**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 08 02:59:59 2007 Feb 08 03:01:51 counter Feb 08 03:01:51 4 days 02:25:44 (4.101 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.101 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.101 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 08 04:12:19 counter Feb 08 04:12:19 4 days 01:15:15 (4.052 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.052 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.052 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 08 08:36:50 moin Feb 08 08:37:06 moring Feb 08 08:37:37 ;) i tried to google a shop or price for the hw ?! Feb 08 08:37:45 350 usd Feb 08 08:37:56 did u have a link 4 europe? Feb 08 08:38:18 not yet Feb 08 08:38:25 ok thx Feb 08 08:38:48 TRIsoft: ping Feb 08 08:39:07 perhaps it starts here a little bit later Feb 08 08:39:14 counter Feb 08 08:39:14 3 days 20:48:19 (3.867 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.867 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.867 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (171) Feb 08 08:40:14 hrw: pong :D Feb 08 08:40:17 ahh Feb 08 08:40:34 * XorA does the 3 days dance Feb 08 08:41:17 TRIsoft: will you sell neo1973 for europe? Feb 08 08:41:50 XorA: 3 days and I will finally be able to open some links which I see on one jabber conference from time to time Feb 08 08:42:46 hrw: Let's say, we're working on it ;-) Feb 08 08:43:16 TRIsoft: thats nice to notice ;)) Feb 08 08:44:16 Lot of work / talks in the last weeks, no final info yet Feb 08 08:46:14 ok i keep watching Feb 08 08:46:50 Actually we wait for out samples next week, like you all do ;-) Feb 08 08:46:55 *our Feb 08 08:47:44 hehe Feb 08 08:48:06 but if u got them .. there will be a post on the website Feb 08 08:49:20 Sure. Pics and everything. I guess that we can announce something more in 1-2 weeks Feb 08 08:49:35 oki ^^ Feb 08 08:49:48 no idea yet about when preorders are open? Feb 08 08:50:26 so i have to be a developer to get one Feb 08 08:50:56 for 2007-03-11: anybody can get one Feb 08 08:51:05 Personal guess: The preorders will be avail. short before March 11th Feb 08 08:51:10 just don't except too much from device yet ;-) Feb 08 08:52:04 The ppl. at FIC try to work 25/7 but only manage 24/7... :D Feb 08 08:52:29 can this be read wrong?: "devices for anybody (targeting developers) (2007-03-11)" Feb 08 08:52:47 (ie.. "you have to be developer to get one") Feb 08 08:52:56 ? Feb 08 08:53:09 ah Feb 08 08:53:15 I read your sentence wrong :DD Feb 08 08:53:31 (the one before the question mark...) Feb 08 08:53:49 what about: "devices for *anybody* (targeting developers) (2007-03-11)" ? Feb 08 08:53:55 :) Feb 08 08:54:52 *ANYBODY* Feb 08 08:55:22 OK ;-) Feb 08 08:55:43 still mentioning that is meant for developers anyway Feb 08 08:55:54 just that you can get even if you are not one Feb 08 08:56:22 It's the "Google Beta" trick. You may use it, but you can't complain, cause it's in beta-stage ;-) Feb 08 08:56:30 * aloril nods Feb 08 08:57:19 neo beta :P Feb 08 08:58:12 ;D Feb 08 09:07:20 i'll be back *g* Feb 08 09:42:49 samsung iphone http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=17203 Feb 08 09:43:30 looks very neat Feb 08 09:43:35 and the keyboard is much appreciated Feb 08 09:45:20 still wondering about the nokia e90 though Feb 08 09:45:29 that's gonna cost at least a kidney Feb 08 09:59:48 buz: I hope Neo v2 is something like that :) Feb 08 10:00:55 oh _that_ keyboard Feb 08 10:01:05 yes, please, something like that for future Neos ;) Feb 08 10:08:15 personally i'd much rather take a form factor, which makes it actually usable as a phone Feb 08 10:08:46 you know, something like 110x45x20mm Feb 08 10:09:22 or 110x50x20mm, or less Feb 08 10:09:48 plus a 3.5mm audio jack and a mass-market reachabe price point Feb 08 10:11:45 because if you look at it from joe six-pack's point of view, the cell phone is mainly useful as a communication device plus music player Feb 08 10:12:08 because those are the two things most people carry around all the time Feb 08 10:13:39 before cell phone optimised web services become a lot more numerous, mobile internet is a joke for most people Feb 08 10:14:52 opera-mini all the way ;-) Feb 08 10:15:12 yep. java rocks Feb 08 10:15:51 some smart person needs to make a linux app that can load through the opera mini proxy Feb 08 10:16:06 jannu that samsung phone is 104x50x16.4 Feb 08 10:16:14 don't think opera have opened up their protocol Feb 08 10:16:29 CM: and costs under 150€? Feb 08 10:16:42 Heh, probably add a 0 to that. Feb 08 10:16:51 CM: the size is good though Feb 08 10:17:09 Yes, and the keyboard looks nice Feb 08 10:17:35 * CM refers to the pics at: http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-13261-When+the+Korean+GOD+awake%2C+he+gives+us...+the+Samsung+Ultra+Smart+F700.html Feb 08 10:17:40 for mobile internet you fist of all need a browser which starts up really really fast and can handle ajax stuff Feb 08 10:17:50 ..first of all.. Feb 08 10:18:24 coupled with services and sites, which are actually optimised for mobile screen sizes Feb 08 10:20:07 thanks to the latencies in mobile networks, without ajax the web experience is horribly slow Feb 08 10:20:55 everything takes 2-5 seconds. even with 3g Feb 08 10:22:02 it's mostly ok with opera-mini without ajax... what it could do with is image scaling Feb 08 10:22:46 Stephmw: yes it's ok, but is it a pleasure to use? Feb 08 10:23:08 because that's what it usually is on a computer Feb 08 10:23:29 you have a point. I don't break out in goose-pimples using it. Feb 08 10:25:18 I think it's a pretty good measurement that with a 3g phone, my favourite way to e.g. find out where a certain store or place is, is to call one of my friends and as if he/she's close to a computer Feb 08 10:27:37 yes, I have a browser on it, and it handles full size-pages surprsingly well, but still calling 6 or 7 people is much better Feb 08 10:28:36 probably cheaper too, unless you have a flat datarate? Feb 08 10:28:59 iirc it's 1,50€/MB Feb 08 10:29:38 so it probably costs more or less the same Feb 08 10:30:35 that said, mobile internet all in all isn't that bad Feb 08 10:31:01 on the nokia n800 it's actually pretty close to the pc experience Feb 08 10:31:10 it's just the problem with the circuit switched hangovers from PSTN that made into the mobile network Feb 08 10:31:53 yep. and the fact that the form factor is just too small for regular web pages Feb 08 10:33:13 I mean you can have a screen that's large enough for browsing normal web pages, or you can have a device which is actually usable with one hand Feb 08 10:42:27 I've 4€ / 25MB rate Feb 08 11:02:57 hmm. would it be useful to collect some information about carrier pricing in different countries into the wiki? Feb 08 11:03:18 cost of calls, sms, data and other things Feb 08 11:03:49 someone mentioned on the ml that in France even receiving an sms costs something Feb 08 11:04:28 knowing details like that would probably help in designing new cheaper to use applications Feb 08 11:05:48 yeah it often costs something in the US as well Feb 08 11:05:54 depending on the plan you're on Feb 08 11:06:57 something better be pretty darn important for me to pay .10 to receive that SMS message Feb 08 11:07:03 in Finland charging for receiving an sms is illegal, so I was pretty surprised to hear about that Feb 08 11:07:34 do you charge the sender? Feb 08 11:07:36 or is the whole thing just free? Feb 08 11:08:03 yes. sending costs something like 0.07 € Feb 08 11:08:18 wow that's expensive... Feb 08 11:08:30 Now, see here most carriers let you send to someone via email Feb 08 11:08:56 like there's a magic email address associated with each carrier where you can send your message and it'll get routed through them Feb 08 11:09:29 but Finland may be the odd case too, you guys have weird services (not that there's anything wrong with being weird) like buying tickets over SMS. we don't have anything like that here Feb 08 11:09:47 you mean something like number.sms@carrier.com? Feb 08 11:09:50 yeah Feb 08 11:10:34 weird, but then again understandable what with cdma and all Feb 08 11:11:20 how much does it cost then? Feb 08 11:11:32 how much does what cost? email? Feb 08 11:11:35 yes. Feb 08 11:11:41 nobody charges for email Feb 08 11:11:41 it's email Feb 08 11:12:01 the receiver pays their normal rate Feb 08 11:12:10 ok. so the normal data rates apply Feb 08 11:12:17 some plans include a certain number of sms messages a month Feb 08 11:12:32 I have a prepaid phone because I hardly use it Feb 08 11:12:44 yep. we have those package things too. Feb 08 11:12:49 I have minutes in plan. 1 minute == 4 sms Feb 08 11:13:32 here it's funnily enough roughly 0.07€ /minute and /sms Feb 08 11:13:53 which basically makes the sms is a huge rip-off Feb 08 11:14:49 okay, on my prepaid phone, it's .10 to send, .05 to receive Feb 08 11:15:06 so, even with my expensive plan, it's cheaper for me to send then it is for you Feb 08 11:15:07 which is why a phone with integrated msn or irc would sell like crazy here Feb 08 11:15:30 most phones in the US have AIM and or Yahoo, but they charge per message like SMS Feb 08 11:15:35 it's an SMS gateway Feb 08 11:16:00 no one but Microsoft people use SMS in the US, compared to AIM and even Google Talk, it's small Feb 08 11:16:16 yep. i can see why Feb 08 11:16:26 i meant msn sorry Feb 08 11:16:43 ok. Feb 08 11:16:54 that's surprising in a way Feb 08 11:17:20 aim is a given obviously, but i would've quessed that msn is above google talk Feb 08 11:17:25 people only use a message service if people they know are on it. Everyone had AIM Feb 08 11:17:36 it may just be my friends... Feb 08 11:17:47 but Google Talk is popular because you can use it anywhere Feb 08 11:17:51 (ie at work) Feb 08 11:18:10 you don't have to install software Feb 08 11:18:22 so people don't really know about meebo Feb 08 11:18:32 not many Feb 08 11:19:06 over here it's basically msn or irc Feb 08 11:19:16 and then there are holdouts like me who say "You have MSN... and not AIM, Yahoo or GTalk? I guess we won't talk to one another over IM..." Feb 08 11:20:06 yep. that's why it would be critical to get most of the im protocols working on openmoko Feb 08 11:20:25 well, you need internet for that really... Feb 08 11:20:47 donät you have open gprs gateways over there? Feb 08 11:21:08 or is it all carrier controlled Feb 08 11:21:28 I think it's all carrier controlled but I'm not a phone expert, but I suspect it's carrier controlled Feb 08 11:21:54 ouch Feb 08 11:22:03 most things in the US are carrier controlled, which is why we have roaming, etc. Feb 08 11:22:35 it's pretty common to not be able to use your phone while your friend can use his in the same area. it's gotten better but it still happens Feb 08 11:23:56 So your carriers only allow you to do http/mail over gprs or ? Feb 08 11:24:12 I'm not a phone guy, that was speculatioon Feb 08 11:24:17 speculation Feb 08 11:25:02 ok Feb 08 11:25:36 * sjoerd is really interesting to see telepathy on openmoko at some point Feb 08 11:25:56 telepathy? Feb 08 11:26:15 telepathy.freedesktop.org Feb 08 11:26:21 IM/voip framework Feb 08 11:26:51 I'd like to see jabber.el :) Feb 08 11:27:24 It runs openmoko as OS, not emacs :p Feb 08 11:27:45 sjoerd: do a whois on Robot101 on this channel ;) Feb 08 11:28:01 CM: not necessary Feb 08 11:28:06 :) Feb 08 11:28:58 I wonder how good telepathy works over gprs, anyone tried? Feb 08 11:29:17 I suppose it'll depend on the protocol Feb 08 11:29:38 yeah Feb 08 11:29:54 Sure, but voip over gprs? Feb 08 11:30:05 no way Feb 08 11:30:12 Ah, i doubt anyone tried that Feb 08 11:30:19 the latencies are way way too high Feb 08 11:30:35 Well if you have an N770/N800 and have done a voice call with them over gprs, you've basically done that.. Feb 08 11:30:53 it sort of works over 3g Feb 08 11:31:08 but gprs & edge are just too slow Feb 08 11:31:10 Sure, that's how the 3g video calls work Feb 08 11:31:58 costs like hell though Feb 08 11:32:10 unless you have a flat-rate data plan Feb 08 11:32:55 * Robot101 waves Feb 08 11:33:08 whois on Robot101 Feb 08 11:33:16 CM: I've made a gtalk voice call over 3g, not tried GPRS Feb 08 11:33:20 whois Robot101 Feb 08 11:33:27 veroli: you need a / Feb 08 11:33:44 thanks Feb 08 11:33:45 12:03 [FreeNode] -!- Robot101 [n=robot101@light.bluelinux.co.uk] Feb 08 11:33:45 12:03 [FreeNode] -!- ircname : Robert McQueen Feb 08 11:33:45 12:03 [FreeNode] -!- channels : #gpephone #gpe #darcs #openmoko #jokosher #olpc #sugar #tapioca-voip #gstreamer #hal #maemo #telepathy #farsight #Galago #ubuntu-devel #dbus #freedesktop #gift #gaim Feb 08 11:33:49 it says that Feb 08 11:33:52 :D Feb 08 11:33:56 Hehe Feb 08 11:36:32 * Robot101 drinks absurdly strong coffee Feb 08 11:36:45 I think the espresso machine was one of the wisest investments this company has made. :D Feb 08 11:36:50 uhm, gprs is usable for voice calls according to the ones who held the "secure voip" talk on 23c3 Feb 08 11:37:06 ...well unless the network is too crowded ;) Feb 08 11:37:37 In my experience the latency of gprs is quite high.. But that might have changed in recent years/depend on your provider Feb 08 11:38:00 http://wwwcip.cs.fau.de/23c3/official/video/23C3-1495-en-green_phone.m4v < there's the video Feb 08 11:38:07 I've used ssh over gprs, worked pretty ok Feb 08 11:38:46 it's usable for ssh here as well Feb 08 11:38:49 not a party, but okay Feb 08 11:38:52 gprs uses spare time slots, so if you have many people making gsm calls in your cell, you won't get much data trough Feb 08 11:39:52 That depends on your operator. I know that some operators here give priority for gprs over gsm calls Feb 08 11:39:57 well, take a look at the video - quite inspiring ;) Feb 08 11:56:03 ' Feb 08 12:04:45 mhh i wonder how carriers account for video calls. if those have a per minute instead of traffic fee, maybe one could push tcp/ip inside the video stream? Feb 08 12:04:56 collecting gprs ping times from different networks might be useful Feb 08 12:04:59 (not really an option without 3G in neo though) Feb 08 12:05:16 To get an idea whether voip over gprs has any base in reality Feb 08 12:05:42 voice over CSD gsm-data should work Feb 08 12:05:58 http://go.theregister.com/feed/http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/02/08/nokia_frees_smart2go/ w00000t Feb 08 12:06:34 inho the main selling point of voip is still true flat rate calls Feb 08 12:07:02 " Free maps covering 150 countries will also be made available," Feb 08 12:07:05 What the hell... Feb 08 12:07:14 Why?? Feb 08 12:07:15 I mean, it's nice and all. Feb 08 12:07:16 But why? Feb 08 12:07:20 to fuck over tomtom and others? Feb 08 12:07:27 What's the point? Feb 08 12:07:35 predatory pricing Feb 08 12:07:52 pushing gps onto phones Feb 08 12:07:52 turning navigation into a commodity Feb 08 12:08:02 jannu: yup Feb 08 12:08:02 I'm going to have to get used to this kind of stuff. Feb 08 12:08:08 and charging for extra services on top Feb 08 12:08:08 then make money from location based advertising Feb 08 12:08:11 exactly Feb 08 12:08:18 going head to head with google, too Feb 08 12:08:28 or location based service databases Feb 08 12:08:37 OH! It doesn't navigate for free. Feb 08 12:08:49 just like the mobile phone companies didnt like to be dependent on ms, they want to avoid dependence on google Feb 08 12:09:01 In fact... they're turning it in a usage license. Feb 08 12:09:04 That's sort of evil. Feb 08 12:09:20 in many countries that might not even hold up in court Feb 08 12:09:29 in switzerland, for example, only software itself is truly protected Feb 08 12:09:45 other copyrighted things fall under share use Feb 08 12:09:47 fair Feb 08 12:10:42 wonder how "free" the maps will be... Feb 08 12:10:58 if the map data has road information and isn't closed with restrictive licenses is shouldn't too ahrd to reimplement navigation Feb 08 12:10:58 mjr, free for that specific program probably Feb 08 12:11:05 basically, if you can download them free as in beer, people will use them for whatever Feb 08 12:11:05 raynet, yeah, seems likely Feb 08 12:11:15 buz, seems equally likely Feb 08 12:11:23 maybe not entirely legal Feb 08 12:11:32 but then again, life itself might be illegal these days Feb 08 12:11:34 in mapping and navigation the hardest part is getting the data Feb 08 12:11:37 buz, that would probably depend on jurisdiction Feb 08 12:11:44 mjr: likely Feb 08 12:11:58 here in Finland as well there are stricter rules for software and a bit less strict, personal use-wise, for other stuff Feb 08 12:12:05 mjr: same in switzerland Feb 08 12:12:14 and maps would hardly be considered software i guess Feb 08 12:12:18 yes, I noticed that, hence "as well" :) Feb 08 12:12:25 oh Feb 08 12:13:08 actually even the copyright law overhaul looks like it will continue to allow downloading citing the idea that customers cant possibly figure out what sources are legit Feb 08 12:13:56 iirc there already was a court decision in italy leaning in that direction Feb 08 12:14:14 downloading for non-profit uses is always legal Feb 08 12:14:20 or something like that Feb 08 12:14:38 here, on the other hand, since start of 2006, it is only legal to download from legitimate sources Feb 08 12:14:42 that possibly true for the US even. the RIAA always sues you about uploading Feb 08 12:14:55 which has raised several questions on how are people supposed to know Feb 08 12:15:07 no, actually it was along the lines of sharing for non-profit reasons is legal Feb 08 12:15:18 around here sharing likely is not legal Feb 08 12:15:23 but it never went to court Feb 08 12:15:52 anyway, in five years were probably going to be in a more or less drm-free world Feb 08 12:15:53 i'm waiting for the day the IFPI bullies the children of some judge or something Feb 08 12:16:20 jee.. päivän voitto.. ifdown -a väärässä terminaalissa. kyseinen kone 100km päässä Feb 08 12:16:51 onneks on kivat ajokelitkin Feb 08 12:17:05 ups.. wrong channel :) Feb 08 12:17:11 not my day it seems.. Feb 08 12:17:18 double whammy Feb 08 12:17:26 need more coffee Feb 08 12:17:32 raynet: or less Feb 08 12:17:41 jannu: you must be an optimist Feb 08 12:18:03 buz: no. a sarcastic actually Feb 08 12:18:21 well i'm waiting for the ultimative drm Feb 08 12:18:26 once that comes, consumer backlash will be huge Feb 08 12:18:57 (not that drm could actually work like it's supposed to) Feb 08 12:19:13 buz: didn't we already have the sony rootkit Feb 08 12:19:25 much more stringent Feb 08 12:19:31 buz: ok, most people never heard about it, but still Feb 08 12:19:37 think vista hd stupidity ++ Feb 08 12:19:56 or something like "wait, why can't i watch my very own wedding video?" Feb 08 12:20:28 i wonder how map copyrights go globally. Feb 08 12:20:44 in some countries maps cannot be copyrighted (except for their "art") Feb 08 12:21:23 unless you add errors to the maps, thus it wont represent reality and can be copyrighted (basicly the errors are copyrighted) Feb 08 12:22:18 raynet: not sure about maps copyrights as such, buut iirc the EC is working on opening up all geodesic data gathered by european government institutions Feb 08 12:22:40 i.e. coordinates Feb 08 12:22:50 raynet: indeed, Ordnance Survey maps have such errors, purposefully to catch copyright infringements Feb 08 12:23:12 jannu: great. hope they make it free. not like the finnish GIS info that you can buy with annual fee Feb 08 12:23:44 raynet: well, it's EC so the results of that might come around 2050 or so Feb 08 12:24:08 Hmm, do we know for sure if the neo1973 will take a 2Gb mini-sd card? Feb 08 12:24:10 jannu: just in time for Openmoko V43 Feb 08 12:24:16 I know it will take a 1G, any news on the 2G? Feb 08 12:24:25 not yet Feb 08 12:25:25 yeah, on the 2G there's still just the word via Sean from their vendors that it should work Feb 08 12:25:29 raynet: hopefully someone will come up with the immortality drug before that Feb 08 12:25:59 oh, wait, you asked about mini-sds. The Neo won't take any of those ;] Feb 08 12:26:02 not sure just how hard it would be for them to actually test with a real card you know Feb 08 12:26:33 buz: testing with one card isn' the whole story Feb 08 12:26:59 well test with sandisks 2G card and tell if it works with that one Feb 08 12:27:06 it's available globally Feb 08 12:27:46 buz: true. plus it's likely to be among the cheapest options almost everywhere Feb 08 12:27:58 * [g2] has a couple micro-SDs Feb 08 12:28:13 kignston is much cheaper here Feb 08 12:28:19 but not sure if they sell a 2G one Feb 08 12:28:23 1G is like 10? now Feb 08 12:28:57 buz: yep. those prices drop really fast nowadays Feb 08 12:28:58 Yeah - there is a premium for tiny ones a bit though. Feb 08 12:29:32 SpeedEvil: plus you can't get 4G on either mini or micro yet Feb 08 12:29:33 supposedly theres a 4G microsdhc one even Feb 08 12:29:40 4G minisdhc is out Feb 08 12:30:02 ok. supposedly being a bit pricey? Feb 08 12:30:19 [g2]: hi Feb 08 12:30:25 dooh, 2G sandisk is 4 times the price of 1G kingston Feb 08 12:30:29 <[g2]> hrw hey! Feb 08 12:30:58 [g2]: I read your discussion with noidd few days ago. Feb 08 12:31:22 <[g2]> hrw Did that sound like a good summary ? Feb 08 12:31:32 [g2]: quite good Feb 08 12:31:42 buz: it seems that the biggest option is always overpriced Feb 08 12:32:33 <[g2]> hrw you're getting a phone in a couple days no ? Feb 08 12:32:50 [g2]: next week Feb 08 12:33:01 <[g2]> that's very exciting :) Feb 08 12:33:18 [g2]: yes Feb 08 12:33:18 buz: ouch. in Finland a 2G mini-sd is around 18€ whereas a 2G micro-sd is 45€ Feb 08 12:33:32 jannu: size matters Feb 08 12:33:41 much the same here Feb 08 12:33:58 <[g2]> hrw nod. The micro's are really small and have a SD carrier too Feb 08 12:33:59 As I see it. 2G micro-sd - 30 quid. Cheapest 1G SD - 6 or 7 Feb 08 12:34:08 * [g2] wonders if there's a mini carrier also Feb 08 12:34:45 here a regular 2G sd costs the same as a mini-sd Feb 08 12:34:58 <[g2]> hrw I'll probably be compelled to build the openmoko release after it comes out Feb 08 12:35:15 * [g2] may have to give up some sleep for that Feb 08 12:35:36 in 1G they all cost the same (c. 10 €) Feb 08 12:36:04 <[g2]> I've been quite distracted with video/audio streaming stuff Feb 08 12:36:44 <[g2]> hrw any more news on the BT chipset ? Feb 08 12:37:26 stupid question, but is the BT on the openmoko 2.0? Feb 08 12:37:40 BT 2.0 that is Feb 08 12:37:48 [g2]: its CSR chipset - bt 2.0 with edr Feb 08 12:38:01 any more on power? Feb 08 12:38:07 <[g2]> hrw thx Feb 08 12:38:14 The bluetooth Feb 08 12:38:18 [g2]: usb connected iirc Feb 08 12:38:54 great. bt 2.0 means that music & file sharing over bt should be pretty fast Feb 08 12:39:02 <[g2]> hrw Harald's post about usb console looked really sweet Feb 08 12:39:10 2.1Mbps real transfer Feb 08 12:39:28 my cablemodem is faster than that ;)= Feb 08 12:39:42 buz: my cable do 1536/170 Feb 08 12:39:45 jannu, plus for using those DAVE storage devices ;) Feb 08 12:39:54 IRDA would be a nice complement. Feb 08 12:40:04 I consider IRDA obsolete Feb 08 12:40:11 mjr: yep. and it's fast enough for audio streaming over bt Feb 08 12:40:25 Well, yes. It is very small, and can give high bandwidths at short ranges. Feb 08 12:40:34 <[g2]> jannu mjr not if you want to do FLAC Feb 08 12:40:49 <[g2]> but fine for ogg Feb 08 12:41:13 Even mp3, it's what, 15 seconds a track. Feb 08 12:41:14 <[g2]> clearly BT 2.0 edr is the way to go Feb 08 12:41:16 I don't think the rest of the phone is quite hifi enough for your flacs ;) Feb 08 12:41:22 [g2]: yep. but I was mainly thinking about for the situations where your friend asks you what you are listening to Feb 08 12:41:55 [g2]: just stream the stuff to his phone over bt Feb 08 12:42:08 <[g2]> jannu nod, but really that'll be on the micro-sd, ipod, or D.A.V.E device Feb 08 12:42:16 * XorA cries at the complicators Feb 08 12:42:49 * [g2] has tunes on a micro-sd that is either in the Palm TX or a780 Feb 08 12:42:58 [g2]: yep. obviously Feb 08 12:43:14 <[g2]> and there's speaker on the a780 Feb 08 12:43:19 incidentally, any news on the upcoming DAVE's extent of openness, ie. can one install a bt-wifi gateway on one? :] Feb 08 12:43:44 * [g2] wonders how hackable it'll be Feb 08 12:44:23 [g2]: yes, but i was thinking about public places. where you don't want to annoy people too much Feb 08 12:44:39 [g2]: more like the zune sharing, but without drm Feb 08 12:45:02 <[g2]> jannu I was thinking about simply securing the device and extending it a little Feb 08 12:45:45 [g2]: i was still speaking about just the phone Feb 08 12:45:53 <[g2]> jannu stuff like being able to pair/wifi with my wife's/kids/friends devices with access control Feb 08 12:46:23 <[g2]> jannu I see openmoko as simply a sane linux box Feb 08 12:46:36 <[g2]> just scp over BT Feb 08 12:46:48 <[g2]> or NFS over BT or whatever Feb 08 12:46:59 <[g2]> obex anyone Feb 08 12:47:07 [g2]: i see it as a possibility for an actually usable communication device & audio player Feb 08 12:47:37 <[g2]> s/audio player/audio play remote control/ :) Feb 08 12:47:43 [g2]: plus possibly a decent notebook & calendar Feb 08 12:47:50 [g2]: yeah. that too Feb 08 12:48:06 <[g2]> I'm all setup for audio/video streaming Feb 08 12:48:17 <[g2]> vlc actually has a web interface Feb 08 12:48:37 <[g2]> so initially, a simple web browsing allows changing video streams Feb 08 12:48:43 [g2]: there are usb-to-vga converters as well Feb 08 12:49:03 <[g2]> jannu I'm just talking about using the phone as a remote Feb 08 12:49:49 [g2]: ok. I was thinking about hauling your multimedia stuff around with it and plugging it into the home theater system at a friends house Feb 08 12:49:52 <[g2]> clearly when one is away, it can function as a audio player Feb 08 12:50:30 <[g2]> jannu that's where DAVE or an ipod/video ipod would come in Feb 08 12:50:39 [g2]: along with the remote you could do all sorts of home autmation things with it Feb 08 12:50:49 * [g2] plans to :) Feb 08 12:51:01 [g2]: and that's where the security stuff matters as well Feb 08 12:51:02 <[g2]> really all A/V fonw Feb 08 12:51:04 <[g2]> now Feb 08 12:51:29 <[g2]> exactly on the security end Feb 08 12:51:55 jannu: usb-to-vga need usb 2.0 speed Feb 08 12:52:16 [g2]: i'm actually hoping that memory card sizes will go up so quickly that in a year or so I can get rid of all separate media players Feb 08 12:52:19 <[g2]> simply doing stuff like locking up the contacts on the phone, then if you lose one's phone or it's stolen, there's still the crypto to crack Feb 08 12:52:40 jannu: micro-sd pretty much means one chip. Feb 08 12:52:57 It's going to lag 4 times or so behind the edges of SD. Feb 08 12:53:03 [g2]: yes. I was also thinking about storing all information per sim card and locking it up if the card is changed Feb 08 12:53:06 <[g2]> jannu IMHO it's a playback/battery issue Feb 08 12:53:27 Yeah. Feb 08 12:53:33 SpeedEvil: yeah. I know. Feb 08 12:53:44 IMO, as a MP3 player, the life of the neo won't be great. Feb 08 12:53:48 i hope neo will have a bigger sd slot Feb 08 12:53:54 As it has no hardware decoger. Feb 08 12:54:00 SpeedEvil: which is why a full sd slot would be a must Feb 08 12:54:00 Decoder. Feb 08 12:54:05 <[g2]> buz the specs page says micro-sd Feb 08 12:54:17 So the CPU has to be active all the time. Feb 08 12:54:27 Which sucks battery down hard. Feb 08 12:54:45 i meant to write neo v2 Feb 08 12:54:47 Full SD slot means the phone gets bigger. Feb 08 12:54:52 SpeedEvil: yep. a separate multi-codec dsp would be a must Feb 08 12:55:04 SpeedEvil: not necessarily Feb 08 12:55:07 * [g2] isn't really impressed with the iPhone from Apple, but they _did_ get the two batteries part right (one phone, one music player) Feb 08 12:55:08 I'd be moderagely happy with hardware MP3 Feb 08 12:55:39 As the chips are comparatively cheap. Feb 08 12:56:00 SpeedEvil: i quess most people would, but it's the same problem as with the im protocols Feb 08 12:56:06 Or a DSP with a little memory. Feb 08 12:56:21 So you can wake the CPU up every second or several, and throw it some data. Feb 08 12:56:36 the cpu will have to occasionaly wake up anyhow Feb 08 12:56:37 <[g2]> jannu almost all of the Sansa line has a micro-SD slot Feb 08 12:56:47 sansa audio quality is truly crappy Feb 08 12:56:57 worse than even shuffle 2 Feb 08 12:57:24 SpeedEvil: unless you support all codecs, youäre going to leave some users in the cold Feb 08 12:57:29 Sure. Feb 08 12:57:34 <[g2]> buz I doubt the phones music quality will be better Feb 08 12:57:43 I don't care about leaving some users in the cold. Feb 08 12:57:43 SpeedEvil: besides, imho users shouldn't need to care about file formats Feb 08 12:57:53 If it means the phone is cheaper and works better for most. Feb 08 12:57:54 SpeedEvil: it's music, it plays. period Feb 08 12:57:55 <[g2]> rockbox is partially running on the sansa Feb 08 12:58:10 As unfortunately, multi-standard chips are at the moment more expensive. Feb 08 12:58:33 <[g2]> SpeedEvil nod, it's a cost/feature trade-off Feb 08 12:58:53 <[g2]> and will continue to be for another 10-20 years Feb 08 12:58:56 Especially as 90%+++ people are happy with mp3. Feb 08 12:59:09 (real people, not geeks) Feb 08 12:59:11 :) Feb 08 12:59:21 [g2]: i'm quessing it'll be like that forever Feb 08 12:59:47 [g2]: the real question is when the cost difference becomes so small that it doesn't matter anymore Feb 08 12:59:48 In the UK, DAB is an interesting case. Digital radio has recently been brought out nationwide, with several extra channels. Feb 08 13:00:08 SpeedEvil: don't forget itms and aac Feb 08 13:00:09 However, last year, the regulator dropped the 128K bitrate (MP2, not even mp3) Feb 08 13:00:19 id be happy with 192vbr mp3 if the AD converter was decent Feb 08 13:00:21 No, that's irrelevant. Feb 08 13:00:27 there is a micro-sd? as opposed to mini-sd? Feb 08 13:00:29 crap Feb 08 13:00:59 SpeedEvil: aac irrelevant? Feb 08 13:01:02 <[g2]> jannu having lived through the last 25 years of PCs, I can imaging that the next 25 years of computing advances will be equally amazing Feb 08 13:01:16 The regulator now says 'bitrates can be as low as the provider wants, commercial competition will determine bitrate. Feb 08 13:01:30 It's irrelevant for the currently rolled out DAB network. Feb 08 13:01:37 In the UK. Feb 08 13:02:09 We now see Digital radio consistently sounding worse than FM. Feb 08 13:02:19 And most people don't notice. Feb 08 13:02:27 SpeedEvil: oh for that. I was thinking about stored media, not radio Feb 08 13:02:47 Yeah - at some times, it drops speech programs down to 64K mono. Feb 08 13:03:08 And music at 96K MP2 is insane. Feb 08 13:03:15 people still listen to radio? Feb 08 13:03:27 In the UK, yes, quite a lot. Feb 08 13:03:37 The BBC radio services are a large driver. Feb 08 13:03:39 [g2]: I'm not pessimistic about development. it's just that by reality more complex (multi-codec) chips will always cost more than simpler (single codec) ones Feb 08 13:03:51 i think the only time i ever listen radio is when the RDS stuff in the car announces traffic stuff Feb 08 13:04:13 [g2]: but I'd daresay that in 6 months time the price difference will become nonexistent Feb 08 13:04:36 * SpeedEvil listens to radio 4 a lot. Feb 08 13:04:51 me too me too Feb 08 13:05:10 imho right now the main point of edge is internet radio Feb 08 13:05:10 <[g2]> jannu I'm just saying in the next few years decoding all sane audio formats up to CD quality will be at the same price point Feb 08 13:05:26 <[g2]> based on .25nm logic Feb 08 13:05:47 <[g2]> ok maybe 25nm :) Feb 08 13:05:51 It'll be a while till your average MP3 /... decoder is on 25nm. Feb 08 13:05:59 [g2]: yep. i'd guess so too Feb 08 13:06:14 <[g2]> SpeedEvil doubt that. you know Nvida bout PortalPlayer right ? Feb 08 13:06:31 no? Feb 08 13:06:45 http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-13261-When+the+Korean+GOD+awake%2C+he+gives+us...+the+Samsung+Ultra+Smart+F700.html Feb 08 13:06:51 <[g2]> SpeedEvil deals already closed for about a month or so Feb 08 13:07:01 Now thats a phone Feb 08 13:07:14 Ah - bought. Feb 08 13:07:15 yes. Feb 08 13:08:00 Matt_PI: probably with a price to match as well Feb 08 13:08:00 There is still a fair bit of cheaper fab out there at much, much lower prices per chip than the latest geometry plant. Feb 08 13:08:00 Proably as expenive as the iPhone Feb 08 13:08:10 And at looser geometry. Feb 08 13:08:24 Commodity chips, with the exception of RAM are rarely at teh bleeding edge. Feb 08 13:08:42 Matt_PI: so not exactly a mass market gadget Feb 08 13:09:06 Matt_PI: still a cool device. too bad the software isn't open Feb 08 13:09:27 SpeedEvil: flash too, i think Feb 08 13:09:31 yeah. Feb 08 13:09:33 That too. Feb 08 13:09:49 but really, doesnt get any more commodity than memory Feb 08 13:10:00 Anoter phone map app: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/02/08/nokia_frees_smart2go/ Feb 08 13:10:09 Matt_PI: and the bundled software probably won't let you do half the things the hardware is capable of Feb 08 13:10:30 buz: logic, decoder chips, microcontrollers, ... Feb 08 13:10:34 It may be once OpenMoko gets a foothold and flash can be done with SVG Feb 08 13:10:54 All rarely near the cutting edge of geometry apart from special purpose chips. Feb 08 13:17:15 http://the.fuchsia-design.com/ this Guy also works on Joost ....Joost is mostly based on open standard /open source coode Feb 08 13:17:20 <[g2]> SpeedEvil Core 2's are commodity chips and Athlons are both at 65nm now Feb 08 13:17:34 Yes - processors are an exception. Feb 08 13:17:38 <[g2]> iirc the PP chips were 130nm Feb 08 13:17:52 I mean stuff other than stuff which has to be blazingly fast. Feb 08 13:17:54 still. 65nm and 25nm are worlds apart Feb 08 13:18:00 <[g2]> there's a bunch of FPGA and little ARMS like LPCs Feb 08 13:18:16 <[g2]> jannu that was 4 years out for the 25nm Feb 08 13:18:40 For stuff that's designed to be cheap, it rarely sits near the bleeding edge. Feb 08 13:18:50 Apart from stuff like RAM/flash where it has to. Feb 08 13:18:53 <[g2]> Intel is goin 45nm in late '07 or '08 Feb 08 13:18:55 /CPU Feb 08 13:19:34 [g2]: ok. dsps in 25nm in 4 years. i'd have to agree with that Feb 08 13:20:05 <[g2]> my point is in 4 years 65-70nm will be "trailing tech" Feb 08 13:20:40 [g2]: but for cpus 25nm is probably going to be trickier Feb 08 13:21:12 <[g2]> jannu not that much trickier than all the previous generations that were all pretty tricky :) Feb 08 13:29:52 <[g2]> jannu Ok... there's the url I was looking for http://www.photonics.com/content/news/2007/January/26/86252.aspx Feb 08 13:30:07 <[g2]> 160K in a white blood cell Feb 08 13:30:19 <[g2]> "There's plenty of room at the bottom" Feb 08 13:34:13 mh just look at cells, really Feb 08 13:34:20 a lot of data in there ;) Feb 08 13:38:00 <[g2]> buz nod GBytes :) Feb 08 13:58:12 LittleIdiot: thanks for the video you linked. That's a very interesting talk on cellphone encryption, just watched it. Feb 08 13:58:44 I hope those two presenters get a Neo quickly, they're good ambassadors. ;-) Feb 08 14:00:14 In case someone else wants to watch it, here's the URL again: (big download) Feb 08 14:00:22 http://wwwcip.cs.fau.de/23c3/official/video/23C3-1495-en-green_phone.m4v Feb 08 14:03:12 Hi Mickey, taking a breather from the grind? ;-) Feb 08 14:07:09 [g2]: wow. hadn't heard about this before Feb 08 14:07:54 [g2]: have to look a bit more into that. Feb 08 14:08:55 Anyone know how GSM data calls are generally charged in the UK and how easy it is to set them up? Feb 08 14:09:31 SpeedEvil: on most networks take a large sized reamer and bend over Feb 08 14:09:47 jannu: It was on Slashdot a week or two ago. This is good infrastructure/enabling tech. Nanotech is coming, in due course. All these things facilitate the way. Feb 08 14:10:30 Is that based on knowledge of the UK market, or general principles? Feb 08 14:10:31 :) Feb 08 14:10:44 Morgreet: too bad software doesn't seem to be able to keep up Feb 08 14:10:49 whoa, nanotech? openmoko is leading the way, I understand :) Feb 08 14:10:57 Nanotech is coming. I would be astonished if it's not here in a thousand years. Feb 08 14:11:08 Narrowing down _when_ is the hard part. Feb 08 14:11:28 SpeedEvil: knowledge of the prices, a lot of time the bastards wont let you use your pre-paid minutes Feb 08 14:11:43 XorA: and that won't change, either, because greed is everywhere. The solution has to lie in peer-to-peer solutions, either wifi or mesh or similar. If a central corp is in the loop, the wallet will always suffer. Feb 08 14:12:08 Nanotech as in general purpose nanotech, which lets you construct arbitrary objects for only marginal energy cost. Feb 08 14:12:21 SpeedEvil: GPRS is a whole lot cheaper as t-mobile only charge 7.50 GBP for unlimited use Feb 08 14:12:24 Morgreet: there are _horrible_ problems with mesh. Feb 08 14:12:42 Thanks. I was wondering about that. Feb 08 14:12:48 SpeedEvil: Good. Ee are problem solvers. Feb 08 14:12:55 s/Ee/We/ Feb 08 14:12:55 Morgreet meant: SpeedEvil: Good. We are problem solvers. Feb 08 14:12:57 Unsolvable problems. Feb 08 14:13:02 In many cases. Feb 08 14:13:35 SpeedEvil: yesterday you used the word "impossible" a lot. Today you are using "unsolvable". Kind of regressive guy, aren't you. ;-) Feb 08 14:13:45 If you have a mesh, and the average hop distance to the target device is 20 hops, then your bandwidth drops to around 1/20^2 - 1/400th Feb 08 14:13:54 And that's best case. Feb 08 14:14:15 In real life, you're going to get congestion becasue the mesh is not evenly spread. Feb 08 14:14:40 Then you run into the problem with current wavebands that distant stations you can't recieve up the noise floor. Feb 08 14:14:46 heya Feb 08 14:14:52 SpeedEvil: Oh, you're so right. And of course that's why P2P can never POSSIBLY work. Oh wait .... Feb 08 14:15:00 Hi Mickey Feb 08 14:15:20 Morgreet: indeed. i'm having to schedule between preparing for my thesis defence and openmoko related work. Feb 08 14:15:23 For evenly spread stations, as r increases, the number of stations goes up by r^2, and their signal contribution goes up linearly with r. Feb 08 14:15:29 Morgreet: unsolvable like there's an infinite number of primes Feb 08 14:15:38 P2P is quite different - it is _not_ a mesh. Feb 08 14:15:50 It's multiple point to point connections. Feb 08 14:15:59 you can work around it with some infrastructure Feb 08 14:16:03 There is no interference in that sense. Feb 08 14:16:15 True - however, you need at least several layers. Feb 08 14:16:37 mickeyl: good luck on the viva. Most examiners are very helpful, they *want* you to pass if you know your stuff, so you'll do fine. :-) Feb 08 14:16:46 thanks :) Feb 08 14:16:53 SpeedEvil: yep, something order log (link distance of mesh) Feb 08 14:17:06 You have to have 'uplinks' to the proper net quite often - especially with adverse conditions where all of the traffic may be routed through one node. Feb 08 14:17:09 more often than not you have more clue on the topic than they do anyhow Feb 08 14:17:13 and you should have Feb 08 14:17:26 60Ghz helps _lots_ in this. Feb 08 14:17:40 SpeedEvil: really? Feb 08 14:17:42 As the atmosphere absorbs it, and you don't get the problem with far stations interfering. Feb 08 14:17:52 SpeedEvil: ah, i see Feb 08 14:17:57 indeed. I think I'm probably the most educated middleware expert on the panel, however they are allowed to ask questions from their domains and then I must improvise how that correlates to my work. these kind of questions are what I'm afraid of Feb 08 14:17:57 However, the downside of that is the range. Feb 08 14:17:58 make sense Feb 08 14:17:58 wtf uses 60GHz networks? Feb 08 14:18:09 60Ghz is upcoming. Feb 08 14:18:18 It's recently got licenced in lots of places. Feb 08 14:18:21 11a isnt even 1/10 of that Feb 08 14:18:38 The idea is that it is line of sight - but it's in a band that is lightly absorbed by the atmosphere. Feb 08 14:18:49 In a kilometer or so, you can't pick it up. Feb 08 14:18:54 (might be ten, I forget) Feb 08 14:19:26 This is a big plus, because you don't have nodes outside your range that you can't decode making the band noisier. Feb 08 14:20:24 if it's LoS you might as well go laser or some such Feb 08 14:20:38 it's not quite LOS. Feb 08 14:20:42 It goes through some stuff. Feb 08 14:20:45 Not much. Feb 08 14:20:57 so does laser, but afterwards there's not much left Feb 08 14:21:00 And it has significant rain penetration. Feb 08 14:21:05 Depends on the power :) Feb 08 14:21:20 well lets say IF laser goes thru, not much is left Feb 08 14:22:12 Imagine a party - how much quieter it would be if the people that you can't understand because they are too far away are inaudible completely. Feb 08 14:22:32 counter Feb 08 14:22:32 3 days 15:04:59 (3.628 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.628 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.628 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (172) Feb 08 14:22:45 ooh *exciting* Feb 08 14:22:54 :P Feb 08 14:22:56 week... Feb 08 14:23:26 if everything go fast Feb 08 14:23:34 * SpeedEvil mehs. Feb 08 14:23:44 Will be nice to get stuck in and produce stuff ... instead of arguing against people who say stuff is impossible. Feb 08 14:23:45 5 weeks for me. Feb 08 14:23:57 I'm not saying it's impossible. Feb 08 14:24:01 +can't wait ... Feb 08 14:24:17 I'm saying there are well known papers in the field that argue persuasively that it's impossible. Feb 08 14:24:32 (a general worldwide mesh network on one frequency) Feb 08 14:25:02 Yes, you can do it with multiple overlaid networks at different frequencies, with some with longhauls. Feb 08 14:25:08 theres way too little bandwidth outthere Feb 08 14:25:11 Yes. Feb 08 14:25:32 you dont even need to do the math, it's frigging obvious Feb 08 14:25:32 Wireless is 'hot' - but never underestimate the bandwidth of a truckload of fibre. Feb 08 14:25:35 Or something :) Feb 08 14:25:51 heck even one multimode fibre Feb 08 14:25:57 Yeah. Feb 08 14:26:13 There are ways that you can up the effective carrying capacity of wireless. Feb 08 14:26:18 SpeedEvil: yeah, I remember at the time of 14.4K modems, plenty of papers that said we couldn't do domestic networking much faster by Shannon. /sigh Everything is possible in engineering. We just move the goalposts when necessary. Feb 08 14:26:20 and you generally dont lay one at a time Feb 08 14:26:56 Just needs a basic look-forward attitude, instead of a "we can't" one. Feb 08 14:27:03 right now we cant Feb 08 14:27:05 and likely not soon either Feb 08 14:27:08 There are fundamental physical limits. Ignoring them is rather silly. Feb 08 14:27:47 The caveat on shannon/phone was always 'if the phone channel is a 3.?Khz bandwidth, with n signal-noise ration. Feb 08 14:28:02 If it's not, then the limits no longer apply. Feb 08 14:28:04 yeah but we got progressively better phone cabling Feb 08 14:28:11 No, we diddn't. Feb 08 14:28:20 in some places we did Feb 08 14:28:23 The link between exchanges went digital. Feb 08 14:28:23 shorter hauls too Feb 08 14:28:32 Which got 56K possible. Feb 08 14:28:35 SpeedEvil: lol. You obviously don't know how science works. Those limits are actually only the limits within our models. There are no "Laws of Nature", they're just current limitations in our understanding. Feb 08 14:28:43 which is essentially getting better phone cabling Feb 08 14:29:09 Morgreet: The same argument can be made that it will one day be possible to travel faster than light. Feb 08 14:29:09 well you're welcome to proof einstein wrong for one Feb 08 14:29:23 for the time being it's the best model we have Feb 08 14:29:32 This is possible that in the future it will be possible. Feb 08 14:29:44 It does not become possible solely because we want it to be. Feb 08 14:29:50 The universe has to allow it. Feb 08 14:30:12 Yes, we may improve our understanding of the universe beyond what it is, but that does not mean the universe allows it. Feb 08 14:30:15 i'm pretty sure stones will drop towards the floor even in 100000 years from now Feb 08 14:30:20 I didn't change my cabling, and the PTT is still BT. But I'm getting 10Mbps over ADSL on the same copper that previously was supposedly limited by Shannon to a few Kbps. Current limits are only there to be overcome, and that's all the fun of being an engineer. Feb 08 14:30:31 No, it wasn't. Feb 08 14:30:41 it's not the same copper Feb 08 14:30:48 it's only the same copper to the next dlasm Feb 08 14:30:52 The shannon limit was only ever "with X bandwidth and Y signal-noise ratio" Feb 08 14:31:01 And Z modem complexity. Feb 08 14:31:08 Nobody dug up my front yard to replace the 30 year old copper, I assure you. Feb 08 14:31:23 yeah but they dug out the copper behind your local station Feb 08 14:31:25 However, that copper does not go all the way to my house. Feb 08 14:31:26 and put in massive fibre Feb 08 14:31:42 It still has to go through my copper. Live with it. Feb 08 14:31:46 It goes to your local DSLAM, where it gets converted to digital. Feb 08 14:31:47 and they sure as hell replaced all CABLE cabling in my house. TWICE. Feb 08 14:31:56 Yes, it has to go through your copper. Feb 08 14:32:01 Up to the exchange. Feb 08 14:32:05 This is at most several miles. Feb 08 14:32:11 a few hundred meters in most places Feb 08 14:32:15 at most about 8km Feb 08 14:32:15 _all_ the wiring after that has been changed. Feb 08 14:32:25 at which point you will suffer severely limited bandwidth Feb 08 14:32:28 In my case actually around 9. Feb 08 14:32:37 63dB attenuation. Feb 08 14:32:54 Meh - it's better than dialup. Feb 08 14:32:57 You're purposely missing the point. The narrowest part of the pipe will always restrict the bandwith of a composite pipe. The fact of the matter is, it didn't. Feb 08 14:33:13 It was never the narrowest part of the pipe. Feb 08 14:33:25 The 3.4Khz bandwidth limit at the exchange was the narrow part. Feb 08 14:34:08 Even at the time of 2400 baud modems, there was _much_ _much_ faster coms going over relatively long distances without these filters. Feb 08 14:34:21 Over leased analog lines. Feb 08 14:34:23 I'm not interested in arguing, SpeedEvil. You're regressive by nature, it's that simple. I'm interested in overcoming any current restrictions, rather than declaring things to be impossible. Feb 08 14:35:28 yeah Feb 08 14:35:36 T1 was mostly copper right? Feb 08 14:36:04 there are fundamental limits, Morgreet Feb 08 14:36:17 the only question is, are our current approximation of those largely correct or not Feb 08 14:37:02 buz: limits are only there to be overcome. We do that no necessarily by a frontal attack, but often by finding an alternative approach. That's what makes engineering so much fun. Feb 08 14:37:15 The 'shannon limit' with copper cabling in telecoms with regards to modems was always largely the fact that the phone companies had a brick wall filter that simply stopped any frequencies over 3.4Khz. Feb 08 14:37:59 Because over that frequency the long-haul cables between exchanges would have too much crosstalk. Feb 08 14:38:19 This changed when things went digital in the exchanges - system X. Feb 08 14:38:20 Morgreet: yes, but you need to accept limits so you work on the right solution Feb 08 14:38:41 Which meant that the only real copper was to your local linecard. Feb 08 14:38:47 After that it was all digital. Feb 08 14:38:52 This made 56K possible. Feb 08 14:39:33 you dont go about doubting laws of thermodynamics do you? Feb 08 14:39:53 ADSL was made possible, because the linecard was then replaced by one with fewer limits - it can send and recieve over a much, much wider bandwidth than the 3.4Khz of the old ones. Feb 08 14:40:13 and adsl2 was more of the same Feb 08 14:40:31 robtaylor: accept limits as applying within a specific technology, yes, that's being realistic, and engineers are. The answer is almost always to extend the domain a little so that the limit in question no longer applies. That's what I meant by "moving the goalposts". Feb 08 14:40:37 now as for cable, there company actually replaced most cabling out there, at least in switzerland Feb 08 14:40:45 they needed backchannel and higher bandwidth cabling Feb 08 14:44:25 Does anyone know whether Leigh Honeywell or Paul Wouter are on the Phase 0 developer's list? Those were the two presenters in the CCC video on mobile phone encryption, and they mentioned the OpenMoko in a hopeful light. Would be great if they were on the project. Feb 08 14:45:21 http://wwwcip.cs.fau.de/23c3/official/video/23C3-1495-en-green_phone.m4v Feb 08 14:45:29 That video. Feb 08 14:46:43 really pushing the video :) Feb 08 14:46:47 lets see Feb 08 14:47:13 Eblis: wasn't my link, it was posted by LittleIdiot. It's very informative though, and good quality. Feb 08 14:47:24 watching it right now :D Feb 08 14:57:59 They mentioned the issue of separate SoC's handling the GSM section and the host software, and the embedded SoC being able to turn on the microphone independently of the Linux host SoC. Interesting issue. Feb 08 15:03:48 hey jack the ripper ... Feb 08 15:35:05 * noidd yawns Feb 08 15:35:13 * xkr47 hits noidd with a perl script Feb 08 15:35:29 => noidd is awake again \o/ Feb 08 15:35:59 Are you sure? Feb 08 15:36:04 It could just all be a dream. Feb 08 15:36:16 do you question my perl scripts ?-) Feb 08 15:37:41 I've not seen your perl scripts Feb 08 15:37:46 lets see'em Feb 08 15:52:16 http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tools/perl.png Feb 08 15:52:17 :D Feb 08 16:22:19 Interesting snippet from a Slashdot headline: "the Ministry of Education in Russia has decided that the school boards will no longer be purchasing any commercial software." Feb 08 16:24:47 Morgreet: unfortunately, this is wrong. He said that software will be selected after examining many factors, and only one factor is price. Feb 08 16:25:39 Well, it's much better than previous situation when everything was bought from M$ Feb 08 16:27:06 Indeed, and for all we know it was a stickup anyway. But Gates didn't do himself any favours. They probably planned it that way, but even so, he do himself any favours. Feb 08 16:27:13 stitchup Feb 08 16:27:24 Not stickup :-))) Feb 08 16:30:10 Whatever one might think of MS and BG, he's an amateur at intrigue and evil versus any politician. :P Feb 08 16:30:54 counter Feb 08 16:30:54 3 days 12:56:37 (3.539 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.539 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.539 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (173) Feb 08 16:31:07 /overclock counter Feb 08 16:55:30 will any of you be on the ccc camp this summer? ;) Feb 08 17:07:46 counter Feb 08 17:07:46 3 days 12:20:00 (3.514 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.514 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.514 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (174) Feb 08 17:09:15 .. if you can't count until next monday without a computer, you're a true nerd :) Feb 08 17:09:51 I'm sorry time is irrelevant for me. Feb 08 17:11:56 and my clock seems to be 12 hours off Feb 08 17:12:27 Time is a funny thing. Just ask any electron. Feb 08 17:13:16 hi all Feb 08 17:13:25 morning Feb 08 17:18:53 i need to call verizon and get out of my contract and switch to cingular so i can use OpenMoko Feb 08 17:19:50 Mortimus: can you do the text message charge thing? Feb 08 17:19:54 question if providers like to lock a phone for their service only how would that work when selling the openmoko since it is so open Feb 08 17:20:01 yes sir Feb 08 17:20:07 cool. Feb 08 17:20:22 they like to lock a phone *after* they subsidise it so you buy it from them and then have to stick with your contract. Feb 08 17:20:39 with openmoko, you're paying a non-subsidised price for the phone, so they don't have anything to protect. Feb 08 17:21:37 even at the mass market stage? Feb 08 17:22:37 Mortimus: providers can't lock a phone that you've bought yourself. They only lock phones that they sell at a below-cost price subsidized by the long-term contract. And in some countries they're not even allowed to do that. Feb 08 17:22:38 subsidising an open phone is like selling your soul to be free :) Feb 08 17:22:55 Of course it's not. Feb 08 17:23:13 Locking a phone to one provider, but still having a mostly open phone otherwise is quite reasonable. Feb 08 17:23:22 If they significantly subsidise it. Feb 08 17:23:47 :) Feb 08 17:24:20 I did not know that other countries it is illegal to subsidize a phone Feb 08 17:24:25 Morgreet: I found out that if I pay full MSRP to a provider around here I still get a locked phone Feb 08 17:24:46 leventhal: depends on the country. Feb 08 17:25:13 Yeah.. greatly pissed me off when I couldn't get Bell to unlock the phone I bought out of contract, full price Feb 08 17:25:19 We will also be available in a retail stores and selected carriers around the world. It's going to be interesting in the us because people do not want to pay 350 for a phone they like that their provider subsidizes it Feb 08 17:25:44 The provider may be willing to subsidise a locked phone on a phone contract, as they get call revenue, like they would with any other phone. No, they would not get a cut of MP3, or video downloads, ... but it could still attract some subsidy. Feb 08 17:25:51 What's more, in general they won't sell you an unlocked phone unless you ask for it to be unlocked. Needless to say, they try to keep you tied to their service. Feb 08 17:26:00 Also, I expect the $350 to possibly change. Feb 08 17:26:06 For P2 Feb 08 17:26:07 SpeedEvil: Why does the provider need a locked phone? Feb 08 17:26:21 So that you can only make calls over their service. Feb 08 17:26:21 SpeedEvil: they just make you sign a contract for a year and then they don't need it locked Feb 08 17:26:22 If they didn't there would be a lot less kids (18+) having cell phones Feb 08 17:26:46 SpeedEvil: Here contracts generally include enough free calls that you'd never go over anyway Feb 08 17:26:46 And so that once the contract is over, you have a little more than inertia to stop you switching. Feb 08 17:26:55 benJIman: in part justified recoupment of its cost over time, and in part greed once their outlay has been recouped. Feb 08 17:26:59 (the unlock fee) Feb 08 17:27:17 I heard that if you call cingular 90 days after contract they will give you the unlock code. Feb 08 17:27:31 SpeedEvil: noone just switches anyway, they get a new contract with a new free phone Feb 08 17:27:33 Subsidised phones can be a good or a bad deal depending on provider and phone and circumstances. Feb 08 17:27:47 It also greatly varies by market. Feb 08 17:27:51 Usually the same company offers a new phone, or they lose people Feb 08 17:27:55 in finland almost everybody has a phone and yet subsidising was legalized only ~one year ago Feb 08 17:28:06 including kids from age 5 and up Feb 08 17:28:16 Basically you pay off the phone over the period of the contract Feb 08 17:28:24 Yeah - the neo is a possible interesting case - as software upgrades are free to the provider. Feb 08 17:28:26 Largely. Feb 08 17:28:56 and the user would be able to do software updates on their own Feb 08 17:29:01 Yeah. Feb 08 17:29:08 well surely openmoko could still be sold with branded stuff if somebody wanted, with the option to take them out if you know how Feb 08 17:29:20 Though I want to be able to lock down phones that I buy, to give to dependants. Feb 08 17:29:31 also if there was wifi the phone could auto-update Feb 08 17:29:53 (hypothetical, no kids as yet) Feb 08 17:29:59 I hope the auto-update will use ssl certificates Feb 08 17:30:10 otherwise we'll have hostile wifi stations faking the openmoko update site :) Feb 08 17:30:14 anything can be done with enough programming knowledge Feb 08 17:30:25 in switzerland all subsized with contract phones are unlocked Feb 08 17:30:27 not an issue there Feb 08 17:30:42 and its the same for most of europe i believe Feb 08 17:30:55 Some phones in the UK come with glued-in-sims. Feb 08 17:31:01 * xkr47 becomes unsure what "locked" actually means Feb 08 17:31:02 in fact, my gf uses one of my nearly free with contract phones with another carrier Feb 08 17:31:08 Though AIUI, that's just '3' with their cheap PAYG 3G phones. Feb 08 17:31:11 im getting a locked krzr as an intermediate (but I could unlock it myself) Feb 08 17:31:16 for me locked = sim locked Feb 08 17:31:30 It's also possible to lock a phone to one network only. Feb 08 17:31:41 thats simlock yes Feb 08 17:31:43 Put any other providers SIM in and it just won't work. Feb 08 17:31:52 k Feb 08 17:31:59 done with prepay phones in most countries Feb 08 17:32:03 Put the same providers (different) SIM in and it works fine. Feb 08 17:32:29 providers even encouraged me once to get a prepay phone when mine broke down and my contract was still running Feb 08 17:33:27 that is the stupid logic Feb 08 17:33:32 why Feb 08 17:33:37 they make more money when i have a phone Feb 08 17:34:04 and doesnt really matter to them what sim i use in it now does it Feb 08 17:34:14 you had a contract they should be able to offer you something Feb 08 17:34:27 sure, if i sold my soul for another 12 months Feb 08 17:34:54 which i decidedly didnt like Feb 08 17:37:05 that is a tough predicament Feb 08 17:37:34 luckily there are more and more MVNO popping up Feb 08 17:37:40 i just wait for the flat gprs MVNO now Feb 08 17:37:52 i wonder since i had my phone only 9 months what they would like do with it. Feb 08 17:38:06 what is gprs MVNO Feb 08 17:39:44 mobile virtual network operator Feb 08 17:39:59 basically a network that resells another carrier Feb 08 17:40:08 btw, I inserted my "pay as you go" SIM card into my cingular phone and it failed. Feb 08 17:40:16 "This SIM card cannot be used in this phone" Feb 08 17:40:28 ghey Feb 08 17:40:31 I don't know if it is the SIM or the phone that is locked Feb 08 17:40:36 I'll find out in a week or so. Feb 08 17:40:44 is it from the same provider? Feb 08 17:40:48 Nope Feb 08 17:40:53 thats why Feb 08 17:40:57 never heard of locked sims Feb 08 17:41:03 that would be downright stupid Feb 08 17:41:23 the phone is locked to accept SIm's from only one provider Feb 08 17:42:04 In the UK, on 3 - you can't swap your 3G SIM into a non 3G phone - or the barr it. Feb 08 17:42:15 they barr Feb 08 17:42:27 as their profit comes largely from 3G services. Feb 08 17:43:05 * unknown_lamer never bothered to get a subsidized locked down phone Feb 08 17:43:31 t-mo us's top end phone is still lower end than my three year old nokia 7610 and all Feb 08 17:43:43 well, this SIM is pay as you go and the minute purchase mechanism is via the phone Feb 08 17:43:51 eww Feb 08 17:43:56 so it would make some sense fo tehm to do that too Feb 08 17:44:08 it should be done network side Feb 08 17:44:11 if they had any clue, they allow web refill Feb 08 17:44:40 The UK had problems with that - a while back. Feb 08 17:44:45 Cellnet 'U' phones were very chippable. Feb 08 17:45:03 As the minute tracking was on the phone. Feb 08 17:45:07 lol Feb 08 17:45:14 Lots of people got free calls. Feb 08 17:45:24 Witht he aid of a PIC. Feb 08 17:45:33 serves them right Feb 08 17:45:40 never trust equipment in the hand of the customers Feb 08 17:45:46 Heh Feb 08 17:45:51 I just use a callback Feb 08 17:48:13 up until a year and a half ago I was able to use my m2m minutes to call anyone by connecting to voice mail and using the "return this call" feature :-) Feb 08 17:48:52 that is a pretty sweet loophole Feb 08 17:50:20 Heh.. I'm lucky enough to have free incoming on my phone plan, and my employer operates a callback server Feb 08 17:50:45 So if I'm near the limit of my minutes I just use the callback server and call for free Feb 08 17:50:54 i need to boot into windows to back up my contacts :( Feb 08 17:50:57 there's still plans where you pay for incoming? unbelievable Feb 08 17:51:07 a callback server would be like a gateway Feb 08 17:51:10 buz: Yeah.. I know.. almost every plan in canada is that way. Feb 08 17:51:19 I only know of two that have free incoming Feb 08 17:51:40 nowadays I use like 15 minutes a month Feb 08 17:51:49 and 250-300M over gprs Feb 08 17:51:54 $20 for unlimited mmm Feb 08 17:52:03 Heh.. ~100 minutes and 40mb gprs here Feb 08 18:54:53 yeah, editing multiple bugs doesn't work Feb 08 20:20:20 http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadgetmobile/~3/88197948/ but it being broadcom i'd really doubt linux drivers... Feb 08 20:24:51 counters Feb 08 20:25:06 counter Feb 08 20:25:07 3 days 09:02:23 (3.377 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.377 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.377 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (175) Feb 08 20:25:10 ah Feb 08 20:25:18 1.337 coming soon :) Feb 08 20:25:46 ;) Feb 08 20:25:54 how can one surely know someone's a developer ? Feb 08 20:27:36 that's 3,377 beats in swatch internet time Feb 08 20:27:38 thresh - You can't. Feb 08 20:28:12 so, being a developer, i can order one ? Feb 08 20:28:50 no Feb 08 20:28:55 developers get them Feb 08 20:28:56 please read *ANYBODY* again Feb 08 20:28:59 :) Feb 08 20:29:08 you can order one in march Feb 08 20:30:08 Anybody can order one. Wether they use it as paper weight or for developing is up to them. Feb 08 20:30:32 well in march you should be able to use it as phone Feb 08 20:30:58 I hope so. :) Feb 08 20:31:00 paperweight might be in beta still then ;) Feb 08 20:31:01 it might occasionally not do what it is supposed to but in general, it should work for what i understand Feb 08 20:31:12 xkr47: lol Feb 08 20:32:40 why cant i find some cheap low power board with 4sata ports... Feb 08 20:32:45 and gigabit Feb 08 20:32:53 xkr47 - *lol* Feb 08 20:34:03 * SpeedEvil puts on a hard-suit, and hugs true. Feb 08 20:34:05 oops Feb 08 20:34:17 wrong channel? Feb 08 20:34:21 Indeed. Feb 08 20:34:29 now you scare me Feb 08 20:34:49 poor false got no hugs Feb 08 20:35:26 biI wonder, wether roaming will work in march. ;) Feb 08 20:35:38 ? Feb 08 20:35:50 why wouldnt it Feb 08 20:35:58 the gsm module should take care of that Feb 08 20:36:14 maybe he means something non-gsm related Feb 08 20:36:40 roaming contacts? Feb 08 20:36:52 * koen suspects phase 0 phones don't have any form of FCC/kema/EC certification Feb 08 20:37:04 yeah I was thinking of that Feb 08 20:37:16 doesn't that kind of certification take months? Feb 08 20:37:25 Yes, and funds. Feb 08 20:37:32 I hope the AT command set does not include any commands to adjust gsm sending power Feb 08 20:37:48 VEry unlikely. Feb 08 20:37:56 well.. after all they're *selling* those phones with windowze installed to china as well Feb 08 20:38:03 That'll likely all be on the closed side. Feb 08 20:38:15 China doesn't really need much approval though. Feb 08 20:38:18 I don't know when, but I'd certainly believe they will need to certify the phone soon Feb 08 20:38:23 And the approvals process is _much_ simpler. Feb 08 20:38:23 oh Feb 08 20:38:39 NAiL: guess why phase 2 is months away Feb 08 20:38:40 I.E. hand $many to appropriate official. Feb 08 20:38:50 "sure, it sends at 1kW, but it works great 100km out at sea when you are fishing!" Feb 08 20:39:18 buz - I meant choosing the provider for the roaming. Feb 08 20:39:37 well.. I don't think they have some unsafe gsm chip in there just to be swamped with fcc problems in the summer Feb 08 20:39:39 buz - Some phones can be switched from automatic choosing to manual, etc. Feb 08 20:40:13 xkr47: FWIW, gsm is limited to 30km, due to maximum RTT Feb 08 20:40:22 I was kidding :) Feb 08 20:40:39 is 30km typically 2W sending efficiency ? Feb 08 20:40:47 No. Feb 08 20:40:54 For 30Km, you'd need an antenna. Feb 08 20:41:05 An antenna pointed at the cell. Feb 08 20:41:13 Oh, there is socket for external antenna, right? Feb 08 20:41:18 Dunno. Feb 08 20:41:24 * xkr47 mounts a 20m antenna to the moko Feb 08 20:41:27 :) Feb 08 20:41:33 20m? Feb 08 20:41:35 *lol* Feb 08 20:41:41 20m dish, maybe. Feb 08 20:41:42 how many lambda is that? Feb 08 20:41:46 (though there would be no point) Feb 08 20:42:31 dish washer Feb 08 20:42:40 Senior Dish Washer Feb 08 20:42:53 (guy cleaning the immense dishes :) Feb 08 20:43:59 reminds me of the story how they discovered cosmic background noise Feb 08 20:44:11 "must be birdshit on the dish, lets clean it" Feb 08 20:44:32 2 days of cleaning later "it's still there, lets write a paper about it" Feb 08 20:45:22 papers like that either give nobel prizes or make you look like a complete idiot Feb 08 20:45:23 *lol* Feb 08 20:45:56 Okay, so I should write a paper on the hoping NMR-line ;o) Feb 08 20:46:10 was the discovered noise from the guy cleaning birdshit ?-) Feb 08 20:46:13 s/p/pp/ Feb 08 20:46:14 Elrond meant: Okay, so I should write a ppaper on the hoping NMR-line ;o) Feb 08 20:46:30 apt, botsnack Feb 08 20:46:30 thanks, Elrond Feb 08 21:43:23 counter Feb 08 21:43:23 3 days 07:44:06 (3.322 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.322 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.322 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (176) Feb 08 21:43:35 doh, I missed the 31.337 timestamp Feb 08 21:44:36 xkr47: best hand in your geek card then Feb 08 21:51:45 It's like waiting for Christmas when I was a child. Feb 08 21:52:35 :) Feb 08 22:01:24 hi all Feb 08 22:01:34 anyone recieved his sample already ? Feb 08 22:01:41 counter Feb 08 22:01:41 3 days 07:25:48 (3.310 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.310 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.310 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (177) Feb 08 22:01:47 rob *g* Feb 08 22:01:49 Prolly at least a week. Feb 08 22:02:36 oh so thats the day when they get shipped out ?? so it will be more like next week when they arive Feb 08 22:02:51 i thought the mail said the 4th is the shipping day Feb 08 22:03:38 rob no sunday the 11th Feb 08 22:03:57 with dhl at least to germany Feb 08 22:05:15 Hmm. 3 days does take it to the weekend. Feb 08 22:05:16 I hope the toll will make no stress Feb 08 22:06:00 The 4th is sunday. Feb 08 22:06:08 Do any carriers at all accept stuff on sunday? Feb 08 22:06:12 Oh - hang on. Feb 08 22:06:15 woglinde, they better dont otherwise i will go crazy Feb 08 22:06:20 It's shipping from .tw isn't it. Feb 08 22:06:24 thats what mickeyl asked too :) Feb 08 22:06:31 * SpeedEvil is unsure about that. Feb 08 22:06:32 speedevil yes Feb 08 22:06:37 from .tw Feb 08 22:06:44 I don't know how they regard sunday. Feb 08 22:06:49 is there a svn/cvs repository available w/ the openmoko platform? Feb 08 22:07:16 in german forum someone wrote the march stuff will be send form europe Feb 08 22:07:28 jiffy theire was a counter Feb 08 22:07:39 counter Feb 08 22:07:39 3 days 07:19:54 (3.305 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.305 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.305 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (178) Feb 08 22:07:51 countress Feb 08 22:07:51 hehe aeh yes Feb 08 22:08:03 i meant the website Feb 08 22:09:03 just out of curiosity, does anyone know why there is a wait for the source to be released? Feb 08 22:09:30 dont know Feb 08 22:09:48 I think they are working on it Feb 08 22:09:55 jiffyjeff: to keep the attraction high :} Feb 08 22:10:42 i am digging around looking for some information on the software platform... is this thing real, or vaporware? Feb 08 22:10:46 http://www.post.gov.tw/post/internet/u_english/aon_dtl.jsp?ID=1302&prsb_no=012100-6 says that at least some .tw post offices are open on a sunday. Feb 08 22:10:50 It's real. Feb 08 22:10:58 There is actual hardware out there. Feb 08 22:11:05 The people that have it are under NDA. Feb 08 22:11:08 jiffy its real Feb 08 22:11:27 Actual hardware will prolly hit lots of people ~50 in around a week. Feb 08 22:14:10 <[g2]> jiffyjeff my understanding is the SW will be OpenEmbedded based Feb 08 22:14:32 g2 hm its gtk based Feb 08 22:14:38 the buildsystem is oe Feb 08 22:14:48 <[g2]> woglinde nod Feb 08 22:15:19 <[g2]> woglinde isn't it gtk 2.4+ ? Feb 08 22:15:54 <[g2]> there was some mention about that a while ago... It's only a couple of days away Feb 08 22:16:30 * [g2] wonders about 2007-02-11 in which TZ ? Feb 08 22:16:40 .tw? Feb 08 22:16:48 <[g2]> UTC+11 ? UTC-12 ? Feb 08 22:17:03 are they going to release at 0:00? Feb 08 22:17:17 <[g2]> dunno Feb 08 22:17:27 seems unlikely Feb 08 22:18:10 23:59.59, HST. Feb 08 22:28:16 [g2], i bet it is later then 2.8 Feb 08 22:57:58 anyone here have the neo1973 in hand yet? Feb 08 22:58:46 The ones that do are probably not allowed to disclose anything anyway. Feb 08 22:59:22 yea, I didn't think about that, just wanna know overall impressions. Is it still available on 3/11? Feb 08 22:59:36 counter Feb 08 22:59:36 3 days 06:27:53 (3.269 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.269 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.269 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (179) Feb 08 22:59:58 No contradiction yet. Feb 08 23:00:20 cool Feb 08 23:00:54 will preorders be available before 3/11? Feb 08 23:01:01 Probably. Feb 08 23:01:05 thx Feb 08 23:01:10 That's why they call them preorders :) Feb 08 23:02:25 I guess I should think about getting a sim Feb 08 23:03:13 will I need a certain type of sim card? Feb 08 23:03:41 or got any recommendations? If you can't already tell, I'm kinda a phone newb Feb 08 23:04:04 Any sim will do, I guess. Feb 08 23:05:53 hi everyone Feb 08 23:05:57 Hi Feb 08 23:05:58 but don't some have more memory/storage than others, what's it up to now 256kb Feb 08 23:06:00 just saw the openmoko phone Feb 08 23:06:07 on the net Feb 08 23:06:09 WOW Feb 08 23:06:18 i am so excited Feb 08 23:06:41 so are we Feb 08 23:07:11 :) Feb 08 23:07:20 It's something else alright. Feb 08 23:07:20 so where do i start from here if i wanna know more about the phone, i've been reading on openmoko.com Feb 08 23:08:24 emacsen: well... you can try to get a bigger sim and copy a sim you get from your provider to it or something, but my experience is that sim cards aren't that interesting. Feb 08 23:09:13 julle_: if you like, you can go through the mailing lists. If you're done, you can sit here and wait, venting your frustrations about the deadline being so far away, like the rest of us ;) Feb 08 23:10:01 can I just buy a sim on ebay, call a provider and sign up for service? I'm in the US so this can be a pain Feb 08 23:10:23 SuN hehe okey, when have they said the deadline is supposed to be? Feb 08 23:10:41 5 years Feb 08 23:10:58 I'm not entirely up to date on the situation in the US, but I've never seen sims for sale which aren't already active with a subscription, apart from the useless ones. Feb 08 23:11:00 julle_: I hope you've read the links in the /topic before asking questions here ... Feb 08 23:11:01 counter Feb 08 23:11:02 3 days 06:16:28 (3.261 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.261 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.261 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (180) Feb 08 23:11:16 julle, have you seen the lame youtube interview video? Feb 08 23:11:27 emacsen: what I would do here is get a prepaid package, not sure if those are available in the US. Feb 08 23:12:15 I think they are, prolly a good idea Feb 08 23:13:07 To be honest I've never heard of anyone calling a provider asking to activate a custom sim, since a sim isn't worth a lot. Feb 08 23:13:19 It's the subscription/connection to the network that's important. Feb 08 23:13:33 It'd be interesting to try though :) Feb 08 23:13:39 i'm sure it would confuse the hell out of the call center Feb 08 23:14:06 I think you're correct, and I don't wanna talk to a call center rep Feb 08 23:14:30 just pay the $35 for a new sim with your subscription Feb 08 23:15:35 k Feb 08 23:16:25 If you're lucky, they'll include a phone. Feb 08 23:17:04 and not bind you to a 3-year contract Feb 08 23:19:29 any thoughts on skype or voip with this? maybe just whilst at home? Feb 08 23:19:51 people have been discussing the relative merits of voip over gprs Feb 08 23:19:51 Skype - no. Feb 08 23:19:57 Way too much bandwidth. Feb 08 23:20:08 Not to mention no binary for the platform. Feb 08 23:20:20 voip - it might sort-of work over GPRS. Feb 08 23:20:31 Especially if you are in a little used portion of the network. Feb 08 23:20:42 Or are willing to go to push to talk mode, where latancy isn't so important. Feb 08 23:21:02 In some places, it'll probably work well. Feb 08 23:21:08 In others practically not at all. Feb 08 23:21:33 i'm surprised that 1500ms latency is even tenable Feb 08 23:21:55 It's not hopelessly useless for browsing. Feb 08 23:22:06 Considering most pages'll take seconds to download anyway. Feb 08 23:22:10 many seconds Feb 08 23:22:45 Hmm. Feb 08 23:22:51 voice browsing? Feb 08 23:23:02 * SpeedEvil ponders if it could be argued that the first CDMA call was made in the 1940s. Feb 08 23:23:23 i know people that do SIP over transatlantic links and it's not supposed to be all that good Feb 08 23:23:25 Prolly not - though the encryption for the UK-US link was similar. Feb 08 23:23:29 emulsion no sry a little late in the conversation, but i have not seen the lame interview in youtube. please hook me up with a link Feb 08 23:24:05 just search youtube for openmoko Feb 08 23:24:47 http://youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg Feb 08 23:28:08 will there a problem developing "multi-touch" for the openmoko? (legal reasons) Feb 08 23:28:42 I can't imagine there would be, just do it. Feb 08 23:28:45 Not in Europe :) Feb 08 23:29:04 ha... does this thing run X? Feb 08 23:29:12 I think so. Feb 08 23:29:25 jiffyjeff, sort of Feb 08 23:29:44 actually it runs a subset of the library`s Feb 08 23:29:59 okay -- with gtk support I presume Feb 08 23:31:23 Who is managing the openmoko project right now? Feb 08 23:32:53 gtk 2.6.10 Feb 08 23:33:50 more on software support in dev Feb 08 23:33:54 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001586.html Feb 08 23:36:01 thank you emulsion -- can you get met set up w/ an account on the wiki? i have some thoughts on implementing "multi-touch" (if it's not already documented) Feb 08 23:39:07 don't know about the wiki account. I'm on the mailing list here http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ Feb 08 23:39:37 closest thing to a wiki that I know here Feb 08 23:39:40 http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko Feb 08 23:40:17 jiffyjeff, whats ur idea ? Feb 08 23:43:07 what do people think openmoko's chances of success are, in terms of becomming a mass market device? i'd love it to succeed, but the decks seemed stacked against it, considering how much providers like to lock phones down with there own crap software... Feb 08 23:46:40 your guess is as good as mine, lots will be software, ease of use dependent for mass market, also price will be a factor, I for one have no problem forking over the $350 for an upgradable phone. I like to think it'll stick, at a minimum I think it will survive and grow. Feb 08 23:46:49 rob: just some thoughts on implementing the "multitouch" algorithms efficiently -- i.e. using the manhatten/taxicab distance calculations rather than the standard linear formula (which requires factoring). I've written a customized mouse device driver in OSX, so I've worked with the acceleration curves, etc. Feb 08 23:48:48 surviving and growing would at least make me happy - i wonder what sort of volumes FIC anticipates for 1973, it would seem volumes would have a pretty large impact on costs... Feb 08 23:59:32 counter Feb 08 23:59:32 3 days 05:27:57 (3.228 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.228 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.228 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (181) Feb 09 00:06:38 nice Feb 09 00:36:28 * spikebik1 pings jetpeach Feb 09 00:36:35 oh heh, is timriker a ghost? Feb 09 00:44:18 huh? wha? Feb 09 00:44:48 oh. net issues. I'm off anyway... Feb 09 02:16:23 <[g2]> counter Feb 09 02:16:24 3 days 03:11:05 (3.133 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.133 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.133 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (182) Feb 09 02:47:37 3 days!!! woohoo Feb 09 02:47:49 why are you on the big list? Feb 09 02:47:52 or little list Feb 09 02:48:29 nope, more excited about the source though Feb 09 02:48:41 ah Feb 09 02:49:18 i'm weird Feb 09 02:50:40 Zer0Her0: actually, being excited about the source is the true spirit of OpenMoko, since OpenMoko is the software, not the hardware. Feb 09 02:51:41 you can bet that the software will be ported to other already-available hardware very soon after it's release. Feb 09 02:52:15 yep **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Feb 09 03:00:00 2007