**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 01 02:59:57 2007 Feb 01 03:08:31 jacobfan: have the developers been chosen? Feb 01 03:09:37 DukeOfURL: yes. Feb 01 03:09:58 :=( Feb 01 03:10:35 anybody know how many were? Feb 01 03:12:34 DukeOfURL: I do not know. Feb 01 03:13:13 DukeOfURL: I think the 2007-03-11 launch is for everybody, not for selected developers. Feb 01 03:14:10 yes. 50 developers get phones on 02-11. Feb 01 03:15:30 Is the case tamper proof? Feb 01 03:16:17 DukeOfURL : how so tamper proof Feb 01 03:16:56 I'll give the phone to a client, but I don't want him opening it up. Feb 01 03:17:12 Also, no CLI access Feb 01 03:18:46 i think i read that you can interchange the battery Feb 01 03:20:40 Superglue ;=) Feb 01 03:23:18 DukeOfURL: haha. if you're looking for a locked down environment, you got the wrong phone. there's a terminal option on the main menu. Feb 01 03:23:39 hmmmm Feb 01 03:24:07 But he still needs a username and password, right? Feb 01 03:43:36 I think if you have the phone you can create your own user/pass Feb 01 03:44:05 or just boot to single-user or something; yeah, it's the worst possible phone to attempt to lock down. Feb 01 03:44:45 why would you lock down a phone? Feb 01 03:44:51 seriously Feb 01 03:45:00 i can see it for children Feb 01 03:45:18 or corporate profit Feb 01 03:45:55 for clients, I would be a Leary as a client getting a phone just being a client Feb 01 03:46:26 I just can't freakin wait, I really hope this will take off Feb 01 03:46:42 I'm worried about providers, but I'm a newb Feb 01 03:47:06 for me it will being technologically inclined Feb 01 03:47:20 don't like something change it Feb 01 03:47:46 I'm not sure I follow Feb 01 03:48:08 its the ultimate power, besides i really need to put my idea for a texti'ng interface to use Feb 01 03:48:32 ahh, yes Feb 01 03:49:26 I'm late on the dev scene for the software, I'm just waiting to get my hands on the hardware before I really dive in. Feb 01 03:49:39 but a decent texting ui is key Feb 01 03:50:59 yup, conversation view for text'ing would be sweet Feb 01 03:51:30 yes it would Feb 01 07:36:58 any openmoko team people around? Feb 01 08:47:37 Good morning, XorA Feb 01 08:49:23 hey Feb 01 09:35:19 * aloril wonders if i.MX33 is based on http://www.arm.com/products/CPUs/ARM_Cortex-A8.html as core Feb 01 09:36:45 Removable flash media, such as SD and CF cards and USB flash drives, have a controller (often built into the card) to perform wear-levelling and error correction, so use of JFFS2 or YAFFS does not add any benefit Feb 01 09:36:54 so can i use ext3 on sd card without any issues? Feb 01 09:39:25 buz: yes Feb 01 09:39:34 mhh good Feb 01 09:39:48 with 8G flash going for 60E these days i just might stick system and home on flash in my laptop Feb 01 09:40:00 buz: yup Feb 01 09:40:11 probably compact flash Feb 01 09:40:15 thats easiest to handle in pcmcia Feb 01 09:40:22 I'd still use ext2 rather, to reduce the wear even if it's leveled Feb 01 09:41:30 mhh 8G compact flash is hideously expensive Feb 01 09:41:41 and i dont even know for sure if i can boot from it Feb 01 09:42:49 aloril: probably.. the most powerful omap is based on that as well Feb 01 09:43:34 were is the specsheet for imx33 Feb 01 09:43:35 hmm. that sounds nice for v2 Feb 01 09:43:49 aloril: yes this new ARM processor looks very exciting Feb 01 09:43:51 aloril: i guess it's _way_ more expensive :) Feb 01 09:43:54 buz: I think its 'secret' project currently ;-) Feb 01 09:44:20 aloril: arm9 is armv4, cortex is armv7 (latest stuff, highest price) Feb 01 09:44:29 aloril: I'm currently working with i.MX31, it's already an amazing embeddded microprocessor Feb 01 09:44:30 well yes Feb 01 09:44:38 but until 2008 it should get down a lot Feb 01 09:44:47 NEON? signal processing extensions to accelerate media codecs such as H.264 and MP3 Feb 01 09:44:47 vlo: that's arm11 (eg armv6), right? Feb 01 09:44:48 sweet Feb 01 09:44:57 Kaloz: exactly Feb 01 09:45:12 arm1136JF-S core to be precise Feb 01 09:45:13 vlo: yup, those seem to be nice Feb 01 09:45:30 so same as the new omap stuff in the n800 Feb 01 09:45:51 Kaloz: yeah, v2 with wifi, fast CPU, etc.. might be quite a lot more expensive than v1 Feb 01 09:45:58 i wonder if there are any 65nm arm by the time they need to design v2 Feb 01 09:46:38 we considered omap too, but TI did not consider our application as interesting ... Freescale was more receptive, so we chose i.MX31 Feb 01 09:46:55 with cpu power like that, one should get vga out Feb 01 09:48:17 counter Feb 01 09:48:18 a week, 2 days 13:40:03 (9.57 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.57 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.57 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 09:49:39 but for a "mass-product" like a mobile phone (NEO), I may think Cortex-core based CPUs may be a little too young Feb 01 09:50:08 vlo mind you v2 is off at least 1 year Feb 01 09:50:28 * aloril wonders if he should change 2007-02-11 00:00:00 UTC to 2007-02-12 00:00:00 CST - Plank time Feb 01 09:50:37 We've been developping for i.MX31 for a little bit more than one year, and at the beginning (we were under NDA) the dev process was very hard because of missing information from Freescale Feb 01 09:50:43 stupid me, cortex IS 65nm Feb 01 09:50:57 and ARM11 was announced a lot earlier Feb 01 09:51:23 vlo: v2 should be *announced* at 2007-09-11 ;-) (and maybe some really select developers with NDA get one like with v1 last year) Feb 01 09:51:24 i think eten wants to release a imx31 phone in h1 07 Feb 01 09:52:58 i just hope there will be some variations for v2 Feb 01 09:53:04 ONE phone per year isnt exactly a lot Feb 01 09:53:20 like say one with qwerty Feb 01 09:53:23 and one withuot Feb 01 09:53:30 buz: yeah, that might be case Feb 01 09:54:10 also if there is a cam, make it vga @30fps capable Feb 01 09:55:12 ETA change would add 1.25 days to counter Feb 01 09:55:12 actually the version is for the phone or OS or both? Feb 01 09:55:41 but maybe more likely estimate than UTC 00:00:00 Feb 01 09:56:22 so i.MX31 may be a very good processor candidate for v2 ... but for a Cortex-based chip, I'm less optimistic: ARM announces their core ok, but then the manufacturers still have to integrate in into their design Feb 01 09:56:46 vlo: umm.. v2 ETA is more likely something like 2008-09-11 ;-) Feb 01 09:56:58 vlo: feature announcement at 2007-09-11 Feb 01 09:57:09 how much does a imx31 cost? Feb 01 09:57:20 as opposed to s3c2410? Feb 01 09:57:32 aloril: well, anyway we will see, I'm no future seeing guy ;) Feb 01 09:58:22 buz: i.MX31 is about 30$ if I remember right Feb 01 09:58:48 mhh thats not that bad Feb 01 09:59:09 vlo: well, i guess it will be quite mature in 2008 Feb 01 09:59:20 no, it's even 20$ for 1000 pieces Feb 01 10:00:00 that would be greate to have an i.MX31 in v2 Feb 01 10:00:25 imx31, wifi,cam, CSR bluetooth/GPS combo Feb 01 10:00:40 maybe wimax :p Feb 01 10:00:55 is wimax being rolled out ANYWHERE at all? Feb 01 10:01:10 but let's play with v1 during a few months, it will already be quite fun Feb 01 10:01:10 i dont thk so but maybe for the next yr? Feb 01 10:01:40 i just figured i can justify buying a v1 on the basis that i havent bought a phone in 3 years Feb 01 10:01:46 and v2 as my graduation gift hehehe Feb 01 10:02:06 anyone knows will i be able to order the developers' phone in May? Feb 01 10:02:16 l3010o: sure Feb 01 10:02:21 march even Feb 01 10:02:58 yes i know but no preorder is needed? Feb 01 10:03:16 coz i will only have enough money in may, hehe Feb 01 10:03:23 or even in june :( Feb 01 10:03:26 buz: I haven't bought a phone for nearly 3 years too, I would love to get a v1, but I want to get some real feedback first ! Feb 01 10:03:53 yeah Feb 01 10:03:58 i dont want a phone that crashes every day Feb 01 10:04:02 see windows mobile Feb 01 10:04:15 windows mobile sucks! Feb 01 10:04:22 you dont say Feb 01 10:05:40 if windows mobile didnt suck so bad i owuld have got a tytn months ago Feb 01 10:07:15 buz: the tytn is probably very close to the neo, buy one, do a linux port :-) Feb 01 10:07:27 TyTN looks cool, i love its outlook Feb 01 10:08:34 tytn has only qvga Feb 01 10:08:45 and no specs available Feb 01 10:08:57 besides im no kernel hacker Feb 01 10:12:50 a nokia communicator like neo would be neat, that would truly be a sub sub notebook then Feb 01 10:15:35 someone here use(d) google desktop search? Feb 01 10:16:20 currently: 2007-02-11 00:00:00 UTC: Feb 01 10:16:22 a week, 2 days 13:11:59 (9.55 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-10); a month, a week, 2 days (37.55 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-10); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.55 days) for mass market (2007-09-10): see topic for more info Feb 01 10:16:56 changed to: 2007-02-12 00:00:00 CST - Plank time: Feb 01 10:16:58 a week, 3 days 19:11:23 (10.80 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.80 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.80 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 10:17:17 aloril: stop that - I'm getting more impatient when I see that... Feb 01 10:17:22 hehe Feb 01 10:17:41 but atleast I have to wait month less then others ;D Feb 01 10:18:48 well... in 1.5 weeks source code and then 0.5 weeks more, maybe more info from selected developers about hardware .. might tide over month until its generally available Feb 01 10:18:55 hrw: Perhaps *your* package get lost. Just kidding. :) Feb 01 10:19:07 hrw: Don't forget the two weeks in the Polish customs :D Feb 01 10:19:23 TRIsoft: last time it was 1-2 days Feb 01 10:19:30 valentines phones :-) Feb 01 10:19:44 XorA: Yep, FIC loves us :D Feb 01 10:20:53 hmmm, wonder how fast fuse will go on Neo Feb 01 10:21:02 Manic Miner is tempting Feb 01 10:21:02 actually, didn't use plank time, used 1s/infinity ;-) Feb 01 10:21:11 http://www.pocketfactory.com/2007/01/28/reinventing-the-palm-os-a-how-to-guide/ - interesting can be Feb 01 10:21:19 I see that the gps is actually agps - does this mean it won't work without the a part? Feb 01 10:21:23 XorA, thinking googlefs over gprs? :] Feb 01 10:21:31 wabz, it doesn't mean that Feb 01 10:21:31 as in, can it just work from the satellites without assistance? Feb 01 10:21:32 wabz: A is extension to GPS Feb 01 10:21:36 it can. Feb 01 10:21:37 mjr: wrong fuse Feb 01 10:22:00 oh okay cool Feb 01 10:22:31 the "A" bit simply means that you can get the ephemeris data required for a fix from other sources besides the satellites, thus making the _initial_ position fix possibly faster than without A Feb 01 10:23:07 but the satellites transmit that periodically too, so you don't need assistance Feb 01 10:23:15 cool - I thought it might mean that you need (pay) for the assistance part Feb 01 10:24:07 seems like you don't, besides the gprs bill (if you have A turned on) Feb 01 10:24:30 the chip provider apparently provides the service on the proceeds of the chip selling Feb 01 10:24:35 but of course, things like that can change Feb 01 10:24:52 but even if they do, as said, we'll still have positioning Feb 01 10:25:24 FIC pays some extra so they can use global locate servers to get A part Feb 01 10:25:31 ok Feb 01 10:25:38 wasn't clear on that Feb 01 10:26:14 also, if you're paranoid, you might want to turn the A off anyway to avoid telling Global Locate where you are ;) Feb 01 10:26:17 but you can use any server, not only global locate ones Feb 01 10:26:56 its supposedly standard protocol SUPL Feb 01 10:26:56 I wasn't clear on that either (that what kind of protocol the agps daemon uses; supposed it may've been tied to GL) Feb 01 10:27:03 righto Feb 01 10:28:12 makes the daemon that tiny bit easier to replace ;P Feb 01 10:29:22 mjr: see http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002600.html Feb 01 10:29:46 well.. that FIC pays part is implied Feb 01 10:30:12 aloril: Thanks for keeping track of the community list. I'm too lazy to read all of them.. ;) Feb 01 10:30:26 * aloril is way behind .. Feb 01 10:35:29 hehe reading all the messages on the lists is a full time job Feb 01 10:35:29 * mjr must say that "AGPS" has an automatic negative connotation for me too; "So, it needs assistance, huh?" Feb 01 10:35:37 but have to get over that :] Feb 01 10:46:09 * aloril wonders if this is better text: Feb 01 10:46:11 a week, 3 days 18:42:10 (10.78 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.78 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.78 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 10:47:02 it seems quite many thing "*any* developer" means "not available unless you are developer" Feb 01 10:47:11 s/thing/think/ Feb 01 10:47:11 aloril meant: it seems quite many think "*any* developer" means "not available unless you are developer" Feb 01 11:00:59 why not s/developer//g ;) Feb 01 11:01:21 oh well Feb 01 11:04:58 it's there so that people are aware that at that point it's targeted for developers, and not necessarily end-user-ready Feb 01 11:05:25 xkr47: hehe, well I still want to keep it implied that its mainly meant for developer while keeping clear that anybody can still get one Feb 01 11:05:45 yeah.. keep tuning :) Feb 01 11:06:25 * xkr47 wonders if it will _require_ developer skills to get started Feb 01 11:06:47 xkr47: for plain phone usage: probably not Feb 01 11:52:32 about AT commands: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002708.html Feb 01 11:52:40 (for controlling GSM part) Feb 01 11:53:37 hmm... "There are some vendor-specific, proprietary TI AT commands which will remain undocumented." Feb 01 11:54:16 + earlier mail by Sean: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002653.html Feb 01 11:54:43 "Sure. We're using a Ti Calypso chipset. Unfortunately this stuff is all under _super_ NDA :-( Feb 01 11:54:43 AKA: If I post a datasheet I would get the CEO of FIC fired within 24 hours ;-)" Feb 01 11:55:00 wild guess: those undocumented AT commands allow reflashing Feb 01 11:56:02 or maybe something else that is actually illegal (except for testing) Feb 01 11:57:24 * aloril guesses reflashing alone is illegal in many countries Feb 01 12:00:33 aloril: changing IMEI is illegal in uk Feb 01 12:02:39 XorA: OK, so no surprise its under "super NDA" ;-) Feb 01 12:03:25 aloril: one function is probably read ROM, GSM algorithm isnt allowed to be read Feb 01 12:03:48 its NSA stuff Feb 01 12:05:06 XorA: no? isn't GSM algorithm published one? Feb 01 12:05:42 it's know and published i think Feb 01 12:06:28 i've read about it at some docs for gsm card clonning by CCC Feb 01 12:06:31 its known and published, but GSM organisation still thinks its a trade secret Feb 01 12:06:42 same as DeCSS Feb 01 12:08:03 hehe, wasn't there something about it being deliberately weakened so that French 'NSA' can snoop? Feb 01 12:08:32 bah, the "NSA" just turn off cell encryption Feb 01 12:10:05 it might be possible to use phone microphone for listening although you're not calling anybody Feb 01 12:10:17 some AT command via gsm network :p Feb 01 12:10:33 well on Neo, just ssh in Feb 01 12:10:39 `:) Feb 01 12:14:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM#GSM_security (and then links to A5/1, A5/2): interesting Feb 01 12:16:06 join #linux Feb 01 12:16:14 specifically: Security researcher Ross Anderson reported in 1994 that "there was a terrific row between the NATO signals agencies in the mid 1980's over whether GSM encryption should be strong or not. The Germans said it should be, as they shared a long border with the Evil Empire; but the other countries didn't feel this way, and the algorithm as now fielded is a French design." Feb 01 12:18:12 why is it anytime any media wants a quote about security, they ask Ross Anderson?... i mean, he's good, but he's not that good Feb 01 12:18:56 robtaylor: because most security people tend to be hermit freak mathematicians Feb 01 12:19:15 XorA: thats true, and Ross likes the limelight, it means he gets more funding... Feb 01 12:20:01 My friend once asked me to look over his simple optimisation to the RSA algorith, he handed me 8 A4 pages of maths Feb 01 12:20:34 XorA: how's it going btw? I remember ages (years?) ago you were looking for a job in embedded linux. I take it you got one? :) Feb 01 12:20:49 robtaylor: I work at wolfson now Feb 01 12:21:17 robtaylor: and Im just finishing audio drivers for Neo :-) Feb 01 12:21:25 Wolfson Microelectronics ? Feb 01 12:21:27 cool Feb 01 12:21:30 robtaylor: yeah Feb 01 12:22:07 hrw|gone: Nice blog post you linked at 11:52. Great rant about the scrollbars :) Feb 01 12:22:11 linux driver development? Feb 01 12:22:41 robtaylor: yes Feb 01 12:22:50 XorA: very cool :) Feb 01 12:24:35 XorA: with "changing IMEI is illegal in uk" were you thinking about reflashing or that there would be AT command to change IMEI? Feb 01 12:25:52 aloril: probably a command to write to flash Feb 01 12:26:14 aloril: or a serial eeprom Feb 01 12:26:37 its a stupid law enacted to harrass people who run phone fixing shops Feb 01 12:33:41 but they change them anyway... Feb 01 12:34:01 law is there just for obeying Feb 01 12:38:45 * XorA sings some Judas Priest Feb 01 12:41:37 that's good rap Feb 01 12:42:09 > If anyone knows of a (non-compliant) powered hub that supplies upstream power, please note it on the wiki. I have a feeling that this will be a much-demanded accessory in a month or so. Feb 01 12:42:09 We're working on something like this now. I'm not sure when I can sell it, but it's on my To Do list. Feb 01 12:42:11 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002746.html Feb 01 12:42:17 great news Feb 01 12:43:10 lookin Feb 01 12:43:12 and mornin :-) Feb 01 12:43:15 well... it's a very easy hack Feb 01 12:43:28 i think you can buy GSM decoders for a few 10K these days Feb 01 12:43:34 not legal to operate but... Feb 01 12:43:50 maybe you could even build your own Feb 01 12:45:21 does network keep encoding of voice or will it reencode it if needed? (I guess later) Feb 01 12:46:07 if we had better access to GSM, we could let it encode sounds then encrypt it with stronger algorithm and then encrypt with A5/1 (GSM encryption) Feb 01 12:46:23 assuming network part doesn't want to decode voice Feb 01 12:46:31 use gprs for that Feb 01 12:46:56 seems easier, might even work with J2ME handsets Feb 01 12:47:18 how is GSM voice latency vs VoIP GPRS latency? Feb 01 12:47:28 i think gprs latency sucks far and by large Feb 01 12:47:44 but you can use GSM as 9600bps CSD channel Feb 01 12:47:51 that should be plenty for speex Feb 01 12:48:08 yeah, if you want voip, you want a data call with reserved bandwidth, not gprs Feb 01 12:48:33 with gprs you can do that push-to-talk thing, which was talked about on list, and encrypt how you wish (gpg suggested) Feb 01 12:49:26 speex over openssl over CSD -> crypt call Feb 01 12:49:32 *nod* Feb 01 12:49:48 should work fine Feb 01 12:51:27 OK, so CSD latency == GSM voice latency (basically) (though I guess with GSM voice you have more bandwidth, but then is speex is better codec? (or its about "its enough good")) Feb 01 12:52:07 http://www.speex.org/samples/ Feb 01 12:52:40 6kbps could work Feb 01 12:52:51 tho 8 really wouldnt hurt Feb 01 12:53:42 * aloril wonders why CSD doesn't offer same speed as GSM voice offers Feb 01 12:54:00 probably gsm voice is lossily compressed Feb 01 12:56:24 buz: European GSM 06.10 standard for full-rate speech transcoding, prI-ETS 300 036,uses residual pulse excitation/long-term prediction coding at 13 kbit/s. Feb 01 12:56:41 mhh then why is CSD only 9.6 Feb 01 12:57:02 Not udp? Feb 01 12:57:49 I've mostly been playing with umts, and the packet loss is horrible Feb 01 12:58:11 hmm.. GSM voice can also be 6kb/s, then CSD is in 'middle' Feb 01 12:59:19 mickeyl: changed counter so that it now counts to 2007-02-12 00:00:00 CST - 1s/infinity instead of 2007-02-11 00:00:00 UTC Feb 01 12:59:33 hehe, good Feb 01 12:59:34 mickeyl: I guess it has better chance of being 'right' now? Feb 01 12:59:42 yeah Feb 01 13:00:11 additional 1.25 days for you and others ;-) Feb 01 13:00:17 (for source code release) Feb 01 13:02:51 counter Feb 01 13:02:51 a week, 3 days 16:25:28 (10.68 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.68 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.68 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 13:03:10 do w e know what microsd sizes are supported now? Feb 01 13:04:00 32gb Feb 01 13:04:14 so sdhc is ok? Feb 01 13:07:12 openmoko isn't based on kde or gnome? Feb 01 13:07:29 gtk Feb 01 13:08:00 hmm.. CST 23:59:59 is actually next day 08:00 AM in Finland (and even more in Taiwan, so not anymore Sunday there) Feb 01 13:09:11 so the gtk themes are compatible? Feb 01 13:10:28 l3010o: I think kde/gnome use too much flash space (for internal 64MiB) Feb 01 13:11:25 l3010o: I heard that its stock (or almost stock) gtk+ 2.6.10 Feb 01 13:12:04 see Roadmap link in topic Feb 01 13:12:30 KDE/Gnome GUI does not work on a cellphone. Feb 01 13:15:07 is it possible to install other OSes on neo? Feb 01 13:15:51 IIRC the phone itself supports also winmobile, but not sure Feb 01 13:16:11 porting some other free os should be possible given the example Feb 01 13:16:55 at the moment there are persons at FIC working on OpenMoko and LaF0rge ('linus'), mickeyl ('debian'), XorA (sound) outside FIC, I wonder if there are any other than these 3 outside FIC Feb 01 13:17:09 l3010o: I guess it won't take long before some BSD is ported Feb 01 13:18:49 aloril: mickeyl has nothing to do with debian and LaF0rge do all system level not only kernel Feb 01 13:19:23 stefan_schmidt: yeah, I just picked 'some distro' ;-) Feb 01 13:19:31 aloril, how about the familiar project? Feb 01 13:19:46 stefan_schmidt: they potentially could work on a cellphone :) Feb 01 13:20:05 * mickeyl is into Mandriva Feb 01 13:21:01 l3010o: Not sure if your really like to port use familar on it, but you can try it. Feb 01 13:21:37 stefan_schmidt, just curious abt them :p Feb 01 13:22:14 there is no benefit in using Familiar Linux Feb 01 13:22:20 Familiar Linux is an OE-produced distribution Feb 01 13:22:24 so is OpenMoko Feb 01 13:22:36 if you're into GPE; install GPE on your Neo Feb 01 13:23:08 mickeyl, whts the main difference between GPE and openmoko? Feb 01 13:23:41 gpe is larger Feb 01 13:23:42 :) Feb 01 13:23:59 gpe contains a lot of cool apps Feb 01 13:23:59 mickeyl, with similar functions? Feb 01 13:24:00 however they grew historically Feb 01 13:24:03 and it shows in some cases Feb 01 13:24:19 OpenMoko aims to produce a more "integrated" (for whatever that means) solution Feb 01 13:24:30 more look&feel guidlines and stuff Feb 01 13:24:44 mickeyl, that means openmoko is going to replace GPE? Feb 01 13:24:52 i wouldn't go so far Feb 01 13:25:03 however it might be that GPE apps get OpenMoko interfaces eventually Feb 01 13:25:24 or GPE replaces OpenMoko, who knows. it's up to us (the community) to decide on a system Feb 01 13:25:31 i just saw the screenshots of GPE, and it looks old Feb 01 13:25:49 i just hope that it won't be "freedom of choice" in a sense that we have 100s of non-matching apps Feb 01 13:25:57 all half finished Feb 01 13:26:14 that's the curse of the ipaq and zaurus world until now Feb 01 13:26:29 it seems that handheld os is becoming the desktop ones, with many distros? Feb 01 13:26:34 It's up to us to change this Feb 01 13:26:58 Well, having look and feel easily comdifiable by changing your root GtkVBOX to an OpenMokoMainVBOX (or whatever you called it) Feb 01 13:27:13 should help enforce the look and feel Feb 01 13:27:17 hopefully it will be that easy :-) Feb 01 13:27:41 i thk normal users in the mass market weighs the look and feel very much Feb 01 13:27:48 I have to be honest, my first port of call will be the new OpenMoko Gtk widgets Feb 01 13:29:03 let's put it that way: in my opinion, the mobile linux world is redoing the same evolution as the desktop world. honestly there is not much more than KDE and GNOME now (yes, i know, lots of tiny other things) whereas we had much more fragmentation a decade ago. I think we are in the same way in mobile Linux, but just a couple of years later than desktop Linux. Feb 01 13:29:06 So the good news is Feb 01 13:29:10 * noidd wonders if shippers in Tiawan work on Sundays Feb 01 13:29:11 We will eventually get there :) Feb 01 13:29:25 OT: Any redhat/centos admin can tell how to enable to enable services during systemstart the redhat way? I don't have a chkconfig on this box. Feb 01 13:29:28 depends if you believe the desktop made it there :-P Feb 01 13:29:40 desktop is not there either Feb 01 13:29:44 but has advance Feb 01 13:29:46 :) Feb 01 13:29:53 * noidd looks at /usr/lib Feb 01 13:30:09 xforms, wxwindows, qt, gtk1, gtk2, fltk Feb 01 13:30:09 look at the good things, not the bad things Feb 01 13:30:11 dbus Feb 01 13:30:18 inotify Feb 01 13:30:25 glibc Feb 01 13:30:31 heh, nearly forgot - motif :-P Feb 01 13:30:56 Yup - I see that. Feb 01 13:31:09 btw, I love the look of dbus - I spent some time digging through the docs yesterday Feb 01 13:31:09 bottom-up standardization always takes much longer than top-down Feb 01 13:31:11 but it's free Feb 01 13:31:21 looks like CORBA but might actually work :-P Feb 01 13:31:25 yeah, dbus is quite good nowadays Feb 01 13:31:44 the c++ interface still suffers a bit, but that's just a question of time Feb 01 13:32:50 thats just a language binding Feb 01 13:33:03 i'm sure someone can abstract or improve on that. Feb 01 13:33:44 * mickeyl can't wait to do C++ again Feb 01 13:34:11 I don't have a taste for C++ Feb 01 13:34:20 too low risk / reward. Feb 01 13:34:38 for me, personally. Feb 01 13:34:46 I guess I don't like working hard :-) Feb 01 13:35:04 mickeyl: Well, there are other interesting ways for masochism, you don't need to hurt the world at large with your C++ programs ;) Feb 01 13:35:14 have you ever used glade ? Feb 01 13:35:30 sure Feb 01 13:35:35 I used to use it mainly for prototyping UIs Feb 01 13:35:49 I picked it up again last week and its come on a lot since I last used it. Feb 01 13:35:58 glade3 looks promising Feb 01 13:36:06 together with the new GtkBuilder architecture in Gtk Feb 01 13:36:17 I'm not sure I have the skills to add the openmoko widgets to that project but its on my list to try. Feb 01 13:36:25 GtkBuilder? Feb 01 13:36:28 man, I am behind Feb 01 13:36:31 hitting google Feb 01 13:39:48 noidd: if you count it as 2007-02-11 23:59:59 CST, then its Monday already at Taiwan ;-) Feb 01 13:44:17 rock, heh Feb 01 13:44:25 * noidd looks at the counter behind him Feb 01 13:44:27 9 days Feb 01 13:44:44 till the first day Feb 01 13:44:47 counter Feb 01 13:44:48 a week, 3 days 15:43:32 (10.66 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.66 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.66 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 13:44:59 hey, how did that happen Feb 01 13:45:02 I lost a day ? Feb 01 13:45:26 did you add another 24 hours aloril? Feb 01 13:45:29 or did I miscount Feb 01 13:45:40 He changed from CET Feb 01 13:46:15 ok, incrementing my calendar :-P Feb 01 13:46:37 noidd: changed from UTC to CST and also changed from 00:00:00 to 23:59:59.99999999... Feb 01 13:47:27 press release was in CST and few minutes over 23:59:59, so maybe more likely to be correct for source release too Feb 01 13:47:49 noidd: added 1.25 days Feb 01 13:48:06 totureous Feb 01 13:48:42 * stefan_schmidt dreams about express shiping from taiwan to germany in one day. :) Feb 01 13:49:05 Man, I would pay extra to have that happen Feb 01 13:49:22 * noidd is chomping at the bit Feb 01 13:49:31 heh Feb 01 13:50:18 mickeyl: How long a packet from tw to de takes typically? Feb 01 13:51:12 iirc something like 4 to 5 days, but i'm not sure Feb 01 13:51:45 LaF0rge gets all the parcels lately :) Feb 01 13:52:51 UPS / FedEx exactly 2 days Feb 01 13:52:57 ok Feb 01 13:53:09 * stefan_schmidt hopes to get it within the week Feb 01 13:53:10 :) Feb 01 13:53:31 stefan_schmidt: really depends on your country Feb 01 13:53:39 stefan_schmidt: i get almost everything fast except US stuff Feb 01 13:53:48 This would allow us to hack one week on it before leaving to fosdem. We like to bring something for openmoko with us... :) Feb 01 13:53:56 stefan_schmidt: for that for some reason the post office works quite weird Feb 01 13:54:10 Well, its possible to get 2 days Feb 01 13:54:15 Kaloz: heh, all stuff from us is weird. ;) Feb 01 13:54:15 stefan_schmidt: like the package leaves the us by plane on saturday Feb 01 13:54:24 stefan_schmidt: and they claim the plane landed on wednesday :D Feb 01 13:54:36 or at least to get from US to Taipai Feb 01 13:54:42 other direction who knows. Feb 01 13:54:43 stefan_schmidt: i'm sure quite some military agencies would be interested in such a plane :) Feb 01 13:54:55 heh Feb 01 14:14:09 :-O Feb 01 14:14:14 too many people Feb 01 14:14:14 i'm sure they'd hate a encrypted speex over gsm though ;) Feb 01 14:14:15 :D Feb 01 14:14:23 nice to see that Feb 01 14:16:14 don't the regulations mandate the ability of law enforcement to tap in? Feb 01 14:17:23 little ot, does developers have higher priority to get the handset? Feb 01 14:18:10 counter Feb 01 14:18:11 a week, 3 days 15:10:09 (10.63 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.63 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.63 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 14:18:28 shantanoo: you can order as a developer (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days Feb 01 14:18:55 Stephmw: well, they cant prevent you from sending arbitrary streams over a data connection now can they? Feb 01 14:18:55 (2007-03-11) Feb 01 14:18:57 even Feb 01 14:18:58 my bad Feb 01 14:19:05 it's no longer real GSm if you do that... Feb 01 14:19:24 and they can still tap the raw data stream Feb 01 14:19:32 wont necessarily make much sense to them though ;) Feb 01 14:19:50 if i haven't developed anything specific on linux embeded but i would like to develop, in that case am considered as developer? Feb 01 14:20:04 probably not Feb 01 14:20:10 developers have already been selected anyhow Feb 01 14:20:16 you can order one on 11th march Feb 01 14:20:30 on 11th it will be still for developers? Feb 01 14:20:38 or to be developers Feb 01 14:20:44 or to be end users Feb 01 14:20:58 anyone who has courage can order it in march Feb 01 14:21:03 for end users it will be in september Feb 01 14:25:09 Sean?? Feb 01 14:26:35 Seems to be a bit too scary for him to see all those nicks ;) Feb 01 14:27:20 We need a killer app to wow end users in September. Something that ordinary phones don't have by virtue of being products not of community but of restrictive companies. Feb 01 14:27:56 FreedomApp Feb 01 14:28:17 Is that a real thing? Feb 01 14:28:29 i don't know; i'm merely being facetious Feb 01 14:28:33 :P Feb 01 14:29:11 My lateral thinking hat is at the cleaners. But I'm sure we have lots of lateral thinkers in the community. Feb 01 14:30:35 How about some social networking thing for kids? They're into peer groups. Feb 01 14:30:54 the phone is way over priced for kids Feb 01 14:30:57 besides they want cams Feb 01 14:31:23 i think killer app must revolve around the gps Feb 01 14:31:30 True on the cam, not true on the price. They're wearing trainers that cost nearly as much as the Neo. Feb 01 14:31:34 because thats really a rather rare feature still Feb 01 14:31:49 thats because their phones are free with contract Feb 01 14:31:53 buz: I agree, gps is it Feb 01 14:32:01 some people at my workplace have expensive smartphones with gps Feb 01 14:32:09 they use them for navigation when they're driving Feb 01 14:32:10 Even just as a simple gps-logger Feb 01 14:32:35 That you easily can sync to the comp later Feb 01 14:32:41 OH Feb 01 14:32:41 I'm talking about mass-market, for september. Gotta stop thinking like the techies we are for that market. Feb 01 14:32:58 well Feb 01 14:33:14 according to whois, sean is in China. Feb 01 14:33:18 lucky man. Feb 01 14:33:22 navigation is a killer feature, if people can come up with an open source navigation app Feb 01 14:33:30 the biggest problem is map data Feb 01 14:33:40 Man, I'd love to spend some time in China and the surrounding countries Feb 01 14:33:44 * noidd thinks of food. Feb 01 14:33:47 I like the photo apps that can sync gps coordinates with the exif timestamps in the photos Feb 01 14:33:59 CM: that would be cool. Feb 01 14:34:01 So you can have when and where the pic was taken. :) Feb 01 14:34:03 noidd: real chinese food isnt anything like what you get sold as chinese food in the west Feb 01 14:34:10 Or maybe not, dunno. FIC say they want it to sell in mass market in September. Maybe that's not necessary? It's up to FIC really. Will the project die, no Neo v2, if the mass-market doesn't buy the phone? Feb 01 14:34:13 Ycros: It already exists :) Feb 01 14:34:20 or if your phone gets stolen, it can send you its coordinates Feb 01 14:34:26 CM: i know it exists. :) Feb 01 14:34:35 a map with your friends moving around on it? Feb 01 14:34:47 buz: I know. I lived near Chinatown for years Feb 01 14:34:47 stalker's paradise Feb 01 14:34:49 (GRPS cost is gonna kill you but for people paying 3E for 20s ringtone?) Feb 01 14:34:59 Clint: That's a great name for the app ;) Feb 01 14:35:05 authentic chinese food is REALLY hard to find in my part of the US Feb 01 14:35:13 one restaurant in the whole ciuty that gets close. Feb 01 14:35:19 oh and find a way to play videos Feb 01 14:35:24 That's one possible angle: "Free Ringtones For Life!" Feb 01 14:35:38 so they can watch their MMS smut Feb 01 14:35:47 I'm a great fan of MMS Feb 01 14:35:54 i still believe teenagers are the main customer for handy porn Feb 01 14:36:01 or more accurately, I'm a heavy user of MMS Feb 01 14:36:25 it's doable in new york, dc, and san francisco Feb 01 14:36:34 find a way to have the neo help cheat at school Feb 01 14:36:40 last year i've sent 3393 sms and 32 mms... Feb 01 14:36:42 and you'll sell them by the 100 thousands Feb 01 14:37:25 My local Chinese restaurants business card says: "We also serve REAL chinese food". Feb 01 14:37:44 making the obvious distinction between Americanized sugary gloop and reality Feb 01 14:37:57 i actually prefer chop suey to the real stuff Feb 01 14:38:11 noidd: what is the difference? Feb 01 14:38:24 much more veggies in real chinese food Feb 01 14:39:00 From what I've heard it doesn't taste good Feb 01 14:39:01 (i still think stir frying salad is a crime) Feb 01 14:39:52 i didnt particularly care for real chinese food when i was in HK Feb 01 14:40:06 I prefer real chinese too.. forget the sugar, load me up with chilis Feb 01 14:40:25 mhh isnt chilis more thai than chinese? Feb 01 14:40:36 mmm, thai. Feb 01 14:40:40 I'm in australia Feb 01 14:40:50 so I don't know if we get the same "fake" stuff like in america Feb 01 14:40:59 Maybe but you can always ask for them to add some Feb 01 14:41:06 sure Feb 01 14:41:07 And there's always that chili paste sauce Feb 01 14:41:32 i dont think thats chinese at all Feb 01 14:41:53 sichuan province uses a lot of chili Feb 01 14:42:03 point Feb 01 14:42:09 i actually like sichuan style the best Feb 01 14:42:13 not as bland as many others Feb 01 14:42:15 http://www.quickspice.com/scstore/images/sambal-olik_lg.jpg Feb 01 14:42:22 I always see that stuff in every chinese place Feb 01 14:42:51 Sambal is a condiment used in Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Sri Lanka, made from a variety of peppers, Feb 01 14:43:03 but in some ways, it's the asian version of ketchup Feb 01 14:43:28 i think i'm addicted to it Feb 01 14:43:55 hehe i even put it over pasta Feb 01 14:44:08 me too Feb 01 14:44:20 (really the only way to make pasta taste like something= Feb 01 14:44:38 my pastas are weird though. i like to crush up a scotch bonnet per serving of tomato sauce. Feb 01 14:44:58 that seems reasonable Feb 01 14:45:18 it also means no one steals my leftovers Feb 01 14:46:48 another chillihead Feb 01 14:47:11 I've been putting chilli paste/sauce all over everything recently Feb 01 14:47:12 it's delicious Feb 01 14:47:15 I also like sweet chilli Feb 01 14:47:37 yikes sweet chili sauce Feb 01 14:47:39 Yeah.. it was hilarious when i went to a caribbean grocery store and tried to buy two twelve packs of scotch bonnet Feb 01 14:47:44 basically sugar syrup with some chili Feb 01 14:47:55 cashier saw it, eyes went wide and he said "no no no! not for you!" Feb 01 14:48:09 buz: yeah, it's weird, but I like it Feb 01 14:49:59 http://www.abc.net.au/canberra/stories/s1338479.htm <--- sweet chilli recipe Feb 01 14:50:01 simple syrup and chili eh.. interesting Feb 01 14:50:30 there's a company that sells chili-infused maple syrup Feb 01 14:50:59 that's the only thing more wrong than caffeinated hot sauce Feb 01 14:51:30 leventhal: bah, it's delicious. Feb 01 14:51:46 it's sweet and hot at the same time Feb 01 14:51:46 Ycros: no, I mean the chili-infused maple syrup Feb 01 14:51:51 oh, right Feb 01 14:52:01 that sounds like it could be delicious as well Feb 01 14:52:10 I like maple syrup Feb 01 14:52:40 i dont like sugary stuff in general Feb 01 14:52:47 maybe except for chocolate and ice cream Feb 01 14:52:53 going to a maple farm has ruined me towards almost all store bought maple syrup Feb 01 14:53:00 mmm, chocolate Feb 01 14:53:01 and stay away with chili chocolate, that's just wrong Feb 01 14:53:13 my mother likes dark chocolate, the darker the better Feb 01 14:53:27 mhh i like dark, but no more than 65% cacoa Feb 01 14:53:30 I don't like it so much, too bitter Feb 01 14:53:33 70+ is just too damn hard Feb 01 14:53:44 oh she likes it Feb 01 14:53:44 hehe Feb 01 14:53:56 I like Nutella, the hazelnut spread Feb 01 14:53:58 delicious. Feb 01 14:54:02 and nutty Feb 01 14:54:05 cant stand the stuff Feb 01 14:54:14 i dont put sweet stuff on bread anyway Feb 01 14:54:18 bleugh Feb 01 14:54:45 then again in most of the world, there is no bread Feb 01 14:54:52 just plastic foam sold as bread Feb 01 14:54:55 you don't have to put it on bread Feb 01 14:54:56 :P Feb 01 14:55:04 oh i like proper bread Feb 01 14:55:07 but it's like jam on bread or something Feb 01 14:55:09 the darker the better Feb 01 14:55:10 I hear nutella is good in oatmeal Feb 01 14:55:16 yeah i cant stand jam either ;) Feb 01 14:55:22 I like sour dough bread Feb 01 14:55:23 heh Feb 01 14:57:30 leventhal: How different is a scotch bonnet from a habanero? Feb 01 14:57:50 not much according to wikipedia Feb 01 14:57:55 slithg difference in taste Feb 01 14:58:07 CM: Touch sweeter.. and the top end of scotch bonnet intersects with the low end of habenaro on the scoville scale Feb 01 14:58:18 mm jam, raspberry is my favorite jam, followed by strawberry Feb 01 14:58:21 leventhal: Ok, thanks Feb 01 14:58:41 They're a lot easier to come by here for some reason Feb 01 14:58:41 np Feb 01 14:59:03 Just remember my dad getting blisters on his fingers after chopping 3 habaneros for a big stew Feb 01 14:59:22 heh Feb 01 14:59:31 Yeah.. that sort of thing happens, heh. Feb 01 14:59:58 For really spicy stuff I have cheap disposable plastic gloves Feb 01 15:00:10 Otherwise I wind up with red, swollen hands. Feb 01 15:01:02 I have some kind of habanero tabasco at home Feb 01 15:01:17 It's mango in it too I think. Tasty anyway :) Feb 01 15:01:41 mmm.. mango.. Feb 01 15:01:54 http://www.tabasco.com/tabasco_tent/pepper_sauce/habanero_pepper_sauce.cfm Feb 01 15:02:25 My cousin is mad about chilis, got it from him. :) Feb 01 15:03:48 That stuff is good on hawaiian pizza Feb 01 15:03:49 * CM is starting to dream about a chili-theme for OpenMoko ;) Feb 01 15:04:00 unfortunately it's only 7000-8000 scoville Feb 01 15:04:07 Only "hot" icons Feb 01 15:07:31 I wish I brought my hot sauces to work.. I'm craving something spicy now, lol Feb 01 15:07:51 argh all this talk makes me hungry Feb 01 15:08:12 Yeah, theming is really important Feb 01 15:08:14 eye-candy sells phones ;-D Feb 01 15:22:13 i think eye candy in form of industrial design of the form itself sells even more Feb 01 15:25:55 brushed titanium casings? :-) Feb 01 15:26:22 WRU modular cellphones Feb 01 15:26:28 meaning modular hardware Feb 01 15:35:46 Hi Feb 01 15:56:27 buz: morse communication between peers during exam (vibration + tap screen) ;-) Feb 01 15:58:48 receiving is easy, but how to send morse without anybody realizing is harder Feb 01 16:01:33 i've seen it done with a switch placed under a toe Feb 01 16:02:09 hmm.. yeah, does neo have mic input? Feb 01 16:02:34 * aloril has seen that question often in ML, no answer so far Feb 01 16:03:02 i think they already stated it has a jack for a hands free kit Feb 01 16:03:59 ah, then it should be ok: connect wires to that... though if it becomes popular, then shoe searches will become common too ;-) Feb 01 16:04:50 or simple collect neos at start of exam and give back when over Feb 01 16:04:54 s/simple/simply/ Feb 01 16:04:55 aloril meant: or simply collect neos at start of exam and give back when over Feb 01 16:04:59 that's what mine does Feb 01 16:05:31 they also take digital watches, ipods, calculators.. Feb 01 16:06:24 counter Feb 01 16:06:24 a week, 3 days 13:21:55 (10.56 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.56 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.56 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 16:06:30 the rule is no electronics on your person at all. they don't exactly search folks but if they see anything, zero on the exam and an interview with the dean to see if they kick you out. Feb 01 16:06:32 the day all questions are answered :-) Feb 01 16:06:43 hmm.. gumstix hidden in shoe ;-) Feb 01 16:06:50 there's an idea Feb 01 16:07:10 * XorA could get a whole mini-ITX inside his boot soles Feb 01 16:07:38 casino cheats lead the way in concealable computers Feb 01 16:07:53 leventhal: yeah Feb 01 16:08:18 i was interested in the gadgetry they came up with for roulette cheats Feb 01 16:08:34 once somebody has eye implant -> might not be possible to enforce anymore Feb 01 16:08:53 gadgets to cheat in casinos are legal in the UK :-) Feb 01 16:09:22 hey koen|gprs Feb 01 16:09:25 hey koen|gprs_ Feb 01 16:09:30 don't know about that here.. but i do remember the casino in niagara swiping my driver's license without my consent, which is illegal Feb 01 16:10:40 leventhal: I suspect in the legal world you probably consented by walking into their property Feb 01 16:11:39 nah, requires informed consent to give up all the details contained in the magstripe Feb 01 16:11:42 hey XorA Feb 01 16:11:51 and the sign next to the guard didn't say anything about swiping my card Feb 01 16:12:12 it's been ruled illegal to do at bars Feb 01 16:12:37 leventhal: unfortuneately in these circumstances they tend to have a bigger legal team :-) Feb 01 16:12:42 uh huh Feb 01 16:12:54 burning the place down, thats the way to go Feb 01 16:12:57 if they had told me they were swiping my card i would have turned around and gone to a different casino Feb 01 16:13:29 instead i just kinda looked sick, then went in to check out the blackjack tables, then went out and crossed the street to hooters Feb 01 16:13:48 mmmmmm, bewbies Feb 01 16:14:56 uh huh. my wings were sub-par but the waitress apologised profusely. her apology left me slack jawed it was so good. Feb 01 16:14:58 hi a"moko"s Feb 01 16:15:36 print your own casing Feb 01 16:16:26 * aloril wonders if this would allow that: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/09/2239206 Feb 01 16:18:36 that thing is very cool but the results are often.. not production quality Feb 01 16:18:38 http://fabathome.org/wiki/uploads/thumb/6/6b/WatchBand_001.jpg/800px-WatchBand_001.jpg Feb 01 16:20:00 related 3D printers: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002672.html Feb 01 16:21:25 leventhal: yeah, I guess its quite early, but still I see start of "personal self build 3D printers" similar to 70s for "personal computers build by hobbyist" Feb 01 16:21:32 me too Feb 01 16:22:29 we need hooters in the UK Feb 01 16:22:43 * aloril thinks many have missed difference between copying and stealing Feb 01 16:23:01 should become more clear and/or hotter topic with advent of 3D printers ;-) Feb 01 16:23:13 " Feb 01 16:23:13 "Imagine typing in page after page of DATA statements for it, copied out of the back of Fabricate! magazine. Ah, those were the days.... Feb 01 16:27:18 i'm building a 3d printer at the moment :D Feb 01 16:27:38 has that linux support? Feb 01 16:35:45 thats the difference between mailing list and this channel: Feb 01 16:35:52 ML: "Unless of course you don't mind me coming over and 'sharing' your refrigerator." Feb 01 16:36:04 this: "i'm building a 3d printer at the moment :D" Feb 01 16:36:30 3D printers don't get really interesting till you can print 3D printers with them. Feb 01 16:37:02 SpeedEvil: yeah, that's the 'ultimate' Feb 01 16:37:13 grey goo comes shortly after Feb 01 16:37:15 hmm Feb 01 16:37:20 printing girlfriends would be interesting. Feb 01 16:37:22 Well - the ultimate is general purpose nanotech. Feb 01 16:37:39 spikeb only if they are sterile, could get really expensive otherwise Feb 01 16:37:44 * aloril guesses that time from "hobbyist self build 3D printers" to "3D printer in every home" like computers now will be shorter Feb 01 16:37:48 haha buz great point Feb 01 16:38:11 tech for 3d printing seems vastly harder than computer to me Feb 01 16:38:21 It depends. Feb 01 16:38:26 It's not really for simple ones. Feb 01 16:38:36 i mean, sure 3d silicone printers arent hard Feb 01 16:38:40 but multi material ones? Feb 01 16:38:56 Yeah - if you want it general purpose, that gets hard fast. Feb 01 16:39:10 Especially if you want the parts to be more than decorative or light duty. Feb 01 16:39:13 the whole point of PCs was that they were general purpose Feb 01 16:39:19 might take a while before printing good CPU's is possible ;-) Feb 01 16:39:29 3D printers that can print a IC engine for example is hard. Feb 01 16:39:54 a 3d mill to cut one out of steel seems more feasible Feb 01 16:40:21 True. Feb 01 16:40:24 * spikeb prefers his mills to be 2d Feb 01 16:40:30 3d printing with metals would be interesting Feb 01 16:40:30 buz: well.. still, PCs are by factor of 1000x worse in energy usage than ASIC made for purpose Feb 01 16:40:34 thinking of it, that actually exists Feb 01 16:40:58 theres a german (IIRC) company that uses lasers to put layers of metal dust together Feb 01 16:41:00 really cool stuff Feb 01 16:41:24 so.. if 3D printer is factor of 1000x worse than special fabs doing latest chips it would be similarly generic ;-) Feb 01 16:41:36 i have stumbled into geek heaven. horray. Feb 01 16:42:11 would that mean i get to print a 486 now? Feb 01 16:42:39 thats about 1mio transistors as opposed to the nearly 1billion in latest cpus Feb 01 16:42:48 hmm that'd be cool. Feb 01 16:43:02 or maybe we can print fiats instead of ferraris Feb 01 16:43:07 (not sure id want that) Feb 01 16:44:17 buz: hmm.. good point, I wonder what is current ratio of 3D printer accuracy/fab accuracy Feb 01 16:44:39 the metal dust things were truly impressive Feb 01 16:44:47 quite likely better than most 3d metal mills Feb 01 16:45:06 and fully automatic Feb 01 16:45:38 oh the procesds is called laser sintering Feb 01 16:46:04 * aloril just guesses, but maybe 3D printing of 'chips' is at 4004 level? or is it even worse? Feb 01 16:46:19 * aloril does remember something being done though Feb 01 16:46:19 well technically chips are still printed i guess Feb 01 16:46:42 buz: yes, but I mean using generic 3D printer ;-) Feb 01 16:46:43 only with reaaaallly expensive printers Feb 01 16:46:54 http://www.eos.info/home.html?L=1 Feb 01 16:47:08 mhh that can do plastic an metal Feb 01 16:48:44 You can leverage this effect by integrating several functions into the product design. For example, you can integrate movable hinges. These are manufactured ? ready to use ? in a single laser-sintering process. Feb 01 16:48:50 thats f****** impressive Feb 01 16:49:00 bzzt, use of leverage as a verb. Feb 01 16:49:20 that might print that ICE, right there Feb 01 16:49:50 now where can i order the house printer Feb 01 16:50:20 I saw one of those on some website Feb 01 16:50:37 buz: reprap.org is making an open source printer Feb 01 16:50:52 mine is a dual-material one, we're using inkjet technology for the print head, it'll be able to print up to 60cm^3 Feb 01 16:51:13 laser seems more promising than inkjet to me Feb 01 16:51:57 the 3 axes are controlled by worm ears on stepper motors, all driven by AVRs, connected to a linux + ARM sbc Feb 01 16:52:23 mmm.. AVRs Feb 01 16:52:33 how does it do metal with "These extruders produce fine filaments of their working material with a paste-like consistenc" Feb 01 16:52:42 http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3238 Feb 01 16:52:49 they must have different metals than i usually see Feb 01 16:52:59 there are low melting point metals that are normally used Feb 01 16:53:17 mhh stuff made out of tin isnt really very durable Feb 01 16:53:24 and lead doesnt come near me Feb 01 16:53:44 the printer melts the material, and deposits it in tiny blobs Feb 01 16:53:50 its not lead based Feb 01 16:53:58 all rohs compliant i think Feb 01 16:54:03 well that was just an idea for low melting point metals Feb 01 16:54:07 tin is RoHS Feb 01 16:54:11 whoa.. it can print metal? that's awesome! Feb 01 16:54:22 ah i got mail Feb 01 16:54:29 it wouldn't be very durable metal, but yes Feb 01 16:55:29 the self replicating thing i'll believe when i see it Feb 01 16:56:05 If you can get PCB printers to the $2500 range I'll build one Feb 01 16:56:22 gimme pcb + wave soldering Feb 01 16:56:33 yeah.. that would be awesome Feb 01 16:56:37 i think you could actually inkjet pcbs Feb 01 16:56:40 * aloril thinks metal 3D printing has existed at least 10 years Feb 01 16:56:50 just expensive machines ;-) Feb 01 16:56:51 there is conducive ink Feb 01 16:57:13 ours wont be able to 100% self replicate, but it'll be able to print out about 40-50% of the parts for building one Feb 01 16:58:41 hmm... pinting neo cases.... >:) Feb 01 17:02:45 hmm.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_freeform_fabrication says 0.005mm, that's about factor of 100x100x worse than chip fabs Feb 01 17:04:37 (or hobby printer: another factor of 20x20x worse) Feb 01 17:53:18 Evening guys. What's new? Feb 01 17:53:31 Oh, and girls! Feb 01 17:56:16 We've decided that the neo V3 needs to come with a star-trek replicator. Feb 01 17:56:45 SpeedEvil: we've given up on the V12? Feb 01 17:56:45 Oh, nice. :-) Feb 01 17:57:18 SpeedEvil - Will it come with a closed areplicatord ? ;o) Feb 01 17:57:58 :D Feb 01 17:58:53 Stephmw, hmm, I only wanted a v8, but 12 _is_ a bigger number, so... no! Feb 01 18:03:54 the 3d printer will make any number of v12 Feb 01 18:04:25 What's the difference between a 3d printer and a startrek replicator? Feb 01 18:05:55 reality Feb 01 18:06:11 Huh? Feb 01 18:06:31 Just answered your question :-) Feb 01 18:07:18 Hmm Feb 01 18:07:42 counter Feb 01 18:07:43 a week, 3 days 11:20:36 (10.47 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.47 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.47 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 18:08:51 Huh, has `counter` changed its timezone? Feb 01 18:10:01 Yeah, it was corrected by Mickey Feb 01 18:10:15 Ahh. Feb 01 18:10:38 apropos mickey: Did he give _any_ comment on the (a)gpsd issue? Feb 01 18:11:20 I had some thoughts on that last night. Feb 01 18:11:45 From inspection of the hammerhead GPS datasheet, it looks like the position determination is completely done in the gpsd Feb 01 18:11:55 Yes. He said that while we will certainly have access to the Hammerhead's interface, whether FIC would be able to disclose the details of talking to it was probably in a lot of doubt. Feb 01 18:12:27 It's actually illegal in many places to supply a device which can provide positions >1000Kt/20000ft Feb 01 18:12:39 This may be one of the reasons that gpsd is closed source. Feb 01 18:12:43 On the flipside. Feb 01 18:13:07 It looks like the hardware is dumb enough that it's likely to be fairly simple to crack. Feb 01 18:14:21 Hmm, I wonder, if it's illegal in .de. Feb 01 18:14:36 (I mean: providing those positions) Feb 01 18:14:37 I don't doubt that. What I dislike though is that it makes the phone less open than expected. We strongly believed at all the hardware accessible to the host SoC would be fully documented. Feb 01 18:14:44 Yeah. Feb 01 18:15:07 However, if the phone cannot legally be imported into major markets, because it's open. Feb 01 18:15:10 ... Feb 01 18:15:15 Morgret - Right, right. Feb 01 18:15:24 best hope this doesn't hurt too badly on the PR front. Feb 01 18:15:33 well.. you can replace that yourself later ;-) Feb 01 18:15:45 they were open about the nonfree agpsd from the start though Feb 01 18:16:15 well then it won't hurt any. Feb 01 18:16:18 so_solid_moo - Basicly: Yes. But it was not 100% clear, what the reason for the non-openness was. Feb 01 18:16:23 I mean if you can't have source included in Neo1973 sold, you can always download replacement Feb 01 18:16:34 You see, the problem is that seeing as it may not be open or openly documented after all, they might as well have included a closed wifi module in the same way. They said that they didn't because it conflicted with their position on openness. Well ... I see a conflict. Feb 01 18:16:37 Elrond: I don't think the reason matters; it's the freeness, and they were clear about that Feb 01 18:16:54 Morgret, i agree there actually Feb 01 18:17:08 especially considering the usefulness of wifi Feb 01 18:17:10 Morgret - I 99% agree. :) Feb 01 18:17:17 Now we have to ask them why no wifi ... seeing as the GPS is closed too. Feb 01 18:17:31 because the gps doesn't require a kernel driver Feb 01 18:17:38 non-free kernel wifi drivers aren't legal Feb 01 18:17:54 GSM doesn't require a kernel driver either. Feb 01 18:18:19 so_solid_moo - The wifi thing could happen in userspace. Feb 01 18:18:34 Elrond: sure, if you developed an 802.11 stack for userspace :D Feb 01 18:18:38 Morgret - The GSM at least has a documented interface/protocol. Feb 01 18:18:45 even then the speed would suck Feb 01 18:18:52 Yep. So they have not been consistent. But if they provide GPS documentation, then all will be well. Feb 01 18:18:54 so_solid_moo - tun/tap exists. Feb 01 18:19:08 Elrond: how is that relevant? Feb 01 18:19:31 so_solid_moo - wifi is ethernet-like, right? Just play a tap-client in userspace. Job done. Feb 01 18:19:47 Elrond: the Hammerhead has a well documented protocol? Where? You don't get NMEA from it, that comes from the closed daemon. Feb 01 18:19:50 Elrond: it doesn't work at all like that I'm afraid Feb 01 18:20:06 Morgret - GSM! Feb 01 18:20:26 * noidd sighs Feb 01 18:20:33 so_solid_moo - Huh? Feb 01 18:20:40 GSM kernel interface is fully open, with sources. Feb 01 18:20:48 Elrond: yep, OK, I misread you saying GPS, not GSM :P Feb 01 18:20:50 it's a serial port. Knock yourself out ;-D Feb 01 18:20:55 Elrond: you don't develop a wireless driver based over an ethernet device Feb 01 18:21:06 Elrond: the problem is the wifi ethernet driver in the first place Feb 01 18:21:28 * spikeb sighs at non-free crap Feb 01 18:21:32 noidd: we're talking about GPS and what Mickey said about it --- the topic got a bit hijacked onto GSM Feb 01 18:23:11 Well, if you don't like it - kill -9 gpsd :-) Feb 01 18:23:36 the problems we had historically with the closed source stuff was because they were closed source kernel modules Feb 01 18:24:19 noidd: no, you've missed the discussion. We're not talking about agpsd, but about the interface to the Hammerhead Feb 01 18:24:22 * noidd charges his office helicopter Feb 01 18:24:22 closed source userspace makes live easier. Yes. Feb 01 18:24:29 But the base issue remains. Feb 01 18:24:48 interface to hammerhead is going to be a serial port i'm guessing Feb 01 18:24:56 Right. Feb 01 18:25:02 I guess so too. Feb 01 18:25:12 But we probably wont get any info on the protocol. Feb 01 18:25:15 anyone good with spherical trig should be able to write it :-) Feb 01 18:25:25 It's the proprietary stream --- Mickey reckoned FIC will not be able to release the info for it. Feb 01 18:25:54 noidd: you have to understand the binary gibberish before you can do the math. Feb 01 18:26:09 I guess i'm more pragmatic than most of you guys. Feb 01 18:26:30 bah Feb 01 18:26:34 noidd: you don't care that a part of the Neo that is accessible to the host SoC is not open? Feb 01 18:26:52 after all, if they used a GPS module that emitted NMEA stright to a tty you wouldn't be crying for the firmware sources to that :-) Feb 01 18:27:12 heh. I wish I could see the firmware sources for the ti gsm chip. Feb 01 18:27:23 you're not the only one ph5 :-) Feb 01 18:27:29 if you could, you'd be NDA-gagged :) Feb 01 18:27:40 Correct, because a firmware blob is just a complex form of initialization. This is more, we need to communicate with the GPS device. Feb 01 18:28:35 This is why even Theo of OpenBSD has no problem with binary firmware blobs, as long as they are distributable. They are only initialization. Feb 01 18:28:58 That is very different to lack of documentation at a programmable interface. Feb 01 18:29:02 Heh, Am I the only one having the impression, that we mix up gsm firmware closedness with gps-stream-proctocol-closedness (and the firmware on the gps chip)? Feb 01 18:29:13 We're not talking about GSM Feb 01 18:29:16 gps is closed now too? Feb 01 18:29:20 jees Feb 01 18:29:28 why not just buy something from motorola Feb 01 18:29:38 parag0n - Basicly: Yes. Feb 01 18:29:50 an arbitrary descision made on a pragmatic level by religous zelots to save face Feb 01 18:29:52 Elrond: the gps is a softgps, which requires software post-processing Feb 01 18:29:57 * noidd dons his asbestos suit. Feb 01 18:30:10 We're just commenting on an answer given by Mickey. However, things could change, and they might be able to document the GPS ... we'll have to talk to Sean. Feb 01 18:30:10 http://axion.physics.ubc.ca/ITAR.html is the latest one I've found. Feb 01 18:30:14 why can't they pass nmea data to the cpu :/ Feb 01 18:30:15 Elrond: which basically means that the 'stream' is useless to us without agpsd Feb 01 18:30:27 Is the international regulations. Feb 01 18:30:35 I'm not intending to be a dick but if you're going to stand on principles and claim no exceptions. Make no exceptions. Feb 01 18:30:36 parag0n: because there is no NEMA signal. Feb 01 18:30:45 the CPU computes it. Feb 01 18:30:47 lame Feb 01 18:31:03 Or ratehre, the gpsd running on the computes it. Feb 01 18:31:16 exactly what koen and speedevil says. Feb 01 18:31:56 if the gps is on the uart it shouldn't be much work to reverse-engineer the stream Feb 01 18:31:57 koen|gprs__ - Which will not stop us from decyphering the stream and writing our own gpsd. Feb 01 18:32:00 the closed gpsd is an imperfection, but should be fixable if motivated enough Feb 01 18:32:10 the gps is _not_ a uart. Feb 01 18:32:14 especially if you have another gps nearby Feb 01 18:32:27 It's a bitstream representing the doppler shift to satellites in view. Feb 01 18:32:29 noidd: correct, we're trying to be consistent with Sean's reason for no wifi --- because it would have to be closed hardware. Well, they've included GPS hardware which is accessible to us ... but it turns out that it may well be closed (needs confirming). The agpsd closed daemon is irrelevant to this discussion --- we could just ignore it, if the GPS hardware stream was documented. Feb 01 18:32:59 This is moderately hard to process into a position, but not very. Feb 01 18:33:27 And if you have it completely open, it may actually mean that you can't import/export the device, as it comes under ITAR Feb 01 18:33:31 (see the above link) Feb 01 18:34:18 Curious. So if somebody writes an open agpsd replacement, I'll be an arms smuggler if I install it and travel across borders? :] Feb 01 18:34:21 cool Feb 01 18:34:22 SpeedEvil - Any idea, which countries that would affect? Feb 01 18:34:42 I'm unsure - I know US. Feb 01 18:34:56 mjr - That would have been my next question. Feb 01 18:35:32 Would the software itself also be a weapon? Feb 01 18:35:40 Current as of 1997 Feb 01 18:35:43 http://fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p121.htm Feb 01 18:36:03 It's a munition - under the ITAR regulations if it can produce positioning over 1000kt/60000ft Feb 01 18:36:13 As an open GPS would be able to. Feb 01 18:36:41 "kt"? Feb 01 18:36:46 knots Feb 01 18:37:04 What does it need to move you people to SI? ;) Feb 01 18:37:10 assuming that the hardware doesn't stop you Feb 01 18:37:14 The Hammerhead is a consumer chip, not a military chip. GPS integrators don't need security clearance afaik, so I think this is going off at a tangent. The reason Infineon/GL don't disclose it except to intergators is purely commercial. Feb 01 18:37:53 Morgret - You're probably right. Feb 01 18:38:14 sounds more plausible than SpeedEvil's speculation Feb 01 18:38:22 Read the ITAR rules. Feb 01 18:39:04 Immediately after the section that defines a GPS that can output positions at high speeds/altitudes is the stuff prohibiting nuclear weapon test equipment. Feb 01 18:39:32 *g* Feb 01 18:39:32 It's easy to discover: just ask any GPS integrator whether they had to get DoD security clearance. After all, *every single military-precision device* has to be accounted for ... and that is impossible with commercial chips. Feb 01 18:40:08 Morgret - Yep. Feb 01 18:40:20 No - it's not DoD cleared. Feb 01 18:40:29 It's an export regulation. Feb 01 18:41:01 The military devices are differnt. Feb 01 18:41:02 just don't manufacture in the US Feb 01 18:41:11 Also, the whole idea that this is a security issue is nutty, because any radio ham could extract a GPS chip and create a military weapon if it had security implications. You think terrorists aren't able to open up a phone? Feb 01 18:41:45 Of course they are - the fact that it's nutty doesn't mean that they won't come and kick down your doors - especially after the large apple/... legal team Feb 01 18:41:53 points them at it with glee. Feb 01 18:41:58 So think "trade secrecy" more than military conspiracies here. Feb 01 18:42:19 The 'military' GPS recievers are different - they use a seperate code. Feb 01 18:42:27 Which is _much_ more secret. Feb 01 18:42:40 from morgs statement I brand all open source developers terrorists ;-P Feb 01 18:42:43 For this, you do need to jump through all sorts of hoops. Feb 01 18:42:55 SpeedEvil: just use dpgs Feb 01 18:42:58 IIRC 'Y' code. Feb 01 18:42:59 dgps* Feb 01 18:43:04 Gotta go home - they just closed the office cos of 9 Feb 01 18:43:08 No doubt. Here we're merely hitting our heads against a traditional closed-source manufacturer in Infineon/GL, that's all. Feb 01 18:43:09 "inclement weather" Feb 01 18:43:10 DGPS doesn't help when they turn off the main GPS. Feb 01 18:43:10 5milimeter precision Feb 01 18:43:24 The civilian GPS that is. Feb 01 18:43:37 It may partially be a closed source issue. Feb 01 18:44:03 Anyway, all this may be moot. Sean may decide to give us the docs ... or at least an operational subset of them. Feb 01 18:44:22 It's export and import actually, on looking. Feb 01 18:44:39 later ya'll Feb 01 18:44:44 cya Feb 01 18:44:56 I don't know if just supplying binary/source with limits in the output routines would do. Feb 01 18:45:37 this isnt just another excuse for a delay is it Feb 01 18:45:38 :/ Feb 01 18:45:52 what? Feb 01 18:46:04 this gps discussion? no. Feb 01 18:46:19 parag0n - no. Feb 01 18:46:22 All we need is enough to feed into our open-source GPS daemon code ... I have no interest in anything except time position. I don't want to shoot down the damn satellites :P Feb 01 18:46:43 *G* Feb 01 18:46:45 i do! Feb 01 18:46:52 All other interface info they can keep to themselves. Feb 01 18:47:04 parag0n - The black copters are near you. ;o) Feb 01 18:48:22 just putviral marketing light baords up in Boston an you will be branded a Terrorist Feb 01 18:49:18 Hasn't ms tried this with opensource sometime in the past? Feb 01 18:50:11 * SpeedEvil posts a question on this on sci.geo.satellite-nav Feb 01 18:57:37 I'm still hopeful. Even if there are problems with documenting our access to the GPS port like Mickey thought there might be, Sean had a vision and a dream for this project, a gadget that was open from the programming PoV. He may yet give us enough, even if Infineon/GL are bitchy about it. After all, we are developers ... and the docs are given to phone developers. Feb 01 18:58:31 *G* :-) Feb 01 18:58:59 hi Feb 01 18:59:38 so like, is there going to be lots of software for openmoko? Feb 01 19:00:10 There already is ... the vast majority of FOSS software should run :P Feb 01 19:00:27 Well maybe not majority ... but a ton of it. Feb 01 19:00:33 except for software needing a keyboard. ;) Feb 01 19:00:33 * spikeb wonders if supertux will run Feb 01 19:00:43 Hehehe Feb 01 19:00:46 ppracer? ;) Feb 01 19:00:50 hehe Feb 01 19:01:00 Elrond: external Bluetooth keyboards are fine. Feb 01 19:01:12 i am extremely interested in this more for the ultraportable computer aspect than the phone functions. Feb 01 19:01:17 can you get mini bluetooth keyboards? Feb 01 19:01:23 hmm Feb 01 19:01:33 I run a software site.. currently for the mac Feb 01 19:01:43 going to go multiplatform soon. Feb 01 19:01:47 parag0n: I found a couple bluetooth thumbboards for pdas Feb 01 19:01:50 cool marcellus Feb 01 19:01:55 er, marcususesthis Feb 01 19:01:58 http://www.proporta.com/F02/PPF02P05.php?t_id=1461&t_mode=des :D Feb 01 19:02:03 (iusethis.com) Feb 01 19:02:05 parag0n: I don't know. My Bt keyboard/mouse would only be mini for a giant :-) Feb 01 19:02:56 parag0n: that looks ideal, hope there's an easy way to clip it to the phone Feb 01 19:03:23 parag0n: that's excellent! Feb 01 19:03:29 theres one by a company called brando which looks goood too Feb 01 19:03:32 Exactly what I need, cheers man :P Feb 01 19:03:42 Morgret - Do you know any gps oriented software, that would work nicely? Feb 01 19:03:52 * spikeb wonders if there's any such thing as a bluetooth wifi adaptor, and if any of them work under linux Feb 01 19:03:53 http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/peripherals/brando-mini-bluetooth-keyboard-slightly-larger-than-tiny-199700.php Feb 01 19:04:13 spikeb, use an nslu2 with a bluetooth adaptor Feb 01 19:04:15 Elrond: GPSdrive and navit should work out of the box, but only with the NMEA from agpsd. Feb 01 19:04:40 parag0n, cool Feb 01 19:05:11 I've posted the question - if anyone with a clue cares to answer it... Feb 01 19:05:22 (on GPS to sci.geo.satellite-nav) Feb 01 19:05:29 Morgret: I've not tried them under OE though. It's actually been over a year single I played with the Slug. Feb 01 19:06:32 http://shop.brando.com.hk/minibluetoothkeyboard.php is $56, £30 ish, charges over usb Feb 01 19:06:36 Morgret talks to herself? ;) Feb 01 19:07:20 Elrond: often :-) In this case though, it just shows that there are race conditions in IRC client UIs :-) Feb 01 19:07:55 :) Feb 01 19:08:15 I find I get less disagreement when talking with myself anyway. But not always. Feb 01 19:09:49 Btw, I've thought of something to do with Neo v1 when I get the v2 model .... the v1 can be mounted on the Roomba! ;-) Feb 01 19:09:56 oh dear Feb 01 19:10:11 Luddite :-) Feb 01 19:10:48 What sort of roof do you have Morgret ? Feb 01 19:11:05 so you can call your roomba and remote control it from anywhere? Feb 01 19:11:13 If the GPS works well enough indoors, that could be interesting. Feb 01 19:11:18 roomba pacman Feb 01 19:11:45 Though it's a pity that it's only 2m or so resolution - 10cm would be nice for that app. Feb 01 19:12:02 My current GPS (a good SIRF-III one) isn't accurate enough for the Roomba, I tried. Feb 01 19:12:17 So I might stick barcodes on the skirting .... Feb 01 19:12:27 http://kotaku.com/gaming/roomba/roomba-frogger-makes-me-sad-160868.php Feb 01 19:12:36 haha Sketch Feb 01 19:13:00 Webcam + image recognition. Feb 01 19:13:01 Morgret: barcodes with paintings that only reflect in the uv spectrum work very well ;) Feb 01 19:13:42 Actually - a compass alone might work well enough. Feb 01 19:14:03 LittleIdiot: that's an idea. I wonder if there are any UV-relfective laser toners. Feb 01 19:15:09 I wasn't playing with my Bluetooth laser scanner for nothing ... ;-) Feb 01 19:15:29 You don't need UV reflective laser toners. Feb 01 19:15:42 You need ordinary toner, and UV reflective paper. Feb 01 19:15:46 SpeedEvil: you do for your idea if you print your barcodes. Feb 01 19:16:10 Ummm .... not sure it works that way around Feb 01 19:16:35 Are you suggesting barcode modules read the white, instead of the black? Doubt it ... Feb 01 19:16:37 You print the toner over paper - where you print it, it doesn't reflect UV. Feb 01 19:17:01 Yeah, but that doesn't mean the scanner logic can cope. Feb 01 19:17:04 Exactly the same result as if you have reflective toner, and black paper. Feb 01 19:17:14 Absolutely not Feb 01 19:17:14 Well, of course you invert before printing. Feb 01 19:17:32 Morgret - I'm also looking for something to "mark" (nincluding averaging( my current pos nicely. :) Feb 01 19:17:38 You're mistaking what the human eye/brain can do with what a scanner module can do. Feb 01 19:17:42 Err - no. Feb 01 19:18:15 It's really hard to tell white paper and black ink from black ink and white paper, reversed. Feb 01 19:18:19 err Feb 01 19:18:26 Morgret: but test it on the material before and expose it to sunlight. some of them turn into slight yellow after some time... quite ugly to have yellow marks on the floor ;) Feb 01 19:18:28 It's really hard to tell white paper and black ink from white ink and black paper, reversed. Feb 01 19:18:50 LOLz ... OK, if you invert before printing then I agree. Nice suggestion ;-) Feb 01 19:18:53 The problem is that there is little UV in the environment, and silicon detectors suck a bit at UV. Feb 01 19:19:05 Well, suck a lot. Feb 01 19:19:50 I suspect that simple reteroreflectors at specific spots, and use the Feb 01 19:19:56 GPS to disambiguate. Feb 01 19:20:10 may work well. Feb 01 19:20:18 What was that word after "simple"? Feb 01 19:20:30 They are like the bike reflectors. Feb 01 19:20:37 They reflect light back the way it came. Feb 01 19:20:44 Gotcha, cheers Feb 01 19:20:52 Is that the right spelling? Feb 01 19:20:56 So if you have a light near the camera, it looks several thousand times brighter than 'white. Feb 01 19:21:03 retroreflector Feb 01 19:21:06 probably Feb 01 19:21:11 tnx Feb 01 19:21:27 You can also get it in tape form. Feb 01 19:24:12 Hi Rod Feb 01 19:24:45 How's MokoSlug coming along? Feb 01 19:25:10 Did you see those tiles? Feb 01 19:25:12 oops - mischan Feb 01 19:25:58 SpeedEvil: bah, boring, pick a cybor channel next time ;-) Feb 01 19:26:27 Did you see those tiles - under that naked chick? Feb 01 19:26:32 Sigh. Feb 01 19:26:38 Alas, I'm not that interesting. Feb 01 19:26:40 Hehe Feb 01 19:26:41 that';d be the worst cyber ever Feb 01 19:26:45 haha Feb 01 19:26:45 * SpeedEvil never saw the point of cyber. Feb 01 19:26:54 WE GO SHOPPOING FOR NEW TILES FOR THE BATHROOM Feb 01 19:27:03 I have pics! Feb 01 19:27:18 i take off the top... of a box of tiles Feb 01 19:27:22 haha parag0n Feb 01 19:27:53 Currently redoing my house, adding insulation, ... all on a very, very tight budget. Feb 01 19:28:19 "Nice corvette, damn I wish that naked chick/hunk hadn't run across just then" Feb 01 19:28:41 i have no house yet, but zillions of plans how to wire it ;) Feb 01 19:29:03 LittleIdiot, heh, i'm the same Feb 01 19:29:34 'hmm, i'll need audio wiring to each room, with a computer tracking people's positions via PIR to control lights / music' Feb 01 19:29:55 All sockets remotely switched. Feb 01 19:30:08 With priority for load shedding on the UPS. Feb 01 19:30:13 yep. but i try to do most stuff without a computer, but a microcontroller instead. Feb 01 19:30:39 LittleIdiot: I'm wired fairly OK, Cat5 a bit messy but it's there, gigabit on all main machines into 24-port gig switch, and KVM-over-Cat5 for total silence in the study and in the lounge for music. Not too shabby. Feb 01 19:30:39 hi Morgret Feb 01 19:30:47 canbus to every device or ir-communication... maybe zigbee if it gets cheaper one day Feb 01 19:31:03 Hi Rod. What time is it down there? Feb 01 19:31:13 MokoSlug is talking dund bluetooth to a Treo650. Just waiting for the Neo to get pand working. Feb 01 19:31:16 One-wire looks interesting - dallas. Feb 01 19:31:23 it's 6:30am - I have young children :-) Feb 01 19:31:28 Ew :-( Feb 01 19:31:29 Morgret: that type of wiring is implicit. i rather meant home automatition ;) Feb 01 19:31:36 Sensors, switches, ... all on a one-wire multi-drop bus. Feb 01 19:31:39 Self powered Feb 01 19:31:45 LittleIdiot: my home automation is crappy, all X10. Feb 01 19:31:46 For $1-$2 per Feb 01 19:32:19 x10 is nice, but the devices are too expensive and it's all too closed up Feb 01 19:32:34 SpeedEvil: I love 1-wire, have a ton of modules and sensors here ... none of which I've yet deployed. /sigh Feb 01 19:32:39 maybe a bluetooth / wifi GPS system for controlling all the plug sockets in the room i'm in Feb 01 19:32:48 canbus is cheap and seems to do the job -- given you can solder ;) Feb 01 19:32:48 s/GPS/PDA/ Feb 01 19:32:49 parag0n meant: maybe a bluetooth / wifi PDA system for controlling all the plug sockets in the room i'm in Feb 01 19:32:49 Actually wiring it up is the interesting bit. Feb 01 19:32:55 I've been wearing an iButton on my keychain for 10+ years. Feb 01 19:33:01 yeah, i've got X10 too...i have issues with lights randomly turning on by themselves on occasion Feb 01 19:33:02 one-wire is if anything cheaper than canbus. Feb 01 19:33:04 Morgret: the next challenge for MokoSlug is getting altboot to work, so that you don't need to keep everything in internal flash. Feb 01 19:33:21 pfft, i'll be using ethernet for everything Feb 01 19:33:25 * koen|gprs wants an altboot written in C Feb 01 19:33:28 wonder if a neighbor has X10 and is bleeding over into my house Feb 01 19:33:38 or insteon Feb 01 19:33:40 http://www.maxim-ic.com/1-Wire.cfm Feb 01 19:33:40 btw. Feb 01 19:33:50 -> * spikeb wonders if there's any such thing as a bluetooth wifi adaptor, and if any of them work under linux Feb 01 19:33:59 koen|gprs: any I want a pony :-) Feb 01 19:34:00 someone foudn one online a while ago Feb 01 19:34:04 s/any/and/ Feb 01 19:34:05 rwhitby meant: koen|gprs: and I want a pony :-) Feb 01 19:34:12 unfortunately I can't seem to reproram one of the wall controllers i bought, so it's stuck on units A1-5 Feb 01 19:34:13 failing that you should be able to make a simple one out of picotux Feb 01 19:34:19 which are $20 in quantity Feb 01 19:34:27 rwhitby: I take it that Gujin only works for x86 and PC BIOS, yes? Because that's the kind of bootloader we need, an intelligent one that discovers bootable things by itself. Feb 01 19:34:37 SpeedEvil: huh? i haven't seen cheap/reasonable priced controllers yet ;) Feb 01 19:34:50 Morgret: LAB does that Feb 01 19:34:58 Morgret: eventually, mickeyl wants to get U-Boot to do that for the Neo. Feb 01 19:35:03 but at the cost of including a complete linux kernel Feb 01 19:35:21 koen|gprs + rwhitby: excellent Feb 01 19:36:05 the current slugos turnup/pivot-root implementation is just a few shell scripts - so any replacement has to be as space-efficient as that. Feb 01 19:36:17 ...and i'll have to power the devices anyway. sure, power supplies in every room would do, but that'd be too inefficient Feb 01 19:36:53 LittleIdiot: I have PoE modules for where power is hard to extend. Feb 01 19:38:20 PoE is quite cheap, dunno why it's not used more. Feb 01 19:39:06 http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/ssv_dilnet-pc_dnp5282.jpg Feb 01 19:39:08 * noidd slirps Feb 01 19:39:16 linux SBC in dip form Feb 01 19:39:21 http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=332 Feb 01 19:39:31 hmm, poe would do as well ;) Feb 01 19:40:03 any openmoko team folks around? Feb 01 19:42:21 thats getting close to my goal or linux in a wristwatch :-) Feb 01 19:42:46 hey charles, how goes? Feb 01 19:42:48 noidd: coldfires have MMU now? Feb 01 19:42:57 yup Feb 01 19:43:10 Blimey, which model? Feb 01 19:45:03 You sure they have MMUs? Was only uClinux last time I looked. Feb 01 19:46:09 it said in the new article that the addition of an MMU means that linux was soon to foolow Feb 01 19:46:17 So... anybody got hardware yet? Feb 01 19:46:55 I found the models noidd: Feb 01 19:46:57 "Freescale's ColdFire line comprises 8-, 16-, and 32-bit processors. Significantly, the MCF547x and MCF548x ColdFire chips announced today are the first in the ColdFire architecture to be based on Freescale's new V4e core, which includes an on-chip MMU. " Feb 01 19:47:11 Is that what that module uses? Feb 01 19:49:17 Nah, that modules uses MCF5282, it's just a uClinux one. Feb 01 19:51:27 PirateHead: phase 0 hardware not shipping from Taiwan until 11th, we heard yesterday. Feb 01 19:51:52 Okay. Can't wait to see the blog posts. Feb 01 19:53:04 Yeah, they'll be interesting. We need a chronicler to keep us all abreast of them ... I'm not going to run around 55 blogs :P Feb 01 19:53:22 planet.openmoko.org Feb 01 19:54:23 Hey, 55 bloggers all posting to the same place is even worse ;-) Feb 01 19:55:34 I doubt more than 20 will blog Feb 01 19:56:02 We'll need a search on there. Feb 01 19:56:15 * koen|gprs tries to calculate (hardcore embedded engineer) && (blog) Feb 01 19:56:49 rot13 it twice, it'll all become clear ;-) Feb 01 19:57:53 ebg13 fhpxf gubhtu :/ Feb 01 19:58:01 * Morgret chuckles Feb 01 19:58:09 <_Stranger> Virtuall kozel Feb 01 19:58:56 consider somebody porting BSD to Neo1973 and 2 binary situations: 1) binary user space agpsd daemon 2) binary kernel wifi module Feb 01 20:02:00 Well after our discussions about government phone snooping, watching V for Vendetta last night was great. Today I think I'll watch Gattaca or Minority Report. Feb 01 20:03:11 if there is linux binary ABI support, agpsd might even run unmodified on BSD? Feb 01 20:04:19 one would presume so; it should use fairly base apis too Feb 01 20:04:46 http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/arstechnica/BAaf/~3/84991318/20070201-8753.html mhh that could possibly act as wifi gateway? Feb 01 20:05:17 if it really is open source Feb 01 20:06:07 noidd: it goes well, how about you? Feb 01 20:06:15 * cying wonders where his first name is posted. Feb 01 20:07:07 buz, there's a thought... if. Feb 01 20:07:15 says in the article Feb 01 20:07:32 if its open source, there's probably linux in there Feb 01 20:07:35 if that's true, it should act as gateway Feb 01 20:07:41 possible Feb 01 20:07:43 plus you get 20G of storage Feb 01 20:07:51 yep, that'd be pretty alluring Feb 01 20:07:56 have to keep an eye out for the details Feb 01 20:07:57 but i doubt it will be anything like reasonably priced Feb 01 20:08:10 If storage isn't in a 19" rack, I'm not interested. Feb 01 20:09:25 counter Feb 01 20:09:25 a week, 3 days 09:18:53 (10.39 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.39 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.39 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 20:09:35 Anyway, it would be a liability. As soon as DAVE and HAL come together, stuff will stop working, and the rest of us will die. Feb 01 20:10:33 19" stuff is way too noisy Feb 01 20:11:16 It can be as noisy as it wants ... 3 rooms and a floor away ;-) Feb 01 20:11:50 But there's no need it to be. I've got a 19" rack unit opened up ready to install some Slugs into it. Feb 01 20:12:06 No fan, no disk. Feb 01 20:12:52 And most pro' musician's gear is rackmount too, and they most certainly don't have noisy gear. Feb 01 20:13:21 Morgret: depends on which gear Feb 01 20:13:33 a lot of gear in the FOH is pretty noise Feb 01 20:13:46 koen|gprs: yup. I'm just saying that it's not inherent in rackmount. Feb 01 20:14:03 true Feb 01 20:14:31 * koen|gprs hates seeing flightcases that say "quad deck" and have to put on top of the stack Feb 01 20:16:12 Scratching deck? Feb 01 20:16:45 no, rackmounted amps Feb 01 20:17:09 Ah. Why do they have to go on top? Feb 01 20:17:16 because Feb 01 20:17:43 (I suspect because some desk-jockey doesn't know how heavy those are) Feb 01 20:18:06 Hehe Feb 01 20:20:44 My guitar/keyboards amp is only 50cm square, yet I can barely lift it. They sure make road gear solid. Or did, as it goes way back. Feb 01 20:21:39 Hmmm, that's an idea ... I wonder if the Neo would be any use as a MIDI controller over Bluetooth .... Feb 01 20:21:53 "rock solid" and "huge cooling fins" are different things :) Feb 01 20:22:23 buz, I see you got to the list with your idea already :) Feb 01 20:23:29 * mjr hears the s/n improving already Feb 01 20:26:03 LittleIdiot: reasonable priced contrtollers, WRT what? Feb 01 20:30:18 Oh I see someone's mentioned using Synergy on Neo. That's actually my very first goal with the gadget too ... I've got a whole laptop dedicated to it atm, which is silly. Feb 01 20:30:26 On devel list. Feb 01 20:30:36 Anyone else using Syngery here? Feb 01 20:30:39 'bitbake synergy' 'ipkg install synergy' Feb 01 20:30:48 SpeedEvil: 1 wire controllers Feb 01 20:30:49 Super super :P Feb 01 20:31:00 Oh - sorry, I was meaning home-cooked ones. Feb 01 20:31:00 ph34r my 1337 p0rt1ng sk177z Feb 01 20:31:19 oh, ok ;) Feb 01 20:31:38 koen|gprs: j00 r 31337 Feb 01 20:35:18 Morgret: as for noise, try your average pizza box Feb 01 20:35:39 last time i had one on my desk for install it droves me nuts Feb 01 20:35:55 buz: you must be using the wrong pizza place, mine crunch a bit, but the main sound is "Mmmmm" Feb 01 20:36:34 counter Feb 01 20:36:34 a week, 3 days 08:51:44 (10.37 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.37 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.37 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 20:36:37 well mine serve up websites Feb 01 20:36:48 also quite expensive Feb 01 20:36:51 1000EUR pizzas Feb 01 20:36:58 If we don't get frickin phones soon, we're going to run out of jokes Feb 01 20:37:32 i'm waiting for the "water" proof silicone skin for the neo Feb 01 20:37:42 that should give ample room for jokes Feb 01 20:37:51 buz: it's the extra truffles and saffron topping that kills the wallet. Feb 01 20:37:53 hell make it latex Feb 01 20:38:11 It's not hard to make a crystal clear silicone flexible cover for the neo. Feb 01 20:38:24 the one i'm thinking about is hard Feb 01 20:38:26 The problem is crystal clear and flexible either scratches or gets gummy Feb 01 20:38:37 how do you get the neo in it if its really water proof Feb 01 20:38:47 * buz thinks SpeedEvil didnt get the cue Feb 01 20:39:00 If it's hard, you can't activate the touchscreen. Feb 01 20:39:19 I have been pondering sapphire LCD covers, and SAW. Feb 01 20:39:19 oh it better be hard Feb 01 20:39:20 How many Microsoft engineers does it take to reflash a Neo? Feb 01 20:40:38 None? Feb 01 20:41:09 three, two of them to hold down ballmer from throwing chairs? Feb 01 20:41:11 Correct. They just redefine Neo as Oldio and claim a patent on it. Feb 01 20:42:01 no thats way to clever Feb 01 20:42:07 the product name must be much more stupid Feb 01 20:42:18 the Noon! Feb 01 20:42:27 something like that yes Feb 01 20:42:35 Seen Feb 01 20:43:16 Well, it would be insightful if the question was how many does it take to screw in a lightbulb ... because unless you hold him down, there are no chairs to stand on. Feb 01 20:43:37 needs no engineers. Feb 01 20:43:48 only marketers to push darkness as the new "standard" Feb 01 20:44:30 having an office furniture shop in 2nd Microsoft Way must be a hell of a business :D Feb 01 20:44:32 lol Feb 01 20:44:32 And make redarkening the new replacement for reflashing. Feb 01 20:44:50 TRIsoft: hehe Feb 01 20:45:59 OK ... so if Steve Jobs were launching the Neo, what hype would be hear? Feb 01 20:47:23 i DONT wanna know Feb 01 20:47:37 iNeo Feb 01 20:47:43 Hahahaha Feb 01 20:47:59 That's the whole of apple marketing these days. Feb 01 20:48:04 i'm waiting for iLeet Feb 01 20:48:10 'Stick i on the front, and shovel it out the door' Feb 01 20:48:17 now thats a product i'd buy Feb 01 20:48:20 But instead of Cisco claiming trademark on it, it would be the Wochawski Brothers ... Feb 01 20:48:53 comes in shiny black coat or what Feb 01 20:49:05 as long as we don't have to see Sean at Fosdem jumping around, shouting "Developers" 79 times, everything is OK Feb 01 20:49:06 iTrinity? Feb 01 20:49:36 if he does, shoot a video of it ;) Feb 01 20:49:43 Definitely. You bet :D Feb 01 20:49:44 TRIsoft: or going 'OMG!!! WIFI!!!' Feb 01 20:49:51 LOL Feb 01 20:49:55 or worse, 'OMG!!! GNU!!!' Feb 01 20:49:56 Of course, that would be in iBullet time Feb 01 20:49:57 well that would be good no'? Feb 01 20:50:00 koen|gprs: What ? No Wifi in the Neo ???????? OMFG !!! Feb 01 20:50:01 OMG FPGA Feb 01 20:50:09 v8! Feb 01 20:50:23 OMG PONIES Feb 01 20:50:23 v8 is so 1990s Feb 01 20:50:24 counter Feb 01 20:50:25 a week, 3 days 08:37:53 (10.36 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.36 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.36 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 20:50:30 now we need hybrid engines Feb 01 20:51:18 can we teach the bot to say something when somebody mentions "wifi" again? ;) Feb 01 20:51:22 Part pony and part FPGA? Feb 01 20:51:29 powered with ethanol (made with more fossil energy than burning the ethanol will give you) Feb 01 20:51:37 Morgret: EXACTLY Feb 01 20:51:44 Hehe Feb 01 20:51:47 so it will appeal to both geeks and girls Feb 01 20:51:56 mhh there's something wrong with that sentence Feb 01 20:51:59 Can you power ponys with alcohol? Feb 01 20:52:10 could try beer Feb 01 20:52:21 LittleIdiot, mmh, there's an idea, but buz here actually managed to use the word in a productive context a while back, so we have to take into account it's not all droning ;) Feb 01 20:52:46 only 99% of it Feb 01 20:52:53 buz: "Syntax error, illegal conjunction of two non-terminals in same sentence: 'geeks', 'girls' Feb 01 20:53:10 * mjr glances at the geek girl two meters to the left Feb 01 20:53:11 actually, with regards to girls, geeks are terminal Feb 01 20:53:16 oh, wait, right Feb 01 20:53:32 (excuse me, 3 hours sleep last night) Feb 01 20:54:11 around here it's actually the girl that reads scifi and comics Feb 01 20:54:52 Anyone ggot any technical topic? I think I've exhausted my comedy quota for today. Feb 01 20:55:48 * rwhitby tries compiling yeaphone for mokoslug (http://www.devbase.at/voip/yeaphone.php) Feb 01 20:56:18 Tech topic... OK. What do you suggest for the hackers lunchbox ? A can of spam or cookies ? Feb 01 20:56:32 spaghetti code Feb 01 20:57:01 may abuse the pastafaris among us Feb 01 20:57:34 TRIsoft: for germans: "Kabelsalat ist gesund" Feb 01 20:58:10 LaF0rge: *lol* and hi Harald :-) Feb 01 20:58:24 rwhitby: wired, not Bluetooth? Feb 01 20:58:48 * LaF0rge was just accidentially cycling through this window Feb 01 20:58:58 Ouch Feb 01 21:00:58 I haven't heard much discussion about the hackers lunchbox. Pity about the name though, I'd have called it Access Dock, if we want the Neo to not get ridiculed by the closed-source competition. Feb 01 21:02:15 mhh fic should bundle the sources for kitchensync and then go about how openmoko includes everything AND the kitchensync Feb 01 21:02:24 lol Feb 01 21:02:33 it woudl even by usefu Feb 01 21:03:08 night Feb 01 21:03:13 NN Feb 01 21:17:55 Morgret: that's the server side - your phone at home which can VoIP to the Neo Feb 01 21:27:26 include 3D printer in "Hackers lunchbox" and some recipes: print new case, wifi chip, camera, v8, whateveris missing Feb 01 21:28:13 aloril2: You mean a replicator, not a 3d printer. Feb 01 21:32:57 well, if it works without recipes then it would allow OMG copying of Neo1973 too Feb 01 21:37:35 add recipes for pizza, etc. so that "Hackers lunchbox" can actually print food ;- Feb 01 21:39:34 But can ponies be open-source? Feb 01 21:40:19 Well if they were pink, they'd go well with apple sauce. Feb 01 21:41:09 counter Feb 01 21:41:09 a week, 3 days 07:47:08 (10.32 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.32 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.32 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 21:41:40 219 nicks yesterday (2007-02-01) record (EET) Feb 01 21:41:44 * SpeedEvil ponders. Feb 01 21:41:44 not really; DNA is rather obfuscated Feb 01 21:41:48 http://www.diamonex.com/products_windows.htm Feb 01 21:41:53 + LCD = win. Feb 01 21:42:18 (hard coated windows) Feb 01 21:42:30 mjr: in principle, you can nanoreplicate something whether it's obfuscated or not, just like you can copy a DVD without having cracked the encryption. Feb 01 21:43:09 I founded the finnish transhumanist association; I know :] Feb 01 21:43:23 but do you call that DVD "open" even if you can copy it Feb 01 21:43:38 mjr: that's nice, I was on the extropian and TH lists many years ago ;-) Feb 01 21:44:11 What's Max Moore and Natasha doing these days? Feb 01 21:44:39 I don't really follow the intl. lists all that closely, but as far as I can tell, same ol' ;] Feb 01 21:45:00 How's the movement going in Finnland? Feb 01 21:45:27 well, we had the Transvision conference last year, and we pulled it off decently Feb 01 21:46:19 mjr: to answer your question, no, I don't regard having access to components of a system as defining that system to be open. The reason is that a system is *generally* more than an aggregation of its parts. Feb 01 21:46:23 I think we're also the most transhumanistic country per capita if you count by th association membership, sans perhaps some mini island nation I don't recall Feb 01 21:47:44 mjr: That's nice to hear. Sadly, I can't say the same about the UK. It's a nation of yobos, led by a self-centered egomaniacs within a police state. Feb 01 21:48:48 yes well, I'm not saying the assholes on top here are any better, but you do seem to be further along into a police state at this point, yes Feb 01 21:49:02 (incidentally, I'm running for parliament currently, but we'll see ;) Feb 01 21:49:26 Hmm - $100 for 3"*2" coated glass replacement for barcode scanner window. Feb 01 21:49:27 There's no doubt about it, leading the world. Not exactly the kind of lead I'd have wanted. Feb 01 21:49:48 That's not actually horrible - if it'd mean a scratchproof display. Feb 01 21:50:12 mjr: wow, you must have a lot of energy. All the best to you, it'll be very hard :-( Feb 01 21:50:28 What party? Feb 01 21:50:37 Well, I don't have that much. Left ;P Feb 01 21:51:28 * aloril2 isn't member though could be probably counted as transhumanist and singularitian too Feb 01 21:52:05 we're on the liberal party docket, which makes the job a bit harder as that's not in high demand here. More importantly however, I'm a part of a three-person group running as "machinators", which is a loose-knit information society activism group Feb 01 21:52:41 it's in finnish, but to get a gander at our style, http://vaalimasinointi.org/ Feb 01 21:52:43 Probably safe to say you won't be forming the next government then :) Feb 01 21:52:57 aloril2: welcome to the ranks of the minimally sane ;-) Feb 01 21:53:36 SpeedEvil, what, you mean that this guy isn't good enough for government: http://rauhala.name/vaalit/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=6&Itemid=37 Feb 01 21:53:54 (again finnish, but you get the idea from the images ;P ) Feb 01 21:54:12 SpeedEvil: hey, the electorate need a change :) Feb 01 21:54:55 XorA|gone: As you're doing ASoC for business. Is there a good guide to port 2.4 OSS driver to ASoC? I need a start for porting the Motorola EZX driver. Feb 01 21:55:54 SpeedEvil: "Government" doesn't really have the same meaning for transhumanists as for the usual crowds. It's a wide grouping, from the ultra-libertarians who would disband government on winning an election, to those who would retain it but strictly hands-off people. Very different. Feb 01 21:56:25 No TH would want to be "in power", in the sense of current government. Feb 01 21:56:33 aloril2, righto Feb 01 21:57:05 True, but with real actual humans, you can't disband government without some means of enforcing the lack of government. Feb 01 21:57:20 Otherwise new ones will arise. Feb 01 21:57:32 Personally, I think there's no chance of individual freedom until we can start to get off this planet, on an individual basis. In orbitals is fine, no need for planets. Feb 01 21:58:21 SpeedEvil: correct, it's not possible to do away with the current mess, because it's founded on resource scarcity and greed. Feb 01 21:58:40 And the main resource that is scare is space. Feb 01 21:58:48 scarce* Feb 01 21:59:54 The earth is a wonderful resource, it can support quadrillions of people, if you grind it up finely enough. Feb 01 22:00:03 Hehe Feb 01 22:00:31 heh Feb 01 22:00:41 It does have loads of room, but not on its surface. We don't have the tech for exploting its space down nor up yet though. Feb 01 22:03:23 But perhaps saying "space" doesn't convey the real problem: lack of *unclaimed space*. If you think you can bury down into the earth or found an undersea colony and get away from existing power structures, think again. There's only one way out of this crap, and that's beyond the atmosphere. Feb 01 22:04:20 Not really - beyond national control might be a better way to put it. Feb 01 22:04:41 It's very unlikely that initial space settlements will be 'free'. Feb 01 22:04:50 National control is like disk usage. It expands to fill all available space. Feb 01 22:06:09 SpeedEvil: yeah, they won't. The key is free travel, not tied down quarters in space. Feb 01 22:06:16 in Egan's Distress there was a nationless gen-mod algae artificial island, which was rather nicely portrayed, what with all the hassling from outside governments also. But probably would be usurped. Feb 01 22:08:47 Nothing in the seas will be left alone, if it's perceived as "showing up" the old nation states. Feb 01 22:09:09 Unless you have a large army, and nuclear missiles. Feb 01 22:09:49 A dangerous game, but yes, that could do it. Feb 01 22:10:34 Sealand gets away with it by not being annoying enough, and not worth the bad PR. Feb 01 22:10:42 Yep Feb 01 22:11:03 If an attack on it could be spun into good PR, and it gets annoying enough, bang. Feb 01 22:12:26 Nanoreplicated mobile submersibles (a swarm city) might be an answer. But thinking about that a little suggests that nanotech would be available to the population in the power blocks too ... in which case their establishments might not survive. Feb 01 22:12:40 yeah, Egan justified the island with PR also; started out quick enough to have a sizable amount of people to be hassled, and then, you know, standard "they'll grow tired" underestimating until the project grows. About the inevitable invasions, well, that would be spoiling ;) Feb 01 22:12:49 Nanotech is a horrible risk. Feb 01 22:12:52 it is Feb 01 22:13:07 we live in the age of horrible risks Feb 01 22:13:08 You think nutters are scary now, when they can kill a few thousand... Feb 01 22:13:42 It may be _marginally_ safe - if you can lock down every resource in reach with security nano first. Feb 01 22:13:50 It's not more a risk than anything else. It's an engineering problem, that's all. Feb 01 22:14:02 Of course, that makes the worst current 'police states' look downright friendly. Feb 01 22:14:50 yeah well, transparent society, Friendly AI watching out, there are survival strategies; but it'll be challenging Feb 01 22:15:09 SpeedEvil: while that's true, you have to remember the imbalance between police state and "citizen" (hahaha) right now. Molecular nanotech would be an equalizer. Feb 01 22:15:19 Umm, no. Feb 01 22:15:41 The state has thousands or millions of people working on their nano. Feb 01 22:15:43 You have one. Feb 01 22:16:00 And potentially, all the nano you have is locked down and you don't have the keys. Feb 01 22:16:17 SpeedEvil: Rubbish. The state has a few dozens of thousands. The community has hundreds of millions. Feb 01 22:16:49 SpeedEvil: by your logic, there would be no open-source now :p Feb 01 22:16:59 Who none of them have access to the tools, which are secret, and any tampering rings alarm bells that gets the perpetrator reeducated. Feb 01 22:17:20 Software at the moment can't kill everyone alive. Feb 01 22:17:30 Nanotech, properly programmed, can. Feb 01 22:17:40 The tools of nanotech cannot be secret --- it's just chemistry + computing. Feb 01 22:17:49 And it's a kitchen sink tech. Feb 01 22:17:56 The fundamentals cannot be kept secret. Feb 01 22:18:08 Access to nanotech devices can be keyed though. Feb 01 22:18:49 LOL, there are nanotech devices all around you. Every living thing is a nanomachine. It just doesn't use a very good engineering material. Feb 01 22:18:51 you can die from the fact that the nano-particles are nano particles, for instance, if you inhale them Feb 01 22:19:01 quick question: where do I have to go to get an openmoko? Feb 01 22:19:05 If you were at the moment living in a nanotech society, and all your posessions were made of nanomachines - it doesn't help. Feb 01 22:19:17 Jellegant: wait a month or so, pay $350 Feb 01 22:19:25 sxpert: that's propaganda, try to see behind it. The environment is ***FULL*** of nanoscale particles. Feb 01 22:19:34 Wait 7 months, pay an undisclosed amount for a release phone. Feb 01 22:19:34 I got that so far -- but where do i need to go. Feb 01 22:20:13 hmmmm..... Feb 01 22:20:20 I can't wait. Feb 01 22:20:28 counter Feb 01 22:20:28 a week, 3 days 07:07:49 (10.30 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.30 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.30 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 22:20:42 Jellegant, it will be available as world-wide mail order Feb 01 22:20:51 anyway, off to sleep now, have fun Feb 01 22:20:52 counter Feb 01 22:20:52 a week, 3 days 07:07:25 (10.30 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.30 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.30 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 22:20:59 NN mjr Feb 01 22:21:04 at the site? Feb 01 22:21:09 The exact order process hasn't been revealed yet. Feb 01 22:21:33 I can't stand it! I want one now! Feb 01 22:21:41 we all do Feb 01 22:21:41 counter Feb 01 22:21:42 a week, 3 days 07:06:35 (10.30 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.30 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.30 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 22:21:45 relax Feb 01 22:21:45 Get in line :-) Feb 01 22:21:54 Jellegant, hence the counter :] Feb 01 22:22:01 Your only option at the moment, is to find where they are, who has them, and offer large sums. Feb 01 22:22:02 if there were a "line" I would. Feb 01 22:22:04 i love the counter Feb 01 22:22:11 Or steal them. Feb 01 22:22:21 Somebody overclock the counter please Feb 01 22:22:33 you can't over clock time Feb 01 22:22:38 I wonder if anybody has a similar item available. Feb 01 22:22:38 at this moment Feb 01 22:22:45 nope Feb 01 22:22:52 nothing this open Feb 01 22:22:54 Sure you can, I'll to to my mate Lorentz Feb 01 22:23:12 I've seen people hack the hp ipaqs. Feb 01 22:23:20 then again why would you overclock time Feb 01 22:23:21 just move at speeds near C, and the time will breeze you by Feb 01 22:23:23 The ipaq is not open though. Feb 01 22:23:27 you would miss out on life Feb 01 22:23:31 the hardware isn't. Feb 01 22:23:36 It's somewhat hacked to make some portions work. Feb 01 22:23:53 relativity theory Feb 01 22:24:35 is there a commercially available 'nix gps, gsm and wifi phone out there now? Feb 01 22:24:53 I mean... in the US? Feb 01 22:25:07 Nowhere. Neo is as close as it gets. Feb 01 22:25:07 No. Feb 01 22:25:09 nope, U.S. likes stagnation Feb 01 22:25:26 not really... there's the greenphone... but that's an open java layer on top of linux... so no Feb 01 22:25:37 Actually - doesn't the A1200 samsung tick most of those boxes? Feb 01 22:25:44 The US is *not* stagnated! It's got the greatest lawyer productivity in the world! Feb 01 22:25:46 Although it is not usefully running linux. Feb 01 22:25:46 and its the qt licence Feb 01 22:26:01 As in you can't run your own software on it. Feb 01 22:26:01 lawyers == pricks Feb 01 22:26:15 grrr..... Feb 01 22:27:36 i wish my entire family ran linux there would NEVER be a problem with their computers Feb 01 22:28:11 supporting windows is a pain therefore there is a service industry from it Feb 01 22:28:28 amen. Feb 01 22:29:07 i can't wait for sources to come out Feb 01 22:29:15 counter Feb 01 22:29:15 a week, 3 days 06:59:02 (10.29 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.29 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.29 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 22:29:16 Yes, you can. Feb 01 22:29:34 your right Feb 01 22:30:16 i wish they would release a flip phone version Feb 01 22:30:20 that would be nice Feb 01 22:30:55 Of the neo? Feb 01 22:31:25 yeah, dual touch screens! Feb 01 22:31:57 i wonder how that would work with a call? Feb 01 22:32:14 I like the format of the Motorola http://www.engadget.com/2005/12/22/motorolas-leaked-a1200-smartphone/ Feb 01 22:32:21 like my beard triggering the screen Feb 01 22:32:50 I was trying to work out how you'd do a cheap plastic transparent flip, with working buttons on them. Feb 01 22:32:54 can you call with it? Feb 01 22:33:22 i looks like it can do everything BUT call Feb 01 22:33:34 with what? Feb 01 22:33:52 the a1200 by moto Feb 01 22:34:45 Yes, it can call. It's a phone. Feb 01 22:34:54 http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_a1200-1429.php Feb 01 22:35:54 i wish more products have the ability to use OGG Feb 01 22:45:12 morning Feb 01 22:45:23 its evening here Feb 01 22:45:36 ~ugt Feb 01 22:45:38 i guess ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html Feb 01 22:45:41 on the east coast of the us$a Feb 01 22:50:08 now i am enlighted Feb 01 22:51:13 (you have a sunny disposition?) ;) Feb 02 00:00:09 btw, are there many taiwanese developers on this channel? Feb 02 00:00:43 just curious as we're going to Taiwan in May and was wondering if I'll have a better chance of buying an openmoko there Feb 02 00:01:34 Does anyone have experience with a GSM gateway? http://www.2n.cz/products/gsm_gateways.html Feb 02 00:05:40 * newmedian watches tumbleweed roll by Feb 02 00:19:54 well, I'm just guessing from the fact that FIC is a Taiwanese company that there must be quite a few Taiwanese developers here :-) Feb 02 00:19:59 that makes me feel happy Feb 02 00:20:19 I didn't think anyone was in here Feb 02 00:20:42 voodoosmurf: :-) Feb 02 00:20:48 cool name btw ;-) Feb 02 00:20:53 thx :) Feb 02 00:20:59 We're just the ghosts in the machine. Feb 02 00:21:03 heh Feb 02 00:21:09 yeah Feb 02 00:21:22 well it's about 10am in Taiwan Feb 02 00:21:32 well actually 9am Feb 02 00:21:54 it's.... 8 here on the east coast in the us Feb 02 00:21:56 pm Feb 02 00:22:13 I think it tends to be busier "earlier" in the day. (It's 00:54 UTC) Feb 02 00:22:34 yea, prob so... there a lot of developers that hang around in here? Feb 02 00:22:42 ok Feb 02 00:22:55 sorry that was a question ;-) Feb 02 00:22:59 heh Feb 02 00:23:22 I've seen a few from the Planet here, but I've not been around long enough to identify everyone. Feb 02 00:23:44 either of you know when this phone is goin to go on sale? Feb 02 00:23:56 3/11/2007 Feb 02 00:24:02 counter Feb 02 00:24:02 a week, 3 days 05:04:14 (10.21 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.21 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.21 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 02 00:25:45 aloril: wow :-) Feb 02 00:27:04 I'll be in Taiwan when they go on sale :-) Feb 02 00:27:05 yay Feb 02 00:28:42 My chatzilla shows ~200 people on the channel. How do I tell who is actually signed in? Feb 02 00:29:23 hmmm... Feb 02 00:29:39 use a proper irc client? most of them have userlists Feb 02 00:30:01 chatzilla isn't "proper"? Feb 02 00:30:06 wonder where Sean Moss-Pultz lives? Feb 02 00:30:09 US or Taiwan? Feb 02 00:33:30 duffyd: how many hours from NZ to TW? Feb 02 00:34:37 well I've got a stopover in Sydney so from Sydney is 8 hours 15 mins Feb 02 00:35:17 LA to Sydney is 14+ hours. Feb 02 00:35:37 Big ocean Feb 02 00:36:23 yeah :-) Feb 02 00:36:48 DukeOfURL: what do you do for a living? Feb 02 00:37:09 Voip telephone systems for small business Feb 02 00:37:21 Asterisk Feb 02 00:37:30 You? Feb 02 00:38:21 Plone developer Feb 02 00:38:27 i.e. plone.org Feb 02 00:38:54 DukeOfURL: interesting job, though - I can tell why you have come here ;-) Feb 02 00:39:04 your job is interesting that is ;-) Feb 02 00:39:23 I do use Asterisk personally - great platform Feb 02 00:39:28 Asterisk integration with OpenMoko would be good. Feb 02 00:40:28 newmedian: yeah :-) Feb 02 00:40:42 Asterisk? Feb 02 00:40:51 asterisk.org (iirc) Feb 02 00:40:57 I'm wondering about running Asterisk in the Neo... Feb 02 00:41:00 voip pabx Feb 02 00:41:15 in the Neo? Feb 02 00:41:17 wow Feb 02 00:42:34 That's why I asked if anyone had experience with a GSM gateway. Feb 02 00:43:10 mobile to mobile calls on Cingular are free. SIM in the Neo, SIM in the gateway, controlled by an Asterisk system. Feb 02 00:43:14 The first version of the phone .. does not have Wifi, right? Feb 02 00:43:21 Does not Feb 02 00:43:30 Unfortunately. Feb 02 00:43:57 shame Feb 02 00:44:07 Especially since GPRS is $$$$ in Canada. Feb 02 00:44:16 Am looking at establishing a modem (FSK) connection over the GSM connection... Feb 02 00:44:41 TDD? Feb 02 00:44:46 Yes Feb 02 00:44:55 Interesting. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Feb 02 02:59:59 2007