**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jan 20 02:59:57 2007 Jan 20 03:01:02 alpha asm rules Jan 20 03:03:50 Alpha's where cool but they are dead now :( Jan 20 03:03:58 MIPS are cool Jan 20 03:54:46 Hey folks! Jan 20 03:54:56 Did I, uh, miss any announcements? Jan 20 03:55:12 nope Jan 20 03:55:35 bummer Jan 20 03:56:18 They have 1:30min left Jan 20 03:56:41 But I think they have fucked everyone off Jan 20 03:57:02 Its the point... Just say a data that you mean Jan 20 03:57:30 %s/Its/What's/ Jan 20 03:57:42 maybe the announcement includes the whole SDK or something? Jan 20 03:58:10 who knows Jan 20 03:58:14 so we are still waiting? Jan 20 03:58:48 I hope so, because I have some ideas floating around Jan 20 03:58:50 No, I am playing with my SPARC Workstation Jan 20 03:58:53 cld2: Suppose Jan 20 03:59:13 Although I wouldnt hold your breath for an announcement Jan 20 03:59:20 :) what are you running on this sparc? Jan 20 03:59:31 I guess it WOULD be kind of amusing if they waited until the last minute. Jan 20 03:59:37 Maybe there's a ball to drop or something. Jan 20 03:59:47 haha, at 4 seconds to go. bam refreshed. Jan 20 04:02:01 yea right Jan 20 04:02:13 They would not want to pay for the traffic Jan 20 04:02:21 rwhitby: do you happen to know why an rsync to the nslu2 running over dropbear might hang when the transfer is complete, when authentication is done with public keys? Jan 20 04:02:36 I run my Desktop on a Sun Blade 2000 Jan 20 04:02:48 When folks were noting that they didn't say WHICH Friday - well, it was funny at the time. Jan 20 04:02:55 Solaris Express Jan 20 04:04:32 ZFS is wicked ! Jan 20 04:04:41 indeed it is. Jan 20 04:04:58 ZFS and Dtrace I think make solaris a contender again. Jan 20 04:05:22 Yes Jan 20 04:05:36 oh and zones. zones are pretty freaking sweet Jan 20 04:05:46 www.gnusolaris.org/ I think this project is going to kick off soon... Jan 20 04:07:03 wow, what a Frankenstein, I like it :) thats the thing I fell solaris is missing is something like apt Jan 20 04:07:41 Yes it stopes it being used on the Desktop Jan 20 04:07:49 But that takes the best of both Jan 20 04:08:01 and its kind of annoying from a server standpoint Jan 20 04:08:30 Solaris ? Jan 20 04:08:30 yeah, solairs, with no apt type deal Jan 20 04:09:03 no... good admin's should always review patchs before then apply them system wide Jan 20 04:09:29 edwardocallaghan: I agree, but im talking about software not patches. Jan 20 04:10:29 Well I had some problems working out how to setup a simple Apache/MySQL/PHP server Jan 20 04:10:38 Until I found coolstacks Jan 20 04:10:44 blah, tv time. maybe next friday? Jan 20 04:10:49 yeah coolstacks is nice. Jan 20 04:10:50 But they need more docs to go with them Jan 20 04:11:18 lol Jan 20 04:11:27 Going to bed now Jan 20 04:11:41 Getting use to Australia times Jan 20 04:12:34 Good night Jan 20 04:12:48 See you next Friday maybe :p Jan 20 04:17:16 still no announcement? Jan 20 04:17:24 topic not changed, no announcemenet? well still about 1.2h left ;-) Jan 20 04:18:45 vaporphone? Jan 20 04:18:58 hello, I'm new here, what's the "ann... today" meaning? Jan 20 04:20:31 phone certainly exists Jan 20 04:26:11 emfox: there should be announcement at mailing list at Friday Jan 20 04:26:25 about 1h left of it at CST time ;-) Jan 20 04:26:50 aloril: o, it's really a good news! Jan 20 04:27:46 thats if they release it Jan 20 04:27:56 emfox: I suspect it might be Havaiji time though or ... dunno, they were reportedly writing it yesterday and it needed review Jan 20 04:28:07 man, I can understand hardware/software delays Jan 20 04:28:17 but missing deadlines without so much as a peep sucks Jan 20 04:28:34 ah.. I don't think anything is released today/this week, only announcement that tells more info about what is planned Jan 20 04:28:37 even if it needs review they could say so Jan 20 04:29:10 spikebik1: I agree Jan 20 04:29:50 Makes it look very unprofessional Jan 20 04:30:03 about phone, topic says: "Neo1973 ETA for early access: February 2007" Jan 20 04:30:25 how about an announcement postponing the announcement? Jan 20 04:31:20 about announcement and review: that was said yesterday Jan 20 04:32:31 (or today CST) Jan 20 04:33:30 I think we will hear more when people awake Jan 20 04:37:21 thanksfully there are at least 7 other linux phones. Jan 20 04:37:36 I think this is only open one Jan 20 04:37:47 spikebik1: what's them? Jan 20 04:37:49 define open? Jan 20 04:38:00 motorola provides full kernel source Jan 20 04:38:07 devel tools Jan 20 04:38:09 source code available and freely hackable for almost everything Jan 20 04:38:18 source code for most of the user space stuff Jan 20 04:38:27 spikebik1: motorola doesn't provide source for interface AFAIK Jan 20 04:38:40 and works with a large base or existing applications (java) Jan 20 04:38:41 any roadmap yet? Jan 20 04:38:45 nope Jan 20 04:39:04 spikebik1: motorola provides source for apps? I though it doesn't Jan 20 04:43:10 libvcalendar-R564_G_12.02.31P-r1.tar.gz Jan 20 04:43:17 libobex_R564_G_12.00.35P-r2.tar.gz Jan 20 04:43:21 libjpeg-6b-4.0.0.0401382.src.rpm Jan 20 04:43:26 libicalendar-R564_G_12.02.31P-r2.tar.gz Jan 20 04:44:11 modem-gprsv-R532_G_11.00.38P-r2.tar.gz Jan 20 04:44:51 I have seen him update topic quite fast, but he is sleeping now, based on past I think it might be 5-10h before we know more about announcement (if its not already appeared in mailing list) Jan 20 04:45:56 btw.. I have no info myself, just lurker here ;-) Jan 20 04:46:21 * spikebik1 goes shopping for food Jan 20 04:46:33 it will be after friday central before I return Jan 20 04:46:36 I hold out 1% hope Jan 20 04:46:59 it would be very easy for someone to put up a hoax site right now and fool a whole lot of people ... Jan 20 04:49:23 that would be funny Jan 20 04:49:25 faster cpu Jan 20 04:49:29 camera Jan 20 04:49:32 wifi Jan 20 04:49:39 shipping in 2 weeks Jan 20 05:15:27 haha yeah Jan 20 05:15:54 worse: order now, please enter cc details ... Jan 20 05:16:04 not that I would be fooled ;-) Jan 20 05:16:24 i think most ppl on here would be smart enough to check for legit-ness before handing over cc details Jan 20 05:16:40 I think so too Jan 20 05:32:08 not anymore Friday CST Jan 20 05:32:36 now.. 3 more days to account for slow mail server ;-) Jan 20 05:32:53 heh Jan 20 05:33:34 Well... The best thing about "today" is that it moves through tim Jan 20 05:33:36 *time Jan 20 05:33:42 yeah Jan 20 05:38:30 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html Jan 20 05:38:32 its up Jan 20 05:39:11 finally Jan 20 05:39:25 great! Jan 20 05:40:38 fast mail server < 10 minutes late ;-) Jan 20 05:41:52 to its pushed back to march now Jan 20 05:45:20 er Jan 20 05:45:25 oh chanserv is being lame Jan 20 05:53:19 hmm.. everybody can get emulated Neo1973 February? ;-) Jan 20 05:53:45 dunnoo Jan 20 05:53:50 the mention source code Jan 20 05:53:54 they Jan 20 05:54:46 the wiki no workie 8-( Jan 20 05:55:17 i wonder if Phase-1 will be available to anyone who calls themself a developer, or if there will be requirement Jan 20 05:55:52 I suspect it will be demostrated developers Jan 20 05:56:00 i.e. contributers to mobile aps or OE Jan 20 05:56:04 so for masses it will available roughly same time as iPhone in Europe ;-) Jan 20 05:56:05 phase-1 defintly is Jan 20 05:56:12 sorry, phase 0 Jan 20 05:56:26 man, March ;-P Jan 20 05:56:34 I'm not even going to ask for the free phone Jan 20 05:56:41 I'm happy to pay for the phone in Feb :-) Jan 20 05:56:50 thats what i mean Jan 20 05:56:57 will anyone be able to buy it in march Jan 20 05:57:05 anyone Jan 20 05:57:14 at least that;s how I read it Jan 20 05:57:33 the march phase (phase1) says "We are specifically targeting open source community developers." Jan 20 05:57:42 I read it as being "March for devs". "September we call it a non-developer platform" Jan 20 05:57:46 im wondering what that means exactly Jan 20 05:58:02 Psi: ie - not everything will work fully in March Jan 20 05:58:12 yeah Jan 20 05:58:20 whereas, everything ill be working by Sept so it can be sold in stores around the world to the non-techs Jan 20 05:58:26 so you think anyone will be able to buy it in march if they want? Jan 20 05:58:30 Yes Jan 20 05:58:36 thats what im hoping Jan 20 05:59:16 yeah to begin with I expect it to boot, make and receive calls, and maybe a stupid address book Jan 20 05:59:39 I'm glad the websites are opening up soon tho Jan 20 05:59:40 is it going to come with a jre? Jan 20 05:59:48 it supposed to have a calendar too Jan 20 05:59:49 or is that too large? Jan 20 05:59:56 there is a jre in oe Jan 20 06:00:01 nice, thanks Jan 20 06:00:16 whether its installed by default I don't know but you can ipkg install it Jan 20 06:00:29 cool Jan 20 06:00:50 I haven't seen them mention java Jan 20 06:00:59 but no reason you couldn't add it Jan 20 06:01:02 it's GPL Jan 20 06:01:09 and there's plenty of ram Jan 20 06:01:26 http://planet.openmoko.org/ works Jan 20 06:02:02 yeah, I guess Java is one of things that won't be in March release (or at least not in February one), but most likely will be in September release Jan 20 06:02:22 I see we have a roadmap now :) Jan 20 06:03:10 seems http://projects.openmoko.org/ doesn't exists at all yet, but other non available ones exits for those who know passwords Jan 20 06:04:12 ANd doesn't for those that don't 8-( Jan 20 06:04:21 aloril: no worries, can be working on my idea in the meantime Jan 20 06:05:13 doc|home: yup, I hope to get something done before Feb source release and then finalize it Jan 20 06:07:59 summary: 2007-02-11 source available, official wiki open, etc.. and for select developers free phone Jan 20 06:08:12 2007-03-11 any developer can get phone with money Jan 20 06:08:25 2007-09-11 phone is released officially Jan 20 06:08:58 except we aren't 100% sure if "developer" means anyone or not Jan 20 06:09:28 Psi: why would they restrict it artificially? Jan 20 06:10:00 maybe, availability Jan 20 06:10:22 well Jan 20 06:10:27 Psi: hmm... well its big company, it can produce enough of them according to Sean Jan 20 06:10:28 i think the difference is that the march and sept releases are levels of marketing Jan 20 06:10:29 it might need some hand holding from them Jan 20 06:10:40 so anyone *could* get it in march but it won't be marketed to everyone ;0 Jan 20 06:10:47 so until some docs are written and some bugs removed they will keep the population small Jan 20 06:10:53 cbpage, thats what i'm hoping Jan 20 06:11:04 Psi: just that if they underestimate demand -> 6 week lead time for many parts Jan 20 06:11:53 i imagine they are going to get a large number of people wanting to purchase it in march Jan 20 06:12:16 maybe so many, that they will have to go through and decide who gets it now and who gets it later Jan 20 06:12:16 i want to wait until it has wifi Jan 20 06:12:24 are the screenshots mockups or real? Jan 20 06:13:56 11 Feb. Sweet. Jan 20 06:14:16 ANNOUNCEMENT!!!! Jan 20 06:14:21 * thedaniel pees himself Jan 20 06:15:12 there were some hints in this: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001071.html Jan 20 06:15:24 "We'll be four months into collaborative development before the public even gets an iPhone." Jan 20 06:16:19 "... six weeks lead-time... manufacturing is not an issue for us ;-)" http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001162.html Jan 20 06:17:01 heh - all those people saying they will wait until wifi will ease the demand :-) Jan 20 06:17:07 lol Jan 20 06:17:14 doc|home: I think they are mockups, but real is close (but I don't have phone) Jan 20 06:17:28 i'll be about six months into playing with mine by the time a wifi one might get out Jan 20 06:17:43 yeah, I think version with wifi will be announce 2007-09-11 Jan 20 06:17:53 s/announce/announced/ Jan 20 06:17:53 aloril meant: yeah, I think version with wifi will be announced 2007-09-11 Jan 20 06:18:14 and it will be only for those that have been playing I think ;-) Jan 20 06:18:21 i think it will be worth the wait Jan 20 06:18:23 for public, it might be much longer Jan 20 06:19:18 what I mean is that if you developed cool app for v1, there is good chance you get WiFi version at September for free Jan 20 06:19:21 i probably would have gotten it with just usb linking, although i really did want bluetooth to make it in Jan 20 06:19:28 i wish i had the knowledge and experience to be a REAL dev Jan 20 06:19:32 * aloril is guessing of course, but mail seems to hint that Jan 20 06:19:43 "that will repeat annually" indicates wifi will be released to the public on 200*8*-09-11 Jan 20 06:19:50 yeah Jan 20 06:20:35 * rwhitby-treo hopes his dev application has made the grade. Jan 20 06:22:27 what did you write? Jan 20 06:22:52 inive1: I founded and lead nslu2-linux.org Jan 20 06:23:30 rwhitby-treo: you sound quite sure thing Jan 20 06:23:47 I first intend to make the USD$80 Linksys NSLU2 the ideal power-efficient, silent, usb and bluetooth (via usb dongle) server for connectivity for the neo. Jan 20 06:25:12 (so you can just put an NSLU2 with BT dongle on each network that you're usually around, and have seamless mobility via BT networking as GPRS is 2c/*Kb (yes Kb, not Mb) here in Australia. Jan 20 06:25:39 yeah i think you'll get one for sure ;) Jan 20 06:27:35 by the way, this thing comes with the ability to take sim cards, right? I wouldn't ask but just moved to canada and some providers here give phones which are simless (nice lock-in) Jan 20 06:28:03 aloril: thanks for replying Jan 20 06:29:15 doc|home: definitely gsm with sim card Jan 20 06:29:33 I don't know that gen 2 has been announced with wifi Jan 20 06:29:44 it hasn't Jan 20 06:30:05 mickey|away had already said the announcement would not mention v2 at all Jan 20 06:30:18 rwhitby-treo: thanks Jan 20 06:30:36 not sure wifi is justified Jan 20 06:30:54 (and quite rightly so - if you're not willing to be part of the revolution unless wifi is in, then you not getting what the revolution is all about) Jan 20 06:31:03 except for the "it's a smart phone so it *needs* wifi" crowd Jan 20 06:31:16 no, i just can't afford it Jan 20 06:31:23 if it had wifi, it would be worth refinancing my house Jan 20 06:31:28 well I suspect flat rate fast edge or 3g will become standard Jan 20 06:31:50 how much bandwidth does a 100 gram device with a 2.9" screen need? Jan 20 06:31:51 i just found out about the project last week, and i bought a blackberry 8100 two months ago Jan 20 06:31:51 i can't think of any phone that's taken bluetooth as far as it'll go Jan 20 06:32:25 i think edge and/or 3g would be quite useful - remember it can be tethered to a pc which can eat up all the bandwidth easily Jan 20 06:32:42 spikebik1: gigabytes! ;) Jan 20 06:32:48 right Jan 20 06:32:49 and in the far future a third/fourth gen neo would have enough power to decode 480p video... Jan 20 06:32:53 but the pc can use wifi Jan 20 06:33:17 not always ;) Jan 20 06:33:35 inive1: you can get wifi for v1 phone: just add usb power and wifi usb stick Jan 20 06:34:00 inive1: I bet addon marked for that will happen soon after release ;-) Jan 20 06:34:01 if you're on a bus or train those wifi links are very short lived Jan 20 06:34:45 i think it would be easier to setup your house with a highpower bluetooth hub, than add wifi to the v1 phone Jan 20 06:34:56 I'd rather invest the battery and extra effort into a better gsm setup Jan 20 06:35:00 prolly Jan 20 06:35:21 quad band not tri Jan 20 06:35:23 then again if i'm at home i don't mind plugging in the USB and doing all the work remotely Jan 20 06:35:29 uh isn't it quad? Jan 20 06:35:33 edge or better not gprs Jan 20 06:35:46 spikebik1: v1 is quad band already (but only grps) Jan 20 06:35:50 isn't edge faster than gprs? Jan 20 06:35:54 yeah Jan 20 06:36:30 still high latency though Jan 20 06:36:53 high latency = ? Jan 20 06:37:02 500+ milliseconds Jan 20 06:37:09 maybe 400ish for edge Jan 20 06:37:15 wow Jan 20 06:37:27 i think hspda finally cuts that a lot Jan 20 06:37:42 various 3G networks do better? Jan 20 06:37:54 so yeah 3g > wifi... except that 3g networks in the us will have weird frequencies anyway Jan 20 06:38:02 *for me, 3g > wifi Jan 20 06:38:35 yeah, but i'm looking for the ability to connect to existing wireless networks Jan 20 06:38:53 *nod* i use my cell to get on the net when nothing else can ;) Jan 20 06:39:12 3G neo would allow me to create fake videocalls between two neos and use them to establish a very cheap data connection Jan 20 06:39:15 /name inivex Jan 20 06:39:27 ah, I have an announcement in my mail... Jan 20 06:39:29 sweet Jan 20 06:41:04 gaim hates me Jan 20 06:41:09 so 11 feb early dev access... Jan 20 06:41:22 another thing - at least for linux users - is that you could use the phone's gps data to determine which wifi access point to try to use at a given time Jan 20 06:41:42 and... perhaps even feed the wifi data back to the phone, so that at least when your laptop's open the phone kinda has wifi ;) Jan 20 06:41:50 *over bluetooth Jan 20 06:42:04 2007-02-11: Sunday, 2007-03-11: Sunday, 2007-09-11: Tuesday Jan 20 06:42:24 i think the last date might change, myself ;) Jan 20 06:42:48 but i want in on the 3/11 release Jan 20 06:43:18 I bet it will be available whole time between 2007-03-11 - 2007-09-11 for developers Jan 20 06:43:26 yup Jan 20 06:43:28 I guess its just "warning, this is just developers release" Jan 20 06:43:36 indeed Jan 20 06:43:48 and the various niche markets that will definitely pop up Jan 20 06:44:27 """don't go and write review like: "This is sucky phone and contains only these apps out of box." it is for developers only after all Jan 20 06:44:30 """ Jan 20 06:44:35 ;) Jan 20 06:45:14 oh, and of course there is 6 months of grassroots marketing ;-) Jan 20 06:46:36 I feel that iPhone might have gotten quite a competitor Jan 20 06:46:42 too bad it's impossible to add a radar system to the phone ;) then it would make it's own maps as you move along Jan 20 06:46:50 March release: unlikely, but September ... Jan 20 06:46:59 we can hope so :) Jan 20 06:47:13 cbpage: who says its impossible? it has unpowered usb host after all Jan 20 06:47:24 i was thinking within the phone ;) Jan 20 06:47:39 sigh,i don't think I'll qualify for 11 feb... so I'll have to wait more than a month :-( Jan 20 06:47:54 Yes... The neards play with their neos for 6 months, and when they FINALLY work juuust like they (we) want, they (we) show their (our) friends, who says "wow, I'm impressed with what that phone can be made to do! I'm getting one!" :) Jan 20 06:48:03 then again a little more impossible past that and you get a tricorder Jan 20 06:48:16 LOL Jan 20 06:48:17 *and* a communicator... take that star trek Jan 20 06:48:25 except with less annoying sounds i hope Jan 20 06:48:31 He's dead, Jim. Jan 20 06:48:50 of course - this is openmoko afterall Jan 20 06:49:07 cbpage: it has gps, and openstreetmaps exists. For what would you use the radar? Jan 20 06:49:10 mp3 ringtones? no problem! Jan 20 06:49:41 to literally map out the environment (this is of course impossible - while openstreetmaps is real ;) ) Jan 20 06:49:52 openstreetmaps? Jan 20 06:50:15 i know some people who would be impressed with a simple phone with a very nice interface Jan 20 06:50:23 hmm... mass-storage and windows, I guess there could be "amulate FAT for windows" program Jan 20 06:50:30 even the iPhone looks like it won't get that. Jan 20 06:50:37 openstreetmap.org - people are doing their own maps with gps Jan 20 06:50:46 or provide virtual FAT to upload mp3 ringtones, etc.. Jan 20 06:50:48 Basicly - look at it, and you'll s Jan 20 06:50:54 *see Jan 20 06:51:19 I will Jan 20 06:51:33 Maybe I'll use that month to write a little wrapper for comsat to get push mail with imap.... Jan 20 06:51:41 I've been using maemo mapper + google maps Jan 20 06:51:59 i want to be able to do port scans from my phone, that would be fun Jan 20 06:52:28 nmao shouldn't be difficult to get running Jan 20 06:52:33 s/o/p Jan 20 06:52:52 just reading last night logs so some (most?) have seen this already, but, hehe: http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=neo1973announcementra2.jpg Jan 20 06:53:20 hehe Jan 20 06:55:27 thats amusing Jan 20 07:07:48 hi mickeyl (and you might want to update topic to include announcement) Jan 20 07:13:27 hey mickeyl Jan 20 07:14:17 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001586.html Jan 20 07:16:39 oh noes, 11th march .. ugh Jan 20 07:16:52 good morning Jan 20 07:17:00 morning :) Jan 20 07:17:04 ah Jan 20 07:17:05 hhe Jan 20 07:17:09 morning to all :) Jan 20 07:17:25 mmh Jan 20 07:19:35 * mickeyl buys breakfast. bbiab Jan 20 07:21:41 morning!!! Jan 20 07:21:49 lol xkr47 came exactly at the right time :D Jan 20 07:22:21 thank you mickeyl! Jan 20 07:25:28 * xkr47 reads with heart pounding :) Jan 20 07:27:50 GReat stuff! Jan 20 07:27:58 A very good read. Jan 20 07:28:36 * xkr47 has to take a pee Jan 20 07:28:46 * Scaramanga shakes head and goes to bed Jan 20 07:28:55 xkr47: you were about 2 hours late ;-) Jan 20 07:30:16 rwhitby-treo, with what -) Jan 20 07:32:12 xkr47: the announcement - you could have pee' yourself 2 hours ago instead ;-) Jan 20 07:32:33 so the topic was changes only 2 hours later ?-) Jan 20 07:32:41 :) Jan 20 07:34:49 * rwhitby-treo keeps live logs available to all at http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko.txt Jan 20 07:35:31 something to read on your neo (via BT to your home network) each morning ... Jan 20 07:35:49 * xkr47 checks the scrollback Jan 20 07:36:08 rwhitby-treo, almost like rss ;) Jan 20 07:37:26 my first application for the treo (which hopefully will mostly be scripting existing apps) is to download a set of web pages each morning (including the overnight irc logs) for the read on the way to work on the bus Jan 20 07:37:36 s/treo/neo/ Jan 20 07:37:36 rwhitby-treo meant: my first application for the neo (which hopefully will mostly be scripting existing apps) is to download a set of web pages each morning (including the overnight irc logs) for the read on the way to work on the bus Jan 20 07:38:27 (no flat rate data plans in australia) Jan 20 07:46:55 * rwhitby-treo updates http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko with a link to the announcement Jan 20 07:47:32 yeah.. should someone also update www.openmoko.com maybe... Jan 20 07:48:34 lol I wasn't the only one with peeing problems :) Jan 20 07:54:50 record amount of nicks last night: 185 2007-01-19 23:23:41 Jan 20 07:57:23 My first application/hack will be turning on sounds if the vibration do not work (because of charging), because that is what pissed me off the most :) Jan 20 07:58:41 I don't even know if the neo1973 has that problem (all phones I have owned has this problem) .. Jan 20 08:02:31 sannes, is that some common thing that vibration is off while charging ? Jan 20 08:02:57 * xkr47 gets this "oh, so that's why my vibration is sometimes broken" :) Jan 20 08:04:02 buz, morning Jan 20 08:06:16 xkr47: :) Jan 20 08:06:52 Why dbus-0.9 isn't the abi stable version 1.x out ? Jan 20 08:08:07 I think the api was in practice stable for quite long before that... Jan 20 08:08:37 :) Jan 20 08:08:46 "stable enough for developers" Jan 20 08:09:01 good morning all Jan 20 08:09:13 hi koen.. we are in luck :) Jan 20 08:09:28 yes Jan 20 08:09:38 if were are 'selected' Jan 20 08:10:25 the chosen ones Jan 20 08:10:25 :) Jan 20 08:11:00 that announcement sounds like it comes from fairyland Jan 20 08:11:34 yeah :D Jan 20 08:11:40 koen & xkr47 : are you one of those lucky people getting it 11th february then? Jan 20 08:12:02 buz, at first it even sounded like the next sentence was going to be "Too bad it's not going to happen this time" Jan 20 08:12:04 s/one/two/; Jan 20 08:12:25 sannes, we are one of the lucky ones to know there is a future :) Jan 20 08:12:28 xkr47: well without the v8 it wont Jan 20 08:12:44 i would rather have known something about v2 Jan 20 08:12:52 sannes, if I'm lucky, I'll be getting it in march Jan 20 08:12:55 that roadmap says like nothing at all Jan 20 08:13:26 the roadmap says: please tell us what you want and we'll do our best Jan 20 08:14:19 like they dont know Jan 20 08:14:30 buz: there's about one year until developers will get their v2:s (the roadmap was supposed to be the same for the comming years, but for other phones), so I relly, really doubt that ther is much to say about v2 yet. Jan 20 08:14:38 I guess some online polls would be nice :) Jan 20 08:14:55 one device per year? thats ridiculous Jan 20 08:15:10 ozamosi, yeah I got the impression that in 2007-09-11 they will tell us the preliminary specs for v2 and in 2008-02-11 it will be in phase 0 Jan 20 08:15:23 i thought so at first Jan 20 08:15:32 but that's a really weird life cycle for a phone Jan 20 08:15:42 the revolution is in the software, not the hardware Jan 20 08:15:46 but as schedules go, I think it's probable that things change over time Jan 20 08:16:04 if it's a good succes other devices will surely follow in shorter time frames Jan 20 08:16:07 boorad: ping Jan 20 08:16:27 Sencer, world domination is in the hardware + software, probably everyone won't switch just because of software Jan 20 08:16:30 ;) Jan 20 08:16:38 Sencer, true Jan 20 08:17:02 Also, when the software bas is more mature, stable and "portable", it will probably not need 6 months of general developer testing/development Jan 20 08:17:10 s/bas/base Jan 20 08:17:20 true Jan 20 08:17:22 apt: tricked you :P Jan 20 08:18:00 xkr47: true. Jan 20 08:18:22 I wonder what is worst, knowing that I have to wait untill 11th march or not knowing the date hoping for next week :P .. hm Jan 20 08:18:41 I suspect we'll have openmoko running on ezx phones in ~60 minutes after the recipes come online Jan 20 08:19:12 * xkr47 's fairytale vision is that there will be devices running openmoko with different screen sizes and features so you can choose what you need Jan 20 08:19:29 did I miss some annoucement? Jan 20 08:19:38 the htc people will probable take a few months, with their NIH and unwillingness to ask help Jan 20 08:19:42 koen, :) Jan 20 08:19:56 MDK: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html Jan 20 08:20:06 koen, maybe we need a separate mailing lists for porting openmoko to new platforms.. Jan 20 08:20:48 sannes, I see only brightness in all of this :) Jan 20 08:20:53 xkr47: and a seperate mailing list for wifi requests. This is going to be a loooong year.... *G* Jan 20 08:20:59 :DD Jan 20 08:21:12 rant@lists.open... Jan 20 08:21:31 * xkr47 wonders if the wiki will explode Jan 20 08:21:53 will they give access only to those that got the phone until 2006-09-11 Jan 20 08:22:03 I mean write access Jan 20 08:22:18 oh, nicem nice Jan 20 08:22:39 MDK, like in the matrix, "words can't describe, you've got to see it for yourself" Jan 20 08:23:04 very nice & clear vision Jan 20 08:23:25 hope one day maemo can reach similiar level of transparency Jan 20 08:23:36 if only the n800 had gsm Jan 20 08:23:40 * sannes wonders if he will explode :) Jan 20 08:24:36 * xkr47 offers sannes the green pill for temporary escaping back to reality as the others know it ;) Jan 20 08:28:34 I wonder how often stories like this will happen for Neo1973: http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/01/20/0350212.shtml Jan 20 08:29:47 :) Jan 20 08:37:07 I are journalist: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/news-from-fic Jan 20 08:37:29 haha Jan 20 08:47:17 koen, can we believe what you say ?-) Jan 20 08:47:52 :) Jan 20 08:55:28 hmm, I'm not informed about this hacker's lunchbox.. is it something that will be included when ordering a neo ? Jan 20 08:59:57 koen, tried to add a comment on your blog but it didn't work out Jan 20 09:00:38 xkr47: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001006.html don't recall if it has been elaborated further from an official source so far. Jan 20 09:00:39 drat, those broke again? Jan 20 09:01:19 Demitar, ok thx Jan 20 09:01:19 xkr47: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/news-from-fic#comment-26 Jan 20 09:01:30 that's better :) Jan 20 09:03:35 it just stroke me, worms could be a perfect game on a touchscreen Jan 20 09:03:44 and it's seriously addictive, too Jan 20 09:03:56 and works over gprs too :) Jan 20 09:04:05 (multiplayer of course :) Jan 20 09:04:16 you could even pass around a neo ;) Jan 20 09:04:24 * xkr47 has some experience in fake 3d using planar scrollers Jan 20 09:04:31 buz, :) Jan 20 09:04:38 you might even get away using qemu to run the dos worms1 Jan 20 09:05:08 hehe Jan 20 09:05:10 dosbox! Jan 20 09:05:42 mhh does dosbox emulate the x86? Jan 20 09:05:54 so.. should we collect a list of things we "still want to know" from mickeyl etc :) Jan 20 09:05:57 unlimited levels, great fun, 6mb Jan 20 09:06:05 buz: you can play dos games on arm with dosbox Jan 20 09:06:11 perfect Jan 20 09:06:18 mickeyl, 1. what's the hackers lunchbox and the car kit? Jan 20 09:06:22 no need to port anything then Jan 20 09:06:32 is there even an open source worms clone? Jan 20 09:06:38 http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/dosbox/dosbox_0.63.bb :) Jan 20 09:06:57 nibbles? Jan 20 09:07:00 mickeyl, 2. will you ship on 2006-03-11 to anyone claiming himself to be a developer? Jan 20 09:07:48 buz, I once helped one friend assembly-optimize a worms clone called "duck mr duck" Jan 20 09:08:34 http://www.wormux.org/ Jan 20 09:08:52 thats totally cross platform Jan 20 09:09:51 mickeyl, 3. will the phone charge only when connected with a USB Mini-B connector or also when connected with a USB Mini-A connector? Jan 20 09:10:37 yeah that even ships with ubuntu Jan 20 09:10:45 too bad it needs 40mb of hd Jan 20 09:11:11 mickeyl, 4. the "unpowered usb" is a bit unclear.. I have read somewhere that some devices supply 5V but only for detection that usb is working, not for any kind of load.. is this how it actually works in Neo? Jan 20 09:12:23 xkr47: no 5v for detection Jan 20 09:12:42 it's rumoured that it's the same deal as for the n770 Jan 20 09:13:03 * xkr47 seeks to lock down or disintegrate rumours :) Jan 20 09:13:14 koen, is it different in n800 ? Jan 20 09:13:56 the n800 doesn't have usb host wired Jan 20 09:14:19 oh Jan 20 09:14:48 mickeyl, [4. clarification] i.e. will I be able to connect my digital camera (that has a battery of its own) to it without an additional power supply? Jan 20 09:14:57 xkr47: http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2007-January/007255.html Jan 20 09:15:42 xkr47: I suspect You'll need to supply 5V to get the phone to detect the camera Jan 20 09:15:52 or the other way around :) Jan 20 09:16:21 ~lart USB Jan 20 09:16:22 * apt throws a AN/M-8 smoke grenade at USB Jan 20 09:16:30 it would still be nice to know for sure.. so I can start preparing & soldering together what I need :) Jan 20 09:16:54 I have not yet found a mini-usb-a to mini-usb-b cable anywhere here in finland Jan 20 09:17:24 are these OTG devices really non-existent in finland or do they all come with cables included so nobody needs them? Jan 20 09:18:11 mickeyl, [1. continuation] and what cables are shipped with the "basic" version? Jan 20 09:20:46 poor guy... :) Jan 20 09:20:55 wh me ?-) Jan 20 09:21:14 s/ /o / Jan 20 09:21:14 xkr47 meant: who me ?-) Jan 20 09:22:20 it would be nice if the neo could have had a usb port that had 5v on it, even if it was only 1mA, just enough so device could detect something was being connected Jan 20 09:22:44 *have been Jan 20 09:22:49 Psi: the omap2 SoC have a charge pump to do that Jan 20 09:22:57 yes.. maybe they could still do that ;-) Jan 20 09:23:05 the problem is that everything is 3.3 volt in those devices Jan 20 09:23:21 it's easy to double the voltage if you don't need much power Jan 20 09:23:24 so you need a chargepump to get 5v Jan 20 09:23:37 but I guess it might drain power a bit just to double it Jan 20 09:24:33 hehe.. if you added a 1.5 volt minibattery in the phone, you could get 4.8V from 3.3 which would maybe just be in-spec :) Jan 20 09:24:59 usb has a spec? Jan 20 09:25:02 * koen shocked Jan 20 09:25:06 lol Jan 20 09:28:59 * xkr47 found this re: usb http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1283.html Jan 20 09:34:43 * xkr47 is just worried that if usb is also used for charging the neo, will a 5V supply on the usb port be sucked dry if it's a battery.. hence question 3.. Jan 20 09:36:16 xkr47: maybe you can control when phone is actually charging? Jan 20 09:36:47 (in addition to automatic one that current phones have you could manually turn it on/off) Jan 20 09:36:53 dunno.. but that again gives the problem that "what if it runs out of battery and the phone doesn't have the power to make itself charge" Jan 20 09:37:09 1.) hackers lunchbox contains cool items for hackers. let's keep a couple of surprises Jan 20 09:37:25 1b) car kit contains windscreen holder and stuff Jan 20 09:37:30 2. yes Jan 20 09:37:36 3. no idea Jan 20 09:38:45 \o/ Jan 20 09:38:45 i can't remember what's in the three kits. i've seen photos but my memory faded Jan 20 09:39:02 3 kits? Jan 20 09:39:08 lunch, car and normal? Jan 20 09:39:13 yeah.. I just have a hard time finding mini-usb-a cables here.. Jan 20 09:40:22 [x] I want an 1m mini-usb-a to mini-usb-b cable included for $20 Jan 20 09:41:17 koen: yep Jan 20 09:41:31 plus 50% rare-cable-tax Jan 20 09:43:26 xorAxAx, sure :) Jan 20 09:45:43 * xkr47 thanks mickeyl for all the answers Jan 20 09:45:49 man they did write quite an announcement :) Jan 20 09:46:25 hehe, still keeping secrets though :P Jan 20 09:50:25 didnt think they will say more :) Jan 20 09:50:49 * xkr47 is happy Jan 20 09:50:54 so 11 march ... the question is .. will i survive with a broken phone to 11 of march :D Jan 20 09:51:21 kabturek, go get a nokia 2110 until then ;---) Jan 20 09:52:52 xkr47: man not a nokia ;) i dont like nokia ( not talkin about thos symbian phones - theyre nice) Jan 20 09:53:16 but yeah i must think about smthing Jan 20 09:53:18 it was a joke, a 2110 is a brick from 1995 :) Jan 20 09:53:52 i lilked the motorola with paper-display for 50$ but i dont think its out yet Jan 20 09:53:55 lol ;) Jan 20 09:54:16 http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_2110-24.php Jan 20 09:54:21 "2007-02-11 Phase 0: Developer Preview" You guys will start the initial phase on a Sunday? ;-) Jan 20 09:54:30 Laibsch, :)) Jan 20 09:54:53 http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/11/28/moto_ships_motofone/ Jan 20 09:54:55 * rwhitby-treo starts thinking about what apps should go in the MokoSlug firmware for the nslu2 so that it can be the perfect companion server to the Neo ... Jan 20 09:55:00 Laibsch: it's an american date, it means 2nd Nov 2007 Jan 20 09:55:10 Laibsch, they will probably finish the last build by friday and start making phones on saturday ;-) Jan 20 09:55:10 that's a friday :o> Jan 20 09:55:22 so_solid_moo_, lol Jan 20 09:55:23 yeah, motofone can be nice Jan 20 09:55:40 xkr47: nice one :) nice antenna ;) Jan 20 09:55:46 so_solid_moo_: No, the Americans write different. It must be Japanese (and possibly Taiwan is same, I don't know) Jan 20 09:55:59 kabturek, it can be pulled out 12cm even! Jan 20 09:56:06 it is the ISO notation, e.g. used in china Jan 20 09:56:29 * so_solid_moo hears a whooshing sound Jan 20 09:57:35 cool, the nokia 2110 had a 1110mAh battery and moko has 1200mAh :DD Jan 20 09:57:51 (the 1110mAh battery - man it was big, big as my current phone :) Jan 20 09:59:48 Hm... Interesting... Just a few weeks ago, I was under the impression that all new cool phones was 3G, but neither iPhone nor Neo1973 is. The interesting part is that I haven't seen Anyone complain about it... Jan 20 10:01:11 the neo1973 is a platform device. getting a relatively cheap phone into the hands of the developers to shape a new common linux phone platform is its mission. Jan 20 10:01:26 unbelievable devices is scheduled for the next iteration Jan 20 10:01:32 and i'm not kidding here... Jan 20 10:01:40 Maybe I'm just very european :) Jan 20 10:03:01 multitouch devices without keys running os x? Jan 20 10:03:14 that would be unbelievable Jan 20 10:03:17 indeed Jan 20 10:03:18 ozamosi: "OpenMoko is doomed without 3G, can't live with that, will failed miserably " .. :P happy? Jan 20 10:03:40 sannes: yes. Thank you. Jan 20 10:03:51 heh Jan 20 10:05:35 mickeyl: Seriously, is the launch really on Feb 11? Jan 20 10:06:04 phase 1 countdown program: Jan 20 10:06:05 perl -e '$|=1;$x='`date --date "2007-03-11 00:00:00 GMT" +%s`';while(1){$t=time();$d=$x-$t;$s=$d%60;$d/=60;$m=$d%60;$d/=60;$h=$d%24;$d/=24;printf("\r%d days %2d:%02d:%02d",$d,$h,$m,$s);sleep(1);}' Jan 20 10:06:35 also available here: http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tmp/phase1_countdown Jan 20 10:06:42 To be quite honest, only people I have seen trying to hype 3G is providers selling "video calls" and such.. two friends tried it once (it was free for a while to get people hooked) and they were like.. "nah" .. Jan 20 10:06:48 feel free to change the date to whatever :) Jan 20 10:06:52 Laibsch: if we don't stumble over hardware problems that need a new revision, then yes. the current revision looks solid enough to get it into the hands of hardcore devels Jan 20 10:07:53 mickeyl: Well, I ask since that is a Sunday and seemed rather odd. Jan 20 10:07:58 Same for March 11. Jan 20 10:07:58 how many pieces of neo1973 will be avaible in phase1? Jan 20 10:08:37 Laibsch: don't take the dates too seriously. it's always +- 1 or 2 days Jan 20 10:08:42 :) Jan 20 10:08:59 plus two days shipping and a week in customs :-( Jan 20 10:08:59 mikesh: i don't remember that. might ask on the mailing list Jan 20 10:09:05 ~lart customs Jan 20 10:09:05 * apt shoots customs in his sleep Jan 20 10:09:41 in time for fosdem Jan 20 10:09:54 * xkr47 will keep his countdown timer running on his desktop :) Jan 20 10:10:12 49 days, 13 hours.. :O Jan 20 10:13:43 koen: do you know perhaps something about gcc 4.0 vs 4.1 differences? Jan 20 10:14:13 MDK: what kind of differences? Jan 20 10:14:22 for arm gcc 4.1.0 vs 4.1.1 is a huge difference Jan 20 10:14:28 yeah, I know Jan 20 10:14:42 I want to use 4.1 for eabi, but gdc can be only patched against 4.0 Jan 20 10:14:55 * Psi ponders things that would come under the category of 'unbelievable devices' Jan 20 10:15:04 so I'm interested, if there are big changes in the internal language generation Jan 20 10:15:12 or whatever the name is Jan 20 10:15:26 * MDK doesn't have big knowledge about compilers Jan 20 10:15:58 I tried building it against the CodeSourcery's 3.4.4 + eabi but... Jan 20 10:16:12 a phone with a pull-out (rolled up/flexible) 7" touchscreen would be pretty unbelievable :P Jan 20 10:16:13 eeeeew Jan 20 10:16:14 the built gdc compiler segfaults from time to time Jan 20 10:16:19 csl toolchains should die Jan 20 10:16:23 the should Jan 20 10:16:26 *they Jan 20 10:16:38 gdc is the D compiler? Jan 20 10:16:53 their gcc seems to be seriously altered Jan 20 10:17:00 Psi: teleporters Jan 20 10:17:22 and it's impossible to say where eabi support ends and where general "black-magic-patching" starts Jan 20 10:17:29 koen: yeah, gnu D compiler Jan 20 10:17:34 a frontend for gcc Jan 20 10:18:01 ozamosi, hehe Jan 20 10:18:43 I wonder why I wrote that in plural form. Maybe my subconcious told me one teleporter was too easy Jan 20 10:20:33 it needs two so that the phone can teleport itself. Jan 20 10:20:44 one half teleports the first half, then vice versa Jan 20 10:21:10 MDK: I suspect your best bet is to ask the D folks to update to 4.1.x Jan 20 10:22:21 koen: yeah, I guess Jan 20 10:22:35 although the d folks might wait for 4.2.x Jan 20 10:22:53 Ah, of course. Jan 20 10:23:05 * mickeyl thinks D rocks Jan 20 10:23:07 My startrek skills are seriously flawed :( Jan 20 10:23:17 heh Jan 20 10:23:21 It's on the top ten list of things I want to look into in Q3/Q4 this year Jan 20 10:24:11 mickeyl: I got a fully working compiler that works on 770 Jan 20 10:24:14 somehow i dont think your talking about the teleporting feature :P Jan 20 10:24:21 MDK: sweet! Jan 20 10:24:21 err, produces code that works on 770 Jan 20 10:24:23 BUT Jan 20 10:24:30 this is for the old legacy ARM Jan 20 10:24:42 I'm having problems with -gnueabi Jan 20 10:25:42 you can run old legacy arm on -gnueabi, but you need to statically-compile everything ;) Jan 20 10:25:51 which sucks of course Jan 20 10:26:07 err, statically-link Jan 20 10:30:01 if CONFIG_OABI_COMPAT is set in the kernel Jan 20 10:31:20 Are there already people working on a push mail client for the neo ? Jan 20 10:31:37 yes, FIC Jan 20 10:32:03 Melkman: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001593.html Jan 20 10:32:08 wow, so we got an announcement? Jan 20 10:32:17 yeap Jan 20 10:32:23 cld2: see topic :) Jan 20 10:32:29 koen: just noticed Jan 20 10:32:32 fackin sweet. Jan 20 10:32:42 A really neat tinymail client should be buildable... Jan 20 10:33:19 That would give me a reason to try tinymail out, and learn the moko gui speciall thingys. Jan 20 10:35:13 ozamosi, hehe, your comment about Startrek got me thinking of an LCARS interface for the neo Jan 20 10:36:47 ozamosi: I was also thinking along those lines. Only thing I'd want to add is a simple deamon on the mail server to notify the client of new mail. So you won't have to poll your server to save bandwidth Jan 20 10:37:39 Melkman: that sounds like what the officiall client is, more or less (i don't know what anything in that mail means, but it sounds like what you say) Jan 20 10:37:39 would be very easy to implement by ISP's that already do imap (or pop even) Jan 20 10:38:02 mickeyl: http://www.qoheleth.uklinux.net/blog/?p=139 is also a nice read Jan 20 10:38:30 if I look at funambol it's a complete framework for mail.. Jan 20 10:38:41 hi Jan 20 10:38:46 I don't want an other mail setup on the server Jan 20 10:39:04 will neo support some kind of j2me? Jan 20 10:39:33 after reading that im pumped up. Jan 20 10:40:06 rgl: if someone adds it to OpenEmbedded, yes Jan 20 10:41:11 koen: ah yeah. thanks for the URL Jan 20 10:41:59 Melkman: sounds like you want IMAP with IDLE support. Jan 20 10:42:26 (assuming your GPRS connection is billed by volume and not by connection time) Jan 20 10:42:55 * rwhitby adds that to the list for MokoSlug Jan 20 10:43:30 MokoSlug? Jan 20 10:44:02 rwhitby: did you see http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9048137234.html ? Jan 20 10:44:48 koen: yep - been following that on l-a-k or debian-arm (forget which) Jan 20 10:45:23 ozamosi: nslu2 firmware distribution targetted as a silent home server for openmoko Jan 20 10:45:48 koen, humm, so we would be able to use any package for "normal" linux on it (the ones avail on OE)? like, using python-gtk? Jan 20 10:46:17 Ah, ok. You've almost made me buy a nslu2, even though I already have multiple servers at home :) Jan 20 10:47:07 ozamosi: MokoSlug will simply be a custom configuration of an existing OpenEmbedded distribution Jan 20 10:47:35 (buy an nslu2 and bluetooth adapter, flash the mokoslug firmware, connect to it with your Neo) Jan 20 10:47:45 rwhitby: with not a task instead of a seperate firmware? Jan 20 10:48:35 koen: well it will end up as separate firmware (i.e. an 8MB downloadable image, including Intel microcode) - how that firmware is built is yet to be decided. Jan 20 10:48:54 that's a bit inflexible, don't you think? Jan 20 10:49:07 with a task !nslu2 devices can benefit from it Jan 20 10:49:33 koen: note that I didn't preclude a task. I just said that there would be an nslu2 image available for download Jan 20 10:49:50 rwhitby: just making sure Jan 20 10:50:05 koen: wouldn't expect anything less ;-) Jan 20 10:51:03 koen: but the task has to produce a rootfs less than 6.5MB, so it can all fit in flash on an nslu2. Jan 20 10:51:45 no, the task when used on top of a rootfs has to produce an image <6.5MB Jan 20 10:52:21 right. the task can't push a minimal rootfs past 6.5MB. Jan 20 11:52:05 So how do I get my hands on this 'free' phone ? Jan 20 11:52:12 I would like to start making software ? Jan 20 11:52:34 see the instructions on http://www.openmoko.com Jan 20 11:52:42 edwardocallaghan: first paragraph on openmoko.com Jan 20 11:54:01 OK, thanks Jan 20 11:54:09 Will have to email them soon Jan 20 11:54:58 you'd better hope it's not a FIFO queue :-) that's been up there for months. Jan 20 11:55:42 I hope they'll send one to select gtk, cairo and o-hand people as well Jan 20 11:58:25 i wonder if trolltech manages to get this oneto run qtopia stable Jan 20 11:58:34 with their own design they didnt really suceed ;) Jan 20 11:58:52 buz: shouldn't be too hard, qtopia is in OE as well Jan 20 11:59:19 qt is cool Jan 20 11:59:19 well reports about the greenphone indicate it's not stable Jan 20 11:59:21 koen: any idea about opie ii? there is very little info about it Jan 20 11:59:21 not at all Jan 20 11:59:44 qtopia is using framebuffer directly right? Jan 20 11:59:59 afaik Jan 20 12:00:21 isn't that the main difference? Jan 20 12:00:35 buz: insisting on direct fb access means cutting yourself off from usefull desktop technology Jan 20 12:00:50 buz: and from devices that don't have a framebuffer Jan 20 12:01:21 well on the neo you have enough hardware to forego qtopia and use qt itself Jan 20 12:01:33 indeed Jan 20 12:01:43 it would be nice to see qt4/x11 apps on it Jan 20 12:01:46 128mb ram will greatly help with that Jan 20 12:02:25 :p Jan 20 12:02:36 koen: what would you say the main argument between qtopia/qt would be just the ability to use the gtk stuff? Jan 20 12:03:26 regular X stuff as well, like Xv, Xvmc, composite, etc Jan 20 12:03:32 actually, the mean reason is that qt is not LGPL Jan 20 12:03:49 i guess it is, anyway Jan 20 12:03:50 depends if you consider that good or bad Jan 20 12:04:07 if you're building a platform, it's bad Jan 20 12:04:31 it is also most likely why the enterprise distro all went gnome Jan 20 12:05:12 and the fact that enterprise people get scared by having to tweak a zillion options before it becomes useable Jan 20 12:05:22 that's why I stopped using kde Jan 20 12:05:46 thats why i use kde Jan 20 12:06:02 gnome is like osx in that regards Jan 20 12:06:04 Use Fluxbox or die Jan 20 12:06:05 either like it or dont Jan 20 12:06:13 * koen hugs sane defaults Jan 20 12:06:28 thats what your distro should be giving you Jan 20 12:06:31 i think kde defaults are sane Jan 20 12:06:41 in kubuntu anyway (aside of the positively awful theme that is) Jan 20 12:07:26 PC-BSD do a good job with KDE Jan 20 12:07:40 They really clean it up Jan 20 12:09:42 i dont want any of that Jan 20 12:09:49 that nearly always means dumbing it down Jan 20 12:09:55 i want 100 icons in my app Jan 20 12:10:23 I like to use my RAM for my apps Jan 20 12:10:37 I need all I can get Jan 20 12:10:44 Yes all 16GB Jan 20 12:16:16 bit of publicity for the Neo :) Jan 20 12:16:17 http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=freechat&Number=2861760&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=&vc=1 Jan 20 12:16:51 please correct me if I got any of the details wrong Jan 20 12:18:09 We encountered a problem. The reason reported was: Access Denied. This is not necessarily an error. If you feel this is an error then it could be something as simple as your browser not being set to accept cookies. If you feel this error is a problem with the server then please contact team@thinkbroadband.com and let us know what exactly went wrong so it Jan 20 12:18:28 We cannot proceed. Jan 20 12:18:28 We encountered a problem. The reason reported was: Jan 20 12:18:28 Access Denied. Jan 20 12:18:29 This is not necessarily an error. If you feel this is an error then it could be something as simple as your browser not being set to accept cookies. If you feel this error is a problem with the server then please contact team@thinkbroadband.com and let us know what exactly went wrong so it can be fixed as soon as possible. Otherwise, please use your back button to return to the previous page. Jan 20 12:18:30 that for my link? Jan 20 12:18:38 yes Jan 20 12:18:40 hang on then I will pastebin what I wrote Jan 20 12:19:06 Your site is a bit retarded if you don't mind me saying so Jan 20 12:19:14 it isn't my site Jan 20 12:19:20 it is the biggest braodband forum in the UK Jan 20 12:19:26 Use XOOPS Jan 20 12:19:35 Ah well the UK is retarded no wonder Jan 20 12:19:46 That's why I am leaving Jan 20 12:19:54 http://www.pastebin.ca/322454 Jan 20 12:21:53 hopefully I didn't get anything factually incorrect? Jan 20 12:23:11 * mickeyl reads Jan 20 12:23:12 please tell me if Idid soI canmake the relevant edits Jan 20 12:24:25 looks about right Jan 20 12:25:14 mickeyl:Hi Jan 20 12:25:21 thanks, I only found out about it earlier this week, so I didn't want to get anything wrong Jan 20 12:25:30 yo edwardocallaghan Jan 20 12:25:32 I still have a lot of reading to do myself Jan 20 12:25:58 How likely is it going to be to really get my hands on a phone&SDK to do some dev on? Jan 20 12:26:20 hmm... very likely. march 11 is open for all devel Jan 20 12:26:44 edwardocallaghan: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001505.html Jan 20 12:26:52 * mickeyl now going through all coreteam@openmoko.org applications to select some devels. Jan 20 12:26:59 bbl Jan 20 12:27:01 I mean the pre view one... Jan 20 12:27:45 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EdwardOcallaghan Jan 20 12:27:49 mickeyl: how many applications did you get? Jan 20 12:28:01 rwhitby: i think ~ 100 or so Jan 20 12:28:09 * so_solid_moo expected a bigger number than that Jan 20 12:28:24 i lost track a bit Jan 20 12:28:25 perhaps even more Jan 20 12:28:49 how many are you able to select? Jan 20 12:29:37 i guess about 50 or so for the first run Jan 20 12:29:44 wow, that's not bad Jan 20 12:30:11 50% chance, not bad Jan 20 12:34:32 the rest of us can then play in qemu for a month right? Jan 20 12:34:45 * rwhitby watches coreteam's mailbox suddenly fill up ... Jan 20 12:38:21 yeah Jan 20 12:40:05 the "Think Outside Stowaway Sierra" looks pretty neat Jan 20 12:42:16 hmm.. I guess there is possibility that 2007-09-11 release won't have proprietary agpsd daemon Jan 20 12:42:41 I wouldn't count on it Jan 20 12:42:56 I do suspect there will be a replacement available at that time Jan 20 12:43:54 posted on the ubuntuforums too Jan 20 12:44:05 and a couple of other places I frequant Jan 20 12:44:32 yeah, that's probably general trend: what is easily available will exceed what is going to be bundled Jan 20 12:45:33 I wonder how the community is going to handle all the different images being available for the neo Jan 20 12:45:51 and how far FIC/openmoko wants to support those Jan 20 12:46:50 koen: let's hope it stays somewhat centralised and congenial like nslu2-linux, and not turn into wrt45g-style developer wars. Jan 20 12:47:04 blogged as well Jan 20 12:48:45 mickeyl: any roadmap for going EABI? Jan 20 12:49:01 koen: umm.. you have one official image (which is being shipped, especlially the one at 09-11) Jan 20 12:49:20 hey guys, i must've missed the announcement, what was it? Jan 20 12:49:28 did you all see the video with sean too? Jan 20 12:49:29 Stefan_C: topic Jan 20 12:49:36 Stefan_C: what video? Jan 20 12:49:39 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg&eurl= Jan 20 12:49:44 Stefan_C: sean lengthly explained us in the announcement, how important it is to check the channel topic Jan 20 12:49:44 koen: you have good position because FIC itself is behind it, so you can easily select official one Jan 20 12:50:39 so the announcement is the road map? i would think it would be outlines more on the home page. it's quite spare on details. a blog would help ... Jan 20 12:51:03 details on v2 would help Jan 20 12:51:14 then again our mouth might run dry because of all the drooling Jan 20 12:51:15 if there are any such details Jan 20 12:52:32 I'll just try to get oe and qemu working until March :) Jan 20 12:53:52 koen: between March and September Jan 20 12:54:22 of course we can test earlier Jan 20 12:55:20 man idk why but i'm really excited about this thing, i just wish it wasn't so ugly Jan 20 12:55:42 mickeyl: nice announcement Jan 20 12:55:55 thanks :) Jan 20 12:55:57 good morning, btw Jan 20 12:56:14 mickeyl: how are you related to openmoko? Jan 20 12:56:36 Stefan_C: Brother in law Jan 20 12:56:41 mickeyl is the chief sw platform architect dude Jan 20 12:57:10 thanks for clarifying Jan 20 12:57:21 and you rwhitby? Jan 20 12:57:23 (not that I speak on his or openmoko's behalf, of course) Jan 20 12:57:44 hehe, that's quite cool. /me notes for the business card "chief sw platform architect dude" Jan 20 12:57:46 I'm just some random guy who runs nslu2-linux.org (which uses OpenEmbedded) Jan 20 12:58:20 well i just like to get to know people. companies are boring when you can't name the people who helped make it what it is. Jan 20 12:58:21 I still like the story of a company that had a policy that when you've been in the house for n years, you get a "general" prefix on your title. Jan 20 12:58:26 re Jan 20 12:58:31 And this one guy who worked there with the title "specialist". Jan 20 12:58:34 Tv: senior :) Jan 20 12:58:34 And got the promotion. Jan 20 12:58:58 senior general specialist Jan 20 12:58:58 night all Jan 20 12:59:33 who would i have to contact at openmoko to get them to use RSS feeds and a standard forum. mailing lists are quite gastly and out dated Jan 20 12:59:46 * XorA shoots Stefan_C now Jan 20 12:59:54 * rwhitby shoots forums instead Jan 20 13:00:07 * CM looks at the wiki Jan 20 13:00:15 * Sencer runs amok. Shoots everybody. Jan 20 13:00:22 it's difficult to have conversations in a wiki Jan 20 13:00:29 but forums are something everyone understands Jan 20 13:00:30 supplementary tool discussions are sooo boring Jan 20 13:00:33 Stefan_C: us dev types prefer mailing lists Jan 20 13:00:41 why? Jan 20 13:00:49 mailinglists and irc Jan 20 13:00:57 While I agree that forums are cumbersome an RSS feed of pipermail I wouldn't mind. Jan 20 13:00:58 Stefan_C: because we can read it on any device we choose Jan 20 13:01:30 hard to download a forum for offline reading on the bus Jan 20 13:01:34 Stefan_C: don't say that... More people have sent an email and read a response, than posted in a forum Jan 20 13:01:46 and SMTP mail is a standard, when they standardise forums so we can filter them then we might start using them Jan 20 13:01:56 i'm just speaking from personal preferance Jan 20 13:02:08 but you all give great reasons as to why it is the way it is Jan 20 13:02:54 Stefan_C: I read many mailing lists, but visit no forums regularly (I do get one via an RSS feed which I skim) Jan 20 13:03:04 Stefan_C: you can always use gmane to get a forum view on mist mailing lists Jan 20 13:03:06 I prefer forums as well, personally, but lot's of developers hate them. Jan 20 13:03:18 XorA: i use windows Jan 20 13:03:39 Maybe that is why there are no really good forum software. All are PHP, and the only ones that has features but not that many security holes are proprietary... Jan 20 13:03:57 I can never remember to visit a forum. Email comes to me :-) Jan 20 13:04:10 hence why i use an RSS feed attached to a forum Jan 20 13:04:37 Stefan_C: yes, but you can't reply when you're offline. Jan 20 13:04:48 so they did make the deadline Jan 20 13:04:50 Stefan_C: Example: http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.openmoko.general/ Jan 20 13:04:58 I depend on offline IMAP for 80% of my email traffic. Jan 20 13:05:00 Stefan_C: and what happens when there are more new posts than items in an rss-feed? Jan 20 13:05:29 maillinglists would be much more cooler if they had an nice to use web interface, so you could read through topics that had been discussed before you registered... Jan 20 13:05:43 l4rs: gmane.org Jan 20 13:06:04 ok well you've made your point. i was just trying to say as a user, and by user i really mean end user. zero linux skills what so ever, i prefer forums. there are a lot of people like me out there as well Jan 20 13:06:15 offlineimap rulez Jan 20 13:06:20 l4rs: you hit the nail on the head Jan 20 13:06:43 Stefan_C: kudos to you for discussing the issue rationally and listening to the responses. Jan 20 13:06:51 Stefan_C: windows doesnt stop gmane working :-) Jan 20 13:07:41 * rwhitby notes that it's now Sunday here, and goes to bed. Jan 20 13:07:41 i'll look into it XorA. for now i just use the threaded view to see what is going on. it isn't pretty but it gets the job done Jan 20 13:07:59 what the hell time zone are you in? it's 07:38 saturday where i am Jan 20 13:07:59 hm... well, ok gmane.org looks quite acceptable ;) Jan 20 13:07:59 so half the sites posted in the announcement aren't even live yet it would seem. Jan 20 13:08:09 Stefan_C: GMT+10:30 Jan 20 13:08:45 It was sunday 3 hours 15 minutes ago in Chatham Island. Jan 20 13:08:59 Zer0Her0: yeah, they go live at 02-11 (according to announcement) Jan 20 13:09:20 hehe, i'm your average reader scroll through for links to pictures and such, now reading the actual announcement :-D Jan 20 13:09:31 bye Jan 20 13:10:05 now that i know that there are developers in here, let me pose a question: how feasable would it be to port some sort of web hosting client on to an openmoko device so we can have a "webos" that lets us access and modify our data. Jan 20 13:10:36 apache, that's what it's called hehe. i forgot for a second, horribly medicated right now Jan 20 13:12:35 what i'm trying to say is i would like to overcome the limitations of having to sync my device, then use another application to edit my data, then sync my device again. seems horribly inefficent to me Jan 20 13:13:23 I think most people tuned out when you said webos Jan 20 13:13:35 i use google docs, gmail, and google calender, so i know a PIM is possible Jan 20 13:13:40 yes Jan 20 13:14:25 i guess i scared off too many people Jan 20 13:15:13 I think it has plenty of ram to run apache Jan 20 13:15:48 Stefan_C: you should be able to edit the data on the Neo Jan 20 13:16:06 Stefan_C: but there are numerous web servers in OE that will run happilly on Neo Jan 20 13:16:17 yea but what i'm talking about is editing the data on the neo via a web browser running on my PC ... in real time Jan 20 13:16:40 why not edit data on the neo as data ;) Jan 20 13:17:20 and i prefer syncing, what happens if someone steals my phone, or it is lost Jan 20 13:17:34 my data is all in one place, a very mobile device... Jan 20 13:18:06 well then you can offer a premium service to give you guys a steady stream of income, a service that backs up your moko Jan 20 13:18:53 or a premium service for people that want to edit data right on their phones, instead of taking the standard syncing route ;) Jan 20 13:19:13 though i think premium services are dumb, this is an open platform. everything should be open and free. Jan 20 13:19:20 agreed Jan 20 13:20:22 i do admit, it's an interesting idea. not one that appeals to me. Jan 20 13:20:43 i still can't get over the official price! Jan 20 13:21:16 Just wondering, will the Neo have SyncML support? Jan 20 13:22:12 but here is what i have in mind, you turn on your phone, launch an application, call it "web mode" for all i care, it essentially turns on apache. it pings a server that you guys host, i go to www.stefan_c.openmoko.com or whatever and login, now i have my contacts, text messages, etc. accessable to me on one home page. you guys can put adsense in front of this ui. there is your source of income Jan 20 13:22:42 yacc: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001505.html Jan 20 13:22:49 Stefan_C: why would you not want to have your contacts in, e.g., your e-mail client? Jan 20 13:23:28 koen: How does that answer if the PIM apps will have SyncML support? Jan 20 13:23:47 crap, wrong link Jan 20 13:23:51 yacc: "We're working with Funambol on SyncML and (soon) push email. -Sean" Jan 20 13:23:57 koen: I just ask, because the Mac can be brought to sync with SyncML compatible phones. Jan 20 13:24:11 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001593.html Jan 20 13:24:18 koen: collateral findings when I was bringing my Nokia to sync with Evolution. Jan 20 13:24:23 so_solid_moo: you're forgetting that the average person uses web mail, not a full blown email client. stop thinking as a developer and start thinking as a user. that's the main problem with you linux guys Jan 20 13:24:25 yacc: yep, why i care bout it too :) Jan 20 13:24:41 Jo :-) Jan 20 13:24:55 Stefan_C: before telling me what my problems are, why are you assuming my email client isn't web-based? Jan 20 13:25:03 Stefan_C: i'd agrue a PORTION of average users use webmail, most still use mail clients. Jan 20 13:25:47 Zer0Her0 and so_solid_moo: so why not offer a simple way of importing contacts via a users email client hehe. solve everyones issue Jan 20 13:25:47 Stefan_C, why do you want to access your phone over the openmoko site, when you can plug it to your pc via usb or bluetooth? Jan 20 13:26:01 Stefan_C: because sync "just works", and "import" doesn't ? Jan 20 13:27:07 14rs: how many people do you know actually plug their phone in to their computer? Jan 20 13:27:28 Stefan_C: plug in, or use bluetooth? Jan 20 13:27:53 Zer0Her0: sematics, you know what i mean Jan 20 13:27:59 i know half a dozen that use USB, and a dozen or that sync with bluetooth. Jan 20 13:28:09 Stefan_C: it has to be plugged in de-facto in order to be able to get to it Jan 20 13:28:17 Stefan_C: whether it's your solution or someone else's Jan 20 13:28:46 see that's weird, my generation (21-24) doesn't do that. then again i'm forgetting that when it comes to mobile phones americans are half a decade behind Jan 20 13:29:45 it charges via usb Jan 20 13:30:03 I wonder how people would get by without plugging it in sometimes Jan 20 13:30:18 haha Jan 20 13:30:36 well i hope there is an ac adapter ... i mean a lot of people around the world don't have pc's but do have mobile phones Jan 20 13:30:56 if they don't have a PC what does running apache gain them then Jan 20 13:30:58 ?!? Jan 20 13:31:12 webmail without a pc? Jan 20 13:31:19 contradictions, contradictions Jan 20 13:32:44 what i'm saying is i do not want to have to plug in my device, sync, open up an application, input/modify/delete data, sync again, just to do what i have to do. more and more of my workflow has been moved online and it would be grand if i could access the data on my phone via a website as well. Jan 20 13:33:31 what i am wondering when you connect a battery powered usb hub to the neo to use mobile wifi or so, if the neo will charge itself from the hubs batterys, so they will be empty very quick ;) Jan 20 13:34:23 Stefan_C: you want a sidekick ;) Jan 20 13:34:38 (besides, with egroupware it might work) Jan 20 13:34:42 Stefan_C: what if syncing what seamless as you work? much like most webapps that you have such high regard for? Jan 20 13:35:06 Stefan_C, but you dont need openmoko.org or any other (online) website to do that, if you let an webserver running on your neo, you can simply connect to it with a webbrowser by entering the neos ip Jan 20 13:35:22 also accessing the neo1973, may have major latency issues depending on network conditions, etc. Jan 20 13:35:54 Zer0Her0: how much bandwidth do you need to read your stored text messages lol? Jan 20 13:36:06 14rs: you try telling a user to enter in an IP address Jan 20 13:36:17 buz: hate hate hate sidekicks, love my nokia E61 Jan 20 13:36:32 the e61 speaks syncml Jan 20 13:36:35 just like neo does Jan 20 13:36:59 i suggest you look at egroupware, that has syncml server afaik Jan 20 13:38:02 buz i love gmail, i don't want to switch to anything else Jan 20 13:38:04 http://www.egroupware.org/index.php?page_name=wiki&wikipage=SyncML Jan 20 13:38:15 too bad, you cant really sync anything to gmail Jan 20 13:38:16 the java gmail app works wonders Jan 20 13:39:06 Stefan_C, is there really a difference in entering myphone.openmoko.org or 192.168.0.123? even for endusers? Jan 20 13:39:06 then port java to openmoko Jan 20 13:39:24 l4rs: it's trivially solved with ddns Jan 20 13:39:35 i think i could have that running in 1h Jan 20 13:39:38 i just don't want the openmoko to turn into a device that's by developers for developers. my eyes glaze over when linux people tell me how friendly their OS is, if they're going to make a phone with the same mentality then i'm scared Jan 20 13:39:53 kubuntu IS friendly Jan 20 13:39:58 buz: well good that it's easy to fix hehe, i wouldn't want to enter an IP Jan 20 13:40:00 friendlier than XP in some ways Jan 20 13:40:17 for the truly lazy, there's always the hosts file Jan 20 13:40:59 ..just chooses whom it is friendly to :) Jan 20 13:41:13 editing host files aren't friendly, trust me on that one lol Jan 20 13:41:18 buz: avahi Jan 20 13:41:39 friendlier than DDNS trust me Jan 20 13:41:58 ddns while tehcnically trivial has all sorts of gotchas Jan 20 13:42:38 well buz here is how i see it: if you don't do a web interface for the device then you'll have to create a binary for linux, mac, and windows folks in order to access the basic functions of the device. if you create a web UI however then it doesn't matter what platform that individual is using. Jan 20 13:42:40 buz: not to mention that a phone is being a double ppp link Jan 20 13:42:49 buz: so it isn't reachable from the net Jan 20 13:43:14 koen: you might be able to route around that but thats really nasty Jan 20 13:43:34 i know *I* could do it Jan 20 13:43:46 you can use a java app just fine Jan 20 13:43:47 buz: not the webmail using person without a computer Jan 20 13:43:57 yeah Jan 20 13:44:00 besides i dont see the point Jan 20 13:44:12 why should i run a server on a phone Jan 20 13:44:15 me neither Jan 20 13:44:18 other than for geek points Jan 20 13:45:05 and as someone pointed out on the mailing list, you only need an xml file to sync the neo to your mac Jan 20 13:45:32 with linux you already have opensync Jan 20 13:45:48 and I imagine windows has syncml stuff as well Jan 20 13:46:48 but let's honour the gods of NIH and put a webserver on it Jan 20 13:48:03 http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/euos2006/view/e_sess/9502 <-- why a web server running on a mobile is cool to me. duggest you dl the pdf Jan 20 13:48:23 i think you can use sync4j with outlook Jan 20 13:49:31 buz: sync4j is called funambol nowadays :) Jan 20 13:49:35 yes and since funambol is already on the neo, that should work just fine Jan 20 13:49:59 :) Jan 20 13:50:37 http://www.funambol.com/opensource/downloads.html Jan 20 13:50:44 outlook connector, ready for download Jan 20 13:51:48 darn...I'm not a developer, but if the 2nd gen device is coming out on the 9-11 launch, should I wait until then to buy? Jan 20 13:52:21 besides getting PAN to work is surely easier for lusers than just hitting connect in some app, right Jan 20 13:52:38 xipietotec: the second gen will get releases 9/11/2008 Jan 20 13:52:39 i dont think it will come out 9-11 Jan 20 13:53:12 2008 or 2007? Jan 20 13:53:46 i understand it will be announced in september 07 Jan 20 13:53:46 oh, 2008, okay Jan 20 13:54:00 and hopefully by then more handset makers will want to adopt the platform. i'm a bit uncomfortable with the fact that only FIC will make these devices Jan 20 13:54:01 but I'll be able to order a phone on 3-11? Jan 20 13:54:06 " 2007-09-11 Phase 2: Mass Market Sale Jan 20 13:54:06 Online sales will continue. We will also be available in a retail stores and selected carriers around the world. At this point, we hope your mom and dad will want to buy a Neo1973, too. Jan 20 13:54:06 The 2nd generation OpenMoko device will also be introduced at this time. We have something special in the works, but again, you will help shape this device. Jan 20 13:54:06 " Jan 20 13:54:14 announced != for sale Jan 20 13:54:17 yeah Jan 20 13:54:22 for sale probably in 1 year Jan 20 13:54:22 or later Jan 20 13:54:35 "So here it is, divided into 3 phases, that will repeat annually:" Jan 20 13:54:54 koen: it says "introduced" which implies "introduced to the market" to me Jan 20 13:54:56 second gen device better have wifi Jan 20 13:55:00 announced would be a better term Jan 20 13:55:09 OMG WIFI!!!!! Jan 20 13:55:22 i still think its weird to release one phone per year Jan 20 13:55:27 Stefan_C: or what? :D Jan 20 13:55:41 doesnt inspire much confidence really Jan 20 13:55:47 buz: i agree, everyone releases several phones per year Jan 20 13:55:57 * koen doesn't Jan 20 13:56:00 sannes: i'll kill a kitty Jan 20 13:56:03 hehe Jan 20 13:56:07 there goes 'everyone' Jan 20 13:56:26 everyone = the top 3: nokia, motorola, samsung Jan 20 13:56:27 everyone as in every phone supplier Jan 20 13:56:28 koen: is it 3G? Jan 20 13:56:42 what is 3g? Jan 20 13:56:53 look it up on wikipedia Jan 20 13:57:07 it's another revision of wireless that offers like 1-2 mbps down Jan 20 13:57:22 real world it gets close to a meg Jan 20 13:57:23 I know what 3g is Jan 20 13:57:37 oooo you said is it 3G Jan 20 13:57:40 if v2 has wifi and 3g, i'll be upgrading Jan 20 13:57:42 i thought you asked what 3G was Jan 20 13:57:43 I was responding to xipietotec's question Jan 20 13:57:54 yea my bad, again i'm heavily medicated lol Jan 20 13:58:20 koen: the Neo1973? Jan 20 13:59:21 * koen points to openmoko.com Jan 20 14:00:41 koen: it doesn't answer it entirely, but I looked it up on the wiki, it supports it Jan 20 14:01:12 "Ti GPRS (2.5G not EDGE)" looks like a good answer to me Jan 20 14:03:43 i just loathe the fact that it doesn't have a standard 3.5mm jack so i could use it as a multimedia device Jan 20 14:03:50 seems like a waste of such a beautiful screen Jan 20 14:03:59 can't you use an adapter? Jan 20 14:04:10 yea i can but adapters blow Jan 20 14:04:38 and we don't know if this thing has stero output yet Jan 20 14:06:46 * xipietotec presumes the 2nd gen will have more of the stuff that's in the iPhone Jan 20 14:07:50 you realize the iphone is the antiopenmoko Jan 20 14:07:56 Stefan_C: Incorrect, the OpenMoko is the iPhone killer ;) Jan 20 14:08:16 the openmoko isn't going to take off until it's 3rd revision i predict Jan 20 14:08:17 I'm just saying the 2nd gen will likely have a larger screen, camera, wifi, and maybe an accelerometer Jan 20 14:08:51 specs at this point don't matter, the openmoko looks like a kids toy. Jan 20 14:08:51 multitouch (not just for trivial zoom stuff) Jan 20 14:09:10 they need some serious industrial designers to help them out Jan 20 14:09:13 camera? pah Jan 20 14:09:44 Stefan_C: they'll have to change that at some point yeah, but I'm *waaayyy* excited about a phone that can integrate peaceably to my laptop =) Jan 20 14:10:23 xipietotec: my nokia works fantastic on my laptop already, i'm just excited about the concept of a platform that promotes hacking the living shit out of it Jan 20 14:10:35 i can request a feature, someone can develop it, i can install it, and i'm in heaven Jan 20 14:10:48 Stefan_C: that too =) my laptop runs ubuntu Jan 20 14:11:04 * xipietotec is busy building his SemanticLappy Jan 20 14:11:14 ah i run windows so i hope openmoko doesn't forget about us windows users too Jan 20 14:11:40 * aloril is exited about being able to hack it easily Jan 20 14:12:08 Stefan_C: they'll have to consider windows, it'll have built in Samba, etc. for talking to windows Jan 20 14:13:18 we should all pitch in to the wiki with desktop applications we want to see on this thing in mobile form. i can already think of three: FireFox, VLC and GAIM Jan 20 14:14:44 theres already a portable fx, that might be better than desktop build for it Jan 20 14:15:39 you mean webkit, gstreamer and gossip Jan 20 14:16:50 i'd like a super lightweight gecko based browser Jan 20 14:16:56 same Jan 20 14:18:04 koen: I think he means lynx, cat and irssi Jan 20 14:18:32 parag0n: 'lightweight' and 'gecko' don't match Jan 20 14:18:53 'lightweight' and 'webkit' do match Jan 20 14:19:30 koen: lightweight and gecko do, lightweight and firefox...no Jan 20 14:19:35 e.g., epiphany Jan 20 14:19:46 not on a 266MHz arm cpu Jan 20 14:19:55 and I tried firefox and minimo Jan 20 14:21:02 heh...most people will probably end up installing opera-mini Jan 20 14:21:30 what makes you think opera-mini will be available? Jan 20 14:21:53 koen: opera would likely port it Jan 20 14:22:03 wouldn't count on it Jan 20 14:22:16 what about scripting: none? python? something else? Jan 20 14:22:34 anything that's available in openembedded Jan 20 14:22:49 http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages Jan 20 14:22:53 take your pick Jan 20 14:23:34 what web-browser is it going to have by default? Jan 20 14:24:26 the question is "is it going to have a webbrowser by default?" Jan 20 14:24:32 oh Jan 20 14:24:40 it would be bloody stupid not to Jan 20 14:24:46 the out of box experiance is the most important Jan 20 14:24:48 I think it won't have a webbrowser when the dev program launches Jan 20 14:25:14 koen: sure, but I mean scripting bundled applications (or those are meant to be scripted by using dbus I guess) Jan 20 14:25:16 It will likely have one by the time it launches in stores Jan 20 14:25:44 the hell ... stores? Jan 20 14:25:53 * koen encourages people to work on webkit/gdk Jan 20 14:26:03 Stefan_C: read the announcement Jan 20 14:26:16 Stefan_C: see the roadmap, they'll be selling it in stores by 11-9-07 Jan 20 14:26:22 "2007-09-11 Phase 2: Mass Market Sale Jan 20 14:26:22 Online sales will continue. We will also be available in a retail stores and selected carriers around the world." Jan 20 14:26:47 for the people with a too short attention span: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/news-from-fic Jan 20 14:26:59 a condensed version of the announcement Jan 20 14:28:04 i thought the announcement was a good read Jan 20 14:30:31 so lets say someone as inexperianced as me gets one of these things really really early, how hard to do you think it will be to update to the latest version? Jan 20 14:33:10 application manager -> update -> ok Jan 20 14:33:14 or something similar Jan 20 14:35:24 i'm used to my nokia, there is an app, one button, and it downloads the latest firmware, installs it, phone reboots, i'm golden Jan 20 14:36:50 Stefan_C: my guess maybe even easier, "update all" instead of update each separately Jan 20 14:38:12 good Jan 20 14:39:40 350 is a bit steep for no wifi Jan 20 14:39:59 Stefan_C: as a poor windows user you've never really experienced the power of package-managers/application managers that have been the norm on *nix for some time Jan 20 14:40:04 then again it has that pretty screen Jan 20 14:40:30 Sencer: i've dual booted ubuntu before, i know what i'm missing. trust me Jan 20 14:42:06 i don't buy in to the whole open = better philosophy. better = better and for what i do windows is better. i am excited about openmoko being open however because it's about time someone thought of this. all of the major phone OS's out now such in one way or another. hopefully openmoko can take the best of all and make something amazing. if not then big deal, i always got nokia lol Jan 20 14:42:27 suck* Jan 20 14:43:26 I think $350 is good price for what it has, but then I'm accustomed to plain store prices Jan 20 14:43:29 Palm's PIM is gold, Windows Mobile has the best office suite and easiest developement model, Symbian has the stability of a fucking rock, Blackberry ... i never used one so i can't comment Jan 20 14:46:17 so how much will openmoko actually develop in house and how much will be developed by outsiders? by that i mean what applications will be built by openmoko and included in the device versus what are they going to ask other developers to create Jan 20 14:47:49 Stefan_C: it'll likely include many applications that developers have allready created Jan 20 14:51:11 Stefan_C: well.. I would say its Linux distribution that just happens to run on mobile phone ;-) Jan 20 14:52:25 i hope openmoko ends up more like ubuntu and less like debian then Jan 20 14:53:02 aloril: god i hope your wrong, the current state of linux makes me want to vomit Jan 20 14:53:31 Stefan_C: why exactly? Jan 20 14:53:50 there is no unity Jan 20 14:54:00 installing things is no where near as easy as it is in windows Jan 20 14:54:24 heh Jan 20 14:54:25 Stefan_C: um...I find installing things waaayy easier Jan 20 14:54:31 a trillion different distros Jan 20 14:54:36 sources.list Jan 20 14:54:44 what? seriously, for 95% of apps, you press a button in synaptic Jan 20 14:55:02 Stefan_C: a trillion different distros is absolutely fine, as they're made for different purposes, and with different aims Jan 20 14:55:11 exactly, no unity Jan 20 14:55:13 lol, Stefan_C. :D Jan 20 14:55:30 * yacc wonders if we should start a list of possible "cost" savings, targeted by country/network/calling plan? Jan 20 14:55:32 *wonder* Jan 20 14:55:40 windows is windows and you add applications to enhance functiaonlity Jan 20 14:56:00 linux is the same way with the kernal but regular people can't deal with that shit Jan 20 14:56:31 yep, i love it when i try to install an app for windows, and it wont because it doesnt work with sp2, or needs a patch to work on anything but win2k Jan 20 14:56:35 Stefan_C: regular people can't deal with installing windows either. If it didn't came pre-installed by OEMs... Jan 20 14:56:43 so linux on a phone is bad, because your computer has a zillion distros Jan 20 14:56:52 Stefan_C: dude, you lost the argument at the point where you said "kernal". Jan 20 14:56:56 koen: now you're getting it Jan 20 14:57:03 i'm saying don't call openmoko a distro Jan 20 14:57:15 it is.. Jan 20 14:57:19 because that implies more people will spin off and create their own distro Jan 20 14:57:24 ok, lets call it a 'fluffie bonze' Jan 20 14:57:45 does running a 'fluffie bonze' on your phone make you feel better? Jan 20 14:57:53 considering most of openmoko seems to be spun off from openembedded anyway... Jan 20 14:57:59 MDK: pong Jan 20 14:58:01 * koen starts a new 'fluffie bonze' Jan 20 14:58:04 i don't want to buy a phone and go "hmmm ubuntu, debian, opensuse, damn small linux, fedora, redhat, ... i don't know what to choose!" Jan 20 14:58:33 so you're scared of choice? Jan 20 14:58:41 yes, freedom is bad, comrade. Let the central commitee decide. Jan 20 14:58:49 so WE should be punished for your lack of decisiveness Jan 20 14:59:43 and you're just proving my point on the lack of unity. there should be a decision to use one distro, one flavor, and just expand on it instead of causing a shit ton of fragmentation and not going anywhere Jan 20 14:59:46 the amount of doublethink necessary, to justify that the very same thing that makes openmoko possible at all, is bad and should be avoided makes my head dizzy. Jan 20 14:59:47 besides, lately, liinuxes have been forming into 3 main groups... Debian based, Gentoo bbased, and Redhat based Jan 20 15:00:17 Stefan_C: but the kitchen Sink approach doesn't work for all applications Jan 20 15:00:26 you could call moko debian based Jan 20 15:00:50 Stefan_C: umm.. buying Neo1973 is buying PC with Linux preinstalled and prominently supported by vendor and vendor offering site where you can download applications for it Jan 20 15:00:59 you would not use a desktop OS to run a webserver, you would be better off using Puppy or Arch on an older machine, etc. Jan 20 15:01:01 so what happens when someone says "you know what i don't like the way openmoko does things, i'm going to make openuntu" that hurts the platform as a whole since it cause application break Jan 20 15:01:09 personally, i'm a fan of debian based, it has a huge percentage of the embedded market, has the best distro ever (ubuntu) Jan 20 15:01:10 whats the difference between debian and redhead bases distros? Jan 20 15:01:17 Stefan_C: no it doesn't Jan 20 15:01:20 it adds choices Jan 20 15:01:21 so you're saying you want a phone with vendor lockin? Jan 20 15:01:27 Stefan_C: i would suggest you use a Nokia N770 or N800 and you'll understand you should be scared of linux Jan 20 15:01:28 competition = good for you mr. consumer Jan 20 15:01:30 parag0n: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9048137234.html :) Jan 20 15:01:45 parag0n, do you have a fan-shirt ? Jan 20 15:01:48 l4rs: config file locations and package system Jan 20 15:01:50 l4rs: primarily the package management and binary package format (there are some config file layout issues) Jan 20 15:02:02 or maybe a flag ? Jan 20 15:02:07 see the Nokia N770 and N800 use maemo as it's platform. no one is trying to reinvent a platofrm. thank god Jan 20 15:02:09 rob_w, i wish Jan 20 15:02:13 Stefan_C: nobody forces you to install some unsupported distro over official FIC supported one Jan 20 15:02:40 that's true, what i'm saying is it would be nice if all the developers supported one platform versus many Jan 20 15:02:45 aloril: no, wrong, your forced to install OMG ZILLION DISTROS!!!!! Jan 20 15:03:03 Stefan_C: FIC is just supporting one platform. You'd be able to install Qtopia if you wanted, and who knows maybe Maemo or Arch or Puppy, or whatnot even Jan 20 15:03:04 there are way too many talented people working on linux, but not collaborating and making something beautiful Jan 20 15:03:13 but its going to come with OpenMoko Jan 20 15:03:15 Stefan_C, not true Jan 20 15:03:22 Stefan_C, youre simply wrong Jan 20 15:03:28 i give up Jan 20 15:03:31 Stefan_C: you're simply wrong and have no idea what you're talking about Jan 20 15:03:36 the manyness just makes you feel that .. Jan 20 15:03:58 so, Stefan_C, you think the concept of a free market is bad? Jan 20 15:03:59 everything on one distro is portable to another distro Jan 20 15:04:00 how am i wrong? if the ubuntu guys, fedora guys and suse guys got together and made one killer distro wouldn't that be great? Jan 20 15:04:14 no Jan 20 15:04:16 Stefan_C, you say that maemo is good for nokia 770. and i say that openmoko is good for nec1973 for the same reason. Jan 20 15:04:22 * buz thinks Stefan_C is simply trolling Jan 20 15:04:24 the myth of the 'one true way to do things' will always be a common theme :) Jan 20 15:04:39 buz you think a lot of things Jan 20 15:04:44 Stefan_C: ah, can't force developers to do that, but I think its likely that most want to support official distribution if they want wide usage for their program Jan 20 15:04:44 Stefan_C: No, it would be horrible. All a distro is, basically is a packaging of software around Linux, in certain configurations, that's it. Jan 20 15:05:02 Stefan_C, it wouldnt work, because different people have different ideas over what is brilliant Jan 20 15:05:07 packaging of software around a kernel Jan 20 15:05:10 wouldn't it be great if we all had one phone, one computer, and one car Jan 20 15:05:15 that would be KILLER!!! Jan 20 15:05:19 * koen points to debian/hurd, debian/bsd and nexenta Jan 20 15:05:22 well as of now the developer tools aren't even out yet so i'm not worrying Jan 20 15:05:40 alles zu fragmentiert. Man muß sich immer entscheiden Jan 20 15:05:42 Stefan_C: not out yet? Jan 20 15:05:53 are they? let me check Jan 20 15:05:56 does anybody even use debian bsd? its not like the bsd dont have their own good packaging system Jan 20 15:05:57 Stefan_C: openembedded has been out there for some years Jan 20 15:06:30 lemme look it up Jan 20 15:06:51 you ALWAYS have to decide Jan 20 15:06:59 even using windows is a decision Jan 20 15:07:39 there is about a dozen different windows versions you can choose from ^^ Jan 20 15:08:19 cue the "but they all run the same software" Jan 20 15:08:43 xp, xp home, xp professional, xp mediacenter Jan 20 15:08:54 yea but my binary will work on all of them Jan 20 15:09:03 if microsoft would concentrate on making one windows, it would be so great Jan 20 15:09:12 same shit for everyone, i fully support that Jan 20 15:09:16 If Ford would concentrate on making one car. Jan 20 15:09:19 they do, they concentrate on making applications a decade old work no matter what Jan 20 15:09:21 "and one windows to rule them all..." Jan 20 15:09:36 if you have the right version of .NET, DirectX, et Jan 20 15:09:39 *etc Jan 20 15:09:55 yeah and the graphics drivers crashes your kernel Jan 20 15:10:00 newb question, if someone didn't have a phone, could they use qemu to emulate the ARM? Jan 20 15:10:15 i'm just going to wait until this conversation gravitate away from windows versus linux. i hate these stupid little arguments Jan 20 15:10:17 boorad: yes, but why? Jan 20 15:10:33 boorad: qemu missed the actual gsm part and doesn't emulate everything Jan 20 15:10:36 not sure - how could I see the OpenMoko apps on my dev box? Jan 20 15:10:36 Stefan_C: yes we hate them too, now please stop Jan 20 15:10:38 Stefan_C, well, you brought it here Jan 20 15:10:42 boorad: using Xoo would be a lot faster Jan 20 15:11:29 koen: I have x86, can make a chroot env, but will I be able to see the apps as they would appear on the phone? Jan 20 15:11:45 Idea: OpenMoko should have some sort of podcast keeping us up to date on their work. Jan 20 15:11:52 koen: will look at Xoo Jan 20 15:11:53 video would be great! Jan 20 15:12:02 podcast? they wont even have a forum Jan 20 15:12:12 that sucks Jan 20 15:12:16 haha Jan 20 15:12:26 boorad: you still need a 300dpi display to display things properly Jan 20 15:12:45 podcasts suck Jan 20 15:12:53 koen: ah, I see. Jan 20 15:13:05 people who dont know english properly yapping about stuff nobody cares about Jan 20 15:13:15 koen: or just keep enough distance ;-) Jan 20 15:13:24 buz: but can use use OMG!! MANGA!!! avatars Jan 20 15:13:33 actually you can Jan 20 15:13:37 do so with email as well Jan 20 15:13:38 koen: any way to blow it up to 100dpi (existing screen) and deal with it being huge? Jan 20 15:13:40 buz: and post the same question to 20 different sections Jan 20 15:13:43 ... so you guys hate channel9? Jan 20 15:13:53 wtf is channel9 Jan 20 15:14:01 MS Dev, website Jan 20 15:14:03 http://msdn.channel9.com Jan 20 15:14:06 er -, Jan 20 15:14:12 uuuuhm Jan 20 15:14:17 i dont go near msdn Jan 20 15:14:26 boorad: the Xoo skin has a 480x640 resolution, which should handle that Jan 20 15:14:30 because it's a microsoft thing right? Jan 20 15:14:36 buz: you think podcast content, or the technology sucks? Jan 20 15:14:37 koen: ty Jan 20 15:14:40 because its Jan 20 15:14:44 Zer0Her0: both actually Jan 20 15:14:58 what technology would fill it's place? Jan 20 15:15:00 i meant because msdn is totally useless to me Jan 20 15:15:11 Zer0Her0: none Jan 20 15:15:14 boorad: one way or another an apps will look different on the actual device, but Xoo give you a good enough impression Jan 20 15:15:15 their podcasts rock however Jan 20 15:15:16 i dont care for radio Jan 20 15:15:16 Stefan_C, looks like a search site to me Jan 20 15:15:41 i must've spelled it wrong Jan 20 15:15:42 besides i read much faster than most people talk Jan 20 15:15:43 give me a sec Jan 20 15:16:01 buz: you can read while driving?! Jan 20 15:16:06 durrr i had it backwards Jan 20 15:16:08 http://channel9.msdn.com/ Jan 20 15:16:13 i prefer music while driving Jan 20 15:16:24 (and i rarely drive long distances) Jan 20 15:16:53 oh but i love their videos where they get developers up on a whiteboard, or show off a product demo. that's something video enables Jan 20 15:17:16 i care less about conversations on video Jan 20 15:17:20 i'd rather read those Jan 20 15:17:22 screencast is ok, that actually has some added value of a text Jan 20 15:17:35 but audio podcast is really useless to me Jan 20 15:17:39 agree Jan 20 15:17:43 but everything on the openmoko is free.. f people want to see how it works, they can download it right? Jan 20 15:17:49 yes Jan 20 15:17:58 not right now but eventually Jan 20 15:18:07 i think it's a great technology, i think the name is dumb and annoying and most content is useless, but i think the technology is very empowering Jan 20 15:18:15 koen: xnest or xephyr ? Jan 20 15:18:27 boorad: xephyr is better Jan 20 15:18:32 I like podcasts... they are perfect to be heard while coding without getting board Jan 20 15:18:44 Zer0Her0: most of the content is shit, but then again shit is relevant. what i find to be amazing you might find crap. we do agree that an openmoko podcast would rock yes? Jan 20 15:19:05 gimme a blog anyday Jan 20 15:19:05 Stefan_C: i personally rather they get the product out the door Jan 20 15:19:55 epsidoe 1: show us the outside of the device, take it apart, show us the inside, talk about why those hardware choices were made, and that's it. i'm not asking for hour long content here. a 10 minute short wouuld be great Jan 20 15:20:06 hello everyone Jan 20 15:20:33 a podcast / rss feed would be good Jan 20 15:20:42 yar Jan 20 15:20:43 Stefan_C: but if the device isn't finalized how are they supposed to discuss their decisions? Jan 20 15:20:50 ;) Jan 20 15:20:52 it is finalised Jan 20 15:20:56 they showed it off at ces Jan 20 15:20:56 especially if the neo has a video / rss player Jan 20 15:20:59 it is finalised from what i gather Jan 20 15:21:06 ah Jan 20 15:21:08 parag0n: that is one thing i reall ywant Jan 20 15:21:13 an offline rss reader on neo Jan 20 15:21:26 the announcement made it seem they were still taking suggestions Jan 20 15:21:27 it's a cell phone ... when would you be offline? Jan 20 15:21:33 i'll have a go Jan 20 15:21:34 for v2 yes Jan 20 15:21:49 i still wonder if the pcb has rounded edges Jan 20 15:21:51 rss is easy enough Jan 20 15:21:53 or if there will be empty space Jan 20 15:21:55 Stefan_C: if you're inside, if you're outside of coverage etc Jan 20 15:22:06 idk wtf a deadzone is lol Jan 20 15:22:09 buz: Empty space Jan 20 15:22:13 if you're on a train Jan 20 15:22:13 i'm in the country alot and basement of large buildings quite frequently. Jan 20 15:22:21 that just seems terribly stupid Jan 20 15:22:35 iand the connection keeps droppig out as you flit between towers Jan 20 15:22:37 gimme a smaller shell then Jan 20 15:22:48 pringles cantenna? Jan 20 15:23:07 buz: At least at the downside. You could not have a PCB around the hole. :) Jan 20 15:23:17 not sure if its really a hole Jan 20 15:23:19 yes you could Jan 20 15:23:21 the CES photos dont look like it Jan 20 15:23:23 buz: It is Jan 20 15:23:35 then someone really needs be hit with a clue bat Jan 20 15:23:42 and not a foam one Jan 20 15:24:37 buz: http://flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/351010014/in/set-72157594461502609/ Jan 20 15:25:10 oh yeah that one has ahole Jan 20 15:25:18 mhh Jan 20 15:25:28 make thing square and allow for internal usb wifi Jan 20 15:25:32 buz: I also don't like the hole. But think about all the cool kids with a lanyard on his phone. :) Jan 20 15:25:50 that might work with a samsung ultra Jan 20 15:25:50 Something like this might be useful for some programs: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/os-whistle/ Jan 20 15:25:54 a pda phone is simply to big Jan 20 15:26:30 i wonder what it would take to do a squareish case for it Jan 20 15:26:35 i like the hole, gives a grip for pulling it from pockets Jan 20 15:26:46 buz: Perhaps you can use the space for hardware enhancements if you'r carefully with a cutter, plastic and some glue Jan 20 15:26:53 idk but the first generation looks like something tinky winky would use Jan 20 15:27:06 heh Jan 20 15:27:45 Right, the v1 is even not my taste of a good design. Jan 20 15:28:13 So does anyone know if any sort of gcj / jre is being worked on? Jan 20 15:28:31 i wonder what custom molded plastic shell would cost Jan 20 15:29:12 fic is owned by formosa plastics right? one would think they could do that ;) Jan 20 15:29:18 gcr: I don't think so. All java people cry for it but nobody of them like to do the work. Jan 20 15:29:19 All I care about are the internals right now, but they better be able to make a stylish phone or nobody will be seeing our apps. Jan 20 15:29:35 buz: a few cents for the shell, but $15k+ for the tool Jan 20 15:30:07 buz: I have friends who do that for a living, getting one made is affordable.. Jan 20 15:30:36 buz: they have "toys" they made so it's not like it'd cost that much or take too much time, if they can tinker with it Jan 20 15:30:44 * stefan_schmidt sees some cases projects coming. Nice. Jan 20 15:30:48 what about python or ruby. The ruby-gtk stuff is super productive Jan 20 15:30:49 define affordable Jan 20 15:30:58 buz: sorry I don't really know :( Jan 20 15:31:09 buz, if other people feel the samee, you could do the design and take it to FIC Jan 20 15:31:20 i suck as designer Jan 20 15:31:37 my concept would be fully black, round edge box Jan 20 15:31:49 gcr: Take a look at openembedded.org to see what packages are already in progress. Mostly it will be a simple recompile for openmoko Jan 20 15:32:02 cool, I will Jan 20 15:32:32 gcr: Last time I checked they had 4000 packages in the buildsystem. Jan 20 15:32:57 i actually saw a rapid prototyping thing once where you could download a cad thingie design your case and get it made for like 70$ or so Jan 20 15:33:00 I know I had python on my Zaurus 5000D, so .... Jan 20 15:33:29 Is bitbake related to bitkeeper or bitmover? Jan 20 15:33:51 jjazz: No Jan 20 15:34:09 Have to go, cu later Jan 20 15:34:12 stefan_schmidt: thanks Jan 20 15:34:29 yeah, python and ruby are both on there Jan 20 15:35:03 Now to get the gtk bindings working.... Jan 20 15:35:14 python gtk bindings not working? Jan 20 15:35:26 I didn't see a package for them yet Jan 20 15:35:31 Are they there? Jan 20 15:35:38 Dunno. Jan 20 15:37:30 i feel really bad i didn't stop by openmoko's booth at CES Jan 20 15:38:19 not there? http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/python/python-pygtk2_2.10.3.bb Jan 20 15:41:06 <-- moron Jan 20 15:41:09 ty Jan 20 15:41:27 Didn't learn how to use the browser yet :-) Jan 20 15:42:20 Is that roadmap believed to remain accurate? Jan 20 15:42:31 we know as much as you lol, hopefully yes Jan 20 15:42:59 Stefan_C: Well, you never know ... sometimes there are unusually knowledgeable people in these channels. :) Jan 20 15:44:10 Odin-LAP: those reviewed it before announcement was made Jan 20 15:44:15 can someone explain to me how this is different from trolltech's greenphone? Jan 20 15:44:37 Stefan_C: It's all open, and it's cheaper. 8) Jan 20 15:45:22 * Odin-LAP ponders the possibility of in-phone encryption. Jan 20 15:45:35 so openmoko is 100% free (in both senses of the word aka cost and freedom) Jan 20 15:45:51 99.5% Jan 20 15:46:19 Stefan_C: It seems the GSM and GPS modules are not. :p Jan 20 15:46:22 it depends on your definition of freedom Jan 20 15:46:43 buz: By what definition isn't it? Jan 20 15:47:24 i seriously want to know why they went usb 1.1 and not 2.0 Jan 20 15:47:42 yea i can't believe how expensive the greenphone is, and the greenphone is not meant to be used in a "live/production environment" Jan 20 15:48:13 GPS probably will be 100% free eventually, GSM is separate system and less likely to be freed Jan 20 15:48:43 Stefan_C: SoC defines what is supported and what they use supports 1.1 only Jan 20 15:48:47 hey Odin-LAP Jan 20 15:49:05 xorAxAx: Why, hello. ;) Jan 20 15:50:45 Odin-LAP: why what? :) Jan 20 15:50:59 what do you guys think of this: http://www.tengo.net/ as a form of user input Jan 20 15:51:11 using a pretty old processor as main CPU which has no idea of USB 2.0 Jan 20 15:51:23 xorAxAx: Just a kind of "oh, you're here?" :p Jan 20 15:51:32 Odin-LAP: i am everywhere Jan 20 15:51:59 if 100%free==public domain then it isnt Jan 20 15:52:03 Widely, perhaps. Nobody is everywhere. Jan 20 15:52:58 Odin-LAP: hehe Jan 20 15:53:08 well spotted Jan 20 15:53:10 buz: Fair enough. But defining only public domain to be free is quite silly... Jan 20 15:53:33 public domain is only free if your state is anarchistic Jan 20 15:53:48 otherwise the copyright laws may make it unfree again because you dont have any license Jan 20 15:54:38 thats why its generally not very sensible to choose "public domain" as a way of releasing software Jan 20 15:54:38 http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ <-- I find this a curious input method... Jan 20 15:54:46 Odin-LAP: ask cjb about it :) Jan 20 15:55:54 xorAxAx: Why isn't public domain sensible? Jan 20 15:56:01 * Odin-LAP is just being curious, for the record. Jan 20 15:57:07 Odin-LAP: maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain#Public_domain_and_the_Internet has some interesting points Jan 20 15:57:34 Odin-LAP: that input method gave me a headache Jan 20 15:57:35 esp. republishing, essential for FOSS, is not always possible Jan 20 15:57:48 Stefan_C: according to cjb, you will get used to it :) Jan 20 15:58:06 Stefan_C: Heh. I find it interesting... :p Jan 20 15:58:29 (Tried it on a PC/laptop.) Jan 20 15:59:08 i like tengo's better Jan 20 15:59:13 it just makes sense to me Jan 20 15:59:45 xorAxAx: If it's *actually* public domain, it can always be republished, even when somebody else has used it... Jan 20 16:00:00 here is a tengo review by OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/story.php/15389/Review-TenGO-2.0-and-TenGO-Thumb Jan 20 16:00:02 xorAxAx: The headache is in finding what really is PD... Jan 20 16:00:44 Stefan_C: Is there a free implementation of it? Jan 20 16:01:10 i'm sure something couuld be worked out, doubt they patented it Jan 20 16:01:40 "TenGO and related technologies are protected by patent applications in USA and worldwide." Jan 20 16:01:42 Hmmm... Jan 20 16:01:59 http://www.tengo.net/tengo_intellectualproperty.html (source) Jan 20 16:03:04 well like i said i'm sure something can be worked out, lisencing deal and what not. frankly that input method is brilliant. if i'm forced to hunt and pec or deal with a horrible hand writing recognition engine i'm going to be upset Jan 20 16:03:47 Stefan_C: thought you were already upset that it ran linux ;) Jan 20 16:04:37 nope Jan 20 16:04:41 hehe Jan 20 16:04:52 Stefan_C: It's unlikely to be included in OpenMoko if it isn't done in free software ... re: the wi-fi thing. Jan 20 16:05:21 Odin-LAP: and if nobody does it ... Jan 20 16:05:27 s/and/or/ Jan 20 16:05:27 xorAxAx meant: Odin-LAP: or if nobody does it ... Jan 20 16:06:06 xorAxAx: That goes without saying. ;) Jan 20 16:07:04 Odin-LAP: many people forget that and think that FOSS comes from the broad community and they dont have to care if anybody of that guys is actually interested in it Jan 20 16:07:39 xorAxAx: True. Jan 20 16:08:39 sean moss-pultz' holidays in asia: http://web.archive.org/web/20020602161818/www.moss-pultz.com/asia/index.html Jan 20 16:11:10 wicked Jan 20 16:11:22 always wanted to travel, broke college student tho Jan 20 16:18:04 moss looks almost like a college friend that moved to Malaysia a year or two back Jan 20 16:28:10 cheers hrw Jan 20 16:28:22 hi Jan 20 16:28:27 mickeyl: nice roadmap Jan 20 16:28:38 thanks. i sincerely hope we can realize that Jan 20 16:28:55 ditto! Jan 20 16:32:16 Wow, lots of talk Jan 20 16:32:27 hey Mickeyl, bet your glad the announcement is out. Jan 20 16:32:31 NDAs suck Jan 20 16:32:32 :-) Jan 20 16:34:59 mickeyl: I had to write about openmoko today but decided to not ;D Jan 20 16:35:11 "had to"? :) Jan 20 16:35:38 noidd: my english is not native Jan 20 16:36:07 noidd: no kiddin Jan 20 16:36:08 g Jan 20 16:36:14 hrw: your english sounds french :) Jan 20 16:36:27 noidd: what's your email address again, btw.? Jan 20 16:36:44 hrw: I apologise. Jan 20 16:36:48 red@unixfu.com Jan 20 16:37:04 thanks Jan 20 16:37:07 on the mailing list i'm subscribed to something else Jan 20 16:37:17 if that matters Jan 20 16:37:37 Actually - his first language could be ASL. Jan 20 16:37:53 "his"? Jan 20 16:38:09 ASL doesn't have any way to express a difference between "Has to" "Needs to" "must" etc Jan 20 16:38:15 ah Jan 20 16:38:28 * noidd makes an assumption that may burn him :-) Jan 20 16:38:37 yeah, all those SLs Jan 20 16:38:46 they should learn a united one Jan 20 16:38:59 maybe one which can differentiate such things :) Jan 20 16:39:40 once, an affected girl told me that its not easy to get into contact with people from other nations like that Jan 20 16:40:12 so they have either a lot of misunderstandins or need to translate each other Jan 20 16:43:04 So, my million dollar question of the day is this Jan 20 16:43:34 noidd: "No." That'll be $1M thank you.. Jan 20 16:43:37 heh Jan 20 16:43:49 no matter, I need to think through the question before I ask it Jan 20 16:44:12 mickeyl: any idea when 'hacker lunchbox' content will be published? Jan 20 16:44:42 btw Mickeyl, now I see the names of the classes I understand why you didn't push the classes upstream Jan 20 16:46:11 A quick question: Would it be feasible to do AES-CTR on the Neo1973? Jan 20 16:47:41 whats aesctr Jan 20 16:47:44 ctr? Jan 20 16:47:54 you mean ctc? Jan 20 16:49:22 LittleIdiot: No, CTR. Counter mode Rijndael... Jan 20 16:50:13 noidd: yeah, that Jan 20 16:50:18 s too specific for upstream Jan 20 16:50:35 hrw: no idea. i can disclosure that it has to do with JTAG and Serial though Jan 20 16:52:42 Congrats for making Slashdot... Jan 20 16:53:14 What made Slashdot? Jan 20 16:53:24 http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/20/1551200 Jan 20 16:53:36 OpenMoko Schedule Announced Jan 20 16:54:02 The phone looks very nice. What carriers will it be compatible with? Jan 20 16:54:28 all GSM carriers Jan 20 16:54:56 i've really been waiting a long time for a phone that i can hack myself Jan 20 16:55:10 because every phone on the market has its own annoyances in the user interface Jan 20 16:55:10 Pardon my ignorance, but which are those? Or if it's easier, what major carriers won't be compatible? Jan 20 16:55:25 TheSHAD0W: Why do you assume there will be? Jan 20 16:55:47 I recall something about certain carriers being CDMA only. Jan 20 16:56:05 TheSHAD0W: which country are you in? Jan 20 16:56:10 US. Jan 20 16:57:10 TheSHAD0W: http://www.google.com/search?as_q=us+gsm+carriers Jan 20 16:57:42 Is there a showstopper for Java on OpenMoko? Jan 20 16:58:09 Sencer: Thank you. Jan 20 16:58:38 Odin-LAP: No. Jan 20 16:58:59 Why isn't it on the software list? :/ Jan 20 16:59:12 So for the US, Cingular and T-Mobile will be compatible. Jan 20 16:59:44 Hm. It doesn't say what Nextel uses... Jan 20 17:00:03 Are there any plans to have OpenMoko be interoperable with the effort that's been put in to development on the Maemo platform? Jan 20 17:00:13 Looks like Nextel offers GSM. Jan 20 17:00:20 Odin-LAP: Because of all the people that want java, nobody so far has been willing to work on it Jan 20 17:01:09 If the phone's popular, Sun will port Java to it themselves. Jan 20 17:01:21 Sencer: Hm. Fair enough. It'd be the ME version, though, right? Jan 20 17:03:08 TheSHAD0W: nextel will never do gsm Jan 20 17:03:17 paulproteus: plans yes, but that'll have to be considered when both platforms are equally mature. Jan 20 17:03:18 Stefan_C: Really? Jan 20 17:03:20 Odin-LAP: I would assume that ME is a more likely candidate, yes. Jan 20 17:03:45 Sencer: I thought maybe the pure-GPL licencing of that was an issue for distribution. Jan 20 17:04:22 TheSHAD0W: 110% sure nextel will never do gsm Jan 20 17:04:29 Okie. Jan 20 17:04:43 Stefan_C: Why? Jan 20 17:04:44 the only gsm providers in amera are cingular and t-mobile Jan 20 17:04:50 america Jan 20 17:05:03 Mmm, looks like there are some Nextel phones that can hop on GSM international networks, but I don't think they're selling them any more. Jan 20 17:05:05 * Odin-LAP not worried, actually, the providers here *only* do GSM... Jan 20 17:05:05 sprint-nextel (they merged) as well as verizon use CDMA Jan 20 17:05:39 The FIC OpenMoko phone is GSM, right? Jan 20 17:05:39 Too bad, I kinda like the walkie-talkie feature. Jan 20 17:05:48 paulproteus: Yes. Jan 20 17:06:03 Thank goodness. (-: Jan 20 17:06:08 TheSHAD0W: "walkie-talkie"? Jan 20 17:06:16 push to talk Jan 20 17:06:16 yea PTT Jan 20 17:06:20 one has to consider though that maemo has a fundamentally different UI paradigm Jan 20 17:06:41 Isn't PTT possible in GSM? Jan 20 17:06:41 what was that paradigm? i missed it Jan 20 17:06:49 according to Nokia they want to bring the desktop experience to an internet tablet. which is nice and all, but it doesn't work on a phone. Jan 20 17:07:37 you haven't used one of the latest nokia phones have you ... it's full html Jan 20 17:08:16 no i didn't. been using SIEMENS for years and Sony Ericsson since Jan 20 17:08:16 i was specifically talking about maemo though Jan 20 17:08:16 which isn't deploy in any phone Jan 20 17:08:20 (as far as I know) Jan 20 17:08:26 why would it be ... it isn't a phone platform Jan 20 17:08:28 i'd like to see j2me on the neo... maybe we should make a development bounty system, where people pledge money for people to develop the features they want Jan 20 17:08:37 exactly what i was trying to say. Jan 20 17:08:46 [regarding a possible fusion or synergy] Jan 20 17:09:18 wtf are you trying to say? Jan 20 17:09:26 heh Jan 20 17:09:35 read the log, dude Jan 20 17:09:38 Are there any plans to have OpenMoko be interoperable with the effort that's been put in to development on the Maemo platform? Jan 20 17:09:41 paulproteus: plans yes, but that'll have to be considered when both platforms are equally mature. Jan 20 17:09:44 ... Jan 20 17:10:15 * paulproteus grins Jan 20 17:10:31 mickeyl, To be clear, you mean Maemo is currently more mature, yes? Jan 20 17:10:43 absolutely. it's been developed for at least 2 years now Jan 20 17:10:50 OpenMoko is 6 months old Jan 20 17:10:54 mickeyl, And I appreciate the thoughts on "Maemo is a portable PC" vs. "OpenMoko is a cell phone". Jan 20 17:11:01 I'm curious on how their gps work is going Jan 20 17:11:16 and how much of that can be reused Jan 20 17:12:01 * koen is tempted to write something to use libgpsdbt and libgpsmgr Jan 20 17:12:26 i will look closely at least at both their GPS framework and their Alarm framework Jan 20 17:12:33 * CM is tempted to take his thumb out of his ass and actually do anything at all Jan 20 17:12:41 Heeh. :p Jan 20 17:13:28 * Odin-LAP wishes for the ability to do short-range voice communications outside the GSM network. Jan 20 17:13:41 I *think* that could be possible with OpenMoko... 8) Jan 20 17:14:23 Although the performance of Bluetooth is an open question... Jan 20 17:14:26 Will there be a web browser on the Neo1973? (I don't see it mentioned anywhere in the website. The 128MB RAM is a bit worrying) Jan 20 17:15:03 kripkenstein: Worrying? If you want firefox maybe it would be.. ;) Jan 20 17:15:42 CM: yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking, Firefox ;) ... but what alternatives are there, for a GTK+ setting, really? Jan 20 17:15:54 WebKit Jan 20 17:16:27 koen: last I checked (few months ago), there wasn't an up-to-date port of webkit to Gtk+ Jan 20 17:16:37 What about "other Gecko"? Jan 20 17:16:49 kripkenstein: there is now Jan 20 17:16:56 both of webcore and webkit Jan 20 17:17:03 koen: oh, that is excellent news, then Jan 20 17:17:44 so a webkit-based browser would make the most sense, for 128MB of RAM Jan 20 17:17:56 even for 32mb ram Jan 20 17:18:25 koen: you are referring to gtk-webcore? Jan 20 17:18:47 kripkenstein: both to gtk-webcore and webkit/gdk Jan 20 17:19:01 I've seen both running on a n770 Jan 20 17:19:09 * mickeyl puts more bets on webkit/gdk + that maemo guy's patches Jan 20 17:19:24 i just can't remember his name Jan 20 17:19:27 *sigh* Jan 20 17:19:50 the last gtk-webcore release is 2004, it says on sourceforge... what am I missing? Jan 20 17:19:57 mickeyl: zecke has webkit working inside sugar Jan 20 17:20:26 kripkenstein: http://gtk-webcore.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/gtk-webcore/ Jan 20 17:20:54 hey Jan 20 17:20:55 mickeyl: alp in #openmoko L) Jan 20 17:21:02 s/L/:/ Jan 20 17:21:02 koen meant: mickeyl: alp in #openmoko :) Jan 20 17:21:13 someone should post this on digg Jan 20 17:21:23 if it has not been done already Jan 20 17:21:49 wow, big chan Jan 20 17:22:03 koen: oops. thanks Jan 20 17:22:07 koen: ok, thanks Jan 20 17:22:23 mickeyl: I only found out yesterday :) Jan 20 17:23:37 koen: I suspect I tricked him to join since I was talking about #openmoko in #muine ;) Jan 20 17:25:23 I read on the page that the phone will only have usb 1.1 and no wlan, is this right? Jan 20 17:25:39 DrStrangelove: Yes Jan 20 17:25:41 correct Jan 20 17:25:43 Oooh, I'm in extacy looking at that Dasher demo. Jan 20 17:26:43 :( Jan 20 17:26:46 too bad Jan 20 17:27:39 perhaps the 2nd version will have such things Jan 20 17:28:19 zipola: You mean these? http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/images/newdasher.gif Jan 20 17:28:35 That one. Jan 20 17:28:55 Looks crazy, but it would be fun to try it Jan 20 17:29:09 whee Jan 20 17:29:10 hi. is the openmoko code available in a public repository? Jan 20 17:29:20 just finishing my first electronic project of the year Jan 20 17:29:21 not yet Jan 20 17:29:23 new bench PSU Jan 20 17:29:27 salty-horse: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html Jan 20 17:29:30 CM: What's best is that it support different alphabets and languages. Jan 20 17:29:35 to test my second project of the year - my midi controller - heh Jan 20 17:29:44 zipola: I noticed. I want åäö ;) Jan 20 17:30:18 I'll do fine with just ä and ö :) Jan 20 17:30:42 koen, read that already :) Jan 20 17:31:16 i lost my wireless mouse Jan 20 17:32:04 Hehe.. Bluetooth mouse for the Neo would be weird Jan 20 17:32:52 Hmmmm... Jan 20 17:32:59 but a wireless keyboard would be nice Jan 20 17:33:04 I've seen this weird trackball meant for laptops... Jan 20 17:33:19 It fits on the index finger like a ring and you manipulate it w/ your thumb... Jan 20 17:33:35 It was wired, but I suppose you could build one w/ Bluetooth instead... Jan 20 17:33:54 Then all you'd need is a Bluetooth heads-up display. 8v)~ Jan 20 17:34:17 will there be tools to run openmoko software without the phone hardware? Jan 20 17:36:15 you mean an emulator? Jan 20 17:36:35 salty-horse: Yes Jan 20 17:37:02 * koen presents Xoo Jan 20 17:37:04 yes, Stefan_C Jan 20 17:37:09 curious, will this phone support EVDO? Jan 20 17:37:24 no Jan 20 17:37:24 * gerrynjr is hoping to ditch a sprint ppc6700 Jan 20 17:37:27 it's a gsm phone Jan 20 17:37:28 oh well 8-/ Jan 20 17:37:35 was hoping for dual band support Jan 20 17:37:42 gerrynjr: it's quad band. Jan 20 17:37:53 DrStrangelove: To add to the insult, it will be unpowered USB ;) Jan 20 17:37:58 well, by dual band, was hoping for GSM _and_ EVDO support Jan 20 17:38:04 CM, zipola: Dasher already does those, actually. Jan 20 17:38:05 what are the advantages of EVDO verses GSM? Jan 20 17:38:07 I probably used the wrong terminology Jan 20 17:38:22 evdo is a cdma thing Jan 20 17:38:24 Mortimus: worse operators?-) Jan 20 17:38:59 both have bad operators Jan 20 17:39:09 i mean 10c for a text message Jan 20 17:39:14 EVDO is pretty much just sprint/nextel, right? Jan 20 17:39:20 verizon too Jan 20 17:39:27 LoRez: and verizon Jan 20 17:39:34 Mortimus: The U.S. has miserable cell operators in general. Jan 20 17:39:46 ewww Jan 20 17:39:54 yea and it spreading to the ISP's Jan 20 17:40:49 blocking, throttling ports and wanting to have a tiered network Jan 20 17:41:06 heh, i got a good deal w/ sprint Jan 20 17:41:20 US likes stagnation and war Jan 20 17:41:20 well a shit ton of spectrum is going to be unleashed once we go digital ... but fuck me if that won't be pushed back another 6 times Jan 20 17:41:25 500 minutes, unlimited data 500 txts nights at 6pm Jan 20 17:41:32 for 30 bucks Jan 20 17:41:50 mhh slashbots are at it Jan 20 17:41:59 what are taxes Jan 20 17:42:10 i pay like 3 bucks on taxes Jan 20 17:42:20 oh lord 3 bux! Jan 20 17:42:21 3 bucks Jan 20 17:42:27 yacc, the phone does not match to my needs. I need a phone with wlan or such stuff. and I think this is not esoteric hardware today Jan 20 17:42:27 i know someone that pays 10 bucks Jan 20 17:42:31 same plan Jan 20 17:42:43 ppc6700 has wifi 8- Jan 20 17:42:44 0 Jan 20 17:42:49 Nokia E61 has wifi Jan 20 17:42:52 DrStrangelove: Why do you need wlan? (I noticed that I almost never use WLAN on my phone) Jan 20 17:42:56 but.. crummy windows Jan 20 17:43:08 skype, for exaple Jan 20 17:43:09 DrStrangelove: The problem is the lack of power-efficient chipsets with free drivers. Jan 20 17:43:14 DrStrangelove: Or put differently, do you have already a phone with wlan and use it? Jan 20 17:43:21 i use wlan all the time Jan 20 17:43:24 for voip Jan 20 17:43:28 me too Jan 20 17:43:31 i have a local number in the UK Jan 20 17:43:33 same here Jan 20 17:43:58 DrStrangelove: Not the VoIP discussion yet again. => cheap hotspots are rare in most places on this planet ;) Jan 20 17:44:13 my university is blanketed Jan 20 17:44:17 unsecure networks are common in the us Jan 20 17:44:19 yacc, I would use it for constant synchronizing of podcasts and schedules. Jan 20 17:44:25 I dont want to start a flamewar ;) Jan 20 17:44:58 but I think the power problem will be much bigger than the wlan stuff Jan 20 17:44:58 paulproteus brings up podcasts as well, my nokia has a podcasting app that grabs podcasts if it detects my homes wifi network Jan 20 17:45:01 then again, w/ unlimited data, who needs wifi... Jan 20 17:45:18 because even EVDO is 5x slower than my wifi connection Jan 20 17:45:18 Then again, with wifi, who needs data over the cell network. (-; Jan 20 17:45:48 have to every tried to adjust your up/down speeds Jan 20 17:45:51 now EVDO revision C, which is called UMB, is supposed to be as good as 100 mbit ethernet Jan 20 17:45:51 Anyway, we won't get it on openmoko, so no big point discussing it here. I know I want it, and have good reasons. (-: Jan 20 17:45:58 paulproteus: you can do that with BT well enough. The only benefit of WLAN is that it's offered on-the-road. Jan 20 17:46:00 the linux phones I saw had to recarche every one or two days Jan 20 17:46:06 thats a problem Jan 20 17:46:06 that's not supposed to materialize until 08-09 tho Jan 20 17:46:19 yacc, I can't do that with Bluetooth unless I also have Bluetooth IP connectivity.... Jan 20 17:46:37 DrStrangelove: most phones today don't last more than 3 days without needing to be plugged in Jan 20 17:46:56 ppc gives me a week Jan 20 17:47:00 stefan_C, didnt notice... Jan 20 17:47:14 7 days but i NEVER use it I lose it Jan 20 17:47:15 paulproteus: And Bluetooth IP connectivity costs you a EUR10 BT USB dongle. Jan 20 17:47:16 Oh yes, I installed Dasher and it works really nicely. Jan 20 17:47:44 my old blackberry gave me 6--7 days, at least Jan 20 17:48:01 yacc, I'm new to the smart phone stuff, can you explain what you mean? Jan 20 17:48:12 yacc, Oh, I see, I plug that dongle into a laptop that has wifi and then share it via BT. Jan 20 17:48:18 But then my laptop has to be on.... Jan 20 17:48:28 yes Jan 20 17:49:26 you could always get an access point with usb port Jan 20 17:49:43 paulproteus: or you plug it into your home internet gateway box. ;) Jan 20 17:50:01 Well, I'm going to move to San Francisco soon, and Google plans to give free wifi there over 802.11, so maybe I should ask them to also give free Internet over BT. (-; Jan 20 17:50:15 Anyway, I'm just kidding around. (-: Jan 20 17:50:16 good idea Jan 20 17:51:26 verizon people can cancel their plans soon due to TXT messaging hike Jan 20 17:53:14 paulproteus: The question is if the free wifi will be IP-level connected to the Internet. Going trough a http proxy breaks many of "our" uses for a Wifi :( Jan 20 17:53:43 hi paulproteus Jan 20 17:53:45 It's Google providing it, they're full of geeks. I'm sure e.g. ssh will work. Jan 20 17:53:52 Hi WillySilly! Jan 20 17:54:18 Figured I'd see you in here sooner or later Jan 20 17:54:35 WillySilly, Hah, why's that? Jan 20 17:55:07 Just a gut feeling Jan 20 17:55:13 * paulproteus grins Jan 20 17:55:38 I've been trying to figure out what the next phone I get will be. Looks like it might be a Series 60 by Nokia for now, and an OpenMoko in a year or two. Jan 20 17:55:56 But I'm also planning to turn my Nintendo DS into a wifi-enabled PDA, which might decrease my need for wifi. (-: Jan 20 17:56:10 Anyway, I'll be back in ca. 30m. Jan 20 17:56:28 I have my Nokia 770 Jan 20 17:57:04 does 770 work as a phone too? Jan 20 17:57:20 no Jan 20 18:04:30 Mortimus: only for VoIP ;) Jan 20 18:12:42 lists.openmoko.org is slow... Jan 20 18:12:59 slashdot linked to it Jan 20 18:13:10 yeah, I'm sure this channel's gonna get hammered. Jan 20 18:17:04 passed ##windows now: http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&query=&num=40 Jan 20 18:19:37 Damn, I wish they included a wifi chipset in that phone ... Jan 20 18:20:00 It really sucks that it's on slashdot. Jan 20 18:20:37 There's gonna be LOTS who will want to get it at the developer release now, and there'll be a queue, and I'll never get one :( Jan 20 18:21:02 ozamosi: March is not that bad either. Jan 20 18:21:07 has signups begun yet? Jan 20 18:21:18 yacc: I'm talking about march Jan 20 18:21:26 ozamosi: Hoping for it to stay 'secret' for 3 month was kinda wishful thinking ... Jan 20 18:21:35 ozamosi: March should have open sales. Jan 20 18:21:35 somebody is going to get his mailbox slashdotted ;-) Jan 20 18:21:36 tnt__: of course! :) Jan 20 18:21:52 yacc: yes, open. But there's still a limited supply. Jan 20 18:22:16 ozamosi: I doubt they run out in < 24h (unless they underestimate by big margin) Jan 20 18:22:22 is there a soft emulator? Jan 20 18:22:31 ozamosi: they out-produce even /. (I think it's a Linux version of a Winmobile being sold in China, right?) Jan 20 18:23:08 aloril: with my luck, I'm sure my internet connection will break just until they run out :( Jan 20 18:24:54 ozamosi: Maybe they should take pre-sale with a down payment, so they can anticipate how many to produce ... Jan 20 18:24:56 cying: openmoko specific stuff will be released at 2007-02-11 (according to announcement), other stuff is available now Jan 20 18:25:08 other stuff? Jan 20 18:25:15 aloril: like GTK or openembedded? Jan 20 18:25:15 http://projects.o-hand.com/xoo/ http://www.openembedded.org/ Jan 20 18:25:24 www.gtk.org Jan 20 18:26:13 ooooh Jan 20 18:26:45 http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/ Jan 20 18:26:48 thanks aloril / koen Jan 20 18:26:59 is it all compilable out of the box? Jan 20 18:27:09 or need some hacking to set up a dev environment? Jan 20 18:27:47 woo linux cell phone...finally! :D Jan 20 18:28:13 init_alx: open linux cell phone ... (linux cell phone already exists ;) Jan 20 18:28:22 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001505.html Jan 20 18:28:33 tnt__: :D Jan 20 18:29:18 :) Jan 20 18:29:20 thanks Jan 20 18:29:22 Which GSM bands are supported? I don't see this information listed anywhere. Jan 20 18:29:35 all 4 Jan 20 18:29:40 EXcellent. Jan 20 18:30:14 someone ought to build a vmware image Jan 20 18:30:28 That sets it ahead of the greenphone which doesn't work well with one of the two major us carriers, given it lacks GSM850. Jan 20 18:30:52 * aloril sees missinformation of qreenphone being open at /. Jan 20 18:31:38 LoRez: So when will there be a UMTS/HSDPA 1900/2100 version? :D Jan 20 18:31:40 at the time of the presentation the greenphone wasn't open and qtopia wasn't gpl Jan 20 18:32:47 koen: it is open now? Jan 20 18:32:57 aloril: not entirely Jan 20 18:33:12 SXE, drm and some other bits are still closed Jan 20 18:33:20 koen: Not every bit of it is based on the gpl?> Jan 20 18:33:47 not by a long shot Jan 20 18:33:51 high-rez: no idea. I'm not on the coreteam :) Jan 20 18:33:52 Oh that sucks. Jan 20 18:34:23 everything in openmoko, minus the gps daemon is open source Jan 20 18:34:45 LoRez: Any idea if anyone here is? I got some questions from the carrier perspective. ;) Jan 20 18:34:53 mickeyl is. Jan 20 18:35:04 or claims to be ;) Jan 20 18:37:44 * aloril excepts gps daemon too to be open source eventually (maybe not bundled version, but being available) Jan 20 18:38:09 They really need to advertise it's a gsm phone and that it supports 850/900/1800/1900 on that specs page if that's the case. Jan 20 18:38:36 high-rez: it is, AFAIK. Jan 20 18:38:50 koen: drm sounds ominous Jan 20 18:38:53 not anymore http://www.openmoko.com/press Jan 20 18:39:22 high-rez: What is not known yet which GRPS speed class it will have. Jan 20 18:40:04 Doesn't broadcomm make a quadband phone-in-chip that does gprs&edge? I kinda wonder why they didn't go that route. Jan 20 18:40:05 morricone: I think it was mentioned on the mailing list. Jan 20 18:40:18 the press release clearly states: * GSM850/900/1800/1900 compatibility for network support in Europe, Asia Jan 20 18:40:18 high-rez: license issues? Jan 20 18:40:18 Pacific, Japan, Africa and the US Jan 20 18:41:06 koen: Where? I just looked for 850 and i see nothing on www.openmoko.com/press ? Jan 20 18:41:30 I said "Press release", didn't I? Jan 20 18:41:37 I think http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html has not been updated since it was created Jan 20 18:41:40 high-rez, in the pdf Jan 20 18:42:04 maybe somebody should update it now? Jan 20 18:42:19 "Press Releases" is the first link on http://www.openmoko.com/press Jan 20 18:42:30 probably, but it has been updated Jan 20 18:44:44 the initial mtn pull is painful slow and/or huge :( Jan 20 18:44:52 koen: hmm.. yeah, announce list is linked from http://www.openmoko.com/ so its available Jan 20 18:47:46 will you have the ability to read the imei from the linux interface, or is that abstracted through some piece of hardware? Jan 20 18:47:56 err s/imei/imsi Jan 20 19:26:35 high-rez: IMEI should not be an problem. Jan 20 19:27:35 hi Jan 20 19:28:01 And the IMSI? Jan 20 19:28:34 what is openmoko like? Debian/Slackware/its own Jan 20 19:28:52 In the sense of package management/initialisation/etc? Jan 20 19:28:56 why not, you have a AT interface to the gsm modul. like a umts card in a notebook. you can read these infos via AT Jan 20 19:30:00 olegfink: debian-based, built using openembedded Jan 20 19:30:38 oh no Jan 20 19:31:03 oh yes Jan 20 19:31:13 * olegfink thought he will get rid of openembedded with something other than his 9years hp jornada 680 Jan 20 19:33:25 koen: so I will have to write these novels also known as bbfiles? Jan 20 19:35:56 * olegfink realised it was a flame Jan 20 19:54:39 Apologies to be one of those people, but there is a typo on the front page of www.openmoko.com. The "!." should be "!" Jan 20 20:00:15 hi Jan 20 20:00:26 Hi stepan Jan 20 20:03:03 Hey guys Jan 20 20:03:38 hi Jan 20 20:03:43 hi Jan 20 20:03:44 morning all Jan 20 20:03:59 hey rwhitby Jan 20 20:04:00 :-D Jan 20 20:04:04 idem, but here is 2:30pm :-) Jan 20 20:04:12 ~ugt Jan 20 20:04:25 extra, extra, read all about it, ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html Jan 20 20:04:34 thx koen Jan 20 20:04:37 lol Jan 20 20:04:44 so I'm a software developer who read about OpenMoko on Slashdot (surprise surprise) Jan 20 20:04:47 lol Jan 20 20:04:58 I had a couple of questions that I couldn't work out simply from reading the (rather sparse) OpenMoko site Jan 20 20:05:14 wycats: got the slashdot link? Jan 20 20:05:28 http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/01/20/1551200.shtml Jan 20 20:05:42 thx Jan 20 20:05:56 so first up, what kind of input does OpenMoko have? Jan 20 20:06:09 a soft-keyboard? Jan 20 20:07:27 * rwhitby catches up on the overnight logs at http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/irclogs/openmoko.txt Jan 20 20:08:52 rwhitby: don't bother :) Jan 20 20:09:06 koen: heh :-) Jan 20 20:09:21 unless you like trolls Jan 20 20:09:30 rwhitby: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html Jan 20 20:09:39 nice stuff, with an arm compatible cpu Jan 20 20:09:50 s/compatible// Jan 20 20:10:48 yeah well, a samsung soc Jan 20 20:11:01 ? Jan 20 20:11:03 i wonder if this would make a good candidate for a linuxbios port Jan 20 20:11:05 wycats, I posted about dasher to the list a few mins ago. http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ I'd love to see it in use Jan 20 20:11:14 wycats: I think input is one thing where there will be innovation before final 2007-09-11 release Jan 20 20:11:20 wycats, but I think it's a soft keyboard Jan 20 20:12:17 interesting Jan 20 20:12:21 koen: I was around for that bit Jan 20 20:12:31 I wonder if making use of the way Apple does its soft-keyboard in the iPhone would be possible Jan 20 20:12:47 what does apple do? Jan 20 20:13:04 I'm not sure... but their soft-keyboard seems to allow better precision with a smaller space Jan 20 20:13:04 tengo.net I think that's what they might be going with Jan 20 20:13:22 wycats: that one sounds inefficient and in practice hard to use, this looks more promising: http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html Jan 20 20:13:59 the other question I had was whether the OpenMoko project would be open to a widgety-type framework that would allow software developers to create XHTML/CSS/JS mini-apps Jan 20 20:14:00 rwhitby: ah, in that case: no real news Jan 20 20:14:39 I was pretty disappointed that the iPhone doesn't support user-contributed widgets Jan 20 20:14:40 but... Jan 20 20:15:18 HTML/CSS/JS widgets can do a lot, but they're very simple to create for web-devs Jan 20 20:16:50 Such a system is possible, but I don't think it's planned immediately. Jan 20 20:18:10 is there likely to be a browser built-in? Jan 20 20:19:35 I'd assume not initially, Jan 20 20:19:58 hmmm Jan 20 20:20:51 One will likely appear fairly soon, though. Jan 20 20:21:20 Maybe even before online orders open... Dunno, though. Jan 20 20:21:42 makes sense Jan 20 20:21:55 * Odin-LAP is more interested in perverting the communications and/or radio features, personally. Jan 20 20:22:01 :) Jan 20 20:22:09 widgets, especially ones that can access the Internet, can do a whole lot Jan 20 20:22:20 and you'd be likely to get a whole bunch of small apps very rapidly Jan 20 20:22:27 wycats: Indeed. Jan 20 20:22:39 :-D Jan 20 20:23:18 wycats: What I'm interested in, though, is rerouting voice comms to provide short-range bidirectional encrypted radio. 8) Jan 20 20:23:27 that's cool Jan 20 20:23:56 * piratepenguin wonders will mozilla and/or minimo (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/minimo/) ever run on it.. Jan 20 20:24:00 Not sure if the CPU is powerful enough to do it properly, though. Jan 20 20:24:19 piratepenguin: Gecko isn't *that* bad, is it? Jan 20 20:24:21 webkit Jan 20 20:24:23 far far simpler Jan 20 20:24:35 mozilla has a lot of abstraction layers Jan 20 20:24:57 * koen supports WebKit as mokobrowser Jan 20 20:25:11 * ozamosi too Jan 20 20:25:18 Moko is Gtk+-based, right? Jan 20 20:25:27 Webkit actually does what it should, most of the time :) Jan 20 20:25:50 Odin-LAP: yes Jan 20 20:25:51 But without requiring a gigabyte of ram :) Jan 20 20:25:54 is webkit completely not non-free? Jan 20 20:26:00 lgpl i believe Jan 20 20:26:13 homepage says "portions..." Jan 20 20:26:19 * cying is of the opinion that BSD is also free, not just GPL. Jan 20 20:26:41 * piratepenguin is too Jan 20 20:26:47 http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/browser/trunk/WebCore/platform/gdk Jan 20 20:27:09 cying, I think everybody agrees that BSD is free :/ Jan 20 20:27:17 hmmm Jan 20 20:27:34 piratepenguin: i've sometimes seen some linux zealots insist that GPL is the only free Jan 20 20:27:38 The FSF certainly does. Jan 20 20:27:52 bsd minus advertising clause is fine Jan 20 20:28:16 cying, well the GPL insists on free.. it's for people who will work for freedom, I guess Jan 20 20:28:17 BSD _is_ free. GPL is only free if you can accept certain restrictions that are supposed to be good in the long term Jan 20 20:28:25 what's cool is that if you use webkit, you're halfway there to a reasonable widget framework ;) ;) Jan 20 20:28:34 indeed Jan 20 20:28:34 more than half way Jan 20 20:28:34 GPL is free enough Jan 20 20:28:52 wycats, GPL is completely free.... Jan 20 20:28:52 cying: You wouldn't be allowed to use Apple's widget stuff Jan 20 20:28:58 I was responding to ozamosi Jan 20 20:28:59 build our own! Jan 20 20:29:02 huh? Jan 20 20:29:02 exactly Jan 20 20:29:05 hence: half-way Jan 20 20:29:09 it's really easy Jan 20 20:29:20 what widget stuff? Jan 20 20:29:24 ozamosi: What restrictions? Jan 20 20:29:27 Apple has a widget library Jan 20 20:29:29 webkit binds to cocoa Jan 20 20:29:33 that won't port Jan 20 20:29:33 not necessary Jan 20 20:29:36 oh Jan 20 20:29:40 you mean Widgets Jan 20 20:29:40 webkit doesn't need to bind to cocoa Jan 20 20:29:43 yeah Jan 20 20:29:52 there's a Windows version of webkit Jan 20 20:29:52 DashboardKonfabulatorGoogleGadgets Widgets Jan 20 20:29:55 lol Jan 20 20:30:04 I don't really care what it's called Jan 20 20:30:15 well Jan 20 20:30:17 I just think that allowing them as an alternative application format on OpenMoko would help Jan 20 20:30:25 what i mean to say is that Jan 20 20:30:26 Odin-LAP: for instance, I can't give a friend a GPL binary, unless I also give him the source and/or tell him where to get it. Jan 20 20:30:33 if you guys really want openmoko to compete effectively Jan 20 20:30:37 For the license flamewar, let me interject that GNU/FSF says the BSD is a Free license, but the GPL is a copyleft license. Jan 20 20:30:43 you got to throw out the gtk and Qt style UI widget frameworks Jan 20 20:30:48 They consider copyleft to be something above and beyond Free, FWIW. Jan 20 20:30:52 and do something more modern like use WebKit for UI Jan 20 20:31:02 paulproteus, so every licensing discussion is a framewar now? ;) Jan 20 20:31:13 cying: I think *allowing* webkit for UI would be adequate Jan 20 20:31:25 paulproteus: sorry, I'll try not to start a war. OTOH, starting wars is what I do best :) Jan 20 20:31:30 will Qt work on moko too (it's so easy to type mojo instead lol)? I mean embeeded stuff is like it's bread & butter.. it might be nice to play with Qtopia on moko Jan 20 20:31:36 * paulproteus grins Jan 20 20:31:40 ozamosi: I ... see. Strictly, in fact, the latter option isn't open either. Jan 20 20:31:42 wycats: as long as it's easy and made first class citizen, i agree. Jan 20 20:32:02 the first question is whether webkit can be made to run on OpenMoko Jan 20 20:32:10 the CPU may just be too slow Jan 20 20:32:15 what is it? Jan 20 20:32:21 486 SX/33 Jan 20 20:32:24 j/k (-: Jan 20 20:32:25 lol Jan 20 20:32:28 :P Jan 20 20:32:28 8088 Jan 20 20:32:32 XT Jan 20 20:32:40 pffft Jan 20 20:32:44 seriously Jan 20 20:32:52 ARM7? ARM9? mhz? Jan 20 20:33:08 cying, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html has specs Jan 20 20:33:28 http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/MobileSoC/ApplicationProcessor/ARM9Series/S3C2410/S3C2410.htm is the Samsung link Jan 20 20:33:28 oh Jan 20 20:33:36 ARM9 266 Mhz Jan 20 20:33:41 that'll DEFINITELY run webkit Jan 20 20:33:46 jesus Jan 20 20:34:00 cying, WebKit for UI.. I like that idea. Would it be up for it tho? I know gecko would, because it powers the Firefox/Thunderbird/etc UI, all of it.. Jan 20 20:34:14 webkit runs OSX Dashboard widgets Jan 20 20:34:18 piratepenguin: my experience is yes Jan 20 20:34:26 piratepenguin: i used to do real mobile phone UI frameworks at openwave Jan 20 20:34:42 cying, ah cool.. I'll have to look at it Jan 20 20:34:43 I'm looking the 'preliminary' specs on this phone and they strike me as a bit unusual - Beautiful VGA screen but only GPRS? No mention of frequency support? Jan 20 20:34:43 cying: "real" as opposed to what? Jan 20 20:34:44 piratepenguin: and webkit is more than enough to power the set of apps you would build for mobile phones Jan 20 20:34:54 cying: precisely Jan 20 20:34:58 Odin-LAP: mass-market feature phones Jan 20 20:35:01 I think we're saying the same thing :-D Jan 20 20:35:08 Odin-LAP: vs. smartphones / PDA phones Jan 20 20:35:20 cying: I see. Jan 20 20:36:03 my only worry is the javascript support Jan 20 20:36:11 cying, how do webkit apps.. do something tho? does it have an equivilent to mozilla's xpcom (a COM)? Jan 20 20:36:19 but at 266mhz, it'll be lost in the noise until someone ports Core Animation to open source Jan 20 20:36:21 webkit does JS very well Jan 20 20:36:37 wycats: i meant to say, js performance Jan 20 20:36:47 cying: yeah... I hear ya Jan 20 20:36:54 wycats: if the iPhone processor == openmoko processor then i think you'll be okay Jan 20 20:37:22 I honestly think that OpenMoko has the capability to compete with the iPhone amongst the geekier crows Jan 20 20:37:22 once Leopard ships, i can talk more about the Core Animation UI model Jan 20 20:37:23 crowd Jan 20 20:37:25 it's very innovative Jan 20 20:37:31 cying: but now? Jan 20 20:37:36 the cpu on the mopenmoko is a bit slower than current WM5 devices... and I think the iPhone has ~400 MHz CPU Jan 20 20:37:48 The iPhone is offensive and locked-down. It's a non-option for us geeks, I'd say. Jan 20 20:37:54 I don't agree Jan 20 20:38:02 my real worry is the 480 x 640 screen on the openmoko Jan 20 20:38:08 geeks like things that work well and are nice to look at Jan 20 20:38:11 like everyone else Jan 20 20:38:11 and the memory bandwidth isn't known Jan 20 20:38:20 i agree with wycats Jan 20 20:38:33 iPhone doesn't "work well". Jan 20 20:38:51 cying: what's wrong with 480x640 Jan 20 20:38:51 It's tied to a single U.S.-based service provider. ;) Jan 20 20:38:57 see, Jan 20 20:39:10 Well, we'll see. I thought iPhone looked cool, but when they said it was locked down to only run Apple apps, I wanted to swear at them and attack Mr. Jobs for misleading me. Jan 20 20:39:19 wycats: the more pixels you have, the more memory you have to address when doing things like basic graphics fills Jan 20 20:39:26 yeah... I hear ya Jan 20 20:39:35 on the other hand, you can do more with it Jan 20 20:39:47 266MhZ might just be too slow Jan 20 20:39:58 wycats: and phone hardware traditionally has slow memory bandwidth... that's why a GBA >> an equivalent ARM7 phone Jan 20 20:39:59 probably not tho Jan 20 20:40:10 nah Jan 20 20:40:24 cying, I always thought of core animation as "something like cairo/glitz", how accurate was my guess? :) Jan 20 20:40:27 what's the memory bandwidth on the OpenMoko? Jan 20 20:40:29 if webkit ends up being too slow, i'm sure someone (maybe me) will come up with a little lightweight UI framework for writting phone apps Jan 20 20:40:46 piratepenguin: far off actually... Quartz is like cairo / glitz Jan 20 20:41:00 I just dont get CA at all Jan 20 20:41:02 piratepenguin: Core Animation is something that makes writing iPhone style UI a cakewalk Jan 20 20:41:05 cying: the thing is that allowing JS/CSS means you get tons of good web developers to write stuff Jan 20 20:41:18 I personally feel the iPhone is not an option because of the lack of 3G and lack of any kind of handwriting recognition.... being closed is also pretty killer, but it's not my #1 reaction Jan 20 20:41:32 handwriting recognition is bullshit Jan 20 20:41:35 I've ever used it Jan 20 20:41:37 *never Jan 20 20:41:37 wycats: i agree... but you need the apps to be fast... so hopefully the memory bandwidth will be sufficient Jan 20 20:41:41 agreed Jan 20 20:41:50 It might be possible to build a stripped-down webkit Jan 20 20:41:57 cying, interesting Jan 20 20:42:04 I've used handwriting recognition and I like 'block lettering' style input... may not do it for everybody, but it does it for me Jan 20 20:42:07 wycats: and so if the need arises, someone will build a phone app UI framework ala Core Animation Jan 20 20:42:26 wycats: which simply means: light and pretty UI framework Jan 20 20:42:29 :) Jan 20 20:42:53 it's funny, because these days I work with Ruby/JS... never really got into Objective-C and Cocoa Jan 20 20:42:54 but to me, the iPhone hardware is still a lot better... that nvidia GPU in the iPhone will make the difference Jan 20 20:43:07 we can work around hardware difficulties Jan 20 20:43:25 wycats: what i really mean is to port the philosophy and API paradigm from Core Animation, not the actual bits Jan 20 20:43:35 obviously Jan 20 20:43:45 it doesn't have to be objc either Jan 20 20:43:49 since I don't know what that is, I don't know how useful that would be ;) Jan 20 20:44:09 Why is the wiki requesting HTTP authentication to view it? Jan 20 20:45:08 blueandwhiteg3: because it's not live yet Jan 20 20:45:13 hmm ok Jan 20 20:45:16 anyway Jan 20 20:45:23 i hope to see this hardware soon Jan 20 20:45:38 my personal project is a very lightweight UI framework Jan 20 20:45:43 not to port webkit per se Jan 20 20:46:01 "very lightweight" Jan 20 20:46:02 a la? Jan 20 20:46:08 Core Animation? Jan 20 20:46:10 Are there plans for a openmoko 2? Right now the phone radio specs (GPRS, bluetooth) I am seeing are a bit like a GSM phone from 8 years ago Jan 20 20:46:14 in the style of Jan 20 20:46:20 but easier and higher level Jan 20 20:46:25 high-level == good Jan 20 20:46:40 it's actually pretty sane to take something from the DOM/JS model of development Jan 20 20:46:46 ick Jan 20 20:46:47 maybe JS Jan 20 20:46:48 somehow, that has ended up being pretty easy Jan 20 20:46:54 I really like the screen and the openness, but there's no 3G, not even any EDGE. Jan 20 20:46:54 but W3C DOM is very very obtuse Jan 20 20:47:04 I don't mean W3C DOM ;) Jan 20 20:47:05 blueandwhiteg3: annoucment said v2 hardware at 2007-09-11 Jan 20 20:47:08 * cying agrees with blueandwhiteg3 Jan 20 20:47:19 ;) Jan 20 20:47:32 konfabulator had a pretty nice one Jan 20 20:47:39 a nice DOM? Jan 20 20:47:45 but i'm focused on just getting pretty UI done Jan 20 20:47:50 yea Jan 20 20:47:53 DOM ish API Jan 20 20:47:54 Hmm... I am personally looking at this phone: http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_p3600.htm - it is perhaps a bit similar, but features full 3G support and even wifi. Jan 20 20:48:46 There's no way I'm spending hundreds of dollars on a 'nice' phone without 3G, and especially without EDGE. I'm afraid weak radio specs may cripple OpenMoko in rev 1. Jan 20 20:49:14 i might develop the framework on a soft emulator Jan 20 20:49:41 i just like having a open linux based phone instead of my WM5 HTC phone Jan 20 20:50:00 Same here Jan 20 20:50:01 i don't know, for the last few years i've had 3G phones i've been disabling any 3G-ish features to avoid working up a massive bill. there are _two_ video cameras in my current phone and i don't ever remember using either of them Jan 20 20:50:17 since grokking raw frame buffer / gtk / gcc is easier than grokking DirectDraw, GAPI, GDI+, and all the windows apis. Jan 20 20:50:28 I'd like to help with the UI design Jan 20 20:50:37 I don't particularly enjoy gtk myself Jan 20 20:50:38 that's why i was surprised to see no wifi Jan 20 20:50:47 It has to be really really easy Jan 20 20:50:58 there is plenty of interesting work to be done with core phone functionality Jan 20 20:51:02 wycats: well gtk just enough to get at the frame buffer Jan 20 20:51:05 I don't know about you guys, but I have unlimited data for USD $18/mo + 1500 sms + 200 mms... and it is just longing for a 3G phone with a VGA screen Jan 20 20:51:16 I hear that blueandwhiteg3 Jan 20 20:51:26 blueandwhiteg3, Wow, how do you get that? Jan 20 20:51:45 paulproteus: you can get slightly more expensive deals anywhere in the US if you look for them Jan 20 20:51:49 paulproteus: sign up at the right time with cingular and away you go :) Jan 20 20:51:55 Golly, gee whiz. Jan 20 20:52:11 That almost makes me not need wifi.... Jan 20 20:52:15 cingular offers $20/mo unlimited data for phones Jan 20 20:52:17 was? Jan 20 20:52:18 :) Jan 20 20:52:29 blueandwhiteg3, Does that include voice service in those $20? Jan 20 20:52:40 No. Jan 20 20:52:48 Ah, okay. Jan 20 20:52:53 Then it's plausible. (-: Jan 20 20:53:04 yep Jan 20 20:53:26 it's just that there's no really good way to get data into this phone... no wifi, no 3G, not even EDGE... yet it will have a lovely screen Jan 20 20:53:56 and it sounds like it'll run killer applications Jan 20 20:54:02 without data Jan 20 20:54:04 ;) Jan 20 20:54:22 yeah... the killer apps will be not so killer :) Jan 20 20:54:29 lol Jan 20 20:54:37 blueandwhiteg3: bluetooth + usb Jan 20 20:54:38 hmmm Jan 20 20:54:42 my priv msgs aren't working Jan 20 20:55:20 bluetooth doesn't really compare to wifi.... so you have to basically sit next to your computer to use the phone, with bluetooth or usb Jan 20 20:55:32 and why use the phone if you are right next to your computer? Jan 20 20:55:37 are there any micro SD card wifi radios? Jan 20 20:55:48 except to place calls.... for which you do not need a VGA screen Jan 20 20:55:56 bluetooth to wifi bridge i'm thinking Jan 20 20:55:57 cying: Yes, but none that will fit in the slot on the Neo. Jan 20 20:56:03 Maybe I can use my 770 as a wifi gateway Jan 20 20:56:03 dohhhhhhh Jan 20 20:56:05 and there are plans to use a usb wifi dongle Jan 20 20:56:22 maybe i should develop on the N880 first Jan 20 20:56:42 great, so i have to carry around all this extra crap.... and I thought I was done with that, as tons of pda phones are including wifi Jan 20 20:56:57 cying: have you applied for free phone? http://www.openmoko.com/ (I'm just lurker, so don't know more than what announcement said and what that page says) Jan 20 20:57:03 blueandwhiteg3: Dude, we get it, you want wifi. Jan 20 20:57:11 cying: micro sd card is under battery Jan 20 20:57:21 aloril: oh, didn't see that, thanks for the link Jan 20 20:57:29 hahahaha i doubt wifi will fit Jan 20 20:57:39 gawd, the attack of the noobs. I think I'll take a break from the channel and the list for a week or two... OMG WIFI!!111! Jan 20 20:58:18 aloril: oops, yep, i applied back in january 2006 Jan 20 20:58:26 They say that they are still shaping the specs for the openmoko 2, how will that be happening? Jan 20 20:58:34 aloril: 2007 Jan 20 20:58:51 wycats: i got your priv msg, but not sure if i can reply Jan 20 20:58:57 blueandwhiteg3: there is already one microSD wifi card that I know of Jan 20 20:59:21 aloril: what was the URL to that freenode stats page? Jan 20 20:59:30 Sencer: We're noobs, but we're not idiots Jan 20 20:59:39 cying: why not? Jan 20 21:00:06 wycats: not sure... did you get my priv msgs? Jan 20 21:00:26 nope Jan 20 21:00:30 doh Jan 20 21:00:38 I hate this "noob-phobia" Jan 20 21:00:39 ugh Jan 20 21:00:43 http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&query=&num=40 (buts its not yet updated with latest influx) Jan 20 21:00:46 * cying agrees. Jan 20 21:00:57 wycats: if you read the mail list, you'll see that half of the posts are "I want WiFi!" "We can't do WiFi now" "But I want WiFi now!" repeated over and over again Jan 20 21:01:05 ozamosi: I get it Jan 20 21:01:10 that's no reason to use a slur Jan 20 21:01:16 anyway, 196 is record and we have passed #maemo now (in addition to passing ##windows) Jan 20 21:01:19 you got slashdotted Jan 20 21:01:21 yaknow Jan 20 21:01:22 No, sure. Jan 20 21:01:23 that's a good thing Jan 20 21:01:36 it brings in new people, but you're going to have to get them up to date Jan 20 21:01:40 unless you never want new ppl again Jan 20 21:01:43 I'm just explaining the motives, not defending his actions. Jan 20 21:01:45 :) Jan 20 21:01:52 * koen hopes slashdotters read the topic Jan 20 21:01:57 previous record is from yesterday: 185 2007-01-19 23:23:41 Jan 20 21:02:04 but i do commend the openmoko team for making this huge bet Jan 20 21:02:06 but then again, slashdotters never read the article Jan 20 21:02:13 lol Jan 20 21:02:15 and i hope to see a openmoko 2 with wimax / wifi Jan 20 21:02:21 i mean wifi / 3g Jan 20 21:02:36 leventhal: but the microsd wifi card does not fit entirely in the microsd form factor, and since the microsd card goes behind the battery... we have a problem. Jan 20 21:02:49 * greentux_ hopes that we will have a faq page soon... Jan 20 21:03:02 FAQ: Can we have Wifi? Answer: No. Jan 20 21:03:03 ;) Jan 20 21:03:06 * blueandwhiteg3 is distracted by solaris installation Jan 20 21:03:08 You're sure? It looks like it does Jan 20 21:03:29 reason for no wifi is that there was no suitable chip that would allow GPL kernel modules Jan 20 21:03:41 (that is impression I have gotten from mailing list) Jan 20 21:03:49 ozamosi: is that true? Jan 20 21:04:08 well, some chipsets have been reverse engineered if i recall.... Jan 20 21:04:15 wycats: anything? Jan 20 21:04:21 cying: nope Jan 20 21:04:26 leventhal: I'm pretty sure it is not an entire radio in a micorsd form factor... and even if it was, how good would the reception be with such a tiny antenna *behind* the battery? Jan 20 21:04:27 it's either colloquy or freenode that's screwing me over Jan 20 21:04:36 pretty bad reception yeah Jan 20 21:04:38 cying: are you on AIM? Jan 20 21:04:39 wycats: what is true? Jan 20 21:04:44 ah Jan 20 21:04:47 cying: you cannot send privmsgs if you're not identified Jan 20 21:04:51 ah! Jan 20 21:04:55 yes i am Jan 20 21:04:57 i'll go do that now... Jan 20 21:04:57 so i am hoping that the second gen phone has wifi, but it's not enough to put me off from first gen Jan 20 21:05:00 been that way for a long time. Jan 20 21:05:02 IM outlookeic Jan 20 21:05:09 ozamosi: that the reason for no Wifi is GPL Jan 20 21:05:20 wycats: i'll try id'ing first Jan 20 21:05:24 :) Jan 20 21:05:31 wycats: apparently Jan 20 21:05:42 er... how does one identify one's self? Jan 20 21:05:47 is that something that can be resolved eventually Jan 20 21:06:23 cying: /msg nickserv help register Jan 20 21:06:41 blueandwhiteg3: it needs to be embedded not use much energy, I heard that there might be some recent candidates, dunno, but I guess this will be resolved before v2 hardware ;-) Jan 20 21:07:35 it's hard to write kick-ass apps if the apps can never get recent data ;) Jan 20 21:07:35 I mean... I can build a calculator Jan 20 21:07:35 clock Jan 20 21:07:35 lol Jan 20 21:07:57 wycats: probably. Either some FLOSS friendly company releases a low power chip, or a low power chip gets good reverese enginered drivers Jan 20 21:07:58 aloril: yeah, i was guessing that was the issue... but frankly, i don't care so much about wifi as 3G.... 1 mbit internet *everywhere* is way more attractive than even my 10 mbit connection but only when I'm at home Jan 20 21:08:12 brb Jan 20 21:08:14 3g is actually faster than 1mbit Jan 20 21:08:28 blueandwhiteg3: another reason is that they wanted to keep price down Jan 20 21:08:33 wycats: Yes, but I am talking real world performance on 3G versus my home connection Jan 20 21:08:48 I hear ya Jan 20 21:08:48 the price is already pretty high Jan 20 21:09:07 I mean... I can get an iPhone for $500, and that includes an iPod... :P Jan 20 21:09:10 aloril: yeah, i can understand the need to keep cost down, it's just that the people who will want this are kind of on the 'high end' of things anyhow.... and man, that VGA screen is incredible Jan 20 21:09:21 (and yes. I do believe that the iPhone is your main competition) Jan 20 21:09:24 wycats: the iPhone is WITH a 2 year contract Jan 20 21:09:25 wycats: depends, nokia communicators are 2x in price Jan 20 21:09:36 wycats: without contract, add at least $200 Jan 20 21:09:39 blueandwhiteg3: most people get their phones with contract Jan 20 21:10:12 wycats: the iphone is not open at all, you didnt get it Jan 20 21:10:17 xorAxAx: I do Jan 20 21:10:23 wycats: The OpenMoko won't be sold with contract I'm guessing. And I don't buy my phones with contract. And outside the US, contracts are not quite as dead set.... Jan 20 21:10:23 Believe me I do Jan 20 21:10:47 blueandwhiteg3: it will be, see the schedule Jan 20 21:10:56 Speaking of cost.... look at the iPhone's cost: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070118-8649.html Jan 20 21:11:07 50% gross margins they say Jan 20 21:11:08 wycats: most consumers wont get it, yes, and buy the iphone :) Jan 20 21:11:14 even though its more expensive Jan 20 21:11:31 the question is simply whether consumers need the openness Jan 20 21:11:39 xorAxAx: What will be? Jan 20 21:11:39 or whether they'll be happy with the bundled software Jan 20 21:11:43 blueandwhiteg3: who knows, maybe you can get Neo1973 with contract too at Q4 ;-) Jan 20 21:11:57 blueandwhiteg3: it will be sold with contracts Jan 20 21:12:06 btw, here's my opinion on iphone apps: Jan 20 21:12:06 http://www.satine.org/archives/2007/01/11/how-to-write-an-iphone-app/ Jan 20 21:12:11 it's probably quite unpopular with this crowd though ;) Jan 20 21:12:26 Have *any* of you guys seen Cingular's QA and branding requirements? Jan 20 21:12:54 wycats: I think the point is that if enough geeks do really cool stuff, the neo (or the phone(s) that follows it) might be more interesting to consumer Jan 20 21:12:56 cying: not open at all, yep Jan 20 21:12:56 s Jan 20 21:13:06 ozamosi: absolutely Jan 20 21:13:15 you're still competing with them ;) Jan 20 21:13:31 in the end, yes. But that's not the important market NOW. Jan 20 21:13:34 I have a hard time imagining the OpenMoko being 'open' after Cingular is done. Jan 20 21:14:32 Cingular was the driving force behind the iPhone being closed. Cingular forced apple to lock and brand the iPhone. Cingular told *Apple* what to do. I shudder to think what they would do to the OpenMoko. We'd just have the plain old 'Moko' with DRM-laden firmware and carrier-locked phone.... Jan 20 21:14:53 blueandwhiteg3: in sweden, phones mostly do not get branded at all - you just choose which operator your phone would be locked to. US isn't the world :) Jan 20 21:15:09 And I doubt cingular is the US. Jan 20 21:15:11 ozamosi: I know! I think I should move. Jan 20 21:15:25 ozamosi: There is only one other nationwide GSM carrier - T-Mobile. Jan 20 21:15:38 They also brand their phones up pretty well, though they're not as bad as Cingular. Jan 20 21:15:44 Are you required to comply with them in order to use their network Jan 20 21:16:02 or just to get contracts Jan 20 21:16:04 wycats: No, but if you want to sell it with a contract or through the Cingular store or anything, yes. Jan 20 21:16:15 hmmm Jan 20 21:16:24 it's interesting Jan 20 21:16:45 Oh well... US is always 6-12 months behind Europe, and Europe is 6-12 months behind Asia. So maybe things will work out for americans in 2 years? Jan 20 21:16:48 That's why I just pick the phone I want, stick my SIM into there, and away I go. No contract with Cingular (ever - this surprises most Americans) and I just bring my own unlocked, unbranded phone. Jan 20 21:17:46 ozamosi: People say that, but I'm not 100% sure how true it is. It's more like the 'good' phones show up over there, but the US carriers need time to cripple them. But if you use GSM, you just go buy the phone you want, bring it into the US, and be done with it. Jan 20 21:17:57 lol Jan 20 21:18:23 well, Jan 20 21:18:32 That's what I think I'm going to do with the HTC P3600. penta-band 2G/3G, bluetooth 2, miniSD, GPS, 802.11g, etc. Jan 20 21:18:40 about 4 years ago, i took a trip to tokyo Jan 20 21:19:14 i spent a few days going around akihabara looking for a great portable audio player Jan 20 21:19:19 It used to be a big issue to import stuff, but with everybody going the way of 3G, it gets easier everyday. Jan 20 21:19:41 and found lots of advanced MD and flash memory players with horrid interfaces Jan 20 21:20:01 US was pretty backwards in comparison Jan 20 21:20:02 welcome to japan :) Jan 20 21:20:11 then i came back, and the ipod was launched. Jan 20 21:20:28 They seem to be into 'high tech' at any cost, including usability Jan 20 21:20:52 so when people say that europe or asia are "more advanced" than US, i always think back to the ipod example Jan 20 21:21:03 blueandwhiteg3: Unforunately, unlocked doesn't always mean it will work. I have an unlocked treo that won't handle incoming caller id, for example. Jan 20 21:21:19 jjazz: What?? Jan 20 21:21:58 blueandwhiteg3: I have an unlocked cingular treo. When I put a t-mobile sim in it, it works just fine except for caller id. Jan 20 21:22:12 and it's branded 'Cingular' when you turn it on/off, right? Jan 20 21:22:18 yes Jan 20 21:22:25 the key is provisioning parameters Jan 20 21:22:28 caller id is kinda important Jan 20 21:22:31 cying: yeah, europe doesnt have a religion comparable to apple Jan 20 21:22:34 Well, dude, just install the 'unbranded' firmware and you'll be fine. Jan 20 21:22:45 if a phone has provisioning presets for all the carriers, this usually is as simple as selecting the carrier Jan 20 21:22:47 cying: the US is better at building such religions Jan 20 21:23:04 eh. Jan 20 21:23:07 xorAxAx: is the ipod popular in europe? Jan 20 21:23:08 Apple does good work Jan 20 21:23:14 ##windows is a funny channel Jan 20 21:23:17 I had never tried it before. Jan 20 21:23:22 blueandwhiteg3: I just acquired the thing a couple days ago. Removing the branding seems to require some hoop-jumping. Jan 20 21:23:22 cying: not less popular than in the us i would say Jan 20 21:23:34 Cingular did screwy things... I told you Cingular slaughters phones. I have a Treo (cingular branded) and after installing the unbranded firmware, it works *perfect* Jan 20 21:23:40 not- less- popular... meaning it's just as popular? Jan 20 21:24:06 wycats: ah, a believing customer Jan 20 21:24:19 xorAxAx: Apple doesn't do good work? Jan 20 21:24:27 jjazz: It's not a big deal, just stick the firmware on a SD card, hit 'ok, upgrade firmware' after it is loaded, then wait about 2 minutes... your phone is now stripped of Cingular's screwiness. Jan 20 21:24:34 wycats: i never said that, many qualities of their products are superb Jan 20 21:24:46 wycats: others are not Jan 20 21:24:49 blueandwhiteg3: Ah, the websites I've been looking at make it seem like there's magic involved. Jan 20 21:24:50 sure Jan 20 21:24:57 e.g. powerbooks are very unreliable compared to ThinkPads Jan 20 21:24:57 all I said was that apple does good work Jan 20 21:25:13 (T-series) Jan 20 21:25:16 jjazz: there is no such magic involved. just stick the firmware on an SD card and away you go. I have done it on my phone many times and many clients phones too. Jan 20 21:25:23 xorAxAx: I have not had any trouble with my new MacBook Jan 20 21:25:36 and the apple protection is way too expensive for a company that thinks that it does good products :) Jan 20 21:25:40 But this is exactly why we need an open phone.... no more carriers screwing customers by crippling expensive phones. Jan 20 21:25:44 4 times the price of IBM or somehting like that Jan 20 21:25:45 whoa, OpenMoko looks really awesome. I have to ask though, at the risk of sounding pedantic, if any of the software that will ship on it will be proprietary. :) Jan 20 21:26:10 yeah xorAxAx , sadly, ThinkPads RIP Jan 20 21:26:13 but- but- web browser! Jan 20 21:26:17 blueandwhiteg3: I want the "unlocked gsm" firmware from palm.com? Jan 20 21:26:20 and the web browser's core engine is open source Jan 20 21:26:25 orospakr: only the gps daemon is closed-source Jan 20 21:26:33 keny: yeah Jan 20 21:26:34 web apps != native apps? Jan 20 21:26:38 koen: I expected as much. not that big a deal. :) Jan 20 21:26:48 who knows, it might get, *cough*, replaced. :D Jan 20 21:26:54 that's the idea... though i'm not sure if the firmware they distribute will move you from cingular branding to unlocked, iirc you need a different file Jan 20 21:27:05 ok. Thanks Jan 20 21:27:27 btw, how many GSM bands does the 1973 support? Jan 20 21:27:40 4 Jan 20 21:27:45 bless them :) Jan 20 21:27:50 awesome. Jan 20 21:28:03 now just add 3G at 850, 1900 and 2100U and we'll be all set! Jan 20 21:28:15 I'll take one, even at $600+ Jan 20 21:28:34 eh, 2G GSM is pretty fast, isn't it? how many kilobits, generally? Jan 20 21:29:05 Without EDGE?? Think dialup (~50-60 kbps) with even more latency (~800-1000 ms) Jan 20 21:29:18 bleh. Jan 20 21:29:22 oh well, no biggy. Jan 20 21:29:28 still awesome. Jan 20 21:29:34 more than good enough for IM and stuff. Jan 20 21:29:41 orospakr: try browsing the web with that... it is *so* painfully slow Jan 20 21:30:01 it's just that carriers offer faster data at no extra charge, provided your phone supports it Jan 20 21:30:05 so if any openmoko guys are here Jan 20 21:30:07 blueandwhiteg3: geeze, do you want me to buy a 1973 or not? ;) Jan 20 21:30:15 i would like to request a graphics chipset on the open moko 2 Jan 20 21:30:39 you don't want the CPU wasting its battery on software rasterization Jan 20 21:30:45 orospakr: I want you to know the facts then decide for yourself Jan 20 21:30:53 fair enough. :) Jan 20 21:32:27 haven't yet googled for proxy that would be suitable for this, but I remember there being commercial ones some years ago: Jan 20 21:32:48 compress pages, recompress images, etc.. -> faster browsing over slow bandwidth Jan 20 21:33:06 no doubt that will happen if not already done Jan 20 21:33:14 right, that improves things a bit - some carriers offer APNs specially for compressed data Jan 20 21:33:17 such as Cingular Jan 20 21:33:19 exactly Jan 20 21:33:26 i was just going to say that Jan 20 21:33:32 but you have to be provisioned correctly for it Jan 20 21:33:36 correct Jan 20 21:33:38 * olegfink goes to a sleep NOW Jan 20 21:33:50 you need to be able to access ispda.cingular instead of wap.cingular or isp.cingular Jan 20 21:33:51 i hope openmoko will come with provisioning software Jan 20 21:34:07 or presets or whatever the equivalent on openmoko linux is Jan 20 21:34:18 cying: the provisioning happens on the carrier's end... some plans allow ispda, others do not Jan 20 21:34:33 frankly, i don't think it makes much of a difference because the killer is latency more than throughput Jan 20 21:35:01 hm Jan 20 21:35:07 i always thought phones came with the presets Jan 20 21:35:26 I gather the phone will have a dbus API for a lot of the telephony functionality? Jan 20 21:35:34 GPS too, for that matter? Jan 20 21:35:48 any idea what GPRS multislot class the Neo will be? Jan 20 21:35:52 cying: unbranded phones do not come with settings for 'most carriers' in most cases... but it is very easy to plug in the data yourself Jan 20 21:36:00 hopefully at least class 8 or 10 Jan 20 21:36:23 but it didn't say on any press releases i have seen Jan 20 21:36:24 netx: in the US, all carriers limit to 4 timeslots on GPRS, sometimes less if the network is busy Jan 20 21:36:28 blueandwhiteg3: still, i'd like to see the data presets in the phone... my nokia 7610 came with all the data ports pre programmed, very useful. Jan 20 21:36:42 blueandwhiteg3: thanks Jan 20 21:37:06 is that 4 active, or 4 down + 1 up? Jan 20 21:37:07 i suppose it's not worth winging about no wifi or EDGE since the phone has already gone to manufacturing Jan 20 21:37:09 re: provisioning, well, i guess very easy depends on who you are, but from my perspective it is trivial. Still, it would be equally trivial to ship a small app that pre-configures for all major GSM carriers in the US (all two of them) Jan 20 21:37:34 OMG WIFI!!!! Jan 20 21:37:35 netx: 4 down + 1 up, or 3 down + 2 up, if your radio supports Jan 20 21:37:44 cool Jan 20 21:38:11 that's the best you'll get in the US Jan 20 21:38:21 i personally don't care too much about 3G, as this will be my first phone period Jan 20 21:38:26 and frequently, the network throttles you to less than that... Jan 20 21:39:01 i'll take something better whenever the openmoko guys are able to get it Jan 20 21:39:12 netx: You will after you discover you could have nearly DSL-like internet everywhere you go and that lovely VGA screen is running a nice web browser and all these others apps that are just screaming out for connectivity Jan 20 21:39:26 with 3G you could install a VoIP app and never use 'minutes' again Jan 20 21:40:11 Hopefully rev 1 will get enough interest and great 'internet' apps so that rev 2 really gets a good polishing Jan 20 21:40:31 well, for me the ability to hack on the device is more important than the whiz-bang web features for now Jan 20 21:40:55 netx: where do you live that this is your first phone? are you pretty young? Jan 20 21:41:02 like i said, when they are able to get a more powerful phone for subsequent versions, i'll be happy to invest in another one Jan 20 21:41:35 no, i am 26, live in the US, and have made the conscious decision to not get a phone before now Jan 20 21:41:59 which has certainly annoyed a lot of other people, but i haven't really regretted it Jan 20 21:42:08 ;-) Jan 20 21:42:26 netx: hmm, you are certainly atypical. Jan 20 21:42:44 blueandwhiteg3: I've only had a few phones. The new treo is my fourth. I was an early adopter, but I keep my phones for years. Jan 20 21:42:48 that's more ... polite than most people put it Jan 20 21:43:20 netx: I know other people who are in your same boat. I may have a lot to say, but I can respect that people have differing decisions and priorities. Jan 20 21:43:25 I have a friend who still uses a startac Jan 20 21:43:50 Now, if you were an important employee of mine or I was trying to do an important project with you netx, I might have more of a beef :) Jan 20 21:44:37 blueandwhiteg3: nearly-DSL internet is not that cool, with the prices one has to pay in most places per KB ;) Jan 20 21:44:44 heh -- yeah, i had one boss who was initially annoyed about it -- eventually he realized that with my quality of work, he didn't need to call me at any odd time Jan 20 21:45:27 but for most of my jobs, the employer hardly ever noticed Jan 20 21:45:29 yacc: yeah, well... there are 300 million people in the US who can get on decent 'unlimited' plans. Jan 20 21:45:42 will openmoko use gtk+? Jan 20 21:45:58 blueandwhiteg3: but only at gprs speeds? *g* Jan 20 21:46:09 vdepizzol: yes, see urls in topic Jan 20 21:46:34 blueandwhiteg3: I've got a decent UMTS plan, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rather an exception, globally speaking than the rule. Jan 20 21:46:42 yacc: well, cingular does not charge extra for 3G.... you just need a phone that supports it. Jan 20 21:47:16 koen: nice. Thank's Jan 20 21:49:18 yacc: perhaps the plans will improve... still, even if you limit your usage, why not have a low-latency connection for the times that you do use it? Jan 20 21:51:22 Does 'E28' ring a bell with anybody? Jan 20 21:51:28 is Python included on the phone? Jan 20 21:51:53 It appears they have been demoing linux-based 3G/wifi phone: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4367004471.html Jan 20 21:51:55 orospakr: ya Jan 20 21:51:59 jjazz: sweet. Jan 20 21:52:10 not include, but 'available' Jan 20 21:52:11 orospakr: Although, somebody mentioned a lack of python-gtk bindings. Jan 20 21:52:16 it seems that OLPC and OpenMoko have quite a bit in common. which is awesome. Jan 20 21:52:19 ... ouch. Jan 20 21:52:36 jjazz: stop spreading nonsense please Jan 20 21:52:40 orospakr: I don't know if they were correct, or what the deal is Jan 20 21:52:43 *phew* Jan 20 21:53:07 koen: It's not nonsense. Somebody mentioned it this afternoon. Jan 20 21:53:31 right, stop repeating somebody else's nonsense Jan 20 21:54:15 yes, openmoko will only use MFC and fox Jan 20 21:54:26 those are the best gui frameworks around currently Jan 20 21:54:31 :-) Jan 20 21:56:10 xorAxAx: haha. :D Jan 20 21:56:22 yeah, I hear OLPC runs entirely in qbasic. Jan 20 21:56:58 I hope their line numbering scheme is robust enough :) Jan 20 21:57:10 qbasic doesnt depend on line numbers Jan 20 21:57:27 * xorAxAx loves qbasic Jan 20 21:57:44 I'm being facetious :) Jan 20 22:00:30 :O Jan 20 22:00:31 blueandwhiteg3: UMTS is not exactly low-latency. HSDPA is rumored to be low-latency. (E+ does not have it deployed yet :( ) Jan 20 22:00:58 yacc: I don't think i've ever used UMTS - Cingular went straight to HSDPA Jan 20 22:01:35 blueandwhiteg3: you're happy then. Just out of curiosity, what kinds of ping times do you get with HSDPA? Jan 20 22:01:39 My tests show a good device that supports HSDPA at the '3.6 mbit' level can reliably sustain 1.5-1.7 mbit/sec and ping times of 100-150 ms Jan 20 22:01:51 to a site like, say, google or something Jan 20 22:02:10 Well, 100-150ms is not low latency either, BUT way better then the 300-500ms UMTS has. Jan 20 22:02:16 still slower than my home (more like 30-40 ms to major sites) but tons faster than EDGE or (gag) GPRS Jan 20 22:02:33 yacc: that's lower latency than your voice calls with GSM voice Jan 20 22:05:11 blueandwhiteg3: yeah, it's low enough to make ssh over a vpn acceptable. OTOH, on my DSL I'm getting 34ms to google. Jan 20 22:05:42 yacc: yeah, it's still 3-4 times worse than ideal conditions on a home connection... Jan 20 22:06:05 yacc: but it is good enough that you don't really notice and can do *great* voip Jan 20 22:06:18 I even have some clients videoconferencing over 3G Jan 20 22:16:03 alright all, i will keep an eye on the openmoko project and see what happens, it will be interesting to see rev 2 Jan 20 22:32:00 * noidd watches the "GNU/Linux" flamewar on the mailing list and sighs Jan 20 22:32:08 *headslap* Jan 20 22:32:57 and people wonder why i stay away from mailing lists Jan 20 22:33:22 OpenMoko OE/GNU/Linux ;D Jan 20 22:33:31 Hehe Jan 20 22:33:41 hrw: Nice job you got btw, congrats :) Jan 20 22:33:47 CM: thx Jan 20 22:33:52 kergoth/schurig/mickeyl Linux Jan 20 22:34:00 cu Jan 20 22:34:23 hah Jan 20 22:34:32 Yeah, python and perl Gtk bindings will be available Jan 20 22:35:03 for those who prefer their syntax as whitenoise as opposed to syntax as whitespace :-) Jan 20 22:35:47 noidd: you're sure that the OpenMoko platform comes with Python bindings? Jan 20 22:35:57 noidd: or are you just guessing? Jan 20 22:36:05 Hm... Maybe I should start an extra movement, who believes that GNU/Linux as well as Linux are unethical names... Just to be a PITA, and also to make people see how pointless the discussion is. Jan 20 22:36:17 "be available" != " OpenMoko platform comes with Python bindings" Jan 20 22:37:08 koen: so I have to roll my own python extension to build Python bindings Jan 20 22:37:29 which is what I thought. I just wondered if noidd knew otherwise Jan 20 22:38:34 anybody from fic here? Jan 20 22:39:10 or from openmoko? Jan 20 22:39:43 koen: What branch should I check out from oe for trying Moko stuff? took org.oe.dev now Jan 20 22:47:55 CM: did you get further? I'm wondering what machine is closest to OpenMoko in OE Jan 20 22:48:17 I'm playing with my own local.conf now Jan 20 22:48:31 Koen has said before what's the closest, but I can't remember Jan 20 22:48:58 I'm not sure I'll even get Xehpyr and Xoo working on amd64 Jan 20 22:49:02 I'll start messing with some icons Jan 20 22:49:21 CM: I'm still x86, so there's hope for me on that front Jan 20 22:51:03 PirateHead: I'm saying that it is available Jan 20 22:51:17 whether it is in the default build as it is flashed at the factory I do not know. Jan 20 22:51:20 im thinking of doing the battery status first Jan 20 22:51:26 its probably too niche I would have thought Jan 20 22:51:35 but it will definately be in the package feeds Jan 20 22:51:56 Xephyr is a bit bugged on x86_64, afaik. Jan 20 22:51:59 CM: does angstrom ring any bells? Jan 20 22:52:36 boorad: Yes, but I haven't used that one either. That's mickyl's thing Jan 20 22:52:39 CM: koen pasted the machine on ml IIRC Jan 20 22:52:54 stefan_schmidt: I know, but I can't remember :) Jan 20 22:53:01 stefan_schmidt: I'm looking at the archives - was it Jan? Jan 20 22:53:03 or Dec? Jan 20 22:53:08 * CM digs in the logs with vim Jan 20 22:53:21 franck: Your really need a fic guy for your question? Perhaps we can even answer. Jan 20 22:53:49 Tv said: MACHINE=ep93xx, DISTRO=generic Jan 20 22:54:44 MACHINE=ep93xx, DISTRO=generic Jan 20 22:54:51 :) Jan 20 22:54:52 heh, to slow Jan 20 22:55:02 thanks anyway Jan 20 22:55:08 np Jan 20 22:56:19 btw, if somebody is interested in the contacts/date backend. My last status was that they use eds: http://projects.o-hand.com/eds Jan 20 22:56:45 Small, embedded fitting, evolution data server rewrote. Jan 20 22:57:14 evolution as in ghastly outlook clone Jan 20 22:57:14 hello... Jan 20 22:57:33 buz: The data server is nice. Jan 20 22:57:45 i just know i cant stand the frontend Jan 20 22:58:22 buz: heh, I use mutt and have a script query eds for emails addresses. :) Jan 20 22:58:52 http://projects.o-hand.com/dates Jan 20 22:59:00 http://projects.o-hand.com/contacts Jan 20 22:59:19 Both apps base on eds. Even nice to use on your desktop Jan 20 22:59:37 that doesnt look half bad Jan 20 22:59:58 being a kde user i still prefer kontact, but it seems orders of magnitude better than the actively hostile evolution gui Jan 20 23:00:07 buz: Still not complete ready. I miss some features, but better then full blown evolution :) Jan 20 23:00:28 buz: What does kontact use as backend? Jan 20 23:00:34 kde stack Jan 20 23:00:42 in the future it will use akonadi Jan 20 23:00:46 dbus? Jan 20 23:00:48 right now it's basically a bundle of kparts Jan 20 23:00:56 hmm, ok Jan 20 23:01:16 bundles kmail, korganizer, akregator, kaddressbook and a few small ones into one gu Jan 20 23:01:18 i Jan 20 23:01:25 * stefan_schmidt likes the idea to rsync eds dir/files instead of using synML. :) Jan 20 23:01:38 that could be neat, indeed Jan 20 23:01:41 rsync with neo Jan 20 23:01:51 but it means you can only do updates to one at a time Jan 20 23:02:24 buz: hmm, right. That's silly. Jan 20 23:02:48 thats sort of hte whole point of syncml Jan 20 23:02:55 other than that you could simply beam around vcf and ical Jan 20 23:03:44 buz | stefan_schmidt: do either of you know of a tentative base price for the openmoko based phone? (in USD?) Jan 20 23:03:54 350$ Jan 20 23:03:54 350 Jan 20 23:04:28 So I stick with syncml. Jan 20 23:04:29 one more question...then I'll shut up...are there ongoing public negotiations with any US carriers yet? Jan 20 23:04:48 Nothing I heard of. Jan 20 23:05:08 ok. ty - and thanks for the wonderful device :-) Jan 20 23:05:10 PErhaps some announcements about this when customers devices will be shipped. Jan 20 23:05:44 Thank Sean getting FIC to do it. Jan 20 23:05:47 :) Jan 20 23:05:58 thank you Sean (if you're in here right now) Jan 20 23:07:41 He is not here, but will notice your thanks anyway. ;) Jan 20 23:08:44 I don't want to interrupt your conversation...but may I ask one more question? Jan 20 23:09:31 from what I've read/seen...it appears openmoko is looking for embedded developers, more so than GUI developers...is that correct? Jan 20 23:10:03 boorad: I'm doing the nano build now as a test, but it seems to be taking a while Jan 20 23:10:06 Application developer Jan 20 23:10:29 stefan_schmidt: full stack app developers? Jan 20 23:11:14 for anyone Jan 20 23:11:15 StylusEater: It's free to you. Full stack, GUI only, lowlevel only. Jan 20 23:11:49 personally i hardly ever touch OSS code these days. i still like having the freedom to do so if needed Jan 20 23:11:55 StylusEater: I guess there will be projects groups working on a app together. But this will of course take some time to coordinate Jan 20 23:12:10 understood Jan 20 23:12:16 anyway good night Jan 20 23:12:20 night Jan 20 23:12:20 night buz Jan 20 23:13:12 What kind of patches is there in OE: NOTE: Applying patch 'fixchicken.patch' Jan 20 23:13:18 * CM is getting hungry Jan 20 23:14:18 CM: me too - but there are some base packages building before 'nano', I'm guessing Jan 20 23:14:30 libtool, bison, all things we haven't built yet Jan 20 23:15:04 boorad: right, you need to build a toolchain for the board before building packages for it. Jan 20 23:15:21 boorad: Get some food. It'll take some time. :) Jan 20 23:15:25 binutils seems to match the announcement spec Jan 20 23:15:37 so looks like the machine/distro is fine Jan 20 23:15:46 yep, just ordered some indian food Jan 20 23:15:50 heh Jan 20 23:16:18 * stefan_schmidt catches some chocolate Jan 20 23:16:55 stefan_schmidt: have you used D yet? Jan 20 23:17:23 boorad: Never. Programming language, right? Jan 20 23:17:38 yep, I think it's ideal for mobile Jan 20 23:17:49 is that the same d in dtrace or something different? Jan 20 23:17:54 Good stuff from C/C++,Java, removed the bad Jan 20 23:18:06 dtrace is Sun's, D is DigitalMars Jan 20 23:18:33 http://www.digitalmars.com/d Jan 20 23:18:42 * stefan_schmidt takes a look Jan 20 23:19:21 import std.stdio; Jan 20 23:19:21 void main(char[][] args) Jan 20 23:19:36 heh, c and python in one file. :) Jan 20 23:19:47 hehe Jan 20 23:19:59 garbage-collected, but compiles to native Jan 20 23:20:07 faaaaaast, too Jan 20 23:20:32 How they fixed the c buffer overflow problem? Jan 20 23:20:39 I hope they fixed it Jan 20 23:20:58 rpython is fast too Jan 20 23:21:43 rphyton? Jan 20 23:21:54 60 times faster than python Jan 20 23:22:13 stefan_schmidt: the language that was used to implement the pypy interpreter Jan 20 23:22:27 ah Jan 20 23:22:49 Somebody told me about pypy some time ago Jan 20 23:22:55 its a subset of python, but a pretty strong one (and even more dynamic than e.g. java) Jan 20 23:22:56 * greentux_ read where hrw works now. fine Jan 20 23:23:30 boorad: Mine just failed on gettext-native-0.14-r3 Jan 20 23:24:20 greentux_: O-hand is a nice place for oe devs I guess. Jan 20 23:24:47 stefan_schmidt: You are working there too? Jan 20 23:25:03 greentux_: No, only read about it yet. Jan 20 23:25:10 stefan_schmidt: I had some business with allum Jan 20 23:25:28 greentux_: I'm student, but do small freelance jobs. Jan 20 23:25:35 greentux_: Good business? Jan 20 23:26:20 stefan_schmidt: yes we sponsored some little features in the openzaurus distri. Jan 20 23:26:27 stefan_schmidt: where do you live in D? Jan 20 23:27:36 * stefan_schmidt remembers that he promised a new patchset release for OpenEZX this weekend. Boring maintainer stuff. :) Jan 20 23:27:58 greentux_: Small town near to Braunschweig near to Hannover Jan 20 23:28:20 greentux_: And you? Company? Jan 20 23:28:47 boorad: Ah, borking because I use sun-jdk-1.6... Should disable all java somehow Jan 20 23:28:54 stefan_schmidt: dresden, small security related company Jan 20 23:29:45 * CM is off to bed now at 01:00 Jan 20 23:30:06 greentux_: Security related to embedded devices? Or you hanging around here for private stuff? Jan 20 23:30:12 night CM Jan 20 23:30:39 stefan_schmidt: partly/partly, embedded devices would be a new game to play :) Jan 20 23:30:53 greentux_: heh Jan 20 23:31:01 ok, cu tomorrow Jan 20 23:31:09 night greentux_ Jan 20 23:34:08 CM: mine is doing the kernel Jan 21 00:02:31 stefan_schmidt: this think is building glibc 2.5, but the announcement said 2.4 - any issues? Jan 21 00:03:03 s/think/thing/ Jan 21 00:03:03 boorad meant: stefan_schmidt: this thing is building glibc 2.5, but the announcement said 2.4 - any issues? Jan 21 00:03:40 hmm, haven't seen a bot do that anywhere else... Jan 21 00:03:44 boorad: 2.4 plus a couple of patches should be fine Jan 21 00:03:54 boorad: Nothing that deep you can't fix afterwards. Jan 21 00:04:01 right, but this OE env I'm setting up is using 2.5 Jan 21 00:04:08 so I can just rebuild 2.4? Jan 21 00:04:26 boorad: the apps you build should run fine on either Jan 21 00:04:28 where do I change that? .dev/packages? Jan 21 00:04:36 XorA|gone: ok Jan 21 00:05:21 boorad: you would have to add PREFERRED_VERSION_glibc-* = "2.4.0" for each glibc varient to local.conf, look at angstrom.conf for the format Jan 21 00:05:22 boorad: Even the software of the phone itself can be different until shipping. 2.4 should be fine for your first tests. Jan 21 00:05:46 eh, 2.5 I mean Jan 21 00:05:55 gotcha, thx Jan 21 00:07:09 bah, the ABI changed from GCC 4.0 to 4.1 so the D front-end doesn't work yet Jan 21 00:31:43 Is openmoko 100% free/libre software? Or will the important things that control the radio transmitter/gps be non-free proprietary code? Jan 21 00:34:18 there are some gps elements that are non-free.. not sure about the radio transmitter Jan 21 00:35:11 sid: I beleive the radio stuff is the other end of a serial port, so no software linux side is needed Jan 21 00:35:25 sid: gsm is on a separate chip. Communication over serial interface. Jan 21 00:36:34 sid: For AGPS you need a binary daemon. Already ideas about re. IIRC normal GPS can be done without daemon, not sure about that. Jan 21 00:37:08 sid: Anything else is free. All kernel drivers, framework code, apps, etc... Jan 21 00:40:53 Is the phone DRM'd with TPM like chips to do hashes on the non-free crap? or could someone replace their AGPS binary daemon with a modified version of the free/liber GPSD project? Jan 21 00:41:29 ie, md5hashes on certain binaries and the phone won't start unless the hashes match. You would need a TPM like chip and something else to verify the hashes match etc. Jan 21 00:41:38 sid: No DRM. Replacement of the gpsd is planned. Jan 21 00:42:34 sid: Of course I have no idea how long the re will take. But you _can_ use the phone without the daemon. Jan 21 00:44:57 hmm, sid remembers me to do my daily aptitude upgrade. Jan 21 00:46:56 you upgrade daily? Jan 21 00:48:30 inivex: Yes :) Jan 21 00:48:38 I do too. Jan 21 00:50:08 i just dont even update that often, much less upgrade Jan 21 00:50:33 now i feel so..... outdated.... Jan 21 00:51:24 inivex: You don't need to. It's more like me and sid are a bit to eager for new software and filling bugs. Jan 21 00:51:38 How many years until this is available to buy? Jan 21 00:51:59 inivex: If I need my machine for something else then dev I something wait with updates. Jan 21 00:52:31 inivex: It's not fun to have a broken video card driver when doing a presentation. Jan 21 00:52:40 peanutb: ? Jan 21 00:52:50 peanutb: You mean the phone? Jan 21 00:52:54 yes Jan 21 00:53:12 it'll be available this year Jan 21 00:53:16 ok Jan 21 00:53:19 peanutb: See last link in topic. You can get the first generation phone this year Jan 21 00:53:35 ok thanks Jan 21 00:53:41 devs get theirs in march Jan 21 00:53:52 i'm jealous Jan 21 00:54:05 the way i read it, anyone could order online in march Jan 21 00:54:34 inivex: february for devs Jan 21 00:54:52 woo thats a lot of money Jan 21 00:55:05 i thought it was 3-11 for devs to buy? Jan 21 00:55:12 2-11 Jan 21 00:55:32 peanutb: That phone is without contract of a provider Jan 21 00:56:07 is the wiki down? Jan 21 00:56:14 peanutb: Normally you pay this price for such a phone _with_ 24 month contract Jan 21 00:56:19 it's asking for a username and password Jan 21 00:56:51 i paid $350 for my crackberry with a 2 year contract Jan 21 00:56:53 bobesponja: wiki.openmoko.org will allow access for everybody when first phones and code will be shipped. Jan 21 00:57:11 stefan_schmidt, i guess i need to get a real phone, i have been using one of those cheepo nokias Jan 21 00:57:20 stefan_schmidt: ok Jan 21 00:57:21 bobesponja: There is a community wiki on linuxtogo.org until this Jan 21 00:57:27 ok Jan 21 00:57:52 stefan_schmidt: to refer to my earlier request... yes, I think I need a fic person to talk to... it is not technical related Jan 21 00:58:09 peanutb: If you can wait until september you have perhaps luck and can get one with a contract for cheap Jan 21 00:58:34 I know the first generation won't have wifi because of the lack of free driver but do you know if the second generation will have it? :) Jan 21 00:59:32 franck: OK. If it's non technical I would suggest mailing Sean. mickeyl and LaF0rge are two devs working freelance for FIC, but they are technically people. :) Jan 21 00:59:53 stefan_schmidt, i dont think many phone providers (at least in the US) will go for an open source phone. Jan 21 01:00:05 bobesponja: They working hard to get wifi in v2. Jan 21 01:00:42 stefan_schmidt: cool Jan 21 01:01:18 peanutb: That's something I'm not to firm with. I'm from germany and more a technical guy then a marketing guy. Jan 21 01:01:19 stefan_schmidt: thanks, I have emailed Sean, as I found his e-mail addresss... Jan 21 01:01:26 can I replace the openmoko gui with qtopia? Jan 21 01:01:29 franck: fine Jan 21 01:02:05 stefan_schmidt: yes wifi is missing on this phone and a camera Jan 21 01:02:19 is this thing going to be powerful enough to do mpeg4 decoding? Jan 21 01:03:02 bobesponja: Of course you can. Just need to do the work. :) More serious. I already heard people speaking about doing some of the work. Jan 21 01:03:17 franck: They know. Jan 21 01:03:28 cool thanx for the info stefan_schmidt Jan 21 01:04:13 What package managment system will it use? (apt or rpm etc) Jan 21 01:04:25 i would think apt Jan 21 01:04:25 the killer application on this phone would be the capability to exchange phone $$$ Jan 21 01:04:31 cool Jan 21 01:04:31 wabz: I doubt that. mpeg4 on 480x640 needs much power. Perhaps with same assembler tweaks. Time will tell. Jan 21 01:04:43 the presentation for it said it's third feature is "apt-get install" Jan 21 01:05:00 i thought it was a FANTASTIC presentation just because of that Jan 21 01:05:06 peanutb: ipkg. Small replacement of apt and dpkg in one shell script Jan 21 01:05:14 ok Jan 21 01:05:20 and an infrared port so you can drive all your devices... Jan 21 01:05:48 stefan_schmidt: i can it can read mp4 but only at very low resolution like any other phones Jan 21 01:06:08 bobesponja: I don't know Jan 21 01:06:23 I meant, I guess it can read Jan 21 01:06:28 is there a way to do ethernet over usb on this thing? Jan 21 01:06:28 franck: Personally I think infrared is dead. My tv needs bluetooth. :) Jan 21 01:06:55 stefan_schmidt: yes that would be awesome, but till then... Jan 21 01:07:01 inivex: Yes, usbnet gadget driver in linux kernel. Will be enabled, I guess. Jan 21 01:07:31 stefan_schmidt: how about theora and vorbis? Jan 21 01:07:46 i know there is asm stuff for vorbis Jan 21 01:08:08 couldent a madwifi based wifi card be plugged into the Usb port? Jan 21 01:08:25 i guess theora is the same as mp4, only low res will work Jan 21 01:08:25 bobesponja: Sorry, no idea about the media experience. Ask me at 13-03. (/me hopes to get the dev phone within two days. :)) Jan 21 01:08:36 :) Jan 21 01:08:36 cool Jan 21 01:09:14 peanutb: You can plug any usb stuff into the usb plug, but need to power it yourself. No power on the plug from the phone. Jan 21 01:09:54 aargh, why does a kernel build fail if I like to release a new kernel patchset this night. *grumbl* Jan 21 01:13:28 puh, just a wrong .config Jan 21 01:34:42 stefan_schmidt: nano built - what can I do next? Jan 21 01:34:52 Xoo and Xephyr? Jan 21 01:35:52 boorad: bitbake task-base and perhaps you can try bitbake gpe-image Jan 21 01:37:40 stefan_schmidt: those are packages that will be on the phone? or just to get my local running? Jan 21 01:38:56 boorad: task-bae is some basement. gpe is not on the phone, just a image with many deps, so you can further test your setup. Jan 21 01:39:31 boorad: For more question wait until koen show up again. I'm not a real oe expert. :) Jan 21 01:39:38 k, forgive the newb question, but how do I fire this up? Xoo? Jan 21 01:39:49 stefan_schmidt: you're not bad ;) Jan 21 01:40:12 boorad: heh, thanks. Never used Xoo. Jan 21 01:40:30 koen told me it was better or faster than qemu, iirc Jan 21 01:42:40 ah, release is out. Enough project housekeeping for tonight. Jan 21 02:05:58 night all Jan 21 02:09:40 night stefan_schmidt **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jan 21 03:00:03 2007