**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jan 10 03:00:00 2007 Jan 10 03:34:01 no preorders yet? I thought this thing was announced as "available". What does that mean? Jan 10 03:34:12 is Apple suing you already? Jan 10 03:39:37 anyone here who had some time withe the neo? Jan 10 04:05:26 http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=16906 Jan 10 04:05:31 oops Jan 10 04:22:09 Seeing the iPhone makes me want the Neo right away. Jan 10 04:27:09 hmm.. I hope they didn't patent out all nifty ideas that would have been implemented in openmoko :-( Jan 10 04:27:33 ditto Jan 10 04:27:42 like multigesture was talked in mailing list and here and web before iPhone introduction Jan 10 04:27:59 every time I hear somebody invented something I hope that they either: Jan 10 04:28:02 1) didn't patent it Jan 10 04:28:14 2) would have kept mouth shut and not invented it at all Jan 10 04:28:47 because... in case of 2 there is still possibility that somebody else invents it and its possible to use it actually Jan 10 04:29:27 however, I'm surely going to personally ignore patents, I will code whatever I want on my personal phone (and fortunately openmoko is open for that ;-) Jan 10 04:31:20 no matter what iPhone has, it is missing one feature: source code Jan 10 04:31:48 also missing insanely high DPI screen Jan 10 04:32:02 yeah Jan 10 04:32:50 one good point though: porting between iPhone and OpenMoKo might be feasible for many apps (underlying unix) Jan 10 04:33:05 or maybe not, toolkit is different :-( Jan 10 04:33:09 the gui stuff would be different Jan 10 04:34:20 that slide to open, I wish I had talked about unlocking ideas before seeing it, but basically I recall them like this: Jan 10 04:34:36 "something that is hard to do accidentally, but really easy to do on purpose" Jan 10 04:34:51 ie.. some kind of gesture Jan 10 04:43:27 hmm... but europe shouldn't have software patents, so... maybe separate repository for software patent free zones Jan 10 04:52:02 the zoom/unzoom/menus with momentum have all been done/documents, i.e. prior art Jan 10 04:53:53 to quote myself (slightly edited): well.. there are several things worse in any N series compared to neo: Jan 10 04:54:00 1) closed 2) need external keyboard for fast text entry (assuming that neo has enough good touch screen here) 3) smaller display (and not touch display) 4) I don't think they have USB host support 5) they cost more too Jan 10 04:54:10 1) is *must*, 2) practically required (imagine using (x)emacs with N series without external keyboard (they do support external foldable bluetoot on so its possible)) 3) is nice thing to have, 4) makes it 'infinitely' extentable 5) always nice thing to have Jan 10 04:54:49 well... let seee iPhone: 1) Nope, 2) Yes/maybe (if not enough good, maybe can be added, at least hardware seems to support it) Jan 10 04:55:13 3) resolution slower, physical size bigger(?) Jan 10 04:55:22 4) probably not Jan 10 04:55:26 5) more expensive Jan 10 04:55:32 neo looks good ;-) Jan 10 04:58:03 for example about 1): can you route audio from/to GSM/phone(mic/speaker/audio jack) ? Jan 10 04:58:28 aloril - have you seen the spec for HexInput? Jan 10 04:58:47 I'm going to implement it for the neo Jan 10 04:58:50 if somebody doesn't beat me to it Jan 10 05:01:08 PirateHead: yes, though I wonder if something even more efficient is possible by using multiple simultaneous gestures Jan 10 05:01:24 ie.. MultiHexInput Jan 10 05:01:34 for text input? Jan 10 05:01:37 for 26 letters? Jan 10 05:02:17 plus common punctuation, etc? Jan 10 05:02:59 well, I don't see how that would work, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't Jan 10 05:03:05 basically, my thought is Jan 10 05:03:32 just because Steve Jobs says "ZOMG multi input!!!1" doesn't mean that suddenly everything would be better that way Jan 10 05:03:49 text input by syllables, code input, xemacs key combinations, open arbitrary often used application/web site, etc.. numerous things ;-) Jan 10 05:03:52 certianly, it can be implemented to increase usability Jan 10 05:04:12 PirateHead: umm.. I was talking about what I said above *before* iPhone Jan 10 05:04:29 yeah Jan 10 05:04:38 even repeatedly asking how good multitouch is on neo ;-) Jan 10 05:05:27 sure, I'm missing on details, but those partially depend on how good multitouch is (hardware) Jan 10 05:06:48 also I think it will take some time to actually find what works in practice Jan 10 05:07:09 naturally Jan 10 05:07:33 however, it might be that most efficient ones are not really possible for consumer devices (points to vi/xemacs) Jan 10 05:07:33 I mean... to provide as default ;-) Jan 10 05:07:37 one thing that I really want to try in practice: chorded input Jan 10 05:08:30 vi and emacs are entirely dependant on a touch-type keyboard Jan 10 05:08:30 implement vi with a stylus interface and you lose essentially everything Jan 10 05:08:30 PirateHead: yup, multitouch == chorded if enough good Jan 10 05:08:30 the speed, the power, the utility Jan 10 05:08:50 right, so multitouch is needed for those like I have envisioned for some days Jan 10 05:09:11 I still think that hexinput would be better Jan 10 05:09:20 for plain english text input Jan 10 05:09:38 I don't think you could achieve the same wpm with chorded/multitouch input as you could with hexinput Jan 10 05:09:50 I'd rather call it "stroke input" or something. Jan 10 05:10:43 stroke input also has fewer hardware constraints - all you need to track is one moving point, not distinguish between many touch points. Jan 10 05:11:29 multitouch is mostly useful for gestures like zoom in Jan 10 05:11:36 touch two fingers and pull them apart Jan 10 05:11:44 umm.. twiddler2 claims 60wpm, hexinput claims 30wpm Jan 10 05:12:39 Tv: you too? Jan 10 05:12:56 yacc: I've been tracking openmoko for a long time.. Jan 10 05:13:14 ;) Jan 10 05:13:20 I'll have to look up twiddler2 Jan 10 05:14:06 Tv: office channel? Jan 10 05:14:11 okay, found it Jan 10 05:14:33 I'm happy that bundling is optional in Finland (by law) (earlier it was even completely forbidden) Jan 10 05:14:46 it looks like a piece of crap to me. You don't have that much space on the neo or the iphone, and you don't have that much precision without hardware buttons. Jan 10 05:15:33 PirateHead: yeah, need something else, but gestures add 'buttons' Jan 10 05:15:42 plus, I bet hexinput can get more than 30 wpm Jan 10 05:16:01 if I use it for a few months, I bet I'd get good at it. Jan 10 05:16:11 a bit surprised that iPhone didn't see value in GPS ;-) Jan 10 05:16:25 iphone does have GPS, I think Jan 10 05:16:27 might just be unannounced Jan 10 05:16:28 I saw maps and stuff Jan 10 05:16:30 they don't mention it Jan 10 05:16:38 nah, nothing in the map demo implied gps Jan 10 05:16:57 just maps a la Google or Mapquest? Jan 10 05:17:09 yeah he typed sanfrancisco Jan 10 05:17:18 then added starbucks Jan 10 05:17:35 That's nice integration, but it's kinda lame. Jan 10 05:17:46 Anything that makes it easier to find a number and call it though, I guess. Jan 10 05:17:50 tengo has a neat demo of gui for pda input... including movie Jan 10 05:17:54 <[g2]> umm google maps runs on Opera on the a780 Jan 10 05:17:57 surely he would have demoed it differently if it had GPS: instead just type starbucks and it would show nearest ones Jan 10 05:18:10 i use maemo mapper for the n770... I love it Jan 10 05:18:14 <[g2]> starbucks in San Fran Jan 10 05:18:18 We know, g2. Jan 10 05:18:44 It's not new. It's just integrated. Jan 10 05:19:02 <[g2]> PirateHead I'm saying it already was integrated in google maps Jan 10 05:19:07 Where you can click on starbucks and "phone here". Then again, I'm sure you could get that working on the a780 too. Jan 10 05:19:20 one speculation about iPhone was wrong: its not unlocked in USA Jan 10 05:19:33 Are you in USA aloril? Jan 10 05:19:36 (or maybe there will be one available too) Jan 10 05:19:40 well it requires provider twaks Jan 10 05:19:43 tweaks Jan 10 05:19:49 nope, Finland Jan 10 05:20:03 hows stuff in finland? I'm thinking about visiting there awhile. Jan 10 05:20:09 * [g2] likes the motto "twice the pixels, 1/2 the cost" for openmoko :) Jan 10 05:20:18 g2 me as well ;-) Jan 10 05:20:24 <[g2]> 10 X the value :) Jan 10 05:20:30 anyways, I'm wondering about what networks can support the neo in the US Jan 10 05:20:35 missing bt will hurt (if true) Jan 10 05:20:44 I don't think verizon can, I have never heard of them offering sim cards Jan 10 05:20:57 the apple browser looks excellent... smart zoom and the like Jan 10 05:21:29 (video is on the apple site) Jan 10 05:21:39 the auto-rotate is clever as well Jan 10 05:21:41 PirateHead: bundling allowed only for 3G stuff and there also it must be optional (ie you can always by phone and SIM separately) Jan 10 05:22:01 even adverts must include unbundled price Jan 10 05:22:31 what does 3G mean? Jan 10 05:22:46 <[g2]> 3G network Jan 10 05:22:52 I know it has something to do with a data plan, but I don't know all the jargon Jan 10 05:23:03 <[g2]> it's after 2G and 2.5G but before 4G :) Jan 10 05:23:52 <[g2]> 2G may be GPRS and 2.5G EDGE Jan 10 05:25:33 <[g2]> ok 2G + GPRS is 2.5G Jan 10 05:27:15 UMTS for example 384 kbit/s, 3.6Mbit/s are some numbers quoted in UMTS wiki page linked from following along other 3G pages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3G Jan 10 05:28:00 <[g2]> aloril nod. Jan 10 05:28:14 <[g2]> EDGE according to the wikipedia is 2.75G Jan 10 05:29:52 <[g2]> hmmm GGSN not in wikipedia yet Jan 10 05:32:12 hah, 2.75 Jan 10 05:32:32 I wonder if something will be 2.875 Jan 10 05:32:39 silly naming Jan 10 05:33:29 like there would be clear generations; technology evolves along multiple parallel paths that compete Jan 10 05:33:34 generations can only be named afterwards Jan 10 05:35:37 <[g2]> well 2G, and 2.5G and 3G are pretty clear Jan 10 05:36:18 <[g2]> 1G was really clear too :) Jan 10 05:36:20 yeah but EDGE and 4G definitely aren't Jan 10 05:36:40 it's like back in the days of POTS modems Jan 10 05:36:53 different vendors make up different tricks to get more speed out of it Jan 10 05:37:20 <[g2]> those are standards bodies Jan 10 05:37:41 <[g2]> I think you are talking GSM versus CDMA Jan 10 05:37:57 * [g2] thinks CMDA is _dead_ for all intents and purposes Jan 10 05:38:13 <[g2]> not as dead as SCOX Jan 10 05:38:14 indeed Jan 10 05:38:31 <[g2]> it's all mostly over but the crying Jan 10 05:38:48 <[g2]> kinda like Transmeta Jan 10 05:42:07 kinda surprised more of the USA carriers aren't switching to gsm faster Jan 10 05:42:14 (except for cingular) Jan 10 05:42:47 Japanese market seems to be 'different' Jan 10 05:42:51 <[g2]> well historically it's quite interesting Jan 10 05:43:06 <[g2]> GSM was really a catalyst for europe Jan 10 05:43:25 <[g2]> as they had a _bunch_ of disparate analog systems Jan 10 05:44:00 <[g2]> and the US kinda cocked it up with TDMA, CDMA and ignored GSM for the longest time Jan 10 05:44:56 * [g2] stops rambling and heads off for some sleep.... nite all Jan 10 05:45:32 hmm.. if could get multitouch gestures work enough good for text entry, etc.. could even use neo as keyboard instead of normal one ;-) Jan 10 05:45:39 how will A-GPS be priced? Is it a service from the provider or can anyone use it without paying? Jan 10 05:46:52 aloril - would you really want to give up a touch-type keyboard? Jan 10 05:47:12 dex dunno, but gps works without agps on the neo Jan 10 05:47:17 I think I would be entirely unable to. I couldn't write code with a pared-down keyboard. Jan 10 05:47:40 You could send instant messages with a hexinput style or chorded style or whatever keyboard, but I dobut you could provide an intuitive interface for code entry. Jan 10 05:48:22 Thanks spikebik1, been wondering about that for a while :) Jan 10 05:48:47 dex- don't sigh relief yet. Jan 10 05:48:58 the neo isn't out yet, so no final word on specs or features or anything Jan 10 05:49:03 Oh noze! Jan 10 05:49:36 I won't believe that gps works without agps until I get it working on *my* neo. =D Jan 10 05:49:49 Yeah, I know you always get disapointed in the end, but i remain hopefull :) Jan 10 05:50:06 put it this way Jan 10 05:50:13 if it's hard to get wireless cards working on liux Jan 10 05:50:21 think how hard it will be to get gps cards working =D Jan 10 05:50:32 er Jan 10 05:50:32 ha ha. Jan 10 05:50:47 You have a point there :) Jan 10 05:51:33 Is bluetooth and wi-fi stil in the specs? Jan 10 05:51:56 wifi never where Jan 10 05:52:39 PirateHead: if I can get multigestures work better Jan 10 05:53:07 gpsd is working and included afaik Jan 10 05:53:15 it's one of the supplied propietary bits Jan 10 05:53:24 and a major selling point of the phone Jan 10 05:53:24 PirateHead: is vi/xemacs intuitive? (full potential) Jan 10 05:53:31 aloril: that's a big if. Jan 10 05:53:57 aloril: I get between 80 and 120 wpm on qwerty/dvorak keyboards. Jan 10 05:54:07 think "gesturing" can match that? Jan 10 05:54:22 well.. in this case we do have user space binary module and you can snoop all traffic, so reverse engineering should be easier (AGPS) Jan 10 05:54:29 for instant messanging, if I can get an easy interface that lets me input a-z and smilies I'm good Jan 10 05:54:51 I don't believe agps is mandatory Jan 10 05:54:56 it's just optional Jan 10 05:55:00 for writing in c, you need a whole lot more characters than that Jan 10 05:55:02 if you want to pay for it great... if not fine Jan 10 05:55:27 there are smart c editors that minimize that stuff Jan 10 05:55:43 PirateHead: maybe, but as you said it is big if Jan 10 05:55:58 need a-z, +/-/* and ; Jan 10 05:56:12 and if hardware is not enough sensitive for multiple gestures, then :-( Jan 10 05:56:14 don't need the parans or {} much if it's smart Jan 10 05:58:54 PirateHead: think it this way: keyboard touch resolution sucks: very bad resolution and even multitouch is limited and still you get 80-120 wpm ;-) Jan 10 05:59:02 of course keyboard is bigger than neo screen.. Jan 10 05:59:30 and that's the whole pont Jan 10 05:59:39 that's why I don't buy teensy tiny laptops Jan 10 05:59:46 I need big keys to maintain my optimum WPM Jan 10 06:00:05 not huge keys, but not the tiny "Portability Book 2006" ones either Jan 10 06:00:24 hmm.. 3D multi gesture ... Jan 10 06:00:39 2 high resolution cameras and .. ;-) Jan 10 06:01:08 and then suddenly using your cellphone looks like casting spells in old fantasy fic flicks Jan 10 06:01:15 and/or gloves Jan 10 06:01:18 hehe Jan 10 06:01:37 right and even 'optimal' multigesture on neo might look like that Jan 10 06:02:08 if I can get hexinput working for neo, that's what I'll probably use Jan 10 06:02:17 otherwise, I'll probably revert to an old qwerty-stylus thing Jan 10 06:02:23 by the way, does the neo use a stylus? Jan 10 06:02:28 I've always assumed that it does. But does it? Jan 10 06:04:58 I remember mention of that in mailing list from fic Jan 10 06:05:18 I hope its enough good to work without it Jan 10 06:11:36 considering linux on 486 with 8MiB (or 12MiB): this phone has huge specs (much faster processor (guess: 203MHz or 266MHz) , 128MiB) ;-) Jan 10 06:11:47 of course apps are now more bloated, but still .. Jan 10 06:12:24 PirateHead: "GPS cards"? I've seen embedded GPS just be a COM port and speak really simple ASCII protocol. Jan 10 06:13:01 It all depends on how the hardware is configured, I guess. Jan 10 06:13:16 Having not seen or played with the neo yet, all I can do is blow smoke. Jan 10 06:19:19 Any info on the SDK? Jan 10 06:19:57 not that I've heard Jan 10 06:20:12 I know information about what platformy thing they're using has been released Jan 10 06:20:21 but I forget the link Jan 10 06:20:32 Awwwh! Jan 10 06:20:56 openembedded Jan 10 06:21:50 Will it have some sort of emulator so that you can play around with a virtual neo? Jan 10 06:21:52 That would be neet. Jan 10 06:22:11 gtk+ and sdl available I thnk (at least gtk+) Jan 10 06:22:39 so coding for gtk and 480x640 sie should work? Jan 10 06:23:32 (just to be clear: I don't have the phone) Jan 10 06:30:05 OK. I need to check those out, haven't used any of'em before. Jan 10 06:30:44 s/sie / Jan 10 06:36:39 s/sie / ...... what? Jan 10 06:45:01 oh, Neo1973 should be avaialble first (2007-06 for iPhone) Jan 10 06:45:13 Dex: so coding for gtk and 480x640 should work? Jan 10 06:46:42 alori: Seems like it. I should ad that i'm not an expert though ;) Jan 10 06:47:47 I want wifi so i'll prob. get the 2:nd neo if rumours hold water Jan 10 06:51:21 Dex: I think you can get wifi by using usb power injector and usb wifi, but yeah that is clunky Jan 10 06:59:37 PirateHead: It will use Matchbox. You will be able emulate in Xoo/Xeypher and qemuarm Jan 10 06:59:55 PirateHead: And I'm with you on that HexInput thing :) Jan 10 07:00:36 Never heard of xoo, xephyr, or qemuarm. Jan 10 07:00:50 And I do lots of virtualization. Jan 10 07:00:59 I've heard of qemu (similar to qemuarm?) and xen (similar to xoo?) Jan 10 07:03:43 PirateHead: http://projects.o-hand.com/xoo/ Jan 10 07:05:04 qemu to simulate the whole phone I guess, and Xoo for testing gui apps Jan 10 07:05:48 I don't know any details, was mickeyl who told me when I asked before Jan 10 07:06:36 I've decided not to even start anything until more imformation about the hardware is present. Jan 10 07:07:00 I'm not willing to pour work into something that ends up needing to be resized, or ported to a different framework or specs, etc. Jan 10 07:07:34 Of course, and the dev kit isn't out until the phone is anyway Jan 10 07:07:34 information* Jan 10 07:08:49 PirateHead: uh, the screen specs have been out for a while Jan 10 07:08:57 I am going to love having a mini-linux device, though. Jan 10 07:09:28 I'm sure openmoko users will be on the leading edge of syncing with linux laptops. Jan 10 07:10:18 Tv: I have seen screen specs, however they don't tell the whole story. I hear there's a "universal status bar" that needs to be accounted for, and there may be other UI considerations that are not immediately apparent from the few screenshots and specs we've been given. Jan 10 07:10:38 that's not "screen", that's UI Jan 10 07:10:44 but yeah Jan 10 07:10:45 Tv: That's why I decided to buy the phone and use it bare-bones for a week or two before starting to design things for it. Jan 10 07:12:01 As soon as you separate the "screen" from the "UI", you've transcended my world of mobile device usage. =D Jan 10 07:13:09 aloril: USB to the resque, but dongels are clumsy, like you said. Jan 10 07:14:06 Lack of built-in bluetooth will be annoying, but I haven't heard whether that's the gospel truth or not. Jan 10 07:15:19 If there's no bluetooth, I suspect I'll have to carry a USB cable around with me a lot. Jan 10 07:15:25 I heard everything anormal phone has these days, minus the camera and with gps. Jan 10 07:15:28 Bluetooth is built in, but there are some kind of hardware issues Jan 10 07:15:57 Not sure that it will be enabled by default Jan 10 07:16:01 Its not entirly open as i remember it, but the interface should work nicely. Jan 10 07:16:20 BT that is Jan 10 07:16:28 If I can connect to a WLAN using bluetooth, I'll be happy. Jan 10 07:16:38 yes, it uses the internal usb-interface Jan 10 07:18:52 CM: xoo looks nice Jan 10 07:19:38 I want internal wi-fi. I need it for my plan to conquer the world :( Jan 10 07:19:40 Acording to FIC they have the next model half ready by the time the current one ships, so maybe i dont have to wait for too long. Jan 10 07:21:59 I would put up with no wifi, but apparently it won't have bluetooth either :( Jan 10 07:23:20 Dex, thats good to know Jan 10 07:25:38 benJIman: Don't be so sure about that :) Jan 10 07:26:08 how many times does that have to be repeated: hardware v1 will not have wifi, may or may not have bluetooth Jan 10 07:28:27 Do you have the specs somewhere? Jan 10 07:28:28 I'd like to see them. Jan 10 07:29:39 There's no updates on the specs since the old press release (topic) Jan 10 07:29:57 ok, thanks. Jan 10 07:33:54 Anyone knows how apt-get works? Jan 10 07:33:56 I'm more of a yum-guy myself. Jan 10 07:37:10 apt-get works mostly the same as yum Jan 10 07:37:15 what are you trying to do? Jan 10 07:39:07 Just curious. I was thinking about geting yum instead but if both works without any problems i dont see why i should bother. Jan 10 07:39:34 for simple operations, the commands are basically identical: X update, X search , X install Jan 10 07:39:58 apt-get search does not exist Jan 10 07:40:00 you have to apt-cache search rather than apt-get search, Jan 10 07:45:04 ok. good to know. Any words on the bundle? I asume there will be some kind of connectability with a pc. Doing app installs on the device seems a bit awkward. Jan 10 07:46:38 usb-net for sure Jan 10 07:46:54 ip over bluetooth perhaps Jan 10 07:47:06 (if we get bluetooth, we can run ip over it) Jan 10 07:47:40 usbnet, PAN (BT net), gprs Jan 10 08:02:33 er up Jan 10 08:02:58 so_solid_moo right, but if you apt-get update and then apt-cache search it's much better Jan 10 08:03:24 especially since you can search and get without waiting on the net all the time Jan 10 08:03:48 isn't that what I said? Jan 10 08:04:24 oh sorry Jan 10 08:04:28 I meant to correct xor Jan 10 08:04:36 :o) Jan 10 08:04:38 and agree with you ;-) Jan 10 08:44:33 hmm.. iPod connector might in theory give iPhone USB host? (anyway, most important feature source code will surely be missing ;-) Jan 10 08:49:38 ah it's official. Bluetooth omg. :) Jan 10 08:49:55 And of course the Hacker's Lunch Box. :) Jan 10 08:50:42 \o/ Jan 10 08:50:47 bt is very desirable. Jan 10 08:53:58 ouch!: http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/ Jan 10 08:54:06 or should I say: haha ;-) Jan 10 08:55:09 * stefan_schmidt prefers haha :) Jan 10 08:55:48 :P Jan 10 08:55:53 even my old Nokia is better than iPhone ;-) (I can develop for it using java) Jan 10 08:56:11 now i only wish that the neo's microsd is sdio capable Jan 10 08:56:24 I would not get iPhone even if got it for free Jan 10 08:56:35 stefan_schmidt? Jan 10 08:56:46 aloril: i would. imagine job's face when it will be running linux :P Jan 10 08:56:54 Kaloz: good point Jan 10 08:56:55 official? Jan 10 08:58:07 spikebik1: yep, check the list Jan 10 08:58:26 aloril: and for the bloatware osx crap i'm pretty sure it has decent cpu and ram Jan 10 08:58:30 :P Jan 10 08:58:33 cool Jan 10 08:59:06 aloril: i would guess it has the same toys as the nokia 800 and the forthcoming nokia n95 Jan 10 08:59:40 aloril: so ti omap 2420/2430 or even omap 3430 Jan 10 08:59:51 aloril: the first two is arm11, the last on is arm cortex a8 Jan 10 09:00:24 aloril: which means 330MHz arm11 fun or 600-800MHz armv7 fun on the last one Jan 10 09:01:10 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001006.html Jan 10 09:01:57 somebody might want to update topic Jan 10 09:03:20 Kaloz: yeah, iPhone hardware + OpenMoKo would be interesting (but I would like to have GPS too...) Jan 10 09:04:03 bluetooth is a relief Jan 10 09:04:17 I can stop hoping that nokia releases a N770/N800 related with GSM Jan 10 09:05:06 yeah.. let's hop the microsd is sdio capale Jan 10 09:05:18 i'm sure some vendor can put the atheros 6001 into that form factor Jan 10 09:05:20 spikebik1: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001006.html Jan 10 09:05:23 and that has free drivers Jan 10 09:06:02 Kaloz: microSD is under battery. I'm pretty sure you will have no fun with sdio here. Jan 10 09:06:54 stefan yeah I saw the URL the first time, thus my comment Jan 10 09:07:11 why is SDio important? Jan 10 09:07:27 People have hopes for sdio wlan Jan 10 09:07:59 But all microSD sdio cards I know are oversized anyway. Jan 10 09:08:36 Plus we have to merge a sdio stack into linux kernel and write driver for the cards. Jan 10 09:08:36 a BT <-> wifi adapter could potentially be small/portable Jan 10 09:08:40 stefan_schmidt: wrong Jan 10 09:08:47 I wonder what is write speed supported by neo to micro-SD card Jan 10 09:08:56 stefan_schmidt: atheros gave a full sdio stack to the linux community Jan 10 09:09:10 stefan_schmidt: and they also gave gpl'ed drivers for their ar6k chipset Jan 10 09:09:18 hacker's lunchbox sounds rather interesting Jan 10 09:09:58 Kaloz: I know the stack. You take a look at the code? It needs much work before it will get merged into mainline. Jan 10 09:10:13 Kaloz: atheros driver without binary blob? Jan 10 09:10:40 stefan_schmidt: firts, something open and working can be used and can be fine even if it's not ready for mainline Jan 10 09:11:08 stefan_schmidt: second - yes, the sources for the ar6k are fully gpl'ed without binary blobs as I saw Jan 10 09:11:25 stefan_schmidt: only the ar5k (pci stuff) has the hal Jan 10 09:11:43 Kaloz: Have a link for the gpl driver? Jan 10 09:12:01 stefan_schmidt: same directory where the sdio stuf fis.. let me find it Jan 10 09:12:20 Kaloz: hmm, same dir on mvista? Jan 10 09:13:05 stefan_schmidt: right, http://source.mvista.com/~dsingleton/sdio/2.6.18/ Jan 10 09:13:16 http://source.mvista.com/~dsingleton/sdio/2.6.18/common_atheros_sdiostack_ar6000_wlan.patch Jan 10 09:13:16 stefan_schmidt: precisely http://source.mvista.com/~dsingleton/sdio/2.6.18/common_atheros_sdiostack_ar6000_wlan.patch Jan 10 09:14:12 That gives me some stuff to read today. :) Jan 10 09:14:30 :) Jan 10 09:15:18 * stefan_schmidt has also hopes in sdio for all his moto phones. :) Jan 10 09:15:58 well, given the size of the ar6k i'm even hoping for a neo wifi edition Jan 10 09:15:58 :P Jan 10 09:16:28 http://atheros.com/pt/images/AR6001X_BGA.gif Jan 10 09:17:13 That's SD, not microSD, right? Jan 10 09:20:03 sdio, the form factor is sd Jan 10 09:20:26 that's what I mean Jan 10 09:20:41 given the chip's size it would fit there Jan 10 09:23:52 oh, hi Stephmw Jan 10 09:26:29 ups, battery is empty. cu later Jan 10 09:26:37 cu Jan 10 09:27:52 heya Jan 10 09:34:41 I have been excepting this to happen for some years: "A 3D Printer On Every Desktop?" http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/01/09/2239206.shtml Jan 10 09:40:03 no prize for guessing the first object to come out of that will be a woman's bust... Jan 10 09:40:11 aloril: yeah, there was someone showing one off at last year's LCA Jan 10 09:40:58 he's back again this year Jan 10 09:41:18 showing off what it's up to - I think he'll have a live demonstration as well Jan 10 10:57:41 hey, will there be a wifi chip on the openmoko? Jan 10 10:59:26 it'd be really great to do VoIP at home and GSM outside. :) Jan 10 10:59:56 no Jan 10 11:00:07 not on the 1st version anyway Jan 10 11:00:48 mhm, and the "unpowered" usb means i can't just plug a wifi-dongle in, right? Jan 10 11:01:18 yup Jan 10 11:02:01 thats too bad ... Jan 10 11:02:42 Note that _if_ it will have bluetooth you can do voip at home through that. But that's if. Jan 10 11:02:51 mjr: it's confirmed, apparently. Jan 10 11:02:57 there are battery-powered usb dongles; the next thing is matching the connectors Jan 10 11:03:07 [i wonder what this meshing protocol discussion on the mailing list is about then, ....] Jan 10 11:03:09 most off the shelf usb wifi things have the big connector Jan 10 11:03:15 ah, bluetooth would be nice too ^^ Jan 10 11:03:35 so_solid_moo, its confirmed that the 1st version will have bt? Jan 10 11:03:36 i like the zaurus idea with the CF-slot, there are loads of cheap cards Jan 10 11:03:43 like wifi, bluetooth etc Jan 10 11:03:53 Psi_: that's what Sean said on the list Jan 10 11:03:54 Psi_: yes according to mailing list Jan 10 11:03:55 MMC/rs-mmc are cheap oh... non-storage Jan 10 11:04:19 oo, Bluetooth, yes Bluetooth! Jan 10 11:04:33 but where's the v8? Jan 10 11:04:37 i've not seen any mmc-wifi-cards, but cf-wifi cards are about 20$, some for bluetooth Jan 10 11:05:40 d0tslash, anyway, I know I will be doing some tuning to get IP over bluetooth comfortably usable with Moko if somebody doesn't beat me to it. So you may have your home-voip yet. (Of course you'll need that voip functionality part ;] ) Jan 10 11:06:06 d0tslash: sdio Jan 10 11:06:32 do we know if its bt v2 EDR? Jan 10 11:06:47 well, i've used kphone on the zaurus (which was also arm), maybe it's possible to port it. Jan 10 11:07:21 Psi_: Sean only said "Bluetooth": http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001006.html Jan 10 11:07:30 i liked the idea of having batman or other meshing stuff on the phone, (i'd have ported that as well ;), but it's useless without wifi Jan 10 11:07:35 Kaloz: sdio? Jan 10 11:08:04 d0tslash: an sd slot with sdio could be used for both storage and communication Jan 10 11:08:33 Kaloz: ah okay. i heard there are wifi-cards for sd/mmc slots as well, but never seen any. ^^ Jan 10 11:08:55 d0tslash: only for sd, and only if the slot supports sdio Jan 10 11:09:05 ah, okay. Jan 10 11:09:39 the limitation will be juice - wifi is thirsty Jan 10 11:09:40 hehe @ hackers lunchbox Jan 10 11:09:59 * mjr does the Bluetooth victory dance. Jan 10 11:10:33 bt will only be useful to me if its of the 100meter version Jan 10 11:10:42 which version is that? Jan 10 11:10:51 that would be class 2 Jan 10 11:10:57 oh wait, class 1 Jan 10 11:11:12 the 100-meter one, not the one in neo, I dunno what that will be Jan 10 11:11:23 ive seen EDR, enhanced data rate mentioned a few times Jan 10 11:12:27 Class 1 is 100m, 2 is 10m and 3 is < 10 (rarely used) Jan 10 11:12:46 I've only heard that it can handle stereo headphones Jan 10 11:12:51 need to be able to walk around the house will BT reception Jan 10 11:16:26 Psi_: devels said that it is Bt 2.0 edr Jan 10 11:22:45 for Bt 2.0 edr specs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth Jan 10 11:23:42 doesn't say much necessarily for the range Jan 10 11:23:51 still different classes available Jan 10 11:23:54 yeah Jan 10 11:24:11 but at least they are using the newer bt standard for the neo Jan 10 11:24:40 I'm not complaining Jan 10 11:24:49 would've been happy with 1.x though Jan 10 11:25:13 yes the important thing is that will HAVE bt :) Jan 10 11:25:41 The important thing is the Hacker's Lunchbox. ;) Jan 10 11:25:48 yeah, that sounded interesting Jan 10 11:25:57 care to start the guessing? Jan 10 11:26:00 v8? fgpa? Jan 10 11:26:03 Psi_: did you tested BT 2.0edr<>2.0edr test? Jan 10 11:26:48 actually, perchance a preinstalled largish microSD would be expected of the HL. Maybe some stuff to ease the USB usage (battery hub?) Jan 10 11:27:08 stefan_schmidt, the hackers lunchbox just sounds like a kit with lots of hacking tools Jan 10 11:27:21 i doubt the phone in that kit is any different Jan 10 11:27:30 but im just guessing Jan 10 11:28:06 yeah, I expect the base phone to be the same certainly Jan 10 11:28:15 just with added niceties such as maybe the ones I mentioned Jan 10 11:28:41 of course phone is the same Jan 10 11:29:06 Psi_: probably daughterboard thingie with serial and jtag Jan 10 11:29:21 thats possible Jan 10 11:29:54 doughterboard is even one of my bets Jan 10 11:29:57 the lunchbox is supposedly a breadboard type system to allow people access to the hardware Jan 10 11:30:19 access the hardware = serial console and jtag ;) Jan 10 11:30:24 who needs anything else? Jan 10 11:30:47 spi, gpio testpads, ... Jan 10 11:31:12 well, i'm pretty sure all the gpio stuff is used by leds, buttons, etc Jan 10 11:45:39 cool Jan 10 11:46:10 double the pixels and open seems great compared to the iphone Jan 10 11:46:13 oh and half price ;-) Jan 10 11:47:54 and very small flash :( Jan 10 11:56:01 morning guys Jan 10 11:57:02 mickeyl: 'early access' means 'developers program'? Jan 10 11:57:06 morning mickeyl Jan 10 11:57:16 hrw|work: probably Jan 10 11:57:21 hrw|work: yeah. you know, guys like you and me Jan 10 11:57:58 ko Jan 10 11:59:12 so the internal NAND size sucks. I will pester FIC to bundle a microSD and then we should look into the state of unionfs Jan 10 11:59:55 some guys are using unionfs on the 770 without any problems Jan 10 12:00:05 unionfs? Jan 10 12:00:05 two years ago it sucked though, OOPSes all over Jan 10 12:00:26 unionfs is an overlay filesystem. in contrast to a normal filesystem, it blends two filesystems Jan 10 12:00:29 mickeyl: please, I will have a lot of job to free openmoko from the crappy glibc alone Jan 10 12:00:33 :p Jan 10 12:00:34 mickeyl: use mini_fo Jan 10 12:00:48 mickeyl: there is the next generation unionfs for fuse :) Jan 10 12:00:56 i hope not Jan 10 12:00:59 i want it in the kernel Jan 10 12:01:05 it's slow enough in kernel Jan 10 12:01:06 why? Jan 10 12:01:10 speed reasons Jan 10 12:01:16 its completly broken on itself Jan 10 12:01:19 mickeyl: mini_fo is in kernel ;) Jan 10 12:01:25 and any rewrite is better :) Jan 10 12:01:34 unionfs broken? Jan 10 12:01:35 * xorAxAx talked to knopper IRL about it :) Jan 10 12:01:40 that's not what i heard, but ok Jan 10 12:01:43 yes, by design at several points Jan 10 12:01:45 * mickeyl open for alternatives Jan 10 12:02:09 he said that only alternative is the user-space rewrite currently Jan 10 12:02:52 xorAxAx: bs :p Jan 10 12:03:39 xorAxAx: knoppix is using aufs currently Jan 10 12:03:46 mickeyl: http://www.denx.de/wiki/Know.MiniFOHome Jan 10 12:04:05 hmm, 10/2005 ? Jan 10 12:04:29 mickeyl: they've working in svn since then Jan 10 12:04:37 mickeyl: no formal releases Jan 10 12:04:46 hmm, worth a try Jan 10 12:04:48 * mickeyl notes Jan 10 12:06:53 mickeyl: https://dev.openwrt.org/browser/trunk/target/linux/generic-2.6/patches/209-mini_fo.patch - we are using this version. not usre if it still has some additional fixes missing from the main mini_fo repo or not Jan 10 12:08:30 thanks Jan 10 12:09:24 oh, and that's for 2.6.19.1, no idea on which kernel will be used on the arly access stuff Jan 10 12:09:52 I vote for 2.6.17 Jan 10 12:10:00 mickeyl: ? Jan 10 12:10:16 2.6.17.14 Jan 10 12:10:21 why? :) Jan 10 12:10:48 because 2.6.18 introduces new irq handling Jan 10 12:10:55 and we don't like to code against a moving target Jan 10 12:11:04 so at some point of time you just need to chose one Jan 10 12:11:04 btw, same url just with ?rev=5556 in the end for .17 Jan 10 12:11:05 :) Jan 10 12:11:12 thanks, cool Jan 10 12:11:45 mickeyl: fine, i'll be happy to get 2.6.20 or 21 (whatever will be out) working then Jan 10 12:12:36 sure. we can do all kind of things, once it's out... Jan 10 12:12:38 there's new IRQ handling in 2.6.18? Jan 10 12:12:50 I've been waiting for that since .7 Jan 10 12:14:23 Kaloz: ugh, a twiki Jan 10 12:24:25 mickeyl: oh, was going to ask.. do you know which bootloader will be used on the neo? Jan 10 12:24:38 u-boot Jan 10 12:24:40 * Kaloz guesses u-boot but wants to be sure Jan 10 12:24:44 fine :) Jan 10 12:26:26 mickeyl: you chosen u-boot or laforge? Jan 10 12:26:46 that was LaF0rge's call Jan 10 12:26:55 i probably would've chosen LAB Jan 10 12:26:56 i would guess Harald Jan 10 12:27:07 mickeyl: LAB is much bigger Jan 10 12:27:10 heh, i should play in a casino Jan 10 12:27:11 :p Jan 10 12:27:11 i know, but i can do more Jan 10 12:28:14 is the neo screen multitouch too? Jan 10 12:28:22 I'm afraid not Jan 10 12:28:35 that's patented anyway Jan 10 12:28:50 btw, are there any other devices with multitouch? Jan 10 12:28:51 you can bet Apple won't want that tech licensed any time soon Jan 10 12:29:27 is the idea or the implementation patented? Jan 10 12:29:38 first should be thrown out, second might be worked around Jan 10 12:29:45 I think I saw only MIT's multitouch in Feb'06 and Microsoft's demo of similar technology in December'06 Jan 10 12:30:29 buz_: it's supposed to be the actual implementation... *but* patents are worded as vaguely as possible and end up patenting the idea Jan 10 12:30:58 * Stephmw had to review some patents in the past... Jan 10 12:31:17 yeah i know Jan 10 12:31:23 the USPTO should be abolished Jan 10 12:32:11 and the EUPTO right afterwards Jan 10 12:32:42 EPO, actually, but yes, they should Jan 10 12:32:44 woot, bluetooth included after all ? Jan 10 12:33:07 mickeyl: is there public repository of OpenMoko? I remember http://svnweb.gta01.hmw-consulting.de/ was public in November but it is unconditionally requiring username/password now Jan 10 12:33:29 the repository will go public when the device ships Jan 10 12:33:45 as will the wiki Jan 10 12:33:47 and the bugtracker Jan 10 12:33:48 etc. Jan 10 12:34:11 good luck with making your internal deadlines! :) Jan 10 12:34:18 hehe Jan 10 12:34:20 thanks Jan 10 12:34:46 mickeyl: thanks :-) Jan 10 12:36:07 * stefan_schmidt sees dozen of hacker lunchboxes flying around at fosdem. ;) Jan 10 12:36:27 hehe :) Jan 10 12:36:32 heh Jan 10 12:36:54 i have a slight idea of what the hacker lunchbox will consist of, but i heard the term for the first time today just as you all Jan 10 12:36:56 well, if we get the deice by that time, we can use bluetooth as serial console as well Jan 10 12:37:09 so we cna save the weight of the lunchboxes :P Jan 10 12:38:07 Kaloz: you cant use BT serial in kernel... first userspace must start ;( Jan 10 12:38:29 hrw|work: you can;t use it as early serial ;) Jan 10 12:39:04 mickeyl: I hope the box contain such a big red button. :) Jan 10 12:39:06 but given we have the device before fosdem, most of the kernel related quirks should be fixed that time :) Jan 10 12:39:23 if we get device before fosdem Jan 10 12:39:30 fosdem is Feb 2007 too Jan 10 12:39:42 stefan_schmidt: that would be my guess, too :) no idea how expensive that board is though Jan 10 12:39:48 right, there's a big "if" Jan 10 12:39:49 :) Jan 10 12:40:10 yay, 100 user Jan 10 12:40:26 heh, nice Jan 10 12:40:29 stefan_schmidt: and what do you want on that button? "reset" "scream" "nuke" or "send a funny packet to kill the gsm network"? :) Jan 10 12:40:49 mickeyl: :) Perhaps just smaller. Jan 10 12:41:14 Kaloz: poweroff everything :) Jan 10 12:41:55 Welcome esden, you're the 100's user. :) What do you like to know? Jan 10 12:42:14 * mickeyl hands stefan_schmidt the "I'm your host tonite" hat Jan 10 12:42:29 heh Jan 10 12:43:54 stefan_schmidt: ... that is nice ... did I won a free neo? with a nice iPhone multitouch interface? ;) Jan 10 12:44:35 esden: NO, heh. Just allowed to ask a question which I try to answer. :) Jan 10 12:45:28 stefan_schmidt: humm ... I am afraid of asking questions that are already answered ... so I have to think a bit Jan 10 12:45:59 esden: Take your time. :) Jan 10 12:46:17 fosdem is in bruxels right Jan 10 12:46:21 right Jan 10 12:49:32 stefan_schmidt: The question that is really interesting me is which known libraries are the ones openmoko will contain. GTK is one that I heard of till now. uclibc? nulib? or even the stock glibc? what else? Jan 10 12:50:04 esden: afaik it will go with glibc by default, but i'm volunteering to change that asap to uclibc Jan 10 12:50:35 humm ... what about dietlibc? Jan 10 12:50:41 esden: glibc is also my last understanding. Jan 10 12:50:58 nah, for dietlibc you have to do a lot and you win less then with uclibc Jan 10 12:51:19 humm interesting ... fefe would not be happy ;) Jan 10 12:51:24 esden: All other libraries can be installed over the packaging system afterwards. Jan 10 12:52:23 stefan_schmidt: but the question is which libs are ported now? what you use to develop the current software. I know that possibly everything will be there later on if someone ports it. Jan 10 12:52:35 will there be a "LFS" kind of thing? Jan 10 12:53:07 NOT ported Jan 10 12:53:15 esden: As is based on openembedded all the stuff for 'porting' should be trivial for most stuff. Jan 10 12:53:17 xkr47: dunno what will come by default, but later the will be Jan 10 12:53:22 built, compiled but NOT ported Jan 10 12:53:47 if you build helloworld.c for your new pc then did you built or port it? Jan 10 12:53:54 esden: ? Jan 10 12:54:05 helloworld.py Jan 10 12:54:16 erm ... Jan 10 12:54:17 helloworld.d Jan 10 12:54:33 hrw|work: depens. helloworld.c is simple, but probably you have to port it if it's a more complex software and you are going with uclibc/dietlibc Jan 10 12:54:34 esden, what he's trying to say he expects everything to work just by compiling.. no porting necessary :) Jan 10 12:54:40 or so I think :-) Jan 10 12:54:54 erm ... that is a false assumption in my understanding Jan 10 12:55:07 the OE folks have a problem with the recent overuse of the term "port" Jan 10 12:55:07 well I might be thinking differently Jan 10 12:55:08 hrw|work: also, it cna be porting if your software was x86 or whatever arch only Jan 10 12:55:20 mickeyl, :) Jan 10 12:55:21 a port really is if you need to touch code to make it work on a different system Jan 10 12:55:38 mickeyl: i rather keep my opinion on OE :P Jan 10 12:55:39 Kaloz: I know that changing to get built for other arch is porting Jan 10 12:55:40 mickeyl: that is also my understanding Jan 10 12:55:53 but building XYZ for new arch is building NOT porting Jan 10 12:56:12 hrw|work: depends if you have to change the code :) this is all i wanted to say Jan 10 12:56:20 rewriting 2.4 kernel driver to 2.6 kernel is porting Jan 10 12:56:32 most stuff works out of the box, thankfully Jan 10 12:56:44 i.e. almost everything console Jan 10 12:56:58 * mickeyl can't wait to run tin on the Neo Jan 10 12:57:02 my favourite news reader Jan 10 12:57:20 hmm, mutt... Jan 10 12:57:26 ok ... then I reformulate my question ... which libraries are _NOW_ compiled and in binary form known to work on neo developer hardware Jan 10 12:57:47 * stefan_schmidt points to mickey Jan 10 12:58:24 everything necessary to get Gtk+ apps on X running Jan 10 12:58:26 esden: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/ - everything from here will be on Neo Jan 10 12:58:42 esden: and more ;d Jan 10 12:59:01 although probably only a handful is really usable Jan 10 12:59:07 on 480x640 @ 280dpi Jan 10 12:59:45 mickeyl: ok nice! but X is also bit vague. Which X implementation? Jan 10 13:00:09 hrw|work: thanks /me looking into the repo Jan 10 13:01:03 mickeyl: oh, X? i was hoping for directfb Jan 10 13:01:29 * mjr wasn't Jan 10 13:01:31 kdrive? Jan 10 13:01:44 X is good Jan 10 13:01:52 less hassle Jan 10 13:01:53 kdrive, yes Jan 10 13:02:31 that way we embrace all GUI toolkits people want to come up with Jan 10 13:02:43 and don't limit ourselves to Gtk+ and (an old version of) Qt Jan 10 13:02:50 [directfb-ports] Jan 10 13:03:42 mickeyl: nice ... you get some kind of lisp/scheme from me with a gui ;) Jan 10 13:03:54 and a gui lib ;) Jan 10 13:03:56 food break Jan 10 13:04:00 heh, cool, do that Jan 10 13:04:05 * mickeyl wanders off to do some actual development ... Jan 10 13:04:13 ~bon appetit Jan 10 13:04:14 mickeyl: have fun ... /me too Jan 10 13:04:28 methinks bon appetit is smacznego. Guten Appetit. Eet Smakelijk. God Appetitt. Buon Appetito. Buen apetito Bom Apetite. buen apetito Smaklig måltid!. Hyvää ruokahalua. Bo Proveito Jan 10 13:04:33 * esden still has to finish that qt widget that understands scheme definitions of packets ... >_< Jan 10 13:04:38 hrw|work, maybe you shouldn't have posted that url.. :) Jan 10 13:04:44 now everybody will spam it.. Jan 10 13:22:39 hackers lunchbox: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8177 Jan 10 13:43:52 hehe Jan 10 13:52:51 suppose we got a skype binary for arm and x11, is the s3c2410 fast enough? Jan 10 14:06:46 buz_: Probably nobody beside skype.com can tell you that. I know that they offer only text chat for PDA/smartphones. Problems to consider: GPRS is clearly not enough bandwidth. Even UMTS would have the latency problem. Jan 10 14:07:15 well i was looking towards Bluetooth PAN Jan 10 14:07:58 (I do know about GPRS from first experiences, because I had to use GPRS as a "DSL replacement" for two weeks two years ago. It sucks for such.) Jan 10 14:07:58 i was under the intention that there was a full blown voip skype for winmobile Jan 10 14:07:58 s/intention/impression/ Jan 10 14:07:59 buz_ meant: i was under the impression that there was a full blown voip skype for winmobile Jan 10 14:08:04 buz_: Well, I didn't use skype in a year or so, but back then it was a chat-only ;) Jan 10 14:08:43 methinks getting an open phone to run skype on is a bit... strange ;] Jan 10 14:09:21 well if i could convince everybody to use openwengo or some other sip softphone... Jan 10 14:09:35 buz_: yeah, it seems they have a beta of a version that can do voip on winmobile. Jan 10 14:10:49 buz_: http://www.skype.com/download/skype/mobile/download_beta.html <- you can check if comparable phones are supported. Admittingly I wouldn't care to much about skype ;) Jan 10 14:11:37 woot, voip Jan 10 14:12:50 will the screen act as a read-only console at bootup? Jan 10 14:14:30 xkr47: considering the phone doesn't have serial or ethernet, I sure hope so Jan 10 14:14:50 xkr47: otherwise kernel upgrades will be horrible Jan 10 14:15:28 could one connect a externally powered keyboard as console keyboard ? Jan 10 14:15:37 through usb Jan 10 14:16:01 almost said "yes", but yeah, I don't rightly know about the "console" bit Jan 10 14:16:11 hi Jan 10 14:16:23 /whois xfxf Jan 10 14:16:28 \o/ Jan 10 14:17:01 I'm using gpe-irc has a few peculiarities Jan 10 14:17:27 := Jan 10 14:17:29 :) Jan 10 14:18:10 xkr47 seen the new iphone? Jan 10 14:19:22 I just read the the iPhone will not allow you to install your own software - it'll only run what apple puts on it Jan 10 14:19:52 ouch surley they will open up to developers eventually? Jan 10 14:20:19 I really really hope that's not true, Jan 10 14:20:34 but that gives a huge advantage to the neo! Jan 10 14:20:40 I hope there will be a version of the Neo with wifi that's the only thing I'm really missing Jan 10 14:21:03 oh and 3g but that can wait;) Jan 10 14:21:52 actually, now that we have bluetooth, I'm almost more wanting 3g than wifi Jan 10 14:21:58 what web browser does openmoko use, I tried minmo recently and appart from bookmark problems it runs really great on my z Jan 10 14:22:05 z=zaurus collie Jan 10 14:22:30 (but anyway, bluetooth, yay, just sell me the thing already ;) Jan 10 14:23:01 well with usb and a powered hub may be able to get wi fi via an usb adapter Jan 10 14:23:23 bit of a clunky solution though Jan 10 14:24:11 hi jtokash2 Jan 10 14:24:22 brb Jan 10 14:27:46 * xorAxAx renames channel to #apple-iphone Jan 10 14:28:20 oh yeah 2160p hdtv Jan 10 14:28:24 gimme gimme gimme Jan 10 14:29:38 btw, the neo is doomed without full hd display Jan 10 14:32:11 now that would be an impressive ppi Jan 10 14:32:48 mjr: bluetooth confirmed now? Jan 10 14:32:54 * benJIman reads the topic Jan 10 14:32:59 ah yes :) Jan 10 14:33:58 yesyesyes Jan 10 14:34:09 * mjr does the Bluetooth victory dance. Again. Jan 10 14:34:49 http://www.pcmag.com/print_article2/0,1217,a=198182,00.asp Jan 10 14:35:01 "Whoever writes the most popular application gets a free phone, that sort of thing," he said. Jan 10 14:35:10 Sean said, that is.. :) Jan 10 14:38:24 Anyone have thoughts on how the iPhone announcement will affect the openmoko? Jan 10 14:38:54 <[g2]> "twice the pixels, 1/2 the cost, 10 X the value" :) Jan 10 14:39:12 <[g2]> and it's open Jan 10 14:39:39 <[g2]> "openmoko pairs Apple down" Jan 10 14:39:41 well I think that the keyboard interface sux for iphone I Jan 10 14:40:16 the fact it is open is big plus Jan 10 14:40:29 flickerfly: I think this was a good summary: http://gondwanaland.com/mlog/2007/01/09/icandy/ Jan 10 14:40:37 apple not even releasing sdk Jan 10 14:42:14 <[g2]> "running on anything that moves", I like that part Jan 10 14:42:23 do we have authoritative confirmation that that's true - that apple won't allow 3rd party developers? Jan 10 14:43:16 from sean: device delayed till feb, but bluetooth is in Jan 10 14:43:26 ^ via mailing list Jan 10 14:44:46 no wifi though:( Jan 10 14:45:36 wifi was ruled out far earlier... no suitable low power chips (without tainting the kernel) Jan 10 14:59:29 does anyone know what web browser openmoko will use? Jan 10 15:04:33 oh well will find out soon enough guess it won t be safari;) Jan 10 15:13:25 yup Jan 10 15:14:33 night all Jan 10 15:16:57 anyone know the window manager the FIC Neo1973 uses? can it run E16 or E17? Jan 10 15:17:13 matchbox, anything you want Jan 10 15:17:21 jthomas: I think the whole point is that you can put whatever wm you want on it Jan 10 15:19:18 i get that, but unless its in the repositories, i don't know much about porting software to a new playform. much?? rather, i know nothing. Jan 10 15:23:08 jthomas: This won't really require porting so much as recompiling. Jan 10 15:23:24 jthomas: My guess is the repos will fill with the various wms fairly quickly. Jan 10 15:23:46 i want kde there Jan 10 15:24:31 yeah i want kde too i just think E will be faster and pretty sweet on a phone Jan 10 15:24:42 jjazz you're prob right about filling up Jan 10 15:26:07 jthomas: As soon as they release a cross-compiler and SDK, things will start to move Jan 10 15:29:04 anyone know about screen orientation? can it go wide? Jan 10 15:29:25 either via software or automagically? Jan 10 15:38:36 jthomas: I doubt it does it automagically, that would require specific hardware Jan 10 15:38:47 xrandr.. Jan 10 15:38:48 jthomas: doing so with software aught to be feasable. Jan 10 15:39:22 for videos, etc? that would be grand! Jan 10 15:39:28 *sigh* Jan 10 15:39:31 "porting" Jan 10 15:40:01 doing widescreen for videos ought to be pretty trivial, actually. Jan 10 15:40:14 jjazz: the cross-compiler is already out there: http://openembedded.org Jan 10 15:40:39 koen: Yes, you're right. Jan 10 15:40:45 I was not thinking Jan 10 15:41:07 PirateHead, yeah, probably easiest to have the video player to do 90 degree rotation Jan 10 15:41:13 so you can get started *right now* with making software available for the neo Jan 10 15:41:34 but the X server _could_ support rotation too via xrandr. Don't know if it does. Jan 10 15:41:56 mjr: it does Jan 10 15:42:11 koen: I heard that xora ported mplayer to Neo Jan 10 15:42:14 The point is that it could, and with X being used on a device like this, I wouldn't be surprised to see it working pretty quickly. Jan 10 15:42:44 hrw|work: cool Jan 10 15:42:47 who needs mplayer when you have good players Jan 10 15:42:51 koen, fun fun Jan 10 15:43:05 hrw|work: I heard mickeyl ported gtk to the neo Jan 10 15:43:23 * sannes likes mplayer :) Jan 10 15:43:37 the mediaplayer in v1 will be based on mplayer Jan 10 15:43:37 koen: can't be! awesome! Jan 10 15:43:55 mickeyl: you hacker! Jan 10 15:44:11 mplayer isn't very... impressive engineering-wise, but it _does_ play a lot of stuff Jan 10 15:44:16 hrw|work: maybe I should port my background images to the neo Jan 10 15:44:55 maybe I'll even port them from png to jpg Jan 10 15:44:56 mjr: I would like to see mplayer split into core+plugins Jan 10 15:45:01 jpg is ivil Jan 10 15:45:32 hrw, well, a more modular architecture _would_ be one way of making mplayer saner. Jan 10 15:46:14 mjr: s/more// Jan 10 15:46:20 mplayer is not modular Jan 10 15:46:26 its monolitic Jan 10 15:46:29 hrw|work, true :) Jan 10 15:46:38 so pretty much anything is _more_ modular, yes? ;) Jan 10 15:46:48 hrw|work: you'll get vlc then Jan 10 15:46:50 I heard rumours that the media player will use gstreamer in later versions Jan 10 15:46:55 if you split it to core+plugins Jan 10 15:47:30 and gstreamer is something i prefer avoiding:/ Jan 10 15:47:40 anyway, it'll be nice to have many apps portd. Jan 10 15:48:04 "ported" Jan 10 15:48:20 "compiled". Jan 10 15:48:23 "prepackaged". Jan 10 15:48:37 aahh it got delayed Jan 10 15:48:51 * koen is going to port his glas of water to lemonade Jan 10 15:49:12 after that I'll port my TV to on Jan 10 15:49:31 and use the remote to port the channel Jan 10 15:49:46 port is the new smurf Jan 10 15:50:23 and koen is pretty ported about that Jan 10 15:53:39 thresh_: why do you want to avoid gstreamer Jan 10 15:54:29 that would be a flamear Jan 10 15:54:30 war Jan 10 15:55:07 primarily because of gnome foundation. because of gnome libraries. Jan 10 15:55:15 :-) okay Jan 10 15:55:37 I can take your meaning, no need to start a war :-) Jan 10 15:55:51 :) Jan 10 15:57:32 thresh_: I'd say they might be to big for an embedded device. Jan 10 15:58:12 heh Jan 10 15:58:27 yacc: "they" ? Jan 10 15:58:50 yacc: does RidgeRun inc ring a bell? Jan 10 15:59:37 thresh_: I don't see any gnome libraries here: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?action=details&pnm=gstreamer Jan 10 16:01:12 yacc: gstreamer was designed to run on an low power arm cpu and peruse the dsp attached to it Jan 10 16:01:22 yacc: it's as 'embedded' as it gets Jan 10 16:20:29 koen: Ok, I associated it with a desktop ;) Jan 10 16:21:14 yacc: nokia is using it on their internet tablets Jan 10 16:21:58 ;) Jan 10 16:22:45 cu Jan 10 16:23:10 * yacc will suspend the whinings for a month, now that FIC has 'fessed up. Jan 10 16:23:33 yacc: s/month/3 weeks/ ;) Jan 10 16:24:40 Ooh, I just saw the ETA change! Jan 10 16:25:01 Disappointing, but at least more honest, eh? Jan 10 16:25:42 haha, as i said :) Jan 10 16:25:49 yeah god to know... is there a specific date now? Jan 10 16:25:54 \good to know Jan 10 16:26:17 Nope, now it just says Feb. Jan 10 16:26:21 (for early access) Jan 10 16:26:26 Which probably means later for the rest of us. Jan 10 16:26:39 who gets early access? anyone with cash? Jan 10 16:26:52 the web page still says Jan 2007 Jan 10 16:27:36 that's because of corporate timezones Jan 10 16:27:56 'feb' for us is 'jan' for them ;) Jan 10 16:29:01 I think that developers will get early access. Jan 10 16:29:35 If the Opera web browser shoots them an email saying they want to get started porting Opera to the Neo, they would get early access. Jan 10 16:29:48 But that's pretty wishful thinking. =D Jan 10 16:30:02 We'll probably be stuck with a pared-down Dillo. Jan 10 16:30:31 PirateHead: only if opera opensources their browser I guess Jan 10 16:31:01 koen: just because the phone is open source doesn't mean all the apps for it have to be. Jan 10 16:31:18 I could develop a proprietary app and distribute it for the OpenMoko platform if I wanted to. Jan 10 16:31:19 PirateHead: I have a different opinion :) Jan 10 16:31:46 Its closed-source-ness might be a barrier to acceptance by users, but there's nothing technilogically saying that I couldn't. Jan 10 16:32:41 I probably misspelled something there. Jan 10 16:32:47 o wellz Jan 10 16:32:57 PirateHead: sure, of course, provided you didn't use anything GPL'd. Jan 10 16:33:05 freedom includes the freedom to write closed-source stuff :) Jan 10 16:33:42 no, I could still use GPL'd stuff Jan 10 16:33:54 if I didn't modify the GPL'd source Jan 10 16:34:01 and I distributed and/or provided access to the source stuff that I used Jan 10 16:34:09 that would satisfy the GPL, and my app could still be proprietary Jan 10 16:34:22 you can't include gpl code directly into your app in that case Jan 10 16:34:31 you can link to lgpl code, like the c libs though Jan 10 16:34:31 I could even modify the GPL'd parts, providing I distributed the modifications Jan 10 16:34:59 PirateHead: you're actually describing the LGPL pretty well, but not the GPL :) Jan 10 16:35:21 Though realistically, I don't see why I would use GPL'd stuff. If I wanted to go all proprietary on your asses, I would use BSD licensed stuff. =D Jan 10 16:35:31 so_solid_moo: no Jan 10 16:35:35 so_solid_moo: I realize my mistake. I was thinking LGPL. =D Jan 10 16:35:50 so_solid_moo: given that modifies the kernel ... Jan 10 16:36:03 PirateHead: I think you're confused. Jan 10 16:36:43 xorAxAx: given that 'what' modifies the kernel? Jan 10 16:36:43 thanks for name change, was fumbling looking for my ` Jan 10 16:36:55 so_solid_moo: PirateHead Jan 10 16:37:02 cjb: can't you link to LGPL stuff in proprietary code? Jan 10 16:37:08 PirateHead: you can Jan 10 16:37:19 PirateHead: LGPL, not GPL. Jan 10 16:37:21 xorAxAx: that's irrelevant; I was talking about the license he was describing, not what software was covered by the license Jan 10 16:38:15 so_solid_moo: "18:04:10 < so_solid_moo> PirateHead: you're actually describing the LGPL pretty well, but not the GPL :) Jan 10 16:38:19 " Jan 10 16:38:21 so_solid_moo: is wrong Jan 10 16:38:40 xorAxAx: what aspect of the rules he mentioned is not like the LGPL? Jan 10 16:39:01 xoraxax: how? I was saying I could use GPL'd code in proprietary apps as long as yada yada, etc; and I was thinking LGPL. Jan 10 16:39:03 so_solid_moo: thats irrelevant Jan 10 16:39:05 18:03:43 < PirateHead> I could even modify the GPL'd parts, providing I distributed the modifications Jan 10 16:39:12 that is possible even in gpl scenarios Jan 10 16:39:17 xoraxax: and so_solid_mooo pointed it out Jan 10 16:39:20 xorAxAx: you totally don't understand what I said. Jan 10 16:39:30 so_solid_moo: then explain it :) Jan 10 16:39:58 xorAxAx: he was talking about how he could use GPL'd software linked with a proprietary app Jan 10 16:40:38 so_solid_moo: yes Jan 10 16:40:45 gplled source is the kernel in my example Jan 10 16:40:53 he is using it, through indirect syscalls Jan 10 16:41:14 right. So you cannot do that, even if you distribute the source you used and modifications you did or didn't make, if you link to it. Jan 10 16:41:22 lol, that's bullshit xoraxax Jan 10 16:41:28 PirateHead: why?!? Jan 10 16:41:43 that's like saying proprietary java code violates the GPL and is illegal Jan 10 16:41:54 so_solid_moo: he can modify the kernel and ship proprietary apps at the same time Jan 10 16:41:55 just because it *can* run indirectly on a GPL'd kernel Jan 10 16:42:02 there's an exception in the GPL for compilers/operating systems. Jan 10 16:42:06 PirateHead: no, that was not my point Jan 10 16:42:09 cjb: exactly Jan 10 16:42:33 libgcc has a gpl exception Jan 10 16:42:42 thats unrelated :) Jan 10 16:42:42 xorAxAx: we're talking about using gpl'd code, not running on a free os Jan 10 16:42:47 but another example, maybe Jan 10 16:42:59 so_solid_moo: no, we are talking about modifications Jan 10 16:43:17 in GPLed code and the usage ofthem in closed apps Jan 10 16:43:28 xorAxAx: go read the discussion again. Jan 10 16:44:05 no, i just want to point out that this is right: Jan 10 16:44:06 "18:03:43 < PirateHead> I could even modify the GPL'd parts, providing I distributed the modifications Jan 10 16:44:08 (I frequently wish I could say that in real life) Jan 10 16:44:20 xorAxAx: sure, the GPL always allows you to redistribute modifications Jan 10 16:44:56 so_solid_moo: but it doesnt allow you to distribute the closed app together with it if they are linked Jan 10 16:45:23 ... which is why I said using GPL'd code like that isn't possible, but LGPL'd is. Jan 10 16:45:47 yes Jan 10 16:45:59 yes Jan 10 16:46:32 and even then, i regularly experience coworkers who prefer to copy lgpl code into the closed app ... Jan 10 16:46:52 you can't copy and paste lgpl code into a closed app Jan 10 16:46:56 right Jan 10 16:47:39 closed apps are a total quagmire Jan 10 16:48:49 (which is why we're sitting in #openmoko =D) Jan 10 16:50:07 "appropriating" someone else's code is bad, Jan 10 16:50:16 whether you're writing a closed app or an open app Jan 10 16:50:47 but, it just so happens, the folks who have generously written open source code Jan 10 16:51:06 often allow you to use it in your own app, PROVIDED that you open your app as well Jan 10 16:51:26 one of the problems is that java doesnt allow another solution to the problem Jan 10 16:51:47 I keep hoping to see old proprietary stuff that I used to use open up. Jan 10 16:51:48 except patching at runtime using dirty reflection Jan 10 16:51:57 the Jarte word processor for Windows, for example Jan 10 16:53:06 when I get rich, I'm gonna buy tons of old video games from their owners and open them all up - media, source code, rights, and all Jan 10 16:53:48 I hate seeing those old classics collecting dust when I could be messing with them :) Jan 10 16:55:52 yeah, sadly it doesn't work that way. stuff doesn't open up, it just disappears still encumbered. Jan 10 16:56:07 :-) When I get rich I'm going to buy Microsoft and opensource exchange, AD. Then I'm going to enforce standards compliance (real standards, not the type marketing talks about) Jan 10 16:57:49 cjb: what do you mean? Blender was bought and then opened up. Jan 10 17:03:10 there would've been a chance to do that with atari in the late 90's... too late now tho Jan 10 17:03:18 (it sold for about $10mil) Jan 10 17:11:29 PirateHead: I mean that 99.5% of application aren't that lucky. :) Jan 10 17:12:16 cjb: I guess I've only heard the success stories. Jan 10 17:12:27 The failed ones don't make it to slashdot? Jan 10 17:12:37 Yeah. Well, like you say, just think of all the software you used to use. Jan 10 17:27:26 cjb: the software I used to use is still around. It's just seldom ever updated or anything. Jan 10 17:28:02 cjb: I would even help them update it if they would let me -- but that would require me becoming an employee, and they don't pay employees to work on that software right now Jan 10 17:28:17 cjb: opening old programs would solve that Jan 10 17:42:28 you've probably seen this already http://lwn.net/Articles/217020/ but its the final specs for the Neo1973. Also available will be a "Hacker's Lunchbox", but there are no details. Anyone have ideas? Jan 10 17:42:48 I am hoping for a wifi-and-keybd portable docking station... Jan 10 17:43:10 jthomas: the lunchbox is some kind of hardware access system Jan 10 17:43:35 a useful one for the average user? or is it really hacker-level? Jan 10 17:43:57 hardware access as in chips, soldering irons, that kind of thing Jan 10 17:44:06 wires and stuff. Jan 10 17:44:31 daamn! this thing is so nearly a computer! why can't they give us the keybd and wifi some how!? Jan 10 17:48:03 space? Jan 10 17:48:18 i know, but more as an add-on with its own power Jan 10 17:48:30 a dock of sorts Jan 10 17:54:21 Has the price for the Neo been sugggested/announced? Jan 10 17:54:48 $350 was suggested. Jan 10 17:55:49 w00t it has built-in bluetooth Jan 10 17:56:05 it has 2 "additional buttons"? as in hardware buttons?? Jan 10 17:57:07 that's what they said Jan 10 17:57:24 I'll hold out for the hacker's lunchbox Jan 10 17:57:53 boy, it's gonna be a long wait to Feb =D Jan 10 18:03:57 Would it be possible to use a wifi microsd card? Jan 10 18:04:26 no Jan 10 18:04:34 wont fit Jan 10 18:04:40 What won't fit? Jan 10 18:04:49 wifi microsd card Jan 10 18:05:09 microsd slot is under battery so only memory cards fit Jan 10 18:05:15 Ah. Ok Jan 10 18:06:08 I have to say, wifi really is the thing that keeps this device from being worth $350 to me Jan 10 18:07:56 whats needed to get early access ? any idea when general availability will be? Jan 10 18:08:20 jjazz: I count on developer discount Jan 10 18:08:20 hrw: agreed Jan 10 18:10:54 jjazz, i agree - the wifi is a huge limitation. and i don't know what it takes to get a devel discount, but i am sure that i don't qualify... Jan 10 18:11:06 * yacc wonders what the car kit will be and what will be in the hacker's lunchbox ;) Jan 10 18:11:51 hello folks Jan 10 18:11:59 hullo! Jan 10 18:12:39 yacc: hacker's lunchbox contains cup of noodles and jolt Jan 10 18:13:32 jjazz: I don't think that FIC has a license to sell food ;) Jan 10 18:13:37 too bad that larger flash chips does not fit Jan 10 18:13:45 jjazz: what kind of noodles, if it isn't the ones I like I don't think I'm getting a openmoko neo1973 after all .. Jan 10 18:14:04 ~dict noodle Jan 10 18:14:06 Dictionary 'noodle' (2 of 6): \Noo"dle\, n. [Cf. {Noddle}, {Noddy}.] 1. A simpleton; a blockhead; a stupid person; a ninny. [Low] [1913 Webster] The chuckling grin of noodles. --Sydney Smith. [1913 Webster] 2. The head; also, {noddle}; -- used jocosely or contemptuously; as, use your noodle. Syn: noggin. [PJC] ;; a ribbonlike strip of pasta. Jan 10 18:14:41 Hey guys, our team is investigating replacing the proprietary GPS stack on the OpenMoko. I've got some hardware questions.... any takers? Jan 10 18:15:09 pben: no hardware guys now Jan 10 18:15:10 jjazz: you'd not get much time with wifi Jan 10 18:15:30 benJIman: I know, which is why I completely understand them not including it. Jan 10 18:15:31 * benJIman wonders if anyone sells self contained bluetooth <-> wifi bridges Jan 10 18:15:49 thx hrw Jan 10 18:15:59 The price is pretty reasonable compared to say the greenphone Jan 10 18:16:27 benJIman: Yes. My willingness to pay it is more a reflection of it's actual utility to me than it's worth in the market. Jan 10 18:16:35 pben: and they are rather busy with getting phone ready for devels/users Jan 10 18:16:46 pben: got a project page? Would want to know of your progress :) Jan 10 18:17:12 pben: my understanding was that the non-free daemon is only needed for AGPS mode Jan 10 18:27:46 <_buz> so_solid_moo: someone said we need the gpsd for gps as well Jan 10 18:27:51 <_buz> because it actually does most of the work Jan 10 18:28:16 that's my understanding as well Jan 10 18:28:50 benJIman: That won't work to well. From my Nokia I do know, that enabling wlan usually kills the headset bluetooth connection. Jan 10 18:28:57 hm, actually, you might be right: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000537.html Jan 10 18:28:58 gpsd API is well known in linux Jan 10 18:29:12 benJIman: It seems that there is interference :( Jan 10 18:33:11 yacc: yeah of course they use same frequency range, I'd forgotten Jan 10 18:35:22 benJIman: Well I did find something, but it seems there are currently none sold: http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=104805 Jan 10 18:39:14 woops was away from keyboard Jan 10 18:39:27 Our project is at www.gpstk.org Jan 10 18:40:22 we're just looking at feasibility right now.. if we can do it we'll no doubt put up OpenMoko/gpstk page Jan 10 18:46:01 pben: it looks like gpstk is what we need to replace agpsd Jan 10 18:47:26 koen: the potential may be there... it depends on the hardware and the api(s) Jan 10 18:47:43 does it is API compatible? Jan 10 18:48:07 <_buz> mhh bluetooth wireless router looks svelte Jan 10 18:48:41 hrw: are you asking if GPSTk is open source? Jan 10 18:49:15 pben: I know that this is Open. I ask does it is API compatible with gpsd if it has to replace it. Jan 10 18:49:30 pben: iirc gps soft on linux use gpsd to communicate with gps devices Jan 10 18:49:45 hrw: sort of Jan 10 18:50:01 hrw: lots of apps just expect gpsd to feed them nmea Jan 10 18:50:33 so if any other app will talk NMEA to them they will not even notice? Jan 10 18:51:15 hrw: from what I gather (not a gpsd user) gpsd provides error corrections over TCP/IP Jan 10 18:52:31 hrw: so gpsd could help OpenMojo but can't be the basis for its navigation processing Jan 10 18:52:56 hrw: that's the idea Jan 10 18:53:03 hrw: bind to port 2497 and spew data Jan 10 18:53:18 sane apps use a different interface to gpsd Jan 10 18:55:34 i've got a dumb question about OpenMoko... does it use gcc for development? Jan 10 18:55:56 the developers do Jan 10 18:56:08 * _buz wonders how exact openmoko gps will be (in the open) Jan 10 18:57:42 NOTE: package gpstk-1.2-r0: task do_compile: started Jan 10 18:59:16 koen: going to be prepared? Jan 10 18:59:29 sssssht Jan 10 18:59:32 I'm busy porting Jan 10 18:59:37 * koen coughs Jan 10 19:00:03 hrw: maybe we should replace do_compile with do_port Jan 10 19:00:26 ah yes.. Jan 10 19:00:46 hmmm Jan 10 19:00:50 do_fetch/do_unpack/do_hack/do_tweak/do_port... Jan 10 19:01:12 if the gps program provides nmea it should be possible to use the neo as a 'virtual' bluetooth gps device Jan 10 19:01:42 even if it doesn't, you can use gpsbabel to convert it to nmea Jan 10 19:03:38 point :) Jan 10 19:05:06 i'm really glad bluetooth's in now - even with a high-res screen there are times a full laptop's a lot better for something and it should be possible using openmoko to make that go a lot smoother than ever before Jan 10 19:06:14 this channel is set to +s by the way... Jan 10 19:07:21 pben: is 'make install' supposed to install gpstk? Jan 10 19:08:21 one sec afk... Jan 10 19:14:33 So what will be in this car kit? *wonder* Jan 10 19:14:50 hacker lunchbox sounds more interesting Jan 10 19:14:55 handsfree kit? Jan 10 19:14:55 yeah Jan 10 19:14:55 yacc: phone holder Jan 10 19:15:16 And the lunch box? Jan 10 19:15:40 yacc: knife and few other lunch tools :D Jan 10 19:15:49 * koen suspects powered hub Jan 10 19:16:43 and extra connector: serial/jtag/usb Jan 10 19:20:07 koen: sorry for lack of response. boss in office. :-) Jan 10 19:21:45 koen: make install won't work. you have to autogen first to create configure. we usually don't use make, we use the 'jam' utility to make the gpstk. (jam supports windows) Jan 10 19:22:23 pben: did all that, everything is built, but the install part in the makefiles is empty Jan 10 19:23:31 koen@bitbake:/data/build/koen/OE/build/tmp/angstrom/work/armv5te-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/gpstk-1.2-r0/gpstk-1.2/apps/time$ file calgpscalgps: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.14, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped Jan 10 19:24:21 anyone have an openembedded local.conf that actually builds against the current tip? I'm having way too much trouble.. Jan 10 19:24:45 I don't even care what target arch, if I could just get *something* to compile successfully Jan 10 19:25:13 Tv: OE/conf/local.conf.sample Jan 10 19:28:38 http://www.openembedded.org/~koen/OE/gpstk_1.2.bb Jan 10 19:29:30 any known good MACHINE and DISTRO? Jan 10 19:29:58 Tv: angstrom-2007.1/h2200 Jan 10 19:41:46 "iPhone not legal in US yet" funny: http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36856 Jan 10 19:42:04 Tv: x86/generic built a week ago or so. logicpd-pxa270/generic should build. Jan 10 19:42:20 yeah currently crunching angstrom Jan 10 19:42:34 we'll see how this goes Jan 10 19:43:03 Tv: any ARMv4+ with angstrom-2007.1 (except compulab-pxa270) or any ARMv4 (plus compulab-pxa270) with angstrom-2007.1-oabi ;D Jan 10 19:43:19 Have there been any announcement about approx. price for the openmoko? Jan 10 19:43:30 hm.. gunna have to do some test when it comes out to see which bluetooth dongle gives the best results with the neo Jan 10 19:44:24 flickerfly: Still 350$ Jan 10 19:45:12 stefan_schmidt: thanks. Where is info like that foundL Jan 10 19:45:21 s/L/? Jan 10 19:45:53 flickerfly: They wrote it to ml some time ago. Jan 10 19:46:34 oh, maybe I should go search the archives. Thanks Jan 10 19:47:17 * stefan_schmidt hopes he was right with his statement. :) Jan 10 19:47:39 * flickerfly nods Jan 10 19:50:02 koen: I can't reproduce your problem with gpstk's make system. problem with my system. i'll post a question to the developer list to see if anyone has actually installed using make and not with jam Jan 10 19:50:40 pben: we can write do_install() part by hand in OE recipe but prefer to avoid it Jan 10 20:01:09 <_buz> mhh i wonder if there is something like a microsd to cable to minisd adapter? Jan 10 20:02:10 <_buz> to shoehorn a minisd wlan hard into the case somehow Jan 10 20:02:13 I do not even recognize which is which (micro<>mini) Jan 10 20:02:30 <_buz> (ive seen cable based pci risers before so it's not totally out of whack, just very nearly so) Jan 10 20:03:10 hrw, http://www.geheugenkaartjes.nl/images/nieuws/microsd_minisd_blue.png Jan 10 20:03:58 <_buz> now thats a reallllyy bad comparison Jan 10 20:26:51 any pricing information available? Jan 10 20:27:04 350$ Jan 10 20:30:34 hrm, that'll take alot of digging through my pockets to find, ah well Jan 10 21:11:39 <_buz> oh Jan 10 21:11:50 <_buz> sandisk now ships minisdhc cards with 4G Jan 10 21:12:22 mini or micro? Jan 10 21:13:15 <_buz> mini Jan 10 21:13:26 ok Jan 10 21:13:27 <_buz> then again Jan 10 21:13:36 <_buz> there will be very few devices that can actually do sdhc Jan 10 21:14:05 * stefan_schmidt has seen today that 2GB microSD cards are available for 50 EUR Jan 10 21:14:29 <_buz> which is a shame Jan 10 21:14:35 <_buz> 2G minisd is half of that Jan 10 21:14:53 <_buz> and i think the neo cant use more than 1G anyway? Jan 10 21:15:35 that's been the word... Jan 10 21:15:54 is that a hardware flaw? the latest mmc/ stuff in Linux supports >2G now. Jan 10 21:16:03 (we're using it on the OLPC.) Jan 10 21:16:24 as far as I've heard a limitation of the SOC Jan 10 21:16:33 SOC? Jan 10 21:16:35 Where get you this 1GB limit from? Jan 10 21:16:38 system-on-a-chip Jan 10 21:16:45 but I'm no official source Jan 10 21:16:51 hmm Jan 10 21:16:52 stefan_schmidt: there was a 1G limit in the public SD spec for a very long time. Jan 10 21:17:07 the later spec only came out last October or so. Jan 10 21:17:49 ok, I'll wait for my device and test 1GB and 2GB cards with it. :) Jan 10 21:19:23 is sd hc a protocol change or just a term meaning "you need/this supports fat32"? Jan 10 21:19:33 I'd just rather hear a definitive word so I can decide what capacity of microSD to buy :] Jan 10 21:20:43 * stefan_schmidt has other phones with microSD flying around. One of this should support 2GB card. :) Jan 10 21:24:49 <_buz> mjr: each day you hold of buying microsd, it gets cheaper Jan 10 21:24:59 <_buz> cbpage: its protocol change Jan 10 21:25:13 <_buz> it's now sector addressing as opposed to byteadressing according to wikipeida Jan 10 21:25:34 yeah well, I won't be buying before my Neo order is in Jan 10 21:25:47 but then again I will probably order the microsd from overseas as well, can't wait too long Jan 10 21:26:05 or overland, as the case may be Jan 10 21:32:48 according to one spec sd/mmc cards larger then 1G had to use blocks larger then 512 bytes - thats the reason. We got patch for sd/mmc subsystem which set block to 512 bytes always so >1GB cards works. Jan 10 21:32:58 thats probably whole problem Jan 10 21:33:48 hrw|gone: yes, that's exactly right. Jan 10 21:33:51 SDHC support is going to be added in 2.6.21/22 probably as there are first versions of specification Jan 10 21:34:00 s/specification/implementation Jan 10 21:34:28 I used 2GB card in pxa255 system Jan 10 21:35:10 sdhc specification changed some structs Jan 10 21:36:57 sdhc support is in -mm queue Jan 10 21:37:23 yes. so, openmoko should have no trouble with large SD. Jan 10 21:37:39 does it support the higher bus speed high-speed SD too? Jan 10 21:37:42 support is in 2.6.20-rc3-mm1 Jan 10 21:37:51 openmoko use 2.6.17.14 Jan 10 21:38:32 cjb: highspeed cards can work slower without problem Jan 10 21:38:50 yeah, that's true. Jan 10 21:39:06 all SD/MMC/MMC4 cards are able to be used as 1bit mmc cards nevermind were they was 1/4/8 bit ones Jan 10 21:39:49 pxa25x support 1bit, pxa27x 1&4bit Jan 10 21:39:58 do not know about s3c2410 Jan 10 21:41:44 didn't pxa255 support 4bit, but sharp didn't connect those pins? Jan 10 21:41:57 hm. Jan 10 21:42:13 I do not have armarm here Jan 10 21:43:06 ~armarm Jan 10 21:43:08 it has been said that armarm is at http://www.altera.com/literature/third-party/ddi0100e_arm_arm.pdf Jan 10 21:43:35 ah.. wrong word ;D Jan 10 21:44:03 anyway fetched pxa255 devmanual Jan 10 21:44:07 its only 28M Jan 10 21:44:13 a while back people talked about armarm Jan 10 21:44:56 hrw|gone: when is that CELF conference in california, and are there still volunteers needed? Jan 10 21:45:38 <_buz> so can we go 2G in neo? Jan 10 21:45:46 <_buz> (or am i missing something) Jan 10 21:46:10 <_buz> maybe until summer we get 4G microsdhc Jan 10 21:46:17 <_buz> and get at least the small iphone storage ;) Jan 10 21:47:39 http://www.celinux.org/elc2007/index.html Jan 10 21:47:43 Location: Santa Clara, California Jan 10 21:47:44 Dates: April 17, 18, 19 (Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday), 2007 Jan 10 21:48:00 thanks Jan 10 21:49:37 koen: pxa255 - 1bit 20MHz Jan 10 21:49:58 Mbps Jan 10 21:50:14 pxa27x - 1bit 19.5Mbps or 4bit 78Mbps Jan 10 21:50:23 The MultiMediaCard/SD/SDIO controller provides the following key features: • Data-transfer rates up to 19.5 Mbps for MMC, 1-bit SD/SDIO, and SPI mode data transfers • Data-transfer rates up to 78 Mbps for 4-bit SD/SDIO data transfers Jan 10 21:51:44 hrw|gone: drat Jan 10 21:51:50 fscking samsung - only 5KB/s from server Jan 10 21:51:52 * koen was hoping for 4bit Jan 10 21:52:28 "samsung s3c2410 manual" - 4th hit in google == Neo Jan 10 21:52:47 yeah, that's a shame; with such a small nand, it would be great to have fast SD. Jan 10 21:53:55 — 1bit / 4bit (wide bus) Mode & Block / Stream Mode Switch support Jan 10 21:53:57 2410 Jan 10 21:54:09 <_buz> i dont anything can be truly be considered fast about the s3c2410 Jan 10 21:55:09 NOTES Jan 10 21:55:09 . In case of MMC, the maximum clock for data transfer is 10 MHz. Jan 10 21:56:15 cu Jan 10 21:58:27 * koen wonders about scratchbox2 support for openmoko Jan 10 21:59:49 i wonder when a 130nm (or smaller) version of the 2410'll go into full production Jan 10 22:58:37 hi Jan 10 23:42:50 * Dex Hi all Jan 11 01:08:07 aww, no wifi Jan 11 01:11:00 No wifi makes funnyhappy-cat sad :( Jan 11 01:11:06 yeah, or something :P Jan 11 01:11:21 now, the apps -- are they in java like other phones? Jan 11 01:26:11 seemant, you could use java, or C or perl or anything you want, its linux :P Jan 11 01:36:20 ok Jan 11 01:38:56 C rules supreme as far as I'm concerned. Never liked Java much for some reason :/ Jan 11 01:38:58 Programming grafics is something i need to look into, though. Jan 11 01:38:59 Anyone got any pointers on that? Jan 11 02:12:51 would be great if we could get the neo to run apps created in lazarus Jan 11 02:13:08 for gui stuff it would make stuff easy Jan 11 02:14:21 http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/images/7/78/Lazarus_IDE_Windows.jpg Jan 11 02:18:25 is that any relation to glade? Jan 11 02:18:58 does it have runtime dependencies? Jan 11 02:19:40 oh, heh, pascal, I thought pascal was dead Jan 11 02:19:48 Any news on when the first openmoko cellphone will be available for purchase and how to purchase? Jan 11 02:20:06 see topic Jan 11 02:23:27 so is there any preliminary 3rd party development going on? Emulators? SDKs? Jan 11 02:23:33 spikebik1, its basicly a freeware version of kylix Jan 11 02:23:38 documentation? :) Jan 11 02:27:31 ah, well glade provides similar (if not significantly better functionality) and lets you program in several current languages Jan 11 02:28:09 I suspect it's not a good fit for openmoko though Jan 11 02:28:27 since it would likely depend on large gnome libs and not optimized for a tiny screen/memory footprint Jan 11 02:34:20 hopfully someone will mod it Jan 11 02:37:58 bleh, pascal :P **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jan 11 02:59:58 2007