**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 03 02:59:59 2007 Feb 03 03:00:33 Go figure. Feb 03 03:02:21 * NAiL can't wait to get hold of a phone :-\ Feb 03 03:02:49 The UK hints at a police state, doesn't it? Feb 03 03:10:44 Is an emulator available? Feb 03 03:11:10 It's an offence to have equipmemt that can change a phones IMEI Feb 03 03:11:23 and some other stuff. Feb 03 03:12:03 have a link to the relevant legal code? Feb 03 03:13:35 Is Cingular going to have a problem with these phones? Ut wouldn't be difficult for them to determine the IMEI of the Neos. Feb 03 03:15:15 will the openmoto be usable in canada? Feb 03 03:16:28 I'm guessing freenode is really, really slow tonight. Feb 03 03:19:24 slava: Yes, on Rogers or Fido Feb 03 03:19:35 ok Feb 03 04:26:33 firefox using 2334m of virtual memory ;-) Feb 03 04:40:09 horray for ad-hoc memory management strategies Feb 03 04:48:13 aloril: WTF? what have you got open in firefox? Feb 03 04:49:38 jessta_: just a 'few' windows each with 'few' pages ;-) Feb 03 04:51:36 Do these 'few' pages contain flash player movies? Feb 03 04:52:54 should not, but some might, but there were like 15-20 windows open and in each from 1-10 tabs ;-) Feb 03 04:53:24 though many were dummy tabs, it uses surprisingly much memory for just one line of text Feb 03 05:09:05 mjr: it was a bug, now it changes context back here before sending msg to #openmoko (some spammer in other server sent private msg) Feb 03 05:28:09 counter Feb 03 05:28:09 a week, a day 23:59:59 (9.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, a day (37.000 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, a day (221.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 03 05:28:51 month+week+day Neo1973 Feb 03 05:29:18 + almost full day ;-) Feb 03 05:48:24 just making sure I have fixed bug Feb 03 05:48:27 counter Feb 03 05:48:27 a week, a day 23:39:41 (8.986 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, a day (36.986 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, a day (220.986 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 03 05:50:45 hmm Feb 03 05:50:50 anyone here? Feb 03 05:50:57 ryoohki: yes Feb 03 05:51:02 oh good Feb 03 05:51:12 is this phone available yet? Feb 03 05:51:24 counter Feb 03 05:51:24 a week, a day 23:36:44 (8.984 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, a day (36.984 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, a day (220.984 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 03 05:51:35 bah, you keep moving the clock :-P Feb 03 05:51:55 hmmmm Feb 03 05:51:57 noidd: have changed it only twice ;-) Feb 03 05:52:13 noidd: first time from EET to UTC and second time from UTC to CST + day Feb 03 05:52:37 what about the other open phone - the one with qt? Feb 03 05:54:26 * aloril thinks it has some closed stuff Feb 03 05:54:54 trolltech's greenphone Feb 03 05:55:00 it definitely costs more too Feb 03 05:55:03 this has basically only agpsd closed (and gsm is separate module), but no doubt that will be opened soon ;- Feb 03 05:55:10 ) Feb 03 05:55:24 agpsd that is Feb 03 05:55:37 yes, it think qt has a different license but i think it's not too unaccetable for many people Feb 03 05:55:49 greenphone has drm too Feb 03 05:56:13 agpsd? is that the sd driver? there is an open sd card driver Feb 03 05:56:20 oh Feb 03 05:56:26 ryoohki: GPL is OK for me, but it has DRM and something else what I don't recall now closed Feb 03 05:56:50 ryoohki: in past even qtopia was closed but better now I think, anyway, 2x price, 1/4 screen pixels ;-) Feb 03 05:57:39 better scree Feb 03 05:57:41 n Feb 03 05:57:51 yup Feb 03 05:58:05 ryoohki: agpsd: user space GPS daemon, it has cheap GPS chip that does only some simple stuff and actual calculations are done in closed binary daemon Feb 03 05:58:11 i like the openmoko Feb 03 05:58:20 huu Feb 03 05:58:21 h Feb 03 05:58:42 ryoohki: no doubt somebody will decipher protocol and use GPL code to replace proprietary module Feb 03 05:59:01 i just went to fry's and the wrt54gl costs a bit more than the other wrt54g's Feb 03 05:59:08 good! Feb 03 06:00:14 verizon nickles and dimes their customers. they actually supply the gps to you - hope you don't get lost in a remote area and the phone is useless Feb 03 06:02:42 yeah they cost reduced the regular g's - and then changed chipsets altogether Feb 03 06:03:19 Is this phone going to work on CDMA networks? Feb 03 06:03:20 the latter happened about the same time linux hackers managed to make it fit in the first nerfed version Feb 03 06:03:23 nope Feb 03 06:03:34 even if it did verizon et al probably wouldn't activate it Feb 03 06:03:54 problem is, you have to carry about a bluetooth keyboard Feb 03 06:03:55 What network/vendor embraces this kind of enterprise? Feb 03 06:04:03 GSM networks Feb 03 06:04:09 in the US that's tmobile and cingular Feb 03 06:04:12 Period, all providers? Feb 03 06:04:19 yeah all GSM providers Feb 03 06:04:22 Nice. Feb 03 06:04:24 the zaurus or jornada 720 clamshell design avoided that Feb 03 06:04:38 no wifi? Feb 03 06:04:42 nope Feb 03 06:04:49 :( Feb 03 06:04:55 will it had sdio? Feb 03 06:05:06 no sdio - that's encumbered Feb 03 06:05:16 no, there is a driver Feb 03 06:05:16 same with all known low-power wifi chips Feb 03 06:05:21 ok :) Feb 03 06:05:27 but it's micro-sd under the battery Feb 03 06:05:28 micro SD is under battery Feb 03 06:05:48 in practice using sdio would be... tricky Feb 03 06:06:01 under the battery? you have to powerdown to eject? Feb 03 06:06:17 * aloril will some day add automatic reply to wifi question (and camera too) (biggest part is writing that message I think ;-) Feb 03 06:06:24 *nod* Feb 03 06:06:36 so get one card that's big enough for everything you want ;) Feb 03 06:06:38 there should be a faq bot Feb 03 06:06:41 there are 1gb and 2gb cards Feb 03 06:07:28 ie.. something like this: "wifi?" triggers it also if nick has not been seen earlier and says wifi.*\? then trigger too (once of course) Feb 03 06:07:52 wonder if we can persuade them to put a full-sd card in v2 Feb 03 06:08:03 if nokia can be talked into it with the 770->800 ;) Feb 03 06:08:16 or if that is not enough, get battery powered USB hub + battery powered USB hard drive (up to 160GB) Feb 03 06:08:36 i want usb2 more than wifi Feb 03 06:08:48 did i just say that? ;) Feb 03 06:08:49 no - wifi is important Feb 03 06:09:20 they need to add a phone to the 770 - 800 series Feb 03 06:09:50 i wonder how the openembeded builds are going for the 770 Feb 03 06:09:59 since it looks like nokia won't be releasing much more new firmware for it Feb 03 06:10:08 no perfect phone Feb 03 06:10:36 . o O (get in touch with Washu - she could do it!) Feb 03 06:11:05 i would take the zaurus 3200 and make the hd accessable, and add a camera on a roll bard like to cute sonys used to have Feb 03 06:11:24 (;_:) Feb 03 06:11:49 =(-*-)= Feb 03 06:13:01 don't they have gsm cf cards that work with the z? Feb 03 06:21:38 do they? that would be too cool! i want a zaurus that powers on when a call comes in Feb 03 06:27:43 gotta go, bye all! Feb 03 06:55:12 * lightyear is away: buying somethings Feb 03 09:15:36 hi a"moko"s Feb 03 09:16:36 notsmack: http://www.unlocks.co.uk/nokiaunlock-law.php Feb 03 09:42:28 notsmack: my bad - last time I read it - not in neo context - I skipped over the 'with makers consent' option - with which it's legal (in the uk to change IMEI). It's only illegal to supply if you know or believe it's being used for criminality. Feb 03 09:45:44 Which of course as soon as volumes are sold, and you are told by the police that it is, you (the distributor) are now liable to go to jail if the court then holds that knowledge that a fraction of your goods being used criminally = 'he knows or believes that the person to whom the thing is supplied intends to use it unlawfully for that purpose or to allow it to be used unlawfully for that purpose.' Feb 03 10:19:59 Updated by http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/60038--f.htm#62 though irrelevant in this case. Feb 03 10:25:29 You FUD'ing the project again, SpeedEvil? Feb 03 10:28:39 No - this is a completley irrelevant bit to the neo. Feb 03 10:30:16 Was a question earlier about the legislation which stops reprogramming the IMEI of phones in the UK. Feb 03 10:31:36 I'm glad to hear it's irrelevant. But talking about legal things that are irrelevant creates FUD. It raises a spectre over the project. Feb 03 10:31:38 Was a question earlier about the legislation which stops reprogramming the IMEI of phones in the UK. Feb 03 10:33:25 It's not quite, there was a question on how open the GSM part was, which I answered. It would be nice for it to be fully open, but there is no way it wouldn't be used for crime, and get in trouble :( Feb 03 10:33:35 counter Feb 03 10:33:36 a week, a day 18:54:31 (8.788 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, a day (36.788 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, a day (220.788 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 03 10:34:48 need a counter counter Feb 03 10:34:53 :) Feb 03 10:35:02 count how many "counter"s Feb 03 10:35:03 :P Feb 03 10:35:17 there's this fascination with any geek to go tinker ;) it's hard to accept the GSM part as being hout of bounds Feb 03 10:35:36 then again, how many people go and rewrite their Intel x86 microcode? Feb 03 10:35:40 Yeah - there are so many fun things that could be done. Feb 03 10:35:46 None, as it's signed. Feb 03 10:35:48 i'm more of a "if it works, dont mess with it" type :P Feb 03 10:35:56 And there is no docs. Feb 03 10:36:16 Well since the Neo is fully open only to the point where the host SoC meets the serial interfaces to the various devices, any talk about what might or might not be legal if we had access *behind* those interfaces is irrelevant to us. But it still stirs doubt among those who don't know the difference, and that's unhelpful. Feb 03 10:36:41 isnt the the D from FUD ? :) Feb 03 10:36:46 that the * Feb 03 10:37:07 Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt Feb 03 10:37:23 rhetorical question ^ Feb 03 10:37:25 Personally, I think it's interesting to discuss what it is possible to open, and what bits legalities prevent. Feb 03 10:37:39 Even if those legalities are really, really annoying. Feb 03 10:37:49 * Stephmw creates #openmoko-legal to make everyone happy Feb 03 10:38:01 ... only kidding Feb 03 10:38:10 Opening radio on consumer products will always present legal problems Feb 03 10:38:15 It might be a good idea, Stephmw. Feb 03 10:38:52 Morgreet: I'm afraid it might imply there's actually serious legal chatter in such a chanenel (people may infer some tenuous backing from FIC where none exists) Feb 03 10:38:53 True - but AIUI, nobodies been arrested for wifi hacking. People have for phone hacking. Feb 03 10:39:06 And even sent down. Feb 03 10:39:13 that is a different scenario Feb 03 10:39:30 (which can't be done on the neo) Feb 03 10:39:34 Stop casting FUD!!!! We are not hacking this phone! It's an open phone by design, fer crissake! Feb 03 10:39:39 a better forum for legalistic discussions really is the mailing list, people can give more considered answers and questions Feb 03 10:40:06 freenode's a network for techies, let's keep it that way :) Feb 03 10:40:12 Yeah Feb 03 10:40:15 huh ? Feb 03 10:40:18 since when ? Feb 03 10:40:19 lol Feb 03 10:40:30 I am not casting FUD - I have throughout the GSM thing said that this does not apply to the neo, though it would to an 'open' GSM phone. Feb 03 10:40:31 Morgreet: What FUD? Had too much cafeine today? ;) Feb 03 10:40:35 madwoota: I should've said geeks ;) Feb 03 10:40:47 madwoota: but wanted to exclude the legal-geeks :) Feb 03 10:40:53 The supply part at least. Feb 03 10:41:20 i'm obviously in too many of the wrong types of channels Feb 03 10:41:33 (not relevant to neo) it's legal to change the IMEI on your own devices, with the makers consent. Feb 03 10:41:48 Jo2: spreading fear about what might happen if we program our Neo is exactly what FUD means. Look it up. Feb 03 10:42:21 copying dvd's is also "illegal" in most countries, but dvd recorders are still sold Feb 03 10:42:31 Morgreet: Nothing here is spreading fear Feb 03 10:42:36 chill Feb 03 10:42:37 disclaimers are a wonderful thing Feb 03 10:42:39 hehe Feb 03 10:43:23 madwoota: what are you doing in #donkeys-are-teh-sexzi ? Feb 03 10:43:26 * Stephmw hides Feb 03 10:43:35 aww crap Feb 03 10:43:46 thought it was +s :( Feb 03 10:43:56 FIC is specifically designing this thing for the FOSS community to program as they want. That's the goal, that's Sean's vision. And FIC has plenty of lawyers that will have checked that it's in order. Feb 03 10:44:33 Everything is in order...teh questionable parts (ex. the radio) are closed Feb 03 10:44:49 I have no argument with the legality of the phone as shipped currently. I am certain it is legal. Feb 03 10:44:51 some things dont *need* to be user configurable tho Feb 03 10:44:58 madwoota: I wasn't going to mention #sex-toys-for-mobiles Feb 03 10:45:10 thanks :P Feb 03 10:45:19 oh wait Feb 03 10:45:24 its #mobiles-are-sex-toys Feb 03 10:45:29 hehe Feb 03 10:45:30 I have doubts about the legality of it shipping with a hypothetical - as yet to be installed OSS gps daemon. Feb 03 10:45:30 vibrate function ! Feb 03 10:45:46 You do know that there are bluetooth 'devices' ? Feb 03 10:45:57 btw, does the gps unit 'require' a net connection to operate? Feb 03 10:46:00 no. Feb 03 10:46:01 SpeedEvil: well doubts about the legality of us programming it are *precisely* the FUD we don't want. Feb 03 10:46:09 good....read something that gave me doubts Feb 03 10:46:35 SpeedEvil: yeah, saw one on TheRegister... Feb 03 10:46:51 The GPS gets fixes rapidly when turned on 'warm' Feb 03 10:47:08 which is something like if it's been on for 30 seconds in the last 24 hours. Feb 03 10:47:32 well, as long as I don't need to use GPRS to get tables I'm happy Feb 03 10:47:42 Here we go, the FUD starts. We badly need to get Sean to comment here, before SpeedEvil sends this project down the tubes. Feb 03 10:47:58 It will get slower fixes if it's been off for some time, or you've moved several thousand km. Feb 03 10:48:04 Morgreet: what are you talking about now? Feb 03 10:48:28 The data speeds lock times up if the GPS has not been on for 30s in the last few hours. Feb 03 10:48:30 madwoota: you almost made me snort my tea :) Feb 03 10:48:44 And also knowledge of position speeds lock up if you've moved. Feb 03 10:49:23 I don't care how long I need to wait for it to warm up...As long as a connection via GPRS isn't necessary Feb 03 10:49:31 Too expensive here Feb 03 10:50:28 For a phone plugged into a computer, it[s probably reasonable whenever you go to charge it to upload the ephimerides. Feb 03 10:50:40 This will help battery life by a tiny amount. Feb 03 10:50:50 If you only want occasional fixes. Feb 03 10:51:46 I don't want ANY dependence on a connection in order for GPS to function Feb 03 10:51:54 There isn't. Feb 03 10:52:02 It's just slightly faster. Feb 03 10:52:33 The absolute worst case - no position or time knowledge still gets you a position in several minutes. Feb 03 10:53:44 Annoyingly the brief datasheet doesn't give power information, so it's not clear how much power just keeping the GPS on all the time will take. Feb 03 10:54:21 Probably not much. Feb 03 10:55:08 and a configurable update time will probably keep it low Feb 03 10:55:20 Yeah. Feb 03 10:55:41 You should be able to get position several times a minute cheaply. Feb 03 10:55:50 Which will be just fine for many apps. Feb 03 10:56:42 Though in any case, the display will utterly swamp it, so interactive uses are not affected. Feb 03 10:57:11 it'd be interesting to have an adaptive update rare Feb 03 10:57:14 *rate Feb 03 10:57:28 movememnt detected->faster updating Feb 03 10:57:40 * Stephmw sighs, typing sucks today Feb 03 10:57:48 True. An accellerometer would be nice for triggering that. Feb 03 10:57:56 no, a FPGA! Feb 03 10:57:58 * SpeedEvil has a cool idea. Feb 03 10:58:11 If the A/D on the mic is not _too_ expensive. Feb 03 10:58:29 Then running it all the time, you can add a 'whistle a tune' to locate me. Feb 03 10:58:48 a field programmable gate array ? Feb 03 10:59:02 OMG FPGA!!! Feb 03 10:59:09 OMG WIFI!!! Feb 03 10:59:09 OMG GNU!!! Feb 03 10:59:16 Using the CPU to decompose the incoming signal into fuzzy frequency bins, then feeding to a fuzzy time matcher, it can respond only to a particular tune. Feb 03 10:59:18 there, now we have covered all topics Feb 03 10:59:30 You forgot ponies :P Feb 03 10:59:34 Even with minor pitch/speed variations. Feb 03 10:59:43 donkeys > ponies ! Feb 03 10:59:45 No, it's going to be a Gnu. Feb 03 10:59:51 Not a pony. Feb 03 11:00:35 * SpeedEvil has been trying to work out how to do the above and stick it on an 8 bit micro in a keychain. On a phone it's easy. Feb 03 11:00:44 SpeedEvil: I was thinking of doing it on the cheap... compare last two position fixes... if they're past a certain threshold, increase frequency, otherwise decrease Feb 03 11:00:56 Yeah - that's of course possible. Feb 03 11:01:15 gps reception is fully passive, right? Feb 03 11:01:18 Yes. Feb 03 11:01:27 wonder how that fares inside a cabin Feb 03 11:01:36 Depends on the roof. Feb 03 11:01:49 I'm thinking 737-style cabins :) Feb 03 11:01:49 My garmin GPS 12 will sort-of lock under some thin roofs. Feb 03 11:02:02 Ah - in that case, only against a window. Feb 03 11:02:11 SpeedEvil: good, that's a relief Feb 03 11:02:29 The GPS on the neo is 8 times more sensitive. Feb 03 11:02:50 So it may work inside many buildings. Feb 03 11:03:04 buildings are mostly ok, planes would be a concern Feb 03 11:03:18 Single story non-metal roofed buildings. Feb 03 11:03:26 My SIRF-III one is fine indoors, even with another floor above, except in certain parts of the ground floor. Feb 03 11:04:25 It's going to depend a lot on construction details - for example, some insulation board has foil liners. Feb 03 11:04:48 gps doesn't really work inside a plane Feb 03 11:04:51 * Stephmw starts manufacturing tinfoil phone sleeves for airport security to give out Feb 03 11:04:58 sirf3 freaks out on 4 digit speeds Feb 03 11:05:00 I'm currently insulating my house - and incidentally killing mobbile reception inside :( Feb 03 11:05:06 koen: shhhh, you've ruined my FUD business Feb 03 11:05:18 4 digit speeds? Feb 03 11:05:26 Yep. UK roofs tend to contain no metal, just a wood frame, tar fabric and tiles, so no problem. Feb 03 11:05:26 1000km/h Feb 03 11:05:49 well, that rules concorde out Feb 03 11:06:08 don't think most commercial flights exceed 700km/s Feb 03 11:06:50 99% of commercial stuff cruises at 820. Feb 03 11:06:55 err mach .82 Feb 03 11:07:04 ah, my mistake Feb 03 11:07:05 870 Feb 03 11:07:10 s/700/870/ Feb 03 11:07:12 all fixed Feb 03 11:07:14 that's long-hail Feb 03 11:07:16 haul Feb 03 11:07:41 As that's about where the fuel burn is lowest for jets at altitude. Feb 03 11:07:55 (this does not apply to neo battery life) Feb 03 11:08:08 ;) Feb 03 11:10:36 non-moko related... I wonder if an optical mouse could be modded to scan barcodes... Feb 03 11:10:54 why wouldn't it be able to Feb 03 11:10:56 ;) Feb 03 11:11:01 I hope the Silent profile implements muting far down the sound chain, beyond what normal apps can change, or Neo will get a bad rep in cinemas when arbitrary FOSS code activates sound. ;-) Feb 03 11:11:24 :) Feb 03 11:11:46 Maybe the sound can be cross checked to determing the environment Feb 03 11:12:41 Well that was part of Sean's vision for it :-) Feb 03 11:12:47 like the way some companies want to use your computer microphone to determing what movie you may be watching Feb 03 11:12:51 Jo2: looks like my thought is pretty old.. http://slashdot.org/articles/06/01/08/1536200.shtml Feb 03 11:14:05 Hmm, actually, the GPS would be much better suited for a solution to that problem Feb 03 11:14:50 A table of GPS locations that are downloadable for setting standard environment Feb 03 11:15:09 Even a sharable wiki type thingy. Feb 03 11:15:09 silent environment Feb 03 11:15:26 updateable sould be necessary, yet Feb 03 11:15:29 yes Feb 03 11:15:39 If you have not been in an environment before, but another user has put their phone on quiet there, then it vibrates and asks you if it should be. Feb 03 11:15:53 The world's too big for that. But configuring your office and home coordinates into it for setting profiles, yep, that's a good use. Feb 03 11:15:55 well, that sounds a bit irritations Feb 03 11:15:58 irritating Feb 03 11:16:13 lots of places I haven't been yet Feb 03 11:16:22 wouldn't want to be bugged every few minutes Feb 03 11:16:32 Or maybe if most people have put their phone on quiet there. Feb 03 11:16:36 That might be more sane. Feb 03 11:16:50 As an option of course. Feb 03 11:16:57 But when putting a phone on silent, an option to update the database with that as a standard recommendation..... Feb 03 11:17:07 yeah. Feb 03 11:17:10 If it isn't already there Feb 03 11:18:12 If we have a 2G card as standard, then storing a few hundred thousand locations isn't that bad. Feb 03 11:18:33 So, if anyone here thought that was an interesting idea, go for it. That idea is now GPL'ed. :D Feb 03 11:19:11 You wouldn't need so many locations....depends on were you are...the rest of the world isn't a concern Feb 03 11:19:19 until you get there ;) Feb 03 11:22:22 using the GPS information to determine precise area for setting might be a challange though Feb 03 11:22:33 Ooooh ... just occurred to me that we could use the Neo's USB for not only time-lapse photography with a camera, but triggered photography, eg. when the mike detects sound. Feb 03 11:23:18 Neo security platform Feb 03 11:23:20 hehe Feb 03 11:23:47 Jo2: indeed ... and it can phone out to notify of the detection. Feb 03 11:23:48 just missing wifi Feb 03 11:24:40 too bad there's no built-in camera Feb 03 11:25:15 Jo2: no no, the controller must be hidden in a security platform. Feb 03 11:26:13 Using an ethernet to USB adapter with PoE...... Feb 03 11:26:25 Jo2: and to extend the idea, one could add additional external sensors communicating their alters via Bluetooth. Feb 03 11:26:37 s/alters/alerts/ Feb 03 11:26:37 Morgreet meant: Jo2: and to extend the idea, one could add additional external sensors communicating their alerts via Bluetooth. Feb 03 11:27:35 gotta test that Feb 03 11:27:44 s/gotta/have to/ Feb 03 11:27:44 Jo2 meant: have to test that Feb 03 11:27:46 hehe Feb 03 11:28:14 never thought of that before Feb 03 11:29:36 What about electronic door keys? The GPS detects when you're at your front door, the Bluetooth device address gives a minimal validation to open up a channel to the lock, and then OM uses ssh to do the real secure unlocking operation. Feb 03 11:30:34 Morgreet: errr Feb 03 11:30:38 Morgreet: no thanks :) Feb 03 11:30:56 Morgreet: I'd rather not have such an automated door entry Feb 03 11:30:57 Stephmw: fair enough ... but why? Feb 03 11:31:35 Morgreet: I like the hassle of multiple keys :) Feb 03 11:31:44 Better to apply things that are applicable today Feb 03 11:32:08 Jo2: this is all trivial today though, hehe Feb 03 11:33:30 Wish they would have put in wifi in the first version Feb 03 11:34:17 Jo2: or powered the USB, so that we could attach a tiny wifi dongle. Feb 03 11:34:20 would have opened up for so many other options, given it's a mobile device Feb 03 11:34:49 Well, the battery is quite weak...would be drained quickly with an external device Feb 03 11:35:12 but a USB hub with battery...... Feb 03 11:36:21 Well, that's a tradeoff for the user, each person can decide if they want the power drain or not. Could be useful even just for a few mins, then switch off. Feb 03 11:37:03 true...if the bettery can even support the current required in addition Feb 03 11:37:15 s/bettery/battery/ Feb 03 11:37:16 Jo2 meant: true...if the battery can even support the current required in addition Feb 03 11:37:21 :D Feb 03 11:38:10 remember, powered USB has certain requirements for power Feb 03 11:38:24 might not have been doable Feb 03 11:39:08 Oh it's doable, but just requires a bit more circuitry, ie a DC upconverter from 3.6V to 5V Feb 03 11:40:03 I mean that a powered USB device is required to maintain the voltage with a given current. The battery may not have enough left after normal operation to support that Feb 03 11:40:24 And if the upconverter can be switched off by software, it needn't impact on normal battery life. Feb 03 11:41:18 without hurting itself or exploding hehe Feb 03 11:41:37 I hope Neo's battery isn't a Sony ... Feb 03 11:45:30 GPS+Sony battery... == BOOM Feb 03 11:45:32 I'm curious about the agps system. does it operate as a standalone gps receiver at all? Feb 03 11:48:17 Agps is done (currently) by a closed-source daemon. The Hammerhead chip itself should give us plain GPS, yes. Feb 03 11:48:52 That's the theory, to the best of our knowledge atm. Feb 03 11:49:47 thanks Feb 03 11:51:26 as for gps power consumption there was some number on the list once Feb 03 11:51:39 i think 5mAs for one fix Feb 03 11:51:40 6A Feb 03 11:51:51 since you can only do gps with 5 FPGAs Feb 03 11:51:56 The hammerhead chip gives raw data that needs cooked in the daemon. Feb 03 11:51:59 according the the community list Feb 03 11:52:08 no problem, you can always power the FPGA with a V12 Feb 03 11:52:19 I thought it was a pony on a treadmill. Feb 03 11:54:25 Wow, wifi prices in freefall -- http://www.blueunplugged.com/p.aspx?p=115010&gclid=CM7ll9SWkooCFTpYMAodqjthkA Feb 03 11:55:43 Can Linux handle USB wifi dongles like that one? Or is there the driver issue, just like with raw wifi chipsets? Feb 03 11:55:53 Morgreet: depends on the chipset Feb 03 11:55:58 ralink ones work fine i'm told Feb 03 11:56:08 Some vendors ship linux source drivers. Feb 03 11:56:09 tnx Feb 03 11:56:12 Zydas, for example. Feb 03 11:56:35 The only binary is the blob that gets loaded into the chipset RAM. Feb 03 11:57:26 K, well that's not a problem as long as the blob is redistributable. That seems to vary. Feb 03 11:57:35 same thing with Ralink, who iirc were more cooperative about gpl drivers Feb 03 11:58:17 So couldn't a Zydas wifi device been included in Neo, if it has open-source drivers? Feb 03 11:58:22 The blob was redistributable. Feb 03 11:58:29 Maybe power issues. I dunno. Feb 03 11:58:36 It's certainly pretty small. Feb 03 11:58:57 most likely time constraints on design and shipping have a bigger effect Feb 03 11:58:57 One of the smallest USB dongles I've seen. Feb 03 11:59:41 also, I must note that the zydas dongle I've used was extremely power hungry. Feb 03 11:59:55 thats the reason why it wasnt integrated then Feb 03 12:00:12 when is olpc supposed to ship? is their driver done? Feb 03 12:00:14 probably improved since Feb 03 12:01:35 typical current consumption: 150mA (idle), 200mA (sending) Feb 03 12:01:39 buz: good point. I bet a lot of projects will go for that when the driver is done. Feb 03 12:02:06 that one uses a marvell based solution.. would be interesting to find out more about it Feb 03 12:02:10 buz: very probably the design has been finished before htey could make any changed Feb 03 12:02:22 hardware spins are expensive Feb 03 12:02:25 yes Feb 03 12:02:32 then again, the design wasnt set in stone until january Feb 03 12:02:39 bluetooth was there but they didnt know if it actually worked Feb 03 12:02:41 http://www.marvell.com/press/pressNewsDisplay.do?releaseID=479 Feb 03 12:03:05 Oh, and the reason why OLPC wanted that device because the onboard micro could work standalone with the laptop off, to preserve grid comms. That would suit a Neo2 very nicely too! Feb 03 12:03:21 seems over the top for a phone Feb 03 12:03:28 AIUI, the driver is binary. Feb 03 12:03:35 LoneTech: marvell are bloody difficult even if you are buying large quantites of parts... Feb 03 12:03:36 Nothing is over the top .... ever! Rule 1 of geekdom :P Feb 03 12:03:39 SpeedEvil: olpc is developping an OSS one i thin Feb 03 12:03:55 most of the peopple i know who do pxa designs are now looking for other chips... Feb 03 12:03:56 http://www.laptop.org/laptop/hardware/specs.shtml Feb 03 12:04:04 as for TCP IP offloading, I don't care much for that Feb 03 12:04:12 Wake on wifi might be nice. Feb 03 12:04:25 wake on wifi might suck a lot of juice Feb 03 12:04:27 but AIUI, it's not really low power. Feb 03 12:04:31 afaict it doesn't end up being offloading so much as they've put an entire system in there. Feb 03 12:04:43 At least 100mW, so what's that... Feb 03 12:04:58 36 hours for that alone - or so. Feb 03 12:05:03 Wireless: Marvell Libertas 88W8388+88W8015, 802.11b/g compatible; dual adjustable, rotating coaxial antennas; supports diversity reception Feb 03 12:05:16 it have some kind of rewritable memory inside? in case there's a bug in tcp/ip stack... Feb 03 12:05:22 I don't have a feel for the actual size of the Neo. 'Think I'll make a cardboard cutout. Feb 03 12:05:24 ynezz: most likely Feb 03 12:05:30 AIUI it has a loadable blob. Feb 03 12:05:37 fluffs: audio stuff almost in alsa-kernel. a few minor things to sort out Feb 03 12:06:28