**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 17 02:59:57 2007 Feb 17 03:16:59 cool answer: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Q: Who is eligible to buy a Neo1973 in Phase 1 (developer phase)? Feb 17 03:18:51 aloril: right :) Feb 17 03:19:22 new quick answer added: Feb 17 03:19:25 faq? Feb 17 03:19:25 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Feb 17 03:19:54 so anytime somebody asks question answered there, you can answer using above line Feb 17 03:26:05 why aren't there any photos of someone holding the neo1973 Feb 17 03:27:48 some articles linked from have image of somebody holding Neo1973: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Press_Coverage Feb 17 03:27:50 ah Feb 17 03:27:53 found one, http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/first-look-the-antiiphone-openmokos-neo1973-236841.php Feb 17 03:28:00 nick count records (pruned list): 106 2006-12-04; 116 2006-12-20; 134 2007-01-11; 157 2007-01-15; 182 2007-01-17 ; 197 2007-01-20 ; 201 2007-01-21; 211 2007-01-25; 219 2007-02-01; 228 2007-02-05; 231 2007-02-06; 238 2007-02-13; 247 2007-02-14; 251 2007-02-15; 261 2007-02-16 Feb 17 03:29:46 i always said you know a successful open-source project when their freenode chatroom has lots of people Feb 17 03:44:09 moved page up in channel list: http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&query=&num=20 Feb 17 03:45:03 wow Feb 17 03:45:07 lots of people here. Feb 17 03:46:12 yeah, and it just keeps growing ;-) Feb 17 03:46:20 that's kinda exciting Feb 17 03:46:31 this is the kinda project i've been looking for for quite a while. Feb 17 03:59:51 * aloril is a bit surprised that /. and digg both have not covered source release (there are low level diggs and one bigger dig, but that is not link to source): http://www.digg.com/search?s=moko&submit=Search§ion=news&type=both&area=all&age=7&sort=new Feb 17 04:08:00 I'm just trying to get a development environment together. Feb 17 04:09:25 following this? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Feb 17 04:09:40 haven't gotten there Feb 17 04:09:52 least, not yet Feb 17 04:09:53 still working on getting a clean install done. Feb 17 04:10:00 :) Feb 17 04:10:14 sorry, I was a release engineer back in the day. I like clean environments Feb 17 04:10:29 well, build/release Feb 17 04:10:30 in another life. Feb 17 04:22:18 my MokoMakefile build failed at: db3-native-3.2.9-r2 Feb 17 04:22:54 mutex.h:647: error: expected specifier-qualifier-list before 'tsl_t' Feb 17 04:47:57 btw.. this is quick way to get some feel: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC Feb 17 04:52:01 nice to see autotools adding a little bit of order finally :) Feb 17 05:14:25 time to test this backup in anger Feb 17 05:14:37 since I just blew away my RAID array by accident :-P Feb 17 05:27:08 jebba: is your build from scratch following http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ? Feb 17 05:27:40 LaF0rge: Neat, just saw about 2.6.20. Do you think that dynticks (which Linus just pulled) will help battery life? Feb 17 05:36:48 if gprs_works and phoning_works and sms_works and updating_everything_except_uboot_safely_works: ship_it_to_me ;-) Feb 17 05:37:38 this is kind of funny and common comment (from Digg): 'Why do all Apple product "killers" attempt to mimic Apple products? ' ;-) Feb 17 05:37:46 it seems many don't know that Neo1973 was announced first Feb 17 05:44:31 copying them from the future is still copying Feb 17 05:46:29 hehe Feb 17 05:50:54 linux booting up in actual finished Neo1973: http://popsci.typepad.com/popsci/2007/02/up_close_and_pe.html Feb 17 05:53:11 the curiosity is killing me Feb 17 05:53:26 what color scheme are the p0 and p1 phones going to have Feb 17 05:53:42 we've seen both white/orange and black/grey in the wild now. Feb 17 05:54:20 lol, CRC errors Feb 17 05:54:30 tasty errors Feb 17 05:55:26 seems that black/silver is demoed for (Linux) geeks and orange is demoed for others Feb 17 05:55:52 I'm still not 100% sure what I think of the lanyard hole tho Feb 17 05:55:54 * aloril would be surprised if p1 didn't include black/silver option Feb 17 05:56:26 lanyard? wasn't that bottle opener? ;-) (yeah I know it will include lanyard in packet) Feb 17 05:56:55 its tempting to attemt a casemod to do that ;-0 Feb 17 05:57:11 You know, its time for "noidds law". Feb 17 05:57:27 Instead of "All applications evolve until they can read email" Feb 17 05:57:43 "All phones evolve until they can open a bottle of beer" Feb 17 05:58:32 * aloril wonders why it didn't boot into X11 Feb 17 05:58:45 it was a dev snapshot Feb 17 05:58:51 could be any of a thousand reasons Feb 17 05:58:53 that was a server-already-running error, which was odd Feb 17 06:00:07 Sean should have logged in and removed /tmp/.X0-lock ;-) Feb 17 06:01:54 i so want one of these phones Feb 17 06:02:13 i must have one! Feb 17 06:04:13 hmm.. maybe using console at the moment requires bluetooth (or powered USB hub + USB keyboard) Feb 17 06:05:01 i suppose the phones don't have an old-school serial console then? Feb 17 06:06:12 meaning db9 connection? Feb 17 06:06:26 natetrue: there is hackers lunchbox Feb 17 06:06:26 not necessarily Feb 17 06:06:28 there is an ability to do that, yes Feb 17 06:06:37 you mean rs232 right? Feb 17 06:06:42 at PC levels Feb 17 06:06:42 timing-wise yeah Feb 17 06:06:48 not necessarily voltage-wise Feb 17 06:06:48 ie, +12/-12 Feb 17 06:06:52 not +5/-5 Feb 17 06:06:54 Yes, there is Feb 17 06:07:01 i'm used to 0-3.3v ttl at rs232 timings Feb 17 06:07:20 which is what i used when i dealt with wrt54g-compatible routers Feb 17 06:07:23 Well, converters are trivial using the maxi232 surface mounts Feb 17 06:07:38 and converters are entirely unnecessary with cell phone usb-serial adapters Feb 17 06:07:54 what does this lunchbox consist of? Feb 17 06:08:01 pie? Feb 17 06:08:11 we don;t know for sure yet Feb 17 06:08:11 in case you haven't seen: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debug_Board Feb 17 06:08:23 but we *suspect*, the debug board Feb 17 06:08:23 ah, see aloril Feb 17 06:09:26 well.. quite likely "Hackers lunchbox"==Debug_Board, but.. there has been no official word about it yet Feb 17 06:09:45 (I think some Sean mail did mention Hackers lunchbox and JTAG at same time or something like that) Feb 17 06:09:58 yeah i saw that somewhere too Feb 17 06:10:08 just need to open phone and you can use debug board with any Neo1973 Feb 17 06:10:56 looks like the connectivity is via one of those flexible circuit cables Feb 17 06:10:58 which is kinda scary Feb 17 06:11:10 they're pretty hardy Feb 17 06:11:16 is there need for one if you are not 1) doing hardware hacking 2) not writing uboot (and thus risking bricking) ? Feb 17 06:11:38 once the software is stable i bet not Feb 17 06:11:41 * aloril thinks you can change kernel without risk of bricking it for example Feb 17 06:11:49 I agree Feb 17 06:11:57 so long as you can interact with the bootloader Feb 17 06:12:16 i spent some time on the OpenWRT project, and i learned that there are different levels of bricking Feb 17 06:12:22 hmm.. there was recently added USB support to uboot? (or something like that) Feb 17 06:15:24 well.. I think in case of Neo1973 overwiting uboot without non functioning one would need JTAG for unbricking Feb 17 06:15:38 yeah Feb 17 06:15:50 and also if your kernel was bad, and you couldn't access the bootloader to flash a new one Feb 17 06:16:20 i'd bet there's some mechanism whereby you can load a new kernel onto the micro-sd card and boot Feb 17 06:16:36 or even always load the kernel out of the SD card Feb 17 06:17:03 aloril, yes, this was a build from scratch following MokoMakefile on debian etch Feb 17 06:17:10 bbiab Feb 17 06:19:03 natetrue: I think there is already or will be support for loading kernel (or doing whole boot) out of SD card Feb 17 06:19:26 i know uboot supports it Feb 17 06:19:30 the Neuros OSD does that Feb 17 06:19:36 er, you can tell it to Feb 17 06:19:44 though you configure that using a serial console Feb 17 06:24:38 in case of Neo1973 I think you can do this using USB (I recall mention of this, could recall wrong) Feb 17 06:25:33 heh, in the wiki there's mention of the neo having an accelerometer Feb 17 06:29:47 * neclimdul gives the build on pc thing a shot Feb 17 06:30:23 natetrue: in wishlist or somewhere else? Feb 17 06:30:53 "Computer Mouse" Feb 17 06:31:09 i guess it's filed under wishlist Feb 17 06:32:26 * aloril wonders who is going to be first one rebuilding OpenMoko in Neo1973 ;-) Feb 17 06:32:53 aloril: first Feb 17 06:33:02 aloril: who starts will be first who finish :) Feb 17 06:33:21 * dottedmag wonders how many months it takes to rebuild openmoko in neo :) Feb 17 06:35:12 7.5h reportedly on PC, so.. multiply that by hmm 100x or 1000x? Feb 17 06:35:49 heh Feb 17 06:35:55 if you don't run out of RAM Feb 17 06:36:10 swap ;-) Feb 17 06:37:03 * aloril wonders what is speed ratio of Recent PC / Neo1973 (reportedly similar in speed to 100Mhz Pentium) Feb 17 06:42:52 so how many people actually have neo1973's now? Feb 17 06:43:55 7.5 hr?! the frame work took like 1min Feb 17 06:45:53 plus, seems like this might be a good place for a crosscompiler setup? Feb 17 06:48:45 natetrue: probably maybe only 4 (including people inside FIC) Feb 17 06:49:00 wow Feb 17 06:49:01 i hope you can use make -j 2 Feb 17 06:49:11 neclimdul: it compiles whole distribution, including crosscompiler Feb 17 06:49:31 heck distcc-cross wouldn't hurt ;) Feb 17 06:50:18 aloril: ah, cool Feb 17 06:50:36 hmm.. with distributed compiling neo can compile it, just use bluetooth to distribute compilation (to PC ;-) and download compiled binaries back Feb 17 06:50:51 that is the best idea i have heard, ever Feb 17 07:19:03 hi all. :) Feb 17 07:19:17 a little question: did some one tried to use MokoMakefile? Feb 17 07:20:33 any one alive here? Feb 17 07:21:06 i am but sorry, i can't help you :) Feb 17 07:21:13 besides moral support Feb 17 07:21:16 hang in there! Feb 17 07:21:29 :) Feb 17 07:28:33 valed: still compiling (started from scratch today with latest one) Feb 17 07:30:14 cool Feb 17 07:30:40 I'm stuck on the downloading from OE part. Feb 17 07:30:54 rwhitby: you might want to look above at comments by jebba (db3-native-3.2.9-r2 and debian etch lines) Feb 17 07:31:06 trying to figure out what did I miss... Feb 17 07:31:30 its 100MB, will take a while? Feb 17 07:32:17 well, when use just wget from cli it works, but makefile fails to connect to the site of OE Feb 17 07:37:52 does some one know what the 'mtn' means in the Makefile? I think this is the reason the Makefile fails at my station. Feb 17 07:38:22 is it monotone for OE? Feb 17 07:41:31 mtn --version Feb 17 07:41:31 monotone 0.32 Feb 17 07:41:38 check that you have above version Feb 17 07:41:57 yep. compiling it. :) Feb 17 08:54:22 mornin' Feb 17 08:54:45 hey LuitvD Feb 17 08:54:58 hello koen Feb 17 08:55:31 * LuitvD was wondering... how to type in a tty? on the fic neo... :P Feb 17 08:56:01 bluetooth keyboard? Feb 17 08:56:02 would a terminal-mouse service + on-screen terminal keyboard be possible? Feb 17 08:56:05 powered usb keyboard? Feb 17 08:56:09 serial keybaord? Feb 17 08:56:25 meh, I want it on the device... Feb 17 08:56:33 not on some peripheral Feb 17 08:56:54 koen: the best one would be telepathic keyboard. Feb 17 08:56:59 I don't think having raw tty access is in FIC's goals for the neo Feb 17 08:57:34 koen: nope, but for some developers (the ones hacking X11?) Feb 17 08:57:41 it would be usefull... Feb 17 08:57:59 and I know I'd like to have some sort of raw tty shell... Feb 17 08:58:26 tty or a terminal emulator? Feb 17 08:58:29 what shell will be used? bash? Feb 17 08:58:35 no bash Feb 17 08:58:40 busybox Feb 17 08:58:52 koen: raw shell, no graphic interface + virtual terminal... Feb 17 08:59:05 serial console or ssh over bnep Feb 17 08:59:26 serial console... Feb 17 08:59:41 is there a way to get to the serial port pins?? :P Feb 17 08:59:50 use the debug board Feb 17 09:00:04 koen: hmm, yeah... Feb 17 09:00:05 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debug_Board Feb 17 09:00:11 what's the price of that thing? Feb 17 09:00:33 free for p0 devs? Feb 17 09:01:21 meh, I'm not a p0 dev am I :P Feb 17 09:03:25 and I don't think I can become one, now can I? Feb 17 09:05:04 nope Feb 17 09:07:39 jebba: db3-native failed for me too. See: http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1765 Feb 17 09:48:17 * LuitvD is off to install ubuntu 7.04 Feb 17 09:48:42 * LuitvD will be back asap :P Feb 17 10:12:28 hi all Feb 17 12:05:55 openmoko: 03laforge * r1025 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-core.patch: Feb 17 12:05:55 openmoko: * set minimum resolution to 240x320 (needs LCM SPI support, though) Feb 17 12:05:55 openmoko: * set minimum bit depth to 1 Feb 17 12:06:30 openmoko: 03laforge * r1026 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-core.patch: get rid of commented-out 3rd uart definition Feb 17 12:08:21 openmoko: 03laforge * r1027 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-core.patch: Feb 17 12:08:21 openmoko: Tidy the initialisers in mach-gta01.c and use named Feb 17 12:08:21 openmoko: initialisers for the struct Feb 17 12:08:21 openmoko: Signed-off-by: Ben Dooks Feb 17 12:10:01 a quick question - what is the maximum transfer rate of the GPRS in the Neo1973? Feb 17 12:10:22 good question, haven't really seen that anywhere Feb 17 12:10:51 openmoko: 03laforge * r1028 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-core.patch: Feb 17 12:10:51 openmoko: Remove the IORESOUCRE_MEM flags from resources that are GPIO Feb 17 12:10:51 openmoko: Signed-off-by: Ben Dooks Feb 17 12:10:59 we know it's not edge, but that still leaves a bit of leeway Feb 17 12:11:09 2.5G, not EDGE - odes that mean that the transfer rate is the same as with the original gprs or something better? Feb 17 12:11:19 original gprs Feb 17 12:11:49 but as said, there are differences in how many timeslots a gprs device can use, so it depends a bit Feb 17 12:12:01 not a lot, but a bit Feb 17 12:12:56 Hi @ll Feb 17 12:13:17 okay, so definitely less than 100kbit/s anyway? Feb 17 12:13:21 Hadaka, correct Feb 17 12:13:42 okay, thanks Feb 17 12:15:00 it can theoretically get up to 80kbit/s downlink, if it's a multislot class 8 or 10-12 Feb 17 12:16:57 same uplink if it's class 12. Wouldn't count on it. Feb 17 12:17:27 openmoko: 03laforge * r1029 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-core.patch: (log message trimmed) Feb 17 12:17:27 openmoko: The use of IORESOURCE_MEM is an potential bug wrt to Feb 17 12:17:27 openmoko: the platform driver which ensures that the ranges Feb 17 12:17:27 openmoko: for IORESOURCE_MEM and IORESOURCE_IO are available Feb 17 12:17:27 openmoko: when the device is registered. Feb 17 12:17:28 openmoko: Temporarily remove IORESOURCE_MEM flag until either they Feb 17 12:17:32 openmoko: can be removed by moving to the hardware SPI driver Feb 17 12:20:19 can't easily find it on the web Feb 17 12:21:15 I'll just check the logs later if one of the developers in the know happen to answer :] Feb 17 12:22:33 openmoko: 03laforge * r1030 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-core.patch: Feb 17 12:22:33 openmoko: The board_size for hard SPI was being set Feb 17 12:22:33 openmoko: from the wrong value. Also remove & from Feb 17 12:22:33 openmoko: the pointers to the board_info. Feb 17 12:22:33 openmoko: Signed-off-by: Ben Dooks Feb 17 12:25:28 openmoko: 03laforge * r1031 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-core.patch: Feb 17 12:25:28 openmoko: There should be no need to call spi_register_board for either of the s3c24xx Feb 17 12:25:28 openmoko: drivers as they both register the devices specified in their platform data. Feb 17 12:25:28 openmoko: Also change SPI CS pin to high on init Feb 17 12:25:28 openmoko: Signed-off-by: Ben Dooks Feb 17 12:35:14 [shy] Hello everyone :-) Feb 17 12:38:15 CSDexter, Feb 17 12:39:39 empty_mind> yes? Feb 17 12:40:00 CSDexter, just replied to your hello Feb 17 12:45:04 openmoko: 03laforge * r1032 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-jbt6k74.patch: Feb 17 12:45:04 openmoko: The .bus field of the spi driver is initialised Feb 17 12:45:04 openmoko: when you register the driver with the spi system Feb 17 12:45:04 openmoko: Signed-off-by: Ben Dooks Feb 17 12:45:05 empty_mind> oh, ok :) Feb 17 12:45:50 Cool, commits are relayed to the channel as well :) Feb 17 12:47:14 openmoko: 03laforge * r1033 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-core.patch: give MACH_GTA01 a more reasonable name Feb 17 12:48:18 openmoko: 03laforge * r1034 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-jbt6k74.patch: Feb 17 12:48:18 openmoko: Select the drivers that this build depends on Feb 17 12:48:18 openmoko: in the Kconfig to ensure that the build does Feb 17 12:48:18 openmoko: not fail Feb 17 12:48:18 openmoko: Signed-off-by: Ben Dooks Feb 17 12:56:37 openmoko: 03laforge * r1035 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-pcf50606.patch: Feb 17 12:56:37 openmoko: Select the drivers that this build depends on in the Kconfig to ensure that the Feb 17 12:56:37 openmoko: build does not fail Feb 17 12:56:37 openmoko: Signed-off-by: Ben Dooks Feb 17 13:03:49 morning Feb 17 13:04:44 Is there a way to let the "Dial" button show in landscape mode? http://scap.linuxtogo.org/ Feb 17 13:04:57 As you see it is hidden Feb 17 13:05:55 is there a new release date? Feb 17 13:06:30 ? Feb 17 13:06:33 counter Feb 17 13:06:33 P0: a week, 4 days 22:19:58 (5.931 - 11.931 days); P1: 27.931 - 42.931; P2: 195.931 - 225.931 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (351) Feb 17 13:07:09 great Feb 17 13:07:19 i just can't wait :) Feb 17 13:19:19 afternoon everybody Feb 17 13:22:10 * CSDexter out (for the moment) Feb 17 13:25:07 oh dear Feb 17 13:25:16 * koen spots pixel based alignment http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Dialer Feb 17 13:26:12 control freak designers :) Feb 17 13:26:44 looks good, i'm curious if this is possible with GTK+ :) Feb 17 13:26:51 i mean pixel precision Feb 17 13:26:57 but maybe with some pixmap hacks Feb 17 13:27:05 poor mickeyl Feb 17 13:28:06 as far I remember GTK+ doesn't work with absolute Pixel coordinates... but rather with table-like layout .. as in HTML tables Feb 17 13:28:30 but still hoping :) Feb 17 13:29:41 pixel based GUIs are so 1990's Feb 17 13:29:56 :-D Feb 17 13:30:12 well so maybe this would be better with some SVG powered UI Feb 17 13:30:18 scalable guis with proper hinting would rock Feb 17 13:30:23 yeah Feb 17 13:30:36 but that is going to require more power from CPU, 266MHz ARM won't do that Feb 17 13:30:44 will all those glassy effects there Feb 17 13:31:09 hmm Feb 17 13:31:20 anyway I heard that MacOSX Leopard is going to have some kind of vector UI Feb 17 13:31:48 ok now something kinda offtopic Feb 17 13:32:00 do you think somebody will be interested to do some image editing with OpenMoko? Feb 17 13:32:14 openmoko: 03laforge * r1036 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (gta01-core.patch gta01-vbus_draw.patch series): merge gta01-vbus_draw into gta01-core.patch Feb 17 13:32:19 i mean you know, you take some pictures, edit them and then send them over internet Feb 17 13:32:28 well cropping at least Feb 17 13:32:30 i'm thinking of porting this program to OpenMoko: http://www.kanzelsberger.com Feb 17 13:32:40 well not cropping ... but let's say Photoshop in phone :) Feb 17 13:32:45 some LE version Feb 17 13:33:27 Kaco: a lot of phones have simple editing, mainly to use with shots taken with the onboard camera. My E680i has a simple image editor, but I can't say I've used it much -- can't think of anything I'd do with it. Feb 17 13:33:27 lol Feb 17 13:33:54 SuN, i'm thinking of those newspaper photographing guys ... not common phone users :) Feb 17 13:33:55 yes, only cropping or changing exposure could be usefull, OMHO Feb 17 13:34:09 I didn't mean taking pictures with Neo :) Feb 17 13:34:18 and not a "bloated" application will be very useful, don't add features that are not important Feb 17 13:34:23 The resolution of the images those people work with, will probably make that impossible. Feb 17 13:34:24 let's say OpenMoko will work on ARM PDAs and Smartphones Feb 17 13:34:50 SuN, you can put 4Gb SD card to smartphone Feb 17 13:35:06 Storage is not the thing I'm worried about -- CPU and RAM are. Feb 17 13:35:14 yeah Feb 17 13:35:27 well i know, it will be slow ... but properly designed it won't need a lot of RAM Feb 17 13:35:38 but still better to carry smartphone/PDA than notebook Feb 17 13:35:55 True Feb 17 13:36:05 well i have to think about it more :) Feb 17 13:36:12 and still no openmoko here :( Feb 17 13:36:13 I can imagine some use cases, but they're pretty limited, I guess. But if you have the time... go for it ;) Feb 17 13:36:31 openmoko: 03laforge * r1037 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-core.patch: Feb 17 13:36:31 openmoko: The udc_command field is checked by the udc driver for being non-null, so we Feb 17 13:36:31 openmoko: can use the revision passed in to set the ucd_command field at initialisation Feb 17 13:36:31 openmoko: time. Feb 17 13:36:31 openmoko: Also changed gta01_udc_pullup to gta01_udc_command Feb 17 13:36:32 openmoko: Signed-off-by: Ben Dooks Feb 17 13:36:40 images should occupy a lot of ram, once decompressed for editing, I guess Feb 17 13:36:42 well i would like to contribute to openmoko somehow ... will see when I get Neo in my pocket :) Feb 17 13:37:07 markit, yes but that's not what I meant .... you can work on small thumbnail ... and after you're done you can apply the changes to whole file Feb 17 13:40:07 * pH5 starts to hack together openmoko-theme-qvga Feb 17 13:40:30 pH5: yay! Feb 17 13:40:43 pH5: maybe the openezx dudes can help you with that Feb 17 13:41:36 for now it's just editing gtkrcs and hunting pngs through convert, but we can build on that Feb 17 13:41:36 is the TI Calypso one single chipset or is it a chipset family with chips with varying feature sets? Feb 17 13:41:50 probably need some artists with a lot of time to clean up those 50% scaled pngs :) Feb 17 13:41:54 pH5, nice Feb 17 13:42:16 xkr47: no idea, not much info on the net about this platform Feb 17 13:42:36 I found some phones with "TI Calypso" and they claim to have class B gprs with multislot 10 Feb 17 13:43:04 xkr47: what is multislot 10? Feb 17 13:43:15 I have this in a command of my chipset init sequence Feb 17 13:43:16 Hm, "source" for the images would be nice.. PSD or Gimp files, I mean. Feb 17 13:43:26 pH5, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gprs#The_GPRS_capability_classes Feb 17 13:43:42 damn it, got disconnected and missed all messages Feb 17 13:43:48 SuN, yeah Feb 17 13:43:59 Kaco, just 3 :) Feb 17 13:44:17 xkr47: thanks. Feb 17 13:44:43 hmm. Feb 17 13:44:51 gsmd doesn't like sending ATPRIM="GMM","CONFIG MULTISLOT_CLASS=<10>" Feb 17 13:44:57 CM, yep, exact same error with 64 bit box... #1765 Feb 17 13:45:03 it splits the command at the space Feb 17 13:45:17 s/ATPRIM/AT%CPRIM/ Feb 17 13:45:19 pH5, you have a phone ? Feb 17 13:45:24 I mean neo.. Feb 17 13:45:43 not yet, for now I use my trusty old htc magician. Feb 17 13:45:48 pH5: gsmd works on your magician? Feb 17 13:46:05 koen: like a charm, hacky patches are on the gsmd-devel list. Feb 17 13:46:30 aloril, CM pointed out the bug. Not a problem with Makefile. OE #1765 Feb 17 13:47:34 * xkr47 hopes there will be a theme site with support for grouping theme variants like "90° rotated" Feb 17 13:48:06 xkr47: better make it tag based Feb 17 13:48:20 "vga, qvga" Feb 17 13:48:42 that encourages people to make one theme for more displays Feb 17 13:48:55 koen, good Feb 17 13:49:34 * xkr47 wonders if the TI Calypso NDA disallows the developers telling us what the chip can do Feb 17 13:49:40 like multislot etc Feb 17 13:53:32 pH5: congrats for the htc port! Feb 17 13:53:54 damnit... my reiserfs somehow got some corrupt and faulty inodes - i think i have to bake the devel-image again :(( Feb 17 13:53:55 dwery: no need for congratulations yet, it's an ongoing process :) Feb 17 13:54:09 :) Feb 17 13:54:50 pH5: OE thins libgsmd is insane Feb 17 13:54:58 hmmm Feb 17 13:55:06 the second run doesn't Feb 17 13:55:31 yeah, I had this issue with glibc-dbg yesterday :} Feb 17 13:55:40 I like the gsmd design though. Compared to the mess that are phoneserver of *shudder* gnomunicator. Feb 17 13:55:50 s/of/or/ Feb 17 14:10:48 does anyone knwo about the status of gtk+ and cairo wrt vector-based uis? Feb 17 14:11:31 you can make a vector based theme-engine with recent gtks Feb 17 14:11:41 I'm wondering if the AGPS unit in the neo can be accessed by the mobile operator to pinpoint the users localtion w/o the user knowing? Feb 17 14:12:00 how about the performance? i.e. could you design the ui layout pased on real-world units (millimetres) and have it run on something like the Neo Feb 17 14:12:08 CoreDump|home: it's hooked up to the CPU uart, so it would need a userspace helper to do that Feb 17 14:12:50 koen: that is good to know, thanks Feb 17 14:13:00 jannu: recent versions of cairo should be fast enough to get a reasonable performance for simple GUIs Feb 17 14:13:23 koen: ok. great Feb 17 14:21:49 koen, any chance you could apply the one-liner patch in OE bug #1765 ? :) Feb 17 14:26:25 jebba: I don't use my opteron in 64bit, so I can't test Feb 17 14:27:09 i can test it :) Feb 17 14:28:35 so can CM Feb 17 14:29:44 hello :) Feb 17 14:31:33 hello Feb 17 14:31:34 :P Feb 17 14:33:46 pH5 meant: I like the gsmd design though. Compared to the mess that are phoneserver or *shudder* gnomunicator. Feb 17 14:48:16 the ui mockups in the wiki are just unbelievable Feb 17 14:48:54 I mean, who on earth calls people primarily by dialing their number? Feb 17 14:49:42 You're right, the dialpad isn't nearly as important as good contact management. Feb 17 14:50:02 * benJIman doesn't use the address book Feb 17 14:50:11 But the dialpad isn't the obvious entry point for calling anyway, I normally use my address book. Feb 17 14:50:20 * markit does a lot but finds the icard aproach too limited Feb 17 14:50:27 address book involves putting people in it, which is hassle Feb 17 14:50:32 * koen uses "recently called" for 95% of his phonecalls Feb 17 14:50:47 A one time hassle that will save a lot of time later on :) Feb 17 14:50:53 koen: me too Feb 17 14:51:12 benJIman: I sync my contacts from my laptop via bluetooth, no hassle at all Feb 17 14:51:26 benJIman: remembering people's numbers involves remembering Feb 17 14:52:10 I used to know a lot of phone numbers. I don't know a lot of numbers anymore. I use the space for stuff that's actually useful. :P Feb 17 14:52:35 jannu: I've 10 friends, 10 relatives, but 200 customes... with multiple numbers each, can't use memory for them Feb 17 14:53:31 My situation is similar, I guess. 10 friends, 10 relatives and a few dozen of superficial contacts, which I do occasionally need to call, however. Feb 17 14:54:03 so, for calling imho a much better approach would be an addressbook view, with a list of people you call often at the top Feb 17 14:54:16 markit: that too. Feb 17 14:54:36 or easy to use categories, groups, tags, etc Feb 17 14:54:38 markit: and even the 20 number slots can be used for something actually useful Feb 17 14:54:45 Yeah, and/or quick sorting. Feb 17 14:54:56 koen: yes. those too Feb 17 14:55:19 I was thinking of a tab-based approach Feb 17 14:55:26 and big "add to addressbook" buttons everywhere Feb 17 14:55:55 if you want to see how not to do it, get a motorola a780 with the asian firmware Feb 17 14:56:28 koen: from my experience almost all motorolas are a great inspiration Feb 17 14:57:01 jannu: I compared the european and asian firmwares and the result is astounding Feb 17 14:57:27 The latest E680i firmware isn't that bad, all the features are there, just not always in logical places. The options menu in the address book doesn't fit the screen though, that's a pretty bad mess-up. Feb 17 14:57:36 you get the impression that people in asia only want to play java games with bright colours and loud music, but not make phonecalls Feb 17 14:57:56 ok. so it's just good old motorola Feb 17 14:58:01 =) Feb 17 14:58:04 That, and send each other silly mock-up pictures. Feb 17 14:58:35 for a minute there I was thinking that part of it could be explained by the different requirements of asian glyphs Feb 17 14:59:30 jannu: on my nokia it's "addressbook hotkey -> higlight name -> press green button" to make a phone call Feb 17 14:59:57 jannu: a780 "menu -> adressbook -> select name -> select number -> dial -> dial" Feb 17 15:00:08 yes, you need to press dial *twice* Feb 17 15:00:37 That's weird, what does it do between those 2 presses? Feb 17 15:00:38 koen: yes, I know. consequently I don't know anyone who's owned more that one motorola phone Feb 17 15:01:05 SuN: it's uses the second press to confirm Feb 17 15:01:08 dial -> msgbox "no fucking way". dial again -> msgbox: "well alright then."? Feb 17 15:01:14 That's silly indeed. Feb 17 15:01:37 "Are you sure you want to call your mother?" Feb 17 15:02:29 :P Feb 17 15:03:01 actually i'm surprised it's not menu -> menu -> addressbook -> addressbook -> select name -> select name -> select number -> select number -> dial -> dial" Feb 17 15:03:02 Motorola's select name then select number does make sense in a way, they're simply not assuming you're 1) wanting to call them, but might want to send an e-mail or message instead and 2) people do have multiple numbers sometimes. Feb 17 15:03:20 But there's no reason there can't be a default number that gets called when you highlight, then dial. Feb 17 15:03:55 SuN: yes, but you might just as well show all the numbers of one person in the first list Feb 17 15:04:02 SuN: so select name and number Feb 17 15:04:58 besides, the whole idea that you need to go to the addressbook to make a call is just inane Feb 17 15:05:42 I wouldn't wantall the numbers of my contacts in that same list, I have about 100 contacts. Feb 17 15:05:47 koen, jannu: the Sony V800 is 'addressbook hotkey' -> highlight name -> (select the number/email with left/right keys or accept the default) -> dial key Feb 17 15:05:53 btw, address book structure is not good for me and for a lot of people I know... Feb 17 15:05:56 my nokia remembers the last called person, while my old s55 remember the last called person+number Feb 17 15:06:33 what you should do is have a separate call button, which would take you to a view designed just for calling Feb 17 15:06:41 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=110350 for a description of what I mean Feb 17 15:07:00 so when trying home->office->cell, the s55 would have 3 entries in "recently called" and the nokia only 1 Feb 17 15:07:00 I'm not sure yet which I prefer Feb 17 15:07:12 koen: more 240x320 screenshots at scap.linuxtogo.org, I guess that needs some more work :) Feb 17 15:07:51 in addition I suggest developers to read Alan Cooper's books like "about face" and "inmates are running the asylum", and also Joel Spolsky book as well Feb 17 15:08:33 koen: how about a combination. i.e. something like Person A from number A or Person A at number A Feb 17 15:09:13 koen: and those would be grouped under the same entry if found consecutively Feb 17 15:11:10 pH5: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/a460d46db31bde70afde15f5accb50ea.png and http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/d70356e8f47a1ed2cc24a22e284d90a5.png looks pretty decent Feb 17 15:12:14 pH5: I'm wondering how to proceed with the qvga stuff Feb 17 15:13:02 pH5: open an enhancement bug or send a post to openmoko-devel Feb 17 15:13:02 (or both) Feb 17 15:13:14 SuN: if 100 contacts seems like too much for the calling screen, IMHO it means just that the scrolling ui sucks Feb 17 15:14:24 lists of 100 items should be made easy to handle. after all, with bigger memory cards we'll be looking at song lists of 1000 or more Feb 17 15:14:36 openembedded should become a mentoring organisation at SoC ... Feb 17 15:14:48 would be great for openmoko :) Feb 17 15:15:40 It just doesn't make sense to me to have ~100 contacts and display 3 or more numbers/e-mail addresses per contact in that same list. Feb 17 15:15:40 Doesn't have a lot to do with the scrolling gui, it's about how much info does a person need and how much can he handle. Feb 17 15:16:07 I'm perfectly happy with 1 entry per contact in the list with a default number attached to it, and a separate, second screen in case I don't want to call the default number. Feb 17 15:16:19 xkr47, thanks for the info; if indeed it's the same chip with multislot 10, that would be fairly good then Feb 17 15:16:39 99% of the cases I will not need the other info, I just want to call that contact as fast as possible. Feb 17 15:18:18 SuN: exactly. that's why the interface and information needs to be tailored for the function Feb 17 15:18:31 is it possible to test openmoko without the phone? Feb 17 15:18:41 Yes. At this point I've lost the point of our discussion :) Feb 17 15:19:29 SuN: what I mean is that the approach of using the same addressbook view for calling, messaging and contact management just doesn't work Feb 17 15:19:45 SuN: precisely for the reason you stated Feb 17 15:19:57 I agree, then. Feb 17 15:20:54 SuN: but if instead of that you have a separate addressbook/callee view, which only shows the relevant information (i.e. definitely not e-mail addresses or shoe sizes), it's a whole another story Feb 17 15:21:39 hello? Feb 17 15:21:46 Hello! Feb 17 15:22:11 you can do all sorts of useful stuff like appending the most often called people/numbers to the top of the default view Feb 17 15:22:47 is it possible to test openmoko without the phone? Feb 17 15:23:13 You can build and run the apps for x86, if you wish. Feb 17 15:23:23 Or use something like qemu. Feb 17 15:23:31 yes, and in addition, you should be able to mostly run it in qemu Feb 17 15:23:31 yeah Feb 17 15:23:46 qemu? Feb 17 15:24:01 Come on, it's just as fast to type that into google. Feb 17 15:24:16 Why do people insist on putting other people to work? Feb 17 15:24:23 laziness Feb 17 15:24:25 sorry Feb 17 15:24:33 convenience Feb 17 15:24:37 (and yes, I realize I could have typed the answer with equal effort). Feb 17 15:24:42 i was typing in google at the same time Feb 17 15:24:59 SuN: busted! ;-) Feb 17 15:25:01 well, to be fair, conversational information gathering still comes reflexively for many people ;) Feb 17 15:25:20 Let it go, people! It's not the 80s anymore! ;) Feb 17 15:26:27 mjr:dam straight! Feb 17 15:26:32 often a person gives better (short, condensed) than an avg search engine does. Feb 17 15:26:40 +answer Feb 17 15:26:56 there is a qemuarm (armqemu?) MACHINE in OE, iirc Feb 17 15:27:50 how could i use qemu to run a test of openmoko Feb 17 15:28:02 But I don't think MACHINE = "fic-gta01" can be used directly in qemu (yet). Or at least I haven't figured out how. Feb 17 15:28:05 jannu: I'd hope that at least some of that (1000s of songs) would be made easier with subdirectories. ID3 tag extraction, and faking it, if they are dumped in a directory may be an interesting option. Scrolling through a 1000 entry list is rarely the right solution. Feb 17 15:28:44 bigbang14, i don't know how to get qemu to do it yet, that's just all I've come across. I haven't seen a working cookbook example of it yet. Feb 17 15:29:46 Motorola's realplayer indexes your directories and extracts id3 so you can browse by artist, album, etc. It works, but relies on the accuracy of your tags. Feb 17 15:29:57 It'd be a nice alternative. Feb 17 15:30:49 Ideally I'd like a choice for "browse directories" and "browse by id3" or something. Feb 17 15:31:20 Yeah - the id3 would be mainly for when the user shovels on 1000 files in one dir. Feb 17 15:31:45 Which isn't completely senseless, I guess. Feb 17 15:31:56 is there a fixed date for the neo releases Feb 17 15:31:59 Hmm. I wonder if a database of the first 4 seconds of each song would be 'fair use'. Feb 17 15:32:31 To enable a (large) server to simply do a comparison between a sample you feed it and the database. Feb 17 15:33:09 For auto-tagging. This isn't really neo directly though. Feb 17 15:34:02 Ironically, the MP3 warez scene usually takes good care of id3 tags. Feb 17 15:34:38 Indeed. Feb 17 15:34:59 and as ironically, the media companies have been known to commit fraud wrt. labeling and naming of files in p2p network ;) Feb 17 15:37:40 SpeedEvil: well, obviously you'll need a media player which can read id3 tags and categorise the media accordingly Feb 17 15:37:57 SpeedEvil: Anything less in this day and age would just be an insult Feb 17 15:39:08 SpeedEvil: not to mention replaygain support in a player designed to be used with headphones Feb 17 15:40:15 what countries will the phone be released in Feb 17 15:41:28 koen, the patch in #1765 allowed me to build for x86_64 Feb 17 16:02:00 do you think it will be possible to get some demo videos? Feb 17 16:03:54 what a dead scilentsc Feb 17 16:04:22 *silence Feb 17 16:04:42 for all the people going "OMG!!! EMULATOR!!!": http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-February/000433.html Feb 17 16:05:40 OMG!!! EMULATOR!!! Feb 17 16:06:35 koen, @@ Feb 17 16:08:00 tag auch Feb 17 16:09:43 jannu: I'd also want compression - audio - for some media. Feb 17 16:10:01 Demo videos of what? Feb 17 16:11:44 Is there an emulator for OpenMoko? Feb 17 16:12:06 of openmoko in action kind of like the iphone's vids Feb 17 16:12:18 for all the people going "OMG!!! EMULATOR!!!": http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-February/000433.html Feb 17 16:12:46 * mjr wonders if it would be intrusive to auto-trigger that ;] Feb 17 16:13:02 * XorA guesses that if your first question is "is there an emulator" then your not actually ever going to do dev work :-) Feb 17 16:13:14 or rather: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/emulators-are-overrated Feb 17 16:15:08 god I need to clean out ~/Desktop Feb 17 16:17:11 rm ~/Desktop -rf Feb 17 16:18:15 koen, still depends, lets say if some1 is more interesting on the kernel/system level, uboot, gsmd & gps parts, without hardware or emulator, not easy to start coding ;) Feb 17 16:20:04 * XorA wonders how the hell you code for GSM/GPS parts without hardware, does the emulator does randomely move you round the world and phone you with SPAM occasionally? Feb 17 16:20:16 bigbang14: There is no _action_ as most of the software has not been written yet. Feb 17 16:20:31 aah Feb 17 16:20:35 bigbang14: essentially all of the pictures on the wiki are mockups. Feb 17 16:20:49 i see Feb 17 16:21:23 ah, the java people are FUDing Feb 17 16:21:28 * koen stabs java Feb 17 16:21:46 :) Feb 17 16:21:49 * XorA feels the java rage Feb 17 16:22:01 "Yeh right, personally after my experiences with development on the Feb 17 16:22:01 Savaje OS last year anyone coding without a 100 authentic emulator is Feb 17 16:22:02 wasting their time." Feb 17 16:22:10 you can almost feel the ignorance Feb 17 16:22:51 heh Feb 17 16:23:49 Hmm, that platform is promising though. Feb 17 16:24:12 If it's not vaporware, that is. Feb 17 16:24:26 it's easy to emulate vapourware Feb 17 16:25:11 Well, especially with something like java, an emulator is silly, since you're basically running stuff in a kind of emulator already. Feb 17 16:26:13 I can't imagine how they spent $71M entirely on making a half-baked unfinished Java OS. Feb 17 16:26:51 SuN: I suspect that developing for java ends in tears due to VM/JIT/Classpath mismatches Feb 17 16:27:35 that's true for all java development Feb 17 16:27:38 heck even sun gave up on the java os idea Feb 17 16:32:20 XorA, for GPS emulator, you could feed it with real data then let it replay :) Feb 17 16:32:36 I wonder why there is no Java build for ARM Linux Feb 17 16:33:03 giggls: because the java people rather email people to death than actually do some work Feb 17 16:33:05 I mean this is Unix/X11 Feb 17 16:33:19 giggls: jamvm and sablevm are available Feb 17 16:33:23 but not sun java Feb 17 16:33:58 giggls, blackdown has jvm for arm linux Feb 17 16:34:11 rd_: bzzzt! wrong! Feb 17 16:34:23 rd_: nothing near current, I talk about 1.4.x or even 1.5 Feb 17 16:34:39 and it won't run on any semi-modern arm system Feb 17 16:35:02 since it uses hardfpa, while openmoko uses softfpa and will use EABI Feb 17 16:37:10 looking from a C-API layer different linux systems are very simular Feb 17 16:37:32 it's not about API, it's about ABI Feb 17 16:37:32 do they use assembler code ore something? Feb 17 16:37:48 which java people tend to forget in their own little bytecode world Feb 17 16:37:55 koen, i see .. i talked about arm-linux generally tho, not the openmoko particular Feb 17 16:38:19 rd_: there is no 'general' arm linux, thanks to the floating point ABI debacle Feb 17 16:39:07 koen, umm really? so what blackdown arm-linux jvm used for? Feb 17 16:39:18 ARM has a FPU? Feb 17 16:39:20 koen: hm, I thought this to be like on x86. If there is no fpu it is emulated transparently Feb 17 16:39:28 loufoque: some arm chips have, yes Feb 17 16:39:52 giggls: if only it would be so simple Feb 17 16:40:40 the transparent emulator in the kernel is 10 to 50 times slower as the one in glibc/gcc Feb 17 16:40:46 koen: I used to have x86 chips without fpu, though I didn#t consider this to be a problem Feb 17 16:41:43 so people tend to use the glibc/gcc option, which you can configure for different ABIs: hardfpa, softfpa, hardvfp, softvfp, crunch, iwmmxt, EABI, etc Feb 17 16:42:06 debian/ARM is using hardfpa and is switching to EABI Feb 17 16:42:06 what is an userspace solution faster than a kernel-space solution? Feb 17 16:42:23 openmoko is using softfpa and will switch to EABI as well Feb 17 16:42:52 loufoque: yes, you avoid a kernel trap on every FP operation Feb 17 16:43:07 the kernel solution will trap into the kernel with each fpu instruction and emulate that spesific low-level instruction Feb 17 16:43:09 what's a kernel trap? Feb 17 16:43:23 a kernel trap is a very slow thing :) Feb 17 16:43:33 gcc/glibc can operate on a slightly higher level and especially with no traps Feb 17 16:43:41 a kernel tarp? Feb 17 16:43:43 * koen recommends reading http://wiki.debian.org/ArmEabiPort Feb 17 16:43:54 A kernel tarp is advanced virus protection. Feb 17 16:44:03 It stops stuff falling into protected memory. Feb 17 16:44:47 OK, I understand this so far, but why is this a particular Problem? This should be a problem of libm, not one that I am affected as a C Programmer Feb 17 16:45:30 giggls: not quite Feb 17 16:45:35 like this? http://adrinael.net/tarp.jpg Feb 17 16:46:06 it should not bother me what libm does internally Feb 17 16:46:06 since FPA stores floating points as big endian and vfp as native endian, you're in for some surprises Feb 17 16:46:54 the fastest solution is the best Feb 17 16:47:38 giggls: see http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350973 Feb 17 16:48:01 OK, thats a problem, a standard libm has to be an inteface with native endianess Feb 17 16:53:59 I consider java (J2ME and J2SE) and scripting languages with gui Interface (tcl/tk, tkinter comes to mind) as killer applications for openmoko Feb 17 16:54:39 giggls: matlab/octave wouldn't hurt either Feb 17 16:55:20 haha Feb 17 16:55:27 "distributed computing" Feb 17 16:56:20 well, that sun.com guy said he'd be doing work to get j2me running. Scripting languages, sure, but umm, how about python/gtk instead of tk since the native gui _is_ gtk :] Feb 17 16:57:13 jannu: octave should be way to slow without an FPU Feb 17 16:57:34 no shit, Janet? :] Feb 17 16:57:41 giggls: yes. I know Feb 17 16:57:52 mjr: tk does not depend on anything else than xlib, that should not be a problem Feb 17 16:58:10 it isn't a technical problem, but a user interface consistency one Feb 17 16:58:34 gtk apps will at least share the same theme Feb 17 16:58:37 (and, well, tk, eww) Feb 17 16:58:45 tk is very ugly. Feb 17 16:59:08 its ugly on unix, shure Feb 17 16:59:13 tk has plenty of good-looking stuff these days (tkinter or whatever its called) Feb 17 16:59:27 404: http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/js/js-1.5.tar.gz They just have js-1.6.tar.gz now. Feb 17 17:00:02 ugliness isn't the problem, because in a vast majority of cases that can be fixed Feb 17 17:00:24 koen, what's the preferred approach here? Bug you? ;) Or should i 'zilla it? Feb 17 17:00:47 apart from this I would apreciate to just use some tk applications without sourcecode change Feb 17 17:01:07 jebba: well, it would help if you read the wiki Feb 17 17:01:07 working URL: http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/js/older-packages/js-1.5.tar.gz Feb 17 17:01:11 * xkr47 fixed 9 of the "wanted pages" on the wiki by fixing bogus links Feb 17 17:01:39 koen, heh. Well, trust me i've been doing lots of reading to just get where i'm at. I guess i missed that part. /me goes off to look at the wikis.... Feb 17 17:01:42 the problem is porting and updating the basic ui framework and logic into n different toolkits Feb 17 17:01:51 yeah Feb 17 17:02:33 the gtk bindings for scripting languages can probably be extended pretty easily to encompass the moko extensions and stuff Feb 17 17:02:34 jebba: or just not use the ancient OE snapshot FIC is using Feb 17 17:03:47 mjr: yep. once the gtk stuff has stabilised Feb 17 17:04:06 koen, ah ya. I see. I was doing it with the MokoMakefile this time around. ;) I had done those fixes, just not on this box. sry.... Feb 17 17:05:52 jannu, of course. Point being that it'll be a heckuva lot easier that way than making similar stuff on Tk. Feb 17 17:06:17 what's the height of the on screen keyboard? Feb 17 17:08:35 mjr: yes, and keeping stuff up-to-date will actually be possible Feb 17 17:11:02 Hmm so the keyboard squishes the rest of the screen. Feb 17 17:11:19 wm_eddie: the mock-up seems to be 167 pixels Feb 17 17:12:21 wm_eddie: which would means 1,41 cm on the actual screen Feb 17 17:12:23 woo hoo. Got `openmoko-finger-demo` working at least... finally getting somewhere ;) Feb 17 17:12:47 That is really small. Feb 17 17:13:15 the mockups won't actually be useable on a 300dpi screen Feb 17 17:13:24 someone buy the designers a neo ;) Feb 17 17:13:41 I'm trying to make a simple GTK application that interfaces with Anthy to be an on-screen Japanese input method. Feb 17 17:13:55 I wonder what the size should be. Feb 17 17:14:22 I'd be great if I could make it a popup dialog, that goes away when you are done. Feb 17 17:14:26 "Yeh right, so the manufacturer is still bedding down the design and Feb 17 17:14:26 architecture but you say that I'm spouting FUD." Feb 17 17:14:28 heh Feb 17 17:14:50 according to Dean "clueless" Colling FIC might ship a powerpc or MIPS neo in a week Feb 17 17:15:46 how hard can it be.. some soldering and wiring and you are done! Feb 17 17:16:20 golly, I'm gonna wait for that PPC model Feb 17 17:17:35 the keys in the input widget are roughly 3x3mm Feb 17 17:18:12 whatever the designers are smoking, I want some of that too Feb 17 17:18:59 They think people like styluses Feb 17 17:20:02 wm_eddie: and wear magnifying glasses all day Feb 17 17:20:18 I also think those scroll bars have to go. Feb 17 17:20:29 I hate scroll bars. Feb 17 17:22:14 just for kicks, open any of the input widget mockups in an image viewer and display it at 33% size (assuming you have a 100ppi monitor) Feb 17 17:23:55 wm_eddie: imho the scroll wheel thing is actually quite a good idea Feb 17 17:24:30 wm_eddie: the current version is just a bit too high on bling and bit too low on information Feb 17 17:26:49 A scroll wheel is a good idea. Feb 17 17:31:26 Where was the unofficial wiki. Feb 17 17:31:35 I'm trying to fix dangling links on copied stuff. Feb 17 17:31:39 linuxtogo.org/gowiki Feb 17 17:31:41 K Feb 17 17:44:21 so trolltech starts spreading fud, took em a while http://qtdeveloper.net/archives/2007/02/17/power-of-emulation/ Feb 17 17:46:07 buz: same idea as Xnest/Xephyr, just with an added layer Feb 17 17:46:14 not really emulation Feb 17 17:49:08 isn't that just Xoo? Feb 17 17:49:15 It would be nice if the neo had a 'passthrough' mode Feb 17 17:49:56 loufoque: no, the trolltech dudes insist on using the framebuffer directly instead of X, so qvfb just emulates a framebuffer Feb 17 17:50:03 loufoque: the idea is the same, tough Feb 17 17:52:07 tihi, so one could run xframe inside qvfb? ;) Feb 17 17:52:36 counter Feb 17 17:52:37 P0: a week, 4 days 17:33:53 (5.732 - 11.732 days); P1: 27.732 - 42.732; P2: 195.732 - 225.732 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (352) Feb 17 17:52:40 Is there any way of finding links to broken pages on the wiki? Feb 17 17:52:55 Err - links to nonexistant. pages Feb 17 17:53:11 SpeedEvil: There are special pages for orphan and stuff Feb 17 17:53:17 * dottedmag looks at the [[Feed Peader]]. So much screen space is wasted. Feb 17 17:53:26 SpeedEvil: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Specialpages Feb 17 17:53:40 *Reader Feb 17 17:53:54 I know there are special pages for stuff - I can't find one for the opposite of orphan pages. Feb 17 17:54:05 Not pages that exist with no links, but links with no pages. Feb 17 17:55:24 SpeedEvil: ah, not that I'm aware. Feb 17 17:55:56 wget/grep would work, but... Feb 17 17:58:02 SpeedEvil - "Wanted pages"? Feb 17 17:58:43 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Wantedpages Feb 17 17:58:51 Ah - it was cunningly hidden at the end. Feb 17 17:58:55 Elrond: heh, you're to fast for me Feb 17 17:59:24 stefan_schmidt - Do I now get a neo for free? ;o) Feb 17 17:59:34 dates_navigator.c:24:47: error: libedataserver/e-data-server-util.h: No such file or directory Feb 17 17:59:39 Elrond: heh Feb 17 18:08:19 * wm_eddie is thinking of something like http://wm-eddie.info/~wm_eddie/neo_input.png Feb 17 18:09:57 it would have to take up the whole screen. Feb 17 18:10:34 and Would send the string to the application when you press the center button after you were done. Feb 17 18:16:25 The screenshots for applications look really great! Feb 17 18:16:37 Openmoko.org is shaping up nicely. It will be amazing to see it in a year. Feb 17 18:17:31 yeah I agree Feb 17 18:17:41 I think it's amazing already :) Feb 17 18:18:53 running everything (gimp...) with openmoko theme is not a very good idea... Feb 17 18:19:14 :) Feb 17 18:20:48 and, you get vertical lines: http://chmeee.dyndns.org/ruby/om_eggclock.png Feb 17 18:21:21 (that's a modified cairo exmaple-clock ran from a Ruby script) Feb 17 18:21:25 Oh well - that's some pages filled in. Feb 17 18:22:56 oh, neo will have a 480x640 display? Feb 17 18:29:25 Kero, yeah Feb 17 18:29:36 ha, same image as before, now rendered on 480x640 Feb 17 18:29:43 Kero, I heard you can rotate it to 640x480 also Feb 17 18:29:48 Kero, looks better :) Feb 17 18:29:57 will the theme rotate to 640x480 :) Feb 17 18:30:14 I believe a rotated theme will appear at some point Feb 17 18:30:22 have a look at http://scap.linuxtogo.org/ for some more resolution fun Feb 17 18:30:40 you can rotate it in software but that'll likely be rather slow Feb 17 18:31:12 oh so the X server won't support rotating? Feb 17 18:31:23 it does and will keep doing Feb 17 18:31:36 the X server does it in software Feb 17 18:31:43 xinerama is in Xfbdev since... long ago :) Feb 17 18:31:43 * xkr47 apologizes for stupid comments Feb 17 18:32:10 * xkr47 goes to install openmoko Feb 17 18:32:41 hmmm Feb 17 18:32:47 I messed up a bootscript Feb 17 18:32:56 time to get out the serial lead Feb 17 18:34:35 xkr47, aside from rotation, what is fun for video and game possibilities is that the hw supports a qvga mode also (as well as scrolling around a larger framebuffer) Feb 17 18:34:58 mjr, is the qvga 240x320 then ? Feb 17 18:35:27 it's quarter vga Feb 17 18:35:31 * fluffs goes to get something to eat Feb 17 18:35:33 so 320x240 or 240x320 Feb 17 18:35:42 yes, it'll be natively in portrait mode also Feb 17 18:36:36 wasn't the supported virtual screen size quite big? Feb 17 18:37:03 don't recall that being mentioned Feb 17 18:37:29 at least there's the general RAM limitation :] Feb 17 18:38:28 maybe the virtual buffer could be nice for google maps also :) Feb 17 18:38:38 or web browsers in general Feb 17 18:38:38 and a calendar widget (with very bright green things...) : http://chmeee.dyndns.org/ruby/om_cal.png Feb 17 18:39:08 time to take a peek at libecal and its API Feb 17 18:39:09 Kero, just testing ?-) Feb 17 18:39:20 xkr47, yeah, it's come to my mind too that it may be useful for browsing around a larger map Feb 17 18:40:08 'course, that'll need the software support; I think the X server didn't at this point support switching to an arbitrary virtual size Feb 17 18:40:21 but it's nice to know what the hw can do Feb 17 18:41:03 xkr47: yup, gtk is new for me, too. did some things with glade a few days ago. Feb 17 18:42:10 xkr47: but I'm always interested in calendar/pim things Feb 17 18:45:08 Kero, nice :) Feb 17 19:01:10 found a non-complete swig-for-ruby lib for evolution (eds, ecal and more) Feb 17 19:08:31 is a microsd card reader in my PC necessary to get started with neo ? Feb 17 19:08:54 no. Feb 17 19:09:02 You can mount it over USB. Feb 17 19:09:03 thx Feb 17 19:09:07 Or bluetooth. Feb 17 19:09:13 Or GPRS - if insane. Feb 17 19:10:52 most microSD cards come with microSD-SD card adaptors, SD readers are very cheap - $10 or under. Feb 17 19:11:36 for what operations would extracting the microsd and plugging it to the pc make sense ? Feb 17 19:11:45 for filling the card with mp3s ?-) Feb 17 19:12:01 yes. Feb 17 19:12:05 They'll always be faster than a serial line over USB Feb 17 19:12:05 It's USB1.1 on the neo. Feb 17 19:12:15 So you'll get at best a meg a second. Feb 17 19:12:32 so.. 30-60 min for a 2 gig card Feb 17 19:12:42 A USB2 reader/writer may be 10 times faster. Feb 17 19:12:48 It depends on the card. Feb 17 19:13:17 one really doesn't want to tinker with microsds too much though :] Feb 17 19:13:25 * mjr is not in that much of a hurry Feb 17 19:13:39 I think tehy are pretty robust - the socket on the phone is ZIF AIUI. Feb 17 19:14:30 it looked like ZIF, yes, maybe I'm just projecting my discomfort in manipulating small bits here :] Feb 17 19:16:53 Memory cards are getting rather smaller. Feb 17 19:17:03 serial line over usb? Feb 17 19:17:08 * koen uses g_ether Feb 17 19:17:18 nice 12Mbit/s ethernet emulation Feb 17 19:17:31 just as fast as an usb1 sd reader Feb 17 19:18:36 koen: do you have hardware, and a scale - to answer the weight question - apart from the case. Feb 17 19:18:57 SpeedEvil: I don't have a neo(board) Feb 17 19:19:02 Ah. Feb 17 19:19:10 just enough other arm boards and devices Feb 17 19:19:18 * koen has lost count Feb 17 19:19:58 is the debug board what will end up as hackers lunchbox? Feb 17 19:20:38 buz: I'm assuming so Feb 17 19:21:00 so that one is really more for the hardcore crowd ;) Feb 17 19:22:12 i don't think I'll ever need jtag, but serial console is nice Feb 17 19:22:33 i thought uboot can do usb console now Feb 17 19:23:06 yeah Feb 17 19:23:13 but that doesn't help me with userspace Feb 17 19:23:36 at some point i had usb console somewhere Feb 17 19:23:40 could have been bsd though Feb 17 19:24:12 but when you're in userspace, shouldnt you get usb net anyhow Feb 17 19:24:56 (it's been a while since i actually dealt with unix on that level ;) Feb 17 19:29:43 * fluffs will be back later Feb 17 19:41:53 re Feb 17 19:42:37 sup Feb 17 19:59:20 Hi, I attempted to compile the openmoko image using MokoMakefile, but I get the error "unknown command: uboot-mkimage". Is there something simple I am missing? Feb 17 19:59:52 Lazerdye: i got the same Feb 17 20:00:03 there is wrong path somewhere Feb 17 20:00:57 i just hardcoded it to my path, but wasnt digging in it to find right way for fixing Feb 17 20:01:24 Magon: Okay, I couldn't find it, but right now I am rebuilding so when the error happens again I'll look harder. Feb 17 20:01:48 Magon: Thanks :) Feb 17 20:02:21 just grep for uboot-mkimage in openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/linux Feb 17 20:02:45 and subtitute it with full path Feb 17 20:10:47 can someone point me to package containing libebook-1.2.pc ? Feb 17 20:14:49 Magon: eds-dbus Feb 17 20:14:58 thx Feb 17 20:16:09 it is needed by openmoko-dialer..but is not in dependency Feb 17 20:16:23 I know Feb 17 20:16:26 * koen fixed that in OE Feb 17 20:16:32 ok Feb 17 20:16:34 thx Feb 17 20:17:13 i am trying to build openmoko-devel-image..still from the day it was released Feb 17 20:17:54 but trying head instead of rev suggested and dont have much experiences with OE :-( Feb 17 20:17:56 * CoreDump|home has a openmoko-image build going... Feb 17 20:18:38 can i use the image without a neo? Feb 17 20:19:02 try quemu Feb 17 20:19:14 grr qemu Feb 17 20:19:17 http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/2628376667a252e23d98e6f15272e8dc.png Cool, a guitar chord app Feb 17 20:20:15 SuN: now is more vital to get basic 'phone apps' working Feb 17 20:20:42 I know, nice nevertheless though. Feb 17 20:20:53 (I'm not the one doing that) Feb 17 20:20:55 yes Feb 17 20:21:09 it is probably mockup Feb 17 20:21:18 No it's not Feb 17 20:21:37 * koen filed http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=196 Feb 17 20:22:35 This is real, running the apps on an Ipaq if I'm not mistaken. Feb 17 20:22:41 And resizing them to QVGA. Feb 17 20:23:02 who have access to openmoko svn? Feb 17 20:24:11 i am still building enviroment, and someone have app written..i am painfully slow Feb 17 20:26:25 heh Feb 17 20:26:45 fret not, I've even theoretically no time to actually do anything before the end of next month Feb 17 20:26:59 OT: anyone familiar with current PC PSUs? Feb 17 20:29:18 ('course, I'm probably not going to be one of the shining stars of the community anyhow) Feb 17 20:29:19 What level of familiarization are you looking for? :) Feb 17 20:29:22 heh Feb 17 20:29:26 "3. IOP changes got dumped because git refused to merge, spewing out an Feb 17 20:29:26 error I didn't understand." Feb 17 20:29:35 RMK loves git Feb 17 20:30:17 SuN: the qvga scaps were made on a htc magician phone by pH5 Feb 17 20:30:44 Ahh, almost got it right. Feb 17 20:30:55 They are the real deal though, am I right? Feb 17 20:31:31 SuN: the mobo has two connectors, [20pin:4pin][4pin:4pin*], the one with * is covered on the mobo by a protective piece of plastic, but would fit the connector.. I'm uncertain whether it's supposed to fit. Feb 17 20:31:40 SuN: mechanically, it does, the socket consists of square connectors, but the plug is all rounded connectors Feb 17 20:31:59 SuN: and my experience so far has been: PSU connectors can only fit one way Feb 17 20:32:05 SuN: so I'm confused Feb 17 20:32:24 Stephmw: atx did aways with that Feb 17 20:32:42 pH5: What did you changed for 320x240 until now? I think about a build for A780 tomorrow. Feb 17 20:33:01 Stephmw: PSU connects fit both ways, unless your mobo manufacturer spend $0.05 on some guard plastic Feb 17 20:33:23 Stephmw: one way releases the magic smoke, though Feb 17 20:33:53 koen: all other connectors other than that 3rd 4pin one can only fit one way on my mobo Feb 17 20:33:59 Yeah, please do make way for the appearing magician. Feb 17 20:34:10 Stephmw: good Feb 17 20:34:53 stefan_schmidt: I mostly changed openmoko-theme-standard (rescaling images, changing gtkrc), the chord application is hacked a bit, and some images in openmoko-common are rescaled. Feb 17 20:35:19 where is the best place to share this? create an openmoko-theme-qvga gforge project? Feb 17 20:35:37 Aha - Sean popped up on the wiki, saying 184g+-5g (weight) Feb 17 20:36:20 pH5: add a openmoko-theme-qvga recipe as well? Feb 17 20:36:32 pH5: Have a diff for gtkrc? And how do you scale the images? convert? Feb 17 20:36:40 koen: That would be the goal. Feb 17 20:36:41 SpeedEvil: wow. that's the weight of an hx4700. Feb 17 20:37:33 stefan_schmidt: manually with gimp, actually. but it's just 50% (rounded up) scaling. Feb 17 20:38:01 pH5: I thought about convert -scale 1/2 or something Feb 17 20:38:38 pH5: Anyway we could bundle our efforts for a qvga build. Feb 17 20:38:48 stefan_schmidt: definitely. Feb 17 20:39:07 pH5: A short grep through the code gives me even some hardcoded sizes in some apps. Feb 17 20:39:17 stefan_schmidt: btw, all openmoko apps are in the angstrom feeds, so you can just ipkg install them Feb 17 20:39:29 koen: ah, good to know. thanks Feb 17 20:40:13 stefan_schmidt: I have some patches, but just hardcoding for 240x320 instead of 480x640 isn't very nice. we should create a qvga theme and try to submit patches to apps to remove the hardcoded sizes. Feb 17 20:40:38 why do you want to use QVGA resolution? when display is VGA? Feb 17 20:40:43 pH5: exactly my plan :) Feb 17 20:41:06 Kaco: to use it on qvga devices? Feb 17 20:41:19 ah sure :-D Feb 17 20:41:24 pH5: But just clutter with ifdefs isn't nice. Have a good plan for that? Feb 17 20:41:26 it will work on other devices Feb 17 20:41:42 pH5: btw, how much ram has your qvga device? Feb 17 20:41:44 do you have any tips for devices that will work with openmoko? Feb 17 20:41:53 * stefan_schmidt fears about the 48mb ram in ezx phones Feb 17 20:42:00 i mean similar hw as neo1973 Feb 17 20:42:12 qemu is slow :) Feb 17 20:42:12 stefan_schmidt: gtk magic, depending on whether it is spacing or image sizes, even rescaling might be needed. Feb 17 20:42:17 the magician has 64mb sdram Feb 17 20:43:07 pH5: ok, you know gtk magic? /me needs to inform himself a bit about it. Feb 17 20:43:41 pH5: hmm, 64 mb should be ok. Anyway, I'll see how it works once I build it. :) Feb 17 20:44:58 pH5: Like to upload your work? Would save me some time starting with it. Feb 17 20:45:30 anybody knows how to run Xnest with 480x640 in current X session? Feb 17 20:45:40 Xnest? Feb 17 20:45:40 eeew Feb 17 20:45:41 use Xephyr Feb 17 20:45:45 yeah X in window Feb 17 20:45:49 ah hmm Feb 17 20:46:10 what is the difference? Feb 17 20:46:11 Xnest -geometry 480x640 Feb 17 20:46:17 stefan_schmidt: should I start a gforge project? I'll post a patch for the gtkrcs here.. Feb 17 20:46:44 SpeedEvil, yeah i know that, but it's trying to create new X display Feb 17 20:46:46 Xnest -geometry 480x640 :2 Feb 17 20:46:49 SpeedEvil, not actually running in window Feb 17 20:46:53 ok let me try Feb 17 20:47:09 Start a new X server on display 2 Feb 17 20:47:12 pH5: gforge sounds good. Hopefully we include in later into official svn. Feb 17 20:47:19 lol thanks Feb 17 20:47:20 pH5: Start one, I join. Feb 17 20:47:23 SpeedEvil, worked :) Feb 17 20:47:38 so what is the difference between Xephyr and Xnest? Feb 17 20:47:52 well i guess Xnest might be safer here, since i'm running Beryl Feb 17 20:48:00 Xnest is stuck in the 1980's Feb 17 20:48:01 xephyr is better :] Feb 17 20:48:04 Kaco, Xephyr is newer. Feb 17 20:48:10 Xephyr is the new Xnest Feb 17 20:48:21 Much of X is. Consider xfig. Feb 17 20:48:31 Xephyr isn't dependant on Xextensions of the server Feb 17 20:48:31 jebba, ok Feb 17 20:48:50 ok so how to force app to run on :2 ? Feb 17 20:49:03 tried: $ export DISPLAY=:2 && some-app Feb 17 20:49:03 DISPLAY=:2 foo Feb 17 20:49:03 yeah, you get all the new funky extensions with xephyr Feb 17 20:49:03 or google Feb 17 20:49:21 Xlib: connection to ":2.0" refused by server Feb 17 20:49:38 mjr: Xephyr can even debug drawing using XDAMAGE Feb 17 20:49:46 Xnest -ac :2 Feb 17 20:50:00 ah Feb 17 20:50:02 let me try Feb 17 20:50:42 koen, worked! Feb 17 20:50:45 thanks Feb 17 20:50:49 will emerge xephyr anyway Feb 17 20:51:22 'course, you realize that with -ac the display will be open to all clients (not sure if Xephyr listens to tcp by default though) Feb 17 20:51:23 Kaco: I think xephyr is in kdrive Feb 17 20:51:54 http://en.pastebin.ca/360996 Feb 17 20:52:03 mjr: if not '-nolisten tcp' Feb 17 20:52:05 stefan_schmidt: this is my gtkrc patch so far Feb 17 20:52:06 Kaco: I couldn't get it working on gentoo amd64 though, but I haven't tried the last few weeks Feb 17 20:53:26 CM, ok let me try on x86 Feb 17 20:53:52 pH5: Thanks, I take a look Feb 17 20:55:26 pH5: For the images. I think we can start with some selfmade for testing, but should consider requesting official openmoko images. It's a desginer job. Feb 17 20:55:40 pH5: I open a bugreport for it. Feb 17 20:55:43 Kaco: kdrive is a useflag to xorg-server btw :) Feb 17 20:56:04 CM, ok :) Feb 17 20:57:10 lol this is crazy Feb 17 20:57:17 let me take screenshot Feb 17 20:58:05 http://www.kanzelsberger.com/temp/vga.png Feb 17 20:58:52 no idea if there's any usage for this app on OpenMoko but I can actually port it Feb 17 20:59:13 stefan_schmidt: ok, then I'll hold back on creating a project for now. perhaps we can get an official qvga theme in svn. Feb 17 20:59:22 what is crasy? Feb 17 20:59:24 crazy Feb 17 20:59:40 yeah, crazy to have such app in 640x480 :-D Feb 17 20:59:51 480x640, btw Feb 17 20:59:58 i know Feb 17 21:00:02 hrm, what's the problem if you have enough dpi Feb 17 21:00:09 but i guess openmoko should have this rotation mode Feb 17 21:00:12 Kaco: those menus will be hardly useable on a 285dpi display Feb 17 21:00:12 most PDAs has it Feb 17 21:00:32 ah well DPI ... it will be very very small Feb 17 21:00:45 but it can be changed of course Feb 17 21:01:12 does that app run in 128M? :] Feb 17 21:01:14 that's why i need some VGA device very very soon :) Feb 17 21:01:17 mjr, of course Feb 17 21:01:34 mjr, even 64Mb is enough Feb 17 21:02:05 pH5: We need at least a place where we put patches and images until it get included. Do you have a place, or should I offer one? Feb 17 21:02:33 stefan_schmidt: keep them in OE with the recipe for the time being Feb 17 21:03:17 koen: ok, that's fine with me. If I have new stuff for you, I upload it to my private site and you can include it. Feb 17 21:03:53 koen: put 700k of images in the mtn db? please no. Feb 17 21:03:58 it seems svn isn't working with gforge yet Feb 17 21:04:19 pH5: ehm, I accidentally added 12MB of uboot source.... Feb 17 21:04:28 :) Feb 17 21:04:39 it seems FIC likes to have that in their OE repo....... Feb 17 21:05:30 pH5: DEPENDS = "image-magick-native" do_compile() { convert foo bar ; conver bar baz;} ;) Feb 17 21:05:34 so just some webspace for a tar.gz and the rest in oe. Feb 17 21:05:57 koen: ! Feb 17 21:06:00 koen: No, please not. Perhaps we adjust some images manuell Feb 17 21:06:17 * koen points to ';)' Feb 17 21:06:42 that was a smiley, not a bashism :) Feb 17 21:06:54 koen: ah, who can tell, these days :) Feb 17 21:07:12 koen: ups, have not seen this one. :) Feb 17 21:07:59 stefan_schmidt: do you have probability theory yet? Feb 17 21:08:08 s/have/hate/ Feb 17 21:08:08 koen meant: stefan_schmidt: do you hate probability theory yet? Feb 17 21:09:14 koen: hmm, good question. I find it interesting, but some stuff was hard to understand. I'll get the test results in two weeks Feb 17 21:10:00 statistic is a lot of black magic Feb 17 21:10:34 stefan_schmidt: I'm starting to hate it because they are applying it to signal theory Feb 17 21:10:46 heh Feb 17 21:11:11 pH5: Fine if I attach the gtkdrc patch in your name to the bug? Feb 17 21:12:11 stefan_schmidt: of course. Feb 17 21:12:51 heh Feb 17 21:12:56 I was talking about pass-through earlier Feb 17 21:13:03 LaF0rge beat me to it: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=195 :) Feb 17 21:13:54 when you think about porting apps and uis don't think 480x640. Feb 17 21:14:17 think "small phone screen with big fingers" Feb 17 21:14:18 think something like 170x227 Feb 17 21:14:56 or better yet, think 43,2x57,6mm Feb 17 21:15:05 pH5, koen: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=197 Feb 17 21:15:18 which apps in openmoko already use dbus? Feb 17 21:16:06 pH5: comments welcome Feb 17 21:16:36 Kero: almost all, eds, gconf,bluez, gpsd and gnome-vfs all use dbus Feb 17 21:17:46 koen: good! gives enough processes on my PC to test hings with, too :) Feb 17 21:18:35 * koen wishes that the gconf-dbus branch got merged into trunk Feb 17 21:20:15 dbus looks like a RPC+event-mechanism on the right system level Feb 17 21:20:33 stefan_schmidt: great, let's see whether you can get it to work on your moto easily. Feb 17 21:21:29 pH5: atm I fight some other problems, but I have much more time the next weeks. Feb 17 21:21:32 pH5: :) Feb 17 21:22:08 hey mickeyl Feb 17 21:22:09 hi mickeyl Feb 17 21:22:11 wb mickeyl Feb 17 21:22:37 'sup Feb 17 21:25:29 is there any reason my svn co stops after trunk/oe/packages/uboot/files/arm_flags.patch ? Feb 17 21:26:44 counter Feb 17 21:26:44 P0: a week, 4 days 13:59:45 (5.583 - 11.583 days); P1: 27.583 - 42.583; P2: 195.583 - 225.583 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (353) Feb 17 21:32:15 koen: I don't think scaling the gtkrc values during runtime is worth the effort - we need a separate theme anyway because of the pixmaps. Feb 17 21:32:36 ah, right Feb 17 21:32:51 I was already thinking in vector terms :) Feb 17 21:33:12 * stefan_schmidt dreams about vector themes. :) Feb 17 21:33:34 pH5: Like to upload your already scaled images and add a link to bug? Feb 17 21:36:50 * stefan_schmidt prepares himself for a long night. 1. CIA for openezx 2. buttons for xoo skin 3. build openmoko-devel-image 4. start real hacking Feb 17 21:37:37 stefan_schmidt: 0) add ezx support to gsmd? Feb 17 21:38:03 stefan_schmidt: did you see http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gsmd-devel yet? Feb 17 21:38:11 koen: wow, first I like to see a openmoko images booting on ezx. Feb 17 21:38:22 koen: I'm already on it. Feb 17 21:39:10 koen: I'll take a look into add moto vendor plugin for ts0710 after fosdem Feb 17 21:39:36 aarg, that remains me that I need to get my slides ready. :( Feb 17 21:42:07 anyway Feb 17 21:42:23 i'm worried about GPS .... if it's going to be supported by linux kernel .... there are no GPS apps for Linux Feb 17 21:42:29 anybody plans to write it? or? Feb 17 21:42:40 there was some opensource GPS mapping project, can't find it right now .... Feb 17 21:42:40 what has gps todo with the linux kernel? Feb 17 21:42:49 GPS chip support Feb 17 21:42:51 i meant :) Feb 17 21:43:08 what has a gps chip todo with the linux kernel? Feb 17 21:43:09 you know when you install Linux on some PDA/phone ... usually half of hardware is not working there Feb 17 21:43:22 there's a driver in kernel? Feb 17 21:43:27 it's attached to the serial port, no kernel driver needed Feb 17 21:43:33 ah Feb 17 21:43:37 really? Feb 17 21:43:39 yes Feb 17 21:43:40 that's clever Feb 17 21:43:49 but still it's inside the phone right? Feb 17 21:44:09 ok so it's like standard GPS interface? Feb 17 21:44:25 so the only thing needed is some GPS app for Linux Feb 17 21:44:27 Kaco - "maemo-mapper" I heard... no URL. Feb 17 21:44:40 https://garage.maemo.org/projects/maemo-mapper Feb 17 21:45:10 ok Feb 17 21:45:20 thanks Feb 17 21:45:26 Kaco - a gps app, that works with gpsd. Feb 17 21:45:38 Kaco: For maps, look at this effort: www.openstreetmap.org Feb 17 21:46:09 Someone was porting meamo-mapper to gtk for getting it to OM. Feb 17 21:47:10 hello Feb 17 21:47:21 http://www.fourmigration.com/link.php?pid=15&cont=5 Feb 17 21:47:34 CM, thanks, that's what I was looking for Feb 17 21:47:35 spam? Feb 17 21:48:03 Kaco - If you have questions on Openstreetmap... :) Feb 17 21:48:08 no nw game Feb 17 21:48:35 * koen still hasn't figured out how to add roads with josm Feb 17 21:48:40 mickeyl: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=197 comments welcome Feb 17 21:49:07 koen - You have segments? Feb 17 21:49:20 Elrond, well I'm just wondering if there's real usage for those on OpenMoko Feb 17 21:49:26 Elrond: yes Feb 17 21:50:33 koen - Choose select-tool; Shift - Select the segments you want to make a road from; Choose "way"-tool; Click 'Yes', when asked, if you want to convert n segments to way.; Go tagging the way; done. Feb 17 21:51:11 Elrond: ehm, that looks like it's designed by a motorola engineer Feb 17 21:51:23 why can't there be a button for that? Feb 17 21:51:43 select with mouse -> [road] and *voila* Feb 17 21:51:50 koen - Alternatively: select nothing; choose "Way"-tool; Add segments by clicking segments. Feb 17 21:52:08 heh, that's why I was talking about a easy client. It takes me hours to get something working. That sucks Feb 17 21:52:34 There's a qt based client out there. Feb 17 21:52:57 I helped fixing some bugs in it. Feb 17 21:53:34 But the real answer is: There is no good GUI paradigm for this thing, that fits all needs. Feb 17 21:54:56 Elrond: The client I like to see for openmoko is one with a minimum user interactions. Feb 17 21:55:48 stefan_schmidt - It will be hard. Feb 17 21:56:28 Elrond: I know, but we should at least try our best. Feb 17 21:56:38 Yep. Feb 17 21:57:32 What I fear a bit: More crap data in osm. I already am cleaning behind the guy, who did most of the "get the gps data" for my city. Feb 17 21:59:10 Elrond: Yeah, that right. Same problem for wikis. You need a critical mass from users acting as moderator and cleaning up the mess of others. Feb 17 21:59:32 The only real way to fix that is multiple users have to enter the same data before it gets validated. Feb 17 22:00:11 SpeedEvil: Of course one way, but also slows down the process. Feb 17 22:00:45 It's hard to moderate, really. Feb 17 22:01:24 * stefan_schmidt is away for the next hour fixing some stuff. Chatting takes to much time. :) Feb 17 22:01:41 And entering the data two times isn't easy either. Start out with gps coord accuracy; end with tagging freedom. ;) Feb 17 22:02:46 This is why map databases are expensive :) Feb 17 22:05:10 Elrond: so what happens after I made a 'way' and hit 'upload'? Feb 17 22:05:42 some map databases are free Feb 17 22:06:16 koen - It's put in the db. That's it. Feb 17 22:08:21 Elrond: what do I have to do to get it visible on http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html ? Feb 17 22:08:30 I got a question. Is it allowed to post screenshots from MacOS apps in order to user them as reference for the look and feel of the phone ? Feb 17 22:08:58 of course. Feb 17 22:09:22 ok thanks. I wasn't sure because of copyright stuff Feb 17 22:09:49 copyright doesn't do what you think it does :) Feb 17 22:10:03 koen - Depends on which layer (click the "+" in the upper right) you want to see it on. Feb 17 22:10:10 mapnik-layer: Wait two weeks. Feb 17 22:10:45 cjb, kk :) Feb 17 22:11:04 osmarender-layer: Give me the coords, and I'll give you a link, where you can request, that some kind soal somewhere in the world rerenders it. Feb 17 22:11:56 Alternatively: Wait a bit. ;) Feb 17 22:23:03 Elrond: is there an osm viewer that downloads osm's based on your currentpositions and makes a SVG out of it? Feb 17 22:23:23 preferably a SGVtiny SVG Feb 17 22:25:35 What is SGVtiny? Feb 17 22:25:53 I don't know of such a viewer. Feb 17 22:26:17 It could be hacked around osmarender4, which produces large svgs. ;) Feb 17 22:26:24 (but quite pretty.) Feb 17 22:27:19 svgtiny is a subset of svg Feb 17 22:27:36 Elrond: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/ Feb 17 22:28:03 "The first profile, SVG Tiny, is defined to be suitable for cellphones; the second profile, SVG Basic, is suitable for PDAs." Feb 17 22:28:41 Ahh. Feb 17 22:29:04 something like gpsdrive, but with osm maps Feb 17 22:29:42 osmarenders SVG is heavy, I think. It looks good in inkscape, but not that pretty in firefox. Feb 17 22:30:15 koen - I think, some navi-apps for linux are trying to get to osm. But I odon't know much about it. Feb 17 22:30:55 anyway, ZZZZZ time Feb 17 22:30:59 'night all Feb 17 22:31:04 Night koen. Feb 17 23:00:39 stefan_schmidt: *nod* commented on 197 Feb 17 23:01:56 mickeyl: thanks Feb 18 00:33:14 First xoo skin with buttons: Feb 18 00:33:16 http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/OpenMoko/neo1973-button-xoo-device.tar.bz2 Feb 18 00:33:30 Don't hurd me. I'm a dev no designer. :) Feb 18 01:21:00 i get this error while building openmoko using mokomakefile "uboot-mkimage: command not found" . Am i missing any package ? Feb 18 01:27:46 just grep for uboot-mkimage in openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/linux Feb 18 01:27:46 and subtitute it with full path Feb 18 02:32:49 morning Feb 18 02:37:39 rwhitby: morning Feb 18 02:52:56 any mokomakefile problems reported overnight? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Feb 18 02:59:57 2007