**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jan 09 02:59:59 2007 Jan 09 07:07:34 2 questions (I guess answer is yes to both): 1) has somebody compiled program inside neo? (ran gcc) 2) what if you break flash image? does uboot have support for micro-SD and/or USB? Jan 09 07:14:21 aloril: I think it was some kind of discussion about that a few weeks ago. Think someone said that it would be possible to brick it if you really messed up Jan 09 07:19:04 CM: by messing bootloader I guess? Jan 09 07:19:12 Yes Jan 09 07:21:16 CM: ok, in that case kernel and/or critical application hacking should be 'safe' Jan 09 07:21:24 Sun Nov 26 2006: Jan 09 07:21:24 15:59 mickey: Do you know if its possible to brick the device? Jan 09 07:21:25 15:59 noidd: unfortunately yes. the costs are too high to do it like on the Zaurus with a seperate NOR. If you overwrite uboot, then you have bad luck Jan 09 07:21:56 But yes, I guess applications should be safe :) Jan 09 07:23:43 mickeyl: will there be accessible JTAG pads to solder onto? Jan 09 07:46:47 CM: hmm.. no need to modify uboot if you just change kernel I assume (or at most modify enviroment section to point to different kernel if even that?) (just read article about uboot, I don't know more than that about it ;-) Jan 09 10:00:59 this makes me a bit worried: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000642.html Jan 09 10:01:15 can you swap micro-SD card while running? Jan 09 10:03:23 aloril: yes Jan 09 10:03:49 aloril: but does it can be done in phone.. hmm. it has slot under battery iirc ;( Jan 09 10:07:04 can what be done? Jan 09 10:07:05 pretty sure i saw something saying it had two micro-sd slots Jan 09 10:07:27 no it has one Jan 09 10:07:27 I wonder if usb host has enough power to run USB SD mass storage (ie.. those SD cards that can act as mass storage when connected to USB) Jan 09 10:08:17 no it hasnt Jan 09 10:08:17 it's entirely unpowered Jan 09 10:08:17 which means no usb stick, either Jan 09 10:08:18 http://thoughtfix.blogspot.com/2006/01/usb-power-injector-2.html something like that should work for storage and wifi Jan 09 10:10:19 yeah, then can have quite a lot storage with USB hard disks ;-) Jan 09 10:10:34 actually, i wonder if an ipod or similar device would work without power Jan 09 10:10:35 FPGA trough USB? Jan 09 10:11:15 sure Jan 09 10:11:21 there's compact flash FPGA Jan 09 10:11:29 combine it with usb CF reader Jan 09 10:12:00 do you really need more than 4gb on your phone? Jan 09 10:12:19 mhh i need more than 1G Jan 09 10:12:28 also probably wont be too long before there is 8gb sd Jan 09 10:12:28 which is supposedly where the microsd slot will top Jan 09 10:12:33 640kB is enough for everyone! Jan 09 10:13:38 buz_, i cant see them putting a microsd slot in the phone that only supports up to 1gb, its pointless Jan 09 10:13:51 its better than nothing really Jan 09 10:14:03 just use an external harddrive Jan 09 10:14:09 Psi_: look at the sc 2410 specsheet Jan 09 10:14:09 i got one yesterday, battery powered :) Jan 09 10:14:36 I wonder how robust is USB connector, if I kept neo all the time connected to powered USB hub with enough long wire (and then various items connected to hub) Jan 09 10:22:59 ie.. powered hub would in separate case (and most of time remain in it), mobile phone in separate case but removed from it frequently and connected to hub with wire Jan 09 10:23:22 yeah but where to get a small powered usb hub Jan 09 10:23:28 small ones are usually unpowered Jan 09 10:24:13 and you need a way to power the hub :-( Jan 09 10:24:47 perhaps easier to take mini unpowered hub and use an injector Jan 09 10:26:29 it would be nice if the solar panel could work as an usb power injector and charge the phone at the same time Jan 09 10:26:49 and you put it on your hat or what Jan 09 10:27:24 http://www.gadgethub.co.uk/shop/detail.asp?ProductGroupID=11848 http://www.cetsolar.com/sc150.htm http://www.cetsolar.com/solarbatchargers.htm Jan 09 10:27:42 well it would be a lot more mobile than requiring some external power supply ? Jan 09 10:28:01 oh it was a battery Jan 09 10:28:06 ok :) Jan 09 10:28:32 whats the easiest way to get 5V Jan 09 10:28:48 preferably one thats not prone to blowing up Jan 09 10:28:50 well the injector posted's quite nice if you like batteries Jan 09 10:28:54 buz_: this doesn't qualify?: http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ Jan 09 10:29:11 (I don't know if it can be used also to charge phone..) Jan 09 10:29:18 how big is this thing Jan 09 10:31:00 buz_: dunno, doesn't seem huge when you compare to USB connector in top of picture Jan 09 10:31:17 mhh well keep in mind the usb stick will likely stick out from the side Jan 09 10:31:29 or you use very short usb cables and glue in on top Jan 09 10:33:11 doesnt say how much battery it has either Jan 09 10:33:19 hmm.. USB camera + http://www.picocomputing.com/products/cards/e12ep.php might allow some reasonable image processing, though speed of USB in neo limits things Jan 09 10:33:34 buz_: umm.. it seems to have 4 AAA's according to page Jan 09 10:33:47 the FPGA is said to cost about 3K USD Jan 09 10:34:07 that would be about 3000mAh then Jan 09 10:34:15 2,5x of what the phone has Jan 09 10:34:30 which navi software can be used on neo1973? Jan 09 10:34:45 gpsdrive maybe Jan 09 10:35:53 buz_: ouch, thanks for the FPGA price, didn't see that anywhere yet Jan 09 10:36:01 well neither did i Jan 09 10:36:08 but someone quoted that range Jan 09 10:36:13 buz_: yeah and you can always keep spare batteries around Jan 09 10:36:28 mhh aaa are f***** expensive Jan 09 10:36:30 compared to AA Jan 09 10:37:16 buz_: yeah, I would prefer bigger size and AA (and it should also give power to other direction too (maybe this does: I don't know)) Jan 09 10:37:43 no small size is good Jan 09 10:37:54 its bad enough having to carry two devices Jan 09 10:38:18 now i wonder if one could hook up wifi thru bluetooth Jan 09 10:44:05 personal itch: maybe if they release developer version earlier than actual end consumer version, maybe I could code simplified version of this idea enough fast to be included into consumer version: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Go_Teaching_Program Jan 09 10:44:11 would be good fit with touch screen Jan 09 10:44:44 what prohibits from you doing it now? Jan 09 10:53:47 koen: good point, is there list of stuff that is available by default with neo? (gtk+ at least) Jan 09 10:56:09 hmm... I think gnugo would be addon at least, even stripped i386 binary is almost 3MB (but if you get to that level, its not too big hurdle to download it) Jan 09 10:59:05 koen: also what would be reasonable size? Jan 09 11:06:40 I think binary size shouldn't matter at this point Jan 09 11:06:55 a working prototype with gtk or sdl would :) Jan 09 11:08:08 * Kaloz still wants uclibc on the neo :P Jan 09 11:08:08 ah, sdl and gtk can be assumed, I guess gtkmm can't be assumed Jan 09 11:09:06 it has packagemanagement Jan 09 11:12:05 koen: yes, for downloadable program can assume much more, but if goal is to get something bundled, then can't assume anything extra ;-) Jan 09 11:12:22 why not? Jan 09 11:12:36 just list the appropriate dependencies and put those online Jan 09 11:14:27 umm.. I think bundled program should work without downloading anything extra Jan 09 11:14:47 wrong Jan 09 11:15:03 it has packagemanagement, trying to cirumvent that leads to tears Jan 09 11:15:10 I think bundled programs should be minimized so I don't have to delete what I don't want out of flash. Jan 09 11:15:35 but there should be a smorgasboard of programs to install using the package management. Jan 09 11:15:42 just think of what happens when 3 bundles all want to install libgtkmm Jan 09 11:17:15 or if 3 bundles all statically link to a 5mb lib Jan 09 11:17:52 koen: ah.. I didn't mean that of course, I meant "use only what is bundled so this program can also work without downloading" Jan 09 11:18:14 so if lihgtkmm is not bundled, then don't use it at all ;-) Jan 09 11:18:20 so to get your program you're going to send me floppies? Jan 09 11:19:04 koen: well.. I would to see it bundled with neo by default without any need for downloads Jan 09 11:19:05 (I get the idea, but you can't prevent downloading in this day and age) Jan 09 11:19:47 koen: well.. more full featured (with full gnugo, etc.. go programs and other features) would be download of course Jan 09 11:25:17 hmm.. using monte carlo and 9x9 board only and basic features probably could get it into quite small size Jan 09 11:34:45 is python bundled? Jan 09 11:40:24 probably not Jan 09 11:41:37 * rwhitby wants emacs bundles ;-) Jan 09 11:41:47 s/bundles/bundled/ Jan 09 11:42:38 rwhitby: if all goes well the final board will have a debug port that allows access to a) jtag b) serial console c) usb Jan 09 11:42:49 mickeyl: sweet! Jan 09 11:43:16 the preproduction models already have that port, so i hope it'll stay in the production models Jan 09 11:44:47 mickeyl: what gtk touchscreen helper do you use? Jan 09 11:44:58 mickeyl: libgtkstylus, maemo-patch or custom? Jan 09 11:46:27 atm. libgtkstylus. on my agenda is adding a patch to support visual feedback Jan 09 11:46:48 ok Jan 09 11:47:13 mickeyl: I'm trying to figure out which hildon stubs I can safely add to OE's gtk+ Jan 09 11:50:05 mickeyl: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/bora/free/source/libgpsmgr_0.1-10.tar.gz looks usefull for openmoko Jan 09 11:50:20 "Application that needs GPS data can use this API to manage GPS daemon start Jan 09 11:50:20 and stop. This is needed in small handhelds where it is not good to have gpsd Jan 09 11:50:20 running all the time (because of battery and memory constraints) and to Jan 09 11:50:21 guarantee that only one gpsd process is running simultaneously even if multiple Jan 09 11:50:21 processes need the GPS data." Jan 09 11:54:07 yeah, we need something like that as well, although I'm leaning towards exposing things like that through a dbus interface. I need to talk to florian asap -- I need to start coding on devmand probably very soon Jan 09 11:54:48 heh Jan 09 11:54:55 I was just writing a mail to gpe@ about this Jan 09 11:55:00 * koen stops writing Jan 09 11:55:44 no, go ahead Jan 09 11:55:51 i can comment on that Jan 09 11:55:55 i have been looking at Jan 09 11:55:56 mickeyl: there was some disagreement between mallum and RP about moving zaurusd, and he adviced someone not working for a company contracted by nokia to copy it it ltg Jan 09 11:56:10 s/it it/it to/ Jan 09 11:56:11 koen meant: mickeyl: there was some disagreement between mallum and RP about moving zaurusd, and he adviced someone not working for a company contracted by nokia to copy it to ltg Jan 09 11:56:49 http://svn.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/gnome-power-manager/trunk/docs/dbus-interface.html Jan 09 11:56:58 i would like to use this as RFC Jan 09 11:57:04 then gather input (very quickly) Jan 09 11:57:05 yes Jan 09 11:57:06 and start coding Jan 09 11:57:14 g-p-m also has brightness stuf nowadays Jan 09 11:57:36 i just thought it would be nice to have it a bit more common, i.e. Jan 09 11:57:39 use Jan 09 11:57:47 http://hughsient.livejournal.com/11986.html Jan 09 11:57:49 org.freemsmartphone. Jan 09 11:57:53 etc. Jan 09 11:58:06 to make it easier for kde and qt folks using this interface ;) Jan 09 11:58:30 mickeyl: I want power and backlight support atleast - so my progear will get it Jan 09 12:00:15 for sure Jan 09 12:01:23 there is lid switch in progear but my lack lid cover and I cant find lid switch in case so I ignore it Jan 09 12:01:59 mickeyl: reply to "Re: [Gpe-list] gpe-conf 0.2.3 release?" Jan 09 12:02:40 ok Jan 09 12:02:47 i guess it's time for me to subscribe to gpe anyway Jan 09 12:03:06 http://lists.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/gpe-list/2007-January/000152.html Jan 09 12:03:10 thanks Jan 09 12:03:12 * mickeyl reads Jan 09 12:03:40 * mickeyl waits for ltg Jan 09 12:03:43 *tap* Jan 09 12:03:45 *tap* Jan 09 12:03:47 *tap* Jan 09 12:03:56 kaboom! Jan 09 12:04:35 mickeyl: I wonder why apache is so slow on ltg Jan 09 12:04:42 ssh connects immediately Jan 09 12:05:50 It is ridiculously slow.. Jan 09 12:06:13 koen: maybe 96 people just clicked on that link thinking it might be a neo release announcement ;-) Jan 09 12:06:58 * koen blaims it on linux 2.6.8 Jan 09 12:07:46 :) Jan 09 12:08:19 hehe Jan 09 12:25:04 for all the people wanting to have a camera in their phone: http://web.mac.com/aaronandpatty/iWeb/What%20the%20Duck/Comic%20Strips/3F4194CD-04A1-48C4-878A-6073CEC92603_files/WTD125.gif Jan 09 12:28:41 Hehe Jan 09 12:29:30 cute Jan 09 12:29:38 * koen hugs his 4MPix dslr Jan 09 12:32:13 hehe Jan 09 12:33:13 mickeyl: btw, the omap2420 iva can encode mpeg4 at 30fps Jan 09 12:33:22 mickeyl: using closed ti codecs, of course Jan 09 12:35:33 At VGA even? Jan 09 12:35:39 koen: yeah, is there any serious USB camera? (with reasonable price) Jan 09 12:35:40 afaik, yes Jan 09 12:35:59 usb? Jan 09 12:36:12 * koen hugs the firewire plug on his camera Jan 09 12:36:42 mickeyl: will v2 have firewire? Jan 09 12:40:12 koen: http://www.engineerlive.com/homepage/features/12243/3g--is-your-application-processor-really-necessary.thtml Jan 09 12:40:20 hrh Jan 09 12:40:22 heh Jan 09 12:40:24 firewire Jan 09 12:40:27 crazy Jan 09 12:40:47 koen: linux support for it too? Jan 09 12:40:49 I thought it was dying out.. Jan 09 12:41:23 that probably depends on how ethernet shapes in the near future Jan 09 12:41:36 firewire is still the preferred interface for audio and video, but that could change with new protocols over IP Jan 09 12:41:54 latency and jitter being the issue here Jan 09 12:42:07 which is -- naturally -- uncontrollable yet over the ethernet MAC Jan 09 12:42:14 s/naturally/by design/ Jan 09 12:42:14 mickeyl: use ethernet over firewire :) Jan 09 12:42:15 mickeyl meant: which is -- by design -- uncontrollable yet over the ethernet MAC Jan 09 12:43:35 http://lists.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/gpe-list/2007-January/000153.html Jan 09 12:45:41 *yawn* Jan 09 12:45:45 any news from MacWorld yet? Jan 09 12:45:53 it did start today didn't it? Jan 09 12:46:07 it did Jan 09 12:46:16 good. Jan 09 12:46:17 any news yet? Jan 09 12:46:20 or it will Jan 09 12:46:24 * mickeyl crosses fingers they won't announce a phone Jan 09 12:46:29 USA still sleeping Jan 09 12:47:10 I wanna have my fullscreen tactile 60gb ipod video :) Jan 09 12:47:38 * koen is interested in the iTV Jan 09 12:48:49 grrr Jan 09 12:49:08 I hate it when the person doing the payments is on holiday Jan 09 12:49:15 the _only_ person Jan 09 12:50:23 if the itv can decode mpeg4-avc at 1080i i might get one Jan 09 12:50:51 if it cant, well theres other things that can't do it either which likely are easier to use with linux Jan 09 12:52:03 id like to see an opensource media player that can do it Jan 09 12:52:45 and use the neo as remote control hehe Jan 09 13:31:56 Soon 100 ppl here :) Jan 09 16:29:45 hmm, does anyone know if the n770/n800 ships a usable calendaring app or if there is an opensource one? Jan 09 16:33:06 yes, no, yes Jan 09 16:33:54 which one do you recommend, koen? :) Jan 09 16:34:07 on the nokia? Jan 09 16:34:10 gpe-calendar Jan 09 16:34:37 yes, on the nokia Jan 09 16:34:45 * xorAxAx compares it to datebk Jan 09 16:35:07 datebk won :) Jan 09 16:35:18 is there nothing more flexible? :) Jan 09 16:37:20 nope Jan 09 16:37:52 so its completly unusable :) Jan 09 16:39:00 why? Jan 09 16:39:21 it can read all my .ics files from webdav Jan 09 16:39:48 because datebk has 10 times more features, and i use many of them Jan 09 16:40:10 so install datebk Jan 09 17:14:56 mickeyl: FIC is screwed, apple released the iphone Jan 09 17:15:04 and some 'internet navigator' Jan 09 17:15:26 weeee, i want to have the iphone!!1111one Jan 09 17:15:46 Jan 09 17:27:24 anyone following Jobs' keynote ? He's showing the iPhone Jan 09 17:27:34 yep Jan 09 17:27:37 160dpi Jan 09 17:27:37 lame Jan 09 17:27:39 ;) Jan 09 17:27:39 quite impressive (althought not free of course) Jan 09 17:28:23 might tide me over until I can get the FIC phone Jan 09 17:29:23 I was ready to buy the FIC the day it is released, but the iPhone knows how to talk to my weaknesses :D Jan 09 17:30:20 (the fact OSX is beginning to annoy me can help FIC stand a good chance :)) Jan 09 17:30:57 looks nice enough, http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/01/dsc_0182.jpg Jan 09 17:31:22 'slide to unlock' Jan 09 17:32:14 http://media.macrumorslive.com/p/1168365431.jpg Jan 09 17:32:22 http://media.macrumorslive.com/p/1168364939.jpg Jan 09 17:32:29 images of the iphone Jan 09 17:33:53 OMG Libre Software God, if you exist, deliver me from the temptation Jan 09 17:34:26 I see no other option than to get both of them. Jan 09 17:35:15 lol Jan 09 17:36:07 koen you said 160dpi is lame, I can't find the fic's dpi on the press information, what is it already ? Jan 09 17:39:51 http://www.macrumorslive.com/ - openmoko's competition (prolly mentioned to death already) Jan 09 17:39:52 Active Area (HxV) 43.2 X 57.6 mm Jan 09 17:39:52 Number of Dots (HxV) 480 x RGB x 640 dot Jan 09 17:39:52 Dot Pitch (HxV) 0.03 X 0.09 mm Jan 09 17:41:01 18:56:41 < koen> 160dpi Jan 09 17:41:01 18:56:42 < koen> lame Jan 09 17:41:16 an awesome product, but not likely to be open enough for my tastes Jan 09 17:41:30 i agree Jan 09 17:41:53 winmobile is going to hurt tho Jan 09 17:42:03 winmobile??? Jan 09 17:42:07 they're using winmobile? Jan 09 17:42:07 micke1 thanks but I don't feel like converting this data into dpi :D Jan 09 17:42:14 no, OSX Jan 09 17:42:27 Sufflope: ~280 i think Jan 09 17:42:29 yeah... that's what i mean... winmobile is going to get it's ass kicked Jan 09 17:42:38 ah right Jan 09 17:42:41 i hope so :) Jan 09 17:43:03 koen: so who is right? Jan 09 17:43:34 160 for the MacPhone Jan 09 17:43:35 ? Jan 09 17:44:23 I guess I'll have to spend a few hours deliberately looking at OSX and iTunes' problems I'm fed up about, to resist to this iPhone :D Jan 09 17:44:52 yeah ;) Jan 09 17:45:50 and OpenMoko will have to give its best too :D Jan 09 17:46:18 yeah, it's pretty much 280 Jan 09 17:46:34 just recalculated Jan 09 17:46:50 thanks Jan 09 17:47:46 impressive, iPhone's pictures look quite beautiful, with almost half dpi Jan 09 17:47:59 160 dpi is still good... i wonder if they're both 480x640 Jan 09 17:48:19 hummm... lemme work that out Jan 09 17:48:50 it's widescreen so i can't :P Jan 09 17:48:56 heh Jan 09 17:49:50 i don't agree with their decision to leave out a keyboard though Jan 09 17:50:01 (yes, i didn't agree with FIC's decision as well, but who am i .... :)) Jan 09 17:50:09 it's REALLY sexy... I guess vargr was right, I'll have to get both :-D Jan 09 17:52:02 yeah, and I've got a feeling it (and openmoko phones) will be a heck of a lot more developer-friendly than all the ones we've been struggling with in the past Jan 09 17:52:31 here's to the end of all the awful lock-in! Jan 09 17:54:03 I am myself no developper, but I have a dying Smartphone running Windows Smartphone Jan 09 17:54:04 anyone seen video of the iPhone, and can comment in comparison to the upcoming OpenMoKo interface? Jan 09 17:54:36 it's a real pain since I deleted my last Windows partition so an open phone with an SSH client would be a dream :D Jan 09 17:54:39 apple went along *some* of the same lines Jan 09 17:54:48 i.e. all screen, only one button... Jan 09 17:54:56 yeah so i read Jan 09 17:55:06 how about expected base applications? Jan 09 17:55:17 for the iPhone : Mail, Safari,.... Jan 09 17:55:20 how about *eye candy* which is such a trademark of OS X Jan 09 17:55:22 it's running OSX Jan 09 17:55:49 don't know if Exposé will be available :D Jan 09 17:55:57 how will the OpenMoKo eye candy be, considering we're starting with a "new" WM? Jan 09 17:56:31 How about processing power etc, which is better, the FIC 1973 or the iPhone? Jan 09 17:56:56 iphone has a multi-touch screen and it sounds like they're using it a lot. and the iphone *has* to have much more processing power to do all this Jan 09 17:57:05 does the OpenMoKo/FIC have a booth at CES? Jan 09 17:57:06 mickeyl: "slide to unlock" Jan 09 17:57:36 yeah I would think so (more processing power), but will it be lower cost when its all done? :( Jan 09 17:58:03 What is multi-touch? hit more than one place at a time, like using a [shift] key or something? Jan 09 17:58:27 yeah, usual touchscreen can only sense one finger Jan 09 17:58:44 and touchpads had multisscreen for years Jan 09 17:58:58 a usual TS interpolates between multiple touches Jan 09 17:59:06 s/interpolates/averages/ Jan 09 17:59:06 koen meant: a usual TS averages between multiple touches Jan 09 17:59:16 gotcha Jan 09 17:59:19 koen: are you sure that your driver isnt doing that? Jan 09 18:00:16 is the FIC/OpenMoKo at CES? Jan 09 18:00:22 xorAxAx: it's true that tslib isn't for multitouch, yet Jan 09 18:00:31 xorAxAx: but atm it's an hardware issue Jan 09 18:00:33 I have this daily wishfulthinking where I look at the topic and read Direct-Sale World Wide and not the rest :P Jan 09 18:00:34 many touchscreens don't work well with multiple fingers simply because of the technology they use to detect Jan 09 18:00:50 lol sannes :) Jan 09 18:02:01 koen: i mean synaptics touchpads Jan 09 18:02:16 that apple phone looks god eh. Jan 09 18:02:22 good! not quite god like Jan 09 18:03:13 Unfortunatly I return to the hard reality of www.openmoko.org still asking me to stay tuned.. Jan 09 18:03:39 I was waiting for a mac <=12" laptop, maybe at the end ? :D Jan 09 18:03:53 I'd sell my 15" mbp in a hardbeat Jan 09 18:04:00 any price on the iphone? seems sweeeeet Jan 09 18:04:04 what is this about the iphone, any links? Jan 09 18:04:07 (mostly because the 15" doesn't fit in my camera bag) Jan 09 18:04:09 http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-apple-iphone/ Jan 09 18:04:19 http://www.macrumorslive.com/ Jan 09 18:04:21 the prices are coming Jan 09 18:04:23 i love my 15" mbp. i wouldnt sell it. Jan 09 18:04:38 you'd have to prize it out of my cold dead bloody fists Jan 09 18:05:12 I'm fed up with big laptops (a 15" quite good with well-supported hardware under Linux aside from that) Jan 09 18:05:24 can the apple-iphone run openmoko then? Jan 09 18:05:30 sannes lol Jan 09 18:05:32 I still love my previous 12" powerbook Jan 09 18:05:34 probably not Jan 09 18:06:08 feed://keynote.mac4ever.org/rss/index.xml if there is any french speaking person here :) Jan 09 18:06:20 MACHINE=apple-iphone bitake openmoko-image :) Jan 09 18:06:42 can i write apps for it in xcode though!!!! im guessing not!!! Jan 09 18:07:01 for the iphone? Jan 09 18:07:02 you can Jan 09 18:07:25 * mickeyl adores his 12" thinkpad x60s Jan 09 18:07:25 this IS the competition for openmoko Jan 09 18:07:43 awesome! Jan 09 18:07:48 mickeyl: no dvi, so it's useless for my desk Jan 09 18:08:03 buz_ I would say the iPhone is the competition for Windows Mobile Smartphones Jan 09 18:08:16 in that case it is competing cos i wont buy an openmoko this month if i can write apps for an iphone in xcode Jan 09 18:08:16 that's no contest at all Jan 09 18:08:16 symbian is competition for winmobile Jan 09 18:08:20 this phone *looks* like fic's phone Jan 09 18:08:27 the iphone looks like it's currently in class of its own Jan 09 18:08:35 timtimred: you can write apps for openmoko in xcode as well Jan 09 18:08:36 (and i'm decidedly NOT an apple fanboy) Jan 09 18:08:45 * koen wrote gpe-fsi in xcode Jan 09 18:09:02 koen: yeah but i'd not do that kind of thing in xcode Jan 09 18:09:14 too mcuh initial fannying aroung :) Jan 09 18:09:17 around Jan 09 18:09:33 still no price for the iPhone Jan 09 18:09:44 rumors talk about 499-599$ Jan 09 18:10:18 yeah i can't see this being much less unlocked Jan 09 18:10:32 maybe a cingular version'll be less (subsidies and all) Jan 09 18:10:41 hm, my phone has to be open source, or else I can't look down on other people .... Jan 09 18:11:32 sannes that's a point indeed Jan 09 18:11:50 Greetings Jan 09 18:12:00 any leaks yet? :-) Jan 09 18:12:59 Has there been a projected price of the second version of the fic Jan 09 18:13:32 omfg the itv costs 300usd? Jan 09 18:13:35 gimme gimme gimme Jan 09 18:13:44 thats basically a mac mini Jan 09 18:14:25 kousi: no, the hw isn't even spec'ed yet. I think it'll be at in the 600-800 category, since it'll a fully loaded beast. Jan 09 18:14:35 ah Jan 09 18:14:46 When I see how iTunes sucks I am greatly disinterested in Apple TV :) Jan 09 18:14:53 yeah, allegedly wifi/bluetooth/touchscreen etc. pp. Jan 09 18:14:55 Makes me sad... Jan 09 18:15:28 Sufflope: yeah, however, if that is really a x86 box (and intel prolly doesnt supply anymore arm, right?) this is essentially a very cheap neat linux box Jan 09 18:15:40 and even if its something else, it'll be weeks before it runs mythv Jan 09 18:16:07 kousi: v1 will be a huge experiment and we need to concentrate on making that a success :) v2 is in the minds of marketing, but not in the minds of engineering Jan 09 18:16:12 omg the iphone is so thin... can we have that, FIC? lol Jan 09 18:16:12 buz_: indeed I didn't see this side of the story... interesting, finally :) Jan 09 18:16:23 if that thing is really 300$ Jan 09 18:16:29 i'm soooo preordering one today Jan 09 18:17:21 do they have iphone hardware? or is this really just vaporware? Jan 09 18:17:24 Right, how is the iphone going to affect sales of the 1973?... as the iphone has wifi built in...(a must have in my opinion, though I would certainly buy a 1973 over an iphone....because....open source...and all yay) Jan 09 18:18:12 here comes the apple phone price! Jan 09 18:18:16 4gb iphone is 500$ Jan 09 18:18:17 I would hate to see this type of 'experiment' stifled... Jan 09 18:18:22 i might just lose 800usd today Jan 09 18:18:25 vaporware ? Jobs has been playing with an iPhone for the past 30 minutes Jan 09 18:18:33 4gb ? i want more! Jan 09 18:18:40 8G for 599 Jan 09 18:18:43 shipping in june Jan 09 18:18:47 perfec! Jan 09 18:18:57 ok right Jan 09 18:19:00 june in terms of apple means august. maybe Jan 09 18:19:02 now where can i order the apple tv Jan 09 18:19:06 Both shipping in June or just the 8? Jan 09 18:19:17 ok we'll have Fic's second phone before the iPhone :D Jan 09 18:19:18 both as i'm told Jan 09 18:19:34 ok fic, now you know, we want 3mpixel cam and wifi Jan 09 18:19:41 and the Apple Store still closed... :D Jan 09 18:19:48 is FIC really that close to a second hardware platform? I agree, WIFI is a **need** Jan 09 18:20:03 i'm pragmatic Jan 09 18:20:06 well the camera should be on THIS one already... Jan 09 18:20:11 not until June? Jan 09 18:20:14 gimme a phone that does everything i want and i will buy it Jan 09 18:20:20 I'll have 3 FIC phones by then Jan 09 18:20:23 (unless it runs on winmobile, then it cant do what i want) Jan 09 18:20:37 quite same here Jan 09 18:20:46 how many models of this phone are there going to be? Jan 09 18:20:55 Psi_: which one Jan 09 18:20:58 but free software would be even greater Jan 09 18:20:59 iphone or neo? Jan 09 18:21:08 neo Jan 09 18:21:25 just one for starters Jan 09 18:21:25 "FCC approval takes 2 months" how is FIC doing here?? Jan 09 18:21:42 jthomas: it is believed the gsm chip being preapproved should speed it up Jan 09 18:21:50 4GB model - $499 Jan 09 18:21:51 OK, the iPhone in Europe by the end of 2007... bye iPhone, welcome Neo :) Jan 09 18:21:53 buz_, any idea how long after the first one it will be before the 2nd model? Jan 09 18:21:54 cool! when is it for sale? Jan 09 18:22:06 Psi_: nobody knows Jan 09 18:22:27 \gonna order my phone as soon as the store comes up! Jan 09 18:22:29 jthomas: *sniff* ETA January *sniff* Jan 09 18:22:35 or it'll go back *months* Jan 09 18:23:00 i dunno... not that I want the apple phone, but how are we going to compete? we need Wifi, Camera, GB of storage... Jan 09 18:23:15 and we're already at $350 (expected) Jan 09 18:23:44 jthomas: 8G of storage will cost about 50$ in june Jan 09 18:23:45 $350 unlocked... if tmo takes it it'd be <=$199 Jan 09 18:23:51 (on contract) Jan 09 18:23:55 you cant compete cause FIC dont buy as much flash memory as apple Jan 09 18:23:56 cbpage: they cant Jan 09 18:24:04 and other stuff Jan 09 18:24:05 :D Jan 09 18:24:08 timtimred: i can buy 2G of flash for 15USD RETAIL RIGHT NOW Jan 09 18:24:11 openness is great for us, but most want solidness and OSX is pretty solid... Jan 09 18:24:25 and flash prices have halfed each 6 months for the past years Jan 09 18:24:30 you can sure. but you gonna get a better price than apple? Jan 09 18:24:32 the sooner we get hold of the openmoko SDK, the better the software it'll have by the time the iphone is available Jan 09 18:24:38 timtimred: doesnt really matter Jan 09 18:24:41 the iphone doesn't have an fpga Jan 09 18:24:47 i'm prepared to pay premium for a open phone Jan 09 18:24:48 and no v8 Jan 09 18:24:50 nor a v8 Jan 09 18:24:50 i wonder if it will be possible to use lazarus to write apps for the phone Jan 09 18:24:54 if it DOES what i WANT Jan 09 18:24:55 mjr: :) Jan 09 18:25:17 koen: looking at the interface, you'll need a v8 generator to power it Jan 09 18:25:30 oh wait Jan 09 18:25:34 anyway, good that fic'll have at least the timing drop on apple... Jan 09 18:25:40 the 599$ for the iphone means a 2 year cingular contract Jan 09 18:25:43 yeah Jan 09 18:25:50 screw that Jan 09 18:25:59 screw you apple Jan 09 18:26:04 I've never been tied into a cellphone contract and i'm not starting now. Jan 09 18:26:09 i'd pay 500USD without thining a second Jan 09 18:26:12 but not 800USD Jan 09 18:26:28 and cingular looks to be exlcusive cell vendor Jan 09 18:26:37 phone contracts here == free/cheap mobile Jan 09 18:26:44 500usd = 500 euro Jan 09 18:26:49 ~change 500 usd to eur Jan 09 18:26:49 koen: BZZZT Jan 09 18:26:55 500.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 384.404 Euro (EUR) (from http://www.xe.com/) Jan 09 18:26:56 ~change 500 eur to usd Jan 09 18:27:01 500.00 Euro (EUR) makes 650.357 United States Dollar (USD) (from http://www.xe.com/) Jan 09 18:27:03 xorAxAx: in practice it is Jan 09 18:27:04 that's what they usually sell for when exported tho Jan 09 18:27:22 (never mind that they come from china) Jan 09 18:27:35 the iphone probably costs about 350USD to make Jan 09 18:27:38 thats a different story Jan 09 18:27:38 apple have a plant in ireland too. Jan 09 18:27:43 for manufacturing. Jan 09 18:27:51 prices in dollar usually get changed with a rate of 1:1 here in Europe (we must be richer than US people !) Jan 09 18:28:00 Sufflope: no we pay more taxes Jan 09 18:28:10 ? Jan 09 18:28:15 timtimred: not even for european market they produce any product i've seen in switzerland in china Jan 09 18:28:27 Sufflope: ~19% vat for most of EU Jan 09 18:28:30 <9% for us Jan 09 18:28:41 I mean, a computer sold 1000$ will be sold 1000€ here Jan 09 18:28:48 buz_: its in cork in ireland. ive been there. promise :) Jan 09 18:28:53 yeah partly because of the taxes Jan 09 18:28:57 have they closed it yet tho? Jan 09 18:29:01 or they state 'import taxes' Jan 09 18:29:09 they *used* to have factories in the us afterall Jan 09 18:29:17 tariffs are actually not such a big component anymoe Jan 09 18:29:20 when i went there they were churning our imacs Jan 09 18:29:23 <5% on normal goods Jan 09 18:29:24 tho Jan 09 18:29:42 well well well I think taxes are a perfect scapegoat Jan 09 18:30:09 uhm you do realize that if taxes are 10% more you WILL pay at least 10% more? Jan 09 18:30:24 oh yeah after googling it might be closed!!! Jan 09 18:30:38 what might be closed Jan 09 18:30:43 cork plant Jan 09 18:31:06 they cut 33% in 1999 Jan 09 18:31:19 aye. last time i did apple work was >6 years ago. Jan 09 18:31:30 so my knowledge is somewhat out of date Jan 09 18:31:31 everybody knows that apple employs small childs in asia Jan 09 18:31:40 :) Jan 09 18:31:55 buz_: I didn't know about such low taxes... I must be wrong, I'll wait till the next review about price discrepencies to figure it all out :D Jan 09 18:33:16 I'm guessing there has been no more news about the hardware, leaked photos or anything? Jan 09 18:33:19 (on cellular contracts, in here tie-in contracts have been outright banned for quite a while; they have made a limited time exception with 3g phones to drive adoption, though...) Jan 09 18:33:22 Sufflope: well we do pay somewhat more here Jan 09 18:33:25 Just wait until the 31st? Jan 09 18:33:31 just not exactly as much more as most think Jan 09 18:33:54 finally, no ultra small laptop ? I'm quite disappointed Jan 09 18:35:07 apple somehow doesnt get that i dont want to lug around 2.5kg everyday Jan 09 18:35:50 Steevie, please could you make the iPhone a bit larger and put a keyboard on it ? :D Jan 09 18:36:15 mjr: in .fi, everybody has a mobile anyway ... :) Jan 09 18:36:30 does $599 include the 2 year contract? :D Jan 09 18:36:37 timtimred: yes Jan 09 18:36:42 as in paid for? Jan 09 18:36:43 no selling your soul is on top of it Jan 09 18:36:54 in the price? Jan 09 18:36:54 xorAxAx, true Jan 09 18:37:04 well, it includes the 2y bind, not the monthly paiments :D Jan 09 18:37:14 definite advantage to the neo there Jan 09 18:37:19 i wonder what uk telco they will use. Jan 09 18:37:24 2yr contracts is so US... Jan 09 18:37:32 now add cam and wifi to neo and it will hold up just fine Jan 09 18:37:34 ... or europe - 8 years Jan 09 18:37:35 well i get contract phones because it works out cheaper. Jan 09 18:37:58 if you want new phones the *only* way to get non crap phones here is to get a contract or pay some stupid price. Jan 09 18:38:04 no, in France you often have 2y contracts too, to have cheaper phones (but you can have shorter contracts of course) Jan 09 18:38:43 Sufflope: yeah. my k800i this year was free, because of a contract Jan 09 18:39:20 ah well, cheap video ipod for me Jan 09 18:39:42 no computer, no leopard Jan 09 18:39:44 so sad Jan 09 18:40:15 leopard isnt due. Jan 09 18:40:23 Okay, Apple's keynote was depressing. Jan 09 18:40:24 the itv looks like it IS a computer Jan 09 18:40:35 not till later this year Jan 09 18:41:01 Do we have an accelerometer in the OpenMoko phone? That stuff looked awesome. Jan 09 18:41:09 now gimme back that apple shop Jan 09 18:41:19 i wanna know what the thing ocsts in switzerland Jan 09 18:41:41 buz_: its an imac Jan 09 18:41:51 I didn't talk about Leopard or laptops due, but about what I would have liked to see :) Jan 09 18:42:02 buz_: 1000 CHF :) Jan 09 18:42:15 xorAxAx: core 2 duo mac mini is cheaper than that Jan 09 18:42:20 buz_: hmm Jan 09 18:42:34 i meant mac mini, yes Jan 09 18:42:46 i can get it for about 800 chf now Jan 09 18:42:49 which is a good price Jan 09 18:42:52 if you need it Jan 09 18:42:55 minis arnt core 2 yet :( Jan 09 18:42:56 which i dont Jan 09 18:42:59 are they? Jan 09 18:43:04 who cares Jan 09 18:43:13 its not like you use a mini for rendering or some such Jan 09 18:43:26 the end Jan 09 18:43:30 and the store is open Jan 09 18:43:31 ok Jan 09 18:43:42 Sufflope: swiss store still down Jan 09 18:43:43 damnit Jan 09 18:43:48 err no sorry :D Jan 09 18:43:49 you are right! not being a graphic artist i totally wouldnt Jan 09 18:44:08 confused by the slow refresh :D Jan 09 18:47:04 French store is up Jan 09 18:47:16 iTV 299€ Jan 09 18:47:50 (I wonder if educationnal discounts apply on it :D) Jan 09 18:48:25 yeah its up. and grinding. Jan 09 18:48:53 Sufflope: probably. they extend to ipods already :) Jan 09 18:49:04 shipped in February Jan 09 18:49:35 Sufflope: what country is that? Jan 09 18:50:26 buz_ they should do it everywhere Jan 09 18:50:52 France Jan 09 18:51:13 discount? Jan 09 18:51:18 429chf in switzerland Jan 09 18:51:21 thats tempting Jan 09 18:51:27 well, it's January 2007 Jan 09 18:51:30 not "omg wheres my credit card" Jan 09 18:51:37 wheres my openmoko!? Jan 09 18:51:39 =) Jan 09 18:51:53 pjz: it'll still be january 2007 on 31st Jan 23:59:59.99 Jan 09 18:52:23 true - is there any better ETA than 'January 2007' ? Jan 09 18:52:36 nope Jan 09 18:52:56 and... has anyone dug around on the FCC website to try and find the FCC license for the openmoko phone? Jan 09 18:53:04 ~change 429 CHF to EUR Jan 09 18:53:09 429.00 Franc (CHF) makes 265.913 Euro (EUR) (from http://www.xe.com/) Jan 09 18:53:20 yeah Jan 09 18:53:22 ~change 429 CHF to USD Jan 09 18:53:26 can you give me an IP for store.apple.com? Jan 09 18:53:27 429.00 Franc (CHF) makes 345.747 United States Dollar (USD) (from http://www.xe.com/) Jan 09 18:53:30 mine is down Jan 09 18:53:38 (akamai gives us all different IPs) Jan 09 18:53:57 wtf the AppleTV still costs 299€ on the education store :D Jan 09 18:54:07 TV's not educational =) Jan 09 18:54:15 Sufflope: they recently did away with edu pricing for non computing stuff Jan 09 18:54:16 iPod is ? :) Jan 09 18:54:51 enh, the only thing the edu guys get a good deal on is applecare Jan 09 18:54:58 well I'll have to wait the special store with bigger discounts (reserved to students to bot not the education one) to update :) Jan 09 18:55:00 everything else is cheaper thru a corporate account Jan 09 18:55:52 pjz: thats not strictly true Jan 09 18:56:11 if your university is worth anything, they can get discounts below corporate prices for back too school Jan 09 18:56:38 how much discount? corporate gets 10%, which is more than the standard educational discount Jan 09 18:56:42 also 299€ on that store ! end of golden days :D Jan 09 18:56:54 pjz: up to 25% in the past Jan 09 18:57:01 apple friends-n-family get 15%. wow, nice. Jan 09 18:57:17 well that is for peddling shitloads of stuff Jan 09 18:57:20 .nod Jan 09 18:57:43 one time i bought ibook g4 at 1212 chf when retail was 1499 Jan 09 18:58:06 so back to the openmoko - any news? fcc filings? Jan 09 18:58:29 I don't see how it's going to be released this month if it hasn't made it to the FCC yet. Jan 09 18:58:38 well Jan 09 18:58:42 in most of the world, there aint no fcc Jan 09 18:59:02 well, to be sold in the US it has to get tested Jan 09 19:00:00 can probably get away with selling telecoms development kits Jan 09 19:00:16 it's not a consumer device yet Jan 09 19:00:16 well, only 5% of people live in the US :D Jan 09 19:00:21 i wager to say the majority here is not in the us Jan 09 19:00:33 Sufflope: but, but - surely that's the top 5% that matter? Jan 09 19:00:42 not for cellphones Jan 09 19:00:47 european and asian markets are much more important Jan 09 19:01:01 the US is really backwater for cellphone sales Jan 09 19:01:01 * Stephmw baits buz_ some more Jan 09 19:01:46 Stephmw: mhh? Jan 09 19:02:12 buz_: I was yanking your chain - *of* course the US mobile market is prehistoric Jan 09 19:02:17 buz_: I'm in the UK Jan 09 19:02:18 ah Jan 09 19:02:38 ah now i read correctly ;= Jan 09 19:02:40 ) Jan 09 19:02:51 ;) Jan 09 19:03:00 Stephmw: of course only the top 5% matter ! that's why we don't bother about the US :) Jan 09 19:03:05 I should've remembered Jan 09 19:03:15 IP of store.apple.com please Jan 09 19:03:33 212.27.54.252 Jan 09 19:03:43 nice, thanks Jan 09 19:03:48 store.apple.com.akadns.net (17.254.3.42) as well Jan 09 19:04:26 LOL my mistake Jan 09 19:04:34 I gave you the DNS server adress Jan 09 19:04:45 I confirm 17.254.3.41 Jan 09 19:05:01 yeah, they use akamai Jan 09 19:05:43 hmm, their shops dont answer me Jan 09 19:05:52 might still be down Jan 09 19:06:10 then where did people get the prices? ":)" Jan 09 19:06:11 they work pretty well here Jan 09 19:06:27 xorAxAx: the keynote Jan 09 19:06:34 http://finance.google.com/finance?q=aapl interesting Jan 09 19:06:35 xorAxAx: check engadget Jan 09 19:06:37 ah, ok Jan 09 19:06:39 engadget? Jan 09 19:06:44 www.engadget.com Jan 09 19:06:49 tech blog Jan 09 19:06:56 lots of keynote photos Jan 09 19:08:12 i wonder what cpu there is in iphone Jan 09 19:08:34 that gui must be really cpu intensive Jan 09 19:10:12 hey Lars_G Jan 09 19:10:14 Hey Jan 09 19:10:23 I come here just to feel the love and hope Jan 09 19:10:33 lots of both Jan 09 19:10:39 ... and iphone drooling Jan 09 19:10:44 I'm fired up by the iPhone but hatefull of the cingular deal. Jan 09 19:10:45 need something to cheer yourself up after the Apple keynote? :) Jan 09 19:10:50 yep Jan 09 19:10:56 Lars_G: yah, exclusive contracts suck Jan 09 19:11:06 and afterall the Neo1973 is $240 cheaper. Jan 09 19:11:20 too sad it is not out yet and has no wifi. but I wait with bathed breath Jan 09 19:11:33 Lars_G: you're not comparing the unlocked price Jan 09 19:11:42 yes Jan 09 19:11:43 Lars_G: iphone will likely be over $900 Jan 09 19:11:47 we dont need to sell our souls to cingular Jan 09 19:11:54 I don't think they'll sell it unlocked Jan 09 19:12:01 not with such a close deal Jan 09 19:12:06 they'll pretty much have to in the EU Jan 09 19:12:22 of course, and leave me (in latinamerica) to rot :( Jan 09 19:12:39 Lars_G: international shipping... but it'll cost a bomb Jan 09 19:12:57 No, even when i would've preferred it to be Qt/E based rather than gtk2 (only for the prospect of getting opera 9.1 in it) I'll definitively go with OpenMoko Jan 09 19:13:07 I mean, I want devices I can modify to fix the stuff that chaffes me! Jan 09 19:13:17 * Stephmw nods Jan 09 19:13:20 that's why i had linux on the ipaq before it was stolen, and I run rockbox on my iPod Jan 09 19:13:24 Lars_G: i venture to say we will get opera nonetheless Jan 09 19:13:48 buz_: Well, if we use GTK2 here, we use X11 too. Jan 09 19:13:55 yes Jan 09 19:14:00 we can easily compile Qt 3 or 4 for x11 on the device Jan 09 19:14:05 and there is an embedded opera for arm that links against qtx11 Jan 09 19:14:10 exactly Jan 09 19:14:14 the problem would be convincing opera to release an ARM compile. Jan 09 19:14:20 they will Jan 09 19:14:34 Yes but currently the arm opera is a deal to OEMs directly (much like fucked up netfront) Jan 09 19:14:41 * Lars_G crosses his fingers. Jan 09 19:14:46 i think they will release it Jan 09 19:14:49 maybe not for free Jan 09 19:14:54 but you will be able to get it Jan 09 19:15:00 Also, with Qt or GTK here on the OpenMoko, we can use the great new PhoneMe in it Jan 09 19:15:03 they have always been very supportive of OS platforms Jan 09 19:15:05 Oh I'd pay for it. Jan 09 19:15:23 so would i Jan 09 19:15:25 Evening people. Jan 09 19:15:31 I have a question, since it says there might be OpenMoko minds in here. Jan 09 19:15:43 Why particularily Matchbox? not that I dissagree, it's a sweet wm Jan 09 19:16:37 buz_: What I see harder but we MIGHT manage I pray, is a deal with realplayer. to at least be able to get a buyable mpeg/realplayer codec to hook to an helix copy compiled to the OpenMoko Jan 09 19:17:06 Is the apt-get derivate based off apt-get or off ipkg? Jan 09 19:18:23 will the battery life of the iphone be ipod like Jan 09 19:18:28 i.e. recharge twice daily? Jan 09 19:18:52 5hrs supposedly, 2 days standby Jan 09 19:19:02 yeah right Jan 09 19:19:02 With what kind of use? Jan 09 19:19:10 music play takes a BIG toll on the battery Jan 09 19:19:18 wait until you play videos ;-) Jan 09 19:19:18 that screen must suck juice like nothing Jan 09 19:19:24 yea Jan 09 19:19:25 and the gui as well Jan 09 19:19:33 not the gui but the processors Jan 09 19:19:45 with a full OS X there. ah well, quartz alone will suck the cpu dry Jan 09 19:20:18 i dont believe one second that there is osx on this thing Jan 09 19:20:20 2 days standby. :-( Jan 09 19:20:24 IMO it's OSX branded - but I can't see it being a trimmed osx Jan 09 19:20:52 On the keynote it says it's "full" OS X Jan 09 19:20:55 Stephmw - The 2 days standby is for the neo? Jan 09 19:21:04 Elrond: for the iphone Jan 09 19:21:08 Elrond: keep up :) Jan 09 19:21:12 Ahh. Jan 09 19:21:22 Any info on standby for neo? Jan 09 19:21:25 It's sad about wi-fi for the Neo Jan 09 19:21:37 it's all the fault of Broadcom's sucky driver policy Jan 09 19:21:48 Lars_G: i dont buy that Jan 09 19:21:58 personally i think it's engineering issues Jan 09 19:22:06 I don't think it is. Jan 09 19:22:12 Engineering wifi is not THAT hard Jan 09 19:22:33 bluetooth is easier and we still dont know for sure if it will have it (likely so though) Jan 09 19:22:34 buz_ - The FIX engineers seem to have done a good job, at leat, from what I can read on the archive. Jan 09 19:22:59 s/FIX/FIC/ Jan 09 19:22:59 Elrond meant: buz_ - The FIC engineers seem to have done a good job, at leat, from what I can read on the archive. Jan 09 19:23:19 what i dont really understand is the lack of camera Jan 09 19:23:24 good cameras are hard Jan 09 19:23:26 i know Jan 09 19:23:31 So, Sean Moss is OM's dad? Jan 09 19:23:36 but people still buy htc's crap cams Jan 09 19:24:04 buz_ - Di yiz really want a crap cam in there for an extra $100 or so? Jan 09 19:24:08 s/.*/I am the king of the world!/ Jan 09 19:24:15 for 100$ i want a good cam Jan 09 19:24:21 hehehe I killed the bot? Jan 09 19:24:26 Elrond: camera sensors cost more like $3 in bulk. Jan 09 19:24:31 heck i can get halfway usable digicams for 50USD Jan 09 19:24:36 COMPLETE ones Jan 09 19:24:40 cjb - including lens, etc? Jan 09 19:24:42 buz_: that's the problem Jan 09 19:24:49 buz_: at the necessary size? Jan 09 19:24:55 buz_: Micro CMOS cameras are much much harder to make Jan 09 19:25:03 Elrond: yeah. Jan 09 19:25:09 buz_ - I rather want more battery live. Jan 09 19:25:12 you can get big cameras for cheap. Not micro ones. Jan 09 19:25:43 uhm small sensors are cheaper than big ones no? Jan 09 19:25:52 Elrond: having a camera doesn't waste any battery life unless you tell v4l (or whatever) to turn the sensor on and start reading from it. Jan 09 19:26:56 What about the ImCoSys? Jan 09 19:27:09 Lars_G: i literally live 15km from imcosys away Jan 09 19:27:14 i called them a few weeks back Jan 09 19:27:19 and? Jan 09 19:27:21 that must be the unfriendliest tech company ever Jan 09 19:27:26 :O Jan 09 19:27:30 no itnerest at ALL in selling phones if you ask me Jan 09 19:27:40 I'm thinking on dying with a motorola A1200 for now Jan 09 19:28:09 At least they didn't make me jump thorough hoops to get the source off the page Jan 09 19:28:39 imcosys supposedly charges several 10K for the sdk Jan 09 19:28:46 :O Jan 09 19:28:47 right Jan 09 19:29:02 (not that they would actually answer anything like that on the phone) Jan 09 19:29:26 * jjazz can't find imcosys source code on the website Jan 09 19:29:46 well they dont have to put the kernel on their site Jan 09 19:29:56 cjb - It wastes battery life by wasting space. --> smaller battery. Jan 09 19:30:18 Elrond: then please explain me the HOLE in the case of neo Jan 09 19:30:23 buz_: How do you think they're distributing source? Jan 09 19:30:32 customers only Jan 09 19:30:34 or something like that Jan 09 19:30:56 buz_: It's possible. Jan 09 19:31:02 buz_ - Huh? Where did you see a "HOLE?"? Jan 09 19:31:31 I hax0red the CNC on the production lin3 Jan 09 19:31:33 :-D Jan 09 19:31:36 that white thing Jan 09 19:31:39 looks weird to me Jan 09 19:31:45 i always thought that was a hole Jan 09 19:31:47 Elrond: boggle. okay. Jan 09 19:31:49 and asked myself WHY Jan 09 19:31:57 below the fic logo Jan 09 19:32:16 so you can attach it to your keys Jan 09 19:32:26 bottle opener Jan 09 19:32:27 the whole phon eis only 2 inches long -D Jan 09 19:33:40 cjb - Anything below 10 days standby isn't acceptable for a phone to me. Jan 09 19:33:49 get a motofone then Jan 09 19:33:56 the motorola E680i is tempting too Jan 09 19:33:57 i dont think theres a smartphone like that Jan 09 19:34:04 Elrond: :O Jan 09 19:34:11 motorola? wont touch that stuff with 10 foot pole Jan 09 19:34:12 Elrond: Do you work in the field or something? Jan 09 19:34:16 buz_: why Jan 09 19:34:22 ghastly software Jan 09 19:34:30 shaky hardware Jan 09 19:34:31 as in interface? Jan 09 19:34:35 as in everything Jan 09 19:34:42 very very bad ui Jan 09 19:34:45 lousy features Jan 09 19:34:49 weird behavior Jan 09 19:34:53 I disagree there, I've found them to have a great hardware make Jan 09 19:35:00 thats based on razr and v360 Jan 09 19:35:03 yes I agree with the UI problems.... Jan 09 19:35:12 but if the Ui itself is OSS..... Jan 09 19:35:12 oh and the razr is unbearably slow Jan 09 19:35:29 the UI on the EZX phones isnt OSS for all i know Jan 09 19:36:21 Lars_G - I've really better things to do in my live then feeding my phone. ;) Jan 09 19:36:26 buz_: Right, it isn't that what we will use OpenMoko for. :) Jan 09 19:36:33 Hmm, so any estimates on standby for the neo? Jan 09 19:36:41 i thought openezx still didnt really work Jan 09 19:36:53 you can use openmoko gui on a phone that has no hardware support Jan 09 19:38:14 buz_: selfcompiled 2.4 is running fine. 2.6 will make big steps further in the next weeks. Jan 09 19:38:40 oh Jan 09 19:38:49 but still, no moto phone with wifi Jan 09 19:39:01 (the ming at least has a cam though) Jan 09 19:39:13 what does the ming cost, anyway Jan 09 19:39:44 ca. 370$ Jan 09 19:39:51 No wifi, right Jan 09 19:40:22 so it's qvga and cam vs no cam but vga and gps Jan 09 19:41:35 a780 has cam, qvga and gps Jan 09 19:42:18 but it's oooold Jan 09 19:42:24 Anyway, it will still take some time until the EZX phones are useful with free software Jan 09 19:42:43 old, but faster cpu then neo1973. :) Jan 09 19:42:59 the keypad could be handy Jan 09 19:43:08 and it does edge Jan 09 19:43:53 * stefan_schmidt never use the keypad. Jan 09 19:43:53 lol the a780 is 699 chf in switzerland Jan 09 19:44:07 ~change 700 chf to usd Jan 09 19:44:12 700.00 Franc (CHF) makes 563.934 United States Dollar (USD) (from http://www.xe.com/) Jan 09 19:44:30 ~change 700 chf to EUR Jan 09 19:44:37 700.00 Franc (CHF) makes 433.767 Euro (EUR) (from http://www.xe.com/) Jan 09 19:45:12 gah Jan 09 19:45:17 at that price, i rather get a neo Jan 09 19:45:21 wow, that high. Last time I have it seen for 350Eur. But there are two versions one with gps and one without Jan 09 19:45:26 ~change 700 chf to vbe Jan 09 19:45:31 ~change 700 chf to vbs Jan 09 19:45:34 700.00 Franc (CHF) makes 141,159.95 Dollar (ZWN) (from http://www.xe.com/) Jan 09 19:45:38 700.00 Franc (CHF) makes 141,159.95 Dollar (ZWN) (from http://www.xe.com/) Jan 09 19:45:45 what? xwn??? Jan 09 19:45:46 oh yes Jan 09 19:45:49 of course, neo is preferred Jan 09 19:45:49 ~change 700 chf to veb Jan 09 19:45:57 700.00 Franc (CHF) makes 1,209,700.75 Bolivar (VEB) (from http://www.xe.com/) Jan 09 19:45:57 that's our currency, sorry Jan 09 19:46:01 holy f.... Jan 09 19:46:20 is the Neo still expected to come out at $350? Jan 09 19:46:35 yes Jan 09 19:46:40 you know I'll really really miss wifi and cam on the neo Jan 09 19:46:47 stefan_schmidt: the things can be had for about 300USD on ebay Jan 09 19:46:48 specially cam, since wifi can be a real battery leech Jan 09 19:47:17 if i can turn off wifi, thats no issue Jan 09 19:47:37 like the v-click Jan 09 19:47:40 * stefan_schmidt has two a780 and one ROKR E2 in front of it right now. :) Jan 09 19:47:40 which seems to be a rebranded gw1 Jan 09 19:47:52 the GW1 is reportedly barely useable Jan 09 19:48:01 (which fits considering that the greenphone is not) Jan 09 19:48:17 buz_: btw, the case of neo has a hole. Jan 09 19:48:24 i knew it Jan 09 19:48:24 WHY? Jan 09 19:48:43 or more importantly, is there anything below the hole Jan 09 19:48:43 so you can hang it on coat hooks Jan 09 19:48:46 buz_: with "greenphone is not" you mean it's not usseable? Jan 09 19:48:48 or can we get rid of it Jan 09 19:48:54 Lars_G: most definitely not Jan 09 19:48:56 even trolltech says so Jan 09 19:49:09 lanyard, marketing stuff Jan 09 19:49:36 ok if the case is empty below the hole, i'm SOOO gonna get rid of the case Jan 09 19:49:49 that's just stupid Jan 09 19:50:04 the phone would be much smaller without Jan 09 19:50:19 I still wonder what will happen with ALP Jan 09 19:50:38 Well the good thing is the phone is OSS Jan 09 19:50:48 or is there antenna below the thole? Jan 09 19:50:49 if i really really really need a cam, or wifi, i can solder one in Jan 09 19:50:57 and spend months making it work Jan 09 19:51:00 that i very much doubt Jan 09 19:51:06 why do you doubt it? Jan 09 19:51:17 because so far we dont know if any GPIO is available Jan 09 19:51:18 I doubt they'll use %100 of the gpios on the main proc. Jan 09 19:51:35 yeah but if they are somewhere inside the PCB it's gonna be very painful to get to them Jan 09 19:51:36 * stefan_schmidt tries to remember what is i?under the whole. hmm, I forgot it. Jan 09 19:51:55 if that is empty, can we get another case that is actually as big as the phone? Jan 09 19:52:09 Only would be impossible if they're not wired to nought and nowhere and the cpu's BGA Jan 09 19:52:13 otherwise it's all possible. Jan 09 19:52:16 it won't be pretty Jan 09 19:52:18 but it's doable Jan 09 19:52:26 epoxy and duct tape Jan 09 19:52:32 kind of. yes Jan 09 19:52:33 Lars_G: I heard about an debug port with usb Jan 09 19:52:37 and crazy glue Jan 09 19:52:51 stefan_schmidt: That would solve wifi if the cpu supports host mode Jan 09 19:53:02 or a bigger case were we can hide usb wifi Jan 09 19:53:20 the cpu has one host mode port Jan 09 19:53:26 but thats probably the one that goes to the outside Jan 09 19:53:48 and theres some reports about BT on another usb Jan 09 19:54:01 And not everybody like to solder cable for data and vcc Jan 09 19:54:24 if it goes outside, it has traces Jan 09 19:54:26 i find the oval design somewhat weird anyhow Jan 09 19:54:35 if it has traces on the pcb, I can hook stuff to them Jan 09 19:54:48 I mean, I've friggin soldered stuff over PLASTIC traces once. Jan 09 19:54:58 heh Jan 09 19:54:58 with the chance of killing the only way to recharge the phone yes Jan 09 19:55:05 to fix a broken trace in the digitizer film for a Palm III Jan 09 19:55:22 Of course you can do all that, but most people don't do it. Jan 09 19:55:31 Oh I don't expect them to do it. Jan 09 19:55:36 You see I'm selfish this way. Jan 09 19:55:43 It's ok Jan 09 19:55:48 I don't expect everybody from benefiting from my experiments. Jan 09 19:55:53 Your risk, your fun. :) Jan 09 19:56:17 I just want the original maker not try to fuck me severely for toying with the device I BOUGHT, and if someone else takes the same risk as me, and enjoys the results, then all the cooler Jan 09 19:56:25 a somewhat larger shell that could hide an usb stick could be useful Jan 09 19:56:50 instead of a frigging hole Jan 09 19:56:58 no need to hide a full stick, in many wifi sticks there's a considerable (though not HUGE) part of empty casing Jan 09 19:57:14 essentially thats what i mean yes Jan 09 19:57:17 Also if i'm going to solder the thing point to point, the usb connector itself is going out of there Jan 09 19:57:37 i wonder if there are mini usb wifi sticks Jan 09 19:57:40 There was some space inside the case, but I'm not sure if an dismantled usb wlan would fit. And of course I'm not sure if it was the final case. Jan 09 19:57:42 There are. Jan 09 19:57:48 where? Jan 09 19:57:53 let me search Jan 09 19:58:22 stefan_schmidt: and saddly one thing I do NOT have yet, is a vacum molder to make my own modded case Jan 09 19:58:33 there might be the issue of getting 5V DC though Jan 09 19:58:35 I want to make one, but I keep postponing it. Jan 09 19:58:48 mhh theres company that do custom modling Jan 09 19:58:56 not cheap but not outrageously expensive either Jan 09 19:59:12 buz_: if the external connector is Host mode, it MUST produce the 5Vdc, though it's only forced to do so at a low amperage Jan 09 19:59:26 it's unpowered Jan 09 19:59:35 wifi eats batteries Jan 09 19:59:44 jjazz: yup, and big time. Jan 09 19:59:44 GPRS eats money Jan 09 19:59:49 buz_: bigger time Jan 09 19:59:55 exactly Jan 09 19:59:56 buz_: in here it's friggin expensive Jan 09 20:00:20 here too Jan 09 20:00:21 Is the phone gprs only? Jan 09 20:00:26 I had a talk with mickeyl about cases. One with brushed metal would be sweet, but we were not sure about problems with RF stuff Jan 09 20:00:28 It's GSM too, right? Jan 09 20:00:34 If i only talk, and I talk normally, I can get along with $7 a month. Jan 09 20:00:36 gsm yes Jan 09 20:00:52 for gprs, I pay $8 for 10Mb a month, and that's because it's cheaper than not pay it Jan 09 20:00:52 Regardless, I don't pay for cell service Jan 09 20:01:02 oh i would want the brushed metal Jan 09 20:01:05 if rf can be made to work Jan 09 20:01:11 it'd be a nightmare I think Jan 09 20:01:15 (nokia can do it) Jan 09 20:01:17 to make the rf work Jan 09 20:01:21 dude, nokia is nokia Jan 09 20:01:29 sure Jan 09 20:01:33 shouldn't someone put up a competition on guessing the release timestamp? .. heh Jan 09 20:01:36 whathever you think of them, they've been doing stuff with waves for ages now. they know what they do Jan 09 20:01:48 i think they make good phones actually Jan 09 20:02:00 unlike apple :-) the mac laptops with metal cases have terrible wifi range Jan 09 20:02:07 and they certainly have the best gui (think of the toolkit however you may) Jan 09 20:02:09 Meh I like their construction, but I find their UI is geared thowards teenagers which aggravates me. Jan 09 20:02:21 stefan_schmidt: for ideas about RF interaction and metal cases, look at the Vertu range from Nokia Jan 09 20:02:24 S60 S3 looks sharp to me Jan 09 20:02:32 also nokia 8850 Jan 09 20:02:50 Personally I'm more of a Siemens GUI myself, more suited to my mindset, but I can't grab a siemens phone in my hand without it breaking to pieces Jan 09 20:03:02 siemens gui? does it get any worse than that? Jan 09 20:03:12 (no wonder they're bankrupt) Jan 09 20:03:23 So I went with the second best. SonyEricsson, which is like buying products from a genius nazi fascist Jan 09 20:03:29 yes Jan 09 20:03:34 and i wont do it again Jan 09 20:03:45 I love the phones. Hate their policies and methods Jan 09 20:04:24 awwwwwwww Jan 09 20:04:34 "From analysis by Groklaw it seems that SCO may owe Novell nearly all the SCOSource licensing fees, and has been hiding the fact for 3 years. Imminent. Inevitable. Bankruptcy." Poor, poor missunderstood people Jan 09 20:04:39 I hope they ROT IN HELL Jan 09 20:04:48 ROOOOOOFL Jan 09 20:04:52 poor SCO! so misunderstood Jan 09 20:05:22 they sure had it coming Jan 09 20:05:40 they just wanted some money, .. poor company .. :P Jan 09 20:06:00 buz_: and saw it, it was all a ruse to fatten the shares and bail. Jan 09 20:06:13 and they didn't care if the company burned to ashes after they bailed Jan 09 20:06:16 of course it was Jan 09 20:06:34 its not like sco actually had anything they could sell Jan 09 20:07:59 * buz_ keeps waiting for the OSS wifi phone Jan 09 20:08:43 Well again. the v-click is a dual mode, based off the GW1 Jan 09 20:08:52 * wiml wonders what the apple iphone thing means for the neo1973 Jan 09 20:09:40 the GW1 is not an open source phone Jan 09 20:09:40 i'm not quite sure yet - the neo's cheaper and unlocked, but not as powerful hw-wise Jan 09 20:10:38 iPhone is another scope. Designer and Apple fans, no OSS geeks. Jan 09 20:10:52 yeah, the markets aren't fully overlapping Jan 09 20:11:17 noooow, openmoko on the iphone.... Jan 09 20:11:22 plus neo should have a significant time to market advantage Jan 09 20:11:35 * [g2] things there should be an "iphone" skin for the openmoko Jan 09 20:11:44 i dont think so Jan 09 20:11:53 thats just holding the door open for apple lawyers Jan 09 20:11:55 [g2] you can make one ;) Jan 09 20:12:17 yeah, Apple has aggressively defended its whole LookAndFeel Jan 09 20:12:31 do they though? kde has os x themes Jan 09 20:12:37 and gnome Jan 09 20:12:37 yah, one of the consequences of apple going the same way physical interface-wise is that somebody will surely copy their UI on FIC Jan 09 20:12:50 um, on Neo Jan 09 20:12:53 which isnt half bad Jan 09 20:13:05 if that person lives outside the us, chances is he'll live Jan 09 20:13:15 timtimred: small time, in comparison. There was one done for Windows too. Lawyers landed when it went on sale. Jan 09 20:13:15 <[g2]> lol Jan 09 20:13:38 ah selling. im thinking about free ones. Jan 09 20:13:43 so sell it from allofapplegui.ru Jan 09 20:14:08 buz_: naw, .ru is gonna be invaded by the US under RIAA guidance because of allofmp3.com Jan 09 20:14:09 'course, it'd probably be not a very good idea for FIC to ship a particularly Appleized GUI :] Jan 09 20:14:16 but it'll happen Jan 09 20:14:27 as long as fic doesnt do it themselves Jan 09 20:14:30 no problem for them Jan 09 20:15:11 yeah Jan 09 20:15:19 anyone here work with FIC's hardware people? I think it would be great to have manufactured a USB wifi dongle that runs on a AA battery as an accessory for the Neo 1973, give us all some wifi-g on these phones... Jan 09 20:15:56 timtimred: where is an os x like gnome theme? Jan 09 20:16:02 jthomas: i agree Jan 09 20:16:05 (not that it should be Apple's business to harass lookalikes, but well, they do seem to like it nevertheless) Jan 09 20:16:14 it'd be a niche product but much appreciated Jan 09 20:16:26 mjr: apple==microsoft with sense of style Jan 09 20:16:31 timtimred: the difference is apple has enphatized how many pattents they applied for the iphone Jan 09 20:16:41 buz_, it'll only be as niche as these phones are; anyone who wants a phone will want the wifi... Jan 09 20:16:52 xorAxAx: in google! Jan 09 20:16:53 buz_, yes, I'm aware Jan 09 20:17:18 <[g2]> anybody hear what the screen resolution is on the iphone ? Jan 09 20:17:25 gmome-look or something Jan 09 20:17:28 oops Jan 09 20:17:36 they look crap though Jan 09 20:17:41 apple can stick their patents where the sun doesnt shine Jan 09 20:17:53 buz_ hates apple lol ;) Jan 09 20:17:54 timtimred: art.gnome.org is not very good Jan 09 20:17:54 the very fact that you can patent looks of things is wrong Jan 09 20:18:00 xfce has an OSX look too, check out Dream Linux. So does KDE but I forget its name... Jan 09 20:18:02 timtimred: so i didnt find those first Jan 09 20:18:20 timtimred: sort of, that 500USD ipod had its battery die on me in 8 months Jan 09 20:18:33 (i still keep recommending macbooks to family) Jan 09 20:18:38 whats the 1973 battery deal? user-replacable? Jan 09 20:18:45 doh. still easily replaced these days though. Jan 09 20:18:46 and i got a shuffle for xmas which i like (the soundchip is bad though) Jan 09 20:19:02 that was in the days of the 3G ipod Jan 09 20:19:09 batteries were few and far between Jan 09 20:19:28 i had a 2g one. i still have it :) Jan 09 20:19:28 the ipod actually still works Jan 09 20:19:34 battery replaced obviously Jan 09 20:19:40 (which is very surprising considering how bad it looks) Jan 09 20:19:55 mine is scratched to hell Jan 09 20:20:07 yeah mine crashed in all kinds of places Jan 09 20:20:24 the hd is quite definitely much more resilient than the battery Jan 09 20:23:30 mhhh how small could a battery powered usb stick realisticall bee Jan 09 20:24:46 obviously one could skip the usb connector and go mini usb Jan 09 20:25:21 anybody knows where the usb port is located? Jan 09 20:26:46 when i come to think of it, if the phone is charged through usb, there is some connection to the battery from usb right? Jan 09 20:27:00 now thats likely 3.6V? Jan 09 20:27:25 you could hack a battery onto a linux supported usb wifi device Jan 09 20:27:29 easily Jan 09 20:27:31 :) Jan 09 20:27:36 sure you could Jan 09 20:27:51 but its bigger than if you could somehow hack a 3.6V usb thingy Jan 09 20:28:16 and convince the phone to send 3.6V directly to the usb port Jan 09 20:29:31 <[g2]> the screen res on the iphone is only 320x480 Jan 09 20:29:42 mhh Jan 09 20:29:50 thats not wide? Jan 09 20:30:07 <[g2]> "openmoko: twice the pixels half the price" Jan 09 20:31:40 heh Jan 09 20:32:13 <[g2]> the accelerometers are a good ide Jan 09 20:32:15 <[g2]> idea Jan 09 20:32:28 to make light sabre noises yes Jan 09 20:32:31 <[g2]> however, I think there should be a lock switch Jan 09 20:33:29 in hardware yes Jan 09 20:34:21 <[g2]> and when you unlock the switch while the phone is ringing it should automatically answer Jan 09 20:34:36 oh no please no Jan 09 20:34:42 i want to keep the busy signal Jan 09 20:35:02 and if i could chose, i also want the "reduce rf output until the call drops" feature Jan 09 20:35:28 hahaha Jan 09 20:35:38 that would indeed be a killer feature Jan 09 20:35:43 why not just introduce white noise into the voice stream and kill the connection? Jan 09 20:35:44 a feature everyone would enjoy Jan 09 20:36:06 mhh that would be the poor mans way of doing it Jan 09 20:37:07 http://www.oberkommando.org/asus_wl-167g/antenna_hack/pics/DSC00132.html widely available and with good linux support Jan 09 20:39:57 buz_: Without the usb plug it's not that big, but I doubt it will fit into the case. Jan 09 20:40:22 without power it's not really useful inside the case anyway Jan 09 20:40:46 " you could hack a battery onto a linux supported usb wifi device" PLEASE DO and sell me one Jan 09 20:40:53 yes Jan 09 20:41:05 if it's in somewhat reasonable size, i will buy one Jan 09 20:41:55 * stefan_schmidt sees a market for selling battery powered usb sticks with mini-usb plug. :) Jan 09 20:42:05 so do i Jan 09 20:42:24 now i just need a chinese odm to make them ;) Jan 09 20:43:06 so do we all, lets ask FIC to make them please!! Jan 09 20:43:23 and bundle them with the neo Jan 09 20:43:27 jthomas: I doubt the will do. Jan 09 20:43:29 BUT rather than make the interface an OSX clone, why not make it just good? Jan 09 20:44:51 if fic wont do it, we can still ask asus to fit the wl-167g with battery (has a ralink chip inside) Jan 09 20:45:16 (and fic definitely wouldnt like THAT) Jan 09 20:45:40 i am an apple fanboy, but i agree with jthomas. there's no reason the osx interface is particularly well suited for phones. just make a killer phone gui. Jan 09 20:46:06 * wiml wants accelerometers on the neo. accelerometers are cool. also, some piezo gyros. Jan 09 20:46:47 "and fic definitely wouldnt like THAT" why not? either they do it, or someone else does Jan 09 20:47:20 "make a killer phone gui" with eye candy to make osx fans drool Jan 09 20:47:36 because asus is on all fronts a competitor of fic Jan 09 20:47:44 aah thanks ;) Jan 09 20:48:15 and considering asus has done some marvelous linux wifi stuff, they just might jump on the bandwagon Jan 09 20:48:24 wiml: Yes, accelerometers could be cool. /me thinks about the wii remote control. :) Jan 09 20:48:53 come to think of it, the wii gui is awfully OSX/Aqua-like. Jan 09 20:49:00 hmmm you've seen the iPhone's UI shots? it looks both very cute and usseable Jan 09 20:49:10 wiml: yes, the Wii itself looks like an Applw product too. Jan 09 20:50:22 I'm not talking about the guy, but only the remote instead. Nice hardware. Jan 09 20:50:43 * wiml agrees Jan 09 20:58:57 anyone have their hands on the Neo 1973 yet? how is that hardware? Jan 09 20:59:16 jthomas: only the devs Jan 09 21:00:01 and they likely arent allowed to tell Jan 09 21:01:47 lars_g seen the GUI animations? Jan 09 21:01:54 the GUI does look pretty impressive Jan 09 21:02:04 hard to imagine the battery life being reasonable Jan 09 21:02:06 GUI on iPhone, or Neo? Jan 09 21:02:42 iphone Jan 09 21:02:57 although the NEO looks surprising close Jan 09 21:03:00 slightly smaller screen Jan 09 21:03:04 and thicker Jan 09 21:03:25 yeah thicker for sure, on the prelim specs Jan 09 21:03:41 but better resolution i read (here on irc) Jan 09 21:04:03 and without wifi and bt Jan 09 21:04:33 bt? Jan 09 21:04:51 without wifi :( without camera :| with linux :) Jan 09 21:04:51 bluetooth Jan 09 21:04:54 ah Jan 09 21:05:06 any word on bt in the neo? Jan 09 21:05:47 cbpage - The press/index mentions bt. Jan 09 21:06:31 http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html no it doesn't mention bt Jan 09 21:06:32 Elrond: not that I can see. Jan 09 21:06:50 it was still being discussed last time i heard Jan 09 21:06:58 they know darn well people want it though ;) Jan 09 21:07:13 it might be nice but i would like wifi more Jan 09 21:07:34 both! Jan 09 21:07:34 wow Jan 09 21:07:34 there are some things you can't do with wifi that you can with bt though Jan 09 21:07:36 apple is 1/2 the pixels of the openmoko Jan 09 21:07:37 headsets, keyboards... Jan 09 21:07:43 GPS Jan 09 21:07:45 and vice versa; i just find wifi more useful for me Jan 09 21:08:09 google, email, ssh all from most anywhere Jan 09 21:08:18 spikebik1: where are the gui animations? Jan 09 21:08:18 for computer<->neo comms bluetooth can be set to PAN mode, which is like ehternet... then you can do away with dialing Jan 09 21:08:24 *from the computer... Jan 09 21:08:42 http://www.apple.com/iphone/ Jan 09 21:08:51 for what they're charging it should have *at least* vga Jan 09 21:08:52 spikebik1: oh, didn't realise you were talking about the iphone Jan 09 21:09:25 the iphone GUI is impressive, especially for 1/2 the pixels Jan 09 21:09:30 cjb - Huh, you're right. Jan 09 21:09:47 oh wow look at all the people Jan 09 21:09:48 hello Jan 09 21:09:54 500$ for 4gb, 600$ for 8gb Jan 09 21:09:57 with verizon contract Jan 09 21:10:05 if anyone from the company is here, i got cash to burn and waiting to buy this thing :) Jan 09 21:10:05 er cingular Jan 09 21:10:05 rumours say Jan 09 21:10:15 not rumors Jan 09 21:10:15 * holycow hopes it ends up being quad band Jan 09 21:10:29 iphone is quad band Jan 09 21:10:39 what is iphone? Jan 09 21:10:39 holycow, we're all hoping to get one soon :) Jan 09 21:10:49 iphone is apple's new toy Jan 09 21:11:04 think openmoko, but 1/2 the pixels, and months later Jan 09 21:11:09 uh, iphone isn't that a something actually owned by another company? Jan 09 21:11:18 cisco wasnt it? Jan 09 21:11:19 I guess they bought the rights Jan 09 21:11:22 cisco has an iphone Jan 09 21:11:22 launched last week? Jan 09 21:11:24 yeah cisco/linksys Jan 09 21:11:32 cisco, oh right Jan 09 21:11:33 if you look at the logo they may have gotten around that by trademarking [apple]iPhone Jan 09 21:12:08 if it becomes a real problem they might do what they did with iTV->[apple]TV Jan 09 21:12:11 i love the whole bit about linux and open source on the moko Jan 09 21:12:30 i'm so tired with dealing with all the motorola garbage or whatnot, i'm willing to gamble at this point ;) Jan 09 21:12:41 i'm fine with the moko being a relative niche product for a while - let's have fun with it... production's pretty much assured by the chinese winmobile version Jan 09 21:12:47 ;) Jan 09 21:13:18 so in china they are doing a winmobile but here they are doing the open source thing? Jan 09 21:13:24 weird, isn't it usually the other way around? Jan 09 21:13:24 yeah - very similar/same hw Jan 09 21:13:45 i could see them moving over eventually though Jan 09 21:13:46 yeah usually we get screwed with the windows Jan 09 21:13:46 hehe, fun. Jan 09 21:13:49 oh neat, Jan 09 21:14:08 i also think t-mobile us *could* want it eventually, since they'll need something better than winmobile to compete with iPhone Jan 09 21:14:23 (unless microsoft can *massively* improve winmobile in <=1yr) Jan 09 21:14:33 yeah plus Neo1973 can use the current TMobile SIMS chip Jan 09 21:14:40 i run all linux, i just hope it will allow a nice bridge to integrate with my desktop Jan 09 21:14:48 tmobile will want cam Jan 09 21:14:51 likely wifi as well Jan 09 21:14:52 even unlocked phones now cannot really run apps without buying a dev kit and such Jan 09 21:14:54 yeah Jan 09 21:15:05 they won't take this version... :P Jan 09 21:15:11 also they might be in too close with HTC Jan 09 21:15:13 qt greenphone looks cool, i just don't know if one can plug it into the cel network and go Jan 09 21:15:19 hc - you could Jan 09 21:15:25 really? Jan 09 21:15:26 rumor is fic and htc are somehow entangled anyway Jan 09 21:15:28 ah! Jan 09 21:15:43 (if thats really the case, then when do we get a vga Tytn with openmoko) Jan 09 21:16:09 well the qt costs like $800 Jan 09 21:16:09 fic and htc might both be largely owned by formosa plastics Jan 09 21:16:11 so is via Jan 09 21:16:11 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8591201260.html Jan 09 21:16:42 qt is meant for devs who wanna make the apps; the software will later run on a cheaper phone (is the hope) Jan 09 21:17:11 if formosa has controlling stake in htc, can they please force htc to release docs on their phones??? Jan 09 21:17:35 (not sure how exactly it would hurt htc if i buy a phone from then to run linux on anyway) Jan 09 21:18:12 mhh dlink is insane right? 6'' Jan 09 21:18:18 600$ for the v-click? Jan 09 21:19:00 dlink can't write firmware, i know that much Jan 09 21:19:22 cbpage, hehe Jan 09 21:19:41 dlink ddoses ntp servers Jan 09 21:20:17 used to. Jan 09 21:25:58 <[g2]> !convert 4000 yuan to usd Jan 09 21:26:12 <[g2]> ~convert 4000 yuan to usd Jan 09 21:26:31 <[g2]> where's the bot when you need it ? Jan 09 21:26:40 lol Jan 09 21:26:47 All the bots are out dancing. Jan 09 21:27:01 [g2]: you need the correct acronym Jan 09 21:27:05 They dance very well, but only know one move. (I'll let you guess which one) Jan 09 21:27:11 $512 = 4000 yuan Jan 09 21:27:21 (thanks google search) Jan 09 21:27:22 ~convert 4000 cny to usd Jan 09 21:27:30 broken Jan 09 21:27:36 ~load module communism Jan 09 21:27:43 <[g2]> heh LOL Jan 09 21:29:20 <[g2]> jthomas thx Jan 09 21:29:27 np Jan 09 21:29:29 ~change 4000yuan to usd Jan 09 21:29:32 that doesn't look right Jan 09 21:29:37 ~change 4000 yuan to usd Jan 09 21:29:43 4,000.00 China Yuan Renminbi (CNY) makes 512.558 United States Dollar (USD) (from http://www.xe.com/) Jan 09 21:29:45 "but only know one move" the Lindy Hop? Jan 09 21:30:00 <[g2]> stefan_schmidt nice :) Jan 09 21:30:03 ~botcookie Jan 09 21:30:06 :-P Jan 09 21:30:32 ~install kim il jung Jan 09 21:30:46 ~install kim-il jong Jan 09 21:32:24 <[g2]> jthomas you don't read chinese do you ? Jan 09 21:32:51 nope sorry Jan 09 21:33:03 what do you have? Jan 09 21:33:04 [g2]: google does Jan 09 21:33:15 lol Jan 09 21:33:15 * [g2] is trying to figure out if the 17.... is a 17 inch monitor included in the price here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/09/dell_linux_china/ Jan 09 21:33:26 yeah i saw that! Jan 09 21:33:29 no idea, sorry Jan 09 21:34:17 probably so, what else could it be? Jan 09 21:34:27 well I can't think what else would have a 17 in it Jan 09 21:34:37 unless it is a CRT by standard Jan 09 21:35:24 and the TFT is "for illustration purposes only" :) Jan 09 21:35:31 <[g2]> well $512 for that system with a 17" monitor is a good price Jan 09 21:35:38 <[g2]> s/monitor/lcd/ Jan 09 21:35:38 [g2] meant: well $512 for that system with a 17" lcd is a good price Jan 09 21:35:53 yeah Jan 09 21:36:00 they don't have to ship them from the US ;) Jan 09 21:36:31 sorry, did not do the currency conversion :/ Jan 09 21:37:00 it's a good way to dump single core a64's ;) Jan 09 21:37:18 so if 4000Y = $512, does that mean it has 4000MB of RAM? ;) Jan 09 21:37:38 (i kid) Jan 09 21:37:50 yes but you can't address it unless you run RedFlag64 ;) Jan 09 21:37:59 daamn Jan 09 21:38:15 well all of it anyway :) before the pedants jump in :) Jan 09 21:39:45 the iphone seems not to hae gps, does it? Jan 09 21:39:57 that's somewhat surprising. Jan 09 21:39:57 have even Jan 09 21:40:13 but it know how close the user is to the phone *g* Jan 09 21:40:20 given the google maps integration. Jan 09 21:40:22 knows Jan 09 21:40:39 google maps come by safari Jan 09 21:41:30 I wonder whether it auto portrait-/landscape switch is nice or annoying Jan 09 21:43:49 I have been going through the mailing list archives today and there is a particular question about the AGPS that I was wondering if anyone knew for certain, do networks charge for AGPS ( can they? as in is it possible in the technology) if you don't pay for the network fees for it I assume it can fallback ( I know that this should be software controllable and therefore fixable) but I was wondering if anyone has any experience of AGPS as I have never Jan 09 21:43:49 used it before Jan 09 21:43:50 portrait/landscape on a camera is very nice Jan 09 21:44:46 shame appletv doesnt do location free like playback to the iphone. Jan 09 21:46:30 rev - i'm pretty sure that it's not network-dependent at least for basic fixes Jan 09 21:47:29 cbpage, that is what I assumed, I was just wondering if anyone had used it before because I haven't :) Jan 09 21:48:17 I get the impression that networks look on AGPS support as a revenue source, so it may be that the gpsd can't fall back easily Jan 09 21:48:43 also if it relies on ephemeris data being supplied by the network it might not be able to fall back "out of the box" Jan 09 21:48:54 all this is very vague, from the info on the mailing list Jan 09 21:48:55 hmm Jan 09 21:49:05 the GL chips get fixes without anything. Jan 09 21:49:37 so if my network wanted to charge for it it is a quick move and a link to a shell script with a sed parser on it :) Jan 09 21:49:49 AGPS is two things: 1. preloading the gps chip with almanac, ephemeris, time and coarse position. Jan 09 21:49:51 gamin: you mean they fall back but are faster when they get ephemeris data from the nwtroek? Jan 09 21:50:13 nwtroek = network Jan 09 21:50:22 2. getting this data somehow to the phone. one standard for that is defined in the OMA SUPL papers Jan 09 21:50:33 wiml: yes Jan 09 21:50:46 that is nice to know Jan 09 21:50:55 wiml: they claim to get a fix in less than 1sec with the data preloaded Jan 09 21:53:03 the website of GL is just one big pile of marketing BS, but their technical papers are pretty good. check here: http://www.globallocate.com/GlobalLocateIndoorGPS.pdf Jan 09 22:02:05 hello Jan 09 22:02:21 * Revmeupbaby waves Jan 09 22:03:03 in ##apple all the people are so exited about the iphone... Jan 09 22:03:20 hell, everyone HERE seems excited... Jan 09 22:04:01 I started to think about alll the ideas on the mailing list that I have read and they are all very cool. Jan 09 22:04:16 Then I started to think about which ones I would like Jan 09 22:04:25 All of them was the reply Jan 09 22:04:35 so I decided to be more pragmatic Jan 09 22:04:37 :) Jan 09 22:05:36 for the the Gen 1 device it sounds like we are not getting wifi :( a shame but not a show stopper for gen1 Jan 09 22:05:50 i know :( Jan 09 22:06:03 [g2]: I don't read Chinese, but I can read a little Japanese. From what little I can make out, it says 17 inch monitor Jan 09 22:06:41 but then I started thinking as a global phone different markets will have differing costs Jan 09 22:08:10 so in one market a network connection via BT might be a PITA but you might be able to get an all that you can eat GPRS connection Jan 09 22:09:10 then in other markets GPRS might be like gold dust but WiFI is everywhere Jan 09 22:09:13 yeah and you could use bt to get that gprs to your computer easier than any other phone Jan 09 22:09:14 yup Jan 09 22:09:58 Revmeupbaby: Where is there a GPRS buffet? Jan 09 22:10:06 lol Jan 09 22:10:08 hehe Jan 09 22:10:34 Apparently in the UK if I spend £80 a month for all that I can eat Jan 09 22:10:34 jjazz, here in Finland, at least Jan 09 22:10:46 not here in America, unfortunately. Jan 09 22:10:47 starting at €10/month Jan 09 22:11:00 10 euros a month is pretty cheap if you use it a lot Jan 09 22:11:36 i have all you can eat gprs from t-mobile in seattle Jan 09 22:12:19 they kept "forgetting" that they offered it but I eventually got it from them Jan 09 22:13:03 Interesting. Jan 09 22:13:06 because the Neo is a device that allows us to hook into the mobile networks to do lots of cools stuff it would be ace to address this with the apps and how they are classed, could you have a metatag for network usage? low medium and high with definitions or something ? Jan 09 22:14:13 I can almost see the need for outbound firewalling to stop my phone bankrupting me :) Jan 09 22:14:19 I'd rather have twice the pixels than wifi Jan 09 22:14:28 wifi over resolution Jan 09 22:14:44 and firewall please! ;) Jan 09 22:14:45 after all why do you need all the bits if you have a tiny screen Jan 09 22:14:58 terminal access Jan 09 22:15:14 spikebik1: stream mp3 to the phone? ;) Jan 09 22:15:22 i dunno i guess. can i have both? ;) Jan 09 22:15:23 why bother. Jan 09 22:15:33 I would hate to be FIC atm :) they will be getting the demands of geeks globally :) Jan 09 22:15:35 Just bluetooth sync your MP3's when near your home/work/laptop Jan 09 22:15:46 whats the point of a big screen with apps if they cannot connect to anything? Jan 09 22:15:55 the max for the I/O slot is 2GB? 4GB? Jan 09 22:15:59 email? nah. Web? nah. Jan 09 22:16:06 spikebik1: is bluetooth confirmed? Jan 09 22:16:09 I'd hardly call GPRS + bluetooth nothing Jan 09 22:16:13 calculator? weee. Jan 09 22:16:30 spikebik1: last I saw bluetooth looked unlikely Jan 09 22:16:41 doh, I hadn't heard that Jan 09 22:16:46 wifi is generally free, where as GPRS isn't Jan 09 22:16:53 flat rate GPRS around here is $20 ish Jan 09 22:16:54 if I'm charging the phone by usb anyway Jan 09 22:16:59 I will happily sync larger items that way Jan 09 22:17:01 gprs for the rest Jan 09 22:17:12 wifi would be good but *get the hardware out* Jan 09 22:17:25 I do google maps without using wifi or gprs Jan 09 22:17:50 hey if this is plugged into a computer's USB can it access the net? or do i have to setup internal routing tables to link USB to eth0 ? Jan 09 22:18:05 jt yes and yes Jan 09 22:18:09 I was wondering about the unpowered USB, now I am not an expert on this but I am damn sure I can make a sort of USB converter with battery powered injector with a few odds and ends and some AA batteries. it would not be pretty Jan 09 22:18:13 yes it works, yes it requires a config Jan 09 22:18:15 so net won't be simple :( Jan 09 22:18:19 Revmeupbaby: that exists already Jan 09 22:18:29 jthomas: computers aren't simple Jan 09 22:18:36 LOL no kidding Jan 09 22:18:42 yeep Jan 09 22:18:45 TV: the power for the USB? Jan 09 22:18:51 Revmeupbaby: yes Jan 09 22:18:54 thats why i love the linux, not simple but its open Jan 09 22:18:55 jtokash2: I do that with zaurus (bridge connection to usb) Jan 09 22:19:07 \o/ I don't have to burn my fingers! Jan 09 22:19:23 Revmeupbaby, usb power injector instructions are around the net; the nokia 770 has a similar usb connector so people have started hacking that Jan 09 22:19:37 Ah wonderful :) Jan 09 22:20:00 "similar usb connector" meaning its not a standard?? Jan 09 22:20:46 if a usb host doesn't supply power then it's not standard Jan 09 22:21:19 the usb host has to check if the power requirements are satisfyable Jan 09 22:21:34 hm. how about the connection type? (hardware/shape/pins) Jan 09 22:21:35 so if openmoko correctly answers "no power for you, jerk" Jan 09 22:21:43 then it doesnt work with a simple battery pack :) Jan 09 22:22:01 isnt usb power optional in the USB 2 spec not a requirement? Jan 09 22:22:13 doesn't matter since this is USB 1.1 Jan 09 22:22:19 that too? Jan 09 22:22:25 xorAxAx: I'm pretty sure there's a minimum power requirement, because the device needs to be able to draw enough power to tell the host how much power it needs :-) Jan 09 22:22:37 but really how different are the two that we couldn't get 2.0? I honestly don't know... Jan 09 22:22:45 wiml: yes, right, and there is a max as well Jan 09 22:22:54 as long as it doesnt have asked, it may only draw X mA Jan 09 22:22:58 yeah Jan 09 22:23:18 so if the moko won't even supply X mA (whatever that is, like 50 ma or something?) then isn't it noncompliant? Jan 09 22:23:32 yes, it would be noncompliant Jan 09 22:23:39 i guess Jan 09 22:23:45 jthomas, I was under the impression that USB 2 was more or less USB1.1 and USB2 High speed was the actual improvement Jan 09 22:24:06 too bad. adding any USB device will be bulky; having to add a powered hub will stink Jan 09 22:24:10 * Revmeupbaby is not a hardware expert Jan 09 22:24:23 Rev, i have no idea! but thats interesting Jan 09 22:24:27 it'll be in the spec http://www.usb.org/developers Jan 09 22:24:44 Revmeupbaby, actually thats exactly what it is i think Jan 09 22:25:22 rev: I think there are some tiny tiny changes between 1.1 and 2.0-without-high-speed but I don't know what they are Jan 09 22:25:41 jthomas: i recently got a self-powered HD Jan 09 22:25:48 that would work fine Jan 09 22:26:07 self powered HDD? cool Jan 09 22:26:11 i think the sony psp has the same kind of connector Jan 09 22:26:27 they use it to view photos, since the camera has it's own power Jan 09 22:26:43 so is the USB port USB-A or USB-B or USB-Sony-Mini ? Jan 09 22:27:44 cause i can see a dozen adapters and powerpacks needed just to plug in a keybd or something here... Jan 09 22:28:16 probably mini-b Jan 09 22:28:20 hm k Jan 09 22:28:34 (ala psp, n770, et al) Jan 09 22:29:42 so the Neo1973 acts like a slave device. Bummer. Jan 09 22:30:00 The big reason I've not got a 770 yet as well... Jan 09 22:30:09 well the mailing lists suggest host mode but without power Jan 09 22:30:22 no, it wont be an usb host Jan 09 22:30:27 nope? Jan 09 22:30:30 damn Jan 09 22:30:32 s/wont/will/ Jan 09 22:30:37 :) Jan 09 22:30:37 what kinda cable is needed for host mode though, if the other side is always USB-A ? Jan 09 22:30:41 xorAxAx meant: no, it will be an usb host Jan 09 22:30:47 make snese damnit! :) Jan 09 22:31:04 jthomas: that is not bound to the cable Jan 09 22:31:08 incidentally, 770 can also work as an unpowered host, similarly Jan 09 22:31:09 there's also "usb on-the-go" which is like a bisexual usb, can be either host or device, designed for things like cell phones. would be sweet Jan 09 22:31:11 i guess you can buy gender switchers Jan 09 22:31:24 won't buy that though Jan 09 22:31:29 suppose Jan 09 22:31:31 yeah me either Jan 09 22:31:51 i want this to work without all the craap that makes other phones useless! Jan 09 22:32:07 I have a bit of a beef with nokia's love-hate openness and freedom Jan 09 22:32:24 and without adapters that makes me look like the geek that i hide inside! Jan 09 22:32:28 yeah, i wouldnt want to buy a 770 either Jan 09 22:32:33 because they just released the 800 Jan 09 22:32:36 :) Jan 09 22:32:37 I suspect with v1 we will have to compromise a bit :) but I am in :) Jan 09 22:33:05 true but will v2 be that much redesigned? Jan 09 22:33:09 800 and openmoko pair up quite well Jan 09 22:33:17 I would hope v2 had wifi :) Jan 09 22:33:23 that they'll change the usb to BUSeful? ;) Jan 09 22:33:56 jthomas: I doubt you'll see powered usb on a handheld until battery tech improves dramatically Jan 09 22:34:17 one thing that I am interested in is that with a basic GPRS device that is always connected and totally customisable... and if you run a wen Jan 09 22:34:21 understandable, but if the power can come from the hub, then i just need to connector to be the correct type! Jan 09 22:34:27 web based service Jan 09 22:34:33 yeah, when will we see russian nuclear energy driven PDAs with a Z80 in them? :) Jan 09 22:34:47 then you have the ideal remote control for you web based app Jan 09 22:35:14 putting the mini-b connector in there makes it kinda limited. Not kinda; very, for us non-hardware hackers Jan 09 22:35:24 jthomas: I fear the same is true for wifi. Jan 09 22:35:26 jthomas: you can buy cables Jan 09 22:35:38 same for wifi huh? Jan 09 22:35:40 (although to a lesser degree) Jan 09 22:35:55 xorAxAx good to know, i'l lhave to look Jan 09 22:36:04 jthomas: Wifi is such a power hungry option that if cell phones had it, standby time would drop to rather poor levels Jan 09 22:36:08 rev: you can already do that with a (closed source) java midp phone, eg things like salling clicker which mostly goes over bt but I think it does internet stuff too Jan 09 22:36:09 mini-b makes sense since the whole world is then full of cables you can stick up your moko Jan 09 22:36:17 tbh I would love wifi on this but I am impressed the damn thing exists, I was looking at the Trolltech greenphone Jan 09 22:36:26 mjr: Ooooer missus. Jan 09 22:36:30 jthomas: It's possible to put wifi in the thing, I just don't expect it to work that well becuase it will eat too much power. Jan 09 22:36:33 jjazz: cell phones have it Jan 09 22:36:48 xorAxAx: Yes, they exist, but the power is an issue. Jan 09 22:36:56 jjazz gotcha Jan 09 22:37:20 the keynote and the iphone thingy: http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/j47d52oo/event/ Jan 09 22:37:20 anyone have any idea what the AGPS draw is? Jan 09 22:37:35 rev: ONE MILLION AMPERES Jan 09 22:37:37 as a lot of really cool ideas have it on all the time? Jan 09 22:37:41 oh sorry that's the railgun Jan 09 22:37:52 mrj i have a dozen of the mini-b cables, but if the other end doesn't connect to a keybd or to my linksys ethernet adapter, wtf? but xorAxAx said there are cables, so... Jan 09 22:37:56 I thought it was the taser Jan 09 22:38:02 wiml, including the little finger :) Jan 09 22:38:09 Caution: do not operate rail gun and taser simultaneously Jan 09 22:38:16 :) Jan 09 22:38:18 (they are on opposite ends of the device) Jan 09 22:38:54 jthomas, those aren't the things you _usually_ want your phone hooked up to, even if it'll be possible now Jan 09 22:39:05 the reason was, that because of the draw of wifi you could have turn off if it was not in range of friendly networks Jan 09 22:39:28 * jjazz is waiting for power over wifi. Jan 09 22:39:57 bjoernb_: not getting a stream (timing out) Jan 09 22:40:09 Stephmw: youtube has it Jan 09 22:40:33 jjazz: oh yeah ;) Jan 09 22:40:46 Stephmw: i have also problems, but i am using debian with firefox and mozilla-mplayer. Jan 09 22:41:09 jjazz, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3251 Jan 09 22:41:15 gotta go, peops. thanks for the info! i cannot wait for this! Jan 09 22:41:37 bjoernb_: same setup Jan 09 22:41:45 bjoernb_: on gentoo Jan 09 22:42:09 i saw a lot of info about networks but does the v2 get an camera? Jan 09 22:42:15 mjr: Thanks :) Jan 09 22:44:11 jjazz: no joy on youtube/gvideo Jan 09 22:44:49 Stephmw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Uo_4kyrkDc Jan 09 22:45:37 jjazz: ahhh... no mention of iphone or apple in the title... Jan 09 22:45:43 * Stephmw grumbles Jan 09 22:46:57 jjazz: bah, that one's a hoax... "Green iPod" ;) Jan 09 22:47:23 Stephmw: Is it? I didn't watch it. Heh. Jan 09 22:47:55 man, akamai is struggling under the load Jan 09 22:53:31 re Jan 09 22:58:45 still the keynote crashes Jan 09 22:59:53 gert: I don't think anyone knows, even the v1 hardware apparently isn't fully nailed down Jan 09 23:00:18 bjoernb__: apparently Apple went for the cheap Akamai package Jan 09 23:00:41 bjoernb__: which means that if one of the nodes doesn't have the full stream, it tries to pull from the source (even though a neighbour node may have it) Jan 09 23:00:57 and as we all know, the source is under heavy load Jan 09 23:01:18 well mplayer crashes when pressing play Jan 09 23:01:32 give it a try from the shell Jan 09 23:01:42 mine just waits, and waits, and waits Jan 09 23:01:50 i do not have the exact adress Jan 09 23:02:16 mplayer http://stream.qtv.apple.com/events/jan/j47d52oo/m_sub8848125_350_ref.mov Jan 09 23:02:23 got it from the html source :) Jan 09 23:03:41 Stream not seekable! file format detected Jan 09 23:03:56 Initiated "audio/MPEG4-GENERIC" RTP subsession on port 35062 Jan 09 23:03:57 Initiated "video/H264" RTP subsession on port 35064 Jan 09 23:04:01 and mine waits there Jan 09 23:04:06 and then nothing happens Jan 09 23:04:30 is it possible to wget the movie? Jan 09 23:04:48 nope, it uses rtsp Jan 09 23:04:53 it's udp-based Jan 09 23:05:01 hence 'not seekable' Jan 09 23:05:20 hmpf. Jan 09 23:05:52 it's possible to save this stuff - but we're better off waiting for someone with a reliable stream :) Jan 09 23:05:52 http://www.greenpeace.org/apple/ Jan 09 23:06:06 okay Jan 09 23:06:28 or non-peak US times Jan 09 23:06:50 well now it is half past midnight here. Jan 09 23:07:27 i just wanted to see it tonight, but unfortunately i have to get up at half past 5am Jan 09 23:07:30 it's between 6 and 3pm US... bad timing Jan 09 23:10:46 good night Stephmw[Zzzzz] Jan 09 23:12:15 actually, to save us all leaving a dormant bot on the channel, would it not make more sense for someone to run a general log? Jan 09 23:12:47 ~log Jan 09 23:12:49 somebody said log was as piece of wood, or a record, or the opposite of exponentiation Jan 09 23:13:01 hmm Jan 09 23:14:20 yay :) next time I get an unsolicited vendor calling : yes we have full logging, we have a 45ft pine in the car park :) Jan 09 23:14:39 how is it backed up? Jan 09 23:14:57 i wonder how locked down the linux in the new moto rizr z6 is Jan 09 23:14:58 we planted another one in scotland Jan 09 23:16:55 oh with the stuff up there ^^_ you can save it with mplayer and codecs under linux or with streambox vcr, your legal juristriction may vary :( Jan 09 23:19:58 Revmeupbaby: http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko.txt Jan 09 23:20:05 and http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko-prev.txt for the previous 24 hours Jan 09 23:20:31 (that's the nslu2-log user doing that) Jan 09 23:22:17 and http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko/ for logs of all days since Nov 29 Jan 09 23:46:44 i wonder if it will be possible to create a cheap data connection between two neo's by simulating a videocall and using it for data Jan 09 23:47:00 since there are deals for unlimited videocalling etc.. Jan 09 23:47:53 ... then you could have one neo at home connected to your computer, acting as a gateway ... Jan 09 23:48:00 very true :) Jan 09 23:48:35 anyone know how many bits/s a videocall uses? Jan 09 23:59:49 Psi_: Usually about 30KB/s each way. Jan 09 23:59:54 assuming 15fps, 640x480. Jan 10 00:00:05 thats pretty good Jan 10 00:00:45 is that uncompressed tho? because i bet they heavily compress it Jan 10 00:01:08 that's totally compressed Jan 10 00:01:19 because otherwise it'd be just 2kB/frame Jan 10 00:01:29 hehe ok Jan 10 00:01:37 well 30KB/s is a nice data connection Jan 10 00:02:10 for a phone anyway Jan 10 00:04:34 yes, that's using something like h.263. Jan 10 00:05:52 got a deal on here atm for ~US$4/month you can have unlimited videocalling to one phone number Jan 10 00:06:15 two phones + $8/m = unlimted 30KB/s internet :P Jan 10 00:09:41 you won't get 30KB/s without 3g tho... Jan 10 00:11:13 yeah, and the neo isnt 3g right? Jan 10 00:11:28 indeed it isn't Jan 10 00:11:49 the iPhone Jan 10 00:11:54 pity, lets hope v2 is 3g with camera and wifi, Jan 10 00:12:12 is so much like the Neo 1973 Jan 10 00:12:19 in its physical design Jan 10 00:12:53 it's gonna make me look much less geeky walking around with my Neo 1973 Jan 10 00:12:55 with no hardware buttons Jan 10 00:13:01 haha, yeah :) Jan 10 00:13:18 but I didn't need Apple to tell me no buttons was sexy anyways Jan 10 00:13:30 I've always thought the tons of buttons on smartphones are butt ugly Jan 10 00:13:55 the Treo line looks scaly Jan 10 00:14:48 where is a pic of this iphone? Jan 10 00:16:51 http://blog.wired.com/wiredphotos16/ on Wired News Jan 10 00:16:57 might be one on Apple's website Jan 10 00:19:04 you'll notice, it can ONLY be carried on the Cingular network Jan 10 00:19:18 I don't know if Cingular even gives service in Europe Jan 10 00:20:34 i hate the iphone Jan 10 00:20:39 that looks completely stupid Jan 10 00:20:46 ^ Jan 10 00:20:52 how the hell do you dial using an lcd? Jan 10 00:20:59 it doesn't even have a flip cover Jan 10 00:21:14 lean on something a smidge and there goes the display Jan 10 00:21:40 of course i bet like the ipod, you can't change the battery, you haveto replace the whole device when the battery dies, am i right? Jan 10 00:22:40 holycow, touchscreen lcd Jan 10 00:22:47 i assume Jan 10 00:30:15 i guess it looks like openmoko will have same Jan 10 00:30:19 lets see how it plays you Jan 10 00:31:52 holycow: it's a multitouch screen. not sure why you'd trash it without finding it out what it is first.. Jan 10 00:33:12 a touch screen is a touch screen ... lacks tactile feel, requires greater dexterity and its incredibly prone to cracking Jan 10 00:33:20 i've destroyed a few devices like that accidentally Jan 10 00:34:39 only if you keep jabbing it with a pen or your fingernail instead of something soft Jan 10 00:35:49 thats not how they break Jan 10 00:35:53 few months back i saw someone at a restaurant entering orders on a 15" touchscreen with a nicely sharpened pencil! Jan 10 00:35:58 you put it in a briefcase or a pocket and lean Jan 10 00:36:30 yeah, obviously you have to watch you dont force something into the screen Jan 10 00:36:48 thats the thing ... flipphones thats really not an issue at all Jan 10 00:38:12 I have a nokia 770 (big flat screen covering 90% of the unit) I've not had an issue Jan 10 00:39:25 although a fair number of my button presses are on the scroll/pan button or zoom in/out Jan 10 00:39:48 I wonder what the buttons/slots on the edge of the ipone are Jan 10 00:42:46 http://www.flipstartpc.com/ <-- these guys updated look and feel of site but now no news on the product Jan 10 00:57:30 spikebik1: my biggest issue with the 770 and the 800 is that they're not phones Jan 10 01:01:16 thats a pretty BIG issue :P Jan 10 01:01:25 Ycros spikebik1: They don't make them like they used to. Good old lead acid batteries and wires... Jan 10 01:02:49 I mean that everything is now a software controlled radio to some degree. Some phones just have lousy software. Jan 10 01:02:49 heh Jan 10 01:03:00 if the 770 was a phone, I'd have one already Jan 10 01:03:20 Will a future generation of the openmoko phone have bluetooth and/or wifi? Jan 10 01:03:20 it's strange, coming from nokia and not being a phone Jan 10 01:04:03 Ycros: you're upset that it doesn't have GSM? Jan 10 01:04:26 LeeColleton: yes Jan 10 01:14:12 hi all, has anyone seen the new apple iPhone? Jan 10 01:14:31 lies! Jan 10 01:14:42 HOLY CRAP Jan 10 01:14:52 I was on the apple page 10mins ago and it wasn't there Jan 10 01:15:29 http://www.apple.com/iphone/ Jan 10 01:16:01 Ycros nice interface wonder if there are any lessons that OpenMoko could pick up Jan 10 01:16:25 it's a lickable inteface Jan 10 01:16:34 on a candybar phone Jan 10 01:16:53 I wonder if it's 3g Jan 10 01:17:42 but it's also an ipod and stuff Jan 10 01:18:21 hi thedaniel Jan 10 01:19:26 hmm portable safari, I think the gpe-minibrowser uses khtml is there a web browser for OpenMoko? Jan 10 01:20:34 I think the gpe one uses gecko Jan 10 01:20:44 or whatever the 770 maemo project came up with Jan 10 01:20:55 maemo uses opera Jan 10 01:21:03 wow it has wifi built in http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/specs.html Jan 10 01:21:06 there's some non-free stuff at very low levels in maemo - at least 1.x Jan 10 01:21:16 it's hard to make an alternate firmware for it Jan 10 01:21:36 oh okay Jan 10 01:22:38 I mentioned before that you could plug a usb wi fi adapter into the Neo but wolud be a bit clunky hopefully they will build in wi fi into next device version Jan 10 01:22:45 cbpage: huh? nokia already released a free firmware for it. Jan 10 01:22:55 all it's missing is the opera browser and the handwriting recognition Jan 10 01:22:59 which aren't low-level. Jan 10 01:26:27 link to some cool multi-touch touch screens: http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/ Jan 10 01:27:41 i reckon you could take a small 3.5mm stereo plug and stick and IR driver inside, instant IR remote control capability for the neo using the soundoutput :) Jan 10 02:23:58 darmou wifi adapter would need power Jan 10 02:24:49 spikebik1 yes you need a battery powered hub Jan 10 02:25:41 at that point you might as well get a wifi AP that handles bluetooth Jan 10 02:25:51 er, not sure of the moko has bt or not Jan 10 02:38:32 cjb: You know of any decent free software handwriting recognition? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jan 10 03:00:00 2007