**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 10 02:59:57 2007 Feb 10 03:39:03 Woa, Windows Mobile 6 has automatic update support. Feb 10 03:39:12 Service providers' wet dream! Feb 10 03:39:32 and FBI/NSA too ;-) Feb 10 03:40:04 High five! :D Feb 10 03:40:19 Indeed. Feb 10 03:40:41 'Click to download a 129Mb update' Feb 10 03:40:53 hmm.. that brings me to one thought: we should not trust service providers NAT, but use our own firewall Feb 10 03:41:14 Actually, I'm watching a set of screenshots, the very first update is > 6000KB. Feb 10 03:41:24 That's quite hefty on a service plan. Feb 10 03:41:49 Data plan even. Feb 10 03:41:59 otherwise they might just turn it off enough for FBI to crack into our phone (in case you haven't kept up to date) Feb 10 03:42:36 Woa, if this is really Windows Mobile... it's really miles behind the competition. Feb 10 03:43:36 This looks like what Motorola has produced in the nineties, only in color. Feb 10 05:27:20 counter Feb 10 05:27:21 2 days 00:00:00 (2.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (198) Feb 10 05:30:40 * rwhitby just fixed the upstream 2.6.20 FIS directory regression which was stopping MokoSlug from booting the 2.6.20 kernel. Feb 10 08:01:25 gug Feb 10 09:40:33 http://www.ddj.com/dept/opensource/197004438?cid=RSSfeed_DDJ_All Feb 10 09:50:32 old news Feb 10 09:52:54 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-February/000286.html Feb 10 09:53:05 Eblis: yeah, that was yet another Slashdot dupe Feb 10 09:54:26 They must be totally fried out of their skulls on coke in the Slashdot offices. Just totally incomprehensible. Feb 10 09:55:56 koen: interesting. I've not played with pixops, but optimization is fun. Feb 10 09:56:43 Opened by Phil Blundell (reporter, points: 5) Feb 10 09:56:44 2002-08-13 09:50 UTC [reply] Feb 10 09:56:53 over 4 and a half years old Feb 10 09:59:41 counter Feb 10 09:59:41 a day 19:27:38 (1.811 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.811 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.811 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (199) Feb 10 10:00:12 heh Feb 10 10:00:14 "Changes submitted for bug 90621 Feb 10 10:00:14 Email sent to: federico@ximian.com, xan@gnome.org, carlosg@gnome.org, leio@gentoo.org, kmaraas@gnome.org, gtk-bugs@gtk.org, otaylor@redhat.com, mclasen@redhat.com, behdad@gnome.org, billy.biggs@gmail.com, pb@nexus.co.uk, cloos@jhcloos.com, timj-lists@gtk.org, sandmann@daimi.au.dk, bzbot@bkor.dhs.org " Feb 10 10:00:31 seems gnome bugzilla spams a lot of people Feb 10 10:08:27 Heh, 4.5 years old bug Feb 10 10:09:04 see the bottom part of http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/integer-pixel-operations-for-gtk Feb 10 10:10:07 I almost sense a bit of bitterness there.. Feb 10 10:10:09 ;) Feb 10 10:10:15 you do? Feb 10 10:10:20 Never! Feb 10 10:10:21 I have no idea why ;) Feb 10 10:10:24 Sad but true though.. Feb 10 10:11:04 hrmph. OT question: who still makes pci-x motherboard other than Tyan and Supermicro? need to replace an old dead one Feb 10 10:12:06 Not really what you asked, but Dell servers still have PCI-X. I'm running a 2800 with 4 slots. Feb 10 10:13:01 pci-x, is that the renamed pci-64? Feb 10 10:13:47 PCI-64 wasn't really a proper standard, I believe. But essentially, yes. Feb 10 10:13:47 Morgreet: ok, so I could try finding a 2nd-hand one and use that instead... dare I ask about price? Feb 10 10:14:03 Stephmw: cheap Feb 10 10:16:25 Morgreet: got one spare? :) Feb 10 10:18:20 Stephmw: hehe, nah, mine's working fine as an audio and file server. Putting in a graphics card was 100% required though. The built-in V9000 ATI chip generates bus errors with X11, although that's par for the course with ATI in my experience. Feb 10 10:18:55 Morgreet: bah :) now I have to see if I can source one in London Feb 10 10:19:37 I hope ATI's crapness doesn't take AMD down, would be a big pity. Feb 10 10:20:29 robtaylor, xkr47: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/foms-lca-recap.html Feb 10 10:24:36 koen: that FOMS article brings to mind the comment earlier about stuff only getting into gnome rapidly if it comes form RedHat. Well that's happening in the opposite direction with Linux audio: RH's Ingo Molnar has been trying to get his full realtime patches into the kernel for some 3 years now, and it's still only partial in 2.6.20. Feb 10 10:24:52 So unfortunately there are priesthoods everywhere in FOSS. Feb 10 10:25:19 yep Feb 10 10:25:43 but since discovering OE I don't care a lot about getting patches in mainline anymore Feb 10 10:25:54 OE makes it so easy to apply a shitload of patches Feb 10 10:26:11 Morgreet - Ohhh yeahhh... Feb 10 10:26:39 And Gentoo as well, although I haven't actually done it myself. But yes, patches are applied automatically as part of the emerge process. Feb 10 10:26:55 Hi El :-) Feb 10 10:27:21 Patches have to be kept up to date... this somtimes warrants getting them in upstream. Feb 10 10:27:40 But "priesthoods" is a good word, yes. Feb 10 10:27:59 Oh, it always warrants it, yes. The problem is trying to get them accepted :-( Feb 10 10:28:14 Morgreet - Right. :-( Feb 10 10:28:59 Well I said "priesthoods" on purpose, because supposedly we are not using a Cathedral paradigm but a Bazaar. But sadly, it's a Bazaar full of cliques. Feb 10 10:29:27 Right, right. Feb 10 10:30:26 Let's hope it's not so on OM. The openness needs to extend to contributions too. Feb 10 10:30:30 Morgreet: do pci-x and pci-e have the same socket? http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=152791 seems to imply this Feb 10 10:30:38 Stephmw: gosh no Feb 10 10:30:43 Totally different Feb 10 10:31:29 weird... I wonder where supermicro are hiding it.. http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/P4/e7221/p8sci.cfm Feb 10 10:34:07 PCI-X looks like a longer version of PCI, big chuncky connectors, with two different blocked locations (plastic pin) depending on whether it's a 5V or 3.3V slot. PCIe is dinkier connector, and short. (Only as long as number of lanes, 16-lane for graphics is about same length as PCI) Feb 10 10:34:56 Servers never have 16-lane PCIe though (why is a total mystery to me, marketting I guess), just 1, 2, 4, and 8-lane. Feb 10 10:35:04 ahh Feb 10 10:35:40 ok, I see how they've got that arranged on that board Feb 10 10:35:50 Which means that PCIe graphics cards for servers are extremely rare, since 99.9999% are 16-lane. The only one I've found is Matrox G550, which is 1-lane PCIe. Feb 10 10:36:16 short=pcie, long=pci-x+pci... they don't mention the pci-x/pci slots are shared :) Feb 10 10:37:20 Actually a nice card the G550, open sources drivers, and fanless. Slow compared to ATI/nVidia of course, as not GPU, just fixed pipeline. Feb 10 10:38:11 one thing I remember from the various 1U servers I've seen is that noise reduction was never a factor... boy are those babies loud Feb 10 10:39:26 Not just the 1U's ... :-( Dell 2800 is a monster with 8 fans, dual redundancy on most of them. In summer, it sounds like a jumbo jet. Feb 10 10:40:51 hehe... the university department I used to admin bought dell servers. ;) Yes, they are loud. ;) Feb 10 10:41:01 dell desktops are quiet. :-) Feb 10 10:41:07 In fact, the 2800 is dual redundant everything ... fans, power supplies, controllers, CPUs. Very industrial. Feb 10 10:41:22 Weee. Feb 10 10:41:32 What does such a biest cost (new)? Feb 10 10:41:53 Cheap, lol. I was very surprised. Feb 10 10:42:36 Incredible amount of steel for the price (4U, no way can a person who isn't Arnie lift this thing). Feb 10 10:42:58 Needs a very deep rack too. Feb 10 10:44:02 Ahh. Feb 10 10:44:12 What is cheap in dollars? ;o) Feb 10 10:44:19 (or euro) Feb 10 10:45:09 It's 3 years old now, but cost about a grand base GBP, and that was dual Xeon + 2G ram. Feb 10 10:46:04 Current model is very similar though, I looked a couple of months ago. Probably called 2850 or something like that Feb 10 10:46:39 Ahh. Feb 10 10:46:54 Doesn't sound like soemthing for at home anyway. ;) Feb 10 10:49:20 Oh, looks like that range is being discontinued Feb 10 10:49:52 They seem to be changing to Core Duo, which makes sense. But double the price. Feb 10 10:50:40 Yeah, those servers are not really for the home, unless you have a computer room with good sound insulation. Feb 10 10:51:02 coreduo or core2duo? Feb 10 10:51:16 They only spin their fans as fast as necessary, but even so, not really for home. Feb 10 10:53:32 hrw: actually, no, they don't seem to be Core Duo at all, but Xeon Dual Core. This is getting confusing. Feb 10 10:54:16 Morgreet: can I keep bouncing ideas off you, or have I gone a wee bit too OT? Feb 10 10:55:25 Stephmw: lol, we've got nothing better to do here for another 1.8 days .... :P Fire away, I'm happy to act as bouncy wall :P Feb 10 10:55:54 true enough :) Feb 10 10:56:12 * Morgreet makes tea Feb 10 10:56:24 that connector at the bottom looks like pci-x, http://www.etb-tech.com/uploads/PE2450MB1.jpg Feb 10 10:57:28 Back, looking Feb 10 10:58:12 Well it's certainly not PCIe Feb 10 10:58:29 Bad picture though Feb 10 10:58:43 that's one downside with these damn servers... no detailed specs on the internals :( Feb 10 11:00:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral_Component_Interconnect Feb 10 11:00:45 so, I was away for a while, has there been talk of the gpephone project? any possible synergy? Feb 10 11:00:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express Feb 10 11:01:01 I had a comparative graphic of the connectors that was better. Feb 10 11:01:33 mjr: hasn't been mentioned, although Slashdot has had a duped article about GPE today Feb 10 11:01:56 Zonk chose his name well. Feb 10 11:02:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PCIExpress.jpg is good Feb 10 11:03:13 Morgreet, well, I didn't notice it was a dupe ;) Feb 10 11:04:45 * koen disagrees Feb 10 11:04:51 it already has been mentioned Feb 10 11:08:24 Stephmw: http://tomshardware.co.uk/2004/03/01/sneak_preview/page12.html Feb 10 11:10:42 And 2 pages before that one for PCIe .... http://tomshardware.co.uk/2004/03/01/sneak_preview/page10.html Feb 10 11:11:37 hmm, ok, so that poor photo we saw earlier was 64-bit, 3.3v Feb 10 11:11:41 (pci-x) Feb 10 11:11:50 Looked like it yes. Feb 10 11:12:21 hmm, 40 quid, including cpus Feb 10 11:12:30 lol Feb 10 11:12:44 not a massive gamble ;) Feb 10 11:12:57 10 available too ;) Feb 10 11:13:02 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Dell-PowerEdge-2450-Dual-CPU-Motherboard-4563T-35YXT_W0QQitemZ300079085831QQihZ020QQcategoryZ1484QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting Feb 10 11:14:12 Very slow though Feb 10 11:15:04 for a NAS? Feb 10 11:15:49 Hey, you know you might have a problem mounting that thing. Feb 10 11:16:11 let me guess.. different mountings/backplates? Feb 10 11:16:45 Yeah, Dell is pretty non-standard mountings for everything. Feb 10 11:18:20 For a reason, I guess, since their machines tend to be easy-install. Eg. the 2800 is a zero-tools chassis. Feb 10 11:19:08 no time on the Dell production line for turning screws. Feb 10 11:19:16 Yeah Feb 10 11:20:35 But of course, that ties you to them, which is bad. And it's terminal in the long term, once they've abandoned a particular chassis. Feb 10 11:21:35 Commodity standards get abandoned too, but much more slowly. Feb 10 11:22:28 I'm continually being torn between those two considerations pulling in opposite directions. Feb 10 11:23:12 For 1U, there doesn't seem to be a choice. You have to go proprietary. Feb 10 11:24:36 looking at yell.com, it feels like online shops have spelled the end of cheap, high-street component dealers :( Feb 10 11:26:36 Yep. In the UK there's only Maplin left really, and a small OEM corner of some PC World stores, although that barely qualifies. Feb 10 11:26:56 Maplin charge a fortune. Feb 10 11:27:04 and never actually have anything. Feb 10 11:27:29 right Feb 10 11:28:17 Morgreet: this is your beastie, right? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Dell-Poweredge-2800-Dual-xeons-2x3-2ghz-SCSI-Drives_W0QQitemZ160081965765QQihZ006QQcategoryZ1484QQcmdZViewItem Feb 10 11:28:19 BTW any mounting problems can be solved with duct tape Feb 10 11:28:23 benJIman: you have to do a Store Check, and go to the nearest one with what you want. It's true, your local will carry only a small selection, but not surprised really. Feb 10 11:28:38 At least there are tons of Maplins around. Feb 10 11:28:45 Morgreet: We have a HUGE one and it still never has anything I ever want Feb 10 11:28:58 And they charge 12 month old prices for components Feb 10 11:29:23 Speaking of which I'm just off to try and find a computer store with something. Feb 10 11:29:28 Stephmw: ebay isn't being cooperative from here atm ... Feb 10 11:30:24 Stephmw: but yeah, judging from the URL, that's the one. Feb 10 11:31:02 They've got the picture reversed left-right. Feb 10 11:32:22 That's a steal for 150 quid. But frankly, you don't want one of those in your home. Feb 10 11:33:13 I was thinking basement ;-) Feb 10 11:33:23 The graphics make it seem smaller than it is. Feb 10 11:33:50 150 quid delivery, I can fill in the blanks ;) Feb 10 11:34:27 I see you're being tempted. Well, don't say that I didn't warn you that it's a monster. :-) Feb 10 11:34:44 And I mean it. Feb 10 11:35:20 I'm still looking for a vanilla atx mobo with pci-x ;) Feb 10 11:35:30 a server box is my last resort Feb 10 11:36:09 Hell of a lot for your money though. Beware future costs though: 8 slots of U320 is fantastic ... until you consider the cost of drives versus SATA. Feb 10 11:36:47 well, I already have a sata2 raid array, so those features are excessive :( Feb 10 11:37:16 I have to say, this box is excessive in all respects, lol. Feb 10 11:39:31 The postage costs actually tell you something about that box ... ;-) Feb 10 11:39:37 yah Feb 10 11:39:48 ok... found a mobo for atx cases, cpu-less though Feb 10 11:39:58 It came on an industrial pallet. Feb 10 11:40:50 no worries, I can lift those with my little finger Feb 10 11:40:58 Hehe Feb 10 11:43:20 Well I'm trying to buy a 1U Sun Fire X2100 M2. Sadly Sun are trying their darndest to not take my money. If I had Sun shares, that would worry me. Feb 10 11:44:13 aren't SAS and SATA sort of compatible these days? Feb 10 11:45:05 SAS the SCSI thing? Feb 10 11:45:36 Didn't know serial SCSI was in the wild yet, though haven't been looking. Feb 10 11:46:06 Apart from FC of course, I meant copper. Feb 10 11:46:58 * koen looks at the stack of SCSI-2 disks Feb 10 11:47:06 I think I'm behind a few generations Feb 10 11:49:14 Hehe, I dug out a SCSI-1 machine from the box room the other day --- you know, the Centronics-type connectors ;-) Feb 10 11:50:28 yes Feb 10 11:51:50 I still have a controller card for those somewhere... no boot bios though :( Feb 10 11:52:07 Funnily enough, I've never had an IDE hard disk in any machine since the 386 came out. Started with Adaptec as soon as they came into existence, and it's been SCSI all the way. Only now with this Sun Fire that Sun seem not to want to sell me, that'll be my first ATA drive, SATA in this case. Feb 10 11:53:06 Oh, I have a PATA drive in a USB enclosure for offline backup, but that doesn't count, not in a machine. Feb 10 11:56:54 I wonder when the first nanoscale storage will emerge. Don't need full MNT for that, so shouldn't be long. Feb 10 12:00:35 Stephmw: http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/crepro/products/gseries/g550pcie.php Feb 10 12:00:59 (In case you end up with a server card with fewer than 16 lanes of PCIe. Feb 10 12:01:29 They also do a low-profile version of same card. Feb 10 12:01:35 ;) Feb 10 12:01:42 * Stephmw bookmarks Feb 10 12:01:52 Modern hard disks use nanoscale stuff in the coating of the platters. Feb 10 12:02:06 "world's first PCI Express graphics card with open-source display drivers for Linux and other Unix-like operating systems" Feb 10 12:02:22 SpeedEvil: and the heads too Feb 10 12:02:28 yeah. Feb 10 12:02:33 Not to mention the chips. Feb 10 12:04:58 Come on core team, it's time for a few more accidental leaks .... :P Feb 10 12:06:50 I wonder if FIC is ready for Slashdot ... hope they're not running on a Slug ;-) Feb 10 12:06:57 Or on a Neo ;+-) Feb 10 12:09:03 openmosix with 100k neos :) Feb 10 12:09:05 Hehehehehe Feb 10 12:10:22 Well since 1 Neo can trivially handle 1 HTTP session, that would probably work if the load balancer can cope :P Feb 10 12:16:28 It might tax the GSM network it was connected to :) Feb 10 12:17:12 The other meaning of "tax" might become relevant too :-( Feb 10 12:17:34 usbnet to the rescue Feb 10 12:17:49 but I think one bus can only handle 127 neos, so you need quite a few Feb 10 12:17:56 Morgreet: even slower... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ASUS-A7M266-DUAL-PROCESSOR-MOTHER-BOARD-WITH-CPU-MINT_W0QQitemZ290079451440QQihZ019QQcategoryZ31496QQcmdZViewItem Feb 10 12:18:51 I've not looked into usbnet. Can it be used more than just point-to-point? Feb 10 12:19:18 cool, the pixops awareness effort has some results Feb 10 12:20:00 Stephmw: oh, two PCI-X? And cheap Feb 10 12:20:13 Morgreet: only 66MHz, but at that price.. Feb 10 12:20:38 Nothing lost at that price. Feb 10 12:23:13 With gigabit ether integrated on so many modern boards these days, usbnet seems destined for old equipment only. Feb 10 12:23:56 portable stuff too Feb 10 12:24:42 all we need now are slimline ethernet connectors Feb 10 12:24:46 If only USB had a common 'high power' mode, then it'd bacome an easy solution to plugging in laptops Feb 10 12:25:41 50 ohm slimline connectors are widely available. Back to 10base2! Feb 10 12:25:52 Eeeek Feb 10 12:27:57 haha Feb 10 12:29:44 We actually need 10gig ether now, to encapsulate HDTV at the top end comfortably ... it's just slightly too fast for 1gig. Feb 10 12:30:11 By a factor or about 2-3. Feb 10 12:30:15 of* Feb 10 12:30:54 Alternatively .... some decent compression. Feb 10 12:32:48 I thought a problem with 10gig was power consumption? Feb 10 12:33:18 I didn't know that. Feb 10 12:33:33 lemme see if I can find the article Feb 10 12:33:39 Cheers Feb 10 12:36:01 increased powerconsumption with increased bandwidth? Feb 10 12:36:07 who would have thought?!?!? Feb 10 12:36:17 fucking snipers. Feb 10 12:36:21 lost the auction Feb 10 12:36:28 :-( Feb 10 12:37:14 25W for a 10gig nic Feb 10 12:37:34 koen: yeah, increase expected, but not to the extent of causing problems. Feb 10 12:37:46 buz: OK, that's a problem. Feb 10 12:38:00 yah, can't find the article, read it at work :( Feb 10 12:38:06 k Feb 10 12:38:54 murphy must live inside my scanner Feb 10 12:39:00 whenever i close the lid, the paper moves Feb 10 12:39:01 counter Feb 10 12:39:02 a day 16:48:17 (1.700 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.700 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.700 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (200) Feb 10 12:41:07 can we have milliseconds included ?--D Feb 10 12:41:10 * xkr47 is just kidding Feb 10 12:41:22 * xkr47 hopes mickey|zzZZzz gets some sleep for real Feb 10 12:41:28 and not just apparently :) Feb 10 12:41:49 Bah, only humans need sleep ;-) Feb 10 12:41:54 Don't close the lid? Feb 10 12:43:08 * SpeedEvil pass Stephmw esniper.sourceforge.org Feb 10 12:44:50 * Stephmw takes a look Feb 10 12:44:53 Can anyone think of a Linux firewall distro with built-in load balancer? Feb 10 12:45:25 do you mean QoS or link equalizer ? Feb 10 12:45:55 xkr47: load equalizer, either just session counted or with seever feedback. Feb 10 12:45:58 or do you mean like a machine in front of two servers ? Feb 10 12:46:13 xkr47: yeah, multiple back ends Feb 10 12:46:30 ok.. well I know there's some userspace software that you can pretty much install in any distro I think Feb 10 12:46:42 maybe there are some preconfigured distros as well, dunno Feb 10 12:47:34 xkr47: indeed, quite a few, and I could do it longhand with Gentoo as well. But wanted to just splurge a whole image into a Xen firewall domU. Feb 10 12:47:45 http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3410/gentoomi2.jpg Feb 10 12:47:51 Morgreet ^^ Feb 10 12:47:58 (I run gentoo as well :) Feb 10 12:48:08 Morgreet, right.. Feb 10 12:48:37 Hehe, funny caption Feb 10 12:49:07 oots Feb 10 12:49:35 xkr47: aye, Gentoo's nice. I've run many distros for years, but Gentoo seems to be the most flexible. Feb 10 12:50:28 And BSDs and other stuff a well. Pretty agnostic, they're just tools. Feb 10 12:51:03 If Sun ever get their act together and I get that Sun Fire, I'll run OpenSolaris as well. Feb 10 12:52:08 SpeedEvil: cheers, will keep it in mind for the next ones Feb 10 13:54:29 about 9.5h to UTC 00:00:00 Feb 10 13:54:29 counter Feb 10 13:54:29 a day 15:32:49 (1.648 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.648 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.648 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (201) Feb 10 14:04:21 * Morgreet taps fingers impatiently Feb 10 14:05:09 What was it we were waiting for again? Feb 10 14:05:15 Oh yeah, software. Feb 10 14:05:36 Mp it wasn't, it was the end to unanswered questions. :-) Feb 10 14:05:44 s/Mp/No/ Feb 10 14:05:44 Morgreet meant: No it wasn't, it was the end to unanswered questions. :-) Feb 10 14:06:44 Actually, an end to the questions will take a few more days, until peeps receive their Neos. Feb 10 14:10:54 apt: ~man ... sent to the sender by /message would be handy Feb 10 14:13:14 Think I'll try hooking dasher into IRC. Feb 10 14:14:55 Hmm. Interesting. Response on mailing list from Sean saying 'Yes, P1 will continue to be available, even if we run out, maybe with delays'. Feb 10 14:15:15 Dasher is interesting. I've got up to 60WPM with it. Feb 10 14:15:35 Admittedly, that's just pulling the mouse all the way to the right, and it producing sort-of-sentances :) Feb 10 14:17:21 What is P1? Feb 10 14:19:26 http://www.ddj.com/dept/opensource/197004438?cid=RSSfeed_DDJ_All <- are they f'in' blind? Feb 10 14:20:52 They have gained some media coverage. Feb 10 14:50:36 Hm, judging from the screenshots, GPEphone could be interesting. As far as I can see it takes a more traditional approach, and it's always good to have choice. Feb 10 14:51:37 SuN - url for screenshots? Feb 10 14:51:51 I'm interested too. Feb 10 14:51:51 http://gpephone.linuxtogo.org/screenshots/index.html Feb 10 14:52:16 Thanks! Feb 10 14:54:10 On what phone is this supposed to run? Feb 10 14:54:47 Any, I guess. But it seems to be aimed at something with a physical numeric keypad. Feb 10 14:55:35 Right. Feb 10 14:55:39 P1 is phase 1, which is the phones that will be on sale in around a month, for $350 Feb 10 14:56:33 So in other words, they will carry on being available, if you don't order immediately. Feb 10 14:56:40 GPE seems to be just the apps layer, so should run easily on Neo/OM. Feb 10 14:57:02 It has more or less the same structure. Feb 10 14:57:23 Specialized wm on an X11 layer, with GTK apps and widgets. Feb 10 14:58:31 SpeedEvil - Ahh, thanks for explaining. Feb 10 14:58:48 Are there any infos on pricing in P2 available yet? Feb 10 14:58:54 Nope. Feb 10 14:59:05 I'd expect it to be 'whatever the market will bear'. Feb 10 14:59:33 Btw, does anyone know whether the GSM module can be totally powered off in the Neo, 100% not there, while everything else remains operational? Feb 10 14:59:34 Though the hints on new features to be announced over the next couple of months for P2 are interesting. Feb 10 14:59:58 I'd imagine you can easily suspend it with an AT command. Feb 10 15:00:06 Right. Feb 10 15:00:17 Morgreet, I've seen mentions that you can put it in off-line mode. Dunon if the chip is then 100% not there, but should suffice... Feb 10 15:00:21 SpeedEvil: I don't mean suspend. I mean off, and no power taken. Feb 10 15:00:21 And it is easy to tell if it's emitting, when it says it's off. Feb 10 15:00:36 mjr: cheers Feb 10 15:00:38 I think, someone said, that they need (FIC) power-gsm-off for flight mode. Feb 10 15:00:49 gpephone is a nice idea, but how's that supposed to take off without any hardware? Feb 10 15:01:04 neo would be about the only real phone to run it Feb 10 15:01:08 Elrond: indeed. I want the RF to be completely not there at all, not merely not transmitting. Feb 10 15:01:18 Why? Feb 10 15:01:27 a) saving power. Feb 10 15:01:34 b) Not being trackable. :) Feb 10 15:01:45 ebecause I'm not entering a hospital with it turned on. Just me, I've got this funny thing about not killing people. Feb 10 15:01:49 Saving power, I can see - though it's going to be vanishingly small if you've got the display or CPU on. Feb 10 15:02:05 If the transmitter is not operating, it's not emitting anything worth talking of. Feb 10 15:02:15 Certainly nothing beyond what the CPU/LCD will. Feb 10 15:02:22 c) See Morgreet's thing about killing people. :) Feb 10 15:02:54 Also - recent tests in the UK by the medicines control agency (body that does this sort of thing) has found no case of medical stuff being harmed by GSM. Feb 10 15:03:15 SpeedEvil: no no, you misunderstand --- interfering with medical equipment Feb 10 15:03:20 Some get the display messed up with an operating phone next to them till you turn it off. Feb 10 15:03:24 No, No, I diddn't. Feb 10 15:03:52 If the transmitter is off, it's off. The reciever being on does not cause it to transmit - or the GSM module being in suspend. Feb 10 15:04:30 I would imagine that suspend'll turn it all off anyway - the GSM reciever alone can't sync to a cell. Feb 10 15:04:48 And can't do anything interesting like recieving calls. Feb 10 15:05:14 There is a difference between a transmitter off and simple not transmitting. The receiver doesn't bother me. It's the Tx PA that I want to be off. Feb 10 15:06:27 Sean saying "yes" for "airplane mode" on the list: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000358.html Feb 10 15:06:32 There is no difference in emitted power with modern phones. If the PA is not driven, it does not output RF. However, the PA in most cases uses a fair amount of power even static, so it will only be turned on when the phone needs to transmit. Feb 10 15:06:39 Morgreet - If you're crazy on reading specs, there are AT-commnd-specs for other gsm modules out there. ;o) That _might_ give an idea, if this sort of thing is possible. Feb 10 15:06:43 Let's wait and see what's available at the AT command. Feb 10 15:06:52 the quote talks about receivers but the meaning should be clear enough Feb 10 15:07:22 It will certainly be able to be switched into 'suspend' mode of some sort, where it doesn't ever use the radio. Feb 10 15:08:40 (I've been reading IC vendor leaflets, and they cover this sort of stuff. Feb 10 15:08:50 Hmm, reading that post, I wonder: Why would one need to disable gps in an airplane (not talking ITAR here) Feb 10 15:09:16 Captain/airline rules. Feb 10 15:09:22 SpeedEvil: "It won't transmit even when it's on, because our programming doesn't allow it". LOL. Unlike you, I'm a realist ;-) Feb 10 15:09:29 SpeedEvil - general paranoia? Feb 10 15:09:30 well, in principle active receivers do radiate very slight amounts of harmonic frequencies Feb 10 15:10:06 And ITAR is irrelevant - the ITAR laws say nothing about operating recievers, just capabilities. Feb 10 15:10:11 but yeah, chalk it up to paranoia Feb 10 15:10:48 For GPS, the amount emitted on the GPS frequency is two thirds of bugger all. Feb 10 15:11:03 Two adjacent (5cm) GPS recievers do not interfere. Feb 10 15:11:11 Which sets a really low limit on the emissions. Feb 10 15:11:30 mjr: it's not only residual RF, that's probably fairly harmless. It's what happens in response to other junk coming in down the antenna, like the local airport's radar. Turning on your PA is just one of many things that can happen. Feb 10 15:12:19 The only sure-fire way of being in control is having it turned off. Feb 10 15:12:32 I know it's not only residual, powered receivers do actively radiate a very slight amount Feb 10 15:12:43 The PA will be off in recieve mode. Feb 10 15:12:50 It uses lots of power. Feb 10 15:12:50 mjr: usually their LO's, yeah Feb 10 15:12:53 Even idle. Feb 10 15:15:02 counter Feb 10 15:15:03 a day 14:12:15 (1.592 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.592 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.592 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (202) Feb 10 15:15:10 ... until we know about AT commands. ;) Feb 10 15:15:23 i dont think anyone actually gives a damn about gsm use in hospitals anymore Feb 10 15:15:26 In practice, nothing will get messed up with reciever oscillators, unless they malfunction and start oscillating at the international distress frequency. Feb 10 15:15:27 you see everyone using them Feb 10 15:15:32 including staff Feb 10 15:15:40 (which has happened) Feb 10 15:15:50 maybe it's banned in a few select areas Feb 10 15:15:54 Helicopters turning up to investigate digital TV boxes. Feb 10 15:16:10 i could understand not wanting GSM near sensitive radiology equipment Feb 10 15:16:59 IMO, not taking into account the fact that patients (who may be unconsious or just forgetful) nowadays commonly carry tiny RF transmitters is insane. Feb 10 15:17:26 Of course, there are very old designs out there. Feb 10 15:18:10 And then there is the evil. Feb 10 15:18:27 'Yes, mobiles are banned.' Feb 10 15:18:29 buz: another reason for banning patient phones is... force people to use hospital phones at 12x the standard rate Feb 10 15:18:49 'Here is a nice all-in-one TV and phone, paid for at the low rate of only 1 limb/hour.' Feb 10 15:19:10 i always used cells in hospital Feb 10 15:19:52 nobody ever gave a damn Feb 10 15:20:15 same here Feb 10 15:20:19 ok i suggest not to take it with you into an MRI machine Feb 10 15:20:22 for obvious reasons Feb 10 15:20:30 the docters I know are raving about their wifi/bluetooth/gsm toys being able to do cool stuff wireless inside the hospital Feb 10 15:20:35 Well, any metal pretty much destroyus the picture in the area. Feb 10 15:20:36 yeah Feb 10 15:20:42 they run around with tablet pcs all day Feb 10 15:20:55 destroying pictures is one thing Feb 10 15:21:02 "but gsm aren't allowed inside the hospital" "no, patients and visitors aren't allowed gsms" Feb 10 15:21:06 Not to mention the bad exploding battery possibilities. and hte 'flying at speed' thing. Feb 10 15:21:11 iron flying towards the machine at insane speed much another Feb 10 15:21:27 You can design-in as much RF immunity into equipment as you like, but it all costs money, and even medical equipment is made to a price. Plus, individual items of equipment don't always meet the specs. So, I think it's pretty rational to try to avoid accidents if one has the means. Feb 10 15:21:56 acidents like what? heart rate being measured 0.1 beat off? Feb 10 15:22:06 So you're happy if everyone dies if an aircraft with operating radar passes over? Feb 10 15:22:11 its not like there is terribly complex stuff going on in your average patients room Feb 10 15:22:27 In general - RF immunity is not complex. You add filters. Feb 10 15:22:41 Nothing at all in the body generates frequencies over 200Hz or so. Feb 10 15:22:48 besides, there's gotta be shitloads of rf in a hospital any Feb 10 15:22:48 SpeedEvil: awacs routes are classified, so you'll never know what caused the failure ;) Feb 10 15:22:50 way Feb 10 15:23:04 Guys, I'm not trying to convert you to being over-cautious. Don't try to convert me to being under-cautious, please. Feb 10 15:23:23 fine, if i ever visit you in hospital, i'll turn my neo off Feb 10 15:23:38 Thanks buz. Feb 10 15:27:08 SpeedEvil: "In general - RF immunity is not complex. You add filters." --- ROFL. You clearly know bugger all about RF, SpeedEvil. It's not like the simple model we teach students in class, unfortunately. Feb 10 15:27:22 <-- ex Uni lecturer in Elec Eng. Feb 10 15:27:37 you just add shielding :) Feb 10 15:27:53 "just add lead(TM)" Feb 10 15:28:08 Only in the irelevant case of zero external interfaces. Feb 10 15:28:23 yeah Feb 10 15:28:43 * koen is glad the EMC course is optional Feb 10 15:29:40 Aye. It's one of the hairiest parts of EE. Feb 10 15:30:10 I have all that live and in color in the lab. ;o) Feb 10 15:30:32 Gratz, and sympathies ;-) Feb 10 15:30:36 People switching on the He-measurement thing and the main RF-based measurement goes wrong. ;o) Feb 10 15:31:05 birds and MWatt transmitters are compatible as well Feb 10 15:31:06 They needed 2 weeks to find out. Feb 10 15:31:53 People ran around and acused everything of disturbing the experiemnts. ;) Feb 10 15:32:03 Morgreet: the university had a great plan to make some money: allow a big radio station to put their broadcast stuff on the uni terrain Feb 10 15:32:14 Morgreet: on top of the EE labs....... Feb 10 15:32:20 And the funny thing about all this is that people think they're leaving all that mess behind by going digital ... without realizing the very small noise margins used in digital signalling so that rates can be kept up. :-) Feb 10 15:32:36 koen: LOL, great :P Feb 10 15:32:57 there's also all those impulse harmonics generated by having nice, square, waves Feb 10 15:33:12 * Stephmw is still traumatised by that fourier analysis Feb 10 15:33:17 heh Feb 10 15:33:26 hmmm... not sure about the spelling Feb 10 15:33:29 rect -> sinc(w) Feb 10 15:33:30 Stephmw: Hehe. You should try Walsh functions then :P Feb 10 15:33:59 * koen is in the middle of a course called "electronic signal processing" Feb 10 15:34:26 koen: nice :-) You can program our DSP in v2 ;-) Feb 10 15:34:32 :) Feb 10 15:34:35 Morgreet: thing that got me was that we had to discover for ourselves that integrating over -1/2t -> 1/2 was a nice shortcut... all the problem questions were always in the positive periods Feb 10 15:34:44 Morgreet: effing lecturers Feb 10 15:35:51 AT+CFUN=2 disable TX Feb 10 15:36:02 ... for another gsm module. Feb 10 15:36:10 Stephmw: well, the thing about lecturers (I'm allowed to criticize myself) is that the way Unis are structured, teaching is just a distraction from the only thing that's professionally important, which is publication. It's a very bad system. Feb 10 15:36:26 =4 disable TX and Rx. Feb 10 15:36:28 strange. Feb 10 15:37:07 Morgreet: agreed Feb 10 15:38:09 Morgreet: alas, that comes out as a major case of elitism and a lack of care :( Feb 10 15:38:15 Okay, that's the wrong command. It's only power saving. incoming calls will wake it up... Feb 10 15:38:18 Morgreet: and graduates that know jack all Feb 10 15:38:36 Indeed. It's very sad. Feb 10 15:39:41 In general I recommend school leavers to go to research-free polytechnics and colleges. The whole point of lecturing then becomes to *teach*. Feb 10 15:39:57 counter Feb 10 15:39:57 a day 13:47:20 (1.575 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.575 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.575 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (203) Feb 10 15:45:50 And polys tend to be a bit more vocationally-oriented too, which isn't bad. There's no harm in being able to do something practical on day 1 after you get your degree. ;-) Feb 10 15:47:27 And anyway, education is a life-long thing, not just a 3-year period. The very highest quality 3-year degree stint will get you nowhere if you abandon learning when you finish it. Feb 10 15:53:14 some people with 3 year degree beat the living shit out of many phds i know Feb 10 15:53:28 length of education is barely important Feb 10 15:54:27 but going to a non research uni isn't the solution in my view. most lectures by people who dont do research in their field just plain suck Feb 10 15:56:14 Hi Feb 10 15:56:38 Just wondering: I have to get a new phone anyways, around March/April, and a really free phone would be very nice. Feb 10 15:56:43 buz: yeah, that's true, it's not really possible to generalize about people. But the Uni system of not rewarding good lecturing at all doesn't help matters. Feb 10 15:56:57 thats true Feb 10 15:57:02 But how probably is it that I can indeed order the phone in march? Feb 10 15:57:15 counter Feb 10 15:57:15 a day 13:30:02 (1.563 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.563 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.563 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (204) Feb 10 15:57:28 reading the topic helps a lot Feb 10 15:58:40 Well, I know the dates. I’m wondering whether I can trust them. Are there rumors that the schedule can’t be kept? Feb 10 15:58:49 None. Feb 10 15:58:53 That sounds good. Feb 10 15:58:55 Well, less you're starting one. Feb 10 15:59:03 No intention :-) Feb 10 15:59:08 And they also ship to Germany? Feb 10 15:59:27 Wait and see ;-) Feb 10 15:59:50 Hmm. I’d rather plan and see :-) Feb 10 15:59:59 nomeata: The future is uncertain. If it weren't, I'd be a millionaire. ;-) Feb 10 16:00:11 Morgreet: yes - it's horribly more complex than that. For passive probes, not really a lot more complex, as you can simply filter insanely. For active probes, it gets a hell of a lot more complex. (filtering) Feb 10 16:00:28 So they just say, they ship to anyone, but now where anyone has to live? Feb 10 16:00:52 No. Feb 10 16:00:55 The Neo will be avail worldwide for developers / all people from March 11th Feb 10 16:01:00 The neo designers do not say where you have to live. Feb 10 16:01:08 You can live anywhere you like! Feb 10 16:01:19 GSM would be good, I guess. Feb 10 16:01:20 :-) Feb 10 16:01:32 Most places seem to be going GSM nowadays. Feb 10 16:02:10 They'll ship anywhere, if that's what you are asking. Feb 10 16:02:31 But what about the power plugs for the charger? Localized packages would be good. Feb 10 16:02:42 USB Feb 10 16:02:49 No charger included AIUI. Feb 10 16:02:49 It comes with a USB charger, so don't worry. Feb 10 16:02:49 nomeata: go google before wasting our time Feb 10 16:02:59 You can pick one up from ebay for your location for cheap. Feb 10 16:03:09 that's right, we rather waste it ourselves with stupid geeky discussions ;) Feb 10 16:03:19 It'll be charged over Bluetooth. (J/K!!!!!!!!!!!! ... worth saying, just in case) Feb 10 16:03:20 buz: Yer Feb 10 16:03:55 Point-point charging with IR laser isn't completely insane. Feb 10 16:04:09 allright, thx for the info and enjoy your discussions Feb 10 16:04:14 Yep. But the Neo doesn't have an IR port :D Feb 10 16:04:27 The efficiency is some 50%. Admittedly, you do need interlocks to detect stuff getting in the beam. Feb 10 16:04:38 And it can set stuff on fire if you get it wrong. Feb 10 16:05:05 i said it before, we need PoWifi Feb 10 16:05:33 And you think the anti-radiation freaks objected to wifi :) Feb 10 16:05:34 Already been done. I think they called it Star Wars. Feb 10 16:05:53 Personally, I'd be happy if USB could power 90% of stuff. Feb 10 16:06:01 That would cut down a hell of a lot of the clutter. Feb 10 16:06:27 yeah Feb 10 16:07:11 Even if there was just a 'high power' mode at 30V/0.5A, that'd suffice for a vast majority of stuff. One 'high power' enabled hub, and you just plug everything into it. Feb 10 16:07:29 (of course, it'd only be allowable to turn it on if all the hardware OK that voltave) Feb 10 16:07:41 Twas one of the design goals of Firewire. Feb 10 16:08:07 eye-triple-e 1394 Feb 10 16:11:39 There's good progress on FreeBoB, it could become quite a feather in the cap for Linux in the musicians area. USB isn't much liked because of latency. Feb 10 16:13:18 usbs main failure is that it re-encodes every bit at every hub Feb 10 16:13:41 so latency increases with every hub Feb 10 16:16:17 Morgreet: what's FreeBoB? Never heard of it Feb 10 16:16:18 Oh, USB audio latency wouldn't be an issue at all if it were only 1 bit time. Feb 10 16:16:45 It reencodes every bit at the hub - that causes microseconds of delay over the chain though. Feb 10 16:17:25 loufoque: oh it's a higher level interface running on top of Firewire. A lot of commercial gear uses the BeBoB firmware, and FreeBoB is basically the FOSS reimplementaion. Feb 10 16:18:24 freebob.sf.net Feb 10 16:20:40 I've got a MIDI keyboard that can accept a Firewire interface card, quite cheap, and it's on the FreeBoB compatibility list, so I think I'll give it a try. Feb 10 16:30:46 koen: yeah, i already saw :) Feb 10 17:01:15 counter Feb 10 17:01:15 a day 12:26:02 (1.518 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.518 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.518 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (205) Feb 10 17:05:17 oooh Feb 10 17:07:11 uuh aah Feb 10 17:11:20 mmh … may it be that the counter is wrong? On my clock it's ~ 6 h till 2007-02-11 Feb 10 17:12:08 I guess it counts until monday since they supposedly don't deliver on sundays.. Feb 10 17:13:18 xkr47: They must deliver on sunday. I like to _have_ mine on monday. ;) Feb 10 17:13:28 lol Feb 10 17:13:35 the happiest monday in your life :) Feb 10 17:13:56 * robtaylor crys that he won't be getting one Feb 10 17:14:09 Not really. Write a test on monday and saturday. Means I have no time before sunday anyway. Feb 10 17:14:09 stefan_schmidt: no idea if koreans work sundays or not Feb 10 17:14:10 robtaylor will be getting two ?-) Feb 10 17:14:25 xkr47: no such luck.. Feb 10 17:14:31 I'll get mine in a month Feb 10 17:14:40 or maybe not even then Feb 10 17:14:53 fluffs: Even if they do. They need to send him directly to germany. :) Feb 10 17:14:55 I just bought an apartment 3 hours ago so I might be busy with moving in there :D Feb 10 17:15:05 robtaylor: did you see http://0pointer.de/blog about fixedpoint resampling? Feb 10 17:15:08 xkr47: congrats :) Feb 10 17:15:11 xkr47: congrats Feb 10 17:15:11 thx :) Feb 10 17:15:14 xkr47: cheers Feb 10 17:15:33 I will get my openmoko when the dust settles, that's for sure :) Feb 10 17:15:38 koen: yeah, i was going to point it out toyou yesterday, but you were offline =) Feb 10 17:15:43 koen: happy days :) Feb 10 17:15:46 stefan_schmidt: yeah, may take a day or two Feb 10 17:15:58 thx stefan_schmidt & koen too :) Feb 10 17:16:33 fluffs: Next saturday is fine for me. More time to learn. :) Feb 10 17:18:38 Anyway I like to see the code opened. Just build it for x86 and play with it during learn phases. Feb 10 17:23:34 which timezone is the counter working in? Feb 10 17:23:48 The appropriate one AIUI. Feb 10 17:23:52 CST iirc Feb 10 17:24:02 the one FIC seems to use for their press releases Feb 10 17:24:43 I looked at the .tw post office site. Their local post offices do open reduced hours on sat and sun. Feb 10 17:24:58 Oh - is it .kr? Feb 10 17:27:58 hmm, it will be interesting to know if we get some tracking info... mine is off to work address, but i'm only in the office one day this comming week Feb 10 17:34:07 fluffs: I sure hope we'll get some tracking info Feb 10 17:38:37 They could just activate the GPS, and have it SMS you its location. Feb 10 17:40:26 SpeedEvil - *giggle* Feb 10 17:40:38 "Hey, where's my phone gone?" ;o) Feb 10 17:41:03 afaik they ship with UPS, so don't worry about tracking ;-) Feb 10 17:41:52 counter Feb 10 17:41:52 a day 11:45:25 (1.490 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.490 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.490 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (206) Feb 10 17:44:18 xkr47: but they release the source on sunday ;) Feb 10 17:44:32 ah yeah Feb 10 17:44:46 counter Feb 10 17:44:46 a day 11:42:31 (1.488 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.488 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.488 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (207) Feb 10 17:47:12 TRIsoft: better than DHL i suppose (Drop, Hide, Lose) Feb 10 17:47:54 *lol* nice one Feb 10 17:48:30 UPS (Usually Pranged Somewhere) Feb 10 17:49:05 :-) Feb 10 17:49:06 i hope that they can sell limited number of phone to developer ealier Feb 10 17:53:48 It's only a month. Feb 10 17:55:01 doesn't seem likely that the current timetable would be accelerated... Feb 10 17:55:47 * fluffs starts thinking about something for dinner Feb 10 18:16:38 morricone: 23:59:59.9999 CST for counter Feb 10 18:56:44 " They could just activate the GPS, and have it SMS you its location." --- I loved that, really laughed out loud here. :-) And you know, with v2 (assuming it has wifi) we could actually do effectively that, ie. send us its location by email every time it passes through a wifi hotspot. ;-) Feb 10 18:58:11 *G* Feb 10 18:58:42 Although hopefully we can buy v2 directly from shops. Still, it's a very funny idea. Feb 10 18:58:52 Well, if enough neos are out there, we can do uucp style mail over BT ;o) Feb 10 18:59:00 lol Feb 10 18:59:19 I haven't heard anyone mention uucp in a long time. Hiya old timer ;-) Feb 10 18:59:35 Yep. ;) Feb 10 18:59:43 You know, elves are old ;o) Feb 10 19:00:03 Oh yeah! LOL, hadn't made the connection ;-) Feb 10 19:00:39 The interesting question is: How do we know, that a neo will travel in the right direction? Feb 10 19:00:52 Well Morgaine was a Gujal, also thousands of years old ;-) Feb 10 19:01:00 ;) Feb 10 19:01:49 (The Chronicles of Morgaine -- C.J. Cherryh. Nothing to do with Arthurian legend) Feb 10 19:02:22 It's a heavily overloaded name Feb 10 19:03:41 Actually, if we tracked them directly with GPS, I bet we'd find all manner of horrors in UPS/DHL/etc logistics. Feb 10 19:04:06 *G* Yep. Feb 10 19:04:24 Anyway, my court cook has finished the meal. I'll be back later. ;) Feb 10 19:04:25 well, if the battery lasts that long... i doubt it ;) Feb 10 19:05:10 Oh, how about this as a simpler alternative, doable with v1 !!!! --> Just record the path, don't transmit! Battery will last much longer, and we'll get a giggle on receipt. :-))) Feb 10 19:06:39 hopefully the phone can do wake on RTC. Feb 10 19:06:57 That would be dead useful. Feb 10 19:07:12 For months 'on' time, polling networ for missed calls every few min. Feb 10 19:10:43 you can poll for missed calls? Feb 10 19:11:27 On some nets at leat AIUI Feb 10 19:11:42 st Feb 10 19:12:40 Ahh ... problem with the record-delivery path idea. I bet there's courier rules and legislation about putting live gadgets in the post. Feb 10 19:27:27 counter Feb 10 19:27:27 a day 09:59:50 (1.417 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.417 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.417 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (208) Feb 10 19:27:35 morning Feb 10 19:29:13 'Morning. Or something ;-) Feb 10 19:55:53 it's 2007-02-11 already on some parts of world and in UTC that day starts in 3.5h Feb 10 19:57:26 v1 counter would have claimed it relased in 1.5h (00:00:00 EET), v2 in 3.5h: I doubt either would have been right Feb 10 20:05:09 Hehe Feb 10 20:05:14 * Morgaine imagines a graphic of Adamsian time distortion as lunchtime sweeps around the world Feb 10 20:13:35 aloril2: it's 7:15am on 11 Feb 2007 here right now. Feb 10 20:14:18 This channel is number one on the obsession-o-meter. Feb 10 20:14:30 Number 0!!!! Feb 10 20:15:03 Tomorrow is going to be plain frightening. Feb 10 20:15:12 Obsession? What obsession? Oh. You mean the stopwatch? Feb 10 20:15:13 * rwhitby waits patiently by the door for his parcel from Sean to arrive ... it's been neo-day here for 7 hours already! Feb 10 20:15:21 Hehe Feb 10 20:15:48 What if it's all a hype! Feb 10 20:16:11 Then I applaud and bow to our hypemaster overlords ;-) Feb 10 20:16:29 thats right, its quite abuzz Feb 10 20:17:33 Jeez --> new Slashdot article about two under-18 teens prosecuted for sending "racy" pictures of each other to each other, and to nobody else. Feb 10 20:17:41 It made me think about Neo ... we could make inter-phone exchanges encrypted by default to people in your own circle of friends, with GPG keys exchanged over Bluetooth. Feb 10 20:18:31 There have been quite a few prosecutions in the UK for that. Feb 10 20:19:18 Wouldn't surprise me, but we're a nanny state evolving rapidly into a police state. Whereas that prosecution was in Florida. Feb 10 20:19:19 SpeedEvil, nothing new there u just misss the "..enc my racy pic" ui Feb 10 20:20:29 It's actually legal to take a 16 yo girl out for a nice gangbang, but illegal to take a 'erotic' picture of her. Feb 10 20:20:33 Insane. Feb 10 20:20:34 lol Feb 10 20:21:05 tsts Feb 10 20:21:21 Anyway - V1 has no camera, so this is all moot :) Feb 10 20:22:15 SpeedEvil: self-powered usb camera Feb 10 20:22:19 v2 has my vote for also not having one Feb 10 20:22:35 Personally, I want a camera. Feb 10 20:22:49 I don't so much want it for taking pictures of friends vomiting, or ... Feb 10 20:22:54 I presume the lack of camera is due to the parallel use of the hardware for a large Chinese government conract. Feb 10 20:23:02 I want it for taking pictures of price labels in shops. Feb 10 20:23:15 And for reminding myself of the colour of those tiles. Feb 10 20:23:16 SpeedEvil: ditto Feb 10 20:23:29 And as a barcode reader Feb 10 20:23:32 And for remembering where on the car that screw went. Feb 10 20:23:33 ... Feb 10 20:23:51 Plus, gesture interfaces may be interesting. Feb 10 20:24:55 Like... sticking your middlefinger up, and it'll call your boss? Feb 10 20:24:57 A camera is handy... just found out that a camera we bought doesn't work with gnomemeeting Feb 10 20:25:20 However, some people aren't allowed to take cameras into work. I wonder if that issue could be handled with a simple lens cap? If they don't trust you to keep the lens cap on, you really don't want to work for them. Feb 10 20:25:20 There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Hardware for details on what is included. Feb 10 20:25:59 hehe - wonder who triggered that. Feb 10 20:26:00 There can always be a version without the camera, replacing it with a FPGA. Feb 10 20:26:04 :) Feb 10 20:26:15 aloril is over-eager ;-) Feb 10 20:26:31 bit hard to do a cmos sensor on an fpga though ... Feb 10 20:26:46 Woa, is SD memory really down to < 10 EUR per GB? Feb 10 20:26:47 Naah - all you need is a transparent package :) Feb 10 20:27:36 Any info on the devel environment? Feb 10 20:27:37 rwhitby: a compromise on my fully-modular suggestion? Just one optional plugin module, either camera or .... something. Feb 10 20:27:54 I _think_ I saw my provider advertise a wireless camera. Feb 10 20:29:04 I suppose it wouldn't be too impossible to swap the lens for one that focussed on its surface, to do a fingerprint scanner only. Feb 10 20:29:48 Even better and simpler, just make the camera an easy plug in/out jobbie .... then those who aren't allowed to take cameras into the office can just leave the module at home. Feb 10 20:31:06 Which makes the case rather harder. Feb 10 20:31:11 And that has a HUGE benefit for an open phone: the camera module will be upgradeable as technology improves! Feb 10 20:31:15 Weird... it's a remote controllable UMTS camera. Feb 10 20:31:23 Yeah - saw that. Feb 10 20:31:53 I suppose if you could do it as a removable from the back Feb 10 20:32:04 and you pull the battery to take it out... Feb 10 20:32:16 Good idea. Feb 10 20:32:16 http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=11838 Feb 10 20:32:33 (expensive) bluetooth camera Feb 10 20:34:43 Not bad actually ... nice that it has an optical viewfinder too, for DSLR fans. Feb 10 20:35:57 * SpeedEvil wants a DSLR camera module with 10MP in the phone. Feb 10 20:35:58 :) Feb 10 20:36:08 Hehe Feb 10 20:36:14 And a folded 10cm diameter lens. Feb 10 20:36:36 Those multi-folded lenses are a nice idea. Feb 10 20:36:43 Actually - a good VGA is OK. Feb 10 20:36:44 Well. Feb 10 20:36:50 I'm not sure for a phone. Feb 10 20:36:58 For a phone, I want something robust. Feb 10 20:37:11 I do not want something that is going to be damaged by sand, ... Feb 10 20:37:31 Dust gets into folded lenses lots easier. Feb 10 20:38:20 dust gets into dslrs pretty quick as well Feb 10 20:39:30 I was meaning 'any lenses with gaps'. Feb 10 20:40:12 * koen recommends a canon eos 1D series + weather sealed lenses Feb 10 20:40:28 saves you a subscription to a gym as well Feb 10 20:40:47 hmm - that's gonna make the phone bulky when they integrate that into v2 ... Feb 10 20:40:50 Quite a few have weather seals. Nikon D200 and Canon 5D too. Feb 10 20:41:04 5d doesn't have real weather sealing Feb 10 20:41:54 Odd, at that price ... Feb 10 20:42:44 that's canon for you Feb 10 20:42:58 anything outside the 1D line is dumbed down Feb 10 20:43:04 expensive, but dumbed down Feb 10 20:46:31 I've got Nikons, but I'm agnostic. I've bought Sony for family, and have been recommending Konica-Minolta (now bought by Sony, sadly) to friends, and will prolly buy a Panasonic compact for self. Feb 10 20:47:55 I went for canon because they have the best macro equipment Feb 10 20:47:55 And a FIC cameraphone :-))))) Feb 10 20:49:30 the Panasonics are nice Feb 10 20:49:38 Canon do lots of great stuff. They really rose in my estimation with the anti-dust tech in the 400D, after years of them saying that "dust is not a problem". Feb 10 20:49:51 I have a Nikon D70s Feb 10 20:50:10 Very nice, the D70s. I have a D70. Feb 10 20:50:11 dust is not a problem if you don't use your camera Feb 10 20:50:20 koen: hehehe Feb 10 20:50:44 I also have a speedlight Feb 10 20:50:57 Me too, SB800 Feb 10 20:51:02 same here Feb 10 20:51:24 Very cool to control a pile of flashes remotely. Feb 10 20:51:36 indeed Feb 10 20:51:39 Yeah Feb 10 20:51:44 but somehow it annoys my girlfriend Feb 10 21:21:44 I rather like the idea of gathering/exchanging GPG keys from friends automatically over Bluetooth, and then using them by default for comms. Just wondering how to control it, and whether it should be fully automatic or partly manual for trust assignment. Feb 10 21:22:19 automatic gathering, manual trust assignment. Feb 10 21:22:42 Unsync'd? Do trust assignment later? Feb 10 21:22:59 (since you need to do id verification so as not to weaken the web of trust) Feb 10 21:23:37 it should pop up a "fingerprint is XXXX - Accept and Trust?" Feb 10 21:23:44 Yeah. I guess it could be an option whether to require trust assignment at point of gathering or not. Feb 10 21:24:53 If it's user initiated, then 'I've met him/her" shouold be a reasonable default. Feb 10 21:25:17 With the phones playing a little tune at the same time to indicate sync. Feb 10 21:25:28 And make sure you're not getting someone elses key. Feb 10 21:25:38 as long as you check the fingerprint at the same time, to prevent man-in-the-middle bluetooth attacks :-) Feb 10 21:25:40 * CoreDump|home wonders if anybody got his "developer edition" neo already Feb 10 21:25:57 CoreDump|home: hey - I need to talk to you about altboot! Feb 10 21:25:58 I've got PDF0 version. Feb 10 21:26:06 It sucks. Feb 10 21:26:06 Yeah, that's the issue with after-the-event trust assignment ... did you get the key while looking at the person you know, or was it later after you were passing Eve. Feb 10 21:26:10 Though it is very thin. Feb 10 21:26:24 rwhitby, hi there Feb 10 21:26:53 CoreDump|home: can we discuss altboot in #oe? Feb 10 21:38:30 just listening to OpenMoko @ LugRadio with the interview with MickeyL Feb 10 21:39:02 ~praise mickey|sports Feb 10 21:39:13 All hail mickey|sports! Feb 10 21:41:30 there's an interview w/ sean on youtube Feb 10 21:41:45 an aspect that they did not cover, and I might be reading this wrong, but isn't one of the reasons FIC is supporting OpenMoko is to create a standard platform that any manufacturers can run and then all the HW manufacturers can get back to building devices without them all having to run their own in house software teams Feb 10 21:42:39 and then the manufacturers can roll their own Openmoko installs for teens, grans and geeks ? Feb 10 21:43:28 RevTig: in an ideal world, maybe. In this one, I think FIC's doing it just because Sean has a vision. ;-) Feb 10 21:43:55 ah yes :) and all hail the vision :) :) :) Feb 10 21:44:18 It's what drew me to OpenMoko, more than any corporate stance. ;-) Feb 10 21:44:21 !praise The Vision (TM) Feb 10 21:44:23 * cdbot2 bows down to The Vision (TM) and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Feb 10 21:45:51 damnit I must stop posting when on holiday in other worlds :) Feb 10 21:45:59 Hehehe Feb 10 21:47:52 We're all in slightly different worlds. Just ask Einstein, Lorentz, and the QM guys with their many-worlds interpretation. ;-) Feb 10 21:48:55 what is it w/ FIC and sunday anyway? Feb 10 21:49:04 eh? Feb 10 21:49:21 The developer launch is due next sunday Feb 10 21:50:00 They want to party late and have a valid excuse of putting off the monday morning e-mail deluge? Feb 10 21:50:07 for even Feb 10 21:50:26 hmm, sounds like a worthy plan then Feb 10 21:51:21 any invites going? :) Feb 10 21:51:21 Well, while both the 11-Feb and 11-Mar events are on Sundays, the 11-Sep one is a Tuesday ... so the real question is, what's up with FIC and the number 11? ;-) Feb 10 21:51:31 hmm Feb 10 21:51:38 Sean has 11 fingers, diddn't you know? Feb 10 21:51:42 Hahahahaha Feb 10 21:51:43 =D Feb 10 21:51:47 good one Feb 10 21:51:54 that explains his 400 wpm typing :) Feb 10 21:52:01 lol Feb 10 21:53:05 the first cellphone call was made on April 3, 1973, so thats not where 11 comes from Feb 10 21:53:34 aye, I was wondering if it is a lucky number in TW Feb 10 21:54:16 either that and there is going to be something insanely geeky involving unix timestamps :) Feb 10 21:54:41 * RevTig can hear the hundreds of keyboards trying to prove / disprove a theory :) Feb 10 21:55:06 heh Feb 10 21:55:25 The unix epoch should have begun on the day of the first moon landing. Feb 10 21:56:27 ah yes but in this human rights culture on the internet, we must take into account the beliefs of the people who believe the moon landings were faked Feb 10 21:56:42 :P Feb 10 21:56:54 11 is a clear reference to the Kingdom of Loathing on-line game Feb 10 21:57:22 ooo where is my turtle... Feb 10 21:57:32 They were obviously faked. Al Gore didn't invent the Moon until much later. Feb 10 21:57:40 GPWM Feb 10 21:58:03 and also Ted Stevens had not got a drainpipe up there too Feb 10 21:58:10 http://xkcd.com/c202.html Feb 10 21:58:23 http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Eleven ; also has Eleven-references at the end Feb 10 21:58:27 perhaps FIC got it from Spinal Tap Feb 10 21:59:35 damnit, so close Feb 10 21:59:52 ah our volume control goes to 11 ? Feb 10 22:00:20 damni, if you xor all the ascii values for the guy's name who made the first callphone call, "Martin Cooper" you get 10 Feb 10 22:00:49 * Psi_ rechecks Feb 10 22:00:49 that was geeky Feb 10 22:00:53 totally Feb 10 22:00:59 * RevTig worships Feb 10 22:01:06 counter Feb 10 22:01:07 a day 07:26:09 (1.310 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.310 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.310 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (209) Feb 10 22:01:55 * rwhitby wishes the counter was in his timezone ... Feb 10 22:03:53 n8 all Feb 10 22:13:58 Morgaine - the recipient in moko-uucp should be declared using gps coords. ;o) That way, the phone can decide, if it is traveling in the right direction and should relay the message or forget it after a week. ;o) Feb 10 22:26:15 You wrote it? Feb 10 22:26:17 oops Feb 10 22:27:13 SpeedEvil - No, it's spec-ware. ;o) Feb 10 22:27:41 counter Feb 10 22:27:41 a day 06:59:35 (1.291 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.291 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.291 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (210) Feb 10 22:27:48 Mischan :) Feb 10 22:29:37 "Mischan"? Feb 10 22:29:48 mischief? Feb 10 22:29:59 It was a communication on the incorrect channel. Feb 10 22:30:15 twice :P Feb 10 22:30:21 As in "misstell" in MMOGs Feb 10 22:30:35 or ECHAN Feb 10 22:30:53 STATUS_WRONG_CHANNEL *duck* ;o) Feb 10 22:40:22 night all Feb 10 22:40:31 NN Feb 10 23:10:05 counter Feb 10 23:10:06 a day 06:17:10 (1.262 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.262 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.262 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (211) Feb 10 23:21:41 cool Feb 10 23:22:35 I think I've just encountered my first DVD produced by a sane techie, instead of by an ego-tripping artist directed by a media marketting droid. It's a cheap transfer of Leon, and it launches directly into a menu containing the word "Setup" as an option. No adverts, no copyright warnings, no noise, and no image cycling. A complete revelation. ;-) Feb 10 23:23:44 thtas mostly because it wasn't produced by a holywood production Feb 10 23:23:58 in the us they have requirements for all that stuff Feb 10 23:27:16 Seems to be a proper Touchstone production. But if ripoffs avoided all the usual lead-in crap, they'd be worth buying in preference. :-) Feb 10 23:33:24 *G* Feb 10 23:36:40 Apropos "marketting droid": Will FIC have them for the Neo in phase 2? ;o) Feb 10 23:50:42 Leon is a good movie :) Feb 10 23:54:33 CM: it is... I just bought the uncut version as well Feb 10 23:54:45 can't say I thought the extra bits added much to the film Feb 10 23:55:31 bluelightning: I haven't seen the uncut version, but thanks for hinting it didn't add much :) Feb 10 23:55:37 Elrond: hehe, let's hope Sean can isolate us from marketting droids ;-) Feb 10 23:55:50 CM: yes, Leon is absolutely supreme. Feb 10 23:55:58 Is marketing really spelled with two t's? Feb 10 23:56:11 Everyone seem to do it on this channel and I can't figure out why Feb 10 23:56:14 .P Feb 10 23:56:16 :P Feb 10 23:56:29 * CM has had at least 3 beers too much ;) Feb 10 23:57:30 CM: I don't really know. I've always spelt it with two t's, just looks right. Think it looks better with just one? Feb 10 23:57:33 CM: well I won't spoil it any further for you then :) Feb 10 23:58:28 for the record, marketing has one and only one T Feb 10 23:59:02 gotta love english... I mean net goes to netting and yet market goes to marketing Feb 10 23:59:02 I just did a google fight, it's 491 million for one t versus 513 thousand for tt ;( Feb 10 23:59:17 bluelightning: yeah, I had the region 1 DTS version, was fantastic. But I seem to have lost it somewhere, maybe lent it to family, so replaced with this cheap one. Feb 10 23:59:39 CM: hehe Feb 10 23:59:41 btw, anyone at SCALE5x? Feb 10 23:59:59 Tv: I wish, but I'll be stuck here in sweden.. Feb 11 00:00:39 Morgaine: when you look at the movie it's very obviously a European-directed film... doesn't feel like Hollywood (which is nice for a change) Feb 11 00:00:51 bluelightning: true Feb 11 00:02:31 V for Vendetta made me want to see Leon again: I hadn't liked any film with Natalie Portman since Leon, but she was great in VforV, I thought. Feb 11 00:02:58 Morgaine: yeah I agree... she did a near-perfect accent too (I thought) Feb 11 00:03:05 Morgaine: Ah, thanks for reminding me.. Want do see that one :) Feb 11 00:05:16 bluelightning: the whole V thing just worked for me, really ties in to the belated 1984 here. Very original Batmanesque too. Feb 11 00:06:27 And I didn't even notice her accent, so it was in character. Feb 11 00:43:54 not to so dissent; just geniuenly curious; what guarantee do all developers, investing much of their time into openmoko, has that FIC won't just fold / kill the product line? Feb 11 00:44:58 Well. Feb 11 00:45:08 Once the source is open, there is little they can direclty do. Feb 11 00:45:27 Other than stop providing hardware. Feb 11 00:45:44 asdf_: Your wrote code for the framework not for a special phone. It will be ported on non FIC phones. Feb 11 00:45:44 Hopefully, with sales, FIC have no desire to. Feb 11 00:46:12 currently is there any other phone that comes even close to what FIC provides? Feb 11 00:46:12 If, of course the phase 2 sales tank, then they may stop supporting the project. Feb 11 00:46:23 There are many that are on the horizon. Feb 11 00:47:25 asdf_: If you change the display res motorola A780 is pretty near. Feb 11 00:47:40 Whether they will come over the horizon in the promised shape is a different question. Feb 11 00:47:42 asdf_: And of course all the branded HTC phones Feb 11 00:47:55 Is the A780 actually open? Feb 11 00:48:17 Or is it like the A1200, where they use the linux kernel, but you can't actually run your own stuff on it. Feb 11 00:48:46 SpeedEvil: Moto only open the source the need to. Feb 11 00:49:06 SpeedEvil: For A780 we have a 2.6 kernel almost running. Feb 11 00:49:15 :) Feb 11 00:49:22 Talking to the hardware? Feb 11 00:49:26 SpeedEvil: With openmoko on top this will be fun. Feb 11 00:49:51 I don't have a working decent connection ATM - what's the a780 compared to the a1200, or neo? Feb 11 00:49:52 SpeedEvil: Booting kernel and even GPE or OPIE Feb 11 00:50:35 I have a motorola razr Feb 11 00:50:36 A1200 has just a nicer design. Feb 11 00:50:41 can I do any cool developemnt on it? Feb 11 00:51:06 asdf_: Not linux. It's the old P2k OS Feb 11 00:51:37 K. Feb 11 00:51:49 SpeedEvil: Some A780 also have GPS. Pretty near to Neo. But A780 is a flip phone and has only 320x240 Feb 11 00:52:07 I'm not wholly convinced that I care about 640*480. Feb 11 00:52:26 I mean, yes, I can put an 80*25 terminal on it, and peer at it from 25cm. Feb 11 00:52:45 heh Feb 11 00:52:57 Anyway, have to sleep now. cu Feb 11 00:52:57 But, other than for nethack, why would I :) Feb 11 00:52:59 Wave. Feb 11 00:58:51 stefan_schmidt: do you know of any way to get a standard A1200 to connect to a bluetooth access point running pan? Feb 11 00:59:07 doh! just missed him. Feb 11 01:26:07 counter Feb 11 01:26:07 a day 04:01:07 (1.167 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.167 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.167 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (212) Feb 11 01:26:29 boink Feb 11 01:58:52 counter Feb 11 01:58:52 a day 03:28:22 (1.145 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.145 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.145 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (213) Feb 11 02:06:26 does anyone know where to obtain a login for wiki.openmoko.org? Feb 11 02:06:38 I don't think it's open yet. Feb 11 02:28:37 wow, soon we'll have the official wiki and svn repo! :) Feb 11 02:28:51 sourcetastic Feb 11 02:28:55 tick tock :) Feb 11 02:35:15 asdf_: there are no guarantees. The future is uncertain, and that applies to all things. Feb 11 02:36:23 lol Feb 11 02:36:25 does anyone know about tools? cross compiler? emulator? Feb 11 02:37:27 can we build a development platform on an x86 Linux platform? Feb 11 02:37:50 upload/download to the phone? Feb 11 02:37:53 DukeOfURL: wait a day. Or you can go to OE site and get general stuff. 99% of will apply to OpenMoko. Feb 11 02:37:59 DukeOfURL: given that OE can do that and it's apparently based on OE I would say definitely to build on x86 Feb 11 02:38:27 k **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Feb 11 02:59:57 2007