**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jan 18 02:59:57 2007
Jan 18 04:58:05 <Paladine> you guys rock
Jan 18 04:58:42 <ciastek> yeah, they do :]
Jan 18 04:58:53 <Paladine> Ijust found out about the phone tonight
Jan 18 04:59:00 <Paladine> and I am aroused
Jan 18 04:59:06 <Paladine> if you will excuse me
Jan 18 04:59:16 <Paladine> when is it due for release in the UK?
Jan 18 04:59:31 <thedaniel> Paladine: see /topic
Jan 18 04:59:35 <Paladine> yeah just saw it
Jan 18 04:59:37 <Paladine> sorry ;)
Jan 18 04:59:42 <Paladine> just over excited
Jan 18 04:59:48 <thedaniel> haha np
Jan 18 05:00:28 <Paladine> direct sale world wide, thats a really nice concept
Jan 18 05:00:43 <Paladine> nothing worse that staggered releases across different countries
Jan 18 05:02:01 <thedaniel> Paladine: considering it's an unlocked phone using a global standard, there's no reason for a staggered release. i'm quite excited too - there's apparently some announcement about the phone and the OpenMoko project roadmap Friday
Jan 18 05:02:26 <Paladine> I can't wait to buy one and laugh at people with apple's <insert-non-trademarked-name-here>
Jan 18 05:02:27 <thedaniel> (that is, friday in GMT + 10 or so)
Jan 18 05:03:03 <Paladine> I can't believe I only heard about this tonight
Jan 18 05:03:10 <Paladine> I don't normally miss stuflike this
Jan 18 05:06:42 <hugh_> hi
Jan 18 05:06:57 <Paladine> hi
Jan 18 05:07:06 <hugh_> the FIC Neo1973 has no wifi?
Jan 18 05:07:33 <hugh_> ??
Jan 18 05:08:05 <ciastek> yes, because of price, battery and no open chips in short :]
Jan 18 05:08:32 <freak132> hugh_, wifi would make it alot more expensive, if you want initial penetration when you dont have carrier subsidies you want to keep the price down
Jan 18 05:08:44 <Paladine> and it has usb2
Jan 18 05:08:45 <hugh_> oh
Jan 18 05:08:54 <Paladine> so I suspect a USB2>Wifi adapter would be fine
Jan 18 05:08:58 <ciastek> no, usb1.1
Jan 18 05:09:03 <hugh_> hmm
Jan 18 05:09:20 <Paladine> oh the review I read said usb2
Jan 18 05:09:20 <hugh_> that would make it much bigger tho
Jan 18 05:09:26 <Paladine> but eventhen usb1 will work fine :)
Jan 18 05:10:07 <ciastek> no usb2 also because of price as far as i noticed here
Jan 18 05:10:12 <hugh_> how much will it be?
Jan 18 05:10:24 <ciastek> and memory card wont be hotswapable :]
Jan 18 05:10:35 <ciastek> hugh_, price?
Jan 18 05:10:37 <hugh_> yup
Jan 18 05:10:43 <ciastek> $350
Jan 18 05:10:49 <hugh_> jesus
Jan 18 05:11:02 <hugh_> USD?
Jan 18 05:11:06 <ciastek> yes
Jan 18 05:11:16 <hugh_> 350 usd and no wifi!?!?
Jan 18 05:11:26 <Paladine> $350 USD is cheap for a phone
Jan 18 05:11:31 <Paladine> even cheaper for a smart phone
Jan 18 05:11:40 <Paladine> and even cheaper still for a smartphone with GPS
Jan 18 05:12:48 <hugh_> well yea, but the nintendo ds is about 150 bucks (?) and the battery lasts 10 hrs and it has wifi
Jan 18 05:13:56 <Paladine> and it doesn't have gps, gsm
Jan 18 05:14:00 <Paladine> and it isn't opensource
Jan 18 05:14:14 <Paladine> you are comparing apples to oranges
Jan 18 05:14:18 <ciastek> and you dont want your phone's battery to last 10 hrs ;)
Jan 18 05:14:37 <hugh_> oh right...
Jan 18 05:14:39 <Paladine> I don't need my phone battery to last 10 hours
Jan 18 05:14:46 <Paladine> I don't have 10 hour phone calls
Jan 18 05:15:04 <ciastek> i thought about standby ;)
Jan 18 05:15:08 <hugh_> openmoko will have gps?
Jan 18 05:15:13 <Paladine> yes
Jan 18 05:15:18 <Paladine> it has gps
Jan 18 05:15:27 <Paladine> unless the review I readis totally wrong
Jan 18 05:15:27 <hugh_> it has gps but no wifi
Jan 18 05:20:12 <Paladine> some people eh?
Jan 18 05:20:53 <ciastek> hm?
Jan 18 05:23:22 <Paladine> is the price gonna be global? or is it gonna be like every other product that comes to the UK and be 2x as expensive as the rest of the world?
Jan 18 05:24:36 <thedaniel> direct sale worldwide seems to mean you send taiwan USD350 and they send you a phone
Jan 18 05:24:47 <thedaniel> and that's as complicated as it is
Jan 18 05:25:51 <Paladine> yeah thats what I assumed, but the british market has this annoying habit of charging a direct translation from USD to GBP
Jan 18 05:26:03 <Paladine> so like a product for $350 USD would be £350 (GBP)
Jan 18 05:26:07 <Paladine> which is almost 2x as much
Jan 18 05:26:58 <ciastek> Paladine, but you have very nice magazine - T3 ;]
Jan 18 05:27:46 <Paladine> I am not familiar with it, I avoid british culture as much as I possibly can
Jan 18 05:31:31 <Psi> do you think this roadmap announcement will tell us the exact date the phones will go on sale?
Jan 18 05:31:43 <Psi> or do ya think it wont be that specific
Jan 18 05:31:49 <Paladine> I suspect it is gonna be hard to get hold of
Jan 18 05:31:51 <cying> uh oh
Jan 18 05:31:53 <cying> no wifi?
Jan 18 05:31:55 <cying> :(
Jan 18 05:32:00 <Paladine> cos I expect it is going to be very popularr and will suffer the Wii syndrome
Jan 18 05:32:07 <Psi> hehe
Jan 18 05:32:23 <Psi> but we will hopefully find out sooner than everyone else
Jan 18 05:32:33 <Psi> since we are on the mailing lists etc
Jan 18 05:33:16 <Psi> but yeh, once the news of its availability hits slashdot, your right :P
Jan 18 05:33:45 <Paladine> its a nice thought not having to upgrade my phone every 12 months
Jan 18 05:34:00 <Paladine> although I expect I would buy the next gen model when it comes out :)
Jan 18 05:35:28 <Psi> the key will be to preorder it asap
Jan 18 05:35:39 <Paladine> yeah
Jan 18 05:35:52 <Paladine> thankfully I have a 2k limit on my credit card so that shouldn't be a problem :)
Jan 18 05:36:13 <Psi> hehe, i have $1k sitting in my bank all ready for it :)
Jan 18 05:36:36 <Paladine> well I have more in my bank, but I would only ever purchase from overseason my cc
Jan 18 05:37:03 <Psi> yeah, ill be getting it from my cc too, but ill just transfer the money into the cc first
Jan 18 05:37:06 <Paladine> free insurance :)
Jan 18 05:37:30 <Psi> cc only has a $500 limit and thats NZ$   neo will be something like NZ$650
Jan 18 05:38:19 <Paladine> it will come in at around 185GBP
Jan 18 05:38:25 <Paladine> for me
Jan 18 05:38:28 <Psi> actually, exchange rate is good atm, its more like nz $505
Jan 18 05:38:59 <Paladine> I hope this dude gets rich from this
Jan 18 05:39:03 <Psi> might not be that good when the phone comes out though
Jan 18 05:39:03 <ciastek> NZ = New Zeland?
Jan 18 05:39:06 <Psi> ya
Jan 18 05:39:40 <Paladine> see everyone is complaining about the %500 pricetag on the iPhone
Jan 18 05:39:47 <Psi> how much does a can of coke normally cost in the US? from a coke machine?
Jan 18 05:39:51 <Paladine> now I wouldn't buy an iPhone for any amount of money
Jan 18 05:39:56 <Paladine> all apple products are banned from my house
Jan 18 05:39:58 <Psi> i wanna do a comparison
Jan 18 05:40:04 <Paladine> but I would pay $500 for a true open linux phone
Jan 18 05:40:18 <Paladine> s/%500/$500
Jan 18 05:40:19 <freak132> the iPhone is 500$USD WITH contract, which is obscene
Jan 18 05:40:42 <thedaniel> Psi: at my office i believe it is UDS0.65
Jan 18 05:40:48 <thedaniel> s/UD/USD
Jan 18 05:40:53 <Paladine> freak132, well I hate apple with a passion, so I don't really care.  The only thing apple does for me is provide me amusement by laughing at their consumers
Jan 18 05:40:55 * Psi converts
Jan 18 05:41:22 <thedaniel> hmm. maybe it's 75 or 85, i don't drink a lot of soda. let me ask officemates
Jan 18 05:41:35 <Paladine> 75c last time I was in the US
Jan 18 05:41:40 <Paladine> from a vending machine
Jan 18 05:42:21 <Psi> its NZ$1.20 here, which is US$0.83
Jan 18 05:43:10 <Psi> so, looks to be pretty much the same, maybe a little more expensive
Jan 18 05:43:10 <Paladine> it's about US$1.40 for a coke from a vending machine in the UK
Jan 18 05:43:17 <thedaniel> HOT DAMN
Jan 18 05:43:22 <thedaniel> that's insane
Jan 18 05:43:25 <Paladine> for 330ml
Jan 18 05:43:26 <Paladine> not a bottle
Jan 18 05:43:28 <Psi> yeah, but UK is expensive
Jan 18 05:43:35 <Paladine> yeah UK is very very expensive
Jan 18 05:43:38 <Psi> they get higher wages to compensate
Jan 18 05:43:43 <Paladine> we wish
Jan 18 05:43:52 <Paladine> we have some of the lowest wages in the developed world
Jan 18 05:43:59 <Paladine> and some of the highest taxes
Jan 18 05:44:01 <thedaniel> i was in Paris a month ago and i think it was like 1 euro a can
Jan 18 05:44:07 <thedaniel> which is a buck 30 US
Jan 18 05:44:11 <ciastek> and only 50c in poland =]
Jan 18 05:44:18 <thedaniel> *shakes fist at poland*
Jan 18 05:44:20 <Psi> lol, lots of IT ppl in nz move to the uk because they get like twice as much money
Jan 18 05:44:23 <thedaniel> ah, irc
Jan 18 05:44:28 * thedaniel shakes fist at poland
Jan 18 05:44:42 <Psi> they normally stay with frends there so as not to have to pay for acomedation
Jan 18 05:44:45 <Paladine> Psi, only in London
Jan 18 05:44:51 <Psi> possibly
Jan 18 05:44:51 <Paladine> the UK is a lot bigger than London
Jan 18 05:44:56 <Paladine> IT rates in the UK are terrible
Jan 18 05:45:01 <Psi> ah
Jan 18 05:45:06 <Paladine> I haveworked in the IT industry for 15 years
Jan 18 05:45:20 <Paladine> I won't work for british companies
Jan 18 05:45:23 <Paladine> they don't pay enough
Jan 18 05:45:26 <Paladine> I work for US companies
Jan 18 05:45:32 <Psi> so why is London so different to the rest of the uk?
Jan 18 05:45:32 <thedaniel> yeah we have some irish guys that bitch about it
Jan 18 05:45:48 <Paladine> London is like a different country compared to the rest of the UK
Jan 18 05:45:52 <thedaniel> seems that unless you can get work writing big java banking apps you are making 20 euro an hour in the UK or something
Jan 18 05:45:57 <Paladine> by law people have to be paid more in london
Jan 18 05:45:59 <thedaniel> so they all telecommute
Jan 18 05:46:00 <thedaniel> to the US
Jan 18 05:46:02 <thedaniel> :)
Jan 18 05:46:15 <Psi> haha
Jan 18 05:46:22 <Paladine> thedaniel, not even that
Jan 18 05:46:44 <Paladine> the average tech job in the UK outside of london will gross you between 20-30k GBP per year
Jan 18 05:46:57 <thedaniel> sweet darwin's ghost
Jan 18 05:47:08 <thedaniel> you can't buy crazy phones on that salary!!
Jan 18 05:47:26 <Paladine> you can't buy a lot of anything on that
Jan 18 05:47:44 <Paladine> specially since we pay ~70-80% tax
Jan 18 05:48:21 <Paladine> if you work in London the law states they have to pay you London Weighting
Jan 18 05:48:35 <Paladine> which basically translates to more money
Jan 18 05:48:39 <Paladine> by law
Jan 18 05:48:43 <Paladine> which is pretty fscked up
Jan 18 05:49:19 <Whiz> 70-80% tax is quite high. howcome so much?
Jan 18 05:49:29 <Paladine> because we get taxed on everything
Jan 18 05:49:33 <Paladine> we even get taxed on tax
Jan 18 05:49:55 <Paladine> (literally)
Jan 18 05:50:22 <thedaniel> Paladine: am i to assume you dont work in london?
Jan 18 05:50:33 <Paladine> when you add all the taxes up and all th "stealth taxes" up, we pay ~70-80% of our gross income on tax
Jan 18 05:50:46 <Paladine> god no I would never work in london again
Jan 18 05:50:49 <Paladine> horrible place
Jan 18 05:50:56 <Paladine> there is only place I hate more than london
Jan 18 05:50:58 <Paladine> and thats paris
Jan 18 05:51:44 <Paladine> last time I worked in London the company I worked for folded owing me 30k
Jan 18 05:51:50 <Paladine> I would never go back
Jan 18 05:52:34 <Psi> lol "<Paladine> we even get taxed on tax"
Jan 18 05:52:34 <Paladine> I would rather chew off my own hand than work in london
Jan 18 05:52:48 <Paladine> Psi, it would be funny if it wasn't true
Jan 18 05:53:01 <Paladine> let me give you an example
Jan 18 05:53:10 <Paladine> we pay ~80% tax on gasoline
Jan 18 05:53:25 <Paladine> then we pay 17.5% sales tax on top of that
Jan 18 05:53:33 <Psi> ah
Jan 18 05:53:41 <Paladine> thats just 1 example
Jan 18 05:53:51 <Psi> i think we have that too
Jan 18 05:53:55 <Paladine> want a burger from macdonalds?
Jan 18 05:54:05 <Paladine> we pay sales tax on the burger at 17.5%
Jan 18 05:54:06 <Psi> eww
Jan 18 05:54:13 <thedaniel> Paladine: why do you have paris so much?
Jan 18 05:54:14 <Paladine> then if we want to eat the burger in macdonalds
Jan 18 05:54:20 <Paladine> we pay another 17.5% sales tax
Jan 18 05:54:23 <Psi> ours is 12.5%
Jan 18 05:54:55 <Paladine> thedaniel, I was working there last summer, horrible place, dirty, over crowded, over priced
Jan 18 05:54:59 <Whiz> ours depends on the product, in normal everyday stuff & services it is 22%
Jan 18 05:55:25 <Paladine> we even pay tv tax
Jan 18 05:55:42 <thedaniel> Paladine: then where in europe would you prefer to live?
Jan 18 05:55:44 <Paladine> if you own a tv
Jan 18 05:55:48 <Paladine> you have to pay an annual tax
Jan 18 05:55:58 <Paladine> thedaniel, canada :)
Jan 18 05:56:06 <thedaniel> Paladine: lolol
Jan 18 05:56:08 <ciastek> europe :D
Jan 18 05:56:23 <Paladine> if I had to live in europe and had a choice where, I would live in Germany
Jan 18 05:56:31 <thedaniel> I'm thinking about my next home
Jan 18 05:56:47 <thedaniel> i am wavering between san francisco and somewher ein europe but i have only been to italy and france
Jan 18 05:56:49 <ciastek> but we talked today about huge customs in canada
Jan 18 05:56:56 <Paladine> butthats only because I am half german and have family there
Jan 18 05:57:06 <Paladine> if I didn't have family in germany, then sweden probably
Jan 18 05:57:32 <Paladine> ciastek, the cost of living in canada comapred to the UK is like 3x cheaper
Jan 18 05:57:40 <Paladine> wages are in line with british wages
Jan 18 05:57:47 <Paladine> so I would be 3x better off
Jan 18 05:58:11 <Paladine> an property/land in canada is much much much cheaper than the UK
Jan 18 05:58:29 <Paladine> we have an 800 sq foot house in the UK (2 bedrooms)
Jan 18 05:58:44 <Paladine> we could buy a 6000 sq foot home in canada with 10 acres for the same money
Jan 18 05:59:42 <Paladine> we will be moving to canada soon as I finish my PhD
Jan 18 05:59:54 <Paladine> and will live like royalty compared to the UK
Jan 18 06:00:01 <ciastek> :]
Jan 18 06:00:09 <Psi> hehe
Jan 18 06:01:24 <Paladine> anyone know if the next gen will be 3G compatable?
Jan 18 06:01:28 <Psi> the bad thing about nz is the internet plans :(
Jan 18 06:01:36 <Paladine> yeah internet in NZsucks
Jan 18 06:01:39 <Paladine> but you have all those sheep
Jan 18 06:01:45 <Psi> hehe
Jan 18 06:01:51 <Paladine> if you rigged them all with wireless APs in their collars
Jan 18 06:01:59 <Paladine> you would have LAN speed internet
Jan 18 06:02:14 <Psi> the internet situation will get much better in the next 5 years tho, since we just unbundled our local loop.. finally
Jan 18 06:02:28 <Paladine> hopeit goes better for you guys than it did for us
Jan 18 06:02:29 * CM likes it here in Sweden
Jan 18 06:02:41 <CM> But the taxes are really high..
Jan 18 06:02:47 <Paladine> the LLU in the UK has been a joke from day 1
Jan 18 06:02:54 <Psi> hehe
Jan 18 06:02:56 <Paladine> CM, but you are a welfare state
Jan 18 06:03:03 <Paladine> you have excellent medical and education system
Jan 18 06:03:09 <CM> For sure
Jan 18 06:03:12 <Paladine> you have high unemployment benefits
Jan 18 06:03:21 <Paladine> something like 70% your previous salary iirc?
Jan 18 06:03:23 <CM> Too high in my oppinion
Jan 18 06:03:31 <CM> 80% first year
Jan 18 06:03:35 <Paladine> yeah thats high
Jan 18 06:03:37 <CM> Then slowly lowering
Jan 18 06:03:57 <Paladine> when Ilost my last job I went from $70k USD per year to $50 USD per week
Jan 18 06:04:00 <Paladine> to support my family
Jan 18 06:04:28 <CM> I know people who have no job, but still a nice apartment, a car and goes on vacation
Jan 18 06:04:32 <thedaniel> Psi: i hear that the undersea link between nz/aus and the USA is made out of sheep's guts
Jan 18 06:04:53 <CM> Then work for 6 months somewhere, then get laid off and just hang around for a year again
Jan 18 06:04:55 <Paladine> you know what the definition of a new zealander is right?
Jan 18 06:04:58 <CM> THat's just not right
Jan 18 06:05:09 <CM> Has whool?
Jan 18 06:05:13 <Paladine> naah
Jan 18 06:05:18 <Paladine> intelligent australian ;)
Jan 18 06:05:21 <CM> Hehe
Jan 18 06:05:24 * Paladine ducks
Jan 18 06:05:24 <Psi> thedaniel, yes, sheep's guts are the new fiber optic cable
Jan 18 06:06:04 <Paladine> CM, you also have the pirate bay, which is worth liing in sweden for alone, even if it is just to laugh at their legal insults :)
Jan 18 06:06:10 <CM> Hehe
Jan 18 06:06:26 <Psi> honestly, we do have alot of sheep, but ya really wouldn't notice, they are all our in the country, ya dont see them much
Jan 18 06:06:27 <CM> Yea, to be honest I actually voted for the pirate party
Jan 18 06:06:40 <Paladine> :)
Jan 18 06:06:45 <Psi> its not like they are running all over the roads in the city :P
Jan 18 06:06:52 <CM> Mostly because I'm dead against the previous government
Jan 18 06:07:16 <Psi> our=out
Jan 18 06:07:16 <Paladine> Psi, I remember when I was in high school (just about) and back then according to our geography text books, there were 1000 head of sheep for every person in Nz
Jan 18 06:07:46 <CM> I don't want wiretaps, logs of all calls, surveilance everywhere
Jan 18 06:07:46 <Paladine> CM, you should get out of the EU then :)
Jan 18 06:07:50 <Paladine> cos data retention laws are EU wide
Jan 18 06:07:50 <CM> Heh, afraid so
Jan 18 06:07:56 <CM> But surely not to the US
Jan 18 06:08:19 <Paladine> didn't you know the US own the world?
Jan 18 06:08:20 <CM> From the pot into the fire, or what's that saying?
Jan 18 06:08:20 <CM> Hehe
Jan 18 06:08:29 <Paladine> or at least they think they do
Jan 18 06:08:38 <Paladine> they tried to sue me for $150M USD
Jan 18 06:08:43 <Paladine> and I am a british citizen
Jan 18 06:08:48 <CM> I've met many really nice americans, but they seem to be a minority
Jan 18 06:08:57 <Paladine> most of my friends are americans
Jan 18 06:09:06 <Psi> Paladine, its no were near that today, its about 13 sheep per person
Jan 18 06:09:06 <Paladine> doesn't make their government suck any less though ;)
Jan 18 06:09:17 <Psi> i dont know if it ever was 1000:1
Jan 18 06:09:22 <CM> Paladine: True
Jan 18 06:09:25 <Paladine> Psi, this was back in 1986
Jan 18 06:09:38 <CM> Can't believe they voted him back. It's like a bad joke
Jan 18 06:09:40 <Psi> yeah, i dunno about back then
Jan 18 06:11:05 <CM> Hmm.. Maybe we're hijacking the channel now.
Jan 18 06:11:22 <CM> I mean, this is "OpenMoko Developer Lounge" :)
Jan 18 06:11:41 <Paladine> dunno about that no-one else seems to be awake
Jan 18 06:12:01 <Psi> ok, does anyone know if the neo has a loud enough speaker for handsfree?
Jan 18 06:12:10 <Paladine> if someone chats in a channel and there is no-one awake, does it make a sound?
Jan 18 06:12:28 <Psi> or a GPS navigation voice etc.
Jan 18 06:12:32 <Paladine> Psi, it has duel 12mW speakers iirc
Jan 18 06:12:50 <Psi> duel as in stereo?
Jan 18 06:12:55 <CM> Psi: That would be cool :-)
Jan 18 06:13:03 <Paladine> actually my mistake
Jan 18 06:13:06 <Paladine> 12mW battery
Jan 18 06:13:09 <Paladine> 1W speakers
Jan 18 06:13:11 <Psi> hehe
Jan 18 06:13:18 <Paladine> and yes stereo
Jan 18 06:13:30 <Paladine> "It also has two 1W stereo speakers so you can repurpose it to an MP3 player or anything else you would like."
Jan 18 06:13:40 <Psi> nice
Jan 18 06:14:20 <CM> Scott Adams (dilbert blog) wrote something really funny about his gps..
Jan 18 06:14:32 <Psi> you can, select a destination, put it in your pocket, and it can direct you to the location using a voice synthesizer :P
Jan 18 06:14:48 <CM> It's been my best car yet, thanks to my low standards. My only complaint is that the navigation unit is stuck on "shout." It's normally a soothing female voice. But when that voice is stuck in banshee mode, you don't know if you should turn left or divorce it and give it your house. I'll be happy if they can just dial it back to "nagging harpy" mode.
Jan 18 06:15:06 <Paladine> hehehe
Jan 18 06:15:13 <Psi> hehe, your phone says "Ive detected someone else with a neo, they are 15 meters to your left
Jan 18 06:15:20 <Paladine> I have to buy the neo
Jan 18 06:15:21 <CM> It can't be easy to get a voice that you won't be tired of
Jan 18 06:15:24 <CM> :)
Jan 18 06:15:33 <Paladine> not just because all sony, microsoft and apple products are banned from my house
Jan 18 06:15:43 <Paladine> not just because I run all my systems on linux
Jan 18 06:15:48 <CM> Paladine: Heh, same here
Jan 18 06:16:05 <Paladine> not just because I constantly fight in the political arena for more open source solutions in the public sector
Jan 18 06:16:07 <CM> Do have a SE k750 phone though, but it's dying
Jan 18 06:16:15 <Paladine> but also because I was born in 1973
Jan 18 06:16:21 <Paladine> so the name is designed with me in mind :)
Jan 18 06:16:27 <CM> Hehe
Jan 18 06:16:39 * CM waits for the Neo1979
Jan 18 06:18:06 <Paladine> and of course, I want to gloat at all the (HonestIAmNotStealingCisco'sTrademark)Phone users
Jan 18 06:20:17 <Paladine> they should change the name of the iPhone to iOwnAllYourBasesPhone
Jan 18 06:21:04 <CM> It is shiny, but that's all
Jan 18 06:21:43 <Paladine> the sun is shiney, but would you put it in your breast poocket?
Jan 18 06:21:48 <Paladine> pocket
Jan 18 06:22:12 <CM> Nope, and I sure as hell can't install anything on it ;)
Jan 18 06:22:20 <Psi> hehe, im sure ppl will write apps for the neo, that do everything the iphone can do and more
Jan 18 06:22:36 <Paladine> I wonder ifit will run beryl ;)
Jan 18 06:22:40 <ciastek> :D
Jan 18 06:22:41 <CM> One thing that I do like though is that Apple TV thing
Jan 18 06:22:50 <Paladine> oh god the apple tv is aweful
Jan 18 06:22:52 <CM> it would be great for mythtv
Jan 18 06:22:59 <Paladine> not only are they gonna drm all your itunes music
Jan 18 06:23:06 <Paladine> but they are gonna drm everything you watch too
Jan 18 06:23:17 <Paladine> it wouldn't work with mythtv
Jan 18 06:23:22 <Paladine> it has crappy hardware
Jan 18 06:23:33 <Paladine> <- running mythtv and watching it as we speak
Jan 18 06:23:39 <CM> 1ghz pentium-m
Jan 18 06:23:41 <CM> Not enough?
Jan 18 06:23:49 <CM> Also a gforce7600go
Jan 18 06:23:50 <Paladine> it is clocked down to 350MHz fsb
Jan 18 06:23:59 <Paladine> and the graphics is only 64MB
Jan 18 06:24:12 <Paladine> and itis closed source
Jan 18 06:24:20 <CM> Yes, but that's just the fsb isn't it? or is the cpu running that speed to?
Jan 18 06:24:41 <Paladine> not sure what speed the CPU is actually running at
Jan 18 06:24:47 <Paladine> but it has been underclocked
Jan 18 06:25:07 <CM> I think it's 1ghz, and that's surely better than a 1ghz epia
Jan 18 06:25:15 <Paladine> it doesn't even do 1080i/p
Jan 18 06:25:32 <CM> True, but I only have a plasma anyway :)
Jan 18 06:25:34 <CM> And it
Jan 18 06:25:39 <CM> 's dirt cheap
Jan 18 06:25:47 <Paladine> I wouldn't say it is cheap
Jan 18 06:25:51 <Paladine> Ibuilt my htpc cheaper
Jan 18 06:25:59 <Paladine> and it has better kit in it
Jan 18 06:26:14 <CM> < 300$?
Jan 18 06:26:28 <Paladine> I am in the UK, the Apple TV is not < $300 in the UK
Jan 18 06:26:43 <CM> True, then it's EUR
Jan 18 06:26:46 <CM> But still
Jan 18 06:26:49 <Paladine> no
Jan 18 06:26:52 <Paladine> it is GBP
Jan 18 06:27:01 <Paladine> andit will be about 2x as expensive as it is in the US
Jan 18 06:27:01 <CM> Heh, bummer
Jan 18 06:27:29 <Paladine> and it is 100% not compatable with mythtv from what I have heard the mythtv devs saying
Jan 18 06:27:39 <CM> That I can imagine
Jan 18 06:27:59 <CM> But I'd be surprised if they didn't get it working on it later on
Jan 18 06:28:56 <Paladine> non of the mythtv people I know (and I know a lot, been hanging in their channel on freenode for the better part of a year) wouldn't even be remotely interested in supporting Apple by buying their crap to try and get mythtv running on it
Jan 18 06:30:51 <CM> That's true, unfortunally. I like the design on most apple things, but the control obsession sucks
Jan 18 06:30:56 <CM> Just like sony
Jan 18 06:31:29 * CM secretly wants a tiny Vaio
Jan 18 06:33:39 <Paladine> did I mention -all- sony, apple and microsoft products are -banned- from my house?
Jan 18 06:34:00 <CM> Yes, same here
Jan 18 06:34:03 * Psi has quite a few sony devices
Jan 18 06:34:09 <Paladine> I made my friend leave his vistafied vaio in his car last week when he visited
Jan 18 06:34:21 <CM> Hehe
Jan 18 06:34:36 <Psi> got them from the a shop that sells stuff that has been repossessed
Jan 18 06:35:00 <Psi> cheap stuff ftw
Jan 18 06:35:15 <Paladine> Iwouldn't accept a sony product if someone gave it to me for free
Jan 18 06:35:20 <Psi> hehe
Jan 18 06:35:35 <Paladine> I'd tell them to sell it and give the money to charity
Jan 18 06:35:38 <CM> Not even a nice 50" Bravia?
Jan 18 06:35:43 <Psi> this is tv/vcr/hi-fi unit
Jan 18 06:35:47 <Paladine> nope not even a 50" bravia
Jan 18 06:36:03 <Paladine> I live my life based on principles
Jan 18 06:36:07 * CM is happy with his Samsung plasma
Jan 18 06:36:18 <Paladine> and I don't bend my principles for nothing
Jan 18 06:36:47 <CM> Heh, same reason I don't have a car and buy ecological stuff ;)
Jan 18 06:37:40 <Paladine> I have a car but I have no choice on that
Jan 18 06:38:00 <Paladine> and Ibought it used
Jan 18 06:38:16 <Psi> i would never buy a brand new car
Jan 18 06:38:33 <Psi> its like twice the price as a used one thats 1 month old
Jan 18 06:38:44 * CM is consulting for Volvo (Ford owned)
Jan 18 06:39:02 <CM> Ford sucks
Jan 18 06:39:22 <CM> And don't get me started on this SOx crap.. *sigh*
Jan 18 06:39:26 <Paladine> well Ihave an adult dependent who needs to be transported by car
Jan 18 06:39:29 <Paladine> so I have to have a car
Jan 18 06:39:43 <CM> I live alone, in the city
Jan 18 06:39:49 <Psi> nz has really cheap cars, cos we get all the jap imports, you can get an average car that looks fine, and will last for atleast 5 years for under US$700 here
Jan 18 06:39:58 <CM> So I can make that choice.
Jan 18 06:40:18 <Psi> but you would be better to spend abit more than that :P
Jan 18 06:40:51 <CM> All I know about cars in nz is my friends renting from "Rent a wreck"
Jan 18 06:41:03 <Psi> haha
Jan 18 06:41:08 <CM> Man, that was the worst picece of crap on 2 wheels I've ever seen
Jan 18 06:41:35 <Psi> did it break down on him? or just look bad?
Jan 18 06:41:44 <CM> You had to keep the feet on the pedals because the floor was partly missing
Jan 18 06:41:56 <CM> But it did run..
Jan 18 06:41:59 <Psi> that sounds pretty illegal
Jan 18 06:42:22 <CM> They had some piece of wood in there first, but it fell out
Jan 18 06:42:38 <CM> They were a bit low on cars when they got there
Jan 18 06:43:03 <Psi> its actually cheaper if your coming to nz, to not use a rental company at all, just goto an auction and pay the money you would have paid to the rental company
Jan 18 06:43:44 <Psi> well.. , i mean, you get a better car, and can put it back in the auction when your ready to leave
Jan 18 06:44:01 <CM> :-)
Jan 18 06:44:12 <CM> I'd like to go there some day
Jan 18 06:45:05 <Psi> :) not that im recommending doing that car thing, just a good example of how cheap cars are here
Jan 18 06:45:17 * CM puts on the headphones and starts doing some work
Jan 18 06:49:43 <CM> Wonder what it would take to put mono on the moko: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jan-17.html
Jan 18 06:50:21 <Tv> eww mono fanboys
Jan 18 06:50:34 <CM> Hehe
Jan 18 06:50:40 <Tv> you can't cram all the frameworks in the world in an *embedded* device
Jan 18 06:51:12 <CM> I know, and I really wonder why they would run mono on a mp3-player
Jan 18 06:51:20 <Tv> and of all the architectures, why would you go with one that microsoft controls?
Jan 18 06:51:42 <Tv> CM: because Novell is paying for it and they have ulterior motives.
Jan 18 06:53:18 <CM> I'm not convinced of that yet, but it sure was a really stupid thing that patent M$ deal
Jan 18 06:53:31 <Tv> Let's just say that Novell is not an open source company.
Jan 18 06:53:37 <Tv> Sure, they might dabble with Linux now.
Jan 18 06:54:25 <CM> Agreed
Jan 18 06:54:30 <benJIman> Novell are one of the few linux companies that respects the GPL and community
Jan 18 06:54:39 <benJIman> while others like canonical just ignore it
Jan 18 06:55:44 <CM> What about Fluendo and their codec shop?
Jan 18 06:56:09 <ciastek> benJIman, what about this novell/canonical?
Jan 18 06:56:34 <benJIman> What about what?
Jan 18 06:59:11 <ciastek> about that novell respects gpl, and canonical ignores it
Jan 18 06:59:49 <Paladine> eh?
Jan 18 06:59:56 <Paladine> canonical doesn't ignore gpl lol
Jan 18 07:00:28 <Paladine> and novell are a bunch of asshats imo
Jan 18 07:00:49 <benJIman> Paladine: they are violating GPL yes
Jan 18 07:01:00 <Paladine> care to explain how?
Jan 18 07:01:16 <benJIman> Distributing packages in violation of GPL, that link against GPLed libraries but arn't GPL
Jan 18 07:01:30 <Paladine> like what?
Jan 18 07:01:39 <benJIman> Nvidia drivers, madwifi etc
Jan 18 07:01:54 <Paladine> which nvidia drivers?
Jan 18 07:02:02 <Paladine> the proprietry ones?
Jan 18 07:02:07 <benJIman> Indeed
Jan 18 07:02:17 <Paladine> howis that canonical breaking gpl?
Jan 18 07:02:24 <Paladine> the nvidia drivers are not gpl
Jan 18 07:02:25 <benJIman> They are distributing them
Jan 18 07:02:29 <benJIman> but Linux is
Jan 18 07:02:32 <Paladine> thats doesn't matter a crap
Jan 18 07:02:34 <benJIman> nvidia shim links to linux
Jan 18 07:02:36 <benJIman> yes it does
Jan 18 07:02:44 <benJIman> Link to GPL you have to abide by GPL
Jan 18 07:02:45 <buz> only installing them by default would break the gpl
Jan 18 07:02:50 <Paladine> GPL does not say you cannot distribute properietry drivers
Jan 18 07:02:53 <benJIman> buz: no, distribution is enough
Jan 18 07:02:55 <buz> the user itself breaking it is none of canonicals business 
Jan 18 07:03:01 <benJIman> Paladine: it does if they link against GPLed libraries
Jan 18 07:03:07 <buz> like what library
Jan 18 07:03:09 <benJIman> buz: this is a distribution issue
Jan 18 07:03:18 <benJIman> the shim links against GPLed kernel libs
Jan 18 07:03:21 <Paladine> the proprietry drivers use nvidia's libraries you fool
Jan 18 07:03:35 <benJIman> Paladine: no, go read the source to the shim, the source is available but it is not GPL
Jan 18 07:03:37 <buz> the shim is gpld
Jan 18 07:03:40 <cbpage> the nvidia driver is covered by kernel module exception (for now?)
Jan 18 07:03:41 <benJIman> no it is not
Jan 18 07:03:49 <benJIman> buz: go read the licence on it, it is nvidia proprietary
Jan 18 07:03:50 <cbpage> hence the concept of "tainted" kernels
Jan 18 07:04:10 <buz> even torvalds himself doesnt give a crap
Jan 18 07:04:13 <benJIman> cbpage: no, loading itself would not be a problem necessarily (that is a grey area) but the shim links against GPLed libraries
Jan 18 07:04:21 <Paladine> benjamin, even if under your strange conception of the rules, tit is in breach of gpl
Jan 18 07:04:25 <Paladine> they don't ship it
Jan 18 07:04:31 <benJIman> buz: Torvalds is not the only copyright holder, many of htem do
Jan 18 07:04:46 <benJIman> Paladine: No, it would be equivalent to any other GPL violation
Jan 18 07:04:53 <Paladine> Nvidia is -not- the default drivers for ubuntu
Jan 18 07:04:55 <benJIman> they are linking against GPLed libraries, GPL does not allow this
Jan 18 07:04:57 <benJIman> lgpl would
Jan 18 07:05:06 <buz> the kernel is not a library
Jan 18 07:05:07 <Paladine> vesa are default drivers for ubuntu
Jan 18 07:05:08 <benJIman> Paladine: but they distribute them, and by distributing them they violate GPL
Jan 18 07:05:16 <Paladine> no they don't distribute them
Jan 18 07:05:19 <benJIman> buz: kernel includes libraries which the nvidia shim links to
Jan 18 07:05:23 <Paladine> they are available in the non free repos
Jan 18 07:05:24 <benJIman> Paladine: they do
Jan 18 07:05:28 <benJIman> which is distribution
Jan 18 07:05:32 <Paladine> no it isn't
Jan 18 07:05:34 <benJIman> Yes it is
Jan 18 07:05:37 <Paladine> no it isn't
Jan 18 07:05:40 <Paladine> it is availablity
Jan 18 07:05:40 <benJIman> By any legal interpretation
Jan 18 07:05:44 <Paladine> no it is not
Jan 18 07:05:49 <buz> then why dont novell and canonical get sued for it
Jan 18 07:05:58 <buz> (novell does the same)
Jan 18 07:06:06 <cbpage> nobody's bothered enough aparently
Jan 18 07:06:07 <benJIman> If I make available my extensive film collection that is distribution and I could be sued accordingly
Jan 18 07:06:12 <cbpage> it dosen't touch harold's code iirc ;0
Jan 18 07:06:13 <cbpage> ;)
Jan 18 07:06:13 <Paladine> yes suse also have the nvidia drivers in their package repos
Jan 18 07:06:14 <benJIman> buz: Novell does /not/ do the same
Jan 18 07:06:24 <benJIman> Novell does not distribute anything GPL violating or patent violating
Jan 18 07:06:28 <Tv> benJIman: the whole whether kernel api is exempt discussion is still pretty much open; you can't pick one side and assume you are correct
Jan 18 07:06:31 <Paladine> benJIman, stop talking arse, you look stupid when you do
Jan 18 07:06:33 <buz> ROTFL
Jan 18 07:06:38 <benJIman> Paladine: SUSE most definately do not and never had distributed nvidia drivers
Jan 18 07:06:44 <buz> pretty much all software out there is in violation of patents
Jan 18 07:06:48 <buz> (not that i care one bit)
Jan 18 07:06:58 <benJIman> Paladine: NVIDIA host a repository for SUSE with drivers for suse, that is not Novell distributing anything
Jan 18 07:07:42 <benJIman> Tv: I am not referring to loading non-gpl modules, that is a legal grey area, linking against GPLed libraries is not a grey area, it has been proven in court to be in violation
Jan 18 07:07:46 <Paladine> dude you have a pretty twisted and warped view of reality
Jan 18 07:08:39 <Tv> benJIman: uh, what exectly are the non-gpl and gpl components you speak of, then?
Jan 18 07:08:47 <Paladine> let me just point something out for you
Jan 18 07:08:47 <Paladine> if I have suse
Jan 18 07:08:57 <Paladine> and I contact suse support and ask them where to get nvidia drivers
Jan 18 07:08:57 <Paladine> they will tell me
Jan 18 07:09:02 <benJIman> Tv: the Nvidia shim, the source is available, but not GPLed, or gpl compatable, or even open source by any defintion
Jan 18 07:09:09 <Paladine> and that sir, is absolutely no different to linking directly to them
Jan 18 07:09:11 <Tv> benJIman: so what's the gpl component?
Jan 18 07:09:24 <benJIman> Paladine: linking is not violation of anything
Jan 18 07:09:24 <benJIman> Paladine: but they are not distributing ,nvidia are
Jan 18 07:09:30 <Paladine> linking sir, in the eyes of the law -is- 
Jan 18 07:09:49 <benJIman> google link to a vast amount of material that is illegal to distribute, what's your point
Jan 18 07:09:55 <Tv> Paladine: not if the end user does the linking
Jan 18 07:10:06 <Paladine> speaking as someone who got sued $150 million USD for "LINKING" people sharing movies, I happen to know this for a fact
Jan 18 07:10:23 <Tv> oh crap, now you're using "linking" to mean both libraries and web links
Jan 18 07:10:26 <Tv> this discussion is going nowhere
Jan 18 07:10:30 <Psi> ive not been paying much attention to the convo, but are you both talking about linking in the same terms?  as in 'ln -s'  or 'url linking'?
Jan 18 07:10:45 <Tv> Psi: whoa, third meaning for linking
Jan 18 07:10:46 * Tv bails out
Jan 18 07:10:52 <Psi> hehe
Jan 18 07:10:52 <benJIman> Paladine: that is an entirely different situation
Jan 18 07:10:55 <Paladine> there is only one definition for link
Jan 18 07:11:01 <Paladine> no it isn't
Jan 18 07:11:08 <benJIman> Paladine: linking to people sharing movies would be abetting copyright infringement
Jan 18 07:11:21 <Paladine> I never said I linked to people sharing movies
Jan 18 07:11:23 <benJIman> Paladine: users installing nvidia drivers is not copyright infringement, and novell linking does not aid nvidia's copyright infringement
Jan 18 07:11:26 <Paladine> I said I linked people sharing movies
Jan 18 07:11:41 <benJIman> the point holds
Jan 18 07:11:51 <benJIman> Installing nvidia drivers is not in violation of anything
Jan 18 07:11:56 <benJIman> GPL only restricts distribution
Jan 18 07:11:57 <Paladine> ben, you sir are a biggoted ass and exactly the reason I would never install novell
Jan 18 07:12:35 <Psi> keep your anger towards benJIman pls as im also a ben :P
Jan 18 07:12:47 <Paladine> canonical has done more to get linux into the mainstream in the last 2 years than novell has done in the last 15 years
Jan 18 07:13:08 <Paladine> sorry Psi :)
Jan 18 07:13:22 <Psi> :)
Jan 18 07:13:24 <benJIman> That is obviously entirely down to your preconceptions, as Novell employ far more developers on Free software, have consistently freed a great deal of software in the past few years, contribute to nearly every major free software project, while canonical ride roughshod over the community, hardly contributing anything back and violating GPL wherever it suits them
Jan 18 07:13:40 <Paladine> and canonical didn't go and sign a deal with Billy Boy and piss off 99% of the entire linux community
Jan 18 07:14:03 <benJIman> A deal which is 100% in compliance with the GPL, if you have an irrational hatred of microsoft that's your problem.
Jan 18 07:14:10 <Psi> i must be in the 1% i dont know about this deal with billy boy
Jan 18 07:14:17 * benJIman -> work
Jan 18 07:14:24 <Paladine> I couldn't give a flying roasarie if it complies with GPL
Jan 18 07:14:25 <Paladine> it was wrong
Jan 18 07:14:43 <benJIman> wrong for what reason, you don't like microsoft?
Jan 18 07:14:58 <Paladine> I absolutely abhore microsoft to the very fibre of my being
Jan 18 07:15:11 <Paladine> as do 99% of the people who decide to use linux
Jan 18 07:15:11 <Psi> ah, billy boy = ms hehe, should have spotted that
Jan 18 07:15:12 <benJIman> Well I feel sorry for you]
Jan 18 07:15:21 <Paladine> you can feel sorry for me as much as you lke
Jan 18 07:15:22 <benJIman> microsoft probably contribute more to free software than canonical
Jan 18 07:15:33 <benJIman> they produce quite a bit from their research labs now
Jan 18 07:15:43 <Paladine> and that makes them not evil?
Jan 18 07:15:49 <Tv> and how much of that ends up on my laptop...
Jan 18 07:16:00 <benJIman> They are not as evil as you think
Jan 18 07:16:07 <Paladine> I have been unix/linux for nigh on 20 years
Jan 18 07:16:23 <Paladine> I have made most of my money working with MS products
Jan 18 07:16:27 <benJIman> anyway I really have to go to work
Jan 18 07:16:28 <Paladine> so I am not some noob
Jan 18 07:16:29 <benJIman> *gone*
Jan 18 07:17:18 <Paladine> ahh come in talking crap without sibstantiation, but then as soon as someone starts talking about novell's inpropriteries you conveniently have to go to work
Jan 18 07:17:36 <Tv> well that would suck as a method of procrastination
Jan 18 07:18:01 <Paladine> wassat tv?
Jan 18 07:18:12 <Tv> losing an argument as procrastination ;)
Jan 18 07:20:11 <Paladine> personally I could care less if canonical are upsetting some gpl zealots by linking to nvidia so people can actually use linux with proprietry stable drivers (oh did I forget more fully featured) or linking to some proprietry wifi drivers so people can use their networks
Jan 18 07:20:26 <Tv> personally I'm not buying nvidia, period
Jan 18 07:20:41 <Paladine> I would rather buy nvidia than ati
Jan 18 07:20:51 <Paladine> at least nvidia make a genuine effort to support the linux community
Jan 18 07:20:52 <Tv> I'm perfectly happy with my open source-friendly intel graphics chip.
Jan 18 07:21:06 <Paladine> I won't buy anything intel unfortunately
Jan 18 07:21:12 <Tv> Paladine: by screwing the community over?
Jan 18 07:21:17 <Tv> intel is doing decent work with linux drivers
Jan 18 07:21:23 <Tv> they actually develop them in house *gasp*
Jan 18 07:21:32 <Tv> as *open source* and *properly integrated*
Jan 18 07:21:34 <Tv> *gasp*
Jan 18 07:21:34 <Paladine> I refuse to support intel period because of their antitrust activities
Jan 18 07:21:48 <ciastek> its actually so hard to find computer which you can buy Paladine :]
Jan 18 07:21:54 <Tv> well yes with that line of reasoning you can't buy from any big company ever
Jan 18 07:22:03 <Paladine> I can
Jan 18 07:22:10 <Paladine> I just have to choose the lesser of evils
Jan 18 07:22:17 <Tv> and you pick nvidia?
Jan 18 07:22:20 <Tv> oh man, priorities
Jan 18 07:22:23 <Paladine> so I buy AMD and Nvidia
Jan 18 07:22:37 <Paladine> well I refuse to support ATI
Jan 18 07:22:42 <Paladine> and I refuse to support intel
Jan 18 07:22:47 <Paladine> so I have no other choise really
Jan 18 07:22:53 <cbpage> to make things even more confusing amd owns ati now
Jan 18 07:23:08 <Paladine> yes AMD do, but I still wouldn't buy ATI
Jan 18 07:23:17 <Psi> me neither
Jan 18 07:23:22 <Paladine> not until there is a real effort to support linux
Jan 18 07:23:26 <Psi> i bought an ati card once, never again
Jan 18 07:23:33 <cbpage> yeah - i work on a laptop saddled with an x1300 chip
Jan 18 07:23:35 <Psi> and i only bought it for 2D!
Jan 18 07:23:44 <Psi> couldnt even do that right
Jan 18 07:24:01 <cbpage> if i could hack out the chip and magically make the 945mp into an mg i would ;)
Jan 18 07:24:10 <Psi> it was a 9200se tho, so not exactly a good card :P
Jan 18 07:24:21 <cbpage> 9200se at least has free linux drivers
Jan 18 07:24:38 <cbpage> although 9200se = crippled lower/mid end card
Jan 18 07:24:39 <Psi> yeah, it ended up in my linux box
Jan 18 07:24:49 <Paladine> I don't have issues with proprietry software
Jan 18 07:25:12 <Paladine> I don't see why people can't make money out of software if they want to
Jan 18 07:25:16 <cbpage> i do with the fglrx driverset. :P
Jan 18 07:25:20 <Tv> make money != proprietary
Jan 18 07:25:26 <Paladine> yes I know
Jan 18 07:25:30 <Paladine> and I never said it was
Jan 18 07:25:36 <Paladine> and I never finished either
Jan 18 07:25:49 <Tv> I'm happy for people to make money but steer away from proprietary if that is at all possible.
Jan 18 07:25:56 <Paladine> I don;t see a problem with software being closed source either
Jan 18 07:26:02 <Tv> I especially hate mixing open and proprietary, that always leads to problems.
Jan 18 07:26:10 <Paladine> so long as the consumer has a choice
Jan 18 07:26:12 <Tv> The open side evolves and the proprietary side gets stuck.
Jan 18 07:26:24 <Paladine> if I want to use linux, then I will buy hardware I know is supported
Jan 18 07:26:36 <Paladine> whether that is with open or proprietry drivers, I don't mind
Jan 18 07:26:52 <Paladine> solongas it is supported
Jan 18 07:26:54 <sannes> I hate it when I have to wait to upgrade my kernel because of some stupid binary blob .. "Supports linux" .. yeah, right..
Jan 18 07:26:56 <Tv> proprietary drivers means that if something doesn't work, you can't figure out the reason
Jan 18 07:26:58 <Tv> and can't fix it
Jan 18 07:27:02 <Tv> hence, tainted kernels
Jan 18 07:27:05 <Tv> that's horrible
Jan 18 07:27:20 <Paladine> tv, but the world will never be open
Jan 18 07:27:26 <Paladine> that is not in the nature of humans
Jan 18 07:27:33 <Paladine> there will always be a mix
Jan 18 07:27:41 <Tv> the subset of the world I live in has been getting increasingly open
Jan 18 07:27:41 <Paladine> and there is nothing anyone can do to change that
Jan 18 07:28:03 <Tv> so I see no reason why it couldn't become fully open
Jan 18 07:28:08 <Paladine> well what about your chipset drivers for your motherboard?
Jan 18 07:28:22 <Tv> It's intel all the way
Jan 18 07:28:24 <sannes> yeah, I don't touch propritary kernel code at all these days ..
Jan 18 07:28:26 <Tv> thinkpad x60s
Jan 18 07:28:30 <Paladine> and then what about your BIOS (yes I know there is a linux bios in dev but it still won't kill the closed bios)
Jan 18 07:28:45 <ciastek> cant wait for open computer
Jan 18 07:28:54 <sannes> I hate my BIOS :)
Jan 18 07:28:54 <Tv> I'm willing to accept proprietary BIOS as it pretty much just hands over control to open things
Jan 18 07:28:58 <Paladine> but willit ever happen?
Jan 18 07:29:05 <Paladine> will the legislators let it ?
Jan 18 07:29:07 <Paladine> no
Jan 18 07:29:18 <Tv> not like anyone would jump to BIOS for output much these days
Jan 18 07:29:20 <Paladine> everything will be required by law to have "trusted" computing
Jan 18 07:29:40 <Tv> pffgt
Jan 18 07:29:49 <Paladine> if you want to change it, sitting here whining about an nvidia driver isn't going to make a single bit of difference
Jan 18 07:29:53 <Paladine> get politically active
Jan 18 07:29:53 <Tv> I do not believe that scenario.
Jan 18 07:29:57 <Paladine> that is th eonly way to change it
Jan 18 07:29:59 <ciastek> the more trusted computing will be, the more ppl would like to get alternative imo
Jan 18 07:30:13 <Paladine> ciastek, it doesn't matter what people would like
Jan 18 07:30:27 <Paladine> with the content providers paying congress to write their own laws
Jan 18 07:30:30 <Paladine> you have no choice
Jan 18 07:30:50 <Paladine> the only way to move towards a truly open and free system
Jan 18 07:30:53 <Paladine> is to get political
Jan 18 07:31:05 <Paladine> no amount of whining about the GPL is going to make any difference
Jan 18 07:31:25 <ciastek> so we all need to move to sealand ;)
Jan 18 07:31:37 <Tv> I think the best way to get things open is to demonstrate to more and more people that open = good
Jan 18 07:31:57 <Paladine> Tv, you don't seem to get the point, it doesn't matter a damn what you show you the people
Jan 18 07:31:59 <Tv> when you have e.g. all the schools using open software
Jan 18 07:32:08 <Paladine> if you don't tell the politicians or vote pro-actively
Jan 18 07:32:13 <Tv> the government can't screw them as easily
Jan 18 07:32:13 <Paladine> it won't make any difference
Jan 18 07:32:27 <Paladine> you need to read my blog :p
Jan 18 07:32:33 <Paladine> I deal with this stuff every day of my life
Jan 18 07:32:37 <Tv> sad
Jan 18 07:32:40 <Paladine> from a political arena
Jan 18 07:32:44 <ciastek> Paladine, but politicans takes care about what ppl do. i mean - about their votes
Jan 18 07:32:52 <Paladine> incorrect
Jan 18 07:33:09 <Paladine> a politician is interested in his voters but only to the point of having just enough to win
Jan 18 07:33:23 <Paladine> and only for like 3 months of every 4 years
Jan 18 07:33:36 <Paladine> the rest of the time they are interested in lobbies
Jan 18 07:33:43 <Paladine> thats where they get their money
Jan 18 07:33:49 <Tv> ... in the US
Jan 18 07:33:49 <Paladine> thats whats funds their campaigns
Jan 18 07:33:54 <Paladine> not just in the US
Jan 18 07:34:06 <Paladine> although the US is the most obvious example
Jan 18 07:34:09 <Tv> you'd be amazed to see how many things are *not* like the US
Jan 18 07:34:21 <Paladine> I am not american
Jan 18 07:34:26 <Paladine> and I don't live in the US
Jan 18 07:34:31 <Paladine> I live in the real world
Jan 18 07:34:42 <Paladine> and there is as much lobbying in Europe as there is anywhere else in the world
Jan 18 07:34:52 <sannes> Paladine: are you a TROLL ? :D
Jan 18 07:34:53 <cying> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo&eurl=
Jan 18 07:35:04 <Tv> *yaawn*
Jan 18 07:35:11 <Tv> so has anyone done anything interesting with openembedded?
Jan 18 07:35:24 <Paladine> sannes, a troll? no not at all, I am not the one who came in shouting about canonical being all evil and novelle being the next mesiah
Jan 18 07:35:31 <Tv> I'm still fighting with qemu / the filesystem built by gpe-image
Jan 18 07:35:37 <Tv> qemuarm makes my qemu crash
Jan 18 07:35:44 <Tv> qemux86 works but the fs seems to not boot
Jan 18 07:35:58 <Paladine> sannes, I dedicate my life to fighting for consumer rights and pushing open solutions
Jan 18 07:36:01 <Paladine> but I am also a realist
Jan 18 07:36:28 <Tv> or is this channel for just talking shit about things that are not embedded linux phones?
Jan 18 07:36:36 <Paladine> and I am also very passionate about my work
Jan 18 07:37:47 <sannes> Paladine: well, you seem to be in a trolling mood, disregarding others arguments with "no you just don't know what is going on" .. which seems a little bit sad, anyways .. I didn't read the canoical vs novell debate to carefully, ..
Jan 18 07:38:35 <Paladine> I haven't disregarded any arguments
Jan 18 07:38:40 <Paladine> Ihaven't heard one
Jan 18 07:38:47 <Paladine> all I have seen is fantasy
Jan 18 07:38:56 <Tv> well yes that goes both ways
Jan 18 07:39:03 <Tv> I hereby label what Paladine says as "fantasy"
Jan 18 07:39:26 * sannes suggest we do the vi vs emacs later.. ?
Jan 18 07:39:30 <Tv> if you want to get political, please do
Jan 18 07:39:35 <Tv> also, this is #openmoko
Jan 18 07:39:48 <Paladine> Tv, I never started the discussion
Jan 18 07:39:51 <Paladine> Imerely contributed to it
Jan 18 07:40:05 <Tv> (10:05:20 AM) Tv: *yaawn*
Jan 18 07:40:05 <Tv> (10:05:27 AM) Tv: so has anyone done anything interesting with openembedded?
Jan 18 07:40:30 <sannes> I take it no annoucement yet ?
Jan 18 07:40:40 <Paladine> tomorrow apparantly
Jan 18 07:41:51 <sannes> right now I'm more excited about what is going to be in the hackers lunch box than the phone (been excited about that for a couple of months) ..
Jan 18 07:45:36 <hyakuhei> heh, I found out about the openmoko after I knew about the green phone and the iPhone, now I'm all conflicted :-S
Jan 18 07:45:55 <thedaniel>  man, it wins so hard against both of those
Jan 18 07:46:01 <xkr47> morning
Jan 18 07:46:02 <Tv> hyakuhei: rule #1: green phone is sdk and prototype only, it's not intended to be a usable phone
Jan 18 07:46:13 <hyakuhei> True enough
Jan 18 07:46:22 <Tv> green phone is meant to be a tool for phone vendors making their phones with Qt UI
Jan 18 07:46:26 <hyakuhei> doesn't stop *me* wanting one though
Jan 18 07:46:35 <Tv> hyakuhei: it'll likely suck batterywise etc
Jan 18 07:46:42 <hyakuhei> Indeed
Jan 18 07:47:21 <Elephantman> hello :)
Jan 18 07:48:05 <hyakuhei> hey Elephantman 
Jan 18 07:50:16 <jon_> is there a chance for wifi to be intergraded into the phone
Jan 18 07:50:59 <thedaniel> not the neo1973
Jan 18 07:51:05 <thedaniel> but maybe version 2 or 3
Jan 18 07:51:09 <thedaniel> down the road...
Jan 18 07:52:03 <Tv> all I know I have an extra laptop and a bluetooth dongle
Jan 18 07:52:20 <Tv> and my main laptop has bluetooth
Jan 18 07:52:26 <thedaniel> Tv: your other x60 doesn't have bluetooth?
Jan 18 07:52:29 <thedaniel> i'm surprised
Jan 18 07:52:31 <Tv> it does
Jan 18 07:52:36 <Tv> I no longer have that
Jan 18 07:52:40 <Tv> I'm talking about an ibook
Jan 18 07:52:46 <thedaniel> oic
Jan 18 07:52:55 <Tv> == bluetooth net working at home and whenever I have laptop open and wifi
Jan 18 07:53:28 <thedaniel> sweet - i generally connect to the internet with my mind these days
Jan 18 07:53:49 <Tv> yes, we've noticed the antenna is close to your brain
Jan 18 07:53:51 <Tv> *fry*
Jan 18 07:53:57 <thedaniel> but yeah, i have an ibook with a BT dongle as my 'sit at home and do stuff' machine
Jan 18 07:54:01 <thedaniel> lol
Jan 18 07:54:21 <thedaniel> so i'm set for non-EDGE internubz at home as well
Jan 18 07:54:39 <thedaniel> this should be promoted to folks that freak out about the lack of wifi in this chan or on the ml
Jan 18 07:54:54 <xkr47> can the moko control whether charging is allowed or not ?
Jan 18 07:55:04 * CM can't wait for qemu-0.8.4 (gcc4-support)
Jan 18 08:19:57 <rob_w> xkr47, when is this exspected ?
Jan 18 08:20:17 <rob_w> CM, actually , when is this exspected ?
Jan 18 08:22:15 <CM> rob_w: The 0.8.3 release is coming between jan and feb, but 0.8.4 (with the gcc4 support) I don't know.
Jan 18 08:22:36 <CM> Only what I heard some devs say
Jan 18 08:23:46 <rob_w> hmm it really bugs me .. seems gcc4 is a real big thing for qemu
Jan 18 08:30:28 <hrw> qemu gcc4 compatible???? FinallY
Jan 18 08:30:46 <CM> There's some patches around for it at least
Jan 18 08:30:57 <CM> And supposedly amd64 works fine
Jan 18 08:34:57 <xkr47> what kind of merits do you need to get the sdk early (by mailing the moko guys).. there was something on the web that you could list prior opensource stuff you've been involved in
Jan 18 08:35:19 <xkr47> I mean I would be interested in the sdk surely but I don't want to waste their time by asking if I'm way too n00b for them
Jan 18 08:35:44 <CM> I'm thinking the same
Jan 18 08:38:35 <hrw> did someone here use(d) Samsung 205BW monitor? 20" LCD widescreen 1680x1050
Jan 18 08:39:34 <rob_w> hrw, problems ?
Jan 18 08:40:19 <hrw> rob_w: no, I can buy it new quite cheap
Jan 18 08:40:49 <Psi> xkr47, i think that thing about telling them about prior opensource work, was to get on the list of ppl who got phones early, so they could write software
Jan 18 08:41:01 <Tv> xkr47: start playing with openembedded.org and gpe
Jan 18 08:41:05 <Tv> it shouldn't be hard to adjust for actual openmoko
Jan 18 08:41:20 <rob_w> hrw, you probably need to hack your ext video out to support wide screens ,, i found recent drivers not necessarly supporting them 
Jan 18 08:41:57 <hrw> rob_w: I use linux
Jan 18 08:42:34 <CM> hrw: I've read about that monitor on xbitlabs: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/20-21inch-3_5.html
Jan 18 08:42:46 <CM> check the conclutions on page 17 too
Jan 18 08:43:46 <rob_w> hrw, i know ;-)
Jan 18 09:06:18 <koen> aaargh
Jan 18 09:06:34 <koen> 56 mails containing basically "OMG!!!! w1f1!!!!!!"
Jan 18 09:07:23 <hrw> ;D
Jan 18 09:08:05 <koen> minus 10 insightfull ones from rwithby
Jan 18 09:14:48 <greentux> morning guys :)
Jan 18 09:16:20 <Psi> its 10:44pm here
Jan 18 09:16:33 <hrw> ~ugt
Jan 18 09:16:43 <apt> ugt is, like, Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
Jan 18 09:17:08 <Psi> hehe
Jan 18 09:17:37 <benJIman> pft clearly they should be using !bc
Jan 18 09:20:58 <ciastek> hehe
Jan 18 09:20:59 <ciastek> nice!
Jan 18 09:40:21 <benJIman> 10:09:47 <SUSEhelp> benJIman probably got up 3 hours ago after 9 hours of sleep, making their body-clock time about 11:01.
Jan 18 09:50:47 <xkr47> could the neo get any more bytes through USB 2.0 than USB 1.1 ? or is it already struggling with 1.1 ?
Jan 18 09:52:38 <CM> 1.1 is slow, so I'm sure it would have been higher with 2.0
Jan 18 09:53:00 <hrw> neo has 1.1 host/slave
Jan 18 09:53:13 <hrw> so it will not be faster when you connect it to usb 2.0 host
Jan 18 09:53:39 <CM> No, surely not. But if the chipset on the phone supported 2.0 it would have. :)
Jan 18 09:53:53 <hrw> CM: but iirc it does not support 2.0
Jan 18 09:53:54 <CM> Can't see any need for that now anyway.
Jan 18 09:54:17 <hrw> CM: think - external 750GB hdd...
Jan 18 09:54:17 <CM> 1.1 is fine when the memory card is so small anyway
Jan 18 09:54:26 <CM> Hehe
Jan 18 09:54:50 <hrw> yes.. yesterday I looked at microsd card. drop one to floor and you will never find it
Jan 18 09:55:37 <sannes> hrw : unless you have a big magnet to sweep the floor with .... :P
Jan 18 09:56:25 <florian> good morning
Jan 18 09:56:41 <CM> morning
Jan 18 10:41:05 <thedaniel> the email to the list from sencer at about 10 GMT is a beautiful piece of flame-retardant pwnage
Jan 18 10:41:28 <thedaniel> the first sentence alone worth the price of admission
Jan 18 10:41:38 <thedaniel> "
Jan 18 10:41:38 <thedaniel> Then for everbody's sake use the 350$ to buy two simple WiFi
Jan 18 10:41:38 <thedaniel> VOIP-phones, one for home, one for work and stop whining. "
Jan 18 10:43:28 <Sencer> thedaniel: it felt good letting it all out^^
Jan 18 10:43:52 <thedaniel> Sencer: ah ha! i didn't see you in my tab-completion list
Jan 18 10:44:08 <thedaniel> anyway, i thought that was a heck of a great email
Jan 18 10:47:01 <Sencer> thedaniel: I am expecting a lengthy rebuttal, I am not sure if beneath the flames the point got through ^^
Jan 18 10:47:48 <Paladine> Sencer, I take it your email was addressing all the people who keep whining about the lack of wifi?
Jan 18 10:47:55 <Paladine> (I am not on the mailing lists yet)
Jan 18 10:48:40 <Sencer> Paladine: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001425.html
Jan 18 10:48:46 <Sencer> Paladine: yes
Jan 18 10:49:40 <sannes> nice one :)
Jan 18 10:50:11 <danilos> Sencer: so, there is no WiFi?
Jan 18 10:50:13 * danilos runs :)
Jan 18 10:51:17 <koen> see topic
Jan 18 10:51:41 <thedaniel> Paladine: there was a specific guy
Jan 18 10:51:46 <Sencer> *G*
Jan 18 10:52:14 <thedaniel> his angle was 'the phone is useless to me without wifi. let me flame for 20 emails and tell you why you are not innovating if you don't release the phone with wifi. a phone with voip will cure cancer."
Jan 18 10:52:31 <thedaniel> being a dick.
Jan 18 10:53:24 <thedaniel> Paladine: http://pastie.caboo.se/33969 <-- mail in question
Jan 18 10:56:00 <Paladine> yeah I just read Sencer's post
Jan 18 10:56:36 <Paladine> I find it somewhat amusing that wifi is proving such a big issue for a (what is primarily a) phone
Jan 18 10:56:37 <koen> thedaniel: I heard phones cause cancer
Jan 18 10:56:38 <thedaniel> ah, ha i didn't notice that he'd linked to the archive
Jan 18 10:57:06 <thedaniel> koen: i heard that spending money on phones limits the money you have left over to spend on food and shelter
Jan 18 10:57:21 <thedaniel> so with those two factors combined, the neo is clearly Not Worth It
Jan 18 10:57:30 <koen> that's why I don't buy phones :)
Jan 18 10:58:14 <sannes> will windows be available on the neo? :P
Jan 18 10:58:31 <koen> sannes: yes
Jan 18 10:58:37 <Paladine> hehehe
Jan 18 10:58:43 <koen> well, windows CE
Jan 18 10:58:55 <sannes> what a waste .. :P
Jan 18 10:58:58 <Psi> i thought it was windows mobile?
Jan 18 10:59:10 <thedaniel> windows mobile is such a piece of shit
Jan 18 10:59:32 <thedaniel> even with the neo imminent, i jus bought an unlocked gsm phone because I can stand to use my HTC NO LONGER
Jan 18 10:59:36 <sannes> Hopefully not preinstalled?
Jan 18 11:00:12 <sannes> I was hoping neo1973 would be the first gear I would buy with Linux preinstalled :)
Jan 18 11:00:34 <Psi> im pretty sure the windows version is specific
Jan 18 11:01:15 <Psi> ie, you order one or the other
Jan 18 11:01:22 <Paladine> a friend of mine asked an interesting question earlier when I was talking to him about this.  Has the openmoko been submitted to the FCC yet for certification?
Jan 18 11:01:36 <Psi> pretty sure i read that it had
Jan 18 11:02:26 <sannes> the distro or the phone ?
Jan 18 11:02:28 <thedaniel> please stop calling the device openmoko
Jan 18 11:02:30 <Paladine> the phone
Jan 18 11:02:39 <Paladine> distro's don't need fcc approval as far as I know ;)
Jan 18 11:02:49 <sannes> thedaniel: you just saved me a question.. hehe
Jan 18 11:02:57 <thedaniel> phone = neo1973
Jan 18 11:03:02 <thedaniel> first of many, hopefully
Jan 18 11:03:04 <Paladine> yes ok, my apologies :p
Jan 18 11:03:27 <thedaniel> and i'd love to see openmoko run on lots of non-FIC hardware as well
Jan 18 11:03:33 <Psi> neo for short :P
Jan 18 11:03:45 <sannes> also, the gsm chip has been approved before? (Think I read that before?)
Jan 18 11:03:45 <thedaniel> to support this mostly i'll be crossing my fingers and baking hardware nerds cookies
Jan 18 11:04:17 <thedaniel> bc i think getting openmoko running on an htc phone is beyond my reach
Jan 18 11:04:32 <koen> sannes: it's a certified TI module
Jan 18 11:04:59 <sannes> koen: so it should be all good :)
Jan 18 11:05:53 <Paladine> TI as in Texas Instruments I presume?
Jan 18 11:06:53 <koen> yes
Jan 18 11:07:17 <Paladine> does this renaissanceman dude have some sort of commission contract with truphone or something?
Jan 18 11:09:51 <koen> http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/17/samsung-sch-w559-touts-vibrating-vibetonz-touchscreen/
Jan 18 11:09:51 <sannes> Paladine: that was my toughts exactly aswell, but I came to the conclusion that he probably just has issues (and want wifi really bad).. :P
Jan 18 11:13:26 <CM> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/01/18/lg_shows_iphone-like_prada_phone/
Jan 18 11:14:06 <Paladine> CM, I just read that earlier
Jan 18 11:14:19 <Paladine> wonder if we are going to see a legal battle between apple and LG
Jan 18 11:14:25 <Paladine> they do both look incredibly similar
Jan 18 11:14:31 <CM> For sure
Jan 18 11:15:07 <Paladine> anyone know what name it would have been submitted to the fcc with?
Jan 18 11:15:16 <Paladine> I can't find anything for neo1973 on fcc's site
Jan 18 11:16:47 <CM> I'm hoping for a big update on openmoko.com tomorrow.. The page needs it
Jan 18 11:16:49 <so_solid_moo> it's using an existing radio that's already certified
Jan 18 11:17:21 <Paladine> so_solid_moo, apparantly it would still need to be re-approved though
Jan 18 11:17:35 <so_solid_moo> Paladine: who says?
Jan 18 11:17:36 <Paladine> although I am not saying that as a fact
Jan 18 11:17:40 <Paladine> just going on what I have been told
Jan 18 11:18:09 <so_solid_moo> I don't see why the fcc would want to reapprove something that's already approved
Jan 18 11:18:23 <so_solid_moo> maybe they do, but it sounds unlikely to me.
Jan 18 11:18:39 <sannes> think I read somewhere that altough it needs to be reapproved it often goes quicker?
Jan 18 11:18:47 <Paladine> yeah like I said, I don't know for a fact, just going on "heresay"
Jan 18 11:19:08 <sannes> maybe they have to check out antenna + chip or something.. heh
Jan 18 11:19:11 <koen> so_solid_moo: I suspect the FCC approves 'devices' instead of modules
Jan 18 11:19:34 <so_solid_moo> possibly
Jan 18 11:20:00 <CM> Yes, I think it's the radiaton things they check
Jan 18 11:20:05 <Paladine> yeah I think itis the combination of technologies that would need approving, as opposed to the individual components
Jan 18 11:20:34 <CM> Have a friend who designs antennas and board layout for Nokia
Jan 18 11:20:52 <Paladine> saying that though, I honestly can't see a serious manufacturer neglecting to get the approval they need from the relevant authorities
Jan 18 11:21:05 <Paladine> one would assume they have had to deal with people like the FCC many times in the past
Jan 18 11:21:35 * so_solid_moo doesn't care so long as it's ok to use in the uk :D
Jan 18 11:45:05 <buz> as long as it doesnt get seized by customs i couldnt care les if the thing is allowed or not
Jan 18 11:51:17 <buz> i wonder what the winmob version in china will cost
Jan 18 11:51:22 <buz> chances are it will actually be cheaper?
Jan 18 11:51:53 <Psi> windows isn't free
Jan 18 11:51:58 <buz> yes
Jan 18 11:52:04 <buz> but overhead in china is much lower
Jan 18 11:52:10 <buz> and the volume much higher
Jan 18 11:52:12 <Iome> mm.,ÿjåiåååååååååååååååååååååååååååååååååååååååååijiåoooooooooooj+x+ynoýod+h0jujb5tiuyttttäol5nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.5ååååååååååyuå7uuuuuuu7iu7c  
Jan 18 11:52:26 <Psi> actually, maybe windows is free in china :P
Jan 18 11:52:50 <buz> if you're good at negotiating windows is always free
Jan 18 11:55:32 <koen> hmmmm
Jan 18 11:55:49 * koen proposes a "Real People Use Real Names" rule on the mailinglists
Jan 18 11:56:41 <buz> agreed
Jan 18 11:56:51 <buz> but then again, the renassiance guy is just trolling
Jan 18 11:57:16 <koen> maybe I'm getting too old
Jan 18 11:57:28 <koen> or maybe I'm not OMG 1337 enough
Jan 18 12:04:53 <xkr47> koen, I guess one can't enforce that
Jan 18 12:05:12 <koen> xkr47: sure, unsubscribe anyone without a real name :)
Jan 18 12:05:43 <xkr47> ah
Jan 18 12:05:46 <xkr47> :)
Jan 18 12:06:03 <koen> I'd be more comfortable responding to "John Doe" than "OMG1337t0m4t0"
Jan 18 12:06:08 <xkr47> :))
Jan 18 12:15:32 <xkr47> it's hard to shift people's opinion about them not being in the center of the world
Jan 18 12:15:45 <xkr47> sorry about them being...
Jan 18 12:17:39 <Stephmw> ... but I *am* in the center of the world... Greenwich meridian?
Jan 18 12:20:52 * koen guesses Stephmw failed his geometry class ;)
Jan 18 12:20:54 <yacc> buz: the renaissance guy does not know what the benefits of VoIP are.
Jan 18 12:21:22 <buz> i still trying to figure out how exactly you would do UMA without carriers help
Jan 18 12:21:33 <yacc> UMA?
Jan 18 12:21:45 <koen> unified mobile ass?
Jan 18 12:22:08 <yacc> koen: What should this UMA do?
Jan 18 12:22:27 <koen> no idea
Jan 18 12:23:50 <xkr47> maybe everybody should just wish renaissance boy a happy life with the splendid iphony
Jan 18 12:24:14 <koen> the iphone is a neat device
Jan 18 12:24:24 <koen> can't wait to install openmoko on it :)
Jan 18 12:24:28 <xkr47> well an unified mobile ass would be like when shit hits the fan
Jan 18 12:26:37 <Stephmw> koen: naw, just referring to the deeply ingrained belief that the UK is the centre of the world... geographically
Jan 18 12:27:05 <koen> geographically the world is a sphere :)
Jan 18 12:27:30 * Stephmw slaps koen about with the British Imperium
Jan 18 12:27:43 <Stephmw> honestly, you had to go kill a perfectly good joke ;)
Jan 18 12:27:44 <xkr47> well at least earth, wouldn't world actually encompass the whole universe ?-)
Jan 18 12:30:35 * xkr47 gives up on the idea that he would be the centre of the world as he realizes how hard it would be for gps satellites to keep the proper coordinates up to date
Jan 18 12:55:36 <buz> http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadgetmobile/~3/77238550/ prada????
Jan 18 13:15:41 <xkr47> buz, lol @ "first completely touch screen mobile phone" ... it has three visible buttons in the pic :)
Jan 18 13:15:45 <xkr47> (at least :)
Jan 18 13:25:46 <koen> heh
Jan 18 13:25:47 <koen> http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/01/17/HNciscoiphonegpl_1.html
Jan 18 13:31:48 * CM keeps cheering for the GPL Violations Project
Jan 18 13:32:02 <xkr47> that sounds even better when people forget to mention it's cisco's iphone ;)
Jan 18 13:32:09 * xkr47 too
Jan 18 13:32:12 <CM> Didn't know that Cisco owned Linksys though
Jan 18 13:34:43 <xkr47> sad thing that they don't mention in the article they have enforced ALL 100 violations
Jan 18 13:35:08 <xkr47> and I guess the number is rising all the time
Jan 18 13:46:58 <LaF0rge> xkr: I'm not even counting at the moment. no time for that ;)
Jan 18 13:52:28 <xkr47> LaF0rge, :)
Jan 18 13:52:51 <xkr47> LaF0rge, getting any sleep ?-P
Jan 18 13:54:53 <alphaone> LaF0rge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep :-)
Jan 18 13:56:08 <CM> alphaone: Hehe... "Aka Da Vinci sleep or Überman sleep"
Jan 18 13:57:01 <Stephmw> ... and another blackout
Jan 18 13:57:03 <Stephmw> ... makes flashing phones interesting... will it flash? will it brick?
Jan 18 13:57:34 * Stephmw puts up the score for the day so far, 4 brownouts, 2 blackouts
Jan 18 13:57:38 <CM> Stephmw: Time to get an UPS?
Jan 18 13:58:04 <CM> I've had one 15-minute blackout in 2.5 years in my apartment
Jan 18 13:58:20 <Stephmw> CM: this is at work... 1700 peopls would need to be powered
Jan 18 13:58:50 <CM> Ah, ouch.. 
Jan 18 13:59:33 <Stephmw> that's a lot of infrastructure ;)
Jan 18 14:00:44 <xkr47> you need a power plant ;)
Jan 18 14:01:21 <Stephmw> yeah, that V12 would come in handy
Jan 18 14:02:05 <aloril> quite busy mailing list ;-)
Jan 18 14:02:19 <koen> 'busy'
Jan 18 14:02:43 <koen> 90% of the traffic can be avoid by introducing the poster to that thing called 'google'
Jan 18 14:03:58 <Sencer> my guess is it will split at some point in the future between "talk" and "dev"
Jan 18 14:04:13 <koen> dev and n00bs
Jan 18 14:04:18 <koen> pardon my leetspeak
Jan 18 14:04:26 <XorA> :-D
Jan 18 14:04:38 <XorA> 1337sp43k surely
Jan 18 14:04:44 <koen> eeks!
Jan 18 14:04:48 <koen> scottish people here
Jan 18 14:05:26 <XorA> we is in dah haus
Jan 18 14:10:47 <aloril> http://www.slashgear.com/?p=3496&akst_action=share-this
Jan 18 14:11:55 * Stephmw watches the lights flicker
Jan 18 14:16:19 <aloril> looks a bit different than press release photos
Jan 18 14:16:39 <seaLne> so its not a hole at the bottom then, just recessed?
Jan 18 14:16:46 * koen watches flickr
Jan 18 14:20:21 <buz> woah that black neo is neat
Jan 18 14:20:31 <buz> is that for real?
Jan 18 14:21:08 <Stephmw> it's probably a soft-tooled proto
Jan 18 14:21:18 <Stephmw> colours aren't finalised for those, typically
Jan 18 14:21:20 <buz> i want THAT
Jan 18 14:21:42 <buz> the anti iphone
Jan 18 14:22:43 <koen> http://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/351009934/in/photostream/
Jan 18 14:22:59 <koen> I still don't know if I'd like the TS recessed or not
Jan 18 14:23:50 <Stephmw> I dislike recessed TS, I hated it on the P910
Jan 18 14:23:53 <koen> btw, mediaplayer screenshot: http://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/350825877/
Jan 18 14:24:25 <koen> Stephmw: yeah, recessed ts makes it hard to get your finger on the edges of the screen
Jan 18 14:24:44 <Stephmw> it also makes it real easy for dust to go inside
Jan 18 14:24:58 <aloril> http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12732 "Despite not having a working demo device on hand..."
Jan 18 14:25:13 <aloril> --> I read it this way: software is not yet enough ready to be demoed
Jan 18 14:25:31 * aloril is just guessing of course
Jan 18 14:26:36 <aloril> hmm.. it says 3 months too... I wonder if February if open, but recommended only for developers and 1 month after that recommended for everybody?
Jan 18 14:26:53 <aloril> well... just a day and we will get answers ;-)
Jan 18 14:28:16 <xkr47> :)
Jan 18 14:31:10 <xkr47> koen, mediaplayer screenshot at the right ?
Jan 18 14:33:55 <koen> xkr47: I think so
Jan 18 14:34:28 <xkr47> here's the full size image: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=350825877&size=o
Jan 18 14:34:35 <CM> Hope I can get a black one..
Jan 18 14:34:50 <xkr47> "me hopes you get both covers in the package :)
Jan 18 14:35:11 <xkr47> koen, looks like we can confirm your guess
Jan 18 14:35:14 <meyerm_> BTW: Does anbody know where the 1973 comes from? ;-)
Jan 18 14:35:25 <seaLne> meyerm_: first mobile phone call
Jan 18 14:35:27 <koen> pretty decent pictures from a camera phone as well
Jan 18 14:35:33 <Stephmw> CM: some sandpaper will do :)
Jan 18 14:35:40 <meyerm_> seaLne: Ah, cool :D
Jan 18 14:35:48 <leventhal> My first guess was Keanu Reeves' birthyear
Jan 18 14:35:54 <xkr47> :D
Jan 18 14:35:55 <seaLne> :)
Jan 18 14:36:15 <xkr47> I'll put the white rabbit as screensaver pic :D
Jan 18 14:36:21 <meyerm_> *g*
Jan 18 14:36:37 <xkr47> wonder what media player sw they have
Jan 18 14:36:38 <koen> hmmm
Jan 18 14:36:45 <koen> 2 brownouts in last 15 minutes
Jan 18 14:37:51 <Stephmw> koen: your turn?
Jan 18 14:37:58 <CM> Maybe the "official" launch will be April 3:rd, since it was that day 1973 that the first call was made
Jan 18 14:38:05 <xkr47> koen, btw if you compare the same 350825877 pic with the press release, you'll see that the top bar now has lots of icons
Jan 18 14:38:30 <meyerm_> Hopefully there won't be too much ;)
Jan 18 14:38:30 <koen> yes, noticed that
Jan 18 14:38:44 <koen> although I still think those are mockups
Jan 18 14:38:48 <nh_work> anyone ever figure out what the hole in the bottom of the device is for? :)
Jan 18 14:38:56 <koen> if not, I how they ship a loupe alongside the phone
Jan 18 14:38:59 <xkr47> yeah, the time is the same in all shots ;)
Jan 18 14:39:14 <xkr47> koen, loupe ?
Jan 18 14:39:24 <koen> magnifying glass
Jan 18 14:39:45 <xkr47> hmm
Jan 18 14:39:54 <leventhal> nh_work: I'm adding a chain and keeping it in my front pocket. People will think I'm classy until I make a call.
Jan 18 14:40:10 <nh_work> leventhal: I was thinking maybe it's for an oversized keychain. ;)
Jan 18 14:40:22 <leventhal> That would be cool too
Jan 18 14:40:32 <xkr47> .. it also has a "NEO1973" sticker or whatever
Jan 18 14:40:51 <leventhal> Or attach one of those retractable cord beltclips
Jan 18 14:40:59 <leventhal> And a very good screen protector..
Jan 18 14:41:18 <xkr47> you could have the moko as an earring ;--)
Jan 18 14:41:28 <leventhal> .. oh.. I know why. It's for all of those call-activated light up decorations.
Jan 18 14:41:30 <nh_work> oh well.  I'll probably have to get in on the second gen devices, I bought an E2 a couple of months ago.
Jan 18 14:41:45 <xkr47> :
Jan 18 14:41:46 <xkr47> :P
Jan 18 14:41:50 <koen> nh_work: run openmoko on the e2 :)
Jan 18 14:42:01 <nh_work> koen: that's kind of what I'm thinking. :)
Jan 18 14:42:05 <koen> :D
Jan 18 14:43:04 <nh_work> koen: We'll have to see how it works out with the smaller res screen and keypad.
Jan 18 14:43:43 <koen> I think the keypad save you from a a lot of buttons on screen :)
Jan 18 14:44:15 <nh_work> koen: yeah, that could be very nice.
Jan 18 14:44:28 <nh_work> koen: only if it supports it well though.
Jan 18 14:45:00 <koen> it's not hard to do better as motorola firmware
Jan 18 14:46:18 <nh_work> koen: I'm curious what we could do with evas.  
Jan 18 14:47:21 <nh_work> the e2 has that nice up/down button on the side that could be used for scrolling 
Jan 18 14:47:48 <aloril> about software in neo: I prefer to get it now with basic software than to get later with more: I can always update it myself ;-)
Jan 18 14:48:36 <nh_work> aloril: true enough.  I'm fine with just generally working phone software.  The other stuff we can add.
Jan 18 14:48:52 <nh_work> the underlying stuff is more important.
Jan 18 14:50:14 <aloril> lots of talk about wifi, I think there might be nice marked for wifi sleeve (battery + wifi usb stick)
Jan 18 14:50:47 * koen wonders how a sleeves works on oval shape 
Jan 18 14:51:04 <koen> bleh, can't spell today
Jan 18 14:51:05 <stefan_schmidt> koen: put in in the whole. :)
Jan 18 14:51:26 <aloril> where is USB port in Neo1973?
Jan 18 14:51:32 <stefan_schmidt> heh, hole even
Jan 18 14:51:41 * stefan_schmidt can't spell, too.
Jan 18 14:55:28 <koen> another batch of brownouts...
Jan 18 14:55:28 <koen> ~hail laptops
Jan 18 14:55:29 * apt bows down to laptops and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!"
Jan 18 14:55:41 <noidd> funny you should sayu that
Jan 18 14:55:55 <noidd> I wondered if evas would ever get off the ground with its widget system
Jan 18 14:58:24 <koen> etk is coming along nicely
Jan 18 15:13:26 <noidd> etk?
Jan 18 15:13:35 <noidd> does that actually exist or are you parodying me? ;-)
Jan 18 15:18:05 <koen> that's the preferred widget kit for evas/efl these days
Jan 18 15:21:44 <koen> noidd: http://code.google.com/p/etoolkit/
Jan 18 15:22:27 <koen> and of course http://projects.linuxtogo.org/projects/eflpp/
Jan 18 15:27:18 <PirateHead> Boy, am I behind the times. I've never heard of any of those.
Jan 18 15:28:03 <koen> and even better, the language binding use a nice namespace
Jan 18 15:28:26 <koen> in c# you can just replace the the gtk dll with the etk dll and it just works(tm)
Jan 18 15:39:26 <noidd> sweet! thanks
Jan 18 15:39:28 <noidd> looking
Jan 18 15:40:55 <noidd> they use the same methods and args as gtk?
Jan 18 15:41:02 <noidd> or am I misunderstanding what you're saying
Jan 18 15:41:04 <koen> I guess so
Jan 18 15:41:19 <noidd> ie - header files are identical
Jan 18 15:41:48 <noidd> or at least provides gtklike stubs that translate to etk
Jan 18 15:41:51 <noidd> man - that's shiny
Jan 18 15:42:22 <noidd> that might actually explain how the UI mockups on the openmoko website actually look perty as opposed to gtk
Jan 18 15:42:50 <noidd> mickeyl is a dev on that project too.  So, I have a 2 and a 2.  If I add them, do I get 4? :-)
Jan 18 15:48:53 <hrw> heh.. openmoko ML is .... no comments
Jan 18 15:49:11 <hrw> fetch, mark as read
Jan 18 16:00:47 <koen> noidd: eflpp predates openmoko
Jan 18 16:01:18 <noidd> Going to download and take a look
Jan 18 16:09:42 <aloril> this article mentions CES and February (in contrast to the Register article that mentions CES and March): http://blogs.pcworld.com/digitalworld/archives/2007/01/open_source_at.html
Jan 18 16:13:22 <aloril> screenshot of onscreen keyboard: http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/11589
Jan 18 16:14:02 <aloril> and comment about v2: "Additional features, such as 3G support and a sliding keyboard, are also in the works."
Jan 18 16:22:41 <koen> heh
Jan 18 16:23:01 <koen> a loupe and some nanostyli
Jan 18 16:23:33 <koen> that keyboard would be 2cm wide on the real screen
Jan 18 16:24:25 <aloril> hehe, so its just mockup ..
Jan 18 16:24:50 <aloril> anyway, its missing alt and ctrl and ... well there are better options anyway ;-)
Jan 18 16:25:19 <koen> but it does have an "Opion" button
Jan 18 16:26:44 <XorA> keyboards are for wimps
Jan 18 17:16:27 <rox> is anybody already working on black/white listing?
Jan 18 17:37:38 <xkr47> aloril, nice
Jan 18 17:45:27 <xkr47> koen, well.. the screenshot is downscaled from the real resolution..
Jan 18 17:45:57 <Genesis> yo
Jan 18 17:46:00 <Genesis> i've a silly question , is there some place to add a crosspad+button on the side of the neo ?
Jan 18 17:46:15 <xkr47> what's a crosspad ?-)
Jan 18 17:46:26 <Genesis> like gameboy
Jan 18 17:46:44 <xkr47> you mean the bluetooth one that was pasted earlier ?
Jan 18 17:46:47 <Zer0Her0_> d-pas
Jan 18 17:46:53 <Zer0Her0_> er d-pad
Jan 18 17:46:53 <xkr47> or well you weren't here
Jan 18 17:46:55 <Elephantman> bye :)
Jan 18 17:47:16 <Genesis> xkr47 : i just come , if you can remember url plz
Jan 18 17:47:30 <xkr47> let's see
Jan 18 17:49:38 <xkr47> http://www.mobile-review.com/pda/review/bt-gamepad-en.shtml
Jan 18 17:50:15 <xkr47> but I don't know if it's supported.. 
Jan 18 17:50:38 <xkr47> .. yet ;)
Jan 18 17:50:39 <Genesis> it's big
Jan 18 17:50:52 <Genesis> not sure that 'ill very useful with the neo
Jan 18 17:52:24 <xkr47> :)
Jan 18 17:52:43 <xkr47> what do the wii remotes use ;)
Jan 18 17:52:51 <xkr47> are the bluetooth ?-)
Jan 18 17:53:54 <Genesis> hehe i think yes
Jan 18 17:54:08 <Genesis> i saw a support for linux
Jan 18 17:54:14 <xkr47> lol
Jan 18 17:54:22 * xkr47 just got a crazy idea :)
Jan 18 17:54:43 <Genesis> it's supported on the openwrt
Jan 18 17:54:45 <Genesis> so ;)
Jan 18 17:54:53 <xkr47> if you'd glue a pen to the wii remote, you could paint stuff and the moko could draw a picture and send it to others
Jan 18 17:54:56 <xkr47> :)
Jan 18 17:55:00 <xkr47> like when in a conference call
Jan 18 17:55:21 <xkr47> a picture -> the same picture
Jan 18 17:55:46 <Genesis> http://pigeond.net/?cat=flightgear&comments=fg-wiimote
Jan 18 17:58:33 <cbpage> heh
Jan 18 17:58:39 <cbpage> i could see gluing ir transmitters to the neo now
Jan 18 18:01:16 <ciastek> oh my, iphone, lg prada, google phone.. whos next?
Jan 18 18:07:33 <nonick01> maybe microsoft joins :)
Jan 18 18:07:44 <nonick01> no for the sake of god!
Jan 18 18:08:33 <nonick01> is possible that microsoft replies to apple's iphone
Jan 18 18:08:45 <lightyear> they have to nonick01 
Jan 18 18:09:02 <lightyear> but the reply wouldn't be more than a quiet quieek
Jan 18 18:09:05 <nonick01> they replied to the iPod with the zune so what is holding them?
Jan 18 18:09:29 <nonick01> I imagine it only with an BSOD
Jan 18 18:16:08 <rwhitby> So, it's Friday in my timezone ... ;-)
Jan 18 18:17:20 <koen> rwhitby: and your tz is close to sean's :)
Jan 18 18:18:20 <rwhitby> indeed :-)
Jan 18 18:18:39 <rwhitby> but he's usually somewhere else in the world, probably.
Jan 18 18:19:28 * xkr47 holds thumbs up for openmoko :)
Jan 18 18:19:37 <xkr47> (regarding announcement :)
Jan 18 18:20:58 <koen> rwhitby: I suspect he's in taipei this week
Jan 18 18:21:06 <koen> recovering from a serious jetlag
Jan 18 18:24:38 <greentux> koen, what do you think? what they mean with "friday" :) ? 
Jan 18 18:24:53 <hrw> greentux: announcement
Jan 18 18:24:56 <greentux> greentux:  friday in europe, friday in taiwan?
Jan 18 18:25:12 <koen> greentux: saterday morning :)
Jan 18 18:25:15 <greentux> its a long friday, taiwan has friday now I assume
Jan 18 18:25:22 <hrw> "sorry guys, we shutdown the project.\n\n\n\nI was joking."
Jan 18 18:25:29 <koen> (judging from how crappy the mail servers are over here)
Jan 18 18:26:03 <greentux> koen:  do you also have "nice" weather, that hrw will get, after we have enough in dresden ... hoho
Jan 18 18:26:25 <hrw> greentux: 100-150 km/h wind + rain?
Jan 18 18:26:42 <koen> greentux: yep, 'storm'
Jan 18 18:26:46 <Psi> its been friday for 7h58m in my tz
Jan 18 18:27:36 <greentux> 38kt up to 58kt!
Jan 18 18:27:54 <greentux> 1kt = 1.852km/h
Jan 18 18:27:59 <greentux> rainy, thunder, storm
Jan 18 18:28:02 <koen> 1 mile / hour
Jan 18 18:28:16 <greentux> nautical mile... :) not land mile
Jan 18 18:28:31 <koen> greentux: the navy had an enlistment commercial where one 'captain' said "20 knots per hour"
Jan 18 18:29:00 <greentux> koen:  perhaps doing knots on a robe
Jan 18 18:29:59 <koen> I couldn't stop laughing
Jan 18 18:29:59 <koen> since it was all about getting educated in the navy
Jan 18 18:30:46 <hrw> openmoko-spam ML is funny
Jan 18 18:30:46 <rwhitby> "Friday" = 23:59, Hawaiian time.
Jan 18 18:31:17 <greentux> :(
Jan 18 18:31:30 <greentux> I think I will go out for 10 minutes to fly some meters...
Jan 18 18:40:37 <Niacin> so what devices are currently supported under openmoko?
Jan 18 18:40:48 <koen> none
Jan 18 18:40:58 <Niacin> so its not at a usable stage? 
Jan 18 18:41:07 <koen> it is not released yet
Jan 18 18:41:11 <xorAxAx> its not released yet
Jan 18 18:41:17 <Niacin> arr 
Jan 18 18:41:18 <Psi> its not released yet
Jan 18 18:41:19 <koen> so it's in no stage
Jan 18 18:41:27 <Psi> it needed to be said again :P
Jan 18 18:41:52 <xorAxAx> 20:11:13 < koen> it is not released yet
Jan 18 18:41:52 <xorAxAx> 20:11:16 < xorAxAx> its not released yet
Jan 18 18:42:00 <xorAxAx> you are 10 seconds too late, Psi 
Jan 18 18:42:08 <Psi> no. i saw them
Jan 18 18:42:11 <Niacin> i'm working on getting goumicator working on my cell phone.. just checking if there is any other open source projects that i could try
Jan 18 18:42:15 <Psi> but it needed to be said again
Jan 18 18:44:20 <ciastek> but its not released yet
Jan 18 19:00:28 <Sencer> 19:38 < nonick01> is possible that microsoft replies to apple's iphone
Jan 18 19:00:38 <Sencer> nonick01: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo&eurl=
Jan 18 19:01:14 <thedaniel> damn, 177 people
Jan 18 19:01:41 <Zer0Her0_> 178
Jan 18 19:01:44 <Zer0Her0_> ;)
Jan 18 19:05:19 <nonick01> will be there anothers phones designs for low/middle classes?
Jan 18 19:06:34 <jthomas> nonick01, probably someday, but this first one is for those who wanna play and get a bit dirty, i believe.  once the software is better fleshed out and more stable, it'll be portabgle to other phones.
Jan 18 19:07:13 <nonick01> ok, i'm satisfeed
Jan 18 19:08:57 <jthomas> nonick01: i hope we all will be!! :)
Jan 18 19:10:53 <nonick01> because I have in my PC some crappy mockups of mobile phones that can be used in the future (I need to improve it)
Jan 18 19:12:59 * koen sents a rant to the mailinglist
Jan 18 19:13:38 <benJIman> does it contain OHES NOES NO WIFI!!!?
Jan 18 19:14:18 <Miniux> lol... the list is getting so flooded :-|
Jan 18 19:14:24 <prpplague> benJIman: ??
Jan 18 19:15:00 <koen> prpplague: 70+ mails yesterday containing basically "OMG!!!! NO WIFI!!!!!"
Jan 18 19:15:06 <Miniux> yeah
Jan 18 19:15:13 <koen> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001491.html
Jan 18 19:15:44 <Miniux> The real question is why you would need to call your parents from a wifi cafe in London... and not just do it when you go home to a computer...
Jan 18 19:16:20 <benJIman> Miniux: well I don't even have a mobile never needed one
Jan 18 19:16:35 <benJIman> why would you need something to call people when you can just go to an internet connection and use irc
Jan 18 19:16:37 <Miniux> Neither do I, but I miss my T|T
Jan 18 19:16:53 <koen> a mobile was a prereq of letting me come home after midnight when I was 16
Jan 18 19:17:22 <Miniux> yeah well I lived in a town with no roads out and the chances of me scoring a plane ticket were slim
Jan 18 19:17:44 <benJIman> koen: I find a device known as a key more useful
Jan 18 19:18:26 <koen> benJIman: that doesn't help against a screaming mother
Jan 18 19:18:44 <benJIman> ^_^
Jan 18 19:19:11 <cbpage> heh
Jan 18 19:19:17 <Miniux> koen: he didn't leave the house I guess?
Jan 18 19:19:21 <cbpage> to me it's like "hey, there's bluetooth..."
Jan 18 19:19:40 <koen> http://www.qoheleth.uklinux.net/blog/?p=137
Jan 18 19:19:49 <benJIman> Personally I'd rather a phone with no buttons and no display if I were to have one
Jan 18 19:19:58 <benJIman> Well, one button
Jan 18 19:20:09 <cbpage> it'd have to dial 911, here ;)
Jan 18 19:21:01 <Miniux> Would that one button dial your non existant personal secretary?
Jan 18 19:21:15 <benJIman> It would be "call" or "answer" depending on context
Jan 18 19:22:07 <benJIman> Could look something like http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/preview/sw/switch357/FStng001.jpg
Jan 18 19:22:24 <prpplague> koen: ahh
Jan 18 19:26:32 <Genesis> hey koen prpplague :)
Jan 18 19:27:19 <noidd> does anyone have a link to a full rez screenshot of openmoko (640x480)
Jan 18 19:28:09 <Miniux> http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html
Jan 18 19:28:48 <Genesis> i find there is a lack of pcb screenshot
Jan 18 19:30:33 <noidd> now i'm embarrassed
Jan 18 19:30:34 <noidd> thx
Jan 18 19:34:21 <koen> noidd: 480x640 :)
Jan 18 19:40:23 <pjz> man the list is noisy with a bunch of clueless people
Jan 18 19:40:35 <koen> ya think?
Jan 18 19:42:43 <Miniux> it was quite awesome last week.  I hope it will clear out again
Jan 18 19:51:29 <rwhitby> there will need to be a separate developer list.  guaranteed.
Jan 18 19:52:04 <koen> but it will be secret
Jan 18 19:52:10 <koen> and require a secret handshake
Jan 18 19:52:24 <koen> and answer 3 question you have to look up on the internet
Jan 18 19:52:29 <cbpage> ;)
Jan 18 19:52:41 <rwhitby> nah, just put the address in an svn repo - that will be a high enough barrier to entry.
Jan 18 19:52:56 <leventhal> Hah.. that works :)
Jan 18 19:53:22 <koen> especially seeing reply-to-list is already to much trouble for people
Jan 18 19:53:28 <Sencer> there is no need. having seperate talk and dev lists works for other projects as well. No need to hide them.
Jan 18 19:53:28 <koen> "OMG!!! 3 actions in gmail"
Jan 18 19:53:47 <Sencer> I mean, no need to hide them. Seperating them is ok.
Jan 18 20:14:12 <l4rs> hm... interesting parts of the "Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary" discussion were automatically moved to my spam folder...
Jan 18 20:14:59 <mintee> anyone (providers) biting on the OpenMoko?
Jan 18 20:15:10 <Stephmw> they're not intended to
Jan 18 20:15:17 <Stephmw> not high enough volumes
Jan 18 20:15:29 <Stephmw> (yet)
Jan 18 20:15:33 <mintee> so who would be the carrier?
Jan 18 20:15:53 <Stephmw> it's a GSM phone - any GSM operator will do
Jan 18 20:16:03 <Stephmw> on or off contract
Jan 18 20:16:58 <mintee> ah... i see
Jan 18 20:17:27 <Stephmw> from the US?
Jan 18 20:17:37 <mintee> yes, i am
Jan 18 20:17:38 <Stephmw> just guessing from the questions :)
Jan 18 20:17:45 <mintee> exactully ;)
Jan 18 20:17:51 <mintee> wouldn't be so easy over here
Jan 18 20:18:25 <mintee> http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_us.shtml
Jan 18 20:19:04 <Stephmw> yeah, the US operators are so 1980s
Jan 18 20:19:17 <Stephmw> lockin, walled garden, penalties, number portability...
Jan 18 20:19:48 <mintee> *sigh
Jan 18 20:20:12 * CM has never had a mobile contract
Jan 18 20:20:31 <mintee> Verizon pwns me
Jan 18 20:20:35 <CM> Hehe
Jan 18 20:20:44 <Stephmw> mintee: you're Verizon's biatch
Jan 18 20:20:49 <mintee> jya
Jan 18 20:21:13 <mintee> been with them for 4 years now... and i'm stuck with a shiaty, xv6700...
Jan 18 20:21:32 <mintee> ready for something different, preferably one that isn't running windows mobile 5.0
Jan 18 20:22:18 <noidd> I spoke to Cingular today to ask them about using my own non-cing phone
Jan 18 20:22:32 <noidd> they basically said that phone would work out the box with just inserting the sim
Jan 18 20:23:06 <noidd> but I would need to do some configuration / finger-poken-mitten-grabbin with configuration users/passwords to get internet working.
Jan 18 20:23:20 <noidd> and that their tech support would walk me through it on the phone.
Jan 18 20:23:34 <mintee> hahaha, yeah, good luck with tath
Jan 18 20:23:37 <mintee> *that
Jan 18 20:25:22 <noidd> Well, it has to be done right?
Jan 18 20:25:32 <noidd> how else am I going to get data services on the neo
Jan 18 20:25:57 <zqx3> lazyweb
Jan 18 20:26:56 <Stephmw> noidd: typically you can find such settings on the web
Jan 18 20:26:58 <koen> noidd: over here I can send an sms to a special number and it will send back the setting and my phone will use those automagically
Jan 18 20:27:06 <Stephmw> noidd: the passwords aren't user-specific
Jan 18 20:27:18 <Stephmw> koen: same in the UK
Jan 18 20:27:38 <koen> Stephmw: we're on the right side of the pond :)
Jan 18 20:30:35 <mintee> what's the neo?
Jan 18 20:30:59 <koen> mintee: first link in topic
Jan 18 20:31:33 <mintee> first link in the topic is http://www.openmoko.com/
Jan 18 20:32:16 <pike_> noidd: ask to speak with mike in 2nd tier. at least 2 mikes with tech support in every company i ever worked for ;)
Jan 18 20:32:50 <stefan_schmidt> mintee: You've read this site? Neo1973 is the first phone with openmoko.
Jan 18 20:33:02 <mintee> ah, sorry
Jan 18 20:33:13 <greentux> mickeyl:  evening.. its friday in taiwan... 
Jan 18 20:33:22 * mintee plucks out an eye
Jan 18 20:33:43 <Stephmw> greentux: you're keeping a close eye :)
Jan 18 20:34:08 <greentux> Stephmw:  I missed something?
Jan 18 20:34:12 <stefan_schmidt> mintee: Some people, mine included, are a bit harsh atm. To many people flood irc an ml without reading stuff before asking.
Jan 18 20:34:56 <mintee> of course, i completely understand... i'm not offended.  My fault for being lazy
Jan 18 20:34:57 <greentux> stefan_schmidt:  you mean the OMG no WIFI ML? or the empty announce list?
Jan 18 20:35:09 <Stephmw> greentux: no - just your comment :) You're keeping track of when FIX is likely to announce :)
Jan 18 20:36:12 <stefan_schmidt> greentux: heh, stay calm. mickeyl told you friday of _which_ week? ;)
Jan 18 20:36:29 <stefan_schmidt> just kidding
Jan 18 20:36:54 <greentux> stefan_schmidt:  see you @fosdem too?
Jan 18 20:37:13 <stefan_schmidt> greentux: yes, just booked the hostel today.
Jan 18 20:37:48 <greentux> fine. friday beer event
Jan 18 20:38:01 <greentux> friday again, aaah mickeyl means THAT friday
Jan 18 20:38:03 <stefan_schmidt> greentux: heh, I will be there. :)
Jan 18 20:39:41 * stefan_schmidt reads through some SD docs to get a clue if 2GB microSD is already SDHC or only 4GB and above.
Jan 18 20:41:21 <stefan_schmidt> ah, wikipedia tells 4 and 8GB ar SDHC
Jan 18 20:42:08 <mintee> is there a release price on the Neo?
Jan 18 20:43:09 <stefan_schmidt> mintee: 350$
Jan 18 20:44:32 <noidd> nice
Jan 18 20:44:46 <noidd> Koen: can you share the number to SMS if you get a chance?
Jan 18 20:46:29 <mintee> awesome, thanks Stephmw
Jan 18 20:46:35 <mintee> err
Jan 18 20:56:13 <leventhal> fintroll? like the finnish metal?
Jan 18 20:56:30 <kaboofa> fintroll!
Jan 18 20:56:50 <ozamosi> Yes. All my computers are named after finnish music groups
Jan 18 20:56:54 <leventhal> wicked
Jan 18 20:57:00 <ozamosi> I also have bomfunk, eläkeläiset and lordi
Jan 18 20:57:57 <ozamosi> So, basicly, it's not exactly an honor to have given name to one of my computers :)
Jan 18 20:58:10 <koen> noidd: it's carrier specific
Jan 18 21:00:02 <noidd> ah, gotcha
Jan 18 21:00:08 <noidd> Well, I'm with cingular
Jan 18 21:02:40 <noidd> and have 5000 roll-over minutes
Jan 18 21:02:55 <noidd> so i'm the perfect person to test ip over voice :-P
Jan 18 21:06:27 <kaboofa> heh
Jan 18 21:16:01 <spikebik1> wow crazyness
Jan 18 21:16:19 <leventhal> I used to use data over TDMA voice
Jan 18 21:16:24 <leventhal> 800 bytes/second on a good day
Jan 18 21:17:54 <kaboofa> D:
Jan 18 21:18:12 <leventhal> But it was free!
Jan 18 21:18:32 <xorAxAx> leventhal: which device modulated it?
Jan 18 21:18:59 <leventhal> Nokia 3360
Jan 18 21:19:12 <xorAxAx> ozamosi: do you know Lapinlahden linnut?
Jan 18 21:19:18 <xorAxAx> leventhal: it can do data over voice?
Jan 18 21:19:28 <leventhal> Yeah.. it acted as an IRDA modem
Jan 18 21:19:29 <ozamosi> xorAxAx: nope
Jan 18 21:19:39 <leventhal> Synced at a max of 9600
Jan 18 21:19:43 <xorAxAx> ozamosi: try them :)
Jan 18 21:20:01 <leventhal> Not bad for a free phone I got five years ago
Jan 18 21:20:49 <xorAxAx> leventhal: on GSM, you have CSD
Jan 18 21:20:55 <ozamosi> xorAxAx: they're not on last.fm :(
Jan 18 21:20:59 <xorAxAx> thats guaranteed 9600
Jan 18 21:21:20 <leventhal> Ah.. so that's one way of me getting free IM
Jan 18 21:21:25 <leventhal> Cool
Jan 18 21:22:51 <spikebik1> heh
Jan 18 21:22:55 <spikebik1> nslu2
Jan 18 21:23:16 <xorAxAx> but CSD is expensive usually
Jan 18 21:23:16 <spikebik1> some rotc dufus showed up outside my door with an assault rifle replica
Jan 18 21:23:24 <kaboofa> :o
Jan 18 21:23:34 * MenZa sniggers
Jan 18 21:24:10 <|Melkman|> xorAxAx: isn't it the same cost a voice ? ie per time unit
Jan 18 21:24:29 <xorAxAx> |Melkman|: no, more expensive
Jan 18 21:24:41 <xorAxAx> because CSD uses different infrastructure than normal voice calls
Jan 18 21:24:53 <xorAxAx> CSD transfers the data digitally from the handset to the provider
Jan 18 21:25:00 <xorAxAx> and the provider provides a simple modem
Jan 18 21:25:20 <xorAxAx> in germany, its usually 29 ct./ min.
Jan 18 21:25:33 <xorAxAx> except for special wap flatrates
Jan 18 21:25:47 <PirateHead> Announcement tomorrow, wee.
Jan 18 21:26:37 <xorAxAx> who says that? :)
Jan 18 21:26:40 <xorAxAx> it says friday
Jan 18 21:26:45 <spikebik1> tomorrow what time?
Jan 18 21:26:49 <xorAxAx> there will be numerous fridays in this year
Jan 18 21:26:55 <thedaniel> it's 6am friday in taiwan
Jan 18 21:27:02 <xorAxAx> it doesnt say "next friday" :)
Jan 18 21:27:19 <thedaniel> I DEMAND ANNOUNCEMENT
Jan 18 21:27:23 <thedaniel> ha
Jan 18 21:27:25 <[g2]> lol
Jan 18 22:30:22 <buz> mhh it is now friday according to GMT+1 ;)
Jan 18 22:31:42 <xorAxAx> it has been friday for hours
Jan 18 22:31:46 <xorAxAx> according to taiwanese time
Jan 18 22:32:03 <dduardo> Can the Neo act as voice/fax modem? Or is this interface not exposed due to regulation?
Jan 18 22:32:12 <xorAxAx> but there are more than 45 fridays left this year
Jan 18 22:33:04 <ozamosi> I have an announcement to make, if that works for you. My announcement is this: the "real" announcement hasn't yet happened, but it probably will.
Jan 18 22:33:30 <bhima> Are there any actual, significant regulations about which phone interfaces can be exposed?
Jan 18 22:33:56 <rwhitby> xorAxAx: It's 9:30am Friday here - I've been doing Friday work for an hour.
Jan 18 22:34:00 <whitedrought> um, in which country? they've all got different regulations
Jan 18 22:34:10 <dduardo> i'm in the US
Jan 18 22:34:22 <xorAxAx> rwhitby: right, so it has been friday for nearly 10 hours according to buz standards :)
Jan 18 22:34:33 <bhima> whitedrought: I know, I know. I was figuring I'd ask the general quesiton and let anbody who knew anything say what they knew.
Jan 18 22:34:50 <dduardo> Instead of speaking in to the mic, I can output the audio data from software?
Jan 18 22:34:56 <buz> xorAxAx: actually, only about 5min
Jan 18 22:35:05 <buz> its GMT+1, not +10
Jan 18 22:35:20 <xorAxAx> buz: i am talking about rwhitby and your definition of friday
Jan 18 22:35:41 <buz> ah right, yes somewhere it's been friday for 11 hours
Jan 18 22:36:29 <rwhitby> xorAxAx: it's been Friday for almost 13 hours in Chatham Island.
Jan 18 22:36:40 <rwhitby> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=63
Jan 18 22:37:09 <dduardo> I guess no one knows?
Jan 18 22:37:17 <apapia> what's the word?  when can i get my hands on an openmoko phone?
Jan 18 22:37:37 <rwhitby> (their GMT+13:45 timezone is even weirder than my GMT+10:30
Jan 18 22:37:53 <ozamosi> You guys don't know anything. I'm t GMT+1, and it's not friday for another 6 hours... Don't you ever read TV charts (or whatever it's called)? They don't change day untill 06:00
Jan 18 22:38:02 <ozamosi> s/t/at/
Jan 18 22:38:02 <apt> ozamosi meant: You guys don'at know anything. I'm t GMT+1, and it's not friday for another 6 hours... Don't you ever read TV charts (or whatever it's called)? They don't change day untill 06:00
Jan 18 22:38:30 <ozamosi> No, apt, you're wrong... Wrong t :)
Jan 18 22:38:58 <benJIman> Friday in GMT in 50mins
Jan 18 22:39:10 <benJIman> and London is the centre of the world.
Jan 18 22:39:26 * ozamosi gets a suddent urge to play arund with apt and regexes, but decides not to spam the channel.
Jan 18 22:40:14 <buz> unmaking the iphone http://appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2415
Jan 18 22:40:48 <dduardo> I wonder how long it will take the Neo to compile gentoo from stage 1?
Jan 18 22:41:35 <dduardo> a week perhap, maybe more
Jan 18 22:41:44 <bhima> dduardo: depends on whether you immerse it in liquid helium and overclock it.
Jan 18 22:45:11 <Psi> hehe
Jan 18 22:49:44 <dduardo> Google Phone: http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/18/the-google-switch-an-iphone-killer/
Jan 18 22:50:10 <thedaniel> speaking of the phone, my friend micki: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/announcements/boring-but-important-stuff-229752.php
Jan 18 22:51:04 <Psi> lol
Jan 18 22:51:49 <bhima> I doubt that Google is doing this.
Jan 18 22:52:12 <Psi> that google phone looks abit too thin to be real
Jan 18 22:52:27 <Psi> maybe its a prototype of something that might make in the future
Jan 18 22:52:30 <thedaniel> do not underestimate the might and power of samsung ;)
Jan 18 22:52:32 <Psi> *they
Jan 18 22:52:45 <bhima> I've never seen a device with such a thin border.
Jan 18 22:52:47 <ozamosi> bhima: I doubt that Google is doing 99% of what the rumors say they do
Jan 18 22:53:01 <bhima> I'd like to. :)
Jan 18 22:53:09 <dduardo> Is that like the iPhone Pecano?
Jan 18 22:53:18 <dduardo> ~ over the n of course
Jan 18 22:53:45 <dduardo> I'm waiting for apple to come out with the iPhone Invisa
Jan 18 22:53:54 <dduardo> That would be the ultimate phone
Jan 18 22:53:59 <thedaniel> one. billion. songs.
Jan 18 22:54:13 <bhima> There aren't 1 billion good songs.
Jan 18 22:54:33 <dduardo> and don't forget 1 frajillion contacts
Jan 18 22:55:02 <apapia> i'm pretty sure there are only 6 billion possible contacts
Jan 18 22:55:02 <bhima> It only needs storage for 10b contacts.
Jan 18 22:55:10 <apapia> unless SETI hits it big
Jan 18 22:55:24 <bhima> Is it pre-loaded?
Jan 18 22:55:31 <Psi> wonder how long it will take before someone creates a album flipthrough app for the neo, (like the iphone thing)
Jan 18 22:55:34 <bhima> I hope they have some good scrolling stuff.
Jan 18 22:55:49 <apapia> pre-loaded with the contact information of the entire human race
Jan 18 22:55:52 <apapia> i like that idea
Jan 18 22:56:03 <cbpage> the display also looks very ungoogle
Jan 18 22:56:05 <apapia> that sounds like a Google phone to me
Jan 18 22:56:19 <bhima> "It's been nearly ready for two years, we just needed to figure out how you can scroll through all of the 6 billion pre-loaded contacts..."
Jan 18 22:56:33 <apapia> Google it
Jan 18 22:57:54 <bhima> Oooh. They have a quantum-computing device, with quantum storage. "Google, in your hand"
Jan 18 22:57:54 <dduardo> Bluetooth Brainwave cap?
Jan 18 22:58:01 <bhima> literally, _all_ of google in your hand.
Jan 18 22:58:15 <bhima> It doesn't have network capability.
Jan 18 22:58:19 <dduardo> LIke this: http://www.swissinfo.org/xobix_media/images/sri/2003/sriimg20030121_1579943_0.jpg
Jan 18 22:58:24 <dduardo> But with bluetooth
Jan 18 22:58:47 <dduardo> You don't even need to punch in numbers. Just think about who you want to call
Jan 18 22:59:05 <bhima> bah. lame. it's google.
Jan 18 22:59:10 <bhima> just think about what you want done.
Jan 18 22:59:53 <apapia> yeah, that way everyone in the google-verse can search my thoughts instantly, 24/7
Jan 18 23:00:11 <bhima> No, it doesn't have network storage.
Jan 18 23:00:15 <bhima> It's entirely local.
Jan 18 23:00:27 <bhima> It has all of google built-in.
Jan 18 23:00:38 <dduardo> Halographic Memory
Jan 18 23:00:43 <apapia> everything local, except for the government back door
Jan 18 23:01:41 <dduardo> What I really want on the Neo is a software voice modulator
Jan 18 23:02:35 <apapia> ohh that'd be cool
Jan 18 23:02:43 <apapia> should be fairly easy
Jan 18 23:02:49 <bhima> voice modulator?
Jan 18 23:02:58 <bhima> You mean something to disguise voice? or synthesize? or...?
Jan 18 23:03:04 <apapia> could have different voices you could choose from
Jan 18 23:03:30 <dduardo> Depending on your mood you could take different personas
Jan 18 23:03:31 <apapia> like Arnold Scharwzenager
Jan 18 23:03:43 <dduardo> Ah, a soundboard
Jan 18 23:03:47 <bhima> Can it break your grammar too?
Jan 18 23:03:52 <apapia> haha
Jan 18 23:04:01 <dduardo> Built in Stewie Griffin soundboard
Jan 18 23:04:08 <bhima> Maybe figure out word segmentation, and rearrange words.
Jan 18 23:04:18 <apapia> randomly?
Jan 18 23:04:22 <apapia> it could be done
Jan 18 23:04:37 <bhima> This is why I want an open source phone.
Jan 18 23:04:44 <bhima> Because nobody in their right midn would build the phone I want.
Jan 18 23:04:44 <apapia> clearly
Jan 18 23:05:13 <dduardo> This gets back to my orignal question: Is this type of inteface exposed in the GSM module?
Jan 18 23:05:18 <bhima> I only jsut bought an E70, though, and I need to get an iPhone. hrm.
Jan 18 23:05:41 <dduardo> You would need write access to the audio data stream
Jan 18 23:05:57 <dduardo> I don't know if it is legally allowed
Jan 18 23:06:08 <bhima> dduardo: legally allowed where?
Jan 18 23:06:18 <dduardo> US, UK, etc
Jan 18 23:06:40 <dduardo> I'm sure the FCC wouldn't be too happy about this
Jan 18 23:06:42 * koen chimes in with "OMG WIFI!!!!"
Jan 18 23:06:52 <loft306> :)
Jan 18 23:06:55 <dduardo> Or the US Government
Jan 18 23:06:58 <bhima> the FCC wouldn't be happy if you could play audio from /dev/audio ?
Jan 18 23:07:03 <bhima> to the phone/
Jan 18 23:07:13 <bhima> You can get series60 apps that do answering machines.
Jan 18 23:07:20 <bhima> and add background noise to your calls.
Jan 18 23:08:09 <bhima> "no, really, I'm busy waiting in traffic, honest"
Jan 18 23:08:09 <dduardo> Well, ok, then if that is the case then that is great
Jan 18 23:08:09 <apapia> dude that'd be cool too
Jan 18 23:08:09 <dduardo> Its
Jan 18 23:08:09 <apapia> hey guys, i'm calling from the Superbowl!
Jan 18 23:08:09 <bhima> I just can't see any reason why the law would state "no audio processing is allowed"
Jan 18 23:08:17 <bhima> Many BT headsets do DSP already.
Jan 18 23:08:48 <apapia> yeah, that's the entire reason i want a linux phone, so i can do stuff to /dev/audio
Jan 18 23:08:57 <bhima> I want to do stuff with caller ID.
Jan 18 23:08:59 <bhima> And messaging.
Jan 18 23:09:05 <bhima> and availability.
Jan 18 23:09:21 <apapia> there are a ton of possibilities
Jan 18 23:10:08 <bhima> I want to know if yiou want to receive a call or not.
Jan 18 23:10:13 <apapia> you think the open source community can make some killer apps that actually get openMoko to the level of the iPhone?
Jan 18 23:10:23 <bhima> apapia: No.
Jan 18 23:10:34 <apapia> yeah, i don't think so either
Jan 18 23:10:38 <dduardo> ALICE + festival: Your phone talks for you
Jan 18 23:10:40 <apapia> oh well, i'll have one
Jan 18 23:10:56 <bhima> I think that the open source community can make apps that are insanely cool and aren't available on he iPhone.
Jan 18 23:11:05 <dduardo> Alice generates the texts and you have festival to the text-to-speech
Jan 18 23:11:19 <apapia> that's cool
Jan 18 23:11:30 <bhima> ALICE?
Jan 18 23:11:31 <apapia> so you call my phone and have a conversation with a computer
Jan 18 23:11:44 <dduardo> http://www.alicebot.org/
Jan 18 23:11:46 <bhima> well, see, why even call my phone?
Jan 18 23:11:52 <bhima> Call my inbound VoIP number.
Jan 18 23:11:55 <apapia> if only my phone could pass the Turing test
Jan 18 23:12:02 <bhima> Once ALICE decides to let you through, it opens up the channel.
Jan 18 23:12:41 <apapia> that's a good thought, have a computer talk to the caller to verify it's not talking to a computer
Jan 18 23:12:42 <apapia> haha
Jan 18 23:13:09 <dduardo> You have the phone make sure the call is urgent. Otherwise It asks you to leave a message
Jan 18 23:13:37 <dduardo> Like a portable secretary
Jan 18 23:15:00 <apapia> nice
Jan 18 23:15:05 * LaF0rge seems to be hunting gcc bugs rather than openmoko bugs :(
Jan 18 23:15:06 <dduardo> I would also like to be able to receive and send faxes
Jan 18 23:15:27 <apapia> like your phone reads you the fax?
Jan 18 23:15:34 <dduardo> For example, if i'm on the road and need to ok a form I should be able to recieve a fax, sign it with the styus and send it back.
Jan 18 23:15:40 <apapia> and you dictate a fax?
Jan 18 23:16:00 <apapia> ok, or just a digital document
Jan 18 23:16:28 <dduardo> Dictating a fax would be tricking. You would need to OCR the thing first
Jan 18 23:17:07 <dduardo> Although Google did opensource tesseract, which is an OCR program
Jan 18 23:17:20 <bhima> What if I have my computer do the calling, to verify that it gets to a person and not an answering machine?
Jan 18 23:17:28 <bhima> And you ahve a computer screening, making sure it's a person and not a computer?
Jan 18 23:18:36 <koen> tesseract: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?action=details&pnm=tesseract
Jan 18 23:18:42 <dduardo> That would be tricky. There are too many posibilties
Jan 18 23:18:54 <koen> so it's available for the neo as well
Jan 18 23:19:10 <dduardo> It also on sourceforge
Jan 18 23:19:46 <koen> the packaged version for arm isn't
Jan 18 23:19:49 <koen> only the source
Jan 18 23:20:31 <dduardo> yeah, the source is platform independent
Jan 18 23:22:11 * stefan_schmidt offers LaF0rge a big fat hammer for the bugs.
Jan 18 23:22:47 <dduardo> I wonder what data speed you could get if you simulated a accoustic coupler in software on the Neo.
Jan 18 23:23:12 <dduardo> 20kb perhaps
Jan 18 23:23:55 <bhima> I don't think you can do that.
Jan 18 23:24:04 <bhima> NO faster than 1200bps to a standard modem, iirc.
Jan 18 23:24:21 <bhima> the GSM codec blows away the phase information, which is used for 2400bps and higher modems.
Jan 18 23:25:46 <dduardo> That's still good enough to do text messaging between two neos
Jan 18 23:26:02 <bhima> Why not use GPRS...?
Jan 18 23:26:15 <dduardo> Doesn't that cost extra?
Jan 18 23:26:28 <bhima> depends on what you have, plan-wise.
Jan 18 23:26:37 <bhima> I have an unlimited plan.
Jan 18 23:26:40 <dduardo> If you have two neos on the same network you get unlimited minutes
Jan 18 23:27:05 <bhima> That depends on your network, too.
Jan 18 23:27:06 <dduardo> SMS and all the data stuff is extra
Jan 18 23:27:12 <bhima> When I was in Germany, I didn't get that.
Jan 18 23:27:29 <dduardo> well the US blows in terms of cellular service
Jan 18 23:27:40 <thedaniel> but the US rocks in terms of cheap cellular data
Jan 18 23:28:00 <dduardo> I wish there was some sort of net neutrallity with cellular networks
Jan 18 23:28:00 <bhima> US cellular service is damned cheap compared to EU.
Jan 18 23:28:34 <dduardo> I shouldn't matter if it is voice, text, data extra
Jan 18 23:28:47 <bhima> dduardo: waht do you mean?
Jan 18 23:29:14 <dduardo> For example, right now you don't pay extra for sending IMs over the internet
Jan 18 23:29:21 <dduardo> Or doing VOIP
Jan 18 23:29:26 <dduardo> or whatever
Jan 18 23:29:34 <dduardo> That's what net neutrality means
Jan 18 23:29:40 <dduardo> Everything is equal
Jan 18 23:29:56 <dduardo> In the cellular business everything is divided to get the most money out of the customers
Jan 18 23:30:06 <dduardo> Everything is extra
Jan 18 23:30:16 <bhima> You can do IM over GPRS for the same rates as other GPRS.
Jan 18 23:30:32 <bhima> You can do VoIP over GPRS for the same rate as any other data service.
Jan 18 23:30:58 <bhima> How do you compare minutes of voice vs. megabytes of data?
Jan 18 23:31:23 <koen> you don't, it's a different medium
Jan 18 23:31:36 <koen> which shoots down the net neutrality argument
Jan 18 23:31:50 <koen> people don't notice since it's all done from the same phone
Jan 18 23:32:01 <dduardo> So why don't they kill the voice plan and leave GPRS?
Jan 18 23:32:10 <koen> latency
Jan 18 23:32:22 <koen> and QOS type of stuff
Jan 18 23:33:04 <bhima> efficiency is an issue as well. fixed allocation is probably more efficienct.
Jan 18 23:33:09 <koen> and the average cell tower can handle ~100 consecutive calls, but only 5 gprs channels
Jan 18 23:34:45 <thedaniel> yeah, people have to stop trying to equate the cell networks with normal IP networks
Jan 18 23:34:52 <koen> drat
Jan 18 23:35:03 <koen> I just realised I'll be on gprs for the next week
Jan 18 23:35:14 <bhima> EDGE, at least?
Jan 18 23:35:29 <koen> and the small bandwidth I'll have will be wasted getting "OMG WIFI!!!" emails
Jan 18 23:35:34 <koen> bhima: right, EDGE
Jan 18 23:35:47 <bhima> OMG WIFI?
Jan 18 23:36:00 <koen> the last ~100 emails to the list
Jan 18 23:36:05 <LaF0rge> oh my goodness.
Jan 18 23:36:31 <koen> or "FIC is teh ev1l for not including w1f1"
Jan 18 23:36:32 <LaF0rge> looks like cache corruption. 
Jan 18 23:36:44 <stefan_schmidt> ouch
Jan 18 23:36:55 <koen> LaF0rge: there was a thread about cache corruption on L-A-K
Jan 18 23:37:23 <LaF0rge> the instruction in memory (read via jtag) is correct. when executed in jtag single step, it jumps at a different location than the jump is targetted!
Jan 18 23:37:30 <bhima> "Why does nobody realize that I am right, and I know what the killer app is?"
Jan 18 23:37:37 <bhima> Perhaps because it's not the killer app you think it is?
Jan 18 23:37:54 <koen> LaF0rge: ah, that looks different from http://rpsys.net/openzaurus/patches/xscale_cache_workaround-r1.patch
Jan 18 23:38:53 <LaF0rge> koen: we don't have xscale
Jan 18 23:39:05 <stefan_schmidt> hmm, that sounds odd
Jan 18 23:39:15 <koen> LaF0rge: it affect more than xscale
Jan 18 23:39:49 <LaF0rge> mh.
Jan 18 23:39:53 <koen> http://rpsys.net/openzaurus/patches/archive/xscale_cache_workaround-r0.patch only has xscale, but RMK said it affected more SoCs
Jan 18 23:40:43 <meyerm_> koen: Shall I start another thread whining for EDGE? *eg* The WiFi one is getting boring ;-)
Jan 18 23:40:58 <cbpage> lol
Jan 18 23:41:18 <koen> meyerm_: and after that for WCDMA and after that for HSDPA
Jan 18 23:41:29 <cbpage> and then us-frequency hsdpa
Jan 18 23:41:34 <dduardo> $20 bucks for 5MB at cingular. Yuck
Jan 18 23:41:46 <bhima> You cang et unlimited for $20 at cingular.
Jan 18 23:41:52 <meyerm_> koen: Yeah, but be more slow! Let's enjoy each one after another :D
Jan 18 23:42:00 <dduardo> unlimited is $45
Jan 18 23:42:21 <bhima> unlimited laptop, or unlimited phone?
Jan 18 23:42:46 <dduardo> PDA
Jan 18 23:43:00 <dduardo> laptop unlimited is $80
Jan 18 23:43:33 <bhima> Smartphone unlimited is $19.99
Jan 18 23:43:36 <cbpage> how do they know the difference?
Jan 18 23:43:52 <bhima> I don't know.
Jan 18 23:43:57 <bhima> I think they bitch at you if you use a lot.
Jan 18 23:44:22 <koen> $0.0002/MB
Jan 18 23:44:30 <dduardo> $ or cents?
Jan 18 23:44:37 <bhima> I heard a great phone call with verizon on that issue. :)
Jan 18 23:44:57 <dduardo> I did too. From Digg
Jan 18 23:45:11 <TiredMac> good n8 all
Jan 18 23:51:49 <dduardo> If the neo isn't going to have wifi, it should atleast have an RJ45 port. That way I can drag around an ethernet cable where ever I go and make free voip calls.
Jan 18 23:52:00 <dduardo> RJ45 for the Neo!
Jan 18 23:52:21 <dduardo> Or maybe an optical port
Jan 18 23:52:47 <dduardo> AC3 paththrough
Jan 18 23:52:50 <bhima> Yeah, wired ethernet would be so great on a cellphone! :)
Jan 18 23:53:13 <dduardo> It would be the ultimate portable audio player
Jan 18 23:53:26 <dduardo> I would just need to carry around my 5.1 surround sound speakers
Jan 18 23:54:26 <bhima> You can get surround sound headphones. :)
Jan 18 23:55:02 <dduardo> I'll be on a train, pull out my Neo, a audio receiver and a 5.1 speaker set and start blasting the music.
Jan 18 23:55:06 <Ycros> surround sound headphones generally sound crap
Jan 18 23:55:11 <dduardo> That's what I call portability
Jan 18 23:55:25 <dduardo> Beat that Mr. Jobs
Jan 18 23:55:27 <Ycros> virtualisation with good headphones is often better
Jan 18 23:55:54 <ozamosi> dduardo: bah... I want a 3.5 inch plug in my head. speakers are crap :P
Jan 18 23:56:34 <bhima> Why does this speech synthesis system seem to have more than one person's voice recorded?
Jan 18 23:56:47 <dduardo> How about an accelerometer inside the Neo. Instead of punching in numbers, you write the number in the air
Jan 18 23:57:21 <Agrajag-> haha
Jan 18 23:57:28 <dduardo> Or you shake the device to shuffle the songs
Jan 18 23:57:40 <Agrajag-> people already look silly enough talking into a little thing they hold up to their ear
Jan 18 23:57:47 <koen> dduardo: it has bluetooth, so you can use a wii-mote for that :)
Jan 18 23:58:08 <bhima> koen: ooh, great idea!
Jan 18 23:58:10 <dduardo> Yeah, I would like to see Wii Sports Tennis ported to the Neo
Jan 18 23:58:46 <koen> bhima: saves a 'F': "OMG WII" ;)
Jan 18 23:59:38 <dduardo> Now cellular users can be more obnoxious then ever. Not only do they talk really loud, but they are swing the phone all over the place.
Jan 19 00:00:32 <dduardo> Time to create a mini sensor bar for the Neo.
Jan 19 00:00:51 <dduardo> Or maybe it should be built in!
Jan 19 00:01:13 <bhima> The accelerometers are separate from the sensor bar.
Jan 19 00:01:41 <dduardo> I know
Jan 19 00:02:47 <dduardo> All this talk is silly though. What really after is a voice modulator.
Jan 19 00:03:10 <bhima> What I"m really after is dinner.
Jan 19 00:03:13 * bhima &
Jan 19 00:04:16 <dduardo> Every criminal will want the Neo if it had a voice mdoulator
Jan 19 00:04:40 <bhima> Criminals care that much about voice modulators?
Jan 19 00:05:06 <bhima> Then why don't I see inline handfree kit ones all over the place?
Jan 19 00:05:11 <dduardo> "I've got your kid, drop off the suitcase of money behind the dumpster"
Jan 19 00:05:39 <koen> of course they want the neo
Jan 19 00:05:54 <koen> "drop it of at ehm... 52,4343N 8.4343E"
Jan 19 00:05:57 <dduardo> That would be a great prank for family members too
Jan 19 00:06:53 <dduardo> Is AGPS free or do you need to play a usage fee for that too?
Jan 19 00:07:09 <koen> it is said to be free
Jan 19 00:07:19 <spikebik1> it is?
Jan 19 00:07:38 <spikebik1> seems silly to worry about it, you can just run it in gps mode
Jan 19 00:07:41 <koen> free as in beer, not speech
Jan 19 00:08:26 <dduardo> I want everything to be free as in beer. That's one of the reasons for wanting wifi
Jan 19 00:09:34 <Psi> maybe you should climb up a nearby sky scraper and attach a 100W blue tooth AP :P
Jan 19 00:09:37 <Psi> hehe
Jan 19 00:11:45 <dduardo> How exactly is the Neo being marketed? It seems as if it would appeal to a very small segment of the cell community at this point.
Jan 19 00:13:30 <dduardo> what would make this phone appeal to the ordinary joe?
Jan 19 00:14:18 <dduardo> Perhaps a cheese grater at the end of the Neo?
Jan 19 00:14:23 <Psi> heh
Jan 19 00:14:44 <lamby> dduardo: sim-free, lots of neat apps will be available, good karma ^_^
Jan 19 00:15:20 <dduardo> Maybe a super powered vibrator for personal massage
Jan 19 00:15:45 <Psi> hehe, does the phone have a vibrator? anyone know
Jan 19 00:15:46 <ozamosi> dduardo: if the open source community buys into the platform, it will be quite good, i think.
Jan 19 00:16:34 <dduardo> Technically yes it will be quite good.
Jan 19 00:16:42 <dduardo> Just like Linux
Jan 19 00:16:55 <ozamosi> I don't think it should be marketed to "normal" users at all in the begining. Not untill the geeks have been playing with it for a while, to make neat stuff possible.
Jan 19 00:17:14 <dduardo> But it doesn't make the device look nice. Linux is quite ugly if you ask me
Jan 19 00:17:14 <Psi> i agree
Jan 19 00:17:27 <lamby> quite a few people who i've spoken to have said "I will get it when it gets X" (where X is invariably Wifi).. but this is quite dangerous as they aren't going to produce another one if nobody buys the first!
Jan 19 00:17:29 <dduardo> Even though I use it everyday
Jan 19 00:18:34 <ozamosi> dduardo: gnome was HORRIBLE a year or two ago, but it's MUCH nicer nowadays. Quite soon, it will rock hard.
Jan 19 00:18:36 * koen has read http://0pointer.de/public/pulseaudio-presentation-lca2007.pdf
Jan 19 00:18:37 <dduardo> yes, there is definitely a fine line between features
Jan 19 00:19:18 <dduardo> and what is feasible for a first gen device
Jan 19 00:19:49 <dduardo> ozamosi, i'm quite the minimilist. I use fvwm
Jan 19 00:19:59 <ozamosi> dduardo: that's why it's ugly ;)
Jan 19 00:20:18 <ozamosi> (yes, I've used fvwm a year or so - I know what it can do)
Jan 19 00:21:08 <dduardo> actually want I'm talking more about is application UI design
Jan 19 00:21:30 <ozamosi> Well, what applications? Gnome ones?
Jan 19 00:21:30 <dduardo> I could care less about the window manager, that's why I opt for minimal
Jan 19 00:21:54 <dduardo> gnome, kde, they all stink
Jan 19 00:22:11 <ozamosi> I have to disagre...
Jan 19 00:22:48 <ozamosi> But I doubt I'll be able to prove that you are wrong, though :)
Jan 19 00:22:57 <dduardo> who came up with the vertical tabs in kde?
Jan 19 00:23:07 <dduardo> they are difficult to read
Jan 19 00:24:16 <dduardo> There is also a lack of continuity between GTK and QT apps
Jan 19 00:24:41 <dduardo> uniformity*
Jan 19 00:25:01 <ozamosi> Well, KDE is all about giving the user the ability to make any choices they want - I'm sure someone likes vertical tabs :)
Jan 19 00:26:25 <ozamosi> Under KDE, you can choose a GTK theme that renders the widgets through Qt, and then you'll not be able to visually see any difference. That still won't make the menues consistent, of course.
Jan 19 00:27:51 <dduardo> Yeah, its the little things the prevent Linux from really taking off in the desktop market.
Jan 19 00:28:48 <dduardo> Personally though, I prefer GTK. I don't think I have a single QT app installed
Jan 19 00:29:10 <dduardo> I find QT apps to be very fragile
Jan 19 00:29:19 <dduardo> Perhaps it's all the kde dependency
Jan 19 01:01:37 <Zer0Her0> sooo i think i'll beat a dead horse...
Jan 19 01:01:40 <Zer0Her0> is it friday yet?
Jan 19 01:03:43 <rwhitby> has been here, for over 12 hours.
Jan 19 01:04:17 <rwhitby> but Friday doesn't finish until 23:59, hawaiian time.
Jan 19 01:09:45 <thedaniel> Zer0Her0: it's like 10am in taiwan
Jan 19 01:09:49 <thedaniel> let their morning coffee kick in
Jan 19 01:10:02 <thedaniel> maybe go install the OE toolchain
Jan 19 01:10:07 <thedaniel> fly a kite
Jan 19 01:10:10 <thedaniel> have some sandwiches and tea
Jan 19 01:11:20 * Zer0Her0 starts calling their offices
Jan 19 01:11:28 <Zer0Her0> :-D
Jan 19 01:13:15 <thedaniel> or that yeah
Jan 19 01:15:55 * aevin gets some sleep.
Jan 19 01:20:35 <spikebik1> so what timezone is the friday announcement in? ;-)
Jan 19 01:22:10 <xkr47> latest possible ;)
Jan 19 01:24:33 <xkr47> hehe, when you order a neo, do you give your address in gps coordinates ?-D
Jan 19 01:24:39 <xkr47> "can't go wrong"
Jan 19 01:27:13 <ozamosi> I know of people who have to do that to get deliveries...
Jan 19 01:27:28 <xkr47> :DD
Jan 19 01:30:22 <xkr47> now we can all be pizza delivery boys when we get our neo :)
Jan 19 01:31:04 <xkr47> "Pizza delivery for U R Thesuck!"
Jan 19 01:31:21 * xkr47 refers to futurama :)
Jan 19 01:32:32 <thedaniel> ha, i thought of Hiro Protagonist
Jan 19 01:32:35 <thedaniel> the deliverator
Jan 19 01:32:57 <Zer0Her0> yea Hiro
Jan 19 01:33:04 <xkr47> :)
Jan 19 01:36:28 <Zer0Her0> i need to re-read snow crash now
Jan 19 01:39:07 <thedaniel> does anyone in this chan know much about OSS gps applications?
Jan 19 01:39:33 <thedaniel> a quick google makes me think qpegps.sourceforge.net would work
Jan 19 01:39:54 <xkr47> sounds nice
Jan 19 01:40:23 <xkr47> I wonder if the userspace gps software of neo supports some common GPS api
Jan 19 01:41:23 <thedaniel> NMEA i would home
Jan 19 01:41:25 <thedaniel> *hope
Jan 19 01:41:45 <thedaniel> i am pretty sure most OSS gps apps are made to work by getting NMEA data over serial
Jan 19 01:41:48 <thedaniel> http://home.wi.rr.com/n9uur/nmea.html
Jan 19 01:41:53 <xkr47> it would be nice if people updated the unofficial wiki with nice stuff that could be tried on neo
Jan 19 01:41:56 <xkr47> :)
Jan 19 01:42:08 <thedaniel> what is the unofficial wiki?
Jan 19 01:42:41 <xkr47> a sec
Jan 19 01:43:10 <xkr47> http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/
Jan 19 01:44:17 <Agrajag-> thedaniel: i've used gpsman with my garmin gps. it does everything i want. has a sucky interface though
Jan 19 01:46:56 <thedaniel> man this is the worst wiki i have ever seen
Jan 19 01:47:01 <thedaniel> wtf is this page
Jan 19 01:47:01 <thedaniel> http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Ideas?highlight=%28OpenMoko%2FIdeas%29
Jan 19 01:47:05 <thedaniel> i mean, i know wtf it is
Jan 19 01:47:13 <thedaniel> but that's not so useful
Jan 19 01:47:44 <xkr47> well
Jan 19 01:49:07 <alphaone> I would really like to see an OS route planner with GPS support
Jan 19 01:49:38 <alphaone> But the maps are the problem (at least in germany)
Jan 19 01:49:48 <xkr47> I don't have a car so I'll be integrating it with our local public transportation route planner
Jan 19 01:50:22 <alphaone> That's nice, too
Jan 19 01:50:47 <xkr47> you can choose from a map where you are currently so they use map coordinates.. I just need to go to 4 corners of that map and then convert coordinates :)
Jan 19 01:51:09 <xkr47> or maybe some few places is enough
Jan 19 01:51:28 <alphaone> :-)
Jan 19 01:59:52 <LittleIdiot> uhm, i've posted a new idea... but accidently not as a subpage (http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/DataLinkViaGsmVoiceConnection)
Jan 19 02:00:07 <Agrajag-> it'd be hard getting street lat/lon data though
Jan 19 02:02:43 <xkr47> LittleIdiot, well it ended up on the Ideas page list still
Jan 19 02:03:29 <LittleIdiot> because i added @page@, but i can't change its name once it's created
Jan 19 02:03:47 <xkr47> I think it's fine :)
Jan 19 02:07:05 <LittleIdiot> does the hardware platform used have some unused ports i may use for bitbanging with a microcontroller? ;)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jan 19 02:59:58 2007