**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jan 22 02:59:58 2007
Jan 22 03:45:33 <aloril> 2 weeks and 6 days for source release
Jan 22 03:47:24 <rwhitby> ... but who's counting
Jan 22 04:33:27 * aloril wonders how many will buy Neo1973 just for "Its trivial to change background and ringtone" ;-)
Jan 22 04:33:49 <WillySilly> lol
Jan 22 04:34:48 <WillySilly> Wonder how they'll give out the free neo1973's
Jan 22 04:38:04 <cying> WillySilly: golden tickets wrapped in choco-
Jan 22 04:38:06 <cying> oh wait
Jan 22 04:40:16 <rwhitby> WillySilly: "Jan 20 23:27:10 *	mickeyl now going through all coreteam@openmoko.org applications to select some devels."
Jan 22 04:40:33 <WillySilly> ah
Jan 22 04:41:17 <WillySilly> Im not much of a coder
Jan 22 04:41:29 <WillySilly> But I do some graphic design
Jan 22 05:01:41 <aloril> there exists or will soon be available 160GB USB powered mobile harddisks for 119 EUR in Finland at least
Jan 22 05:02:23 <aloril> so battery powered USB hub + above -> lots of space, you don't need to power it all the time, in something like 15minutes you can copy 1GB worth from it to micro SD
Jan 22 05:04:19 <aloril> http://www.lacie.com/fi/products/product.htm?pid=10868
Jan 22 05:05:53 <aloril> (Finnish link with price and mention that it sound be here at week 4 (so I guess even bigger will be available when Neo1973 is available): http://www.tietoasema.fi/eshop/?sid=1&pcode=301186 )
Jan 22 05:11:38 <loufoque> isn't a 1G micro SD already quite costly?
Jan 22 05:11:42 <loufoque> 1GB
Jan 22 05:13:02 <ozamosi> I wonder what will happen "if" (when, that is) I drop my neo into the floor. Will it  survive, and if it doesn't: what kind of warranty does it come with?
Jan 22 05:14:38 <aloril> not really, 34 EUR for high speed one (33 EUR for 'normal' one): http://www.tietoasema.fi/eshop/?sid=1&cid=5&gid=131&sgid=13102&vid=&pcode=SDSDQU-1024-E10M&whid=
Jan 22 05:17:33 <aloril> sure if you add hard drive + micro SD + battery powered hub + external digital camera you are over price of iPhone (but probably still under its retail price whatever it is ($200-$400 more than subsided price?))
Jan 22 05:18:08 <aloril> but you have a lot more space and much better camera; yeah and all of this takes more space too :-(
Jan 22 05:20:40 <loufoque> aloril: external stuff take more place.
Jan 22 05:20:58 <loufoque> you don't carry external camera and hdds with you
Jan 22 05:23:01 <ozamosi> loufoque: I carry my laptop with me - that's quite big and heavy...
Jan 22 05:23:03 <aloril> loufoque: I would/I do
Jan 22 05:23:26 <ozamosi> And I really carry it EVERYWHERE
Jan 22 05:23:32 <aloril> loufoque: and that hard disk is not big, about same size as phone
Jan 22 05:24:08 <loufoque> ozamosi: if you carry your laptop everywhere then you don't really need your phone to be smart, it can just be a regular phone.
Jan 22 05:25:29 <ozamosi> loufoque: the only feature I used on my old phone was the SMS feature, and that was before I had a laptop, so you're right. This is still the phone I want to send SMS:es with.
Jan 22 05:25:59 <ozamosi> And if it's cool enough, I might even check my mail with it :)
Jan 22 06:58:26 <paulproteus> Will it be possible to get IP connectivity on openmoko somehow?
Jan 22 06:58:42 <paulproteus> Even if there's no wifi, does it have the hardware necessary for using the cell network's IP service?
Jan 22 06:59:21 <rwhitby> yes and yes.  you can also get connectivity via bluetooth and usbnet
Jan 22 07:05:32 <paulproteus> It doesn't have a camera, right?
Jan 22 07:07:23 <ozamosi> no
Jan 22 07:08:12 <paulproteus> "No" means "No camera", rather than "No, you're wrong, it has a camera", right? (-:
Jan 22 07:08:25 <ozamosi> Yes :)
Jan 22 07:08:27 <ozamosi> No camera
Jan 22 07:08:36 <paulproteus> Cool, I have a good camera anyway. (-:
Jan 22 07:09:41 <guaqua> well, it has a usb connector so :)
Jan 22 07:18:29 <aloril> paulproteus: with (battery) powered usb hub you can connect any camera to it (as mass storage device at least, probably as PTP device too)
Jan 22 07:19:17 <paulproteus> aloril, I think this project sounds like the absolute best I'll be able to get before 2008.
Jan 22 07:19:24 <paulproteus> Good point re: battery powered hub.
Jan 22 07:23:17 <aloril> maybe it should be called mobile computer instead of mobile phone ;-)
Jan 22 07:24:50 <thedaniel> i'm a big fan of just "mobile"
Jan 22 07:25:54 <paulproteus> Oh, I guess I'm curious about how many hours the battery will go.
Jan 22 07:26:11 <paulproteus> Also if I will be able to wake it up from sleep periodically.
Jan 22 07:26:28 <paulproteus> Like, write a cron job that wakes it every 90m, synchronizes my podcasts, and goes back to sleep.
Jan 22 07:26:45 <paulproteus> I'd need a lower-level process than cron, obviously. (-:
Jan 22 07:27:12 <orospakr> won't the machine be running constantly?
Jan 22 07:27:27 <paulproteus> Maybe it will go to sleep or something, I don't know.
Jan 22 07:27:37 <paulproteus> Maybe GSM events cause "resume from sleep" events just in time.
Jan 22 07:27:49 <paulproteus> What do I know, I just run Linux on the Nintendo DS and laptops and desktops. (-:
Jan 22 07:28:26 <rejon> http://rejon.org/wiki/OpenMoko
Jan 22 07:28:32 <aloril> I think its done by reducing CPU speed to 1/100th or less (at least this is how you reduce power usage with HP 49G+ calculator)
Jan 22 07:28:40 <paulproteus> aloril, Hah! (-:
Jan 22 07:28:46 <aloril> uuips 1/10th or so ;-)
Jan 22 07:28:57 <aloril> or 1/20
Jan 22 07:29:05 <rejon> If anyone is interested in contributing more long term, I have put up an outline for openmoko on my wiki which I will move over to the openmoko dev. wiki once online
Jan 22 07:29:06 <rejon> http://rejon.org/wiki/OpenMoko
Jan 22 07:29:28 <xkr47> rejon, I thought we had a wiki already ?-P
Jan 22 07:29:35 <paulproteus> rejon, What, no OpenID? (-;
Jan 22 07:29:41 <rejon> there is no wiki
Jan 22 07:29:54 <guaqua> it's not open yet...
Jan 22 07:29:55 <CM> rejon: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/
Jan 22 07:30:09 <rejon> oh, my bad
Jan 22 07:30:13 <rejon> good i didn't send out that email
Jan 22 07:30:13 <johnny67_> will openmoko be openid-enabled?
Jan 22 07:30:18 <paulproteus> johnny67_, (-:
Jan 22 07:30:20 <CM> Also unofficial, so not so easy to find
Jan 22 07:30:31 <aloril> there is no official wiki, but until there is above wiki seems to in use
Jan 22 07:30:37 <rejon> just that that list is getting a bit hectic and those problematic/poisonous ppl. need to be capped with positive/redirection to the wiki
Jan 22 07:30:42 <paulproteus> Aww!
Jan 22 07:31:05 <xkr47> rejon already seems to link to the old wiki
Jan 22 07:31:10 <CM> rejon: I agree, and nice initiative on putting up a wiki
Jan 22 07:31:24 <CM> The one I linked to could need some cleaning up too..
Jan 22 07:31:33 <CM> Will be nice to have an official one
Jan 22 07:31:44 <xkr47> paulproteus, we'll just need to sit here telling people that :)
Jan 22 07:32:49 <rejon> Yes, part of the issue with the list and it going crazy is that ppl. don't have a place to channel energy
Jan 22 07:32:56 <rejon> thus, that means chaos rules
Jan 22 07:33:19 <rejon> and any and everyones platform becomes the battleground and not the actual goal of the project
Jan 22 07:35:23 <rejon> I think good strategy for focusing chaotic/poisonous talk is to just redirect those people to the wiki and getting them to add to the project rather than detract
Jan 22 07:40:47 <rejon> ok, I've started my cleanup efforts to get these discussions channeled
Jan 22 07:40:50 <rejon> anyone want to help?
Jan 22 07:41:14 <rejon> Basically, take anything that is too long and say, great, please post to the wiki and/or just post it to the wiki...that will help tremendously
Jan 22 07:41:29 <rejon> otherwise, all these threads are kinda going out into the ether
Jan 22 07:43:08 <CM> rejon: I agree. Just did something about the previously awful Ideas/Games page
Jan 22 07:43:32 <CM> Still not good, but it's at least readable now
Jan 22 08:01:20 <paulproteus> I updated http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/QuestionsAndAnswers with my Qs (and some As). (-:
Jan 22 08:04:47 <rejon> cool
Jan 22 08:04:58 <rejon> yeah, just need to channel all these discussions
Jan 22 08:05:05 <CM> paulproteus: Nice :)
Jan 22 08:05:08 <rejon> being positive about contributing helps
Jan 22 08:05:13 <rejon> plus lowers the noise level
Jan 22 08:05:37 <paulproteus> Man, my excitement over openmoko made me stay up for two more hours and now I'm hungry again.
Jan 22 08:05:51 <rejon> hahaha
Jan 22 08:09:24 <aloril> what other unreleased product has this many people in a FreeNode channel?  ;-)
Jan 22 08:10:08 <ozamosi> aloril: you tell me - you're the one CONSTANTLY monitoring the number of persons in this channel, and comparing it to every other channel on the network :P
Jan 22 08:10:22 * paulproteus grins at ozamosi 
Jan 22 08:10:39 <paulproteus> It's like a MySpace or a Facebook group, we're busy counting membership. (-:
Jan 22 08:11:46 <ozamosi> Hm...
Jan 22 08:11:56 * ozamosi wonder how one gets carma points
Jan 22 08:12:03 <paulproteus> Er, you're not going to *start* a MySpace gropu are you?
Jan 22 08:12:17 <paulproteus> re: hungry: Good thing I bought groceries earlier today.  /me goes off and makes a bedtime snack
Jan 22 08:15:21 <rejon> yah, well, if this project does nothing, at least the interest is real and can be channeled in other ways... ;)
Jan 22 08:16:03 <rejon> is there a wiki page on software/sync'ing yet
Jan 22 08:16:18 <paulproteus> rejon, http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS7056478804.html
Jan 22 08:16:44 <rejon> I really want to get opensync.org on track
Jan 22 08:17:13 <rejon> that funambol project is real hairy java
Jan 22 08:17:58 <paulproteus> "But it happens to work" (-;
Jan 22 08:21:13 <rejon> i haven't had much luck with it
Jan 22 08:21:28 <rejon> I have been trying to use it through www.scheduleworld.com
Jan 22 08:23:40 <aloril> ozamosi: yeah, it seems interest is increasing daily, also seems that iPhone announcement had bigger effect than slashdotting
Jan 22 08:24:46 <ozamosi> aloril: yeah, I was suprised to se the max number of logged in users after the slashdoting was only 1-2 persons more than the day before (according to your statistics)
Jan 22 08:25:38 <aloril> (I have a script so monitoring new records is almost zero effort ;-)
Jan 22 08:29:04 <ozamosi> Yes... You took the time to write a script to count the number of people in this channel...
Jan 22 08:29:52 <rejon> that is cool
Jan 22 08:30:10 <Paladine> ozamosi, you one of the dudes responsible for this little piece of freedom?
Jan 22 08:31:27 <Paladine> Neo1973 - Freedom in the palm of your hand...
Jan 22 08:31:56 <Paladine> "They can take our call plans but they will never take our Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom!"
Jan 22 08:32:41 <Paladine> should get Mel Gibson to a Braveheart inspired TV commercial for the Neo
Jan 22 08:35:39 <aloril> ozamosi: actually more than few, about 10% increase from slashdotting, most of its effect was felt probably next day (EET)
Jan 22 08:36:10 <aloril> however, iPhone was over 50% increase ;-)
Jan 22 08:36:40 <Paladine> yeah so nice of Apple to do the marketing for us :)
Jan 22 08:40:23 <hrw|work> morning
Jan 22 08:42:53 <greentux> morning arounf
Jan 22 08:43:05 <greentux> hrw|work:  congrates! for the new job.
Jan 22 09:04:37 <mattb> Moss-Pultz acknowledges, "I have to give mad props to Nokia."...
Jan 22 09:04:49 <mattb> how often do you hear a representative of your cellphone maker 
Jan 22 09:04:53 <mattb> say "mad props" 
Jan 22 09:04:54 <mattb> :)
Jan 22 09:33:25 <CM> Managed to get OpenMoko mentioned in Swedens biggest weekly tech newspaper: http://www.nyteknik.se/art/48697 (In swedish)
Jan 22 09:35:28 <rejon> cool
Jan 22 09:35:32 <rejon> wikitize that :)
Jan 22 09:38:40 <CM> Yeah, is it a collection with mentionings in the news?
Jan 22 09:40:18 <CM> There is.. 
Jan 22 09:40:22 * CM updates
Jan 22 09:42:34 <rejon> yes
Jan 22 09:42:43 <rejon> http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/PressCoverage
Jan 22 09:42:50 <rejon> sorry for all the bulk replies y'all
Jan 22 09:43:00 <rejon> i have been adding value to the wiki and not just posting the same link
Jan 22 09:43:01 <rejon> promise
Jan 22 09:43:23 <CM> rejon: Yes, found and updated :)
Jan 22 09:43:56 <rejon> anyway, when there is no code to hack on, so many ppl. get misdirected and want to shoot the messenger and argue on whatever opinion they value strongly...I'ma  big boy...done this much ;)
Jan 22 09:47:11 <rejon> night
Jan 22 09:47:24 <hrw|work> thx greentux 
Jan 22 09:49:55 <tld> Any plans of a WLAN capable version?
Jan 22 09:50:22 <hrw|work> yes
Jan 22 09:50:31 <hrw|work> tld: 2007-09 or later
Jan 22 09:50:41 <tld> :(
Jan 22 09:51:17 <tld> In order to properly "Free Your Phone" it'd be a great step to support VoIP and the like, allowing you to really take charge.
Jan 22 09:51:22 <tld> Might work fine over GPRS though.
Jan 22 09:51:24 <XorA> why is everyone obsessed with WLAN?
Jan 22 09:51:33 <tld> VoIP/SIP
Jan 22 09:51:36 <CM> I don't get that either
Jan 22 09:51:40 <XorA> tld: ever used a WLAN phone?
Jan 22 09:51:41 <plaes> XorA: because soon it is everywhere..
Jan 22 09:51:48 <tld> XorA, Yes.
Jan 22 09:52:02 <greentux> somebody remind the openmoko meeting in finland or norway before fosdem?
Jan 22 09:52:04 <tld> XorA, Works great, battery sucks.
Jan 22 09:52:07 * XorA owns one and your lucky to get 2 hours battery life out of it, 4-6 days without WLAN
Jan 22 09:52:17 <plaes> XorA: what phone?
Jan 22 09:52:23 <XorA> HTC Wizard
Jan 22 09:52:26 <tld> Norway?
Jan 22 09:52:33 * tld has been fairly happy with a Nokia N80
Jan 22 09:53:08 <tld> Just thinking your phone isn't really freed up until you can call using your own soft-pbx or softswitch.
Jan 22 09:53:27 <aloril> tld: you can get battery powered usb hub + wifi stick
Jan 22 09:53:52 <tld> aloril, True, and a good idea.  It wouldn't be a cellphone anymore though.
Jan 22 09:54:36 <sjoerd> tld: using the PAN profile of bt should allow you to do that too..
Jan 22 09:55:59 <tld> Hmmm, that'd actually work rather nicely.
Jan 22 09:56:24 <tld> Any ongoing work being done on a SIP softphone for the phone?
Jan 22 09:56:55 <CM> tld: Not yet. The code isn't out yet, but in 3 weeks it will be
Jan 22 09:57:01 <aloril> tld: umm.. existing software should work? (unless there is some work to do to scale to VGA screen)
Jan 22 09:57:19 <tld> aloril, Yeah, but it's just not the same as having something integrated.
Jan 22 09:57:21 <parag0n> gtk software should
Jan 22 09:57:32 <Tv> well, integration is hard then the platform isn't released
Jan 22 09:57:33 * tld ponders if this is something his employer would be interested in contributing to.
Jan 22 09:57:50 <Tv> s/then/when/
Jan 22 09:57:50 <apt> Tv meant: well, integration is hard when the platform isn't released
Jan 22 09:57:51 <aloril> tld: think OpenMoKo as Linux distribution running in a bit limited hardware ;-)
Jan 22 09:58:20 <tld> this might turn out to be pretty fun
Jan 22 10:00:03 * sjoerd has some crazy ideas of doing some telepathy magic on the openmoko
Jan 22 10:00:32 <sjoerd> So you might just say send a message to this person and it sends an jabber if your phone is online and the contect is online on jabber and an sms otherwise, that kinda stuff
Jan 22 10:00:56 * aloril bets that battery powered wifi addon will be popular and SIP software will work soon well integrated
Jan 22 10:01:07 <aloril> tld: I guess what you mean is integrated with address book, etc..
Jan 22 10:01:23 <sjoerd> (and the same magic for voice obviously)
Jan 22 10:01:51 <tld> aloril, well, that, and a similar 'look and feel'
Jan 22 10:02:13 <tld> aloril, stock linphone won't really be too sexy on it
Jan 22 10:11:02 <aloril> tld: I doubt feb version will have it, dunno about march version, probably sure thing for sep version (these are just my guesses)
Jan 22 10:12:15 <tld> aloril, Anyone working on it?  (just asking, since my employer could possibly be interested in donating some time.  not sure though)
Jan 22 10:15:26 <aloril> tld: I don't know, but I think answer is no, I think they are working on core stuff
Jan 22 10:15:52 <aloril> tld: I guess once feb comes, we will a lot more on what is actually happening (20 days) ;-)
Jan 22 10:17:01 <tld> :)
Jan 22 10:20:08 * aloril thinks answer to many software questions of "Will it have this or that" will be "depends on what community does"
Jan 22 10:20:57 <aloril> of course 64MiB flash size limits what will be bundled (not so for user with micro SD)
Jan 22 10:22:23 <spikebik1> 64MB is pretty big actually
Jan 22 10:22:46 <aloril> yes, but how much of this is left free for user stuff?
Jan 22 10:23:23 * aloril prefer to fill more of it and just assume user gets micro SD though
Jan 22 10:23:50 <aloril> personally I would like to see some stripped down python to be included (all libraries is too big ;-)
Jan 22 10:23:52 <spikebik1> yeah
Jan 22 10:24:04 <spikebik1> nokia770 often has python
Jan 22 10:24:58 <tld> python would be nice
Jan 22 10:25:11 <spikebik1> googlemaps equiv for the nokia770 is only a 100kb download
Jan 22 10:27:38 <aloril> I think current source doesn't include any scripting language, but it should become bundled with one: making it easy to add stuff even inside phone is good for user
Jan 22 10:28:35 <spikebik1> let the market decide
Jan 22 10:28:41 <spikebik1> java's really popular in the phone space
Jan 22 10:29:27 <aloril> spikebik1: yeah, I suspect it will be bundled with java, but you don't really code with java inside phone ;-)
Jan 22 10:29:43 <aloril> (well.. you can, but I doubt it would ever come bundled with requisite stuff ;-)
Jan 22 10:30:43 <aloril> running j2me applications != developing ones
Jan 22 10:30:49 <spikebik1> inside a phone is not an ideal place for code devel
Jan 22 10:30:58 <aloril> while with scripting language its same thing
Jan 22 10:31:19 <aloril> spikebik1: yeah, true, but I do intend to develop stuff inside phone too ;-)
Jan 22 10:31:34 <tm> lo
Jan 22 10:31:39 <aloril> spikebik1: but I think creating small ad hoc scripts should suit phone
Jan 22 10:31:51 <spikebik1> dunno
Jan 22 10:31:58 <spikebik1> with input so limited
Jan 22 10:32:04 <spikebik1> and interaction so tough
Jan 22 10:32:35 <aloril> spikebik1: hmm.. sure it stays limited? I think we will invent methods to input stuff in reasonable speed
Jan 22 10:33:17 <aloril> this is VGA screen after all and people certainly coded 20 years ago with those machines ;-)
Jan 22 10:37:10 <XorA> 80x25 used to be my machine
Jan 22 10:39:03 <aloril> ad hoc script: a bit more advanced filter rule for profiles for example
Jan 22 10:40:35 <aloril> or .. special answering button -> run ringer trough special voice menu which might contain code fragments to handle stuff
Jan 22 10:41:00 <aloril> you can't provide GUI for everything, you can't anticipate all user needs ;-)
Jan 22 10:41:46 * aloril intends to install gcc, etc.. 
Jan 22 11:02:41 <florian> good morning
Jan 22 11:04:09 <aloril> hi florian 
Jan 22 12:46:33 <Twigman> Neo1973 looks amazing!
Jan 22 12:57:44 <Demitar> I keep wanting to ask when I can get a Neo1973, even though I know I'll have to wait until march. :)
Jan 22 13:04:55 <aloril> Demitar: hehe
Jan 22 13:55:24 <meyerm> morning
Jan 22 13:55:38 <letoto> morning :)
Jan 22 14:25:47 <theike01> /usr/bin/fluxbox
Jan 22 15:18:18 <aloril> "... will you be taking pre-orders
Jan 22 15:18:18 <aloril> > before 2007-3-11 ?
Jan 22 15:18:18 <aloril> Yes. -Sean" http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001880.html
Jan 22 15:20:45 <noidd> that is good news
Jan 22 15:20:51 <noidd> the more devices out there the better
Jan 22 15:21:41 <Garoth> kinda disappointing specs compared to the iPhone, but much better software <3
Jan 22 15:22:23 <letoto> yeah, wifi should be added asap. even if only via sdio
Jan 22 15:22:32 <Garoth> I was thinking space
Jan 22 15:22:46 <Garoth> What is the point of having a oss device with 64 mb of space?
Jan 22 15:23:09 <Garoth> You couldn't even put all your photos on that little, let alone install and hack on software
Jan 22 15:23:28 <hrw|work> Garoth: add bigger uSD card
Jan 22 15:23:42 <Garoth> Yeah, then the cost is comparable to the iPhone...
Jan 22 15:24:04 <hrw|work>  then blame fic for size limit
Jan 22 15:24:05 <Garoth> Well... depending on the card, of course.
Jan 22 15:24:17 <Garoth> So there is no hope of them increasing it?
Jan 22 15:24:22 <hrw|work> PCB lack space for larger nand chips
Jan 22 15:24:30 <Garoth> Hmmm...
Jan 22 15:24:59 <Garoth> Then again... it has usb (1.1??) so you could plug in your 4 gig flash drive
Jan 22 15:25:23 <leventhal> iPhone is subsidized, Neo1973 isn't
Jan 22 15:25:44 <letoto> it's not cheaper. $500 USD plus the penalty of a 2 year subscription with Cingular
Jan 22 15:26:11 <hrw|work> iPhone is ONLY for U.S.A. citizens
Jan 22 15:26:17 <Garoth> I didn't say it was cheaper....
Jan 22 15:26:20 <hrw|work> Neo1973 is worldwide
Jan 22 15:26:40 <Garoth> Mind you, iPhone will be for the world as well, they are just taking too long with it
Jan 22 15:26:42 <hrw|work> for me THIS is blocker in iphone
Jan 22 15:26:47 <Garoth> But don't get me wrong....
Jan 22 15:26:48 <hrw|work> Garoth: in 2008?
Jan 22 15:27:00 <Garoth> I love open source, and I'll buy a neo way before i buy Apples' stuff
Jan 22 15:27:05 <Garoth> yeah, 2008 is dumb
Jan 22 15:27:40 <Garoth> Yeah.
Jan 22 15:27:44 <leventhal> You guys have launch dates at least
Jan 22 15:27:48 <leventhal> Canada still is ignored
Jan 22 15:27:50 <hrw|work> Garoth: apple will release iphone to cingular in q2/q3 2007. neo1973 v1 will get into worldwide in q3 2007
Jan 22 15:27:53 <aloril> Garoth: 1GB micro SD costs 33 EUR
Jan 22 15:28:11 <hrw|work> q3 2007 is also work on neo1973 v2
Jan 22 15:28:15 <letoto> q3 only?
Jan 22 15:28:16 <Garoth> And the other big thing will be when this takes off, and more devices are made.
Jan 22 15:28:18 <letoto> what about march?
Jan 22 15:28:30 <Garoth> march is development release
Jan 22 15:28:36 <Garoth> complete release is september
Jan 22 15:28:58 <Garoth> aloril, didn't know they dropped in price so much, cool.
Jan 22 15:29:02 <letoto> the difference being? price? availability?
Jan 22 15:29:11 <Garoth> I don't know
Jan 22 15:29:15 <aloril> Neo1973 also has 4x more pixels 
Jan 22 15:29:20 <Garoth> I guess they want to make sure that the platform is stable
Jan 22 15:29:22 <aloril> and of course 
Jan 22 15:29:28 <Garoth> yeah, I love the more pixels, I noticed.
Jan 22 15:29:34 <aloril> and of course *the* killer feature: source code
Jan 22 15:29:37 <Garoth> yeah.
Jan 22 15:29:47 <Garoth> Question, what is multi-touch exactly?
Jan 22 15:29:52 <Garoth> And why is it such a big deal?
Jan 22 15:30:26 <mickeyl> ppüs
Jan 22 15:30:26 <aloril> I suspect 2GB micro SD might be much cheaper June (now 77 EUR)
Jan 22 15:30:46 <Garoth> 77 eur is a lot by my standards (Canadian)
Jan 22 15:30:56 <letoto> but using the SD slot with storagem and you cannot have iwfi
Jan 22 15:30:57 <letoto> wifi
Jan 22 15:31:04 <Garoth> Yeah.
Jan 22 15:31:05 <skome> Garoth: ability to use two or more fingers at the same time. Pinch to resize, or rotate, etc. Cool.
Jan 22 15:31:06 <aloril> letoto: its under battery
Jan 22 15:31:06 <letoto> so you cannot put applications that use wifi on SD
Jan 22 15:31:08 <TRIsoft> mickeyl: ppüs ??
Jan 22 15:31:13 <mickeyl> heh
Jan 22 15:31:15 <Garoth> skome, thanks
Jan 22 15:31:23 <mickeyl> TRIsoft: that was supposed to be 'oops'
Jan 22 15:31:29 <mickeyl> but with a horizontal keyboard offset of +1
Jan 22 15:31:31 <mickeyl> heh
Jan 22 15:31:37 <Garoth> Yeah, wifi is a must, I guess
Jan 22 15:31:37 <TRIsoft> mickeyl: lol
Jan 22 15:31:52 <Garoth> Why can't they put a usb 2.0 as well... man.
Jan 22 15:31:54 <skome> wifi needs a big ol' battery
Jan 22 15:31:58 <aloril> you can use battery powered USB hub and WiFi stick though
Jan 22 15:32:08 <Garoth> Yeah, the battery needs to be improved to
Jan 22 15:32:10 <leventhal> Garoth: 2GB SanDisk card for $67 on buy.com
Jan 22 15:32:13 <leventhal> Cdn
Jan 22 15:32:19 <Garoth> Nice.
Jan 22 15:32:35 <Garoth> Still not 4 GB, but its good enough
Jan 22 15:32:47 <Garoth> 1.2 hour battery life is dumb, imo
Jan 22 15:32:51 <leventhal> Damn.. my mistake, that was US dollars
Jan 22 15:32:58 <aloril> by the time iPhone is available at Canada I bet 4 GB is available and reasonably cheap ;-)
Jan 22 15:33:00 <letoto> battery powered wifi stick? sounds good is it SD, because I assume USB wont work
Jan 22 15:33:39 <aloril> letoto: it has unpowered USB host support, so 'just' add battery powered USB hub
Jan 22 15:33:41 <leventhal> there is a microSDIO wifi card yes.. I don't expect much of it though and you'd also be depriving yourself of storage
Jan 22 15:33:43 * stefan_schmidt suggest new folks to read http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/QuestionsAndAnswers
Jan 22 15:34:46 <Garoth> ok
Jan 22 15:35:01 <Garoth> So it uses pure gtk?
Jan 22 15:35:30 <letoto> http://www.coolest-gadgets.com/20051118/everything-wifi-on-a-stick/
Jan 22 15:35:32 <letoto> Hmmmm
Jan 22 15:35:36 <stefan_schmidt> Only one more is needed for 200 people in the channel
Jan 22 15:35:38 <mickeyl> hmm btw.
Jan 22 15:35:46 <mickeyl> did you guys see Sean's interview video @ youtube?
Jan 22 15:35:47 <stefan_schmidt> hi mickem 
Jan 22 15:35:52 <stefan_schmidt> hi mickeyl 
Jan 22 15:36:03 <TRIsoft> mickeyl: Yep, was nice
Jan 22 15:36:03 * stefan_schmidt has no flash installed
Jan 22 15:36:12 <Garoth> yeah, good video
Jan 22 15:36:17 <Garoth> Handsome dude.
Jan 22 15:36:29 <Garoth> Oh, flash 9 is out for Linux, I recommend it.
Jan 22 15:36:34 <mickeyl> pretty cool and friendly at the same time
Jan 22 15:36:40 * mickeyl enjoys working with him
Jan 22 15:36:47 <aloril> MetaMorfoziS: you are 200th person on the channel
Jan 22 15:37:07 <MetaMorfoziS> again;)
Jan 22 15:37:09 <MetaMorfoziS> hi all;)
Jan 22 15:37:16 <Garoth> hey
Jan 22 15:37:17 <MetaMorfoziS> yesterday i'm the 198th
Jan 22 15:37:18 <skome> I was just going to suggest: http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash
Jan 22 15:37:19 <leventhal> letoto: Damn.. that thing is really cool
Jan 22 15:37:38 <skome> unless you just don't like Flash ;-)
Jan 22 15:37:45 <Garoth> Yeah, the new flash is so awesome. Finally alsa sound.
Jan 22 15:37:48 <MetaMorfoziS> is this device have enough power for that?
Jan 22 15:37:54 <letoto> leventhal: yeah. and it might work with the neo
Jan 22 15:37:55 <MetaMorfoziS> it's very exciting
Jan 22 15:38:05 <leventhal> Garoth: Yeah, I was surprised and happy about that. Very nice to not need aoss.
Jan 22 15:38:06 <MetaMorfoziS> (for flash?)
Jan 22 15:38:41 <Garoth> Yeah, Flash9, Linux, ALSA, Faster, Much better sync
Jan 22 15:38:45 <skome> errr, I just meant for stefan_schmidt, to watch an interview
Jan 22 15:39:00 <Garoth> Aha.
Jan 22 15:39:13 <Garoth> #1 thing to port to this new platform: NETHACK
Jan 22 15:40:20 <Garoth> hmmm... so no providers for the neo yet?
Jan 22 15:40:28 <Garoth> As in service providers?
Jan 22 15:40:47 <letoto> http://eye.fi/
Jan 22 15:40:51 <skome> It's unlocked; any GSM provider should work. Cingular, T-Mobile in the US
Jan 22 15:41:15 <ajturner> letoto, the eye-film is pretty neat
Jan 22 15:41:35 <Garoth> I don't know much about cell phones -- how could you connect to these networks?
Jan 22 15:41:42 <aloril> Garoth: hmm.. www.openembedded.org doesn't have nethack, but still I think simple recompile might work
Jan 22 15:41:57 <Garoth> aloril, I'm happy someone knows what I'm talking about :D
Jan 22 15:42:02 <ajturner> Garoth, GSM is supported on T-Mobile & Cingular/AT&T
Jan 22 15:42:07 <Garoth> Yeah, it wouldn't take much to get it working.
Jan 22 15:43:08 <Garoth> What is GSM?
Jan 22 15:43:08 <Garoth> (Don't have a clue about cell phones, don't have one)
Jan 22 15:43:10 <ajturner> essentially, if you have a T-Mobile or Cingular account, you can put the Sim Chip from the phone you got from them into the Neo to use it on their network
Jan 22 15:43:28 <Garoth> So... does that require opening up your phone?
Jan 22 15:43:39 <ajturner> so if you want to use the neo - I would suggest getting a "free" phone from T-Mobile, which has 1 yr contracts, and then use the Neo
Jan 22 15:43:48 <skome> only the battery port. No tools.
Jan 22 15:43:48 <ajturner> usually behind the battery compartment
Jan 22 15:44:03 <Garoth> Is this meant to be easy to do?
Jan 22 15:44:11 <skome> Yes.
Jan 22 15:44:13 <ajturner> skome - right, so < 1 min, and *very* easy to do, like popping a memory card out of a camera
Jan 22 15:44:20 <Garoth> Oh, ok.
Jan 22 15:44:34 <Garoth> I thought it was like.... installing a chip into an embedded device :X
Jan 22 15:44:48 <Garoth> That's very cool then.
Jan 22 15:44:51 <ajturner> nope - Sim chips are grand 
Jan 22 15:45:01 <skome> You can (usually) use the SIM in other phones too.
Jan 22 15:45:19 <Garoth> Yeah. I'm thinking that this thing may be my first cell phone (I'm a late bloomer)
Jan 22 15:45:28 <ajturner> I'd say ;)
Jan 22 15:45:45 <skome> Guess it depends on your vintage ;-)
Jan 22 15:45:49 <Garoth> Lol
Jan 22 15:46:09 <Garoth> Big step forward for OSS, I'm excited.
Jan 22 15:46:44 <Garoth> I hope it sells well as a cheaper iPhone.
Jan 22 15:47:09 * aloril is surprised that http://www.openembedded.org/ doesn't already have package for nethack
Jan 22 15:48:03 <Garoth> Yeah, it should.
Jan 22 15:48:35 <Garoth> Anyways, i need to shuffle on. Nice talking to you guys.
Jan 22 15:48:42 <Garoth> Bye.
Jan 22 15:53:00 <hrw|work> aloril: nethack buildsystem is a nightmare
Jan 22 16:19:06 <stefan_schmidt> letoto: I just found the recording of your 23C3 talk. Somehow I missed it. I watch it in the evening. http://debian.tu-bs.de/mirror/ccc/23C3/video/23C3-1495-en-green_phone.m4v
Jan 22 16:19:18 <aloril> new record: 202 nicks
Jan 22 16:19:30 <xkr47> :)
Jan 22 16:19:32 <boorad> CM: ping
Jan 22 16:29:03 <CM> boorad: Pong :)
Jan 22 16:29:18 <boorad> hey
Jan 22 16:29:29 <boorad> my gpe-image barfed on xserver-xorg
Jan 22 16:29:42 <CM> Same here, on xserver-xorg-X11R7.1-1.1.0
Jan 22 16:29:59 <boorad> | accessx.c:(.text+0x4fc): undefined reference to `XkbGetControls'
Jan 22 16:30:08 <boorad> so you haven't gotten further, then?
Jan 22 16:30:18 <boorad> I was just asking in #oe, no answers
Jan 22 16:30:33 <CM> Nope, stuck there too
Jan 22 16:30:54 <CM> Maybe we can try to block that version or something
Jan 22 16:30:57 <hrw|work> try to build libxkb or xkb
Jan 22 16:32:43 <CM> thanks, I'll try
Jan 22 16:33:08 <hrw|work> libxkbui or libxkbfile
Jan 22 16:33:23 <alp> CM: see this mail? http://lists.ximian.com/pipermail/mono-list/2007-January/033991.html -- am wondering where the question is
Jan 22 16:34:53 <CM> alp: I can't see any question there... But mono on moko sounds nice
Jan 22 16:36:40 <alp> yeah, we'll have it going, and a nice set of bindings and managed d-bus client apis is in order
Jan 22 16:36:50 <CM> hrw|work: Seems like those ones have been built already. Or it can't find any of them. Just says: NOTE: build 200701221805: completed, Attempted builds: 0
Jan 22 16:37:07 <CM> alp: Cool :)
Jan 22 16:37:09 <alp> the ball was dropped a bit in the early days of the maemo platform which was a shame
Jan 22 16:37:46 <hrw|work> cu
Jan 22 16:37:57 <CM> I saw that post on p.g.o yesterday by MDK
Jan 22 17:24:01 <boorad> CM: p.g.o ?
Jan 22 17:25:07 <boorad> planet.gnome.org?
Jan 22 18:21:20 <noidd> Random question
Jan 22 18:21:29 <noidd> is the target machine "native" known to misbehave?
Jan 22 18:21:43 <noidd> I can cross-compile wonderfully but "native" blows up in my face
Jan 22 18:22:18 <noidd> this is native on x86 btw :-)
Jan 22 18:22:29 <noidd> nm
Jan 22 18:22:36 <CM> boorad: Yes, I subscribe to that rss :)
Jan 22 18:22:56 <CM> boorad: Any progress on x11?
Jan 22 18:23:14 <boorad> MDK is the guy who got D running on the nokia, and I want to try with the Neo
Jan 22 18:23:22 <boorad> nope, I'm asking around in #oe, with no takers
Jan 22 18:23:58 <mickeyl> yes, I'm afraid native isn't being looked after for quite a while
Jan 22 18:30:18 <noidd> Ok, as long as I know
Jan 22 18:30:40 <noidd> I want to build and test and figured that native would be the best target to start with
Jan 22 18:30:51 <noidd> I need to get myself up to speed and re-contributing
Jan 22 18:31:02 <noidd> looks like I'm about to have a love affair with qemu
Jan 22 18:31:13 <CM> Hehe
Jan 22 18:31:17 <noidd> boorad: D, as in the language D?
Jan 22 18:31:41 <CM> I wish qemu would work fine with gcc-4.x and amd64..
Jan 22 18:31:47 <CM> noidd: Think so
Jan 22 18:31:48 <boorad> noidd: yes
Jan 22 18:33:30 <Stepan> yes, the gcc4 issue is really nasty. and i think paul stopped his native backend work, did he?
Jan 22 18:34:05 * noidd tries to get an almost full perl distribution to fit in 3M
Jan 22 18:34:06 <CM> Latest I heard gcc-4.x was supposed to work for 0.8.4
Jan 22 18:34:15 <noidd> 90% shrinkage should be doable :-)
Jan 22 18:34:45 <CM> noidd: Sounds like me swimming in the sea here when it's 12 degrees.. ;)
Jan 22 18:35:09 <xkr47> 47 days! 4 hours! 54 minutes!
Jan 22 18:35:22 <noidd> hehe, we need a real timer :-)
Jan 22 18:35:48 <xkr47> perl -e '$|=1;$x='`date --date "2007-03-11 00:00:00 GMT" +%s`';while(1){$t=time();$d=$x-$t;$s=$d%60;$d/=60;$m=$d%60;$d/=60;$h=$d%24;$d/=24;printf("\r%d days %2d:%02d:%02d",$d,$h,$m,$s);sleep(1);}'
Jan 22 18:35:52 <xkr47> there you go
Jan 22 18:36:02 <xkr47> run it in your favourite terminal :)
Jan 22 18:36:04 <leventhal> I'll set it on my blog and race openmoko vs iphone
Jan 22 18:36:12 <leventhal> iphone is undefined so i bet openmoko will win
Jan 22 18:36:12 <xkr47> leventhal, :DD
Jan 22 18:43:54 <noidd> xkr47: Another perl hacker - rock on
Jan 22 18:44:23 <xkr47> :)
Jan 22 18:45:50 <noidd> gotta build the XS modules for the new OpenMoko Gtk2 classes
Jan 22 19:01:12 <MDK> boorad: I got reply from David
Jan 22 19:01:31 <MDK> boorad: he's working on support for 4.1.x, he's 50% done
Jan 22 19:01:50 <MDK> boorad: when that's finished, gdc should run fine for arm-*-gnueabi
Jan 22 19:05:14 <boorad> MDK: I got that same reply myself ;)
Jan 22 19:05:49 <boorad> he said a couple of weeks and 4.1.1 might be ready
Jan 22 19:19:12 <CM> ~ugt
Jan 22 19:19:18 <apt> i heard ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
Jan 22 19:19:45 <koen> MDK: that's good news about D
Jan 22 19:20:01 <variant> apt: lol nice
Jan 22 19:37:49 <Psi_> does anyone know when this appeared on the openmoko website? "We had some hardware issues that set us back about a month. But now we're back on track and should start shipping in February."
Jan 22 19:38:14 <MDK> Psi_: some time ago, before the annoucement
Jan 22 19:38:20 <Psi_> ah, k
Jan 22 19:38:21 <Fletch> topic
Jan 22 19:38:48 <Psi_> Fletch, i cant see anywhere in the topic that it says the date of those words
Jan 22 19:46:25 <Psi_> do you think the reason for a 2.5mm headphone jack is because of space available in the phone?
Jan 22 19:46:34 <Psi_> seems quite odd otherwise
Jan 22 19:48:20 <hrw> 2.5mm are standard in phones
Jan 22 19:48:45 <Psi_> ah
Jan 22 19:48:45 <hrw> you can get headsets with 2.5mm without problems
Jan 22 19:48:52 <Psi_> cool
Jan 22 19:49:14 <mickeyl> yes, it's because of space
Jan 22 19:49:15 <hrw> getting good headset with 3.5mm is hard - you can get voip ones but they are rather huge
Jan 22 19:50:09 <Psi_> its not too bad, ya just have to solder a 2.5mm plug on or use an adapter
Jan 22 19:50:20 <hrw> http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-01/mcgyver-paperclip.jpg
Jan 22 19:50:32 <Psi_> hrw, didnt you mean 2.5?
Jan 22 19:50:35 * xkr47 wonders if nokia headsets with 4-wire 2.5mm connectors are compatible
Jan 22 19:51:41 <Psi_> hrw,  ah, i get you
Jan 22 19:51:59 <hrw> xkr47: stereo HP + mic?
Jan 22 19:52:07 <xkr47> mono + button
Jan 22 19:52:11 <xkr47> + mic
Jan 22 19:52:28 <hrw> I use SE 750i with original stereo HP + mic + button
Jan 22 19:52:33 <xkr47> can't open these without breaking them.. so I dunno if there's any logic inside
Jan 22 19:52:40 <hrw> rather not
Jan 22 19:52:43 <xkr47> with moko ?
Jan 22 19:52:56 <xkr47> or what's SE750i ?-)
Jan 22 19:53:28 <hrw> Sony Ericsson k750i cellphone
Jan 22 19:53:53 <xkr47> ah ok
Jan 22 19:54:05 <hrw> Bt 1.x, memorystick duo slot, 2mpix camera, 30MB of internal memory, 176x220 screen
Jan 22 19:54:18 <xkr47> anyway maybe they use the same connector wiring, just that I have mono only since I have no radio
Jan 22 19:54:21 <xkr47> or mp3 playing
Jan 22 19:54:36 <hrw> xkr47: I have calls in stereo
Jan 22 19:54:36 <xkr47> nice
Jan 22 19:54:42 <xkr47> woot :)
Jan 22 19:54:45 <xkr47> voip ?
Jan 22 19:54:51 <hrw> normal gsm ones
Jan 22 19:55:17 <xkr47> strange.. never heard you could have stereo phone calls
Jan 22 19:55:20 <xkr47> :)
Jan 22 19:55:42 <hrw> why not? it is just simple routing of audio
Jan 22 19:56:36 <xkr47> well maybe with gsm.. but I still think of phone technology as it was when you had wired telephone connections
Jan 22 19:59:19 <xkr47> :)
Jan 22 19:59:20 <greentux> hrw:  gsm has not the bandwidth for stereo calls. you need two phones
Jan 22 19:59:22 <hrw> bbiab
Jan 22 19:59:39 <xkr47> hmm yeah :)
Jan 22 20:01:27 <hrw> greentux: I'm not saying about gsm part but gsm(mono)->phone(mono->stereo)->headphones(stereo)
Jan 22 20:01:38 <xkr47> ah
Jan 22 20:04:11 <noidd> Heh, I friend of mine just said this on another channel:
Jan 22 20:04:13 <noidd> <StooWork> http://www.fic.com.tw/service/branches.aspx    5020 Brandin Court, Fremont, CA 94538
Jan 22 20:04:13 <noidd> <StooWork> Less than 2 miles away - no, about those smoke and stun grenades
Jan 22 20:04:23 <noidd> he is impatient
Jan 22 20:09:42 <marcellus> Was there any reason why Maemo wasn't adopted?
Jan 22 20:10:54 <koen> yes
Jan 22 20:10:58 <hrw> marcellus: maemo need 800x480 resolution and waste space
Jan 22 20:11:09 <koen> marcellus: it requires a patched gtk
Jan 22 20:11:25 <hrw> koen: and many other patched-like-hell libs
Jan 22 20:11:37 <xkr47> you know what, it feels great to have so many experts around :)
Jan 22 20:11:39 * koen looks at MDK regarding osso-gtk
Jan 22 20:11:47 <koen> hrw: not anymore :)
Jan 22 20:12:02 <koen> hrw: as far as I found out, gtk+ is the only patched to hell dep for maemo3
Jan 22 20:12:14 <koen> maemo1 and maemo2 requires forks of nearly everything
Jan 22 20:12:18 <xkr47> you feel like "I can just lay back for a while, and things will go right.. and when I feel there's job for me, I just hop in and it's like everybody was expecting you :)"
Jan 22 20:12:43 <koen> marcellus: see http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2006/10/28/gtk-theming-woes-for-embedded-guis/
Jan 22 20:18:51 <xkr47> good link (tm)
Jan 22 20:19:24 * xkr47 wonders if fic will ship phones from the office closest to the buyers or how..
Jan 22 20:20:31 <variant> nah, they will ship them to hk first so there is a central distribution point ;)
Jan 22 20:20:49 <xkr47> hk ?-)
Jan 22 20:21:13 <variant> hongkong
Jan 22 20:24:24 <leventhal> I love ordering from hong kong
Jan 22 20:24:39 <leventhal> There's flights HK -> Toronto daily and customs doesn't bother to convert HK$ to Cdn$ for taxes.. usually they don't charge any.
Jan 22 20:24:55 <leventhal> Most of the time I get stuff from HK faster than from the US
Jan 22 20:24:58 <xkr47> lol
Jan 22 20:25:19 <guaqua> haha
Jan 22 20:25:37 <guaqua> i wonder what's the case for ordering to finland
Jan 22 20:25:55 <guaqua> probably $350 + shipping + 22% VAT
Jan 22 20:26:20 <leventhal> .. hm. I hope they declare it in HK$ rather than US$
Jan 22 20:26:46 <mikesh> guaqua: 19% to czech
Jan 22 20:26:56 <guaqua> not that much cheaper :/
Jan 22 20:26:59 <leventhal> 15% here.. but 15% of estimated Canadian value. :/
Jan 22 20:27:03 <hrw>  22% in Poland
Jan 22 20:27:31 <guaqua> we pay no special customs stuff, only vat for electronics
Jan 22 20:27:44 <mikesh> thats true
Jan 22 20:30:07 <guaqua> so the price with shipping and all is probably around 350 euros
Jan 22 20:30:24 <koen> probably more
Jan 22 20:30:41 <buz> vat alone is about 18% in EU
Jan 22 20:30:42 <koen> $350 == €350 when it comes to worldwide shopping
Jan 22 20:31:07 <guaqua> that 350 is with shipping and finnish vat
Jan 22 20:34:10 <buz> how much vat in .fi
Jan 22 20:36:01 <variant> openmoko will have 2mp camera right?
Jan 22 20:36:07 <Psi_> no
Jan 22 20:36:12 <Psi_> not the first version
Jan 22 20:36:19 <variant> no cam at all?
Jan 22 20:36:20 <Psi_> and its not called openmoko
Jan 22 20:36:27 <LoRez> neo1973
Jan 22 20:36:30 <variant> yeah sorry hehe
Jan 22 20:36:36 <Psi_> no camera in first version
Jan 22 20:36:39 <variant> ok
Jan 22 20:36:48 <variant> it's a phone not a camera after all :)
Jan 22 20:36:52 <Psi_> specs of the second version is unknown
Jan 22 20:36:57 <guaqua> buz: 22%
Jan 22 20:37:02 <buz> ouch
Jan 22 20:37:24 <guaqua> and also, vat != sales tax
Jan 22 20:37:35 <variant> open moko mailing lists are very busy it seems!
Jan 22 20:37:41 <Psi_> hehe yeah
Jan 22 20:38:04 <wabz> they're so full of noise I unsubscribed
Jan 22 20:38:19 <wabz> my msgs never got to it either, which was a bit odd
Jan 22 20:38:51 <variant> is the physical design of the new1973 (that seen in photos onthe web) finnished? It looks pretty dam nice in my view
Jan 22 20:39:02 <variant> neo*
Jan 22 20:39:09 <CM> VAT in Sweden is 25%... *sigh*
Jan 22 20:39:16 <koen> fwiw: python-core + libpython = 0.5MB on arm when built with OE
Jan 22 20:39:17 <wabz> yeah i want to see a photo of it in someone's hand :p
Jan 22 20:39:28 <koen> wabz: search flickr
Jan 22 20:39:34 <Psi_> wabz, yeah, we all do
Jan 22 20:39:34 <wabz> CM: do you guys pay any income tax?
Jan 22 20:40:09 <CM> wabz: 33% for the first 50k USD/year, then higher up to 55% or so..
Jan 22 20:40:13 <koen> wabz: http://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/351010014/
Jan 22 20:40:16 <greentux> hrw:  ok, understand
Jan 22 20:40:16 <wabz> woah
Jan 22 20:40:25 <CM> It's no joke..
Jan 22 20:40:36 <wabz> cool koen 
Jan 22 20:40:45 <wabz> is that a huge hand? :p
Jan 22 20:40:52 <CM> Hehe... Sure is
Jan 22 20:40:52 <koen> :)
Jan 22 20:41:12 <CM> boorad: Got gpe-image built after koens update of xorg-server
Jan 22 20:41:22 <Psi_> koen, nice
Jan 22 20:41:30 <variant> koen: looks nice.. 
Jan 22 20:41:31 <CM> boorad: Update your mtn database and upsate org.open..
Jan 22 20:41:32 <boorad> CM: coolness - svn up?
Jan 22 20:41:39 <boorad> ooh, mtn, sorry
Jan 22 20:41:45 <variant> I take it it will have onscreen keypad only?
Jan 22 20:41:47 <Psi_> i wonder if there will be any color options, and if so, what they will be
Jan 22 20:42:15 <guaqua> i hope there are no
Jan 22 20:42:21 <koen> mtn pull ; mtn up
Jan 22 20:42:25 <CM> boorad: Do the mtn --db=...  pull monotone.openembedded.org org.openembedded.dev first
Jan 22 20:42:30 <CM> Aha, just pull?
Jan 22 20:42:38 * CM has no clue of monotone
Jan 22 20:42:45 * boorad doesn't either
Jan 22 20:42:58 <boorad> CM: download a new db first?
Jan 22 20:43:07 <CM> Yes, as koen said :-)
Jan 22 20:43:13 <CM> pull it
Jan 22 20:43:23 <koen> cd org.openembedded.dev ; mtn pull ; mtn up
Jan 22 20:43:36 <variant> Psi_: http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/fic_traveler_handset_fic-gta001.jpg
Jan 22 20:43:41 <variant> Psi_: colours :)
Jan 22 20:44:12 <Psi_> ah, of cause, i forgot
Jan 22 20:44:51 <noidd> I still want to know why the hole in the phone :-)
Jan 22 20:44:59 <Psi_> still, we dont know exactly how many colors / outerrings there are
Jan 22 20:45:17 <variant> noidd: for a handy strap :)
Jan 22 20:45:17 <Psi_> noidd, are we sure its actually a hole?
Jan 22 20:45:34 <noidd> I am about 99% sureit is now
Jan 22 20:45:40 <variant> It should have handwriting recognition of course.. or not?
Jan 22 20:45:41 <noidd> look at the video on youtube
Jan 22 20:45:49 <noidd> you can see Seans fingers through the hole
Jan 22 20:46:06 <Psi_> variant, it will if someone writes one
Jan 22 20:46:13 <variant> Psi_: hehe
Jan 22 20:46:24 <Psi_> so, i guess thats a yes :)
Jan 22 20:47:18 <Psi_> noidd, yeah, i agree, you can see the finger through the hole
Jan 22 20:52:38 <rob_w> italian army , hehe 
Jan 22 20:53:24 <rob_w> thousands of applications .. yeayeah dude 
Jan 22 20:54:31 <variant> i want to see quake 1/2 and doom  ported to it asap.. :D
Jan 22 20:54:40 <Psi_> heh
Jan 22 20:55:16 <thedaniel> bluetooth HID profile gamepads - they must exist, right?
Jan 22 20:55:20 <boorad> CM: did gpe-image rebuild a bunch of other packages (again) after the mtn up?
Jan 22 20:55:25 <hrw> variant: prboom is ready, quake1 too
Jan 22 20:55:56 <hrw> thedaniel: they are
Jan 22 20:56:57 <variant> awsome
Jan 22 20:57:30 <rwhitby> wii controller is bluetooth, right?
Jan 22 20:57:40 <thedaniel> it is
Jan 22 20:57:41 <Psi_> lol
Jan 22 20:57:45 <thedaniel> the accelerometers anyway
Jan 22 20:57:55 <rwhitby> neo in one hand, wii controller in the other.
Jan 22 20:57:58 <koen> rwhitby: http://pigeond.net/?cat=flightgear&comments=fg-wiimote
Jan 22 20:57:59 <thedaniel> the pointer needs an ir reference
Jan 22 20:58:08 <leventhal> rwhitby: and use them to control a roomba?
Jan 22 20:58:22 <noidd> hmm, gpe-image just blew up on me during bbimage
Jan 22 20:58:28 <noidd> time to go a'diggin'
Jan 22 21:00:10 <guaqua> the thing i
Jan 22 21:01:19 <guaqua> the feature i'd like to see the most is good syncing capabilities between the phone and the various apps i have on my own computer. the way apple does them...get podcasts automatically, calendar syncs automatically...
Jan 22 21:01:33 <guaqua> is there a "wishlist" somewhere? :)
Jan 22 21:03:21 <morricone> the unofficial Wiki
Jan 22 21:04:58 <rwhitby> I want it to seamlessly roam between bluetooth access points at my home and work ...
Jan 22 21:06:05 <koen> mobile ipv6!
Jan 22 21:06:36 <guaqua> rwhitby: :D
Jan 22 21:06:45 <leventhal> mobile ipv6 would be awesome
Jan 22 21:07:13 * koen needs to get his ipv6 tunnel back up
Jan 22 21:08:48 * guaqua needs to go bomb down sixxs for taking the net and tunnel away :<
Jan 22 21:09:32 <leventhal> i finally got ipv6 set up.. so yeah, time to buy a ton of domains and get silly vhosts
Jan 22 21:09:43 <icblenke> no net and tunnelling?
Jan 22 21:10:22 <guaqua> they decided i was giving away ipv6 connections to others...
Jan 22 21:11:08 <guaqua> ...and that was deduced from the fact that i used the nameservers of a big shell provider
Jan 22 21:12:10 <LittleIdiot> well, that often implies dns pollution and that forbidden by their policies ;)
Jan 22 21:12:24 <LittleIdiot> has anyone of you tested mobile ipv6 yet?
Jan 22 21:12:40 <guaqua> afaik kapsi (which is the shell provider) has stricter dns pollution rules than sixxs
Jan 22 21:12:52 <guaqua> and i'm also an sysadmin of kapsi...so i should know...
Jan 22 21:12:57 <leventhal> guaqua: Yeah.. but I intend to pollute dns.
Jan 22 21:13:15 <hrw|gone> cu
Jan 22 21:23:38 <Ghiottone> hi all
Jan 22 21:25:13 <LittleIdiot> i was thinking a bit about the idea of using the neo as home automation controller... how about a bluetooth headset batch in the form of the ones they use at the enterprise? ;)
Jan 22 21:25:47 <LittleIdiot> well, just a microphone actually
Jan 22 22:14:11 <caicon> iI have a q to the mass... sorry... I didn´t have much time to read - my INet keeps on colapsing - when is the Neo1973 starting to ship?
Jan 22 22:14:41 <guaqua> feb something
Jan 22 22:14:51 <caicon> to Ger too??
Jan 22 22:15:08 <Ghiottone> no it is going to ship on march 11
Jan 22 22:15:50 <caicon> March 11 is the 70th day of the year in the Gregorian Calendar (71st in Leap year).  There are 295 days remaining..... ;-)... Trillian is a great tool^^
Jan 22 22:16:39 <xaviderman> hLO
Jan 22 22:16:47 <paulproteus> Hey now xaviderman.
Jan 22 22:16:55 <ciacon> hi xaviderman
Jan 22 22:17:07 <xaviderman> hi to all
Jan 22 22:17:07 <xaviderman> halo
Jan 22 22:17:11 <xaviderman> ciacon
Jan 22 22:17:17 <xaviderman> paulproteus
Jan 22 22:17:37 <ciacon> jo
Jan 22 22:17:39 <xaviderman> how re u?
Jan 22 22:17:56 <xaviderman> jo?
Jan 22 22:18:01 <guaqua> gua@angeldust:~$ ddate 10 03 2007
Jan 22 22:18:01 <guaqua> Prickle-Prickle, Chaos 69, 3173 YOLD
Jan 22 22:18:18 <paulproteus> I'm pretty well!
Jan 22 22:21:01 <xaviderman> great
Jan 22 22:21:11 <xaviderman> where r u?
Jan 22 22:21:28 * xaviderman slaps tm around a bit with a large trout
Jan 22 22:21:32 * xaviderman slaps ChanServ around a bit with a large trout
Jan 22 22:40:01 <bprice20> is this room ever busy?
Jan 22 22:40:02 * xkr47 made this SICK javascript http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tmp/openmoko-pixldown.html
Jan 22 22:40:27 <alphaone> LOL
Jan 22 22:40:37 <bprice20> why and the bored would you do that
Jan 22 22:40:42 <xkr47> :D
Jan 22 22:41:19 <bprice20> Thats also assuming you have a lock on a date
Jan 22 22:41:51 <xkr47> mm
Jan 22 22:42:32 <SpeedEvil> First time visitor, /window log on
Jan 22 22:42:34 <SpeedEvil> oops
Jan 22 22:43:27 <SpeedEvil> Sigh. First impressions and all. :) Is the phone US only, or will it work in the UK?
Jan 22 22:43:44 <guaqua> quad-band
Jan 22 22:43:50 <xkr47> the phone is GSM 4-band with GPRS, bluetooth and GPS
Jan 22 22:44:06 <Psi_> i thought it was triband?
Jan 22 22:44:22 <icblenke> no EDGE?
Jan 22 22:44:31 <SpeedEvil> :)
Jan 22 22:44:37 <bprice20> agps.
Jan 22 22:44:45 <bprice20> no edge yet.
Jan 22 22:44:49 <SpeedEvil> Almost perfect - I'd like wifi. 
Jan 22 22:44:56 <bprice20> wouldn't we all 
Jan 22 22:44:58 <Psi_> Ti GPRS (2.5G not EDGE)
Jan 22 22:44:58 <LittleIdiot> everybody does ;)
Jan 22 22:45:07 <SpeedEvil> I gathered :)
Jan 22 22:45:24 <paulproteus> SpeedEvil, I hear the follow-up phone might have it (a Linuxdevices.com interview mentioned the possibility).
Jan 22 22:45:24 <bprice20> as I was reading apparently they can't do wifi yet do to licensing all the good chipsets have closed source drivers
Jan 22 22:45:25 <LittleIdiot> why not ralink? they have open drivers
Jan 22 22:46:17 <bprice20> I am guessing that ralink if they have open drivers did not meet the requirements for power usage
Jan 22 22:46:35 <Psi_> this first phone, is, i think, to get lots of people developing apps for the OS
Jan 22 22:46:40 <Psi_> hence, cheap
Jan 22 22:47:07 <SpeedEvil> Yeah - power is a horrible problem in a phone.
Jan 22 22:47:09 <guaqua> 350 gringos is not cheap
Jan 22 22:47:16 <bprice20> now mind you, when dealing with 802.11x chipsets there are really 2 parts of what would be called "a driver"
Jan 22 22:47:17 <SpeedEvil> It's not expensive.
Jan 22 22:47:17 <guaqua> 200 would be cheap
Jan 22 22:47:24 <Psi_> ^
Jan 22 22:47:31 <SpeedEvil> Subsidised phones are _often_ at the 350 level
Jan 22 22:47:36 <bprice20> there is the actual kernel module and.... anyone care to interject or should I continue
Jan 22 22:47:41 <guaqua> well the price is borderline okay
Jan 22 22:47:51 <LittleIdiot> its mid-range... there are some phones that cost much more and have smaller non-touchscreen displays...
Jan 22 22:47:58 <SpeedEvil> the bit in the wifi card processor?
Jan 22 22:48:39 <bprice20> no speedy, the actual firmware that talks bits to the physical asics
Jan 22 22:48:59 <bprice20> think of it as an abstraction layer
Jan 22 22:49:13 <SpeedEvil> The firmware in the processor.
Jan 22 22:49:22 <SpeedEvil> I mean.
Jan 22 22:49:30 <bprice20> you got it
Jan 22 22:50:05 <bprice20> so you will find cards that have reverse engineered drivers that have the kernel module part but not the firmware
Jan 22 22:50:16 <SpeedEvil> zydas
Jan 22 22:50:22 <SpeedEvil> they ship linux source drivers.
Jan 22 22:50:28 <SpeedEvil> For the USB stick.
Jan 22 22:50:45 <bprice20> which is enough to make the card work but not enough if say you wanted to come up with some zip bang way to improve the performance of the card
Jan 22 22:50:48 <SpeedEvil> Though I assume there are power reasons why it won't work.
Jan 22 22:50:58 <SpeedEvil> yeah - you want the embedded code too.
Jan 22 22:51:21 <SpeedEvil> Be able to blip the radio on and off for example.
Jan 22 22:51:24 <bprice20> speedy, can you find out what chipset they use, cause thats what you would actually need to know to begin to look into the firmware
Jan 22 22:51:29 <bprice20> yes
Jan 22 22:51:49 <SpeedEvil> Zydas is a chipset maker AIUI.
Jan 22 22:52:02 <bprice20> never heard of em
Jan 22 22:52:27 <bprice20> and the firmware?
Jan 22 22:52:41 <SpeedEvil> http://www.umc.com/english/news/20040414.asp
Jan 22 22:52:50 <bprice20> any ideas that you think are good ones should probably be posted on the non official wiki
Jan 22 22:52:52 <SpeedEvil> the firmware is a binary blob of course.
Jan 22 22:53:00 <bprice20> till a real one comes online
Jan 22 22:53:08 <SpeedEvil> Where is it - I haven't found it.
Jan 22 22:53:37 <bprice20> err 1 sec
Jan 22 22:53:46 <SpeedEvil> Only found out about this a few mins ago. I'll go google.
Jan 22 22:53:52 <bprice20> http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko
Jan 22 22:54:38 <SpeedEvil> ah, thanks.
Jan 22 22:54:46 <bprice20> np
Jan 22 22:55:48 <bprice20> There is too much chatter in the mailing list as usual irc is much better
Jan 22 22:55:54 <bprice20> more intelligent questions
Jan 22 22:56:59 <LittleIdiot> but you can't delete whole threads in irc ;)
Jan 22 22:57:00 <retracile> the wifi chip OLPC is using might prove interesting for the 2nd version.
Jan 22 22:57:16 <bprice20> true,
Jan 22 22:59:16 <so_solid_moo> that's also non-free tho
Jan 22 22:59:25 <cjb> retracile: Probably too overengineered/expensive for the openmoko.  It's a very powerful chip.
Jan 22 22:59:33 <cjb> so_solid_moo: The driver is GPL, the firmware is a blob.
Jan 22 23:00:06 <cjb> retracile: It has an embedded CPU/RAM, so that it can continue to forward packets while the host computer's asleep, for example.  Other wifi chips don't do that.
Jan 22 23:00:54 <retracile> cjb: point.  I was thinking about it from the power consumption & open drivers side.
Jan 22 23:01:32 <cjb> yeah, makes sense for that.  but so would a Lucent Wavelan from 2000.  ;-)
Jan 22 23:02:23 <bprice20> wow someone else that remembers those things
Jan 22 23:02:35 <cjb> bprice20: more than remembers -- I still use one.  :)
Jan 22 23:02:48 <cjb> I don't like binary blobs, so not much choice.. 
Jan 22 23:02:51 <xorAxAx> cjb: in a newton? :)
Jan 22 23:03:22 <xorAxAx> ah, the blob is the reason
Jan 22 23:03:30 <cjb> xorAxAx: notice the card sticking out of http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Image:AP1_39.jpg :)
Jan 22 23:03:48 * xorAxAx wonders, what a non-binary blob is
Jan 22 23:03:53 <xorAxAx> hehe
Jan 22 23:04:14 <SpeedEvil> I assume nthere are no pictures?
Jan 22 23:04:26 <SpeedEvil> Obfuscated source?
Jan 22 23:04:35 <SpeedEvil> Or p-code
Jan 22 23:04:39 <cjb> I heard that the wireless chip the xbox 360 uses (connected by usb, I think?) is extremely similar to the olpc's, to the point that the same Linux kernel driver works.
Jan 22 23:04:42 <cjb> SpeedEvil: of what?
Jan 22 23:04:52 <xorAxAx> SpeedEvil: no, try harder :)
Jan 22 23:05:05 <cjb> oh, wait -- the openmoko has USB?  so, we could just connect a USB wifi adaptor to it?
Jan 22 23:05:06 <bprice20> does anyone know if there will be an embedded web browser
Jan 22 23:05:07 <SpeedEvil> The firmware of the radio microcontroller, or driver hardware.
Jan 22 23:05:17 <SpeedEvil> yes, you can - through a powered hub
Jan 22 23:05:18 <xorAxAx> cjb: if you power it, yes
Jan 22 23:05:25 <cjb> Ah, that's more difficult.
Jan 22 23:05:52 <cjb> Are there any candidate USB wireless cards that are self-powered that we might use?
Jan 22 23:05:53 <SpeedEvil> It'd be nice if there was a standard extension format.
Jan 22 23:06:00 <SpeedEvil> No.
Jan 22 23:06:18 <SpeedEvil> However, it's trivial to glue 2 AAA batteries and a step-up converter together.
Jan 22 23:06:53 <cjb> Right.  :)
Jan 22 23:06:56 <SpeedEvil> Which should give several hours.
Jan 22 23:06:57 <Psi_> heh
Jan 22 23:07:50 <cjb> Yeah.  If someone were to actually build them, I think you'd have a few thousand openmoko buyers interested.  :)
Jan 22 23:07:53 <SpeedEvil> It'd be nice if there was a battery out connector next to the USB connector, all on one end, which peripherals could just clip onto.
Jan 22 23:09:24 <cjb> buy cheap USB wireless dongles that have Linux drivers available, put in altoids can with batteries/convertor attached, put on Internet for $50-$100, profit.  :)
Jan 22 23:09:31 <SpeedEvil> I suppose li-ion AAA cells may be the better way to go.
Jan 22 23:11:06 <SpeedEvil> I assume no pictures, or exact mechanical drawings are available.
Jan 22 23:11:19 <cjb> of what?
Jan 22 23:11:31 <SpeedEvil> The phone.
Jan 22 23:11:48 <cjb> yeah, not that I've seen.
Jan 22 23:11:50 <SpeedEvil> Or I've been very lucky in avoiding them.
Jan 22 23:11:52 <SpeedEvil> K
Jan 22 23:12:53 <bprice20> SpeedEvil there are pictures
Jan 22 23:12:58 <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately no time at the moment to do any serious work - currently trying to put my house back together - http://www.mauve.plus.net/walls/
Jan 22 23:13:07 <SpeedEvil> There are?
Jan 22 23:13:11 <cjb> bprice20: He means internal pictures, I presume.
Jan 22 23:13:11 <bprice20> there are some in th press release
Jan 22 23:13:31 <bprice20> no internals 
Jan 22 23:13:33 <bprice20> sorry
Jan 22 23:13:37 <cjb> SpeedEvil: url doesn't resolve
Jan 22 23:13:53 <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately no time at the moment to do any serious work - currently trying to put my house back together - http://www.mauve.plus.com/walls/
Jan 22 23:14:27 <bprice20> looks like my 1st apartment
Jan 22 23:14:52 <cjb>       http://www.mauve.plus.com/walls/
Jan 22 23:14:54 <cjb> oops
Jan 22 23:15:14 <SpeedEvil> Oooh - pretty.
Jan 22 23:15:36 <cjb> ?
Jan 22 23:15:53 <SpeedEvil> The phone. Nice clean simple design.
Jan 22 23:17:03 <SpeedEvil> And if it was the walls - currently uninsulated + fuel bills too high + insulation = win.
Jan 22 23:29:22 <nnpiggy> xorAxAx did you get your question about binary blobs answered? (just skimming last half hour...)
Jan 22 23:29:37 <xorAxAx> nnpiggy: you misread the question :)
Jan 22 23:30:18 <xorAxAx> nnpiggy: cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLOB
Jan 22 23:30:20 <nnpiggy> Ah. non-binary blob...
Jan 22 23:30:36 <nnpiggy> :-)
Jan 22 23:31:00 <xorAxAx> ok, its backronym
Jan 22 23:32:17 <nnpiggy> I spend much of my day playing with ternary blobs...
Jan 22 23:32:38 <Chris_Ze_German> Not trying to flamebait, but what is the difference between openmoko and zaurus?
Jan 22 23:32:57 <TRIsoft> openmoko is a phone, a zaurus is a zaurus
Jan 22 23:33:07 <thedaniel> well no
Jan 22 23:33:11 <thedaniel> that's not accurate mr TRIsoft 
Jan 22 23:33:23 <TRIsoft> OK, main difference is keyboard and CF capability ;-)
Jan 22 23:33:29 <nnpiggy> GPS & GPRS...
Jan 22 23:33:38 <TRIsoft> That too
Jan 22 23:33:40 <thedaniel> TRIsoft: openmoko is the software
Jan 22 23:33:41 <Chris_Ze_German> Or better phrased, what makes openmoko more likely to gain massadoption then zaurus?
Jan 22 23:33:45 <thedaniel> neo1973 is the first device
Jan 22 23:34:27 <TRIsoft> yes ?
Jan 22 23:34:56 <TRIsoft> OK, more serious now...
Jan 22 23:35:06 <TRIsoft> a Zaurus is a shrinked Linux-Laptop
Jan 22 23:35:17 <TRIsoft> Interesting for professionals, business
Jan 22 23:35:34 <TRIsoft> OpenMoko has the big opportunity to hit the mass market
Jan 22 23:35:35 <nnpiggy> Linux has really taken a major hold in the cell-phone market. When the Zarus came out, Linux was still becoming established in the business community...
Jan 22 23:35:44 <LittleIdiot> i'm using my sl 5500 as a voip phone ;)
Jan 22 23:36:01 <TRIsoft> Yes, but beside of the community, nobody cares for the OS
Jan 22 23:36:21 <TRIsoft> That was the Zaurus-Problem. Loooked like a PDA, but it wasn't one
Jan 22 23:36:37 <nnpiggy> Not true--Linux developers are much easier to get than say Symbian developers. The phone makers care.
Jan 22 23:36:44 <TRIsoft> The Neo could be bought and used by the average guy buying a smartphone
Jan 22 23:37:18 <TRIsoft> nnpiggy: You're right. We lived well in the past years from developers and the linux community.
Jan 22 23:37:24 <TRIsoft> But this isn't mass-market
Jan 22 23:37:35 <TRIsoft> And you need the mass-market for success
Jan 22 23:38:05 <TRIsoft> One of our customers is running 1000+ SL-C series
Jan 22 23:38:19 <TRIsoft> But that's a little number to be interesting for manufaturers
Jan 22 23:38:27 <TRIsoft> and that's the reason for the death of the Zaurus
Jan 22 23:38:37 <nnpiggy> Perhaps a valid question to ask about the Neo1973, but OpenMoko itself (the software platform) may finally provide enough attraction by itself to drive commoditization of the phone hardware...
Jan 22 23:39:17 <TRIsoft> Definitey. And this will create a very new level for support teams ;-)
Jan 22 23:39:44 <TRIsoft> "Sir, what hardware are you using, and what OS / kernel ?"
Jan 22 23:40:16 <LittleIdiot> "gtk or qt?"
Jan 22 23:40:19 <LittleIdiot> ...and so on ;)
Jan 22 23:40:24 <nnpiggy> You betcha! About jolly time too...
Jan 22 23:40:41 <xkr47> pixldown v2 !! http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tmp/openmoko-pixldown2.html
Jan 22 23:40:44 <Chris_Ze_German> ok, that makes more sense, the work is going into the software platform which provides almost turn-key for hardware makers, correct?
Jan 22 23:40:48 <TRIsoft> "Oh, you're running Apache on 2.4.20 on the Moko clone from Asus, sorry. No support. :D"
Jan 22 23:41:11 <nnpiggy> That's the idea, Chris_Ze_German
Jan 22 23:41:34 <SpeedEvil> I assume there are no battery life numbers for playing MP3s?
Jan 22 23:41:40 <leventhal> I got an iPod nano for Christmas, and decided that 4 GB is just not enough and that I needed an iPod video.
Jan 22 23:41:52 <leventhal> oops
Jan 22 23:41:55 <leventhal> mispaste, sorry
Jan 22 23:42:42 <Chris_Ze_German> are there specifications/documents/api's for application developers available yet?
Jan 22 23:43:02 <nnpiggy> Sort of...
Jan 22 23:44:38 <TRIsoft> Simply wait 3-4 more weeks and there will pop up a lot of sites with interesting informations.
Jan 22 23:44:50 * SpeedEvil spins up his time machine.
Jan 22 23:45:57 <TRIsoft> SpeedEvil: Don't forget the lottery numbers ;-)
Jan 22 23:47:10 <SpeedEvil> How accessible is the phone hardware likely to be? I could see an app that was able to register as multiple phones being interesting. I assume there must be some protection to stop 'bad' uses.
Jan 22 23:47:22 <thedaniel> Chris_Ze_German: when the developer devices are sent out, they're releasing that sort of info
Jan 22 23:47:29 <nnpiggy> The recent roadmap announcement gave a lot of particulars. E.g. you'll want to develop to the GObject API...
Jan 22 23:47:43 <paulproteus> SpeedEvil, Linux gets a serial connection to the GSM modem as I recall.
Jan 22 23:47:47 <cjb> SpeedEvil: not that accessible.  :)
Jan 22 23:47:51 <paulproteus> Chris_Ze_German, There's some info on that on the unofficial wiki.
Jan 22 23:47:53 <cjb> SpeedEvil: you issue AT commands.
Jan 22 23:47:57 <SpeedEvil> Thought not.
Jan 22 23:48:04 <thedaniel> Chris_Ze_German: did you see this? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html
Jan 22 23:48:09 <SpeedEvil> Can you make voice calls under programmatic control though?
Jan 22 23:48:24 <TRIsoft> Guess, there's no fun with funny IMEA infos ;-)
Jan 22 23:48:25 <nnpiggy> Yes, SpeedEvil.
Jan 22 23:48:38 <TRIsoft> *IMEI
Jan 22 23:48:42 <SpeedEvil> :) Sigh - wish I had time to actually work on this stuff now :(
Jan 22 23:50:23 <Chris_Ze_German> thedaniel: Thanks, I'll have a look.
Jan 22 23:57:13 <Chris_Ze_German> so is there anything technical available today (source/api/doc), or is wait till feb?
Jan 22 23:57:24 <cjb> feb.
Jan 22 23:58:12 <Chris_Ze_German> that seems strange to me. wouldn't you want to get input/review right from the beginning?
Jan 23 00:00:00 <LittleIdiot> they're either afraid that releasing more details will lead to more questions or they haven't decided yet what things to use
Jan 23 00:00:35 <LittleIdiot> please, let it NOT be opie.
Jan 23 00:01:11 <cjb> Since they're about to sell a phone to the general public with a complete set of software, I think it's fairly clear that they've decided what to use.
Jan 23 00:01:47 <cjb> (And there is that kind of information, but not source/API level information, in the latest roadmap document.)
Jan 23 00:02:05 <LittleIdiot> well x.org isn't much ;)
Jan 23 00:03:26 <Chris_Ze_German> what's wrong with more questions?
Jan 23 00:04:01 <LittleIdiot> no time for development
Jan 23 00:14:01 <dougt> emails to coreteam@openmoko.org are creating trouble tickets
Jan 23 00:18:52 <cjb> Sounds sensible, given how much mail they must be getting.
Jan 23 00:31:31 <dougt> slashdot'ed?
Jan 23 00:32:48 <dougt> is there a scratchbox that can be downloaded?
Jan 23 01:08:20 <sumasuma> shall i make video call with this phone with 3G ?
Jan 23 01:08:25 <cjb> it doesn't support 3G.
Jan 23 01:08:34 <sumasuma> oh ok
Jan 23 01:18:52 <sumasuma> atleast i expect 3G and wifi support in the smart phones
Jan 23 01:19:09 <sumasuma> it looks like the phone which i bought 10 years back
Jan 23 01:20:25 <sumasuma> anyway 99% of the mobile users are not programmers, so you can also kindly target to users so that they can use in an efficient way
Jan 23 01:21:35 <Psi_> if you want lots of features, wait for the next version of the phone
Jan 23 01:26:10 <cjb> sumasuma: it sounds like you're saying that since the phone doesn't appeal to you, it should change.  perhaps instead you should just buy a different phone.
Jan 23 01:26:56 <jaebird> since the phone does not have an fpga, it MUST change
Jan 23 01:42:30 <dougt> what web browser choices do users have?
Jan 23 01:47:12 <bprice20> dougt I asked that very same question 
Jan 23 01:47:32 <bprice20> I suppose you could get an ipkg of something like firefox
Jan 23 01:47:40 <dougt> minimo
Jan 23 01:47:43 <dougt> :-)
Jan 23 01:47:43 <bprice20> what embedded browsers are there
Jan 23 01:48:14 <dougt> is there a developer page that details where I can get started?
Jan 23 01:48:46 <dougt> oh shit. nm
Jan 23 01:49:04 <dougt> this is really nice -- it is all OE based.
Jan 23 01:49:13 <paulproteus> OE?
Jan 23 01:49:18 <dougt> http://www.openembedded.org/
Jan 23 01:49:38 <paulproteus> As far as I can tell, these guys are going out of their way to be as open as possible.
Jan 23 01:49:52 <dougt> it is the one true way to build things for embedded linux.  when god builds things, he uses something similar to oe.
Jan 23 01:50:26 <bprice20> well as far as a list of embedded browsers for linux go... here
Jan 23 01:50:29 <bprice20> http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT9202043619.html
Jan 23 01:51:19 <dougt> there are others. :-)
Jan 23 01:51:35 <dougt> dillo is similar to PocketIE (for those with ce phones)
Jan 23 01:52:32 <bprice20> this thing could dual boot cold it now
Jan 23 01:54:54 <sumasuma> cjb: i just gave my opinion, i don't want you to change the phone !
Jan 23 01:55:23 <sumasuma> cjb: As a customer i have variety of choices, need not worry about it
Jan 23 02:02:31 <rwhitby> must ... refrain ... from ... replying ... to ... renaissance ... man ...
Jan 23 02:04:04 <noidd> haha
Jan 23 02:04:08 * rwhitby notes that Sean's wording of http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001720.html was extremely diplomatic in that it did not agree or disagree with any of the sides of the current GNU/Linux debate.
Jan 23 02:04:08 <noidd> he's trolling
Jan 23 02:04:10 <noidd> let it go
Jan 23 02:04:12 <thedaniel_> for science's sake,please refrain
Jan 23 02:04:25 <rwhitby> don't worry, there's no way I'm gonna reply :-)
Jan 23 02:04:37 <thedaniel_> that particular troll is fat and happy from all the scraps he has been thrown and it will take a while for him to waste away
Jan 23 02:04:45 <thedaniel_> he doesn't need any more feeding :)
Jan 23 02:04:50 <rwhitby> indeed.
Jan 23 02:05:02 <variant> the phone will support micro sd cards right? all the way up to 2gb?
Jan 23 02:05:10 <variant> GB*
Jan 23 02:05:26 <thedaniel_> variant: i think it can only address 1g
Jan 23 02:06:22 <corndog> will the neo have bluetooth when it comes out?
Jan 23 02:07:03 <sumasuma> wiki says Bluetooth 2.0 EDR will be there, not sure of the software
Jan 23 02:07:44 <variant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_Field_Communication <-- cool!
Jan 23 02:07:44 <aloril> oh no, I have question that probably needs to be resolved, but might lead to 50-200 mail flamefest :-(
Jan 23 02:07:54 <variant> aloril: lol, can't be as bad as the gnu/linux vs linux one
Jan 23 02:07:58 <ajturner> ooh - tinder for the fire!
Jan 23 02:08:01 <sumasuma> corndog: i have lot of open source device without device drivers, sleeping in the drawers for years
Jan 23 02:08:27 <aloril> variant, thedaniel_ : its unknown if it will support up to 2GiB or even up to 4GiB (later might require software changes)
Jan 23 02:09:36 <aloril> question is this: its probably good idea to have official wiki under some license and I don't see license mentioned at http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko
Jan 23 02:09:57 <variant> aloril: haha yes, a very good idea but helluva flamefest your right!!
Jan 23 02:09:58 <aloril> but I guess everybody contributes will agree to any license official selects ;-)
Jan 23 02:10:07 <rwhitby> aloril: excellent question.
Jan 23 02:10:20 * rwhitby gets out the peanuts and beer to watch that one ...
Jan 23 02:10:34 * variant slams gfdl down on the table
Jan 23 02:10:40 <aloril> anyway, we want to move unofficial content to official site and I think license question is better resolved now than later ..
Jan 23 02:11:34 <variant> agreed
Jan 23 02:13:25 <rwhitby> put it under the OMPL.
Jan 23 02:14:25 <rwhitby> (the OMPL is a new license that says that anyone who clogs mailing lists with licensing discussions is not allowed to use this documentation)
Jan 23 02:14:36 <dougt> does anyone have hw yet?
Jan 23 02:15:08 <rwhitby> dougt: OpenMoko employees - devs get theirs in three weeks.
Jan 23 02:15:38 <dougt> 3/11?
Jan 23 02:15:47 <variant> rwhitby: lol
Jan 23 02:17:34 <aloril> variant: gfdl is compatible with wikipedia, which is major good point
Jan 23 02:17:35 <rwhitby> dougt: 3/11 = 0.27 (recurring)  11 Feb is when selected devs get devices.
Jan 23 02:17:50 <dougt> oic.
Jan 23 02:18:20 <aloril> rwhitby: hehe, started to google on that term ;-)
Jan 23 02:18:35 <dougt> any suggestions to whom I would ask if binary sucked on the device or not?
Jan 23 02:18:41 <rwhitby> OpenMoko Public License
Jan 23 02:19:01 <rwhitby> binary sucked?
Jan 23 02:20:56 <dougt> needed to add an "a" in that sentence, didn't I.
Jan 23 02:21:46 <dougt> if I port an application over, and don't have a device, is there anyone that might be able to quickly look over it to see if there are any terrible performance problems, etc...
Jan 23 02:24:19 <aloril> ok: irc poll: how many here would be OK with GFDL for wiki/documentation?
Jan 23 02:24:52 <tchuladdiass> dougt: from looking at the specs for the device, and from my experience with arm processors (lack of floating point, etc.), the main areas you have to watch out for is floating point performance and video.
Jan 23 02:24:54 * aloril is OK with it, its compatible with wikipedia
Jan 23 02:25:09 <cjb> aloril: I wouldn't, since it's incompatible with Debian/etc.
Jan 23 02:25:47 <cjb> Which isn't a problem if it's purely wiki documents, but if it's actual documentation (e.g. man pages) then it's useless.
Jan 23 02:26:35 <_llll_> makes sense to have the documentation and program under the same license really
Jan 23 02:26:59 <Psi_> tchuladdiass, so, do you think it will be at all possible to play 25fps divx video on the neo?
Jan 23 02:27:29 <noidd> that is currently under debate
Jan 23 02:27:35 <Psi_> yeah
Jan 23 02:28:00 <Psi_> i figured tchuladdiass opinion, is probably more accurate than mine :P
Jan 23 02:28:09 <cbpage> not at 640x480
Jan 23 02:28:12 <noidd> the presiding thoughts are that it wil be close
Jan 23 02:28:31 <tchuladdiass> I can barely play 640x480 videos on my zaurus, only when it is overclocked.
Jan 23 02:28:45 <tchuladdiass> But if you can run the screen in 320x240 mode, then it should be fine.
Jan 23 02:28:52 <noidd> that episode of 24 was weak
Jan 23 02:29:33 <tchuladdiass> With mplayer in 320x240 mode, I have to include options such as frameskip that keeps it in sync; the other limitation is the speed of your media device (i.e., the sd card speed).
Jan 23 02:29:38 <noidd> someone threw a box of screws on the freeway thise morning
Jan 23 02:29:54 <noidd> 20-30 cars with blown tires ine the space of an hour
Jan 23 02:30:23 <tchuladdiass> In that case, higher compression helps getting the video off the media faster.
Jan 23 02:30:54 <noidd> I think the issue is bandwidth to the FB
Jan 23 02:31:46 <tchuladdiass> I'd say that you should have some luck in getting video to play smoothly if it is encoded properly (assuming the FIC device can be set to 320x240 mode).  Some places to look is discussions on encoding vidoes for the ipod.
Jan 23 02:31:57 <aloril> wikipedia GFDL page claims this: "Debian developers eventually voted to consider works licensed under the GFDL to comply with their Debian Free Software Guidelines provided the invariant section clauses are not used"
Jan 23 02:32:22 <aloril> but reading further its considered anyway unfree, but OK hmm.. or something like that ;-)
Jan 23 02:32:23 <cjb> aloril: Thank you, I didn't know that.
Jan 23 02:32:27 <cjb> Ah.
Jan 23 02:32:57 <cjb> Yes; it's certainly not an acceptible free software license.  It sounds like they made a compromise so that they didn't have to reject all of those man pages.
Jan 23 02:33:20 <aloril> cjb: http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_001 (it seems A amended won vote)
Jan 23 02:33:41 <aloril> OK, so I see several problems:
Jan 23 02:33:54 <spikebik1> hrm
Jan 23 02:33:58 <aloril> moving between OM wiki <-> OM docs
Jan 23 02:34:07 <aloril> moving between OM wiki <-> wikipedia
Jan 23 02:34:09 <spikebik1> openmoko should be as fast at video playback as the nokia770?
Jan 23 02:34:38 <_llll_> moving between OM code/wiki <-> OM code?
Jan 23 02:34:54 <aloril> moving from OM wiki -> OM docs, wikipedia is resolved by using GFDL, GPL, BSD, etc.. licenses
Jan 23 02:35:12 <tchuladdiass> spikebikl: not sure, doesn't the nokia 770 have a video processor built in?  I thought it did.
Jan 23 02:35:19 <spikebik1> not sure
Jan 23 02:35:23 <_llll_> there's also dual- or triple-licensing everything
Jan 23 02:35:25 <spikebik1> I know the 800 has a dsp
Jan 23 02:35:48 <aloril> _llll_: yeah, that would allow moving from OM wiki to OM docs and also to wikipedia
Jan 23 02:36:05 <aloril> but it would prevent moving stuff from wikipedia
Jan 23 02:36:08 <_llll_> debian would also be happy (afaik) as long as one license meets their dfsg
Jan 23 02:38:17 <aloril> hmm.. result indeed was : "Option 2 GFDL-licensed works without unmodifiable sections are free"
Jan 23 02:38:43 <variant> aloril: there you go then..
Jan 23 02:38:58 <aloril> but I think better limit to wiki only and not bring docs into discussion ...
Jan 23 02:39:02 <aloril> no need ;-)
Jan 23 02:39:28 <aloril> docs are anyway usually licensed by software package, only case where there could be discussion is openmoko additions
Jan 23 02:39:49 <aloril> and .. I'd prefer to leave this out, only wiki needs to be resolved now
Jan 23 02:40:52 <variant> Is there anyone here who is actualy employed by FIC? I wanna ask for a free unit :P
Jan 23 02:41:02 <variant> or at least know who to suck up to
Jan 23 02:41:22 <aloril> variant: www.openmoko.com has email address
Jan 23 02:41:33 <variant> i mean, in irc
Jan 23 02:42:21 <aloril> will there be movement from OM wiki -> OM docs?
Jan 23 02:42:38 <aloril> (other than covered by fair quote rights)
Jan 23 02:43:15 <rwhitby> variant: did you get your dev application into coreteam@ last year?
Jan 23 02:45:07 <aloril> I doubt there is going to be any/much of wikipedia -> OM wiki
Jan 23 02:45:22 <aloril> (and fair quote is already covered by law)
Jan 23 02:47:15 <aloril> doubt moving from wiki -> OM docs is going to be problem, but moving whole unofficial wiki -> official one might be a bit problem
Jan 23 02:48:15 * aloril guesses OM libraries will use LGPL? (to be compatible with gtk+ license)
Jan 23 02:49:19 <aloril> what about this: for wiki only use GFDL without any invariant sections?
Jan 23 02:49:55 <aloril> (reason: discussion about what other licenses to include and what other licenses other OM parts will use is avoided this way ;-)
Jan 23 02:56:45 <aloril> IRC poll try 2: who is OK (or not OK) for using GFDL without invariants sections for wiki?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jan 23 02:59:59 2007