**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jan 27 02:59:58 2007 Jan 27 03:47:24 counter Jan 27 03:47:25 2 weeks 19:41:32 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 27 06:12:41 good thing that mass marked release date is at September, now people hopefully review it as developers device Jan 27 06:25:53 interest keeps increasing: Jan 27 06:25:56 nick count records: 106 2006-12-04; 108 2006-12-07; 109 2006-12-12; 114 2006-12-13; 116 2006-12-20; 134 2007-01-11; 141 2007-01-12; 143 2007-01-13; 157 2007-01-15; 163 2007-01-16 ; 182 2007-01-17; 185 2007-01-19 ; 197 2007-01-20 ; 201 2007-01-21; 205 2007-01-22; 206 2007-01-23; 211 2007-01-25; 215 2007-01-26 Jan 27 06:30:52 hell yeah! aloril Jan 27 06:31:41 * aloril wonders what it will be like once source is released and especially any developer can buy device Jan 27 06:31:43 counter Jan 27 06:31:43 2 weeks 16:57:13 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 27 06:33:08 just one Q can i use this in the us? and on what systems Jan 27 06:37:17 loft306: it should be usable on any gsm network Jan 27 06:37:34 kool Jan 27 06:37:53 cingular, tmobile are the big gsm providers in the us Jan 27 06:38:05 now be thinking trf to tell them that Jan 27 06:38:27 *try Jan 27 06:38:49 nn bed Jan 27 06:38:59 long day Jan 27 06:39:03 :) Jan 27 08:05:09 hello Jan 27 08:05:37 yo Jan 27 10:02:17 I'm wondering about using the Neo without a sim-card... Jan 27 10:02:34 Like as a gps, or notebook, or calendar or for some fun game Jan 27 10:02:44 CM: dont see a problem with that Jan 27 10:02:50 can't say for sure, not being a developer, but can't see why not Jan 27 10:03:21 I don't think it should be a problem either, but what about the agps for instance? Jan 27 10:03:32 Does that require that you have a sim-card? Jan 27 10:09:00 CM - The "a" in agps can be disabled, AFAIK. Jan 27 10:12:49 yeah, the chip can reportedly work without assistance Jan 27 10:12:57 just takes a bit longer to get the initial fix Jan 27 10:13:18 Most of us wont care, I guess. :) Jan 27 10:13:30 yeah Jan 27 10:14:05 And I guess, when it has the first fix without assistance, it will get the next fix (when you leave the tunnel) faster. :) Jan 27 10:14:22 yes, then you already have the relevant ephemeris data Jan 27 10:14:57 So mum and dad wont notice the missing A probably. :) Jan 27 10:15:28 For privacy reasons, I'd even commend to disable it by default. But that's me. Jan 27 10:15:39 yes Jan 27 10:15:46 I think me too Jan 27 10:16:23 But most mums and dads don't care too much for that sort of privacy. ;o) Jan 27 10:17:16 Or they assume, that it's all perfect. (in which case my suggested default would be the right thing.) Jan 27 10:17:23 also, if I've understood correctly, if you get fixes like every 20 minutes or so, the ephemeris data should be kept up-to-date without assistance, keeping it "hot" for you... Jan 27 10:17:57 but I may be wrong in that it would automatically get the new data along with a new fix Jan 27 10:18:09 should be doable with some reasonable interval still Jan 27 10:18:09 The local ephemeris-data is valid for about two hours, I hear. Jan 27 10:18:17 So every half hour an update is lots. :) Jan 27 10:18:54 Would be interesting to see how accurate it is to measure speed Jan 27 10:19:09 Hey, yeah. Jan 27 10:19:45 My friend intends to buy a sirfIII, if I get the phone, I can do some comparison. ;) Jan 27 10:19:54 :) Jan 27 10:24:12 I've got a SIRF-III receiver -- HOLUX GPSlim236 Jan 27 10:29:51 $GPGGA,110046.000,5148.1103,N,00020.2703,W,1,05,1.8,115.7,M,47.0,M,,0000*4E Jan 27 10:30:03 11:01:00 UTC, 27/01/2007, lat 51deg 48m 06.6360s N, long 000deg 20m 16.2300s W, alt 200.47 Jan 27 10:30:05 :P Jan 27 10:30:22 I assume that the OM's GPS will use NMEA format too. Jan 27 10:31:45 Morgret - We all hope so. Jan 27 10:32:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gps#Navigation_signals Jan 27 10:32:25 If it output's NMEA, why does it need the proprietary gpsd ? Jan 27 10:32:37 Or am i now confusing things :) Jan 27 10:32:39 Only for the assist, which is optional Jan 27 10:32:42 That sounds like one needs 12 minutes to get a full ephemeris/almanac. Jan 27 10:32:44 ah Jan 27 10:32:52 Morgret, hmh, afaik it needs it anyway? Jan 27 10:33:19 I think, it needs it anyway, as most of the calculations happen in the gpsd. :-| Jan 27 10:33:37 the communication protocol to the gps chip is proprietary, it seems, and the gps daemon does at least some of the gps computation, is my impression Jan 27 10:33:40 yeah Jan 27 10:33:54 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000537.html Jan 27 10:34:01 mjr: don't think so, but don't quote me. :P I merely read a few articles on it when I got my GPSlim236 and begun scripting it. Jan 27 10:34:04 the question is rather the output format of the agps daemon, but that can be munged... Jan 27 10:34:46 anyway, props to anyone who manages to reverse-engineer the chip protocol and stick a free daemon behind it ;P Jan 27 10:36:07 I thought we won't have access to the chip, only to the serial interface. Jan 27 10:36:27 correct Jan 27 10:36:36 perhaps I should've said "in front of it" Jan 27 10:37:22 Well there's nothing to reverse engineer in the GPS then. :-) Jan 27 10:37:50 anyway, chip communicates with proprietary agps daemon doing most of the calculations, communications protocol secret, so you need to reverse-engineer the protocol in order to replace the proprietary daemon that resides on the main soc Jan 27 10:37:59 incorrect, see above Jan 27 10:38:34 Yeah but that's not GPS. That's AGPS. There's nothing in the GPS NMEA stream to reverse engineer, it's fully documented. Jan 27 10:38:48 Morgret: he's saying it's not NMEA Jan 27 10:38:55 Ah Jan 27 10:38:58 the "A" there doesn't really mean much Jan 27 10:39:15 it just means that the daemon can get ephemeris data from the network in addition to the gps chip Jan 27 10:39:47 Fine, but it's unrelated to the GPS function ... it just extends it. Jan 27 10:40:07 Right. Jan 27 10:40:08 correct, but the confusion here seems to be that the agps daemon only does the "A" bit Jan 27 10:40:12 it doesn't Jan 27 10:40:15 But even without A, we need the daemon. Jan 27 10:40:30 Right. Jan 27 10:41:31 Well if it's the agpsd daemon that does the conversion of the GPS output into NMEA, then what we need to do first is to convert the output stream from the GPS into NMEA ourselves, which probably verges on the trivial. Jan 27 10:42:01 Worrying about the assist is secondary to being able to use our GPS peripheral. Jan 27 10:42:32 I don't know much about GPS, but I agree it doesn't _seem_ it should be very complicated, unless the chip manufacturer has deliberately obfuscated things (and then one can debug the daemon) Jan 27 10:42:44 Well, yes. We need to understand the proprietary protocol for that. Jan 27 10:42:48 and yes, the A bit is nonessential Jan 27 10:43:34 Well FIC are giving us a gadget with fully documented interfaces. They've always said that. So, the stream coming out of the GPS will be a known quantity. Jan 27 10:43:37 A plain chip doing nmea would have been better IMHO. Jan 27 10:44:08 Morgret - It will go through "our" kernel to userspace. So we surely have the stream. Jan 27 10:44:13 (though if one manages to engineer a GPS daemon replacement that parses the proprietary format and does the GPS computation, it should be really trivial to get the assist data in, assuming a known and usable ephemeris source) Jan 27 10:44:42 Elrond, would have, but I'm sure there were other factors in play... Jan 27 10:45:37 mjr: indeed, from first principles. I don't really care much for reverse engineering a proprietary blob. It's not rocket science anyway, just orbital mechanics. :P Jan 27 10:45:37 mjr - At some time, I'd be curious on those other factors. Jan 27 10:46:42 Morgret - global locate might have obfuscated it. Then we're in the middle of big style reverse engeneering. ;) Jan 27 10:46:51 probably to do with the non-moko phone fic are doing Jan 27 10:46:54 In fact, I'd guess that after a few months, we'll have the best GPS decoder around outside the forces :P Jan 27 10:47:24 *G* Jan 27 10:47:33 Elrond, well, it's not _that_ big a deal to see what a program does to an input stream to de-munge it Jan 27 10:47:48 Yeah, but clean-room is better Jan 27 10:47:53 sure, it would make it more difficult, but "big style", nah... Jan 27 10:48:15 mjr - clean room. ;) That's just plain work. Jan 27 10:48:20 Morgret, you can still do clean-room, it just means that the guy looking into the daemon writes the protocol spec but doesn't program the replacement Jan 27 10:48:45 Right. It's just work. Jan 27 10:49:01 Btw, what is the GPS chip in the device? I've got tons of references from when I was poking around with my 236. Jan 27 10:49:14 whatwasit, some Hammerhead thingy Jan 27 10:49:26 yes, Global Locate Hammerhead Jan 27 10:49:31 Morgret - A "global locate" one. (yes, the company, that was sued by sirf ;o) ) Jan 27 10:49:39 Hehe Jan 27 10:50:18 You've gotta take lawyers with a pinch of salt. And watch out for the arsenic. Jan 27 10:50:22 s/was/is being/ # I think. Jan 27 10:50:42 (mind you, I'm talking lightly about the reverse-engineering, but I won't be the one doing it ;] ) Jan 27 10:51:02 mjr - tsts ;) Jan 27 10:51:15 dunno much about gps and time is limited Jan 27 10:57:29 I just thought a good program feature. conversation view for text messaging Jan 27 11:05:00 hello! does anyone have any word on the release date for Neo1973? Jan 27 11:05:18 counter Jan 27 11:05:18 2 weeks 12:23:36 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 27 11:06:22 s/counter/counter strike/ Jan 27 11:06:22 ynezz meant: counter strike Jan 27 11:07:28 thanks. Jan 27 11:10:57 the masses seem to be awakening Jan 27 11:11:04 hi Jan 27 11:11:12 hi Jan 27 11:15:41 Guys, is it the Hammerhead (from 2005), or the Hammerhead II (improved 2007 device)? Jan 27 11:16:08 I doubt it's the 2007 one since Neo1973 has been in the works from last year... Jan 27 11:16:43 Aye, although I don't know whether 2007 is the date of release of just date of latest docs Jan 27 11:21:48 Morgret - BTW: Does you sirf III output ephemeral data via the some vendor NMEA? (so that one can display funky pictures, which satelite is where on the sky?) ;) Jan 27 11:56:25 Elrond: sorry, was still trying to find data on the Hammerhead. Only found useless product briefs so far. Um, my Holux GPSlim236 is just a pure receiver, no UI. I'll get you a URL Jan 27 11:58:39 http://www.holux-uk.com/Products/gpslim236/index.shtml Jan 27 12:01:20 (NMEA's just the comms protocol -- see Wikipedia entry) Jan 27 12:02:06 That first line I posted coming outof my GPS was in NMEA format: Jan 27 12:02:19 $GPGGA,110046.000,5148.1103,N,00020.2703,W,1,05,1.8,115.7,M,47.0,M,,0000*4E Jan 27 12:04:32 And the answer is yes, it's all there in the output. The line I showed is just one type, of many kinds that are in the stream. Jan 27 12:05:05 I imagine there's one per satellite, for starters. Jan 27 12:11:51 12:41:13 UTC, 27/01/2007, lat 51deg 48m 06.6960s N, long 000deg 20m 16.3620s W, alt 202.63 Jan 27 12:11:54 12:40:54 UTC, 27/01/2007, lat 51deg 48m 06.8280s N, long 000deg 20m 16.3740s W, alt 18.12 Jan 27 12:12:00 Last field .... Jan 27 12:12:27 Considering that my altitude is actually 152m ... that's kind of shabby. I sure hope the Hammerhead is better. Jan 27 12:12:30 That is just the Positional information. Jan 27 12:12:36 Yep Jan 27 12:12:49 I've not decoded the other types of output. Jan 27 12:13:02 I think, there were some almanac-NMEA messages... but I haven't read too much on it either. Jan 27 12:13:09 Ahh. :) Jan 27 12:14:18 Makes for an accurate clock though :P Jan 27 12:15:06 I'm looking forward to mapping some towns for OpenStreetMap with the OM. Jan 27 12:15:26 Yeah. That's my main interest in the OM ;) Jan 27 12:15:43 Before I was looking at a garmin gpsmap60cx. ;) Jan 27 12:16:45 I've not looked at any actually. I only bought the Holux because I wanted to play with Bluetooth programming :-) Jan 27 12:17:16 hehe :) Jan 27 12:17:58 That garmin thing is a rugged outdoor thingy. Feels good in my hands and I don' have the impression, I can break it quickly. ;) Jan 27 12:18:05 OpenStreetMap cover something other then UK? Jan 27 12:18:18 Whole planet Jan 27 12:18:27 hrw - Yes, central europe is getting better each day. Jan 27 12:18:33 Don't think it does Mars, but I'm sure it will one day ;-) Jan 27 12:18:54 hrw - But you can add data for any area. Even baghdad is being worked on. Jan 27 12:19:14 Well, mars does not fit in wgs84 ;o) Jan 27 12:20:32 Bah, WGS84 is antique ... should use the Galactic Geodetic System Jan 27 12:21:11 ;o) Jan 27 12:21:11 Using a suitably expanded meaning of the prefix "Geo" .... Jan 27 12:22:17 BTW mom/dad: We probably will need to make it play nice with *ugg* windows. Jan 27 12:22:54 You don't *need* to program Bluetooth to get at the NMEA stream btw .... "cat /dev/rfcomm1" will do nicely :-) Jan 27 12:24:20 Just let the Windows shareware developers do their usual thing ... I'm sure a million proggies will appear for that platform. Jan 27 12:24:36 Doesn't interest me anyway Jan 27 12:24:53 ewww shareware Jan 27 12:25:18 Aye, very ewww. Jan 27 12:27:23 Oddly though, we're in a minority considering it ewww. The majority consider us odd in allowing only source code to enter our machines. Jan 27 12:28:09 Right. Jan 27 12:28:13 even as a linux user i find it odd to use sources Jan 27 12:28:19 as a bsd user i dont ;) Jan 27 12:28:29 Hehe Jan 27 12:28:30 I had to overcome all sorts of things to get me to install ewwww skype for work. ;) Jan 27 12:28:54 all i had to do was emerge skype Jan 27 12:29:17 Mortimus - Which downloads a binary only thing, right? Jan 27 12:29:17 Yup, gentoo here as well Jan 27 12:30:13 what got you into gentoo? Jan 27 12:30:48 Elrond: yep, as Skype is closed Jan 27 12:30:54 for me it was the kick ass package manager Jan 27 12:31:15 i still find ports better than portage Jan 27 12:31:28 all this masking business is just weird Jan 27 12:31:53 I'm happy with apt / dpkg-buildpackage. ;) Jan 27 12:32:02 yeah me too Jan 27 12:32:03 masking == stable Jan 27 12:32:13 tho i very rarely use buildpackage Jan 27 12:32:14 Mortimus: it's just the easiest distro to use, once installed. No dependency hell like with RPMs etc, since libs can't ever get out of sync. Jan 27 12:32:28 same with deb Jan 27 12:32:34 only you dont compile all the time Jan 27 12:33:26 Heh, funny, seeing as my main experiences with dependency hell was actually on Debian, not with RPMs. :P But I'm sure it's better now, that was many years ago. Jan 27 12:33:50 as long as you stick to ubuntu's own servers its fine Jan 27 12:33:53 trouble starts with external stuff Jan 27 12:34:13 another annoying thing is the kernels on the other flavors, EVERYTHING is hotplug'ed Jan 27 12:34:14 But there is *always* external stuff! Jan 27 12:34:36 portage overlays :) Jan 27 12:34:41 mhh only musicbrainz for me Jan 27 12:34:46 Indeed Jan 27 12:35:51 is linux a "unix-type"? Jan 27 12:36:09 i have a book that refers to linux as that Jan 27 12:36:40 Yeah, in practice. Quibbling about the terms is for lawyers. We all know exactly what we mean by it. Jan 27 12:37:40 so bonus points for the first gentooMoKo distro for Neo :-) Jan 27 12:37:53 XorA - *lol* Jan 27 12:38:37 Well there's Gentoo Slug, and that comes off OE as well, so I assume we'll have a GentooMoko pretty soon. Jan 27 12:39:08 * buz waits for Mubuntu Jan 27 12:39:18 However, native emerges on the Neo would not be a good idea Jan 27 12:39:46 buz what are the alternatives for system v init on bsd? Jan 27 12:40:22 mhh freebsd doesnt use runlevels really Jan 27 12:40:24 I very much doubt if Firefox would finish emerging on the phone native before the flash memory gets bit-rot from rising entropy. Jan 27 12:40:25 only single user and multi user Jan 27 12:40:33 Mortimus - You mean with all those hundred new init-replacements out there? ;o) Jan 27 12:40:34 i remember finding a portage like binary distro Jan 27 12:40:45 most bsd packages exist as binaries Jan 27 12:40:56 its just easier to install it from sources Jan 27 12:41:05 i know of 3 ish Jan 27 12:41:37 and as for multi user, bsd simply uses rc.d for that Jan 27 12:41:46 s/init-replacements/\& and daemon-startup-frameworks/ Jan 27 12:41:47 Elrond meant: Mortimus - You mean with all those hundred new \& and daemon-startup-frameworks out there? ;o) Jan 27 12:42:00 Morgret: there is Zaurus Gentoo as well Jan 27 12:42:17 So still no way of stopping and starting subsystems on *BSD without modifying the filestore? Jan 27 12:42:27 apt: botsnack Jan 27 12:42:27 aw, gee, Elrond Jan 27 12:42:46 Morgret: what do you mean Jan 27 12:43:15 Morgret - bsd uses a little sysv-style init for ports. ;) Jan 27 12:43:26 Morgret - /usr/local/etc/*.d ;o) Jan 27 12:43:32 ... at least, I hear so. Jan 27 12:43:43 <-- gets some food. Jan 27 12:44:28 buz: say you want to stop networking ... can do you do it without modifying any files? Didn't used to be able to, which is why it wasn't much use in many live service situations where messing with the fs was verbotten. Jan 27 12:44:40 ifconfig down Jan 27 12:44:44 ifconfig down Jan 27 12:44:52 That's not the whole service Jan 27 12:45:18 ? Jan 27 12:45:35 ifconfig down resets route,s so yes it does Jan 27 12:45:56 what else do you think runs when you start a networking device Jan 27 12:47:23 A million things, lol. Changing an individual interface is not the same things as bringing down a complete sybsystem :P Jan 27 12:47:47 hi koen Jan 27 12:48:13 Morgret: /etc/rc.d/netif stop might be what you are after Jan 27 12:48:23 hey hrw Jan 27 12:49:07 hadara: maybe. But I'm talking generically .... there are hundreds of subsystems that one starts/stops. Jan 27 12:50:04 not sure why one would want that Jan 27 12:50:30 And starting/stopping them all in the same generic manner makes life much easier for the sysadmin. Jan 27 12:50:33 hadara: /etc/init.d/netif in openmoko Jan 27 12:50:54 you can restart nearly all daemons with their respective rc.d scripts Jan 27 12:52:12 Hehe, I see nothing's changed then in *BSD circles. The request is still met with "I can't see why you'd want that." This is why *BSD doesn't get traction in some circles. Instead of responding to needs, it's directed in a few areas (this is the traditional one) by religion. Jan 27 12:52:28 hmm Jan 27 12:52:44 what _are_ you trying to achieve ? Jan 27 12:52:45 stop smashing unix Jan 27 12:52:57 its like the base of the internets Jan 27 12:53:33 I have administrated 20+ fbsd boxes for 6+ years and not once have I used network start/stop scripts so yes I don't just know why would you want that Jan 27 12:53:40 but the scripts do exist Jan 27 12:53:44 if you want to use them Jan 27 12:54:02 Different people have different reqs. Jan 27 12:54:32 on boot /etc/netstart is calles that just calls ~20 scripts under /etc/rc.d/ with start argument Jan 27 12:55:25 hadara: ah well there ya go, the BSDs have put in that kind of scheme too. Not surprised. Jan 27 12:55:26 doing a stop would just require change of argument so I don't see what's wrong... the functionality is there, it's just that bsd people don't seem to use that particular way of doing things for one reason or another Jan 27 12:56:52 the unix kernel is still closed right? Jan 27 12:57:04 Mortimus: which unix? Jan 27 12:57:19 LOL, which Unix kernel? Solaris is Unix. Jan 27 12:58:45 i read somewhere that a company that wishes to modify the kernel source has to licence it from from company Jan 27 12:59:07 then ask a different company to verify the unix name Jan 27 12:59:22 For most Unixes, yeah. But not OpenSolaris Jan 27 12:59:28 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-January/000014.html Jan 27 13:00:37 only 2 weeks left :) Jan 27 13:00:59 I should work on canceling my plan Jan 27 13:01:04 for free Jan 27 13:01:33 Ah, interesting post, tnx koen Jan 27 13:01:59 Morgret: note that it doesn't work as-is, since OE still lacks the kernel and the sjf2410 thing Jan 27 13:02:20 sjf? Jan 27 13:02:20 k Jan 27 13:02:24 and it's a few months old Jan 27 13:02:34 S3C2410 Jan 27 13:02:38 hrw: probably some tool to add a header for the flasher tool Jan 27 13:03:12 EXTRA_IMAGEDEPENDS += "sjf2410-linux-native" <- that one Jan 27 13:04:36 koen, do we have the stream spec for the Hammerhead PMB 2520? Oh and, what's our interface to the chip? Jan 27 13:04:55 Morgret: not that I know off Jan 27 13:05:00 there was some pdf doc somewhere Jan 27 13:05:20 I've only found useless product briefs so far. Jan 27 13:06:25 flasher tool: How geekproof is the neo? ;) Jan 27 13:07:47 ah.. I see Jan 27 13:07:47 koen_: I'm curious does phase0 devs will get phone before fosdem.. Jan 27 13:07:47 SJF2410 can program SMDK2410 flash memory Jan 27 13:07:47 http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/jikorhon/gp32/dl/sjf2410_v4_jtag_schema.pdf Jan 27 13:07:48 so it is not needed for most of devs Jan 27 13:07:49 its jtag tool Jan 27 13:07:55 argh.. it need parallel port... Jan 27 13:08:02 * hrw want USB JTAG cable Jan 27 13:08:13 hrw: if they can't make it, they could hand them out at fosdem Jan 27 13:08:51 that test went horribly Jan 27 13:08:51 (the neo's, not the jtag cables) Jan 27 13:50:40 OK, I give up trying to find the datasheet on the Hammerhead 2520 GPS chip. The only thing that Infineon and Global Locate seem to provide is the glossy marketroid brochures. Jan 27 13:51:49 FIC must have the datasheet though, as they designed the chip into the Neo. Jan 27 13:52:22 Generally, for hard to use chips - mobile, gps, ... it can be the case that there is no way to get datasheets without talking to them. Jan 27 13:53:12 You may have to sign stuff, or convince them that you're a potential volume purchaser - as they are going to likely have to support you with valuable engineer time, and it's not worth it for onesy-twoesy purchasers. Jan 27 13:53:51 Depends on the company. Global Locate's website is just a pure glossy thing for managers to look at, so unhelpful for engineering. But plenty of companies do a full documentation job, with full engineering datasheet PDFs for every chip. Jan 27 13:55:29 Like Samsung say, for the S3C2410 in the OM. We have the works. Jan 27 13:56:01 However, for example, TI Jan 27 13:56:10 They do docs for 99.9% of their stuff. Jan 27 13:56:19 But not their 'all in one chip' GSM phone. Jan 27 13:56:30 It's just a couple of pages of PDF. Jan 27 13:56:35 Aha, not looked. Jan 27 13:56:55 mickeyl: did I already show you http://www.burtonini.com/blog/computers/lemonade-2007-01-23-13-10?showcomments=yes ? Jan 27 14:14:43 LOL, I'm finding Global Locate on the shit list of various GPS and PDA blogs and forums ... apparently totally unhelpful. I guess FIC managed to be more pursuasive, hehe. Jan 27 14:15:12 $$$ speak Jan 27 14:15:17 Aye Jan 27 14:15:21 koen: yeah, thanks. I wonder whether this may be any better than tinymail Jan 27 14:23:22 Morgret - Let me guess, the only thing not on the shit list, are nmea talking devices? ;) Jan 27 14:23:55 'We have a product that we want to build 50000 of with your chip' tends to get more docs than someone with one in a device mailing. Jan 27 14:24:45 SpeedEvil - Yep. Just it doesn't help us. ;) Jan 27 14:25:02 counter Jan 27 14:25:03 2 weeks 09:03:51 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 27 14:25:48 So in about 2 weeks + shipping, we know more about the gps cjip, hopefully. :) Jan 27 14:26:33 neo-strace ;) Jan 27 14:27:06 the gps chip. wouldn't it be nearly useless if there is no map? Jan 27 14:27:15 Not quite. Jan 27 14:27:22 You can pull maps from gmaps Jan 27 14:28:14 I forgot to kill a process I started that fetched a google maps tile a second around my local location - I found out when I ran out of disk space. Jan 27 14:28:52 sadly i still cant find the map of HK for free, but only from google map Jan 27 14:28:52 However, getting map tiles for a journey isn't too bad. Jan 27 14:29:08 Free maps are _very_ uncommon. Jan 27 14:29:23 As they are expensive datasets to make. Jan 27 14:30:41 I wonder how much TomTom would want for a neo version. Jan 27 14:30:52 Elrond: don't know, didn't hang around there long enough to look for others, just focussing on Infineon/Global Locate. Jan 27 14:33:32 Oh, we're not talking about maps at this stage for the OM. We merely want to talk to the hardware that's provided, and that's ample for street logging to help out OpenStreetMaps, and for personal orienteering etc.. Jan 27 14:33:42 FICwont buy any maps for neo? Jan 27 14:34:04 If TomTom comes out with a Neo version, I would buy it in a heartbeat Jan 27 14:36:21 What software license (and link) would you reccommend if I 1) Want the ability for others to modify and use my code, provided they make a copy of the source available and 2) Doesn't restrict commercial usage. Jan 27 14:36:30 Hmm - that's not a horrible price - 80 quid. Jan 27 14:36:48 For most of europe in detailed maps on DVD, running on comparable devices. Jan 27 14:40:52 GPL works Jan 27 14:41:05 They can sell it as long as they provide source Jan 27 14:41:16 noidd, scanning countdown ? do you mean the javascript thing ?-) Jan 27 14:47:18 SpeedEvil: GPL specifically doesn't work - if they derive from it for a commercial app, the commercial app is forced to become free - and thus they won't do it. LGPL, on the other hand, or BSD might do it. However, I'm appealing to people who know more about licensing than I do. Jan 27 14:48:07 The free maps that Gpsdrive downloads work fine for around here, SE England. Not very detailed, but at least they exist. Jan 27 14:48:41 http://gpsdrive.kraftvoll.at/ Jan 27 14:51:10 rboehme: they can still sell it though.. Jan 27 14:56:22 noidd, one could maybe do some nice gallery with that whatwg thing.) Jan 27 15:24:33 The commercial app is not forced to become free - it's forced to provide source. Jan 27 15:25:06 SpeedEvil: + to purchasers Jan 27 15:25:06 Which may in some cases mean effectively the same thing. Jan 27 15:25:11 yes. Jan 27 15:25:18 you can still sell it though. Jan 27 15:26:29 you only have to give source to whoever you distribute to Jan 27 15:26:40 they, of course, can distribute it to everyone else Jan 27 16:21:48 There will undoubtedly be openness politics surrounding OpenMoko+Neo throughout their lives. AFAIAC though, this is between you and your conscience. I'd like everyone to support pure free software and nothing else ... but for me to coerce that view onto another would itself be both morally and practically indefensible. Jan 27 16:22:13 OM+Neo is (for me) a FOSS phone. It doesn't have to be so for everyone. Jan 27 16:22:41 My mom wouldn't understand the difference, as long as she didn't have to pay for the software Jan 27 16:23:07 Morgret: well, you can't technically prevent proprietary software without some kind of Anti-DRM ;) Jan 27 16:23:10 "Why would anyone want to see the code?" Some people... Jan 27 16:23:19 CM: then you didnt explain it well enough Jan 27 16:23:24 Aye :P and ditto. But I will buy OMs for the whole family. I won't be indoctrinating them. Jan 27 16:23:59 xorAxAx: Hehe, I agree I'm not the best one at explaining, but my mom isn't exactly tech-interested.. Jan 27 16:25:01 dottedmag: correct. And trying to do so is itself an abridgement of freedom. What's important is that we try to increase our OWN freedom. Going beyond that brings in dangers. Jan 27 16:25:33 * CM is allergic to DRM Jan 27 16:25:46 "YOU SHALL BE FREE" is a self-contraction :P Jan 27 16:26:45 CM: the difference is primarily non-technical Jan 27 16:27:00 CM: but i havent explained it to her either Jan 27 16:27:05 Hehe Jan 27 16:27:29 It's just like she doesn't see the point, as long as it doesn't cost money, how can it matter if you can get the code or not Jan 27 16:28:46 CM: thats easy to answer ... just sketch a few scenarios that would differently end in both worlds Jan 27 16:29:00 explain her what the weird buzzword vendor-lock-in means Jan 27 16:29:34 try to use RMS' weird analogy with recipes ... Jan 27 16:30:01 but don't say "if something goes wrong, I can fix it" Jan 27 16:30:19 jeez that renaissance guy is full of it Jan 27 16:30:33 I once had an argument about Windows with my sister (we're both adults), who had never heard about Linux or FOSS or anything like that. I was completely rational/calm+collected about it. Yet I realized later that I must have appeared as a total loon. Never again. People have to learn hard lessons by themselves, you can't teach it. Jan 27 16:31:08 i only get into that argument with either techies or libertarians Jan 27 16:31:17 the latter usually see the point Jan 27 16:31:28 Yep Jan 27 16:31:33 and the former at least technically get what i'm speaking about Jan 27 16:31:44 buz: unsubscribe from the community list, lowers your blood pressure Jan 27 16:32:24 i like my buzz of flaming Jan 27 16:32:27 but i should be learning Jan 27 16:33:04 The developers list is *awesome* Jan 27 16:33:15 Morgret: you dont have to suggest linux Jan 27 16:33:52 there are other projects on earth as well Jan 27 16:34:05 koen: I haven't even joined. I've been on too many MLs, you realize at some point that public discussions don't help. Jan 27 16:34:51 koen: I agree, no noise there :) Jan 27 16:34:56 Morgret: I continue to be amazed by laziness and apathy some people seem to posses Jan 27 16:35:09 i can even see why users wouldnt care if something is OSS Jan 27 16:35:19 i cant see why they wouldnt care that the FORMATS are open Jan 27 16:35:21 especially what would be called 'n00bs' by todays teenagers Jan 27 16:36:10 people are sheep, really Jan 27 16:36:24 And lazy Jan 27 16:36:38 buz: too bad you can't eat people and use their wool Jan 27 16:36:39 laziness is not necessarily bad Jan 27 16:36:48 at least not all kinds of laziness are Jan 27 16:36:53 nbd: it is when it wastes other people's time Jan 27 16:36:58 (e.g. mine) Jan 27 16:36:59 laziness is good for engineers if it causes them to do things right the first time Jan 27 16:36:59 guys, you need a technical solution to a social issue - get a working NUA Jan 27 16:37:03 buz: exactly Jan 27 16:37:16 smart lazy people are goo Jan 27 16:37:16 d Jan 27 16:37:27 That's more about being efficient Jan 27 16:37:27 they usually try to minimize work, not just avoid it at first Jan 27 16:37:35 too lazy to type, but not too lazy to think Jan 27 16:37:42 Using the best tools, don't duplicate work and so on Jan 27 16:37:43 lazy 'OMG GNU!!!' or lazy 'OMG WIFI!!!' people are bad Jan 27 16:37:46 proper laziness is about efficiency very much Jan 27 16:38:15 koen: not worried by laziness and apathy, they're neutral. The problem issue for me are those things that prevent projects going into higher gear, like fanboys and entrenchment. Neutral is fine. Jan 27 16:41:10 if laziness implies people will shut up, all the better Jan 27 16:41:17 :-) Jan 27 16:43:44 to avoid that sort of thing put "Strictly for development talk only" when the phone is actually available ;) Jan 27 16:43:52 in the topic* Jan 27 16:45:08 says lounge Jan 27 16:45:18 rather branch out to #openmoko-dev Jan 27 16:46:31 Let this channel remain a lounge, since #OpenMoko is where random people will come by default. But make new channels for dev and help with very strict charters. Jan 27 16:46:39 Hehe, you beat me to it Jan 27 16:46:41 agreed Jan 27 16:48:44 * CM dislikes debugging blas-atlas compile failures, failing after 3h.. Jan 27 16:49:56 Criticisms and way-out suggestions and even flames are good. Just not in the wrong place. Jan 27 16:50:14 CM: ouch Jan 27 16:51:36 counter Jan 27 16:51:36 2 weeks 06:37:17 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 27 16:51:39 :P Jan 27 16:51:45 I'm sure it's stuck. Jan 27 16:52:22 2weeks? good, i am looking forward to first feelings of neo Jan 27 16:52:47 Just follow the white rabbit ... Jan 27 16:55:00 I wonder whether some tech reviewer is included among the 50. At some point FIC will be seeding the magazines, inevitably. Jan 27 16:55:39 Probably not. Unless they are friendly already. Jan 27 16:55:59 fic will seed the magazines in september i guess Jan 27 16:56:02 Linux mags :-) There's a ton of them in UK Jan 27 16:56:07 You don't want marginally featured stuff going to reviewers that can say 'meh - works mostly'. Jan 27 16:56:19 yeah Jan 27 16:56:28 You want it going to reviewers that can legitimately go OMG - Ponies. Jan 27 16:56:36 Hahahaaha Jan 27 16:56:38 If it's got a stable management app in it. Jan 27 16:56:49 You reckon e¶e e æ þn µøðe Jan 27 16:57:17 Cripes, KVM's went potty Jan 27 16:57:55 You reckon FIC will be producing a cute pink model then? Ponies!!!!! Jan 27 16:59:13 Seriously, there have to be different coloured shells. I can't buy everyone in the family the same colour one for Xmas. Jan 27 16:59:41 I'd get murdered :P Jan 27 17:05:02 * SpeedEvil passes Morgret a selection of paints. Jan 27 17:05:41 Missing the 'exchangable shell' thing if you possibly can avoid missing it is a very bad idea. Jan 27 17:06:04 We _want_ mobile myspace on this thing. Jan 27 17:06:11 Or similar. Jan 27 18:23:28 Morgret: You could paint or carve or get it painted somewhere. Those services might bee a bit too expensive though. Jan 27 18:35:41 i'd love a brushed metal shell Jan 27 18:35:44 but that wont help RF Jan 27 18:36:17 hihi, rugged neo? ;) Jan 27 18:47:28 na, shiny Jan 27 18:47:32 shiny is always good Jan 27 18:50:31 hey, does anyone know how much the openmoko is going to cost when it comes out? Jan 27 18:51:03 350$ Jan 27 18:51:18 not bad... It looks awesome! Jan 27 18:51:32 i was reading about it in Linux Journal the other day Jan 27 18:53:38 oooooooh Jan 27 18:53:42 sean-mail :) Jan 27 18:53:52 * mickeyl grins Jan 27 18:53:56 yay! Jan 27 18:56:34 thanks for the sarcasm... It makes this channel very friendly! Jan 27 18:56:59 drizato: ? Jan 27 18:58:26 I remember reading that the device will run a proprietary GSM stack.... will the OS be Linux? Jan 27 19:00:13 no, probably some custom TI rt kernel Jan 27 19:00:18 koen: whats the news¿ Jan 27 19:00:18 So what are the requirements for shipping to germany? Jan 27 19:00:25 drizato: The OS on the GSM stack? I don't think so. Jan 27 19:00:48 XorA: Subject: Congratulations: You Have Won a Free Neo1973! Jan 27 19:00:58 koen: sorted Jan 27 19:01:15 I figured that the GSM stack would be a module used by the Linux Kernel Jan 27 19:01:26 no, it's on a separate chip Jan 27 19:01:53 drizato: you talk to the gsm module via serial commands Jan 27 19:01:56 * XorA didnt Jan 27 19:02:12 got it... thanks! Jan 27 19:02:35 I didn't either, those bastards. Only because I haven't done embedded development and didn't apply. Jan 27 19:02:52 so much for assumptions Jan 27 19:03:21 I'd still like to play around with one of these... Jan 27 19:04:32 mjr: maybe you win one later, and only need to pay the 350$ claiming fee Jan 27 19:04:55 gotta go take the wife shopping *yay* thanks for the info Jan 27 19:10:28 so they're already announcing who is getting a dev Neo? Jan 27 19:14:10 ajturner: not announcing, but sending mails to the devs Jan 27 19:14:20 koen: right, that's what I meant :) Jan 27 19:14:52 hrm, oh well - hopefully something comes through. Jan 27 19:15:09 I would really like to start playing with the location options: gps, gsm geoloc, etc. Jan 27 19:16:04 did they ever mention how many dev units will be shipped? Jan 27 19:16:12 50 or 100 iirc Jan 27 19:20:15 Well - you can just feed a normal GPS into your dev program. Jan 27 19:20:26 Bluetooth, ... Jan 27 19:21:05 well, I would like to know more of the specifics on the Neo Jan 27 19:21:20 ideas on how to integrate OpenStreetMap data, navigation Jan 27 19:21:31 geoblogging - local georss feeds :) Jan 27 19:21:42 That's all rather irrelevant to the neo. Jan 27 19:21:54 You have a GPS feed, and a 480*640 display. Jan 27 19:21:58 that reminds me.... Jan 27 19:22:00 And a touchscreen Jan 27 19:22:09 * koen kicks drupal 5 for not having proper georss support Jan 27 19:22:31 There is nothing there you actually need a neo for - though it'd be nice. Jan 27 19:22:37 koen: http://www.dankarran.com/blog/archives/2007/01/25/kml_and_georss_now_ready_for_drupal_50.php Jan 27 19:22:52 :) Jan 27 19:22:52 stop being so mean to Drupal ;) Jan 27 19:23:06 it supports postgres as well? Jan 27 19:23:17 most drupal devs seem to be 13 year old mysql users :( Jan 27 19:23:22 I'm not sure about that - I haven't dug into it yet Jan 27 19:23:26 Dan isn't Jan 27 19:23:44 s/dev/module authors/ Jan 27 19:23:45 koen meant: most drupal module authorss seem to be 13 year old mysql users :( Jan 27 19:23:57 people with dark coloured hats like drupal and joomla :) Jan 27 19:24:16 speaking of, I need to add that news to the GeoRSS blog Jan 27 19:24:20 two systems that can easily load hole-plugins Jan 27 19:27:39 btw SpeedEvil - h/w demos better ;) Jan 27 19:27:50 Oh I utterly agree. Jan 27 19:28:06 Don't even talk to me about Drupal. Jan 27 19:28:53 * orospakr starts muttering about lack of a test framework, or even any kind of exception handling. Jan 27 19:30:28 dont forget that it is a feature when russian and chinese skilled professionals administrate your server after you installed one of those applications :) Jan 27 19:31:30 haha, that too. ;) Jan 27 19:33:40 koen: just found sean mail in my actual mailbox, that guy is too clever Jan 27 19:39:07 XorA: :D Jan 27 19:39:33 bastard, I tell you Jan 27 19:41:18 Hey, I've not heard this topic aired before ... (maybe on ML?): the west is not the only area of the world interest in FOSS. Indeed, the Neo is native to the far east, so one could reasonably expect interest at home to be even higher than here. So ... what's happening out yonder? Is there an eastern OpenMoko too, and a whole other group of enthusiats, quite possible even larger than ourselves? Jan 27 19:42:40 Calling FIC .... ;-) Jan 27 19:55:23 I just did a channel /who and only one far eastern host was obvious by domain (plenty unresolved hosts though, and with generic global domains). Not sure if this means anything, probably not. But at least it might mean that there isn't a large eastern presence here. So ... where is it? Elsewhere? Jan 27 19:59:23 so... are people over the "OMG, WIFI!?!11"-phase? Jan 27 19:59:37 Nope, coz there is no wifi Jan 27 20:01:44 well my host didn't resolve, but i'm from old europe ;) Jan 27 20:02:08 ...if you wanna call that eastern ;) Jan 27 20:02:29 Heh, I wonder which Europe is the oldest ... .at? Jan 27 20:02:44 germany Jan 27 20:02:53 Or .no Jan 27 20:03:33 No, .at predates central and northern europe, we were barbarians during the golden Athenic period Jan 27 20:03:47 .kremlin.ru? Jan 27 20:03:49 according to bush rather germany and france ;) Jan 27 20:03:51 kremvax? Jan 27 20:04:08 Or rather kremlin!ru Jan 27 20:04:12 LOL, according to bush 1+2 == 878976234098 Jan 27 20:04:24 Sencer: hehe Jan 27 20:05:06 well, for very, very large values of 1 and 2... Jan 27 20:05:22 And according to Blair, 1+2 = 976987 ... so the insanity in UK vs US is only a matter of degree Jan 27 20:05:40 LI: hehe, nicely put Jan 27 20:09:00 Come to think of it, Neo/OM will probably be banned in the UK, because it can't be bugged by the police state, which is UK >>>>>>>> US. Jan 27 20:09:24 See US, UK rulez!!! :-( Jan 27 20:09:25 well, they dont ban old phones, do they? Jan 27 20:09:26 Morgret: I really doubt that. Jan 27 20:09:51 Well - ROHS Jan 27 20:10:03 But that doesn't apply to existing items. Jan 27 20:10:07 i'm using a me45. old & robust ;) Jan 27 20:10:16 Morgret: especially considering if you were bugging the mobile phone network you wouldn't put bugs on individual phones, you'd go after the network providers, or listen into the airwaves yourself. Jan 27 20:10:30 J/K. But the fact of UK surveilance goes far beyond what we considered fiction just 10 years ago. Jan 27 20:10:32 You ideally want bugs on phones too. Jan 27 20:10:39 So you can turn the mic on remotely. Jan 27 20:11:07 hi there. Will the neo1973 have : a memory card slot ? A camera ? A syncML client ? Jan 27 20:11:07 SpeedEvil: you can if they can flash your firmware or if that was build in before Jan 27 20:11:16 SpeedEvil: eh? why don't you just sit 100s of miles away with a receiver and listen in on 1000s of people at once. :/ Jan 27 20:11:29 Moox: yes. no, up to community Jan 27 20:11:47 but you know that phones near speakers make noise, so keep it there for a while and listen if it's making any noise Jan 27 20:11:52 Because eavesdropping GSM is annoyingly hard. Jan 27 20:12:10 you mean static Jan 27 20:12:17 SpeedEvil: subphoena the network operators then. Jan 27 20:12:18 no its not. you just have to have a stronger signal ;) Jan 27 20:12:21 It's much nicer if you can get the phone to relay conversations in its vicinity. even when 'off'. Jan 27 20:12:58 you get that out of any device that uses at switching power supply Jan 27 20:13:04 you may not listen "live" because cracking takes some time, but you can record conversations and wait a few days Jan 27 20:13:05 It's not static - it's the blipping sort of noise you get when it's close to a (amplified) speaker or radio Jan 27 20:13:12 Morgret: thanks. And what about a JVM ? a (friendly) SDK ? Special price for developers ? Jan 27 20:13:28 take an am radio tune it between stations and hold it to your monitor Jan 27 20:13:36 you will get something similar Jan 27 20:14:08 * lamby hands out the tinfoil hats. Jan 27 20:14:30 blipping might be a a clock of some sort Jan 27 20:14:36 The point about phone bugging referred to the fact that automatic phone firmware updates can trivially contain bugs. Well in OM, we control the circuit from microphone to mobile, so that's simply not possible even if the cellular hidden blob is bugged. Jan 27 20:14:42 Moox: no camera, card slot, if you want to write one, or if someone does. Jan 27 20:14:52 Moox: Same thing there, a jvm as soon as it's in openembedded Jan 27 20:15:08 Moox: anything you want can be installed if you find someone to code it and the CPU can handle it. Jan 27 20:15:16 Morgret: do we know what's in the gsm transceiver blackbox? Jan 27 20:15:27 ...maybe they can flash that one Jan 27 20:15:39 It's pretty easy to dissasemble (physically) the gsm tranciever and look for a mic. Jan 27 20:15:47 The point is that the gsm tranciever has no mic. Jan 27 20:15:52 We feed it audio. Jan 27 20:15:57 Moox: JVM is up to community. SDK is standard OE. Special price ... you must be joking, get in line :P Jan 27 20:16:00 If we do not feed it audio, it's deaf. Jan 27 20:16:18 sure, but it has firmware... maybe it's able to download firmware via gsm Jan 27 20:16:18 CM : on my nokia 770, it wasn't possible to install a JVM because they were licenses problems with the ARM java accelerator or something like that Jan 27 20:16:39 LittleIdiot: the mic is not under the control of the GSM module, but the linux bit. Jan 27 20:16:42 LittleIdiot: we don't know what's in the GSM black box ... but it's not the main phone's microphone ... we control that :P Jan 27 20:17:04 Do we also control the vertical? Jan 27 20:17:07 Morgret: arf, I saw for developers who already commit their devs in a known project,,, I never did that before Jan 27 20:17:10 Hahahaha Jan 27 20:17:18 SpeedEvil: retro :P Jan 27 20:19:42 Moox: there are no licensing problems on the Neo/OM ... or else FIC makes a loss as most of the FOSS entusiasts withdraw. It's that simple. Jan 27 20:20:14 Well - there is the GPSd thing. Jan 27 20:20:27 Though that probably won't bother many. Jan 27 20:21:08 That's only for assisted mode. ASSUMING that FIC give us the datasheet for the Hammerhead. If not, then that have some explaining to do, and I won't be in a generous mood. Jan 27 20:21:29 will we be able to tell the gsm module which "tower" it should connect to? Jan 27 20:21:44 ...if so, i wonder if we can make tracking a little harder ;) Jan 27 20:22:01 chaning transmit powers, changing cells... Jan 27 20:22:27 you can only push hardware so far Jan 27 20:22:38 then it will sizzle Jan 27 20:26:55 We do not get raw access to GSM. Jan 27 20:26:56 Talking about being in a generous mood ... notice that we're not just consumers here. It goes a bit deeper than that. And that has ramifications. Jan 27 20:27:08 Only to talk via the simple interface to the GSM module. Jan 27 20:27:24 You are not going to be able to use it for hacking/phreaking. Jan 27 20:27:49 SpeedEvil: that's not entirely true Jan 27 20:27:59 It's not? Jan 27 20:28:07 SpeedEvil: can flash flash the gsm firmware using the audio connector Jan 27 20:28:20 Sure, there's a clear physical line drawn. We are in control of the vertical^H^H^YH^H^H host CPU and everything it can touch. Nothing more. Jan 27 20:28:47 Well, that pretty much requires either docs, or a really uncritical returns policy to get working. Jan 27 20:28:58 Flashing the GSM with your own image. Jan 27 20:29:08 Returns policy? Jan 27 20:29:10 * Morgret laughs Jan 27 20:29:14 I suspect it's an arm7 Jan 27 20:29:26 'It stopped working, I don't know why, can I have a new one' Jan 27 20:30:16 They'll refund the ARM, but not the leg :P Jan 27 20:33:11 That said ... we are part of FIC's success, or failure, it's a very novel experimental partnership, and I don't think they will want to alienate their partners. Jan 27 20:35:42 On the other hand, Neo/OM is only a minor project in FIC, it's a big company. The CEO might not even have heard of it .... we'll have to see. Jan 27 20:42:42 Oh wait, the guys did a show exhibit or two, he must have signed off on expenses! Yes, the CEO knows we're here! ;-) Jan 27 20:45:43 Time to kill some innocent level 1 bats and snakes ... Jan 27 21:04:03 Morgret - I haven't really realised "we" are their partners. But you're right. :) Jan 27 21:04:46 BTW: We need to be able to do some stuff with the gsm. Things like choosing the provider, when multiple providers are currently allowed for the sim. Jan 27 21:05:21 that's just a few at commands Jan 27 21:05:35 Are they documented? Jan 27 21:09:46 I wonder, how long it took to convince the ceo. :) Jan 27 21:10:55 Elrond: in theory we can do all that at th serial interface using modem-like AT commands. Don't think we'll get any info on it for a couple of weeks. Jan 27 21:11:02 counter Jan 27 21:11:02 2 weeks 02:17:50 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 27 21:11:05 :-( Jan 27 21:12:01 I'm not too interested in the GSM side, you guys handle it. I'll play with GSM and Bluetooth on the peripherals side. Jan 27 21:12:17 Yeah, same here. Jan 27 21:12:40 LOL, I mean GPS and Bluetooth. Jan 27 21:12:51 ha Jan 27 21:13:16 Too many TLAs atm ffs. Jan 27 21:13:59 Huh, yeah. gps and bt. :) Jan 27 21:14:16 I wont even give it my sim for the beginning. ;) Jan 27 21:14:46 what is openmoko about? I read about it on reddit; but the website says little Jan 27 21:15:06 http://www.openmoko.com/press/ Jan 27 21:15:10 hi Jan 27 21:15:17 Read the slides. Jan 27 21:15:37 i wanted to buy a nokia n800, and somehow come to openmoko.. :-p where can a see a hw spec that can run this? Jan 27 21:15:48 fghj: simply a phone with the O/S under community control. The peripherals are under designer control, clear demarkation. Jan 27 21:16:00 (or will).. Jan 27 21:16:34 killfill - openmoko currently is geared towards the Neo. Jan 27 21:16:49 1973? Jan 27 21:16:50 Which means that all the clever stuff we can make as nice and intelligent as wel like, but there will be a few limitations on the basic hardware side. Good tradeoff. Jan 27 21:16:55 cannot find info about it.. :-S Jan 27 21:17:32 killfill - http://www.openmoko.com/press/ There's a quick hw sketch. Jan 27 21:17:53 killfill: Yeah, info is a bit sparse. Need to wait two weeks. Jan 27 21:17:56 counter Jan 27 21:17:57 2 weeks 02:10:55 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 27 21:18:01 killfill: Also, check the topic of this channel Jan 27 21:20:01 heh.. :-p Jan 27 21:20:04 CM: ok Jan 27 21:20:48 killfill: Especially the official announcement :-) Jan 27 21:22:54 oh it uses gtk? Jan 27 21:22:56 cool Jan 27 21:23:00 Yep. Jan 27 21:24:04 oh, i will be able to conect to inet wia bluetooth Jan 27 21:25:08 Should we put a mini-webserver on it for easy access from the desktop? Jan 27 21:26:35 killfill: it uses anything we want, within the host O/S side. That's the beauty of it, it's up to us. Jan 27 21:26:44 a webservice.. so configuration can be made "in batch" :-p Jan 27 21:27:43 Morgret: greate! Jan 27 21:29:09 killfill: very much doubt that "in batch" upgrades will happen, or at least not community-wide, only if you subscribe to a specific group. Because many people would rather be dead than have something forced on them. Very different to a commercial environment. Jan 27 21:29:15 killfill - I'm currently pondering platform independent ways to communicate with the desktop. Jan 27 21:30:38 Morgret - hehe, like the snom-phone, which can autoupdate itself. (pulling. ;o) ) Jan 27 21:31:46 Morgret: oh sure.. i was planing in a comercial enviroment.. i.e. to configure all software (on the mobiles) that enables a company to provide its service .. :-) Jan 27 21:31:53 planing/thinking... Jan 27 21:33:01 Right, all that is possible, if you find a developer to create it for you. :) Jan 27 21:33:11 hehe Jan 27 21:33:19 Morgret: This was kind of funny.. http://goodbye-microsoft.com/ Jan 27 21:33:45 what about LiMo? has openmoko something to do with them? Jan 27 21:34:11 What's limo? Jan 27 21:34:13 killfill: No, they have some weird licenses and such Jan 27 21:34:42 It's not gpl for sure, more like "free for all other members of our paying club" or something like that Jan 27 21:35:04 killfill: LiMo are clueless. They actually made it a condition of membership that Linux sources would not be released to non-members under any circumstances. Go figure. That kind of cluelessness takes some beating. Jan 27 21:35:38 wel.. Jan 27 21:36:33 Huh, that does sound like violating the gpl? Jan 27 21:36:37 thinking that the GPL is a virus.. i thought it was virtually impossible to use linux and not release the modifications they will made non-gpl.. Jan 27 21:37:01 they have DRM Jan 27 21:37:05 it must be good Jan 27 21:37:07 Elrond: Their apps don't have to be gpl to run on a gpl os Jan 27 21:37:08 ;) Jan 27 21:37:09 Elrond: Linux Mobile Foundation ... announced only 2 days ago, clearly in defensive response to FIC's announcement. Jan 27 21:37:34 Morgret - Ahh. Jan 27 21:37:48 They even have a homepage, http://www.limofoundation.org Jan 27 21:37:50 CM - Okay... but then they can't have drm. ;o) Jan 27 21:38:00 Elrond: Jan 27 21:38:06 Jan. 25, 2007 - Six of the world's largest telecom companies launch the Linux Mobile (LiMo) Foundation: Motorola, NEC, NTT DoCoMo, P Jan 27 21:38:06 anasonic, Samsung, and Vodafone. The LiMo specification will be released under an open source license such as the GPL, but kernel a Jan 27 21:38:06 nd middleware will be released under the Foundation Public License. The FPL forbids source code distribution to non-members of the Jan 27 21:38:07 Foundation under any terms. Jan 27 21:38:25 Funny :P Jan 27 21:38:29 sounds like SCO fun Jan 27 21:38:42 way to go big guys Jan 27 21:38:45 MDK: hahaha, yes Jan 27 21:38:46 i guess eventually someone will whack them, and whack them hard Jan 27 21:38:48 straight to hell ;) Jan 27 21:39:19 That's what happens when PHB's from several companies agree on some clever scheme for making more money.. Jan 27 21:39:27 For me that sounds like violating the gpl of the linux kernel. What am I missing? Jan 27 21:39:27 Yep. Jan 27 21:39:43 Elrond: well, they haven't done it yet I guess Jan 27 21:39:44 hey guys.. and the choise of linux was made becouse it has the power to attract very much developers?.. what about *BSDs? Jan 27 21:39:49 Elrond: you're not missing anything. They're slightly short of a clue though Jan 27 21:40:05 killfill: I'm guessing better support under linux Jan 27 21:40:19 And more software Jan 27 21:40:27 So lInus can sue them from the start. ;o) Jan 27 21:40:33 better support for the hw companies? Jan 27 21:40:37 from Jan 27 21:40:41 I'm guessing since linux -- since all the other cool kids do linux Jan 27 21:40:54 err, linux since ... Jan 27 21:41:23 oh crap, I managed to really make this sentence unreadable Jan 27 21:41:23 kids? Well I'm sure there are some. But for the most part the kids are elsewhere. Old timers here :P Jan 27 21:41:40 hehe, right. ;) Jan 27 21:41:52 I mean, nokia, fic, novell... Jan 27 21:41:56 you know, they do linux Jan 27 21:42:04 you know, there must be something in it... Jan 27 21:42:05 right? ;) Jan 27 21:42:18 Yes, it's a big "kid"-thingy. Jan 27 21:42:35 just becouse it has become popular.. so they can make more money.. :-p Jan 27 21:42:37 But nobody stops you from porting bsd to the neo. :) Jan 27 21:42:42 * killfill BSD guy... :-p Jan 27 21:42:45 it's like -- 'if you don't have a clue what to do, just try doing what others do' Jan 27 21:42:56 hehe Jan 27 21:43:06 Well, I notice that Nokia wasn't among the big 6 of LiMo ... and they already have 770/Maemo. So I'm guessing that Nokia is laughing at LiMo as much as we are. Jan 27 21:43:18 killfill - port linux to the neo. It should be possible. Jan 27 21:43:45 * CM is guessing Elrond ment BSD Jan 27 21:43:54 Is anyone here on the Maemo foums? Jan 27 21:43:56 limo is mentions gtk btw Jan 27 21:43:58 CM - *gna* Yes. Jan 27 21:44:07 Morgret: i'm Jan 27 21:44:28 MDK: have they mentioned LiMo? Jan 27 21:44:42 I guess everybody is just shitting in his pants now and making chaotic movements Jan 27 21:44:42 what do you think about maemo?.. im thinking about buyng a n800 ..:-p Jan 27 21:44:52 since iphone is coming, stuff like that Jan 27 21:44:59 symbian is a piece of crap that has no future Jan 27 21:45:07 you have to do 'something' ;) Jan 27 21:45:50 Morgret: there was an interesting discussion about gpl3 vs. drm stuff vs. gtk Jan 27 21:45:59 It's a nice device. It's not quite as open as OM, as some more binary stuff, but it's a great platform, and awesome display. Jan 27 21:46:00 on the irc channel though Jan 27 21:46:48 Morgret: we try to be more open and hopefully we'll move in that direction Jan 27 21:47:02 we can't do certain things because of hardware etc. Jan 27 21:47:16 hm.. but.. Jan 27 21:47:19 maemo is a tiny spot on the nokia radar at the moment Jan 27 21:47:23 A built in GPS on the N900 would be sweet.. Jan 27 21:47:25 OM, is software.. who does the hw? Jan 27 21:47:35 Assuming it will be another maemo device Jan 27 21:47:39 Anyone - in principle. Jan 27 21:47:43 killfill - FIC. Jan 27 21:47:57 First device will be FIC - the neo[0-9][0-9][0-9][0-9] phone. Jan 27 21:48:05 1948? Jan 27 21:48:14 CM, if it had a GPS instead of that looser camera they put on it.. i would already have one.. :-p Jan 27 21:48:19 I meant -- the hardware vs. open device drivers Jan 27 21:48:30 killfill: Same here, definitely :-) Jan 27 21:48:34 MDK: yeah, but that''s the same as Neo/OM on the FIC radar, guaranteed. Well, we'll certainly be trying to make the platform great from our side :P Jan 27 21:49:07 * killfill searching who is FIC.. :-p Jan 27 21:49:25 FIC is to Neo as Nokia is to 770 Jan 27 21:50:31 killfill: the phone is the FIC Neo1973 running OpenMoko Jan 27 21:50:46 yup got the picture Jan 27 21:51:19 i wonder.. why didnt the guys at LiMo uses OM? Jan 27 21:51:30 they did what the did i guess becouse of nokia.. Jan 27 21:51:30 I'm dying to see how the themes vs. gtk problem was solved in openmoko Jan 27 21:51:53 MDK: mickeyl hasn't been so happy with that, afaikt Jan 27 21:51:56 killfill: Because they're into the old control game. Jan 27 21:52:11 s/afaikt/afaict/ Jan 27 21:52:13 CM meant: MDK: mickeyl hasn't been so happy with that, afaict Jan 27 21:52:18 CM: can imagine. It's giving us pain too Jan 27 21:52:50 but they are not even started.. nokia are on they way... Limo will need very much efforts.. dont know Jan 27 21:52:52 No way to do anything about that? Simplify it somehow? Some kind of themeing layer? Jan 27 21:53:13 What's the issue there? I'm not a themes demon. Jan 27 21:53:14 CM: well, it's related to how gtk works Jan 27 21:53:34 we basically try to solve it at the build-tools level Jan 27 21:53:50 Ah, ok Jan 27 21:54:26 we have tools that automatically do all the crap (generate theme) from templates such as this one: https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-theme-plankton-3/template/template.png Jan 27 21:54:35 but it's not perfect Jan 27 21:54:48 Ah, still cool Jan 27 21:54:56 adding ANYTHING new requires lot's of talking between designer & coder Jan 27 21:54:58 I was thinking about something like that Jan 27 21:55:08 True, not exactly flexible Jan 27 21:55:10 since the gtkrc file is a total mystery for the artist Jan 27 21:57:05 counter Jan 27 21:57:05 2 weeks 01:31:46 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 27 21:57:13 Two more weeks.. Jan 27 21:57:41 * CM is off to read some Jan 27 21:58:01 I think the general problem is that gnome and kde have evolved alongside desktop CPUs ... and poor li'l embedded micros struggle with it. Jan 27 21:58:20 i think ill buy the n800.. :-p Jan 27 21:59:03 It's a good device Jan 27 21:59:38 i only miss agood video playback.. hope mplay will run there one day.. Jan 27 22:00:18 No reason why not, our CPU is slow and it runs Jan 27 22:01:30 Do you have a hardware video scaler though. Jan 27 22:01:31 The 800 is faster than the 770 anyway Jan 27 22:02:59 IIRC at 640x480*16bit, you have around 12 instructions per pixel if you want 25fps Jan 27 22:03:59 That's tighter than ... Jan 27 22:04:03 Maybe double or half, depending on stuff. It's not a whole lot though. Jan 27 22:08:32 480x640. ;o) Jan 27 22:08:48 Or is there a rotate-module? ;o) Jan 27 22:09:02 With a GPS in the N800 I would probably buy it too. Jan 27 22:10:20 Well, if I get a nearly fully free thingy... I'm pissed by closed source vendors. Jan 27 22:12:49 counter Jan 27 22:12:50 2 weeks 01:16:02 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 27 22:24:44 SpeedEvil: memory speed it important for video playback, it is probably more important than cpu clock speed Jan 27 22:25:15 SpeedEvil: hardware scaler would help, but its absence is not critical, it is very important to have hardware YUV colorspace support though Jan 27 22:27:49 Morgret: do you have any preliminary video performance benchmarks? (you are one of OpenMoko developers, right?) Jan 27 22:31:37 oops, sorry, I thought you were discussing Neo1973 video playback capabilities, my apologies Jan 27 22:33:14 killfill: don't worry, n800 has a better video support potential than 770, it will just take a bit of time to optimize mplayer for it :) Jan 27 22:37:20 By the way, I wonder if Neo1973 will be sold really worldwide and not restricted to just a limited number of countries Jan 27 22:41:30 As long, as germany is in that country list. ;o) Jan 27 22:46:37 anywhere Jan 27 22:47:02 if there isn't a direct distributor you'll be able to get it from .tw Jan 27 22:47:49 that is according to the gospel of Sean. Jan 27 22:48:00 Ahh. Jan 27 22:48:23 A distributor in Frankfurt (FFM) would be cool. I could go there and take a look before buying. :) Jan 27 22:49:08 Elrond: Well, I believe there is going o be a distributor in .eu for the development phones even Jan 27 22:50:13 Yep. I just hesitate to buy one without having it had in my hand before. ;) Jan 27 22:50:53 or at least to see what other people think huh? Jan 27 22:51:59 That also. But I'm old-fashioned. If I want to use something and like it, have to have it in my hands first. :) Jan 27 22:55:59 noidd - Example the other way round: The Magellan explorist XL is quite large ( http://www.magellangps.com/products/product.asp?prodID=1141&SEGID=355&tab=4&ajaxlink=1141:productimage ). If I had seen it on the web, I would have said "too large". But I had it in my hands, I liked it. (it's just too expensive, and too closed) Jan 27 23:08:18 noidd - You got an idea, what I mean? Jan 27 23:23:19 http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/01/28/congratulations-you-have-won-a-free-neo1973/ Jan 27 23:24:04 what? Jan 27 23:24:17 hrw|gone: nice. Jan 27 23:24:35 i'm don't understand, what is it? Jan 27 23:24:45 hrw|gone: congrats Jan 27 23:25:19 woah, i have that, congrat... (i want one in the same way!!:))) Jan 27 23:26:05 hrw: nice Jan 27 23:26:28 tx Jan 27 23:26:40 hrw: you're from .pl? Jan 27 23:26:43 yes Jan 27 23:26:47 MDK: you too? Jan 27 23:27:08 yeah, now freezing my ass in helsink though Jan 27 23:27:20 MDK: PoznaÅ„ here Jan 27 23:27:22 Gratz man Jan 27 23:27:38 That's very cool. Jan 27 23:28:25 heh, if the word "Won" was in the email subject and it hit my mailbox it would probably end up in the Junk box Jan 27 23:28:40 hehe Jan 27 23:28:55 X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.1.0 Jan 27 23:28:57 * MetaBookfoziS cries: i wanna win an openmoko ....:/ Jan 27 23:28:57 ;) Jan 27 23:29:03 at today. Jan 27 23:29:03 :) Jan 27 23:29:03 that's very likely Jan 27 23:29:35 we're having same problems with n800 coupons Jan 27 23:30:12 people miss them as they're killed by spam filters Jan 27 23:30:35 MDK: n800... I failed n770 devel program and cant afford full price of it so skipped that gadget. Jan 27 23:30:48 hrw: did you just get it? Jan 27 23:31:22 mail? few hours ago but I just get home Jan 27 23:33:09 I wonder how many well known devs will get such posts soon Jan 27 23:34:29 cu - time to sleep Jan 27 23:37:30 hrw|gone - You're in poznan? Jan 28 00:09:11 any devs in the room? Jan 28 00:16:18 BryceL: What do you like to know? Jan 28 00:30:29 stefan_schmidt: haha i'm actualy responding to your email right now Jan 28 00:30:53 BryceL: heh Jan 28 00:30:57 stefan_schmidt: i was gonna ask if anyone knew if there was an official desktop software being planned Jan 28 00:31:21 BryceL: No plans yet. Jan 28 00:31:23 stefan_schmidt: i'd personally like to ask sean but i'm sure he's killed with email Jan 28 00:31:46 stefan_schmidt: oh jeez.... Jan 28 00:31:58 stefan_schmidt: i just realized that you're the stefan from planet.openmoko Jan 28 00:32:33 BryceL: Right. Sean is really busy i guess. Discussing it on openmoko-dev is fine Jan 28 00:33:28 stefan_schmidt: awesome, do you know if there's any thing built into the base that handles logging deleted files, moved files, renamed files etc? Jan 28 00:35:21 BryceL: You mean for recovery? Jan 28 00:36:26 BryceL: Many things are not even planned yet. :) Feedback like yours are needed for it. :) Jan 28 00:36:38 stefan_schmidt: no i mean for accounting purposes when syncing with the desktop software that isn't made yet Jan 28 00:36:43 BryceL: I like the idea to having easy recovery. Jan 28 00:36:54 brb Jan 28 00:38:11 stefan_schmidt: easy recovery sounds good too. That's always an option. And then you could even sync the two hidden trash dir's on both the desktop and the 1973 Jan 28 00:50:32 BryceL: hmm, why you like to have an accounting for stuff that is not synced yet? The sync software should make this right on is own. Jan 28 00:54:34 apropos recovery: I hope the neo can't be flashed dead? Jan 28 00:55:19 Elrond: If you don't flash a "fixed" bootloader, it should be fine Jan 28 00:55:21 :) Jan 28 00:57:23 stefan_schmidt - so if the normal image is 0rked, I can flash a new one? :) Jan 28 00:57:57 stefan_schmidt: i'd like accounting on both ends because i've had problems with my palm desktop software getting messed up and with my treo and if there were accouting on two sides it wouldn't have happened Jan 28 00:58:22 stefan_schmidt: if each side is as smart as possible (and has a way to resolve differances) then users are most protected from data loss Jan 28 00:58:27 Elrond: Should be this way. I heared about a usb enabled bootloader who can handle the firmware updates. Not ready yet, but in progress. Jan 28 00:59:30 BryceL: hmm, this adds more complexity and overhead, but perhaps it is worth some thoughts. Jan 28 01:01:04 stefan_schmidt - Ahh. I hope, it will be in the march-version. Otherwise fix will have fun with peolle sending their phones back "I didn't want to, but I broke it" ;o) Jan 28 01:01:26 s/fix/fic/ Jan 28 01:01:26 Elrond meant: stefan_schmidt - Ahh. I hope, it will be in the march-version. Otherwise fic will have fun with peolle sending their phones back "I didn't want to, but I broke it" ;o) Jan 28 01:02:10 Elrond: Until march there will be guides how you can update the stuff without make your phone a brick. Jan 28 01:02:48 Very good! :) Jan 28 01:02:57 Elrond: And if it is a brick, buy a bottle of beer and drive to somebody who has the lunchbox kit. Even a brick is fixable with JTAG Jan 28 01:03:00 :) Jan 28 01:03:18 stefan_schmidt: i can think of a few ways to do with while only adding the overhead of a small sqlite db or even just a couple flat text files. Jan 28 01:03:44 stefan_schmidt: is the extra cost for the lunchbox kit going to be known Jan 28 01:04:29 BryceL: No, no idea. I hope it is included in my early dev kit in february. :) Jan 28 01:05:52 stefan_schmidt: heh you lucky dog! I'll probably be picking one of them up (hopefully it'll be less than 150) Jan 28 01:06:25 150? Jan 28 01:07:05 Elrond: sorry $150usd Jan 28 01:07:50 Huh. I thought, it would be like $350? Jan 28 01:08:02 Or you mean the "lunchbox kit"? Jan 28 01:08:24 Elrond: kit Jan 28 01:08:37 Elrond: Price for the phone is 350$ Jan 28 01:09:46 I LOATH windows Jan 28 01:09:56 stefan_schmidt: which is a steal for sure. Beats the pants off of treos and most smartphones without contract Jan 28 01:10:29 Mortimus: s/LOATH/loathe/ :-D Jan 28 01:11:17 i saw that too after i entered it 8-) Jan 28 01:11:36 stefan_schmidt - Will it be $350 in september for mom and dad too? Jan 28 01:11:55 BryceL: Yes, price is nice. Especially with the display and gps. But to reduce the cost the SoC is not the newest. Jan 28 01:12:49 i have a question the text messaging interface in openmoko can be anything you want just that when sending it complies with gsm rules, right? Jan 28 01:12:49 stefan_schmidt: very true but the SoC is still very very good. It's more than good enough for mobile tasks. Jan 28 01:13:36 BryceL: Right, good enough for mobil stuff. Multimedia hopefully comes in the next version Jan 28 01:14:12 multimedia as in videos? Jan 28 01:14:22 stefan_schmidt: it should be easily good enough for multimedia Jan 28 01:14:35 Mortimus - I'd guess so. You might even create your own sms-mass-messaging system by talking straight at-commdands with the gsm module. ;) Jan 28 01:14:49 Mortimus: You should be able to build your own text app using lingsm, right. Jan 28 01:15:20 stefan_schmidt: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050727-5141.html Jan 28 01:15:36 No videos on the Neo1973. Even playing mp3 needs 20-30% cpu alright Jan 28 01:15:44 nice ! because something i find that annoying is that all phones have a HORRIBLE texting interface Jan 28 01:16:15 stefan_schmidt: with what player? Jan 28 01:16:50 stefan_schmidt: those specs are for first gen ipod video that plays h.264 Jan 28 01:17:04 Mortimus: IIRC they use mplayer with skin atm. Perhaps gstreamer later. We shall see. Jan 28 01:17:52 BryceL: Without extra chip for it? Jan 28 01:18:05 BryceL: keep in mind our display is 480x640 Jan 28 01:18:22 BryceL: Anyway, I loved to be proofen wrong with this. :) Jan 28 01:18:24 stefan_schmidt: yessir except it has an external ac97 for audio Jan 28 01:18:51 yay ac97 that is in everything Jan 28 01:18:59 stefan_schmidt: i'm sure it could play slightly lower res video stretched, and after come compiling with optomizations i'll bet it'll be fine Jan 28 01:19:23 s/come/some Jan 28 01:19:33 does the total harmonic distortion depends the the manufacture of the chip? Jan 28 01:19:54 BryceL: would be neat. Jan 28 01:20:14 Anyway, have to sleep. It's already 3am here. Night all. Jan 28 01:20:25 good nicht Jan 28 01:20:36 *night Jan 28 01:20:47 stefan_schmidt: night Jan 28 01:21:00 Mortimus: yes and a few other factors also Jan 28 01:21:22 stefan_schmidt - Are you from .de? Jan 28 01:21:53 i just hope its not 10% Jan 28 01:22:01 which is now the norm Jan 28 01:22:43 Mortimus: that's not too bad, i mean for a mobile device that's darn good Jan 28 01:24:36 Night people. Jan 28 01:25:21 30% percent is a square wave so i have yet to find anything worse than 10% Jan 28 01:27:39 Elrond: You're from FEM? Jan 28 01:28:55 Mortimus: doesn't sound bad Jan 28 01:30:10 well i am just going to have to wait till i try it out Jan 28 01:30:37 Mortimus: heh, i can't wait for that, march can't come soon enough Jan 28 01:30:43 it's even just before my birthday too lol Jan 28 01:30:53 count Jan 28 01:30:57 couter Jan 28 01:31:03 counter Jan 28 01:31:03 1 week, 6 days 21:57:47 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 4 days for any developers (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 weeks, 1 day for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 28 01:31:12 there we go Jan 28 01:31:38 can't everyone get it as a dev Jan 28 01:32:32 my bad i confused the 1 week 6 days with the 1 month 1 week 4 days Jan 28 01:35:09 ahh i can't wait i've got xoo and open embedded all set up Jan 28 01:36:46 Anybody have pictures of this device? Jan 28 01:37:01 oh nvm found it Jan 28 01:45:15 alphaone - No. I just have my account on that box and know Mario. ;) Jan 28 01:48:43 stefan_schmidt: 20-30% for mp3 seems too much, did you decode it with libmad library? Jan 28 01:49:13 Elrond: ah, okay :-) Jan 28 01:50:41 stefan_schmidt: ffmp3 decoder from ffmpeg is slower than libmad Jan 28 01:52:03 alphaone - You're from Ilmenau? Jan 28 01:52:30 stefan_schmidt: I remember that mp3 decoding on Nokia 770 took about 15% cpu load on ARM core with libmad, and libmad does not contain any extra optimizations for cores better than armv4 Jan 28 01:53:56 ssvb: setfan's actually out he went to bed Jan 28 01:54:19 ssvb: and I completely agree with you, libmad was exactly what i was thinking of and optomizing it as well Jan 28 01:55:27 BruceL: ah I see, sorry Jan 28 01:55:53 ssvb: no apologies necessary Jan 28 01:56:03 Do you know if Neo1973 is capable of 320x240 mpeg4 video playback? Jan 28 01:56:22 ssvb: heh, well the people offically working on it say no, but i completely dissagree Jan 28 01:56:32 :) Jan 28 01:56:50 ssvb: if you look at the sharp soc that's used in the first gen ipod video that can pay back 320x240 h.264 (checks numbers) Jan 28 01:57:12 Elrond: No, I'm from Braunschweig but I know some of the FEM guys Jan 28 01:57:42 did ipod have any dedicated hardware video accelerator? Jan 28 01:58:08 ssvb: not from any of the specs that I've dug up so i cay say with 70 percent certainty that it does not Jan 28 01:58:19 ssvb: i only saw ac97 Jan 28 01:59:33 alphaone - Ahh. From where is stefan_schmidt? Jan 28 02:00:14 ssvb: I think that an ogg/theora stream could be played back (probably at 55% cpu after tweaking) Jan 28 02:06:39 Night people. Jan 28 02:12:36 Elrond: Stefan is also from near Braunschweig. We know each other from college Jan 28 02:36:44 wow! Braunschweig, the city of science! Jan 28 02:37:46 some days i feel like the only guy from the us Jan 28 02:39:19 for now i think i m the only one from hong kong :p Jan 28 02:39:39 hahaha :-D Jan 28 02:40:09 ac97 is the audio codec? Jan 28 02:49:35 l3010o: yup Jan 28 02:49:52 l3010o: well... i don't know if it's on the samsung chip for the neo Jan 28 02:49:56 lemme check Jan 28 02:51:21 ac97.that's the realtek one? Jan 28 02:52:02 l3010o: well realtek does a version of it, and it's not on the SoC used in the Neo Jan 28 02:55:23 i see Jan 28 02:55:48 l3010o: that ac97 comment was in refrence to what was used in the first gen ipod video Jan 28 02:56:23 how abt the other generations? Jan 28 02:59:55 l3010o: they should all have that **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jan 28 02:59:58 2007