**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jan 25 02:59:57 2007 Jan 25 03:55:48 counter Jan 25 03:55:48 2 weeks, 2 days 17:33:22 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks, 0 day for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 03:56:23 cool Jan 25 03:56:47 counter Jan 25 03:56:47 2 weeks, 2 days 17:32:23 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks, for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 03:57:54 counter Jan 25 03:57:54 , 2 weeks, 2 days 17:31:16 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); , 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); , 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 03:58:13 counter Jan 25 03:58:13 2 weeks, 2 days 17:30:57 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 04:02:28 not so much anymore Jan 25 04:04:28 hehe Jan 25 04:04:40 ;) Jan 25 04:05:30 hmm http://planet.openmoko.org/ saays shipping is 2007-02-12, but I think source release is still 11 Jan 25 04:05:36 50 phones it seems Jan 25 04:06:09 yea 11 is a sunday Jan 25 04:17:51 openmoko.net is password protected? Jan 25 04:21:04 * aloril wonders what that site is Jan 25 04:21:37 it's not related to openmoko? Jan 25 04:23:07 * aloril would guess its related to openmoko, just wasn't included in announcement mail Jan 25 04:24:06 actually wt's the 2nd generation OpenMoko device Jan 25 04:24:37 a new phone in the next year? Jan 25 04:28:27 v1 device was announced 2006-11-07 it seems Jan 25 04:28:48 so.. its probably similar thing: announcement about what v2 will contain and some very selected developers getting one Jan 25 04:28:54 that means openmoko is dev in 1-year cycle? Jan 25 04:29:16 announcement seems to hint that, but we will see if that is actually case Jan 25 04:29:47 one would think that there might be less software work with 2nd gen device Jan 25 04:30:29 i see, what about FIC? is it a company in US? Jan 25 04:30:36 coz i dont see any FIC phones in Hong Kong Jan 25 04:31:24 I think FIC is based on Taiwan, big company Jan 25 04:31:28 they have a taiwan site, but no hong kong's =( Jan 25 04:31:40 (more stuff than just phones) Jan 25 04:32:08 founded in 1980..wow Jan 25 04:32:09 morning Jan 25 04:32:16 * aloril suspects v2 is 2x in price Jan 25 04:32:30 dont know why there isn't any FICphone in Hong Kong Jan 25 04:32:34 if it gets all things people are drooling for ;-) Jan 25 04:33:03 * aloril hasn't seen any FIC phone in Finland either, but maybe Neo1973 changes that Jan 25 04:33:15 umm.. it certainly changes it, because I'm going to get one ;-) Jan 25 04:33:16 haha i hope so Jan 25 04:33:46 funny order of last 2 lines ;-) Jan 25 04:33:51 it's so boring that everyone uses just a few latest models Jan 25 04:34:13 :) Jan 25 04:34:50 i may have the chance to get the phone when i enter the university Jan 25 04:35:01 dont hv much $$ now Jan 25 04:35:55 besides, any more pic on neo1973? i can just find the pic on the official site Jan 25 04:36:51 there's images of it in that youtube video Jan 25 04:37:43 not a fan of the look in that really, looks too much like a toy to me - hoping the ones sold to the public will look a bit better Jan 25 04:37:48 i cant load the youtube video of sean and the phone Jan 25 04:37:59 l3010o: seen this?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg Jan 25 04:38:23 there are still some connection problems in asia Jan 25 04:38:40 ah, ok, I think there was image of completely black version somewhere too Jan 25 04:38:48 i just cant load that youtube video =( Jan 25 04:39:01 can u send the clip to me pls? Jan 25 04:39:03 i'll take a screenie, give me a sec Jan 25 04:39:15 ok.. i'll convert it to xvid, give me a minute Jan 25 04:39:24 Agrajag: thank you :) Jan 25 04:39:45 i wish the phone would be a more professional one hahaa Jan 25 04:42:59 seeing that video makes me want to get openmoko even more Jan 25 04:48:26 http://whatsbeef.net/philip/openmoko.avi (15megs, xvid, sorry my transcoding skills aren't up to scratch today) Jan 25 04:48:51 * aloril just hopes he orders one enough fast at March or that there are enough available Jan 25 04:49:26 Agrajag: cool, downloading the video Jan 25 04:52:37 thx, watching it, the connection is kinda fast=) Jan 25 04:58:50 woooooow! the one in the video is nice Jan 25 04:59:09 i thk it's better than the pic on the site Jan 25 04:59:32 i think its a lil small but im not holding it sooo i don't know Jan 25 04:59:53 but it looks thick. cant see it clearly Jan 25 04:59:58 small? i drew the dimensions on a piece of paper and it looked huge compared to my currently phone Jan 25 05:00:09 s/currently/current Jan 25 05:00:28 it should be more or less the same size of iphone? Jan 25 05:00:37 yep mm-wise 50% bigger on every direction than latest lg/samsung creditcard phones Jan 25 05:01:14 i think the large screen and excellent resolution sort of make up for it Jan 25 05:01:23 it looks like a portable game machine :) Jan 25 05:01:46 waiting for the wifi one. tied into GSM providers is suckage.. Jan 25 05:02:07 d-link v-click is greenphone right? Jan 25 05:02:18 everwhere you go you have a wifi signal? Jan 25 05:08:24 can someone link me to a cell phone provider in Europe i would like to compare them to us monopoly's Jan 25 05:10:48 this lists all GSM providers around world: http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml Jan 25 05:11:27 what's the uses of wifi in phone? connecting to PCs? Jan 25 05:11:41 or the internet? Jan 25 05:13:10 both.. voip is a big one obviously Jan 25 05:13:54 im not sure how useful web browsers would be without a keyboard Jan 25 05:18:22 if neo1973 has wifi, it can use voip? Jan 25 05:18:34 thru a PC? Jan 25 05:19:18 Agrajag-: you can use bluetooth keyboard or maybe there will be some nice way to input using touch screen (not plain qwerty board) Jan 25 05:19:33 like maybe http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html Jan 25 05:20:21 if you're going to carry around a keyboard and browse the web you might as well have a laptop Jan 25 05:21:23 sizeof(bluetooth keyboard + Neo1973) < sizeof(laptop) Jan 25 05:21:38 sizeof(bluetooth keyboard) + sizeof(Neo1973) < sizeof(laptop) Jan 25 05:22:15 maybe a laser keyboard :) Jan 25 05:22:18 yes but you have a pissy little screen, i don't know about you, but i wouldn't want to be browsing websites on it Jan 25 05:22:22 the same, 'sizeof' replaced with 'weight' :) Jan 25 05:25:49 Agrajag-: one idea: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002101.html Jan 25 05:26:07 but probably not feasible in v1 hardware :-( Jan 25 05:28:35 sounds pretty silly to me Jan 25 05:30:45 Agrajag-: why? Jan 25 05:34:05 because when you think about the size of the screen and the stuff you're going to be looking at, most of those ideas just don't seem feasible to me when you take into account what you're going to entering text for and what you're trying to look at/read at the same time Jan 25 05:35:40 I think even 1/3 of screen visible might be enough for current context Jan 25 05:36:22 also screen under fingers could be visible (maybe some transparent hints) Jan 25 05:36:43 anyway: hard to say what is possible without experimenting Jan 25 05:37:16 Agrajag-: also you might look at http://www.tengo.net/ too Jan 25 06:10:18 when is this device coming out? Jan 25 06:10:59 counter Jan 25 06:11:00 2 weeks, 2 days 15:18:10 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 06:13:19 aloril: What time are you up in the mornigs? At the comp 5?? Jan 25 06:13:39 CM: 5am - 6am Jan 25 06:13:58 I've been getting up at 5 all week to go to work, but it's killing me.. Jan 25 06:14:08 5am sucks Jan 25 06:14:45 I think I sleep roughly 6-8h/night Jan 25 06:15:03 5-6 here, but I know I need more Jan 25 06:15:05 * aloril just naturally awakes at 5am-6am Jan 25 06:15:23 * CM naturally awakes around noon Jan 25 06:15:37 CM: ouch for 5am then Jan 25 06:15:58 On saturdays I usually wake up around 11-12 Jan 25 06:17:55 when is this device coming out? Jan 25 06:18:08 or is it already available? Jan 25 06:18:08 counter Jan 25 06:18:08 2 weeks, 2 days 15:11:02 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 06:18:54 oh, sorry Jan 25 06:18:55 lol Jan 25 06:18:57 duh Jan 25 06:19:08 hmm, I'll check back Jan 25 06:19:09 thanks Jan 25 07:45:53 will openmoko come with a web browser and media support? Jan 25 07:46:27 even if it doesn't, nothing prevents you from installing those on it. Jan 25 07:47:55 loufoque: will there be a way to ssh into it? Jan 25 07:48:33 maxamillion: using ssh :-) Jan 25 07:49:23 XorA: interface to connect to ... address that would be the destination .... ssh usr@phoneURL Jan 25 07:49:35 ? Jan 25 07:49:47 i assumed it ran an ssh server Jan 25 07:50:04 given that it doesn't have wifi nor ethernet ports, it probably won't support "real" ssh. Jan 25 07:50:31 and i don't assume it to have a package manager? Jan 25 07:50:58 it uses dpkg-i Jan 25 07:51:14 ipkg sorry Jan 25 07:51:20 you had me excited Jan 25 07:51:22 well, dpkg for embedded systems Jan 25 07:51:30 w00t Jan 25 07:51:34 i <3 debian .. Jan 25 07:51:56 * maxamillion appoligizes for his moment of fanboy-ness Jan 25 07:53:09 loufoque: whats wrong with usb-ethernet and bluetooth, tcp/ip isnt limited to just ethernet Jan 25 07:57:29 XorA: would depend if there was software to support it i would assume Jan 25 07:58:11 sure, but wouldn't that restrict the usage of the usb port? I would have assumed the usb port to behave like a mass storage device. Jan 25 08:02:02 loufoque: the advantage of linux is you can change your mind Jan 25 08:11:18 loufoque: you can run net over USB and/or bluetooth Jan 25 08:11:54 loufoque: it can act as unpowered usb host too Jan 25 08:25:04 hi Jan 25 08:25:34 Anyone know what the licence is for the OpenMoko SDK? LGPL, or something else? Jan 25 08:30:00 dneary: cominations of LGPL/GPL/BSD Jan 25 08:30:35 since it's based on GTK+ it's probably mostly LGPL Jan 25 08:33:23 is it possible use this adapter? Jan 25 08:33:24 http://www.ramelectronics.net/HTML/usb_ethernet_adapter.html Jan 25 08:33:50 or it needs powered usb? Jan 25 08:34:17 btw, about counter. 02-11 starts at different time in different timezones Jan 25 08:34:24 XorA: Thanks Jan 25 08:35:06 Have you investigated any issues with LGPL aggregation with closed components of the phone (like the GSM stack)? Jan 25 08:35:17 dottedmag: i assume it's counting at GMT time ? Jan 25 08:35:54 The question's come up for Wengo - we have a GPL softphone which we're investigating porting to GSM - we have already made proof-of-concept wifi/gsm convergence devices Jan 25 08:35:58 there are no aggregation issues with the gsm stack; it's behind an UART, for most software intents and purposes a separate "modem" Jan 25 08:36:03 probably. but whether devs count it at UTC too? :) Jan 25 08:36:41 dneary: GSM is hidden behind a serial port Jan 25 08:37:48 the AGPS daemon, again, is apparently a separate userland process (presumably linked to glibc and stuff but that's okay by their license) Jan 25 08:38:06 OK Jan 25 08:38:32 That concords with what we've been thinking - hiding things behind sockets, serial portas Jan 25 08:38:58 ports (gah, fat fingers this morning) and dbus resolves aggregation issues Jan 25 08:42:15 wouldn't it be better to have an open source GSM stack? Jan 25 08:42:30 counter Jan 25 08:42:31 2 weeks, 2 days 12:46:38 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 08:50:46 dottedmag: true, I could change timezone, but then release dates are approximates anyway ;-) Jan 25 08:51:07 I guess I could change to GMT from EET though Jan 25 08:51:31 mikesh: yeah, you need (battery) powered usb hub Jan 25 08:51:40 eet ? where are you from ? :) Jan 25 08:52:30 Finland Jan 25 08:58:43 a silly question, why there is no admin in this channel? Jan 25 08:58:56 It's a freenode thing. Jan 25 08:59:02 hm.. i see what you all mean about the community discussion, its become too much to read Jan 25 08:59:50 so there are working developers of openmoko here now? Jan 25 09:00:14 at least intermittently Jan 25 09:00:33 I don't recall if somebody is on-line right now Jan 25 09:01:51 they are "normal" users here? Jan 25 09:02:01 0 halfops, 0 voices.. Jan 25 09:02:04 loufoque, an open source GSM stack would be a good thing to have, _but_ difficult regulation-wise. You might be able to make it work by tivoization, which would somewhat defeat the purpose. Jan 25 09:02:13 counter Jan 25 09:02:13 2 weeks, 2 days 14:26:56 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 09:02:25 should be UTC now Jan 25 09:03:12 l3010o, yes; it's customary in many freenode channels to not have op powers but for authorized people to merely ask them from chanserv if necessary, btw Jan 25 09:03:48 mjr: what regulations? Jan 25 09:04:06 mjr: so who are managing this channel? e.g the topic Jan 25 09:04:16 everyone, its -t Jan 25 09:05:15 * aloril has seen mickeyl changing topic Jan 25 09:05:27 loufoque, any regulations any different countries may have worldwide on how cell-phone network nodes need to be certified Jan 25 09:06:08 Topic set by mickeyl [] [Tue Jan 23 00:01:14 2007] Jan 25 09:06:17 mjr: well, at least here in Russia you just need to use allowed radio frequencies, no other regulations involved. Jan 25 09:06:48 Wow, what a channel population. That's a good sign :-) Jan 25 09:09:37 personally i thk the color scheme is a bit weird, grey + orange Jan 25 09:10:06 but why in the video the phone is white + blue but not silver+black? Jan 25 09:10:17 It's bound to be skinned. The reviewers should never be given a chance to complain about colour scheme. Jan 25 09:10:41 And if it's not currently skinned ... let's make it so. Jan 25 09:11:19 i wont buy a white phone Jan 25 09:11:19 i just wont Jan 25 09:11:32 best to give me a totally black one Jan 25 09:11:42 like that engineering dummy on some pics Jan 25 09:11:43 Morgret: do you mean that is not the finalised skin? Jan 25 09:11:51 mjr: a government that would prevent usage of free software in that case would be silly Jan 25 09:12:18 l3010o: "finalized" won't be until September I thought, when mom and dad will be introduced to them. Jan 25 09:12:52 Morgret: not even the shape, color of phone? Jan 25 09:13:28 haha. As phone is intended to be fully open, it would be nice to sell non-coloured phone and different inks to dye it :) Jan 25 09:13:44 Form factor will probably always be the same, but new plastic shells are 2-a-penny. Even third parties could make them, not necessarily FIC Jan 25 09:14:08 dottedmag: hehe Jan 25 09:14:20 it would be cool if the phone is skinnable :) Jan 25 09:14:34 loufoque, there are valid reasons to be careful with public spectrum, such as the possibility of people sabotaging reserved cell phone frequencies intentionally or by mistake, however I personally do tend to agree that free software should be allowed on gsm stacks and the like Jan 25 09:15:06 l3010o: I was talking about the software. But yes, the plastic shell should come with options, or you might lose customers just because of physical colour. Jan 25 09:15:40 mjr: its got little to do with the government and more to do with the GSM organisation that doesnt allow you to distribute the GSM crypto algorithms in public Jan 25 09:15:41 Morgret: so both hardware and software is skinable, hehee Jan 25 09:16:14 how about a wide-band radio transciever with GSM in software. you know, so we can use all that spectrum the FCC has been stealing from us for the past 100 years Jan 25 09:16:22 XorA, yeah, like DVDCA doesn't want decss in public ;] Jan 25 09:16:30 mjr: yup Jan 25 09:18:31 Anyone here intending to work on GPS apps for it? We could start by porting GPSdrive, should be easy enough. Jan 25 09:18:53 gpsdrive sucks Jan 25 09:19:04 try updating the no-hildon port of maemo-mapper Jan 25 09:19:08 koen|gprs: got a better one? Jan 25 09:21:11 do we need to pay for using GPS? Jan 25 09:21:19 Nope, it's just a receiver Jan 25 09:22:34 i would like to help, but i know nearly nth abt it :( Jan 25 09:24:19 But we'll need public domain maps to go with any GPS application we make. Maybe FIC could buy a proper mapset for the phone, since they've designed in GPS. Jan 25 09:24:59 in Hong Kong, all the maps are copyrighted Jan 25 09:25:19 And everywhere else, except those of NASA and some other place :P Jan 25 09:25:36 Maps of Mars are free :PPPPP Jan 25 09:25:38 in a lot of countries proper maps are still classified as "military inteligence" Jan 25 09:25:42 there is no open source map? Jan 25 09:26:04 l3010o: Basically, noo. Jan 25 09:26:10 -o Jan 25 09:26:24 http://www.openstreetmap.org/ Jan 25 09:27:08 aloril: A good idea, and a promising project, but it seems to be in the beginning stages... Jan 25 09:27:50 Odin-LAP: maybe Neo1973 phone widely used could change that quickly Jan 25 09:27:58 So let's add to it. #1 job becomes to port their tracker to the Neo Jan 25 09:28:13 openstreetmap is very well covered in some places Jan 25 09:28:30 there are entire towns that have been mapped iirc Jan 25 09:28:40 but in some places *only* Jan 25 09:28:40 aloril: Yes, but for the feature to be widely used it needs to be at a fairly good level. Not saying it isn't useful, mind! Jan 25 09:29:18 Odin-LAP: there are 6 months between developer and mass market release ;-) Jan 25 09:29:59 aloril: A fair point. Jan 25 09:30:00 Odin-LAP: however, if open version is not done in time, there might be extra commercial option at mass market release Jan 25 09:30:14 (based on ML talk) Jan 25 09:34:20 Are RSS/Atom readers in the basic SDK developed? Jan 25 09:34:25 * dottedmag thinks about porting Liferea Jan 25 09:35:03 lifearea's buildsystem is broken Jan 25 09:35:03 s/SDK/OS/ Jan 25 09:35:03 dottedmag meant: Are RSS/Atom readers in the basic OS developed? Jan 25 09:35:33 especially when you disable the gecko plugin Jan 25 09:35:49 koen|gprs: well, Nokia people fixed it somehow. But they did not contribute fixes back to upstream :( Jan 25 09:36:02 nokia doesn't crosscompile Jan 25 09:36:24 and the maemo rss reader is crap Jan 25 09:36:36 koen|gprs: I know, it's a liferea 0.6 heavily patched Jan 25 09:36:59 koen|gprs: And I don't like the patches they did :) Jan 25 09:37:15 * koen|gprs heads into town Jan 25 09:37:16 later all Jan 25 09:37:18 So make better ones :P Jan 25 09:37:32 dottedmag: nothing stopping you checking out openembedded and giving us a patch for liferea Jan 25 09:37:34 Morgret: will do if no other RSS reader is planned Jan 25 09:37:37 dottedmag: Id like it Jan 25 09:37:37 XorA: yep Jan 25 09:39:02 Does anyone have a spec on the resolution of the touch-sensitive overlay on the screen (which is probably not the same as the screen res)? And is someone working on Graphitti or similar? Jan 25 09:39:28 Morgret: no, and there is handwriting recognition in OE Jan 25 09:40:22 XorA: oh, I didn't know that, excellent. The input res on Neo might be only enough for buttons though, not writing ... we need to know. Jan 25 09:42:05 Morgret: Id say physical size of the screen is the limiter, not the res of the overlay Jan 25 09:43:24 For handwriting, it's the touch-sensitive overlay res that matters. If the screen were A4 size but only had 1-inch input dot pitch, you couldn't write text :P Jan 25 09:43:55 Morgret: but dont forget neo screen is tiny, you run out of horizontal travel very quickly Jan 25 09:44:05 Morgret: Ive found this on other small PDA's Jan 25 09:45:01 Hey, the touch sensitive part of a Palm is just one square inch, and it works fine! Jan 25 09:51:48 yea, i thk that wont be a problem for the input Jan 25 10:27:02 will neo1973 have the sensor for horizontal and vertical? Jan 25 10:27:14 l3010o: no Jan 25 10:32:43 is it possible to buy that phone now? Jan 25 10:33:04 no Jan 25 10:33:16 on March 11th on current schedule Jan 25 10:33:27 I know, but I mean some version for developers or so Jan 25 10:33:32 XorA, which handwriting recog are you talking about ? xstroke ? or figment ? Jan 25 10:33:35 or Feb 11th if you can qualify for a free developer model Jan 25 10:33:45 rob_w: xstroke for sure Jan 25 10:33:56 counter Jan 25 10:33:56 2 weeks, 2 days 12:55:12 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 10:34:15 okie Jan 25 10:34:45 mhh zi ports ezitext to qtopia Jan 25 10:34:50 that looks decent enough Jan 25 10:35:12 if it's anything like the stuff in xp tablet edition it's actually quite useable Jan 25 10:35:23 XorA, that is gesture .. anyway Jan 25 10:38:05 are there discussions about the next generation of smartphones that will run openmoko ? Jan 25 10:38:18 I would like to see wi-fi and umts if possible Jan 25 10:40:58 loufoque: and both probably will happen, I think especially wifi is quite likely Jan 25 10:49:05 python bindings are being worked upon: http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/01/fancy_an_open_i_1.html Jan 25 10:50:09 (of course python bindings for lots of stuff in there already exists) Jan 25 10:50:43 am i the only one who thinks its kinda weird to run linux vserver on a PHONE? Jan 25 10:52:32 if you loan phone, then you would like to have one? (or also for thief protection) Jan 25 10:54:46 rob_w: do you have a figure for input overlay resolution on the Neo? Jan 25 10:55:07 no Jan 25 10:57:09 Morgret, what do you mean ? Jan 25 10:57:17 Morgret: give someone a chance to actually get the phone Jan 25 10:57:59 *yawn* Jan 25 10:58:00 morning Jan 25 10:58:48 hi mickeyl Jan 25 10:59:30 hi mickeyl, LaF0rge Jan 25 11:00:08 hi florian Jan 25 11:00:22 Good, uh, morning Mickey ;-) Jan 25 11:00:23 * stefan_schmidt needs to stop hi'ing everybody. Work todo Jan 25 11:00:24 hi all Jan 25 11:01:15 hehe, iPhone again 'selling' Neo1973: author thinks Japanese might be more impressed with Neo1973: http://www.onecompare.com/mobile-news/article-asp~aid~227~pub~83010205~story~japan-unimpressed-over-the-iphone-mobile-phone-%E2%80%98revolution%E2%80%99 Jan 25 11:01:39 XorA: why? People don't need to receive phone before they can work on apps. We simply need to be told the spec. Jan 25 11:02:25 morning TRIsoft Jan 25 11:02:52 Aha, people in the know, 'morning. :P Could we be told the res of the touch-sensitive overlay, in order to plan what apps we might be undertaking? Jan 25 11:03:45 Morgret: because without the phone we dont know the specs :-) Jan 25 11:04:19 XorA: that's silly. Specs comec on paper, not by measuring the physical unit you receive. Jan 25 11:04:22 hmm i would be surprised if the resolution of the ts doesn't match the resolution of the panel. but then again, i'm not a hardware guy Jan 25 11:06:54 mickeyl: it should be ts_print of top left, minus ts_print of bottem right Jan 25 11:07:08 mickeyl: or other way round depending which way TS is wired Jan 25 11:09:05 aloril: how could the japanese be interested in the neo 1973 since it doesn't support 3G/UMTS ? Jan 25 11:09:59 The first one isn't very interesting with 3g as you have no video. Jan 25 11:10:17 loufoque: I think it should said "interested on OpenMoko" ;-) Jan 25 11:10:18 there isn't enough CPU power to do it AIUI. Jan 25 11:10:20 Also. Jan 25 11:10:38 loufoque: actually, it didn't say interested, it said impressed Jan 25 11:12:12 interesting that japan also is listed here: http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml (3G only though) Jan 25 11:12:47 http://www.iphonematters.com/article/why_wont_you_be_getting_an_iphone/ is missing most important reason ;-) Jan 25 11:13:50 Found info on ts res in S3C2410 spec: Jan 25 11:13:58 The 10-bit CMOS analog to digital converter (ADC) of the S3C2410A is a recycling typed device with 8-channel Jan 25 11:13:58 analog inputs. It converts the analog input signal into 10-bit binary digital codes at a maximum conversion rate of Jan 25 11:13:58 500KSPS with 2.5 MHz A/D converter clock. Jan 25 11:14:41 So the micro has good res for this. Now we just need to know about the panel. Jan 25 11:22:55 That's a very fast conversion rate, so handwriting recognition should be pretty good as long as nobody writes their apps with busy-waiting loops. Jan 25 11:29:36 "The S3C2410A supports hardware horizontal or vertical scrolling. The video buffer in which the image is stored should be larger than the LCD panel screen in size." Nice Jan 25 11:42:24 Are there only two buttons and the touchscreen then? Jan 25 11:44:05 yes Jan 25 11:45:28 Thanks Jan 25 11:46:24 incidentally, I asked on the list but got no response, but does anyone here know if the XVideo extension present on the Moko X server mean that the video hardware is capable of scaling (or maybe even colorspace conversion)? Jan 25 11:46:47 or is the extension just pretty much of a dummy? Jan 25 11:47:45 s/of // Jan 25 11:47:46 mjr meant: or is the extension just pretty much a dummy? Jan 25 11:52:28 i think someone said the soc doesn't support scaling Jan 25 11:53:26 rofl Jan 25 11:53:33 whining about gnu/linux but using gmail Jan 25 11:53:37 talk about hypocritical Jan 25 11:53:51 But it does support H/V scrolling into a larger video buffer. Jan 25 11:54:45 * so_solid_moo thinks most people who whine about gnu don't understand the reasons the gnu project asks for credit Jan 25 11:55:11 most of the good reasons pro-gnu+linux don't really apply to phone OSes. Jan 25 11:56:33 in some ways, you could go whining about including cpu architecture into linux name as without microcode you wont run linux Jan 25 12:01:18 You could - with open microcode. Jan 25 12:02:19 buz, not really applicable, as GNU/Linux OSes can generally run on several, and if a more spesific moniker is needed, it _is_ generally used (ie. "Download the x86 version here" etc.) Jan 25 12:02:55 I think Linux or GNU/Linux has nothing much to do with contribution of dependence. Jan 25 12:03:10 Linux never stood for the free software philosophie. Jan 25 12:03:28 but if you're just talking eg. about Debian GNU/Linux, which arcitecture would you say in the name? None, since it doesn't necessarily depend on any one. Jan 25 12:03:32 contribution or* Jan 25 12:03:47 OpenMoko will run on many different types of hardware. It's being designed to be not just open but generic. For a start, it'll apply to all the OpenEZX phones too. Jan 25 12:04:12 so_solid_moo, ok (on the scaling); I didn't really expect it to support scaling, just hoping since I saw the Xvideo mention Jan 25 12:04:45 Morgret: oh, wonderful, so there's ongoing work to run it on A1200, for example? Jan 25 12:04:56 Morgret: or is that just plans? Jan 25 12:05:16 danilos: I don't know specifically. But the two projects share at least one primary developer. Jan 25 12:08:41 mjr: from looking at it, it doesn't even do colour space conversion in hardware Jan 25 12:08:53 so_solid_moo, yeah well, I expected that it would be even less likely than scaling :) Jan 25 12:09:02 heh Jan 25 12:09:15 will just have to see how good video I can make it play back just using the CPU... Jan 25 12:09:27 I guess if the codec's not too extreme it might do ok Jan 25 12:09:33 (I'm not expecting miracles, but will have to try) Jan 25 12:09:39 indeed Jan 25 12:09:48 yeah, I was thinking like low-bitrate mpeg-1 etc Jan 25 12:09:56 I would think that would work ok tbh Jan 25 12:11:47 Morgret: ah, I hoped you had some inside infos :) Jan 25 12:12:17 Good Morning! Jan 25 12:12:26 Has any more A1200 info been released? Jan 25 12:17:27 Bah, 30 mins before I have to head to work. Jan 25 12:17:28 counter Jan 25 12:17:29 Morgret: The projects share two atm and 4-5 after 11.02 :) Jan 25 12:17:29 2 weeks, 2 days 11:11:38 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 12:19:12 SpeedEvil: What A1200 infos you are searching for? Jan 25 12:20:01 I saw the initial 'this is the linux kernel tarball, aren't we good' posts - I haven't seen any info on how to get your own apps on the phone actually interacting with the user. Jan 25 12:20:06 Are there now any? Jan 25 12:22:18 SpeedEvil: You mean from Motorola? Jan 25 12:22:30 SpeedEvil: They only allow you java, as always. Jan 25 12:23:07 Yes. Oh well. Jan 25 12:23:42 * SpeedEvil carries on waiting for the neo release. Jan 25 12:32:37 counter Jan 25 12:32:37 2 weeks, 2 days 10:56:30 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 12:42:46 stefan_schmidt: well, can you put your own firmware image on the A1200? Jan 25 12:46:18 yacc: No, not yet Jan 25 12:46:51 yacc: But you can boot rootfs fom microSD card Jan 25 12:47:02 stefan_schmidt: So it's not really open. It's about as open as any random device that happens to have a linux kernel. Jan 25 12:48:33 yacc: Right, at the moment it's a piece of junk on sweet hardware. :) Jan 25 12:49:07 stefan_schmidt: not better then HTC winmobiles, which happen to run Linux too. Jan 25 12:50:33 yacc: Right. There are plans to change this. But expect nothing useful for users before end of 07. No time for more talk right now.Work, sorry. Jan 25 12:56:50 heaidng to work - back in 45m or so Jan 25 13:00:34 ³ Jan 25 13:00:37 ups ^^ Jan 25 13:07:49 danilos: no, I don't have any internal info, just talking to some of the early external developers. Jan 25 13:09:12 The guy I just spoke to doesn't have any details of TS input, but reckons that we won't see the 10-bit ADC output -- instead, the TS overlay is probably directly mapped to an X11 pointer, so we'll get it in X11 screen coordinates. Jan 25 13:15:32 If we need faster response for handwriting recognition, the ADC output from TS is probably available just by openning the device raw I imagine. Since it's a readonly source, that should be possible even if X11 already has it open. Jan 25 13:17:12 are you guys using the buildroot toolchain? Jan 25 13:17:15 should be, if the driver supports multi-open, and hey, if it doesn't, fix it Jan 25 13:22:53 How do TSs work anyway? Jan 25 13:23:25 They have transparent conductive films on the close surfaces. Jan 25 13:23:37 These touch when you touch the screen with something. Jan 25 13:24:10 Then, by measuring the resistances between the sides of the under and top layers, on various sides, you can determine where the touch is. Jan 25 13:24:42 Ahh. So it's not really super-accurate? Jan 25 13:24:51 It's not bad. Jan 25 13:25:08 But expecting a full 480*640 pixels may be a bit much. Jan 25 13:25:28 Of course, out of the question for fingers. Jan 25 13:25:48 yeah, fingers aren't really the state of the art in precision pointing :) Jan 25 13:25:49 Right. But I'd probably use a stylus anyway... Jan 25 13:26:05 so multitouch won't be possible? Jan 25 13:26:11 Don't forget the screen protectors... Jan 25 13:26:25 Well. With this sort of touchscreen, you can sort of fake it. Jan 25 13:26:41 As you can - with a couple more electrodes get a bounding touch area Jan 25 13:26:43 LittleIdiot - I heard, that the hw in the neo supports multiple touch, but the driver needs haevy hacking for that to work. Jan 25 13:27:17 But without going to other technologies, you can't get 'true' multi-touch. Jan 25 13:27:18 with only one adc value it won't i suppose Jan 25 13:28:13 that would be like having two resistors in parallel and then telling their values from just measuring the entrire circuit - not possible Jan 25 13:28:14 For example, you can shoot sound waves across the display, and do signal processing on the results, to see where it sounds 'dead'. Jan 25 13:28:21 Does anyone know, how accurate the gps+antenna will be? worse than 10m RMS? Jan 25 13:28:32 Probably not. Jan 25 13:28:41 More likely 4-5M RMS or so. Jan 25 13:29:27 Hmm. That's too good to be true for the size. (a sirfIII with a 3cm x 3cm x 1cm antenna has <10m. Jan 25 13:29:43 Antenna is pretty irrelevant. Jan 25 13:29:59 It's more in the signal processing and locking than the actual antenna. Jan 25 13:30:28 Position degrades little until you lose lock. Jan 25 13:30:45 hmm, well - multitouch could work! given one finger is always first. when the second finger touches the display it creates a sudden voltage drop (signifficant higher value at the adc port) so it can be done! ;) Jan 25 13:30:59 AFAIK the antenna is big part of the issue. Jan 25 13:31:20 we know the value & position of the first finger, so we can measure the second one Jan 25 13:31:31 LittleIdiot - Yep. Jan 25 13:32:20 how big do you think the antenna should be? Jan 25 13:32:52 I think, the helix antennas are 1cm sphere like. Jan 25 13:33:03 As big as you can make it - but it's more a 'works at all' issue, rather than position accuracy. Jan 25 13:33:26 as big as you can make it is not true Jan 25 13:33:43 remember you are looking for a specific frequency Jan 25 13:34:26 Well, yes, up to a half wave at 1.2Ghz Jan 25 13:34:48 Or larger if you want to do directional to the GPS satellites for antijamming purposes. Jan 25 13:35:24 http://trimble.com/l1l2chokering.shtml Jan 25 13:35:34 That's an antenna ;o) Jan 25 13:36:36 i think thats a little extreme for a phone Jan 25 13:37:16 Well, I'm really looking for "free my gps". ;) Jan 25 13:37:29 half length for 1.2 ghz would be 4.68 in Jan 25 13:37:49 got to love those ham radio people Jan 25 13:39:33 to bad the phone won't have a detachable ground point Jan 25 13:40:17 "ground point"? Jan 25 13:40:50 yes a reference that you could plug in for that extra boost in signal Jan 25 13:41:02 Elrond: the accuracy is usually fine. It's dependent on the linearity of resistance in the overlay film, as well as the quality of the ADC network. The SoC ts-handling itself uses a 10-bit ADC, so that's around 4 times the res of the screen, ie. very good. Jan 25 13:42:02 We don't know how good the ts linearity is, since we don't know what display module is being used. Jan 25 13:42:02 Morgret - Ahh. 4 times? 10 bit = 1024... One direction has 640. Sounds more like 2 times. Jan 25 13:42:27 2 x 2 = 4 :P See, I'm quite a wiz at maths :P Jan 25 13:42:51 Oh, you mean for "number of pixels". Jan 25 13:42:59 Yeah Jan 25 13:43:33 Morgret - Ahh, you mean an antenna connector port. :) Jan 25 13:44:16 s/Morgret/Mortimus/ Jan 25 13:44:17 Elrond meant: Mortimus - Ahh, you mean an antenna connector port. :) Jan 25 13:44:19 wait on a 640x480 screen you have 311040 unique pixels Jan 25 13:44:54 yea my bad for not being clear Jan 25 13:45:28 No problem. Jan 25 13:46:14 and with 10 bits that is 1024 unique resistance values Jan 25 13:46:15 6m RMS would be good, really. I'm currently pissed by the commercial GPS outdoor handhelds. :-( Jan 25 13:46:48 im lost with the touch screen accuracy Jan 25 13:47:07 On the GPS side, we'll have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/ for maps one day, plus there's non-street maps like NASA of course, but it's pretty sparse atm. Ideally someone like FIC ought to make an arrangement with some map maker, seeing as they put GPS into the gadget. Jan 25 13:47:08 Morgret - 10 bits per direction. :) Jan 25 13:47:16 Elrond: yep Jan 25 13:47:42 ahh ok got it now Jan 25 13:47:44 Morgret - 10 bits per direction. :) Jan 25 13:47:50 *grrr* Jan 25 13:48:10 Mortimus - 10 bits per direction. :) Jan 25 13:48:13 So, that's the right one. Jan 25 13:48:30 Elrond: yep. So since that's approx twice screen res per direction, it has about points available per screen pixel. Xo x 4 Jan 25 13:48:33 Morgret - I work for openstreetmap. :) Jan 25 13:48:51 ElrondL cool! Nice project Jan 25 13:49:09 And I want GPS to do the mapping. :) Jan 25 13:49:32 Indeed, this will be a nice gadget for that :P Jan 25 13:50:08 I should ask, if I get a discount, as openstreetmap probably will provide the maps. ;) Jan 25 13:50:09 GPS: http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/gps-average.gif - probability circles are for 10s averaging, red dots are 10s, green 100s, magenta 1 hour Jan 25 13:50:24 this is a garmin GPS12, the one in the phone may be a little better. Jan 25 13:50:30 It gives an iea though. Jan 25 13:50:32 idea Jan 25 13:50:41 plot of positions averaged over time. Jan 25 13:50:50 from a stationary reference point. Jan 25 13:52:04 I'm surprised that's still up, I stopped paying the bill 3 years ago. Jan 25 13:52:53 SpeedEvil: Yeah, that's roughly what I get on my Holux GPSlim236. But vertical res is totally attrocious: it places my altitude as varying +/- 200m every few mins Jan 25 13:53:40 yuck. Jan 25 13:54:06 So I wouldn't want to fly a plane by it :P Jan 25 13:55:04 use IFR :-) Jan 25 13:55:13 ILR even Jan 25 13:55:54 Igneous Luminal Runifications? Jan 25 13:59:16 counter Jan 25 13:59:17 2 weeks, 2 days 09:29:50 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 14:00:30 1.5 months and $350. ;) Jan 25 14:01:03 I can't wait here for 6 weeks, I'll go nuts. :P Somebody start an alternative project for it in OE :P Jan 25 14:04:31 OE? Jan 25 14:05:47 open embedded i think Jan 25 14:06:40 Yeah Jan 25 14:07:43 Isn't the neo in openembedded anyway? Jan 25 14:09:31 Yep, but it won't be an open project until mid-March I thouht Jan 25 14:09:48 Source and Respositories open in 16 days Jan 25 14:10:01 Cool! Jan 25 14:10:19 Ah that's better. Just no public commits until mid-March then, but we can work in parallel Jan 25 14:10:21 Along with bugzilla, wiki and first batch of sample phones. Jan 25 14:10:39 Commits are allowed from Feb 11th Jan 25 14:11:08 Counter message not right then Jan 25 14:11:10 In fact, you can start developing now if you want Jan 25 14:11:15 just pull OpenEmbedded Jan 25 14:11:49 i wish i knew more programming Jan 25 14:12:05 just finished pointers Jan 25 14:12:06 Have it for my Slug, could do with updating though Jan 25 14:12:12 The only difference between a regular Gtk application and an OpenMoko themed application I'm guessing will be the addition of the OpenMoko specific widgets Jan 25 14:12:42 I would bet that they inherit directly from the native widgets (mickeyl specifically said he wanted to avoid patching upstream Gtk) Jan 25 14:12:53 Good Jan 25 14:13:00 so, what I am doing is writing with native widgets Jan 25 14:13:42 and when the time comes, replacing the "Gtk2::Window" widget with an "Gtk2::OpenMokoWindow" (or whatever) widget I'm guessing will just work Jan 25 14:13:58 Gtk's got themes, so that'll avoid the complaints about UI colours etc, which we're already hearing hehe Jan 25 14:14:08 the reason we did not use maemo was because of the amount of patched libs that had to be used. We're trying to remain more clean Jan 25 14:14:39 The Gtk tk actually has a nice inherited model so you can add your own widgets to the toolkit without having to patch upstream Jan 25 14:14:41 noidd - Cool. Jan 25 14:14:44 so it's a cleaner choice imho :-) Jan 25 14:14:56 Sounds good Jan 25 14:14:58 Gtk themes are nasty Jan 25 14:15:16 For example, they don't support widget layers Jan 25 14:15:20 Just curious: Why gtk and not qt? Jan 25 14:15:34 (I like gtk! I'm just curious for the reasons) Jan 25 14:15:46 I prefer Gtk too so I'm biased. Jan 25 14:15:59 I think it had to do with licencing - I could be wrong. Jan 25 14:16:26 I know that mickeyl has a preference for Qt over Gtk too - so it must have been a substantial reason for him to move us in that direction. Jan 25 14:16:32 Remember that Qt is not free for commercial use. It's a fine line whether a commercial phone using Free-Qt is commercial use or not Jan 25 14:17:16 free-qt still isn't 100% free? Jan 25 14:17:18 So my guess it, they just want to avoid any issues. Jan 25 14:17:29 your marketing the hardware Jan 25 14:18:30 open hardware... :) Jan 25 14:18:31 Free-Qt is totally free for non-commercial use. Just not for commercial use, needs licensing -- that's how Trolltech make some money. Jan 25 14:19:23 But since FIC couldn't sell the phone without running software (Mum and Dad wouldn't buy it), there's clearly an issue with bolshy lawyers. Jan 25 14:19:33 Morgret - Huh. I wonder, how it got through the Debian DFSG then... But I don't want to look for real now. Jan 25 14:19:51 Morgret: sources? Jan 25 14:20:14 xorAxAx: Trolltech licensing pages, I just read them 2-3 days ago Jan 25 14:20:33 i remember reading them when i used kde Jan 25 14:20:56 But after buying the hw, I can install kde on it, right? ;o) Jan 25 14:20:58 qt4-gpl is free for commerical use Jan 25 14:21:04 qtopia phone is not Jan 25 14:21:18 Ahh, there's a -gpl version. :-) Jan 25 14:21:19 But remember that there is nothing stopping anyone who isn't FIC putting Qt on the phone! :P Jan 25 14:21:46 it would not even stop fic Jan 25 14:22:03 it would however stop people from releasing closed source stuff for openmoko without getting a qt license Jan 25 14:22:23 I don't want to get into the discussion. I know lawyers, and they suck. So, I think OpenMoko is doing the safe thing. :-) Jan 25 14:22:37 Yep. Jan 25 14:23:03 besides it will likely be days if not hours until qt runs on openmoko Jan 25 14:23:12 Hehe, indeed Jan 25 14:23:21 kde on your phone, lol Jan 25 14:24:56 Bah, desktops. All we need running is init, shell, and vi ;-))))) Jan 25 14:25:20 i LOATHE vi Jan 25 14:25:37 That's OK, I'm sure it loathes you too :P Jan 25 14:25:40 vi grew on me Jan 25 14:25:54 its debatable whether that was malignant growth or not Jan 25 14:25:54 but maybe thats because i never took the time to memorize the manual Jan 25 14:26:02 yea vi grows on you....kinda like a fungus Jan 25 14:26:08 i like nano Jan 25 14:26:34 vi does grow on you Jan 25 14:26:48 I used nano for ages but then I started to realize that I liked having fast access to regexps, :split, and the bar at the bottom of nano chews up too much space on a phone Jan 25 14:26:48 Real programmers edit files with gdb. Jan 25 14:27:06 Mortimus - vim is good for exactly one thing: extra-hard search-and-replace. ;) Jan 25 14:27:06 much easier for me when I don't have to lift my fingers from the keyboard Jan 25 14:28:24 Elrond: that's about right. vi's forte is global edits. Emacs is simpler for text entry. But both can obviously do everything. And so can any other editor. Jan 25 14:28:54 Well, vi on the phone doesn't make much fun, having to paint a colon, a "w" and "q" to save-and-exit. ;o) Jan 25 14:29:08 vi's plus is that it is ridiculously small Jan 25 14:29:26 Use ed if size matters ;-) Jan 25 14:29:27 vim isn't really anymore "small". ;) Jan 25 14:30:21 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root bin 1349284 Sep 18 2003 /usr/bin/vim* Jan 25 14:30:27 And the ldd output looks like a christmas tree. Jan 25 14:30:32 i'm an emacs guy, and i think vi would be easier to use on a phone ;) Jan 25 14:30:42 That's an old vim, it's bloated now Jan 25 14:30:44 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2429524 Oct 5 12:17 vim Jan 25 14:30:55 ... Jan 25 14:31:25 21M /usr/share/vim Jan 25 14:32:18 That would eat one third of the flash on the phone. ;) Jan 25 14:32:39 I keep feeling that software would improve if developers were forced to use a fixed hardware platform for non processor intensive apps. Jan 25 14:33:00 Ongoing bloat gets insane. Jan 25 14:33:34 i love industries solution to bloat Jan 25 14:33:43 get bigger and better Jan 25 14:33:44 Buy New Stuff! Jan 25 14:33:58 so that you notice the bloat so much Jan 25 14:34:00 Yes, you need a 4Ghz processor to use teh intarnets! Jan 25 14:34:34 yea thats like having dual core but only ever using one core Jan 25 14:34:57 and keeping it clocked at the lowest possible frequency Jan 25 14:35:02 Yeah. Jan 25 14:35:19 it do that Jan 25 14:35:39 It would be quite nice if you could take a 4Ghz processor, clock it to 400Mhz, and get the same mips/watt. Jan 25 14:35:40 i only got it because i saw my old processor get to 72 c Jan 25 14:35:45 I have a 2.8GHz thingy on my work desktop... and what am I doing? Right: irc. ;o) Jan 25 14:36:15 Elrond: can it cope, though? :) Jan 25 14:36:25 Only if you don't use chatzilla. Jan 25 14:36:51 danilos - At least the fans aren't going loud, so it can't be too heavy. ;) Jan 25 14:37:00 Currently I'm finding it impossible to source the alleged low-power grade of the AMD CPUs. Jan 25 14:37:10 The 35W design power ones. Jan 25 14:37:19 62W are readily available. Jan 25 14:37:33 is that the low end of the envolope ? Jan 25 14:37:36 (ADD / SDD codes = 35W, ADA/SDA = 62W) Jan 25 14:37:37 Well there just won't be room on the Neo for much if we use our normal compiled apps approach. It's either a select few normal apps, or a large number of high-level scripted ones. Jan 25 14:37:55 Something like firefox, could work well. Jan 25 14:38:01 If only it wasn't for the leaks. Jan 25 14:38:31 Maybe just install sessionsaver, and restart it every time the user stops playing with the phone :) Jan 25 14:38:37 would the neo support cpu governors ? Jan 25 14:39:15 Morgret - well, I only want a decent gps. So the phines flash/ram should suffice for that. Jan 25 14:39:26 Aye Jan 25 14:39:39 If only there were a cheap linux database available. Jan 25 14:39:48 SpeedEvil - sqlite. Jan 25 14:39:56 ^road Jan 25 14:40:06 oops Jan 25 14:40:18 Think he meant maps db Jan 25 14:40:23 Ahh. Jan 25 14:40:34 openstreetmap evolves fast these days. Jan 25 14:40:40 The TomTom people might be interesting to talk to - the tomtom devices run on linux, though the app is not seperately available. Jan 25 14:40:46 That's really, why I want a gps. ;) Jan 25 14:40:50 In well-travelled places. Jan 25 14:40:57 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 468896 Aug 22 2005 vi Jan 25 14:41:00 With large tech-interested populations. Jan 25 14:41:10 Damn, my vi is positively scrawny compared to everyone else's Jan 25 14:41:18 320 -r-xr-xr-x 6 root wheel 304508 Jun 8 2006 /usr/bin/vi* Jan 25 14:41:28 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 5 Mar 3 1999 /usr/bin/vi -> elvis* Jan 25 14:41:31 Even smaller! Jan 25 14:41:32 :) Jan 25 14:41:34 Hehehe Jan 25 14:41:38 SE cheats Jan 25 14:41:47 Though elvis is only 300K Jan 25 14:41:56 -r-xr-xr-x 5 root bin 240300 Feb 13 2006 /usr/bin/vi Jan 25 14:42:08 vi on solaris 10 ;) Jan 25 14:42:35 390484 2006-10-19 01:00 /usr/bin/joe Jan 25 14:42:39 * SpeedEvil remembers when he got a working X system up on a 1.44M floppy. Including kernel. Jan 25 14:42:45 Sigh. Jan 25 14:42:46 i guess it depends what you compile it with Jan 25 14:42:55 And the link options. Jan 25 14:43:19 Anyway, I need to do some work. ;) Jan 25 14:43:22 That's nice, Sketch, small. I'll be getting a Sun Fire soon. Jan 25 14:43:26 Later guys. :) Jan 25 14:43:37 Cya Elrond Jan 25 14:43:39 later Jan 25 14:44:22 SpeedEvil: the comment about ongoing bloat reminded me of the time i tried to upgrade a fully functional slackware system with X on a 40mb hard drive from a libc5 based system to a libc6 based system... Jan 25 14:44:35 i didn't even have enough room to install the base system, glibc alone took up over half the drive ;) Jan 25 14:44:40 Hehe Jan 25 14:46:28 My little Slug's got a 2.2G CF-size microdrive. How tech changes Jan 25 14:47:44 I've wondered about a tool that makes sparse libraries. Simply omitting stuff that's not used by a set of programs. Jan 25 14:48:15 sounds like a binary distro Jan 25 14:48:25 counter Jan 25 14:48:25 2 weeks, 2 days 08:40:42 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 14:48:39 we have a counter Jan 25 14:48:45 thats funny Jan 25 14:49:21 But it's stuck. No matter how many times I've looked at it today, it's always said 2 week 2 days ..... ;-) Jan 25 14:51:49 i love how i get scan lines when using the dvd player Jan 25 15:11:33 A watched project never releases. Jan 25 15:12:08 haha Jan 25 15:12:32 That's why Mickey doesn't have a webcam :-D Jan 25 15:12:52 especially if your counter is broken Jan 25 15:18:25 counter Jan 25 15:18:25 2 weeks, 2 days 08:10:41 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 15:40:31 We're all going to be nervous wrecks by 2 weeks 2 day's time!!!! Jan 25 15:59:48 I'm curious how many devs from Poland will get/buy neo1973 Jan 25 16:01:16 detto with hungary;) Jan 25 16:02:37 MetaMorfoziS: I'm the only one official OE devel in Poland ;D Jan 25 16:02:52 :D Jan 25 16:30:57 openmoko is going to use sysvint? Jan 25 16:31:29 Mortimus: rather yes Jan 25 16:32:31 i don't care for sysvint:(, I should attempt to get a dev environment going Jan 25 16:32:40 to see if i can get initng going Jan 25 16:33:02 sysvinit definitly until phase 1 Jan 25 16:33:13 between phase 1 and phase 2 we are going to move to another init system Jan 25 16:33:19 which one has not been decided Jan 25 16:33:23 it needs to be FAST Jan 25 16:33:32 bootup time is crucial Jan 25 16:33:54 ok, sysvinit has one thing going its STABLE Jan 25 16:35:10 mickeyl: does MokoPIM has MokoToday? Jan 25 16:37:17 hrw: yeah. at least the specs is done, but no code yet. i'm hoping to finish this in time for phase 1 Jan 25 16:37:25 (or someone else) Jan 25 16:37:44 openmoko-today is supposed to be the root window application Jan 25 16:37:57 for phase 0 we will just ship a main menu and some additional apps Jan 25 16:38:37 I hope that it takes plugins Jan 25 16:39:04 rofl Jan 25 16:39:13 buz: ? Jan 25 16:39:19 kubuntu has kde 3.5.6 debs out before the release announcement is even out Jan 25 16:39:41 now pray fix that dreaded height bug in konqui Jan 25 16:39:41 buz: OE often got software before release was announced Jan 25 16:39:42 ? Jan 25 16:39:48 kde 3.5.6 stable is out? Jan 25 16:39:57 MetaMorfoziS: seems like it is Jan 25 16:40:06 riddell doesnt usually pass beta for stable Jan 25 16:40:08 i thought that is @ 3.5.8 iirc. Jan 25 16:40:17 no, 3.5.5 Jan 25 16:40:23 thats the current Jan 25 16:40:28 es Jan 25 16:40:30 yes Jan 25 16:40:35 but the next dev version iirc that i see is 3.5.80 Jan 25 16:40:44 http://kde.org/ Jan 25 16:40:51 :D Jan 25 16:40:51 should be 3.8.20 ? Jan 25 16:40:55 http://kde.org/announcements/announce-3.5.6.php Jan 25 16:41:18 http://kubuntu.org/ Jan 25 16:41:27 huh kubu guys are fast as lightning:D Jan 25 16:41:33 i'm go to upgrade:) Jan 25 16:41:41 yeah me too Jan 25 16:41:46 now where does that gpg key live Jan 25 16:42:05 ah there it is Jan 25 16:42:07 i think you have checked that minute that is before the announce and after the relase:D Jan 25 16:42:25 why i need a new repo to add? Jan 25 16:42:26 brah. Jan 25 16:42:40 always with late updates for kubuntu Jan 25 16:43:25 you gotta be kidding me Jan 25 16:43:31 that mirror delivers 50K Jan 25 16:43:33 on a 5mbit pipe Jan 25 16:43:47 hoh, i try: deb http://kubuntu.org/packages/kde-latest instead of deb http://kubuntu.org/packages/kde-356 Jan 25 16:43:56 because: http://kubuntu.org/packages/kde-latest/ Jan 25 16:44:10 oh thats neat Jan 25 16:44:15 i always wondered why that doesnt exist Jan 25 16:45:08 oh Jan 25 16:45:11 kubuntu.org is much faster Jan 25 16:45:24 yep, the others always slow Jan 25 16:45:36 are we supposed to restart X after upgrade, anyway? Jan 25 16:45:37 bleeding edge Jan 25 16:46:19 i would recommend restarting X since you would still be running old versions of the binarys Jan 25 16:46:26 until you restart Jan 25 16:46:32 yeah i figured Jan 25 16:46:36 :) Jan 25 16:46:47 hmm 100mb of download (with beryl upgrades) Jan 25 16:46:55 oh, is openmoko able to run beryl? Jan 25 16:46:58 i'm just kidding:)) Jan 25 16:47:08 your SICK Jan 25 16:47:13 you might be able to run beryl on an iphone Jan 25 16:47:37 i'm don't want a trendy bullshit phone Jan 25 16:47:37 is that unix based like the rest of mac? Jan 25 16:47:58 dunno Jan 25 16:51:16 buz, did you know "yakuake"? Jan 25 16:53:12 why would you want to install KDE on OpenMoko ? Jan 25 16:53:47 loufoque - To get krusader ;) Jan 25 16:53:51 :DDDDD Jan 25 16:54:08 no i'm just kidding, i don'T think this device is able to run any bigger de's Jan 25 16:54:11 '- Jan 25 16:54:47 I wonder if there are any flash memories that can cope with swapping. Jan 25 16:54:48 Elrond: even rox-filer is better than that Jan 25 16:54:49 but i'll be happy if this device have some very usefull features that kde have Jan 25 16:55:42 loufoque - Hmm, let me try rox-filer. :) Jan 25 16:56:54 even kde should work on 128mb Jan 25 16:57:21 * mickeyl hints at s3c2410 again Jan 25 16:57:33 guys, please don't have too high hopes on the performance Jan 25 16:57:44 yeah Jan 25 16:57:48 the main CPU is pretty slow. i wouldn't even think about KDE Jan 25 16:58:02 even naked Gtk+ is sluggish at this (unoptimized) point Jan 25 16:58:14 no way to use qt? Jan 25 16:58:17 you can use qt Jan 25 16:58:18 ~lart lack of FPU and hardware accel Jan 25 16:58:18 * apt stabs lack of FPU and hardware accel Jan 25 16:58:21 so I can't use the neo1973 to do scientific computations? Jan 25 16:58:21 but you're not getting eye candy Jan 25 16:58:25 lol Jan 25 16:58:27 ;) Jan 25 16:58:30 :DD Jan 25 16:58:33 * XorA wonders if in KDE you could actually get to the menu to turn off eye candy before battery went flat Jan 25 16:58:36 yep but not get a buggy widget set:D Jan 25 16:58:45 * mjr reconsiders installing Octave on Neo Jan 25 16:58:58 mickeyl: I hope neo 2 will be DIRAC :-) Jan 25 16:59:08 if you know what the first ipaq can do, think that with a better screen Jan 25 16:59:10 mhh entereing formula on a touchscreen is gonna suck Jan 25 16:59:11 XorA: my 2year old, noname notebook runs 2.5hours with kde (under working, not standying) Jan 25 16:59:15 XorA: neo 2 will have pleeeeeeeeenty of power. and that's about all i can say Jan 25 16:59:17 mickeyl - I want a "free gps" anyway only. :) Jan 25 16:59:27 * XorA guesses mx31 or DIRAC then Jan 25 16:59:51 who makes dirac Jan 25 16:59:55 i only know the codec by that name Jan 25 16:59:58 ditto Jan 25 17:00:08 8Ghz processor, powered by a little turbine running from the convection currents from the CPU :) Jan 25 17:00:10 putting Qt on the device will be an interesting experience Jan 25 17:00:10 imx31 sound schweet tho Jan 25 17:00:19 is the "TYPING" possible humanly on this device with touchscreen? (like an onscreen keyboard?) Jan 25 17:00:24 i would have done this earlier, but i have no time Jan 25 17:00:26 MetaMorfoziS: you probably didn't configure the battery management very well Jan 25 17:00:33 Ttthere are various ways to enter text. Jan 25 17:00:37 loufoque: really? Jan 25 17:00:41 i always use kde on my notebook Jan 25 17:00:44 how can i do better Jan 25 17:00:45 right now, in fact ;) Jan 25 17:00:53 You can have handwriting recognition, or on-screen letter-boards. Jan 25 17:00:58 MetaMorfoziS: o rly? | loufoque: ya rly Jan 25 17:01:09 :D Jan 25 17:01:13 yeah mx31 looks sweet Jan 25 17:01:17 XorA: got a spec sheet for that mysterious cpu of yours? Jan 25 17:01:28 533mhz(+), l2 cache, mpeg-4 *encode* accell, etc Jan 25 17:01:31 http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.MX31&nodeId=01J4Fs2973ZrDR#orderables Jan 25 17:01:43 yeah that one is really neat Jan 25 17:01:49 tho it needs a good camera to make full use of it Jan 25 17:01:56 i'm asking about it's usefullness, so can i code on that? can i develop on that? (text editing) Jan 25 17:02:01 SpeedEvil - Is that in the base version as shipped in 2 weeks? Jan 25 17:02:01 in humanly and relatively fast way? Jan 25 17:02:05 bluetooth keyboard Jan 25 17:02:06 no Jan 25 17:02:09 Elrond: probably not. Jan 25 17:02:11 not without a keyboard Jan 25 17:02:18 oh my kde upgrade is done Jan 25 17:02:19 bt keyboard? Jan 25 17:02:23 *restartsx* Jan 25 17:02:23 hmm Jan 25 17:02:31 i check out where is that exists. Jan 25 17:02:32 no, it's going to be slow, entering text on a little screen. Whatever you do. Jan 25 17:02:46 targus has a nice folding one Jan 25 17:03:11 logitech *needs* to make a bt trackball though Jan 25 17:03:17 i have no idea why they haven't yet Jan 25 17:03:27 Trackballs are still a bit niche. Jan 25 17:03:42 http://www.mobilport.hu/?r=1295 Jan 25 17:03:48 SpeedEvil - Is the on-screen keyboard ready? Jan 25 17:03:49 bahahhahaaa i want one from this:DD Jan 25 17:03:52 yeah - but still if you're sitting on a couch a bt trackball is much more useful Jan 25 17:04:05 Elrond: I was meaning what's possible - not what's present. Jan 25 17:04:18 SpeedEvil - Ahh. ;) Jan 25 17:04:25 A keyboard hung off the USB or BT ports is needed at first. Jan 25 17:04:37 meta - yeah that one :) Jan 25 17:04:57 so this problem is solved Jan 25 17:04:58 For the usb-keyboard, you'd need a power'd hub, right Jan 25 17:04:59 ? Jan 25 17:05:07 Yes. Jan 25 17:05:10 Or a self-powered keyboard. Jan 25 17:05:15 yes, but if you have a bt one, you isn'T need a cable;) Jan 25 17:05:26 Unless you insist on one. Jan 25 17:05:30 It can get you better range. Jan 25 17:05:37 But that's a little silly. Jan 25 17:06:07 lol, my phone has the HID service o bluetooth, so for mouse i can use my phone, for keyboard i can use this ^^ so i'm getting lol Jan 25 17:06:21 * Elrond wonders, if a desktop-linux-hostusb can emulate an usb-keyboard. ;o= Jan 25 17:06:35 Not directlyt. Jan 25 17:06:46 Elrond: it can Jan 25 17:06:56 it have a bluetooth hid service Jan 25 17:07:14 and i succesfully used my phone as a mouse, so the keyboard is possible as the same (kuuntu edgy) Jan 25 17:07:19 However, you can talk to thephone likke a USB peripheral, have a network connection to it, and put the keyboard over that protocol. Jan 25 17:07:33 * MetaMorfoziS 's kde upgrade is fine brb! Jan 25 17:08:13 So this really is a geek device currently. ;) Jan 25 17:09:05 Sysinfo for 'powa': Linux 2.6.17-10-generic running KDE 3.5.6, CPU: Intel(R)Pentium(R)DCPU2.66GHz at 2660 MHz (5320 bogomips), , RAM: 941/1003MB, 108 proc's, 2.29h up Jan 25 17:09:10 yeppej Jan 25 17:09:16 But still looks like the better choice than a garmin gpsmap60cx ;o) Jan 25 17:11:19 and what goes the default browser on openmoko? Jan 25 17:11:27 ( relating: http://www.kde.org/announcements/changelogs/changelog3_5_5to3_5_6.php khtml gets hm.) Jan 25 17:18:15 would you use a trackball with your mobile phone? Jan 25 17:18:26 if it were built into the phone, that would actually be really cool Jan 25 17:18:42 Maybe if it were in the back, you could manipulate it with your pointer while looking at the screne. Jan 25 17:18:46 screen* Jan 25 17:19:03 trackball is the mouse that is rotated?:) Jan 25 17:19:11 PirateHead: there's one in the new Pearl phones Jan 25 17:19:20 cool, LoRez Jan 25 17:19:45 you could click by pushing it in Jan 25 17:19:59 right click by pushing in and holding, like on a Mac one-button Jan 25 17:20:17 and move by rotating Jan 25 17:20:18 I dig it Jan 25 17:28:40 Are the two buttons on the neo mapped to two mouse buttons? Jan 25 17:35:58 While I would love to do some app for the OpenMoko, I fear my developer skills are inferior. Would there instead be interest in shipping units to strategically placed individuals, who could then act as role models? ;-) Jan 25 17:37:14 Fjodor: you could just buy one. the developer models are assigned already. Jan 25 17:38:32 cjb: Fair enough. The trouble is money, though. I am a university student Jan 25 17:39:15 why don't you earn money with modeling? *g* Jan 25 17:40:17 LittleIdiot: Lol. Though that is another problem. I can't earn any money on the sort of scholarship I get Jan 25 17:40:46 the whore yourself under the table Jan 25 17:40:57 lord knows I did** Jan 25 17:42:32 Yes, well, I know my proposal was ridiculous, but there might have been a chance :-) At any rate, I could probably get some pretty smart guys interested in the device Jan 25 17:43:12 Fjodor: That's what I'm trying to too ;) Jan 25 17:43:33 I wonder... Jan 25 17:43:43 CM :-) Jan 25 17:44:15 There's unlikely to be a shortage of developers, as soon as there is a streamlined official OE build framework. I bet apps will appear in huge numbers. Jan 25 17:44:22 I wonder if apps should be written in 640x480 Gtk2::Windows Jan 25 17:44:32 or whether there is a custom container widget that we should be using Jan 25 17:45:45 I can wait 2 weeks and see what's available by then Jan 25 17:46:40 noidd: afaik there are a few custom widgets Jan 25 17:47:40 buz: I know, just curious as to what Gtk widget they inherit from. Jan 25 17:47:59 then I can be sure I can just swap the object out with the new one and everything should "Just Work"[tm] Jan 25 17:48:18 Btw., the February launch. Will that be to the Asian, American, European market or all of them? Jan 25 17:48:25 that will be devs only Jan 25 17:48:31 55 devs in total Jan 25 17:48:32 march will be world wide Jan 25 17:48:39 March, ok Jan 25 17:48:58 Fjodor - 6 weeks to wait... And I want a toy now! ;) Jan 25 17:49:04 :-D Jan 25 17:49:16 I saw someone say that during the wee hours of the morning so take it with a pinch of salt (it wasn't being said by one of teh devs) Jan 25 17:49:17 go, play with youself, i can send you some pron ;) Jan 25 17:49:18 now if only the case had lego moldings Jan 25 17:49:20 Elrond: Indeed Jan 25 17:49:50 Wow, for the first time in my life I'm actually going to have a use for GtkFixed Jan 25 17:49:53 :-P Jan 25 17:50:19 XorA: Actually, at my uni, we have a course about programming the Lego Mindstorms thingy :-) Jan 25 17:50:36 Fjodor - fun. :) Jan 25 17:50:41 That's what we were saying earlier, that the plastic shell had better be swappable, or at least some in several shades, or the market shrinks. Some people said they wouldn't be seen dead buying the white model for example. Jan 25 17:51:29 programming lego mindstorms in college? Jan 25 17:51:32 noidd: 55? LaF0rge wrote about 50 Jan 25 17:51:56 Mortimus: Not college. Actual university :-) Jan 25 17:52:18 the cancer is infecting my brain Jan 25 17:52:19 LaF0rge would know better than I. Jan 25 17:52:27 tell them to learn asm Jan 25 17:52:34 I can't remember the course name or description, but it should be fun Jan 25 17:52:44 that will make them xplode Jan 25 17:52:49 then the devs just have to hide them from any PHBs wandering around Jan 25 17:52:59 I saw mickeyl talking about the processor earlier Jan 25 17:53:09 I wonder how it compares to any of the Zaurii Jan 25 17:53:18 noidd: SLOW!!!!!!!! Jan 25 17:53:29 noidd: well approx 5500 speed Jan 25 17:53:46 mpd would be great on that Jan 25 17:53:47 XorA - hehe. Yep. I would want to hold one in my hand, before buying. $350 is a lot for something I never have had in my hand. Jan 25 17:53:53 it uses like no res Jan 25 17:54:13 mpd? Jan 25 17:54:15 What's really needed for the v3: http://youtube.com/watch?v=EgiJREIYo04 Little legs. Jan 25 17:54:24 music player daemon Jan 25 17:54:40 Mortimus: Well, there are probably some deeper things to learn from it (and yes, they use the Java tools for programming it), but We just hear that it is a course in Lego :-) Jan 25 17:55:02 i have to find my phone i just heard it Jan 25 17:55:10 SpeedEvil: ah those irritating adverts Jan 25 17:55:27 Lego rulez Jan 25 17:55:32 Actual legs so it could walk across desks would be handy though. Jan 25 17:55:35 asm is overrated Jan 25 17:55:40 The Neo's S32410 is about the same speed as the CPU in the Slug, when running at its proper speed (NSLU2 is /2 underclocked): Jan 25 17:55:42 5500 speed was Ok Jan 25 17:55:46 cat /proc/cpuinfo Jan 25 17:55:46 Processor : XScale-IXP42x Family rev 1 (v5b) Jan 25 17:55:46 BogoMIPS : 132.71 Jan 25 17:55:54 Multiply x 2 Jan 25 17:56:42 One of my project may be a no-go from the start then for usability reasons. Jan 25 17:56:48 I'll have to dust off my Zaurii and test Jan 25 17:57:09 noidd - What did you plan? Jan 25 17:57:11 XorA: Indeed :-) Jan 25 17:57:35 Are the 50 devs known? So we can hunt them and look at their models? Jan 25 17:57:54 a set of application building modules to make it easier for non-programmers to build their own apps. Jan 25 17:58:25 split? Jan 25 17:58:35 a bit:) Jan 25 17:58:41 my zaurus (C3100) has an XScale-PXA270 w/ 415.33 bogomips Jan 25 17:58:58 what is bogomips? Jan 25 17:59:04 Elrond: you stalker dude :-) Jan 25 17:59:05 ASM FORCES creativity Jan 25 17:59:13 not sure how that compares since it's a different model cpu Jan 25 17:59:33 bogomips is just how the kernel syncs to the cpu (i think) Jan 25 17:59:38 MetaMorfoziS: a speed test of a specific loop used by the kernel (not really a good benchmark) Jan 25 17:59:41 MetaMorfoziS: As far as I know, it is a sort of unified way to tell how much "work" a CPU can do Jan 25 17:59:53 XorA - I don't like buying stuff, I never could have taken in my hands before. Jan 25 18:00:03 and what is best if its low or hi? (hi ithink?) Jan 25 18:00:04 MetaMorfoziS: And as Sketch said, not very acurate Jan 25 18:00:12 MetaMorfoziS: High Jan 25 18:00:12 uhm Jan 25 18:00:28 http://tldp.org/HOWTO/BogoMips/bogo-faq.html Jan 25 18:01:29 Hmm, the audio for the gsm has to go through the cpu, right? Jan 25 18:02:05 Elrond: go to FOSDEM Jan 25 18:02:58 XorA - Huh? Jan 25 18:03:34 http://www.fosdem.org/2007/ Jan 25 18:03:49 i think he means /\ Jan 25 18:04:07 Yeah, just found it. Belgium.... far away. Jan 25 18:04:38 too far/expensive for me as well :/ Jan 25 18:04:57 anything similar for the east U.S. Jan 25 18:05:09 Oh wait. I'm on holiday at that time. ;)) Jan 25 18:06:02 hm, bogomips is intresting Jan 25 18:06:35 Anyway, I'm getting home. Jan 25 18:06:37 so if i tweak my kernel i can use this, to check the prefix of my tweak Jan 25 18:07:37 bogomips is a useless value Jan 25 18:07:49 he is right Jan 25 18:07:54 :/ Jan 25 18:08:38 bogomip = needed a timing loop (the time is too short and/or needs to be too exact for a non-busy-loop method of waiting), which must be calibrated to the processor speed of the machine Jan 25 18:08:48 thats all you need to know Jan 25 18:09:15 used for syncing to cpu Jan 25 18:11:48 eh Jan 25 18:11:49 :/ Jan 25 18:12:00 is there a usable value? Jan 25 18:12:45 that is usable for comparison/testing (a benchmark) Jan 25 18:12:45 no. do a real benchmark. you can't compare different architectures that easily. Jan 25 18:13:05 it always depends on the use case... Jan 25 18:13:26 LittleIdiot: architectures is one thing. machines is second Jan 25 18:14:04 zaurus c760 with pxa255/400 is faster then zaurus sl5600 with pxa255/400 when it comes to graphics Jan 25 18:14:07 etc Jan 25 18:15:23 hrw: I have a c760 and 5500. I'm guessing the neo as about the same speed as the 5500 Jan 25 18:16:05 noidd: on desk I have 5500, 6000, 760, 3000 Jan 25 18:17:32 LittleIdiot: I like to use Pov-Ray for benchmarks. I wonder if I can get it running on my Neo1973... and how many years it would take to render one of the standard benchmark scenes. Jan 25 18:17:50 *sigh* Jan 25 18:18:52 runniing CPU hogs on embedded platforms is useless method Jan 25 18:19:39 noidd: I have never understood the point of creating tools so that non-programmers can build apps. Jan 25 18:20:06 noidd: It's tough enough to build apps when you have fine scripting control over the GUI, API, etc; as in C++ or Python. For non-programmers, things quickly become a nightmare. Jan 25 18:20:07 PirateHead: do you compare speed of newest radeon to newest geforce watching 320x200 animations? Jan 25 18:20:38 hrw: I have never owned a graphics card. Don't make me feel so inferior just because I'm poor. :-( Jan 25 18:21:55 I don't get your point anyway though, hrw. Isn't the point of a graphics card to render in high-resolution? Jan 25 18:22:34 pixel shaders and texture pipelines and all that hawtness? Jan 25 18:23:10 PirateHead: the same comes to tortuting embedded devices with cpu hogs. embedded power is small size rather then power Jan 25 18:27:26 Well, if you're referring to my comment about Pov-Ray, I was kidding. Pov-Ray is too CPU and memory intensive for anything but a performance machine. Jan 25 18:27:39 ;) Jan 25 18:27:59 I had not so good day Jan 25 18:29:05 some new screengrabs here. (or at least. i've not seem them before) --> http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/01/fancy_an_open_i_1.html Jan 25 18:30:55 "They have borrowed code from TomTom for the SD card support and currently have all their core libraries in C. " Jan 25 18:31:10 so chances are tomtom might port their app to openmoko? Jan 25 18:31:27 that's a bit of a leap :D Jan 25 18:31:57 Users building apps is just the logical extension to customization Jan 25 18:31:59 well tomtom isnt linux unfriendly at least Jan 25 18:32:16 buz: no, indeed, and I would think about buying tomtom for moko if they did it Jan 25 18:32:23 yeah me too Jan 25 18:32:34 I wonder if the 1973 has all the stuff they need in hardware, though Jan 25 18:32:36 it would certainly give tomtom a lot of goodwill Jan 25 18:32:42 should have? Jan 25 18:32:53 touchscreen, gps, speaker all there Jan 25 18:32:58 does tomtom know which direction it's pointing? Jan 25 18:33:07 not sure Jan 25 18:33:12 probably not Jan 25 18:33:16 it does run on pda after all Jan 25 18:33:32 oh, that's true enough Jan 25 18:34:00 and if they're smart, they can also run it on maemo Jan 25 18:34:16 TomTom knows the direction by comparing the last and the current position as far as I know. Jan 25 18:34:49 But well alright, that's not the direction you're pointing... it'd need a compass for that heh. Jan 25 18:35:52 b_lindeijer: having a direction when you start a journey would be useful Jan 25 18:36:04 rather than setting off in a direction and seeing whether or not you were right :) Jan 25 18:37:08 so_solid_moo: Usually roads limit you quite a lot in which direction you can actually set off. :) Jan 25 18:37:19 well theres still the wrong one Jan 25 18:37:21 usually Jan 25 18:37:26 right :) Jan 25 18:37:48 I think TomTom already knows which way you're going after a few meters, not sure though. Jan 25 18:37:58 Which would mean that from house to the road, it already can put the map in the right position. Jan 25 18:38:23 * so_solid_moo has never used tomtom Jan 25 18:38:24 Anyway, I'm just guessing so I should really just shut up about it. Jan 25 18:39:07 i only ever sit besides someone using it Jan 25 18:39:08 seems ok Jan 25 18:39:40 Me too. Jan 25 18:39:57 Though pretty soon, I will see Google Maps on my phone, displaying my current position. :P Jan 25 18:41:00 mapswont give you directions Jan 25 18:41:16 Hmm, but well Google Maps does. Jan 25 18:41:20 (it would still be more useful than most passengers looking at map) Jan 25 18:41:28 how? Jan 25 18:41:38 At least on maps.google.com I can search for a route. Jan 25 18:41:44 you click on the destination, and do 'route here / from here' Jan 25 18:42:00 mhh never seen that Jan 25 18:42:10 I think what so_solid_moo is talking about it in Google Earth. Jan 25 18:42:11 is in* Jan 25 18:42:16 no, it's on google maps Jan 25 18:42:19 I use it. Jan 25 18:42:33 oh Jan 25 18:42:34 get directions Jan 25 18:42:41 But on maps.google.com I see only "get directions" Jan 25 18:42:55 bunch of idiots Jan 25 18:43:02 they show me the place i live, but can't find it Jan 25 18:43:08 maps.google.com has 'route here / from here' Jan 25 18:43:10 Try also typing your country. Jan 25 18:43:21 well they do show it to me, name and all Jan 25 18:43:28 brb Jan 25 18:43:34 hrw: Ah I see now, but only after you search for a location it seems. Jan 25 18:43:40 but routing to it doesnt work Jan 25 18:43:54 buz: their routing software isn't actually much good Jan 25 18:43:54 mhh between big cities it seems to work Jan 25 18:44:01 at least, in the UK it comes out with rubbish routes Jan 25 18:44:04 not very much Jan 25 18:44:25 weird Jan 25 18:44:31 it displays the name of the town, but can't find it Jan 25 18:44:36 what kind of fucked up db is this Jan 25 18:45:11 ~ibot Jan 25 18:45:25 it has been said that ibot is a blootbot written in perl run by TimRiker on his server. logs on http://ibot.rikers.org// , ibot, jbot, apt are all the same process. It uses sqlite, but mysql or other SQL storage is also supported. Jan 25 18:45:31 Works fine for finding route from my parents to some address in the city: http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=Viaductstraat,+9725+Groningen,+Netherlands&saddr=verlengde+vennootsweg+32,+een+west,+netherlands&f=l&sll=53.21053,6.57006&sspn=0.0078,0.025578&ie=UTF8&z=11&om=1 Jan 25 18:58:22 BTW: How does one switch the neo on/off? Jan 25 18:58:37 Elrond: probably with a button Jan 25 18:59:04 So one of the two buttons is gone for power ;) Jan 25 18:59:29 depends, it could have different meanings depending on how much time you keep it pressed Jan 25 18:59:49 those are just suppositions though Jan 25 19:01:16 So to answer that question I have to wait untill feb/11? ;) Jan 25 19:03:39 i believe they stated each button had a short press and a long press Jan 25 19:03:47 Elrond, probably you can reprogram them ;) Jan 25 19:06:03 morricone - ;) Jan 25 19:06:25 So if I muck up with it, I have to remove the battery. ;o) Jan 25 19:10:34 http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/01/fancy_an_open_i_1.html Jan 25 19:10:47 are the last images from this article new or old images? Jan 25 19:16:30 and are they images or mockups Jan 25 19:17:08 true, i've never seen them before, they look pretty descent. Jan 25 19:22:47 cu Jan 25 19:32:23 adobe acrobat reader is TRASH on linux Jan 25 19:33:58 xpdf ftw Jan 25 19:34:10 i should use that Jan 25 19:34:31 but is there anything else that has a firefox extension Jan 25 19:35:32 doubt it Jan 25 19:36:24 afaik xpdf's redering engine is exportable... writing a firefox plugin should be easy then Jan 25 19:37:45 * SpeedEvil ponders why Neo1973 shows tens of thousands of hits on google-images, and 5 are relevant. Jan 25 19:38:02 for me as a pdf light user evince is the best ;) Jan 25 19:38:31 i use them only for spec sheets that i rarely go to Jan 25 19:38:40 its nice to have them open within firefox Jan 25 19:38:52 instead of having another window to lose Jan 25 19:46:01 i just realized how slow this thing might be Jan 25 19:46:54 I get the impression P100 is about the right aimpoit. Jan 25 19:47:00 Aimpoint. Jan 25 19:53:04 as in pentium 100? Jan 25 19:54:36 Yes Jan 25 20:03:32 counter Jan 25 20:03:33 2 weeks, 2 days 03:25:32 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 20:03:50 that always give me a laugh Jan 25 20:15:13 what, the counter borg? Jan 25 20:19:31 hola Jan 25 20:27:49 what is the use of an accelerometer inside a phone? Jan 25 20:28:12 i don't think i would use a phone for physics class Jan 25 20:28:41 Mortimus: games? auto-screen rotation? Jan 25 20:29:04 perhaps navigation, combined with gps Jan 25 20:29:12 ok got it Jan 25 20:29:39 Dasher (dasher.org.uk) can write at 15wpm using an accelerometer. So, that's a huge deal if you don't have a keyboard on the device. Jan 25 20:30:23 If it's small enough, you can use it like a pen. Jan 25 20:30:38 And use the accellerometer to decode the normal writing motions. Jan 25 20:30:51 I would hate to try doing that on the trains around here Jan 25 20:30:55 yow, that sounds hard to use. Jan 25 20:30:56 :) Jan 25 20:31:00 but fun. Jan 25 20:32:08 TBH one use for an accellerometer for me would be to turn the alarm off in the morning :) just shake it untill it shuts up :) Jan 25 20:32:11 It works better for logging actual pens. Jan 25 20:32:20 RevTig: that would be cool Jan 25 20:32:30 Or throw it against the wall. Jan 25 20:32:50 at $350 I would have to pad the wall :) Jan 25 20:33:12 Yeah - it'd be nice to have actual phones that you can throw against the wall. Jan 25 20:33:40 Or even a decent 'robustness' standard. Jan 25 20:34:05 It did also occur to me what to do with a gen one device when the gen two and three versions come out (hopefully) and I think I know what I will do with my gen one (assuming I can get one before the sell out) Jan 25 20:34:07 rubber 'baby' buggy bumpers Jan 25 20:34:08 drop in random orientations at various heights onto concrete, and report the failure. Repeat with carpet. Jan 25 20:34:17 I will wire it into the car :) Jan 25 20:34:34 I've done interesting thigs with that. Jan 25 20:34:43 Take 2 USB el-cheapo mice. Jan 25 20:34:47 oh this could be use to get out of supporting the device Jan 25 20:34:53 8 hall effect sensors, and some magnets. Jan 25 20:35:02 This gives you 4 wheel position and rotation sensors. Jan 25 20:35:07 because it can log drops Jan 25 20:35:09 With integrated counters. Jan 25 20:35:11 and abuse Jan 25 20:35:38 And you get 6 or so inputs, all nearly free. Jan 25 20:37:41 this may sound like an odd question but I can't see it in the mailing lists unless I have missed something... where abouts is the USB socket on the NEO ? Jan 25 20:38:21 as in where it is located Jan 25 20:38:21 because if it was bottom centre then it would be trivial to make a dock like device for it Jan 25 20:38:33 I can't see that either. Jan 25 20:38:37 a dock would be nice Jan 25 20:38:37 yes. we know it is on there but where :) Jan 25 20:38:55 if it is at the bottom then all you need is a USB cable and a guide Jan 25 20:39:06 And I'm interested for slightly different reasons - can I make something that clamps onto the base of the phone, plugs into the socket, and exposes a new socket. Jan 25 20:39:21 For added hardware. Jan 25 20:39:51 well would that not be the same as the dock but going straight into a powered USB hub? Jan 25 20:40:00 developer dock! Jan 25 20:40:09 or are you on about something for on the move? Jan 25 20:40:12 that would be awesome Jan 25 20:40:13 No - camera, hampster-wheel power addition, ... Jan 25 20:40:45 I am not a USB or hardware expert but isn't USB DC? Jan 25 20:40:50 Yes. Jan 25 20:40:57 5V +-10% nominal. Jan 25 20:41:19 if so can't we just with a bit of splicing and some diodes create a USB power injector? Jan 25 20:41:32 For what? Jan 25 20:41:38 so a sort of USB cable that you can connect a battery pack to Jan 25 20:41:52 It's simpler - you just need to take off the power wire. Jan 25 20:42:01 and connect it to a +5V source Jan 25 20:42:27 The hard part is for mobile stuff that you want to shut off. Jan 25 20:42:33 yeah, people have done it for the nokia 770 Jan 25 20:42:44 As you need some way for the phone to turn the device off. Jan 25 20:42:48 so 4 AAA batteries strapped to the back of the USB wifi dongle :) Jan 25 20:43:01 * cjb would buy that. :) Jan 25 20:43:04 It's probably 1li-ion AAA cell, and a switching regulator. Jan 25 20:44:24 RevTig > you can buy in the local hacker store wery small, poerfull and nice accumulators, that output is 6volt Jan 25 20:44:39 oo :) Jan 25 20:44:40 and a simple voltage reducer or how it spelled ic Jan 25 20:44:46 Regulator. Jan 25 20:44:50 hang on, where, I am in the UK :) Jan 25 20:44:51 ^ yep Jan 25 20:44:53 The hard part is getting it light ans small. Jan 25 20:45:02 And ideally charging over USB. Jan 25 20:45:56 http://www.varta-microbattery.com/en/oempages/index.htm Jan 25 20:45:57 lol! Jan 25 20:45:59 And cheap. Jan 25 20:46:03 http://www.usbcell.com/ <-- ok they are AA but.... Jan 25 20:46:05 check the technology selectbox:D Jan 25 20:54:24 The Neo's got an accelerometer? Hehe, fun. Pity it doesn't have 3, then we could use it like the Wiimote :P Jan 25 20:54:50 it has bluetooth Jan 25 20:54:53 just pair it with a wiimote ) Jan 25 20:54:55 ;) Jan 25 20:56:20 Integration. You don't want to carry additional gadgets around with you. Jan 25 20:57:02 hi, do somebody know, it screenshots in this article are real? Jan 25 20:57:02 http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/01/fancy_an_open_i_1.html Jan 25 20:57:10 haha Jan 25 20:57:15 i asked this earlier Jan 25 20:58:09 and get some answer? Jan 25 20:58:41 no :( Jan 25 20:58:44 :/ Jan 25 20:58:57 the top are the same pics that have been around, the bottom ones are new to me. Jan 25 20:59:00 Real photos in marketting images? Give over. That would get you disbarred from the Marketting Guild. Jan 25 20:59:49 Morgret: i mean screenshots Jan 25 21:00:45 I suspect those screenshots are mockups as they include what looks to be a wifi indicator Jan 25 21:01:26 that's actually what got my interest originally in the shot. Jan 25 21:02:12 I'm pretty sure this are mock-ups Jan 25 21:03:44 Does FIC manufacture a PDA based on the same SoC? Or a phone, but a traditional closed one? Jan 25 21:03:56 i think i read a dev complaining about the marketers giving out mockups Jan 25 21:04:06 Morgret: a winmobile phone Jan 25 21:04:20 using the very same hardware Jan 25 21:04:33 Aha Jan 25 21:04:52 which i presume, is paying for the hardware development Jan 25 21:05:23 buz: Mock_ups are good and bad. Good for giving a vision of the style and bad for being unable to do all these fancy things by programing. :) Jan 25 21:05:38 not judging any mockups Jan 25 21:05:44 (tho i just hate orange) Jan 25 21:05:50 Oh, be more generous: they consume less power. :P Jan 25 21:06:18 somehow, i don't really see the market for a winmobile phone like that Jan 25 21:06:23 but that's just me Jan 25 21:06:38 buz: Then you have to create a new theme. The default theme and color of openmoko will be orange and grey :) Jan 25 21:06:40 ok the vga screen is still very rare Jan 25 21:07:06 if i could chose, i want a totally black neo Jan 25 21:07:41 * stefan_schmidt even prefers the grey one. Not black, but ok Jan 25 21:07:50 I hope they get the marketting right in September, appealing to the right audience. Eg. it's the ridiculous things that will appeal to the masses, eg: "Download Free Ringtones Forever!" Jan 25 21:08:08 Morgret: you cant do that legally Jan 25 21:08:28 (besides there's tons of phones that can do that, my nearly 4year old p900 sure can use mp3 as ringtones) Jan 25 21:08:37 Marketting has never been constrained by logic nor legalities :P Jan 25 21:08:58 maybe not logic but legalities usually Jan 25 21:09:25 So what? All marketting makes claims that they're the first and doing something novel. You're thinking logically and sensibly. That doesn't apply in marketting ;-) Jan 25 21:09:46 there's a difference between lying and outright breaking the law, obviously Jan 25 21:10:09 then again, if you could possibly have a 7pt disclaimer pointing towards CC Jan 25 21:10:34 Not really, because the claim of "forever" is easily defended by FIC lawyers as meaning "For the lifetime of the product cycle". Jan 25 21:11:58 forever is not the problem Jan 25 21:12:11 getting the mp3 would be Jan 25 21:12:27 then again, make it "Use all YOUR mp3" as ringtones Jan 25 21:12:46 nice images on http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/01/fancy_an_open_i_1.html Jan 25 21:12:47 btw Jan 25 21:13:02 There are tons of copyright-free songs suitable for ringtones. And if MP3 is still encumbered, make them oggs. Jan 25 21:14:27 as for mp3, with a 350$ phone one would think fic could afford the license Jan 25 21:14:47 There are issues with GPLed software and patents Jan 25 21:15:04 Has to be licenced so that the licence applies to the distribution of your distributees Jan 25 21:16:09 then just dont put mp3 codec under the gpl Jan 25 21:16:28 The whole point of the openmoko is to be completely open Jan 25 21:16:33 That would then be out of character with the stated policy. Jan 25 21:16:51 then better remove the agpsd at once Jan 25 21:16:55 Indeed. If you want a non-open phone, but FIC's Win-based one Jan 25 21:17:23 see there's ideals and there's reality Jan 25 21:17:48 I hope for agpsd to be replaced by an open one once. Jan 25 21:17:48 (personally i live in a country where mp3 codecs need not be licensed anyhow) Jan 25 21:18:11 Don't even need the 'A' bit, plain RF GPS works fine Jan 25 21:18:27 Morgret: dont be so sure about that Jan 25 21:18:34 AFAIK, the whole processing is done on the hostcpu Jan 25 21:18:37 not in the global locate chip Jan 25 21:19:34 Still, a free gpsd would be nice. Jan 25 21:20:38 Afair, even the agps code was open, but just not GPL. Jan 25 21:21:41 After all, that's the reason they couldn't go with any Wifi chipset ... they refused to run closed code on the host SoC. Jan 25 21:22:04 yeah i think its kinda hypocritical myself Jan 25 21:22:28 i think it's a good thing that they refused closed wifi drivers Jan 25 21:22:29 then again wifi driver would likely run in kernel space Jan 25 21:22:47 In what way? If the boundary line of policy is open vs closed source, they've succeeded, even if not pure GPL. Jan 25 21:22:58 as openwrt developer i know how much of a pain in the ass closed source wifi drivers are Jan 25 21:23:20 oh you're the QoS guy? Jan 25 21:24:04 i did some work on that, yes, but most of my work is kernel and build system stuff Jan 25 21:24:17 QoS never worked for me Jan 25 21:24:23 then again i dont really need it either way ;)= Jan 25 21:24:35 (it did work on sveasoft's evil stuff) Jan 25 21:24:54 anyway, thanks for making a great router ;) Jan 25 21:28:55 Has any phone manufacturer come out with an induction-based charger yet, like toothbrushes? Jan 25 21:29:07 Morgret: non-GPL kernel modules are different, they're actually violating copyright, not just ethical concerns Jan 25 21:29:10 dont think so Jan 25 21:29:47 benJIman: and even worse, they're violating one's confidence in the security of one's machine. Jan 25 21:31:44 fwiw my friend theo runs openbsd and has a hell of a time with closed source codecs... he's had to make policy to not allow them at all in his distro. Jan 25 21:33:09 i think most everyone knows theo :) Jan 25 21:34:29 openbsd is not as vogue as other distro's i suppose; but the hardline seems to help them avoid being surprised in ways that have affected linux; with some security and licensing issues that caused problems Jan 25 21:34:57 overall it seems like trying to hold to an ideal is best anyway... Jan 25 21:34:57 OpenBSD is not a disto.... it is a full OS Jan 25 21:35:14 yes i appreciate that; i didn't know the level of expertise here. Jan 25 21:35:43 assume geeks :) Jan 25 21:35:47 heh Jan 25 21:36:07 anselm - Except that stayng very hard to the ideals, makes one frustrated from time to time. Jan 25 21:37:20 I totally agree Jan 25 21:37:34 are there really no totally free mp3 codecs? Jan 25 21:37:45 ogg Jan 25 21:38:04 I think it is a legal question not a software question but I am not an expert Jan 25 21:38:06 mp3 isn't free Jan 25 21:38:13 sigh Jan 25 21:38:19 common, but not technically free Jan 25 21:38:31 btw - there is more info about the agps on the list today Jan 25 21:38:36 That's, why ogg was created. Jan 25 21:38:37 the A part of the GPS can be disabled Jan 25 21:39:01 I don't know if you still need the closed source daemon after your disable it - but you should be able to ask. Jan 25 21:39:02 sorray, ogg + vorbis ;) Jan 25 21:39:08 noidd - Good news. Jan 25 21:39:22 ogg is just a container Jan 25 21:39:33 Yeah, we know ;) Jan 25 21:39:38 LittleIdiot, I was going to be pedantic about that but decided against it :) Jan 25 21:40:34 I think that MP3 and it's market penetration is quite similar to GIFs really Jan 25 21:40:53 RevTig - Right. Jan 25 21:41:30 gif is (now) free tho Jan 25 21:41:43 I am not convinced that there is enough momentum to unseat Mp3 audio with a technically superior and free alternative Jan 25 21:42:05 oh yes gif is now free, pngs still don't rule the earth though Jan 25 21:42:23 RevTig - Yep. As with gif/png. Jan 25 21:42:39 PITA though :) Jan 25 21:42:43 The average customer does not care about licensing. We have to. Jan 25 21:44:44 patenting file formats is sooo un-ethical. Jan 25 21:44:46 also we have to look at licensing in a global context Jan 25 21:44:56 Is ogg lower in CPU on smalll hardware? Jan 25 21:45:06 RevTig - Yp. Jan 25 21:45:28 SpeedEvil - Probably comparable. Jan 25 21:45:48 SpeedEvil, I think it is also to do with the level of compression too Jan 25 21:45:59 SpeedEvil - mp3 has been put into fixed hardware by now. That's, why people love it. ogg/vorbis has not. Jan 25 21:46:02 more compression means more processing time when decoding Jan 25 21:46:48 yep and it has got into chipsets that don't always pay all the royalties :) Jan 25 21:47:14 There's some little hope for ogg/vorbis: The newer pocket-usb-stick-music-players support it. Jan 25 21:50:21 it depends on market, I have not seen many of them in the UK anymore :( Jan 25 21:50:28 On my pii/300/mplayer Jan 25 21:51:08 http://xiph.org/vorbis/listen.html the mid-bitrate samples take about twice aslong to decpde as ogg Jan 25 21:52:27 with ogg Jan 25 21:52:44 I stand corrected. I was thinking of various reports I had seen where ogg was using increased processing and reducing battery life, thinking about it now it never stated if mp3 decoding was being done on chip or in software, I suspect the former... Jan 25 21:53:34 there are a number of ogg decoders Jan 25 21:53:40 the fixed point arith one is more recent Jan 25 21:54:04 not recent here. Jan 25 21:54:35 I didn't say it was recent. Jan 25 21:54:59 I know, this mplayer is 2006 mid I think Jan 25 21:55:48 I think the general point is that mp3 is encumbered and ogg vorbis is as effective and open when run under the same rules :) Jan 25 21:57:26 as a side note, I think an interesting hardware point is what happens when the markets gets this stuff on chipsets.... there was a press release in the UK today about one of the supermarkets selling a DVD player for £9 or about $15? ish Jan 25 21:57:26 right, and encumbered for a few years yet, not matter (much) where you live Jan 25 21:57:46 25 usd Jan 25 21:57:49 15 usd Jan 25 21:57:51 even Jan 25 21:58:21 It's closer to $17 with current exchange rates. But silly. Jan 25 21:58:43 I was winging the exchange rate :) Jan 25 21:58:52 but yes very silly Jan 25 21:59:43 somehow I suspect they are not paying all the royalty fees to all the relevant technology groups :) Jan 25 22:05:05 apparently benefon has a "Twig" GPS phone with Linux on the market, for around 500 euro, presumably closed Jan 25 22:05:36 Well there's no doubt that more and more gadgets are using open source. And when they do, ogg gets added naturally ... so I think ogg will become more common just because FOSS is. Jan 25 22:06:02 I agree with Morgret Jan 25 22:06:16 which reminds me, has nokia added official ogg support for maemo? :] Jan 25 22:06:20 The A1200 is based on linux. Jan 25 22:06:26 But you can't do anything with it Jan 25 22:06:50 I agree, odd though this sounds the mobile market could be the biggest driving force for OGG/Vorbis and potentially Theora Jan 25 22:07:18 as the users are resigned to incompatable ringtones and videos Jan 25 22:08:00 so having a free, sharable and high quality format could be a big selling point Jan 25 22:09:08 When does the mp3 patents run out? Jan 25 22:09:12 2010 iirc Jan 25 22:09:19 so not long now Jan 25 22:10:38 sounds like we should do a processing and battery benchmark w/ ogg vs. mp3 Jan 25 22:11:00 that's what I like with the Neo... we can actually do that once the device is in developer's hands Jan 25 22:11:04 imho when decoding ogg is easier on the hardware than mp3 Jan 25 22:11:09 but i guess the benchmarks will show Jan 25 22:11:24 yeah Jan 25 22:11:29 ogg would at least save a bit of flash Jan 25 22:11:32 Re OGG, there's another issue that's driving it now, a funny one: Shoutcast dropped free support for any streams at rates higher than 128k, which means that the great 192k MP3 streams all disappeared instantly on Jan 1st 2007. But 128k OGG is far better than 128k MP3, so it's gaining ground. Jan 25 22:11:40 mickeyl: We need a big todo list for all devs to take care about :) Jan 25 22:11:49 Yeah - it depends on the hardware. The several tests I did said the other thing for the closest processor I have - PII/300 Jan 25 22:11:53 i'd love to have the giana sisters theme as ringtone ;) Jan 25 22:12:02 stefan_schmidt: we have a gazillion bugs in our bugzilla -- once it gets public it will probably get flooded :)) Jan 25 22:12:03 dunno... ogg has seemed a bit heavier, but I don't know how things go with the usual fixed point codecs Jan 25 22:12:25 mickeyl: Do you already have sounds and ringtones and stuff? Jan 25 22:12:30 Morgret, curious Jan 25 22:12:34 mickeyl: Indeed bugzilla should be good for tracking things down Jan 25 22:12:39 but yeah, it is better, and good for ogg, then Jan 25 22:12:51 mickeyl: well make it public and we can do something. At the moment we can only annoy, lol ;-) Jan 25 22:12:57 alphaone: no. XorA and LaF0rge could get the audio subsystem to work for the very first time this week ;) Jan 25 22:13:14 Morgret: you're welcome :) Jan 25 22:13:20 Hehe Jan 25 22:13:23 I know that i would do the same if i were in your position :) Jan 25 22:13:30 * mickeyl geek lusty as well Jan 25 22:13:36 geek toy, even Jan 25 22:13:45 mickeyl: The guy who did the music for supertux lives with me in the dorm and we would like to make sounds if it is wanted. Jan 25 22:14:04 mickeyl: do you know the colours that are available yet in the phone? Jan 25 22:14:09 s/we/he/ Jan 25 22:14:09 alphaone meant: mickeyl: The guy who did the music for supertux lives with me in the dorm and he would like to make sounds if it is wanted. Jan 25 22:14:13 alphaone: cool, why not. I'm a musician as well, but I probably won't have time for such a task Jan 25 22:14:26 noidd: i know, but i dunno whether i'm allowed to tell :) Jan 25 22:14:43 tease :) Jan 25 22:14:46 * SpeedEvil wants fluorescant orange, with cyan stars. Jan 25 22:14:52 seriously, by now you should expect orange/white, of course. Jan 25 22:14:56 it's a global theme Jan 25 22:14:58 by the way... a great wakeup tone would be my girlfriend saying "darling, i'm pregnant!" Jan 25 22:15:01 look at the planet and the screenshot Jan 25 22:15:05 I would love all black... Jan 25 22:15:08 but I'm biased :-) Jan 25 22:15:09 I keep losing my mobile if it's not brightly coloured. Jan 25 22:15:11 but i think there is also something for us gothic lovers Jan 25 22:15:13 Lettuce green with orange polka dots please Jan 25 22:15:14 * mickeyl eyes LaF0rge Jan 25 22:15:18 j/k Jan 25 22:15:35 15 days to source release Jan 25 22:15:39 Oh, I remember what I needed to ask you Jan 25 22:16:10 The Gtk apps mickeyl - should we make our root container a GtkWindow of size 480x640? Jan 25 22:16:17 As long as there's more than one colour, should be OK. Some people seem to be highly averse to white, that's the only complaint I've heard. Jan 25 22:16:34 there's btw an article in the finnish it week magazine on nokia saying that gps is the future moboile phone killer app, so fic isn't alone in that regard ;] Jan 25 22:16:41 (in addition to benefon, already mentioned) Jan 25 22:16:43 I'm guessing one of the openmoko widgets is inherited from GtkWindow and just swap to that on relase ? Jan 25 22:16:52 mjr: oh that's nice Jan 25 22:17:52 * mjr guesses that the windows should leave a bit of room for a panely thingy Jan 25 22:18:07 noidd: you can do that to get an idea of what size you can expect. it's actually less vertically because you have to subtract the top panel and footer. Jan 25 22:18:16 oh, and set the stock font size to Jan 25 22:18:18 mickeyl: Does the CI of the phone call for some certain theme for the music? Jan 25 22:18:19 hold on... Jan 25 22:18:30 alphaone: don't think so Jan 25 22:18:39 hi Jan 25 22:18:54 hi wansti Jan 25 22:19:10 noidd: font_name = "Vera Sans 16" Jan 25 22:19:15 mickeyl: wansti ist who knows music :-) Jan 25 22:19:22 heya Jan 25 22:19:22 I just enjoy it :-) Jan 25 22:19:31 :-) Jan 25 22:19:33 hey Jan 25 22:19:35 is the guy even Jan 25 22:19:51 how about you look at the screenshots and let yourself be inspired Jan 25 22:19:55 cool would be Jan 25 22:19:56 I saw the H/V panning in the S32410 spec, but didn't notice orientation flipping menioned. Can the h/w do that? Jan 25 22:19:57 one ring tone Jan 25 22:20:00 one alarm tone Jan 25 22:20:03 one incoming sms tone Jan 25 22:20:05 :) Jan 25 22:20:18 So it can handle sms? Jan 25 22:20:18 mickeyl: sounds good Jan 25 22:20:20 one tone to rule them all Jan 25 22:20:42 Morgret: nope. if we want it we need to go xrandr. but given the s3c2410's speed we should forget that right now :/ Jan 25 22:20:49 I should hope it can handle sms :) Jan 25 22:20:51 Elrond: of course. it's a phone Jan 25 22:20:53 how long should they be? and what'll the speakers be capable of? Jan 25 22:21:01 mickeyl: righto Jan 25 22:21:08 I thought the x server could do orientatino flipping Jan 25 22:21:15 mickeyl - It's a geek toy, no? ;) Jan 25 22:21:30 wansti: well, i guess around 15 seconds max for ring and alarm, 5 seconds for sms would be ok Jan 25 22:21:38 the speakers are 1w "stereo" Jan 25 22:21:42 but probably no hifi ;) Jan 25 22:21:49 heh, okay Jan 25 22:21:57 we can use 16bit/32Khz probably Jan 25 22:22:02 I wonder how much electrostatic speakers would cost Jan 25 22:22:04 don't think we can hear 44.1 Jan 25 22:22:08 What? Not hifi??? Oh I'm definitely not buying it then .... ;-)))))) Jan 25 22:22:10 Elrond: right Jan 25 22:22:12 what, no hifi? Jan 25 22:22:19 could put in some huge electrostatic speakers on the back or something Jan 25 22:22:20 * xorAxAx wants to attach his sennheisers Jan 25 22:22:21 (echo) Jan 25 22:22:49 XxorAxAx: you should be able to - there's a headphone jack, right? Jan 25 22:22:51 * mjr ircs via gprs and is a bit slow ;] Jan 25 22:22:56 in order to catch the younger people as potential customers, the speakers have to loud Jan 25 22:22:57 mickeyl - But as there is not text entry, I can't write an sms, right? ;) Jan 25 22:23:06 pjz: yes, but i want 96 KHz, 24 bit, stereo :) Jan 25 22:23:08 Elrond: umpf... right. not yet :/ Jan 25 22:23:11 okay... i'll try to make one or two original ringtones at least, and i'm pretty sure i won't be able to resist making a SuperTux ringtone :-) Jan 25 22:23:18 Elrond: you can scp text files over to the phone ;) Jan 25 22:23:21 xorAxAx: is the headphone jack not stereo!? Jan 25 22:23:31 xorAxAx: oh, wait! Bluetooth! Jan 25 22:23:41 pjz: X11 flipping is xrandr Jan 25 22:23:50 pjz: stereo is not an issue, the sampling rate and depth is Jan 25 22:23:56 mickeyl - It runs sshd? And I would do IP via bt or usb? Jan 25 22:24:02 mickeyl: UI wise, should application devs try to stick to one fullsize window? Jan 25 22:24:09 Elrond: the phone has 2 buttons, so either enter text in binary or in morse code. Jan 25 22:24:10 Elrond: both Jan 25 22:24:14 mickey: ie - avoid dialogue windows etc Jan 25 22:24:36 tchuladdiass - *lol* Jan 25 22:24:42 Elrond: both ways will work sooner or later Jan 25 22:24:47 is the "audio jack" just for headphones or can plug a microphone into it? Jan 25 22:24:47 * mjr would actually find morse text entry somewhat useful, but not sure if enough to implement Jan 25 22:25:15 Sound will be as hifi as the audio DAC on chip allows at the earphone socket, unless some mistake's got into the analogue circuit coming off the SoC. Use good headphones, it should be hifi enough. Jan 25 22:25:23 mjr: I've been toying with the idea of building a bluetooth enabled "keyboard" which is really an iambic paddle :-D Jan 25 22:25:25 noidd: yeah. it's a phone really. for most apps one main window and (few) full screen dialogs should do. we have classes that define the common look&feel (together with the theme) for main window and full screen modal dialogs Jan 25 22:25:41 mjr: so I'm right with you. 40wpm input with a fingerheld paddle Jan 25 22:25:57 noidd: old radio hams will love you :PP Jan 25 22:26:24 mickeyl: Those classes I'm guessing are derived from GtkWindow etc so I can write my app now and just switch them out and the inheritance will do (mostly) the right thing? Jan 25 22:26:47 * mjr is a ham, pretty long qrt though, and morse is rusty, but hey, I can still do it... Jan 25 22:26:52 Morgret: THere is a reason I just threw $100 at a PIC programming kit and components Jan 25 22:27:07 noidd: haha, good use for it Jan 25 22:27:35 noidd: not quite, i.e. mainwindow derived from GtkVPaned to recreate our common 4 part look&feel Jan 25 22:27:37 Athough getting a Bluetooth stack into a PIC will be a challange Jan 25 22:27:41 1.) menubox Jan 25 22:27:46 2.) navigation window Jan 25 22:27:49 3.) tool bar Jan 25 22:27:51 4.) details window Jan 25 22:28:00 navigation window often containing a tree view or what not Jan 25 22:28:07 details window containing info about the selected entity Jan 25 22:28:13 that concept works for a whole lot of apps Jan 25 22:28:17 consistently Jan 25 22:28:55 mickeyl - Bad apps can use the full screen, if they want to? ;) Jan 25 22:29:25 Hehe, look'n'feel will go out the window after a few cycles of FOSS scratching personal itches. Jan 25 22:29:26 counter Jan 25 22:29:27 2 weeks, 2 days 00:59:38 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 2 weeks for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 4 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 25 22:29:32 Elrond: well, you can convince matchbox to overlap the docks, yes Jan 25 22:29:40 full screen is probably important for SDL stuff Jan 25 22:29:58 I want my mapp fullscreen. ;o) Jan 25 22:30:06 yesyes, give me my full screen video (even if it's crappy due to cpu limitations) Jan 25 22:30:12 heh Jan 25 22:30:12 Do you have SDL ported to it? Jan 25 22:30:14 you will enjoy 1fps ? Jan 25 22:30:23 not much to port, really Jan 25 22:30:29 but we need to adapt it Jan 25 22:30:35 or else you won't get "back" from a SDL fullscreen app Jan 25 22:30:40 remember... no buttons Jan 25 22:30:52 righto Jan 25 22:30:58 maybe this would be a good place to use guestures? Jan 25 22:31:08 uh oh Jan 25 22:31:10 Non-glacial FPS will be a challange. But hey, that's the fun of it. Jan 25 22:31:10 "guesture" Jan 25 22:31:12 have fun teaching that to x11 Jan 25 22:31:12 nice word Jan 25 22:31:25 to get back from sdl full screen Jan 25 22:31:30 So, if I give the window manager the hint maximise - will it fot between the top menu and the status bar ? Jan 25 22:31:44 or overlap the whole thing? Jan 25 22:32:07 Morgret, would be easier if the hw could scale evenjust a qvga fb onto the full screen... Jan 25 22:32:24 noidd: you will be able to try all that in Xoo soon Jan 25 22:32:30 dunno exactly Jan 25 22:32:40 or check matchbox now Jan 25 22:32:41 "Xoo"? Jan 25 22:32:47 Xoo is my preferred devel tool atm. Jan 25 22:32:54 "poor man's device emulator" Jan 25 22:32:57 see o-hand / projectx Jan 25 22:32:59 projects, even Jan 25 22:33:58 mickeyl: would it be possible to teache gestures to sdl, instead of x11? Jan 25 22:34:10 are you writing in native and then cross-compile Jan 25 22:34:38 or using an arm emulator? Jan 25 22:34:38 yeah Jan 25 22:34:43 both Jan 25 22:34:48 regularly using qemu Jan 25 22:34:51 most of the time using xoo Jan 25 22:34:53 on x86 Jan 25 22:34:58 tchuladdiass: no idea, frankly Jan 25 22:35:19 I've not settled on one method over the other yet Jan 25 22:35:50 heh, 'ask mickeyl' hour. :) Jan 25 22:35:51 I was going to ask if there's an openmoko emulator yet Jan 25 22:35:55 * mjr is skeptical about teaching sdl gestures in a sane manner... Jan 25 22:36:07 stefan_schmidt: indeed. i almost have no chance to do some developmet :D Jan 25 22:36:32 * mickeyl doing stupid fighting against build problems atm. Jan 25 22:36:33 don't let sean hear you say that :-P Jan 25 22:36:39 *cough* Jan 25 22:36:59 I'm guessing sean doesn't hang out here because he knows he's going to be barraged with questions that he doesn't want (or can't) answer :-) Jan 25 22:37:08 hmm... it's not exactly easy to come up with something that doesn't get annoying fast when it comes out of a telephone speaker :-P Jan 25 22:37:17 Just found xoo-0.7 in Portage Jan 25 22:37:42 wansti, I had an ice-cream truck ring tone once, because that one doesn't _get_ annoying Jan 25 22:37:51 there is a neo1973 skin on the un-official wiki Jan 25 22:37:56 for xoo Jan 25 22:38:18 sweet Jan 25 22:38:24 Morgret: If you like to look it like a neo use the skin: http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/OpenMoko/neo1973-xoo-device.tar.bz2 Jan 25 22:38:46 heh, guys you're to fast for me Jan 25 22:39:02 wansti: indeed. Jan 25 22:39:20 the best sound i ever heard from a phone is the alarm tone on the new sony ericsson k800i Jan 25 22:39:28 it's so sweet on the ears Jan 25 22:39:35 i almost use it regularly instead of my old alarm clock Jan 25 22:39:54 The most useless ringtone ever is on a blackberry Jan 25 22:40:01 we use them on-call here at Time Warner Jan 25 22:40:11 and it rings twice and then goes silent for the rest of the ring Jan 25 22:40:22 useless for waking up an on-call UNIX geek Jan 25 22:41:14 Oh cool, thanks stefan, I'll grab that in a bit Jan 25 22:41:22 * Elrond has some weak blackberry aversion ;) Jan 25 22:41:41 lol mjr Jan 25 22:41:51 * PirateHead has a button aversion. The more buttons, the worse. Jan 25 22:42:30 PirateHead - Some buttons are good. It makes it easy for me to andswer the phone without looking at it. :) Jan 25 22:43:47 And I'd like the lower button on the face of the thing to be a stick. Jan 25 22:43:51 5-way. Jan 25 22:44:11 I'm used to 80 buttons on my Nokia Communicator ... just 2 buttons is going to be a challange ;-) Jan 25 22:44:46 yeah Jan 25 22:44:48 and tbh Jan 25 22:44:49 i don't like it Jan 25 22:44:56 tbh? Jan 25 22:44:59 to be honest Jan 25 22:45:01 but two buttons makes it very efficient : you can have one labelled "Go Away" and the other "I'm Busy" :) Jan 25 22:45:01 Ahh. Jan 25 22:45:04 i like the feel of real keys Jan 25 22:45:17 today i played wii Jan 25 22:45:30 and they have a vibrator in the controllers which is active if you point over a button Jan 25 22:45:32 i like that Jan 25 22:45:33 mickeyl: Great toy Jan 25 22:45:37 but i'm afraid it kills battery life Jan 25 22:45:42 Neo#2 should have 3 accelerometers :P Jan 25 22:45:43 I start to feel outdated with all your tlas... ;) Jan 25 22:45:45 (so said the low level guy) Jan 25 22:45:54 It's probably cheaper to electrocute the user. Jan 25 22:45:58 Powerwise. Jan 25 22:46:02 heh Jan 25 22:46:12 Well - tingle. Jan 25 22:46:26 Could be a killer app. Jan 25 22:46:32 lol Jan 25 22:46:49 mickeyl: so the next rev needs big caps and inductive energy transmission Jan 25 22:47:04 yeeeah Jan 25 22:47:07 i make sure it does Jan 25 22:47:08 neo_v2 with electro-chocker, so you can go in the night to the parking house. Yes. ;) Jan 25 22:47:12 (if i'm going to be involved...) Jan 25 22:47:23 which reminds me, mickeyl, if one hooks up a bt keyboard, will your default apps take input from that too, or should that be a todo? :] Jan 25 22:47:28 actually - if I had a choice of any additional sensor on Neov2 it would be a fingerprint sensor. Jan 25 22:47:31 mickeyl: i mean the wii :) Jan 25 22:47:34 mjr: definitly a todo. but we want that! Jan 25 22:47:40 xorAxAx: oh right :) Jan 25 22:47:41 Fingerprint sensors done right are interesting. Jan 25 22:47:41 Yep. Wifi, a whole row of buttons, 3 accelometers, inductive charging, and an espresso fitting. Jan 25 22:47:43 Forgot locking your phone with a pin number ... Jan 25 22:47:50 They can do a joystick Jan 25 22:47:50 Morgret: lol Jan 25 22:48:07 you just read the sensor like an optical mouse using the finger as a 'surface' Jan 25 22:48:08 vga output too please Jan 25 22:48:14 ah well, sleep now, g'work day ;) Jan 25 22:48:15 You could even switch profiles depending on the user who touches the phone Jan 25 22:48:23 swicth email accts, calenders etc Jan 25 22:48:29 Also, you can have per-finger switching. Jan 25 22:48:32 noidd: thats some good arguments Jan 25 22:48:42 sleeping is a good idea Jan 25 22:48:43 Graphics can be done via USB, no need for VGA port. Too big anyway Jan 25 22:48:46 g'night guys Jan 25 22:48:47 Hell - I could use my left index for personal and my middle finger for business :-D Jan 25 22:48:59 later mickeyl Jan 25 22:49:07 I suppose it does open the door to social GPS based games.. I know some of the gps devices have a "snake" like game, what if you had two players and player one had to guide player two around a virtual maze with the location of player two being determinded by GPS Jan 25 22:49:12 Morgret: what about my printer? it;s parralel port only Jan 25 22:49:14 ;) Jan 25 22:49:22 variant: Bluetooth Jan 25 22:49:31 noidd - DNA detectors, like in all those scifi movies. ;o) Jan 25 22:49:33 RevTig: Cliffs = lawsuits. Jan 25 22:50:07 Elrond: DNA detectors don't differenciate between fingers. Jan 25 22:50:15 SpeedEvil, :) "Do not use within 500m of anything you can fall into, stumble onto or end up in a legally binding contract with Jan 25 22:50:16 :) Jan 25 22:50:26 haha RevTig - that's hillariuos Jan 25 22:50:31 back tomorrow Jan 25 22:50:33 Wave. Jan 25 22:50:35 y'all have a good evening Jan 25 22:50:40 night night :) Jan 25 22:50:41 cya Jan 25 22:55:41 right night all. Jan 25 22:57:16 Huh. Everyone running away. Jan 25 22:57:25 And I still haven't got a handheld gps. ;) Jan 25 22:57:44 You know, with the rate of change of technology, by the time of release of #2, it's going to have to have a high res screen and 3D acceleration. All the pundits are saying interactive is the future of mobile tech. Jan 25 22:58:43 http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0019680/tmp/sms_gm015.ogg Jan 25 22:58:53 very simple and easy on the ears :-) Jan 25 23:01:45 wansti: Not bad. A little bit to 'church' for me. :) Jan 25 23:03:32 heh Jan 25 23:08:50 one could run that through a distortion filter to get a c64 version of sms_gm015.ogg :) Jan 25 23:09:15 xkr47: a mobile phone speaker is a perfectly good distortion filter :-P Jan 25 23:09:24 :D Jan 25 23:17:31 wansti: what a truely awfull message tone Jan 25 23:17:33 :P Jan 25 23:20:42 variant: still trying out different things Jan 25 23:21:04 at this early stage, even destructive criticism is helpful :-P Jan 25 23:21:39 wansti: that ring tone would make me smash rather than read.. Jan 25 23:21:40 :) Jan 25 23:22:09 depending on the contents of the SMS, you might thank me for that later :-) Jan 25 23:51:49 counter Jan 25 23:51:50 2 weeks, 1 day 23:37:15 for source availability and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 26 00:53:33 whoa the counter works Jan 26 00:59:36 re Jan 26 01:00:20 its taking all my self control not to reply to that flame. Jan 26 01:01:35 wb Jan 26 01:01:46 thanks, colloquy froze Jan 26 01:02:35 this is actuallu the first time I've used my palm for irc Jan 26 01:02:45 cool Jan 26 01:02:47 I used my zaurus a thousand times. Jan 26 01:03:26 I'm running sound for a show Jan 26 01:03:38 so I'm ircing between sound cues Jan 26 02:20:06 counter Jan 26 02:20:06 2 weeks, 1 day 21:08:58 for source for all and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 26 02:25:07 counter Jan 26 02:25:07 2 weeks, 1 day 21:03:56 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11) Jan 26 02:51:30 * rwhitby celebrates Australia Day! Jan 26 02:52:59 down under! Jan 26 02:53:48 * rwhitby also starts an OpenMoko blog at www.rwhitby.net **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jan 26 02:59:59 2007