**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Feb 16 02:59:58 2007 Feb 16 03:00:01 rwhitby: cool Feb 16 03:02:29 last day there was +4 nick record count increase: 251 2007-02-15 Feb 16 03:02:56 rwhitby, not sure how you can do this in the makefile, but the gcc patch needs to apply otherwise it fails Feb 16 03:03:48 haven't tested MokoMakefile (still building using previous instructions, this machine is too slow/too much other load and downloads timed out yesterday too) Feb 16 03:03:50 but still: Feb 16 03:03:53 counter? Feb 16 03:03:53 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 6 days 08:22:49 (7.349 - 13.349 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, a week, 6 days (29.349 - 44.349 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, a week, 6 days (197.349 - 227.349 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (339) Feb 16 03:05:21 Does the neo1973 support Dyntick? Feb 16 03:06:36 jh|home: maybe that is fixed in svn? it does refer to never version 1004 while Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch refered to older version yesterday (now refers to new one too) Feb 16 03:07:01 s/never/newer/ Feb 16 03:07:01 aloril meant: jh|home: maybe that is fixed in svn? it does refer to newer version 1004 while Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch refered to older version yesterday (now refers to new one too) Feb 16 03:09:55 another article: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2657814070.html Feb 16 03:11:25 old dates Feb 16 03:12:22 aloril, the patch failed to apply, but it dumps to shell so I applied the fix from the website and it's compiling now Feb 16 03:15:54 jh|home: OK (I guess either makefile needs fixing or wiki) Feb 16 03:16:05 that article has interesting comment "Among other contributions, Welte wrote the modem multiplexing code that enables OpenMoko-based devices to simultaneously browse the web and take/make calls, for example." Feb 16 03:16:27 is openmoko planning to have samba server fo connecting to other devices/PC Feb 16 03:16:57 jh|home: ok, I'll do the patch too Feb 16 03:17:01 Does the neo1973 use standard GSM multiplexing? Feb 16 03:17:08 aloril: that's a bit odd - AIUI, it's network operators that can prevent that. Feb 16 03:17:16 Or often don't enable. Feb 16 03:17:37 Oh, wait. that article is a bit fuzzy... Feb 16 03:17:41 empty_mind: that almost certainly won't be the default. Feb 16 03:17:55 empty_mind: you can install samba on it if you want though, sure. Feb 16 03:18:12 I think take all these with a big pinch of salt. Feb 16 03:18:23 The reason that GPRS can't do data and voice at the same time is that certain channels are used for GPRS and certain are used for voice. Feb 16 03:18:27 One stated that end users could buy it in a couple of months. Feb 16 03:18:34 Without any caveats. Feb 16 03:19:51 rwhitby, there are four 'build fixes' on the wiki, i guess they should go in the makefile until they're fixed up Feb 16 03:20:03 i just did them manually Feb 16 03:20:08 But, the multi-plexing code you need is for dealing with command and control over a single UART connection while concurrently doing PPP. Feb 16 03:20:11 jh|home: fixed - run "make update-makefile ; make setup" Feb 16 03:20:29 If I'm doing GPRS via PPP, how will I know when a phone call comes in? Feb 16 03:20:30 I had the first three - I had omitted the fourth Feb 16 03:20:38 Ah - makes sense. Feb 16 03:20:56 They'll presumably be talking of gsmd then Feb 16 03:20:56 There's a standard part of the GSM spec that includes multiplexing for this. Feb 16 03:21:19 ah, ok Feb 16 03:21:25 I wonder if it's something existing phones could do, but don't. Feb 16 03:21:35 Some of my phones let you do multiple bluetooth links so you can do it that way if you want. The last GSM phone I bought didn't support the standard protocols :( Feb 16 03:21:38 As it'd warp their fragile little minds. Feb 16 03:22:06 Being able to GSM+GPRS would be nice. Feb 16 03:22:14 I don't think _any_ phones can do concurrent voice and data without WCDMA. Feb 16 03:22:27 Verizoff / SPrint CDMA protocols can't do concurrent voice/data on their 3G network. Feb 16 03:22:28 Is that inherent in the protocol? Feb 16 03:22:50 The GSM protocol. Feb 16 03:22:53 For the EvDO and higher CDMA protocols, yes, my understanding is that it's inherent. Feb 16 03:22:58 bhima, you mean to say there are phones which will let you set multiple bluetooth connections simultaneously ? Feb 16 03:23:00 GSM. Feb 16 03:23:10 CDMA is irrelevant. Feb 16 03:23:17 To the neo - at least in the short term. Feb 16 03:23:21 For GSM, it's inherently impractical. Feb 16 03:23:33 You have 8 time slices, 1 needed for voice. Feb 16 03:24:00 So if you wanted to do concurrent voice and data, you'd need to mingle voice and data on a single channel. Feb 16 03:24:43 AIUI, GPRS is added to existing voice cells by removing voice management components and putting GPRS management components there. Feb 16 03:24:55 Anyone else tried MokoMakefile yet? Feb 16 03:25:00 The bit transmission foo is the same, but the management layer that feeds it the bits is different. Feb 16 03:25:05 So it's basically either/or. Feb 16 03:25:11 rwhitby, i am planning to try it tonight Feb 16 03:25:35 rwhitby, just trying to understand the specs first Feb 16 03:25:38 So, from a network utilization standpoint it would be challenging, and from a cell infrastructure design standpoint, it would also be challenging. Feb 16 03:25:39 bhima: at least one existing can do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Class_A_GPRS_Phones Feb 16 03:25:48 rwhitby, you want me to try something different ? Feb 16 03:26:02 bhima: and there are at least 2 upcoming from Nokia not mentioned at that page AFAIC Feb 16 03:26:03 empty_mind: you can do that while you're waiting for the compile to finish - you'll have many hours ... Feb 16 03:26:53 aloril: interesting. So it can do two frequencies at once...? Feb 16 03:27:23 rwhitby, cool, so i will start in few hours. once i reach office Feb 16 03:28:22 (at one point, I was thinking of sticking a CF EvDO and CF GPRS card into a small case with a gumstix. Get me nice fast data and voice at once.) Feb 16 03:28:47 sucks about the battery life though :) Feb 16 03:28:50 You can't do two CF with cumstick can you? Feb 16 03:28:56 s/cu/gu/ Feb 16 03:28:56 SpeedEvil meant: You can't do two CF with gumstick can you? Feb 16 03:29:05 * SpeedEvil signs. Feb 16 03:29:10 gah. Feb 16 03:29:24 SpeedEvil: Not without some extra PCB design... Feb 16 03:29:44 http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp?doc_id=67687 talks about Nokia's concurrent voice/data stuff. Feb 16 03:31:02 The spec sheet is interesting: Feb 16 03:31:06 Dual Transfer Mode (DTM) support for simultaneous voice and packet data connection in GSM/EDGE networks. Simple class A, multi slot class 11, max speed DL/UL: 177.6/118.4 kbits/s Feb 16 03:31:06 EGPRS class B, multi slot class 32, max speed DL/UL= 296 / 177.6 kbits/s Feb 16 03:31:12 from http://europe.nokia.com/A4346043 "GPRS/EGPRS (Class A, MSC 32)" and "Dual transfer mode MSC11, SAIC rel v1" and wiki GPRS page: it seems it requires operator support Feb 16 03:31:30 Is it anSigh. Feb 16 03:31:51 It looks like you only get class A if the base station does what I said - spreads the voice users out as much as possible. Feb 16 03:32:28 It's a pity data calls are so damn expensive in many places. Feb 16 03:32:34 (mobile-mobile) Feb 16 03:32:48 As at least that would - with your own codec get you a small side channel. Feb 16 03:33:04 I found the latency on mobile-mobile data to be very high. Feb 16 03:33:11 CSD mobile-mobile. Feb 16 03:33:31 I thought a call would be better than GPRS. Feb 16 03:33:41 Handled as realtime, not best effort. Feb 16 03:33:48 I think there is error correction overhead. Feb 16 03:34:03 Ah. Be nice to turn that off. Feb 16 03:34:13 I did some testing and some googling a few years ago. It looked like the problem was in the phones. Feb 16 03:34:16 so.. if GSM module was open, we could get DTM too Feb 16 03:34:36 I know that some older Apple remote access stuff turned off compression and error correction in your modem. Feb 16 03:34:48 They implmented their own protocols for that to preserve responsiveness. Feb 16 03:35:23 Over slow links, FEC usually wins. Feb 16 03:42:49 http://planet.openmoko.org/ now has the MokoMakefile blog entry. Feb 16 03:48:59 what about page like this in wiki: "Put your nick here if you intent to order Phase-1 phone as it becomes available. This is *not* preorder or order page and thus preferably put nick instead of name here. This is just for fun." or something like that .. Feb 16 03:55:11 that could be good for getting an estimate and maybe what the demand will be for each color Feb 16 03:57:28 I want one in carbon fiber. Real carbon fiber. Feb 16 03:58:41 estimate would most likely be too low, I suspect sizeof(people_willing_to_order) > sizeof(people_willing_to_just_note_interest) Feb 16 03:58:59 IME - not, Feb 16 03:59:10 I've done some bulk orders over the net. Feb 16 03:59:21 Admittedly only for stuff costing $50 Feb 16 03:59:26 and only 50 of. Feb 16 03:59:31 100 of. Feb 16 03:59:37 But I only had one dropout. Feb 16 03:59:43 It might be higher for phones. Feb 16 03:59:58 I want one, but I'm not sure I will buy it for $350. Feb 16 04:00:07 it would be good for getting the percentages of each color to produce though Feb 16 04:00:21 Language such as "Please note your interest only if you have $350 set aside to purchase the neo" Feb 16 04:00:25 may help Feb 16 04:00:35 hmm.. so nick + color + count Feb 16 04:00:40 Holy crap Quake 2 runs on the N800 0.0 Feb 16 04:00:48 Hmm. Feb 16 04:00:50 hah Feb 16 04:00:57 I do have the $$$. But there's a shiny new lens I want for my camera, and the iPhone is coming out too... Feb 16 04:00:59 Doom II should just about run on the neo. Feb 16 04:01:16 doom 2 should run fine imho Feb 16 04:01:23 Well. Feb 16 04:01:32 There is of course the whole touchscreen thing. Feb 16 04:01:37 hehe Feb 16 04:01:49 And my boss jsut gave me an N800, and I have my 770, and an E70, so, erm, maybe I have too many portable gadgets. Feb 16 04:01:53 usb PS2/bluetooth controller. Feb 16 04:02:05 that's why i sold my 770 Feb 16 04:02:05 Use the Wii remote. :) Feb 16 04:02:15 The wii remote also has a camera! Feb 16 04:02:18 Clint: It looks so much nicer than the N800, though. Feb 16 04:02:21 Two birds with one stone. Feb 16 04:02:24 yeah, and it doesn't have that bulge Feb 16 04:02:26 SpeedEvil: But only for four points :( Feb 16 04:02:39 but it doesn't have enough memory Feb 16 04:02:42 Actually - AIUI, it is a general purpose IR camera. Feb 16 04:02:51 Of very low resolution. Feb 16 04:02:54 SpeedEvil: I thought that you couldn't turn it into that mode. Feb 16 04:02:58 I think it's a megapixel. Feb 16 04:03:12 I mean like 128*128 or something. Feb 16 04:03:18 * SpeedEvil tries to remember that URL. Feb 16 04:03:58 yeah, megapixel says wikipedia. Feb 16 04:04:34 I find sources saying 20KP. Feb 16 04:04:47 I don't believe megapixel for a moment - pointless. Feb 16 04:04:55 You can't get the update rate cheaply at that res. Feb 16 04:06:14 http://www.wiili.org/forum/logging-linear-force-data-t193.html Feb 16 04:07:11 Why did Nokia make the N800 so much uglier? Feb 16 04:07:16 With such terrible buttons? Feb 16 04:07:43 It's been Nokiafied. They made it look all shiny and cheap and glossy, like most of their other products. Feb 16 04:08:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPh2Os0D8pY <-- Quake2 on N800 Feb 16 04:09:31 The buttons don't exactly look tactile. Feb 16 04:09:42 They don't feel tacticle. Feb 16 04:09:52 But they actually seem to work. Feb 16 04:09:52 They just feel like crap. Feb 16 04:09:55 Unfortunately, people seem to buy on thebasis of 'oooh shiny' these days. Feb 16 04:10:02 Without actually feeling how it works. Feb 16 04:10:12 They're small and exceedingly cheap chromey. Feb 16 04:10:37 The 770's buttons, IMHO, were very nicely built. Feb 16 04:22:58 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Buying_Interest_List (not linked from anywhere yet) Feb 16 04:30:08 wow, this is hawt. Feb 16 04:30:17 finally my dream to take over the world can be realised. Feb 16 04:30:32 * SpeedEvil takes over the world first. Feb 16 04:30:43 race ya. Feb 16 04:31:07 I took over the world yesterday, but I decided to leave it the way it was because it's kind of interesting. Feb 16 04:31:44 * wmealing sighs and ponders other persuits. Feb 16 04:34:49 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Search <-- im so down with that.. and it seems doable. Feb 16 04:37:37 * rwhitby requests MokoMakefile project at projects.openmoko.org, so that other developers can help improve the MokoMakefile Feb 16 04:40:51 good idea, rwhitby Feb 16 04:41:34 In nslu2-linux, we have the MasterMakefile in a monotone branch alongside org.openembedded.dev Feb 16 04:42:13 hmm.. wonder if it would be OK to add Buying_Interest_List to Main_Page in Miscellaneous section below wishlist ? Feb 16 04:42:26 aevin: But since OpenMoko seems to have chosen SVN (which is fine with me), then putting it on projects.openmoko.org makes sense Feb 16 04:42:52 aloril: it's a wiki - it's always OK :-) Feb 16 04:43:09 rwhitby: hehe, just wondered if there was better place Feb 16 04:43:27 Ah - so that's how you do tables. Feb 16 04:43:35 so has anyone ported the openmoko gui/gsm stack to any other phones yet? Feb 16 04:52:35 * rwhitby changes the outgoing firewall to allow git to fetch Feb 16 04:52:40 rwhitby: hehe (phase 0 edit) Feb 16 04:52:50 couldn't resist Feb 16 04:53:30 Let us know if you want to change that to -1 :) Feb 16 04:53:58 SpeedEvil: *very* unlikely Feb 16 04:54:23 I'll provide MokoMakefile and MokoSlug for your enjoyment instead ... Feb 16 05:05:54 * aloril suspects phase_1_sales_in_first_week / buying_interest_count > 10.0 Feb 16 05:21:09 anyone else tried the MokoMakefile yet? Feb 16 05:21:35 in progress Feb 16 05:21:45 * aloril noticed wikipedia OpenMoko entry was outdated Feb 16 05:21:55 and woah, recentchanges for wikipedia really flies Feb 16 05:22:00 and.. there it goes. Feb 16 05:22:04 [ -e openembedded/_MTN/revision ] || \ Feb 16 05:22:04 ( mtn --db=OE.mtn checkout --branch=org.openembedded.dev \ Feb 16 05:22:04 -r f499733e6db527846e1a48cf70f9862d6b3798ae openembedded ) Feb 16 05:22:04 mtn: misuse: layout of database /home/moko/OE.mtn doesn't match this version of monotone Feb 16 05:22:04 mtn: misuse: wanted schema ae196843d368d042f475e3dadfed11e9d7f9f01e, got 48fd5d84f1e5a949ca093e87e5ac558da6e5956d Feb 16 05:22:06 mtn: misuse: try 'mtn db migrate' to upgrade Feb 16 05:22:08 mtn: misuse: (this is irreversible; you may want to make a backup copy first) Feb 16 05:22:17 wmealing: you need monotone-0.32 Feb 16 05:22:30 ah, my eyes skipped over the version. Feb 16 05:22:36 monotone-0.31-2.fc6 Feb 16 05:22:37 that'll teach me Feb 16 05:22:45 rwhitby: maybe add check that user actually has this version hmm... I'll edit openembedded page Feb 16 05:23:20 aloril: yep, I can add that check. Feb 16 05:25:49 ah, its mentioned there already ( http://www.openembedded.org/wiki/OEandYourDistro (wasn't there when I was reading that)) Feb 16 05:28:10 aloril: before you upgrade, can you try something for me? Feb 16 05:29:41 rwhitby: upgrade what? Feb 16 05:29:57 * rwhitby wonders how to easily check ">= 0.32" when comparing version numbers in bash Feb 16 05:30:05 aloril: before you install monotone 0.32 Feb 16 05:30:22 oh, wmealing instead Feb 16 05:30:22 rwhitby: did that yesterday as instructions said ;-) Feb 16 05:30:32 sure Feb 16 05:30:33 wmealing: have you upgraded monotone yet? Feb 16 05:30:35 no Feb 16 05:30:38 i'm rebuilding the rpm as we speak Feb 16 05:30:56 what does "mtn --db OE.mtn db version" report when you're running 0.31 on a 0.32 database? Feb 16 05:31:42 ]# mtn --db OE.mtn db version Feb 16 05:31:42 database schema version: 48fd5d84f1e5a949ca093e87e5ac558da6e5956d Feb 16 05:31:49 # rpm -q monotone Feb 16 05:31:49 monotone-0.31-2.fc6 Feb 16 05:32:50 wmealing: what does "mtn --version" say? Feb 16 05:33:14 # mtn --version Feb 16 05:33:14 monotone 0.31 (base revision: unknown) Feb 16 05:33:19 wmealing: so it doesn't report an error? Feb 16 05:33:23 mtn --version Feb 16 05:33:23 monotone 0.32 (base revision: 3f0fa5c1d232d37d47f6436fe74919dd3cd003b1) Feb 16 05:33:26 the -2 are just build version patches. Feb 16 05:33:40 ie, to make sure it puts it in the right place.. and set selinux permissions. Feb 16 05:35:28 is that all ? Feb 16 05:35:55 * aloril thinks wikipedia has passed rate of 1 edit/s Feb 16 05:36:02 wmealing: yeah, there's no easy way to check then, apart from comparing version numbers in shell. Feb 16 05:36:07 * wmealing nods Feb 16 05:37:07 If I can think of an easy way in the shell to test the string "0.31" to see if it's equal to or larger than "0.32", then I'll add the check. Feb 16 05:37:34 not in a cross distro way. Feb 16 05:38:11 * wmealing ponders why monotone depends on emacs.. is that some sick joke. Feb 16 05:38:59 * wmealing ducks Feb 16 05:40:38 wmealing: it's just preparing for when emacs becomes your base OS ... Feb 16 05:41:19 will buying a developer model as soon as it comes out help the cause? even if I am so overloaded with work that all I can do is basically be a user? Feb 16 05:41:37 well.. you can test for it being equal to 0.31 (which is incomplete test, but might still catch most cases where monotone is too old) ? Feb 16 05:43:26 rwhitby: does this help? http://archives.devshed.com/forums/unix-linux-135/comparing-decimals-in-bash-372739.html Feb 16 05:45:32 rwhitby: or here is a function to compare real numbers in bash that is mentioned in the first link http://tinyurl.com/hmcz Feb 16 05:48:17 ooh - looks like I might be able to do it in an awk one-liner (since I was going to use awk to get the number from the "mtn --version" output anyway) Feb 16 05:48:39 mispelled your nick.. sorry. Feb 16 05:51:28 weez: if you can file bug reports, then it helps development Feb 16 05:52:18 being outside FIC don't have idea about sales numbers and their meaning, etc.. though good Phase-2 sales seems to obvious good thing Feb 16 05:54:35 hmm - I just realised that I don't want to test the monotone version in MokoMakefile, cause I will be running it with monotone 0.31 Feb 16 05:54:58 (If you get the OE database from nslu2-linux.org, it is an 0.27 db version and can be upgraded to 0.31) Feb 16 05:56:04 the network protocol is compatible from 0.27 upwards - it's just that OE decided to distributed a pre-built 0.32 database (most recent version) instead of a 0.27 database (earliest version that still is network protocol compatible). Both valid choices. Feb 16 06:04:44 hmm gizmodo article has 417 digs, while http://www.openmoko.org/ has only 14 digs.. Feb 16 06:06:28 MokoMakefile now has a 'make check-makefile' to see if you've got the latest and what has changed. Feb 16 06:06:59 * aloril wonders if first real 'screen shot' of Neo1973 will become from some Phase-0 developer Feb 16 06:11:07 aloril: have you seen LaF0rge's photos? Feb 16 06:13:01 Hi @ll Feb 16 06:14:11 rwhitby: ah, yeah, forgot that one Feb 16 06:14:31 Phase_-1 dev photo ;-) Feb 16 06:15:05 jh|home: still building? Feb 16 06:16:47 rwhitby: I can see why Sean is not powering it on, that screen shot is different from mockups ;-) Feb 16 06:17:14 where are they? Feb 16 06:17:29 http://people.openmoko.org/laforge/photos/gta01bv2_omoko/ Feb 16 06:17:52 (not recommended for dial-up) Feb 16 06:19:51 cool Feb 16 06:20:41 very cool Feb 16 06:20:56 heh, the guy in http://crunchgear.com/2007/02/15/openmokos-open-source-mobile-os/ is holding it upside down Feb 16 06:23:31 rwhitby: ooh, not seen those pictures, I just remember something much older and plain looking (don't recall where) Feb 16 06:24:09 counter Feb 16 06:24:09 P0: a week, 6 days 05:02:31 (7.210 - 13.210 days); P1: 29.210 - 44.210; P2: 197.210 - 227.210 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (340) Feb 16 06:24:50 aloril, do we need to pre-order the phase 1 phone? Feb 16 06:25:52 rd_: I don't think so (and there is no preorder page yet of course) Feb 16 06:26:17 rd_: I think you can buy phase-1 phone any time between P1 and P2 Feb 16 06:31:03 hi *, which GSM/GPRS modem TI used in Neo1973 ? Feb 16 06:31:22 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware Feb 16 06:31:26 i found it connect to S3C2410 UART1 Feb 16 06:31:57 aloril: i'm reading it, but i can't get series of this modem ? Feb 16 06:32:33 hey koen Feb 16 06:33:25 hey rwhitby Feb 16 06:35:10 koen: did bitbake 1.6 trunk recently get a change where SRCDATE is now used for svn checkouts? Feb 16 06:36:40 aloril: how do i buy this phone and debug board ? Feb 16 06:36:48 counter? Feb 16 06:36:48 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 6 days 04:49:52 (7.201 - 13.201 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, a week, 6 days (29.201 - 44.201 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, a week, 6 days (197.201 - 227.201 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (341) Feb 16 06:37:43 nm: see topic Feb 16 06:38:36 okie, thx Feb 16 06:39:30 gah, my built failed. Feb 16 06:40:32 my build rather. Feb 16 06:45:19 very cool, this is great project !!! Feb 16 06:45:49 rwhitby: iirc yes Feb 16 06:46:00 rwhitby: bitbake 1.6.4 had changes to fix the svn fetcher Feb 16 06:46:17 rwhitby: but I use only bitbake trunk (e.g. 1.7.x) Feb 16 06:47:26 looks like the SRCDATE in openmoko/trunk/oe/conf/site.conf has a SRCDATE in it, and bitbake 1.6.4 is picking that up and using it when checking out the kernel patches in gta01-kernel-2.6 Feb 16 06:47:42 hmm - make that bitbake 1.6.5 Feb 16 06:48:49 if anyone has problems checking out the kernel patches from svn when building, this may be the cause. I worked around it by just adding a rev=1004 to the SRC_URI entry. Feb 16 06:50:56 rwhitby, your script is cool .. but does it assume to use the normal local.conf coming with oe ? Feb 16 06:51:42 rob_w: my script codifies the http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch page, including the local.conf file that the instructions on that page creates. Feb 16 06:51:54 s/script/Makefile/ Feb 16 06:51:54 rwhitby meant: rob_w: my Makefile codifies the http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch page, including the local.conf file that the instructions on that page creates. Feb 16 06:52:41 I wasn't aware of local.conf file that comes with OE. local.conf.sample, yes, but no local.conf ... Feb 16 06:52:52 yeah i meant the sample .. Feb 16 06:53:16 so according to this , those mentioned 4 lines are all i need as local.conf .. Feb 16 06:53:47 so maybe my old local.conf give me my current problems .. thanks for your help Feb 16 06:53:47 rob_w: the MokoMakefile doesn't change the operation of bitbake or OE at all. so you set up your local.conf as normal in OE. Feb 16 06:55:00 hmm what i dont understand is the difference between BBPATH and BBFILES .. my BBPATH is setup to include openmoko in its wanted order ,.. but my old local.conf BBFILES only points to org.openembedded.org/packages/*/*.bb Feb 16 06:55:18 that would be a problem I think Feb 16 06:56:01 yeah i also think so .. i will give your script priority . thanks Feb 16 06:56:19 maybe BBFILES is deprecated already Feb 16 06:56:45 rob_w: it's a *makefile*, not a script :-) Feb 16 06:56:58 very different beasts Feb 16 06:57:23 well,, still beasts anyway Feb 16 06:58:00 using a script instead of a Makefile is like using Linksys's source tree instead of using OpenEmbedded ... Feb 16 06:58:24 just so .... primitive. Feb 16 06:59:00 hehe, the "makefile" is quite cool as it also handles all updates n stuff , thats great Feb 16 06:59:49 i like people that provide rounded work to the community .. may tend to only stiff info`s coming from their own cases Feb 16 07:00:06 s/may/many Feb 16 07:00:55 so today is the day the phase0 units leave Taiwan ?? Feb 16 07:01:18 not that I'm aware of ... Feb 16 07:01:38 oh i thought the annouce said friday .. letme read it again Feb 16 07:02:15 Hmm - pity my build just fell over on the kernel. Ah well, that's the good thing about the MokoMakefile - someone else will have the same error and fix it for me. Feb 16 07:03:16 * rwhitby heads home from work. Feb 16 07:03:17 ".... phase 0 phones out around the end of this month." Feb 16 07:05:07 is there any chance someone has monotone .32 built for FC6 handy ? Feb 16 07:05:32 venge.net/monotone Feb 16 07:05:55 ftp://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/BLAG/linux/60000/en/os/i386/BLAG/RPMS.TESTING/monotone-0.32-0blag.fc6.i386.rpm ftp://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/BLAG/linux/60000/en/os/i386/BLAG/RPMS.TESTING/bitbake-1.6.2-0blag.fc6.noarch.rpm Feb 16 07:06:09 sweet ! thanks aloril Feb 16 07:06:20 (links here from 2 days ago or so) Feb 16 07:07:11 koen, suses rpms dont build on FC6 Feb 16 07:07:31 where did I say you had to use suse RPMs? Feb 16 07:07:57 http://venge.net/monotone/downloads/mtn-0.32-linux-x86.bz2 Feb 16 07:08:17 NOTE: package linux-gta01-2.6.20-moko7-r1: task do_build: completed Feb 16 07:10:01 koen, nice .. Feb 16 07:10:26 koen, is BBFILES deprecated ? Feb 16 07:10:36 rob_w: not that I know off Feb 16 07:11:03 will it interfere with the way openmoko is included ? ( BBPATH priority ? ) Feb 16 07:12:33 * koen doesn't use the FIC bbcollection Feb 16 07:12:54 oh i see Feb 16 07:12:54 maybe stupid question, but is the neo already available for sale ? Feb 16 07:13:09 * hrw is out of topic totally Feb 16 07:13:16 fix--: no Feb 16 07:13:27 hrw: yes, you're in the channel, not the topic :) Feb 16 07:13:29 koen, also not for devs? Feb 16 07:13:34 fix--: correct Feb 16 07:13:36 coutner Feb 16 07:13:40 counter Feb 16 07:13:40 P0: a week, 6 days 04:13:01 (7.176 - 13.176 days); P1: 29.176 - 44.176; P2: 197.176 - 227.176 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (342) Feb 16 07:13:48 koen, how do you work out openmoko ? Feb 16 07:14:02 rob_w: everything I need is in oe .dev Feb 16 07:14:32 kOEn like someone told to mark that koen use OE only Feb 16 07:14:58 that would be also my preffered way to work Feb 16 07:28:40 * koen looks at http://people.openmoko.org/graeme/neo1973-states/ Feb 16 07:31:37 "Is every device on earth with a touch screen now locked in mortal combat with the iPhone?" Feb 16 07:32:13 yes. Feb 16 07:32:17 because apple did it first Feb 16 07:32:19 dont you knokw ? Feb 16 07:32:52 by this time next year, ever device with an LCD will be considered a knock off. Feb 16 07:39:03 of course those who know, know that Neo1973 was announced first ;-) Feb 16 07:39:25 fix--: Feb 16 07:39:26 counter? Feb 16 07:39:26 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 6 days 03:47:14 (7.158 - 13.158 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, a week, 6 days (29.158 - 44.158 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, a week, 6 days (197.158 - 227.158 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (343) Feb 16 07:41:26 just out of interest, there is going to be a program for this which.. updates/gets new software right ? Feb 16 07:41:31 like a system updater ? Feb 16 07:43:29 yes Feb 16 07:54:36 just read the press release guys -- very excited! Feb 16 07:55:13 its 330 where im at... i can't sleep... and after reading that press release, I dont think im gonna be able to sleep :) Feb 16 08:02:26 PasqualeBF_: if you haven't yet looked, you might want to look at http://www.openmoko.org/ Feb 16 08:02:52 still, missing wifi due to binary driver is quite bad -.- Feb 16 08:03:17 looks like the site has been updated since ive last checked -- very nice Feb 16 08:03:57 would be ass kicking if you guys were taking preorders -- i would already have my cc number typed in Feb 16 08:08:11 any urls to a bunch of snapshots? Feb 16 08:47:47 so far everybody has marked black/silver: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Buying_Interest_List Feb 16 08:47:58 aloril: Just noticed that Feb 16 08:48:17 Almost want to say white/orange just because of that ;) Feb 16 08:48:34 CM: hehe Feb 16 08:49:17 * hrw does not fit to that page Feb 16 08:49:56 hrw: ;-) (there is already one phase-0 entry there ;-) Feb 16 08:49:57 * koen conquers uboot Feb 16 08:50:06 koen: still fighting? Feb 16 08:50:08 * koen saves the uboot-mkimage binary somewhere safe Feb 16 08:50:14 :P Feb 16 08:50:14 hrw: I built and oabi gcc-cross Feb 16 08:50:28 * koen heads towards the DSP lecture Feb 16 08:50:30 later all Feb 16 08:51:09 this phone is going to be the center point between my carpc and its devices. Feb 16 08:51:33 koen, later Feb 16 08:51:52 i go for black/silver too :) Feb 16 08:52:07 yee, blacksilver is the way to go. Feb 16 08:53:07 I case there's any gentoo users here. Updated bitbake ebuild: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167168 Feb 16 08:55:09 CM, k Feb 16 08:55:24 CM: bitbake 1.6.4 has a bug - 1.6.6 today/tomorrow Feb 16 08:56:04 hmm, how can I get qemu to run openmoko Feb 16 08:56:11 good morning guys Feb 16 08:56:16 g morning. Feb 16 08:56:22 hi all good morning Feb 16 08:56:41 I need info on how the GSM protocol stack look like when I am sending a SMS Feb 16 08:58:14 sureshkumar, check this http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gsmd Feb 16 08:58:42 If we see as an ISO model, we have Application Layer ==> Transport Layer ==> network Layer ==> Data Link Layer ==> Physical layer ==> Air interface (Network). Can any one tell me or guide to some link where we get info like what are the protocols that are used at different levels Feb 16 09:00:56 Hi rd_, what is there in that link Feb 16 09:01:21 I am unable to see any thing about GSM. Its all about how to use gsmd module in OpenMoko Feb 16 09:01:38 Hi all, is any one there? Feb 16 09:01:57 I need some help regarding the GSM protocols and the ones that are used for messaging Feb 16 09:04:40 is it my understanding that applications such as Web Browser, IM, etc -- will be with phase 2 release? Feb 16 09:04:55 does anyone know how to get openmoko running on qemu? Feb 16 09:05:42 sureshkumar, umm, its using AT commands to send/receive sms Feb 16 09:05:57 check gsmd source code under openmoko svn Feb 16 09:06:42 hrw|gone: Thanks, I'll update that bug Feb 16 09:06:43 and check thos spec http://eksente.v-lo.krakow.pl/~sw/GSM/ Feb 16 09:07:16 PasqualeBF_: its Linux, so anything that works fine on those resources and VGA screen should be OK ;-) Feb 16 09:07:58 heh, true :) almost forgot for a moment :) Feb 16 09:08:28 i was looking at the applications wiki -- seems that some of the applications have been divided into phases Feb 16 09:09:36 only thing i am looking forward to is wifi support! as i can see it's in hardware wishlist. :) Feb 16 09:10:35 wifi would be cool -- id manage with a bluetooth link tho. Feb 16 09:10:46 cydork, yeah, wifi is a key feature to me -.- Feb 16 09:11:31 * fluffs has a cup of coffee and says good morning all Feb 16 09:11:31 its a major point on the moko vs iphone list Feb 16 09:12:47 good morning fluffs Feb 16 09:14:30 robtaylor: hey Feb 16 09:16:42 Good Morgaine florian Feb 16 09:16:45 Good Morgaine Flusher Feb 16 09:16:50 Good Morgaine fluffs Feb 16 09:16:53 *grrr* Feb 16 09:17:06 good morning Feb 16 09:17:17 ;o) Feb 16 09:18:03 Elrond: lol? Feb 16 09:18:56 LuitvD - Just logged in and opening up my xterms, hitting more tab then reading. ;) Feb 16 09:19:00 what's a good morgaine? :P Feb 16 09:19:01 wifi? Feb 16 09:19:01 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess Feb 16 09:19:38 aloril: is that a new script? Feb 16 09:20:14 aloril: hmm great! Feb 16 09:20:29 hmm, battery-powered USB hubs? do those exist? Feb 16 09:20:30 it has been here since 2007-02-07 Feb 16 09:20:40 bluetooth? Feb 16 09:20:43 gps? Feb 16 09:20:46 edge? Feb 16 09:20:54 what about those? Feb 16 09:21:00 what other scripts do you have? Feb 16 09:21:29 it actually will answer automatically if some new nick asks about wifi with question mark ;-) Feb 16 09:21:41 maemo wiki has some usb power hub stuff I think Feb 16 09:22:01 and also there might be some googleable stuff for "nokia 770 usb power injector" etc Feb 16 09:22:09 maybe the same concept works here too? Feb 16 09:22:21 well.. there is camera? and counter? but nothing about bluetooth, etc.. those are in product specs Feb 16 09:22:40 tigert: yes, it should Feb 16 09:22:48 yep Feb 16 09:23:04 aloril, so how about agpsd? Feb 16 09:23:12 tihi. charging your neo using your bike's generator ;o) Feb 16 09:23:27 its also binary only, rite? Feb 16 09:23:36 rd_: ah.. yeah, that might merit answer Feb 16 09:23:47 yes, binary only user space daemon Feb 16 09:24:04 Where are the binaries for agpsd? Feb 16 09:24:22 http://thoughtfix.blogspot.com/2006/01/usb-power-injector-2.html < for the not-easily-scared :) Feb 16 09:24:25 aloril, what's the different between bianry kernel driver and daemon? :) Feb 16 09:25:27 http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/CPH420MP.asp < battery powered usb hub Feb 16 09:25:34 anyway, time for lunch, happy hacking Feb 16 09:25:46 aloril, also, the wifi driver could be open source, only firmware is in binary Feb 16 09:25:57 wohoo, qemu runs an ARM image :D Feb 16 09:26:14 now where is the openmoko kernel? :P Feb 16 09:26:22 LuitvD, check wiki :) Feb 16 09:26:30 I need some help regarding the GSM protocols and the ones that are used for messaging Feb 16 09:26:33 would it be possible to use scratchbox for running openmoko btw? Feb 16 09:26:37 If we see as an ISO model, we have Application Layer ==> Transport Layer ==> network Layer ==> Data Link Layer ==> Physical layer ==> Air interface (Network). Can any one tell me or guide to some link where we get info like what are the protocols that are used at different levels Feb 16 09:26:59 sureshkumar, umm, i gave you the answer already -.- Feb 16 09:27:03 rd_: found it somewhere yesterday, the rootfs images + precompiled kernels Feb 16 09:27:17 i just can't remember where :P Feb 16 09:27:30 rd_: kernel module is problematic from GPL license viewpoint, user space is not Feb 16 09:27:50 aloril, umm not really :/ Feb 16 09:28:23 is it the spec that you had asked me to check for Feb 16 09:28:43 sureshkumar, yeah, read those pdf file Feb 16 09:28:54 GSM_07.05.pdf Feb 16 09:29:02 rd_: Harald Welte GPL violations guy thinks so, so its quite unlikely OpenMoko will include binary only kernel modules Feb 16 09:29:16 I didn't understand them. they are communication protocol between layers but I want the protocols at each layer for messaging Feb 16 09:29:39 sureshkumar, its the at commands to communicate with gsm modem Feb 16 09:30:48 rd_: found the images agian :) Feb 16 09:31:02 aloril, there are bunch of wifi drivers, using binary only firmware (load by hotflug) on linux Feb 16 09:31:02 yes Feb 16 09:31:35 LuitvD: link? Feb 16 09:31:49 cydork: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/gta01/deploy/images/ Feb 16 09:31:56 rd_: it needs to be low power too, etc.. Feb 16 09:31:56 s/hotflug/hotplug/ Feb 16 09:31:56 rd_ meant: aloril, there are bunch of wifi drivers, using binary only firmware (load by hotplug) on linux Feb 16 09:32:00 LuitvD: thanks :) Feb 16 09:32:02 rd_: Yes you are right. But I need protocol structure for SMS / MMS to travel from User interface to Air (Network) Feb 16 09:32:08 rd_: situation might have changed by now, but now its too late to change anything Feb 16 09:32:22 All possible protocols that may be used for SMS / MMS Feb 16 09:33:08 someone should get adobe to port Flash Lite to linux also :) Feb 16 09:33:14 sureshkumar, -.- .. i dun get what you meant Feb 16 09:34:00 cydork: going to use it in qemu too? Feb 16 09:34:26 rd_: We've tried to explain to sureshkumar many times Feb 16 09:34:46 CM, i see -/- Feb 16 09:35:24 LuitvD: yep, you have any other links regarding that? :) Feb 16 09:36:50 cydork: nope... not really... Feb 16 09:36:57 couldn't find much on the wiki... Feb 16 09:38:25 BTW: Anyone knows, what's up with Morgaine? Feb 16 09:39:03 Elrond: eh, what is? Feb 16 09:39:06 ~seen Morgaine Feb 16 09:39:21 apt: Awake? Feb 16 09:39:22 morgaine is currently on #openmoko, last said: 'The D-Link DWL-P200 PoE units have never given me any trouble btw, in case anyone's considering one.'. Feb 16 09:39:24 It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. Feb 16 09:39:54 ... cafaine addict? Feb 16 09:40:03 s/cafaine/caffeine/ Feb 16 09:40:04 LuitvD meant: ... caffeine addict? Feb 16 09:40:07 who's not Feb 16 09:40:12 ^^ Feb 16 09:43:02 <-- not caffeine addict Feb 16 09:43:17 boo Feb 16 09:43:29 cydork: anything running yet? :P Feb 16 09:45:47 LuitvD: not tried yet.. just googling atm :P Feb 16 09:46:39 cydork: it's not working for me yet... Feb 16 09:50:01 btw, its going to be lunar new year in the next 6:30mins here :) Feb 16 09:51:27 aloril, hope that wifi would be in the next version of openmoko :) Feb 16 09:52:54 mornin Feb 16 09:55:59 <_-InFeRnO-_> ne1 knows when will GPRS be usable in gsmd Feb 16 09:56:27 <_-InFeRnO-_> and can it receive SMS? Feb 16 09:56:31 LuitvD, I saw in my log your comment on 160 bytes; no, SMS are 140 bytes; they often use 7-bit charsets, though, yielding 160 characters Feb 16 09:56:59 :P Feb 16 09:57:06 mjr: how odd... Feb 16 09:57:56 mjr: though there is some extra information sent with that sms message... Feb 16 09:58:00 like... ttl... Feb 16 09:58:35 Yep. Headers. I think, they're binary. Feb 16 10:00:03 yeap, up to 160 characters, 7 bit alphabet Feb 16 10:03:40 <_-InFeRnO-_> bump Feb 16 10:11:18 sorry for the possibly dumb question: do I need a phone to test openmoko U/I stuff (no need for the GSM hardware) or is there something like a "virtual framebuffer device" to run stuff on a normal PC even without the phone hardware? Feb 16 10:11:31 _-InFeRnO-_: I haven't heard anything about it yet, but Harald Welte said on his blog on wednesday "I'll now look into getting the CPU clock to 266MHz (we've had some issues with this) and finally, after all, TS07.10 multiplex and gsmd infrastructure, for which I consistently haven't found time until now." Feb 16 10:12:04 PsychoChicken: You can use Xoo/Xephyr on your pc Feb 16 10:12:26 thanks for the pointer. googling for those right now... Feb 16 10:12:30 PsychoChicken: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC Feb 16 10:12:48 CM beats google! Feb 16 10:13:20 PsychoChicken: That wiki isn't complete by any means, but it's a good place to look around :) Feb 16 10:14:23 or, I'll follow the instructions and stretch my rusty wiki-editing skills at the same time ;-) Feb 16 10:14:37 Please do :) Feb 16 10:16:33 meh, I just want to run this on qemu... Feb 16 10:16:47 does anyone have a precompiled qemu-kernel lying around? Feb 16 10:19:07 I'm using gcc-4.1.2 on 64 bit, so I can't even compile qemu :/ Feb 16 10:19:39 CM: I'm running 64-bit, and qemu is working just fine... Feb 16 10:19:47 though I don't know my gcc version Feb 16 10:20:01 It only compiles with 3.x Feb 16 10:20:13 CM: what distro are you running? Feb 16 10:20:27 But apparently they're working on getting gcc4.x working Feb 16 10:20:29 gentoo Feb 16 10:20:43 hmm... Feb 16 10:20:52 <_-InFeRnO-_> is gsmd usable with a regular gsm modem or only with Calypso? Feb 16 10:21:17 CM: I simply downloaded the fedora rpm packages... doesn't gentoo have any qemu packages? Feb 16 10:21:38 LuitvD, I lost 5€s yesterday :/ ;) Feb 16 10:22:09 LuitvD: They do, of course, and also support having multiple gcc versions. So basically I'm just being lazy.. ;) Feb 16 10:22:11 denis^da: lol, thought you'd lose 2,5€ at max :P Feb 16 10:22:26 _-InFeRnO-_, not sure, but i gess it would be usable with regualr gsm modem Feb 16 10:22:31 _-InFeRnO-_: it will support vendor specific modules. Feb 16 10:22:36 LuitvD, yeah I couldn't resist buying one more packet of chips Feb 16 10:22:42 lol Feb 16 10:22:56 <_-InFeRnO-_> ok. is a "generic" module planned? Feb 16 10:23:00 I have it running on a HTC Magician with small modifications, and I think it works on HTC Universal too, already. Feb 16 10:23:02 denis^da: that is indeed a very tempting thing... trying again :P Feb 16 10:23:33 pH5: did you compile the kernel images yourself? Feb 16 10:23:46 LuitvD, yeah but it is not good :D, it was so frustrating so I had to install Linux on my Palm TX in order to get up again :D http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7669/02lf4.png Feb 16 10:24:03 according to http://git.altlinux.ru/people/kas/packages/?p=qemu.git we build qemu with gcc-4 Feb 16 10:24:06 denis^da: :) Feb 16 10:24:25 as well as mandriva, it seems Feb 16 10:24:58 thresh: I'll look at it :) Feb 16 10:25:47 denis^da: what kind of cpu does it have? arm or Xscale? Feb 16 10:26:07 LuitvD: I didn't compile the neo kernel images yet. Until I get one, I'm trying to get the userspace apps to run on my device. Feb 16 10:26:12 Xscale @ LuitvD Feb 16 10:26:19 <_-InFeRnO-_> isn't xscale arm? Feb 16 10:26:27 _-InFeRnO-_: nope Feb 16 10:26:40 dont know I'm really a noob concerning these things :D Feb 16 10:26:47 _-InFeRnO-_: xscale is an intel (now marvel) chip Feb 16 10:26:57 <_-InFeRnO-_> hm Feb 16 10:26:58 and arm is ... universal? Feb 16 10:26:59 ...no? at least here on palm, xscale has arm architecture Feb 16 10:27:09 <_-InFeRnO-_> i thought it's a variant of ARM Feb 16 10:27:12 pxa27x is xscale is an armv5te chip. Feb 16 10:27:25 thresh: it's built on, but not completely compatible, IIRC Feb 16 10:27:36 <_-InFeRnO-_> wikipedia says it's ARM Feb 16 10:27:39 ah Feb 16 10:27:45 okay... then I've said nothing... Feb 16 10:28:20 <_-InFeRnO-_> np Feb 16 10:28:27 <_-InFeRnO-_> i have to gp Feb 16 10:28:28 <_-InFeRnO-_> go Feb 16 10:28:29 <_-InFeRnO-_> bye Feb 16 10:28:33 XScale is ARM derivative Feb 16 10:28:43 i belive they synced at armv5te Feb 16 10:30:03 rd_: v2 probably has wifi Feb 16 10:30:22 counter? Feb 16 10:30:22 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 6 days 00:56:17 (7.039 - 13.039 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, a week, 6 days (29.039 - 44.039 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, a week, 6 days (197.039 - 227.039 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (344) Feb 16 10:30:29 aloril, kool :) Feb 16 10:30:31 lol, the GP2X has an ARM920T too :) Feb 16 10:30:57 aloril: which version of mobile can i get on P2 ? Feb 16 10:31:10 LuitvD: yes, XScale is trademark by Intel Feb 16 10:33:39 LuitvD: Intel XScale using 80200/IOP310/IOP315 as core , and ARM920T is core of ARM9TDMI Feb 16 10:33:49 the next openmoko device should have the OMAPV2350 :P Feb 16 10:35:35 LuitvD: hehe cool, but i think price will be increase Feb 16 10:36:10 nm: especially because of the patent royalties on HSDPA and EDGE Feb 16 10:36:40 the chip itself isn't that expensive... selling the chip is expensive Feb 16 10:39:36 LuitvD: yes, of course :-) Feb 16 10:39:40 how do I convert an .ext2.gz to an .img file? Feb 16 10:40:47 I want openmoko's rootfs to be an .img file... Feb 16 10:42:25 nm: Phase-2 is probably a bit modified version of Phase-1 phone (both I guess can be called v1) Feb 16 10:43:53 v2 will be completely new device with *much* faster CPU: what it contains will be announced at September like v1 was announced last year Feb 16 10:44:04 * rwhitby gets mokomakefile.projects.openmoko.org approved. Feb 16 10:44:55 aloril2: okie thx guy Feb 16 10:45:04 rwhitby: btw, the wiki said that 1 out of 1 developer liked the makefile. You can add me to that list ;) (although I haven't finnished compiling yet) Feb 16 10:45:51 ozamosi: ok, but I need another testimonial ;-) Feb 16 10:46:12 let me know if it gets to the end. Feb 16 10:46:23 I will! :) Feb 16 10:46:56 my build fell over when building the kernel :-( Feb 16 10:47:28 I'm waiting to see if it's just me, or if it's repeatable Feb 16 10:48:49 Hm... I think it did that a few times yesterday, but I got past that problem after being more stubborn than the source. Feb 16 10:49:08 LaF0rge, koen, mickey|zzZZzz: I have added you all as admins for MokoMakefile, in the remote chance in the future that there is a build problem that needs fixing quickly and I am not available. Feb 16 10:49:45 if any of you would prefer to be removed, just let me know. Feb 16 10:52:42 How long would it take the neo to build openmoko? :) Feb 16 10:53:59 well, the build tree won't fit on a 2GB uSD card for a start ... Feb 16 10:54:08 Right :) Feb 16 10:54:45 rwhitby: really? rm_work helps Feb 16 10:55:22 yeah, I wonder what the combined size of mtn database and downloads is though ... Feb 16 10:58:31 Hmm - git on Centos 4.4 seems not be compatible with building uboot Feb 16 10:59:43 hi there Feb 16 11:05:01 FYI to anyone trying to build on RHEL or CentOS - the version of Git does not support the '-n' switch which is used by the bitbake git fetcher. Feb 16 11:05:23 (so building of uboot will fail on RHEL and CentOS) Feb 16 11:25:24 rwhitby: is building on RHEL similar to building on FC6? Feb 16 11:26:13 you're saying it doesn't work on RHEL, but does it work on FC6? that you know of? Feb 16 11:26:29 LuitvD: dunno. depends on the version of git in FC6 - which is likely to be more recent than RHEL or CentOS Feb 16 11:26:51 rwhitby: which git version do I need? Feb 16 11:26:54 rwhitby: Thanks for a nice "script"! ;) Feb 16 11:27:08 CM: haha Feb 16 11:27:18 Failed on svn: Unable to find repository location for 'http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches' in revision 11 though Feb 16 11:27:28 rwhitby: is git 1.4.4.2 working? Feb 16 11:27:35 CM: I got that too. that's where my build fails. Feb 16 11:27:50 Ok, good I'm not alone :) Feb 16 11:28:11 CM: I believe that the latest bitbake 1.6.x has some SRCDATE and svn fetcher fixes, which may be pulling the wrong version of those patches. Feb 16 11:28:31 you need to add a 'rev=XXXX' to the end, and then find the correct value of 'XXXX'. Feb 16 11:28:34 rwhitby: zecke is doing 1.6.6 now Feb 16 11:28:53 On #oe: 13:01 1.6.6 of BitBake released Feb 16 11:28:59 CM: I think it was a correct bug fix which has caused the different behaviour now. Feb 16 11:29:11 Ah, ok Feb 16 11:29:13 (i.e. I suspect it was broken before, which masked this problem) Feb 16 11:29:38 rwhitby: trunk (1.7.x) doesn't have any problems Feb 16 11:30:08 koen: is trunk stable enough for MokoMakefile use? if I set a specific rev perhaps? Feb 16 11:30:21 it has been stable enough for me Feb 16 11:30:40 * koen <- heavy bitbake user Feb 16 11:31:10 hmm, can anyone find me/write a n00b guide to building openmoko from svn? :P Feb 16 11:31:18 koen: What's the major difference compared to the 1.6.x? Feb 16 11:31:31 koen: you haven't attempted reproducing the FIC build, right? you went straight to OE-only builds? Feb 16 11:31:37 LuitvD: setup OE, 'bitbake openmoko-image' and you're done Feb 16 11:31:45 rwhitby: yes, OE-only builds Feb 16 11:31:49 koen: nod Feb 16 11:31:55 koen: like 'setup OE' is easy :P Feb 16 11:32:00 LuitvD: it is Feb 16 11:32:11 koen: okay :P Feb 16 11:32:16 I will try... Feb 16 11:32:23 and I will fail :P Feb 16 11:32:23 koen: what's the svn url for bitbake trunk? I tried svn://svn.berlios.de/bitbake/trunk with no success. Feb 16 11:32:40 get bitbake, monotone, openembedded-essential, download snapshot, extract, copy script, start building Feb 16 11:33:03 URL: svn://svn.berlios.de/bitbake/trunk/bitbake Feb 16 11:33:03 Repository Root: svn://svn.berlios.de/bitbake Feb 16 11:33:07 according to svn info Feb 16 11:33:16 aha, another bitbake on the end. thx. Feb 16 11:35:30 heh - koen, is there a way to turn of the warning and 5 second delay on bitbake trunk execution? Feb 16 11:35:37 s/of/off/ Feb 16 11:35:38 rwhitby meant: heh - koen, is there a way to turn off the warning and 5 second delay on bitbake trunk execution? Feb 16 11:35:38 sure Feb 16 11:36:12 rwhitby: http://rafb.net/p/nbN60e91.html Feb 16 11:36:31 heh Feb 16 11:36:47 I was hoping there was a cmd line option :-) Feb 16 11:37:29 rwhitby: patch -p0 < `curl http://rafb.net/p/nbN60e91.txt` ? Feb 16 11:37:35 rwhitby: I'm disappointed - your blog photo is so not like the hw-hacker stereotype ;) Feb 16 11:37:49 Stephmw: sorry to disappoint. Feb 16 11:38:40 Stephmw: does this help the image: http://www.nslu2-linux.org/gallery/slug-central ? Feb 16 11:39:25 Hmm - bitbake 1.7 doesn't parse the FIC OE metadata :-( Feb 16 11:40:07 well, to be more accurate, it parses it, but the parse produces a different result which doesn't attempt a build. Feb 16 11:40:37 ERROR: No providers of runtime build target libc6-dev (for ['/home/moko/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb']) Feb 16 11:41:12 rwhitby: a little I guess Feb 16 11:41:40 Stephmw: that photo is also from 10 years ago. Feb 16 11:42:01 aha, yes, I can see it's a crop from the wedding pic Feb 16 11:42:10 no wonder you spruced up Feb 16 11:45:25 ok, so back to bitbake 1.6 and trying to find the correct svn rev for the kernel patches. Feb 16 11:45:48 zecke: what version of bitbake would FIC have been using? Feb 16 11:46:12 rwhitby: mickeyl most likely used the 1.6.2 release Feb 16 11:47:05 gw280: yo Feb 16 11:47:06 rwhitby: what errors do you see? We messed up the packaging of 1.6.4 (tarball) badly but besides that the svn branch has been used some time Feb 16 11:48:00 zecke: is it true that 1.6.2 would have ignored SRCDATE, but current 1.6 uses it for svn checkouts? Feb 16 11:48:47 zecke: Stephmw pasted the error above Feb 16 11:49:10 svn: Unable to find repository location for 'http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches' in revision 11 Feb 16 11:49:21 revision 11 is not likely to be the correct revision Feb 16 11:49:46 and I think it's the SRCDATE in openmoko/trunk/oe/conf/site.conf which is causing that. Feb 16 11:50:05 rwhitby: what bitbake file is used? (got a websvn url for me?) Feb 16 11:50:28 svn://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/kernel;module=patches;proto=http Feb 16 11:50:37 that's the SRC_URI line Feb 16 11:50:51 I'm using bitbake 1.6 head Feb 16 11:51:16 .bb coming up ... Feb 16 11:51:38 Elrond+CM: busy with other things atm, but skimming the channel occasionally when I can. How's it going? Feb 16 11:51:45 rwhitby, I'h getting the same error Feb 16 11:51:52 right, acks from all my patches Feb 16 11:52:06 zecke: http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.17.14.bb?rev=1010&view=markup Feb 16 11:52:29 2.6.17? Feb 16 11:52:38 * koen looks at the 2.6.20 gat01 kernel Feb 16 11:52:59 koen: 2.6.17.14 is atleast known as working one. Feb 16 11:53:16 hrw: according to LaF0rge 2.6.20 works as well Feb 16 11:53:17 * fluffs smiles a contented tea filled smile Feb 16 11:53:28 yes, that is what FIC builds in the svn rev they recommend in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch Feb 16 11:53:38 the goal here is to reproduce the build on that page. Feb 16 11:53:54 koen: then ok. Feb 16 11:53:55 hrw: http://svnweb.openmoko.org/?rev=1011&view=rev Feb 16 11:53:59 (different goal in #oe :-)) Feb 16 11:54:07 anyone know who is responsible for http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/?action=list&id=1248 Feb 16 11:54:40 robtaylor: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch contains the same braindead svn shim Feb 16 11:54:51 koen: Yes, I know that they are using 2.6.20 now. Feb 16 11:55:13 rwhitby: FIC also recommends replacing your svn binary Feb 16 11:55:14 yay, got quilt to apply finally Feb 16 11:55:17 I was hoping to be able to reproduce the documented build from the FIC wiki before moving svn and OE versions forward. Feb 16 11:55:28 rwhitby: so I take those instructions cum grano salis Feb 16 11:55:34 koen: red herring, ignored. Feb 16 11:55:51 koen: I still don't really get OE :P Feb 16 11:56:11 koen: if I wanted to discuss current OE openmoko build, I'd be in #oe :-) Feb 16 11:56:40 but it does look like trying latest svn is worth a shot at this point. Feb 16 11:58:27 unless someone else has actually got the instructions at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch to build a complete image and can see why the MokoMakefile it consistently failing the same way for everyone. Feb 16 11:58:41 rwhitby: SRCDATE is honored, but it was honored in bitbake-1.6.2 as well (at least it looks like this) Feb 16 11:58:42 hrw: are those instructions known to be good? Feb 16 11:59:17 zecke: ok, thanks. will dig deeper then. Feb 16 11:59:51 * koen is hitting an annoying ipkg bug Feb 16 12:00:20 rwhitby: feel free to use -vvv to see the executed svn command Feb 16 12:01:54 ok, that's really weird. Feb 16 12:02:32 Stephmw: can you do "source setup-env ; cd build ; bitbake -vvv -b ../oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.17.14.bb and see what it does? Feb 16 12:03:21 that time for me it checked out rev 1018 (which fails to apply cleanly) Feb 16 12:05:49 Hmm - that svnnow stuff is irritating ... Feb 16 12:06:08 rwhitby: yes it is Feb 16 12:06:21 I'm sure there was a good reason for it. Feb 16 12:06:24 koen: fixed :) Feb 16 12:06:36 I understand with openmoko-core would use that, but not why mere mortals would want it Feb 16 12:07:10 s/with/why/ Feb 16 12:07:14 koen meant: I understand why openmoko-core would use that, but not why mere mortals would want it Feb 16 12:12:33 Has there been any report of anyone reproducing the FIC-documented build? Feb 16 12:13:33 what fs type would an initrd.img normally be? Feb 16 12:14:11 Cause unless anyone can see where the MokoMakefile fails to reproduce the instructions faithfully, I'm doubtful that the documented build is reproducable. I hope someone can see the error I must have made in the Makefile ... Feb 16 12:17:49 rwhitby: where can I view that makefile? :P Feb 16 12:18:04 LuitvD: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Feb 16 12:19:10 zecke: bitbake 1.6.7 doesn't print out the svn command when invoked with -v -v -v Feb 16 12:20:07 rwhitby: thanks, I'll take a look ... (good thing the OE instructions are linked to :) ) Feb 16 12:20:09 rwhitby: bad tool that is, try -DDD instead Feb 16 12:21:11 aha, that's why it got something the second time, cause it just does an svn update. Cleaning downloads/svn and trying again Feb 16 12:22:39 zecke: DEBUG: Running /usr/bin/env svn co -r {20060814} http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches patches Feb 16 12:22:58 which results in svn: Unable to find repository location for 'http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches' in revision 11 Feb 16 12:23:07 wtf... does the build-env from openmoko really takes 7gb?? Feb 16 12:27:38 rwhitby: that makefile does do a lot i don't understand :P Feb 16 12:28:05 (and it's only downloading from the svn as of now :P Feb 16 12:28:20 rwhitby: that means that dir/repo didn't exist at 20060814 Feb 16 12:28:30 rwhitby: the error message is a bit misleading Feb 16 12:29:04 koen: yeah, which is what led me down the path of suspecting SRCDATE was ignored in earlier 1.6.x bitbake versions, but apparently now. Feb 16 12:29:07 s/now/not/ Feb 16 12:29:08 rwhitby meant: koen: yeah, which is what led me down the path of suspecting SRCDATE was ignored in earlier 1.6.x bitbake versions, but apparently not. Feb 16 12:29:44 ok, the patches from svn rev 1004 (the documented good version) do not apply cleanly. Feb 16 12:31:33 asoc.patch fails to apply Feb 16 12:31:45 s/documented good/documented/ Feb 16 12:32:07 can the openmoko software be installed on any other devices than the neo= Feb 16 12:32:09 ? Feb 16 12:32:22 I read somewhere that it could run on ipaQ Feb 16 12:32:30 but which models? Feb 16 12:32:42 kimuSan^: ipaq hx4700, htc magician and htc universal already ran parts of it. Feb 16 12:32:47 koen: perhaps :-) Feb 16 12:33:42 pH5: neat. Feb 16 12:33:58 then I just need to get digging on my HTC trinity :-) Feb 16 12:36:12 koen: one first assumes that it's either a documentation error or an error in my Makefile. Feb 16 12:36:41 * rwhitby examines the revision history of asoc.patch to try and find the correct svn rev for the kernel patches Feb 16 12:36:53 openmoko running on the pc yet? Feb 16 12:37:01 rwhitby: openmoko-dates didn't build because SRCDATE_eds-dbus was set too early Feb 16 12:37:19 rwhitby: which means some developers have local diffs we don't know about Feb 16 12:37:37 ooh - there is branches/src/target/kernel/patches/2.6.17.4 created in rev 1003 .. Feb 16 12:38:02 rwhitby: does that makefile of yours always create 300+ MB of data? :P Feb 16 12:38:22 LuitvD: it's likely to create up to 7GB. Feb 16 12:38:33 rwhitby: lol, nice Feb 16 12:38:51 The makefile creates only a few hundred bytes. It's the other stuff which creates all the data ... Feb 16 12:39:09 rwhitby: and the output is a 64MB max rootfs image? Feb 16 12:39:45 LuitvD: please read up on OE - I just provide a Makefile wrapper. Feb 16 12:39:54 :P Feb 16 12:40:16 I remember build with OE which took ~20GB Feb 16 12:40:37 rwhitby: most of that is abracadabra to me Feb 16 12:41:22 LuitvD: treat it like a loaded weapon then ... Feb 16 12:41:28 * koen dances a jig Feb 16 12:41:29 http://www.openembedded.org/~koen/neo1973/ Feb 16 12:42:16 rwhitby: you have no idea of how I treat loaded weapons, do you :P Feb 16 12:42:33 koen: nice.. now for the hardware :) Feb 16 12:42:45 koen: does it boot ;-) Feb 16 12:42:49 modules-2.6.20-moko7-moko7-r1 - one moko7 is not enough? Feb 16 12:42:59 apparently not Feb 16 12:44:47 koen: qemu can't boot that kernel :P Feb 16 12:45:06 koen: but qemu can't boot any other test build kernel either... :P Feb 16 12:47:16 LuitvD: build qemux86 machine Feb 16 12:47:28 hrw: how? Feb 16 12:47:53 hi hrw Feb 16 12:48:42 LuitvD: which qemu? Feb 16 12:48:52 the qemu from OE should be able to boot it Feb 16 12:49:04 err... trying to run it with qemu-system-arm Feb 16 12:49:05 DEBUG: Running /usr/bin/env svn co -r 1003 http://svn.openmoko.org/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.17.14/patches patches Feb 16 12:49:05 or rather, attempt to boot it Feb 16 12:49:16 ok, that set of patches applies. Feb 16 12:49:21 Someone really needs to do a chroot environment for idiots :) Feb 16 12:49:25 koen: qemu from OE? Feb 16 12:49:29 I don't get it... Feb 16 12:49:31 * koen would try a MACHINE=qemuarm kernel, but that's just me Feb 16 12:49:40 * SpeedEvil is waiting on new hardware to start. Feb 16 12:49:46 LuitvD: the qemu OE builds, with all sorts of neat patches Feb 16 12:49:53 Stephmw: change the SRC_URI to svn://svn.openmoko.org/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.17.14;module=patches;proto=http;rev=1003 Feb 16 12:50:01 koen: okay, I'll take a look Feb 16 12:50:16 does this work for anyone? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC Feb 16 12:50:26 * koen doesn't own a PC Feb 16 12:50:35 * Stephmw congratulates koen Feb 16 12:50:48 morricone: you too, in openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.17.14.bb Feb 16 12:53:02 * LuitvD is using 5 desktops, all full, and 19 tabs in firefox :P Feb 16 12:53:19 * LuitvD will crash before his computer will Feb 16 12:53:29 * xkr47 would like to know how what events can and/or have lead to the phone bricking ? Feb 16 12:54:09 there was a mention on some wiki page that the JTAG port is a last resort, but if I don't have the hackers lunchbox, I guess I'm pretty screwed :P Feb 16 12:54:18 * Stephmw hands xkr47 some superglue and points at the various sockets.. Feb 16 12:54:29 ?--) Feb 16 12:55:29 Stephmw, morricone: or run "make update-makefile ; make setup" and build the kernel again - it should work then. Feb 16 12:55:36 xkr47: you can only brick it if you destroy uboot Feb 16 12:56:01 * rwhitby patches the bad kernel patches rev in MokoMakefile ... Feb 16 12:56:24 * rwhitby waits for uboot to build yet again before getting to the kernel ... ;-) Feb 16 12:56:26 koen, can it be destroyed by writing uboot config from inside uboot (even if uboot were bug-free) ? Feb 16 12:56:48 koen, (I read you can do like "save ...." on the uboot command line to save the current options) Feb 16 12:56:54 xkr47: don't know, never worked with uboot Feb 16 12:57:06 koen: sounds like OpenMoko needs the five rules ... Feb 16 12:57:12 Morgaine - I'm fine. Already found possible bugs in the OM-kernel. ;) (but no answers on the list yet....) Feb 16 12:57:14 rwhitby, ?-) Feb 16 12:57:30 * xkr47 wonders if the uboot will need updating often.. Feb 16 12:57:45 i.e. "you need uboot x.y to be able to run the latest kernel" Feb 16 12:57:47 "Friends don't let friends flash custom bootloaders without confirmed JTAG access." Feb 16 12:58:01 koen, ok :) Feb 16 12:58:14 http://www.nslu2-linux.org/ - rules # 6 and 7. Also http://www.openembedded.org/ rules # 4 and 5 I think. Feb 16 12:58:44 oh, not openembedded.org, it's http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/ Feb 16 12:59:29 counter Feb 16 12:59:29 P0: a week, 5 days 22:27:09 (6.936 - 12.936 days); P1: 28.936 - 43.936; P2: 196.936 - 226.936 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (345) Feb 16 12:59:30 "if it isn't in the scm, it doesn't exist" Feb 16 12:59:47 "if it doesn't build automatically, it doesn't get into the feeds" Feb 16 13:00:07 rules to live by .... Feb 16 13:01:01 If it doesn't survive a review, don't flash it ;) Feb 16 13:01:34 So should messages about MokoMakefile updates go to openmoko-devel@, or distro-devel@? Feb 16 13:02:13 I guess eventually people will be able to subscribe to mokomakefile-commits@lists.projects.openmoko.org Feb 16 13:02:16 I'd guess om-devel Feb 16 13:02:30 and not clutter the main lists Feb 16 13:09:16 wow, my kernel just spinlocked Feb 16 13:09:31 kernel: BUG: spinlock lockup on CPU#0, ld/1806, ffff810001d65c90 (Tainted: P ) Feb 16 13:10:26 LuitvD: is that an openmoko kernel? Feb 16 13:11:25 rwhitby: no, my desktop kernel... during that makefile :P Feb 16 13:11:40 (got nothing to do with that makefile I guess...) Feb 16 13:12:11 LuitvD: might be better off reporting it in a different channel then ... Feb 16 13:12:55 rwhitby: useless. it's tainted kernel. kernel devs will only green ;) Feb 16 13:13:03 rwhitby: might be better of reinstalling my fedora :P Feb 16 13:13:05 dottedmag: very true :-) Feb 16 13:13:18 dottedmag: tainted kernel? Feb 16 13:13:29 * rwhitby hugs the open source ixp ethernet driver which finally untainted the NSLU2 kernel ... Feb 16 13:13:39 rwhitby: ;) Feb 16 13:13:53 only took us two years, but we got there ... Feb 16 13:14:24 cu Feb 16 13:14:25 i'm thinking of buying an nslu2 Feb 16 13:14:35 gta01-kernel is now happily building with the latest MokoMakefile setup Feb 16 13:14:37 * hrw|gone too parag0n /me too Feb 16 13:14:45 to make a wireless bridge + bluetooth access point Feb 16 13:15:17 parag0n: wireless isn't that stable yet, but #nslu2-linux would be the channel to chat about that. Bluetooth is fine. Feb 16 13:15:49 i think i'd only be using the wireless as a client Feb 16 13:16:24 * rwhitby uses bluetooth on NSLU2 at home and work to network the Treo650 without paying 2c/Kb (yes Kb, not Mb) GPRS charges. Feb 16 13:16:26 wireless connecting to router, bridging to ethernet for my xbox, and bluetooth for the neo Feb 16 13:17:22 Stephmw, morricone: is yours building again now? Feb 16 13:19:29 LuitvD: kernel: BUG: spinlock lockup on CPU#0, ld/1806, ffff810001d65c90 (Tainted: P ) <- see? Feb 16 13:19:29 LuitvD: You've loaded some proprietary driver Feb 16 13:19:29 s/driver/module/ Feb 16 13:19:30 dottedmag meant: LuitvD: You've loaded some proprietary module Feb 16 13:20:42 dottedma1: does the nvidia driver count as proprietary? Feb 16 13:21:02 LuitvD: sure Feb 16 13:21:17 dottedmag: okay, then that's the problem here :P Feb 16 13:22:07 Hmm: WARNING: Couldn't open directory /home/moko/build/tmp/work/fic-gta01-linux/gta01-kernel-2.6-moko7-r1/image/lib/modules/2.6.18-3-686: No such file or directory Feb 16 13:22:19 LuitvD: It's just FYI: kernel devs don't even look at bugreports when kernel is tainted. Feb 16 13:22:37 :P Feb 16 13:22:53 * rwhitby watches the MokoMakefile build progress onto openswan, and decides it's time for bed. Feb 16 13:22:54 Night all. Feb 16 13:23:52 rwhitby, catch you in the morning. I have started build with moko makefile too Feb 16 13:23:58 (If anyone else has problems with MokoMakefile, just ping me here and I'll see it in about 7 or 8 hours time.) Feb 16 13:24:45 rwhitby, one question if you are around Feb 16 13:24:56 rwhitby, how long the build takes Feb 16 13:26:31 <__doc__> hi Feb 16 13:26:54 <__doc__> openmoko looks sexy, is it completely opensource? Feb 16 13:27:36 not quite Feb 16 13:27:54 the GSM stack is on a proprietary chip (basically a GSM modem from the Linux system's standpoint) Feb 16 13:28:02 on the Linux system, there is _one_ proprietary part Feb 16 13:28:19 that's the AGPS chip provider's agps positioning daemon Feb 16 13:29:16 <__doc__> so linux as usual then :) Feb 16 13:29:23 <__doc__> open source with proprietary drivers Feb 16 13:29:35 (unsurprisingly, there's been a lot of talk already about reverse-engineering the agps chip protocol and offering a free replacement) Feb 16 13:29:59 <__doc__> the gsm stack would be more interesting as opensource :) Feb 16 13:30:00 doc only one Feb 16 13:30:02 yes, a kind of user-space driver Feb 16 13:30:21 the kernel is free of proprietary bits at least Feb 16 13:30:32 __doc__: time to look into SDR then? Feb 16 13:31:05 <__doc__> right, so maybe that's a stupid question. I live in europe, will I be able to get hold of one of the openmoko babies and put my sim in it and run it with my favorite operator? Feb 16 13:31:38 yes Feb 16 13:31:39 The GPS daemon pretty much does all you want it to do initially. It may be possible to boost positioning accuracy from 2m or so to .5m or so with Diffferential GPS over the internet, which the agpsd daemon probably does not support. This requires an internet connection though. Feb 16 13:31:52 <__doc__> mjr: kewl Feb 16 13:32:03 <__doc__> mjr: what would broadly be the price range of openmoko? Feb 16 13:32:08 $350 Feb 16 13:32:13 for the first batch. Feb 16 13:32:14 broadly, it's been said to sell for $350 Feb 16 13:32:22 The release price has not been stated AIUI. Feb 16 13:32:35 It'll depend on supply/demand at the time I suppose. Feb 16 13:32:49 * __doc__ figures he better gets one early before it's the next died out device Feb 16 13:32:49 (and a nitpick: the operating system is OpenMoko, the first phase phone itself is Neo1973 :) Feb 16 13:33:16 _hopefully_ even if FIC decides open source is evil, it doesn't matter so much. Feb 16 13:33:18 though I sometimes catch myself using (open)moko for the phone itself too Feb 16 13:33:45 As by then other makers may have come along, or some of the phone-hacking projects may have yielded useful hardware. Feb 16 13:34:08 * SpeedEvil finally catches up 'recent changes' from the wiki. Feb 16 13:34:19 <__doc__> uhm, the GUI is gnome, i.e. qt right? Feb 16 13:34:56 __doc__: no Feb 16 13:35:36 <__doc__> gtk then? Feb 16 13:36:26 hail mickeyl Feb 16 13:36:55 <__doc__> also, is python running on openmoko? Feb 16 13:36:58 <__doc__> :D Feb 16 13:37:06 __doc__, GUI is gtk plus some custom libraries (gnome is on top of gtk) Feb 16 13:37:23 <__doc__> oki Feb 16 13:37:36 cheers Feb 16 13:37:52 it's a Linux distro. You can run Python on it. A different question is if things like that will be installed by default. Feb 16 13:38:09 doc bescause of python is in openembedded python will be run on the neo Feb 16 13:38:22 We really want to keep the base system in 64M. Feb 16 13:38:24 * LuitvD nearly sets fire to his soldering spounge Feb 16 13:38:27 (Which I haven't had time to find out yet, if it's already public on the web or repos.) Feb 16 13:38:27 <__doc__> I see Feb 16 13:38:31 As otherwise, we can't change the SD card. Feb 16 13:38:34 Which is bad. Feb 16 13:38:40 SpeedEvil, yeah Feb 16 13:39:05 64M is compressed, but still, you can't be putting too many large apps like python and perl on there. Feb 16 13:39:13 hm 1 gb sdmicro card ist now priced at 12 euros Feb 16 13:39:19 <__doc__> ya Feb 16 13:39:30 Yes. However, you can't change the card if you put the OS on there. Feb 16 13:39:31 *nod*, I'm completely prepared to install python myself on my eventual 2 gig microsd ;) Feb 16 13:39:33 woglinde: I can get them as low as 8 euro's Feb 16 13:39:34 <__doc__> hm is there a package manager included on that linux? Feb 16 13:39:44 doc yes Feb 16 13:39:48 <__doc__> apt? Feb 16 13:39:49 LuitvD: It's a microSD, not a SD. Feb 16 13:40:03 LuitvD: substantially more expensive. Feb 16 13:40:06 SpeedEvil: I know Feb 16 13:40:12 hopefully we will kick out ipkg and use dpkg Feb 16 13:40:14 still 8 euros Feb 16 13:40:17 <__doc__> well, as long as you can install applications it's no problem Feb 16 13:40:18 speedevil if you qunatities at 20k or so the price maybe drop at euros Feb 16 13:40:21 ups 5 Feb 16 13:40:26 buy Feb 16 13:40:46 Ah. Feb 16 13:41:06 <__doc__> right, so another question is, can you sell closed source applications for that thing? :) Feb 16 13:41:17 doc why not? Feb 16 13:41:31 __doc__: why would one do that? Feb 16 13:41:50 zecke to make money? Feb 16 13:41:58 <__doc__> zecke: retarded story, don't ask please :/ Feb 16 13:42:06 zecke sell games? Feb 16 13:42:07 I want tomtom on it. Feb 16 13:42:16 Until opensource mapping comes along. Feb 16 13:42:51 speedevil opensource mapping will not be happen I guess Feb 16 13:42:55 <__doc__> zecke: I work for a company that produces mobile phone DRM systems (yeah the big evil). To keep up any illusion of unbreakability the secret souce needs to be as obscure as possible. I.e. closed source. Feb 16 13:43:00 Yes well. I'd like for much of the openmoko apps be free, and for the OS or openmoko pages to provide easy ways to donate to creators of spiffy apps via on-line payment services. But that's me. Feb 16 13:43:06 woglinde: www.openstreetmap.org Feb 16 13:43:15 you _can_ sell proprietary apps for the moko, though, if you wish Feb 16 13:43:16 its a long shot, but there are pretty good maps of some parts of the world Feb 16 13:43:29 heya mjr :) Feb 16 13:43:42 yo Feb 16 13:43:53 tigert: comparatively little of the world has vector maps, suitable for routing. Feb 16 13:44:01 tigert: I couldn't figure out how to add roads to OSM using the editor Feb 16 13:44:07 Even smaller areas have these reasonably updated. Feb 16 13:44:10 tigert: all I succeeded in was adding lines Feb 16 13:44:35 And practically none have all points of interest like many commercial maps. Feb 16 13:44:53 The mapping app is near trivial. Feb 16 13:44:59 It's the map that's hard. Feb 16 13:45:01 one of the app ideas has been to make it easy for the moko to collect position info on where the user goes, and then the user could label the data and send to OSM. That would be nice, not my piece of cake though Feb 16 13:45:28 <__doc__> mjr: it's my discovery that allowing closed source on a platform is about the only way for some companies to give something to opensource at all, because otherwise they just screw it and get rid of the nagging voice (me usually) to put some value back. Feb 16 13:45:30 of course, you'd need to roam systematically around to collect any kind of full maps... Feb 16 13:45:38 It's nice, yes. It's going to take a hell of a long time to make maps though that way. Feb 16 13:45:49 SpeedEvil, yeah. Feb 16 13:47:06 doc, yes, and you can. I think one of the points about choosing gtk+ was that it's lgpl'd and you can do proprietary stuff on it if you wish Feb 16 13:47:57 time for a drink :( Feb 16 13:48:00 gtk+ is also just 100times nicer to work with Feb 16 13:48:09 the solder vapors are making me dizzy Feb 16 13:48:32 * LuitvD is away: gone for a drink Feb 16 13:49:11 Solder does not vapourise much if at all at usual temps - it's the flux. Feb 16 13:49:20 * LuitvD hopes rwhitby's makefile will do what it's supposed to do Feb 16 13:49:38 SpeedEvil: it's the rosin and the lead that's vaporising Feb 16 13:49:54 Look up leads vapour pressure at 200C. It's next to negligable. Feb 16 13:50:13 mickeyl: could you merge linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb from OE to openmoko svn? Feb 16 13:50:14 SpeedEvil: well, then it's just the rosin :P Feb 16 13:50:24 Rosin is nasty stuff in bulk. Feb 16 13:50:31 yeah Feb 16 13:50:45 and I've got solder with a little bit too much rosin, IMHO Feb 16 13:50:46 :( Feb 16 13:50:52 anyways, I'm off Feb 16 13:51:04 koen_: sure Feb 16 13:52:05 Did rwhitby make mokomake work when building the kernel? Feb 16 13:52:39 <__doc__> well, thanks for all the answers. It's been very informative. I'll probably an openmoko running device once one gets out. Feb 16 13:52:49 <__doc__> +get Feb 16 14:19:52 Are phones like the Nokia E61 too "closed" to run OpenMoko (at some point)? I was trying to find a 'targeted phones' page on the Wiki, but didn't spot one. Feb 16 14:21:05 you need at least a Linux kernel w/ full hardware support Feb 16 14:21:19 that rules out most commercially available phones Feb 16 14:21:38 Thanks mickeyl Feb 16 14:22:48 moin Feb 16 14:24:53 * LuitvD is back (gone 00:36:22) Feb 16 14:26:06 I'm tempted to add information about Canada to the Shipping_Notes section of the Wiki, however the opening paragraph states 'We are currently able to ship direct to the countries listed below' implying that someone is officially listing only countries that the Neo is being shipped to. Feb 16 14:26:27 :P Feb 16 14:26:38 newm: add the info if you have it Feb 16 14:26:41 Which makes me hesitant to add a country, because it might not actually be one that is being shipped direct to. Feb 16 14:26:42 newmedian: just add your info Feb 16 14:26:44 hm.. i wonder how far the gtk-directfb effort is really Feb 16 14:26:45 thats only countries which people have info for Feb 16 14:26:49 if you have info, add it. Feb 16 14:26:49 roger roger. Feb 16 14:26:53 lol Feb 16 14:27:04 who's roger? ;) Feb 16 14:27:17 dodger usually Feb 16 14:27:40 sorry, too much rogering ;) Feb 16 14:27:47 roger the bullet dodger? Feb 16 14:27:50 you got rogered? Feb 16 14:28:19 Isn't that a requirement being a developer? Feb 16 14:28:39 (Shatner voice: why does nobody tell me these things) Feb 16 14:28:39 Stephmw: are you saying you aren't rogered? Feb 16 14:29:08 roh: you worked for convergence? Feb 16 14:29:36 zecke yep.. but not that long as others Feb 16 14:30:14 roh: I think you know more than us about Gtk on DirectFB. The new debian installer will use gtk on directfb, so it must work to some degree Feb 16 14:31:24 zecke thats what i was thinking.. also the gtk-convert_float_to_int_math patch ideas made me remember sth. Feb 16 14:31:31 I see there's no Wi-Fi in the phone (or have I missed it?). I was hoping you could have something like that. Are there any plans to add WLAN in the future? Feb 16 14:31:31 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess Feb 16 14:32:07 nice script aloril :) it works Feb 16 14:32:17 heh Feb 16 14:32:43 the future is wide open. specs for v2 are not finalized Feb 16 14:32:44 plans + wifi + future = run script :) Feb 16 14:32:47 i'm currently at moving some .. eh compressed media content out of the way to have diskspace for a openmoko build ;) Feb 16 14:32:48 aloril2: thanks for the link Feb 16 14:33:17 mickeyl, is there expected to be new revisions of the hardware for sale every month Feb 16 14:33:26 mickeyl: releast 2 -- that is, the march release? Feb 16 14:33:45 rwhitby: any estimates of how long your script could run? Feb 16 14:33:56 mickeyl, i.e. could it be worth waiting a month or so to get yet-a-bit-better hardware? Feb 16 14:33:58 xkr47: every month? hell that would be costly Feb 16 14:34:04 rwhitby: it's eating one of my cores for quite a while now Feb 16 14:34:26 mickeyl, i.e. is there expected to be any hardware releases between phase 1 and phase 2 ? Feb 16 14:34:43 xkr47 - I'd guess not. Feb 16 14:34:43 mickeyl, sorry for asking stupid questions, I'm not aware of your plans nor cost :P Feb 16 14:34:46 xkr47: if there is going to be a major hardware change, then it'll be right before phase 2. doesn't make sense to hold off phase 1 buying Feb 16 14:35:02 mickeyl, thank you for your time! I'm happy :) Feb 16 14:35:34 mickeyl - Any guess, why nobody answers my mail on om-kernel? Is it that stupid? Feb 16 14:35:39 we are toying with many ideas, but as Lefty indicated in a mail, every minor hardware change is _incredibly_ costly Feb 16 14:36:01 Elrond: I'm afraid the only one who can answer questions on om-kernel is LaF0rge and he is _really_ busy, so please be patient Feb 16 14:36:03 wifi is soooo very ideal. Feb 16 14:36:20 * mickeyl is not even subscribed to om-kernel Feb 16 14:36:31 LuitvD: The makefile has been running for a few hours for me now, on an amd64 3000+ Feb 16 14:36:32 roh: e.g. Access claimed that they tested both directFB and tinyX and found tinyX to perform much better. They did not publish any numbers and I wonder how this relates to http://mail.directfb.org/pipermail/directfb-dev/2006-December/002538.html Feb 16 14:37:01 directFB would have had major speed increases for giving up liberty to run every-other-X apps Feb 16 14:37:02 mickeyl - So I should just assume, that LaF0rge is plain busy and be patient for a week or so? Feb 16 14:37:09 s/had/to have/ Feb 16 14:37:09 mickeyl meant: directFB would have to have major speed increases for giving up liberty to run every-other-X apps Feb 16 14:37:18 Elrond: yes Feb 16 14:37:19 * xkr47 likes X Feb 16 14:37:20 CM: maybe I'll beat you at that... running on one of the cores of my X2 4200+ Feb 16 14:37:20 mickeyl: you can run X on directFB :) Feb 16 14:37:33 zecke: oh yes, please. we need more layer of indirection heh Feb 16 14:37:33 mickeyl; any update on p0 dispatch? are we still looking at 28th ish? Feb 16 14:37:35 :) Feb 16 14:37:38 noidd: no idea Feb 16 14:37:39 mickeyl - Thanks for the notice. :) Feb 16 14:38:02 mickeyl: you can run X on directFB through a vpn? Feb 16 14:38:08 :D Feb 16 14:38:56 mickeyl: I bet a weight has come off your shoulders now that the source is released tho. Feb 16 14:39:19 @makefile process: AAAAH, i don't need all those locales :P Feb 16 14:39:31 mickeyl: no longer that looming deadline of getting as much out there before the public swarm Feb 16 14:39:51 noidd: a bit, yeah. i was a bit afraid of people starting to be very disappointed because of our early stage. but all in all it looks like folks are understanding the iterative process and are patient. which is really a relief Feb 16 14:39:52 http://www.openembedded.org/user-manual&dpage=commonuse_new_package like this? help us to write it? Feb 16 14:39:57 sorry Feb 16 14:40:15 mickeyl: Honestly, you've done far more than I thought ya'll would. Feb 16 14:40:29 i'm ammazed you got so far with such a small team. Kudos. Feb 16 14:40:48 thanks. you ain't see nothing yet ;) Feb 16 14:40:49 yes, kudos. Feb 16 14:40:52 and the documentation and esp the UI look + feel stuff will help a LOT in keeping things in a straight line. Feb 16 14:41:27 just give me a fingerprint scanner and a .45 cal derringer in v2 and i'll be happy :-D Feb 16 14:41:44 incorrect fingerprint *BANG* Feb 16 14:41:49 45, how about a 380 ? Feb 16 14:42:00 "derringer"? Feb 16 14:42:08 noidd: v2 will blow us all awa Feb 16 14:42:08 y Feb 16 14:42:22 and by the time v2 is there, we will have a nice set of integrated apps Feb 16 14:42:23 I will have the internal pistol then. Excellent! Feb 16 14:42:28 heh Feb 16 14:42:56 hey mickeyl Feb 16 14:43:09 yo Feb 16 14:43:13 I'm having trouble compiling libmokoui using qmake Feb 16 14:43:24 it doesn't seem to be able to find gtk2 Feb 16 14:43:26 mickeyl: aw please, don't tease us with v2 before the p1 devices are brought out :P Feb 16 14:43:37 LuitvD: righto. Feb 16 14:43:41 :P Feb 16 14:43:42 PsychoChicken: please use autoconf. Feb 16 14:43:46 unfortunately, build system is qmake (don't use it myself) Feb 16 14:43:46 qmake is only for me, really Feb 16 14:43:49 * LuitvD really wants a p1 device Feb 16 14:43:58 oh Feb 16 14:44:00 the honest story is... Feb 16 14:44:09 i knew nothing about autotools before starting this project Feb 16 14:44:14 i'm a qmake weeny Feb 16 14:44:20 :-) Feb 16 14:44:24 so i added a qmake build infrastructure Feb 16 14:44:26 you say that like its a bad thing Feb 16 14:44:34 autotools has a reputation of being horrific Feb 16 14:44:40 and just before we started with external people, i added autotools support to all packages Feb 16 14:44:43 I saw that qmake is supposed to locate libs via pkgconfig Feb 16 14:44:58 yeah, qmake 4 can do that Feb 16 14:45:12 pkg-config --cflags gtk+-2.0 Feb 16 14:45:15 see my qmake devel script Feb 16 14:45:17 works on my system Feb 16 14:45:19 in devel/qmake/* Feb 16 14:45:31 did you set $OMDIR ? Feb 16 14:45:33 ant there's a "PKGCONFIG += gtk+-2.0 libmb" in the pro file Feb 16 14:45:37 yeah Feb 16 14:45:42 try to run qmake -v -v Feb 16 14:45:45 or -d -d ? Feb 16 14:45:47 ok Feb 16 14:45:51 it works here Feb 16 14:45:52 Has the wiki been updated to note, that autoconf is the recommended way? Feb 16 14:45:55 otherwise i wouldn't have commited Feb 16 14:45:57 no Feb 16 14:46:05 I'm following the instructions there Feb 16 14:46:10 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC#.3D_In_Xoo Feb 16 14:46:11 i think there is a note there Feb 16 14:46:25 well, it reads: NOTE: qmake is Mickey's preferred build tool, you can use autotools as well... Feb 16 14:46:31 hmm Feb 16 14:46:34 guess i need to rephrase Feb 16 14:46:40 * mickeyl does Feb 16 14:47:10 better now? Feb 16 14:47:17 NOTE: qmake is Mickey's preferred build tool, it probably doesn't work if you're not him. Please use autotools... Feb 16 14:47:33 heh Feb 16 14:47:56 I'll work on that myself if I manage to compile it. so, I should rather run autogen.sh in each directory then? Feb 16 14:48:00 hah nice Feb 16 14:48:14 exactly. compile openmoko-libs, then gsmd, then the individual apps Feb 16 14:48:22 doing so.. Feb 16 14:48:39 i will expand this wiki page but right now there's more important stuff to do ... Feb 16 14:48:44 * mickeyl goes back to work Feb 16 14:48:44 libs is done Feb 16 14:51:21 speaking about autotools... Feb 16 14:51:22 catholic god himself invented autotools just for amusement Feb 16 14:51:22 first there was the great flood, then the plague, now autotools Feb 16 14:51:59 "autotools, the 8th plague of the ancient egyptians" Feb 16 14:52:15 I'm not sure if we're going to survive this one, though! :/ Feb 16 14:55:45 mickeyl: did you get the mail on GSoC2007? Feb 16 14:55:49 LuitvD: I cannot confirm nor deny the rogering, rogered, non-rogering, non-rogered action you have described Feb 16 14:56:31 Stephmw: I can't follow what you're saying :P Feb 16 14:58:09 koen: i got it. I really hesitate to do anything about it because of the organizational overhead though. Feb 16 14:58:17 my March is completely overbooked Feb 16 14:58:21 with two projects Feb 16 14:58:30 mickeyl: that's what I feared Feb 16 14:58:37 April i start with the book contract Feb 16 14:58:42 + openmoko Feb 16 14:58:42 mickeyl: I'm having a bit of the same troubles Feb 16 14:58:54 uni + conferences is getting awfully busy Feb 16 14:59:03 let's talk @ fosdem with some guys Feb 16 14:59:26 btw. fosdem is starting to be an appointment nightmare Feb 16 14:59:36 i alread have more guys i want to meet than hours per day Feb 16 14:59:39 :/ Feb 16 14:59:56 * mickeyl needs a cloning-machine Feb 16 15:00:10 mickeyl: who doesn't :P Feb 16 15:00:15 more space in the bed for me Feb 16 15:00:35 zecke: in my new office room i will put a guest bed in Feb 16 15:00:38 for you :) Feb 16 15:00:49 hehe Feb 16 15:00:51 so we can have hack sessions here as well Feb 16 15:01:19 oh btw. Feb 16 15:01:24 rwhitby: found you an error Feb 16 15:01:45 * mickeyl needs to remember telling his landlord that he will move :/ Feb 16 15:01:49 she won't be amused... Feb 16 15:02:03 why not? Feb 16 15:02:16 we were pretty good folks Feb 16 15:02:18 paying regularly Feb 16 15:02:20 :P Feb 16 15:02:23 keeping house clean and stuff Feb 16 15:02:30 That's easy to change. Feb 16 15:02:35 heh Feb 16 15:02:44 i guess she will be sad leaving us Feb 16 15:02:47 *shrug* Feb 16 15:02:48 :) Feb 16 15:02:54 can't take care about anyone in the world Feb 16 15:03:13 invite me for a week, and you can be sure you'll be kicked out :P Feb 16 15:03:31 Sure you can. Give her a nice smile as you leave, and say how much you've enjoyed being there. Feb 16 15:03:33 Or not. Feb 16 15:03:54 book contract? Feb 16 15:03:57 what book? Feb 16 15:04:16 Writing and Building Software for Embedded Linux Devices Feb 16 15:04:17 :D Feb 16 15:04:26 sounds appropriate :-D Feb 16 15:04:27 found a publisher interest in doing this project with me Feb 16 15:04:32 which one? Feb 16 15:04:36 open source press Feb 16 15:04:41 cool Feb 16 15:05:06 if all goes well, this time a dual release Feb 16 15:05:09 german + english a bit later Feb 16 15:05:40 first language enlish I'm guesisng Feb 16 15:05:44 larger audience I would assu,e Feb 16 15:06:10 that's what i wanted Feb 16 15:06:14 but not what they wanted :) Feb 16 15:06:21 (opensourcepress.de) Feb 16 15:06:33 but i'm fine with that, because it means I won't be in charge of translation Feb 16 15:06:40 which i was quite afraid of Feb 16 15:06:45 well, that sucks for me Feb 16 15:06:50 put in lots of pictures :-P Feb 16 15:06:56 sure thing :) Feb 16 15:07:09 mickeyl, nice :) Feb 16 15:07:15 congratulations anyways Feb 16 15:07:26 thanks Feb 16 15:07:26 I attempted writing a book at one point Feb 16 15:07:29 but I gave up. Feb 16 15:07:43 I hate writing documentation and writing a book is documentation on sterios Feb 16 15:07:43 mickeyl, i'll buy it Feb 16 15:07:46 steriods Feb 16 15:08:00 i like ebedded linux books Feb 16 15:08:11 of course i will make sure OpenMoko finds its way into it Feb 16 15:08:17 Man, your resume is going to look damn good when you hit the marketplace propper Feb 16 15:08:20 ie - out of uni Feb 16 15:08:32 :) Feb 16 15:08:51 my original plan was to take 6 months off after ph.d. Feb 16 15:08:55 doesn't look like i can do it Feb 16 15:09:04 too many interesting things to work on Feb 16 15:09:08 *shrug* Feb 16 15:09:26 more money to buy precious things for wife Feb 16 15:09:29 *cough* Feb 16 15:09:33 lol Feb 16 15:09:45 buy her a openmoko once it has a "wife" mode :) Feb 16 15:09:52 hehe Feb 16 15:10:12 she will get a prototype Feb 16 15:10:13 without case Feb 16 15:10:15 * mickeyl chuckles Feb 16 15:10:38 you could tape it to her hand bag also, on the outside.. ;) Feb 16 15:10:49 mickeyl: could be worse... could be time for kids Feb 16 15:10:53 oh yeah Feb 16 15:10:53 might look cool Feb 16 15:10:58 Stephmw: heh, right. Feb 16 15:11:07 nothing planned for that route atm. Feb 16 15:11:12 lol Feb 16 15:11:21 mickeyl, as long as you don't take that 6 months off.. ;) Feb 16 15:11:21 there's planning... and real life Feb 16 15:11:38 i'd marry you in exchange for a moko prototype Feb 16 15:11:49 lol Feb 16 15:11:54 hmm too bad my religion doesn't allow bigamy Feb 16 15:11:56 sorry Feb 16 15:12:04 * Stephmw hopes to keep playing the odds against accidental kids for a few more years yet Feb 16 15:12:10 it probably doent allow two guys to get married either Feb 16 15:12:12 mickeyl, trigamy or monogamy only ?-) Feb 16 15:12:20 heh, right Feb 16 15:12:27 xkr47: unfortunately everything >= 1 Feb 16 15:12:30 eh Feb 16 15:12:32 2, even Feb 16 15:12:35 :P Feb 16 15:12:40 :DD Feb 16 15:12:42 mickeyl: only the following dirs in openmoko svn from trunk/oe/packages aren't merged yet: "gtk+" and "linux-qemu" Feb 16 15:13:05 koen: gtk+ should have no differences as it was just a backport Feb 16 15:13:17 linux-qemu is a bit tricky Feb 16 15:13:17 just one hacky patch Feb 16 15:13:21 to get framebuffer orientation right Feb 16 15:13:31 re Feb 16 15:13:32 need to pester RP to make that via command line Feb 16 15:14:25 mickeyl: I'll leave merging conf/distro, classes/{base,sourcepkg}.bbclass and conf/machine/{x86,qt2410} up to you Feb 16 15:14:36 oki Feb 16 15:14:44 that's all in flux anyway Feb 16 15:14:49 base is done Feb 16 15:14:53 just the regexp Feb 16 15:15:55 mickeyl: if you move away already merged bits openmoko will build against current .dev Feb 16 15:16:11 is libglade available? or is it unusable for openmoko and you have to use GtkBuilder? Feb 16 15:16:42 depends on what comes first Feb 16 15:16:44 gtkbuilder Feb 16 15:16:54 or my work for adding libglade support for the extra openmoko widgets Feb 16 15:17:33 is conversion between .glade and gtkbuilder files possible? Feb 16 15:17:58 mickeyl: linux-qemu? what for it is in openmoko? Feb 16 15:18:44 it's a linux-rp 2.6.17 configured for Qemuarm and patched to have VGA portrait Feb 16 15:19:03 xkr47: i think the format is 95% identical, if not more Feb 16 15:19:08 mickeyl: then extract that patch is all what is needed Feb 16 15:19:13 ok nice.. Feb 16 15:19:20 hrw: yes Feb 16 15:20:55 mickeyl: I asked RP about it Feb 16 15:21:36 a command line switch would be nice Feb 16 15:21:38 kernel CMDLINE Feb 16 15:21:39 that is Feb 16 15:21:45 fb=portrait Feb 16 15:21:48 fb=landscape Feb 16 15:22:20 mickeyl: it is not rotated vga? Feb 16 15:22:30 no Feb 16 15:22:38 native resolution is 480x6480 Feb 16 15:22:41 480x640 even Feb 16 15:22:43 ok Feb 16 15:22:49 if it was rotated, we could have stopped the project Feb 16 15:22:50 :D Feb 16 15:23:03 rotating in softwarexrand would bring the s3c to a crawl Feb 16 15:23:06 s/xrand// Feb 16 15:23:07 mickeyl meant: rotating in software would bring the s3c to a crawl Feb 16 15:23:22 even more than it already is Feb 16 15:32:23 anyone has screenshots of regular gtk+ or x11 apps running on openmoko? Feb 16 15:33:37 loufoque: yes Feb 16 15:33:46 http://people.openmoko.org/laforge/photos/gta01bv2_omoko/ Feb 16 15:34:19 I want a movie of xeyes following a pointer :) Feb 16 15:34:25 can you use the screen as a 640x480 display (i.e. 90° rotated) in X? Feb 16 15:34:34 Not yet. Feb 16 15:34:40 It will be with software rotation. Feb 16 15:34:44 Which is fairly slow. Feb 16 15:35:07 mickeyl: RP has a patch to speed up rotated operation in X Feb 16 15:35:12 mickeyl: faster-rotated.patch in OE Feb 16 15:35:20 cool. /me notes Feb 16 15:35:21 The screen can be set into a 240*320 mode - which helps a bit. Feb 16 15:35:27 For some apps. Feb 16 15:35:48 oh nice Feb 16 15:36:05 are X extensions such as RANDR supported ? Feb 16 15:36:09 mickeyl: it reorders the datapath a bit to get better cache usage. iirc it moves 32pixels at once instead of single pixels Feb 16 15:36:36 Ah - cacheline oriented? Feb 16 15:36:42 Makes sense. Feb 16 15:37:06 koen: ah regarding performance Feb 16 15:37:14 i need to check how much our performance improves when Feb 16 15:37:18 a) disabling antialiasing Feb 16 15:37:36 http://openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/xorg-xserver/xserver-kdrive/faster-rotated.patch Feb 16 15:37:36 Antialiasing when the user can't see the pixels doesn't make much sense :) Feb 16 15:38:53 :) Feb 16 15:39:14 SpeedEvil, as with old CRTs then :) Feb 16 15:39:31 - * Copy the bits, always write across the physical frame buffer Feb 16 15:39:31 - * to take advantage of write combining. Feb 16 15:39:31 + * Copy in blocks of size BLOCKSIZE_WIDTH x BLOCKSIZE_HEIGHT Feb 16 15:39:32 + * to reduce the number of cache misses when rotating 90 or Feb 16 15:39:32 + * 270 degrees. Feb 16 15:39:37 that describes the patch best Feb 16 15:41:45 koen: it can't rotate 180 degrees? Feb 16 15:42:23 LuitvD: it can, but that's not a really usefull use case Feb 16 15:42:29 :P Feb 16 15:42:41 true Feb 16 15:42:45 hrw: I only see openmoko applications there, not regular gtk+ or x11 ones. Feb 16 15:43:24 * SpeedEvil ponders use-cases for 180 degree rotation. Feb 16 15:43:59 SpeedEvil: left handed operation of a nokia 770 Feb 16 15:43:59 Hmm. A flip, with a mirror on it with a touchscreen on it... Feb 16 15:44:37 * LuitvD googles for 'nokia 770' Feb 16 15:44:49 gah. Feb 16 15:45:06 * SpeedEvil got reflection and rotation confused. Feb 16 15:45:08 ah, indeed, it's useful on that device... :P Feb 16 15:45:49 SpeedEvil: mirrored reading is hard... mirrored writing even worse :P Feb 16 15:45:56 IIRC, the GPS antenna is at the bottom. Feb 16 15:46:03 In normal use. Feb 16 15:46:09 * LuitvD[eating] is away: sleeping Feb 16 15:46:13 For GPS apps, putting it at the top would make sense. Feb 16 15:46:16 damn, stupid away script :P Feb 16 15:46:27 loufoque: gtk+ app: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/fc66e7b413c1da4ddb7a86ded2fd48e3.png Feb 16 15:46:46 gtk+ theming is not finished Feb 16 15:46:54 loufoque, they had a regular X border :) Feb 16 15:46:55 as you can see in the red and green Feb 16 15:47:13 but it doesn't look bad if you don't count the missing bits Feb 16 15:47:14 imo Feb 16 15:47:36 very nice Feb 16 15:47:53 mickeyl: when I adjust the fontsize in the gtkrc files the background pixmaps dissappeared :( Feb 16 15:47:55 heh @ strikeover wifi logo Feb 16 15:48:02 koen: very odd Feb 16 15:48:15 mickeyl: maybe a stray typo somewhere Feb 16 15:48:19 ya Feb 16 15:49:50 the red and green bars remind me of Command & Conquer ;) Feb 16 15:49:51 mickeyl: can we add the neo in here http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/xserver-kdrive-common/xserver-kdrive-common/etc/X11/Xserver ? Feb 16 15:50:26 heh, you want to submit the real dpi?` Feb 16 15:50:39 dunno whether this is too confusing now Feb 16 15:50:50 feel free to add, but lets use the wrong dpi for some weeks more Feb 16 15:50:51 not *now* Feb 16 15:51:00 cool Feb 16 15:51:02 but in a local diff when I get my p0 neo Feb 16 15:51:03 sure thing then Feb 16 15:51:05 :) Feb 16 15:51:26 i wonder why i didn't need to patch that file Feb 16 15:51:41 shouldn't the X server detect that? Feb 16 15:51:41 [not dpi, of course] Feb 16 15:51:46 but resolution Feb 16 15:52:01 # Its a device we dont know about - in which case force Feb 16 15:52:01 # kdrive to use the current framebuffer geometry otherwise Feb 16 15:52:01 # it will defualt to trying to achieve 1024x768 Feb 16 15:52:04 kdrive is a bit special Feb 16 15:56:31 can openmoko handle multiple graphical applications at the same time, with the ability to switch between applications? Feb 16 15:56:48 yes Feb 16 15:56:53 it runs an X server Feb 16 15:56:59 and linux Feb 16 15:57:15 LuitvD[eating]: Did your make fail on db3-native too? Feb 16 15:57:15 Is anyone adding nxclient support, by the way? Feb 16 16:00:12 newmedian: which open source nx client is really usable? Feb 16 16:00:36 sure but how can you switch between applications? Feb 16 16:01:00 with your finger or the stylus Feb 16 16:01:57 greentux: nxclient? all of them (there is only one) Feb 16 16:02:04 greentux, I've been using the one packaged for (k)ubuntu Feb 16 16:05:30 greentux, I'm having problems reaching freenx.berlios.de however the cache page shows the nxclient as part of freenx: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:UQ5yBKk4FlQJ:freenx.berlios.de/+%2Bfreenx&hl=en&strip=1 Feb 16 16:08:48 zecke: which license has nxclient? Feb 16 16:09:46 zecke: there are some free approaches for nxclient, but only 30% of functionality realised Feb 16 16:10:16 greentux, as I understand it there is no complete up-to-date nxclient yet. Check out qtnx for a client that works with some older releases. Feb 16 16:11:11 ok. Feb 16 16:12:07 nxserver (freenx) on OpenMoko/Neo would be great, but having nxclient (and RDP) would make it a good support device. Feb 16 16:16:08 hmm, I seem to recall that an official source (Sean) at some point said that those buying this dev ed would get a discount of the mass market model; am I dreaming or does someone have a reference? Feb 16 16:16:24 mjr: there was talk about that Feb 16 16:16:29 interestingly, the guy that wrote qtnx is getting linux running on his HTC Universal phone--he wants to be able to run NX on it. ;) Perhaps he should just use a neo... Feb 16 16:16:37 nothing definitive afaik Feb 16 16:17:10 koen: I'm curios how much revisions will be between p0 and p2 phones Feb 16 16:17:19 koen, have you had any luck getting your images running under qemu or similar? I see it mentioned a lot but not that anyone has succeeded. Feb 16 16:17:28 Has anyone tried any bluetooth mating with in-car kits? Does it play well? Feb 16 16:17:42 hrw: hardware of software? Feb 16 16:17:47 koen: hardware Feb 16 16:18:08 jebba: I don't use qemu, I have enough real ARM devices :) Feb 16 16:18:22 ah, lucky you. ;) Feb 16 16:18:56 koen: looks like OH qemu-native would be good addon for OE :D Feb 16 16:19:31 *G* Feb 16 16:19:58 jebba: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/openmoko-running-on-an-ipaq Feb 16 16:19:59 i've got some way for a s3c2410 qemu Feb 16 16:20:55 * koen adds "And don't even think about contradicting me, I invented all this." to his list of drepperisms Feb 16 16:21:25 ah, I found his most definitive statement about discounts if hw revisions change: Feb 16 16:21:28 "If we come out with something cool we'll make sure you guys can Feb 16 16:21:28 get it at a discount if you already have a developers version. Feb 16 16:21:47 a 0% discount? Feb 16 16:22:35 I'm sure sean will try hard to get us a discount, but I wouldn't hold my breath Feb 16 16:22:49 koen: any reason openmoko would not run on an ipaq h3630 ? Feb 16 16:23:10 Kero: no real reason Feb 16 16:23:28 maybe it would be a bit tight on storage space Feb 16 16:23:31 Kero, what distro do you use to build for a 3630? Feb 16 16:23:32 Kero, yeah Feb 16 16:24:02 I mean, koen, yeah. Feb 16 16:24:10 * Kero has one h3630 with 32MB flash (the other has only 16 MB) Feb 16 16:24:16 * newmedian wishes USB was 2.0 on Neo, as would like to try using something like http://www.usbgear.com/USBG-SVGA2.html Feb 16 16:24:44 newmedian: I have one of those, I'm not really impressed with it Feb 16 16:24:53 mccarthy: nothing as of yet. I'll probably ask koen more details when I get to it :) Feb 16 16:25:10 mccarthy: if for some reason I wouldn't run apps on my PC instead Feb 16 16:25:16 koen: ahh, too bad. Would be nice if the Neo could take advantage of a full crt Feb 16 16:27:38 fluffs what do you mean? qemu-arm and xnest? Feb 16 16:27:52 xnest? Feb 16 16:28:01 are people still using that instead of Xephyr? Feb 16 16:28:33 Debian's xoo recommends xnest ;o) Feb 16 16:28:55 roh: got it to boot serial console so far Feb 16 16:29:08 fluffs ah.. ok Feb 16 16:29:25 its on my todo list once the patch submissions are over Feb 16 16:30:24 i wonder how much work it would need to hack a compatible hardware-emu for some devices like graphics and audio in qemu Feb 16 16:32:52 roh - GPS: forget it; gsm: hould be easy as an extermal program interfaing on a "serial line" with qemu. Rest: I have no idea. Feb 16 16:35:40 i get this error while using mokomakefile http://pastebin.com/882394 Feb 16 16:35:54 any pointer to fix this ? Feb 16 16:36:41 Elrond i know.. i see harald in person from time to time ;) .. when i'm done setting up my build-env i will take a look what it needs to write a device-emulation for the graphics stuff.. would be neat to hack on it for apps which do not hard depend on gps or real gsm. one could put a modem-emulation which only speaks at and 'no reception, no sim' stubs to befriend the drivers Feb 16 16:36:45 empty_mind: yes, you didn't read GettingStarted Feb 16 16:37:33 koen, i simply followed mokomakefile wiki page and building development environ. Feb 16 16:38:15 empty_mind: that doesn't matter Feb 16 16:38:27 you didn't read GettingStarted Feb 16 16:40:07 koen, yes, id didnt read GettingStarted you re refering to. I only read the docs pointed to me earlier in the day Feb 16 16:40:38 koen, i could not find any page titled GettingStarted in wiki. Feb 16 16:41:22 http://www.openembedded.org/wiki/GettingStarted Feb 16 16:42:23 koen, thnxs i am reading it now Feb 16 16:48:48 For a 'proper' GPS implementation that works with agpsd, you need to reverse engineer the hammerhead protocol, then feed it with simulated satellite dopplers over time. It probably makes a lot more sense to connect a NMEA GPS device, and have it warped to the normal output of GPS. Feb 16 16:49:25 Or of course, you don't really need a GPS device to simulate, you can controll it with the mouse, or feed it a predetermined track. Feb 16 16:49:57 Right. Feb 16 16:49:58 * koen sends slashgear a take-down notice Feb 16 16:50:11 stinking copyright infringers Feb 16 16:50:23 koen - huh? Feb 16 16:51:09 http://www.slashgear.com/openmoko-and-fic-neo1973-updates-153926.php <- notice any familiar looking screenshots? Feb 16 16:52:11 "We have new pictures Sean sent to us" Feb 16 16:52:44 Interesting. Feb 16 16:52:52 love the video. "We have open source lots of things these days". Feb 16 16:53:27 Isn't the artwork free as well? Feb 16 16:55:03 wow, those guys are fast Feb 16 16:55:09 hats of to slashgear Feb 16 16:55:35 much better as microsoft thailand Feb 16 16:55:58 The http://digg.com/linux_unix/Linux_based_iPhone_killer_available_online_in_March is sitting at 973 diggs Feb 16 16:55:59 MS thailand now has a goatse picture on they windows mobile section somewhere Feb 16 16:56:00 very fast indeed. ;-) Feb 16 16:56:54 hey dougt Feb 16 16:57:18 dougt: Xora debugged some more problems running mozilla stuff on ARM last week Feb 16 16:57:43 Does the phone realy comes in March? Feb 16 16:58:04 Late march. Feb 16 16:58:13 hi koen. Feb 16 16:58:13 According to all infgormation. Feb 16 16:58:15 Splendit :-) Feb 16 16:58:20 i really wanna see mozillla/minimo work well on the openmoko devices. Feb 16 16:58:41 it is much more inline with what the mofo is about than windows ce stuff. ;-) Feb 16 16:59:01 koen: are there bugz? Feb 16 16:59:15 koen, steps mentioned in GettingStarted are already executed in mokomakefile. see that step is failing while trying to checkout db Feb 16 16:59:23 (as in filed somewhere... i am not claiming there are none. :-) ) Feb 16 16:59:58 empty_mind: you still haven't read GettingStarted properly Feb 16 17:00:15 dougt: the bugs are at least in the debian and bsd bugtrackers Feb 16 17:00:47 empty_mind: search for '32' in the GettingStarted page Feb 16 17:00:55 * dougt wonders why. Feb 16 17:01:29 koen, well let me wait for rwhitby to wakeup before proceeding. mY aim si to test mokomakefile and not openembeded atthis time Feb 16 17:01:45 dougt: the double-to-int function in mozilla is a bit broken, since arm has weird word ordering for floats Feb 16 17:01:53 empty_mind: you can't test the one without the other Feb 16 17:02:02 well, you can test OE without the makefile Feb 16 17:02:17 koen: i think we have a patch for that somewhere. Feb 16 17:02:24 koen: it is a NSPR bug, right? Feb 16 17:02:58 dougt: we got this one from debian iirc: http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/mozilla/firefox-2.0.0.1/jsdtoa-float-type.patch Feb 16 17:03:13 empty_mind: the makefile doesn't absolve you from using common sense Feb 16 17:04:28 There should be a "sense" section in the Makefile, so you can just: make sense Feb 16 17:05:02 koen, thnxs for giving me knowledge. Feb 16 17:06:50 koen: any idea why this isn't a problem on other ARM devices running WinCE? Feb 16 17:07:40 dougt: maybe they have a dtoa libc function like bsd Feb 16 17:07:42 koen: is this a without FP problem only? Feb 16 17:08:15 dougt: no, it's an ABI problem, but it's a oneliner to fix Feb 16 17:08:25 yup. Feb 16 17:08:41 i will file a bug again the js lib, and ask brendan to look at it. Feb 16 17:10:18 * koen reads http://www.djlosch.com/article_Comparison%3A_iPhone_vs_A1200_vs_Neo1973 Feb 16 17:18:56 oh, I just read that Feb 16 17:20:24 not too shabby Feb 16 17:20:48 * koen still wants to use a phone primarily as a phone Feb 16 17:21:17 * shipman wants the phone to evolve and to replace laptops and desktops Feb 16 17:21:35 muahhhh Feb 16 17:21:54 * alphaone wants his phone to replace his nonexistant PDA Feb 16 17:21:55 What can I say? I have high ambitions Feb 16 17:22:02 or dreams Feb 16 17:22:19 shipman nice idea.. most so called phones which say they can do that cannot even be a proper phone.. hopefully that changes Feb 16 17:22:30 yeah Feb 16 17:23:06 * newmedian wants to avoid the response delay in command keypresses like you get on Symbian phones Feb 16 17:23:20 gah! can someone unblock my posting to openmoko-kernel Feb 16 17:23:31 (please) Feb 16 17:23:48 I can envision a time when a customer can come home to his desk, pop his phone into a dock, and be able to plugin in a VGA/DVI monitor and a mouse and keyboard and get a full functioning os Feb 16 17:24:01 that'd be fun Feb 16 17:25:27 and I'd love to see the neo1973 evolve into a device of that caliber within the next decade or so Feb 16 17:25:42 shipman come back in 5 years when computing power is small enough and cheap enough to make sth. like this possible... but do not wonder if you only have a few minutes battery-live then... batterys sadly did not really improve like other technologies did since li-pol Feb 16 17:25:56 yeah Feb 16 17:27:09 though I'm still thinking that while docked it would use a powercord and on the go use a smaller footprint phone OS Feb 16 17:27:20 that would save power Feb 16 17:28:06 and hopefully we won't be using li-pol in 5 years Feb 16 17:31:15 the phone to be released in september is the second generation? When is the first generation released? Feb 16 17:31:53 counter? Feb 16 17:31:54 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 5 days 17:54:43 (6.746 - 12.746 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, a week, 5 days (28.746 - 43.746 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, a week, 5 days (196.746 - 226.746 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (346) Feb 16 17:33:26 what's the difference between the release next month and the one in september? Feb 16 17:33:43 Li-poly is mostly irrelevant, the phone uses around 1W when full on - probably. You can't simply replace the battery with an awesome one and put it to 15W - it'll burn the user. Feb 16 17:33:47 TBA Feb 16 17:33:54 'in the coming months' Feb 16 17:34:01 Obviously more polished software. Feb 16 17:34:11 _probably_ camera and or wifi Feb 16 17:34:41 Oops. Feb 16 17:34:45 No, misread. Feb 16 17:34:57 The phones will be more or less identical, apart from small changes. Feb 16 17:35:17 The phone to be _announced_ in Sep may have camera and or wifi. Feb 16 17:36:29 SpeedEvil, will it be possible for someone to buy a phone without camra, assuming TBA phone has a camera? Feb 16 17:36:38 * SpeedEvil ponders if the carphone warehouse has patented animatronic legs on the phone. Feb 16 17:36:44 The current model has no camera. Feb 16 17:36:51 I wish the camera was removable and therefore upgradable :D Feb 16 17:36:56 The one released in Sep will not have a camera. Feb 16 17:36:57 the = a Feb 16 17:37:02 It would be nice. Feb 16 17:37:10 shipman, ++1 Feb 16 17:37:28 See [[expansion back]] on wiki.openmoko.org Feb 16 17:37:31 empty_mind: either ++ or +1, not ++1. ;-) Feb 16 17:37:32 A lot of places ban the use of cameraphones, particularly for security and modesty reasons Feb 16 17:37:34 then I should just order it next month Feb 16 17:37:42 maybe additional modules to use as a replacement to a camera Feb 16 17:37:58 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Expansion_Back Feb 16 17:37:58 like have a tiny HDD that would fit in the slot Feb 16 17:38:02 dougt, +1 ;-) Feb 16 17:38:29 I suppose you could do an expansion back with a battery and 1.8" HD. Feb 16 17:39:20 yeah Feb 16 17:39:32 I would hope that one difference between now and Sep would be better support for an expansion back - an extra connector with VCC+USB+2GPIO. Feb 16 17:39:45 I was thinking some system akin to the GBcolor and that camera it used though more sleek Feb 16 17:40:54 a centimeter thick back could easily have a camera and external SD slot. Feb 16 17:41:05 hey idea of AA or AAA powered battery is cool Feb 16 17:41:12 Yeah. Feb 16 17:41:19 I suppose Feb 16 17:41:56 i can envision a duracell ad saying your phone lasts long really long ;-) Feb 16 17:42:22 Or fuel cell. Feb 16 17:42:37 I've never been too much a fan of AA/AAA batteries myself Feb 16 17:42:46 encourages too much waste Feb 16 17:42:47 SpeedEvil, lets add solar cell too Feb 16 17:42:55 NiMH AA +++ Feb 16 17:43:02 yeah Feb 16 17:43:11 that's what I use Feb 16 17:43:26 There have recently been released a crop of NiMH cells that have self-discharge comparable with alkaline - 85% charge after a years storage. Feb 16 17:43:31 The Hybrio/Eneloop ones. Feb 16 17:43:37 though everyone else in the world seems to be less enlightened Feb 16 17:43:40 oh Feb 16 17:44:03 I may look into those as some of my NiMH's are losing charge Feb 16 17:44:17 yuk... i will never buy devices like phones with nimh or -cd again.. why should somebody Feb 16 17:44:38 Exactly Feb 16 17:44:45 Off-topic - http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1120 - 1W LED flashlight, $5. bought 5 :) Feb 16 17:44:58 err - why should somebody what? Feb 16 17:45:46 SpeedEvil: "Unfortunately, downloading an arbitrary video, and playing it will not be possible." not if you make some kind of tool that automatically reencodes it to something playable. Feb 16 17:45:53 well - yes. Feb 16 17:45:54 li-ion/poly are more expensive, yeah.. but also have much superior enery per space/weigth and are even high-current-discharge is doable afaik Feb 16 17:45:58 Real-time. Feb 16 17:46:15 Energy per unit volume is about a wash between NiMH and Li-Ion. Feb 16 17:46:41 loufoque: Well - yes, but not in real time. Feb 16 17:47:13 SpeedEvil the only reason some companys are selling nimh again is that they sucked on producing good li based ones and only go for cheap Feb 16 17:47:15 Energy per unit weight, Li-Ion is a clear winner. Feb 16 17:47:45 Li-ion can't do 1.5V output. Feb 16 17:47:55 so what? Feb 16 17:48:18 3.6 it can.. and thats ideal for supplying low-power electronics Feb 16 17:48:35 Sure - but not the vast array of 1.5V devices out there. Feb 16 17:48:47 Plus, most Li-ion cells are single device only. Feb 16 17:48:50 Which is annoying. Feb 16 17:49:06 Anyway, pointless discussing here, we're not arguing facts but opinions. Feb 16 17:49:20 Or rather preferences. Feb 16 17:50:27 SpeedEvil its a phone.. no kiddie-rc-car Feb 16 17:51:47 hmm, `mtn update` appears to be just hanging forever... Feb 16 17:52:49 one could do a li-ion standard format.. but that has to include the charging controller since it is mostly optimized for the exact type to prevent 'exothermic' behavior.. its not really a technical problem. and there are even some types widely used.. e.g. nokia ones for bluetooth-gps-recievers Feb 16 17:55:41 Li-ion AA and AAA cells are available. Feb 16 17:55:55 why can't we make a phone run on dreams and rainbows? Feb 16 17:55:56 These may cause some devices to die of course. Feb 16 17:56:00 AA takes place. Feb 16 17:56:14 but not to end-consumers. its just not responsible to sell such things unprotected by electronics Feb 16 17:56:21 To end consumers. Feb 16 17:56:44 http://www.dealextreme.com/ look for 10440 and 14550 - AAA and AA size li-ion. Feb 16 17:56:47 short it and sue them if you are in the US ;) Feb 16 17:56:56 Also dual-mode LED torches that can work for either. Feb 16 17:57:12 (higher power on li-ion.) Feb 16 17:57:56 Who was it that commented on my [[video player]] page - I've rewritten to make more sense now I hope. Feb 16 17:58:13 ah. Feb 16 18:00:26 reboot Feb 16 18:01:17 hey guys Feb 16 18:01:27 Hi Feb 16 18:01:30 There may be girls here too. Feb 16 18:01:35 Or FBI agents. Feb 16 18:01:42 LOL Feb 16 18:01:48 i wanted to ask something... is it possible to build OpenMoko from sources already? or all those pictures on Wiki are just mockups? Feb 16 18:02:09 yes. Feb 16 18:02:15 however, most pics are mockups. Feb 16 18:02:21 oh and do you think it is possible to build OpenMoko on some different PDA with ARM processor and 480x640 display? Feb 16 18:02:24 ok Feb 16 18:02:30 In princupole, sure. Feb 16 18:02:36 ok Feb 16 18:02:43 more eye-candy: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/theming-psplash-for-openmoko Feb 16 18:02:44 Do you have full hardware details is the fun question. Feb 16 18:02:46 because all PDAs come with this crappy windows mobile :-D Feb 16 18:03:41 There are projects out there to reverse engineer windows PDAs. But it's a horrible process. Vanishingly small numbers of devices have actual linux working fully. Feb 16 18:04:05 yeah Feb 16 18:04:12 is there any list of devices that work? Feb 16 18:04:20 i'm thinkg of buying Acer N311 Feb 16 18:04:26 linux-devices.com IIRC Feb 16 18:04:29 ah ok Feb 16 18:04:31 let me check Feb 16 18:04:32 or look on wikipedia. Feb 16 18:04:36 ok Feb 16 18:04:43 Often the page for the device will mention it. Feb 16 18:04:45 damn can't wait until end of year to get Neo1973 Feb 16 18:04:55 It's late march. Feb 16 18:04:56 so I would like to contribute my work too Feb 16 18:05:02 For unfinished software. Feb 16 18:05:03 late march where? europe also? Feb 16 18:05:10 Everywhere. Feb 16 18:05:16 but wait Feb 16 18:05:22 Anyone can order. Feb 16 18:05:23 you mean anybody can buy it in march? Feb 16 18:05:29 For $350. Feb 16 18:05:32 US Feb 16 18:05:33 but software won't be ready? Feb 16 18:05:50 well - it'll be a phone at least, and do most normal phone things. Feb 16 18:06:00 What of the rest will be finished is an interesting question. Feb 16 18:06:01 ah ok, that's fairly enough Feb 16 18:06:07 haha Feb 16 18:06:10 s/finished/working/ Feb 16 18:06:10 SpeedEvil meant: What of the rest will be working is an interesting question. Feb 16 18:06:11 i guess a lot Feb 16 18:06:12 since it's open Feb 16 18:06:19 It's open. Feb 16 18:06:37 But a actual physical device in the hand makes people more motivated IMO. Feb 16 18:06:37 yeah i can see hundreds of applications coming very soon Feb 16 18:06:42 yeah Feb 16 18:06:57 anyway what bothers me is missing wifi, that's why i wanted to buy PDA Feb 16 18:07:11 Yeah - that's an annoyance for me. Feb 16 18:07:15 bluetooth is fine, I can connect at home using Mac bluetooth Feb 16 18:07:17 I've decided I can live without it for bluetooth. Feb 16 18:07:26 but i read somewhere newer version might include wifi? Feb 16 18:07:35 The version in Sep will be the same as now. Feb 16 18:07:41 hmm that's a pity Feb 16 18:07:46 Then will be announced another phone with more features. Feb 16 18:07:58 because i can connect at thousands places with wifi Feb 16 18:08:02 Which may include wifi/camera/3g Feb 16 18:08:02 but only at home with bluetooth Feb 16 18:08:36 I'm going to be working on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Expansion_Back - to add wifi. Feb 16 18:09:08 koen, nice splash! ... and display is wow... huge! Feb 16 18:09:08 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Expansion_Back Feb 16 18:09:17 ok cool Feb 16 18:09:34 anyway to clarify OpenMoko Feb 16 18:09:48 Kaco: that's an ipaq, not a neo Feb 16 18:09:48 whole OpenMoko is a platform? and it includes kernel/x11 server etc? Feb 16 18:09:55 * koen adds a clarification Feb 16 18:09:55 koen, oh :) Feb 16 18:10:16 koen, but is it actually OpenMoko or just OM like splash? Feb 16 18:11:06 Kaco: OM like splash Feb 16 18:11:06 ok :) Feb 16 18:11:25 damn it Feb 16 18:11:39 i need wifi/vga pocket device now ... i will eat my fingers till march Feb 16 18:11:50 :() Feb 16 18:11:52 :) Feb 16 18:12:00 neo1973 doesn't have wifi Feb 16 18:12:11 i have LG subnotebook, but still it's too big and heavy compared to phone Feb 16 18:12:12 loufoque, i know Feb 16 18:12:14 nor does it have vga Feb 16 18:12:21 it has VGA resolution Feb 16 18:12:37 that's what I meant, since most PDAs has QVGA (240x320) Feb 16 18:13:08 loufoque, i might actually buy different device, but definitely I will try to switch it to OpenMoko Feb 16 18:13:43 I thought VGA only had 256 colors or something Feb 16 18:14:07 ah sure Feb 16 18:14:18 but with PDAs or smartphones they call resolution (640x480) ... err VGA :) Feb 16 18:14:30 many use VGA as the resolution of VGA onlky Feb 16 18:14:38 yeah Feb 16 18:15:11 anyway those mockups of UI looks perfect, but I'm afraid they can't be designed exactly same with GTK+ Feb 16 18:15:42 but still GTK+ looks very nice, but is wasting space a little bit Feb 16 18:16:32 why doesn't openmoko use an open codec for voice/audio instead of that Wolfson stuff? Feb 16 18:16:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QVGA Feb 16 18:16:52 :) Feb 16 18:17:55 The wolfson chip is simply A/D and D/A it doesn't get more open than that. Feb 16 18:22:47 http://www.1-click.jp ... LOL! Feb 16 18:31:26 heh. i always wondered how the mouse really worked. :-) Feb 16 18:36:11 back :P Feb 16 18:36:18 another kernel spinlock, yay Feb 16 18:45:11 I built a xoo for FC6 if anyone is interested: ftp://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/BLAG/linux/60000/en/os/i386/BLAG/RPMS.extras/xoo-0.7-0blag.fc6.i386.rpm Feb 16 18:52:12 * fluffs will be back later Feb 16 18:52:40 so I hear this is the place to come for developer info Feb 16 18:53:32 One of them. Feb 16 18:53:42 First have a read of wiki.openmoko.org Feb 16 18:54:53 SpeedEvil: don't suppose you know why they are using a LM4857 stereo amp when the WM8753 has amplified HP out and a .5W speaker driver? Feb 16 18:55:18 is there a tutorial explaining how to emulate the neo1973? Feb 16 18:55:35 loufoque: there are instructions on the wiki. Feb 16 18:55:46 Stereo speaker driver? Feb 16 18:56:04 Maybe that's it. Feb 16 18:56:20 prpplague: to drive a 1W speaker? ;) Feb 16 18:56:26 prpplague: what's cooking? Feb 16 18:56:38 koen: ssdd, just getting ready for a concept meeting Feb 16 18:56:51 koen: 1W speaker ? in the neo1973? Feb 16 18:56:57 i can just hear how the thing will sound if you drive it with 1w Feb 16 18:56:59 I have no idea Feb 16 18:57:23 Small speakers actually can take 1W quite well - for ones designed like that. Feb 16 18:57:23 koen: oh hehe Feb 16 18:57:32 SpeedEvil: I can only see building instructions, are those it? Feb 16 18:57:42 As the frequency goes up, the power they can handle without overloading rises. Feb 16 18:57:53 Unsure - I've never built it. Feb 16 18:58:00 * SpeedEvil is waitting for a new HD. Feb 16 18:58:01 well taking and sounding ok is a difference Feb 16 18:58:12 SpeedEvil: hmm, i've done some testing, and a .250W speaker does pretty darn good for most handheld apps, i can't imagin needing 1W Feb 16 18:58:21 prpplague: his regular speakers it's usually a good idea to overdimension the amp to get less artifacts and distortion Feb 16 18:58:21 Loud ringer. Feb 16 18:58:33 prpplague: but that's with kiloWatts :) Feb 16 18:58:58 They will not handle high power at low frequencies - the speaker bangs against the stop. Feb 16 18:59:00 prpplague: 1W ~ 100dB at 1 meters Feb 16 18:59:12 or 120dB Feb 16 18:59:16 As the frequency rises, they start to be able to handle more power. Feb 16 18:59:17 * koen forgot which it is Feb 16 18:59:28 100 is an efficient speaker. Feb 16 18:59:31 IIRC. Feb 16 18:59:55 92 or so is probably more realistic for the sort of speakers int he neo, peaking at 1-5Khz or so. Feb 16 19:00:47 hmm Feb 16 19:00:58 * prpplague wonders if he might need to consider using an amp Feb 16 19:01:17 Why? Feb 16 19:01:19 koen: hows things in your corner of the world? Feb 16 19:01:52 prpplague: rainy Feb 16 19:02:00 SpeedEvil: because me two current designs don't include an amp for the speaker out Feb 16 19:02:03 s/me/my Feb 16 19:02:05 prpplague: how's DFW? Feb 16 19:02:19 If it sounds OK for you, then it's fine. Feb 16 19:02:20 koen: cold cold cold, it was like -2C this morning Feb 16 19:02:50 prpplague: I wonder what powers the buzzer/vibrator Feb 16 19:02:50 SpeedEvil: yea, i think for the proto's i'll place some pads for an amp if i need it Feb 16 19:03:15 .25W only sounds a little fainter than 1W. Feb 16 19:03:43 koen: look on the dissasembly page. Feb 16 19:04:05 The vibrator is the thing in the middle of the case next to the transparent plastic with the speakers under Feb 16 19:04:06 SpeedEvil: yea, the TLV320AIC26 has .350W out and the WM8753 has .5W, so i figure it should be fine Feb 16 19:04:30 It's a little motor with an offset weight - which you can just see above it. Feb 16 19:04:53 It's powered probably from a transistor connected to the battery. Or maybe power supply. Feb 16 19:05:47 SpeedEvil: apparently the chinese market likes phones which are LOUD and DISTORTED to insane levels Feb 16 19:06:08 You don't have to drive the speaker as loud as the amp will take of course. Feb 16 19:06:26 XorA|gone: you can't appreciate music without clipping some sine waves Feb 16 19:07:44 * XorA|gone managed to almost kill himself and lrg with feedback by wrongly routing the audio in neo1973 Feb 16 19:07:54 :/ Feb 16 19:08:16 XorA|gone: cat /boot/initrd > /dev/dsp ? :) Feb 16 19:08:19 very nice Xor Feb 16 19:08:20 XorA|gone: it does 8kHz quite well? Feb 16 19:08:42 koen: it should do Feb 16 19:09:01 XorA|gone: do you know if it's possible to insert the CPU in both sides of the path? To do stuff like vocoders, or more interesting apps? Feb 16 19:09:02 koen: but all I really did is listen to some pounding techno and make a phone call Feb 16 19:09:16 SpeedEvil: totally possibly Feb 16 19:09:18 :) Feb 16 19:09:29 SpeedEvil: ring modulator is what you want Feb 16 19:09:38 Stuff like per-caller shrill voice repitching may be nice. Feb 16 19:09:46 EXTERMINATE, WE ARE THE DALEKS, YOUR CALL IS SPAM, EXTERMINATE Feb 16 19:09:57 All your base are belong to us. Feb 16 19:10:38 you can do some really irritating stuff like delay their voice 5 secs then send it back, most people stop talking when that happens to them Feb 16 19:10:39 XorA|gone: so audio from the mic can be processed before is being sent out on airwaves? Feb 16 19:10:46 dwery: yes Feb 16 19:10:57 Actually - not ring modulator, pitch bending is more complex than that. Feb 16 19:11:02 hey dwery Feb 16 19:11:03 Ring mod is fun too though. Feb 16 19:11:06 dwery: mic->capture->cpu->playback->gsm Feb 16 19:11:15 XorA|gone: that opens to interesting things.. Feb 16 19:11:35 hmm, i thought the WM chip had a sidetone generator Feb 16 19:11:35 dwery: but I will warn you there are 97 mixer controls on Neo Feb 16 19:11:39 For example, some people find high pitched voices hard to understand. Feb 16 19:11:41 XorA|gone: whoa! Feb 16 19:11:47 Due to hearing problems. Feb 16 19:12:02 that device truly amazes me every second.. Feb 16 19:12:28 XorA|gone: I misread that as AC97 the first 5 times Feb 16 19:12:42 The sad thing is that it's probably not an especially great device. Feb 16 19:12:52 It's just one that we can play with all the fun bits on. Feb 16 19:12:57 koen: nice to see you here :) Feb 16 19:13:21 SpeedEvil: what other chips were considered? Feb 16 19:13:35 prpplague: I'm in no way involved with the design. Feb 16 19:13:40 SpeedEvil: oh Feb 16 19:13:46 I just have designed portable audio stuff before. Feb 16 19:14:15 SpeedEvil: ahh ok, well we are looking at using the TLV320AIC series, mainly because of cost Feb 16 19:14:35 Yeah - that's an interesting and cheap family. Feb 16 19:14:36 how is video lookin on the neo Feb 16 19:14:49 Look at the wiki, under [[video player]] Feb 16 19:14:53 prpplague: please evaluate Wolfson parts Feb 16 19:14:55 ok Feb 16 19:15:05 counter Feb 16 19:15:05 P0: a week, 5 days 16:11:33 (6.675 - 12.675 days); P1: 28.675 - 43.675; P2: 196.675 - 226.675 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (347) Feb 16 19:15:10 Briefly, fullscreen is probably possible, but only with specially coded video. Feb 16 19:15:47 mencoder -vf scale=320:240,rotate=1 Feb 16 19:15:47 so somthing like corecodec Feb 16 19:15:48 will get something like 18fps with sound Feb 16 19:15:57 :) Feb 16 19:16:17 Nice to know my ballpark guess was spot on. Feb 16 19:16:18 mpeg1? Feb 16 19:16:30 SpeedEvil: mpeg4 Feb 16 19:16:42 mpeg4, sexy Feb 16 19:16:51 Is that with sound? Feb 16 19:16:55 oh Feb 16 19:17:34 SpeedEvil: I can play 23.997 fps on Neo now but mine runs at 200Mhz so we are slightly guessing what happens when it runs at full speed Feb 16 19:17:43 :) Feb 16 19:17:46 SpeedEvil: without sound Feb 16 19:18:16 It's likely then that with the optimal codec - whatever it is - it'll be quite possible then. Feb 16 19:18:22 :) Feb 16 19:18:31 SpeedEvil: and nothing clever being done in mplayer, there are some arm coding geniuses that have some ideas for making mplayer/ffmpeg much more arm friendly Feb 16 19:18:39 Great. Feb 16 19:19:02 btw.. may I ask which kind of connector is used for the external GPS antenna? Feb 16 19:19:16 what's the hit on software rotate? Feb 16 19:19:40 SpeedEvil: I already have all my video pre-rotate for zaurus, so I never checked Feb 16 19:19:55 dwery: there is a close picture on the dissasembly pics. Feb 16 19:20:12 SpeedEvil: can't see if is SMB or SMA or something similar Feb 16 19:20:17 Have you benchmarked mpeg1/mpeg4? Feb 16 19:20:29 And what sort of bitrate are you using? Feb 16 19:21:06 Ok - I'll update the wiki with that. Feb 16 19:21:11 SpeedEvil: I ignore mpeg1 as ffmpeg doesnt decode it at all efficiently, I use 400kbps for mpeg4 Feb 16 19:21:24 SpeedEvil: at 320x240 400kbps is fine Feb 16 19:21:27 Thanks. Feb 16 19:21:33 Esp with a 2.8" screen :) Feb 16 19:21:36 SpeedEvil: ty. I placed a not on the wiki about that. Feb 16 19:22:04 SpeedEvil: with that small a picture its not even worth 2 passing the video Feb 16 19:22:10 XorA: what aspect of the Wolfson part makes it more attractive than the TI part? Feb 16 19:22:26 prpplague: two linux engineers here Feb 16 19:23:04 XorA: ahh, well from what i'm seeing there is about a $4 to $5 difference in cost Feb 16 19:23:43 prpplague: you would have to contact our local sales offices for pricing, I only do driver support Feb 16 19:23:52 prpplague: what CPU are you planning on using? Feb 16 19:24:17 XorA: two designs, one with the S3C2410 and the other with the S3C2440 Feb 16 19:24:57 the poeple at Joost just realeased a new client last week and Corcodec was using far less CPU for full screen video and corecodec is supposed to be optimised for devices Feb 16 19:24:59 prpplague: that CPU is the ones I support, and wm8753 is pretty solid on those Feb 16 19:25:26 XorA: yea, i was looking at the posted patches yesterday Feb 16 19:25:50 XorA - what mpeg4 codec? Feb 16 19:25:52 SpeedEvil: ffmpeg Feb 16 19:25:56 http://www.corecodec.com/ Feb 16 19:26:02 K, finishing wiki. Feb 16 19:26:48 XorA: yea, major difference is that i couldn't find any of our normal suppliers who carried the wm8753 Feb 16 19:26:54 prpplague!! Feb 16 19:27:07 gw280: yes? Feb 16 19:27:17 prpplague: how are you these days? Feb 16 19:27:20 prpplague: Im afraid I have no idea of our supply chain, Ive only been in Wolfson 6 months Feb 16 19:27:26 prpplague: (I'm George in case you don't recognise me) Feb 16 19:27:33 gw280: oh, hey, doing ok Feb 16 19:27:43 prpplague: catch lrg online sometime, he is old school with Wolfson Feb 16 19:27:51 ahh ok Feb 16 19:28:00 * prpplague heads to meeting, bbiab Feb 16 19:28:54 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Video_Player updated. Feb 16 19:29:30 hello? im new a IRC Feb 16 19:29:45 sppeddevil check out what the guys at Corecodec are doing also Feb 16 19:30:20 maybe they will develop for openmoko Feb 16 19:30:26 what are they doing? Feb 16 19:30:39 produce closedsource videostuff Feb 16 19:30:54 based on opensource also Feb 16 19:31:07 bsd one? Feb 16 19:31:07 interesting Feb 16 19:31:14 Matt_PI: I have TCPMP on my windows mobile it is sweet Feb 16 19:31:36 mickeyl: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=192 Feb 16 19:31:37 they do matroska Feb 16 19:32:14 i thought they closed tcpmp Feb 16 19:32:34 bigbang14: hello - have a question? Feb 16 19:32:45 thresh: they did Feb 16 19:32:53 thresh: but the GPL source still kicks about Feb 16 19:32:55 no not really Feb 16 19:33:24 bigbang14: good idea to wander round wiki.openmoko.org if you haven't. Feb 16 19:33:34 i have Feb 16 19:34:31 Hmm. 26 in interested to buy list. Feb 16 19:35:27 i think this is an incredibly interesting project and if it had camera or even just wifi i might consider in investing in a later model (with internet browser) Feb 16 19:38:14 i suggested using EPD (maybe much later on) in the hardware wish list. if you've never heard of it i suggest you look it up. it had me entranced for hours thinking of the possibilities. Feb 16 19:38:36 fluffs: your message has passed. put you on the always-pass list Feb 16 19:40:03 you can find out more about it at www.eink.com Feb 16 19:41:26 when is the release data for neo1973? is there a fixed one yet? Feb 16 19:41:46 bigbang14: how does EPD work with colors? Feb 16 19:43:01 EPD? Feb 16 19:43:25 counter? Feb 16 19:43:25 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 5 days 15:43:12 (6.655 - 12.655 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, a week, 5 days (28.655 - 43.655 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, a week, 5 days (196.655 - 226.655 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (348) Feb 16 19:43:25 electronic paper display Feb 16 19:43:27 Ah. Feb 16 19:43:32 loufoque: im not actualy sure but i guess it could be done with differnt cells (cant think what theyre called) Feb 16 19:43:40 E-ink are bastards when it comes to actually getting them to commit. Feb 16 19:43:54 That has horrible prolems. Feb 16 19:43:55 how so? Feb 16 19:44:16 The nice thing with the black and white ones is that they are black and white, and don't need to be asccurately aligned over the pixels. Feb 16 19:44:36 With coloured pixels, you need to accurately align thm, which is a real manufacturing headacjhe. Feb 16 19:44:56 And it also makes the paper a third as birght, as much gets absorbed by the coloured filters. Feb 16 19:44:57 yes i can see how that would be a prob Feb 16 19:45:02 afk- bath Feb 16 19:45:33 however it is very energy saving and easy to read off Feb 16 19:45:54 low power is good:) Feb 16 19:46:18 ya, but no color is a bit more than just a small downside.... Plus it would have to integrate with a touchscreen as well.... Feb 16 19:46:24 what about LED? Shouldn't it use less power than TFT? Feb 16 19:47:05 you can get colour but its harder to manufacture Feb 16 19:48:13 welcome CIA-7 Feb 16 19:48:31 what does the wiki mean by widget? Feb 16 19:48:45 see wikipedia -> widget Feb 16 19:48:57 an artifial word Feb 16 19:48:58 based on Feb 16 19:48:59 window and gadget Feb 16 19:50:16 i meant in this particular context, how does openmoko use them? Feb 16 19:51:13 well Feb 16 19:51:18 common widgets define common look and feel Feb 16 19:51:31 hmm... Feb 16 19:51:35 making applications more integrated and usability less prone to being a surprise Feb 16 19:51:54 ahh Feb 16 19:52:01 thankyou Feb 16 19:52:57 and the applications will run side by side with the widgets, exchanging info? Feb 16 19:53:21 the applications are composed by widgets Feb 16 19:53:44 composed out of widgets Feb 16 19:53:45 not by Feb 16 19:54:02 morning Feb 16 19:54:08 see common look & feel for stylus apps as an example Feb 16 19:54:09 morning rwhitby Feb 16 19:54:22 what makes the widgets so universal then? Feb 16 19:54:30 overnight build fell over on openmoko-mainmenu :-( Feb 16 19:54:52 rwhitby: could you make your makefile parse the output of monotone --version and download the appropriate snapshot? Feb 16 19:55:03 ozamosi: yes, the mokomakefile should build the kernel now Feb 16 19:55:23 well, a widget is more than just an image. it comes with a programmatic class and a set of functions Feb 16 19:55:33 rwhitby: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=184 Feb 16 19:55:35 we use the term widget slightly different from MacOS Feb 16 19:56:49 i thought they where being used in a different way Feb 16 19:57:43 widgets exist in all GUI toolkits. Feb 16 19:58:36 Hmm - LuitvD says he found an error 5 hours ago, but didn't identify what the error was. Feb 16 19:58:46 would gnome and KDE be GUI toolkits Feb 16 19:58:54 rwhitby: lol, that's usefull... :P Feb 16 19:59:10 rwhitby: I think I'll see the error again in about an hour Feb 16 19:59:13 :P Feb 16 19:59:40 hmm, i've had `mtn update` running for a couple hours or so now... wtf? Feb 16 19:59:52 heh "make sense" - that's a good one. I just add that target for humour value :-) Feb 16 20:00:06 I noticed that openmoko often mentioned "Free Software" rather than "Open Source". Can someone tell me a bit about the motivations behind the creation of the device? Feb 16 20:01:14 is it possible to run a kind of mock-up of openmoko on you PC (expecting answer to be no) Feb 16 20:01:27 hey mickeyl (sorry for delayed response, was reading logs) Feb 16 20:03:19 koen: thx for the openmoko-mainmenu patch - I'll look at that today a bit later (my wife's bday today, so not a lot of hacking time) Feb 16 20:03:45 rwhitby: congrats Feb 16 20:03:54 congrats rwhitby Feb 16 20:03:58 grats Feb 16 20:04:11 thx Feb 16 20:04:25 that looks more like a hack than a patch Feb 16 20:05:12 kdean06: The definition of Open Source is slightly more restrictive than the one of Free Software. Feb 16 20:05:55 vrwhitby: search for pastebin from day ago: I got this error with following instructions; then used make update-makefile; make update; make: again got same error; now I'm running from make from empty directroy (still going); Fedora5:haven't yet looked more Feb 16 20:07:33 on what causes it (quick search from IRC logs, google, bugzilla, etc.. didn't give answer and haven't digged on it yet; maybe Feb 16 20:07:47 loufoque, Oh, I understand that, and I'm a member of the Free Software crowd. :) I was wondering if OpenMoko utilizes open source code (like Motorola does) or if it's indeed a Free Software initiative, to produce a Freedom filled device. Feb 16 20:08:12 aloril: do you have the pastebin URL handy? Feb 16 20:08:32 kdean06: I have no idea. Actually I don't understand all that very well myself. Feb 16 20:09:42 Okay. The press release mentioned January 2007 as the ship date, has this happened? Am I able to purchase the phone in the US yet? Feb 16 20:10:16 kdean06 no Feb 16 20:10:38 counter? Feb 16 20:10:38 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 5 days 15:15:58 (6.636 - 12.636 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, a week, 5 days (28.636 - 43.636 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, a week, 5 days (196.636 - 226.636 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (349) Feb 16 20:10:50 pjz already has solution : url by pjz: http://pastebin.ca/356360 Feb 16 20:11:00 rwhitby, what is the BBFILES according to your scripts and examples ? Feb 16 20:11:31 rob_w, I have no scripts and examples. Feb 16 20:11:52 sorry i meant your makefile Feb 16 20:11:56 I have a Makefile which codifies the existing page http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch - that's all. Feb 16 20:11:57 umm I mean I don't know if pjz has solution (in case somebody reads 2 previous lines from me separately) Feb 16 20:12:52 rwhitby: the mtn snapshots are version coded: http://www.openembedded.org/snapshots/ Feb 16 20:12:52 aloril: that's the same openmoko-mainmenu error I get, and which koen has a patch to the .bb for. Feb 16 20:13:16 koen: ok, I can get the Makefile to download the correct one based on that. thanks. Feb 16 20:13:46 Hmm - no 0.31 though - can you put a symlink in that dir for 0.31 ? Feb 16 20:13:58 rwhitby: yeah, I know and because I got this error by following it also, its of course no fault in Makefile; just fyi Feb 16 20:14:05 rwhitby: gives people a longer pull time, but avoids the 'no rpm/deb/tar for distro' Feb 16 20:14:14 koen: agreed Feb 16 20:14:33 * koen ssh's in and makes a symlink Feb 16 20:14:37 * rwhitby remembers when we had to wait for the whole db to pull the first time Feb 16 20:15:15 * mickeyl plays with ciabot Feb 16 20:15:15 seems i cant get BBFILES setup up correctly to include openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/*/*.bb Feb 16 20:15:34 pity mtn doesn't have a "mtn automate version" command to save me having to run awk ... Feb 16 20:16:53 rwhitby: symlinks present Feb 16 20:17:07 koen: thx muchly Feb 16 20:17:15 np Feb 16 20:17:54 rwhitby: if fully automatic fails too, nobody has found solution and I'm not 128x128 pixel limited I'l look into it Feb 16 20:18:03 what's the french translation of "buffering" ? Feb 16 20:18:40 'le royal buffering' Feb 16 20:18:42 how do you say realmedia in french? Feb 16 20:18:53 leventhal: you knew! Feb 16 20:19:58 koen: mokomakefile updated to grab version specific OE database. Feb 16 20:20:28 rwhitby: ah, OK there is already solution (sorry, should have checked on logs before continuing blabbing) Feb 16 20:20:56 is there an expected release date? Feb 16 20:21:06 bigbang14: openmoko has already been released Feb 16 20:21:06 counter? Feb 16 20:21:06 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 5 days 15:05:30 (6.629 - 12.629 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, a week, 5 days (28.629 - 43.629 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, a week, 5 days (196.629 - 226.629 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (350) Feb 16 20:22:26 bbiab - have to reboot Feb 16 20:23:04 sorry i meant neo1973 Feb 16 20:23:21 openmoko: 03mickey * r1021 10/trunk/oe/README: oe: add README Feb 16 20:23:25 yeha! Feb 16 20:23:29 here we are :) Feb 16 20:24:31 that was easier than i thought Feb 16 20:24:52 http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/openmoko Feb 16 20:24:59 is the plan to merge the openmoko svn straight into OE? Feb 16 20:25:12 jebba: it is already merged Feb 16 20:25:17 minus some small bits Feb 16 20:25:46 jebba: we consider OE upstream. eventually we will maintain our recipes and configurations directly in OE Feb 16 20:26:10 ah, because the "Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch" references the openmoko stuff. It will be great when it's all in once place (MHO....) Feb 16 20:26:43 yes, but that's currently not the priority Feb 16 20:26:56 we'll do that once phase1 has been started Feb 16 20:26:59 koen, ya, like DISTRO=openmoko doesn't work with straight OE. ok, thx mickeyl Feb 16 20:27:42 are there other topics for openmoko? Feb 16 20:27:43 jebba: DISTRO=openmoko requires a hack to base.bbclass which I don't want to add (yet( Feb 16 20:28:40 are you able to change the kernel in openmoko? Feb 16 20:28:53 yes Feb 16 20:28:59 good Feb 16 20:29:04 You can change almost everything. Feb 16 20:29:17 With the current exception of the agpsd daemon. Feb 16 20:29:26 what cant you change? Feb 16 20:29:36 ^ Feb 16 20:29:55 sorry, what does that do? Feb 16 20:30:06 It outputs GPS positions. Feb 16 20:30:16 There is little immediate need to change it though. Feb 16 20:30:25 can I use GPS for free? Feb 16 20:30:32 yes Feb 16 20:30:33 or do I need to subscribe to a service provider? Feb 16 20:30:39 Yes, GPS is free. Feb 16 20:30:47 See [[A-GPS]] on the wiki. Feb 16 20:31:22 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS Feb 16 20:31:40 * dwery will use it to geotag his photos Feb 16 20:32:00 With what external camera? :) Feb 16 20:32:32 D80 :) Feb 16 20:33:02 I have a little perl script wich takes a gps log and tag the photos based on timestamp Feb 16 20:33:25 * SpeedEvil wants... Feb 16 20:34:00 Nice. Feb 16 20:34:18 And of course, you can add voice annotation, though I suppose the camera can do that. Feb 16 20:34:24 tit works quite nicely.. but I have to carry a gps and a logger Feb 16 20:34:38 dunno if D*0 has voice, I think it hasn't Feb 16 20:34:39 so for now i just setup a angstrom against fic-gta01 and build the openmoko apps , right ? Feb 16 20:34:39 Ok, that was Job interview number 5 Feb 16 20:34:47 on tuesday I have job interview #6 Feb 16 20:34:48 hey dwery Feb 16 20:34:52 this is getting ridiculous Feb 16 20:34:56 rwhitby: hi ! Feb 16 20:34:57 The one annoyance that I have about my current camera inthat way is that it has a limited 5 seconds at minimum sound clip, so you can't take lots of pics. Feb 16 20:34:59 (dwery wrote the new RTC subsystem in the kernel) Feb 16 20:35:03 noidd: Good luck. Feb 16 20:35:19 thanks Feb 16 20:35:27 over 5 hours of technical interview Feb 16 20:35:29 insane. Feb 16 20:35:35 anyone would think this was google. Feb 16 20:35:48 SpeedEvil: my current camera ia a Nikon Coolpix 3700.. which has good voice clip capabilities, but would like to switch to a Nikon D80 soon Feb 16 20:36:18 * SpeedEvil is using a Sony DSC-P5, with a sticky shutter. I've got one off ebay to take apart, but the lens scares me. Feb 16 20:36:22 the D80 lacks gps input.. so I'll have to use the Neo ;) Feb 16 20:36:54 it's always a risky business Feb 16 20:37:14 I had to clean the lens of my Nikon LS200 scanner and it took me a couple of hours Feb 16 20:37:20 s/200/2000/ Feb 16 20:37:21 dwery meant: I had to clean the lens of my Nikon LS2000 scanner and it took me a couple of hours Feb 16 20:37:32 Cleaning is easy. Feb 16 20:37:49 Taking apart a variable zoom minature lens with autofocus is a whole new level of fun. Feb 16 20:37:58 If that's the scanner i think it is. Feb 16 20:38:22 Oh - it's not. Feb 16 20:38:31 Anyway - back to work. WAve. Feb 16 20:38:48 me too ! Feb 16 20:41:48 rwhitby, i am facing this error when using mokomakefile MISS NUDE GREAT PLAINS CONTEST Feb 16 20:41:51 oops Feb 16 20:42:21 sorry guys for the earlier post Feb 16 20:42:28 hope you will not kick me Feb 16 20:42:35 that was a mistake Feb 16 20:42:41 rwhitby, http://pastebin.com/882394 Feb 16 20:42:47 It is a rather unusual error though. Feb 16 20:42:55 * rob_w kicks empty_mind Feb 16 20:42:56 empty_mind: the makefile does lots of stuff, but won't help you win miss nude contest ... Feb 16 20:43:03 hehe Feb 16 20:43:13 rwhitby, i was reporting a spam Feb 16 20:43:34 and klipper kept older copy of string than the latest copy Feb 16 20:44:02 is this what they mean when they refer to 'string theory' ? ;) Feb 16 20:44:04 when you receive 120 spam messages you are supposed to be burnt Feb 16 20:44:06 aah feels good to delete some old oe tmp/`s , to clean up and restart freshly Feb 16 20:44:17 newmedian, i hope so Feb 16 20:45:14 rwhitby, even when i try to pull a latest copy from mtn problem is not solved Feb 16 20:46:27 empty_mind: read step #1 of http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile again Feb 16 20:46:28 empty_mind, this version of monotone .. maybe try mtn-0.32 Feb 16 20:48:40 empty_mind: or "make update-makefile ; rm OE.mtn* ; make setup" Feb 16 20:48:40 rwhitby, yup i read it and setup the environ as per instruction for denian Feb 16 20:48:52 s/denian/debian Feb 16 20:49:04 the makefile now downloads the correctly versioned OE database Feb 16 20:49:11 rwhitby, has it to something with me using debian testing Feb 16 20:50:24 ahh freed more then 13GB ,, Feb 16 20:50:52 rwhitby, done. make is now downloading new dn, lets see Feb 16 20:50:59 congrats rob_w Feb 16 21:17:16 The BCM2153 (broadcom) looks pretty interesting, ARM, HSDPA/EDGE/GPRS/GSM, multimedia goo (including camera support), video accelleration, USB 2, SDIO. They are hyping linux support in a press release too. Usually they've been not-so-supportive of linux. Feb 16 21:18:35 jebba -> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8890352981.html with java-co-prozessor Feb 16 21:18:51 jebba: broadcom donates hardware from time to time, but they aren't giving out docs or stuff Feb 16 21:19:11 woglinde: jazelle is quite old Feb 16 21:19:26 nearly all arm926 cores have it Feb 16 21:20:42 koen oh didnt knowe Feb 16 21:20:51 woglinde: no linux support though Feb 16 21:20:59 woglinde: you need to pay $$$$$$$$ to ARM to get docs Feb 16 21:21:02 koen hm I see Feb 16 21:21:43 maybe only $$$$$ Feb 16 21:22:20 just curios, ho thought of the name openmoko? Feb 16 21:22:36 openmojo was probably taken ;) Feb 16 21:22:52 as was a decent spell checker Feb 16 21:24:21 jebba: what special about the brcm one? doesn't it look pretty much like all other such bundles? Feb 16 21:27:34 the ones from samsung are pretty decent Feb 16 21:29:43 kimuSan^, just pointing it out as i came across the release. Seems to have lots of the features needed for openmoko, thats all :) Feb 16 21:31:00 jebba: ok. Feb 16 21:31:39 * kimuSan^ is not a big fan of broadcom, but that mostly due to professional reasons. Feb 16 21:32:51 theirs or yours? :) Feb 16 21:33:45 both I guess....or maybe their lack of professionalism. Feb 16 21:39:58 * fluffs returns Feb 16 21:40:05 * fluffs feels a lot better for having had a swim Feb 16 21:40:21 aloril: openmoko-mainmenu fixed - update makefile, make setup, rebuild Feb 16 21:40:35 although my back is going to complain for the rest of the evening Feb 16 21:50:12 rwhitby, no luck after make update-makefile. I receive this error "mtn: misuse: no such revision 'f499733e6db527846e1a48cf70f9862d6b3798ae'" . Feb 16 21:50:39 rwhitby: does the makefile do an mtn pull? Feb 16 21:51:16 rwhitby, which revision of db should i pull ? Feb 16 21:51:43 koen, yes it does, thats what i was trying to point to you earlier Feb 16 21:52:06 empty_mind: rm -rf openembedded ; make setup Feb 16 21:52:30 empty_mind: and read the monotone manual too, else no more answers. Feb 16 21:53:35 rwhitby, there is no openembedded dir created yet ? else i would have removed it before starting the pull Feb 16 21:54:01 empty_mind: make updat Feb 16 21:54:05 update Feb 16 21:55:05 koen: I've added a pull to the setup for this case Feb 16 21:58:46 mokomakefile build contines onto openmoko-session and beyond ... Feb 16 21:59:47 rwhitby: you might encounter http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=183 Feb 16 22:00:11 thx for the heads-up Feb 16 22:02:39 iirc the other bugs are fixed someway or another in moko svn Feb 16 22:09:04 hello Feb 16 22:12:38 do I need qemu 0.9.0 to boot the gta01 kernel? Feb 16 22:18:49 koen: added the simple-mediaplayer fix to mokomakefile Feb 16 22:19:20 you hit the bug? Feb 16 22:19:28 not yet. Feb 16 22:21:37 figured I'd do a pre-emptive strike. Feb 16 22:25:26 hi Feb 16 22:25:43 openmoko: 03laforge * r1022 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (24 files): Feb 16 22:25:43 openmoko: major restructuring of u-boot quilt patches, make them ready Feb 16 22:25:43 openmoko: for upstream submission. Feb 16 22:25:43 openmoko: * merge all GTA01 revisions into one big Neo1973 patch Feb 16 22:25:43 openmoko: * merge jbt6k74 and pcf50606 drivers into Neo1973 patch Feb 16 22:25:43 openmoko: * reorder patches to a more logical (rather devel history) order Feb 16 22:27:33 ah, good, CIA-7 is here. Feb 16 22:29:01 koen: I get a failure in openmoko-dialer now ... Feb 16 22:29:06 hello ! Feb 16 22:29:30 can someone help me with qemu+moko? Feb 16 22:29:34 any body knows why neo 1973 phone has not coming with edge ? Feb 16 22:30:07 rwhitby: no idea on that Feb 16 22:30:23 koen: np, thx - I'll look at it tonight or tomorrow. Feb 16 22:32:13 good evening Feb 16 22:32:16 guys Feb 16 22:32:30 evening Feb 16 22:32:31 http://rafb.net/p/sOfOTf70.html if anyone else is interested in the problem. Feb 16 22:32:55 rwhitby: eds-dbus was already built? Feb 16 22:33:19 nope Feb 16 22:34:33 I should be able to boot a virtual/kernel image produced by bitbake with qemu-system-arm, right? Feb 16 22:35:37 cia-7 is a commit log relay? Feb 16 22:35:41 accumulator: no Feb 16 22:35:43 aevin: yes Feb 16 22:35:58 handy :) Feb 16 22:36:21 exists a video presentation of the phone ? Feb 16 22:36:38 epsino: no, since it hasn't been released yet Feb 16 22:37:01 koen: any pointers? Feb 16 22:37:02 hm Feb 16 22:37:03 epsino: but you have seen the photos? Feb 16 22:37:06 openmoko: 03laforge * r1023 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (env_nand_oob.patch series uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch): reorder patches to facilitate easier submission Feb 16 22:37:09 I should test my memory Feb 16 22:37:12 ups Feb 16 22:37:12 yes, i saw Feb 16 22:38:29 why not edge ? Feb 16 22:38:33 koen: do you know which package provides libebook? Feb 16 22:38:38 rwhitby: OE has a fix now for openmoko-dialer Feb 16 22:38:42 rwhitby: yes, eds-dbus Feb 16 22:40:07 koen: thx, looking ... Feb 16 22:46:48 hmm - LaF0rge's patches to u-boot break the documented build procedure :-( (not his fault, the procedure is just brittle) Feb 16 22:47:14 it has a documented build procedure? Feb 16 22:47:15 wow Feb 16 22:47:32 bleh Feb 16 22:47:35 koen: the FIC openmoko build procedure, not the u-boot build procedure. Feb 16 22:47:55 I don't wanna make a patch to clean up u-boot in OE Feb 16 22:48:27 * rwhitby looks into how to remove u-boot from the build altogether until hardware arrives Feb 16 22:49:09 rwhitby: you can't :( Feb 16 22:49:19 rwhitby: not without changing the kernel recipes Feb 16 22:49:19 * rwhitby stops looking :-) Feb 16 22:49:20 any body know if exists a qemu image to run the software with this emulator ? Feb 16 22:49:47 epsino: why run it in qemu? Feb 16 22:50:18 it will display the same window as building it natively and using Xnest/Xephyr Feb 16 22:50:20 in order to view the software running Feb 16 22:50:38 [00:23] koen: it will display the same window as building it natively and using Xnest/Xephyr Feb 16 22:51:09 koen, exists another alternative ? Feb 16 22:54:14 so you just `MACHINE = "x86"` and run it in xoo (Xnest/Xephyr), if i'm understanding him correctly. Though directly in qemu would be cool so you wouldn't have to do two builds of everything. Feb 16 22:54:30 exactly Feb 16 22:59:54 hmm, so close: Feb 16 22:59:58 nand_read.c:57: error: ‘NAND_PAGE_SIZE’ undeclared (first use in this function) Feb 16 23:00:18 i built a bunch of .ipk fine, but died building uboot... Feb 16 23:01:31 perhaps `mtn update` was the cause though... Feb 16 23:03:55 * sixfeet ♫ Pilgrimz - farby barfly Feb 16 23:03:59 ^^ Feb 16 23:05:43 hmm... Feb 16 23:06:03 :) that's better Feb 16 23:06:50 LuitvD, GOOD evening :> Feb 16 23:07:12 guten nacht denis^da Feb 16 23:07:20 haha you won't get rid of me ;) Feb 16 23:07:34 LuitvD, cmon it is 1 am ;) Feb 16 23:07:53 so? that's "night" :P Feb 16 23:08:25 argh Feb 16 23:08:30 something in my network has gone phut Feb 16 23:08:45 fluffs: don't get me started about mine :P Feb 16 23:09:15 didn't know about this project .. very interesting stuff! :) Feb 16 23:09:18 hi by the way .... :) Feb 16 23:09:23 auch guten abend .. oder besser morgen ;) Feb 16 23:09:23 lnostdal: hello there... Feb 16 23:09:25 :P Feb 16 23:10:18 sixfeet: guten morgen... also... mehr deutsche leuten hier? Feb 16 23:10:20 :P Feb 16 23:10:34 klaro ... wer pro-linux liest Feb 16 23:10:44 :) Feb 16 23:10:51 kommen ja immer mehr news vom moko Feb 16 23:11:04 und ich brauch nen neues tel *g* Feb 16 23:11:13 ich habe 's gesehn aufs wiki Feb 16 23:11:20 hehe Feb 16 23:11:52 (und mein deutsch ist sonst schechter als mein english) Feb 16 23:12:08 * LuitvD is falling back to english... Feb 16 23:12:14 denke v2 wird zwar erst die features haben Feb 16 23:12:14 it appears somehow this patch didn't get applied: s3c2410-nand_badblock_skip.patch Feb 16 23:12:26 LuitvD, were do u are? Feb 16 23:12:40 nl? Feb 16 23:12:50 sixfeet: yup, utrecht, the netherlands Feb 16 23:13:09 hehe n1 my fav vacation-land Feb 16 23:13:20 sixfeet: how come? Feb 16 23:13:29 de Feb 16 23:13:47 nähe hannover Feb 16 23:13:51 sixfeet: how come the netherlands is your no 1 vacation land? Feb 16 23:14:04 what's so special about it? :P Feb 16 23:14:07 drugs Feb 16 23:14:19 parag0n: good guess... Feb 16 23:14:29 parag0n: that'd be your excuse right? :P Feb 16 23:14:36 LuitvD, go by car and about 3 hrs i can see the beach Feb 16 23:14:51 not so far .. and camping rulez Feb 16 23:15:14 sixfeet: you german got enough beach in your own country... why go to the netherlands for that? :P Feb 16 23:15:24 i like the people Feb 16 23:15:28 * LuitvD never understood german nl-tourists Feb 16 23:15:29 nah, i'm clean Feb 16 23:15:49 parag0n: so the dykes would be your excuse? :P Feb 16 23:15:59 LuitvD, my hobby is biken .. and so yours is my fav land Feb 16 23:16:21 i go by bike every way if i'm there Feb 16 23:16:26 parag0n: I hate drugs other then alcohol :) I'm glad dutch people can drink at the age of 16 :) Feb 16 23:16:41 too bad it's too cold to ride bike atm here Feb 16 23:16:47 i dont drink either Feb 16 23:17:10 bah, one of the switch ports on the 8port is dead Feb 16 23:17:20 sixfeet: ah... if I'd want to go mountainbiking I'd go to either belgium or germany :P Feb 16 23:17:43 ok nl is not god 4 downhill *ggg* Feb 16 23:17:44 fluffs: how on earth can you get that to happen? :P Feb 16 23:17:48 openmoko: 03laforge * r1024 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (6 files): Get rid of the 2617-backport-to-2620 for s3c2410fb (thanks to Ben Dooks and Arnaud Patard) Feb 16 23:17:51 +o Feb 16 23:18:12 sixfeet: indeed Feb 16 23:18:48 parag0n: you don't drink? :| Feb 16 23:18:50 LuitvD, try biking at the gardasee Feb 16 23:19:08 * sixfeet ♫ Tool - Intension Feb 16 23:19:11 sixfeet: I fucked up my bike lately... :P Feb 16 23:19:17 hehe Feb 16 23:19:50 me too : made singlespeed :/ Feb 16 23:20:10 This is kernel package version 10.066. Feb 16 23:21:39 being able to read german sometimes proves handy... Feb 16 23:22:21 proves handy? Feb 16 23:22:29 err .. ups Feb 16 23:22:42 sixfeet: it's sometimes quite usefull... Feb 16 23:22:55 I would say everyone who buys a V1 handy should get the V2 for free :D Feb 16 23:22:57 hmm ok Feb 16 23:23:18 OMFG, heise.de calls Moss-Pultz a cheerleader? :S Feb 16 23:23:24 haha :> Feb 16 23:23:31 gg Feb 16 23:23:34 * sixfeet ♫ Megadeth - Angry Again Feb 16 23:23:37 yeah cheerleader of open source :D Feb 16 23:23:52 denis^da: lol, that's absurd :P Feb 16 23:24:07 LuitvD, it is :P Feb 16 23:24:31 * LuitvD wonders what Sean would say about it :P Feb 16 23:25:15 linux-image-2.6.20-rc7_siX1_i386.deb Feb 16 23:25:24 LuitvD, I would prefer a Neo that is a bit thinner (DÃœNNER :D) and the width could b less ;> Feb 16 23:25:30 huh Feb 16 23:25:58 denis^da: mhh, the thickness is fine I guess... and why do you want it less wide? Feb 16 23:26:14 denis^da: you won't have 480x640 for nothing :P Feb 16 23:26:19 hmm ok the wideness is because of my pocket Feb 16 23:26:21 :> Feb 16 23:26:29 big display for gps Feb 16 23:26:34 thickness is op Feb 16 23:26:42 yeah I know Feb 16 23:26:46 lol, i think the device is even less wide then my pda... Feb 16 23:26:47 ok ok I have to buy it :D Feb 16 23:27:08 yeaht it is a bit less wide than the Palm TX Feb 16 23:27:19 the should start selling Feb 16 23:27:22 and thinner than the SE 700 I hava Feb 16 23:27:30 ja sollten sie :D Feb 16 23:27:31 denis^da: SE700? Feb 16 23:27:43 yeah Sony Ericsson 700i @ LuitvD Feb 16 23:27:49 ah :P Feb 16 23:27:52 * LuitvD googles Feb 16 23:28:07 ale büchse :P Feb 16 23:28:11 +t Feb 16 23:28:38 haha damals war es keine alte Büchse Feb 16 23:28:41 naja ok :D Feb 16 23:28:44 denis^da: lol, google shows me the consulta se 700 :P Feb 16 23:28:44 http://images.hifishop.cz/Orig_190/consulta_se_700.jpg Feb 16 23:28:46 :P Feb 16 23:29:09 that's a nice phone, that 700i :| Feb 16 23:29:17 meine samsung knäcke hat garnix Feb 16 23:29:30 shg a80 oder so ;) Feb 16 23:29:33 http://www.xonio.com/features/feature_12356322.html Feb 16 23:30:07 loool @ LuitvD Feb 16 23:30:12 eigentlich wollte ich ja mal ein kleines Handy aber wo ich nu den Palm ablösen kann und endlich Linux haben kann, nehm ich doch glatt wieder ein größeres Feb 16 23:30:35 sixfeet: try running linux on that se 700 :P Feb 16 23:30:39 nice to send sms (typo-like) Feb 16 23:30:43 one device is much better than two _> Feb 16 23:31:03 denis^da: well, in most appliances, yes Feb 16 23:31:03 without a touchscreen it sucks :> Feb 16 23:31:09 denis^da, aber mit den features is das ok Feb 16 23:31:19 * CoreDump|home is replacing his shitty branded-into-uselesness K700i w/ a neo... Feb 16 23:31:21 sixfeet, definitiv :> Feb 16 23:31:31 ok wifi fehlt leider noch Feb 16 23:31:42 joa aber das zieht halt Strom wie Hölle Feb 16 23:32:02 per taste anschalten wenn mans braucht Feb 16 23:32:06 * CoreDump|home kindly points out that this is an english channel Feb 16 23:32:07 mein Palm TX is mit Wifi so schnell leer Feb 16 23:32:16 switching Feb 16 23:32:19 to english Feb 16 23:32:20 ;) Feb 16 23:32:25 ;) Feb 16 23:32:38 * denis^da is making CoreDump|home happy :D Feb 16 23:32:48 * sixfeet points to some unknown words :P Feb 16 23:32:49 why would it have to be an english-only channel? hmm. bits are free. ;) Feb 16 23:32:51 denis^da: yeah, wifi really drowns your battery Feb 16 23:32:58 Bits are not free. Feb 16 23:33:08 SpeedEvil: not every bit... Feb 16 23:33:12 Non-reversible computation has a finite energy equivalent per bit. Feb 16 23:33:12 well, i think a few german works are near enough ;) Feb 16 23:33:23 would be nice to have a solar panel on the back of the neo... Feb 16 23:33:28 to power wifi Feb 16 23:33:31 :P Feb 16 23:33:37 accumulator, you had me with the first line Feb 16 23:33:37 This means that you can put a small dollar amount on the bit. Feb 16 23:33:40 yeah that would be nice :> Feb 16 23:33:40 ar=armenien? Feb 16 23:33:42 Well... Feb 16 23:33:49 but for what price ;) Feb 16 23:33:55 The problem with that is that when it's sunny, the sun is shining. Feb 16 23:34:03 And when the sun is shining, stuff gets hot. Feb 16 23:34:03 you'd have to hold the device in a quite odd way to have any profit of it Feb 16 23:34:11 that's not a problem :) Feb 16 23:34:16 solar could be part of a larger add-on back cover Feb 16 23:34:16 Leaving your neo in the hot sun is not a good idea. Feb 16 23:34:37 ahhh thats SpeedEvil from the wiki :> Feb 16 23:34:41 Say 50mm*50mm solar cell, that's 1/400th of a square meter. Feb 16 23:34:54 jebba: yeah, but how would you have to use your device to get the solar cell to pick up some sunlight? :P Feb 16 23:34:59 -that +there is Feb 16 23:35:09 yeah and a vacuum-cleaner inside Feb 16 23:35:14 Which intercepts around a couple of watts of sunlight, which converts to maybe a third of a watt of electricity. Feb 16 23:35:24 ok, i'll just be content with it as a beer opener ;) Feb 16 23:35:32 what the hell should be in a phone? Feb 16 23:35:39 Everything. Feb 16 23:35:48 The TARDIS module needs perfecting. Feb 16 23:35:49 my 24" flat panel Feb 16 23:35:54 jebba: i'd rather have a modified back-panel to host a full-size SD card then a modified backpanel to host beer opener :P Feb 16 23:35:58 a complete workstation you doc into a panel & connect keyboard. ;) Feb 16 23:36:01 jebba, screw the beer opener, you want a microbrewery Feb 16 23:36:09 heh Feb 16 23:36:15 my digicam makes better pics and i try to phone with this thing Feb 16 23:36:17 The back panel to do a full-size SD is quite simple. Feb 16 23:36:26 I want a cigarette lighter in it. and a beer opener too Feb 16 23:36:36 It's just a flat cable, that slots into the existing SD socket, and connects to a larger socket. Feb 16 23:36:59 accumulator: I want a deodorant-spray in it (A) Feb 16 23:37:04 ehehe! Feb 16 23:37:08 good one Feb 16 23:37:14 To do more requires USB, which would be a whole lot nicer with an internal copy of the external USB connector. Feb 16 23:37:31 accumulator: for 2 purposes... smell good, and make massive flames :) Feb 16 23:37:31 look at most tests ... the telephon options aren't usefull for them .. but games aso Feb 16 23:37:36 IMO the neo got the best hardware (except WiFi of course) covered. From what I read, a faster CPU would have been nice Feb 16 23:37:56 Well - recent reports coming in to this channel indicate that video works. Feb 16 23:37:57 i have a flashlight in my crappy fone and it's really convenient... Though the LCD with a 640x480 white screen may be a flashlight itself. Feb 16 23:38:01 LuitvD: deodorant and lighter in one Feb 16 23:38:02 CoreDump|home, full ak Feb 16 23:38:13 accumulator: precisely Feb 16 23:38:27 24fps half-resolution mpeg4 ffmpeg on stock mplayer with no sound. Feb 16 23:38:37 accumulator: I'll build an API for that :P Feb 16 23:38:39 SpeedEvil, do people make microsd to sd adaptors? Feb 16 23:38:45 does this ARM chip have any mpeg accelleration built in? Feb 16 23:38:50 parag0n: not that I'm aware of. Feb 16 23:38:53 jebba: no. Feb 16 23:39:19 isn't the purpose of each pin exactly the same on microsd as on SD ? Feb 16 23:39:20 parag0n: it's not a complex product to make, I'd probably make one from a microSD card, butchered. Feb 16 23:39:21 echo 1 > /sys/flamthrower/enabled Feb 16 23:39:26 LuitvD: yes. Feb 16 23:39:44 SpeedEvil: they do make microSD > SD adapters... Feb 16 23:39:58 they give you one with almost every micro-SD card :P Feb 16 23:40:00 LuitvD: Sure - but probably not that will fit onto the phone. Feb 16 23:40:02 maybe a couple of grams of high explosives, and a detonator.. might be nice against thieves Feb 16 23:40:07 accumulator: lol :) Feb 16 23:40:31 accumulator: you've already got all the ingredients for that... Feb 16 23:40:41 accumulator: a Lithium-Ion battery ;) Feb 16 23:40:46 Alas, the flamethrower thing could be too close to home. Feb 16 23:41:17 hehe the Nukia battery Feb 16 23:41:31 echo "SIG_OVERHEAT" > /sys/battery/chargestatus Feb 16 23:41:31 :P Feb 16 23:41:36 and woosh Feb 16 23:41:39 :) Feb 16 23:41:51 It's gotta make that 'exploding phaser' sound. Feb 16 23:42:03 accumulator: got a nice vid of a laptop battery going *woosh* Feb 16 23:42:19 LuitvD: have seen some on youtube Feb 16 23:42:39 Just wish that fuel cells were mature. Feb 16 23:42:43 jep Feb 16 23:42:46 me too Feb 16 23:42:51 this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmPm-YV9vdA&eurl= Feb 16 23:43:12 :) that one is SOOO NICE Feb 16 23:44:09 Hmm - interest list up to 30 in a day. Feb 16 23:44:25 I hope that'll never happen to my devices... :P Feb 16 23:45:05 very nice Feb 16 23:45:24 * SpeedEvil wonders if the battery used is a widely available one. Feb 16 23:45:39 1200mAh is pretty standard Feb 16 23:46:04 I was meaning size-wise. Feb 16 23:46:13 As in - is it widely available on ebay. Feb 16 23:46:21 Or $40 per from FIC. Feb 16 23:46:27 I know. 1200mAh comes in lots of sizes Feb 16 23:46:46 that's what I meant :) Feb 16 23:47:54 what battery unit goes into the FIC neo? Feb 16 23:48:08 Hmm. Feb 16 23:48:13 could it be a HL-5001? Feb 16 23:48:16 I can measure the battery off the image. Feb 16 23:48:32 looks like the battery I've got in my camera... Feb 16 23:48:40 got a spare battery for that too :) Feb 16 23:49:09 (those spares are only 30 bucks... hope the neo spare-batteries are about the same price... Feb 16 23:50:04 the wiki says nothing about the battery AFAIK Feb 16 23:51:37 all I found out is that it's a 1200mAh battery... Feb 16 23:51:55 * fluffs will go to bed soon Feb 16 23:51:57 and either lithium-ion or lithium-polymer... Feb 16 23:52:21 or lithium-citrate... perfect to keep away the mood swings Feb 16 23:52:42 always happy Feb 16 23:53:16 I make the battery 52*38mm. Feb 16 23:53:19 +-1mm Feb 16 23:53:48 Assuming the exterior dimensions of the neo I found are correct - at least the X and Y dimensions cross-check to within 1% Feb 16 23:53:50 SpeedEvil: what, you've got a device there? Feb 16 23:53:54 No. Feb 16 23:54:04 SpeedEvil: then how do you know? :S Feb 16 23:54:06 I've got a case image, the published size of the device, and xv. Feb 16 23:54:09 PCB layout? Feb 16 23:54:14 ah Feb 16 23:54:15 okay Feb 16 23:54:46 hmm, it's about the standard size of a 1-cell Lithium battery Feb 16 23:54:47 fluffs: Why sleep, you're in a good sending-patches mood. :) Feb 16 23:55:03 mine's 35x53 Feb 16 23:55:44 fluffs: You think about gta01 mach in 2.6.21? Feb 16 23:56:27 * rwhitby removes u-boot from mokomakefile build and gets past openmoko-dialer ... Feb 16 23:56:28 Does the connector to yours start approximately 3mm in from the edge, with around a 2.5mm edge spacing, with three vertical contacs? Feb 16 23:56:47 stefan_schmidt: possibly Feb 16 23:56:59 certainly the bits that 2.6.21 is going to support Feb 16 23:57:00 The 53 number is much harder than the 38 - I'm assuming things there. Feb 16 23:57:03 fluffs: would be nice Feb 16 23:57:15 Anyway. Feb 16 23:57:38 SpeedEvil: 3 contacts, first one starts 5mm from the edge, 3 mm wide each, 3mm spacing Feb 16 23:57:48 Interesting. Feb 16 23:57:57 possibly a match. Feb 16 23:58:01 though i think the contacts are on the wrong side of the battery XD Feb 16 23:58:08 Oh well. Feb 16 23:58:15 *takes a good look at the pictures Feb 16 23:58:54 SpeedEvil: meh, contacts on the wrong side :P Feb 16 23:59:05 SpeedEvil: just as I thought... Feb 16 23:59:27 I suppose real volume has hit when compatible batteries pop up on ebay for $5. Feb 17 00:00:31 SpeedEvil: you can always try to build your own batteries... Feb 17 00:01:07 So we know, wether these are standard batts or neo-specific ones? Feb 17 00:01:13 No. Feb 17 00:01:17 i mean... get some cheap, high-capacity li-po cell from china, make a good housing for it, and you've got yourself a battery Feb 17 00:02:03 Elrond: no battery is device-specific... it's the hull that makes it device specific... Feb 17 00:02:20 From some part of the wiki I guessed up, that the battery has some internal safety sircuits, so that developers can't break it too easily. Feb 17 00:02:35 the internal circuitry is all the same, the cell in it is the same in every batt... Feb 17 00:02:57 * alphaone is rewiring his old 12V 12Ah notebook lead acid battery to fit Neo's needs Feb 17 00:02:58 Elrond: all batts have internal safety circuitry Feb 17 00:03:04 Hmm. 3*AAA batteries fit in the battery space, with around 4mm sticking out. Feb 17 00:03:21 s/have/should have/ Feb 17 00:03:26 alphaone: a notebook with a 12Ah lead-acid batt? :| Feb 17 00:03:38 The cells come in _many_ sizes. Feb 17 00:03:54 Some more common than others. Feb 17 00:03:57 SpeedEvil: not that much... Feb 17 00:04:23 the RC-battery pack for my robot as exactly the same cells as my camera batteries Feb 17 00:04:27 LuitvD: Yeah, the old LiIon died on me so I soldered long wires on the plus and minus contacts of the notebook and had a (heavy) battery in my backpack. Feb 17 00:04:47 But it lasted for hours Feb 17 00:04:48 There are common - cheaper - cells, though you can get any size if you've got the volume. Feb 17 00:04:57 alphaone: that's nice :) what's the lifetime of a notebook on that beast? Feb 17 00:05:10 * LuitvD likes lead-acid batts Feb 17 00:05:11 * SpeedEvil has a backup battery bank, comprised of 12 dumpster-dived 12V car batteries. Feb 17 00:05:53 LuitvD: About 7h, but that was on my old Sony Vaio. I didn't want to ruin my X40 yet :-) Feb 17 00:05:55 good night guys Feb 17 00:05:55 Will run my laptop+ADSL modem for a couple of weeks :) Feb 17 00:06:17 night Feb 17 00:06:18 alphaone: how nice :) Feb 17 00:06:20 Good night. Feb 17 00:06:23 And the extended battery gives me the same lifetime - at reduced weight. Feb 17 00:06:23 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery_Charger Feb 17 00:06:23 denis^da: 'night Feb 17 00:06:34 zu spät Feb 17 00:06:36 The warning box suggests, that they have done some battery internal stuff? Feb 17 00:06:52 Elrond: that's a non-specific warinng.. Feb 17 00:07:11 lol, my n went for a walk? :P Feb 17 00:07:11 LuitvD: The vaio had only 1.5 - 2h Feb 17 00:07:27 alphaone: most laptops do... but how on earth did you kill a sony vaio battery? :S Feb 17 00:07:51 alphaone: thought those were indestructible Feb 17 00:07:51 i thought those were the exploding ones Feb 17 00:07:59 *G* Feb 17 00:08:05 There needs to be an option to enable charging from 'dumb' USB hosts. Feb 17 00:08:05 no those were the Dell ones Feb 17 00:08:10 LuitvD: By using it. It was more that 3 years old by that time Feb 17 00:08:14 Sony manufactuered the dell ones Feb 17 00:08:14 SpeedEvil - 100mA. Feb 17 00:08:18 manufactured them too Feb 17 00:08:32 No that was before Sony made them explosive Feb 17 00:08:32 By that I mean 'USB chargers' Feb 17 00:08:33 alphaone: how do you use your batteries? discharging down to 40%? Feb 17 00:08:43 SpeedEvil - And you can force 500mA. Feb 17 00:09:02 At the end the battery was barely enough to keep the Vaio in suspend for more than 1 day Feb 17 00:09:10 Yeah - there have been really annoying devices that would not charge at all. Feb 17 00:09:10 Elrond: you should try getting 0,5A out of a single USB connector :P Feb 17 00:09:17 It's not hard. Feb 17 00:09:24 Most will supply it. Feb 17 00:09:29 for a second or two... yes Feb 17 00:09:32 :P Feb 17 00:09:33 Most decent hardware that is. Feb 17 00:09:36 0.5A is the spec. Feb 17 00:09:40 According to the wiki, every desktop pc gives 500mA on primary usb ports. Feb 17 00:09:47 no, 0,25A should be the spec Feb 17 00:10:00 0.25A however is not the spec. Feb 17 00:10:03 LuitvD: More like down to 10-20% Feb 17 00:10:24 alphaone: 40% is the optimal charge to go back up again Feb 17 00:10:34 and it's the best charge to store it ;) Feb 17 00:10:39 according to OM-wiki, 100mA are there always. so 250mA negotiable sounds stupid. Feb 17 00:10:39 In the fridge. Feb 17 00:10:46 40% in the fridge, indeed Feb 17 00:10:51 LuitvD: Okay, will keep that in mind. Feb 17 00:11:17 if y're not using a lithium battery for a while, it's best to discharge to 40% Feb 17 00:11:21 500mA per port... we always fit current limiters to our USB ports,m which tend to trip at 550mA to 590mA Feb 17 00:11:37 it could increase the lifetime by years :) Feb 17 00:11:50 Many '4 port' cheap powered hubs or PC cards don't do seperate, but fit a 2A polyfuse. Feb 17 00:11:58 PCI cards. Feb 17 00:12:04 Does anyone know how the power charger (500mA) is detected? Feb 17 00:12:14 alphaone: it isn't Feb 17 00:12:16 ecerything only if the supply supports it ? Feb 17 00:12:53 sixfeet: Generally - the worst - the absolute worst that can happen if it goes wrong is the power supply current limits, or the USB bus powers off. Feb 17 00:13:01 alphaone: you just enable it if you're certain about the possibility of dragging 500mA Feb 17 00:13:04 500mA is in the spec, it seems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power_supply Feb 17 00:13:31 "Initially, a device is only allowed to draw 100 mA." Feb 17 00:13:32 :P Feb 17 00:13:32 The wiki says the openmoko only drains 100 or 200 mA at the beginning and then negotiates via USB Feb 17 00:13:35 Unless you've bought a belkin Tetrahub, that decides it'd like to put out 9V. Then you get flame. Feb 17 00:13:41 :( Feb 17 00:13:52 SpeedEvil: Whoa Feb 17 00:13:52 SpeedEvil: what? :| Feb 17 00:13:54 SpeedEvil: nice... Feb 17 00:14:02 I only lost a wifi dongle. Feb 17 00:14:06 SpeedEvil: how on earth do they sell those things? :P Feb 17 00:14:24 Maybe they also sell new wifi dongles :-) Feb 17 00:15:12 alphaone: lol Feb 17 00:15:12 reboot test Feb 17 00:15:39 Then there was the other 'broken by design' hub. The power supply '5V 0.5A - sort of - outputted 5V. At rest it was 6V, with 0.5V of ripple. With 0.3A of load, it varied from 2.5-4V at 100Hz. There was no input filtering capacitor. Feb 17 00:15:54 heh Feb 17 00:16:04 alphaone - Yes. But you can force 500mA on the neo. Feb 17 00:16:15 Elrond: Right Feb 17 00:16:52 plugging the neo into a suspended USB bus and doing that will stop the suspend state though. Feb 17 00:17:10 Suspend is 'trickle' power to hubs to keep state and monitor plug/unplug. Feb 17 00:17:21 I was thinking about a lead acid battery powered mobile charger Feb 17 00:17:37 Car charger makes sense. Feb 17 00:17:43 I wonder how those usb chargers on other phones work? Feb 17 00:17:48 Well. Feb 17 00:17:51 I guess it would be okay if I have to enable 500mA drain on the neo Feb 17 00:17:59 A substantial fraction of them have a resistor. Feb 17 00:18:04 And that's it. Feb 17 00:18:15 I mean, customers don't select "I really use the supplied charger, go for 500mA"-option on the phone. Feb 17 00:18:19 Motorola's is that way Feb 17 00:18:46 With a resistor I mean Feb 17 00:18:50 hmm, maybe it's nice to build a docking-station for the neo... Feb 17 00:18:59 The charger just treats the USB as a source of 5V, and draws as much as it needs. Feb 17 00:19:01 with some extra usb-functions :) Feb 17 00:19:03 That would be nice Feb 17 00:19:15 I suggested that in the expansion dock article. Feb 17 00:19:19 it'd be a very easy one... I could even make one myself Feb 17 00:19:27 SpeedEvil: where? Feb 17 00:19:31 Large contacts on the back, to support a drop-in dock Feb 17 00:19:32 the MokoMakefile seems to take a very long time to setup...anybody considered posting a tgz of it to get people launched? Feb 17 00:20:17 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Expansion_Back Feb 17 00:20:23 SpeedEvil - So those phones wouldn't like your 9V-kill'em hub? ;) Feb 17 00:21:58 SpeedEvil: I think I can even create that myself... maybe even get the USB leads down there... Feb 17 00:22:36 Other thing: Are 100mA better for battery life? Feb 17 00:22:43 * mjr eyes his usb adapters, muhahaha Feb 17 00:22:44 Elrond: yes Feb 17 00:23:00 slow charging is better Feb 17 00:23:30 the slower you charge, the more charges you can get in there Feb 17 00:23:43 LuitvD: Yeah - hacking it is easy. Making it so that users can easily change the backs is harder. Feb 17 00:23:52 SpeedEvil: lol, true Feb 17 00:24:12 Elrond: also, discharging slowly is also better then draining rapidly ;) Feb 17 00:24:14 LuitvD - Hmm, so I will like the 100mA charging... despite 12h. ;) Feb 17 00:24:35 Elrond: I think I'll just charge overnight... Feb 17 00:24:43 once in 3 days or something... Feb 17 00:24:54 I hope it's more than 3 days... Feb 17 00:24:57 Have there been any mentions of current battery life? Feb 17 00:24:58 every time I notice that the battery level is below 40% Feb 17 00:25:30 Elrond: it's better to make the battery level hover around 40% then to fully charge and discharge ;) Feb 17 00:26:09 though, it's always good to have a nice charge, so draining to 40%, and fully charging again would be the nicest option Feb 17 00:27:04 Yep. And that should hopefully last a week. Feb 17 00:27:13 But I doubt it. :-| Feb 17 00:27:14 always usable (you practically never run out of battery...) and good for your battery too... Feb 17 00:27:38 * SpeedEvil wonders how hard the LCD is to dissasemble. Feb 17 00:27:55 Elrond: who cares... you come home, look at the battery status and decide wether to drop it in the charger, or just drop it on your desk... Feb 17 00:27:57 For the 'one LED on in the corner of the backlight' idea. Feb 17 00:28:20 SpeedEvil: why would you want to disassemble? Feb 17 00:28:29 why one led? Feb 17 00:28:29 what? Feb 17 00:28:31 where? :P Feb 17 00:28:39 Turn on one LED in the corner of the backlight. Feb 17 00:28:39 hehe Feb 17 00:28:45 To add status information. Feb 17 00:28:50 hmm... Feb 17 00:28:51 Rather than having to turn on them all. Feb 17 00:28:53 a red one? Feb 17 00:29:01 No, one of the backlight LEDs. Feb 17 00:29:07 lol Feb 17 00:29:08 LuitvD - I always drop my phone on the desk. ;) Feb 17 00:29:12 ah, okay Feb 17 00:29:26 Elrond: lol, and if it's drained? Feb 17 00:29:33 drop it on your desk and plug it in? Feb 17 00:29:33 LuitvD - Does the number of charging reduce battery life? Feb 17 00:29:45 It's more total charge and discharge amp-hours. Feb 17 00:29:50 Elrond: battery life is measured in number of charges :P Feb 17 00:30:01 Right, if it's 20%, I'll plug the carger in the wall socket. ;) Feb 17 00:30:09 50% charge/discharge will get you half the cycles that 25% will. Feb 17 00:30:42 SpeedEvil: not completely true... Feb 17 00:30:57 No, not completely false either. Feb 17 00:31:13 Hmm, so plugging to my PC in the evening and hacking on it... or just leaving it there, while I do other stuff... shouldn't hurt too much. Feb 17 00:31:41 50% charge/discharge cycles are less hard on your batteries then 75% Feb 17 00:31:41 In any case - the battery will probably last well over a yer. Feb 17 00:31:52 LuitvD: other way round I meant. Feb 17 00:32:02 SpeedEvil: I reckon it'll last well over 3 years... Feb 17 00:32:03 charge/discharge by 25%/... Feb 17 00:32:09 SpeedEvil - My phones current battery lasts for 5 years or so. Feb 17 00:32:10 SpeedEvil: okay :P Feb 17 00:33:06 lol, my old M35i phone had a stupid 'battery maintenance' function XD Feb 17 00:33:25 clearly the Siemens developers didn't know how a Lithium battery works Feb 17 00:33:54 their battery 'maintenance' would first completely drain, and then completely charge the battery XD Feb 17 00:34:02 fully draining a lithium-cell is BAD Feb 17 00:34:12 stupid siemens engineers Feb 17 00:34:14 * fluffs wonders if he gets a prize for most posts to openmoko-kernel Feb 17 00:34:29 fluffs: you allways win prizes... Feb 17 00:34:36 LuitvD - My ME45 doesn't do that. And the battery is now 5 years old and works very nicely still. Feb 17 00:34:53 * fluffs bets dhl will turn up 8am Feb 17 00:34:53 Elrond: does it have a 'battery maintenance' mode? Feb 17 00:34:58 fluffs - I wonder, if I'll get an answer on my om-kernel post. ;) Feb 17 00:35:14 LuitvD - No idea. I wouldn't use it. :) Feb 17 00:35:26 Elrond: i think the M35 was the first and only device doing that... because they realized it wasn't that 'maintaining' :P Feb 17 00:35:39 it was more like killing the battery :P Feb 17 00:36:00 if I'd hack the firmware I'd rename it to "Battery Bashing mode" :P Feb 17 00:36:04 I like my ME45 :-) Feb 17 00:36:44 those old siemens phones are quite rugged :P Feb 17 00:37:02 you can juggle with them, and fail, without destroying your device :P Feb 17 00:37:13 right, time to get some sleep Feb 17 00:37:17 current phones can't even handle a drop from 10 cm high... Feb 17 00:37:36 fluffs: I should be saying that... Feb 17 00:37:43 it's 2:11 am here... :S Feb 17 00:37:48 rugged neo. ;) Feb 17 00:38:21 Elrond: i think it's far from rugged... compared to some old siemens and nokia devices... Feb 17 00:39:25 01:12am here... and today I did 1Km swim Feb 17 00:39:25 I meant: There should be a rugged edition of the neo ;-) Feb 17 00:39:31 anyway, goodnight all Feb 17 00:39:36 hey, i've dropped my Treo 600 a few times, and its previous owner dropped it many many more Feb 17 00:39:38 Night fluffs Feb 17 00:39:49 it survived smashing my tablet PC's screen by accident Feb 17 00:40:21 natetrue: did your tablet-pc survive it? :P Feb 17 00:40:28 fortunately yes Feb 17 00:40:40 lol, why are you glad about that? Feb 17 00:40:41 the screen had a piece of anti-glare glass in front, to protect against scratches Feb 17 00:40:47 ah :P Feb 17 00:40:50 that was all that broke, fortunately Feb 17 00:40:55 LuitvD: Hey again. Did you get it to finish the build? Feb 17 00:40:57 i replaced it with plate glass from a hardware store Feb 17 00:41:20 what happened was i'd thrown my treo onto my bed, but i missed due to a momentary lapse of coordination Feb 17 00:41:30 it bounced off, and smashed its antenna against my tablet screen Feb 17 00:41:30 CM: nope, my kernel is unstable today... had 3 spinlocks today :P Feb 17 00:41:49 CM: I'll boot into my old kernel tomorrow and try again Feb 17 00:41:57 LuitvD: Heh, 2.6.20? Mine fails on db3-native anyway Feb 17 00:42:03 natetrue: nice :P Feb 17 00:43:39 damn, need to get some rest... Feb 17 00:43:42 i just found this project through make magazine Feb 17 00:43:50 tell me, how will text entry work? Feb 17 00:43:52 Night people. Feb 17 00:43:57 night Feb 17 00:43:57 I've been programming my robot for 3 hours straight now... Feb 17 00:44:06 natetrue, sounds like a heart-stopping moment Feb 17 00:44:09 got to get some sleep Feb 17 00:44:10 oh it was Feb 17 00:44:13 I've been drinking beer for 5.. ;) Feb 17 00:44:19 * CM sleeps Feb 17 00:44:25 lol Feb 17 00:44:30 5 weeks? :P Feb 17 00:44:35 free beer commences in 15 minutes here Feb 17 00:44:43 i know how you feel, i always get depressed after finishing an invention Feb 17 00:44:53 http://cre.ations.net/creation/the-goo-fountain just published today Feb 17 00:45:12 yet somehow i still do it Feb 17 00:45:12 like last week, when i put my chair leg on top of my powerbook, then sat on it Feb 17 00:45:18 eww... Feb 17 00:45:18 oh man Feb 17 00:45:23 how did you manage that Feb 17 00:45:28 huge dent in the lid, but the screen is fine :D Feb 17 00:45:32 that is nasty... a goo fountain Feb 17 00:45:33 whew Feb 17 00:45:37 it was charging, on the floor next to my desk Feb 17 00:45:54 the goal with the goo fountain was for it to be gross-looking but still interesting Feb 17 00:45:59 like, the goo is odorless and tasteless Feb 17 00:46:13 but somehow it's still 'icky' Feb 17 00:46:24 natetrue: it should be green-ish though... Feb 17 00:46:25 :P Feb 17 00:46:31 i thought about that Feb 17 00:46:36 I have considered manufacturing chocolate fountains. Feb 17 00:46:39 i have fluorescein which makes the acid green color Feb 17 00:46:48 cool Feb 17 00:46:52 With melted chocolate, in the form of a famous internet image. Feb 17 00:46:54 but i didn't think it would look good with the wood Feb 17 00:47:11 SpeedEvil, gross Feb 17 00:47:19 yet intriguing... Feb 17 00:47:28 aaah, that bubbling is gross :P Feb 17 00:47:46 i was surprised how long it continued to boil after i took it out of the microwave Feb 17 00:47:50 SpeedEvil: BUH, YUCK Feb 17 00:47:57 natetrue: lol Feb 17 00:50:14 well... going to sleep now... Feb 17 00:50:17 bye y'all Feb 17 00:50:18 good night Feb 17 00:50:26 i'm going to play some wii! Feb 17 00:50:33 natetrue: :( Feb 17 00:50:43 * LuitvD is jalous Feb 17 00:50:44 no, it's a happy thing Feb 17 00:51:34 Better goo. http://www.west.net/~science/slime.htm Feb 17 00:53:01 The thickened water has no tensile strength, you really want something that forms long strings for optimum ikkyness. Feb 17 01:45:04 | dates_navigator.c:24:47: error: libedataserver/e-data-server-util.h: No such file or directory Feb 17 01:45:20 (latest failure in mokomakefile build) Feb 17 01:46:34 Looks like stuff is being staged into staging/arm-linux/include/evolution-data-server-1.4/ Feb 17 01:46:34 and won't be found there. Feb 17 01:51:42 nope, that's not it. that path is on the cmdline Feb 17 01:53:59 e-data-server-util.h is missing from that include dir Feb 17 01:56:36 rwhitby: Wasn't there a patch that removed that include? Feb 17 02:00:57 rwhitby, anyway to get your makefile to allow `make -j4` or whatever? Feb 17 02:02:40 jebba: no idea. Feb 17 02:03:03 alphaone: got a URL? Feb 17 02:04:56 rwhitby: It's in openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/openmoko-dates/compile-fix.patch Feb 17 02:05:25 hmm - wonder if my svn problem caused that not to be applied. Feb 17 02:05:47 No idea. Feb 17 02:05:58 It is referenced in the .bb Feb 17 02:06:03 sorry, rhetorical question :-) Feb 17 02:07:31 :-) Feb 17 02:08:34 hmm - it's not referenced in the documented svn version Feb 17 02:09:26 at some point the documented build procedure is gonna need to step forward from svn rev 1004 ... Feb 17 02:11:37 will sort that out tonight. Feb 17 02:11:40 * rwhitby goes to bday party. Feb 17 02:14:37 have fun **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Feb 17 02:59:57 2007