - Yep. That part would interest me too.
Jan 08 18:31:34 <spikebik1> I got one for the n770
Jan 08 18:31:34 <Elrond> I heard $350 for normal. Quite a lot for "just a phone" (you have to develop the rest ;) )
Jan 08 18:31:47 <spikebik1> alas I've not actually written anything for it
Jan 08 18:33:07 <spikebik1> elrond 1/2 as much as a green phone
Jan 08 18:33:37 <spikebik1> btw maemo mapper is awesome on the n770
Jan 08 18:33:38 <koen> and in contrary to the greenphone, it is actually open
Jan 08 18:33:43 <koen> spikebik1: it is
Jan 08 18:33:46 <spikebik1> something similar on the openmoko would be a killer ap
Jan 08 18:33:56 <koen> spikebik1: now forward port the nohildon patch :)
Jan 08 18:34:14 <koen> http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/maemo-mapper/maemo-mapper-nohildon_svn.bb
Jan 08 18:34:35 <spikebik1> interesting
Jan 08 18:34:42 <greentux> koen: what is not open at the greenphone?
Jan 08 18:34:50 <koen> greentux: almost everything
Jan 08 18:34:57 <spikebik1> I was actually thinking of writing a cache preloading ap for meamo mapper
Jan 08 18:34:59 <greentux> koen: uff
Jan 08 18:35:14 <koen> greentux: the sdk doesn't even allow you to compile busybox for your pda
Jan 08 18:35:17 <greentux> koen: only th eqtopia phone + drm part
Jan 08 18:35:58 <greentux> because busybox is not a qt app :) ?
Jan 08 18:36:17 <spikebik1> doesn't really matter IMO
Jan 08 18:36:27 <koen> no, because the sdk breaks the gpl by specifying you are only allowed to compile for the greenphone
Jan 08 18:36:30 <spikebik1> at $700 it's not going to be popular or have a community
Jan 08 18:36:37 <koen> see zecke's mail to qtopia-interest
Jan 08 18:37:00 <greentux> interesting
Jan 08 18:37:06 <spikebik1> so it's either going to be the openmoku, or some other phone with a linux port
Jan 08 18:37:13 <ljp> and zecke is a lawyer, hey
Jan 08 18:37:22 <spikebik1> motorola's making various linux friendly noises
Jan 08 18:37:41 <spikebik1> in fact the openmoko is basically a win-ce hardware... right?
Jan 08 18:38:19 <greentux> as I understand greenphone is a dev device. perhaps some company can build a real phone with qtopia for less than $400
Jan 08 18:38:30 <ljp> sharp zaurus are around $700 and there is a community around them
Jan 08 18:38:53 <ljp> gp has a very limited release numbers
Jan 08 18:39:16 <spikebik1> zaurus isn't really in the same market
Jan 08 18:39:46 <greentux> there is nothing in "that" market at this moment... 
Jan 08 18:39:53 <ljp> neither is anything elase, really, as gp is more of a reference board
Jan 08 18:40:05 <greentux> beside the GP (but only for devs)
Jan 08 18:40:47 <spikebik1> in any case glad to see linux support on phones progressing nicely
Jan 08 18:41:03 <ljp> me to
Jan 08 18:41:03 <spikebik1> sounds like openmoko and openezx or whatever it's called can help each other
Jan 08 18:43:06 <spikebik1> I'm just hoping for the simple stuff
Jan 08 18:43:45 <spikebik1> traffic updates, maemo mapper + gps, and ability to sync my contact list
Jan 08 18:43:51 <spikebik1> oh, and of course, control
Jan 08 19:32:01 <Elrond> Will the supplied contact manager be able to read the phone book on the provider's gsm chip?
Jan 08 19:32:40 <timtimred> you mean in the sim card?
Jan 08 19:33:03 <Stephmw> don't see why not - typically the sim card is communicated with serially too :)
Jan 08 19:33:07 <Elrond> Yes, "sim card" was the word I missed.
Jan 08 19:33:28 <timtimred> if they finished the contact manager, sure! :D
Jan 08 19:33:40 <Elrond> _if_ ;o)
Jan 08 19:35:08 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Contact manager, based on eds, will talk with libgsm for this and libgsm will talk to baseband cpu which talk to sim card. :)
Jan 08 19:35:19 <stefan_schmidt> And yes, I'm sure they will care about it. :)
Jan 08 19:35:26 <koen> hey stefan_schmidt 
Jan 08 19:35:32 <stefan_schmidt> hi koen 
Jan 08 19:35:45 <timtimred> you mean we dont have to learn the AT commands ourselves? boo :D
Jan 08 19:35:47 <Elrond> Ahh, something more definitive. :)
Jan 08 19:35:50 <Elrond> Thanks stefan_schmidt :)
Jan 08 19:36:18 <Elrond> timtimred - Yeah, I was expecting that. ;)
Jan 08 19:36:29 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: If I'm wrong, mickeyl or LaF0rge will hurt me for it. :)
Jan 08 19:36:47 <Elrond> Like "Ohh, a smartphone. Can one still use it for normal phones calls? ;o)" ;o)
Jan 08 19:37:09 <koen> Elrond: that would have been funny, were it not for those asian models
Jan 08 19:37:16 <Stephmw> stefan_schmidt: how wide is the pipe to the baseband? really what I mean is how much can we get the sim card to do while the baseband is busy with a call for instance?
Jan 08 19:37:41 <Stephmw> stefan_schmidt: especially thinking about SIM applications
Jan 08 19:38:05 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - public flogging? ;o)
Jan 08 19:38:55 <Stephmw> stefan_schmidt: did you ever have the chance to check out a SavaJe handset?
Jan 08 19:39:04 <Stephmw> I know, I know, I ask too many questions :)
Jan 08 19:39:55 <Elrond> Stephmw - hehe... I try to keep my questions down. You ask half of the questions I also have ;)
Jan 08 19:40:10 <stefan_schmidt> Stephmw: Oh, no idea. I would suggest you ask LaF0rge in a calm minute. (Hint after the phone is out.) :)
Jan 08 19:40:24 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: SavaJe handset? Never heard so far.
Jan 08 19:41:09 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - Stephmw asked about that handset. Whatever it is.
Jan 08 19:41:18 <Stephmw> stefan_schmidt: essentially what FIX is doing, but using a statically linked booloader+kernel_j2seJVM
Jan 08 19:41:34 <Stephmw> FIC, sorry, thickfinger day
Jan 08 19:42:32 <Elrond> Ohh: Will the neo boot from sd if I manage to break the image in flash? ;)
Jan 08 19:42:52 <Stephmw> stefan_schmidt: not that they're competition anymore (VCs asked for their money back)
Jan 08 19:43:50 <stefan_schmidt> Stephmw: Sorry, but I can't follow you right now. :) Who is VC and what competition?
Jan 08 19:44:22 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: I hope they will have a uboot with sd support. Not sure about it.
Jan 08 19:44:37 <Elrond> (I managed to break my dsl-router using the documented way to upgrade the firmware. t least, I could repair it, cause it still could boot some tftp stuff.)
Jan 08 19:45:03 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - Hmm, okay.
Jan 08 19:45:07 <Elrond> <-- heading for food.
Jan 08 19:45:42 <Stephmw> stefan_schmidt: SavaJe was a company that aimed to create a Java phone. They were funded by venture capitalists (VCs). I'll spare the history, but the VCs got tired of waiting and pulled out. *ahem* anyway, the broad software idea was the same 
Jan 08 19:46:23 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: I'm pretty sure they will allow firmware update/restore over usb within the bootloader. Means you can break anything but not the bootloader. :)
Jan 08 19:47:05 <stefan_schmidt> Stephmw: Ah, ok. Now I got it. Anyway never used SavaJe.
Jan 08 20:20:41 <variant> arrrghh! where can i get one!! :)
Jan 08 20:21:04 <Elrond> variant - Everyone wants to know. ;)
Jan 08 20:21:33 <hrw> maybe on fosdem some will be available
Jan 08 20:21:55 <Stephmw> hrw: like I said, let's get a few guys together and jump mickeyl 
Jan 08 20:22:10 <Stephmw> hrw: I hear he's 8ft tall and built like a house
Jan 08 20:22:35 <variant> I was just thinking of getting a new phone.. this new one is very nice looking
Jan 08 20:23:16 <Elrond> variant - I was looking for a new gps. ;)
Jan 08 20:23:58 <variant> Elrond: yeah, hehe
Jan 08 20:24:07 <Elrond> If it works as a phone, I'm probably happy. ;) (hopefully, I can disable gprs. Because it's super-expensive in my current paying model.)
Jan 08 20:24:41 <hrw> Stephmw: I meet mickeyl in October
Jan 08 20:25:42 <hrw> Stephmw: and got some infos about fic phone before it was announced - he did not wanted to say anything but I asked few question in proper way....
Jan 08 20:27:21 <Stephmw> hrw: that's always the case - as long as things don't leak _broadly_ too early, it's ok
Jan 08 20:27:41 <variant> i heard about it on /. 3 months ago ;P
Jan 08 20:28:02 * morricone is going to modify his Neo 1973 to look like a Star Trek PADD
Jan 08 20:28:22 <Stephmw> morricone: you get to fix its usability problems then :)
Jan 08 20:28:39 <variant> haha lcars themes.. 
Jan 08 20:29:01 <Elrond> Stephmw - "usability problems"?
Jan 08 20:29:25 <Stephmw> Elrond: LCARS, the UI style used in Star Trek, is full of usability problems ;)
Jan 08 20:30:28 <variant> yeah, like it was never designed to be used for anything.. just to look nice and not actualy do a damn thing
Jan 08 20:31:22 <Elrond> Ahh, okay. I start to get it. (I'm not a treky. I never looked much at the UI in Star Trek.)
Jan 08 20:31:58 <variant> I'm not a treky either, please please please don't label me as one :)
Jan 08 20:32:16 <Stephmw> Elrond: http://www.lcars-terminal.net/ as an example (ok, the web isn't the best media for this)
Jan 08 20:32:17 * variant hides the klingon dictioary 
Jan 08 20:32:42 <Stephmw> variant: klingon word's can't restrained to a dictionary, they restrain *you*
Jan 08 20:32:52 <Stephmw> ... ok, that was too geeky
Jan 08 20:32:56 * Stephmw hangs his head in shame
Jan 08 20:33:13 <variant> ha ahahhaah
Jan 08 20:33:35 <variant> Stephmw: man, i would leave, change your nick and come back again ;)
Jan 08 20:34:09 <hrw> I'm happy to be from wrong part of Europe when it comes to Star Trek. Here it was shown in TV too late to me became a trek fan
Jan 08 20:34:36 <Stephmw> variant: I know, I know
Jan 08 20:34:50 <Stephmw> you recognised your own tendencies?
Jan 08 20:34:57 <Stephmw> so what did you become hooked to?
Jan 08 20:35:02 <buz> i never quite understood what i was about startrek
Jan 08 20:35:33 <timtimred> star trek is too overly politically correct 
Jan 08 20:35:40 <timtimred> really quite anally
Jan 08 20:35:52 <Stephmw> buz: utopian future... gadgets... aliens... escapism
Jan 08 20:36:03 <timtimred> give me sci fi with proper cliff hangers, like the new battlestar galactica anyday
Jan 08 20:36:04 <Stephmw> timtimred: did you ever see any of the DS9 series?
Jan 08 20:36:05 <buz> yeah all of it very badly done
Jan 08 20:36:18 <Stephmw> timtimred: those were ethically murky
Jan 08 20:36:24 <Stephmw> timtimred: finally some grit
Jan 08 20:37:06 <timtimred> still very PC, trying to push through some kind of message every episode. it is great entertainment for kids, but not an adult sci fi.
Jan 08 20:37:14 <timtimred> imho :)
Jan 08 20:37:25 <variant> yeah, the anti drugs ep's are very annoying
Jan 08 20:37:38 <koen> only 4 days left till a new bsg
Jan 08 20:37:43 <timtimred> i did used to watch it :)
Jan 08 20:37:51 <timtimred> all of them
Jan 08 20:37:58 <Stephmw> timtimred: I like my dramas unafraid to kill off main characters ;)
Jan 08 20:38:20 <timtimred> koen: yeah, after a big fat cliff hanger!!! gotta love it!
Jan 08 20:38:27 <koen> yep
Jan 08 20:39:19 <timtimred> if they use this mid series i wonder whats planned for the end. i hope they make another series and not a straight to dvd movie. 
Jan 08 20:40:15 <timtimred> if not they can send me some of them naked boomers in compensation.
Jan 08 20:40:16 <koen> cylon civil war?
Jan 08 20:40:55 <timtimred> baltar finally realises hes a cylon? DOH! :D
Jan 08 20:51:31 <Elrond> Ahh, next important question: How long does the battery last?  I would hate to charge it every day. ;)  (my current phone works 10 days without needing to see a power plant :) )
Jan 08 20:52:07 <sannes> iiiiik!! it is out!! oh my god .. nah, just joking .. still January :P
Jan 08 20:52:34 <Elrond> sannes - *lol*
Jan 08 20:57:06 <PirateHead> Wow, I find myself in an active #openmoko room.
Jan 08 20:57:36 <xorAxAx> PirateHead: you can make it even more active by asking for the release date
Jan 08 20:57:50 <so_solid_moo> hehe
Jan 08 20:57:52 <sannes> :)
Jan 08 20:57:55 <PirateHead> ...more or less. Still no New 1973.
Jan 08 20:57:59 <so_solid_moo> someone really ought to put up a faq and put it in the topic....
Jan 08 20:58:05 <so_solid_moo> not that many will read it :o>
Jan 08 20:58:15 <timtimred> topic? whens it out anyway?
Jan 08 20:58:25 <timtimred> ;)
Jan 08 20:58:36 <sannes> put up a bot that repeatedly says the neo is not out yet in priv message :P
Jan 08 20:58:42 <PirateHead> One day I came in here and topic said "ETA: someday in January 2007"
Jan 08 21:01:34 <Elrond> Will it be released ever? ;)
Jan 08 21:01:52 <sannes> PirateHead: still do, well except that .. well except "someday in" part :)
Jan 08 21:02:00 <PirateHead> OpenMoko? Should be called OpenVapo.
Jan 08 21:02:14 <PirateHead> Then the software compiled for it can be called VapoWare.
Jan 08 21:02:30 <sannes> PirateHead: Can't call it vaporware until after the neo is released :P
Jan 08 21:02:59 <Elrond> At least, it's not paperware. ;)
Jan 08 21:03:01 <PirateHead> Speaking of which, has there been any talk about an SDK?
Jan 08 21:03:02 <timtimred> they are waiting while they test its connectivity with the Phantom Console
Jan 08 21:03:07 <sannes> Anyways, if it isn't released we can all start a religion instead :)
Jan 08 21:03:20 <timtimred> to see if it can sync and simultaneously run duke nukem forever
Jan 08 21:03:38 <PirateHead> lol @ timtimred. They are waiting to get the Linux version of Duke Nukem Forever ported to it.
Jan 08 21:04:41 <PirateHead> Darnit, you beat me to the dnf reference.
Jan 08 21:04:55 <sannes> .. heard that they are just waiting for that terabyte drive to come in a mobile form ..
Jan 08 21:07:01 <PirateHead> I read on slashdot recently that higher-density drives with microfibre carbon lubricant are being developed for mobiles.
Jan 08 21:07:12 <PirateHead> I forget by whom.
Jan 08 21:08:21 <Psi_> does anyone know if developers have got their phones yet? or has that not happened either?
Jan 08 21:08:21 <variant> bunch of skeptics
Jan 08 21:08:50 <variant> wil it have built in spell checker?
Jan 08 21:09:17 <Elrond> variant - The usual answer for software questions: "If someone ports it" ;)
Jan 08 21:09:45 <variant> whre is the source code?
Jan 08 21:09:49 <hrw> Elrond: s/ports/compiles
Jan 08 21:09:54 <Psi_> if its got predictive text out of the box, it would have to have some sort of dictionary
Jan 08 21:11:03 <variant> its called "open" but is there any source code yet?
Jan 08 21:11:39 <hrw> variant: openmoko code will get released with machine
Jan 08 21:11:41 <hrw> not before
Jan 08 21:11:46 <koen> variant: I've seen the source code right after the announcement last yeat
Jan 08 21:12:06 <hrw> koen: but we promised to not release it before official release
Jan 08 21:12:28 <sannes> koen: got a copy?
Jan 08 21:13:30 <variant> thats not very good for developers
Jan 08 21:14:03 <timtimred> saves third parties writing code for a moving target
Jan 08 21:14:30 <Elrond> Is it still that moving?
Jan 08 21:14:41 <sannes> heh, true, and who would setup a crosscompiling enviroment before the hardware is out anyways ..
Jan 08 21:14:46 <timtimred> i got carried aWAY with leopard builds until after my code broke the third time
Jan 08 22:57:03 <larstobi> to anyone in Trondheim; Knut Yrvin of TT will be having a talk about the Greenphone and Qtopia at my university the 13th of February.
Jan 08 23:15:22 <olaf123> hi ho
Jan 08 23:15:43 <olaf123> is this the channel for the neo1973, too ?
Jan 08 23:32:10 <Psi_> olaf123, i believe so, but ive only been in here for 1 day so you probably shouldn't trust me :P
Jan 08 23:32:28 <olaf123> :-)
Jan 08 23:33:38 <olaf123> is it possible to get informed automatically about selling start of neo1973? (sorry, I know my english is not very good)
Jan 08 23:34:30 <Psi_> i dont think so
Jan 08 23:34:51 <Psi_> watching the topic for this channel might be a good idea
Jan 08 23:35:02 <olaf123> ups
Jan 08 23:35:32 <olaf123> ok
Jan 08 23:37:00 <olaf123> thanx & bye
Jan 08 23:37:14 <MacNorth_> olaf123: there's a maillist for announcements
Jan 08 23:37:38 <olaf123> yes, I see :-)
Jan 08 23:38:02 <MacNorth_> so you may be automatically informed when the neo1973 goes on sale
Jan 08 23:38:18 <Psi_> oh, didnt notice
Jan 08 23:38:25 * Psi_ checks it out
Jan 08 23:39:49 <olaf123> Psi_: it comes with the topic you tell me
Jan 08 23:40:04 <Psi_> yes i just noticed
Jan 09 00:06:33 * yacc whines about the strict information policy not telling when it will be available.
Jan 09 00:07:29 <koen> "when the marketing dept changes their socks"
Jan 09 00:28:03 <edwardocallaghan> Hi all, what's the word on the street ?
Jan 09 00:28:27 * koen looks outside
Jan 09 00:28:33 <koen> no words on my street
Jan 09 00:28:43 <jaebird> my street is dark
Jan 09 00:28:43 <WillySilly> there is on mine
Jan 09 00:28:50 <WillySilly> it says: 'stop'
Jan 09 00:29:21 <jaebird> i noticed that the E6 as a barcode reader app that uses the camera
Jan 09 00:29:27 <WillySilly> that could be a double meaning, as in, stop asking
Jan 09 00:29:28 <jaebird> as/has/
Jan 09 00:29:46 <jaebird> that is one use for a cheap useless camera
Jan 09 00:31:27 <edwardocallaghan> You all getting a PS3 as your next Linux Desktop ?
Jan 09 00:41:18 <olaf123> bye
Jan 09 01:11:20 <spikebik1> edwardo yuck
Jan 09 01:14:43 <edwardocallaghan> ?
Jan 09 01:14:52 <spikebik1> ps3 as a desktop
Jan 09 01:21:06 <edwardocallaghan> Yes its got two 3.2GHz PPC cores under the hood
Jan 09 01:21:16 <edwardocallaghan> With 6 DSP's to play with
Jan 09 01:21:36 <edwardocallaghan> Going to try to work out what I can do with the DSP's
Jan 09 01:21:49 <edwardocallaghan> maybe some kind of hypervisor
Jan 09 01:22:19 <Lumpio-> How much noise does a PS3 make
Jan 09 01:22:29 <Lumpio-> (Yes, it's random)
Jan 09 01:23:00 <spikebik1> 2 3.2 GHz cores that are rather slow
Jan 09 01:23:26 <spikebik1> and the DSPs are very limited, no shared memory, very little local memory.
Jan 09 01:24:29 <edwardocallaghan> No not slow
Jan 09 01:24:31 <edwardocallaghan> RISC
Jan 09 01:24:44 <spikebik1> RISC has very little to do with it
Jan 09 01:24:50 <edwardocallaghan> DSP's are not limited if you use them for DSP
Jan 09 01:24:51 <spikebik1> and powerpc's aren't very RISC anyways
Jan 09 01:25:07 <edwardocallaghan> RISC has everything to do with it
Jan 09 01:25:19 * spikebik1 sighs
Jan 09 01:25:33 <edwardocallaghan> Not much noise
Jan 09 01:25:34 <spikebik1> so what do you think RISC has to do with it?
Jan 09 01:25:50 <edwardocallaghan> Less power
Jan 09 01:25:55 <spikebik1> heh
Jan 09 01:26:03 <spikebik1> the PS3 is a rather hot power hungry device
Jan 09 01:26:20 <edwardocallaghan> I know you must like cooking your hot dogs on your Xeons but...
Jan 09 01:26:22 <spikebik1> and RISC has nothing to do with power.
Jan 09 01:26:28 <spikebik1> Xeons are very hot
Jan 09 01:26:34 <spikebik1> But opterons are not.
Jan 09 01:26:40 <edwardocallaghan> CISC
Jan 09 01:26:42 <spikebik1> both are clasically CISC
Jan 09 01:26:52 <edwardocallaghan> I know
Jan 09 01:26:53 <spikebik1> Alphas are RISC and hot
Jan 09 01:27:04 <edwardocallaghan> Alpha where nice
Jan 09 01:27:05 <spikebik1> there's no coorelation between risc/cisc and hot
Jan 09 01:27:18 <edwardocallaghan> See the new Sun T1 platform
Jan 09 01:27:22 <edwardocallaghan> 72w
Jan 09 01:27:59 <spikebik1> edwardo you seen to know just enough to be dangerous, but nothing about the reality of which you speak
Jan 09 01:27:59 <edwardocallaghan> RISC can be faster then CISC
Jan 09 01:28:08 <spikebik1> and CISC can be faster than RISC
Jan 09 01:28:40 <edwardocallaghan> As most of the instructions take longer then doing them long hand
Jan 09 01:28:57 <edwardocallaghan> narr RISC all the way
Jan 09 01:29:01 <edwardocallaghan> CISC is shit
Jan 09 01:29:12 <edwardocallaghan> Openmoko will be RISC
Jan 09 01:29:12 <spikebik1> er umm
Jan 09 01:29:21 <edwardocallaghan> Think of putting a CISC in there
Jan 09 01:29:32 <spikebik1> you know that all the CISC chips have RISC cores right?
Jan 09 01:29:33 <edwardocallaghan> forget microwares
Jan 09 01:30:16 <edwardocallaghan> Xeons are based on a oven you know
Jan 09 01:30:19 <spikebik1> x86's these day just use x86 as a ISA format, and translate the instructions into microops (basically risc instructions)
Jan 09 01:30:29 <spikebik1> Xeons are dead, not a useful reference point
Jan 09 01:30:42 <edwardocallaghan> No there not?
Jan 09 01:30:47 <spikebik1> dual core opterons win vs the Sun T1 on all the benchmarks I've seen
Jan 09 01:30:53 <spikebik1> Yeah xeon is dead
Jan 09 01:31:04 <spikebik1> intel's moved to the core/core2/woodcrest based chips
Jan 09 01:31:10 <edwardocallaghan> What benchmarks ?
Jan 09 01:31:11 <spikebik1> which are dramatically faster and cooler
Jan 09 01:31:32 <spikebik1> database, java, apache, mysql, postgres, and the like
Jan 09 01:31:53 <edwardocallaghan> Do you have a heated swimming pool ?
Jan 09 01:32:00 <spikebik1> no
Jan 09 01:32:28 <spikebik1> the new X2/opterons are available at under 35 watts
Jan 09 01:32:34 <edwardocallaghan> SQL would run faster on a Niagara any day !
Jan 09 01:32:35 <spikebik1> and include the memory controller
Jan 09 01:33:01 <edwardocallaghan> There is a new T2 chip coming out soon
Jan 09 01:33:15 <edwardocallaghan> wow 2 cores, is that it ?
Jan 09 01:33:54 <spikebik1> Yup, for a few months anyways
Jan 09 01:34:17 <spikebik1> do you actually use computers or just regurgitate marketing?
Jan 09 01:34:24 <edwardocallaghan> Should be very nice indeed
Jan 09 01:34:26 <edwardocallaghan> lol
Jan 09 01:34:59 <edwardocallaghan> I have a Blade 2000 and a T1 server, a SGI O2
Jan 09 01:35:15 <edwardocallaghan> And a Ultra 40 with AMD's in there
Jan 09 01:35:31 <edwardocallaghan> The T1 chip kills the AMDs for though put
Jan 09 01:35:48 <spikebik1> the t1000's are particularly poor at anything involving floating point
Jan 09 01:35:59 <spikebik1> and AMD is doubling the number of course soon as well
Jan 09 01:37:30 <edwardocallaghan> Your be very surprised at how little people use FP calculations !
Jan 09 01:38:36 <spikebik1> true
Jan 09 01:38:42 <spikebik1> that aren't particularly good at int
Jan 09 01:38:58 <spikebik1> Many review point to the hope (great parallel performance on webservers and databases)
Jan 09 01:39:29 <spikebik1> and the reality is that each of the cores is so slow that it's hard to beat more traditional machines even with workloads particularly taylored for the t1000
Jan 09 01:39:33 <edwardocallaghan> So its good for a server and that's what its for
Jan 09 01:40:06 <edwardocallaghan> Have you got one?
Jan 09 01:41:02 <spikebik1> I've had an account
Jan 09 01:41:17 <spikebik1> the question is what is the t1000 good for?
Jan 09 01:41:30 <spikebik1> where can I get more performance per $ than a dual core dual socket opteron?
Jan 09 01:42:37 <spikebik1> check out http://blogs.smugmug.com/onethumb/2006/08/15/sun-fire-coolthreads-t1000-review/1
Jan 09 01:42:50 <spikebik1> it was hotter, no faster, and much more expensive than a rather dated server
Jan 09 01:46:02 <edwardocallaghan> Sounds like he is running Linux on a SPARC box
Jan 09 01:46:08 <edwardocallaghan> No wonder why
Jan 09 01:46:19 <edwardocallaghan> The Linux kernel is a mess
Jan 09 01:48:07 <edwardocallaghan> I got to go to bed, thanks and see you later ;)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jan 09 02:59:59 2007